hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-07-04 BLOEMFONTEIN 1 Mr Molehe, Thiwe Magadalena Mhlabende, Gladys Mosidi Mohali, Ellen Kaloti, Ratsebe Jeremiah Mekwe, Metabo Adelena Matsunyane, Erica Doreen Motsabe Kokunsi, Mr and Mrs Thapedi, Shadrack Theko Olifant, Dikaledi Adelaide Motsaneng, Bernice Jakila, Paulina Butsibo and Ester Tsetsi, Ezekiel Matsidiso Marais https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56201&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvbloem/bloem1.htm COMMISSIONER Mr Molehe, you are in one way making abit of history today, because you are the first witness ever to appear beforethe Commission in the Free State. Some of your colleagues and friends have appearedin Durban, but you are the first in the Free State, and we welcome you mostwarmly. It's not easy to be first, and you're probably feeling a little bitnervous, but I hope that you can relax and realise that the Commission, appointedby the President, is here on behalf of the nation, and cares about you and yourown pain. We identify with you. You have come to tell us about the death ofyour son, which is a very, very hard thing to do and a very heavy burden tocarry. Before you do that I must ask you to take the oath, and I'd be gratefulif you would please stand now. MR MOLEHE (Sworn, States) CHAIRMAN Mr Molehe, we always ask one of our Commissionersor Committee Members to be of assistance to witnesses and survivors, and inthis instance my colleague, Mrs Virginia Gcabashe, is going to lead you andto assist you in any way, but she knows, and I know, and we all know, that it'syour story and it belongs to you. I am going to ask her to take over now. Thankyou. MRS GCABASHE Mrs Molehe, we greet you. I hope thateven if you've come to relate a very painful story you are prepared to tellus all that you know about losing your son. We sympathise with you in your loss.In short I will request you to try and explain and give us a background as towhat happened to your son, that is the circumstances surrounding his disappearance.We would also like to know about your family background in brief. --- My name is Mr Molehe. My son went away in 1980. It wasafter the burial of Makotho in Pahameng. The police arrived at my place at 1o'clock. They were driving in eight vehicles and four dogs. They knocked andI opened the door. On the table there were peanuts, and they accused me of sellingdagga. They opened everything on the table and they discovered it was peanutsand they took it. The next day two policemen arrived to fetch me. They wantedme to go to the Special Branch, and they told me that, "Your son is in Lesotho.He ran away. We are now giving you this letter so that you go and fetch him."They gave me a letter and I was given a special passport. I left with my wife.We went to Lesotho. And then we found our son in Europa, Lesotho, and he saidto me, "I will not come back because the police are looking for me." The manwho was on the gate said to me, "Your son is old enough." He was over 18 andhe decided to leave the country. And I came back home, I informed the policethat he is now in Tanzania. Towards the elections I joined the ANC and I gota card. Mr Motsabe came to me and he said to me, "Your son is dead, but we don'tknow where, and you don't have to expect anything from the ANC." That was thefirst point. And the second point, I remember Mpanjani, who was one of the peoplewho tortured my son. The white man I don't remember any more. Mpanjani usedto come and fetch my son. My wife was at home and I was at work. Mpanjani wouldcome to my house via our next-door neighbours. My son realised that it was Mpanjaniand he jumped over the fence and he ran. When Mpanjani got into the house myson was not there. I was deeply hurt, and I even got a heart attack. I willnever forget Mr Motsabe's words. He was together with Mr Maleke from Johannesburg whenhe told me that my son was dead, and he said I shouldn't expect anything fromthe ANC, there will not be help of any sort. And I said to him, "I wasn't expectingany help. I just wanted to know where my son died, because I do not even knowhis grave." Since my son left I have never cut my hair, because we believe whendeath has befell your family you have to cut your hair, but I cannot becauseI don't know whether my son lives or has he died. I really don't know. Thank you, Mr Molehe, from hearing of your testimony. I wouldlike to ask you just a few questions so that you can elaborate on your story.You said you got a letter that said you must go to Lesotho. Who gave you thetransport or the fare? When you got to Lesotho you met with a Commissioner ofRefugees. Who arranged this meeting? --- When we got to Europa they showed us- when I got there I came across a person who was holding a gun. He is the onewho told me that my child is at Monthaka. You said an SB arrived at your home. Do you know his whereabouts,this Mpanjani? --- I normally meet Mpanjani in town. I think he is still around. You said that the ANC told you that your son had died. Didyou get any death certificate? What means have you done to get a death certificate?--- Mr Motsabe told me that my son died and they don't know where he died, andI just lost hope, I didn't know where to go. Because I was told that his deathcertificate will be sent to the Premier and the Premier will pass it over tome, but I didn't even know the Premier then, and I lost hope and I didn't do anything. While I was listening to the newson the radio I heard that the Commission is going to be in Bloemfontein, andI went to the St John Presbyterian Church to submit my statement. Have you ever had any visit from the ANC after that? --- No,not after that. Mr Molehe, we are listening to your story. Is there anythingelse that you would like to know, besides the fact that your son is dead andwhere is he buried? Do you think there is any assistance that the Commissionmight give you, even though that there isn't much that we can do? --- No, Ihave a request. I don't know what to ask from the Commission. The Commissionwill see what kind of help will they offer. Thank you very much. I want to say once more we sympathisewith you, we really sympathise with you. DR MGOJO Mr Molehe, according to your statement hereit would appear that you son, when he was in standard eight had a type of experience.Is that true, that he was still in standard eight? --- Yes, that's true. Thank you. And then he left to join the ANC in exile, is thattrue? --- That's true. And it would appear that later you too joined the ANC. Is thattrue? --- Yes, that's true. Before this happened you were involved with the Security Police.Was there anybody in your family who was an activist? --- No, nobody. So were you surprised that you and your family had to get thistype of treatment from the Security Police? --- Yes, I was really surprised. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Mr Molehe, we thank you very much for coming here. We alsothank your effort of having come to give your testimony. As I have already pointedout when I was praying, we ask the Lord to comfort you. May He be the one whogives His holy spirit to strengthen you. We shall try by all means to act accordingto your wishes so that we may try to solve your problems, so that we may seeor find out as to where your son has been buried, as to what has happened where.We thank you very much. COMMISSIONER Mrs Mhlabende, can you hear my voice inyour earphones? MRS MHLABENDE Yes, I can hear you. COMMISSIONER I want to say good morning to you, andto welcome you very warmly to the Commission. We are very glad that you tookthe trouble to come to the Commission and to tell your story to our membersof our staff, but now to tell it to the Commission itself and to the peoplewho are in this City hall, and to many more people outside. It's very importantthat people tell stories of what happened to them, whatever that may be, andwe are very grateful to you for coming. You are going to tell us about the timewhen you were in great distress when your own was burnt down, but before youdo that I would like you to please stand for the oath. THIWE MAGADALENA MHLABENDE (Sworn, States) COMMISSIONER Thank you very much. Please be seated.Dr Mgojo is going to take over from me and lead you as you tell your story.Thank you. DR MGOJO Mrs Mhlabende, I want you to relax and tellall what is causing your pain as far as the burning of your house is concerned.Don't fear anything, just say everything. But before I do that can you justtell us about your family, the background about your family? --- Can you pleasetell me - say what to do. Have you finished giving your testimony? --- I feel as if Iam suffocating. I am getting dizzy. Bring her forth. (Pause) --- It was like that. That's how itwent on. It was very difficult for me to make ends meet. It is still like thateven now when my husband had come out of the prison. I believe I have finished. Thank you. I'll ask you just a few questions. Please tell meif you can't hear any of the questions. In your statement you said the peoplewho burned your house were Comrades. Who are the Comrades? --- It was Mahloand Mainline, as well as Maputhi. No, I am not asking the names, but I am just asking what arethe Comrades? Is it - it's ANC? --- Yes, it's ANC. How old are these people who burned your house down? --- Theother one was quite old. The other ones were just juveniles. But they were quitegrown up, but I don't know how to explain their ages. I just know their ages,but ... (incomplete) When you think that amongst all those houses in Butsabelo whydid they choose your house? What do you think was the reason? Did you have analtercation with the Comrades? --- My husband never collaborated with them whenthey wanted to arrange or stage stay-aways. We were working and we never wantedto take any part in stay-aways because our bosses were promising us that theywould chuck us away if we don't turn up for work. So we never used to go totheir meetings. Maybe they took offence because we didn't. In your statement you said your husband was arrested becausehe wanted to revenge. How did he want to revenge? --- He was arrested when hewas trying to revenge. He was arrested when they were trying to burn our housefor the third time. The first time they threw stones, the second time on a Mondaythey burnt the house down. A week thereafter I believe - I should think it wason the third week - they had come to try and burn the house down again, butthey couldn't really do it, so my husband got arrested at that stage. We don't seem to be seeing eye to eye. In your statement MsMagdalena it says your husband wanted to revenge. Now what I am trying to say,what was he using when he wanted to revenge that caused him to be arrested? ---He never wanted to revenge. I think the person who wrote the statement did notunderstand me because I speak Xhosa, and the person who was writing the statementspoke Zulu. I'll put it in that way that we didn't actually understand eachother. Thank you. DR BORAIN Mrs Mhlabende, just to try and clarify thatlast part, I think you mentioned that on the third occasion there was someonehiding in the bushes or in the trees, and who obviously was wanting to attackyour house again, and I think your husband chased him. Did you say that he assaultedhim, and for that reason he was arrested. --- (Inaudible) (Inaudible) ... for assault of someone who was trying to attackyour house, and was sentenced for two years, and served for six months in prison.Did the police ever catch the people who tried to burn your house down, or assaultyou or stone your house? --- (Inaudible) ... arrested them. They did arrest them? They didn't arrest them? --- Yes. Your husband was defending the house and he is arrested, andthe people who tried to burn your house go free. Is that what you're tellingus? --- Yes, he was arrested for that. One last question. You mentioned that there was a docket thatyour husband must have laid charges against the people who burnt your house.That docket was lost. Who lost the docket? --- I don't know who lost this docket because this docket was not available, because whenthis guy went there and then he told the police that he was assaulted by myhusband. My husband stabbed him, and this guy said my husband was trying totake his watch, but my husband's docket wasn't there. Thank you very much. MRS GCABASHE I've got a question ... (incomplete -end of Side A, Tape 1) ... we all sympathise with you. We want to encourageyou as well as in your pain. We sympathise with you and your family. We shallwait and see whether we can actually help your or assist you in your wishes,but you should know that the Commission doesn't have the authority or the powers.We will have to tell the President, come up with suggestions or recommendationsas to how to help you, then at the end of the day he is the one who passes thisto the Parliament, and it's the Parliament that makes the final decision asto what assistance we should give you if you are going to get any assistance. We thank you for being present. We ask the Lord to anoint yourwounds and also help you in your difficulties. Thank you. COMMISSIONER Mrs Mohali, just let me make sure youcan hear me, and that I can hear you. Can you hear me through the earphones? MRS MOHALI Yes, I can hear you, Sir. COMMISSIONER All right. To help me, and to help theCommission, and also to help the people who are here to hear your story, I wouldask you to try and speak as loudly as possible, because everybody wants to hearyou. May I, on behalf of the Commission, welcome you very warmly to this hearing.You have not one, but two very distressing and sat stories to tell, which involvedyour two sons, Bokile and Christopher, and we're going to listen to that ina moment. It's a very heavy story, but you are amongst friends, and we willhear you and we will sympathise with you as you tell that story. Before youstart will you please stand so that you can take the oath? GLADYS MOSIDI MOHALI (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN I wonder if we could just pause there before we hear aboutChristopher. Just a few questions. You have told a very terrifying story, anda very sad one, but you have been very, very brave. (Pause) Are you okay? Justtake your time. (Pause) Can we continue now? --- Yes, we can continue. Thank you. Your son, Bokile, how old was he when he went toLesotho in 1978? --- He was born in 1958. So he was 20 years old. He was a young man. Was he very interestedin politics as a young man? --- Yes, he was very interested in politics. Okay. And you went to see him in Lesotho. --- Yes, I went tolook for him in Lesotho and I found him there. Did he go with his brother or did he go on his own? --- Hewas together with other boys who were schooling together with him. They leftin a group. And whilst he was in Lesotho he went to school and he got hismatric, is that right? --- Yes, that's correct. He went to school and he passedhis matric. And I even asked him, "Who is paying for your school fees?" andhe said they are being subsidised by the interior. Fine. And did you - were you in contact with him from time to time, either by telephone or letter or friends,in any way? --- I personally went to Lesotho to visit him. Thank you. Now, in 1986 is that when he came back to the country?--- When he came back in 1986 he wanted to see his brother in Lesotho, becausehe was now an MK member. Which brother is that? --- Christopher. Thank you. Now, when your son Bokile - Bokkie, I think youcall him - when he came back to South Africa was he working underground or washe - what was he doing? Was he in touch with you? --- He came to Lesotho asan MK member, and then he wanted to see his younger brother. When he was supposedto go back the Lesotho Government was overthrown by Leganya(?) and they couldn'tget into any international plane, so he had to come to South Africa so thathe can go back. I see. And you got a message that your son, Bokkie, had beenkilled, and that started a very, very, very long journey from police stationto police station, from mortuary, Red Cross, hospital, houses, townships, alldesperately trying to find out what had happened. Is that right? --- Yes, that'scorrect, because after receiving the news that he had died I went to the policestations and they didn't allow me to see him. I even went to Lesotho to findout whether had he been to Lesotho, and they said yes, he had been to Lesotho,but he is now back. And I said to them, "No, he is not back, he is now dead."They said, "No, we don't believe you." And to this day you don't know where Bokkie was buried, buttell me a little bit more about the person who told you how he was killed by the Security Police. Who wasthat who told you that when you went to the house? --- This house I got whenI asked another policeman as to where my son had been killed. This policemantold me it's Haramakari(?), and I must look for Mrs Matheho. I went there, Ilooked for the place until I got the place, and I got Mrs Theko. That is wherethey told me what had actually happened. That is Mrs Theko as well as her son.They told me how Bokkie had died, how come the police killed him. And when thepolice went there they told me Bokkie, my son, had a bag, a travelling bag.That bag contained ammunition as well as bullets. And when I saw this file thisfile was with Mr Motsabe. He is the one who showed me. (Inaudible) ... at all? --- No, I never saw the handbag, Ijust saw it in a photo. (Inaudible) ... the Moroka Hospital because you heard thatyour son's body was there. Can you remember the name of the superintendent?--- Yes, I still remember, but Christopher, my son, can tell the name. I haveforgotten the name. (Inaudible) ... that later. Thank you very much. Now, who isColonel Erasmus? --- Colonel Erasmus is the person that Mr Motsabe got. OnlyMr Motsabe knows who Colonel Erasmus is. (Inaudible) ... to help you to find the file, and at last atBethuli you saw the file, did you, on your son? --- Yes ... (inaudible - endof Side B, Tape 1) ... so that Buckall may point where he put the file. And did you get to see the file? --- Yes, I did see the file.It was the second time I was seeing the file. I saw it when they were refusing to give it to me. Theyjust showed it to me when I was at the Thaba Nchu charge office. This file hadmy son's photos, as well as how the bomb had actually ripped his body apart,but I couldn't see the face. At some of the photos he was sleeping on his tummy.I couldn't see his face, I could only see his back. His body was destroyed savagely. (Inaudible) ... more questions. You mentioned that there wasa post-mortem and there was also an inquest, but was that also in the file,so you haven't got copies of the findings of the post-mortem? --- (Inaudible)... that file. There was this bag which they say had ammunition. There was alsowhere he fell, also where the bomb had exploded. It's just two or three photosinside that file that I saw. INTERPRETER The interpreting service shall resume assoon as the witness is ready. (Pause) --- When I got there Christopher was grievouslyassaulted. He said he was taken by Captain Prinsloo, as well as another policemanby the name of Marapo. He said they had been kicking and assaulting him. Theywere saying he must speak the truth because he was an ANC member because hewas attending school in Lesotho. He asked them - they said he must work forthem when he gets to Lesotho. He must look for the ANC members and inform them.He said he doesn't stay in Maseru, he is outside Maseru. He doesn't even knowwhere the ANC members are, he doesn't know anything about the ANC. They continuedassaulting him until he bled through his mouth, as well as his ears. Where thereare holes blood was spilling out. He said they told him to wash the pyjamasthat he was wearing because he had bled on them. He couldn't wash the pyjamasbecause he was swollen all over the place. Then they threw him outside the bordersof Ficksburg. As he was there he didn't know where to go. He was given an emergencypassport which says, "I am sick," so he was taken to Quintu Hospital in Maseru. So they made a passportthat he could go and see his mother, but I was looking for him. Because Christopherdidn't know where he was going he remembered the phone numbers of one of themembers of the family, that is the Maheta family. He phoned the Maheta familyat Apatamayi(?), where they took him to a doctor. They enlisted the help ofa doctor to come and - when I got there I made this passport in Takastad(?).I showed it to Captain Prinsloo. I said to him, "Look, I am still looking formy son. You are keeping him here. Where does this passport come from?" Theytold me that my son was an ANC member. I told them that my son was a studentand he wasn't an ANC member, and he wasn't going to tell me what was happening.He had already assaulted my child. I even said to him my child had died. Thenhe was - he took out my son's watch that he had taken earlier on and gave itto me. Then I told him my son was alive. And I told him that the doctor whohad examined him had told me that if I had the means I could open up a case,but now I am afraid. I am afraid of the forces that be. Then I left the caseas it was. One day Prinsloo sent me to my son. They said they wanted to seehim because I was asking to take my son back. When we got to the border - Iwas with Captain Prinsloo when we got to the border. They asked my son as towhether he still agrees with what they told him earlier on. They said they wantedhim to work for them. He totally refused. He said that he won't work for thembecause they were killers as they had done to him. He pointed out that assaultedhim and he will not do it to other people, or help them do it to other people.Then Prinsloo said to me, "You are going back to Lesotho. You are never ever are never ever going to come back to Bloemfontein." So, since1984 my son has never been coming to Bloemfontein. He didn't have a passport,he was staying in Lesotho until when the President, Mr Mandela, came back. It'sonly then that he requested that he be made a passport to come back home. That'sonly then that he came back. Thank you very much. I will not keep you very long. --- Oh,I'm sorry, there's something that I left out. My husband wasn't working becausethey were always troubling him. I took the case over because I realised thatthey were going to kill my husband. We were in such difficult times. Even nowmy husband isn't working. We are still pulling very hard because of the Afrikanerswho were always troubling us. He got work at the location at Mr Makofane's place.Mafisa and Mpanjani used to go there and go and insult him where he was working.They used to violate him. Mafisa also used to harass me at work. He wanted to- he kept on fetching me from work to ask me some questions. We pulled so veryhard as from 1978 until 1991. We didn't sleep at nights. We were being pointedwith guns. They used to refer to us as dangerous people of the ANC. They wouldknock at night, kick the doors. Some would even sleep outside. The neighbourswere keeping an eye because they were scared that they would throw a bomb ordo something to us. I don't know what was happening. Tell me, your son, Christopher, where is now and what is hedoing? --- He is working for the ANC. Whereabouts? --- He's in Sanlam Plaza. (Inaudible) ... Bloemfontein? --- Bloemfontein. A final point. You mentioned that your daughter was very disturbed by all the - the death of her brother, and thetorture and the harassment and so many other things. Has she been into hospital,or under a doctor or a psychologist? --- Yes, this child went to the doctors,that is physicians. The physicians referred her to Orange Hospital, but shenever came all right. My brother took her to Johannesburg at a mental hospital.That is where she became better. I had already spent a lot of money trying toget her to back to normal, but it didn't help. Is she staying with you now? --- No, she doesn't stay withme. She got married in Gauteng. Thank you very much. You've been through a horrible experience,and, as I said earlier, you've been very brave. I have no more questions, andI am going to ask the Chairperson to take over. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. Any further questions?Dr Mgojo. DR MGOJO Thank you very much, Ma Mohali. I am not goingto be long too because I feel that you have undergone a strain derived fromyour experiences. I just want to ask just a few things just to fill up. Somewherein your narrative you said that when Bokile was arrested he was kept in a flat.--- Yes, I said that. Where was that flat, and whose flat was that? --- This wasthe Municipality flat in the township. It was called the Native Affairs flat.We used to call it flat. Thank you. You said again that the police once asked you togo and fetch your son in Lesotho, and when you went there you found that hewas in a camp which had nobody, and he refused to come back. Did the police ask you to give a report about your trip since you were sent bythem? --- When I got to the police station I never told them that I had gotmy son at the camp. I told them that I had got him from the street. And did they ask you why he had refused to come back? --- Hesaid he was scared that they would kill him. He said he didn't want to comeback, he was scared that the police would kill him. Mrs Mohali, you know that these police were very inquisitivepeople. The question I am asking, when you came back, since they knew that youhad gone there, they had encouraged you to go there, did they come back andsay that, "Why did your son refuse to come back?" This is what I want to establish.They never worried you about why he didn't want to come back? --- The police,when they said that we must go to Lesotho, they said I must go to Fountain andtell them as to how I went. Then they asked me as to where my son is. I toldthem that he refused. They asked me why. I told them that he was scared thatthey would kill him. They said they wouldn't kill him, he must come back. (Inaudible) ... your narratives you have mentioned the SecurityPolice. I am not sure which Security Police they are. You mentioned those fromThaba Nchu and those from Ladybrand. Were they the SAPs or the BophutatswanaGovernment Police, or a mixture? --- According to what they said to me, thatis where he died, they said all the police came together. It was police fromLadybrand, as well as YB, as well as Bloemfontein policemen were there, butthe most were white people or white policemen. (Inaudible) ... now you know that the Truth Commission is interested to the families too. How much hasthis affected you as a mother, these experiences? --- They affected us so terribly,because each and every time we were in pain. I even had diseases or sufferedfrom certain illnesses because of what had happened. We lost so much due torunning from pillar to post trying to trace my son. Thank you. You have already heard from Mr Borain how we sympathise withyou in all the troubles that you've been through. It's not easy to comfort people,but we are trying. Even if we are weak, but we always say let God be the personwho comforts you, let Him be the person who takes car of you, because the storythat you have told us today is a very sorrowful one that your son had been killedin that way, and thereafter you didn't even know where he was buried. To addto that the one coming after him was also tortured as you have indicated. We want to thank all the women, because they are brave. Youwomen are very powerful women. You are forgiving, and that surprises us. MayGod be with you and your family in this time of trouble. We all know that Heis Emmanuel and He will be with you. We are free today, we have freedom today,because most people sacrificed themselves. Your children were also sacrifices.We thank you. May God bless you. We want to thank you. MR BORAIN Mr Kaloti, could you put the earphones onplease. You have your sister with you today. MR KALOTI Yes. MR BORAIN We'd like to welcome you both, and I knowyour name, Elvis Kaloti, is that correct? MR KALOTI Yes. MR BORAIN I am not sure about your sister's name. Perhapsshe could tell me, or you could tell me your name, or you could tell me yoursister's name. MR KALOTI She is Ellen Kaloti. MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Now, are you both goingto speak, or just you, Mr Kaloti? MR KALOTI No, she's speaking. MR BORAIN She's going to be speaking? MR KALOTI Yes. MR BORAIN And you as well? MR KALOTI No. MR BORAIN No. So it's just - okay. All right, that'sEllen Kaloti. I want to welcome both of you very warmly to the witness stand.Thank you for waiting. I suppose you wondered if you were ever going to haveyour chance. You can hear me all right on the earphones, no problem? Wonderful.Thank you very much indeed. This is a story about detention, torture and harassment.That is the story you're going to tell, but before you do I must ask you totake the oath, so I'll be grateful if you will please stand. ELLEN KALOTI (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN Commissioner Lyster is going to help youto tell the story, and I am going to hand over to him now. /MR LYSTER MR LYSTER Thank you, Mrs Kaloti. I understand thatthe evidence that you will give relates to the assault and torture or your brother,Elvis, who is with you today, and that he has requested you to speak and tellus about this because you were there when this happened. Can you tell us thatstory, and before you do that will you just tell us something about where youlived, you and your brothers. Just give a short background to this incidentwhich you're going to tell us about. Thank you. --- We are staying in 1160 MogwaneStreet, Bathu Location. In that year when we have this pain it was in the eveningwhen the police came in. It was white police. There were also black policemen,but they were outside in the van. They knocked at the door, and when they openedthey said they were looking for Edwin. When they knock Edwin said we must hidehim. We did that. When they get into his bedroom we told them that, "This isElvis, not Edwin." They pulled him while he was still sleeping. He was beatenup. He was bleeding profusely through the mouth and the ears. In front of thedoor where they were beating him there was some pool of blood. He couldn't evenscream, he was so quiet. We thought that he was dead. One of the police cameinside the house and then he took a bucket of water. It was very cold in thatday because it was winter. He just threw the water over his body. They tookhim. They put him inside the van. When I was prepared to sleep I couldn't sleep,it was very painful, and then I woke up my sister and then I told her that wemust go to Philonomi Hospital, maybe they are taking him there. Then my sistersaid, "Let's go. There was no - the street was so quiet, it was very dark outside.Our parents said to us, "How "are you going to reach that place?" I said to my mother, "Godis there. He is going to accompany us." It was like that, and then we went there.When we arrived at the Philonomi Hospital there were security guards outside.By that time we were not allowed - if you are sick you are not allowed to getinside the hospital. I said to her we must just - we must plan as if I pretendas if I am sick. They allowed us to get inside. When we were in Philonomi therewere police in the passages of Philonomi Hospital. Then we came back. We metthis other girl on the way who is a nurse in Philonomi Hospital, who asked uswhat is it that we are looking for. I told her that - I asked if the policedidn't came with a boy who was bleeding. They said he is inside. And then Isaid I was afraid to go in and check, and then she said, "You must go in andcheck." When I tried to look one of the policemen was looking at us, and thenI had to go back again ... (inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 2) ... and I couldn'thear what was going on. I told my sister that, "This is not going to help. Rathergo back home." We went back home. He was in the hospital for three days. Therewas - he was unconscious, he was in a coma. We used to go there just to watchhim, and then we'd go back again because we couldn't communicate. After threemonths he was still in hospital. On that particular day when I went to see himI found out the police had taken him. I went back home and I told them thatthe police have taken him. We couldn't sleep at night, even during the day.Even where I was working the police were always coming too, but each time whenthey go to fetch me at work they said to me they are looking for Edwin. I usedto tell them that I don't even know where is Edwin. Since I last saw him during that particular nightI never saw him again. They were always giving me a hard time. One day theycame to my workplace, they said I must give them Edwin's photos, and I toldthem that I don't have Edwin's photos. They said to me ... (incomplete) INTERPRETER The interpretation service will resumeas soon as the speaker is ready. (Pause) --- They said to me they knew, theyheard where he is, he was in Lesotho. They said to me I must go to Lesotho andbring him back. I told them that I don't even know Lesotho and I am not goingthere. I don't even have relatives there. I told them that I am not going there.This Prinsloo came to me. He said to me he is going to arrest me. I said tohim, "Instead of arresting me, I don't even know because I am not always withthe kids, you'd better kill me because I am not going there." I never saw himagain. MR LYSTER Thank you, Mrs Kaloti. You said Elvis wasin hospital for about three months, and was he discharged after that, and whathappened to him after he was discharged? --- When we were in Philonomi lookingfor him we got the message that the police took him. I've been to each and everypolice station, I couldn't get him. But what was surprising, there was thisother lady whose children were also arrested. They said even Elvis was in theircase also with her children. She always tell me when she was going to court,and I went there with the hope that I will get Elvis. And then I asked wherewas Elvis. The Judge told the police that he is somewhere in Bathu. He saidthey must go and fetch him. They brought him. When I asked why didn't they broughthim before then he said the police were always taking him to assault him somewhereelse. They always asked him where was his brother, whether he belongs to anyof the political organisations, who were those people who were always recruitingthem in those organisations? And eventually did Elvis come back to the family house? ---He came back on the day of the case. It was 14 or 16 of them. One of them wasreleased by the name of Madlathela. (Inaudible) ... convicted of anything, or was he released bythe Court? --- He was released without any questions. There were no questionsthat were asked to him. It was the only children who were being questioned,because when the police started to visit us they were not looking for him, theywere looking for Edwin, therefore he was the one who was being tortured. Just to clarify that, Edwin is the older brother of Elvis,is that correct? --- Yes, it's true. (Inaudible) ... the police were looking for Edwin? --- I didn'tknow the reason, and I didn't know where were they going to take him to. Was Edwin a member of any political party at the time? ---He was a member of the ANC. And you mentioned a policeman by the name of Prinsloo. Is hefrom the South African Police, the SAP, or Bophutatswana Police? --- He wasin the Fountain offices from the Special Branch. And another witness this morning has also mentioned the wordFountain Police, and in many of the statement that we have taken from peoplefrom this area they have mentioned Fountain Police. What was Fountain? --- It is a place where the Special Branch police are posted. Also you didn't clarify which year this took place, Mrs Kaloti.Can we just clarify that. When was Elvis taken to Philonomi Hospital? --- Itwas in 1979. It was just after a local policeman's house was burnt down, andhis name was Mojaki. He was staying in Malay Camp. On the same night when hishouse was burnt Elvis was assaulted. They were actually looking for Edwin, notElvis. (Inaudible) ... at the time of this assault? --- He was 18years. (Inaudible) --- Yes, he was still schooling at Lekayi PrimarySchool, and his brother was in Sifunelo High School. Has this experience, his assault, has it affected him in anyway that you are able to say? --- Yes, it affected him mentally, because evennow he is at home. He is doing nothing. He is unemployed. Our mother is takingcare of him. She is doing everything for him. Even he is sick my mom has totake him to the doctor, and every time he is sick we know that it is a mentaldisorder. In 1990, it was in December on the 24th, he was sleeping. I don'tknow what was happening to him, and I don't know how did he feel, but he wasshouting, and when we got into his bedroom he was a changed person. And whenwe asked him what was the matter he fell, and we called an ambulance to takehim to Philonomi Hospital. He was released the next day on the 25th, and thenhe wasn't - he wasn't okay. He has a mental problem if I have to indicate that. And is he taking any sort of medication for that? --- No, heis not under any medication. Is he receiving any grant of any sort, disability grant? ---No. Mrs Kaloti, do you remember the names of any of the policemenwho you witnessed assaulting your brother? --- I can't remember their names,but I can identify them. (Inaudible) ... working, or where they are based? --- I didn'tknow where do they live, but what I know it was white policemen. How did they actually assault him? --- They were hitting himwith guns, big guns, and they were hitting him right on his head. And they usedto point us with those guns so that we can go back inside the house. And what became of Edwin, Mrs Kaloti? --- Since Edwin leftand we didn't even know where he was until the day when they came and said tome I must go to Lesotho. That's when I said I am not going to Lesotho. And Iheard that he was in Tanzania until the day he came home again to stay withus. And is he staying with you presently? --- He is not stayingwith us. But is he back in the country, he's living here, is that right?--- Yes, he is around. I'll hand over now back to the Chairman and ask if there areany other questions that other people would like to ask. CHAIRMAN Thank you. Any further questions? Dr Mgojo. DR MGOJO Thank you very much, my sister. Are thereany reasons that Edwin has been away from home for such a long time when mostof the people were very anxious to get home? That when he is back in South Africahe does not go home and stay at home? Have you inquired from him why he cannotcome back at home and stay at home? --- I never asked for any reason becauseI didn't know where he was. But I wanted to the police where were they goingto take him to, and they didn't tell me where they were going to take him to. You said that Edwin is back now. When Commissioner RichardLyster was asking you you said that he is back now in the country, and the questionwas that is he living with you at home, and you said that no, he is not at home.Now, it means that now he has got a freedom of movement now because of the newSouth Africa now that things have changed. Why I am interested, is there anyreason why he does not stay at home now? --- There's no reason. It's just thathe feels that he is going to stay wherever he stays right now, because sometimeshe is working. He is working for the Umkhonto we Sizwe, so he decided to staywhere he stays right now. In the statement here it is said that Elvis Kaloti does nothave a permanent job, and he would like to have a permanent job. What type ofa job would you think that he would do, because you have already said that heis mentally sick ... (inaudible) --- With hands he can work. Any kind of jobhe can do. Things like cleaning. Any job that he is capable of doing he feelsthat it's right for him. Thank you, Sir. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much for the evidence thatyou have brought forward. We don't know at the moment, maybe the Commissioncan help as he is not well. Maybe there is something that he can get. As we are still telling the othersthat God be with you, and we can also try that we be of assistance to you. Thankyou very much. MR BORAIN Mr Mekwe, can you hear my voice all righton the earphones? MR MEKWE I can hear very well. MR BORAIN Good. Thank you very much. I can hear youtoo, so we can make a start. You are very welcome. We are pleased to see you.You are going to tell a story about what happened to you, not about what happenedto someone else, and in telling a story it brings back many memories, and someof those are very painful, and we hope that in the telling of the story it willnot a distressful experience but a healing one, because please remember thatyou are telling this story to people who have been asked by the President tohear what you have to say so that South Africa can know, and indeed the worldcan know, what took place during many years in our country. We feel deeply foryou, and so many others like you, and we wait to hear what you have to say.Before you start would you please stand for the oath? RATSEBE JEREMIAH MEKWE (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Mr Dlamini is goingto assist you in the telling of your own story, and I hand over to him now.Thank you. MR DLAMINI Thank you, Mr Mekwe. We appreciate the opportunitythat you have accorded us to share your experiences, which go back to 1971.And before perhaps we could ask clarifying questions can I ask you to relatethis story as it happened. Thank you. --- It was on the 7th of May 1971. Itwas on a Friday. I was at work. As I was going out of my office, proceedingto the toilet, my co-worker called me and told me that police were looking for me. As I got there I saw quite a number of guys,there may have been 24 or 25. They were all white and they asked me what myname was. I told them my name was Jeremiah Mekwe. They handcuffed me, they putme into the car. I told them to phone somebody and tell her that I have beenarrested. They refused. They took me to the police station. I told them it wasthe first time that I was being arrested, I don't know anything about the policestation. They told me about 180 days. As we came they asked me where I was attendingschool. They asked me when did I come to Welkom. I told them it was in 1982.They asked me names of people that I knew all of them. They said to me I shouldknow these people. They asked me quite a number of persons. Each time I toldthem they used to say the right person, the right person. Thereafter they saidI should show them where I slept. I showed them my bedroom. They took my schoolbooks. They took all these books. I thought I had stolen books. They took meon a Friday, and Monday they came back to me and said they were taking me toVirginia Police Station. That is where they assaulted me, they said I must talk.They said I had said at some stage that I am going to put all the white peoplein the sea because I didn't want them. They assaulted me repeatedly. They tookme to Virginia River. They put me into a sack and they threw me in there. Theykept on saying I must speak the truth, I must admit that I at some stage saidI will put all the white people in the sea. When I went to court I told theCourt that all the things that I had said before I had said them under duress.I was sickly. Then I was taken to a doctor. I was very much afraid. Each thingthey said I /admitted. Thank you, Mr Mekwe. I just want to ask a few clarifying questions.You mentioned that when you were arrested you were too young to understand whatwas happening. How old were you? --- I was born in 1946 in January on the 21st. And also you said that you were coming from work. What typeof job were you doing at that time? --- I was a clerk. Can you tell us more about the organisation and the dutiesthat you were performing as a clerk? --- I used to do quite a number of jobs.I would be a clerk, an accountant, because at that time they used to just giveyou work, just ordinary work, ordinary office work. I was doing quite a numberof jobs. When they see that there's something that - I was also a storeman.When they see that there's an odd job they would give it to you. (Inaudible) ...the company you were working for? --- It wasWelkom Engineering. Thank you. Can you also tell us about your family, the wifeand the children in particular? I know that at the moment you are staying withyour mother. --- I had a wife, as well as kids. When I remember quite well,according to the old laws when you get arrested the Security Police would goand tell your wife that she must divorce you because he is going to die in RobbenIsland. So women used to listen to that, so when she came back shedivorced me. Thank you. And the children, where are they and how old arethey? --- Since they ran away with their mother I have never seen them. Evenwhen my father died they never came to the funeral. I never saw them again. The conviction that was imposed on you by the Court in Bloemfontein,what was the nature of the conviction? What was the offence? --- When the Courttold me - according to my attorney they said to me I don't know anything. Theysaid to me I must tell the Court as to how I was arrested. I told them thatI was assaulted, I was never told - I was just told that I was a member of PAC,I was a member of all those organisations. So the Court threw away such evidence,they said to me I was vague. In your opinion what do you think was the real reason behindyour arrest and sentencing? --- That question is a very beautiful question thatshould be asked. When we asked the gentlemen with whom I was arrested therewas a Council here in Welkom. This Council used to harass people, and therewas also another Council in 1969. We followed up that Council. As we were followingit up unfortunately the people with whom we were arrested, Moses Libenya andJohn Coetzee, they had a book called, "Cry Our Beloved Country." At the timethat book was banned. Now, these police got this clue that this gentleman whowe were attending school with, that is me, we had this banned book in our possession.Now the police told me if I point out the people who were in possession of thatbook they would release me. Now, I saw it was difficult because they ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape2) ... myself how could I have handled such a gun. I don't even know where Tanzaniais. I don't know even know Bloemfontein, I am from Welkom. I know Welkom. Youcan ask me about Welkom. One more last question from myself and then I'll hand overto the Chairperson. Are you presently employed? --- I am not working at all.When I work I work only for three weeks, then they tell me that they don't wantme. Now I am working as a volunteer in the offices. I help in the welfare department,especially in the pensions department, especially when the white people robthem. I help in so many ways, as well as grants. Now they help me financiallybecause they know that I am not working. (Inaudible) ... Mekwe. I'll now hand over to the Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Thank you. We thank you very much. We cansee that you are grown up now. We thank you for the story that you've relatedto us, and the manner which you were harassed. We hope that this Commissionwould perhaps be able to assist you in any which way it can. We will help. Wethank you very much. MR BORAIN Good afternoon, Mrs Matsunyane. Can you hearme all right? MRS MATSUNYANE I hear you perfectly well, Sir. MR BORAIN Good. Thank you very much. I would like tosay a very warm word of welcome to you. It's been quite a long morning, andwe are delighted that you are finally at the witness stand and ready to tellyour story, which goes back to 1988 and '89, when your house, according to yourstory, was petrol bombed. Before you tell that story, and the suffering thatthat brought about, will you please stand for the taking of the oath. METABO ADELENA MATSUNYANE (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN MRS GCABASHE Good morning, Ma'am. We are really delightedthat you could come to the Commission. Can you first start and, you know, tellus more briefly about your family, and thereafter you will tell us about whathappened to your family according to the statement you have given us. Can youhear me? --- I think I cannot hear you perfectly well. Can you hear me? --- I will request you to speak a bit louderbecause I don't hear you. Can you please just explain briefly about your family life,as well as all that happened until now, whatever you've written in your statement.--- Shortly I can say as from 1988, that is in 1988, I was with my childrenin the house. It was towards 10 o'clock. As we were still sitting I was actually preparing them for theirconcert. Just before we finished we went into our bedrooms, we prepared ourselvesto sleep. Now, I have a five-year-old grandson, who used to remind me that weshould pray. Just as he started praying he said amen, then we heard a loud noise,a loud bang on top of the roof. Many stones were being hurled on top of theroof, as well as through the windows, and the stones were falling into the house.By God's mercy there isn't even a single stone that hit any of the children.I stood and held the door. I tried to shake the door as if I was going to goout just to scare them, but I didn't actually go out. When we looked throughthe windows we saw girls and boys, many of them, quite a group. They were goingout of the window. Some were going out of the gate. When it became in the morningI heard that these children slept at the reverend's place. That is our elderat the Catholic Church. That is where that group went to sleep at the reverend'splace. My child woke up. That is my granddaughter, went to the police station.The policemen came in and they just looked scantily. They asked what happened.We didn't even know who had attacked us. It was at night, we couldn't identifyany of them. But we slept. We didn't have windows, we had to sleep using doorsto close the windows. We thought they would come back for us, but well, theydidn't come back. The police did not help me in any way. They just looked anddid nothing, because I said to them, "I don't know who the people were." Theywere not old people, they were very young children. They said I should findout who the people were so that I can open a case. It was in 1980, and in 1989 they burnt my house. Can I ask you a question? You said it was in 1999. Do you wantto say it was in another year maybe? --- They started in 1988. They only threwstones, and in 1989 they burnt my house. In 1990 again they burnt. It was threeyears consecutively. We thank you, Mrs Matsunyane. I think you've said everythingyou wanted to say. --- Yes, I think I have finished everything I wanted to say. The second question that I still want to ask. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MRS GCABASHE Can you please tell us what was this ...Dikwankwetla(?)? --- Are you asking me who were they? Can you please tellus briefly about Dikwankwetla? --- I have to tell you that I was so fond ofthe Dikwankwetla. It was a party. I didn't quite understand you. --- I think I have a problemwith my ears. Did you hear my question? --- Can you please repeat your question. In your statement to referred to a party called Dikwankwetla.Can you tell us a bit what this party was all about? --- I stayed in Thaba Nchufor quite a long time. I didn't have any place to stay for quite a long time, and every time I would go and find a place to stay theywould refer me to Qua-Qua. I didn't know anything connected to politics, I wanteda place to stay like a mother who's got children. I didn't want to be lodgingall over Thaba Nchu. Now, this Dikwankwetla party gave us a place to say inButsabelo, and I decided to join. There was no any good reason to follow thisparty, but I wanted a house to stay in and I joined them. You stayed in Butsabelo? --- Yes, we stayed in Butsabelo. Weare the first people to stay in Butsabelo. Now, these children who burnt your house, did you have an ideaof whether they belonged to any party or not? --- Yes, they were the ANC. Yes,they belonged to the ANC. If I may ask you a question. Is there anything that you wouldlike the Commission to help you with, even if we don't have those powers? ---I lost so many things, and being a single woman without a husband I would requestthe Commission to help me with the house. I would like my house to be repaired,and if I can be given money so that I can buy the furniture that got damaged.Because even at the police station they have information regarding the valueof the furniture. The last question that I have. The policemen you reported thismatter to, were they the Bophutatswana Police or the South African Police? Thepolice station that you went to report this matter to? --- It was a policestation in Butsabelo. Were they the South African Police or Bophutatswana Police?--- No, they were not Bophutatswana Police, they were Butsabelo Police. Thank you very much. We have listened to your story, and thenI will now take everything back to the Chairman so that he can conclude. Mother, I just want to pursue that question which was askedby Mrs Virginia Gcabashe about the children who burnt your house and they werekept in the mission of a Roman Catholic father. What was the connection betweenthis father and the children? Do you know of any connection? --- I don't know.I don't know their relationship. I was told by his child, because he woke upthe next morning early to come and tell me that the youths slept at his home. Did this father know that these children were involved in burningpeople's houses? --- I don't have any information. I don't know whether he knewthat these youths were burning houses. You never complained to him, asked him why he was keeping thepeople who were burning? --- I went to him. I went to him after receiving thenews that the youths slept over at his house. He also came to inspect my house,and I told him, "I heard that they were overnight at your place." He said, "Yes.While I was sleeping I heard a group of people getting into my house, into thebedroom where my children were sleeping," and he could hear them saying, "Canyou please switch the lights "off," and they switched the lights off. They all slept athis house. To put the record straight maybe, so this was not the Catholicpriest. It was the Catholic elder, not the priest. Is that true? --- It wasthe Catholic elder, not the priest. CHAIRMAN We really feel with you for the tortures thatyou have been through, and we try to explain to people that this is a Commissionthat has been put in place to listen to the different stories of our country.We don't want to put anybody aside. We have to listen to both sides and thenwe have to understand that people suffered a lot and they were harassed. Someof them were harassed by the police, and some of them were harassed by the ANCand some other parties. As the Commission we have to find out the truth, andthen we have to listen to all people. I am trying to say this, that evenif we are listening here we are not allowed that if a person belongs to a differentparty then people should now start groaning, because if that is the case I willhave to clear this hall, because we are here to listen to different storiesfrom different people. If a person is a Nationalist Party we have to listento him. If he is white we have to listen to him, because we say this is a Truthand Reconciliation Commission. You do not reconcile with your friend, you reconcilewith your friend you hated before. Now, the President of the country has putus here to listen to everybody. I am now requesting that we do not react whenwe hear the stories that we don't associate ourselves with. We don't have tofeel any bad at all. By so saying I want to say to you, Mrs Matsunyane, that wefeel sorry for what you have been through. We don't mind which party you belongto, but you have the right to come before the Commission, you have the rightto get a sympathy from our side. As we have been saying throughout, we wouldask God to be with you, we would ask Him to console you. We want to thank you. MR BORAIN (Inaudible) ... to see you. You have a storyto tell about your son, who died in very mysterious circumstances, and we aregoing to listen very carefully to your story. It is a story full of grief, becauseto lose a son is very painful. I would ask you please to stand to take the oath. ERICA DOREEN MOTSABE KOKUNSI (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN DR MGOJO Can you speak Zulu or Xhosa? --- I speak Sotho. Ma'am, just relax and be free to tell all what you want totell the Commission. Don't reserve anything. This is your only chance whereyou can tell your pain. Can you please tell us about your family and the background,and when you have finished then tell us about this story, what happened? ---I was married in Zeerust. I am talking about something that I didn't declarein my statement. My surname was Mnisi. As I was married in Zeerust I stayedat home for 11 years, staying with my mother. After my mother had died - duringthose 11 years of staying at home I had a person that I got involved with becausemy husband had left me for quite a long time. That is Lindikile Mnisi. I hadtwo children. As I was still at home after my mother had died I asked my boss- there was absolutely no life at home, so I asked my boss to get me a housein Rockland. My boss couldn't get me a house in Rockland until I got this partnerthat I got involved with. I ultimately got divorced. Thereafter I went to stay in Rockland with my partner. We had a child, ason. Thereafter my son, Lindikile, I don't know whether he realised that wedidn't have a life, so he wasn't very impressed. My son disappeared. Duringthat time of his disappearance I heard stories that he was in Botswana. Theyused to name it Munsiwa at that time. I think my child was staying quite wellwith his stepmother. When he came back he was totally destroyed. When he cameback I tried to do some cultural cleansing so that my child could be fixed.That is our culture, it's part of our culture. Then he became fine. He wentto night school, he attended night school, because at the time he left he wasin standard seven or eight. As he was still attending this school he disappeared,and we didn't know where he went to. That was in 1976. That is when he starteddisappearing and reappearing. He would disappear for quite some time withoutus knowing where he was. At some stage I heard that he went with his friends.That was two children, Mr Madiba's children. They went with my son, they wentto Lesotho. As I was preparing myself to go to Lesotho to go and see my sonI met Mr Shele. He told me that he had met my son and my son had asked me tosend him a denim or a jean. He told me I mustn't go to Lesotho any more becausethey had gone to Tanzania. That very night I just couldn't sleep, I was crying,because I was preparing myself for Lesotho to see my son. Since then I haven'tseen him, since they said he went to Tanzania. The very same year I was surprisedwhen they inaugurated the President Mandela they said our children who had gonewould come back. I was looking forward that my son would also come back. I sawall the children had come back to Bloemfontein. I went to ask. There is another one who was afriend to my son. I asked this boy as to whether my son was coming back or not,because all of them had come back. I wanted to find out where my son was. Thisfriend told me that I shouldn't actually bother myself, because if my son wantedto contact me he would contact me, because he is alive. Then I went to Mrs Muthibiat UB Centre. I asked Mrs Muthibi whether they couldn't help me to look formy son, because since he went to Tanzania all the other children had come back,but mine hadn't come back. Way back in 1990, especially 1995, my younger childtold me that she had met Basi Muwadira. She told me that my brother had died.I felt very had because I didn't know what was happening, and apparently ourchildren do drink or take intoxicating liquor, so I didn't know what happened.Now, as we were told that we tried to make a follow up. I met Basi. Basi toldme that my son, Lindikile, had died. I tried to ignore him, and I told him thatall the children who had died were brought back to be buried by their parentsand their loved ones. How come my own son wasn't coming back to be buried? EvenBasi's relative - all the children were buried in Bloemfontein, so my son shouldalso come. I want to bury him, so I don't believe that my son is dead, or mychild. Muwadira came to me. He explained to me. He said he was always scaredto come and tell me. He told me that he didn't have a good life because he wasn'tworking. Then he tried to get work. Then he even got a partner. Then now hehas joined the police force. On that day, it was quite a few months ago, I feltmy shoulders going down, I felt very depressed. I prayed that the Lord wouldtry and heal me because I felt as if there was a hole in my heart,because now it was dawning on my that my child had died in 1985. But what surprisedme was I didn't know what had killed him. They alleged that he was killed bymalaria, but now how come I didn't get a report as to where he died? That surprisedme quite a lot. I don't have anything further to say. Thank you, Mama. Thank you for your narrative. I am just goingto ask just a few questions. You spoke about a certain Machel who brought amessage to you from your son in Lesotho. Who is this Machel, or who was thisMachel? --- His name is Shele, but I have forgotten his surname. Shele, that'sthe name. I just made a mistake because I never went around looking for theirnames or trying to get their names. I didn't get enough time because I had tocome to the Truth Commission, and I just didn't have the energy or the means.Even at yesterday my bosses released me so that I can prepare myself for thehearing. I was a little bit mentally disturbed. I feel like I am going mad becauseI don't know where my son died. Maybe if I could know where his corpse is andwhat killed him I could rest. (Pause) I have got no more questions. I just wantto know how can you help me to know the whereabouts of my son or his corpse,because since he died in 1985 I don't know anything about him. MR LAX Thank you, Mama. Just one small question please.You mentioned a friend of your son's that told you that he was still alive andthat had known him in Tanzania, but you didn't tell us the name of that friend. Could you please, if you can remember, tell us that name? ---That friend is Basi Muwadira. He told me that my son had died in Tanzania. Hesaid he had heard it from the other ones. When I think I just cannot understand.It's as if they are trying to hide something, as if my son had been killed orsomething had been done to him, but nobody is prepared to own up. They saidhe was killed by malaria. (Inaudible) ... try and look into the matter for you. There are no words that we can use to heal your wounds, andthere are no words that we can use to heal a broken or wounded spirit, but wewould like you to accept our comfort, even though the words cannot measure thepain that you've gone through. You've gone through so much pain. There are twothings that affect you emotionally - because you don't know what happened toyour son. That's the most devastating. Maybe he died, and he died a long timeago, but you don't know, you don't have any details as to how he died, or wherehe died. You've got no testimony as to what killed him. You've got no evidencewhatsoever that confirms as to whether that is true or not. The second one isthat you don't even know whether he is really dead, and if he is where are hisbones or his corpse. This Commission shall try by all means to help you by askingthe ANC whether they can explain or elaborate or give any knowledge whatsoeveras to what happened. But during all times that we are trying to help you, tosee what we can get with regard to your son's death, we ask the Lord to be with you and your family, to strengthen you,to comfort you and console you, to give you His grace. Thank you. MR BORAIN MR THAPEDI That's fine. MR BORAIN Fine, thank you. You're very, very welcome,and you have a very difficult story to tell, and we feel for you very much asyou start to tell that. Would you please stand for the taking of the oath, andyou can both stand together. MR AND MRS THAPEDI (Sworn, State) MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mycolleague, Mr Lyster, is going to take over from me, and he will guide you asyou tell your story. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER (Inaudible) ... body was exhumed and reburied. From where wasit exhumed, or don't you know that? If you don't know that just say you don'tknow that. --- They exhumed the body in Pahameng Cemetery. (Inaudible) ... Pahameng? --- Pahameng, it's one of the townshipsin Bloemfontein. You go straight - you go past Rockland and then on the left-handside that is Pahameng location. And who was it from the ANC that assisted you to - with thatprocess? Do you remember the person who assisted the family to exhume the body,and for the body to be reburied? --- I still remember him. His name is YT Mohapi. And you mentioned in your statement that someone from Bloemfontein,a Mr Mdewe, Oupa Mdewe, had notified you of your son's death and your son'sburial, is that correct? Mr Mdewe works at a pharmacy, he's a pharmacist, isthat right? --- Yes, he was also involved, but the person who gave us a clearindication was YT Mohapi. After you son went into exile, after he went to Lesotho and to Tanzania, did you hear from him after he hadgone there in 1982? Did he make contact with you? --- I personally went to Interiorand I found his file there, and I was told that I am late. They didn't tellme how late I was, but they told me that he was now in Tanzania. I personallywent to the Interior. (Inaudible) ... formal death certificate indicating that theperson who was buried was in fact you son? Do you have a death certificate likethat? --- I tried to find a death certificate, but the previous Government didn'ttake me into consideration. But the evidence that my son died is there, becausethere was a funeral service. As far as you know there was never any inquest or any sortof court case about the death of your son. Is that right? --- There was no courtcase. We were never called. Thank you, Mr Thapedi. I am going to ask any - hand over tothe Deputy-Chairman to see whether there are any other people who want to askquestions, and then we will go to your mother and ask whether she will confirmwhat you have said. MR BORAIN I wonder if I could suggest that we ask themother to speak first, because she may be able to give the ... (inaudible -end of Side B, Tape 3) --- The police came to our house and we were sleeping,but he was not there, I must say. They interrogated me. They wanted to knowhis whereabouts. You know, when they come they would come in large numbers,and each one of them will occupy an entrance, and they would even stand at thewindows. I am saying he is my son because I raised him up, and I said to him, "Can you please leave these people because they willend up killing you," and he said to me, "It doesn't matter whether they killme or not." We received a death certificate from the church. They asked me whetherdo I know that Abel Lethaba had died. I didn't follow the death certificate,but I was told that it was a death certificate from the Anglican Church. Theytook photos of him. I have the photos with me. You can have a look at them ifyou want to. Mrs Thapedi, were those photos taken after he had died, afteryour grandson had died? --- The photos were taken when we unveiled the tombstone.I have the photos with me here. And the death certificate. You can take themand have a look at them. Even today I have never heard anything. I have neverheard anybody coming to tell me what happened to my son. Mrs Thapedi, thank you. We will definitely have a look at thosedocuments after you have given your evidence. Are you satisfied ... (intervention)--- Can you please bring the documents. Are you satisfied, or are you not satisfied, that the person- that the body that you exhumed and reburied was your grandson? Are you satisfiedthat that was your grandson? --- I was never satisfied. He died here and theydidn't even tell me when they buried him. I don't know anything. Where are thosephotos? (Inaudible) ... absolutely sure you get them back. I promiseyou. Mrs Thapedi, so what you would like the Commission to do is to investigatehow your son died, and whether the body that you exhumed and reburied was infact your son, is that correct? --- I was never satisfied with the bones. Those were not the bones of my son. Mrs Thapedi, the Commission will do whatever it is able todo to try and investigate that matter and to try and clear up this confusion,this mystery as to the death of your son. I now ask - unless you've got anythingelse to say I'll ask the Deputy-Chairman to ask the other Commissioners whetherthey would like to ask any questions. MR BORAIN Thank you very much, Mr Lyster. Are thereany other questions? Yes, Dr Mgojo. DR MGOJO Just short questions just to get the wholepicture of this. Mr Thapedi, you said that you were working outside the country.Was it Lesotho? --- I think I've toured the whole country, but there are partsof the country that I couldn't reach, especially the very violent areas. You said in your story when you wanted to follow your son,when he had left, you were told that you must not follow him. Who are the peoplewho said that you must not follow him, and did they give you the reasons whyyou should not follow your son? --- Yes, they gave me a reason. They said hewill end up at the hands of the police. And then I thought to myself this istrue, because I don't know who was really after his back. Thank you. The last question but one about the exhumation ofthe body. Did you ask these people that they must exhume the body of your sonwhen this process took place? --- Yes, I agreed with them because I wanted tobe satisfied. Because I couldn't go to anybody to complain. I thought my heartwould be at ease, but I have realised that I am not satisfied at all. I am still notsatisfied, because he left in one piece, but when he came back he was in pieces,he was in bones. I don't have any evidence whether have we buried the rightperson or not. I think I have already said that I don't want us to go and exhumethe body, it's not necessary, because we have already put a tombstone, but Imust say the enemies must come forward and they should confess so that I canbe satisfied. If they tell me a different story I might be satisfied, but atthis moment I am not. (Inaudible) ... last question. You said during your testimonythat you received a death certificate from the church, and even suggested thatit was said that it was from the Anglican Church. Do you know which church,where it is situated, and who is the priest - or who was the priest or who isthe priest for that church? --- We didn't follow this issue. We only knew thatit was from the Anglican Church. Any reasons, Mama, why you didn't follow it, because this isan important thing. You get this certificate, you are hurt, your son has beenburied, you're not sure that it's your son, and then you get a clue that itis the church which has buried him. Was it because of fear or what that youdidn't follow this when there was a certificate? --- I was scared. I was afraidof following up this matter, and I didn't do anything. You wouldn't say anyword. As the father of this child I went to the mortuary to find the death certificate,but they didn't give me any clue. We have to get the death certificate at themortuary, but they couldn't give me one. I even went to the police to find outwhat happened, and they said, "We don't want to involve ourselves with peoplewho skipped the country." It was difficult because nobody wanted to listen tome. It was difficult for me then. Thank you. --- I think I wasn't at home when my mother receivedthe latest news and the death certificate. I have tried my best. I have beento places to find help, but no help was given to me, and she only received itby post. Thank you, Sir. MRS GCABASHE Mr Thapedi, can you please go back whenyou said something about the exhuming of the body. When you exhumed the bodywas there a doctor, or was there a person who could tell you whether those boneswere those of your son? --- No, they didn't want me to get that kind of information.I want to tell you - that is at the mortuary. I was only shown the bones, andI saw them at the mortuary, and that was the last time. Even when they wereat home I didn't want to open the case to have a look at the bones. MR LAX Mr Thapedi, attached to your statement is aburial order that was given to us. Firstly, can you confirm that this is a copyof the burial order that was actually given to you? --- We received that lettervery late. That person was just telling me that he will give me an informationas to what happened to my son. Even the names that are on that letter I do notknow them. Those are fictitious names. I know my son's names. He is Abel Thapedi.Those are just fictitious names. I do not know them. (Inaudible) ... follow up with him about that. Thank you. MR BORAIN Mrs Thapedi and Mr Thapedi, your son andgrandson died under very mysterious circumstances. One of the worst things isnot to know, not to be sure, and you have heard my colleagues tell you thatwe are going to do everything we can. We will try and talk with Mr Mohapi andalso with Mr Mdewe, and we will do everything we can to establish as much ofthe truth as we can, and as soon as we do we will be in touch with you again. In the meantime we give to you our love and our condolencesin the loss of your son. We have noted your requests. We will do everythingwe can to assist, and we trust that God will give you strength and grace tocontinue. And thank you again very much indeed for coming. MR BORAIN Good afternoon, Mr Olifant. You can hearme all right? MR OLIFANT Yes, Sir. MR BORAIN No problem? MR OLIFANT No problem. MR BORAIN Excellent. Thank you. A warm welcome to you.Thank you very much for coming. In a minute I am going to try and guide youas you tell your story, but we need for you to take the oath, so will you pleasestand. SHADRACK THEKO OLIFANT (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Please be seated. Ihope you will feel as relaxed as is possible in a setting like this. It's avery big hall, there are lots of people. Some of us you don't know, but we arehere on behalf of the nation, appointed by the President to hear your story,and I hope you'll feel very relaxed in telling that. Now, you are Shadrack ThekoOlifant. --- Yes, Sir. Tell me just a little bit about yourself before you tell thestory of how you were tortured and when it happened. You may start. --- My nameis Shadrack Theko Olifant. I used to tout the youth for the ANC, and I usedto canvass school children or students. I was working under Steve Bohatshu.On the 29th he came to me in the evening. It was 2.00 am. When Comrade cameto me he told me that the police were looking for them. I went with him. Hestayed next to the shops. He asked me to get into the shop and do his importantthings. He gave me money. I went there and took certain things. He told me thathe won't be in for the following afternoon at the shop. He owned the shop actually. So he told me where I wouldget him. He went away, he left me. On the 3rd police came. I was at the wholesaleto order some stock for his shop. I was the only one who knew where he was.All the other people didn't know where he was. As I was in the wholesale buyingthe stock there came three Afrikaners. When they got to me they arrested me.I was pushing the trolley, because the students were using the shop to eat theirlunch. They asked me where my friend was. Then they made me leave the trolley.They arrested me, they took me to the shop. The children or the students whowere eating there at lunch time were also arrested. They believed that I wasworking with the students. Another one was an elderly man. His name was Mr Mohumutsi.The children were assaulted. I got other Afrikaner-speaking people who werein the office. The office was inside the shop. They asked me why I was in theshop, why I was busy in the shop if Steve wasn't there. They also assaultedme. They said I knew where Steve was. They searched the shop. There are certainthings that they got, but I don't know particularly what the things were. Thenthey went away and they left me. It was during the day. In the evening whenI went back home I heard that the police were looking for me. I asked my motherwhy were they looking for me. Then I went to the Comrades with whom I was living.I told the Comrades that they were looking for me as well as them. In the eveningI went to Comrade Steve. I told him the events of the day. I had to look fora place to stay, I couldn't go back home. Thereafter the Comrades with whomI was working, that is the Vulamasango Comrades, they were also wanted. All in all we were 22. We went to stay at my grandfather'splace, all of us. Thank you very much. There are a few questions which I'd liketo ask to make sure I understand your story. First, just to help me, what wasthe name of your grandfather? --- His name was George Musi. Thank you. Now in 1986, when you and your fellow Comrades triedto leave the country, how old were you then? --- I was 26. Now, you mentioned that you were first picked up by the soldiers and you were in a soldiers' camp, and then theSpecial Branch came and they took to you a police station in Ladybrand, andthen on to - back to Bloemfontein. That's right? And where you were badly assaultedin the camp, but also at the Fountain. Now, you were charged, were you, underthe Terrorism Act? Were you ever found guilty, or were you acquitted, or whathappened? --- The police were looking for the Comrades. The Comrades when theygot to court they never testified according to what they told the police, orin accordance with what they told the police. (Inaudible) ... what happened at the end of the trial? Wereyou just dismissed, or did you spend time in gaol? What happened? --- The casejust ended there and they just released us. As we were free we continued beingharassed despite that the case just ended there. But you were badly harassed, but you were never put back intogaol? --- After we had finished in court we were taken - I was taken to my place.I never went back to prison. I was taken to Rockland. Now, you were very worried because some people thought thatyou had been responsible for the death of your grandfather. Now, your grandfatherwas the one who helped you, who looked after you, and then you left to try andcross the border. What did the - there was no court case about the death ofyour grandfather? Was there no trial, or nobody accused of killing him? ---No, there was never any court case. It was just talk, common talk, that I killedhim. It was just a rumour, and that's where it ended as a rumour. (Inaudible) ... did he - was he shot, or was he assaulted, or knifed, or how did he meet his death? --- Myfather was woken up in the morning. Apparently he was shot and doused with petroland set alight. (Inaudible) ... feel badly because people thought that youwere involved? --- Yes. Even my family, my father's family. I can't get to thembecause they always have this suspicion that I killed my grandfather. We've heard that - and you've named a number of names. Amongstthe names that you've mentioned were those who harassed you, or arrested you,or were also - were they some who beat you up and gave you electric shocks inprison? --- It's Nick Swanepoel and Terblanche. They were the ones who violatedme, who assaulted me and electrocuted me. Thank you very much. You've had a very rough time, not onlybecause you were assaulted and beaten up, but I think the dark cloud which hashung over you about your grandfather, and we will do what we can to try andhelp. But my colleagues may have other questions, so I am going to ask if theywould like to ask any more. MR LYSTER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Olifant, you,like others who have given statements and who will give testimony tomorrow,have talked about Fountain, where the Security Branch had their headquarters.Was it at Fountain that you were tortured by means of electric shocks and beatings?You did mention another place in Bloemfontein, Ramkraal. --- Yes, from Ladybrandthey took us to Ramkraal. At Ramkraal that's where they just keep people. It'snot a prison, it's not a police station. From there we were taken to Fountain.That is the Special Branch. That's the office of the Special Branch.We were taken there. That's where we were tortured. But they kept on torturingus from Ladybrand up to here. That is the soldiers now who were doing the torturing. How did they administer electric shocks to you? --- What theydid, they electrocuted my private parts. The other one switched on the light.The other one kept on asking, "Do you want to tell us where Steve is?" I kepton telling them that I didn't know where Steve was. They kept on electrocutingme, telling me that I should tell the truth, until such time that I lost consciousness.They were using these electric shocks. They were also strangling me with a towel. (Inaudible) ... a towel round your throat, or was it a bagover your head? --- They were actually strangling me. The other one was holdingone end of the towel and the other one was holding the other end of the towel,and each one was pulling to different sides. That's when I lost consciousness. DR MGOJO Thank you, Sir. Mr Olifant, it would appearthat what is more hurtful is the accusation that you murdered your grandfather,even more than the tortures you received in those police stations. You justmade one statement that it is suspected that the person who said that you killedyour grandfather is the one who killed him. Can you say something more aboutthat? --- I didn't hear that quite well. Could you kindly repeat it. In your statement, your narrative, you said that it is suspectedthat the person who said that you killed your /grandfather grandfather is the one who killed him. Is that correct? --- That was a rumour that was circulating at that time I wasbeing tortured, but I got it thereafter that the actual person who was involvedwas the person I was related to. He was pointed out, but I didn't have any informationas far as that was concerned. I only was told that later, because when my grandfatherdied I was arrested, I was in custody. I was in custody at that time. We werearrested on the 6th, so I wasn't there when he died. So that person was tellingme - the one who was torturing me told me that he was going to kill me likemy grandfather. At that time I didn't know what he was referring to. I onlydiscovered it later on. The last question. I am just going around this thing. You havesaid in your statement that some of your Comrades became State witnesses. Itmeans that they were working against you now. Do you think that maybe they arethe ones who spread this rumour that you killed your grandfather? --- I don'tthink it's them. MR BORAIN Mr Olifant, we have already expressed oursympathy to you for the treatment you have received. I hope very much that yourfamily will become re-united, that they will accept you back, and that theywill put behind you and behind them this ugly rumour that has caused you somuch pain. We, on our side, will do everything we can to try and see what wecan find out about that, and thank you again for coming, and may God empoweryou. Thank you. --- Thank you, Sir. MR BORAIN Mrs Motsaneng, good afternoon. Can you hearme all right? MRS MOTSANENG Yes, I can hear you. MR BORAIN That's good. Sometimes we have trouble withthe headphones, but today it looks as though we're really doing very well indeed.Thank you so much for coming. You have waited a long time today, and there arestill others who are waiting, so we would like you to tell your story and whathappened - and particularly what happened to your son, Ernest. But before youdo that I would like you to please stand for the taking of the oath. DIKALEDI ADELAIDE MOTSANENG (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Please be seated. Thereare so many from this part of the world who had sons, and sometimes perhapsdaughters I suppose, or fathers, or mothers, who went into exile, and thereseems to be such a mystery surrounding some of their journeys, and indeed theirdeaths. That's part of the story that you are going to tell, and Mr Ilan Laxis going to guide you now. Thank you. MR LAX Thank you, Mr Motsaneng, for coming to talkto us this afternoon. Before I take you through the story could you just confirm- your son was born on the 1st of March 1962, is that correct? --- Yes, that'scorrect. Can I just ask you a few questions to clarify some aspectsplease? This person who told you about this words and finding your son's body,do you know his name at all -the person from Johannesburg? --- I do not knowhis name, but I think the ANC office in Gauteng will know his name. Now, together with your son's body there were some documentswhich came back which you've given to us. Do you remember those documents? ---Yes, I have the documents. We have made copies of those documents. You're aware of that?Now, one of those documents is what appears to be a death certificate in Portuguese.--- Yes. I asked them. "These papers are written in Portuguese. I don't haveany idea." They said, "Keep them safe. Just before the funeral is over we wouldhave changed those into English," but it never happened that they changed thedocuments. Well, perhaps we can get that done for you. Apart from thestory of an exchange of words and your son being found outside in a pool ofblood, in your statement you also tell us that someone else told you that yourson had a stroke. Is that correct? --- The ANC people told me that my son hadbeen killed because he had stroke. I asked them, "Is it possible that you coulddie of stroke and his bones be broken?" because he had a fracture in his bone. Now, you told us about - sorry, before I move on, who in theANC - do you know who the people were who told you your son had a stroke? --- It was Mr Malebu who told methat my son died of stroke. Now, you spoke about two or three people that should have comeback with your son. Who are these people you are talking about? You said hewasn't to come back alone, but he was to come back with two or three other people.--- It's what they told me, that if one is supposed to come home he can't bealone, there should be two of them or three of them. You don't know what that means? His friends, or his family,or people of that kind? --- I think they are talking about the Comrades. You don't know whether your son had any - a wife maybe in Angola,or any children there? --- He was staying with a girl and they had a kid. Have you had any contact with them at all? --- I have onlyphotos. I don't even know her and she doesn't even know me. I've also been led to believe that the police in Angola wereinvestigating your son's death. Do you know about that? --- The Comrades toldme so. Even Macdonald told me. (Inaudible) ... had any further reports about that investigation?--- I got only one. (Inaudible) ... there's nothing coming through. --- I havenever received any report from him, and nobody ever came to me to tell me whathappened to him. Thank you. We can possibly follow that up for you. Thank you,Chairperson. MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Is there anyone else who would like to - yes, Dr Mgojo. DR MGOJO Just one question, Ma Adelaide. In your questionjust now you have mentioned - you have made mention of a girl. There's a girlwho gave you Matzifiso's - your son's telephone number when he was out of thecountry, and then there's a girl who stayed with your son, and they had a kidwhen he was outside the country. Is this one girl or two girls? --- The onewho had the telephone number stays here in Bloemfontein, and the one he hasa child with stays in Angola. This one in Bloemfontein, do you know how she came to knowabout your son's telephone number? --- The Macdonald that I have referred tois the brother to this girl. He is the brother to this girl. Thank you, Sir. MR BORAIN Any further questions? Thank you very much.What we have discovered so many times on this Commission is that the situationin our country, particularly in the 1970s and 80s, was so turbulent, so muchconflict, so much confusion, and so many young people leaving the country, tryingto resist the system at the time. Many of them have come back, and it's very,very hard for people like yourself, whose son was away for such a long time,you hardly ever heard a word, and then you have a promise of him coming backand then he doesn't come, and you wait, and when he does come it's a body ina coffin, and you don't understand what happened to him, and that's perhapsthe hardest thing of all. And my colleagues have already told you that we are going todo everything we can. That is why we ask the questions. Not because we are inquisitive, it's just that weneed to know so that we can help you. We will try our best, and we will do everythingwe can to assist, and once we've made the inquiries, and when we have some information,we will come back to you. Thank you very much for coming, and I hope that in the tellingof the story something of the burden that you have been carrying for so longwill be in a small way lifted. Thank you very much. MR BORAIN Mrs Jakila, we welcome you, and can I makesure that you can hear me through the earphones. MRS JAKILA I can hear you. MR BORAIN Loud and clear? MRS JAKILA I can hear you clearly. MR BORAIN Thank you very much. If you can put the mikeas close to her as possible please. Mrs Jakila, we have been talking this afternoonabout not really knowing sometimes where our loved ones are and what happenedto them. Your situation is about the disappearance of Andries Gorape, and you'regoing to tell us about that in a moment. And it's a long time ago, but I amsure it's very, very painful for you still. Would you please stand to take theoath before we start. BERNICE JAKILA (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN MR DLAMINI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mama Jakila, thankyou for the time that you have accorded us. I would request you to tell us yourstory. It is a painful story, as the Chairperson has said already, but for usto be able to make an attempt in helping you it's only when you try and tellus as clear as possible, giving us all the clues that you think will help usto assist you. Thank you, and may I request you to start telling us about thecircumstances around which your son disappeared, and any other relevant informationthat you think would be of use to the Commission in order to help you. Thankyou. --- In 1964 I moved from home and I went to Gauteng. I left mychildren with their grandmother. As I was in Gauteng I heard that my childrenwere also in Gauteng, but I was staying in Orange Grove, where I was workingas a domestic worker. As they were still there in 1976, when there were riotsor uprisings in 1976 in Soweto, after about a few days Jeremiah - that is hisbrother - came to ask me where Andries was. I said I didn't know anything becauseI was staying at Orange Grove. He told me that nine days has lapsed since hedisappeared. I told him I hadn't seen him. I told him to go back to the locationto try and find out, because I could not go out. We were being arrested in termsof the pass laws. But I went to the police stations in town. I went to JohnVorster Square. When we were still coming they just chased us away. They toldus that they knew what we wanted and they were not interested to assist us.I went to Number Four. They also refused to help me. I went to Modder B Prison.There they tried to look at their documents, as well as files, but they saidthe couldn't locate him. That is when I felt I couldn't get him. I had a hopethat when the others were coming back he was also going to come back. As timewent on I realised that he wasn't coming back. I was now reaching my tether,because I just couldn't get any help. Right now my heart is very sore becauseI don't know what is happening to my son, or what happened to him. I don't haveany more to say. Thank you, Mrs Jakila. Perhaps a few clarifying questions.When you say that you were hoping that your son was going to come back togetherwith others who were returning to the country, is it because you were underthe impression that he had been on exile? --- Yes, I thought so,because he wasn't the only one who had disappeared from Soweto. Quite a numberof kids had disappeared, so I thought the was part of them, or he was one ofthose who disappeared, but I really didn't have any clarity. Thank you. Did you have any clues from his friends or peoplewho were close to him as to when they last saw him what he was doing and wherehe was? --- His brother, that is Jeremiah, I urged him to try and find out inSoweto as to what happened to his brother. Then he came back and told me thatthey said since he went to work in the morning, and there's nothing that theyheard from him thereafter. Even today we haven't heard anything, not even theslightest rumour or clue. From his brother, Jeremiah, was he involved in political activitiesor youth activities? --- I really don't know because I wasn't staying with them.But what I know is that they had just arrived in Gauteng and he was only 16years old, he didn't have a pass or an identity document. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I hand over to you? MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Any other questions?Mr Lax. MR LAX Thank you. Mrs Jakila, did your son, Andries,have any nicknames or other names that he might have used which might help usto trace him? --- His nickname was Baba. That's what we affectionately calledhim. Might he have used a different surname maybe? --- He was usingGorape. Your other son, Jeremiah, where is he at the moment? --- Jeremiahis in Thembisa at the moment. So our people could maybe speak to him and try and get someinformation from him. --- Yes, but I don't have his full address. I am not reallysure where he stays, but I know where he works. Perhaps you could give that to our people later if that's possibleplease. Thank you. MR BORAIN Thank you, Mrs Jakila. It's 20 years ago.It's very hard to get any information from what you have told us. You are stillin the dark today as you were then, but, you know, it occurred to me once againthat when we had this uprising in 1976, where so many young people went intoexile, or disappeared, or were killed, or were in gaol, and like so many mothersyou, when you heard about the disappearance of your son - it becomes almostlike a refrain, almost like a song. "I went to the prisons, I went to the policestations, I went to the hospitals, I went to the friends, and I couldn't findhim." It's a very sad song that many, many mothers have had to sing, and wefeel deeply for you. We can't make promises that we can't keep, but we will try.We will try and do whatever we can to see if we can find at least what happenedto that young 16-year-old. Thank you very much for coming, and may God comfortyou in your loneliness. Thank you. MR BORAIN Mrs Butsibo, would you please identify yourself.Have you both got the earphones on? MRS BUTSIBO I am Paulina Butsibo. MR BORAIN Thank you very much. So you must be EsterTsetsi. I hope I'm pronouncing the name correctly. If I am not please forgiveme. The reason why we have asked you to come together is because you both lostyour sons, and they were both killed on the same day in the same event, thesame incident, so we thought it would be helpful to hear your stories together.Mr Lax is going to guide you in a minute, but again it was 1992, after the Presidentwas released from prison, after many people had come back, and it's very tragic- but that is your story, and we'd much prefer to hear from you. Would you bothplease stand together to take the oath. PAULINA BUTSIBO and ESTER TSETSI (Sworn, State) MR BORAIN MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Good afternoon and greetingsto both of you. --- Good afternoon, Sir. This witness you talk about, is that a person who actuallysaw what happened to your son? --- I was at work. I just heard that they were together, that is Mzimbiand my son. How old was your son? When was he born? --- When he died hewas 25 years old. He was born in 1968 on the 5th of May. Thank you. Have you receive any documentation with regard toyour son's death, any death certificate, or do you know of any cases that mighthave happened? --- What I got was a death certificate. I do have it. I got it.In 1993, on the 23rd of February, I got a letter which said I must go to court.They also phoned me and asked me whether I had got the letter. My boss releasedme so that I could attend to this matter. I told her that on the 23rd of FebruaryI am supposed to be in court with regard to my son's death. I went to the court.Our names were called, but nothing happened. Even the person who shot my son,that is Ronnie Mudikwe, there's nothing that he said. (Inaudible) ... was this? --- That was in Heilbron. Since then have you heard anything more about the case? ---There is nothing I ever heard thereafter. Up til today I know absolutely nothing. (Inaudible) ... will look into that and be able to try andget back to you with what actually happened about that case. Chairperson, justfor a moment, with your guidance, should we proceed with the other statementbefore we ask questions, or do you think we should ask questions at this stage?I will just wait for your instructions. MR BORAIN I think it would be more helpful to the witnesses to continue and then have the questions afterwards.It's a very painful thing this. And also we might be able to get a little moreinformation and save duplication. Thank you. MR LAX Are you finished, Mama, for now? Can I just confirm somethingwith you? You received a letter to come to court to an inquest hearing. Do youremember that? --- Yes, I did get the letter. Did you actually go to court? --- Yes, I did go to court. What happened there? --- When I got to the court we sat there.We were read a Bible, a very big Bible by the Magistrate. From there he toldme that my child had died. He told me that he had lost blood. That's all thathe told me. Do you remember when - what date that was that you went tocourt by any chance? --- It was on the 23rd in 1993. Thank you. This person that you spoke about as a witness, BusisiweMoloi, is that the Busisiwe you're talking about? --- Yes, it is the Busisiwethat I have been talking about, Busisiwe Moloi. And do you know where we could find her if we wanted to getsome information from her? --- She stays in Heilbron, but she ran away becauseshe was scared to come and testify. I did let her know that I was going to comeand testify, but she never turned up. Do you know of any other possible witnesses we could talk to?--- I don't know of any other people. Busisiwe knows those people. Thank you. Have you received a death certificate in relation to your son's death? --- Yes, I did get the deathcertificate. And you've just confirmed for us that he was at Heilbron Hospitalwhere he was treated and where he died. --- Yes. Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Mrs Tsetsi. MR BORAIN Thank you. Anyone else? Yes, Mr Dlamini. MR DLAMINI Thank you, Mr Chair. Also under the samepoint of witnesses, according to Mrs Butsibo's statement there is a name ofFosewa Mputhi that is mentioned. Can he be one of the witnesses who could helpus in investigating? --- Yes, he is a witness. Do you know his address where we can contact him in case weneed to talk to him? --- I am not really sure about his address, but I believethat the person who was taking the statement took all the particulars of thewitness. One more question to Mrs Tsetsi. It's of concern that yourson reportedly died of excessive bleeding, and when one looks at the times asrecorded in the statement, between the time that the incident took place whenhe was shot and the time that he actually got to hospital, can I confirm thosetimes, because it looks an unusually big gap. What time was he shot roughly?--- He was shot at about half past 12. Then he went to the hospital at approximatelyone - approximately one. So he was not shot in the morning? --- No, he wasn't shot inthe morning. He was shot during the day. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was concerned because according tothe statement he is reported to have been shot in the morning, and only to be admitted at half past one.Thank you. DR MGOJO Chairperson, some of the questions have beenarticulated by Brother Mdu Dlamini, but I just want to check whether maybe it'smy hearing which was wrong. Paulina mentioned one of the witnesses as MzimbiMoloi. Is there any person like that, or maybe I didn't understand what ...(inaudible) --- Yes, that is true, it is Mzimbi Moloi. Is there any reason why in your statement you didn't writehim as a witness, because in your document here you wrote as a witness FosewaMputhi? --- I do not know of any Fosewa Mputhi. I know Mzimbi Moloi. On the13th when the Truth Commission was in Heilbron Mputhi was there. (Inaudible) ... correct this document so that we put the rightwitness. Thank you. MRS GCABASHE Mrs Butsibo, according to your statementyou talked about Mr Mapena. How is Mr Mapena involved in here? --- Mr Mapenawas a Comrade. He is the one who was helping us to run up and down, go to thepolice stations to try and find out what happened. Thank you. MR LYSTER Either of the two witnesses could answerthis one. You said that at that time there was shooting, the soldiers were shootingin the townships. Do you know what was going on at the time in the township?Why were there soldiers there and why were they shooting at people? --- At thattime there wasn't much. It was just the Sasol students. Now all the Comrades were trying to sort out their matters, their organisation's matters. They had beenarrested. Now we don't know who called the Casspir from Harrismith. They justcame and shot, but there wasn't any altercation. There was absolutely nothingthat - the policeman said they were stoning his house, but that's unbelievablebecause it was just a quiet march. Our children were killed by the Heilbronpolice. That soldier made a mistake of taking him around the location. That'show he lost blood or bled excessively. You think that he was shot, and then he was put in the Hippoand they travelled around with him while he was still alive in the Hippo forsome time, and only after some time they took him to the hospital. --- Yes,that's what I said exactly. And you said that when you examined his body, when you identifiedhis body, it was evident that it had been rolling around in the Hippo becauseit was very, very dirty. Is that correct? --- Yes, I said that. Now, this policeman, Shidiso Hlongwane, do you know where heis? Or is he a soldier or a policeman? A policeman. --- It's a policeman. Idon't know where he disappeared, because he is no long working in Heilbron.I don't see him any more. And was it Busisiwe Moloi who told you that the name of thepoliceman who shot these two boys, your sons, was Hlongwane? --- Yes, she isthe one who told us, as well as Feddington saw him. (Inaudible) ... Busisiwe Moloi the same person as Mzimbi Moloi,or are they two different people? --- No, they are different. It's two separatepersons. And the death certificate, what does that read as the cause of death? There's no death certificate, is there?--- No, the Magistrate told me by word of mouth. I didn't get any death certificate. Thank you very much. MR BORAIN It's not easy to find words after listeningto the story. It's tragic when a young man is killed, and possibly even moretragic when it's a 14-year-old boy who probably was just shot in the crossfirein a time of conflict. We heard that you would like some tombstones to be putto commemorate the deaths of your sons, and perhaps even a creche in memoryof perhaps your son, and other young people who were killed. We will certainlytake that message to the right people and see what we can do. Nothing can bringyour sons back, but we are grateful that we are now living in a time where itis less likely that this will happen again, and one of the reasons why we havethis Truth and Reconciliation Commission is to remind all of us of the heavy,heavy cost and the heavy price that we have had to pay, and to remind us thatwe must work together so that it never happens again. I hope that just by virtue that you are sitting together, thatyou are mothers united in a common loss, that this will be of some strengthto you, and that so many other mothers and so many other families together willhelp to build a new South Africa, so that young boys and young men will neverdie in vain again. Thank you very much indeed for coming. MR BORAIN Good afternoon, Mr Marais. You can hear meall right? MR MARAIS Yes, I can hear you. MR BORAIN Tell me, who is the lady who is sitting withyou? MR MARAIS This is my mother. MR BORAIN We are very, very glad to welcome you also,very glad to see you. Now, you've have a very long wait, and it's long in theafternoon, and you are the last witness, but your story is as important as everybodyelse's, and you're going to tell us about what happened to you. Not about someoneelse, but about what happened to you, particularly at the time when you weredetained and also tortured. But before you do so I'd be grateful if you, MrMarais, would please stand for the oath. EZEKIEL MATSIDISO MARAIS (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN Thank you very much. Will you be seated please.My colleague, Mrs Gcabashe, is going to lead you and assist you in the tellingof your own story, and I am going to hand over to her now. Thank you. MRS GCABASHE I greet you, Matsidiso. Mr Chairpersonhas already said that you've been waiting since this morning to appear beforethe Commission. I want to thank you for the patience. I want to thank you forwaiting to come and appear here so that we can all know the truth of what happenedto you. Is your mother going to help you as you relate your story? --- Yes,I am going to say a few words, and she will also add something. Is it fine if I call you Matsidiso? Tell us briefly where doyou stay, where do you come from, who is your family? --- I stay in Bathu location, a section called Fourand Six, but I use the Rockland address where I am staying. I live in a shackclose to Mangawung School, but I actually come from Rockland. You said ... (incomplete) --- My home is in Rockland, There is something - you've just said now you live in Mangawung.Can you please elaborate? --- I erected a shack close to the school in a ground.Yes, I have two places where I stay, but it's two years now that I have beenstaying at Four and Six. You are here to tell us about the torture at the Fountain SecurityBranch. --- Yes, that's right. I have a question that I would like to ask you. You said youjoined the ANC in 1976. --- It was around 1977 when I joined. What happened then in 1980? --- In 1980 I was arrested. Itwas '79 when I remember well. The schools were closing on that day. I wantedto say we were closing the shops down because we wanted to mourn for the June16 day. The police arrested us. We've already closed down all the shops aroundMangawung. I think it was the last shop that we were supposed to go to, andthe owner of that shop called the police. Very close to the hostel the policecame and they arrested us. They asked us what have we done to the shop owners,why do we tell people to close down their shops? I intimidated that gentleman.I said, "What have we said to you?" He said, "You told me to close down ourshops." They took us to Fountain Security Branch, and on our way a black policemenslapped one of the people who were arrested, and he used his elbow to press him against the seat. He left him and then he lookedat me. He also slapped me. I just looked at him. We were now getting into thetown. He was now talking nicely to us, and he asked us what do we want to bein the future. And then I can't remember what answer did we give him. When wearrived at Fountain Security Branch we parked on the other side, and the otherside was Fountain Security Branch. This hefty man was holding me and I was juston my tiptoes. When we got into the building Hendrik Prinsloo came in, and hesaid to me he thinks he knows me. And he quickly grabbed one of the Comrades,or one of the people who was in our company, he started assaulting him. He hithim against the wall. He even used his fists. Matsidiso, I want to take you back. You said the Amabutho attackedyou. Can you please tell us who do you refer to when you say Amabutho? --- Thefirst time when the Amabutho attacked me it was in 1986. I was from the ANCtraining. Who are these Amabutho? --- These were the police under theleadership of Mayor Matobisa. Thank you. You say you've been in gaol for six months. ---No, I was arrested because - can you please repeat that question. No, the ANCComrades arrested me. He was an MK member. You said to us you were injured. Did you go to the doctor?Did you go to the doctor because you were injured? --- Are you referring tothe attacks by the Amabutho? Yes, I went to Philonomi Hospital. I only wokeup at Philonomi Hospital. I don't know who took me to the hospital. These peoplewho assaulted me, they did all this at ... (inaudible) ... they had a police dog with them. Can I please take you back once more. Do you know the nameof the doctor who examined you? --- No, I don't know the doctor's name, butI think the files are still there. Now, the name of the hospital you went to? --- I went to PhilonomiHospital. Do you have any record that will tell us that you've been admittedto the s hospital? If we want to know further about your stay in hospital shallwe get any document? --- No, I don't have any document with me, but there isinformation. Even at the hospital I saw the policemen who tortured me, togetherwith Gerrard who used to search my home. I wanted to run away, but another girltook me back to the bed. Matsidiso, we want to thank you. We have listened to the wayin which you were tortured and we feel very sorry. You said to us you even wentto the hospital to see the doctor. We will try to find out from the doctor whatkind of help can we give you. Are you still under medication? --- No, not atthis stage. Are you employed? --- No, I was expelled in 1980. Thank you very much, Matsidiso. I will now take everythingback to the Chairman. --- I think I didn't mention most of the things that Iwanted to say. I was told that some of the things I will come and say beforethe Commission. The torture that they did to me I didn't talk about. I thinkthe people who tortured me were from the Inkatha, because they were speakinga different language. Thank you very much. We will try to find out from the hospitalwhat happened. MR LYSTER Mr Marais, you said that there were threeseparate occasions where you were tortured or assaulted. One was in 1979. Thatwas when you were taken to the Fountain Security Branch headquarters. Againin 1980 you were taken to the Fountain Security Branch headquarters, and againin 1991 when you were attacked or assaulted at your home by the Amabutho. Isthat correct? --- When the Amabutho assaulted me it was in 1990. But is it correct that you were taken in 1979 to Fountain SecurityBranch and you were tortured there, and again in 1980? --- Yes, that's true. (Inaudible) ... can you take us now to 1980. You said that... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 4) ... it said that there was rent boycottin your area, and that you were arrested for that and taken to Fountain, andyou were tortured and you got injuries to your neck. Is that correct? --- In1980 we were busy closing the shops down when we got arrested, and I was takento Fountain Security Branch. There were four of us. When we arrived in Fountainthe other police said he knows me. It was Hendrik. And the others went back.He looked at me and he said, "It's you again." It was the second time now thatI had been arrested. And he was pulling me with my pairs of trousers in hisoffice. He was slippering (sic) me on the floor. When we got into hisoffice he trampled on me as much as he could. I was rolling on the floor. Hecontinually trampled on me, and he said, "I am going to kill you." And he saidto me, "You are a kaffir," and I said to them, "What do you want?" He askedme what is it that we wanted, and I told him about the education that was in poor conditions, and I told him that we didn't findanything wrong with closing down the shops. And he continually told me thatI was a bad kaffir. He had already trampled me enough on my neck. He was hefty,he was well built, and I was a young and upcoming youngster, and my neck hadbeen giving me trouble since that day until now. (Inaudible) ... you were assaulted at your house by the Amabuthoin 1991. Is that correct? --- 1991? 1991 you said ... (inaudible) --- Yes, I think it was in 1990.I didn't mention the ANC trial. It was in 1985. But I think I indicated thatin my statement. (Inaudible) ... you mentioned that in your statement. If youcan just finally tell us about how you were assaulted by the Amabutho, and thenwe'll ask your mother if she has anything that she wishes to say or to confirm.In 1990 or 1991 you were beaten, you said, by the Amabutho, is that correct?--- No, I didn't mention anything about the ANC. I was poisoned, I even wentto the doctor, and my ankles were swollen. They were supposed to interrogateme, but when we were on our way they discovered that I couldn't walk, and theyasked me, "Why are you walking so slowly?" I told them that my legs were swollen.I didn't want to tell him what happened because I knew that I was going to revengeat one stage, and they took me to a doctor called Dr Oosthuizen. I tried totell this doctor everything, but he didn't want to listen to me. The policemenalso encouraged me to tell the doctor what happened. They were begging me toeat, and the Fountain Police wanted to know why was I not eating, and I wouldonly keep quiet and ignore them. I didn't realise that they were poisoning me. At night when Iam asleep I would feel my head going round. I would as if there is a persontrampling on me. At times I would even feel like, you know, a train is justdriving on my body. And I was told that the food that I ate affected me. Theytook me to the doctor then, and the doctor gave me an ointment and some fewtablets. They did not give me tablets. I went to Burke Road Police Station,and that's where they gave me the tablets. I didn't trust this policeman anymore when he called me. You know, I was suspicious, and I thought he was goingto tell me something funny and I didn't give heed to what he was saying. I tookthe tablets and I swallowed them. I pretended as if I swallowed them, but Iput them under my tongue. And then I showed them to one of my friends. I said,"Look, here are their tablets. I am not going to drink them," and truly thatwas the end of it. (Inaudible) ... about all those things, and we have got allthat information in your statement, which you've now confirmed. Thank you verymuch for sharing all these terrible things with us. This is something that'sbeen happening to you since 1979, it's over 15 years, and we understand thepain and suffering that you have experienced. Is there anything that your motherwould like to - just to confirm now? She is on the stage with you. Is there- she hasn't made a statement, and we don't normally allow people to give evidenceunless they have made a statement, but if there is something important and briefthat she would like to say ... do you want to say that? She will have to besworn in first. MR BORAIN Could I ask you, Mrs Marais, do you wantto add anything at all? Do you wish to add anything? MRS MARAIS I just wanted to indicate that the conditionyou see him in ... (intervention) MR BORAIN ... interrupt you, but I cannot hear youunless you have taken an oath, so would you please stand to take the oath. MRS MARAIS (Sworn, States) MR BORAIN Mrs Marais, we have heard at some lengthfrom you son, and if there is something new that you have to say please tellus now. --- I just want to say that I was very hurt, because when my son wasreleased from the cells he wasn't himself any more. I was so hurt. Why did theytake his penis and electrocuted him? He was a man and they had to do that. Whydid they do that with him? As you see him now he is not the child I gave birthto. I cannot understand him any more. He doesn't understand whether he is livingor he is dead. And the police did this to him because they continually pickedhim up at home, and they would torture him, they would assault him. They havereally destroyed the life of my child. He can hardly do anything. He stays withthe chickens and the doves and pigeons in the house. My house is so dirty. Hedoesn't want to live with people. He prefers to live with these birds that Ihave mentioned. That is why he doesn't stay with us. I thank you. There is nothingmore that I would say to you. Thank you for that. I just have to ask you one question. Yourson, is he receiving any medical treatment at all at the moment, either at aclinic or at a hospital or from a doctor? --- No, he refused to go to the doctors because he doesn't want any white person. He goes tothe hospital. The day he feels he has to go to the hospital he just goes. I can understand that having suffered as much as he has, andhaving these dreadful experiences, that he would be very suspicious of anybody,of any person, and perhaps that's why he finds it difficult, and we may be ableto see what we can do, to talk to the local medical people to find out if wecan offer some help. Now, I want to thank Ezekiel, and thank you as his mother,for coming. So much of what has happened has destroyed so much in our country,and it's particularly tragic when we see young people who have been so badlydamaged. We will do everything we can. We have listened very carefully to thoseexperiences, and in particular we will discuss the situation with the medicalpeople here in Bloemfontein and see what help we can do. Thank you again verymuch indeed for coming. God be with you. --- Thank you very much, Sir.