hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-06 ZEERUST JOHN N MOKGATLANYANE JB3683 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56192&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/zeerust/zeemokga.htm CHAIRPERSON Can I please call John Mokgatlanyane. MISS SEROKE Speaks to John Mokgatlanyane in Tswana. CHAIRPERSON NR MOKGATLANYANE Afternoon, Sir. CHAIRPERSON PROF. MEIRING John, will you please repeat after me, that everything I say is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. JOHN MOKGATLANYANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Dr Ally. DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY How old were you at the time of this incident ? Can you remember ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I was twenty years old. DR ALLY And what were you doing at the time ? Were you at school ? Were you working ? What was your ... MR MOKGATLANYANE I was not working. DR ALLY Were you at school ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I was not at school. DR ALLY So you were unemployed ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes.... DR ALLY Now you say that, that there was this, a prayer meeting, right, because the house of this family had been burnt ? Was this, did this prayer meeting, did it, was there any kind of political aspect to it ? Was it, was it also about, about the political conflict taking place at the time ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, there was political conflict at the time. DR ALLY This prayer meeting at this house. The man whose house was burnt, was he seen as a - was he politically active ? MR MOKGATLANYANE He was not politically active. DR ALLY Why was his, why was his house burnt ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY The person whose house was burnt you said the name was it Soluma ? Is that the name that you mentioned ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE His house was burnt because he was supporting Papsi Sebogodi. DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And you were twenty years old at the time. Were you involved in aany structures, any youth structures, or political structures or any kind ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I was a member of the African National Congress at the time. DR ALLY When did you become a member of the African National Congress ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I, the answer is not clear, Sir. DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Thanks. So at this house, at this prayer meeting, was it known that these were ANC people or supporters of the ANC, who also supported the Chief, Segodi ? Was that the nature of that prayer meeting ? Is that correct ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Now, when the police arrived, the Bop, the Boputhatswana police did they give any instructions, to the people there ? Did they say, you have five minutes to disperse, this is an illegal gathering? What actually happened when the police arrived ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I heard a loudspeaker talking, saying we should disperse. Whilst we were trying to disperse then they started shooting us with the rubber bullets and teargas. Then others were injured, then some were arrested. DR ALLY Was anybody killed on that day, do you know ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY What about the people who were killed, what do you know about that day ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY How did George Segwati die ? MR MOKGATLANYANE He was shot and then he was taken to hospital, then he died in hospital. I, we were in the same van when we were taken to the hospital. DR ALLY So, you were taken to hospital and at the hospital, what did they find out, had happened to you? MR MOKGATLANYANE (speaks in Tswana) DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, they saw that I was shot. DR ALLY Right, and tell us about that. Where had you been shot ? MR MOKGATLANYANE On my private parts, Sir. DR ALLY Was that live ammunition, or was that the rubber bullets, who, what, what, what had you been shot, what had you been shot with ? MR MOKGATLANYANE It was a live bullet, Sir. DR ALLY So when you got to the hospital, what did they have to do to you, because of this, because of the way you had been shot ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY But you had an operation when you were in hospital. Yes? They operated on you? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I was operated. DR ALLY And were your testicles removed as a result of the way you had been shot? Is that correct? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And did you have to continue to go into the hospital for treatment after that? What happened ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And do you continue to go to hospital for any, for any treatment still, or are you on medication of any kind ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And did you ever have any counselling ? Did you ever have anyone come and speak to you about what happened and go through these events with you ? Did you have anything like that at, at any point? A social worker or a councillor or a nurse, anybody speak to you about what happened to you, explain to you the meaning of all of this? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And the social workers in Johannesburg ? What did they do ? Did they speak to you ? Did they ... MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, they spoke with me, then they took me to general hospital. Before I went to Johannesburg, I went through to Johannesburg General hospital through the lawyers, then they took me to a specialist and then from there I was taken to the social workers. Then the social workers sent me to the General hospital in Johannesburg. DR ALLY Do you have any contact with the social, with social workers now ? Do, do you still speak to anybody ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Now tell us about this with the lawyers. Is this, are these the lawyers who are representing you? Have you laid charges against the former Boputhatswana police? MR MOKGATLANYANE After we were shot, we were arrested for public violence, then we were taken to hospital. After coming back from hospital, I was sent back to prison. DR ALLY Sent back to prison on and how long did they keep, how long were you in prison? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY You were charged with public violence. That was the charge against you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I was charged with public violence. DR ALLY Did you ever have to appear in court ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I did appear in court. DR ALLY Tell us about that, what happened? You had a lawyer representing you and, and, and others who had been charged, is that not so ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I was represented by a lawyer. DR ALLY Can you tell us about what happened in court ? MR MOKGATLANYANE We were found guilty about public violence. We were sentenced for five years but they were set aside. DR ALLY So it was a suspended sentence ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And did you have to pay any fines or anything like that ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE We were represented by Mam Rebenbach. He stays in Zeerust. Reben, Rebenbach. If that is a clear pronunciation. Breyt, Breytenbach, I believe. DR ALLY Now this suspended sentence, for how long was it suspended because you know, when they normally do this, they say five years suspended for eighteen months, for one year, can you, can you remember more specifically the actual sentence after you were found guilty? MR MOKGATLANYANE We were sentenced for five years. DR ALLY Right, that was suspended. Right ? The five years was suspended? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, it was suspended. DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE ................ five. DR ALLY OK. And did you ever consider laying a charge yourself, against the police for, for what happened to you? Did you ever discuss with your lawyer for example ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Did you know who these policemen were, who came and fired ? Can you, would you be able to identify any one of them, more than one ? MR MOKGATLANYANE I will not identify them, because it, the situation was confusing. I saw some policemen in court. DR ALLY MR MOKGATLANYANE The one I know is Captain Masisako. DR ALLY Where is this Captain ? ... (interrupted) Where is he, where is based ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Can you tell us a little bit about your present situation now. How do you cope ? How do you survive ? Who provides for you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Who do you live with presently ? MR MOKGATLANYANE My mother and my sisters. DR ALLY And they take care of you, your mother and your sisters take care of you ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And you personally, what that you hope can be done in your situation ? When you came to the Truth Commission, what is it that you, why were you coming to the Truth Commission ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY And what about schooling ? What standard did you complete at school? MR MOKGATLANYANE I passed the standard three. DR ALLY And then you stopped going to school ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I stopped. DR ALLY Why, did something happen that made you stop ? What ? MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY Any political issues or community issues what ... MR MOKGATLANYANE DR ALLY CHAIRPERSON Professor Meiring. PROF. MEIRING MR MOKGATLANYANE PROF. MEIRING ...................... is at night ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, I have bad mess, at night. PROF. MEIRING And just a last thing. You mentioned the name of George Segwati who was shot on the very same day as you were shot. Was he killed ? MR MOKGATLANYANE Yes, he was killed. PROF. MEIRING Do you know if his parents or if his family have made a statement ? MR MOKGATLANYANE PROF. MEIRING Can I ask you, if you have, if you still know where the people live where the Sekwati family live, that you will advise them that we would like a statement from them, telling about their son ? PROF. MEIRING Then we ask you to please go to them and say that we would like to have a statement from them. MR MOKGATLANYANE CHAIRPERSON John, thank you very much. Is there anything else you want to say ? MR MOKGATLANYANE CHAIRPERSON MR MOKGATLANYANE Thank you, Sir.