hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS BLOEMFONTEIN 2 Mr Tshabalala, Betty Laliwe Lowape, Morgan Sabatha Phehlani, Pumla Marina Mashoang, Bhaki George Morake, Mrs G S Daseko, Modisi Elias Moyhilwa, Mamarama Tshale, Mr Pistsol, Shuping Josiah Motlale, Mr E Molatseli, Shadrack Rataba and Jonas Molehe, Mr B Bolane https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56202&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvbloem/bloem2.htm DR BORAINE Good Morning, Mr Tshabalala. I gather thatyou can hear me all right? Can you just switch on the microphone please? Thankyou. You can hear me all right? MR TSHABALALA I can hear you quite well. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Mr Tshabalala, youhave brought somebody with you. Could you please tell me who that is? MR TSHABALALA This is my mother, Emily Charles. DR BORAINE I'd like to welcome you, Mrs Tshabalala,very much. We are glad that you have joined your son whilst he is talking tous. Mr Tshabalala, you're going to tell us about a cousin, Edward Viyu Charles,who was killed, and even though it's not a brother or a sister, a father ora mother, it's a part of you, a part of your family, and we know that you feelthis deeply, and we are very glad that you've come to tell this story aboutyour cousin. Now, I have to ask you please to stand to take the oath. MR TSHABALALA (Sworn, States) DR BORAINE MR LAX Good morning, Mr Tshabalala, welcome. --- Thankyou very much. (Inaudible) ... we start this morning, and before you go intothe story of the sad death of Edward Viyu Charles, could you tell us a little bit about the Charles family, how many children there were, and so on? --- The familyof Charles is comprised of six children. (Inaudible) ... them. --- The family of Charles is a cousinwho grew up at my father's place. Would you now tell us what you know of the death of EdwardViyu Charles please. --- My cousin was a student at that time. He looked verybrilliant, he had a very bright future. My cousin could see the problems thatwe were going through at our home. He could also see the problems that the blacknation had. Then he took a decision that amongst all other things he will workfor his nation, especially strive for freedom. In other words he got involvedin politics. At that time when the UDF started he was the chairperson of theUDF in Welkom. In 1983 Edward Viyu Charles was arrested for the very first time.His second arrest was in 1985, near Welkom and Odendaalsrus, on the way to Kroonstad.In 1985 it was a little bit difficult during those times. His life was a littlebit more in shambles, and he spent most of his time in prison, and he relatedhow difficult it was there. He even told us about the torture that went on inthe prison. At that time he was in Mpohadi College, and his parents wished thathe should finish is education. There were people who kept on harassing him.Those were the law people. They were using constant death threats, and theythreatened that they would wipe the whole family out. And there came a timewhere he was told that he would go because he did not want to leave the causefor freedom. He used to talk with us to make us aware as to all that the previousregime was not protecting his nation. He took an oath and he told himself that he will continue with the struggle, he won't turn back. Amongst the torturesthat he went through the most painful was when he was taken into a bath, putinside the water, and he was electrocuted. In 1985 he went to Lesotho. At thattime we heard that they were threatening they would wipe the whole family ifwe kept him in the family. At that time he stayed in Lesotho until he crossed... (incomplete) When you're ready we can continue. (Pause) --- It was verydifficult because the parents were expecting that he should finish his education,but he did explain to them and they did understand he had to leave the country.It was then that we actually resolved and told ourselves that it was the lasttime we saw him. You can take your time. We don't mind waiting for you. (Pause)--- The last time we heard him talk was when he phoned us and he told us thathe was on his way to Lusaka. That was the last time. He went to Lusaka. Throughoutwe were dreaming we were also expecting him, we were also - we also encouragedourselves. We told ourselves that whatever decision he had taken we were inline with it. We were being supportive because he always explained to us theproblems that he was going through. He went to Lusaka. We heard rumours thathe was around, but we never saw him. In 1987, on the 16th if I am not mistaken,that is the 16th of December, we heard rumours that there was a terrorist whodied in the vicinity of Brandfort and Bloemfontein in a farm. He was termeda terrorist. We never thought it could possibly he him. It took us a very longtime to know that it was him. This was being hidden away from us. I think itwas in 1990 when myself and his elder brother we made some investigations. We heard rumours that amongst the people whodied Edward Viyu Charles was amongst them. We made some investigations and wediscovered that he is the person who was killed in 1987. We were not notifiedabout his death, we only heard it from people. It looks as if there were somepeople who were with him, but one of them is in Bloemfontein according to rumour,the one who was with him at that time when he died. The other one survived andhe surrendered, but my brother was killed by the boers. They killed him in avery painful manner. Amongst all other things when he was being buried he wasburied by the police. I believe they just buried him like a dog or a puppy.They were just seeing a corpse, an unknown corpse. There were two policemenwho couldn't - who had a problem burying him. This was a very painful experience.The most cruel of them all was that when we last saw him he was fine and alivein flesh, but now when we had to see him for the last time he was only bones.We buried his bones in 1991. We were not burying him in person. That's all Ican say. So at the time he left the country he would have been 21. ---It is so. Now, you spoke about some inquiries that you made. Could youbriefly tell us what sort of inquiries you made to discover that the ... (inaudible)... you subsequently reburied was in fact Edward Charles? --- His elder brotheris a teacher at Ladybrand. He heard that there was somebody who had died. He went to Bloemfontein to come and see if there was anything he could find about hisbrother. He got information that he was the one who was killed in Brandfort.We went to Brandfort. We could not get any information as to what happened.Thereafter we discovered that according to rumours a certain person was beingburied in a certain grave by the Comrades. It could be possible that it washim. Further investigations that were made in Bloemfontein confirmed that inreality the grave was his. Thank you. Now, you spoke to us about a witness, one of thecomrades of your cousin as someone who survived that incident, and you saidthat that person was somewhere in Bloemfontein. Do you know that person's nameso we can maybe try and trace him? --- I think they talked about Mohapi. Thatis the name that I remember. The elder brother who is a teacher from Ladybrand, what's hisname please? --- It's Ezekiel Themba Charles. Thank you. You spoke of arrests during 1983 and 1985. Werethose arrests for specific charges, or specific activities that you're awareof? --- Those accusations we are not clear as to what they entailed, but atthat time they were electing a councillor in Thabong. That was the second arrest. Now, from the statement that we have it seems clear that therewas no death certificate by the family as a result of this death. Can you confirmthat? --- It's difficult that we don't agree with it, because we never saw him,we just accepted what we were being told. That's what made us agree and resolveit is so. So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying there's some doubt in your hearts that this is in fact theright person. --- We do agree according to the knowledge that we were given,or the information. Because they were bones we couldn't identify him, so there'snothing that really encourages us to agree that it was really him. (Inaudible) ... must be some doubt in your hearts. Let me justcheck with you. According to the statement, and you can confirm this for meplease, you were never called to any cases or inquests of any kind that youknow of? --- We were never called to any inquests or any courts of law. Okay. We will do our best to try and track down the officialrecords if they're still around, and to see whether we can help you clear upthis confusion for you. With that I hand back to the Chairperson. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Any other comments,questions? Can I just make absolutely sure that I understand you? You mentionedthat your cousin was exhumed. Now, where was the burial site before you movedhim for the second burial? Where was that? --- He was buried at Brandfort. (Inaudible) ... that in the local cemetery, or where was that?--- It was there at the local cemetery. We are grateful to you for coming and for telling us your story.We have made a number of notes so that we can follow this up, and Mr Lax hastold you already that as much information that we can get as possible is importantso that we can try to assist you to find out more details of what happened,who killed him, who buried him, and whether it really was your cousin. We'll do our very best tohelp in every way, and we just want to thank you and we want to thank your motherfor coming here today. Thank you very much. DR BORAINE Mrs Lowape, can you hear me through theheadphones? MRS LOWAPE Yes, I can hear you perfectly well. DR BORAINE Mrs Lowape, we welcome you very warmly tothis second day of the hearings. We are very grateful that you have taken thetrouble to come and share with us, and share with the nation, your own painand suffering. You are going to tell us about the shooting of your son, Papiki,and before you do that you have to be under oath, so I'll ask you to pleasestand. BETTY LALIWE LOWAPE (Sworn, States) DR BORAINE Thank you, Mrs Lowape, will you please takeyour seat again, and my colleague Mrs Gcabashe is now going to take over fromme. MRS GCABASHE Let me start by thanking you. Are youcoming from Welkom? Thank you for coming here to give us evidence to help us,all of us, so that all the people can know the truth of what happened in thepast. I sympathise with you as you have lost your son. We have your statementhere. I would request you to start. You give us the details about your familybackground. Can you hear me? --- I have 10 children. He was the sixth one. Are you working? --- No, I am not working at the moment. Are you working? --- My husband is sick, he is not working. Is Papiki your son? Can you tell me the date of birth and hisage during this accident? Can you give me the birth details? --- He was only16 years old when he died. He was only 16 years old. In your statement here you said Papiki was shot by the policein 1984. Is it like that? --- Yes, it is so. Can you briefly tell us what happened until - that led to hisdeath? --- He was coming from the hospital. He was under medication. He wasparalysed. He was under hospital medication. Can you tell us everything thathappened on that particular day? I want to get all the details from you. ---On that particular day, 17th of August, he was coming from the hospital. Onthe way home he met the police. The police were spreading tear gas and theywere shooting children. He was shot on the way home. Though he was walking withcrutches he was shot, because he was paralysed. I think they shot him roundabout one, because I was fetched by my children when he was already shot. Thatwas a boy and a girl. They told me that their brother had been shot by the policeand he had fallen there, they can't wake him up. I was given permission fromwork to go back. I went to where he was shot. I found him sprawled on the floor. You can take your time. --- I found him sprawled. The artificiallimb had fallen out. I asked what had happened because he was just coming fromthe hospital, and now his medication had fallen also. I asked what sort of apoliceman could do that. A white policeman came, as well as a black policeman.They told me that it's a long time, this is long overdue, that we should havecollected our children, they must stop moving around the street. I told themthat my child wasn't in the street but he was on his way back from the hospital.They had shot him in the stomach, as well as on the shoulder. They also stabbed him on the tummy. He stayed there for thewhole day. They took him round about 4 o'clock in the afternoon. At the timewhen they took him they said I will get my child at the police station mortuary.We went there the following day. When they had taken him from the ground I wentto the funeral parlour, but I turned on my way there, I went to look as to whetherthere wasn't any blood there. I got a white man there who was looking there.I asked him what he was looking for there. I asked him whether he was lookingfor the bullets with which he had shot him. Then he was startled, then he stoodup. At that time I left him and I went away. When I tried to get to where myson was they said to me I mustn't get in there. They told me that I'll get himat the police mortuary. The following day I went there. We took him and we buriedhim. Ever since then we have never heard anything about his case, but the policewere harassing us. They were also harassing my husband at work. That's whereit ended. We thank you. There are certain questions that we would liketo pose to you so that we can get some clarity. In your statement you talkedabout your two children who came to you and told you about what had happenedafter you had left. What were their names? --- It was Enette Rapi as well EphraimLowape. In your statement you referred to your son who had only oneleg. --- Yes, the other one had an artificial limb because he did not have aleg. Can you please explain to us why he found himself without aleg? --- His foot was a little bit paralysed on the ankle, so when he went tobe amputated he came back like that. Each and every thing was just controlling itself.He had no control over himself. Was he born with the foot like that? --- Yes, he was born withthe foot like that. Then he went to the hospital to get this foot fixed. Thenhe came back condemned. Everything in him was condemned. They amputated hisfoot below his knee - his leg below his knee. Which hospital was doing this? --- It was in Welkom Hospital. Which year? Which year? Do you still remember? --- I don'tremember quite well because he underwent the operation when he was still veryyoung. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MRS GCABASHE You said on that particular day the policewere pouring tear gas over people. Can you please explain what was happening?Was there a boycott, a strike, or an uprising? --- It was when the studentsat Tito started fighting. It was students? --- Yes, it was Tito students. In your statement you said the police who shot your son youcan actually identify them even if you don't know their names. --- I said Icould not identify them because they were white policemen. The one who went back, who survived, who came to look - whocame to inspect the site of death, is it possible for you to identify him? ---No, I cannot identify him because he was actually looking down. I couldn't seehim properly. After your son's death did you get any letter that told youas to how he died? --- No, I never got anything. Were there any court appearances or inquiries or an inquest?--- There was nothing, absolutely nothing. In your statement you said your son was getting R100,00 a month.What was that for? --- He wasn't getting anything. I wasn't getting anything. In your statement that's where you speak about R100,00. Youwere not getting any money? --- No, I wasn't getting any. As you are on pension how much are you getting for your pension?--- I get R410,00. R410,00. What about your other children, are they still at school orare they working? --- The elder ones are working. Only two are attending school.I am educating them. We know that we can't really help you besides tell you thatwe sympathise with you, because it is apparent that your son was quite an ordinarychild, and he was very sickly. In your statement you said he was from the hospitalto take his medication. Who was examining him or who was treating him? --- Heused to fetch his medication from the hospital. Do you have any documents or cards to indicate? --- I neverwent to the hospital to look for them. Is it possible for you to get them? --- I don't know whetherit's possible. The records should be there. Even though we don't have muchthat we can do, but we would like to know if in your mind what would you likeus to help you with? --- I really don't know. I can't say what I want the Commissionto do. What happened to his clothes? Did you get them thereafter? --- Yes, I got the clothes. What did they look like? --- They had a lot of holes, but itseems he didn't bleed. There were holes on his shoulder as well as the tummy.He bled internally. Were the other children involved in the student organisation?--- No, they weren't. Thank you very much, Mrs Lowape. We sympathise with you verymuch. We shall try to hand over to our Chairman. Thank you for having the courageto come and tell us what happened to your son. If there's any help that we canoffer we shall try by all means to find out who did this. The Commission willhelp you in that manner. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Any other questionsor comments? Dr Magwaza. DR MAGWAZA We are aware that this is a very difficulttime for you. I have one more question just to clarify. Was your son involvedin any political movement? Did he go to any gatherings for any political party?--- He wasn't involved with any political organisations. The second thing, I am concerned about you and your family.How did this affect you, how did it change your life and that of your family,the death of your son? --- It was a very painful thing because we all lovedhim. We had accepted what God had given us. Okay, thank you. MR LYSTER Mrs Lowape, do you know whether anyone elsewas killed on that day along with your son? --- No, he was the only one whowas killed on that particular day. It's only after a few months that other childrenstarted dying. In your statement it is written that there was an inquest thatwas held after your son's death. Now, do you recall that there was any courtcase? --- There's absolutely that happened. Nothing happened. What is the nearest Magistrate's Court to Thabong? --- Thereis a police station in Thabong. (Inaudible) ... big town to Thabong? Is it Welkom, Bloemfontein.--- It's Bloemfontein. Okay. Well, we will make inquiries at the Magistrate's Courtin Bloemfontein to see whether there are any documents relating to an inquest.Did the shooting take place in Thabong township? Is that where you were livingat the time that your son was killed? --- Yes, I was staying in Thabong at thattime. MRS GCABASHE Can I make a correction? DR BORAINE Yes, please, Mrs Gcabashe. MRS GCABASHE Thabong is a township of Welkom. It'sjust like Bloemfontein and Butsabelo. DR BORAINE Mrs Lowape, we have listened very carefullyto your story. In the case of someone dying through shooting there's usuallyan inquiry made by the police, even though it was the police who shot him, andwhy we were asking exactly where were you living is because we want to try andfind out if there are any court records or any details of what happened on that17th of August in 1984. It sounds as though it may be that they were firingand your son was an innocent victim walking past, like so many other people who have died in cross-fire in our country.But we don't know, so we have to try and find out. If we are able to find outwe will then come and tell you, so that at least you know exactly what happened.Because if they were responsible then they should accept that responsibilitypublicly, and also there should be some proceedings. We will try and do ourbest. But to have 16-year-old son who already not strong, with oneleg, and to have him killed so brutally, is much pain, and we feel for you verydeeply, and we are so grateful that you have come to tell us. We hope that evenin the telling of the story, in the sharing, some of the burden will leave you,and at least you will know that the Commission appointed by the President andthe nation knows what happened to your son. Thank you very much for coming. DR BORAINE (Inaudible) ... you can hear me clearly? MR PHEHLANI Yes, I can hear you very clear. DR BORAINE That's very good. I can hear you as well,so we're now ready to start. We want to welcome you very warmly on behalf ofthe Commission, and we are grateful to you for taking the trouble to come andsharing with us what sounds, from your statement, to be a very, very grim andhorrifying experience with the death of your wife, severe assault against yourson, destruction of property. This was a very, very, awful, awful experience,and we are going to listen to you very carefully. Before you start though wouldyou please stand for the taking of the oath? MR PHEHLANI I don't need an interpreter. DR BORAINE Okay. MORGAN SABATHA PHEHLANI (Sworn, States) DR BORAINE MR LYSTER Thank you, Mr Phehlani. Now, the incidentswhich you have highlighted in your statement took place in July 1991. --- Thatis correct. Excuse me. I am sorry to interrupt you. Could you pull themicrophone a little closer, because everybody wants to hear. --- Oh, I see. Thank you very much. --- And then after that I decided to jointhe main party itself, the Communist Party, so I was briefed to be the organiserof the Communist Party in the Free State here. And then it's that time I joinedwith Bram Fischer, and then the others, all the leaders of the Communist Party,Moses Gutane and the others, Sam Khan and so forth and so forth. And then Icame in the Free State then, organising the Communist Party, and after someyears again I went to Johannesburg, came back again to the Free State as anorganiser on the Communist Party in the Free State here. And then I decidedto join the Advisory Board by that time, because I thought that they are gettingthese things right. Once you'll get into these organisations - our townshipswere so bad streets, no water, no houses, all such things. Well, I was a memberof the Advisory Board for about a year, and then I again was chased out of Brandfort,you know, under the pass laws, that I was not working, just a loafer in thetownship here, and intimidating people to be against the Council and so forth, and just like that. ThenI was sent back again to Johannesburg, where I came from, because they saidI was a loafer. So there's a word in Afrikaans that, "Ons gooi op jou oor dieluin" - "You must get out of this area because you are a loafer." And then againI came back in the Free State, I started again organising trade unions and soforth and so forth. I started organising the Brandfort Workers Union. I foundthat people were just working there, you know, for nuts, and it was necessaryto organise them into a trade union there. I started to form what they callthe Brandfort Workers Union. Well, I went on just like that until comes rightagain. Just not - to be very short, in 1989 - no, let's say 1976, when theseyoung kids started to be against the Afrikaans. In Brandfort we had what theycalled the Khosas, the students formed themselves into a group, and then itwas called the Khosas. Then these Khosas were, you know, fighting each otherin the black townships. The others did not like the Khosas, and then the policehave to intervene just like that. And then they started to have what they calledthe anti-Comrades. They were fighting now, the schoolchildren, by that time.We had a group of about 15 children who were against the scholars, fightingthe scholars. And then it's where again the clash started again with my wife.She was in there. I couldn't get too much in the whole thing because I was restrictedand banned and house arrested, because I was being restricted and banned from1946, when I was in Johannesburg. And 1950, when these organisations were bannedI was also banned and house arrested and restricted not to go to the churches,and it was just like that. And then it happened that Winnie Mandela encouraged us again thatwe should join with these Advisory Boards, the so-called town councillors. Andthen we started to join up with the Town Council. My wife went in there as acouncillor. I couldn't get in there because I was on the banned list, I wasrestricted not to attend those things. And then she was there for about two,three years as a councillor, and then they, the people of Brandfort, they encouragedus that we should get in there because they know what kind of people we were.Well, we tried to get them houses, to put everything in order, so they werevery much pleased with us. And then at a later stage again they said I shouldalso join with my wife there, you know, to fight for our local rights in ourblack area there. So I got in there too. Well, we got fightings with the localauthorities in Brandfort, fightings with the Provincial Councils, to get sitesfor us there. Well, I managed to get about three locations at Brandfort therethrough my efforts and my wife. So then in 1989 those small kids, or those youngboys were fighting the scholars, the so-called Khosas. Then those anti-Comrades,they started to join with the ANC in Brandfort, and then they started to callme that I am a communist, I am a sell-out, all such things, because before theydid not like me, because the white guys were telling these youngsters and Brandfortpeople that, "You must hate this Phehlani ... Afrikaans sentence ..." So someof these youngsters, you know, they were encouraged by whites that they shouldhate me because I'm a communist. And then in 1989 they started to be ANC members,and they too now they started to hate me that I'm a Communist, and then theystarted to say that, "This man is a sell-out because he does not want to work with us." Isaid to them, these youngsters, "I can't work with children. I am only workingwith your parents, not you, you youths, because I am not a youth, I am a grownup man. I can't do youth work during this time when I am so grown up." And thenthey started to say that we should resign from the Council. Well, I said tothem, "We can resign from the Council, but as soon as we resign everything'sgoing to be at a standstill in your township here, because you can see whatwe have done for you, you people here, you youngsters." Well, that group whowere the anti- Comrades, four, five, six of them, they were now the people really,you know, after us, howling, harassing us, swearing at us, doing anything tous, making petrol bombs and all such and such. And then I have to report thematter to the ANC out in Johannesburg, and then they said they knowing all aboutthose children, or the so-called youth at Brandfort. Because I make a reportto the ANC that, "These children or these youngsters they used to be just hooligans,dagga smokers, rapists. How can you call them youths of the ANC?" And then theysent some delegation to Brandfort there. They found they couldn't do a thingabout it. In 1992 the squabble was just on - petrol bombing my place and harassingus, and fighting each other. And then they started to kill some other youthsin our township there, the very same guys who were calling themselves ANC youths.Then it happened that in 1991 again they said we should resign from the Council.In July, on the 14th of July, I was at my place there, and I left during theevening. Because my son is a taxi driver I thought of going to the station togo and help him with some passengers who were coming into our area there. Well,I went to the station to help my son. It was around about half past eight. At9 o'clock, when I was from the station, I find my place burning there. The wholecafe was in flames, and I went there shouting, looking for my wife, I couldn'tfind my wife there. I called the police, the police said, "No, we can't do abloody thing, man, your place is burning." "So where is my wife?" No, the policecouldn't do a - couldn't help me, so I have to get myself into that burningcafe, drag my wife out there, out of the cafe. The police were standing therejust looking, because they themselves they did not like me in Brandfort of theprevious cases I had with them. And then I asked them, "Is them no way of helpingme put the flames away?" They said, "Ons kan nie jou help nie, Mnr Phehlani.Jy wiet ... Afrikaans ..." so my cafe have to burn to ashes. My wife was rightinside there, she was stabbed with a knife, burnt in the cafe. That's what happenedthat night. And, Mr Phehlani, was your son - your son was also attacked,I understand, is that correct? --- My son was busy delivering the passengersfrom the station. You said in your statement that your young son, Patrick, wasalso ... (intervention) --- My young son, Patrick, they were all sitting inthe cafe with my wife there, they were three in the cafe when I left there,and he was the only person I find there. We dragged him out of the cafe there,we find that he has got about eight stab holes on him. He couldn't speak, hewas very weak that evening. And certain people were convicted for this attack. --- Therewere actually eight of them were. And who were they? Don't mention their names. Were they from- what grouping within the township were they from? --- Well, they said theywere the youths of the ANC. Which is a township of Brandfort. --- You are correct. Mr Phehlani, does the - what is the name of the group, theEagles or the Three Million Gang, mean to you? --- We did not have that ThreeMillion at Brandfort. We had the Eagles and those who were calling themselvesthe ANC Youths. The Three Millions were the guys from Kroonstad, not in Brandfort. So the Eagles were a group within the township that you wereliving? --- The Eagles was another movement which was run by the Government,because it seems to me it was sponsored by the Government by that time, notthe local people. And then we had some young youths, or youngsters, who werethe members of the so-called Eagles, but actually it was the movement of theGovernment. And what contact did you have with that movement, the Eagles?--- Well, I did not have any contact with it because it was something of theyouths. I was not interested to join with youths. So you know nothing about the Eagles in that township? ---The Eagles were there, but it's a movement which was run by the youngsters fromthe area, and then it was sponsored by the Government as I am saying. And what did they used to do, the Eagles? --- Well, they usedto have some functions, take these other guys, you know, for picnics and soforth. As far as you know were they involved in any violent incidents?--- Yes, at times they were, because the anti- Comrades they were also fightingthose eagles, and then the scholars, who they were also fighting these Eagles.Because in the long run they thought that just another body of the Government,you know, to ... (incomplete) Now, after this incident, this tragic incident in which yourwife was killed and your shop was burnt down, did you remain in that townshipor did you leave? --- Yes, I am still in the township, I am still living there. And people who were convicted of that, are they still servingprison sentences? --- It's only one of them that is serving a prison sentence,because the others were sentenced for malicious damage to property, and thenthey were sent for two years in gaol, then with some suspended sentences, andthen they are back again with me in the township. I do see them daily, and weare always having clashes with them. And your son, Patrick, has he suffered as a result of thatattack? --- Yes, he's suffering from brain troubles and so forth, you know. How old is he presently? --- He is born in 1978. So he's a teenager now. --- He's a teenager. Did you resign from the Council after this attack on your house?--- No, I did not resign. And are you still running a business in that township? Didyou rebuild your business? --- Well, I am trying to run a business there, butit's very poor because now I am financially embarrassed. Everything is burneddown, and no money. The money was also burnt out in the shop there. Mr Phehlani, thank you very much for coming to us today totell your story. It's a very sad story. I am going to ask the Chairman to takeover to see whether there are any other questions other Commissioners wouldlike to ask. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Phehlani, I wasn'tclear on your wife's political activities. Perhaps you could just give us someindication of what her political allegiances were, or whether she was involvedpolitically at all, or so on. --- Well, during that specific ... (intervention) Besides being on the Council per se, but I am sayingwhat ... (intervention) --- She was also a politician just like myself previously. And in what persuasion, if you understand my question? Whichparty was she involved with? --- You mean politically or in the Council, orwhat? No, politically. --- Politically? Yes. --- Well, she was also interested within the rest of thetownship there, the running of the township and so forth and so forth, you know. So she was just involved in local issues and not in broader... (intervention) --- Local issues and politically. She wasn't a member of any other political party or anythinglike that? --- Well, we were both members of the South African Communist Party. Thank you. DR MGOJO By the time they encouraged you were you still a member ofthe Communist Party? --- By that time the parties were all banned. I was restrictedand banned. All the political parties were banned during 1950s. How much contact did you have with Mrs Winnie Mandela thenwhen she encouraged you to join this movement, or the Council? --- We used tomeet underground with her because we could not meet just openly. Were there any other Comrades apart from the youth, the ANCYouth who were called the Comrades, in Brandfort during this time when thesethings were happening to you? --- Yes, we have the grown-ups who are actuallymembers of the ANC. I worked very much with them, the grown-ups, the mothersand fathers and so forth, not youths. When you were receiving this type of treatment from the youngpeople, as the people who had encouraged you to become a councillor what didthey do? --- By that time there were not so very much against what I was doingin the township there. It's only - the trouble started only when they startedto fight with the scholars. The last question. Commissioner Richard Lyster has asked youabout the Eagles. Among these people who were convicted, these people who areput here in your statement, are they not them, do you know maybe, who were oncethe members of this group called Eagles? --- No, they weren't members of theEagles, they were all the anti - previously they were anti-Comrades. It's onlyrecently, '89, that they joined with the ANC. Thank you. MR DLAMINI Thank you, Mr Phehlani. Just one questionor two. Are you still a member of the SACP or any other political organisation?--- I am still a member of the South African Communist Party. Can I make a follow up. In the light of the relationship orthe alliance between the SACP and the ANC has there been any effort to try andreconcile you with the Comrades who were disillusioned with your role in theCouncil at that time, now that things are normal? --- Well, with other membersof the ANC we are all in good books. It's only about three to four of theseyouths, you know, who seems to me, you know, mainly as being hooligans. We just... (inaudible) ... hooligans in there. It's very hard. They are uneducated,you know, and it's very difficult to get them right. MRS GCABASHE My other last question has reference to what you said aboutthe youth, that they were rapists and they were taking drugs. Now, I would justlike to know whether you as a councillor, or as the body that was looking afterthe affairs of the township at that time, what steps did you take to deal with... (intervention) --- I tried to report these things to the police, becausemost of our residents bring such complaints to me, and then I report the matterto the police, and then we find that the police they themselves are doing nothingabout these youths. That's the trouble we are having in the smaller towns, youknow, that you find these youngsters - they call themselves that they are youngleaders, they are leading on a section, but looking at them you find that theyare so terrible, they are hooligans, they are undisciplined. That's what ishappening with me there. DR MAGWAZA You have had a difficult time. I am concernedabout you and your son. I would like you to tell me how is your son, Patrick.You said he has a mental problem. I would like to know more about that problem,what type of mental problems he's having, and for how long has he been seenby the doctor? --- Well, he's taking some treatment with the local doctor there,because the doctor said that it will take him about four to five years thathis brains will function correctly. You know, he goes and forgets. He forgets- now and then he forgets. You must always remind him. That's the trouble weare having with him. You also said you see the doctor because you have to take injectionsand tablets to stop you thinking. Are you also feeling -having some mental problems?--- Myself? Yes. --- I don't have mental trouble but, you know, I havejust got what I can call heart attack when I am thinking of these things. You also said you were financially embarrassed. Who is workinghome now? --- At present I am not working, I am just trying some means withthat - what I get from my son as a taxi driver and so forth. Okay, thank you. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Phehlani, I justwant to pick up on something that you were asked about earlier, and that wasyou - I couldn't hear you clearly unfortunately, so if I am repeating myselfplease excuse that - or repeating things that you've already said. You saidthat these accused people that were charged with the burning of your house andthe murder of your wife, and then some of whom were convicted, were membersof - and I think you said an anti-Comrade organisation. Is that correct? ---Previously. They were previously, and then '89 they started to join with theANC Youths, then they called themselves the ANC Youths. Okay. Now, clearly you would previously have been seen as possiblyan ally of theirs in the sense that the Comrades prior to this incident, andprior to these people joining the Comrades, were against you, and these peoplewere against them, so in a sense ... (intervention) --- They were against me... (incomplete) ... they were your allies. --- That's correct. It seems tome they were - the so-called anti-Comrades, it seems to me they were used bythe police, you know, to harass the students that they should forget about theirAfrikaans and so forth. Now, what I find difficult to understand, and maybe you canhelp me here, is how people who were previously your allies then turned againstyou, and maybe you can help us understand how that happened. --- After the '76strikes and so forth, and then this movement of theirs, after they have killedone of the youngsters in our area there, then they dissolved themselves, thoseanti-Comrades, and then they started to make friends, saying that they weremaking peace with the students now. So those students they said, "No, you canjoin with us," and then they started joining the ANCs and so on and so on. What I am interested in is why should they attack you personally?--- During that time, '76 and '89, they did not attack, but they started toattack me through 1990 up until 1991. Yes, I am just interested because after 1990 President Mandelawas released, things started changing, the tensions started easing somewhat,and then this incident happened in 1991. And so I am just curious as to howthe alliances between you as an SACP person, here are the ANC Youth and otherANC Comrades in your township, and suddenly there's this quite serious attackon you. --- I am getting on all right with the grown-ups, but I am not interestedto join with guys which I know that they have been used by the police to huntme or, you know, to do things against me, and they were actually being paidby the police, you know, to do such things to me. So you think this was a plot by the police to use these peopleagainst you? --- That was what was happening before. Thank you. MR LYSTER Just one final question, Mr Phehlani, andit's a difficult thing to ask you, but I think I must just put it to you. Ourinvestigators have made inquiries in this area, and there have been allegationsmade that you were involved with the Eagles Gang ... (intervention) --- No. ... and the Security Branch in Brandfort. How do you respondto that? --- No, it's very wrong, because the very Security guys they were thepeople hunting me. Sorry? --- They were the people arresting me. How can I bein favour of them who were arresting me? My house has been broken so many timesthere by the Security Police. They are searching my house every now and thenfor guns, they said I've got guns from Mozambique, guns from Durban, just likethat. My house still remains there with damaged doors by the Security Police.Making cases against the Security Police, there's nothing happening there. Okay, thank you very much, Mr Phehlani. Is there any organisation where you are of the ANC now? Isthere any ANC organisation in the place where you are now? --- Yes, we are havingANC there at Brandfort now. Does it have officials? --- Yes, they do have officials there. Have they dealt with your case, especially now that everythingis transparent, is open? --- They are so afraid of these youths. They are afraid. You say the ANC is afraid of the youth? --- They are afraidof these youths. Okay. --- Even in the police they themselves are afraid ofthese guys, these youngsters. Mr Phehlani ... (intervention) --- There are cases which Ireported to the police, but there's nothing happening there. Can you remember what the sentence was? --- I've got the presscuttings here. Thank you. So they were part of the group that used to be theanti-Comrades and now had become Comrades. --- They had become Comrades. Okay. Thank you very much. In all the questions we mustn'toverlook the tragedy of violence which has gripped this country for so long,and has still gripped this country in many part of South Africa. There can beno excuse for murder, and for arson, and for killing, and you carry a very heavyload. Whatever your political allegiances were, to have a wife who was murdered,to have a son who is now not well as a result of severe stabbings, to have yourentire property destroyed, is very serious, and we don't want you to think fora moment that we don't sympathise deeply with your loss. And we have heard you,we have heard also the requests that you have made, and we will certainly bepassing that on. DR BORAINE You are Pumla Marina Mashoang? MS MASHOANG Yes, Sir. DR BORAINE And you live at Opkomps in Bloemfontein? MS MASHOANG Yes, Sir. DR BORAINE A very warm welcome to you. You have beenwaiting quite a while already, but there are many others who are even waitingfor the rest of the day. We want you to know that you are in a friendly environment.You are here to be heard, whatever your story is, and we look forward to that.But please tell me, you have brought somebody with you. Can you tell me whothat is? MS MASHOANG It's my ex-husband. DR BORAINE Your ex-husband? Well, I think we shouldsay to him that we are very grateful to you, Sir, for coming and for supportingyour former wife in this tragedy. I assume that you were the parents of theson? MS MASHOANG Yes, Sir. DR BORAINE It was your son as well. Thank you. You'regoing to tell us about son and what happened to him, but, Mrs Mashoang, I mustask you please to stand to take the oath. PUMLA MARINA MASHOANG (Sworn, States) DR BORAINE DR MGOJO (Inaudible) ... we are sorry that this hashappened to you and your family, as the Chairperson has already said. I reallywant you to give us your background, family background, even before you cometo the narrative itself about this incident about the death of your son. Can you capture for us your historical family background?--- Well, Mpho was my first-born son. I have two other kids who are both mentallyretarded. So he was doing his third year at Vista University here in Bloemfontein. When was he born? --- He was born on the 22nd of March 1964. So he was your first-born? --- Yes. Okay. And when this happened how old was he? --- He was 24. Pardon? --- He was 24, going for 25. 24. Just tell us about his life, the political associationsor such things. Just tell us the story. --- Okay. Before he came to Vista hehad been at Mabopane Technikon, and there was quite a lot of violence then,but I didn't know that he was involved in any political organisation until hecame to Vista. Then I noticed that he was somehow inclined politically. I satdown with him and asked him if he is involved in politics, and he said to me,"No, it's not a political organisation, it's just a students' organisation." When he said that it was not a political organisation, it wasa student organisation ... (intervention) --- I was asking him. In fact I wassaying to him, "I can see that you are involved in politics, and I would ratheryou complete your studies before involving yourself too much in politics." Sohe said to me, "It is not a political organisation, it is just a students' organisation."And I believe he was holding a prominent position because ... (intervention) Did he tell you what this student organisation was called? --- Yes. He said it was SANSCO. And did he tell you what its function was? --- No. Okay. --- He said it was just a students' organisation, andI believe he was holding a prominent position because he had a van that he hadbeen given, so I think he was organising for the Free State. In fact he saidhe has been given this van, they are using it to organise for this organisationin the whole of the Free State. Yes. --- So on the - he left on the 6th of February 1989, sayingto me he is getting to Johannesburg, because this organisation doesn't haveenough funds in the Free State and they have promised to help them with theireducation. So he said in order to meet us halfway he is going to Johannesburgto get funds from the organisation in Johannesburg. And he had got a telegramthat was signed Joe - signed by Joe, that he was coming. So when this Joe camethey came in the morning. There were two of them in an Opel Kadett car. Whenthis Joe came there were two of them, and I can't remember what he said thisother one's name was. But normally he used to take me to work, so this otherone, the one who died with him, accompanied him and they took me to work. Butthis other one remained home and said he was tired, so Mpho prepared his bedroomfor him for him to sleep there whilst they were taking me to work. At 4 o'clockwhen I knocked off Mpho, together with this one ... (incomplete - end of SideA, Tape 6) ... all three of them were there. They had supper and they left.During the night - we hadn't locked the back door for them to come in, so thatthey don't disturb us. During the night at about 9.00 pm I heard thatthere was somebody in the house, so I got up, switched on the light. This otherone who had said he was tired when they came in the morning was sitting in thelounge on the couch in darkness. Then I switched on the light and asked him,"Why are you sitting in darkness?" He said, "No, I don't want to disturb you."But what I noticed was that he was hiding his face, he didn't want me to beable to see him. Then I asked him where the other two were. He said they werecoming. All right, I left him and I got back to bed. At about 12 midnight Icould hear that Mpho and the other were in too. Then I asked Mpho, "Are youhere?" He said, "No, Mum, I didn't want to disturb you. We are leaving now."That was the last I saw of him. In fact I heard from him. The following daywhen I came back from work I asked if Mpho hadn't phoned, and they said he hadn'tphoned. Then I suspected that there was something, because he never used toleave home and not phone for such a long time. Then I started asking his friends,"Where do you think Mpho is?" None of them knew, and then I said to them, "Okay,I am now going to the police for them to help me look for Mpho." And what theysaid was, "Please, Mama, don't go to the police, because the minute you go tothe police Mpho will be harassed. Every time there's something he'll be takento gaol." And from what people used to say, people who had been in gaol, thenI felt I would rather not go to the police, because I didn't want him to gothrough what the people said they go through when they are in gaol. We startedtrying to look for Mpho until towards the end of February. Unfortunately I can'tremember the date well. In The Sunday Times there was an article that three schoolchildren,three students, were killed. The names were there, but fortunately Mpho's namewas wrongly written, so I didn't recognise it. Then that Friday we got a telephonecall from Nelspruit SACC offices to say we should please come to the SACC officesat Nelspruit. So that Friday night we drove over to Nelspruit. When we got toNelspruit we got there Saturday at about 11.00 am, so when we got there thosegentlemen who helped us said they think they have a clue as to where Mpho is,but now we would have to go over to Swaziland, and because it was a weekendwe couldn't go, it had to be the Monday. We had driven over to Nelspruit beingfour. It was my husband, myself, and a friend of mine, a Mrs Ramagaga, and whenwe got to Virginia we picked up another gentleman who's my friend's husband.So we all drove over to Nelspruit. So on noticing that we had to stay over forthe weekend my husband and this gentleman from Virginia came back, and I remainedwith Mrs Ramagaga. The Monday morning we left for Swaziland. When we got tothe border I couldn't cross over, I didn't have a passport, so they said wecould get emergency passports at the offices, which were about two kilometresaway. We drove back to those offices. When we got there they said they didn'thave forms for emergency passports. Then I remained at Nelspruit Hospital. Ihad a colleague there I knew. Mrs Ramagaga and these two gentlemen from theSACC offices of Nelspruit crossed over to Swaziland. I stayed in the hospitalthat whole Monday, until in the evening when they hadn't come back they prepareda bed for me and I slept in the nurses' home. Tuesday morning at about 9 o'clockMrs Ramagaga came in. They said they couldn't come to me the previous day becausethey came back very late from Swaziland. So I asked her if she had found Mpho,and she said ... (incomplete) Okay, take time, Mama. --- (Pause) She said they found himat the bush, and the body was decomposed and she could only identify him byhis haircut. So then we had to come back to Bloemfontein to prepare for thefuneral. Then I phoned these people from the SACC at Nelspruit to find out ifthere couldn't be an inquest, and they said from the experience they have withthe Swaziland Police there won't be any inquest, because they normally say theyhave a backlog with their inquests, so that - that was all. Thank you, Mama. It is a really painful experience indeed.Did you have any chance maybe of knowing the contents of this telegram fromJoe? --- No, it just said, "We are coming on the 6th." Up until now you don't know who this Joe is? --- No, I don't. You don't know him. When they left, Mpho and his other colleagues- can you name these other people who were his friends? --- The only one I rememberis the one who died with him. It was Mohale. This other one I can't remember. Did you know of any person called Portia Shabangu? --- Portiais the one that they picked up at Nelspruit, Mpho and Mohale and this Portia.They picked up at Nelspruit Training College from Johannesburg. I don't knowwhat made them go to Swaziland from Johannesburg. Do you know where Portia Shabangu is now? --- She died together with Mpho and Mohale. So when they left they left in a car, is that true? --- Theyleft in a car, and the people who went to identify them, who went over to Swaziland,said the car was in a forest in Swaziland with the three bodies. But the bodieshad already been taken to the mortuary, so these gentlemen from the SACC officesasked the policemen, "All these three children are not from Swaziland. If yousay they were running away because they had a fight with another group in ahotel, how do you think they could run to such a place when they don't knowSwaziland?" You say that there was a report from The Sunday Times thatthree students have died? --- Yes, Sir. I still have the cuttings. And they are not named? --- They were named, but Mpho's namewas wrongly written. Thank you. Did the report say what has caused the death ofthese students? --- No, the report - yes, the report said they were found deadin a forest in Swaziland, but the death certificate that we got was that thebody was riddled with bullets. Thank you. Did you say what part of Swaziland? Swaziland isso big. What part were the bodies found in Swaziland? --- They just said ina forest. I don't know whether it's in - I can't remember whether it was Mbabaneor - I don't know. The name Mbunya, does it say anything to you? --- Mbunya? Mbunya Forest, does it say anything to you? --- I can't rememberthe name of the forest, Sir. /DR BORAINE DR BORAINE Thank you, Dr Mgojo. Are there any questionsat all? Yes. MRS GCABASHE I do notice that you are in real pain,and what has touched me a lot in your statement is when you said, "My wholelife changed since his death." Can you tell us exactly how did your life changeafter the death of your son? --- I took time before I went to church, becausehe was a church choir member. So the church choir sits in front. For about threemonths I couldn't go to church because I didn't want to see that empty spacewhere he used to sit. So that was the main change that happened to you? --- Thatwas the main change. Okay. The other thing which I wanted to clarify was that youwere not aware that he was an ANC member until ... (intervention) --- UntilI saw it in the newspaper. ... you saw it in the newspaper. --- Otherwise I knew thathe was a SANSCO member. Have you made any attempt to speak to the ANC organisationor members? --- About? In case they would know about whatever happened to him, becausehaving been an ANC member? --- No, I haven't made any attempt. Okay. Ja, I think that's all I would have liked to clarifyfrom you. Thank you. MR DLAMINI Do you perhaps have their contacts in case we want to findout from them whether they have any information that could assist in the investigation?--- Unfortunately no. Thank you, Mr Chairman. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. It's difficult to knowwhat to say to you. To lose your only son is very heavy. --- Sorry, Sir, hewas not my only son, he was my first-born. He was your first son? Your first son. I am so sorry I madethat mistake. It's still a very, very heavy burden to lose your first-born,or any member of a family, and not to know what happened and how he came todie is an added burden. We have found many times that sometimes when peopleknow what happened it helps. It doesn't heal entirely, but it helps to carrythe burden, and we will see what we can try and find out from the various reportsthat have been made. And we will have to inquire from the Swaziland Police tosee if there was a record in their files as to any information which they mighthave. You mentioned that you feel - in your statement that is, nottoday, but in your statement - that somewhere there should be a monument toremember, particularly perhaps, the young people who died during the struggle.--- Yes. This is something which we have been thinking about very deeply, and we will certainly try and consider and thenmake a recommendation to the President that somewhere, somehow, and some place,there should be a visible sign of the nation's gratitude and the nation's memoryof people who died during the whole time of the great struggle and conflictin our country. We thank you again very warmly for coming. You've been verybrave and we trust that the experience of coming here today will in some wayassist you. Thank you very much. Thank you. MR LYSTER BHAKI GEORGE MORAKE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Mr Morake, you are here to tell us your story,which relates to the attack and burning of your house in August 1987 in Botshabelotownship. Thank you for coming to Bloemfontein today to tell us that story.It's a sad story, and it speaks of political intolerance, which was the orderof the day, which was very common in this country at that time, and of courseis still very common in many parts of our country notwithstanding the politicalchanges that we have seen. I am going to ask one of my colleagues, Mr Mdu Dlamini,to assist you in taking you through your statement today. MR DLAMINI Thank you. Good morning, Mr Morake. ---Good morning, Sir. Thank you, Mr Morake. Can I ask a few clarifying questions?Can you tell us more about your family and the children, and also in relationto this incident? Are they okay? Did they suffer any injury or whatever ill-treatment?--- They were treated very badly. Even the schools refused to admit them becausethey were children of a Dikwankwetla members. The teachers, as well as the schoolchildren- they were being chased away and they just didn't enjoy their school lives.Thereafter it happened that my other child was affected mentally, ended up smokingdagga. You mentioned that your first wife became mentally disturbed.Was it as a result of the bombing or the burning of your house? --- Yes, I couldsay that, because immediately thereafter she changed so drastically. She mighthave suffered some anxiety, because she didn't really act like a normal person. What is she doing now? --- She doesn't work at the moment. And yourself, you mentioned that your business initiativeswere destroyed. How are you earning a living? What is your occupation? As wellas the children. What is everybody else in the family doing? --- At the momentI have started opening up a tuck shop. I am trying to earn a living by sellingin the tuck shop. I've opened it in my yard. From people who attacked your house you mentioned Aron Mohutu, but I am not sure whether you mentioned him assomebody who came to recruit you, or whether he was part of the people who actuallyattacked your premises. Can you tell us more about the people you identifiedfrom the group who attacked you on those particular occasions? --- He used tocome to me and ask me as a member of the ANC Youth League. He used to ask meto come and join them and leave the Dikwankwetla party. Thereafter the peoplewho attacked my house, according to my wife's version, I don't know them, Ihave never seen them. But during the day I used to meet quite a group of people,and they used to go around my yard wanting to kill me. I don't see some of themany more, but there is a Tsyetsi amongst them. I know some of them right now,but I don't know their names. They are still there. (Inaudible) ... to give us some identifying particulars ifwe were to make a follow up? --- Yes, I can point some of them even though Idon't know their names. Some of them, when we were making the rallies, theyused to come and wreak havoc in the rallies, and insult us in many occasions.I know them by seeing them. You mentioned that the matter was reported to the police, butthere was no - no progress was seen. Can you tell us more of the action thatwas taken by the police and the subsequent progress? --- As I had already saidthe police came. I thought they would take further steps. They came the secondtime, but there was absolutely nothing that they did until now. I have alsomentioned that during our meetings I took the reports to the police, but therewas nothing that was done. Which police station did you report to? --- I went to the Botshabelo Police Station. Thank you, Mr Chairman, can I hand over back to you. MR LYSTER Thank you. Thank you, Mr Morake, I just wantto ask my fellow Commissioners and Committee Members whether they have any questionswhich they want to put to you. For our records, by the way the police at the Botshabelo PoliceStation, what type of police? You know our land was so fragmented that thereare so many different types of police. What type of police were these? --- Itwas SAP Police. You have said that you were a Member of Parliament. Was thereany attempt to protect you from these acid experiences which had confrontedyou from your Government? --- Our Chairperson, Dr T K Mopede, spoke to the SAPto protect our homes, so they protected our homes as from that time. So you did get bodyguards later. --- Yes, we did. Mr Morake, in your statement you said when you were in ThabaNchu you were being harassed because you were Sotho-speaking people. I wantto know, when you say your children were being harassed at school, what schoolwas that. Was it Thaba Nchu School, or what? --- I had hired or leased Mr Shuping'sshop. We had a contract. Then when I was 10 months in the shop he told me tovacate his shop. I asked him what were the reasons. Then he said he wanted toopen up a supermarket with another person called Mr Sihumed, who was in theBophutatswana Parliament. Then I said we had signed a contract. He told me that as soon as the month ends I should vacate theproperty because he needed the shop. An attorney called Mr Tekula tried to takethe case, but I told him not to do it. Were your children in Thaba Nchu at that time? Did they attendschool in Thaba Nchu? --- Before we went to Botshabelo they were in Thaba Nchu.That was in 1978/79. Thank you. DR MGOJO Just one question I forgot. In your statementyou have yourself, George Morake, and Hilda Mogapi, who I think is your secondwife, isn't it? And you have just told us that your first wife has sufferedmental disturbance. Didn't you consider her as a victim, your first wife? ---Yes, I think she is, because at that time when our house was petrol bombed thebomb fell on the bed on which she was sleeping. Then I noticed thereafter thatshe was quite depressed. I took her as a victim, or I am taking her as a victimtoo. (Inaudible) ... ask us to add her here too as a victim, becausein the statements here she does not appear as a victim. --- I would be verygrateful if you would include her as a victim. Is she getting any treatment? --- She isn't getting any treatment. What is her name by the way? --- Her name is Constance GileBogile. Mr Morake, thank you very much for coming to the Commission today and telling your story, which we have heardis a sad story, and as I've said, it talks very loudly about political intolerance.The telling of the story can, I hope - the telling of the story by yourselfin public, I hope it can be of some assistance to you in lifting the burdenwhich you have carried, and I hope also that it can be of assistance to thosewho are listening in this hall, to those who are listening on radio and on television. Our country has been nearly destroyed by political divisions,political intolerance, and you have been a direct victim of that political intolerance.And I hope that the telling of this story will send out a message to those listeningof the tragedy and the misery that is the consequence of political intolerance.And it is ironic that those people who attacked you, destroyed your property,were in a general way themselves protesting against the political intolerancethat was represented by the apartheid Government, and it's ironic that theytoo acted in a violent and undemocratic way. You will have heard Dr Borain this morning talking about whatthe Commission could do for a person like yourself, and you will have heardhim say that the Commission has no power to offer you immediate assistance.Our job is to make recommendations to the President, who will in turn discussthis matters with his Cabinet, and the Cabinet will then request Parliamentto put into effect their policies and their recommendations. So we cannot hereand now offer you any immediate assistance, but we hope, as I have said, thatthe telling of this story has assisted you in some way, and I feel sure that it has been of assistance to those listening here and aroundthe country. Thank you very much, and we wish you well. --- Thank you very much. MR LYSTER Can you hear me, Mrs Daseko? MRS DASEKO Yes, I can hear you. MR LYSTER Thank you. Thank you for being with us today.You have come to tell us a story about the death of your son, and you, likemany, many other people who have appeared before this Commission, not only herein Bloemfontein, but in many other parts of the country, have suffered the lossof a family member, very often a son. And we - through the experiences of others,and through the public suffering that they have undergone, we know somethingof the suffering that you too are undergoing. And I am going to ask you to tellus about the death of your son, but before that I'll ask you to stand please,so that you can take the oath. Could you stand up please. MRS G S DASEKO (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you, Mrs Daseko. I am going to askone of my colleagues, Dr Magwaza, to assist you in the giving of your evidence.Dr Magwaza. DR MAGWAZA Mama Daseko, before I start I would liketo say to you that the saddest thing this morning is to have to listen to thenumber of young people who lost their lives simply because they were fightingfor their rights, and I want to say that the loss of sons is not for you asa mother, but is for all the women in South Africa, because we all are mothersand have sons. And to be humble enough to say that we can never fully understandthe experience and the pain you have gone through, but we are here to supportyou. Mama, can you begin by telling me more about your family? I would liketo get a good sense of who your son was. --- My son was Sam Daseko. Your son was Sam Daseko. I would like to know how old was Sam,what he was doing at the time of his death, does he have brothers and sisters,does he have a father? --- Sam was a student. He was my son. He was the onlyone. I have got two children. The other one is older. I was staying with Sam.At that time he was in standard nine. Every Saturday when he was at home heused to get piece jobs, then he would further his own education with the remunerationthat he got. It was on Saturday and I was in Bloemfontein when Sam got injured,and I heard from Brother Montsiwa. Sam was at Mr Groen's farm, at his grandmother'shouse, and grandmother's son came to me. It was on a Sunday. It was late inthe afternoon when I came back from Bloemfontein, and he came to me and he said,"Can we please go to the police station. We have to go and look for Sam, becausethe police came, they took him, and they beat him up. He was already injuredand we tried to stop them. The two policemen left and they came back. When theycame back the kicked the door at Granny's house and they picked Sam up. Oneof them - they held him with both his hands and his feet, and they threw himinto the van and they drove off." When we arrived at the police station on Sundaywe didn't find them, but we did ask them. We did ask a few policemen who werethere. We asked them, "Do you know anybody who is called Sam?" They looked intotheir files and they didn't find anybody by the name of Sam, and they said tous, "No, we don't have Sam on our files." It was Sunday afternoon and we hadto come back home. On Monday we went back to the police station. We wanted tomeet Mr Morakile and Shele. We only got hold of Morakile, and Brother Montsiwaasked him, he said, "Morakile, where did you take Sam, because you pickedhim up yesterday?" Morakile's response was, "We took Sam and we dropped himoff at number one. Brother Montsiwa asked him further. He said, "How could youdrop him off at number one after having assaulted him in that way? You shouldhave taken him home." Morakile said to him, "I promise you we dropped him offzone one." After a while that we've been there speaking to Morakile anothergentleman came in. He was working at the municipality, because he used to drivethese big lorries, these lorries with big tanks to sprinkle the water in ourroads so that there is no dust. And he said, "We've seen a body in the bush,"and he said, "I think it's a boy." I said to them, "I am sure that is the bodyof my son." The police said to me, "No, don't mind, you will go to the hospitalso that you can identify whether is it your son or not." Truly we went withmy brother, Mr Montsiwa, we went to Maroka Hospital, and when we arrived theremy son was there at the mortuary. I think they have been kicking him aroundlike a ball. He was full of soil. You couldn't look at him. (Pause) Okay, Mama. Take your time. (Pause) --- We found him at thehospital. Because I had nothing with me I told my sister's children in Bloemfontein,and they came to take him from the hospital to the - from the mortuary hospital,and they took him to Bloemfontein and they helped me with the burial arrangements.I think we went to court two times, if not three times. When we were supposedto go for the fourth time we were told that the case is no longer there, thecharges have been dropped. And Morakile is still working, he is still a policeman. I stayed with him in the house. I don't have a husband. Hewas the father in the house. I don't know what will these people think today.They are still working and I am starving. Mama Daseko, that's a very painful experience. I think youhave been through a very, very difficult time. We would like to know more aboutwhat happened to Sam. I will ask you just a few questions. Could you tell uson what date was Sam arrested by the police? --- It was on a Saturday. He wasfrom a temporary job that he was doing. I was in Bloemfontein, and I left himat home. I think he was from home, heading to his grandmother's house, and onhis way the police picked him up. You know, the police wanted to know why didhe have blood on his shirt. (Inaudible) ... grandmother's place? --- The police pickedhim up and they took him to the grandmother's house, and the grandmother toldthem, "No, this boy was on his way to my home." The police left him there. AndGranny gave him clean clothes, and after a few minutes after he had gone tobed the police came back and they kicked the door. They did not knock at thedoor, they just kicked the door, and they picked him up. The other one pickedhim up with his hand and a leg, and the other one the same, and they threw himinto the van and they drove off. Had they harassed him before, or were they known to you? ---When I saw them the first time I knew them. (Inaudible) ... they done anything to him before? --- Nothing.It was their first time to see him on his way to his granny, and they just pickedhim up. One other thing, Mama. What - he had some bloodstains on theshirt. Where did those bloodstains come from? --- These were the origins, thebloodstains. He was bleeding through his nose. (Inaudible) ... by the police? --- The police saw him withthe blood on his chest. He was bleeding - just bleeding from the nose, the originalbleeding from the nose, and they accused him of the blood on his shirt and theyassaulted him for that. (Inaudible) ... political organisation at that time? --- Samused to tell me that he was going to meetings, but I couldn't understand himwhat meetings was he - which meetings was he going to. I think it was fond ofthe ANC. I've heard you more than once refer to this policeman, Morakile,who assaulted and killed your son, and that he is still working. Where is Morakilenow? Where is he working? --- He is working at the police station in Thaba Nchu.He is a policeman. The last question I would like to ask from you is, now thatyour son, Sam, is dead, and you were saying that Sam was your son who was also supporting you, who is also -who is supporting you now? Are you working, are you getting a pension? How doyou make a livelihood? --- I am not working. I don't get pension. I am a vendor.I sell oranges and peanuts. Tell me lastly, what has changed in you since the death ofyour son? Are you still the same person? What has changed in you? --- Thereis a lot of difference, because at times I would feel my heart shaking, andsometimes - so many things have changed in my life. I get terrible headachesat times. (Inaudible) ... doctor? --- Yes. I normally go to the doctorafter getting some income from selling the peanuts and oranges. Your grandmother is the only witness now, according to whatyou have here, because your brother has died, who was also a witness. Is thereanybody else you can think of who could be a witness to this case? Were thesethe only two people who saw what happened? --- Yes, I think those were the onlyto people, because it was in the evening and he was at their place. Thank you very much. I would like it over to our Chairpersonhere. MR LYSTER Thank you, Mrs Daseko. Can you just confirmfor me when this happened? You said it happened on a Saturday, but you didn'ttell us the year in which it happened. It's important for the purposes of ourrecords that we know which year it was. Can you remember? It doesn't appearin your statement either. Can you remember what year you buried your son? ---It was in 1990. It was in July, on the 8th of July, if I still remember well. And that happened in Zone One, Thaba Nchu, is that correct?--- Yes, in Thaba Nchu. Mrs Daseko, thank you very much for sharing your story withus today. We've heard stories similar to yours from so many - particularly somany mothers about the deaths of their children, and previously when we heardabout these things, particularly for those of us who did not experience sufferingover the past years, we would read about it in the newspaper, or we would hearit on a radio that this person or that person had died, and it would come acrossto us as a number, as a statistic. And what is important about your story isthat we realise that for every number, for every statistic, for every personwho died, that there was a mother and a father, and perhaps a family who mournedthose people, that for every person - the person who died was precious to somebodyelse who was left behind. And if we think of how many people like your son havedied over the last 10, or 20, or 30 years, we get some idea of the amount orthe extent of emotional loss and suffering that his weighing down on this countrylike a grey cloud. And so we hope that just by telling your story, not only tous here, but to those people in the hall, and to the many, many people, thethousands of people who are listening to it on the radio now, we hope that itmakes your burden a little bit lighter, and that it will make those who arelistening to your story even more determined that this sort of thing shouldnot happen again in our country. The Commission will do its best to try and find out further details about how your son died, and why he died, butthat cannot be done immediately, these things take time, but details will begiven to you when we are in possession of those details. So thank you again very much for coming, and we wish you welland we wish you strength. Thank you. MR LYSTER Can you hear me, Mr Moyhilwa? MR MOYHILWA Yes. MR LYSTER Can you tell me how to pronounce your namecorrectly? Is it Moyhilwa? MR MOYHILWA It's Moyhilwa. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming to tell us your storytoday. You, like the person before you, will be telling us a story about theloss of a family member in December 1989. Before you tell us your story I'dask you to please stand and take the oath. MODISI ELIAS MOYHILWA (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you very much. I am going to ask myfellow Commissioner, Dr Mgojo, to assist you in the giving of your evidence.Dr Mgojo. DR MGOJO Thank you, Sir. Mr Moyhilwa, I am sure itmust be very sad for you to have lost your brother. You know, when you growas brothers you support each other, you fellowship together, you have jokesand everything in a family, and the life in the family becomes exciting. Andyou were deprived of the privilege. Can you please tell us about your family,your mother, brothers, sisters, etcetera? --- The first thing I would like tosay is as from 1982 we went to Botshabelo. (Inaudible) ... just tell us about your family. How many areyou in your family? Do you have a mother, do you have a father, etcetera? Justthe family, before telling us about the story of what happened. --- Yes, I havea mother and a father, and four sisters and three brothers. (Inaudible) ... they live. --- They all live in Botshabelo. Thank you. Just now tell us about your brother and what happenedto him. --- My brother started getting involved in politics in 1987 in Botshabelo.He joined the South African Youth Congress under the ANC. In 1989 on the 25thof December he went to the U Section, visiting for Christmas or for the festiveseason. On that very same night of the 25th of December - there was a politicalorganisation called Dikwankwetla. They also call themselves Mopede's Reserves.On that very same night they attacked my aunt's home and my brother was there.When they were asked as to what was the problem they said they were lookingfor the Comrades. My aunt never wanted to open the door, she refused. Thereafterthey kicked the door. They bore holes into the door. It was no longer a door.Then they went away and they promised that they were going to come back on the26th of December. My aunt, as well as my elder brother, as well as my aunt'schildren, they just thought they were threatening, but the following day at8 o'clock in the morning there came a group of people. They were more than 100.When my aunt went outside to ask them as to what they were looking for, theywere still looking for the Comrades. They said she must take the Comrades outof the house because they were looking for them. My aunt flatly refused. Theyheld her, they took her to another man's place where they made arms or weapons.I asked what the name was, they told me it was Mr Mokwena. When they took herto Mr Mokwena's place at U Section they harassed and assaulted her and saidthey wanted the Comrades. They left her, they went to try and attack my elderbrother, as well as my aunt's children. They wanted my brother mainly because they said they were burninghouses. But when I look at the U Section there wasn't even a single house thatwas burnt down. When they got there they stabbed my elder brother, they shothim with arrows. My brother tried to run away, he ran to my other aunt, butthey chased him, they followed him with spears. My aunt's children also ranaway. When they got to my other aunt at the W Section my aunt closed the doorand they remained outside. She said that she didn't want her house to be destroyed.There was a shack outside at my aunt's place. My brother went into this shack.My aunt's children were able to get into the house. When this mob came, thisvery same Dikwankwetla mob, they tore the shack apart because they were lookingfor my brother. When my brother came out they chopped his head with a panga.My brother tried to run away, but he fell on the street. Each and every oneof them wanted to take his part or to make his share. Then they started stabbinghim each one of them. When we went to report to the police the police askedus whether my brother was dead already. They came after three hours. When oneof my aunt's children went to report to our other elder brother at home - he'salso staying at the W Section - my elder brother went to my home. It was roundabout 10. When he went to my parents he told my parents, but they just couldn'tbelieve it. He didn't die at that very same moment. He was taken after threehours. He was taken to the Universitas Hospital in Bloemfontein. That's wherehe died at 12 o'clock in the evening. Our father went to Universitas to lookfor him, as well as my other sister. They were told that only my father couldsee my brother because his condition was not satisfactory, he was critical.That was the end of my brother. (Inaudible) ... indeed, and very shocking. Now, because I wantto help your record to be straight, so that when investigations are made we'llask certain questions. Mosala Petros Moyhilwa is your eldest brother. --- No,he is the one - he actually comes after me. (Inaudible) ... your younger brother. And you have named herein your narration about eldest brothers. What is their name? --- The eldestone is Jonas Moyhilwa, the second one is Chidi Moyhilwa. (Inaudible) ... in now? --- They are working at a mine in Welkom. Did they belong to any organisation when this was happeningto your younger brother? --- No, they were not members of any political organisation. And you, did you belong to any organisation? --- I was a memberof SAICCOR under ANC. And did your father belong to any organisation, or your mother?--- He was just an ordinary person. He didn't belong to any political organisation. Thank you. You mentioned two aunts, one living in U Sectionand one living in W Section. Can you tell us their names? --- The one who staysat the U Section is Matseko Agnes Raputsi. The one who stays in W Section isMaria Raputsi. Thank you. You said here there were two invasions. There wasthe first one, which happened at U Section. Was there any report then duringthe first one which was made to the police? --- In the first attack the policewere told. My aunt's child went to report, but they said he was just drunk and they won't respond to that. (Inaudible) ... for the sake of the record, at Botshabelo whattype of police were they, SAP or some other type of police? --- They were theSouth African Police. South African Police. So they used, these people who killedyour brother, knobkerries and also pangas, according to your later statement.Is that true? --- Yes, that's true. Do you know these people who belong to this apartheid agents(?)or Mopede's Reserve? Do you know them? --- Yes, I can identify them, but I onlyknow two of them by names. Who are those? --- It's Mokwena and Mokala. (Inaudible) --- No, I don't have an idea. (Inaudible) ... you family. Were the other members of yourfamily intimidated by the police? --- The police used to come regularly andthey used to threaten us just before my brother was buried. They told us thathe shouldn't be buried in the ordinary manner that Comrades are buried, he should be buried just like an ordinary man inthe street. (Inaudible) ... was he buried? --- It was just an ordinaryburial, a politician's burial as we are used to. (Inaudible) --- On that day of the funeral, that was on the6th of January, the police came when we were from the cemetery. They came anddispersed people using the tear gas. Other people didn't even go to our home,they just went to their respective homes. (Inaudible) --- Yes. What is the state of your mother and father at the presentmoment? --- My mother and father, after the death of my elder brother, bothof them suffered from high blood. They are still very sick, but my father isworking, as sick as he is. (Inaudible) ... any treatment, medical treatment? --- No, becausethere's no money. They can't afford to get medical attention. I just have one more question. You said that your brother wastaken to hospital after three hours. Why did it take so long for him to be takento hospital? Was it because of the police interference? --- At that time thepolice were working with the apartheid organisations, as well as the Kwankwetla,as well as the other parties. That is why it happened like it did. (Inaudible) ... take him to hospital as soon as he was assaultedas a family? --- I stay at the J Section, and it's very far from the place atwhich this took place. It could be five kilometres or more. You said your two other brothers were working at the mines.Which mines were they working at? --- The other one was working at Hardmon,the other one was working at Reetrix Mine. It's Harmony Gold Mine and BeatrixMine. MR LYSTER Mr Moyhilwa, the fact that you have comehere today to tell us your story indicates that you loved your brother. He hasbeen taken away from you and the rest of your family. You have lost his support,his company, forever, and it was political intolerance engendered by the policyof apartheid that has caused that. In the Free State you are fortunate thatthose days have passed, and in most areas in this province people are free toexpress their political views. As you know, in some areas of this country that is still notpossible. In many parts of KwaZulu-Natal, for example, people are still murderingeach other because they support different political parties, and we know aboutthe terrible suffering that that causes, and we hope very much that the daywill come very soon that the people of that area will also be able to experiencethe political freedom that you now experience, and that has been brought aboutin part by the sacrifices that were made by people like your brother. So we thank you very much for coming here today and tellingus your story, and we hope that having told us that story, not only to us, butto the nation, to those who are listening, that you are able to carry the burdenof the loss of your brother a little easier. We will do what we can to findout more about your brother's death, why he died, and that will be done over the course of the nextmonths, and those details will be conveyed to you. Thank you very much for coming. MR LYSTER MRS TSHALE Yes, I can hear you, Sir. MR LYSTER Could you please tell us who you have withyou today? MRS TSHALE This is my daughter, Sir. MR LYSTER But as we understand it you will be givingevidence today, not your daughter, is that correct? MRS TSHALE Yes, that's correct. MR LYSTER Thank you. You, like many, many others, havecome again to tell a tragic story about the loss of a loved one, this time yourhusband, and we express our deep sympathy to you, as his wife, and to you ashis daughter. Before you give your evidence, Mr Tshale, please can you standto take the oath. MAMARAMA TSHALE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER MR LAX Before we start would you just briefly tell us about your family,how it is made up? We know you are from Botshabelo, but just some details ofyour family and your children and so on please. --- I have seven children. It'sfour boys - it's eight children. I have four boys and four girls. Now, your husband was born in 1943 on the 22nd of January, is that correct? --- That is the correct date, Sir. Thank you. Would you - the other thing about your husband whichI would like you to confirm was he was a trade union member, is that also correct?--- Yes, that's correct, Sir. Thank you very much. Would you now please tell us about theevents and circumstances that led to his death. --- It was on a Thursday morning.He went to a meeting because he belonged to an organisation called Dikwankwetla.They had a strike for seven months and they weren't going to work. Then therewere PAO lorries, as well as the lorries - GG lorries. Only a few tractors wereworking on that day when the seniors came from Bloemfontein to negotiation ontheir behalf to go to work. All the lorries from the PAO, as well as the tractors,were followed by the Hippos. And they went to the meeting, and that is wheremy husband was shot. They were sitting waiting for the members of their organisationto come and negotiate on their behalf. He was sitting down with other gentlemen.He was the fourth one. They shot him while he was still sitting and they wereplaying a certain game. They shot him five houses from where he was. It wason a Thursday, and the women from the Roman Catholic Church were in their largenumbers because it was their day of prayer. If I am not mistaken it was at about3 o'clock or two a certain lady came to me and she said to me, "Mrs Tshale,know that Mr Tshale has been shot dead and he had three wounds on his chest."That is the version I know. I will end up there. Mrs Tshale, now just very briefly, you talk about PAO vehicles. Is that Provincial Administration vehicles? ---Yes, those are the PAO, Provincial Administration cars. And the GG vehicles, is that Government Garage? --- It wasthen called GG, but it's now called PAO. Yes, that's correct, Sir. Now, this incident happened outside the Roman Catholic ChurchHall in Botshabelo. In what section is that? --- It's at E Section - at C Section. Thank you very much. Now, do you have any idea of which peoplewitnessed the shooting of your husband directly? --- I know of people who sawthe incident. Would you kindly give us their names please? --- Maketa wastheir leader. The other one is Mr Richard, and there was a lady called Maysie.Well, I do not remember some of them because there were so many of them comingto my house. Where would we be able to get hold of Mr Maketa, for example?--- He is working at the PAO offices in Botshabelo. Now, I can just confirm that you have given us a copy of yourhusband's death certificate, is that correct? --- Yes, I gave you a copy. Thank you. Now, since this time that your husband has diedhow have you and your family made ends meet? How have you been able to lookafter yourselves and so on? --- I have been battling since, but my eldest sonwas working at the mines at Harmony, but he was one of those retrenched. Andone son of mine was 19 years old, he was doing standard nine, but because ofthe problems in the family he had to leave schooling, and then he was employedin the army. He worked two years and then they were also retrenched. He wasthe person helping me. He is now sick, he is at SANTA Hospital because he issuffering from tuberculosis. Do you receive any pension, or grant, or anything of that kindto help you? --- I came to Bloemfontein after receiving my husband's blue cardmoney, and then I went to the Department of Manpower. They referred me to theCommissioner at Botshabelo. They said I should tell him to help me with thechildren. I have five children who are still schooling, and the other one is here next tome. I went to the Commissioner and he wanted the children's reports from school,and then he wanted my marriage certificate, and then I gave everything to him.It took two years before I could get the money. I am presently getting moneyfor two children, but the other three I do not get anything for them. I am workingfor a black person, and this person is helping me a lot. (Inaudible) ... information. I think at this stage I will handback to the Chairperson. MR LYSTER Are there any other questions from my ...(incomplete) DR MGOJO There's no time. I just want to know the nameof the lawyer who was handling the case when it was said that you had no lawyers.I think that is important. --- I didn't even ask who the name of the attorneywas. He was a white attorney, and there was also a black attorney, and I toldthem that I don't have any money, I don't have power, I cannot get myself anattorney. MR LYSTER Thank you very much, Mrs Tshale. It is avery, very difficult thing to lose a husband and a father, and again we expressand extend our very deep sympathy to you both. Your husband was killed whilehe was participating in a strike, and the fact that at that time people couldbe killed while engaging on something like that tells us a lot about the lackof freedom, the lack of individual and organisational freedom which people wereexperiencing in the Free State in those days. Generally these things - thingslike that don't happen today, and if they do, if the police behave in that manner,they are far more likely to be punished than they were in the past. The Commission will examine the documents from the court case,and we will investigate as to why the policemen that shot your husband wereacquitted, and we will convey that information to you. You have heard me earlieron today, and you've heard Dr Borain speak about what the Commission can offerto witnesses and victims who come before this Commission, and you will knowby now that we are not able to offer you immediate assistance. We will examineyour case and we will make recommendations to the President and to the Cabinet,and they in turn will give effect to those recommendations. In the meantime we thank you again for coming here today andsharing your story with us and the whole country, and we again hope that bythe telling of that story we hope that it in some way eases the burden thatyou have had to carry. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Sir. MR LYSTER MR PISTOL Yes, I can hear you, Sir. MR LYSTER Thank you very much. Thank you very muchfor being with us today. You have come from Thaba Nchu to tell your story. Itrelates to an assault, a brutal assault upon you which took place in February1990. Before I ask you to give your evidence I would like you please to standand to take the oath. Please stand up. Thank you. MR PISTOL (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you, Mr Pistol. I am going to ask oneof my colleagues, Mrs Virginia Gcabashe, to assist you in the giving of yourevidence. --- I thank you, Sir. MRS GCABASHE I greet you, Mr Pistol. How are you thisafternoon? --- We are still fine under the grace of God. I want to firstthank you for appearing before us to give us exactly the kind of harassmentyou went through. We know that sometimes when we speak it's as if we are nowbringing back the pains that actually went by, but because we want the realtruth we are supposed to go back a bit and ask people to tell us their stories.Please indicate if you cannot hear me, because I will raise my voice, and Iwill ask you also to raise your voice up so that we can understand each other.It is indicated that you were born in January in 1920. --- Yes, that's correct. Can you please tell us a bit about your family background.Do you have children, do you have a wife? Tell us that kind of information. --- Yes, I have children.Five of them passed away. The ones that are left are married. They are stayingin different places. I am now staying with the grandchildren. Do you still have a wife? --- Yes, I have a wife. We got marriedin a church. Are you referring to boys and girls? --- I have two boys. Are they married? --- No, the two boys are not yet married.The other one is still at school. What is the other one doing? --- He is at home. He is not feelingvery well. He is now deaf, he cannot hear perfectly well, and this affectedhim because he is also mentally disturbed. And how many daughters do you have? --- I have three daughters,and all of them are married. I am staying with a grandchild and another daughter. In other words you have four daughters? --- Yes. Can you briefly tell us about everything that you've put downon your statement? --- My story is this. It was on a Sunday when T K Mopedehad come to Botshabelo. It was a Sunday. On that Sunday I didn't go to church,and I went to listen to T K Mopede's speech with regard to us being Dikwankwetla.When he had finished delivering his speech we went back home. We dispersed,we went to our respective places. On our way back apparently there were Comradeswho were watching us. There were two of us. As we were on the way home theycame and they grabbed me by the neck. I thought they were just joking, but whenI looked I realised that it was quite a group. There were children, boys andgirls. They picked up stones. They were busy following us. We even went into another man's yard.The woman there chased us out of the yard. We didn't even know the people. Theykept on harassing us. They even pelted us with stones. They pelted me with astone on my right shoulder because I was trying to protect the gentleman withwhom I was going. As I was doing that the stone hit me on the ribs. I felt aterrible pain on the ribs. I tried to go on as if I wasn't feeling any pain.I tried to fight back, but they were busy pelting us with stones. At that timepolice appeared. They were driving the big kombi. What surprised me was thatthey didn't come to where we were, but they just went around the street, whichmeant they gave the Comrades a chance to run away. They chased them and theComrades ran away. I had fallen down at that stage, and the person I was withhad also fallen down. I dusted myself off and I was taken by the people whoknow me. I was taken home. When I got home I found that I wasn't feeling well,I couldn't breathe properly. My grandson heard. He took me in his car to thehospital. When I got to the hospital I spent a long time without being attendedto. By the time they came to me it was already in the afternoon on that Sunday.Then they took me to the x-rays. They just gave me tablets and said I must gohome, they'll see what to do with me. I was taken home. I slept at home. Thefollowing day I could not bear the pain. I couldn't breathe properly. My shoulderwas very painful. I came to Bloemfontein to see Dr Smith. He is the one whotried to help me. Because I did not have money I couldn't go back to be re-attended.Because of my ribs that were broken Dr Smith told me that had I delayed I couldhave died, but he helped me tremendously. So I went to him twiceand I got much help. I was supposed to have gone to him again but I could notafford to, because my health isn't quite well. Thereafter we were called tothe offices in Botshabelo. When we got there we found that it was a group ofpeople. There were attorneys from Bloemfontein. We couldn't discuss anythingbecause the ANC members asked that this case be dropped, and that the Dikwankwetlagroup shouldn't be assaulted. This matter ended unresolved. Thereafter I gota letter that said I should go to Botshabelo office. Then I went there. Thenthey asked me about this whole thing that took place. I explained it to them.That's where I'll end. Thank you, Mr Pistol. In order for us to clarify certain issueswe'll ask a few questions. You said in February 1990 that is the day on whichyou were assaulted. You told us that we were next to Emmen, or you were closeto Emmen. That is a place. Just explain what sort of a place is Emmen. --- Thatplace where we were assaulted? Yes, the place called Emmen. Just tell us more about it. ---They just told me it's Emmen, but I wasn't aware, I didn't know it was Emmen. Is it the name of the area? --- No, it's the name of the street.It wasn't explained to me as to whether it was a place or what, because I didn'tknow the place, but it's not very far. It's in the M Section, from where Mopedewas delivering his speech. You said you were taken to the hospital at Universitas. Whotook you to the hospital? --- Yes, the hospital in Bloemfontein, Universitas.It was another boy that is my grandchild. He took me in his car and took meto the hospital. What's his name? --- The name of the son? The name of the grandsonis Thoko. It's Thoko. It's the son of my daughter. You said when you were at the hospital they took you for x-raytests. --- Yes, they did. Did they ever explain to you as to what were the results ofthe x-rays? --- No, I was never told anything. Were you given your records? --- They never gave me anything.They never gave me the papers. Dr Smith asked me where they were. I told himthat I don't have any knowledge as to where they were. Dr Smith wanted to getthe doctor who was treating me, but I didn't know, I had no details, but hewas at the Botshabelo Hospital. You said a Casspir arrived. Were there any people arrestedamongst the group? Were there any arrests made on that particular day? --- No,they never arrested anyone. They didn't even make a follow-up, none whatsoever. You said you went to Dr Smith. Do you have any report fromDr Smith that he attended to you? --- I do have a report from Dr Smith. I dohave them at home. I even know where he stays. If we would like you to give us those papers would you be ableto do so? --- Dr Smith is next to - opposite to Listen, where there is SANTA.There is a house where he is having his surgery. Do you have any letters or documentation? Do you have a reportas to his examination? --- Even if they were there probably the children had already thrown them away. You said you were called to Botshabelo, you were called towhere there were attorneys. Who called you to this meeting? --- You mean theattorneys meeting? I don't know who called us, because when we were called onthat day we just went there as a group. The attorneys were from Bloemfontein.If there were not three, there were four or five. I don't know any one of them,but they addressed this matter. That's where it ended with these attorneys. Were they talking about the assault by the youths? Were theyaddressing you with regard to the assaults? --- Yes, they had come to addressthat matter. Thereafter what did they do for you? What did these attorneysdo to help you? --- Absolutely nothing. It just ended there, because they weresaying ANC had said that this matter must never ever happen again. That's whereit ended. They said they were requesting us - they were requesting the ANC neverever to trouble people again, and that's where it must end. In your statement you gave testimony about Nthako Vusi Johannes.You said he's your witness. You said he's the one you were with when you gotassaulted. Is he still around if we would like to talk to him with regard tothis matter? --- I can't understand your question. If we would like to speak to Johannes is there any way we canget hold of him? --- Maybe you can get him. He is still around. Mr Pistol, I thank you very much. I feel for you. You werea victim of circumstances, but we hope that these /days are days are now gone by. They belong to the past. I thank youvery much. I'll hand over to our Chairman. MR DLAMINI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Babu Pistol, canI ask one or two clarifying questions? What is the present relationship betweenDikwankwetla Party and the ANC? Do you still have harassment from the ANC Comrades?--- Right now it seems as if they have actually subsided. They are no longeras wild as before. It seems as if they have gone down. They are not as violentas before, because at that time you couldn't even go outside without requestingpermission from them. (Inaudible) ... or not that a culture of tolerance is developingin your area, and we appreciate it, we hope it's going to continue on that note.My second question. You made a request here from the Commission to help youwith - in order to be able to support your family. Can I check whether you doget any State pension or grant? --- Yes, I do get some pension money. How much is it? --- It is R405,00. It's R405,00. I am not makinga mistake, it's R405,00. I get that at the bank in Thaba Nchu. Thank you, Babu Pistol. Thank you. You said that you have got two sons, one is mentally disturbed.Is he getting any medical treatment? --- No, he is not under any medical treatment.I took him to the doctor for quite a long time, but they couldn't find anythingwrong with him. What is his name? --- He is Charlie Pistol. Mr Pistol, thank you very much for coming to tell us your storytoday. It is a very sad thing that one of the common themes that we have noticed during the course of listeningto evidence around this country is the deep lack of respect shown to elderlypeople during the course of political conflict. One can explain this - or onecan analyse it and explain it to some extent by saying that as this countrymoved towards political liberation many young people became angry and frustratedat the unwillingness or the failure of some older people to join in their struggle,but nevertheless it is very sad to hear about an old person like yourself beingbeaten with iron bars merely for attending a political rally. We are fortunate now that we have a constitution and a policeforce to protect our right to express ourselves freely, and we must work hardand vigilantly at protecting the system that so many people have fought so hardfor. You have said that you were assaulted by Comrades who belongedto the ANC, and we've also heard evidence this morning from ANC members whowere beaten and killed by members of the party that you belong to, the DikwankwetlaParty. Now, our job is not to lay blame, but our job is to record the evidenceand to analyse the evidence, and to note that it was the political system thatoperated in this country at the time that allowed these sorts of violationsto take place, and to make recommendations to the Government to ensure thatthese sorts of things can never happen again. So thank you again for coming and giving us your evidence.I feel sorry for you, and I am sure there are many out here in the hall, andthose people who have listened to your evidence on the radio, who also feel sorryfor you. Thank you very much? --- Thank you very much, Sir. MR LYSTER If you could just take a seat and put theearphones on, Mr Motlale, and please confirm whether you can hear me while Iam speaking. Are you able to hear me well enough? Thank you very much for comingin today. You are from Thaba Nchu, and you will tell us a story about what happenedto you in June 1984,. Before you tell your story please will you stand so thatyou can take the oath. SHUPING JOSIAH MOTLALE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER I will be assisting you today in the leadingof your evidence. Your full name is Shuping Josiah Motlale, is that correct?--- Yes, that's correct. And you live in Zone Three in Thaba Nchu, is that right? ---That's correct. Now, this event that you will tell us about took place in ThabaNchu in June 1984, is that right? --- Yes, that's correct. Can you just tell us briefly, at that time were you married,were you living in Thaba Nchu? Tell us a little bit about your personal background.--- I am married, and I am staying in Thaba Nchu. I am working in Mafikeng. (Inaudible) ... us about what happened to you in June 1984.I understand at the time that you were a member of the Bophutatswana Police,is that correct? --- Yes, that's correct. Okay, thank you. Can you tell us what happened in June 1984?--- In June 1984 I was working in Mafikeng. I was in the Parliament. I receiveda telegram from home which reported that my father - my brother had died. Itook this telegram and gave it to the sergeant with whom I was working because it was late. He released me and toldme that he'll report on my behalf that I had left, I must hurry home. I hurriedhome. We didn't actually talk as to how many days I would take off. (Pause) Sorry, I know that these are painful memories for you to gothrough again, Mr Motlale, so just take your time in answering and just tryand relax. We're here to listen to your story in a supportive way and to sympathisewith you. --- Then I took 19 days so that I could be able to prepare for theburial, go to insurance companies. When I went back to Mafikeng I got thereand I reported at the charge office that I was present. I was told to go backto the Parliament. I was working at six in the morning. When I got there at6 o'clock in the morning to start my duties two sergeants came in. At that timewhen they came they were already insulting me, swearing at me, and they weretelling me that I am an informer and I am poor. I could not answer them. Untilone of them said they were going to arrest this dog. I didn't answer them. Theytook me to the cells, they took out my uniform. That is when they told me thatthey are going to search me for my cards, or ANC cards. I explained to themthat I was not a member of the ANC, I didn't even belong to any political organisation,but they nevertheless arrested me. They kept me in custody. Maybe they thoughtthat I was going to give a statement and explain to the Magistrate as to whatwas happening. On the very same day of the arrest, round about 12 midnight,two sergeants arrived. It was Mutsamayi and Marume. When they came they tookme, they put me into the back of the van, where there was a dog, and there wasalso a sack. They made this sack wet and they started assaulting me with it until they took me backto the charge office. When we got there they got out some electrocuting equipment.They told me that I should tell them about all the other organisations whichwere affiliated to the ANC. They told me I was an ANC informer. It was on thevery same week that Mangope was arrested. That was when Metsing was going tosign a contract. I believe I stayed for two weeks. I couldn't appear in court,I couldn't do anything. One evening they came to me. Then during the day theywould give me rice water. After that two weeks my mother heard news that I hadbeen arrested. (Pause) Mr Motlale, we know that this is upsetting for you. You saidyour mother had heard that you'd been arrested, and did she assist you in beingreleased from prison? --- I must tell you I don't have parents. It's actuallymy sister who heard that I was arrested, and she went to Mafikeng to searchfor me. When she arrived in Mafikeng she stayed in Mafikeng searching for mefor three consecutive days. (Pause) On the fourth day they took her at about6 o'clock in the afternoon and they dropped her at Schweizer-Reineke River.They undressed her and they assaulted her. (Inaudible) ... policemen were, Mr Motlale? Were they membersof the Bophutatswana Police Force? --- These were my colleagues. I know themperfectly well. (Inaudible) ... after you've given your evidence. --- Theyundressed my sister, they assaulted her, and they just left her there, theycame back. After two weeks I appeared before the Court and I was given - I wassentenced to 15 days or R15,00. There was another chap from the ANC who was arrested, and he said, "You don't haveto pay this. When you receive a card on your release you must come to us, we'llassist you." Those 15 days were reduced to 12 days, and I managed to come home.But I went back to my work. I told them to give me money, to give me my salary,because I wasn't working for them now. They didn't give me anything. When Itried to talk to them they said I should go and get everything from Mandelabecause I was his informer in Bophutatswana. I didn't have any place to sleep,I didn't have food to eat, until one person felt sorry for me and he gave memoney until I reached my home. Even when I was here they kept on promising methat they would arrest me. At one stage I went to Mafikeng to ask them whethercan they give me anything. They said no up to this day. Sorry, can you - are you indicating that your ear phones arenot working? Can you hear me? --- I can hear you. Is that the end of your - sorry, can you not hear me? --- Iam requesting - because I didn't get anything from them. I am not working. Iget lifts when I have to go to Mafikeng. Mr Motlale, were you discharged from the defence force whenyou were sentenced? We you dismissed? Sorry, not the defence force, the policeforce. Were you dismissed from the police force? Did you get a letter informingyou that you were dismissed? --- They took me to the head office in Mafikengand I was then told that I am dismissed. Did they give you reasons? --- No, they didn't give me anyreason whatsoever. But when they were beating you and assaulting you and torturingyou did they say that you were an informer? I think that's what I understoodyou to say. --- Yes, that's what they said. Do you have any idea why they said that, why they should havesaid that? --- This happened because I was at home when Mangope was arrestedand taken to the stadium. I was at home. Now, they thought that I went hometo inform the ANC people what was happening in Bophutatswana. (Inaudible) ... at home assisting with the burial of your brother.--- That's correct, Sir. Have you been employed since then? --- No, I have never beenemployed because I am now sick. What sickness do you have? --- I think the electrocution hasaffected me, because I even had an operation. (Inaudible) ... that they got some electrical equipment. Youdidn't tell us what they did with it. What did they do to you? You said thatthey tortured you by means of hitting you with a wet sack, but you didn't tellus what they did with the electrical equipment. Can you tell us? --- They brokemy finger, two fingers on both hands. These fingers are not working. And heremy private parts are not working perfectly well. I even have a hole on my thigh. (Inaudible) ... electrical equipment, electrical torture equipment.--- Yes, that's where they applied the electric equipment. And did you make a statement to any other police about this?Did you lay charges of assault? Did you do anything about it at the time? --- I couldn't go to any policemenduring those years because Bophutatswana was still oppressing the people. At which hospital were you treated for your injuries? --- Iwent to Maroka Hospital. Mr Motlale, at this stage I'll ask my colleagues if they wishto ask any questions. In your statement you said that you were arrested because theyfelt that you went ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 8) ... says that youdid inform - get a permission from Sergeant Motsibe to go home for the burialof your brother. Did you go to the sergeant who had given you permission toask him to rectify this suspicion, because he knew that you had gone to buryyour brother? --- When these people were harassing me like this I couldn't meethim at all, and I didn't see him. Did he know that you were expelled because it was said thatyou had gone home because you had gone to be an informer? --- I can say he knows,because I sent people to him but he never came. He never came. Can you give us the date of your arrest? ---I can't remember the date very well. It was on a Saturday if I still remember. (Inaudible) ... the month of June. --- Yes, it was still inthe June month. Thank you. Mr Motlale, did your sister make any statement to the police?Did she lay any charges as far as you know? --- When she arrived at Wesselsbronshe went to the police station, trying to lay a charge against the policemen,and they asked her where will they get those policemen if she doesn't know them. Where is your sister living at this time? --- She is marriedin Botswana at this present moment. It would be very useful if you could request her to get intouch with us to also make a statement relating to what happened to her if that'spossible. --- I don't know whether will she receive the post quickly, becausethey don't have any telephones in the area they are situated. I'll have to writeher a letter, and then they take three weeks to reach them. It doesn't matter. We're still going to - the Commission isstill going to be working for many, many months to come, and it would be usefulto supplement the evidence that you have given by her evidence as well. So ifyou feel that you can do that it would be useful for us if you could write toher and ask her to make a statement. --- I will do so, Sir. Yes, one of my colleagues has mentioned that she can do itthrough the embassy in Gabarone if she wants to make a statement there, if youcan inform her of that, in Botswana. Thank you very much for coming to see ustoday to tell us your story. We will follow up this story. If you are able togive names of the people who assaulted you and assaulted your sister to ourstaff, who are down below where you were sitting, so that we can add to thestatement that you made to us some weeks ago in Bloemfontein. That will certainlybe very useful for us. We will try and follow up to see why that took place,and to confront the people who were responsible for that. And, as I've said, it will be useful to have the statementof your sister. The role of the police in this country has - in our country'shistory has always been a very controversial role. Instead of protecting therights of all citizens, and upholding those rights, in the past the police inreality served the interests of only one political group, and this of coursewas made more difficult by the fact that they created - the Government createdlots more police forces in the various homelands which were created at thattime, and you worked for one of those homeland governments, one of those homelandpolice forces. And what happened to you at that time should never ever havehappened, and we now have a constitution and a police force which will ensurethat those sorts of things do not happen ever again and, as I said earlier on,we must all work hard and vigilantly to uphold those rights, which so many peoplehave fought for. We express our deep sympathy for you at the terrible thingsthat happened to you, and the injuries that you received. We will do our bestto get to the bottom of what you have told us. As you have probably heard meand Dr Borain say today, we cannot offer you any immediate assistance. Our jobis to make recommendations to the President and to the Cabinet, and they inturn will make recommendations to Parliament to put their policies and theirrecommendations into effect. So we thank you again very much for coming today, and we wishyou well. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming in today, Mr Molatseli.Could you please put on the earphones which you see in front of you. Can youhear me? Are you able to hear me well enough? MR MOLATSELI I can hear you. MR LYSTER Thank you very much. You have come to ustoday from the Tweefontein area, where you live, which is near ... (intervention) MR MOLATSELI A little louder please. MR LYSTER Sorry, I'll speak a little louder. You'vecome to us today from Thaba Nchu, where you live, and you've come to tell usabout harassment, torture and detention which you suffered in 1978. Before yougive your evidence I'll ask you to stand to please take the oath. Could youstand up and take the oath. Is that better now? Can you hear me clearer now?Are you able to hear me? If the briefer can just indicate whether she can hearme. Okay. Could you please fit the earphones again, Mr Molatseli, and tell mewhether you can now hear me. MR MOLATSELI Yes, I can hear you. MR LYSTER That's good. Can you stand up please. MR E MOLATSELI (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you, Mr Molatseli, you can sit down,and I am going to ask my colleague, Mr Dlamini, to assist you with your evidencetoday. Thank you, Mr Dlamini. MR DLAMINI Good afternoon, Mr Molatseli. --- Good afternoon,Sir. Can I confirm if I've got the right person? The person thatwe are supposed to hear was born on the 18th of August 1914, and you look verymuch younger than that. --- Yes, you are talking to me. Can I confirm that you are 82 years of age? --- Yes, I am 82,but they've made a mistake, they've added three more years. Thank you. We really appreciate your presence here, and thetime that have accorded us, and ... (intervention) Yes, tell us more. We are interested. --- I have two sons.The other one is in Transvaal. He is now married and he is a teacher at a school,in a high School at Sebokeng. And the other one was at Vista University, andhe completed his degree this year. He is now working. May I know again whether Mrs Molatseli is present here? ---She is not here, she is at home. She is at home, she is not here with us. Can you please convey our regards to her. --- I will do so,Sir. Thank you. Can I now get into the incident that took placein 1978, which is one of the sad and unfortunate parts of the past history ofour country, where at your age you were harassed the manner you were. Wouldyou please tell us what happened and what were the reasons for the experiencethat you incurred on that particular day? --- Please bear with me. I am a bitdeaf. A policeman that I have indicated in my statement injured my ears and I cannot hear perfectly well. Do you hearme, because I can't hear myself? Yes, I can hear you. --- I think you heard me when I told youthat my ears are a bit affected now. It was early in the morning in April in1978 and I was on my way. Just before the sun could rise I was on my way toschool, and I heard a knock at my door. When I opened the door I discoveredthat it was two policemen, and they pushed themselves into the room that I wasstaying in at Selosesha. I was a principal at a place called Kroondraai. Thepeople that are at Botshabelo presently were first living in Kroondraai. I hada few teachers assisting me. Those were the people who sacrificed a lot. I wasstaying in Selosesha and I had a small room. My original home is far. It's about40 miles from Tweefontein to that place. Now, every morning I would be preparingmyself to go to school. On that particular morning the police came in and theywanted my identity document. I gave them and they started searching the house,and they found a book called, "Up from Slavery," that was written by T Washington,who was a principal at Etuski College(?). They took that book and they said,"Get out of this house because you are a terrorist. You are teaching at a Kroondraaischool. What are you teaching those children? Are you teaching them terrorism?"And they were behind me, coming - you know, pushing me, and they pushed me intoa big lorry that was parked there. I found many people in that truck, and theytook me to Selosesha Charge Office. I was accompanied by one policeman to thecharge office, and he said to the other policemen there, "This is a person whohas been /"teaching teaching young pupils politics at Kroondraai." They showedme a place to sit, and then I sat there the whole day. I didn't know why didthey pick me up. I didn't even realise that the book, "Up from Slavery," wassuch a bad thing to be arrested for. When the sun sets the police released me,they said, "Go, but tomorrow you have to be here at 8 o'clock." I left the chargeoffice. They gave me my keys and my identity document, but they kept the bookwith them. The next morning before 8 o'clock I was at the charge office, andthey said to me, "We are taking you, we are going to your place now," the placethat I have referred to which is 40 kilometres from Selosesha. The police said,"You terrorist, we are taking you to your house, we are going to search." Wedrove until we reached my place. When we arrived there my wife was not at home,she went to the church meeting. Now, the person who was at home gave us thepermission to get in. It was a police officer and two other policemen. Theysearched the house. Together with our officer we were sitting in the lounge,but there was another room in which my two sons slept. The other one was attendingFort Hare University, and the other one was at Jordan High in Sebokeng. Andthey came out with something from that room. They said, "Look at this." Theyhad Steve Biko's portrait. His hands were handcuffed. His hands were handcuffed,and they showed me the picture, they said, "Look at this. It's from inside yourhouse." I said to them, "I am from Thaba Nchu. My two sons sleep in that room.The other one is at Jordan High School, the other one is at Fort Hare. You pickedme up at my small shack from Thaba Nchu and you pushed me with your rifles,and you are here to tell me that I know this Steve Biko photo."It was even my first time to hear the name Steve Biko. They showed me that photowith his hands handcuffed. That photo was taken from the room where my two sonswere sleeping, and I said to them, "That is my sons' room." They asked me, "Whichson? Which son can we associate with this photo?" I said, "I don't know." Andthey took one of his photos, they asked me, "Who is this person the photo?"I said, "It's my son, and he is at Fort Hare University." They took that photo.Up to this day I have never received that photo. And they said, "This SteveBiko's photo, it's a very dirty photo that we got into your house." I was escorted.I want to thank God because my wife was not at home, and she doesn't want anythingto do with such situations. You know, I was like a criminal. I was escortedinto her house. I don't know what could have happened if she was there. I thankGod she wasn't there. They took the photo, the Steve Biko photo with his handshandcuffed, and they took one of my son's photos. They said, "This photo mustbelong to one of your two sons," and I said to them, "I do not know whose photois that." The third point that they indicated was very bad. The Secretary tothe Bantu Education, that's where I complained. It was a letter because I wascomplaining. It was just a copy of the letter I wrote, and they had this copywith them. They said those were the three items that they found unacceptablein my house, Steve Biko's photo, the letter that I wrote to the Secretary ofBantu Education complaining. I was asking him to intervene. I was asking himto see how the parents were involved because they built a school, but I was chased away because I was a Sotho person, and I was told to go to the other Sotho-speaking people. Now, those threethings led to the police thinking that I was a criminal. And that book, "Upfrom Slavery," because I was then painted a terrorist. Their senior asked mewhat I did want at Komdraai, because I was a member of Dikwankwetla. I saidto them, "You can inquire from any political organisation. I have never beena member because I know the Sotho-speaking people do not involve themselvesin politics." But I told them that, "When you took a different direction fromthe Sotho people they would kill you because they would disagree with you."They wanted to know about my presence at Komdraai. I told them, "You took theletter that I sent to Pretoria." I want to tell you that I taught - I taughtchildren and I taught teachers. I don't know what to say, but some of them arevery successful people. I was telling you that we came back to Thaba Nchu, andwhen we arrived at the charge office I was told that the three items that werefound at my house were really bad. They told me that the next morning ... (inaudible- witness now speaking Sotho and English) ... not later than 8 o'clock in themorning, and not later than 6 o'clock in the afternoon, every day until furthernotice. That was the instruction I got from those people. If you fail to dothat, I was told ... (inaudible) ... and banish you from Thaba Nchu. And theytold me that my children will never see me again if I can't report ... (inaudible)... o'clock in the afternoon every day, through all kinds of weather. It doesn'tmatter whether it's raining or what is happening, but you have to be there.And I did just that. I am now telling you the most disturbing thing. The following day ... MR LYSTER Can we have order please? MR DLAMINI Yes, Babu Molatseli, we know that thoseare memories that you wouldn't like to recall. Thank you. --- I can't rememberwhere did I end. Now this person, when he realised that I was ignoring him hestarted hitting me with his fists, and he was a hefty person and I fell. Myhead was swollen. This table was full of my blood, and my clothes were fullof blood. The jacket that I had on that day, and my shirt, everything was fullof blood as Those who saw me really ran away at the hospital. Then I wasbleeding from my noose, I mean through my nose, through my ears, all over. Mywhole face was bruised and bleeding, and I was not steady on my legs, I didn'tknow - I looked terrible. Then he simply ordered a police van to take me tothe hospital. I was taken to the hospital, rushed there, because they were toofrightened. I was bleeding. The bleeding had to stop. They couldn't do it, andI was taken there. When I got to the hospital many people thought I was deadbecause I was just punch drunk. I just didn't do anything. And you know whathappened to me at the hospital? Nothing. I arrived there in the morning, andwas fetched by the police at sundown. Not a single nurse saw me, not a singledoctor attended to me, and I was taken back to the police station. At the policestation just - it was just - the whole thing was just a mess. I was told togo home. Nobody had time for me there. "Just go home." I went to Selosesha.You know about Selosesha at that time, a tsotsi infested place, limping, punchdrunk, hardly knowing what I am doing. And so far really I don't know if youhave made any sense with my scattered remarks. I just don't know how far I'vegone. You have made a lot of sense, Babu Molatseli. I am now interestedin the ... (intervention) --- Let me just make a correction there. My name isMolatseli, M-o-l-a-t-s-e-l-i. Thank you for that, Babu Molatseli. --- I beg your pardon, yes. Babu Molatseli, the person who did this to you, is it the sameAbraham Ohane who is reflected in your statement? Can I confirm? --- Yes, that's the same person. Secondly, which court did the case go through? --- We wentto Thaba Nchu Magistrate's Court at Selosesha. At the time when the police were interrogating you you deniedbelonging to any political party. It wasn't safe at that time. Can I confirmare you a member of any political party now? --- I will never have to do withanything with that. Thank you. Can I also ... (intervention) --- I you mentionpolitics to me I have nothing to do with you. Just go away. Thank you very much, Dada. Can I also confirm, one of yourrequests to the Commission is to be helped with the hearing aids. The Commissionhas noted that. The Chairman will refer to it when he summarises. Secondly,you also made a request that you would wish to meet the perpetrator so thathe can explain to you why he did what he did to you, and that has also beennoted. The Chairman will refer to it when he summarises. Thank you very muchMr Molatseli for sharing with us. I know it's a painful and humiliating experience,but the manner you have shared with us we have all learned from it, and we area lot wiser than we were before it. Thank you. Can I now hand over to the Chairman. MR LYSTER Thank you very much for coming in today andtelling us your story. It was a very coherent story, contrary to what you believe. They were not scattered remarksat all, it was a very coherent story, and a very sad one. And it's a story whichtells us a lot about the previous government in this country. You had in your housea very famous book by Booker T Washington ... (intervention) --- I am listeningto you, Sir. ... "Up from Slavery," and you also had a picture of SteveBiko's hands in handcuffs, and these two items created such fear and insecurityin the police that they detained you, they subjected you to assaults, and theymade you report daily to the police station for a period of months, and theyaccused you of propagating politics in your school. And that's very sad, andas I've said before hopefully we now have a police force where that sort ofthing, that sort of interference with private citizens, can never ever happenagain, and we have to work hard at protecting the system which we now have inplace. As my colleagues have mentioned to you we will try and assistyou insofar as the impairment of your hearing is concerned. We have, since wehave been in Bloemfontein, entered into an arrangement with the Ministry ofHealth in Bloemfontein, and they have undertaken to assist people who requireurgent treatment arising out of injuries and assaults that they received arisingout of incidents which took place under the scope of the Commission, so we canrefer you to somebody in the Ministry of Health who may be able to assist you. But we thank you very much for coming here and sharing yourstory with us, and we wish you and your wife well. --- I want to thank you,Sir. MR LYSTER Thank you both for coming in today. Pleasewill you confirm that you can hear me through the earphones. Can you hear myvoice? And are you both going to be giving evidence, or will just one of yoube talking today? Both of you will be giving evidence, and you will be givingevidence together about an incident which took place in June 1990 in Botshabelotownship, and it relates to an assault upon you both by the police. And youwill be giving evidence together because you - this thing happened at the sametime. Before we proceed could you stand and take the oath please. SHADRACK RATABA and JONAS MOLEHE (Sworn, State) MR LYSTER Mr Molehe. Okay, thank you very much. Dr Magwaza. DR MAGWAZA You are still very young. I can't help feelingthat at a very tender age you were subject to gross abuse, and such violationwill leave scars, or has left scars that will take a long time to heal. We arehere today to listen to your story, to acknowledge your pain, and to give yousupport. You can begin to tell us your story. Probably, Jonas, you can beginby telling us more about yourself. --- I am Jonas Molehe. I am the son Mr Molehe,who was a teacher in Botshabelo. At this moment he is on pension. At the time when this incident happened did you belong to anypolitical party? What standard of education were you doing at school? --- In1990 I was doing standard nine. I was just a supporter of the ANC, but I hadan organisation at my heart which is the South African Communist Party. Nowwhat happened in that year, in 1990, we were a group of youths, and then weformed a gospel group. It happened that one evening while we were still at thepractice - I think you must be aware that every group has a constitution. Wewere both girls and boys singing in this choir. And then every time we wouldmeet our parents to brief them about the activities of this gospel group, andthe parents would give us advices so that we cannot just be misled. While wewere still at Retsamagile School(?) we saw police coming in. There were twoguys who used to pester with girls every day. One day at 5 o'clock from thepractice these two guys were waiting at the gate, and they had knives with them,and they had another sort of weapon in their hand. And they said, "We want agirl." We told them we are not going to allow any member from our group to goout with boys because we have to escort them until they are home, and then theycan leave their homes on their own. They attacked us, these two gentlemen, butbecause we outnumbered them they tried to run away. We chased them and we managedto get one of them, and this one was involved in - he was supporting this othergentleman who wanted a girl. We didn't have any dangerous weapons, we were bare-handed.We grabbed him and then he - our aim was to take him to our parents, becausehe also stayed in our area, so we wanted the parents to ask him why did he supporthis friend. We caught him at a place between Section C and Section W. Now, whilewe were passing a place called Simpowani - it was past seven to six, and thenwe heard a Hippo coming behind. And we did not run because we knew we were innocentbecause we only had this person in our company, we wanted to take him to theparents so that the parents can talk to him. The police arrived and they stopped.When they got out of their car they were pointing their guns at us. They askedwhat happened. We explained everything to them. They insulted us. They said,"You Comrades, you've decided to take our jobs now. We are going to show you,"and they threw us into the Hippo. We were so many, but we could all fit intothe Hippo. On our way we were trying to explain to them what happened, but theyassaulted us. They let us put our hands on the chair, and they took an emptybottle of cool drink and they started hitting us on the fingers. They had bottlesof beer in the Hippo and they were drinking. They took us to Section H. Thepolicemen on duty would take turns hitting us. We drove with them until we wentto the police station at Botshabelo C Section. The Hippo stopped. They couldn'tlet us out of the Hippo as normal people. They escorted us and they took theirguns and they hit us with the back of their guns. They took us into the policestation, and we thought that they would take us to the cells. No, they didn'ttake us to the cells, but they took us to a room called Room 13 ... (incomplete- end of Side B, Tape 8) ... to assault us. While standing against a wall theywould pull us. They continually assaulted us, tramping on our bodies, and theywere insulting us, telling us that our mothers are bitches and they will onlyfeel where they are asleep that we are in trouble. They took something and theystarted assaulting us with that. When we tried to stop they would use their heels to trample your hands, and I felt that it wasso heavy on me. They would let us stand up, and took our penis from behind andthey would hit us with something, and we couldn't identify. You can imagineyourself, you don't see this person assaulting you. I was clever enough to takea look at them, and at one stage they decided to take a look at us, and twoof the policemen were assaulting us. It was a violent area, and they have beenevicted from their houses, and I told them, I said, "Please, can you pleasetake me home because I am not feeling well." It was to 12 in the evening, andI said to them, "Take me home so that I can take my medication." I continuallyasked them, but they refused. But one of their surgeons came and said, "Takethis gentleman home so that he can take his medication." They first took roundsin the township, and while doing that they were continually beating me, andthey didn't want to listen to anything I was trying to tell them. It was atnight and I couldn't identify the section. We drove past Simpowani again untilwe reached our section. You know, I wanted to run away. I said to myself, "Shouldthey make mistake I am going to run away," but one of them said, "If you cantry to run away we are going to shoot you." We had a dog at home, and I flutedso that my dog could realise it was me, and I got into the house, I took mytablets. They escorted me, but I could manage to write down a note. And I saidto them, "Gentlemen, there is a key that my sister puts here," and I knew thatmy sister wakes up very early in the morning, and I took the key that I hadwith me, I put it on top of the note and I left it there. When I arrived atthe police station my friends were so badly assaulted. I remember one old man who was inour company. He wasn't actually our group member, but they hit him until heurinated on himself. Some of our officials from the choir were not arrested,and they managed to go home to report to our parents that we had been arrested.They went to the school to fetch my father. He went together with them to thepolice station, and we were told that we would write statements. My hand wasso swollen, and I said to them, "Look what you have done to me." They said,"We don't take care." We opened a case at the police station at Botshabelo,but we don't know what happened to those charges we laid. (Inaudible) ... it's very, very sad. I have just a few otherquestions to ask. This group, the gospel group, it was purely a gospel group?Was it a group that had a specific political affiliation? Did you all feel thesame about politics or about an organisation? --- No, we never had any intentionof politics, we were just a singing group, because I remember well we even wentto the studio to record some few cassettes. At that time what was happening in the township? Why therewere Casspirs moving around? What was happening? --- It was that violent area.It was a conflict between the ANC and the Dikwankwetla Party. When you went to the police station you said you did have anopportunity to see the police. Can you identify them? Do you know who they were?--- I know their full names because the same night there was a person who wasarrested with us, and one policeman said to the other policeman, "Come and see.Here is Chaka." I know Chaka and Mazibuko. Do you know where they are now? Are they still police, arethey still acting as policemen? --- Yes, they are still working. The other oneis working at the police station at the industrial area, and the other one isat the Section C Police Station. And what you also said, you said the charge was laid againstthese policemen. What happened? --- Yes, that's true, we laid a charge. What happened? --- I couldn't write my exams. I have to startby saying I was taken to Botshabelo Hospital, and I was transferred to PhilonomiHospital, where I was operated. And when I was released I went back home andwe laid a charge, and we were told that we will go to a parade to identify them,but that didn't take place. Because, you know, I would go to school becauseI was so fond of schooling. I couldn't write anything. My friend used to takenotes for me. The CIDs would come and they would tell us, "Let's go becausethe people are now there. Let's go and identify them," but every time we wouldbe at the police station we would be told to go back home because the peopleare not there. If I remember well it was in '91 when we were called, and thenwe tried to identify the policemen we thought assaulted us, but this other one,Mazibuko, we managed to identify. But we told them that Chaka was there andthey said, "Okay, that's fine. We know of Chaka." Which police station did you report your case? --- It was atBotshabelo Police Station. (Inaudible) ... the name of the person who was dealing withthe case? --- It was Mr Mathobisa. He was transferred to Bloemfontein. You also mentioned something about the fact that you had alawyer who was acting on your behalf, but you said he was a bit reluctant. Whatdo you mean? --- My father came with a lawyer, I think it was Cooper & Son,and together with my father we went to that firm, and then they referred usto a Mr Venter. We gave him the statement and I gave them everything, the particulars,and he said to me - he said everything that the police say to me I should takeit to them, but I couldn't because I didn't have money to be coming to Bloemfonteinevery time, and I wanted to continue with my studies. Those lawyers, are they still around? --- I can't remember. Well, regarding your treatment you mentioned that you had yourhand operated, and that that interfered with your schooling. Did you stop schoolingafter the operation? --- In 1990 I was doing standard nine. The year after thatMr Sajake, who was the school principal and the school committee, decided thatI should go to standard 10 because they knew my performance. And they decidedthat I should go to the next standard. I tried to keep up, but I couldn't, becauseeven my methods of studies have changed, I couldn't concentrate any more, becauseI would feel terrible headaches and I would be attacked by the veins(?). Do you still feel that way now? Do you still have those headaches?--- Yes. Every time when I get disturbed the headaches come back. Do you have any hospital records about your operation? ---Yes. Philonomi Hospital have my records. You also mentioned that when you were detained in the policestation you had to go home to take your medication. What medication, what wasit all about? --- The way we were being assaulted I wasn't in a position tobear the assault any more. Even animals are not punished that way. A friendof mine was also there. At this moment he's in Welkom. You know, we wanted aplan, you know, so that they can stop the assault for a time being. Tell me, Jonas, what do you do now? --- I am not staying athome now, I have my own house, and I am an upholsterer. I have a person thatI stay with, and we have a child, and I am not working. That is the kind ofwork that I am doing. Okay, thank you very much, Jonas. That's quite a very difficultsituation you are in. DR MAGWAZA Shadrack, if you could just tell me moreabout yourself. I have heard most of the story from Jonas, then I will justask you a few questions. --- Shall I start from the beginning? (Inaudible) ... you are, your age, your family, and also yourpolitical affiliation if there is any. --- I am the son to Mrs Disebo Rataba,Madisebo Rataba. My father passed away. We are 10 at home. I am the eighth child.I am one of the persons who also got injured, or who got involved with whathappened to Mr Molehe. As he has already indicated I was belonging to the ANC,and I was a supporter thereof. I was in this gospel group when the two gentlemencame, and they wanted a girl, because she was going out with one of those twogentlemen. And we refused because we had - we had a rule. We didn't allow anybody - we didn't allow a girl or a boy to attend to hisprivate matters during the practice. Now, these two boys arrived and they werearmed. They were in a fighting spirit. And then we chased them until we werebetween the W Section and J Section, and we caught them just in the middle.We actually caught the innocent guy, because he was invited by his friend tocome and fight us. We left with this gentleman to the J Section. There's a placecalled Simporoneng. There's a factory called Rubex there, and a Hippo approachedus. And the police didn't ask anything. They just picked us up, they said, "Comrades,"and they pushed us into the Hippo. That's where we felt the pain. That's wherewe felt the pain, because they didn't want to listen to our story. I rememberthere was a cool drink bottle, and they used that to hit us on our backs. Theycontinued assaulting us. That was a group doing a night shift. When we arrivedat Section H there was a new shift coming in. This outgoing team told them,"A group of Comrades belonging to Satan is here." It was after eight, I rememberwell. We left. From H we went to Botshabelo Police Station, and they had alreadystarted assaulting us. They first got out of the Hippo and they formed sortof a guard of honour, and when we got out of the Hippo we had to pass througheach one of them, and we didn't know where they were taking us to, we just sawourselves in an office. When we were in that office they said we should raiseour hands, we don't have to look them in the face. It was cold, it was in June.I remember very well they pulled us with our ankles and we could - then we fell.And every time you use your hands to protect yourself they would say, "Comeon, start afresh." And when they do this the second time, you know, the cementwas so cold. They ran, they trampled on us with their boots, and they would- and they said we were clean, they wanted to make us dirty. They used broomsticks.The first one broke, the second one broke, and they were busy trampling on us.If you tried to turn your head to take a look at them they would use their bootso that you can face down. When the second broomstick broke they took a plank,because the policeman used his two hands to handle this, and they would giveus a hiding. (Inaudible) ... no, I think you went through a very horrendous.If you could just tell us exactly, with all this brutality what - did you haveany physical injuries? What happened? --- This thing affected me and it stillaffects me, and my body is sore at all times. Especially in winter I could feelpains. When it's summer I get tired. When I wake up in the morning I am alreadytired and I cannot think, because my mother doesn't have money to take me fortreatment, and I thought now I am disabled. You have never had any treatment at all? --- No, not treatment,no treatment at all. (Inaudible) ... identify these people who did this to you?--- I know two of them, Chaka and Mazibuko. These were the two gentlemen whomwe identified. You also - you also had a charge against them in the same wayas Jonas? --- Yes, we laid charges against them. You had the same lawyer? --- This one's father sought a lawyerfor him, but we didn't find any lawyer. (Inaudible) ... now? You are still very, very young. --- Iwent back to school, because I left school earlier on and my parents said, "Please go back to school." (Inaudible) ... to school? What standard of education? ---Standard 10. Standard 10. Okay, thanks very much, Shadrack. Thanks very,very much for your story. I would like to hand it over to our Chairperson now. MR LYSTER Thank you, Dr Magwaza. Are there any questionsthat anyone else would like to ask? Thank you both very much for coming heretoday and telling us your story. I made some remarks earlier on today aboutthe police force and the role that the police force played in our country overthe last - over the past years. And the defence force has also played a verynegative role in our country, and it was used to support the work of the police,and to harass and assault people who opposed the policies of the Government,and this should never have been allowed to happen, and we must guard againstthat sort of thing ever happening again. And it's very ironic that in two short years the defence forcehas changed from being the sort of organisation that you have described, ithas changed, transformed into the sort of organisation which by and large isplaying a role in protecting and preserving our new democracy here. We fromKwaZulu-Natal have recently had our local government elections, and it was statedin the paper after those elections went off successfully that the defence forceplayed a very, very crucial role in ensuring that violence did not happen, sowe are certainly very glad that the defence force has managed to start transforming itself from the organisation it was when you weredetained and assaulted, to the sort of organisation that it is now. We will try and investigate what happened to the cases thatyou initiated against the people who assaulted you, and we will try and findout who was responsible and why those things happened. We will also make recommendationsto the State President concerning assistance to people like yourselves who havesuffered injuries as a result of human rights violations. So again that you very much for coming in, thank you for beingpatient. You've waited a long time to give your evidence today, and we hopethat by the telling of your story in public that you feel that you have liftedin some way some of the burden which you have been carrying for these years.Thank you very much. MR LYSTER MR B BOLANE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you very much. One of my colleagues,Mr Ilan Lax, is going to assist you in giving your evidence. MR LAX Good afternoon, Mr Bolane. --- Good afternoon. Thank you for coming. Can you just tell us briefly your ageplease? --- I am 36 years old. Thank you. You've told us in your statement that you left SouthAfrica in 1985 to join the ANC in Lesotho, is that correct? --- Yes, that'scorrect. Why did you do that? --- I went after a long period of oppressionthat I went through when I was still in South Africa. What made me take thisdecision was that I have suffered, and I couldn't get my identify document asfrom 1977 up to 1985. Where I was staying in Thaba Nchu each time I go to geta pass they would tell me that I am a Xhosa from Transkei. I asked them, "Howcan I get to Transkei and get an identity document, because I wasn't born inTranskei?" They told me I am a Xhosa, I should go back to Transkei. I was workingin Mafikeng. I went to Mafikeng to get an identity document. They referred meto Bloemfontein so that I could get my identity document there. In Bloemfonteinthey made me a temporary document. My ID took a long time. I went - I took thistemporary ID and went to look for work because I couldn't get any work. LuckilyI got work. It had already expired. I went on trying to change the date so thatit would be extended so that I could get some work. When I went to check ifmy ID had arrived they told me that I must go to the nearest South African town,which was Lichtenburg. I went to Lichtenburg. When I got to Lichtenburg, afterstanding in a long queue for my ID, when I got to the window I was balancingon the window as I am indicating. There was a black person at the counter. Heasked me what I was looking for. I told him I am looking for an ID. He justclosed the window without any care. He told me that I should see that it's lunchtime. I told him I didn't know it was lunch time, but he nevertheless closedthe window and left me standing on the counter. We waited until such time thathe came back from lunch. He started attending to me. He told me that I wasn't supposed to be there, I was supposed to be in Transkei.I told him, "I don't know anything about Transkei, I wasn't born in Transkei.I was born in South Africa, so don't keep on referring me to Transkei." (Inaudible) ... a moment. Can you tell us when did you eventuallyget an ID document? --- I ultimately went outside of the country without gettingmy ID. I only got it when I came back from exile in 1992. Would you now - there are a number of incidents that happenedwhile you were in exile that you told us about, which start in Dakawa TransitCamp in July 1985, is that correct? --- Yes, that's correct. Would you, as briefly as possible, try and tell us about whathappened there? We will then thereafter move on to the other incidents thatyou've told us about. --- We were in transit in Dakawa. I had said that I wasgoing to a university, so we were waiting for scholarships. The others weregoing for training. It so happened that one day when I got to Dakawa I had aproblem with the ANC alliance as well as the South African Communist Party.When I encountered this problem I approached the authorities. I had made a decisionthat I wouldn't be able to be a member of ANC because of its alliance with theSouth African Communist Party. When I got to this authority, who was a Pioneer,he was a security. The security was dealing with everything that was happeningthere. I told him my problem, then he called all the others, as well as theco-ordinator of the transit camp. They sat down. They said I should explainmy case. I went on to explain, and I told them that I had joined the AfricanNational Congress, but I learned later on that it had an alliance with the South African Communist Party, andaccording to my beliefs I don't go along with that, so I felt I should resignfrom the South African National Congress. They told me that they would callme later on, but that I knew what was happening so I wasn't supposed to communicateit to anyone else. I told them that I knew it because that is why I had approachedthem. So I went back. A day thereafter somebody came to me. I was called tothe office once more. I went. He introduced himself as Nthu. Nthu was a securityfrom Mazimbo. He said to me I should relate that - I felt I should resign fromthe African National Congress. They persuaded me that I should not resign, becauseif I resign life is going to be tough for me in Tanzania as a refugee. So theydidn't want to see people from South Africa suffering in Tanzania. I said Idon't know about that, but it's going to be difficult for me to go on in somethingthat I don't believe in. They said to me I should go and rethink the matterover, then they would call me once more. I should go and sleep over it. Fromthat day on I observed something that wherever I was going there was alwayssurveillance. Whether I was going to the bush or whether I was going to relievemyself there was always somebody watching me. I approached the security to findout what was going on. He told me there was nothing going on, and he asked mewhy should I ask such a question. Then I left him alone. Nthu came back. Thenthey asked me what was my decision. I told them that I had made the final decision.They left me alone, they never said anything, then they went. I stayed therewithout encountering any problem. Life was normal. Then it so happened - I think it was - I am not sure about the times at which this happened.It was in August. We were taken in buses from Dakawa to Mazimbo. At that timethe then President of the African National Congress, Oliver Thambo, was coming,so we were going to meet him. He was going to address us. Everybody was happy.I was also happy too, because it was going to be my first time to see a manwho had been referred by the boers as a terrorist or somebody who was abominable.I was happy to go and see him. When we got to Mazimbo there were a lot of people.Mazimbo is just outside Morogoro. The place was full. We had come to see thePresident. Our bus arrived a little bit late when he was about to finish hisspeech, so we were standing at the far end. We couldn't see him properly. Atthe time that he was leaving, when he was getting into his car, everybody triedto rush and have a glimpse of the President. Where I was standing, when I movedon to get a glimpse of the President I felt somebody pulling me from the back.When I looked I saw a Pioneer. He asked me where I was going. I said I wantedto see the President. He said I mustn't do that. He said just like that. ThenI said what did he mean. He said to me I shouldn't do it. I didn't understandwhat he meant. By that time people were getting into their cars. He got intohis car. The convoy left. We got into our buses. I was very troubled by thePioneer's behaviour. I was asking myself as to what was happening. We went backto Dakawa. Life just went on as normal. Nthu paid me regular visits, but hewasn't saying anything in particular. We stayed there until December, if I rememberwell. It happened that we went out with other Comrades to a village. So we wentto that village. We came back a little bit late. When we got therewe found that the supper had already been eaten, but we couldn't get any supper.When we got back we were so hungry. I decided to go to the dining hall. WhenI got to the dining hall I went to the logistics and I spoke to one ComradeKenny Rogers. I told him that I was hungry, please organise me something. Weknow that we are late. He started talking funny language, then he asked me whosent us out, we are not going to get any food. He further told us that therewas food, but we weren't going to get it. I pleaded with him to give us somefood. He told us that he wanted us to feel that he was the boss in the logistics.He was in charge and he could do anything, and there was absolutely nothingwe do about that. We kept on begging him. Comrade kept on talking and we feltvery disturbed by what he was saying. I started answering him. I told him, "Thisis not your food, this is the ANC food, so we want the food so you must givethe food to us." (Inaudible) ... interrupt you again. Can we just move on towhen your troubles really started, because we're having these long stories beforethe actual incidents take place. If you could try and move ahead to - is itcorrect that after this argument with Comrade Rogers he reported you to someother Comrades, and then your troubles really started? Is that correct? ---Yes, it is correct. After this, all these assaults, you made what you say was afalse confession to them. You made up a long story about how you'd been sentthere as a spy, and what you'd done at school, and a whole lot of other stuff.--- Yes, I agreed to that. And then after that it was decided that you would be takento Dar es Salaam. --- Yes, that was taken there. Will you tell us what happened in Dar es Salaam. In fact afterthat you were - you were placed in house arrest in Dar es Salaam, and then afterthat you went on to Zambia. --- Yes. (Inaudible) ... 1986, is that correct? --- Yes, that was in1986. (Inaudible) ... taken to a transit camp called Vienna, youtell us. --- When we arrived in Luanda we were taken to a transit camp calledVienna. Thereafter you went to a camp - or you called it a prison campcalled Kibashe. --- It was quite after a long time that we have been to Vienna.We were picked up at one stage and we were told to get into a Land Rover. Wewere two, and some of the commanders, and we were heading for Kibashe, but wedidn't know that we were being taken to Kibashe. But you got there eventually, and there they changed your codename to Ginger, is that correct? --- Yes, that's correct. Now, tell us what happened at Kibashe to you. --- In Kibashewe were put into certain rooms, where we got other people who were also therelocked up. They told us that there we are not supposed to say who we are, wherewe came from, and we were given new names. The following day I was taken tothe administration block. I met a recording officer, who told me his name wasEdison. Edison started speaking to me and told me that I had come to Camp 32,and I was going to tell him my complete story, and if I don't co-operate withthem they were going to make me co-operate. They told me it was going to beup to me. He took out some papers, he said I should write. He said I shouldwrite my biography. Then he said these are not the things that I had writtenwhen I was from Tanzania. He took me to the camp commander. The name of the camp commander is Pro. Pro told me that, "Here we can doanything that will make you talk. We can kill you, we can destroy you, nobodywill know whatever happened to you,so you are going to act in accordance withyour instructions." He called others. When the commanders came in they saidI must stand in the centre of the room. They told me I should write on thesepapers. I pleaded and told them that I didn't know anything. They took out coffee.Coffee is what they were referring to was sticks when they said coffee. Thenthey started assaulting me on the back with what they called coffee, and theykept on kicking me with their reef boots. I was severely assaulted. I fell down.When I fall down they would pick me up and say, "Continue, talk." I would tellthem I didn't know anything. They threatened me and told me that they were goingto show me. They told me that whatever I was against they were going to makeme to be along the lines. I told them that whatever I had written was true,that I wanted to resign because of certain reasons. They said they were goingto teach me to do whatever they wanted to do. They made me frog jump. They callit number nine. They would make me stand as I am indicating. I had no senseof balance whatsoever, I was falling all over the place, and they would makeme stand erect. They kept on assaulting me. When I fell down they ceased assaultingme. They went out and I was left with only one. That was the commander. Thecommander said to me I don't want to talk. He told me that these people hadn'tdone anything to me, they were going to do the real thing to me. He told me,"We are going to do something with you." He came to me. He took out his pistol.He came to me, he pointed it on my forehead. He asked me if I was preparedto talk. I was very scared, I was shaking. I asked myself as to what am I supposedto say. He said I should open my mouth. He put his pistol inside my mouth. Hetold me he could do anything to me, am I prepared to talk. I was really shaking,and I said to him, "All right, I will talk," and then he removed the pistol,he took some papers. And he said to me, "Tell me, what brought you here? Whatwere you doing inside the country? Who sent you to this mission outside thecountry so that you can infiltrate the ANC?" He wanted me to tell him the missions,all the missions that I undertook in the country. And I started creating stories.I told them all the things that I did, and I told them the people I reportedto while I was still in the country. (Inaudible) ... stop you again there. You've given us the fulldetails of the story you told them, and in the interests of time I am goingto ask us to carry on and speed up a little bit. The story you've told themis recorded here, and after that story was given to them they seemed to haveaccepted that story, and then you were sent to a prison. --- Yes, I stayed there.They didn't allow us to call it a prison. That was Camp 32. Camp 32, thank you. --- It's a camp outside Kibashe. It's inthe bush. They call it Camp 32. I was there at that time. (Inaudible) ... were made to do hard labour, and you were beatenfrom time to time, is that correct? --- Yes, that is true. Now, you've also told us that in 1988 you became unwell andyou developed hypertension. --- Yes, it is true. Just tell us a little bit about your treatment and so on. ---As we were still there we were given tablets, Diazapan. That was what they weregiving us for hypertension. I continued being like that. My condition didn'timprove. Even now I am still taking the treatment. Now, in 1988 and 1990 you were taken to Gokalota town, is thatcorrect? --- Yes, we were taken from Angola, the bases of ANC, then we weretaken to Uganda. Just outside there there was a camp where we were taken to. (Inaudible) ... when the ANC pulled out of Angola. --- Yes. And you say that you were released in 1991, and then you resignedfrom the ANC and you returned home, is that correct? --- Yes, that's correct. Now, somewhere in here you mentioned that you were tried ata tribunal. If you can just fit that in for us, because it's not clear exactlywhere it fits in in the time frame. --- Before we went out of Angola in 1988,if I remember quite well, we were taken. I think we were 21 or 22 from thatcamp. We were taken to Luanda. When we got to Luanda we were given charge sheetsand they told us that there was going to be a tribunal. On that day of the tribunalthey told us that we would get attorneys from the ANC who would represent us.We waited for the tribunal. On that particular we were taken to - initiallywe had cleaned a hall where they said the tribunal was going to be held, butlater on we were taken to a house. We got in there one by one. They would tellus to stick to our stories. They said, "Whatever you said at the camp /"you stick you stick to it, and if you don't stick to that story you knowwhat's going to happen to you. If you stick to your story we'll be lenient toyou." When we got in there with all the counts that were listed on the chargesheet I had about six counts listed. I don't remember some of them. One of themwas infiltration, then other one was trying to desert the organisation. I don'tremember the other ones, but they were six in all. So we appeared in front ofthe tribunal. When I got in there they just read the record that I had writtenat the camp. They asked me what I expected from them. From there you went backoutside. We were taken back to the camp thereafter, after the tribunal. (Inaudible) ... outcome of the hearing or anything? --- No,we never go it. Now, you said that you resigned from the ANC after you werereleased in 1991 and then you returned home, is that correct? --- I got outof the ANC in 1991 when I got to Tanzania, and I arrived home in 1992. And then you applied to rejoin the ANC once you came back,is that correct? --- Yes, it's true, because when I got here I realised thatI wanted this matter to be investigated further, so - I just want to explainthat little part. I started in Uganda when they had just unbanned the liberationmovements. I said to them, "I want this to be reinvestigated because it wasn'ttrue." I realised that the ANC had been unbanned, though there was a difficultyto investigate the matters back home. So it was going to be easy now since theunbanning. They made me write my biographies, but nothing happened thereafteruntil we came out. When I arrived in South Africa I said I felt that I had been treated unfairly by theAfrican National Congress, so I reckoned that I wanted the matter to be reinvestigated.I wanted the truth to come out. I wanted my name to be cleared, because theallegations were not true. I realised that I should go back to the ANC, becauseif I was outside it would not be possible for me to clear the matter out, soI re-applied in 1992. Okay. What would you like us to do for you about this terriblestory that you've told us? --- What I would like the Truth Commission to dofor me is that I would like the truth to be revealed. I want the ANC to comewith the truth. I want further investigations to be done. I want them to digout for the truth. I want to know whether it's true what they are alleging.I want my organisation to apologise for the appalling treatment that they gaveme. I want them to apologise, because I wanted to go to school but I could notgo because of the treatment that they gave me. Thank you, Mr Bolane. What we will try and do from our sideis try and investigate the matter to the extent that it's possible. We alsounderstand that the ANC will be coming with their own submission, where theyintend to deal with a lot of issues that happened in some of the camps, andwith a bit of luck they might tell us something about your story, or we maybe able to uncover something about your story as well. I hand over to the Chairperson. I just want to clear one thing. There's no time, I know that.Mr Bolane, there are strange names here to me, the people who are mentionedhere in your statements. Are these people South Africans? Names like Jomo, James, Kwesh,Abba, Pro, P4. All those people, are they South Africans? --- They are all SouthAfricans. These are pseudo names, because when we were outside we were usingpseudo names. They are South Africans, all of them. (Inaudible) ... people. --- I know some of them. They are here.I don't know their real names. I only know them according to their pseudo names.Some of them are in top positions here. MR LYSTER Thank you, Mr Bolane, for giving us thatstory. Thank you for being patient and having waited all day to give this story.It's clearly a story that you needed to tell very badly, and we are glad tohear it. It is a sad story, and it is sad that you, having left the countrywith such enthusiasm, should have returned a disillusioned and a sick personas a result of what happened to you, and it seems to me that your life has changedsubstantially as a result of that decision that you took to go into exile. Thosethings should never have happened to you, particularly at the hands of an organisationwhich has always had such strong views about that sort of arbitrary violence. I note from what you said in your evidence that you have rejoinedthe ANC, and it does indicate that there is some reconciliation between youand that party, and we can certainly continue a mediation process between yourselfand the ANC if you wish. We can arrange that for you. Furthermore, if you requiretreatment, further medical treatment - I note that you are getting treatmentfrom the Botshabelo Health Clinic. If you are not satisfied with that treatment you may be able to get treatment through theroute that we have organised with the Ministry of Health here in Bloemfontein. So thank you once again for coming in and for telling us yourstory, and we wish you well. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1996/11/04