hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-14 WINELANDS 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56134&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/wineland/ct00438.htm CASE NO: CT/00438 VICTIM: RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN NATURE OF VIOLENCE: SHOT & KILLED TESTIMONY BY: RICHARD CAROLLISEN [brother] SANDRA MESSIAS [girlfriend] DR ORR [indistinct] then I will ask both of you to take the oath, Mr Carollisen would you stand first. RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN Duly sworn states SANDRA MESSIAS Duly sworn states DR ORR ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Wendy, good morning Mr Carollisen. MR CAROLLISEN Good morning ADV POTGIETER And you to Ms Messias - is it Messeas or Messias. MS MESSIAS ADV POTGIETER MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER Would you like to tell us what happened on this particular day, perhaps you would give us the specific date as well on which it happened. MR CAROLLISEN It was on the 8th of September 1976, on that day - as in the days prior to that - there was unrest in the aria Cloetesville where we lived in Stellenbosch. When I came to the bathroom - this is the bathroom next door, when I came out of the bathroom next door - they were dragging him out like an animal. And another policeman in camouflage shouted to me - quite a few of the other policemen were congratulating him oh that was an excellent shot and congratulations. And we always teased her very gently because we were always very fair in our community and Ron was also - always as dark as my father and we always teased her very lightheartedly about her favoring Ron, because he looked like my father. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, Mr Carollisen that you - for having told us this apparently painful story. Could I just ask - put a few questions to you just for the sake of clarity on the situation. Your brother was working at that stage, is that right? MR CAROLLISEN Yes. ADV POTGIETER Where was he working? MR CAROLLISEN He was a carpenter by trade, he was actually in his finale year of apprenticeship as a carpenter, so he was going to take employment in Cape Town. ADV POTGIETER So on that day he was from work and he was on his way home, from work when the shooting incident took place? MR CAROLLISEN Yes. ADV POTGIETER How old was he when the incident took place in 1976? MR CAROLLISEN He was 23 years old. ADV POTGIETER 23 years old and were there any - apart from yourself you had two more brothers. Are you then four brothers all together? MR CAROLLISEN As I said we were a large family. There was one older brother who was married already and then there were two younger brothers at home and a sister. ADV POTGIETER So was Ron the oldest child who was still at home? MR CAROLLISEN Yes. ADV POTGIETER And you say that at the time he was - he was the breadwinner in the family? MR CAROLLISEN Yes, mainly because as I said my father had been declared terminally ill and he could not work anymore. And my mother had a heart problem and hence it was very difficult. Ron - I owe a lot of thank to Ron because he made it possible for me to study to a certain extent. ADV POTGIETER What do you do today? MR CAROLLISEN I am a teacher, that is my profession. ADV POTGIETER And what about the other children, are they also more or less on - in a good way? MR CAROLLISEN We would give the police free access because all they would do was they would come and bang down our doors and knock on our windows and we just decided that it - there was no point. ADV POTGIETER And that was the situation with your other brothers, how involved was Ron in politics? MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER With regards to the incident itself - the shooting incident, I - do I understand you correctly in saying that you and Ron were looking for shelter from the shooting? MR CAROLLISEN Yes, at the time there was a lot of shooting going on and I said to Ron: My brother these people are not playing games here today. They are shooting for real. Let us - let us get out of the way. And at that stage the shooting was taking between 25 and 50 meters ahead of us in the direction in which we were going. And I still said to him: Come let us go threw the flats. ADV POTGIETER And you went in to one flat and he went in to another, but the flat into which he went belonged to a policeman? MR CAROLLISEN Yes, that was his unfortunate chose. ADV POTGIETER And the person in that flat then called another policeman? MR CAROLLISEN Yes ADV POTGIETER And he was then shot dead in that house in the bathroom? MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER And if I understand your evidence correctly you were on your way home. You were not involve in any illegal activity at the time? MR CAROLLISEN Yes sir, I am coming out please do not shoot. ADV POTGIETER So one can assume that he was unarmed, he did not have any knifes or any weapons on him at the time? MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER And on - at the time of the [indistinct] what explanation did this Van Zyl give for the shooting, why did say why did he shoot him? MR CAROLLISEN His evidence was to the effect that Ron struggled with him and tried to overpower him and Ron was to strong for him. And that was impossible because Ron was tinier than I - he was smaller than I am and he was a big person - he was far bigger than ...[intervention] ADV POTGIETER So he alleged that he was doing it in self defense? MR CAROLLISEN Yes, he said that he was - he shot out of necessity. ADV POTGIETER And the court found that he could not be held responsible for the death of Ron? MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER Did the family try and institute a civil claim or try and consult with an attorney? MR CAROLLISEN No, as I said my father was terminally ill at that stage and it - our funds dried up so to speak. I was a student and I think that the illness effected my father, it drained him of all his energy. He did not have the willpower or the energy to go forth with this. ADV POTGIETER Mr Carollisen just lastly in conclusion. There are certain requests that you would like to put to this Commission. MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER Are there any other requests? MR CAROLLISEN No. ADV POTGIETER What is the situation with regards to the media? MR CAROLLISEN Yes, this is still one of the things that hurts me the most. We have the most influential media which you can think of and it was applied wrongly back then. I think that there was one particular newspaper that own us a the Carollisen family an explanation and - or an apology and that is the Burger which named my brother a trouble maker and I cannot see how the Burger could have had the audacity to call my brother a trouble maker. ADV POTGIETER In which context was that put because they never called the actual trouble makers here in South Africa such, they actually praised those people so the Burger published a report after the incident where the labeled your brother a trouble maker? MR CAROLLISEN ADV POTGIETER And was that given as the explanation as to why he was shot? MR CAROLLISEN Yes, and I feel that if we would like a healthy South Africa, then we should have a healthy media. A media which firmly searches for the truth and not gives its own interpretation of what it believes the truth to be. And I feel that the Burger owes our family an apology. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Mr Carollisen. I am going to ask you to move the microphone over to Ms Messias and then we will hear what she has to say, if she would like to add anything. MS MESSIAS ADV POTGIETER What is his name? MS MESSIAS His name is also Ronald. ADV POTGIETER Is there anything else you which to add, is that all you want to say? Thank you very much, thank you very much Mr Carollisen, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Rev Xundu, thank ...[intervention] REV XUNDU [indistinct] Richard, if you remember the name of the Magistrate who was presiding. MR CAROLLISEN REV XUNDU Also do you know who owned the flat into which your brother [indistinct] MR CAROLLISEN It was a municipal - the flat belonged to the municipality but ...[intervention] REV XUNDU Do you know who rented the flat? MR CAROLLISEN It was a Constable Isaacks. REV XUNDU Who actually called the police, was it the wife of - who called the police? MR CAROLLISEN REV XUNDU Where is Van Zyl now, do you know? MR CAROLLISEN Sorry. REV XUNDU Where is Van Zyl now? MR CAROLLISEN CHAIRPERSON Pumla Gobodo MS GOBODO And I want to address my questions to Richard, on the day that your brother died you were with him? MR CAROLLISEN Yes. MS GOBODO Were you often with your brother in the evening? MR CAROLLISEN Ja, it - for me - maybe it was more difficult for me because he was like a for - many people I can still remember some incidents were shopkeepers would call us in and tell us, give us some sweets because they thought we were twins. In actual fact it was a nice gave for us to play because people believed that we were twins. MS GOBODO So you were also friends with your brother? MR CAROLLISEN Ja, we were - we were inseparable, we were always together. MS GOBODO Richard, I just want you to tell us a little bit about how you remember the death of your brother. MR CAROLLISEN rugby, he was - we were both - we played center together. Now suddenly I had - I gave up rugby because we - we had such good understanding. MS GOBODO MR CAROLLISEN MS GOBODO MR CAROLLISEN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON The story is to a grate deal unbelievable. When you say there he was in the bathroom, he came out, his hands were in the air and then still he was shot. There are many people who will say it cannot be the truth and we will have to establish what had happened exactly. And to establish why - now why would you come here and tell lie and we wish to say to you that we feel with you. We are very sorry for that incident and we will try our utmost best to see how we can for fill your requests. And when you think about your mother and your father and now also a young son and especially when they ask him where - what had happened to his father. You must know that we will try our utmost best to see what we can do. We will see what we can do to commemorate your brother - to provide a tombstone and we hope that the newspaper will hear what you have said - they have ears - and we will see and wait to see what they will do. And we hope, I mean , that the fact that you have come here and spoken in this forum can be a thing that helps a little bit in lightning this burden which Pumla has spoken about. That you have spoken now in the open, thank you.