hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-06-24 WORCESTER 1 CT/00530 YVONNE KHUTWANE YVONNE KHUTWANE TORTURE/DETENTION https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56170&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/worcest/ct00530.htm MS KHUTWANE Yes I can hear you. DR ORR [indistinct] it has been a long time and its not easy when you are anxious about telling your own story, thank you very much for your patience. And now its going to be your turn, would you stand to take the oath please. YVONNE KHUTWANE Duly sworn states DR ORR Thank you, you may sit down. Ms Pumla Gobodo is going to help you to tell your story to us this afternoon. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA We would like you to start by explaining why were you prosecuted and tortured by the police, could you please give us a short briefing about what happened. MS KHUTWANE I would like to say, before I am going to give details about what happened, I am a bit forgetful but I will try to remember as much as possible. I may not say the exact and accurate dates, but I will try to give estimations there might be some who could understand when was it. We were coming from the funeral we burying Galata Goniwe and the others, it was in the morning when we came back from Cradock. The - there were uprisings and there was instability in our location. We would see the cars, police cars going up and down the streets, but we were not much bothered about what was going on. The same evening when we came back we were informed that there would be a meeting at the community hall in Zwelethemba. It was a parents meeting, the secondary school, I was the committee member representing the parents, I was one of the parents who attended this meeting. I also had children who were attending school, at the same school. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Are you trying to clarify how do you get involved into politics. MS KHUTWANE This was not liked by the community councillors, it was also said that I - we should also consciences people and inform them that the councillors were not accepted among the communities. That was the first time when I was arrested, I was together with Abel [indistinct] and Vallie Moosa was our lawyer. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Which year was that when you were arrested for your announcements. MS KHUTWANE It was in 1984. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Were you arrested in 1984? MS KHUTWANE Yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can you please [indistinct] and inform us about the way in which you were handled. MS KHUTWANE No we were not detained the only thing is that the detectives use to come and visit our place and they would ask where I was. I would also be given orders to go to the CID offices to give statement. I did go and I gave the statement as they wanted it. In my statement I realised that there was some information which I gave about Mr [indistinct] which meant that I was exposing his activities. Mr Vallie Moosa withdrew the case and requested that it should be postponed. It is then that I was affected severely to the extend that even today, I cannot explain how did it come about that I should seem as have betrayed my friend. But fortunately [indistinct] won the case, he was acquitted. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In other words you are giving a statement in which you were degraded by the police, could you please just explain that. MS KHUTWANE If I can come closer to the gist of this whole story, I can state that when we came out of the meeting, I drove to town using my car and the youth was celebrating and juvelating ??? MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Where were you from? MS KHUTWANE I was informed that I was wanted telephonically, I communicated with this person who identified himself as Freddie [indistinct] He said I am suppose to attend the court hearings. I wanted to know why should I be there - he said because I had laid a charge against one of the boys who stole my battery. So they informed me that we - we are going to go and attend the court hearings in connection with my batteries which we usually stolen by the children and the one boys. So when I came - I got there, I that there was nobody around. So my youngest boy was together with me, because he was witness to this theft which had taken place. So we stayed there because even the accused was also available. Whilst we were still sitting, Freddie came along and he informed me that I am suppose to get inside. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Is Freddie the policeman? MS KHUTWANE When I was about to - to give a response to one of the questions, the other one said I am spoggerig - they kept on interrogating me for hours on end. I was responding to their - all the questions. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What were they asking about? MS KHUTWANE They insisted that I was telling lies, so I must stay, tell them who burnt the bar who was belonging to the Municipality - they also wanted to know the details about what was discussed at the meeting. They even asked what Mr [indistinct] said about the State of Emergency. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Who was this [indistinct] MS KHUTWANE Mr [indistinct] was one of the committee members of the Secondary School - because he was giving orders to the children that they should please - he advises them that they should stop going around at night, because the State of Emergency was going to be implemented. They were asking me a lot of questions and they were so rude towards me. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Was he this young boy? MS KHUTWANE Yes it was a white young boy. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Was he in uniform? MS KHUTWANE No he was in private but when he looked, the shirt that he put on, it looked like those of the policemen. So I kept quite also because he was slapping me. He said speak you bitch, I just kept on staring at him. He grabbed me by the throat and then slapped me hard on the face. And then we fought. It was an exchange of blows and I was very angry because he was just -he could be as old as one of my children. When the fight continued, you could hear that there was somebody coming along and then they were ridiculing me and then saying I am a John Tait and a Gerrie Coetzee the boxers. At the end I could see that they were also embarrassed because some of the black detectives came in. My shirt was in tatters and then one of them said are you fighting back you kaffer and then they kept on insulting me. As I was still here, there were some young children who were brought in, who were crying. They were screaming and cries and then there was one child who was staying at Africa. They continued interrogating me for hours. About 2 pm the two white men came in the office -they called me and then I followed them to one of the offices and then they - again they took me out of the office. When we were outside I could see one yellow police van. During that period, they took one of the handcuffs and then connected me to one of the handles of the door of the car. Then I was ordered to come inside. We were driving back to the location and you can see that - as you entered the township you could see that there were so many police vans and big hippos and then I had to alight from the car, I was suppose to get inside the hippo again and you could see that there were a lot of soldiers around. There was one detective who is [indistinct] he was informed that he should escort me so that I can identify the place. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Were you still in handcuffs? MS KHUTWANE The place - all the people were curious now because the whole area next to my place was infested by the police. At the end they took off the iron legs - the leg irons. When they got inside, they were searching. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What were they looking for? MS KHUTWANE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Excuse me mamma - can you please tell me what did they do to you. MS KHUTWANE I can just explain that they were just searching at this period and they were going at the backyard and searching the premises and they were tearing the ceiling down. One of the kommandant said no the ANC members would sue do - do not destroy his property and damage anything here -then I was arrested and detained again. So I was afraid but at the same time I was having the hope that they were going to take me back home. One of them called me and said - called my name - when I was about to take my baggage they said no I must leave it behind. So we went through the same passage which I walked through during the day. When we were up the stairs I was taken down again and I was ordered to board this hippo. I had to get on and then they started driving the hippo away. We went down the High Street over the bridge and we went through Rawsonville - you could see a [indistinct] just nearer. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What were they doing to do as you are here? MS KHUTWANE The other question that they asked me is how do I feel when they - when I am having intercourse with a man. This was too much for me because they were repeating it time and again, asking me the same question, asking me what do I like with the intercourse do I like the size of the penis or what do I enjoy most. So the other one was just putting his hand inside me through the vagina, I was crying because I was afraid that we have heard that the soldiers are very notorious of raping people. This one continued putting his say finger right through me, he kept on penetrating and I was asking for forgiveness and I was asking them what have I done, I am old enough to be your mother. But why are you treating me like this - this was very-very embarrassing. He take his gun and beat me on the head - keep on beating me, asking whether am I willing to say something or not - and he kept on doing the same thing. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Excuse me mamma Khutwane - we would like to know what did these people exactly want to find out from you - was it - was it guns or petrol bombs? MS KHUTWANE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA [indistinct] I want to know and want to identify the situation that you were while these people detained you. You have given us the - the other way that they treated you during that period and we got what you are trying to say and the way they treated you while you were in the van. MS KHUTWANE I could think maybe they thought that I was just a black person who is out of his mind - I mean out of the minds - not knowing anything. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes its like that, because like the one who slapped you hardly on your face he was also a youngster. So I think they dishonour you, humiliating you, lower your dignity as much as they can. We would like to come to an end of this so that my colleagues could come - could ask you some questions, I would like to know how many kids do you have. MS KHUTWANE I have got four children. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA How old are they? MS KHUTWANE They are old enough - they are very old - some of them have own houses. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And you also own a house. MS KHUTWANE Yes I had one, but unfortunately I divorced my husband. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am just saying that you are also a mother. MS KHUTWANE Yes I am a mother. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Is because I am imagining the way this children, this policeman had treated you. I had a picture in mind looking at the way they were treating you - even the people - the community people what were they feeling then. I was wondering - I am wondering what was on your mind by the time they were moving with you in the van right around the location. MS KHUTWANE I thought that as I was one of the ANC members they wanted me to withdraw from the ANC not to hold meetings again because I would know what will be the treatment I will get, even now - Niewoudt by the day I was in the police cell they tried to suffocate me with a towel and he sat - he sat on my chest. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Is that Niewoudt? MS KHUTWANE A Magistrate came along, his name was Botha - then I was sent back to the prison and there were fifteen other accused and I was told to be, I was informed that I was accused no 1 and I was [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA As you were accused did you ever go to report and lay charge about the treatment that you received. MS KHUTWANE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Is it - were there people who said you have betrayed others? MS KHUTWANE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In your statement you had mentioned that we should find out why was your house burnt down, how was it burnt, how were you degraded and how were you - reported as an informer. MS KHUTWANE Yes I would like that to happen. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I would like to ask you one last question - do you know the names of the police who were using abusive language towards you and those who were molesting you. MS KHUTWANE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MS KHUTWANE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA If you could know them - what would you do if you can meet them or what would you say to them. MS KHUTWANE Do you want to know if I can say to them if I meet them. MS KHUTWANE Yes I would like to find out. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What would you say to them should you meet them? MS KHUTWANE You know I would say to them even if they enjoy life now, I can just inform them that they should try to have manners. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Okay we are finished you - I would hand over to the Chairperson - thank you very much. DR BORAINE Thank you very much indeed - any other questions - no. None of my colleagues have any further questions. You have been through a very hard time and not only were you very badly molested and insulted, imprisoned - solitary confinement - charged - kept waiting for two years before your case was heard and found not guilty and then to find that your own friends and comrades suspected you of giving information and informing. You lost your house, your family has been unwell, you have suffered very-very deeply and we are very aware of the pain that you have experienced. We have noted your request to the Commission, we have written it down, we will follow it up. We will do everything we can to try and find out the information that you have asked for and we just hope and pray that your own life will know some peace and happiness and joy because you certainly deserve it, you have been through a great deal. Thank you very much for coming today and sharing this with us and we hope you go well - thank you very much.