hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-15 WINELANDS 2 CT/00274 MALUSI MATHELELE PHILEMON QUMZA SHOT & KILLED https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56126&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/wineland/ct00274.htm DR ORR Good morning to you sir, thank you very much for coming here today. You’re going to speak about someone who was a member of your congregation. Shall I say that again, you’re going to speak to us today about someone who was a member of your congregation? REV QUMZA Yes. DR ORR And you’re here because his mother is to old and frail to be here, so you are representing the family, is that correct? REV QUMZA Yes, ma’am. DR ORR [indistinct] and his oupa, welcome to you sir. He’s going to support you as you give your evidence. Can I ask you to stand to take the oath please. PHILEMON QUMZA Duly sworn states DR ORR Thank you very much, I’ll hand you over to the Reverent who will facilitate your evidence. REV XUNDU Thank you Chairperson, Rev Qumza I can see [indistinct] which congregations do you come from? REV QUMZA I’m a Reverent. REV XUNDU Which congregation? REV QUMZA C.C.A.C. REV XUNDU Is that the elder of your church next to you? REV QUMZA No, he’s my neighbour. REV XUNDU Thank you, these people are in your church? REV QUMZA Yes, he was in my church - he was a member of my church. REV XUNDU According to this report we are told of how he - Malusi died. I wonder if you could briefly tell us what was happening in the township - what was the situation at the time. Could you briefly tell us please? REV QUMZA Thank you sir, I will. First of all I would like to say at the time here in Mbekweni I was from Thabanshu from - from a - I was under Bishop Ian Motega who stays in Xhoxho. When I left Mbekweni there was no unrest. People were one in spirit, they were fighting - they had the same aim. They were struggling to active freedom for their country. I left midyear and when I came back there was division - there were 2 organizations and people belonged to these opposing organizations. When we got to Mbekweni, the police - there were some police that were called INKATHA. There were soldiers - when you would enter the township it was very difficult because there were always roadblocks. That was the situations - when you would leave the rent office there would be tear gas every where. From the office to your house. REV XUNDU So you got to the location from Thabanshu and there was conflict between the 2 organizations? Some were PAC, AZAPO, AZANYU and then the UDF, is that so? REV QUMZA Yes, sir that is so. REV XUNDU And apparently the police were working with the PAC, AZAPO, AZANYU? REV QUMZA Yes, the police sided with the PAC, AZAPO, AZANYU. REV XUNDU Lets continue. Mathelele Malusi which organization did he belong to? REV QUMZA Mathelele Malusi was a person who was slightly mentally disturbed. He had - he belonged to no organization as such. REV XUNDU So that particular night, could you briefly tell us how Malusi got injured. REV QUMZA Let me just tell you briefly. We were going to have a meeting that we referred to as synod. We were preparing for a conference - because of the State of Emergency at Mbekweni you had to be home by 7 o’clock. You could not close either your front or your back door. You had to leave them opened - there is an organizations referred to as UDF. The police at the time were very busy running after our children. You had to leave an opening in the toilet so that the police could see where you are. We could not safe our children in our homes - they could not hide in our homes. REV XUNDU So what you are saying is that the police at that time had no respect for human life? REV QUMZA Yes, that is so …END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A… REV XUNDU [indistinct] evening of the incident? REV QUMZA We were preparing for the conference. I therefore had to go to a place called Boere Centre in Paarl. I went to Boere Centre - I first went to the Police Station to ask for a book. I asked for a document so that people could attend the conference and not be turned away by the police and the soldiers. We could not go to church, it our people were going to church, tear gas was thrown in. So went to ask for special permission, I went to the Police Station, the Police Station sent to the Magistrate at Boere Centre. I went to the Magistrate at Boere Centre - this - his office is - is on the Main Street. I got this document that I needed, I then came back with the document. I asked myself that what should I do with this document. Then they said that I must keep it with me all the time. The Police Commander who will be handling the soldiers, I would know later because they would inform me later. REV XUNDU Lets go back to the incident where Malusi was killed. REV QUMZA The conference had not started, we were preparing for the conference. When I came back I was out casted by the police that were called INKATHA. I - I showed him the - the document, he then said he would speak to his team and that was that. I then went to fetch members of my congregation to take them to church to the afternoon serves. We were busy training people - we’re preparing them for their positions in church. When we came back on the Sunday, as I had taken people home I then took Mathelele Malusi to the home and as he got out of the car there were police - there were police in the church yard. I was on the tar road, as I was on the road tear gas emanated - tear gas emanated from the church yard towards us. Then there is an area within the yard that called [indistinct] . The police were then really throwing tear gas all over. As Malusi went inside the church and I was going into the car, tear gas got even worse. I was taking everybody home - it was damaging our eyes. I was rushing to - rushing delivering people at their homes. When I came back I realized that as this man entered the house he was shot by a police - a Zulu policeman. REV XUNDU Is this the hostel? REV QUMZA Yes, this is the hostel where he lived. REV XUNDU Had he alighted from you car? REV QUMZA Yes, he’d alighted from my car. REV XUNDU According to your report, the police did not want anyone to help Malusi. REV QUMZA Yes, it is so. He fell on the passageway and as he fell on the passageway - as I asked the people that stayed at the hostel - they were told that they should stay put, they should not move. Everyone around Malusi was told not to move - not to help at all. REV XUNDU Do you know any names of these INKATHA Police? REV QUMZA As the situation was it was impossible to identify the police. As the police are numbered, I have got their specific numbers, I could not even identify this. He was shot at half past 8. He stayed there in that condition the whole night until the next morning half past 11 when a van - a police van came to fetch him at 11:30 the next day. He had died by then. We could not even look at the wound as he was laying on [indistinct] REV XUNDU How old was Malusi? REV QUMZA He was pretty young at the time. I should estimate that he was 22 years of age. REV XUNDU Was he working? REV QUMZA Yes, we had gotten him a job in a place called Klapmuts Concrete. REV XUNDU How long had he been working? REV QUMZA It was not to long but it was a while. REV XUNDU Was he married? REV QUMZA He was still dependent on his mother. REV XUNDU Did he have children? REV QUMZA He was still dependent on his mother, he did not have - he did not children. He was working towards acquiring a wife. REV XUNDU Is the mother still alive? REV QUMZA Yes, the mother’s still alive. REV XUNDU What - what is his mother’s request as his son has passed away? REV QUMZA I hurt a lot for the mother. He was working for his mother and he was - he got shot. There was no court case, just to hear exactly what went on. We wherefore had to gather as Capetonians - we have an organization called [indistinct] to help each other bury members of our families. We therefore helped each other to bury Malusi. Capetonians therefore could not go to Mbekweni and people from Mbekweni to Cape Town. We had to clean our bank accounts so as to help Malusi’s mother. Malusi’s mother was in deep pain - weeping. If the police could help us because we were struggling. These police - it is as a result of these police that I had no money to continue with my education. It is only now that I continue with my education. Therefore if I could get some sort of reparation to - to help me. REV XUNDU So your request as a Reverent - you spent money - you spent money on Malusi therefore you need to be helped in a monetary way as well. REV QUMZA Secondly I will ask that Malusi’s mother would be helped. This was his - this was her youngest son. Therefore as an elderly person if her heart somehow be helped - if the Truth Commission could help her as she has lost her son. REV XUNDU Had - did Malusi not have any rights at his workplace? REV QUMZA We went to his workplace, there was no back pay there. He only earned for the hours that he worked for. We went to try to get an employment card for Malusi - the card we got stated that Malusi is dead - his employment card is also dead. REV XUNDU Could you give us the name of the firm that employed him because we need to investigate. REV QUMZA I beg your pardon. REV XUNDU Could you give us the address of Malusi’s ex-employers so that we could investigate if there is - there’s any money that is due to Malusi. We would investigate should you give us the address. REV QUMZA I will give you the address. REV XUNDU Is there a tombstone or a stone that commemorates Malusi? REV QUMZA There is nothing to commemorate Malusi. My elder brother is paralyzed - his leg is paralyzed. His one eye is blind therefore we emptied our pockets and just took a piece of wood and wrote his name on it. REV XUNDU Maybe you would have a request for his tombstone. REV QUMZA I would be very glad that we get a tombstone for Malusi so that even his siblings would see the tombstone. REV XUNDU I will give you back to the - Mr Chairperson but I want to thank you for having come here to give your testimony. I realized that the Reverend’s in this area played a big roll in this struggle. The effort that Christians took in this area is great although the church would make mistakes now and again but there are those churches who stand together with the people of the community in order to help. It is good to have churches that are trustworthy in the community, thank you. REV QUMZA Thank you very much. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Reverent a number of questions I’d like to ask. Firstly you told us that your a minister of the C.C.A.C - what does that stand for? REV QUMZA Christian Catholic Church in [indistinct] UNKNOWN Christian Catholic Church [indistinct] UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Thank you very much, the second questions. Can you remember the date of this happening when Malusi was shot? REV QUMZA I don’t remember the date exactly, I remember the month. According to our church regulations when we would go towards the 10th of October and it was a public in the previous regime. We would them take the Thursday and make it a long week-end. As [indistinct] would be on public holiday we would them take the long week-end and use it to discuss the issues of our church. I don’t remember the date particularly. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER [indistinct] long week-end is on the 10th of October 1986. That will help us a lot. Another question which you said that nobody was allowed to help Malusi - he was shot and he was there - laying there and the police allowed nobody to help him. And only at 11 o’clock the next morning you were able to go to him. Is it possible that he - that he could have lived if you were able to help him directly - to take him with an ambulance to the hospital or was he killed on ...[intervention] REV QUMZA If Malusi had been helped - if an ambulance at leased would have come or if we were allowed to take him in our cars and take him to hospital. As Tygerberg has some doctors that I know personally, perhaps Malusi would still be alive to this day. There are people that worked until 12 o’clock got there, he was still alive - he was still struggling. The hospital would definitely have been able to help him somehow. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER [indistinct] his body? REV QUMZA He was shot at the back of his neck. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER This question has to do with his old mother who’s very infirm, who can not attend today. Who’s looking after the mother at the moment? REV QUMZA As we speak here the mother is at home. She is alive today because we feed her, we give her food now and again. Her husband - she does not belong to my church. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER [indistinct] he helps her? REV QUMZA No the husband is passed away. She’s the only one who’s still alive at home. She gets a pension. She also gets something from her vegetation, now and again we also give her money. Sometime she would write to us and ask for money, we would give her the money should we have it. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER [indistinct] what the pension is, how much money she receives every month. REV QUMZA I’d be lying if I said I knew, I don’t know sir, I don’t know at all. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Those were my questions. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson, Reverent just one issue. Why did the community refer to this group of policemen as INKATHA? REV QUMZA These police came from Durban, they had come [indistinct] Allandale next to the Paarl Prison. They call it Allandale, it was a huge camp with soldiers as well. These are not Capetonian police or PE or Queenstown. You could even hear the accent, there’s a difference. They spoke Zulu, you could easily determine and distinguish that they’re not from here. They would identify themselves as Gutsha Buthelesi’s police - the INKATHA. We excepted the truth that they give to us, when I got to Queenstown and I identify myself as an ANC member people are going to refer to me as an ANC member, people are not going to dispute that. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] to say that if appears as if this was a group of police officers who were brought in especially from elsewhere to deal with the community here in Paarl, particularly Mbekweni? REV QUMZA That is a big truth, they are the cause of the slaughter of many people here in Paarl. MS GOBODO Than you Mr Chairman, thank you Denzil, thank you Reverent. Reverent if you had not come here, we would not have heard about Mathelele and his death. As I sit here and listen to your testimony - when you started your testimony I was saying to myself it is so good that people are empathetic towards others such that they would help the other people to appoint where you come to the Commission. But in the middle of your testimony I was shocked when you said you want reparation for having help this man. I then get quite confused because at a Christian example is that one helps another person without expecting anything back. I then wonder what kind of example are you giving us that you - you do such a good deed and then you want to be paid back for that deed. But we thank you for that because these are difficult times. It goes to show that life is tough, Ubunto?? from the heart is no longer there. You do a good deed only to be paid back, it shows that life is tough for our people. I criticize you but constructively sir, the Commission is not - unfortunately - is not here to pay back for the good deeds that people did a while back. The pains of the people that were victims and their losses after the - the previous unrest. The Commission therefore will endeavor to help Malusi’s mother. It will not be able to help you - to pay you back for the good deeds towards Malusi’s mother, but we do thank you sir. If you had not come, we would not have been able to hear of Malusi’s death. We will investigate everything and we will ask you with reverence to pass on the message to Malusi’s mother. Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. REV QUMZA The reason why I spoke like this - I spoke like this because I was reveling my heart and I was putting my feelings and desires at the table openly, thank you very much. MS GOBODO I’ve been asked to apologize again for the lack of the translating devices - the headphones in the room. We do hope that we - we trust that you can take seriously the promise that was made yesterday that we’ll get additional headphones. We really apologize, it’s going to be very difficult to get a mixed audience in the long term if we cannot get the proper translating - I mean sufficient headphones in - at these hearings. And also I would welcome the group from the Journalism department at Stellenbosch University. Welcome and hopefully you would be able to mingle with the - with the journalist who are covering the events. We trust that you can meet some of them if you need to.