hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-06 ZEERUST NTEBANG N SEFULARO JBO725 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56195&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/zeerust/zeeseful.htm CHAIRPERSON Can I just ask you to turn volume down on those boxes, I think there’s a lot of - Mrs Sefularo, good morning. MRS SEFULARO Good morning, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you for coming. MRS SEFULARO Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Dr Russel Ally is going to be assisting you as you tell your story, but before I hand you over to him, can I ask Professor Meiring to help you take the oath. If you can just stand please. PROF. MEIRING Sorry, maybe you should just stand again. Will you please say, declare that everything you will say, you will be saying will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. NTEBANG SEFULARO (sworn states) PROF. MEIRING Thank you very much. DR ALLY Mrs Sefularo, good morning. MRS SEFULARO Good morning, Sir. DR ALLY You’re coming to speak to us about a very painful experience. An incident which took place in January, 1991 that affected you and your entire family and also led to the death of one of your children, Surprise Sefularo. I’m going to ask you now, in your own words, if you will just go through what happened on that day of the 5th of January 1991. MRS SEFULARO (in Xhosa) CHAIRPERSON Ma’am, can I just stop you for one minute, we don’t seem to be getting the translations. It’s now okay. It’s now clear ? MRS SEFULARO On the 5th of January 1991, we were asleep at that time. I was woken up by a noise of people. Thereafter, I heard my window panes breaking. Immediately people were gathered inside the house, then I could see that these people were fighting. They came to me and stuck me with a knife. After that, I tried to hide myself. I couldn’t help it because I had five children in the house at that time. Immediately thereafter I went outside to look for my children. I found three children, the fourth one is Surprise whom I didn’t find at that time. I was helpless at that time, I was having one child with my right hand and the other one on my left hand. Then we went to Mr Tiro’s house. Mr Tiro took me to the hospital. Whilst I was on the way, the ambulance took me to the hospital, I was made an operation to remove the blade from my left hand. Two children slept in the hospital for two days. The other one slept for three days in the hospital. That’s how far I go. DR ALLY I just want to ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind, mainly based on DR ALLY I just want to ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind, mainly based on your statement. You say that more than thirty people entered your house that evening, is that correct? Is that what you remember ? MRS SEFULARO That’s true Sir. DR ALLY Now you say that you later learnt that these were ANC people. How did you find out that information ? MRS SEFULARO I learnt that during the struggle, they denied that our children should go to school and those who were working at the government at that time, in Boputhatswana, could easily be killed. One of them was at school and the other one was a policeman in the Bop police. DR ALLY No, Ma’am, maybe you didn’t understand me correctly. You say in your statement that these people who came to your house, who attacked you and your family, who set fire to your house, who stabbed you, who you believe are responsible for the death of your daughter, you say that you learnt that they were ANC members. Now, did somebody tell you that or did you identify any of the people ? How did you find out or learn that these were ANC people ? MRS SEFULARO I just learnt from my own observation that they were, that they were ANC members. DR ALLY Can you explain a little bit to us? How do you mean, your own observations? Did they, did they have ANC T-shirts on or what was it that convinced you that they were actually members of the ANC, or ANC supporters? DR ALLY My observation was based on the following : that when there were gatherings, there would, the ANC people would go to, house to house but they could not come to my house all the time. DR ALLY Ma’am these, of these thirty people, did you recognise anybody. Do you know anyone of that group that came to your house ? MRS SEFULARO I was not able to identify anyone of them because they just broke windows, came inside and assaulted me and my family. DR ALLY So you wouldn’t know if they were from your area or another area or anything like that ? MRS SEFULARO I was not able to see as whether they come from our village or the surrounding areas. DR ALLY Now you say that you were, you were stabbed by one of these people who came into your house stabbed you? MRS SEFULARO Yes, on the shoulder, I was stabbed on the shoulder and the blade left inside the flesh. DR ALLY You say that you believe that one of the reasons why these people came to your house, one of the possible reasons was because you had a son who was in the police, who was part of the Boputhatswana police. Where was that son at, at ... (interrupted) MRS SEFULARO The other one was attending school whilst the schools were closed in our area. DR ALLY But one of your sons were still attending school, even though there was a boycott ? MRS SEFULARO He was attending school at Tsongotwane village. DR ALLY Okay. Now your who, who is the policeman, where was he at the time of this incident ? MRS SEFULARO He was Hammaskraal training college at that time. DR ALLY Now, before this incident, before this night of January, did you ever have any other conflicts or confrontations with people in your village ? MRS SEFULARO People were leaving the area to Zeerust and other areas and then we were left, we were the only ones who were left in that area at that time. DR ALLY I don’t, you say people had fled from the area, is that what you’re saying ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, they fled to Zeerust. Only us who, who lost their children left in our area. DR ALLY Why did these people leave, go to Zeerust? MRS SEFULARO I don’t know the reasons behind their fleeing, Sir. DR ALLY Now, I ask whether, before this incident your family had been targeted in any way. Was there any, did any people say that, that your family was in danger because of your son being in the police and your other son going to school? Were there any threats made against your family, or anything like that ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, we had threats because my child was attending school whilst the children in the village were boycotting school. DR ALLY And do you know any of the people who made these threats ? Are you able to identify any of these people ? MRS SEFULARO My child was telling me all those threats but I told her that she should go to school. I would take him very early in the morning to go to school every day. DR ALLY Now your son, this son who told you about these threats, would he be able to give names do you think, would he be able to identify the people ? MRS SEFULARO No, he didn’t tell me names. He was just telling me that people in the village were making threats. He was not telling me names. DR ALLY Now this Mr Tiro, your neighbour who took you to the hospital, what did he do? Was he, is he a family member? MRS SEFULARO He’s staying at a distance from my house because I knew that he has a car that he can help me to take me to the hospital. DR ALLY Now can you tell us about your daughter who was, who was killed, about the circumstances of her death ? How was she killed and where was she found ? MRS SEFULARO I didn’t see the death of my, I didn’t experience the death of my child. After I left the hospital he was stabbed and thrown just next to the toilet. DR ALLY Now did the police ever, ever investigate this incident ? Did they come and take statements from you ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, the police came to take statements from us and I was unable to go to court because I didn’t know one policeman who, one of those policeman who came to my house. DR ALLY Sorry, can you repeat that. I didn’t understand. You said you couldn’t go to court because you couldn’t identify anybody but what about this policeman who came to your house ? You said something about him. MRS SEFULARO I didn’t go to court because I didn’t have any testimony against people who attacked me. DR ALLY And the police themselves, did they try and investigate this matter ? Do you have any knowledge of that ? Did they go around questioning people, seeing if there were witnesses , trying to find out what happened ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, the police did try to investigate in the village, then people were saying the houses were destroyed by the police. If the house is destroyed the people would say it’s the police who did that, so yes, the police did investigate. DR ALLY And nothing happened ? Up until to-day have you heard anything more from the police? MRS SEFULARO They, they didn’t tell me of their findings but they just said they were looking for the child for a long time. DR ALLY Of the incident you say that there was this conflict between the ANC and you say everybody else who was not a member of the ANC was targeted by the ANC ? Can you just ... MRS SEFULARO That’s true, Sir. DR ALLY Can you just tell us a little bit about why you say this? What makes you feel this or believe this ? MRS SEFULARO Can you please repeat your question, Sir. DR ALLY What makes you say this, you say that anybody who was not a member of the ANC, was targeted. Now, why do you make this statement, what was happening that makes you convinced that this is actually what was happening ? MRS SEFULARO At the timewere forced to join ANC, all of us you were forced to join even if you are a member of the Christian Democratic Party, you were forced to join . I had a neighbour whom ANC used to go to but they couldn’t come to my house. DR ALLY You personally. Were you forced to join the ANC ? MRS SEFULARO Nobody forced me to join ANC. DR ALLY Where you a member of any other political party at the time ? MRS SEFULARO Yes. DR ALLY Which party ? MRS SEFULARO United Christian Democratic Party, Sir. DR ALLY Believe that was Mangope’s party. Yes ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, that’s true. DR ALLY And people knew this, in your village ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, they knew very well. DR ALLY Were you in any way, were you just a member of this party or were you an official ? Did you have any position in this Christian Democratic Party, or just an ordinary member ? MRS SEFULARO I was just an ordinary member. The people in the village were saying I’m recruiting people for Mangope but I was just an ordinary member. DR ALLY And were you a member of this party for a long time ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, that’s true. DR ALLY And your son who was at college, who was with the Boputhatswana police, was he also a member of this party ? MRS SEFULARO I don’t know because everyone went to an organisation of his or her choice. DR ALLY And now, can you tell us what the situation is like in your village where you live, are there still these old tensions and conflicts of the past or what is actually happening now ? MRS SEFULARO Everything is well now in the village, even though you’d not know what’s in the hut of another person but with my observation, everything is fine. DR ALLY I would just appeal to you that maybe your son who was at school who you said was the one who told you about these threats being made against the family, that, if he could maybe assist us, if he could make a statement and maybe if he knew some names which we could follow up on, to try and, to, to try and get some picture of what was, of what was going on and, and perhaps of these thirty people who you mention who came into your house maybe the identities or names of one or two of them so, that, in this way hopefully some answers about what happened to your daughter, can be found. But thank you, thank you very much for coming to speak to us about another side of the conflict which is also very important for us to hear. I’ll give you back to the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Dr Ally, Professor Meiring and then Miss Joyce Seroke. PROF. MEIRING Mrs Sefularo, thank you for telling your story. I want to ask a number of questions about your personal circumstances, if it’s good with you. The first question I would like to ask has to do with about your daughter, with your daughter, Surprise. How old was she when she was stabbed to death ? MRS SEFULARO She was born in 1973, I’m not able to tell how old was she in 1991. PROF. MEIRING Was she in school at that stage ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, she was schooling. PROF. MEIRING What standard was she in ? MRS SEFULARO She was doing standard eight. PROF. MEIRING There was, she didn’t have any children at that stage. She was too young ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, she didn’t have a child. PROF. MEIRING Thank you so much. I want to ask about yourself. You were in hospital for two weeks and then you could go home. Was it ever necessary to return to the hospital afterwards for treatment ? MRS SEFULARO I was going for treatment at the clinic and again at the special doctors. yes Sir. PROF. MEIRING Can you tell us about your problem ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, I’ll do that. I have a problem with my right hand because it broke and then, if I can use it for a while it will give me a problem but I don’t use it often. Even working, I work because I’m the only one who’s supposed to work otherwise I would not work. My head is ..(indinstnct). I don’t put even a hat on the head because my head is always pain, painful all the time. PROF. MEIRING Thank you. You are working. What type of work do you do ? MRS SEFULARO I’m not working, I’m a housewife. PROF. MEIRING Housewife ? Your husband, is he working ? MRS SEFULARO Yes, he’s working. PROF. MEIRING What does he do ? MRS SEFULARO He’s working in the Municipal offices in Johannesburg. I don’t know what kind of work he’s doing. PROF. MEIRING He comes during week-ends or during holiday times to be with the family ? MRS SEFULARO Always at month-end, he comes home. PROF. MEIRING Thank you, those are my questions. CHAIRPERSON Miss Seroke ? MISS SEROKE You said, in your village there were people within the ANC of the organ, and you were a member of the Christian Democratic Party, were there members of Christian Democratic Party in your village ? MRS SEFULARO Yes. MISS SEROKE Where there many? MRS SEFULARO Even if there were not many, but there were many. MISS SEROKE When this incident happened to you, did it happen to other people who were members of the Christian Democratic Party? MRS SEFULARO Yes, there is a certain woman who’s here. MISS SEROKE Can you give us an example ? MRS SEFULARO This woman is my next door neighbour. They killed her child. The, this woman could have gone to Garamka Hospital but she’s here because the Truth Commission is here. That’s the child she was staying with. MISS SEROKE During the school boycotts in your area, were members of the Christian Democratic Party going to school or was your only child going to school. MRS SEFULARO They were all going to school. MISS SEROKE But did anything didn’t happen to them. MRS SEFULARO Yes, it’s only myself and, and the woman I’m telling you about. MISS SEROKE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sefularo, before I come to thank you for coming to-day, can I just ask your impressions of, first of all why were there so many, why were the school boycotts going on in your area at that time? Why was there a school boycott in the area? MRS SEFULARO I don’t know the reasons behind the school boycotts. CHAIRPERSON And also could I just come to the question of the ANC. The ANC had just been legalised in the rest of the country. In Boputhatswan, if you remember the Government had declared a state of emergency which was only lifted in March of 1991. In fact some of the organisations that were functioning in the then Mmabhata, to-day’s Mafeking, were demanding for free political expression to take place in Boputhatswana. Do you remember any of that at all and your impressions of that as a supporter of Mr Mangope’s party ? MRS SEFULARO I’m not able to tell you anything about Mr Mangope and his party and all his political activities because so many things happened then. I don’t want to tell about things which I just heard. CHAIRPERSON I don’t have any other questions. Is there anything you would like to say before I finish ? MRS SEFULARO There’s nothing more I want to add, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sefularo, thank you very, very much for coming to-day. For me, your story exemplifies what happened in many communities of our country. People in small villages, in big towns became divided. On the one side because many of our people were not allowed to express what they wanted and what they demanded in terms of their political expressions and on the other side, some people who supported a particular movement at times became targets as well, and your daughter, like so many other children in our country became victims. A young person of eighteen who to-day would have been contributing greatly to the development of this particular region of our country, lost her life and you lost a daughter and your family, your daughters and sons lost a sister. We’re very sorry to hear about that. We thank you for coming here to-day and we will come back to you. I’m going to ask for a tea break at this stage, but before I do that I just want to welcome some people to our hearing to-day. The Premier of the North West Region, Mr Popo Molefe, welcome Sir, Mr Mike Ntolo who is the MEC for Public, no sorry, he’s not he’s just part of your constituency, sorry, Mr George Batsedulang and Councilor Majoro. We also have Mayoress, Mrs Sophie Leber, Lebercoro, sorry, Ugone. Welcome to all of you. I’m also going to take the opportunity of asking the Premier who has come to almost all the hearings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to come forward and say a few words. We would like to give you the opportunity Sir, to do, to say to people here to-day. (clapping of hands)