hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS BLOEMFONTEIN 3 Mrs Hadebe and Mrs Tswabisi, Mr Molebalwa, Mrs Sesele and Ransehu Sylvester Bernard Sesele, Martha Tipe, Mrs Xhoso, Nomvuyo Bosch, Malefu Miriam Phole, Mrs Gyeswe, Mr Mohlahle, Maysie Matselane, William Thayisi https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56203&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvbloem/bloem3.htm (Incomplete - beginning of Side A, Tape 10) ... in court. Untiltoday nothing has been done. MR LAX You actually saw the body of Mrs Tswabisi? ---I saw Mr Tswabisi's body, as well as my sister's body. They were sleeping nextto each other. Can you confirm what sort of injuries they had? --- I couldn'tsee properly, but Mr Tswabisi was bleeding through the nose as well as the ears.My sister was bleeding. There was a wound, an open wound in her neck. Thank you. As far as you know has any case ever happened aboutyour sister's death? --- We were never notified. I know absolutely nothing. (Inaudible) ... death certificate? --- Yes, we did get thedeath certificate. Would you be able to make that available to us please? ---I didn't bring it with. (Inaudible) ... from you later. Now, you told us that therewas no children in her house. Did she have children? --- She had three children. And who's taking care of those children? --- I am the one who'staking care of the children. Do you receive any assistance? Are you working? --- Yes, Iam working. And do you receive any assistance for those three childrenfrom anyone else, or from the Government? --- No, I am not getting any helpfrom anywhere. Thank you, Mrs Hadebe. Can I now ask Mrs Tswabisi please totell us her story. Good morning, Mrs Tswabisi. --- Good morning. Can you please try and speak a bit closer to the microphone,otherwise we can't hear what you're saying. That's much better, thank you. MrsTswabisi, you were married to Steven Molefe Tswabisi, is that correct? --- Yes,that's correct, Sir. And your husband was killed in a shooting on the same day asAnna Hadebe. --- Yes, that's correct, Sir. Can you tell us a little bit about your family, how many ofyou there were or are? --- I have six children, two boys and four girls. How old was your husband when this happened? --- He was bornin 1924. I don't remember quite well how old he was when this took place. (Inaudible) ... helpful for us to have the date. Now, pleasewill you tell us what happened on that day that your husband got shot. --- Therewas a boy caught on that particular day. My husband got shot whilst he was outside.He was washing. He got into the house. He went into his bedroom. That's wherehe prepared himself. He was combing his hair. That's when I heard a gunshot.The gunshot went for the second time. Anna was also shot. When he got into thehouse I was in the kitchen. I had taken the child. He went out of his bedroom.He went out through the kitchen door. He told me that he was going to town.Just as he was going out of the kitchen door I heard a gunshot. He turned backand he was sort of staggering. When he got to the bedroom door that's wherehe knelt. I put the child down to try and attend to him. I held him. I askedhim, "Have you been shot?" That's when he bled through the mouth. The bloodwas just seeping out. Then when he was kicking that's where his strength started to wane. I was very confused at that time.I ran outside to enlist some help. I couldn't get anyone to help me. I got backinto the house. I found that he was still bleeding through the mouth. (Pause) (Inaudible) ... take your time just to recover. Nomusa, canyou help her? (Pause) Are you feeling all right now, Mama, that you can continue?--- Yes, I can continue, Sir. When I went out for the second time I saw anotherman, but I have forgotten what his name was. I called him in. He got into thehouse. He found my husband sprawled on the floor. He asked whether my husbandwas shot. I said yes, he was shot. This man went out. He came back in a car.He took my husband. Then I saw quite a number of men in the house. My husbandwas put into the car. They were taking him to the hospital. Mr Lepaka is thegentleman who took my husband to the hospital. When they got to the bridge theycame across the car that had the occupants who shot at my husband. They tookhim from there, they put him into an ambulance and took him to the hospital.I was left behind, I never went to the hospital, because I was very confusedand I was all by myself in the house. I had a small child. Nobody went to thehospital to actually find out whether he was shot or he was just sleeping. WhenMr Lepaka came back within a short while there came the police. They took me.They said I must go and make a statement. I went with them. I told them andrelated as to what had happened. Then we came back home. What happened after that, Mama? Please take your time ... (inaudible)(Pause) Do you feel not able to continue? Would you like to stop there? ---I will just end up there because I can't remember things very well.I can't remember what happened thereafter, after having written the statementat the police station, but I remember when I got home my two boys were back,they were at home, and they've been the ones who were going up and down goingto the doctors and to the hospitals and to the mortuaries to find out exactlywhat happened. I just sat at home, and I was mentally disturbed and I was soconfused. Thank you for that. Are you able to confirm that there wasa strike on on that day, and that there was quite a lot of shooting in the area?--- Yes, there was a lot of violence in the township. The youth took the barricadesand they put everything on the roads, and they were singing. There was a lotof violence I must say. Are you aware that there was an inquest into your husband'scase? Do you remember that? (Pause) Do you not understand the question? (Pause)Sorry, can you just stop for a second? I can't hear a thing. --- The policecame to my house and they picked me up. They said I should go and write a statement,and thereafter they came to my place now and then to tell me that I should goand appear in court. And every time they would tell me that the case has beenpostponed, and I was then told that my husband died in a conflict. He was caughtin the middle of a conflict and he died like a soldier, and they just left methere. Thank you. If I can tell you that we have been able to getthe court papers from that inquest. We have only recently got them, so we haven'thad a chance to look at them properly, but we will try and tell you what theysay. /After your After your husband died who looked after you, who was ableto support you after that? --- Nobody helped me. I survived on the donationsfrom the people, and I applied for pension and that was organised. It was in1991 when I started getting pension and the money where my husband was working.He was working at National in Boksburg. So did you get a pension from them as well? --- Yes, they usedto send me a cheque. Every month they would send me a cheque. Since last yearthey haven't sent me anything. Have you made any inquiries to find out why? --- Yes. My sonwent to Boksburg to inquire. He went to ask them what happened, and they saidto him no, they thought that I was dead. So have they started again? --- No, Sir, not now. Perhaps someone from our office can help you follow that up.Okay, I have no further questions. I will return to the Chair. DR MGOJO Just one question. In your statement you saythat you have suffered painful headaches ever since the incident. Do you getany medical treatment for these headaches? --- No, I don't get any medication.I only get a few tablets from the chemist. I told them about my headaches andthey said I should come and buy some medicines if I have money. Okay, we'll try and attend to that too. Thank you. Mrs Hadebe and Mrs Tswabisi, thank you very much for comingin today to tell us your very, very sad story. You have both lost your loved ones, your sister and your husband,and you have suffered pain and sorrow together, and we hope that it has beenof some small comfort to you that you are able to sit together on this stageand give your evidence to the Truth Commission. Your sister, and your husband,Mrs Tswabisi, died in terrible circumstances during those times in our country,when the police were permitted by the Government to act in a violent and unrestrainedway, and we are thankful that in most parts of the country those days are over. We will try and make investigations to see why the people responsiblefor the death of your family members were not brought to justice, and if wediscover any more details than the details that we already have we will contactyou. I see from your statements that you have requested compensationfor the loss of your family members. Now, the Truth Commission does not havethe power or order compensation to be paid to people. Our job, or part of ourjob, is to make recommendations to the President and to the Cabinet, and itis up to them to decide what assistance or compensation should be given. However,in the short term, if you feel that you need medical treatment, like my colleague,Dr Mgojo, has suggested, or if you need counselling, we are able - one of thecommittees within the Commission is able to arrange for you to see somebody,to see a counsellor in this region, someone that you can talk to about the lossof your family members, in the hope that it may make it a little easier foryou to carry that burden. And if you would like to see a counsellor, a psychologicalcounsellor, please will you tell us before you go home today, and we will try and arrangethat. So we thank you again very much for coming here today. We feeldeep sympathy for you, and we wish you strength. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER Mr Molebalwa, are you able to hear me throughthe earphones? Can you hear me clearly? MR MOLEBALWA Yes, I can hear you clearly. MR LYSTER Good, thank you very much. You have comefrom Selosesha township in Thaba Nchu today to tell us your story, and thisstory relates to your assault and shooting by members of the Bophutatswana DefenceForce in November 1990. Before I ask you to tell us your story can you pleasestand and take the oath. MR MOLEBALWA (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you. Please sit down. I will be assistingyou today in giving your evidence. Very briefly can you just tell us where youlive, something about your family background, are you married, are you employed,just a few sentences. --- I am married. I am also working. I have three children.I have a family as well as my own relatives. I am working at Thaba Nchu Sun.I am a chef there. Thank you. Now, this incident took place in November 1990. What were youdoing at that time? Were you in the same job as a chef at the Thaba Nchu Sun?--- I was from a course. When I was from the course I was with other peoplewhom we were training with. We went to my place. We sat. As we were still sittingthere we were having some drinks. Just as we opened the drinks there came asoldier. I do know this soldier who came into my house. He said that he wantedother people to go outside. There was a couple in the house, so he said he wantedthe man to go out of the house. I thought there was going to be a search. Thenwe went outside. I was the last one to go out. As I was going out they were making something like a guardof honour outside. It was just green with soldiers. I just waited to see whatwas happening. All of a sudden we were assaulted with sjamboks. We kept on askingas to what was happening. One of the soldiers, his name is Blackie, he shot.That's when we scattered and we tried to run to different directions. As wewere running there was another Casspir that was coming. When I turned aroundI just heard gunshots. I fell down. There's a boy who came to me by the nameGufuthi. I asked him whether he realised that he had shot me, but he didn'tspeak to me. He took me out to the street. I wasn't even aware that there werebarricades in the street. He took me there, he said I should remove the stonesand the barricades. When they realised that they had shot me I also saw thatthey had shot me. That's when I started getting very angry. Then I wanted tofight back as a man. I became very stubborn. I asked them whether they realisedthat they had shot me. Then he started running away. (Pause) I am sure these must be very painful memories for you to livethrough again, so just relax please and take your time, and carry on when youare ready. --- Then when I started to be stubborn I stood amongst them, andthey kept on assaulting me with these sjamboks. I pushed one of them away. Itold them that they had shot me, and they had shot me right inside my house.One of them got out of the way and I was able to get into the house. I got oneinside the house who was insulting my wife, calling her a bitch. I got veryangry. I asked him what he wanted. That was Blackie Mahoti. I was bleeding. Then he ran away. As he was running away everybody went out. We also went out, and when we went out we discovered that they were no longerthere. As we were sitting there came a police van. That was my brother-in-law.Then my brother-in-law took me to hospital. As I was at the hospital I arrivedthere at about eight. I went to the theatre the following day. Then came otherguys who they said were leaders of the soldiers. I don't remember their names.They came to me to ask me what had happened. I told them that I was not in aposition to tell them what had happened because of my condition. Then they leftme and went. They came back later. They asked me what had happened. Then I relatedthe story to them. They were writing. When they left it only dawned on me thatI shouldn't have told them what had happened. I had a fear that my case wouldend without being sorted out. Thereafter there came others. They were CIDs.They also asked me what had happened. At that time I told them I wasn't goingto say anything, I wasn't going to give them any information, I was preparedto talk in court. Then they told me they had come to take a statement from me.They went away and left me. I stayed in hospital for four months. I wasn't paidat work. I just stayed like that, and I was having children and a wife. I wasdischarged, I went back to work. When I went back to work I was told to go toMr Mapatswane, who's an attorney. I was taken by the ANC members who had causedthe strike. I took the photos. I was told that I could get some help. ThereafterI discovered that all the documents were no longer with him, but they were withMr Mthembu. I have been waiting since then that Mr Mthembu was going to fill me in. When I was supposed to get the results I got a letter. I got a letter that said the case had been heard in1995, May, and the case was finalised. I met a Captain Magapela. He told methat the case had been finalised. Then he gave me some phone numbers that ifI wanted the case to go back to court again I should contact that person inthat number. Ever since then nothing has happened. Mr Molebalwa, do you know - in fact you do know the names ofthe soldiers that - or the names of some of the soldiers who assaulted you.You've given us the names of Blackie Mahoti. Was he one of the people who ...(incomplete) --- Yes, he's one of them who assaulted me. (Inaudible) --- I know Gufuthi, Musi. Mashibene pulled me outof the house, and Blackie Mahoti. sorry, armed soldiers moving around in Casspirs? And let mejust clarify one thing. Were those soldiers from the South African Defence Forceor from the Bophutatswana Defence Force? --- Those were the Bophutatswana soldiers.It was a stay-away, but I didn't know because I was at work. I had gone to mycourse, to do my courses. I wasn't aware that there was something happeningat the location. When I came back that's when the whole thing happened. Thatwere there barricades I only realised when I was taken to the scene. I neversaw what was happening outside. The friends that you were with, the friends that you had beenon the training course with, were they also assaulted, or were any of them shot?--- Yes, they were assaulted severely. I met them before I came to this TruthCommission. I told them that I was going to tell my story. They said I shouldgo on. To them all this belongs in the past. I told them that I should go tothe Truth Commission because I can't work as I used to. I can't discharge myduties properly because my foot is always aching, it's always giving me problems.I realised that I had been disabled or somehow crippled. (Inaudible) ... they want to make a statement to the TruthCommission all they need to do is to go to our office in Bloemfontein, and infact later today I will make an announcement as to the address of that office,and there will be statement-takers who will take their statements. They're notobliged to, but we would very much like to hear from them. And just to get clarity,you /were shot were shot in your foot or your knee? Can you just confirm?--- I was shot at the knee. You can show us if you like. And did the bullet go right throughyour leg? Thank you. I'll just ask my colleagues if there are any questionsthat they'd like to ask you. DR MGOJO Just one question. I hoped that I was goingto hear more about your brother-in-law who was a police, who came with the police.I'd like to hear the reaction really apart from taking you to the hospital.Your brother-in-law is a police. What did he ... (incomplete) --- He didn'tdo anything. MR LAX Mr Molebalwa, just for the record, that letteryou've got is actually a letter which confirms that the Attorney-General declinedto prosecute anybody for the offence involving your shooting, is that correct?--- Yes, that's correct. I just want to clarify one question regarding your health.You are saying here that you have to absent yourself from work from time totime, and that you need medical treatment. Is it just about your knee? --- Yes,it's because of the knee. At the moment are you getting any treatment from the doctoror from the hospital, ongoing treatment? --- No, I normally go to special doctors,and they would give me medication and I would go back to work. Well, what we would like to have is also to get the recordsof your treatment. /MR LYSTER MR LYSTER Thank you, Mr Molebalwa. You suffered a terrible indignity, being shot in your own house while relaxingwith your friends, and it's also terrible that you were shot not by thugs, butyou were shot by Government employees paid for by your own tax money. Yesterday I made some remarks about the Defence Force in thiscountry, and how it was used by the previous Government to harass people andto suppress them, and we are very thankful now that by and large, and in mostparts of the country, the Defence Force has transformed itself into a very differentorganisation that is here to protect all South Africans, and to protect thenew institutions in our country. We thank you very much for coming here today and for tellingus this story. It helps us to put the picture together that we are obliged toput together when we report to the Government, and your story has painted avery vivid picture of what was happening in Thaba Nchu in 1990. We will be intouch with you once we have followed up the case, the details of which you havegiven us, and as soon as we have those details we will come back to you again.Thank you again very much for coming in. MR LYSTER - are you able to hear me? Can you hear the translator speakingto you? MRS SESELE Yes, I hear them. MR LYSTER Thank you very much for coming in. As I understandyou live in Gauteng, is that right? Are you staying in the Free State? MRS SESELE I stay in Vereeniging. MR LYSTER And this story that you will tell us todayrelates to the death of your daughter, who was killed in 1987, is that correct? MRS SESELE Yes, that's correct. MR LYSTER Before you give your story can you pleasestand and take the oath. MRS SESELE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you very much. I am going to ask mycolleague, Dr Magwaza, to assist you in giving your evidence. And it's clearthat the memory of the death of your daughter is very, very upsetting to you.Please remember that you can take your time, and you can interrupt your evidencewhenever you feel that you cannot go on. Dr Magwaza. DR MAGWAZA Mrs Sesele, I know that losing a child isone of the difficult things that any parent could face. It was so tragic thatyour child should have been caught in a conflict which it didn't even understand.We know your pain is very profound, and we are here to acknowledge it and supportyou. Could you tell us more about your family at that time? Do you still - tostart with, do you still live in the same address where this happened? --- No,not now. Okay. Could you tell us about your family? --- (Incomplete... end of Side A, Tape 10) ... at about past six I heard gunfire outside. Thegunfire was so strong. I went outside to go and look for my children. When Iwent out I met two children with their friends. I asked them where Lani was.That's my daughter's nickname. They showed me a certain direction that theywere chasing each other towards that direction, and she was driving a bicycle,she was cycling. It wasn't even a long distance from my gate. I saw her bicyclethere. When I looked a little bit further I saw her lying face down on the ground.I took her, I turned her up. I thought I was going to resuscitate her. I liftedher chin up. I saw a big hole in her neck. (Pause) We understand your pain. We really do. --- I lifted her up.At that time her father was still there. I took the child into the yard. AsI was getting into the car I saw Joe Mamasela standing direct opposite my kitchen.He was standing at the fence that divides our houses. He had a revolver in hishand. I went into the car, I got into the car. I asked my husband to rush mychild to the hospital. As we were driving away we left Joe there and went tothe hospital. When I felt my child's pulse she was still breathing. We wentto the hospital. At the casualty they resuscitated my daughter They took herto the theatre, because at that time there were no doctors at the casualty.She was having emphysema, she was getting swollen, so she was taken into thetheatre. I went out to tell her father what was happening. I went into the theatre, I got the doctors resuscitatingmy daughter. I saw them throwing their hands, indicating that they couldn'tdo anything to help my daughter. We went back home. This is a very, very painful time for you. Just take your time.We'll give you the time. (Pause) I'd like you to tell us more about what washappening in this time. Why was your little girl caught up in this crossfire?And why was Joe Mamasela there that particular time? --- On that Saturday whenmy daughter died it was a funeral of a certain Comrade who was staying closeto us, and apparently Joe Mamasela had killed that Comrade. I would like myex-husband to help me wherever I don't have a clear recollection of the events. MR LYSTER Thank you. Are you the father of the younggirl who died. MR SESELE Yes, I am the father. MR LYSTER I see. Okay. Are you just here to supportyour ex-wife? You're not going to give evidence yourself? MR SESELE Ja, I am here to support her. MR LYSTER Okay, then it's not necessary to swear youin. Thank you. You can just be there to support her. Thank you, can you pleasecontinue. --- Joe Mamasela had killed the Comrade on a previous week on a Saturday,and the following week there was a funeral. The aim of these Comrades was toburn Joe Mamasela's house after the funeral of that Comrade. At about 5 o'clockthe Comrades were coming with petrol bombs, and there was absolutely no fighting,children were playing outside. This group of Comrades threw the petrol bombsinto the yard of Joe Mamasela. These petrol bombs came from the direction of the opposite houses. They threw the petrol bombs in Joe Mamasela'syard. Joe Mamasela went out and he shot at random. He shot at the opposite directionfrom where the Comrades had thrown the bomb. He just shot at random there. DR MAGWAZA The question also which I would like topursue is it looks like it is a continuation of something, some conflict thatwas taking place. The day when the other boy was killed, what was happeningat that time? You said the other boy had also been killed by Joe Mamasela? ---Ja, the previous week. The previous week, yes. What was happening at that time whenthis boy was killed? --- I can't remember well. MR LYSTER Mr Sesele, is there something short thatyou wish to say? If you're going to say something I must ask you to stand andtake the oath. RANSEHU SYLVESTER BERNARD SESELE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you very much. Could you just restrictyour remarks to that which your wife is not able to remember? --- Okay. On thisparticular day of the killing of my kid I can't really say what happened withthe previous incident that happened the previous week, but there was so muchof a commotion by the SAP with the same Joe Mamasela in the same street. Theywere running around, and when we inquired from the neighbours it was alleged that Mamasela had killed one boy somewhere down ourstreet at a shebeen, and the cause thereof I really can't say. It was just whatwe heard that happened the previous week, on a Saturday too, before the killingof my kid the following week on the 3rd of January 1987. DR MAGWAZA Joe Mamasela was your neighbour. After thekilling did you speak to him, or did he speak to you about the killing? ---I last saw Joe Mamasela on that Saturday when I was coming from the hospital.He never said a word to me. On Tuesday we left for Kroonstad to bury my daughter.I last saw him when I was coming from the hospital. You have said that there was a court case in your statement.Can you tell us briefly what happened? MR SESELE On that particular day there were a lot ofcases, and what really puzzled me is the manner in which the Magistrate wasso - I am trying to look for the right word. He didn't actually care for anycase, and all the cases that were put forward to him his statements or his remarkswere all of them were dead because they were drunk, because there were casesof cars and so on. And every one of the deceased was drunk, and I was just waitingfor him to tell me whether my kid, an eight-year kid, was also drunk when shewas shot by Joe Mamasela. They way he was seated, you know, it was just a don't-carattitude from the Magistrate. I had on my own to call him to order, that hedoesn't know what he's speaking about in this particular case, whether he reallyknows what he's actually talking about regarding my kid, and whether he knowswhat happened to my kid. I told him that my kid was shot, and that's why we were there at court. He had now towake up from his seat, with all respect to this Commission, and he said he wasgoing to arrest me for contempt of Court. I stood up and I said to him, "Goon and do it immediately." The prosecutor had to intervene, and he had to correctthe magistrate, telling the Magistrate exactly what my case was all about. Andit was said that the killer or the killers were unknown up to this day. Did you have a lawyer acting on your behalf? --- No. Do you still have details on that case, the Magistrate andall the proceedings? --- Yes, the court case I have. The details of the court case? --- Not the details, just thenumber of the case. Okay, you have - has it been submitted to the Truth Commission?--- I am not sure. Yes, it has been submitted. Okay, thank you very much. (Inaudible) ... pick up one issue which you mentioned, thatthe death of your daughter did affect your relationship with your husband atthat time. --- Yes, it did. It's true, because we used to share the childrenduring the holidays. We were in joint custody. At times they would go to Soweto,at times they would visit Kroonstad. I am saying this because I was not awarethat my husband was accusing me of being the killer of my daughter. He toldme that he had asked me to take the children to Kroonstad during December holidays,but I refused, I said I wanted to stay with my children during the holidays.During the holidays they would go to his mother's place, as well as to my mother'splace, alternatively. When my child died he blamed me for the death of my daughterbecause I had refused to allow my children to go to Kroonstad. I feel had Iallowed them to go to Kroonstad probably my child wouldn't have died, so eachtime he used to accused me and say Joe Mamasela and myself have killed his child.I asked him how could I give birth to a child and then kill the very same child.There came a time when I felt these accusations were quite unfounded, and weargued a lot. We realised that the relationship was getting sour by the day.We decided that we should part ways. We divorced in 1991. (Inaudible) ... a tragic story as I have said. I think whenthe family is affected by this type of tragedy then I think it becomes very,very serious. But what I would like to say here is that it's quite clear thatboth of you were deeply affected by the death of your daughter. /I understand. I understand that your husband even got psychiatric treatment. --- Yes, but not long. Not long, but it indicates the extent of trauma you both experienced.And also up to this moment you're still very traumatised. I would suggest thatyou take this seriously and see the counsellor or the therapists. I think bothof you are well educated, you'll understand the seriousness of this and howit's affecting your life, and how it might end up affecting the lives of yourown children, the two remaining children. If you need any assistance we arethere to help you in connection with your own health. Is there anything elsewhich you would like to say? I would like to hand over to our Chairperson. Just one question. This is a serious, painful thing. I don'tthink that it can just be left as it is. Joe Mamasela had shot a neighbour.Do you know the name of this neighbour? --- Unfortunately not. You don't know? Thank you. And Ransehu Sylvester, you havejust said that the Magistrate adopted a don't care attitude. --- Yes. Do you know the name of this Magistrate? --- Today, no, Sir,I don't. You don't know the Magistrate? --- No, but I think from thecase number we can ... (incomplete) You can what-do-you-call. --- Ja. And the prosecutor, you don't know his name? --- No. No. Thank you. I think that will need to be investigated by ourteam. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just one question. On a few occasionsJoe Mamasela has appeared through the media confessing to some of the storiesthat he was involved in. What I would like to establish with yourselves, whetherhe has said anything to either of you to the effect of confessing and perhapsasking for forgiveness. --- No. And just to end on the note that I think hasbeen set here. To make matters worse he was actually gunning for me when I wasbusy making the arrangements for my kid. The following Monday I was right fromseeing a doctor out in Vereeniging, I was on my way to Sebokeng. He was justdriving in front of me, I was coming at the back, and when we were approachingthe four-way stop, that's the one that's getting into Sebokeng, the other one'sgetting into Potchefstroom, the other one is getting into Vanderbijlpark, becauseI was from Vereeniging. He just all of a sudden - I didn't see him rush in frontof me. He moved to my side and I almost bumped him, and I knew what his intentionwas, so that he could get even also possibly with me, because I couldn't seeany other intention of him acting or behaving in that fashion. MR LYSTER Mr and Mrs Sesele, thank you very much forcoming and telling us what you have told us today. You have lost your daughter,your beloved daughter, who was only seven years old at the time of this incident.You lost her in tragic circumstances, and perhaps it is a more difficult thingto accept the death of one so young and so innocent. From what you have toldus it seems clear that she was killed by Mr Joe Mamasela, a man who, as youknow, has admitted killing people, beating people to death at the instructions of his employer, the Security Police, andthat also must make it more difficult for you to accept, to know that she diedat the hands of such a man. It's clear that you have both been very traumatised by thisincident, and we can arrange counselling. The Reparations and RehabilitationCommittee of the Truth Commission can arrange for you to see counsellors ifyou want to, so please, before you go, make sure that you have spoken to usif you would like to take up that opportunity. We are very sorry to hear that this incident caused the break-upof your marriage, and it must be of some comfort to you to be able to sit heretogether, giving each other support, as you tell us about this very tragic story. We will follow up the details about the court case that youhave given us and try and find out why the case resulted in an acquittal, andwe will convey those details to you. Thank you very much for coming in. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming in today, Mrs Tipe.Can you please put on the earpieces and please tell me whether you can hearmy voice? Are you able to hear me talking now? Are you able to hear me? MRS TIPE Yes, I hear you clearly, Sir. MR LYSTER Thank you very much. You have come to usfrom Kroonstad, and you have come to tell us about the death of your husband,Jacob Tipe, who was killed by the Three Million Gang. Before you give your storyplease could you stand up and take the oath. MARTHA TIPE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you very much, Mrs Tipe. I am goingto ask one of my colleagues, Mrs Virginia Gcabashe, to help you with your evidencenow. MRS GCABASHE Good morning, Mrs Tipe. Mrs Tipe, I knowthat you come from very far away in Mangaung. I know that the story that you'regoing to relate to us is very painful. That is the death of your partner, thepartner that you've lived with for so many years. Then this partner leaves youwhen you need him most, when you were expecting a lot. I want to thank you forthe courage to have come before this Commission to share your story with us,and to hear the truth of what took place. I'll ask you to take your time, buttry to give us some details as to what happened. You came here to tell us aboutyour husband. Before we hear about what happened just give us a brief backgroundabout your family - have you got children, where do you stay, are you working- so that we may have a picture as to how you live. (Pause) If you can't hearme well please do tell me that you can't hear me. (Pause) As I have already said we feel very sorry for whathappened to you, and we praise your courage for having come to this Commissionso that the truth may be revealed. Before we can even go forth and talk aboutwhat happened to your husband just give us a brief history of your family -where do you stay, where do you come from, do you have any children - so thatwhen we talk about your husband and what happened to him we have a clear pictureas to what type of a family you had. I shall request you to start there, givingus a brief ... (incomplete) --- I do have a family. They are staying in Kroonstad.My in-laws are also there. I have five children with the deceased. It's threeboys as well as two girls. The eldest of them had to leave school because ofthe lack of funds after his father had died. I wanted him to help me as faras finances were concerned, because my in-laws are not helping me in any way.When my husband died my in-laws turned against me, they chased me. He chasedme together with my children. I never had a place to stay. It is fine, Mrs Tipe. You can take your time. This is quitea painful experiences. We know how you feel, especially with the lack of supportfrom your in-laws. (Pause) --- Until now I am with the children. The eldestone is trying to look for work. The others are attending school. The girl isdoing standard seven and the boy is doing standard 10. I am still in hardshipsbecause I can't further their education. I do understand, Mrs Tipe. When you are ready you can tellus more about what happened up until your husband met with his untimely death.--- My husband went on a Friday. He had knocked off at half past four from work. He went to a shebeen. When he came back he got into my neighbour'shouse, Mr Ramahale. When he was still in there - I believe it was at about 12,I was already asleep with the children - we heard some noise outside. Afterthat noise - we heard the noise, but I couldn't go outside to investigate whatwas happening. Just after some time we were awoken by Mr Tsatsi. He woke meup. I asked him what was happening. I woke the children up to accompany me toinvestigate as to what was happening. When we got there we got a Three MillionGang. I saw him. He had been attacked by the Three Million Gang. When I triedto turn him the blood spurted on my face. I asked him what was happening buthe could not answer me. He was bleeding profusely. I tried to shake him to wakehim up. There was nobody to help me there. I was all by myself. I called ontomy children to come and help me. At that time he started kicking violently.Thereafter we decided to phone the police to come and take him. They took himto the hospital as he was kicking and gasping for breath. When we got to thehospital we were told that he had been stabbed several times and he had beenfatally wounded. I can hear, Mrs Tipe, this is a very traumatic experience.--- That was the end. I struggled to get funds to bury him. Now I am left withthe children and we are destitute. Are you through, Mrs Tipe? --- Yes, I am through. Thank you very much, Mrs Tipe. Let's just go back a littlebit to Mr Tipe. How old was he when he died? --- I am not sure how old he was,but I have got his birth certificate. It's in my handbag. Can you please show us after some time. I heard you sayingyou were chased by the in-laws and you were evicted. Where are you staying now?--- I am staying at No 389. I am leasing the property. I heard you talking about Three Million Gang. Can you pleasejust tell us briefly what is Three Million, because I am familiar with the name?Can you just please tell us briefly what sort of people were the Three Million?What were they doing? --- It was a group of people who were violating the community.It was a group of hooligans who were attacking people, and they got my husbandand stabbed him to death. What did the police do to them? --- A that time the policewere not present. They only came later on when the group had run away, whenthey were called to come and take Tipe where he had fallen. He was taken bya policeman by the name of Ndundu Nkire. He took him to hospital. The ThreeMillion Gang wasn't there any more. I do understand. According to your knowledge you said theywere violating people, attacking them. What were the police doing about this?--- The police were not there. They never came. They stabbed my husband untilthey finished him off and left. The police only came to fetch my husband becausewe phoned them. At the time of your husband's death do you know if he was affiliatedto nay political organisation? --- No. No, he didn't belong to any politicalgroup. On that particular night when this happened you told us thatit was 12. Was it 12 midnight? --- Yes, it was 12 midnight. Are there any events that took place in the location that indicate that there was some sort of violence before thisevent took place? --- No. When these people came as a group they got into myneighbour's house. They went straight to my neighbour's house. That's wherethey started attacking my husband, and they left thereafter. It seems as if you went to court. --- Yes, a few weeks afterhe had been buried I was called to room No 8 in court, but I did not understandas to whether it was attorneys who called me. They asked me whether I knew thepeople who had killed him. I told them that I didn't know anything because Iwas asleep. When I went there to the scene the people had already fled. Theyleft me alone until today. There were no further investigation whatsoever. Which court was this room No 8? Was it in Kroonstad? --- Yes,it was in Kroonstad. Did you get the death certificate? --- No, I never got anything.They just called me and I came back. You even buried him without having got the death certificate,or without knowing what had happened. --- No, we never got anything. Do you know or are you aware of any inquest that was done afteryour husband's death? --- No, I never got any letter. Are you working, Mrs Tipe? --- I am not working. I am a sicklyperson. I got violently ill after my husband's death. I am also very sick. Iget these terrible headaches. I am sickly. How old are you now? --- I am not getting any pension. Do you qualify for pension? --- No, I don't. I am still very young. I am 49. You lost your husband at a very early age. Who is helping youfinancially to further your children's education? --- I am being helped by myparents, who are in Hennenman. At some stage I was helped by the welfare officers.I am only getting money for the seven-year-old because she's the youngest. Theother one is 17, so I am no longer getting anything. I do understand that you are going through so much pain. Youtold us that your life, as well as your health, have deteriorated. Are you ableor can you afford to see a doctor? --- Yes, I went to see a doctor in Kroonstadtwice. He told me that I was having a heart problem, as well as a problem withvessels. Did he ever say you've got high blood? --- No, he never saidanything about high blood. I do understand. We'll try to help you in any which way wecan if you are in need, or you need to see doctors and get medical attention.You said your eldest son left school after your husband's death, but you saidhe is not working. --- No, he is not working, but he went to Henny to work there. When last did you see him? --- He left his job last year inFebruary. That's when ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 10) We cannot promise that we would do that for you because wedo not have the necessary authority, but we can pass our recommendations tothe President, who in turn will see what to do. MR LAX Mrs Tipe, just one little aspect I'd like totry and clear up if you can maybe help us. You mentioned the nameof a Mr Tsatsi, who came and knocked on your door and told you about what hadhappened to your husband, and called you to come. Who is Mr Tsatsi? --- Hissurname is Lusiya. He is our neighbour. (Inaudible) ... your neighbour. --- Yes, he is our neighbour. (Inaudible) ... at his house that your husband was stabbed?--- No, it's not at his house. He was also a visitor in that house. Where myhusband was killed is at Ramahale's place. Ramahale? --- Yes, Ramahale. Okay. You also mentioned to us that when you came out the ThreeMillion were still there, the people from the gang were still present, and theywere standing around. --- Yes. How did you know they were the Three Million? --- I saw theirknives and I saw their spears and I could realise they were the Three Million,because they didn't just pierce you with their spears, they would even chopyou with their pangas. So these were people that were known to operate in that wayin the area? --- Yes, that's correct, Sir. Thank you. We will try and follow up with these other peopleand see whether we can get any further information. Thank you, Chairperson. This has raised another question now from the last speaker.Is there any reason why, when you were asked in the Magistrate's Court whetheryou knew the killers, and you said you did not know them, yet you realised thatit was the Three Million who had killed this person? --- I wasscared. I didn't want to mention their name. I was very scared. You felt that they will come back and murder you? --- Yes,that's what I thought. Thank you. MR LYSTER Mrs Tipe, briefly. Do you know how long didthat gang operate in Kroonstad for? --- It's difficult to determine, but theyhave been existing for quite a long time. But I think they were working underground. And are they still existing? --- No, not at this moment, becauseif they were there we would never be free at all. If you feel that you want counselling or medical assistancewe will try to arrange for somebody in the Kroonstad area to assist you in that way, so if you want todo that please speak to one of the ladies who have been assisting you todayand tell them that you would like to take that opportunity. Thank you very, very much for coming in today. (Incomplete) ... from time to time. They used to come and fetchhim when there were going to be rallies and riots. They used to take Thabengand arrest him. Then when he comes back he usually comes back very tired, veryconfused and very traumatised, because he said the police were always assaultinghim. These things made me feel very bad. (Pause) I do understand as a parent too the feeling you are having.--- (Pause) We always had a problem with his father. There was no understandingbetween us. He always accused me and asked me why was his child being takenby the police regularly. He used to accuse me at all times. In 1990 it was ona Friday when he died. He was at work. He was killed by the Three Million gang.It was on the 1st. As from that day we had problems in the house. We had arguments,continuous arguments. He was buried. After his funeral there was absolutelyno life in the house. His father accused me of being the cause of the wholeevent. (Inaudible) ... was on the 1st of June 1990. You don't rememberthe time when your son was killed? --- It was at 6 o'clock on a Friday. (Inaudible) ... Million Gang killed your son? --- He used totell me that the Three Million Gang used to accused him of being active in theANC, he thought he was a better leader. What was to your knowledge the relationship between the ThreeMillion and the police, because you have just said that your son used to beharassed by the police, but this time he was not killed by the police, he waskilled by the Three Million? Do you think that there was any relationship betweenthe Three Million and the police? --- At that time I hadn't yet noticed whetherthe Three Million Gang and the police had any relationship. We only noticedthereafter, because the corpse was taken by the police the following day. Thenwe thought they would come and investigate and tell us as to when we were supposedto appear in court, but they never came. We were the ones who took the initiativeand went to the police station to tell them that it's the Three Million Gangthan killed my son, and we wanted to find out as to when the case was goingto be heard. Since then they have never come to us until today. (Inaudible) ... that when the police came the following day,and were kicking the corpse, they were celebrating the death of your son whichhad come through? --- I believe so, because they were always harassing him atall times, and they hated him. In 1986 they arrested him, they kept him in custodyfor the whole year. They refused us permission to see him. They didn't evenwant us to bring things for him. That's the time when we realised. (Inaudible) ... because a corpse is something which is verymuch respected. It means that the police themselves in the old South Africahad become really animals. It is the animals who could do such a thing to a corpse. Now, let me ask you another question. In your statementsomewhere you have mentioned the name of Madzela Georgie Ramasimongo. Can yousay any more about that person? --- I didn't understand the question. Is the name Madzela Georgie Ramasimongo familiar to you? ---Yes, I know this name. These were the leaders of the Three Million Gang. So he was a leader? --- Yes, he was the leader. Do you know where he is now? --- He was killed in Kroonstad. He was killed in Kroonstad by who? --- We don't know, becausewe only heard that he was shot in town. We never came to understand who killedhim. (Inaudible) ... the matter was reported, and then up to nownothing has happened. --- There's absolutely nothing that was done. In 1992,if I am not mistaken, there came policemen from Sasolburg. They took us andthey said they wanted to put back on roll the cases. They sat for about twoweeks investigating and asking us questions. They even asked us where the docketswere. But that's where the whole investigation ended. Nothing ever came of it.We don't know what happened to them. (Inaudible) ... death certificate about the death of your son?--- Yes, I did get the death certificate. (Inaudible) ... did get it. What do they say was the causeof the death? --- They told us that they were still going to investigate asto what the cause of death was. (Inaudible) ... you don't know. --- Yes, up to today I don'tknow anything. When we checked the statements we found that the death certificateswere identical, but they told us that they were still going to investigate.The details in the death certificates were similar in all the certificates. (Inaudible) ... they didn't say that he was stabbed. --- No,they never said anything. We saw it from the corpse, as well as the clothesthat my son was wearing. They indicated that he had been stabbed quite severaltimes. Where is your husband now? --- He is in Kroonstad. Are you still living together? --- We are staying together,but we don't talk to each other. He has absolutely no peace with my two childrenbecause they always accuse him of being the cause of the whole fracas. (Inaudible) ... as the Commissioners before have said thatwe know in your statement there are the things you have asked for that the TruthCommission could help you with. Our duty is to take these and pass them to theState President, and make some recommendations, and he is the one who makesthe final decision, and his Cabinet. We are very sorry about your situation.Thank you. --- I am always sick. Even yesterday I went to the doctor. I wastaken there by my brother. Even my husband doesn't care about my health. Heis always depressing me even more. MR LAX Mrs Xhoso, I've just got one or two questionsthat you might be able to help us to take the matter further. Firstly, how oldwas your son when he died? What was his date of birth if you know that? Youcan't hear me? Can you hear me now? --- Yes, I hear you, How old was your son when this happened to him, or what washis date of birth? --- He was born in 1966 in August. Thank you. Now, do you have any idea of the witnesses who mighthave seen what happened to your son? --- Yes, there are people who saw this,especially the one who used to work with him. He saw everything that happened. (Inaudible) --- Yes, we went to him to inquire. We asked himwhether was he prepared to be a witness, and he gave us his addresses and hisidentity documents. He gave us all his particulars. (Inaudible) --- Yes, I don't have them with me here. They arein Kroonstad. That will help us to follow up the case and maybe have it re-openedagain. Thank you, Chairperson. Mrs Xhoso, I am very concerned about you and your family. Youdid say that you have to see the doctors and get some medication. What's wrongwith you? --- My body is always aching. At times I feel like I am losing mymind. I am so forgetful. If I put something I never know where I put it. I alwaysgive things to my children to put away for me, because if I can put them I neverever remember where I had put them. (Inaudible) ... you are getting is it helping you? --- I amtaking treatment at the hospital, but it doesn't really help. There is anothertreatment that I get from a private doctor. I think that helps me a little bit. I also want to express to you that we don't want to forget about your sons, because they are part of the familyand they did lose a brother. How are your sons? Have you noticed anything thatshows that they were badly affected by this? --- They have been badly affected.The other one was doing standard nine, but he failed. He was also forgetful,he wasn't concentrating in class. He passed the following year. Even the last-born,he always used to talk about his brother and he would cry. When he was in gaolhe got a baby boy who was Nkosinathi. The second-born was born after he haddied. They are always talking about him. That's why I cannot bear it. It makesme not to forget him also, because whenever they see his photos they alwaysremind me of him. (Inaudible) ... two children? --- Yes, he has two children. Who is taking care of those children? --- I am taking careof these children. My sisters as well as my father help me with his pensionmoney. We will give you our support as much as we can, but I wouldlike you and your family to get some counselling, because I also think yourhusband was affected. --- Yes. Thank you very much. MR LAX Sorry, Mrs Xhoso, just one other question justfor the record. Implied in your story is the fact that your son was a memberof the ANC. What was his actual political affiliation, just so that you canhelp us there please? --- It seems as if this other organisation was a youthorganisation, but I am not sure as to the name of the organisation, but it wasa youth organisation. /MR LYSTER MR LYSTER Thank you, Mrs Xhoso, for coming in todayand speaking to us. Again we express our very deep sympathy to you. We havewatched you suffering here as you relive the memory of your child's death. Itmust be particularly hard for you to relive the memories of how he died, particularlyof how he was abused - his body was abused after he had died by police, whoshould have been there to give you support and sympathy. As Dr Magwaza has said, we believe that you should take theopportunity to get counselling. It's clear that you have been very traumatisedby the death of your child. And we will arrange for you to see somebody in thearea in which you live if you want to spend time talking to somebody about howyou feel. And, as Mr Lax has said, we will follow up on the inquest orthe court case to see what became of that, and why the people who were responsiblefor your son's death were not convicted. Again thank you for coming in to talk to us, and we wish youcourage and strength as you go. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming in today, Mrs Bosch.You've come from Selosesha township in Thaba Nchu, and you have come to talkto us about the death - sorry, about the detention, assault and torture of yourbrother, Raymond Siboto, at the hands of the police. MRS BOSCH Yes, that's true, Sir. MR LYSTER Before you give your evidence could you pleasestand and take the oath. NOMVUYO BOSCH (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you. Please take a seat. I am goingto ask my colleague, Mr Mdu Dlamini, to help you in giving your evidence today. MR DLAMINI (Inaudible) ... opportunity that you have accorded the Commissionto share the experiences that your brother, and yourself as the family, wentthrough. First, before you can tell us what happened, and how it happened, wouldyou firstly tell us about the family, the parents, as well as your brother,and also what we are interested in is that how is he now, and is he in hospitalor at home? So the family background first. --- My name is Mrs Bosch. I am theelder sister to Raymond Siboto. There's only the three of us at home. I am theeldest. At the moment the one who is after me is in hospital. He has suffereda stroke. He was staying between Thaba Nchu Sun and Tafes(?). Where he was stayinghe was staying with a little boy. His name was Gufuthi. The one who has suffered the stroke, are you referring to Bafane? --- Yes, I am referring to Bafane. And you also mentioned in your statement that Bafane has children.Can you tell us more about his own family now? Does he have a wife, and howold are the children, what are they doing, who is looking after them? --- Bafanewas married, he had a wife before. He has two children. He has been divorcedby his wife. (Inaudible) ... the children now, and how old are they? Arethey at school? --- The other one is staying with the mother. He is doing gradeA. The other one is staying with my mother. That is Bafane's mother. She isdoing standard four. Thank you. You may now proceed and tell us what happened onthis - in 1986 when your brother had to suffer the tortures and the injuries.--- He was arrested in 1986. I don't remember the month, whether it was Aprilor May, because he wasn't staying with me. The person who was staying with himcame to tell us that he had been arrested and taken by the police in Ladybrand,but even the Bophutatswana Police were involved. Then he said I should go andsee where he stays. I went there. The ceilings were torn apart and put downbecause he was suspected that he had kept guns in the ceilings. When this boycame to tell us that he had been arrested I went there to see. I discoveredthat the ceilings were torn down. He told me that the manner in which they hadassaulted him he doubted whether he was living or not. I went to look for himat the Bophutatswana Police quarters. They told me that they didn't know anything,they were not the ones who arrested him. We kept on searching for him without any success. We went to different prisons without anysuccess. One policeman told me, but he said we shouldn't tell anybody what hewas about to tell us because he would lose his job. We went to Ladybrand withthe policeman's wife. When we got to Ladybrand I asked as to whether there wasany person. The policemen there denied and told us that he was not there. Idon't remember the name of the policeman I spoke to. We waited there. They phoneda white policeman to come. When he got there he asked me what I was lookingfor there. I told him I was looking for my brother, the police in Bophutatswanahad told us that he is in Ladybrand. But the policemen in Bophutatswana hadnot told us that, I just believed that if I said it he would actually help me.He told me that he had no knowledge of such a person. After a moment he saidI should produce my identity document, and my brother's wife should take outher identity document. He asked us whether we were the ones who sent him tobe a communist. We denied, and we said we were just looking for him becauseit was three months now since he disappeared. As he was still holding my identitydocument he told me that he knows me very well. He said it in Afrikaans, andhe said, "I know you. I know where you are staying, you black." He said he couldarrest me. I asked him why would he arrest me. He told me that I was harbouringcommunists in my house. I told him that, "You are accusing me, and yet my brotheris not here. How can you accuse me if you say the person you - you didn't arrestthe person?" I said to him he can arrest me if he wanted. We argued until hethrew us with our identity documents and told us to leave the place. When wewere going out there was a policeman who was sitting at the securitygate. He looked more like a coloured. He told me that my brother is there inLadybrand, but he is not supposed to talk because he was going to lose his job.He told me that he had been severely assaulted and they won't show him to me.We went back home. I kept on pestering him and they kept on denying it. Sixmonths lapsed without us knowing the whereabouts of my brother. I kept on pesteringthe Bophutatswana Police to tell me where my brother was, and they denied knowinghis whereabouts. They told me they would not help me look for my brother, Imust do it on my own, because they were not the ones who arrested him. One daywe saw him coming. He had signs that indicated that he had been assaulted. Hehad scars. We asked him where he had been. He told me that he had always beenthere, and he had always been assaulted, and he further indicated that the policemenhad told him that we were looking for him. He was always taken regularly atnight to Kroonstad. They said he should reveal the whereabouts of other communistsfrom the ANC. They took him to Lesotho. He said at times along these travelsthey would assault him along the way to Kroonstad. At times they would takepliers, a pair of pliers, and they would squeeze his private parts, his penis,that he should speak the truth. He should also say if we as a family are involvedin this. On the first day that he arrived he started having fits. He was emittingsome white substance from - through his mouth, and he collapsed. We thoughtmaybe he was excited, he was relieved that he had arrived finally at home. Werealised that he had been mentally affected. He kept on having these attacks.The doctor said that there was a clot in his brain. He was taken for treatmentfor fits. He even had high blood pressure until he suffered a stroke. As I amspeaking now he can't do anything, he's a human cabbage. He can't speak properly.I had asked the hospital if I could not take him so that you can see him, butdue to his conditions I could not bring him with. His mother is 80 years oldthis year. She is staying with his children. She is a pensioner. She is goingthrough a lot of hardships. Does your brother get any disability grant? --- No. Has the application been lodged with the Department of Welfare?--- I went to apply for pension on his behalf, but he is still in hospital.They had given him a date for the 24th to come, because they said they wantedto take his fingerprints. So he is still in hospital so we are not able to doanything. (Inaudible) ... if they could assist by getting all the detailsfrom him in hospital, so that whilst he is in hospital the processing of theapplication is in place as well. --- No, we haven't been to the social workers. I would recommend that you go to the offices of the socialworkers. If there are any problems please let us know so that we can see whetherwe could assist you in expediting the application for a disability grant. Andanother question that I would like to ask. When he was still able to recollect,to remember everything that happened, did he mention any names of the peoplewho were torturing him? --- He only spoke now when he was very ill, when I wasasking him as to who the policemen were. He only told us about one person. Hesaid the name of the person is Janki Thulwa. He said he was a policeman in Ladybrand. And the police officer who was arguing with you when you werelooking for your brother, can you remember his name? --- I don't remember hisname, but I can identify him if I can see him. How old is your brother now? --- He is 36 years old. (Inaudible) ... you might not have the answer, but it strikesme that your brother is the third or fourth case of somebody who was workingfor Thaba Nchu Sun and was detained, tortured by the police. Is it a coincidence,or were Thaba Nchu Sun employees targeted as far as you know? --- I should thinkso, because at that time he was working at Thaba Nchu Sun. (Inaudible) ... suspect that the Security Forces were targetingat Thaba Nchu employees? --- Yes, I suspect so, because I met that policemanin Thaba Nchu Sun. After I had gone there to look for my brother I saw the policemanI argued with at Thaba Nchu Sun. Thank you very much, Mrs Bosch, for the concern you have showntowards your brother, and also helping us in the manner you have done, whichis very clear about what happened, and also the action you took to try and helpyour brother from the time he was detained. We have also noted your requestfor assistance with medical expenses, as well as the support of the children.I am sure the Chairman will refer to that when he summarises the case. May Inow hand over to the Chairman. MR LAX Mrs Bosch, there's just one or two aspects that you might be able to help us clarify. In your statement youspoke about your brother, Bafane, being returned or dropped off some two weeksafter you had been to Ladybrand Police Station, and in your evidence today you'vetold us that there were six months that elapsed after that time. Can you justclarify that for us please? --- I went on the same day that he was arrested.We went to check as to where he was. We went to many police stations then wedidn't get him. We took three months searching for him without getting any clueas to where he was. I think we didn't understand each other, that is the personI gave the statement to, because he was speaking another language and I wasspeaking another language, so there was some misunderstanding. (Inaudible) ... total he was detained for six months, is thatwhat you're telling us? --- Yes, it was six months. Thank you, Chairperson. DR MAGWAZA I have one more comment, Mrs Bosch, as Ihave said earlier that we don't want to forget the family and the children.You talked about the fact that your brother had two children. How old are they?--- The other one is eight years old, the other one is 14 years old. From your observation were they in any way affected by whathappened to their father, towards their father? --- They have been badly affected,because the boy is staying with his mother. My mother is 80 years old, and thelittle boy is the only one who can be helping my mother because he is 14 yearsold. He has even been affected as far as his education is concerned. He was supposedto have been in standard six or seven by now, but he's only in standard four.I would have desired to take him to psychiatrists so that he can undergo sometests. I could see that he was badly affected. At his age there's some deficiencythat we notice. Other children who are the same age as him are in higher standards,whereas he's still in a lower standard. Thank you very much. We'll take that one into consideration.Thanks. --- Even the younger one is affected. She has got the same problem asher brother. She behaves basically in the same manner. She's also behind withher schooling. She has been mentally affected. Bafane was always having theseepileptic fit attacks until such time that he got divorced from his wife. Shefelt that she couldn't take it any more. I thank you. MR LYSTER Mrs Bosch, like many other people your familyhas suffered tragically at the hands of people who were there to - who shouldhave been there to protect and support you, the police. Although with the changein our political situation in this country the police are now playing a constructiveand positive role in most parts of our country, it will still take many yearsfor some people to see them as our protectors, rather than our persecutors.There seems to be no doubt that they have destroyed your brother's life, andthis in turn has placed a heavy burden on you and your family. We have noted your requests for assistance and compensation.As you will know by now the Commission cannot order compensation to be paid to people, but, havinglistened to the situation that your brother and his children are in, we willcertainly take those recommendations to the State President on your behalf.I am sure your brother must be glad and proud that you are able to come hereand speak on his behalf today. Thank you very much for coming in, and we wish you well. Thankyou. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming in today, Mrs Phole.Can you hear me? You've put the earphones on, and you can hear me well enough?Thank you very much. You have come today from Botshabelo township to tell usthe story of how you were shot by the police in February 1990 in Bloemfontein.Before you give your evidence can you stand up please and take the oath? MALEFU MIRIAM PHOLE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER I will be assisting you today with your evidence.Can you just tell us briefly where do you live? --- I stay in Botshabelo inthe F Section. (Inaudible) ... something about your personal circumstances.Are you working, are you married, do you have children? --- I stay in Botshabeloin Section F5. I have got two brothers. I have one child and I am married. Athome we are five. There are three boys and two girls. I have one child. I ammarried. Thank you, Mrs Phole. Will you tell us now what happened toyou on 15 February 1990. Tell us briefly what you were doing at the time andwhat happened to you on that day, what were you engaged in on that day. ---At that time I wasn't working, I was still attending school. We were comingfrom Bloemfontein Court. Botshabelo was still under Qwaqwa. It was the day thatthey were staging a coup against Mopeli. When we got to the cross between Botshabeloand Bloemfontein there were police. They were administering tear gas to disperseus, and we ran away. As we were still running away we saw a Casspir coming andwe saw some shots coming from the Casspir. I ran into another house. As I wasrunning into that house I was shot. Thereafter they took us to the A Section at the hospital.The police were at the hospital and they were busy arresting people who hadbeen shot. They left me there. I was shot at the K Section in Botshabelo, becausewhen we came back they were already shooting. Then we tried to run for cover. And where on your body were you shot? --- They shot me in theeye. And we can see that you have lost your eye as a result of thatshooting, is that right? --- Yes, it is true, I lost my eye. Now, on that day were you - can you just explain was therea march? Were you taking part in a march? I think you said that in your statement.Is that right? --- Yes, I was present. Who was marching? What organisation was that? --- It was theANC organisation. And had you planned a march from Botshabelo to - where wereyou going? --- We were heading for Bloemfontein. And the purpose of the march, if you recall that? --- We werestaging a coup against Mopeli and we were heading for the court. Now, I think you have given us details of your medical documents.You were admitted at Philonomi Hospital, is that right? --- Yes. Was there any court case of any sort which followed this shooting?--- No, we never went to the police, because whenever you tried to open up acase against the police you would be arrested. (Inaudible) ... people, if you can remember, were injured in the same incident, injured on that day? --- Therewere many people, but I was taken with another girl. (Inaudible) ... recall the people who shot at you? Were theypolicemen, were they soldiers, were they from the Defence Force? Who were they?--- It was policemen. Which police were those? --- I am not very sure of where thepolice came from. (Inaudible) ... they were Bophutatswana Police or South AfricanPolice. --- It was South African Police. You said in your evidence a few minutes ago that you were goingto stage a coup. Were you in fact marching to Bloemfontein in protest? Whatwas the real purpose of the march? --- Yes, we were against the incorporationof Botshabelo into Qwaqwa. Was that the purpose of the march, that you were protestingagainst Botshabelo township being incorporated into the Qwaqwa homeland? ---Yes, that's true. I am going to give my fellow Commissioners and Committee Membersan opportunity to ask some questions if they'd like to. In your statement you are asking the TRC to investigate this,and also to compensate you. What type of compensation are you thinking of? ---I am not able to work. I went to look for work, then they told me that I couldn'twork because I couldn't see with both my eyes. There are these days these things which are called artificialeyes. You never thought about that when you were thinking about the compensation?--- My father once took me and he showed the papers to his bosses to try and get me some work, but they lost those papers. I say most of the people who have lost the eyes they do getthe artificial eyes put in them. You have never thought about that yourself?--- I would love to have that sort of eye, an artificial eye. MR LAX Mrs Phole, what is your age please, just forthe record? --- I am 21 years old. I just want to follow up on where your march was going. Yousay you were marching to the Bloemfontein Court. What was happening at the court?--- They were going to stage a coup against Mopeli. MR LYSTER Mrs Phole, thank you very much for comingin today. What's tragic about your case is that you are sitting here in frontof us having been injured, lost an eye, for taking part in a protest that wouldhave been perfectly legal today. And only six years ago it was regarded as soillegal, the State was so threatened by such an action, that they set armedsoldiers against people making a legitimate protest. It seems that you wereprobably only 15 or 16 at the time of this incident, and it's a tragic thingthat the Government should have seen fit to unleash armed soldiers against childrenlike that. You will have heard me say earlier on that the Commission doesnot have the power to award compensation to people like yourselves, but certainlyit will be part of our recommendations to the State President to ensure thatpeople like yourself are properly taken care of, the injuries are properly takencare of. So thank you again for coming to us today and sharing yourstory with us, and we wish you strength. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER Thank you, Mrs Gyeswe, for coming in. Pleaseput the earphones on and tell me whether you can hear me. Are you able to hearme talking now? MRS GYESWE Yes, I can hear you. MR LYSTER Thank you. Like so many other people youhave come to tell about the death of a child, of your child, who died in 1992in Bloemfontein in very, very sad and tragic circumstances. Before I ask youto tell that story please will you stand up and take the oath. MRS GYESWE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you. I am going to ask my colleague,Mr Ilan Lax, to help you in giving your evidence today. Mr Lax. MR LAX Good afternoon, Mrs Gyeswe. Welcome. --- Goodafternoon, Sir. Before I ask you to tell us about this terrible story thatyou have to tell us can you tell us a little bit about your family. How manychildren do you have, are you married? --- I am staying at Selosesha, RapulaniStreet. I don't have a husband. I separated with my husband. I have four children.He was working at Smart Centre. He was 28 years old. Was your - your son, was he married at all, did he have anychildren? --- He wasn't married, he didn't have any children. Can you then tell us about the tragic events that happenedon the 10th of July 1992? --- On the 10th in 1992 my son had gone to work. Itwas on a Friday. He was working at Smart Centre. It was on a Friday. I am notsure about the date. When he knocked off he didn't go straight home until sunset. We slept without him arriving home.The following morning it was on a Saturday. In the morning his friend came toask me whether I had seen Thoboko. I told him I hadn't seen Thoboko. I was shocked,because I thought he had been to his friends and he would come back, and thenI told him that he told me that he would go away with work. His friend's surnameis ... (incomplete) (Pause) (Inaudible) ... time. We do understand. His friend surnameis Thapedi, but I have forgotten his name, but the surname is Thapedi. Thank you. --- Yes, that's Mogetsi Thapedi. Mogetsi left becausehe was schooling in Durban. He was just on holidays. He left me, he didn't sayanything. It was now a Saturday just toward sunset. At about 5 o'clock I wentto my next-door neighbour's. I said, "Can we please call the hospital and findout. He might be in the hospital." We called the hospital and they couldn'tfind him, and then we called the police station and we were told he is not there.It was a Saturday. On Sunday morning - on Monday, still puzzled about his whereabouts,I went to another boy called Spaceman Moroka. I asked him, "Spaceman, what happenedto Thoboko? I haven't seen him." Spaceman was also puzzled. He said, "What havethe whites done to Thoboko?" We searched for him for a few days. He disappearedon the 10th of July. We continually searched for him, and a friend of mine said,"Let us call Botshabelo Hospital." We called the police station at Botshabelo.They said, "We have a corpse here in our mortuary. We don't know the identityof this person, we just picked him up." We said to them, "Tell us his /"clothes." clothes." We searched his belongings and we discovered thathis shirt was not there, and then his pair of trousers was not there. We toldthe police at Botshabelo the clothes that were missing, and they said - theykept quiet for a minute, and I said to my brother's wife she should go to Botshabeloand find out what happened. They didn't want to tell me on the telephone. Whenshe got to Botshabelo they discovered that it was Thoboko, he was in the mortuary.His head was disfigured, he didn't have an eye. They came back to me and theywanted to tell me the news. Even if they could tell me the story they were alreadycrying, and they told me that Thoboko was dead and they found him at BotshabeloMortuary. Immediately I was taken to the hospital to be admitted. We found himon the 27th of July. We buried him on the 27th of July. I wanted to find outwill I be released to attend his funeral. The doctor said, "No, no problem,we'll give you a permission to go and bury him, and then after the funeral youcome back to the hospital." On the 27th it was a Saturday. We went to bury him.It wasn't a smooth funeral. The Bophutatswana Police were shooting at the oldpeople with tear gas, people were running, and they said the corpse should goback. We were on our way to the cemetery. We didn't go back, we forced out waythrough to the cemetery. Then we were told that the minister should conductthe ceremony very fast so that we can disperse. We buried him and we went backhome. And I asked, "Who actually did this?" and then I was told, "Three white- three policeman, white of them, did this." Seemingly Thoboko and his friendswere looking for a place where there was a party, and they couldn't find theplace. Unfortunately they knocked at the white man's house. It wasPiet Buys, Hendrick Myburgh and Johnny Grant. They took him in to the truck,they took him to Botshabelo, and that's where they assaulted him and killedhim. They even burnt his bank book. (Inaudible) --- Yes, that's the part I remember. I can't rememberthe rest because I was at the hospital. After the funeral the police came andthey said to me I should go to Botshabelo, there was going to be a court hearing.They didn't come to fetch me. Then when we arrived in Botshabelo there was nocase and I went back to Thaba Nchu. I've forgotten the date, but other policemencame to me and they told me that I should go to the Thaba Nchu Police Station.I will find a kombi there, and then they will drive me to Bloemfontein, therewas going to be a court hearing. They said it was going to be at the SupremeCourt. We came to Bloemfontein. Nothing took place. We went back home. And theykept on picking me up for court cases for the hearings, but nothing would takeplace and I would be taken back home. I only read in the newspaper that thecase was finalised, and I have been in that kind of a situation not knowinganything until today. Mr Buys, Petrus Cornelius Buys, was sentenced to nine yearsfor the murder of your son, and in 1995 he was given what is called correctionalsupervision. Part of his sentence was changed to correctional supervision, whichmeans he was allowed to come out of gaol, but subject to certain very strongconditions. As far as we are aware the other two were acquitted. Was your soninvolved in any political activities of any kind? --- I didn't know becaue Iwouldn't be with him every time, but the Saturday his coffin was held high up, and then that'swhere I realised he must have been belonging to any party. (Inaudible) ... or he must not have been? I am not quite clear.--- I have never seen him with my eyes, because every time I would be at home,but his coffin was held high above, and it was my first time to see that. Did you think that that meant there was some political connectionin the way he was being buried? --- Yes. They were singing, and the police startedassaulting them and telling them they are not allowed to do that. Thank you. I have no further questions, Chairperson. Just one question or two. You say that during the time whenyou spoke to Spaceman Moroka his remark was, "What have the whites done to Thoboko?"What was happening? Was it very common that the whites were attacking blackpeople? --- I would say yes, the whites were attacking the blacks, because Thobokowanted to inquire about the whereabouts of the party, and they saw these whitemen following them. And then the other one managed to run away, and he wentto the party and he told the others that Thoboko had been chased by the whitepeople. They went to different police stations to find him, but they couldn't.Then Spaceman said, "What have the whites done to Thoboko?" Were there any other incidents when the whites in your areahad attacked some of these blacks? --- Yes, I would say it was the tendency,because things were not nice for us in Bophutatswana. The whites didn't wantany black people in town. Is it correct that they ran over his body in a bakkie? ---I read in the newspaper. I only read in the newspaper that they drove over hisbody. I still have that article even today. Thank you. The last question, you said that the minister whoburied him was instructed to be very quick by the police. Do you remember thename of that minister? --- The police said he should quickly conduct the sermon.They were already facing their guns towards the people. (Inaudible) ... name of the minister was doing the burial,who was conducting the funeral? --- I've forgot his name, but he is the ministerfrom the Roman Catholic Church in Thaba Nchu. (Inaudible) ... he lives? --- Yes, I know where he stays. (Inaudible) ... for full particulars you could get us fullparticulars? --- I don't know whether shall I get the particulars from him,because I was confused. They were pushing us. They said, "Minister, come on,be fast." I mean if you could get the particulars about where he is andwhat his name is. Do you think that you could assist us about that? Anyway,if you cannot we can make investigations about what his name was. Thank you.--- I won't be able to help you, Sir. Thank you. Mama, I am quite concerned about your health. You mentionedthat just before the funeral of your son you were in hospital. Can you tellus more? Why were you admitted in hospital? What was wrong with you? What happened?--- It was high blood pressure and my chest. My whole body was sore, and theytold me that I had a high blood pressure. (Inaudible) ... had it before? --- Yes, but I was under thetreatment. How is your health now? --- I still suffer from high bloodpressure. I am living on medication. Who is paying for your medication? --- I have a girl calledElizabeth Gyeswe. She works at Cheapermans, and she is the only one working Right. We would like you to provide us with your records, andwe do hope that we can offer some help to you regarding your health. Thank youvery much. MR LYSTER Mrs Gyeswe, we have all been shocked to hearabout what happened to your son, and we can only imagine how sad it must befor you to live with this memory. It was the system of apartheid which killedyour son. The people or the person that killed your son was raised in such away, he was raised in an environment in which racism was an accepted part ofour national life, and it was this way of life, this environment, which poisonedtheir minds, or poisoned his mind to such an extent that he could commit sucha horrifying act - to take an innocent person and to assault him, and then tokill him in the way that he did, and we express our deep sympathy to you. You have heard Dr Magwaza say that if you wish to get furtherassistance from the Commission for your health we will be able to do that, andwe would like you to speak to one of the staff members before you go today. We thank you again very much for coming in and sharing yoursad story with us, and we wish you every strength. Thank you. MR LYSTER We apologise for the delay. The witness whois coming to the stage has an artificial limb and he is taking some time toget to his seat. While we are waiting I would like to announce that we havea small sub office her in Bloemfontein. It's situated in the Stabilitas Building,which is in Maitland Street, right opposite the OK Bazaars, and that officewill be open from now onwards for the whole of this year, next year as well.If there are people in this area, Bloemfontein, Botshabelo, Thaba Nchu, whowant to make statements, please go to that office and speak to Mr Pitso or theReverend Bosman, and they will assist you. And if there are many more peoplefrom this area who wish to appear at public hearings like this one it is certainlypossible that we would have a further hearing here in Bloemfontein. That isaside from the hearings that we intend to hold in other parts of the Free State,such as Harrismith and Welkom. Thank you Mr Mohlahle. You have come here today from Qwaqwa,and you have come to tell us about a bomb blast in which you were involved in1990. Before you tell your story I'd like you please to stand, or if it's difficultfor you to stand please take the oath as you sit there. MR MOHLAHLE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you very much. I am going to ask oneof my colleagues, Mrs Gcabashe, to assist you now in giving your evidence. MR GCABASHE Good afternoon, Mr Mohlahle. How are you?Let me start by thanking you that you've come from Qwaqwa to come to this Commissionand explain to us what happened to you. I want to sympathise with you for what happened withyou and the injuries that you sustained. Will you please tell us about yourfamily background? Tell me how old you are? --- I was born in 1961, July. Thank you. I will request you to just give us a brief familybackground. Are you married, do you have any children, do you still have parents?--- We are eight at home. I am married. I have a mother. My father passed away. Are these your sisters and brothers? --- Yes, they are my sistersand brothers. Do you have any children? --- No, I don't. Do you have a wife? --- Yes, I do. Are you working? --- No, I am not working. Thank you, Mr Mohlahle, for relating this very painful story.Before I ask those questions, in your statement you have written that you arestaying at a certain police station. Can you please explain as to why youare staying at a police station? --- My explanation - I never said that I wasstaying at the police station. I said I was always going to the police stationregularly, and they were refusing to take my statement. Where do you stay now? --- I stay in Qwaqwa. Is that not a police station? --- No. I gave the ... (incomplete- end of Side B, Tape 11) You said there was an explosion where you were. Did you everget any clue as to who planted the bomb? --- I never knew who had done that.I heard some rumours that the bomb was planted by white men, but they were neverfound. You also said there are other people who came to you. Do youstill remember who these people are, when you were in hospital? --- Yes, I do. Please give us their names. --- It was Stefan. What's his surname? --- Mohlahle. What is he to you? --- He's my uncle. With who was he? --- He was with Julius Mohlahle. What relation is Julius to you? --- He is also my uncle. You went on to say certain people refused to take a statementfrom you. Who are these people? --- It's the people who said they were handlingmy case, so I should go to them after being discharged. They were in Krugersdorp. Were they policemen or ... (incomplete) --- Yes, it was policemen. Do you remember any one of them? --- I think I remember oneblack person who came with them. I don't remember the other ones. Do you know their names? --- No. You were amputated after your injuries. When were you amputated?--- I was amputated in July. If I remember well it could have been the 15thor the 16th, even the 17th. I don't remember quite well. In your statement there's where you allege that it was a hotelfrequented by black people. Is that so? --- Yes, it is so. Can you remember whether during the time of the bomb explosionis there any specific thing that you can remember that relates to this explosion?--- I don't understand your question. Let me just rephrase it. In your statement there's where yousay it was a time when the political parties were unbanned. Do you still rememberthat? You said it in your statement? --- No, I did not. But do you remember? --- Yes, I do remember. I will just remind you that there is something of that sortin your statement. At which hospital were you amputated? --- It was HillbrowHospital - Hillbrow Hospital in Johannesburg. They call it General Hospital. Just tell me about your work now. What company were you workingfor? --- I was working for a mine. What was the name of that mine? --- It was Durban Deep in Roodepoort. You went to the Roodepoort Hospital? --- Yes. What were you doing there? --- I was driving what they calla winch at the mines. You said they told you that your services had been terminated.--- Yes. According to your knowledge or ability could you have beenable to continue doing that job? --- I wouldn't have been able. What did the mine give you when you were told that your serviceswere terminated? --- I was given an amount of R1 620,00. Did you report your case thereafter? --- I went to report thecase. Do you remember who the investigating officer was? --- Yes,I do remember. What was his name? --- His name was Gaga. You spoke about an investigating officer whose name is ChrisDodden. Do you still remember him? --- If I remember well I think Johannesburgwas the one that was handling the case. Were you ever given the case number, or were you told as tohow the case was finalised? --- He phoned them to come. They asked me who wasphoning them. I told them that it's the person who was taking my statement.I requested the case number. Besides being amputated are you suffering from any other illnessesor ailments that you think could be attributed to being injured in a bomb explosion? --- Yes, thereare. Just tell us about those ailments. --- On my left hand, inthe ankle. My ankle was broken and my whole side was burnt. The other foot withwhich I use to balance is the one that troubles me most because it carries somuch weight. Are you getting any treatment from anywhere? --- Yes, I amtaking treatment from the hospital, at Manapo Hospital. Where is that hospital? --- It's in Qwaqwa. Who is paying for your medical expenses? --- It's the Government. I understand you, Mr Mohlahle. I feel very bad that after havingworked for a period of 12 years that you emerged out of the whole situationpenniless. I hope that's where I will end. I still repeat that we really feelfor you. We really sympathise with you for what happened to you. MR LAX Do you know what happened to the other people who were in thathotel with you that day? --- Yes, I know what happened to them. Can you tell us please. --- One died, according to the informationthat I got when they came to see me at the hospital. One of them had a brokenleg, the other one sustained a broken hand or arm, the other one just got injured.That's how it happened. So as far as you know there were five people affected by this bomb to the extent that you're aware. ---Yes, according to my knowledge I know of only five who got injured. You spoke about these policemen who came to see you who saidyou should come and make a statement, and then when you went to see them totry and give them a statement they simply refused to take that statement. Wherewere those policemen when you went to see them? --- Those police were all there. Where's there? What place is that? --- They were at the KrugersdorpPolice Station. These policemen, were they white policemen or black policemen,or both? --- It was white policemen as well as one black. How many did you speak to altogether? --- If I remember quitewell I spoke to four policemen. (Inaudible) ... three white people and one black person? ---Let me just correct myself. There were four white policemen and one black policemen. Now, you said that you then went to see some other people whothen made some phone calls for you. Who were those other people? Was that alawyers' organisation, or some assistance centre or something like that? ---I think it was the attorneys, Legal Aid attorneys. (Inaudible) ... we do have a letter from the Legal ResourceCentre that was attached to your papers. Would that be the place? --- Yes, Ido know about that letter. And then in response to those telephone calls and those lettersthe police then did take your statement. --- They took my statement thereafter. But to date you've heard nothing about a case? --- Absolutelynothing. Thank you. We will try and see if we can follow that up foryou. Mr Mohlahle, you said that the hotel where you were injuredwas frequented mostly by blacks. Who is the owner of this hotel? --- I don'tknow who the owner is. I tried to ask who the owner was. They didn't want togive me his name. They said he said he didn't care whether we were injured,he was not involved. So you don't know whether the owner is black or white. ---I think it was a white person. How much damage was done to the hotel? --- There was greatdamage, windows were broken, but by the time i came out of the hospital it wasalready renovated. People who worked there said the insurance had funded therebuilding. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mohlahle, I am just interested inthe condition of your two uncles who were together with you. I think you mentionedin your statement that you had Stefan and Julius who are both your uncles. Howare they now? Where are they? --- Only Julius is there. When you say only Julius is there, I think you mentioned twopeople, Stefan and Julius, and what happened to Stefan? --- Stefanus is at work. MR LAX Sorry, just one last question, Mr Mohlahle. What was the name of the hotel if you can remember? --- Itwas Roodepoort Hotel. MR LYSTER Mr Mohlahle, thank you for coming in todayto tell us your story. What happened to you on that day in Roodepoort has changedyour life completely. You were sitting enjoying the company of your relativesand friends and a bomb was detonated, and, as I have said, it changed your lifeforever. Like the people who took the life of Mrs Gyeswe's son, thepeople who planted that bomb were raised by and in a system, a political system,which made them so afraid of their fellow South Africans that they were drivento do what they did - placing a bomb in a hotel, killing and injuring innocentpeople. As you have probably heard me say earlier today to other peoplewho've come and given evidence, that we don't have the power to compensate youimmediately, but we can make recommendations to the State President on yourbehalf concerning steps that should be taken to assist people like yourself,and I have very little doubt that people like yourself, who have been injuredin the manner that you have described to us, will receive assistance from thePresident's Fund. Before you go I'd like you to make absolutely sure that thecontact address that you have given us is a proper and reliable address at whichwe can contact you, so that you can be assured that we will contact you andthat you will receive correspondence from us. Again thank you very much for coming in today, and we wishyou everything of the best as you go home. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming in today, Mr Matselane.Please will you assist her with the earphones. Can you hear me, Mrs Matselane?Can you hear me well enough. MRS MATSELANE I hear you perfectly well, Sir. MR LYSTER Thank you. You have come from Bohlokong townshipin Bethlehem to tell us about the shooting of your daughter in 1990 by the SouthAfrican Police. MRS MATSELANE Yes, that's correct, Sir. MR LYSTER Before you give your evidence can you pleasestand up and take the oath? MAYSIE MATSELANE (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you. I am going to ask my fellow Commissioner,Dr Mgojo, to assist you in giving your evidence today. DR MGOJO I greet you, Mrs Matselane ... (inaudible)... caused you much pain, this experience which you had about the death of yourdaughter. About the crippling of your daughter, I am sorry. Your daughter isSithekile Hadebe. Can you explain, because your name is Matselane but the daughteris Hadebe? --- I was married to Hadebe. Matselane is where I was born. It'smy maiden surname. I had sent my daughter to Loso. She went to Loso. (Inaudible) ... Mama. Just give us more about the backgroundof the family. You say that you were married to Hadebe and then you went backhome. What really happened? --- I separated with my husband. I have six children,three boys and three girls. We separated with my husband a long time ago. (Inaudible) --- Yes, he is still alive. Thank you. So can you tell us about what happened on the 29th of January 1990? --- On the 20th of January I sentmy child to Loso. She went to Loso. Until sunset she didn't return. I woke upand went to work. When I returned from work I was told that there were certainchildren who were shot and they had died. I went to the police station to seeif my child is one of the dead children. I was told three children had died,one had gone to Bloemfontein. The following morning I went to the hospital toinvestigate. They told me that the one who had been shot in the eye is in Bloemfontein.I devised some means to see what help I could offer my child. My boss phonedthe hospital at which my child was admitted. We managed to trace her. At Bloemfonteinthey told me I should come to see my daughter because she was going to undergoan operation. We went to Bloemfontein. I signed some papers for her to undergothe operation, then I came back. When I got home she came back quite some timethereafter. They gave her a letter that she should go to Bloemfontein for treatment.My boss said she should not go to Bloemfontein any more, but she should receiveher treatment at Bohlokong Hospital. Where were you working? Are you working now? --- Yes, I amworking. Are you still working where you were working when your daughterwas crippled? --- Yes, I am still working at the same place. What is your work? --- I am a domestic worker. Do you know the name of your boss? --- Yes, I do know the nameof my boss. Is it true that when your son was shot by the police - I meanyour daughter was shot by the police she became crippled and lost an eye? --- Yes. She has got only one eye. (Inaudible) ... explain to us how she was crippled? --- AsI have already said she had been shot. She underwent an operation. I don't knowwhether the bullet came through the eye or through the stomach, because apparentlyshe had been shot in the stomach. (Inaudible) ... when this happened where? --- She was 20 yearsold. What was she doing? --- She was attending school. Do you know what class? --- She was doing standard nine. Was the matter reported to the police, or to any police station?--- When she came back from the hospital we were visited by a reverend as wellas another lady. This lady works for an attorney. I don't know who the thirdperson was. They said I should go to see a lawyer. I went where they had toldme to go. The attorney told me that I should pay him an out front fee of R5000,00. (Inaudible) --- It was du Plessis. So he wanted a sum of R5 000,00 before he could attend to thiscase? --- Yes. I said to him if he could handle my case I would pay him as soonas the matter was finalised. (Inaudible) --- No, he never took the case. This name of Morodi, do you know him? --- It's Reverend Mavundla. Do you know the name of the ... (inaudible) ... church wherehe is a minister? --- It's Wessel Methodist Church. Yes, that's Mavundla. And do you know where he stays if he were to be contacted?--- He is not in Bethlehem at the present moment. He moved. How many children do you have, Mama? --- I have six children,three girls and three boys. Do they go to school? --- One is working. The two have goneto their father's place. The other one is not working. One is attending school.The one who was shot only finished school last year. (Inaudible) ... responsible for their education, all of them?--- Yes, I am the one who is responsible. Just one more question. Is there any person who saw the policewhen they were shooting your daughter? --- The one she was walking with died.I can't remember quite well the other one. The other one is Disebo, Disebo Besa. (Inaudible) --- No, she was not injured. Where is she now? --- She is not around. You don't know where she might have gone to? --- She is inBethlehem. Well, thank you. Maybe she might be the one who could be investigatedto give us the true story of what really happened if she was there. I thinkthe Truth Commission will try to see if they cannot get hold of her to get thefull story about this. So, Mama, if you were to ask the Commission to do somethingfor you what would you expect the Commission to do for you? --- I would likethe Commission to assist me in claiming for my child's injuries. Do you mean ... (intervention) --- I arranged that she shouldhave an artificial eye. (Inaudible) ... artificial eye. Thank you. I hand you overto the Chairperson now. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Mrs Matselane, thisplace Loso that you say you sent your daughter to. What is that place? Is ita town, is it ... (intervention) --- It's a township. It's the name of the township,Loso. Is that place near Bohotlong township where you live? Bohlokong- sorry - township where you live. Did you not hear the question? --- Yes, Iunderstood the question. Sorry, we can't hear anything. INTERPRETER She said yes. She said yes. MR LAX Oh, you've said yes, okay. Do you have any ideaabout what the circumstances in Loso were so that there were police shootingon the streets that day? --- I don't know because I was at home. Whether thepolice were shooting at random, or whether there was some commotion going on,I don't know. It was quite far from my place. You haven't been able to find out from anyone else? --- Therewere children singing in the streets. They were chanting. (Inaudible) ... amongst those children that were singing inthe streets? --- I really don't know, because that's where she got injured. (Inaudible) ... what she was doing there. --- She told me thatshe was on her way back home. On her way back she got shot. Now, was your daughter ever involved in political activities?Was she a member of a political party perhaps, or a students' organisation? --- No. And you've never heard anything further in terms of cases orinvestigations about the follow up to this incident, about what happened tothe other children and so on? --- There was a case. There were certain Indianswho were always going to this case who were from Johannesburg. Each time wewould get in there and then they would just tell us that the case has been finalised. (Inaudible) ... were they lawyers, or who were they? --- Yes,they were attorneys. You don't remember any of the names by any chance, do you?--- No, I don't remember any of the names. (Inaudible) ... question. This person who was walking withyour daughter when she was shot, who has survived, Disebo Besa that you spokeof. Does her family live in the same township as you? --- Yes. Would it be possible for you to give us their details so thatwe can try and follow up? --- Yes. Thank you very much. No further questions, Chairperson. What's your surname? --- It's Matselane. Matselane. Thank you. Mama Matselane, we would like to help as much aspossible. We would like to know the state of your daughter now, because youhave said she is crippled and that's causing a bit of a concern to us. Whatdoes she do now? Can she work, can she help at home, can she take care of herself?--- Yes, she is able. Does she go to school? --- She matriculated last year. Is there anything at the moment which is causing some difficultiesin her life? --- No. Thank you very much, Mama. MR LYSTER Mrs Matselane, you have been very patient,waiting all day to give your evidence, and we thank you for that and for comingall the way in from Bohlokong in Bethlehem. As you know, probably better thana lot of us, the police in those days were - very often behaved in the recklessand violent way that you have described, where they could just shoot peoplein the street, and your daughter was a victim of the system that permitted thatsort of behaviour to take place. As you know, and as you have probably heard me say, we cannotassist you immediately with compensation, but we will take your story and conveythat story to the State President, and we will recommend to him steps that heshould put into place to assist people like your daughter, and we feel surethat steps will be put in place to assist people like her. So thank you again for coming in to be with us today, and wewish you every strength as you go home. Thank you very much. MR LYSTER Thank you for coming in, Mr Thayisi. Canyou please tell me whether you can hear me through the earphones, you can hearme well enough? Thank you very much. You've come to us today from Mokwena villagein Thaba Nchu, and you've come to tell us a story about assault and tortureby the police which took place in 1990, in August 1990. Before you give thatevidence I am gioing to ask you to stand to take the oath. WILLIAM THAYISI (Sworn, States) MR LYSTER Thank you. And now I am going to ask my colleague,Dr Magwaza, to assist you as you give your evidence. DR MAGWAZA Mokama, you are here today because you wantto share with us your suffering, and you want some justice to be done. We arehere to listen to you and support you throughout. Could you start by tellingus more about yourself. How old were you at that time? Were you at school, wereyou involved in politics? --- I was 19 years old when this happened. I was attendingschool at Direko. In 1990 our schools were closed. I was not affiliated to anypolitical organisation. (Inaudible) --- I was in standard eight. Tell us about what happened on that day. --- We were from NalethiSun(?). It was myself and my three friends. When we were in Nalethi Sun we metother people, our neighbours. When we left we left together with my friend,as well as the fourth one. We were with another gentleman who is staying oppositemy place. We went when the disco closed during the night. When we got at thegate in Nalethi Sun we were accosted by two policemen in a police van. They asked us where we were off to. They saidwe should get into the van. One of them opened up the van and they said we shouldget into the back of the van. The others were put at the front. We were goingto Mokwena. We went to another police station in town. The van got into theyard. Two policemen got off the van. They left us in the van. They came backwith some sjamboks. They opened the door of the van. They also opened for thethree girls who were at the front of the van. They started assaulting us. Westarted running. We were scattered as we were running. There was a new roadthat was being erected that was under construction. They accosted me and theytook me and put me inside the van. They took me for about 30 minutes. When theyarrested me there was a gentleman who was knocking off from his duty. They tookhim together with me. They drove for quite some distance. We didn't see wherewe were going to. We went to the police station. They took us into the chargeoffice. Only one got into the charge office with us, the other one was leftin the van. They asked this gentleman whether he was with us. He said no, hewas from work. They asked me where my friends were. I said I don't know, becauseI didn't see where they were headed to when we were running. There was anotherfemale ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 12) ... me with an object on thehead, and I fell. They started kicking me. As they were kicking me and assaultingme they were asking me questions as to whether I knew where my friends werestaying. When I tried to answer them they kept on assaulting me. They even askedme where I attended school. They told me that I had come to teach the ThabaNchu children about politics. They kicked me even in the ribs. I couldn't breatheat that stage and I lost consciousness. I only regained my consciousness whenthey were taking me to the tap and they opened some water. It was very coldand the water was cold. They put my head under the tap. I sort of regained consciousness.They started kicking me once more, and they chased me, they said I must fuckoff. The gates were locked, I couldn't get out. Two of them came to me. Whenthe other one was trying to open the gate the other one was assaulting me, andI couldn't run. As I was on the way, I wasn't very far away from the policestation, they drove towards me. There was this girl in the van, and I was walkingvery slowly. They got out and they further assaulted me. I fell on the new roadthat was under construction. They left me there. I struggled to stand up andwalk. I couldn't even see because my eyes were swollen. I could only see throughmy left eye. I got to a certain house. It was round about past six in the morning.I told them at home that I had been assaulted by police. As I was still explainingand relating this story one of the girls came in and asked me how I got home.I was so swollen I couldn't speak. They took me - they took me to the hospital.As we were at the hospital my mother went to fetch some forms at the policestation, because the doctor wanted to fill the forms in so that I could be ableto open up a case. They refused to give my mother the forms. The following dayon a Monday I went there. There was another girl who was also involved. Whenthey asked where this other girl was nobody knew where she had gone to. I wasultimately able to get the forms. I took them to the doctor, the doctor filled them in. I took them to the police station. They didn'twant to take the forms, they said I must bring all the people who were involved.On Monday - that was only on Monday when they released that other girl, andshe went on Tuesday. We all went to make some statements. They said they weregoing to let us know as to when the case will be heard. I was never notified.A month lapsed. After about a month there came another policeman. He said hewanted the statement from the witnesses. I took him to the witnesses. I wasawaiting to be told as to when the matter was going to be heard. That policemanpaid me regular visits and told me that he was handling the case. A year lapsedwith a few months. One time they came and got my mother. They gave her a letterthat said the person had been acquitted and the case had been finalised. Thepoliceman said he didn't know how the case ended because the people had soughtthe help of an attorney. That's all. Thank you very much. It's a sad story and you are still veryyoung, still look very young. You have been through such a difficult time atyour age. Which police station was this one, the name of the police station?--- It was Thaba Nchu Police Station. I would like to ask a few other questions. You were accostedby the police at 2.00 am, which was the early hours in the morning, but youalso say they released you in the early hours of the morning. At what time doyou think you were releasd from the police station? --- They didn't arrest us.It was only one girl who was taken into custody. They only called us, but wemanaged to run and they assaulted us. (Inaudible) ... in the police station? --- I didn't stay long.They kept on assaulting me until I left. You also mentioned that there were these girls. Do you knowtheir names? Where are these girls? --- The other one is Masisini, and Mpayi,as well as Sarah. You've also given the names of the witnesses, people who actuallywitnesses this incident, as Jacob and Richard. Were they part of the group?Who is Richard and Jacob? --- They are my friends. Were they with you when you were assaulted, or were they thepeople who ran away when you were being assaulted? --- They are the ones whoescaped. When I was assaulted it was the second time that they had got to me. You said there were two police who assaulted you and you mentionedone as Warrant-Officer Michael. Who is the second one? --- I don't know thesecond one. Do you know where Warrant-Officer Michael is now? --- I heardthat thereafter he got transferred, but it seems as if he has come back now. You mean come back to Thaba Nchu, or come back to where? ---Yes, Thaba Nchu. Okay. You also mentioned that you had some kidney failure andsome headaches. Can you tell us more about that, and whether you did get treatmentfor that? --- Yes, I paid regular visits to the doctors. This year I sufferedfrom kidneys as well as constant headaches. We would like to have the records of your treatment as well.--- I believe they are in the hospitals at which I have been treated. Can you tell us which hospitals? --- On the first day I went to Moroka. Thereafter I went to Philonomi. To which police station did you report it? --- Selosesha PoliceStation. And do you know the name of the people who were involved there?The names of the people who were involved in this investigation. --- I don'tremember their names. Can you identify them? --- I think if I can see them I canpoint them out. The last question which I would like to ask from you is, atthe moment what's your state of health and what are you doing? --- I get constantheadaches as well as kidney problems. I had to stay for the rest of 1991 notgoing to school. I couldn't write my final year exams. The following year Iwent back to school. That was in 1992 and 1993. In '94 and '95 I had these constantheadaches again. This year my mother took me back to the school. We understand the pain you have suffered, and we will try asmuch as possible to help, especially in relation to your health. I hand it overto the Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Thayisi, you mentionedthat this was the second time you were assaulted. Where was the first time?--- The first time we were at the police station, but in the yard, not in thecharge office. (Inaudible) ... same evening, but just in two different places?Thanks. Sorry, I misunderstood you. /DR MGOJO DR MGOJO Mr Thayisi, just a few questions. You saidthat there's a policeman who frequently visited you and said he was handlingthe case. Do you know the name of this policeman? --- Yes, I do. When the case was dropped did he have to say anything to youto give the explanation why the case was dropped? --- He never came. I lateron heard that he had already been transferred, but now he's around. So you know where he is. What is his name? --- His name isLikalakhe. You don't know his address? --- No, I don't know his address. You also said that the case ended because the people had securedthe assistance of an attorney. Who were those people? --- I said whent he casewas finalised somebody came to my mother to give her a letter, and he was askedas to how the case was finalised without me going to court. Then the policemansaid he didn't know how the case was finalised. Then he said if I wanted totake the matter on appeal I needed to get an attorney. Thank you. I beg your pardon. Did this girl who was put intocustody ever shared any experience which she had in the custody? She is ...(inaudible) ... the victims now. --- She told me that they just locked her in.They only brought her food on Sunday afternoon, then they only came back onMonday morning to let her out. (Inaudible) --- No. Thank you. MR LAX Sorry, this girl that was kept in custody, wasshe ever charged with anything? --- No, they just let her out without charging her. Did she make a case at all about being kept in custody? ---We were together with her when we went to open the case. Then they said I wasthe only one who was supposed to open up a case, they are going to be witnessesonly. MR LYSTER Mr Thayisi, again the story that we haveheard from you, like so many others, relates to unlawful activity by police,people who were put in place to assist and proctect us, but instead spent somuch of their time persecuting, assaulting and harassing people. We will try to follow up and see what happened to the casethat you instituted against the police, and we will certainly ask the Attorney-Generalwhy he declined to prosecute. I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and forbeing so patient. You were the last person to give evidence today, you've waitedthe whole day. And thank you for reliving those events of six years ago. Ithelps us in our job of painting a picture of what happened in the Free Stateover the past 30 years, and once we have looked at the statements which youmade to the police five or six years ago to confirm your version, we feel surethat your story will form part of the final report which we will give to theState President. So once again thank you for coming in, and we wish you wellas you go home.