hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1999-05-06 ZEERUST LILIAN T KADI JB3542 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56188&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/zeerust/zeekadi.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Pule arrived ? No. Lilian Kadi ? No. Can I ask Lekolobo Segobodi to come to the stage. L KADI No. CHAIRPERSON Sorry ? L KADI My surname in Kladi, Kadi. CHAIRPERSON Welcome Lilian. Lilian you’ve come to tell us about something that happened in 1993. I’m going to ask Professor Meiring to help you with your oath and then Dr Ally is going to be helping you as you tell your story. Professor Meiring ? PROF. MEIRING Miss Kadi, will you please stand and raise your hand into the air. Will you please take the oath, saying, everything I say is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. LILIAN KADI (sworn states) DR ALLY Lilian, welcome. L KADI Thank you. DR ALLY Thank you for coming. You’re coming to speak about a number of incidents that happened to many members of your family and in particular about Bennet Kadi. Events which take place over quite a long period, beginning in 1993 and then extending right into 1994. So, if you could please just go through what happened to your family and in particular to Bennet. Thank you. L KADI It was on Thursday, at night, around 12 o’clock. Somebody came and wake us up, saying people are crowded at the shop and they were singing ANC slogans and they are looting at the restaurant and the restaurant is burning. That’s why father walk up to that place. When he arrived there he saw many people, therefore you couldn’t do anything. He turned back and went to the police next to the Botswana border. He came with the police. When they arrived there the shop was gutted. Then they went home whilst those people are still there. They came home. They found the police there and then the police shot them and they ran away, then the police were coming in many instances and protecting. They would come for thirty minutes and leave. After four days, it was during the day and my parents were sitting under the tree, I was sleeping at that time, I could hear a sound but I thought I was dreaming, then I slept again. Then I could hear stone throwing. My parents ran away and went into the house and outside were full of people holding ANC flags and placards and throwing stones inside the house and the house was burning. We were sitting inside the house not knowing what to do. The house was burning, the floor was burning, the ceiling was burning and the ceiling was falling on the ground. We would run to the rooms where there is no fire and later the whole house was gutted to the ground. Not knowing what to do, we ran outside the house and they were throwing, still throwing stones. A certain boy came to help me. A certain one came with a spear then he tried to stab me but the boy who helped me, protected me. I was hit with stones and some of my teeth were removed, my two siblings were able to run away. In the house was my father and my uncle and inside they were burnt by that fire, then they ran out, then my father wanted to jump the fence. A certain boy came with a spade and slapped him and then he fell on the ground. He was pulled outside but my uncle was able to run for a distance. After that he was caught and there was a container of diesel, they were put just next to that container and they were slapped with those spades. They took tyres which were outside and put them on their neck and they were burnt. After that the police came after three hours they were taken and all of us, together with my, with my brother, we were taken to the hospital. They took my father and my uncle to the mortuary. The police came after two weeks to take the statement. From there we submitted our statement, then we went to court but we were not informed to come to court, but I went to the police station to ask them, why did they take statements and they don’t want us to come to court, but the police said they were afraid of the confusion because those people would come, so they were waiting for come. The court case proceeded. Those people who were arrested, were given bail, because we gave them names of people who were leaders. Even up to-day, we didn’t go, the court case didn’t proceed. Even when, even to-day, they still say, they are still investigating about those people. DR ALLY Lilian, just to get something straight. Your father was not the only one that was killed in this incident, your uncle was also killed, also burnt ? L KADI Yes, both of them died. DR ALLY J Kadi, what was his name, the name of your uncle ? L KADI The one who died ? His name is Justice Kadi. DR ALLY And he was your father’s brother and this ... ? L KADI That’s true. DR ALLY Has anybody besides you made at statement about your late uncle, Mr Justice Kadi, other family members ? L KADI That’s myself only and my brother. DR ALLY You also mention your, a brother, and what happened to him ? He was eight years old at the time, your younger brother? L KADI He was eight years at that time. DR ALLY And what did happen to him, because you put him down as, as... ? L KADI He lost some teeth because we were hit with stones and we had, both me and him, we had just injuries. DR ALLY And another sister, a younger sister as well ? L KADI That’s myself and my brother. DR ALLY Now can you tell us a little bit about your father the late Bennet Kadi because you speak in your statement about his political activities, maybe you can just tell us a little bit more ? L KADI I only know that my father was a member of parliament and that’s nothing more I know about his political activity. DR ALLY He was a member of parliament in Mangope’s government, Chief Mangope’s government? L KADI Yes, that’s true. DR ALLY And you don’t know for how long or when he became a member of parliament. You don’t know, do you know any of those details ? L KADI He started to be a member of parliament in the inception of the Boputhatswana government. DR ALLY In 77, since 1977? L KADI That’s true. DR ALLY Was he just a member of parliament or did he have, do you know if he, if he was ever in the cabinet or did he have any other senior position ? L KADI He was just and honorary member of parliament. DR ALLY And your father was also a businessman, not so ? L KADI Yes, he was a businessman. DR ALLY What businesses did he have ? L KADI He had two shops. DR ALLY There’s conflict because you say that the people who came to your house on that particular day, that they were, that you said that were shouting ANC slogans did you say that? L KADI That’s true, I said that. DR ALLY And did they have any ANC T-shirts or flags or anything, or was it just that they were shouting ANC slogans ? L KADI They were having ANC placards and ANC flags. DR ALLY These slogans, can you remember, can you tell us, give us an example of one of the slogans which was shouted ? L KADI No, I cannot give you an example. DR ALLY Now, before this, this incident where your house was attacked and burnt were there any other clashes between your father and members of the village people, who you say, who you think belonged to the ANC ? L KADI There was no conflict between my father and the local residents, but some members of the ANC, yes. DR ALLY Now can you tell us about this, give us examples of this ? L KADI They to our house, you know, passing and then they would shout and say, he has built a big house with the government’s money and that they’re going to use that house to be an ANC office. DR ALLY And your father, did he ever speak about what was happening ? Did he ever speak to you about what was happening ? L KADI No, he was not communicating with us about that, in that regard. DR ALLY And your mother at the time, where was she ? L KADI Do you mean the time when they were burnt ? DR ALLY That you’re speaking about, where was your mother ? L KADI No, he was not communicating with us in that regard Sir. DR ALLY But you say that the funeral that you organised, was very difficult because you said you were, that you were threatened all the time, can you tell us a bit about that, about the actual funeral of your father, where it took place and how it was organised ? L KADI There were no people who were coming to assist us with the preparations. I was the only one who was running around looking for money, looking for caskets, looking for beasts and looking for groceries and that those people who would come to the funeral would have something to eat but there was nobody who was helping me even about the preparations. DR ALLY You also say that you were harassed and that you were threatened during the time that you were trying to organise the funeral. Can you tell us about that ? L KADI They were telling us after we have buried the corpses they would exhume it and put it in front of our house. DR ALLY You say you did all of this on your own. You don’t mention your mother at all in, in your statement. Can you, can you tell ... (tape ended) L KADI My mother is staying at Vet Luigat and I’m staying with my two siblings at, locally here and they are schooling at Mmabatho. DR ALLY These people who you mentioned as the people responsible, at least the people who were part of that group, do you ever, do you see them, do you interact with them ? L KADI I don’t go to that Luigat which means I’ve no way of meeting with them, so I haven’t met them since. DR ALLY Since that incident, since that night of 1994 you’ve never had contact with them again? L KADI No, I didn’t even meet one of them. DR ALLY Thank you very much for coming to speak to us about something that is obviously very, very painful, to lose a parent is hard enough but to lose a parent under those circumstances with the horrific burning that you, that you describe and to witness something like that, so thank you, thank you very much for coming to speak to us. I’ll give you back to the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Miss Seroke. MISS SEROKE You say, your mother is staying at Vet Luigat ? L KADI That’s true. MISS SEROKE Did you rebuild that house ? L KADI Yes, we did rebuild the house. MISS SEROKE So you’re still, you’re still in the same house ? L KADI Yes, we’re still in the same house. MISS SEROKE Was it gutted to the ground? L KADI Yes, it was burnt to the ground. MISS SEROKE So you started from the foundation? L KADI Yes, we did. MISS SEROKE Where are you working? L KADI I’m working at Standard Bank in Lefurutsi. MISS SEROKE Your siblings, what standard are they doing ? L KADI Two of them are not attending school, one is doing standard ten, the other one standard nine, the other one standard six. MISS SEROKE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Professor Meiring. PROF. MEIRING Miss Lilian, thank you for coming and it must have been very difficult to tell your story. I’ll be very brief with my questions. The one question is, after the horrible thing that happened to your family, did you or your younger brother and sister or your mother underwent any form of counselling ? Did people treat you psychologically for what happened ? L KADI No, we didn’t, we didn’t meet the psychologist Sir. PROF. MEIRING Would you like that ? Is that a need in the family? L KADI Definitely, I say it is a need. PROF. MEIRING Thank you, I also see in your statement that you feel that there’s no tombstone on your father’s grave, is that correct ? L KADI That’s true. PROF. MEIRING And then there’s also the matter of the insurance policies that have not been paid out and you need help with that? L KADI That’s true. PROF. MEIRING Thank you. There’s a last thing that I would just like to mention. You say in your statement that you are prepared to meet with the perpetrators of this deed, it they are willing to meet with you and explain what happened., is that still the case ? Are you still willing to meet with the perpetrators ? L KADI Yes, I’m prepared to meet with them. PROF. MEIRING Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Lilian, just one question. I heard you say that you’ve out of the village but your mother still lives in the village, now you said to Professor Meiring that you’d be willing to meet up with the perpetrators. L KADI That’s true. CHAIRPERSON After all these years, how do you actually feel about what happened ? L KADI They de-stopped our lives, because we could have gone to school. Now we don’t have somebody responsible who can help us further our studies. I was, I couldn’t have been working, I could have been at school now. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Lilian. Lilian, I’m sure it’s - coming here and telling your story to-day, is extremely painful. This happened four or five years ago and I just want to echo what Dr Ally said, that this was a horrific killing almost at the time that we were about to move into a democratic South Africa as you’ve said in your statement yourself. I hope that coming here to-day has helped in some way and that the questions that Professor Meiring has asked you, that some help will be provided. Thank you very much for coming.