hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-14 WINELANDS 1 CT/00866 LIZZY PHIKE [mother], NTEMI PHIKE LIZZY PHIKE [mother], BONISWA SISHUBA DETENTION, SHOT & KILLED https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56143&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/wineland/ct00866.htm DR ORR LIZZY PHIKE Duly sworn states BONISWA SISHUBA Duly sworn states DR ORR REV XUNDU I want to ask you to give us a picture that will explain to us what happened to you and the manner in which it happened, so that we can be able to understand and ask relevant questions. Thank you. MS PHIKE REV XUNDU Is that Lizzy? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU I wanted to start with Ntemi. MS PHIKE I spent something like a week - something like two weeks. I was taken to Pollsmoor Prison. When I arrived there, there were other people who were also arrested under the State of Emergency which was - which were the people who were to be arrested for fourteen days. Detective Groenewald arrived, he told me that he was not going to interrogate me, but he wanted me to work with them - to co-operate against the people of Mbekweni. Because they knew very well that the people of Mbekweni had confidence in me and if I co-operate, they are going to release me - they were going to release me. REV XUNDU You went back to the cell? MS PHIKE Yes REV XUNDU But in your statement you say you heard over the radio that there was a conflict between the AZAPO and the UDF. MS PHIKE Yes, there was that problem that the people were fighting the youth of AZAPO and UDF were fighting. So it was not really nice in that prison. REV XUNDU MS PHIKE He said to me sit down, he told me that your child had passed away, he was killed by the AZAPO and UDF. I told him that he was lying, they are the people who killed my child, who was ...[intervention] REV XUNDU Where did this take place - what did this take place? MS PHIKE He said to me call all your children, I mentioned all those who were with me Freddy, David and Ntemi. And he said Ntemi was the one, I was not well since after that - I started crying. Captain wanted to know what happened, the Detective told him that her child is dead. He asked him why could he tell me this kind of information, they said to - they told them that they must release me. There was Jinpiece Mashalangu - Mashalangu wanted to come back - to come back to the prison instead - instead of me in and them they told him that he cannot go there in that cell because he was arrested in Cape Town and the instruction is coming from Mr Vlok from Pretoria. REV XUNDU While we was still burying did the groups - the PAC and AZAPO came to - did the groups to disturb you? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU Was there anybody who was arrested in regard - was there anybody arrested concerning the death of Ntemi? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU Then after the funeral you said you were detained again. MS PHIKE REV XUNDU Did this all happen in May? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU Did you come back here? MS PHIKE Yes, I came back to Paarl. I spent something like a month - on that particular night was interrogated by Le Roux. They asked me about people who are in Lusaka. REV XUNDU What do you mean when you say you were tortured? MS PHIKE Ntemi had a child with a lady from Fort Beaufort, fortunately this girl came to look for Ntemi, but unfortunately Ntemi was dead. I knew very well that Ntemi had a child, some where there. My aim was to take this child and help him at school. REV XUNDU Where is this child now? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU MS PHIKE No efforts - there were no efforts, but we - during the elections I razed the point that the people who were oppressing us, who never apologized will never be our leaders. REV XUNDU You mean you have a wish that something should be done so that it could bring about reconciliation? MS PHIKE My wish is that the people just before they - [indistinct] the people who are going to be our leaders, they must first talk to the people who are oppressing us as we were fighting for our freedom. REV XUNDU AZAPO? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU Do you have any wishes - what wishes do you have and request that you have to the Commission? MS PHIKE REV XUNDU MS PHIKE REV XUNDU MS SISHUBA I think I was going to give a picture of how this all happened so that you can also make out what actually happened. In 1985 [indistinct] shack was burnt and that is when the conflict started. On a Sunday morning we saw a group of young boys going to some house where Rasta lived and they were shouting saying that the UDF members were responsible for the burning of the shack and a child had died. They moved on to another house that belonged to a UDF house - member but no one took notice of all this because no one expected that there was going to be so much damage. So that very same night Rasta was chased and he was hurt and died. REV XUNDU And did Rasta have a home and parents there? MS SISHUBA Rasta originally came from Cape Town, he was just a visitor. I had seen him only for two days. REV XUNDU So Rasta was killed that night? MS SISHUBA Yes, after his death these young boys were escorted by police van and provoking people in the location and people noticed all this and they started to defend themselves. And that is when tear gas was sprayed and there was a confusion in the location. And this really disturbed me and I wished that the police could stop all this because I could anticipate that many people were going to die from all this. REV XUNDU By the way you say there was [indistinct] Williams , Yabo and Thembisele Ngehu who were this? MS SISHUBA [indistinct] Williams is a one witness where Rasta went to and was - in whose house he was hacked. And I think he knows who actually killed Rasta. REV XUNDU And so you saw that the police was not involved, what steps did you take as women? MS SISHUBA It was the time when there was the State of Emergency and there were blockades all over and I thought that people were not aware of what the police were doing. So I would make telephone calls to The Times and to the Argus newspapers but they were doing nothing about all this. I had intention to expose everything of what was happening because this youth was a first - soccer club and then later known as AZANJU. So we were looking at then as the youth of the AZANJU. I then went to Ms Bishop and told her that the policeman were not of assistance and she referred me to Tian Van Der Merwe who came to Paarl and I tried means to go and talk to him. With intention that this was going to be referred to the Parliament and perhaps be published. REV XUNDU Now in your talk you - in your statement you say this collaboration between the police and the PAC was very strong and you have made mention of Lalase. MS SISHUBA REV XUNDU Was she a resident in the location? MS SISHUBA Yes, her sons were members of the AZANJU. REV XUNDU So they assaulted Lalase and then what happened? MS SISHUBA Those who had been arrested with her were acquitted and Lalase had a wound just behind the ear. So I approached other women that we should go to the head of the police to go and lay a charge against the policemen because we were of the opinion that they were not aware but the women were very afraid of being detained. So I took the elderly women and they agreed to go with me, such that some of them died - they are dead now. So we went there so that - to show our concern and disturbance. So we told - we talked to a policeman and ask for the head of the Riot Squad and then we were referred to Mr Willemse who was supposedly they had. REV XUNDU So what did Willemse say? MS SISHUBA REV XUNDU Is this Willemse still there? MS SISHUBA REV XUNDU Go on and tell us more about Popayi and Ndinisa and Veyi. MS SISHUBA So he went away without any thing from Willem. A few days thereafter - that was the day when Mabridge died - I was still sleeping and them I was woken up and told that there was a child laying down there, but he was still alive. But people were scared to go nearer this body. So I woke up and dressed up and I saw Willemse standing next to this person, together with Simpi - another policeman from the location and another lady Ladia Kassie - who was a member of the PAC. REV XUNDU So you say this black policeman was from the location? MS SISHUBA Yes, he was from the location and I know him perfectly well. REV XUNDU Did he give any evidence thereafter? MS SISHUBA And knowing this child and the parent Sue, I screamed but I controlled myself. And he asked me whether I knew the person, I said yes and this is the result of your actions. If he had listened to us this would not have happened. So this is the result of all your actions. We expected that this was going to happen. REV XUNDU And then your answer was that you were afraid of just fourteen people. MS SISHUBA REV XUNDU What was Ms Kassie doing at the time? MS SISHUBA She was standing, just watching. REV XUNDU MS SISHUBA REV XUNDU So now you say what would you like this Commission to do with Willemse? MS SISHUBA We would like a - the Truth Commission to call Willemse because he has got a lot of information. REV XUNDU So I suspect that he could have had a meeting with this young boys? MS SISHUBA We do talk with these boys as we are in the same community and we would like that they should be asked why they did all this. REV XUNDU I think this is the most important part because it means that you want to reconcile with these people and establish peace. Is there any other wish you have to forward to this Commission? MS SISHUBA REV XUNDU Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MS SISHUBA We just heard that it got burnt as a result of the gas cylinder and there was no reason why they had to think that he - the UDF was responsible for the burning. We had not heard that they had come together but all they did was to kill the members of the UDF. There had been no conflict before all this, all we knew was that the shack got burnt as a result of gas. Unless they perhaps have another story and I wish they could come forward to tell us what had happened actually. All I can say is that they were in the company of policemen. CHAIRPERSON Because even as a black you would go asking for help, they would always made us a laughing stock and say you are killing each other. Even now some of them are still saying that. We are therefore going to hear from the police one day as to what was happening exactly at the time, but for now we must thank you and comfort you and you must know your efforts led us to what we are today and to where we are today. We thank you.