hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-15 WINELANDS 2 CT/00431 VIVIAN STANLEY MATTHEE MARIA CAROLLISEN [mother] SHOT & KILLED https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56131&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/wineland/ct00431.htm MS GOBODO And we would like give a very special welcome to the girl from Sense Ci - Sense Ci Prints in Cape Town. A very warm welcome to you all, and thank you Vivian - Vivian Harbour arranged for them to come. Thanks Vivian for making it possible for these girls to come. We welcome you very much. We also would like to welcome Mr Hanny from Stellenbosch University and welcome to you all today. Wendy is going to give a few housekeeping announcements, thanks Wendy. DR ORR MS GOBODO Thank you very much. I would like to introduce the panel to you, but before I do I just want to quickly welcome again the group of interns, Masters Clinical Interns from Stellenbosch University. Thank you for coming again. On my extreme left we have Rev Nxhebise Xundu who comes from the Eastern Cape, has generously afforded his time to come and assist us here. On my needed left we have Dr Wendy Orr. Wendy has the office in Cape Town, our Truth Commission office in Cape Town. And finally we have Adv Denzil Potgieter who is a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and also a Commissioner based in the Cape Town office, thank you. We will start this morning by calling upon Maria Carollisen, could the briefer bring her up please. DR ORR MARIA CAROLLISEN Duly sworn states DR ORR Thank you very much, Prof Piet Meiring will now lead your evidence. PROF MEIRING Good morning Ms Carollisen, it is very nice to have you here this morning. Could we please speak Afrikaans to each other. MS CAROLLISEN Yes, we may. PROF MEIRING Are you here from Paarl? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, I am from Paarl. PROF MEIRING MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING Would you like her to join you on the stage? MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING Could I please ask you to come a bit closer to the microphone so that we can hear you a bit better. Can you hear me clearly? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, I can. PROF MEIRING I would like to hear about your family. Was Vivian your only child or did you have other children as well? MS CAROLLISEN Vivian Matthee was my pre-marital child. PROF MEIRING Would you like to then tell us just in your own words exactly what happened in Lesotho, just so - that you can tell us about Vivian as well. What kind of person he was and how he was involved in politics and what happened in Lesotho. MS CAROLLISEN Vivian Matthee was a boy who was a member of the ANC for years. And he did that work because he saw so many things - he saw a lot of wrong and he was involved in the ANC and he was a boy who had always worked. And in 1985 he was shot but in 1980 - since 1991 he had been gone and we had never seen him. And he always worked outside but in 1985 we received the tidings that he had been shot in Lesotho and that is when I went there to go and identify his body in Lesotho. He was a well educated boy, for years he had been at University and then he left for Lesotho and he did all the work that he did for the ANC. And I would just want to say that I would like to know what happened there - what happened to him. PROF MEIRING MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING Were you ever in contact with him? MS CAROLLISEN No never. PROF MEIRING And then you received the heartbreaking news that he had been shot? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, that he had been shot. PROF MEIRING Who brought you the news? MS CAROLLISEN It was - we got the news from people in Mbekweni. PROF MEIRING And then you went to Lesotho by car? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, we went by car. PROF MEIRING And then did you go to Masero? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, we went to Masero. PROF MEIRING And did you go to the Police Mortuary there and saw the different bodies of people who had been shot? MS CAROLLISEN There were 9 all together that had been shot and I had to go and identify him. PROF MEIRING Did you identify any of the other people that were there? MS CAROLLISEN No, only my son. PROF MEIRING And in the written statement which we received it says that was also a Leon Meyer who was shot on that day but he did not die immediately so he could tell you a bit of what happened. MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING Can you remember what - what they told you - what Leon told you what happened on the day that they shot - they were shot? MS CAROLLISEN The only one that was alive was Leon at the time and he could still say something because people came to the house and he could still say something. He says what he saw while lying on his back was that there were people who were smeared black and he could see that they were whites. But all 9 was shot dead - Vivian was shot on the left hand side of his head and he said that Vivian died immediately. Leon Meyer was the only one who was still alive at the time and he said that he remembered seeing people that was smeared black and that they were whites. PROF MEIRING Do you have any information on who those people were, where they were from, who had sent them or anything? MS CAROLLISEN Because all 9 of them was shot dead. PROF MEIRING And after you had identified your son, was then buried in Masero? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, we remained behind until he was buried on the Sunday because it was an open air burial. All 9 of them were buried on that Sunday. PROF MEIRING Who took responsibility for the funeral. MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING Just to interrupt you for a minute, somebody has come and joined you. Could you just tell us who it is? MS CAROLLISEN This is Ouma and Vivian grew up by her. She is Caroline Matthee. PROF MEIRING Ms Matthee I would like to welcome you and thank you for having come. Could I just put a few questions to you just to get clarity on this whole picture. I would like to know in the first place the - if there was ever an investigation into this matter after this incident. Whether the police investigated it here in South Africa or whether the Lesotho Police investigated it. MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING MS CAROLLISEN It was on the 19th on a Friday because we received the news the Saturday. PROF MEIRING And the Sunday you left. Could you remember on which day the funeral was? MS CAROLLISEN A week later - it was a week later, I cannot say whether it was the 27th , I think it was the 27th of December or so. It was a while later because Vivian was still there for a whole week after he had been shot. Because I still had to go and get his birth certificate there and because he was - he was - he had a - an alias he was working under another name. PROF MEIRING MS CAROLLISEN We had to deal with it because myself and ouma have always been together and there was nobody else. Therefore I so - we had to go and satisfy ourselves. PROF MEIRING You mentioned that there was a group of people that was shot that day in Lesotho - I think you mentioned 9 people, is that correct? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, there were 9 people. PROF MEIRING Are some of them also going to come to the Truth Commission - their families are they also going to come forward with the matter? MS CAROLLISEN PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. Ms Chairperson those are the questions. MS GOBODO Thank you Piet and Maria. I will hand over to the panel, if anyone has anything to say, Denzil thank you. ADV POTGIETER Is it Miss or Me Carollisen? MS CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER Good morning once again. I would just like to ask you, your son when did he leave the country - when did he join the ANC? MS CAROLLISEN He left home in 1981. ADV POTGIETER So you are not sure whether he left the country immediately or not. MS CAROLLISEN I cannot say where he was but he was never at home. He had - he was just away from home all the time. ADV POTGIETER And by 1981 had he completed his studies at the University? MS CAROLLISEN Yes, that is the year in which he completed his studies. ADV POTGIETER Is that when he got his degree? MS CAROLLISEN Yes. ADV POTGIETER He never worked here? MS CAROLLISEN No, he went directly into the ANC work. ADV POTGIETER MS CAROLLISEN Yes. ADV POTGIETER MS CAROLLISEN When we got to Lesotho they said - they mentioned a lot of different names. They said they do not know him as Vivian Matthee. ADV POTGIETER Can you remember any of the names that they used to identify him? MS CAROLLISEN They mentioned several names but I cannot remember any specific name. They mentioned something like Trevor and Darries and a lot of different names, but I - they did not specifically give us much information on those names. ADV POTGIETER Because our Investigative Unit has started investigating the matter after we received the statement from you and as you said earlier - as you understood it appears as though this case in which your son was killed was an act committed by the members of the Vlakplaas Police Unit. And where they - the Police Officers from Vlakplaas killed 9 ANC people there. So it seems as though that could be the case where your son was killed. But it would help us if we could establish what his - what his alias - what his - his other name was that he was using. The 2 names which we have - which are revered to there are Leon Meyer - his nickname was Joel, his MK name was Joel and then Themba Hector and seemingly these 2 people were in the same house as the one where your son was shot. And it seems as if they had secret document dealt with that incident, so that - we already have that information and we also have a statement from a Lieutenant from the Security Police - Leon Riddenburg which also deals with this incident. So we have those 3 sources of information and the matter is still being attended to but at this point in time it seems as though it was a Vlakplaas - an act committed by the Vlakplaas group. But thus far that is the only information we have but we will sure to keep you enlightened of anything else that we might discover as we proceed to investigate. Thank you very much Madam. MS GOBODO It must have been a very difficult 11 years for her to deal with the passing. That is a bit of comfort because though the linking of all that material we can eventually come up with what the true story is about what happened to these people who died across the borders was. I wish to thank you very much but I wish to also extend a challenge to us that we would like you one day to be able say thank you to the Truth Commission for having found out the truth about what happened, thank you.