hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-06 ZEERUST JOHN N MOKGATLANYANE JB3683 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56192&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/zeerust/zeemokga.htm CHAIRPERSON Can I please call John Mokgatlanyane. MISS SEROKE Speaks to John Mokgatlanyane in Tswana. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Miss Seroke. Can I also say that if there’s anyone in the audience who wishes to have on of the headphones I see there are some extra ones here on the chair in front. If you, if it will assist you in understanding what’s going on. Good. John, good afternoon. NR MOKGATLANYANE Afternoon, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You’ve been, you’ve been here since early this morning. I, I thank you for your patience. John, Dr Ally is going to be helping you as you tell your story, but I would like Professor Piet Meiring just to assist you in, in taking the oath please. Will you please stand. PROF. MEIRING John, will you please repeat after me, that everything I say is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. JOHN MOKGATLANYANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Dr Ally. DR ALLY Thank you, and welcome to you, John. You, you’re coming to speak about a very horrific experience. Something that happened to you, personally, in 1991, in January 1991, a period, or a time when there was great unrest in the former homeland, former Boputhatswana. This was a year after the ANC had been unbanned in the country as a whole, but there was still serious problems in Bop about the rights of the ANC to actually operate freely. It produced a lot of conflict and a lot of people were caught up in this conflict and you were one of those. So, I’d like you just to give us an account of what actually happened to you during that time. MR MOKGATLANYANE It was on the 8th, in 1991. It was on Tuesday. We went to Mr Selomi’s house. We were going to pray, because his house was burnt, and the police came. When they arrived, they shot us with teargas and rubber bullets and living bullets. After that, we dispersed and others were injured and I was also a victim, because they shot me and they took me to the hospital at Lefurutsi. That’s all. DR ALLY How old were you at the time of this incident ? Can you remember ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I was twenty years old. DR ALLY And what were you doing at the time ? Were you at school ? Were you working ? What was your ... MR MOKGATLANYANE I was not working. DR ALLY Were you at school ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I was not at school. DR ALLY So you were unemployed ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes.... DR ALLY Now you say that, that there was this, a prayer meeting, right, because the house of this family had been burnt ? Was this, did this prayer meeting, did it, was there any kind of political aspect to it ? Was it, was it also about, about the political conflict taking place at the time ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, there was political conflict at the time. DR ALLY This prayer meeting at this house. The man whose house was burnt, was he seen as a - was he politically active ? MR MOKGATLANYANE He was not politically active. DR ALLY Why was his, why was his house burnt ? MR MOKGATLANYANE We don’t know how it was burnt. DR ALLY Did you have any idea of who burnt the house ? Were there any rumours, any stories about who was responsible for burning his house ? This is Mr Soluma, this is the person you’re speaking about is that correct ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I don’t know the people who burnt the house. DR ALLY The person whose house was burnt you said the name was it Soluma ? Is that the name that you mentioned ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, that’s true. DR ALLY And you don’t know why the house was burnt, and you don’t know, you don’t have an idea who was supposed to have burnt the house ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I don’t know how to put it. DR ALLY Put it the best way that you, that you can, whichever way you want to put it and we and we will see if we can work out what you’re trying to say. MR MOKGATLANYANE His house was burnt because he was supporting Papsi Sebogodi. DR ALLY So it was part of this conflict with these two Chiefs, that we’ve heard about ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, that’s true. It was part of this conflict between the two Chiefs. DR ALLY And you were twenty years old at the time. Were you involved in aany structures, any youth structures, or political structures or any kind ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I was a member of the African National Congress at the time. DR ALLY When did you become a member of the African National Congress ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I, the answer is not clear, Sir. DR ALLY Was this, sorry, we didn’t, I did hear you ? When did you say you became a member of the African National Congress ? MR MOKGATLANYANE 99. That’s 1990, Sir. DR ALLY Thanks. So at this house, at this prayer meeting, was it known that these were ANC people or supporters of the ANC, who also supported the Chief, Segodi ? Was that the nature of that prayer meeting ? Is that correct ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes that’s true. DR ALLY Now, when the police arrived, the Bop, the Boputhatswana police did they give any instructions, to the people there ? Did they say, you have five minutes to disperse, this is an illegal gathering? What actually happened when the police arrived ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I heard a loudspeaker talking, saying we should disperse. Whilst we were trying to disperse then they started shooting us with the rubber bullets and teargas. Then others were injured, then some were arrested. DR ALLY Was anybody killed on that day, do you know ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, he’s there. DR ALLY What about the people who were killed, what do you know about that day ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I know about George Segwati, that’s all. DR ALLY How did George Segwati die ? MR MOKGATLANYANE He was shot and then he was taken to hospital, then he died in hospital. I, we were in the same van when we were taken to the hospital. DR ALLY So, you were taken to hospital and at the hospital, what did they find out, had happened to you? MR MOKGATLANYANE (speaks in Tswana) DR ALLY Sorry I didn’t hear that. Just repeat that please. Ok, no never mind, let’s continue. When you got to hospital, they discovered that you’d actually been, been shot ... (interrupted) MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, they saw that I was shot. DR ALLY Right, and tell us about that. Where had you been shot ? MR MOKGATLANYANE On my private parts, Sir. DR ALLY Was that live ammunition, or was that the rubber bullets, who, what, what, what had you been shot, what had you been shot with ? MR MOKGATLANYANE It was a live bullet, Sir. DR ALLY So when you got to the hospital, what did they have to do to you, because of this, because of the way you had been shot ? MR MOKGATLANYANE On my way to the hospital I fainted therefore I don’t remember what happened in the hospital. DR ALLY But you had an operation when you were in hospital. Yes? They operated on you? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I was operated. DR ALLY And were your testicles removed as a result of the way you had been shot? Is that correct? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, that’s true. DR ALLY And did you have to continue to go into the hospital for treatment after that? What happened ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I continued at the hospital for medical attention but I was never better. I was taken to Harankwe hospital. At Harankwe they tried, they did try to help me. After I was released, I went to Johannesburg hospital, General hospital. That’s where I was a little bit better. DR ALLY And now, what’s the situation ? What’s happening to you and what’s your health like ? MR MOKGATLANYANE It’s no more the same as before, before I was shot but now I feel many pains. When I think of what has happened to me I become emotionally disturbed. DR ALLY And do you continue to go to hospital for any, for any treatment still, or are you on medication of any kind ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I’m on medication. I collect my tablets at the clinic. DR ALLY And did you ever have any counselling ? Did you ever have anyone come and speak to you about what happened and go through these events with you ? Did you have anything like that at, at any point? A social worker or a councillor or a nurse, anybody speak to you about what happened to you, explain to you the meaning of all of this? MR MOKGATLANYANE I didn’t get social workers but I met social workers in Johnnesburg, because I was sent there by the lawyers. DR ALLY And the social workers in Johannesburg ? What did they do ? Did they speak to you ? Did they ... MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, they spoke with me, then they took me to general hospital. Before I went to Johannesburg, I went through to Johannesburg General hospital through the lawyers, then they took me to a specialist and then from there I was taken to the social workers. Then the social workers sent me to the General hospital in Johannesburg. DR ALLY Do you have any contact with the social, with social workers now ? Do, do you still speak to anybody ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I don’t speak to them by now. DR ALLY Now tell us about this with the lawyers. Is this, are these the lawyers who are representing you? Have you laid charges against the former Boputhatswana police? MR MOKGATLANYANE After we were shot, we were arrested for public violence, then we were taken to hospital. After coming back from hospital, I was sent back to prison. DR ALLY Sent back to prison on and how long did they keep, how long were you in prison? MR MOKGATLANYANE I don’t remember how long but I think it’s four days. DR ALLY You were charged with public violence. That was the charge against you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I was charged with public violence. DR ALLY Did you ever have to appear in court ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I did appear in court. DR ALLY Tell us about that, what happened? You had a lawyer representing you and, and, and others who had been charged, is that not so ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I was represented by a lawyer. DR ALLY Can you tell us about what happened in court ? MR MOKGATLANYANE We were found guilty about public violence. We were sentenced for five years but they were set aside. DR ALLY So it was a suspended sentence ? MR MOKGATLANYANE That’s, yes, that’s true. DR ALLY And did you have to pay any fines or anything like that ? MR MOKGATLANYANE No, I didn’t pay any fine. DR ALLY In your statement, I was trying to see the name of the lawyer. I don’t see you mention the name of the lawyer. Can you remember who the lawyer was. who represented you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE We were represented by Mam Rebenbach. He stays in Zeerust. Reben, Rebenbach. If that is a clear pronunciation. Breyt, Breytenbach, I believe. DR ALLY Now this suspended sentence, for how long was it suspended because you know, when they normally do this, they say five years suspended for eighteen months, for one year, can you, can you remember more specifically the actual sentence after you were found guilty? MR MOKGATLANYANE We were sentenced for five years. DR ALLY Right, that was suspended. Right ? The five years was suspended? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, it was suspended. DR ALLY Can you remember if they said for how long. In order words, if you commit something similar in a year or two years, you can then get the five years. That’s how it normally works. Can you remember, if you can’t, that’s fine because we can get those details from the lawyer. If you can’t remember then don’t worry. If you can then that is helpful to us. MR MOKGATLANYANE ................ five. DR ALLY OK. And did you ever consider laying a charge yourself, against the police for, for what happened to you? Did you ever discuss with your lawyer for example ? MR MOKGATLANYANE No, we didn’t. DR ALLY Did you know who these policemen were, who came and fired ? Can you, would you be able to identify any one of them, more than one ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I will not identify them, because it, the situation was confusing. I saw some policemen in court. DR ALLY You, didn’t know any of them at the time and you still, and you say now, you wouldn’t be able to, to name anyone or identify anyone? MR MOKGATLANYANE The one I know is Captain Masisako. DR ALLY Where is this Captain ? ... (interrupted) Where is he, where is based ? MR MOKGATLANYANE He was at Motsweti police station. I don’t know where he is now. DR ALLY Can you tell us a little bit about your present situation now. How do you cope ? How do you survive ? Who provides for you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I’m struggling in life because I’m sick, I’m not able to work for myself and that is not possible because of my health state and at home they’re struggling also. DR ALLY Who do you live with presently ? MR MOKGATLANYANE My mother and my sisters. DR ALLY And they take care of you, your mother and your sisters take care of you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE That’s true. DR ALLY And you personally, what that you hope can be done in your situation ? When you came to the Truth Commission, what is it that you, why were you coming to the Truth Commission ? MR MOKGATLANYANE My desire is financial help. Maybe I’ll forget the problems I have. DR ALLY And what about schooling ? What standard did you complete at school? MR MOKGATLANYANE I passed the standard three. DR ALLY And then you stopped going to school ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I stopped. DR ALLY Why, did something happen that made you stop ? What ? MR MOKGATLANYANE We are struggling at home. We’re living, we’re living below the bread line, therefore they didn’t have means to take us to school. DR ALLY Any political issues or community issues what ... MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I’m still politically active. DR ALLY Thank you very much. I’ll give you back to, to the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Professor Meiring. PROF. MEIRING Only two very brief questions. One is to do with your emotional state. You said that you are still emotionally very disturbed and you’re not receiving any treatment at the moment. Would you like treatment ? Do you feel that you need treatment for that ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I’m in need of help, Sir. PROF. MEIRING ...................... is at night ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I have bad mess, at night. PROF. MEIRING And just a last thing. You mentioned the name of George Segwati who was shot on the very same day as you were shot. Was he killed ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, he was killed. PROF. MEIRING Do you know if his parents or if his family have made a statement ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I don’t know, Sir. PROF. MEIRING Can I ask you, if you have, if you still know where the people live where the Sekwati family live, that you will advise them that we would like a statement from them, telling about their son ? MR MOKGATLANYANE: I know where they’re staying. PROF. MEIRING Then we ask you to please go to them and say that we would like to have a statement from them. MR MOKGATLANYANE I’ll do so. CHAIRPERSON John, thank you very much. Is there anything else you want to say ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, there’s something I want to say. The last thing I want to say is. I wanted to ask, on my behalf to Mr Mangope, that how did he come to Lekobo in our area. Can you ask Mr Mangope, because many things which has happened at home, if it was not because of him we could not have been in the problems we have. There could not have been somebody who has been crippled. So, can you ask Mr Mangope and Captain Selike. To ask them why did they send police in our area, because we were living in peace and there were no conflict before. There could not have been a person who has been crippled but immediately they entered our village, the conflict started. We were living in peace but immediately they came, that’s when we started to have problems. I thought maybe if were, as I was saying this, Mr Selike or Mr Mangope, they could have been here, they could have been here, so that they should be asked many questions that, what, what were the reasons to them to come to Lekobo, because it seems they are responsible for our suffering. That, that’s the thing which disturbed me all the time. There was no - there, there were no houses which were burnt before and there were no people who were killed before but immediately they came in, the people were incarcerated, they were imprisoned and our parents were staying in the veld and others were running to, to the location. CHAIRPERSON John, thank you very much. I don’t think any words can describe what happened to you at the time and I’m sure what has happened to you since. You have so eloquently said what your family situation is at the moment and I hope that within the new South Africa there is place for you to actually continue some form of education and to be able to get a job. I’m sure that Professor Meiring has listened very carefully in terms of your needs and in time we will come back to you on that. We wish you well in the future. Thank you very much for coming. MR MOKGATLANYANE Thank you, Sir.