hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-14 WINELANDS 1 CT/00434 ADRI AARON FAAS ALEXANDER FAAS, CAPTAIN PETER JOHN CLAYTON SHOT & KILLED https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56133&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/wineland/ct00434.htm DR ORR Welcome to you Mr Faas and to you Louisa, thank you for coming here today to tell us your story. Mr Faas could you stand to take the oath - the affirmation. ALEXANDER FAAS Affirmed for truth DR ORR ADV POTGIETER Thank you Wendy, Mr Faas good afternoon and Ms Faas good afternoon to you to. A hearty word of welcome to you here, your evidence is related to the shooting incident in which your son, Adri Faas, was shot and killed by a policeman on the 28th of August 1985. Perhaps tell us a little bit more about your son, how old was he when he died? MR FAAS He was 18 old, he was at University of the Western Cape. He was a first year at the University. ADV POTGIETER What course was he doing? MR FAAS He was doing Law, he wanted to become a lawyer. ADV POTGIETER And what was his progress like? MR FAAS He was doing very well, he attended University as from the beginning of 1985. ADV POTGIETER So his prospects were excellent, the prospects of his studies? MR FAAS No he had non - no problems with that what so ever. ADV POTGIETER Then the 28th of August 1985 came, that was a stage when there was turmoil in Paarl and what happened on that specific day and how did it happen that he was shot and died? MR FAAS Father, please give me some money, I would to bioscope. I had money but I said: I said: And he said: That night I asked my wife - it was about past 10 that evening - and I asked when was he coming home and she said no if he did not come home, he was going to sleep with Godfrey Hendricks. If it was to late he usually slept there, I accepted that because a mother knows her children. That morning I got up, she had already left for work. When I left the house, I heard the telephone and somebody said: Alex is that you. And a voice said: Your son was killed last night, he was shot dead. Having arrived there I saw the blood and I realized what had happened. And I said I was going to the police station. On my way to the police station, all the people were standing outside the police station and I asked who had shot my child. It was Boy Reed and Goldy Simon, Appolis and other policemen whom I knew because they all belonged to my church. And they said the boers had killed your child, Mr Faas. This was - I felt very sorry about this but as we were walking away, two white policemen came there and I asked them: Please sir, who had shot my child? And the one Constable said: I am Captain Coetzee and this is Lieutenant Oosthuizen. What broke my heart is that I never could think that white people will also belong to a church - that they could behave like that and this Oosthuizen took his finger and pointed on his chest and said: I killed your child And my heart dropped into my shoes. I felt so sad, I was at a lost for words and he said: You - you must go and ask your friends what he did, he carried the drum with the fire in it and he was wearing a white sweater and that is why I had shot him. And this man with him said: You had shot a wrong man, you did not shoot the one with the white sweater, you shot the other one. And Captain Coetzee said: Inside a Captain Daniels was sitting at a desk. He was a very pompous man. He was sitting there, the doors were open and all the policemen was standing there to listen to what we were saying. What was really shocking is that this coloured detective stood up and he put his shirt into his trousers and said: Alex, is Adri Faas your child, I could not think that you could afford a child to attend University. Captain Daniels rather read this rule because you should not be here and when you leave close the door behind you. He left, he closed the door and after that we held our conversation. I appreciate what Peters did for me. He always encouraged me and he told me that I appreciate what you said, nobody would have behaved like you would have done. I told you when the funeral would be held and he said that he will arrange everything. When I came home, I arranged the funeral for that Tuesday. I told the minister that I am going to hold the funeral on the Saturday and the minister said: Half past 10 that morning, when he arrived at my house he said that the funeral will go down Langtana Street, Paulus Street, Klein Drakenstein Street, passed the police station and then to the hall and then right down Van der Stell Street and then back into Langenhoven Street and the we will go to the grave yard. And I asked: and I left him standing outside And I said: How can you say that? And you said: Now I understand your circumstances, you should be on the relationship community. You are part of the NP conspiracy. And I said: And on that Wednesday I met him and Peter said if you want to talk to me about the funeral, I have a house you can come to my house. After 15 minutes he came back and we spoke and I told him everything, how it is - it was from Paarl - and why I did not want to go down Langenhoven Street because there was a farm house and next to that there were guava orchid and near that most of the policemen and detectives lived. And also the commanding officer lived there and he was actually their [indistinct] because I painted that church, I know him, I great him in the mornings. I say: Good morning Reverent. Shoot me, I am at peace with this whole thing. Because by then I was bitter. CHAIRPERSON Order please. MR FAAS It was heartbreaking for me to think that the NG Mother Church could cast us as the NG Daughter Church. The Dutch Reformed Church could cast us aside like dogs, even their priests they are as guilty for their prejudice and one day I got a tape for Allen Boesak when he was in Belhar. What do you want here, you husband and wife, go out. And the advocate said to him: So that when we leave here we can say truly there is God and I would like to say I have a son that left school in 1987. He tried to apply to be a prison warden, a policeman, they would not except him - a traffic warden. He is independent - he as my daughter, she is a matriculant. I retired out of the building trade last year as a painter, I receive a mere R460.00 per month and I have got to support my children. And until - when God blesses me with a few odd jobs, I get a bit of an extra income. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Mr Faas, can I just ask you a few questions about this incident itself. There was an inquest at the Paarl Magistrates Court to - with regards to the death - this death which was held on the 17th of February 1986 with residing officer Magistrate JHA Rossouw. His one University friend was with him and that was Godfrey Hendricks and Isaac Fisher and also Precilla Jacobs and all of them submitted statements to the effect that your son was not involved in any stone throwing or riotous incident but he was sitting looking at a drum which was burning in the road and that the evidence heard from amongst others the Lieutenant who acknowledged that your son had run away when we wanted to shoot and that the eventual finding of the court on the 19th of February - two days after the - the matter was heard in February [indistinct] was to the effect that no one was - could be held responsible for the death of your son and that there was no - there was no offense - there was no criminal offense and no one could be charged as such, is that so? MR FAAS Yes ADV POTGIETER MR FAAS ADV POTGIETER That is all I wanted to say to - all I wanted to mention to you, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Could we please have silence, Mr Faas we thank you that after all this pain and suffering you could have - God could have blessed you and you could have held onto your faith. Thank you very much. DR ORR Captain Clayton thank you very much for being here this afternoon. This really is quite a momentous occasion to have someone from what was then the South African Police and is now the South African Police Service to come and give corroborative evidence. It really does mean a great deal. Would you like to take the oath or the affirmation? CAPT CLAYTON The oath. DR ORR Will you stand to take that? PETER JOHN CLAYTON Duly sworn states DR ORR Thank you very much, Denzil Potgieter is going to lead your evidence. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Wendy, Captain would you like to give your testimony in English or in Afrikaans? CAPT CLAYTON Afrikaans please. ADV POTGIETER You are a captain in the South African Police Service? CAPT CLAYTON ADV POTGIETER Where are you stationed? CAPT CLAYTON In Paarl East. ADV POTGIETER You were also in the service of the Police Force in 1985, more specifically the 28th of August 1985. Where were you stationed? CAPT CLAYTON In Paarl East. ADV POTGIETER What was your rank back them? CAPT CLAYTON I was a Warrant Officer. ADV POTGIETER Are you familiar with the incident of Adri Faas - the one about which Mr Faas just gave evidence? CAPT CLAYTON Yes ADV POTGIETER We know that this shooting incident took place on the 28th of August 1985. Were you on duty that day? CAPT CLAYTON Yes ADV POTGIETER Can you please tell us what you saw, that happened that day? CAPT CLAYTON You people take to long, I am going to shoot a hot-not tonight. Thereafter they left and I think approximately 3 minutes later - 3 minutes at the most the distance - from the distance where the police station was and where the diseased was laying it was approximately 300 meters and I heard them asking Wessels to come there and I went out of curiosity to see what was happening there. And Sergeant Ross was my vehicle driver and when we got to the scene somebody shouted cause: Just fuck off from here. ADV POTGIETER There was an inquest in connection with the shooting incident, did you know anything about that? CAPT CLAYTON Definitely not. ADV POTGIETER Were you ever approached by the police? CAPT CLAYTON Not at all. ADV POTGIETER For a statement or anything? CAPT CLAYTON Not at all. ADV POTGIETER This Lieutenant Colonel Oosthuizen, where was he stationed at the time?CAPT CLAYTON: He was at the Detective Branch in Paarl. ADV POTGIETER According to what he said - the actions which he made it appears as though he is a trigger-happy person because he said that tonight he was shooting somebody. CAPT CLAYTON Absolutely ADV POTGIETER And he was - he - he took out a - a private firearm - a personal firearm. It was not a police issue, it was - it was a personal firearm. CAPT CLAYTON I cannot say with certainty that it was his personal weapon but what I can say is that it was not a police issue. ADV POTGIETER As it an ordinary situation that - was it common practice that somebody could come on duty with a - with a shotgun? CAPT CLAYTON No as far as I know it was never allowed. ADV POTGIETER And another aspect is that it was also common cause in the inquest that his firearm was with - loaded with SSG bullets which are - and how do SSG bullets compare to the bullets used by police? CAPT CLAYTON The smaller one - the bird shot is very tiny. The SSG is the biggest one that can cause death. Bird shot does not cause death unless you are - you shoot the person at close range. SSG can kill you from a distance because it is the biggest type of bullet. ADV POTGIETER And is this SSG the most dangerous type of bullet that can be used in a shotgun? CAPT CLAYTON Yes ADV POTGIETER And can a person then assume that this kind of information would be - or this - a policeman who was at the rank of a Lieutenant would know about the dangers of a SSG bullet? CAPT CLAYTON Yes you are trained accordingly. ADV POTGIETER Is there anything else you would like to add to your evidence just before I conclude? CAPT CLAYTON ADV POTGIETER So that seamed strange to you the little scene that you saw there with the stone? CAPT CLAYTON Yes ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Captain for your evidence. CHAIRPERSON Pumla Gobodo MS GOBODO CAPT CLAYTON I would say that because the place was like a - it was - every year there were specific places and with specific reference to Klein Drakenstein it - they were named in police language, it was in front of the bioscope and near Maco, which is a fast food place where the deceased was. These were focal points where there were normally problems. MS GOBODO CAPT CLAYTON What usually happened there was that tires would burnt, stones would be packed in the street, vehicles would be stoned but usually we would cut off the vehicles and redirect them along different routs. So that there were - police vehicles would patrol Klein Drakenstein Road and others would go around the back. For example where there was one - where the water tank was and also at the side of Spesbona, we would patrol there. And also blockade the streets on Van Riebeeck Road and Klein Drakenstein Road and also near the swimming-pool, just sort of prevent further problems. That was basically what I - myself and my unit did. MS GOBODO One last question. Could you describe to us also how the riot squad operated. Where - where was the main operation base and where was it commandeered, can you just give us a picture of how that was structured? CAPT CLAYTON MS GOBODO Thank you, my colleague Denzil has asked me to found out from you it you know what happened to Lieutenant Oosthuizen? CAPT CLAYTON I think he has retired. CHAIRPERSON We admire your bravery and your courage and I think one would have said that one of the witnesses - what one of the witnesses said was that they think that the policemen who shot these people had a firearm like - like this was used in this case people would have thought they were - they were lying. And we appreciate that you have come here, to come and affirm what Mr Faas has said. We - our appreciation is even more so because we are trying to form a new system with our police but the relationships between the police and the community so that that could also change. And we would like to express our gratitude towards you for having taken the [indistinct] to advance this process. We - we are very grateful and - and we hope that one day we will see you Commissioner CAPT CLAYTON I would like to just put one last point as why I am doing this - my reason is because it has bugged me ever since that day and every time I see Mr Faas he reminds me there - about that. I saw him in CAN two weeks ago and I looked and I hesitated for two minutes whether I should speak to him or not and I decided I will speak to him. And I thought this is the best way in which way to do it, to do it here and I would also like to say to you that up until 1987 I compiled a report in which I asked certain - for certain things that are taking place. My report is dated the 20th of February 1987 where I named a few things as to how the police force should be and that such things should happen - like what was happening today and who was going to protect who, thank you.