hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-06 ZEERUST L S MAKGANYE JB0716 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56190&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/zeerust/zeemakga.htm CHAIRPERSON Come to all the deponents, the witnesses who are sitting here to-day will be coming to tell us their stories. Let us just remember a little about what happened in this particular area of our country. To-day, of course, Zeerust is part of the North West Province, but those of you who have lived in this area, have grown up in this area will remember that Zeerust remained part of, if you like White South Africa at the time, but not far from here, in some of the communities, we saw, particularly in the late 80’s, some of the most intense struggles as communities refused to be incorporated into the homeland, or into the independent homeland of Boputhatswana and many people of course, as we will hear to-day, suffered as a consequence. Many people died as a result. Let us also not forget, within the Commission were are always being asked, why the Truth and Reconciliation Commission ? Could we not, especially as the amnesty applications have come in and some of those applicants have been successful at getting their amnesty, the question has often been thrown at us, why not go the prosecutory path? Why not sentence those people, are we not cheapening justice by providing amnesty? But let’s not forget that in 1994, not very far from here again, there was an, in the then Boputhatswana of course, people experienced it in a real way, where what is, wat we refer to as the right wing elements in our country decided they would take up arms and support the besieged government of Lukas Mangope and that was all around us. The negotiating process, it had started in Kempton Park and continued and saw the Transitional Executive Council come into being. There was always that possibility that we all lived with of, of a backlash and I want to say, I bring up this point for two reasons. One is just to remind ourselves of that, of where we’ve come from very, very recently. Two, also to say to people who have relatives, friends who suffered either torture or death during that uprising, they also have the opportunity to come to the Commission because when the Commission came into existence, our cut-off date was December 1993. We then appealed to the Government and to the President to extend it, extend that period to April of this year and so the uprising in, in Mafeking in, the then Boputhatswana, the people actually suffered gross human rights violations, have the opportunity to make statements about what happened at that time to them or to their family members. And please, I would like that message to go through because when we first came into the areas, we were curtailed by the earlier date, but that was extended and although publicity has been given to that on radio, television and newspapers, my impression is that sometimes people haven’t got that message clearly. The last point I want to make is that the amnesty deadline comes to an end this week although the work of the Commission goes on till December of this year. The 10th of May is on Saturday. That is going to be the last opportunity and to quote the Archbishop when he appealed to the nation of Sunday, a very generous offer has been made by our people and our government to those individuals from every side who either committed an act or omission or gross human rights violation for which action can be, legal action can be taken against them in the future, that this is the opportunity, the last opportunity, the last few days for those people to come forward and make their amnesty application. So, I appeal again from the Commission’s side and there inevitably to-day many names will be mentioned of alleged perpetrators. Now we have of course, as it’s a ruling, we have sent off letters to those individuals but again through to-day’s hearing, I make that appeal once more. Sorry, I said that was the last point. Two more points. Sorry, Sir. Can I just say that, although we are just going to be listening to twelve people’s stories to-day that does not mean that all those other people who made statements to us, that their stories are not important. The demanding factor on us and on you is the time factor and we just have not been able to give everybody the opportunity to come forward and tell their stories and within the Commission, we recognise the importance of that but we also recognise that every statement is important and every statement is being considered. We have almost ten thousand statements from people all over the country and only seventeen percent of those people have been able to come and tell their stories at a hearing like this. The majority of those statements are going through the process of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and we are investigating them and coming to a decision whether a person is a victim or not and every individual, even those people to-day, who will not be telling their stories should have received a letter from the Commission stating a reference number and we will come back to them in the future as to the decision that we have made. I also want to say as my last point, that for those people who have not made a statement, we have got statement takers here to-day, at the back of the hall, upstairs, as I understand it if they want to make statements, this is the opportunity do, to do so. If you ’ve missed the opportunity the statement takers are some of, not in the, I think one is actually living in this area now. The others are in Rustenberg, in Mmabatha and they will come out with their plan as to when they’ll come back to this area, after to-day’s hearing. So, yes, people can continue making statements, until, officially, until December. We won’t have statement takers after June but individuals can still sent their statements in to us, to our office and the office address is on the back of the Truth Talk that is at the entrance of the organisation. Thank you, that’s, those are all the points I want to make. I want to introduce our panel to-day. On my right-hand side, Miss Joyce Seroke who is a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee. Can I just say that all of us are based in the Johannesburg office of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. My name is Fazel Randera, I’m going to be chairing to-day’s proceedings. I’m also a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee. Dr Russel Ally next to me, also a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and Professor Piet Meiring, who is a member of the Reparations and Rehabilitations Committee. We have as I said earlier on, got twelve people to listen to. Some of those haven’t arrived. As they arrive, they will be incorporated in to-day’s proceedings. I hope everybody understands these little boxes here to-day. We have got a full interpretation service. If people want a box, I think if you can just go to the side of the, over there and you’ll be handed these little black boxes. I don’t know all the languages ... Okay. On the right hand side here, there are some numbers and if you twiddle the numbers, you’ll actually get it, either in English or Tswana. So that’s available to people who wish to make use of it. Right. Can I then call our first witness for the day, for the day. Lesego. Sorry, Makganye. Lesego Makganye. Thank you Sir. I’ve just been told that English is on Channel three, sorry, English on Channel two and Tswana on Channel three. Tate Makganye, good morning. L MAKGANYE Good morning, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Can you please introduce the gentlemen who is with you. L MAKGANYE My name is Lizo Makganye. The man next to me is Elias Mtsusi. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Tate. If you will just stand to take the oath which Professor Meiring will help you with. PROF. MEIRING Mr Makganye, will you please stand up and put your hand in the air and will you please repeat that, everything I say will be the truth, nothing but the truth, the whole truth, so help me God. LIZO MAKGANYE (sworn states) PROF. MEIRING You may sit down. L MAKGANYE Okay. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Tate. L MAKGANYE Okay. CHAIRPERSON Miss Joyce Seroke is going to be help you as you tell your story to us. I hand over to her. MISS SEROKE: Thank you, Sir. Mr Makganye, good morning. L MAKGANYE Good morning, Ma’am. MISS SEROKE We welcome you. Thank you for, I welcome you also and together with the person with you. You’re coming to tell us about the disappearance of Snowball on the 14th of April 1993. I ask you that shortly explain to us what happened on that day. L MAKGANYE On that day, there was a meeting at the Anglican Church. It was a youth meeting in that church. The agenda was about the project. When they were there, still there, the police came. They were led by Mr Moletsani who was the leader of the police. The chased out people outside the hall. I was not there. When Snowball went outside the hall, he raised his fist. The police said, we don’t want a person from Mandela. Mr Moletsani hit with a baton. Now I don’t know the name of that baton, but they called it donkey pale(?). Snowball was able to protect himself. There’s a certain boy called Motsepe. He’s a tall and stout man. He hit him with a gun butt. Snowball fell on the ground and there was a certain boy called Pelane who killed Snowball whilst he was on the ground. Snowball fainted thereafter. They took him to the police station, which was in a area called Braklaagte. When he arrived there they put him a sack and they assaulted him there. I’m disappointed because my, the witness who was there is not here. He’s sick and he’s not present to-day. If he was here I would ask for the opportunity for her to explain her side of the story. When she was asking the police some questions about Snowball they said to her, why did you not call him, Snowball to order ? My wife said she, Snowball did not tell us where he was going. MISS SEROKE What did he do ? L MAKGANYE But the police did not tell what he did. The police just said he’s not here. They said they were assaulting him because he’s coming from Mandela’s camp. Shortly, I would say, that is my story. Even myself, I went to ask Mr Moletsani that, what is my, what is the problem with my son because you’ve assaulted him and now you have arrested him ? Mr Moletsani told him that he’s naughty because he was raising his fist. This is not Mandela’s place. We are at Lefurutsi. I asked Mr Moletsani, why didn’t he just reprimand him. I asked him again, did he say anything ? Mr Moletsani said "nothing". Then I asked him, why did you assault him? Mr Moletsani said I assaulted him because he’s naughty. You’ve got to teach him how to behave. As I’m telling this story now he is mentally affected. He’s always in hospital and he’s always living under medication. He has a wife and he has a child. I am not able to support my child who has been assaulted by the Boputhatswana police. I asked Mr Moletsani many questions. Mr Moletsani told me that if the government said I should arrest the person, I do so. I asked him again, what did he do ? He just told me that he raised his fist and that has raised the whole problem. I don’t, I didn’t know that Mandela was a problem to us, or to everybody. I ask the government that this government, the previous government didn’t do anything for us because after he has been arrested a certain Magistrate who was there at the time after he left the witness box, when the Magistrate asked him, what did you do? Snowball said, I didn’t do anything, they just said I’ve raised my fist. The Magistrate instructed him that he should not raised a fist. You are guilty because you raised your fist. What did you do? After he left the witness box, he raised his fist again in court. The Magistrate was very angry because he told him that, are you still raising your fist? Then he told him that he’s going to re-arrest him again. Snowball’s brother asked the Magistrate, how can you arrest him by just raising a fist ? They were both arrested. Then I pleaded with the Magistrate that he should not arrest them, he should release them. The Magistrate co-operated, then after the court proceedings, he released them all. During the prosecution, I forgot the name of the Magistrate he didn’t allow my wife to give the statement because my wife was the one who was asking Mr Moletsani some questions. The second witness, the co-accused was put in the witness box but they didn’t take his testimony. There was a certain boy again who was called by the police. I asked the prosecutor some questions. I asked that boy as whether, are you one of the accused or were you together with those people because do you agree that you’re going to be the witness for, for Snowball ? When they adjourned again, I asked that boy again, are you a state witness ? This boy told me again that Snowball requested him to give evidence for him in his favour but I told the boy that, you are lying because Snowball didn’t ask you to come and witness for him. I allowed him to be a State witness but at the same time I wanted him to tow the line as whether he is testifying for Snowball or against Snowball. Then they just said, the case is dismissed, and they didn’t allow other witnesses to testify during that court case. That is how the case was dismissed. I want the State to compensate my son and again to support his children. I don’t need anything, I only need that the government should take care, should compensate Snowball and again to take care of his children. Thank you. I can tell many, many stories about the history, of our history because I’m one of the tribal council members. I’m one of those that when the police came, when the Mangope came and his soldiers came, they were talking to me and what they said to us, if you ask, they just said, if the President, when the President spoke, he has spoken. If he said we should arrest you, we should arrest you. A certain Captain called Moloi came and again a certain man , if I don’t remember, if I remember his name, his name correctly, his name is, Maraike. He was the Chief of the Defence Force. He used to come early in the morning, around half past eight. We would usually see them man the roadblocks in our villages with small cars and big cars. We used to request them that they should not man roadblocks. We showed them where they usually put their roadblocks far from the village and the children, our youth in our village were very angry with the police at that time. There is a certain man called Manyape whom we usually asked that the youth don’t want you here in our area. We will not be able to reprimand them if they want to do anything against the police. The youth were able to chase them away. The police, at that time, together with the soldiers were able to dismantle the tents there. It was around nine o’clock. During that same night they came with teargas. All those soldiers encompassed our village and shot us with the teargas and others died and others were crippled. You will hear among the witnesses to-day who are going to tell about the death of their children and of those children who were crippled. It’s not only my son that are crippled here. Others who were shot on their private parts, they don’t have private parts now. When we asked they just said, they just told us that whoever is adamant and doesn’t want to take the authority of Boputhatswana must leave but we denied to leave and we are still there in our own land. White people took our land whilst they found us being there. They would come and camp near our village where we were staying before. They would chase us out of our own land because they would say the government has told us that we should chase you out. When you tried to go to the government in Zeerust’s offices, that is where we used to come, when you arrived there they would just say, our government has spoken in Pretoria that you should leave because your areas are black spots. Our boundary area was at Mabutastad and in the west was next to the Botswana border. We have a certain area called Zinogana which was called Boputhatswana because it has been just created just yesterday. MISS SEROKE We just wanted to hear about what you have written in your statement but now you’re telling us about the land. We see now that, we’re going to ask you about what happened to Snowball and it seems you, you have given us the complete picture. I would ask you to wait for questions now. You said in your statement Snowball and together with the youth met and they were talking about Boskop project. Can you explain about that project? What was that project about ? L MAKGANYE It was a project about agriculture. Talking about livestock and to sell eggs and to plough vegetables. Even now a plot which we are now going on with the project. After that, we were not ale to continue there because we had many fights. MISS SEROKE This project you are telling us about, was it part of the political activity? L MAKGANYE No, it was a village project. It has nothing to do with politics. I don’t know anything about politics. And the police came and chased them out and assaulted them. MISS SEROKE What was the cause that the police should do that ? L MAKGANYE What made them to do that is there was a struggle in our village because Mangope wanted us to be his people and to be amalgamated in Boputhatswana and we rejected that request and he came to build a power station in our village. MISS SEROKE So you denied to be amalgamated in Boputhatswana. L MAKGANYE Yes, we denied because we even went as far a Pretoria and Bloemfontein. MISS SEROKE When you said Snowball raised his fist, was he, in which organization was he in? L MAKGANYE I don’t know because we people of the African National Congress at the time we knew that if you’d raise a black power sign at any time. I didn’t know that Snowball by raising a black power sign. I don’t know the sign of that raising of the fist because the police just said, if you raise your fist you are a member of the ANC. MISS SEROKE Was he a member of the ANC or not ? L MAKGANYE We were ANC members and he was ANC members and he’s still an ANC member, even now. MISS SEROKE Where is Snowball now ? L MAKGANYE He’s in Johannesburg. We took him to Baragwanath Hospital and he was better. He was working, he’s working at the government offices. At that time, during the political strife he ran to a certain area and when he went back, he started to work at that government office. He is working even though he is sick. Even if he is sick but the government allow him to go on working. MISS SEROKE Is he still working by now ? L MAKGANYE Yes, he’s working. Other days he’s working, other days he goes to the hospital because he doesn’t get sick all the time. MISS SEROKE I see in your statements that there are medical reports and reports from the Magistrate. I want to ask about Esther Makganye. Is she the mother to this, is she the mother to the child ? L MAKGANYE Yes, she was the mother to the child. She was there when Snowball was assaulted. Esther ran away behind the clinic, but the one who was talking to the police was Elizabeth Makganye, who is my wife. MISS SEROKE In your statement again I see, is Mr Tallie who was the Chairperson of, of that meeting. Did Mr Tallie and Esther give statements ? L MAKGANYE Yes, they did hand over their statements. They only allowed Mr Tallie to give their statement. MISS SEROKE I was talking about statements for the Truth Commission no, not, not about the Magistrate. L MAKGANYE They were not there when the Truth Commission staff came but they may be available if the opportunity arises for them to hand over their statements. As I said, she’s not, she doesn’t want to come because, because the police would shoot them because she said the police told them that they should not be seen again around the Magistrate offices. MISS SEROKE We’d want Esther to meet with our staff or our statement taker because there will be no police who would harass her. We would ask her to give her statement. L MAKGANYE The person who can give a true statement is Elizabeth because she confronted the police and though Esther was there but she didn’t engage the police at that time. She saw with her eyes but she was at a distance but she saw whatever has happened there. MISS SEROKE We will try ask our statement takers to get her to make a statement. We will try to tell them that they should testify in this regard. Those who have assaulted Snowball, Abraham Maletsani, Elias Pilane, are they still there ? L MAKGANYE Yes, they’re still alive. MISS SEROKE Are they still working as police ? L MAKGANYE Yes, they’re still working in Boputhatswana. Molentsani knows where they are working. MISS SEROKE We thank you. I’ve finished, I would ask our Chairperson to continue. Professor Meiring. PROF. MEIRING Mr Makganye, thank you for telling the story. There are a number of things I would like to ask still. You said that your son... (interrupted) MISS SEROKE You are free, you can ask your questions, Sir. PROF. MEIRING Thank you very much. Your son is married. Was he married before or after the torture ? L MAKGANYE He married before he was tortured. As you know that our children just sit together and then after that they made a legal wedding. Then during that time even before then they were just sitting together but after that they married, they married legally. PROF. MEIRING The child, is that a boy or a girl ? L MAKGANYE Only, she’s a daughter. PROF. MEIRING What is her name ? L MAKGANYE I cannot remember her name. I cannot remember her name, she’s still young and because they’re staying in Johannesburg, they’re not staying with us, therefore I cannot remember her name. PROF. MEIRING No problem, we will get it from them. You said that he is, he can still work, what type of work does he do at the government office ? L MAKGANYE He’s working as a messenger. Last time when he came, he said he’s studying for electricity and he’s engaged in the electrical work in the government offices. PROF. MEIRING He has some training, he went to school and he had training as, was he being trained as an electrician ? L MAKGANYE Because he’s there and I’m here, I don’t know as whether he was taken for some courses but he’s well versed with you know, with education. Yes, he did go to school. PROF. MEIRING What standard did he complete? Was he in standard six or eight or nine ? L MAKGANYE He passed standard eight, Sir. PROF. MEIRING Eight ? L MAKGANYE Then after standard eight he was engaged in the struggle, then he left school to other areas. PROF. MEIRING Thank you so much. Those were the questions I wanted to ask. Thank you, Sir. L MAKGANYE Let me not speak much. If I forgot other things, when I remember them I should be given an opportunity to, to put them forward. Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON I just want to ask you one more question. I just want to understand... (interrupted) L MAKGANYE You are free to ask me some questions, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You said earlier on when you were speaking to Miss Seroke, that, that there was a struggle of the people of Braklaagte against incorporation but that was around 1988, 1989... (interrupted) Tate, sorry, can I finish - but this happened in 1993. What was happening in 1993 that made the police come in such large numbers back into the community and take such action against the people ? L MAKGANYE They did so because we did not want to be incorporated in Boputhatswana and that we should enter. CHAIRPERSON But incorporation had taken place already. We’re talking about 1993, we’re not talking about 1989. Incorporation had taken place already. L MAKGANYE Do you say we were incorporated in Boputhatswana ? CHAIRPERSON Yes. L MAKGANYE Do you say we were amalgamated in Boputhatswana in 1993? We didn’t agree. When they, immediately they said we were incorporated, we did not agree. We continued with our struggle because we knew that there was nothing called Boputhatswana, it’s part of South Africa. Boputhatswana just changed yesterday. We denied that we should be amalgamated to Boputhatswana. They did so on their own but we agreed, we disagreed. They assaulted us, so as to force us to be incorporated into Boputhatswana. CHAIRPERSON Can I then just ask why you and the people were so much against incorporation into Boputhatswana ? Why did you want to stay part of South Africa at that stage ? L MAKGANYE We see that it was not proper to be incorporated into Boputhatswana. CHAIRPERSON Can you add a little more to that Tate, what do you mean , not proper? L MAKGANYE The reasons for our rejection is that they didn’t negotiate with us. They didn’t tell us that we are from Boputhatswana, we are going to remove you from that area. After we have spent our monies and our resources so they just came and say, if a person just say, go out of your house, you cannot just take it easily. What can you do if somebody just come into your house and say, leave that house whilst you’re still in love with that house? CHAIRPERSON Thank you Tate, we don’t have any further questions. I want to thank you for coming here to-day and sharing your understanding of what happened in this area as well as what happened to your son. We’re very glad to hear that despite the treatment that he received at the hands of the then police, Bop police, he has made a sufficiently strong recovery to be able to work in Johannesburg and we have heard your statement... (interrupted) L MAKGANYE He’s not completely healed. He’s working because he’s struggling. CHAIRPERSON I understand that Tate, but he is working, that’s the important thing, that he has made that sort of recovery but thank you very much for coming and we will come back to you in due course.