hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-06 ZEERUST L S MAKGANYE JB0716 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56190&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/zeerust/zeemakga.htm CHAIRPERSON Come to all the deponents, the witnesses who are sitting here to-day will be coming to tell us their stories. Let us just remember a little about what happened in this particular area of our country. in the then Boputhatswana of course, people experienced it in a real way, where what is, The last point I want to make is that the amnesty deadline comes to an end this week although the work of the Commission goes on till December of this year. The 10th of May is on Saturday. That is going to be the last opportunity and to quote the Archbishop when he appealed to the nation of Sunday, a very generous offer has been made by our people and our government to those individuals from every side who either committed an act or omission or gross human rights violation for which action can be, legal action can be taken against them in the future, that this is the opportunity, the last opportunity, the last few days for those people to come forward and make their amnesty application. L MAKGANYE Good morning, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Can you please introduce the gentlemen who is with you. L MAKGANYE My name is Lizo Makganye. The man next to me is Elias Mtsusi. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Tate. If you will just stand to take the oath which Professor Meiring will help you with. PROF. MEIRING Mr Makganye, will you please stand up and put your hand in the air and will you please repeat that, everything I say will be the truth, nothing but the truth, the whole truth, so help me God. LIZO MAKGANYE (sworn states) PROF. MEIRING You may sit down. L MAKGANYE Okay. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Tate. L MAKGANYE Okay. CHAIRPERSON Miss Joyce Seroke is going to be help you as you tell your story to us. I hand over to her. MISS SEROKE: Thank you, Sir. Mr Makganye, good morning. L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE What did he do ? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE what happened to Snowball and it seems you, you have given us the complete picture. I would ask you to wait for questions now. You said in your statement Snowball and together with the youth met and they were talking about Boskop project. Can you explain about that project? What was that project about ? L MAKGANYE It was a project about agriculture. Talking about livestock and to sell eggs and to plough vegetables. Even now a plot which we are now going on with the project. After that, we were not ale to continue there because we had many fights. MISS SEROKE This project you are telling us about, was it part of the political activity? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE What was the cause that the police should do that ? L MAKGANYE What made them to do that is there was a struggle in our village because Mangope wanted us to be his people and to be amalgamated in Boputhatswana and we rejected that request and he came to build a power station in our village. MISS SEROKE So you denied to be amalgamated in Boputhatswana. L MAKGANYE Yes, we denied because we even went as far a Pretoria and Bloemfontein. MISS SEROKE When you said Snowball raised his fist, was he, in which organization was he in? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE Was he a member of the ANC or not ? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE Where is Snowball now ? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE Is he still working by now ? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE I see in your statements that there are medical reports and reports from the Magistrate. I want to ask about Esther Makganye. Is she the mother to this, is she the mother to the child ? L MAKGANYE Yes, she was the mother to the child. She was there when Snowball was assaulted. Esther ran away behind the clinic, but the one who was talking to the police was Elizabeth Makganye, who is my wife. MISS SEROKE In your statement again I see, is Mr Tallie who was the Chairperson of, of that meeting. Did Mr Tallie and Esther give statements ? L MAKGANYE Yes, they did hand over their statements. They only allowed Mr Tallie to give their statement. MISS SEROKE I was talking about statements for the Truth Commission no, not, not about the Magistrate. L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE We will try ask our statement takers to get her to make a statement. We will try to tell them that they should testify in this regard. Those who have assaulted Snowball, Abraham Maletsani, Elias Pilane, are they still there ? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE Are they still working as police ? L MAKGANYE MISS SEROKE PROF. MEIRING Mr Makganye, thank you for telling the story. There are a number of things I would like to ask still. You said that your son... (interrupted) MISS SEROKE You are free, you can ask your questions, Sir. PROF. MEIRING Thank you very much. Your son is married. Was he married before or after the torture ? L MAKGANYE He married before he was tortured. As you know that our children just sit together and then after that they made a legal wedding. Then during that time even before then they were just sitting together but after that they married, they married legally. PROF. MEIRING The child, is that a boy or a girl ? L MAKGANYE PROF. MEIRING What is her name ? L MAKGANYE PROF. MEIRING No problem, we will get it from them. You said that he is, he can still work, what type of work does he do at the government office ? L MAKGANYE PROF. MEIRING He has some training, he went to school and he had training as, was he being trained as an electrician ? L MAKGANYE PROF. MEIRING What standard did he complete? Was he in standard six or eight or nine ? L MAKGANYE He passed standard eight, Sir. PROF. MEIRING Eight ? L MAKGANYE Then after standard eight he was engaged in the struggle, then he left school to other areas. PROF. MEIRING Thank you so much. Those were the questions I wanted to ask. Thank you, Sir. L MAKGANYE Let me not speak much. If I forgot other things, when I remember them I should be given an opportunity to, to put them forward. Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON I just want to ask you one more question. I just want to understand... (interrupted) L MAKGANYE You are free to ask me some questions, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You said earlier on when you were speaking to Miss Seroke, that, that there was a struggle of the people of Braklaagte against incorporation but that was around 1988, 1989... (interrupted) Tate, sorry, can I finish - but this happened in 1993. What was happening in 1993 that made the police come in such large numbers back into the community and take such action against the people ? L MAKGANYE They did so because we did not want to be incorporated in Boputhatswana and that we should enter. CHAIRPERSON L MAKGANYE Do you say we were incorporated in Boputhatswana ? CHAIRPERSON Yes. L MAKGANYE CHAIRPERSON Can I then just ask why you and the people were so much against incorporation into Boputhatswana ? Why did you want to stay part of South Africa at that stage ? L MAKGANYE We see that it was not proper to be incorporated into Boputhatswana. CHAIRPERSON Can you add a little more to that Tate, what do you mean , not proper? L MAKGANYE CHAIRPERSON L MAKGANYE CHAIRPERSON