hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS PIETERMARITZBURG NKOSI NELSON SHABANGU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56223&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvpmb/pmb7_14.htm NKOSI NELSON SHABANGU (Sworn, States) MR SINGH Thank you, Mr Shabangu, you may be seated. Just for the record do you wish to testify in Zulu or in English or Afrikaans? I am aware that at this stage there is no Afrikaans interpreter available, however. --- I want to render my testimony in Afrikaans. If it's easier I would give my testimony in English. Yes, so you are prepared to go ahead in English then? --- That's correct. Thank you. Mr Shabangu, just as an introduction, can you tell this Commission where you have served, or the various departments in which you have served in the South African Police? --- I would first start by telling you when I started working for the police services. Do you want to testify in Zulu? MR LYSTER Please settle down. The witness is going to testify in which language, Mr Singh? MR SINGH In English? --- That's correct. INTERPRETER Please be quiet. This is a very important moment, an emotional moment in our history. Could you please keep quiet and listen. Contain yourselves please. We cannot hear. The technicians shall fix the problem. MR SINGH Yes, Mr Shabangu, the Commissioner asks that you just speak a little bit louder so that the people can hear you at the back. --- Okay. Firstly I'm going to start to say I feel very happy now on this moment. All the time when I was working on the police services there was no chance to come forward. The certain place when I was working, I was working at different places of branches. Firstly I was working at Riot Unit No 8, and then secondly I worked at Internal Security Branch, and the third one I was working at Murder & Robbery, and then fourthly I was working at the Uniform Branch. MR LYSTER Are they not hearing him? INTERPRETER Maybe if you can express yourself in Zulu. Can you speak Zulu, Mr Shabangu? --- I do not understand it properly. I cannot express myself in Zulu. (Pause) MR LYSTER All right, Mr Shabangu, you said that you - you just gave us a brief account of the different units in which you served - the Murder & Robbery. --- That's correct. The Uniform Branch, the Riot Unit No 8 here in Pietermaritzburg. --- Ja, I counted about four different branches where I was working. Please carry on speaking. I just want to check whether the audience can now hear the interpreter. --- Well, I'm going to put on this people's mind first why I came forward. I'm going to put a short briefly on a firstly. The man who was a policeman was serving under our unit, Unit 8. That man was killed. Because of this man was killed - this man was killed because of he killed one of the commander from Pietermaritzburg. (intervention) MR SINGH Mr Shabangu, could I just interrupt you and ask you to - you're quite welcome to name the people you're referring to. --- Okay, the man I'm going to specify here is Constable Ray Ngcobo. He was killed because he killed Major Deon Terblanche. That's why I put in the people's mind on this specific moment I am sitting here - I am freely on the moment, but on outside - outside I won't feel free. I am going to start firstly on this - during 1990, March. That specific time I was working at Security Branch. On one day at one stage a certain man came, that's David Ntombela, and he came to speak to one of our superiors. On that moment I couldn't specify who was that. And he came to tell us that the ANC has blocked the road of the Edendale Road. And our superior he told us we must out onto the area to patrol that area. If I say our superior on that specific basis I refer to - he's a captain now at the moment, Captain Brookes. We're doing the patrols during the time when he told us, and also the part of the people from the unit. If I say the unit I specify the Riot Unit. On that specific moment there was nothing happening there, and up to the stage on one day there was a bus coming from town going to Elandskop. And there was a lady who was injured into that bus. There was a youngster who was standing next to Mavulala bus stop, and he threw a stone into the bus. And then on this stage we went to the scene and the specific man I was talking about, David Ntombela, told the bus must go into the N3 side. That mean all the buses going to come to Pietermaritzburg they must use the N3. The bus was using this road for quite a while. Sorry, you're talking about the N3 now? --- That's correct. And up to this stage I was working at basic again back at the unit. One morning I was sleeping at Ansonia Hotel and Special Constable Duma approached me. That was round about early in the morning. And he told me I must accompany with him to pick up the special constable. And because I know this man I put my uniform on and I went with him. We already collect all the special constables from that ... (incomplete) Sorry, from which area was that, Mr Shabangu? --- I am talking about the Elandskop. By the time when all the special constables was collected all them they have possession of shotguns. Yes. Sorry to interrupt you yet again. What vehicle were you using, and about how many special constables did you pick up? --- That was an Isuzu truck, and it was white in colour, and there was approximately 25 constables. And we came down up to the stage where the area called Gezabuso. At Gezabuso I saw a lot of crowd in front of the truck, and this group of people, a lot of them had this assegai. And some of them they're wearing Zulu tradition things. And this man, David Ntombela, he stopped the truck and he called this special constable by his name. Then he told him no one's going to go down. All the special constables must get out from the truck. All the special constables they went out of the truck with their shotguns. By that time they left into the ground after the truck, and this Duma assist - he asked me to drive the truck now. I must follow them. Well, I followed them on the gravel road, the road leading into KwaShange. And next to the school - there's a school on the left-hand side if you come to the hill - there's where I parked the truck. And they ran into the houses. By that time it was starting to be daylight. You can see the people from far away this time. And there's a gunshot was carrying on. By the time the gunshot carried on then I saw a lot of houses was burnt down. The house was burnt down by the special constables because they were running watch to these houses. They were running watch to these houses. I stayed behind to the truck because I couldn't leave there, up to the stage I pick up the radio, I call for the assistance. But on this stage there was no vehicle around. And about a hour ago the red Husky came there. Sorry, Mr Shabangu, you mean an hour later? --- And he went past us, myself and to the truck. And then the Toyota kombi came. That Toyota kombi I realised because I know that. That's a kombi was - I was working with this member before. Mr Shabangu, before you proceed, you mentioned a red Husky. Could you just explain to the Commission the relevance of this red Husky? --- The red Husky was used before that Toyota kombi came. Used by whom? --- Well, there was a team was in form. That team was in form by the unit. I was one of the team. Yes, thank you, you may proceed then. --- And in this kombi, the Toyota kombi, there was Sergeant Delport, Sergeant de Wet, Constable Mchunu, and a Special Constable Zuma. And they came close to my Canter and then we talk. From there Duma came back to pick up this truck now and to put some goods into the truck. Sorry, can I just interrupt. What goods are you talking about? --- I'm referring to the television and radios. Yes, where were they chasing the cattle to? --- The cattle was carrying from the KwaShange area and down to Gezabuso and up to KwaMafunze. And by the time when the Amabutho was fighting they was taking the cattles, taking the items, and I realised there was another group the time when I entered to the kombi. There was another people coming from Ezibomvini area. The man who was leading those people his name was - I know him as Gavaza Khanyile. That's a man who's passed away already. And he was belonging to the IFP that side. He was coming on the other side of Ezibomvini, and these people with David Ntombela they were coming from this side, from Gezabuso. And I realised on this moment all the people who are running down, they were running down into the valley, and they were running down to Vulisaka, down to Edendale. And the unit vehicles came. Some of the vehicles were parked at Vulisaka, far away from KwaShange. And on that moment there was no action was taking to attend the scene. And from there we drive away from the kombis, we went to KwaMafunze area. That's where the vehicle was parked, that Cantor, and all the items was inside there. Sorry, the items you're referring to being the TVs and radios? --- That's correct. And on this stage, while I was sitting in the Cantor, and these people carrying the stuff, and some people chasing the cattle, I realised I saw one of the men what I know him. He was belonging to the IFP. I know this man the time when I was working at Mqonqo area. That's Philip Powell. He was driving - David Ntombela's son was driving the vehicle. That was a white Sapphire. Sorry, just to draw your attention to your statement. You say Ford Sierra. It's paragraph 26. --- Ja, Ford Sierra and Sapphire, I was thinking it as almost same. Yes, all right. --- Well, the Ford Sierra is the old model, the Sapphire is the new model. Yes, thank you, Mr Shabangu. And from there - and then Constable Delport and he recall everything what is happening to the scene. He recall everything that's happening to the scene, and he inform them back at the office. Mr Shabangu, if I could just assist you. I know there was some disturbance at the beginning. Could I just take you back to paragraph 25 of your statement, which you have omitted in your oral evidence? That's the part where afterwards you contacted the unit, the Riot Unit, and asked them to despatch vehicles to attend to the scene. --- Ja. On this moment in paragraph 25 there was a lot of vehicles near the unit people. Yes, all right, proceed further then over the page. Can you carry on from there then? --- On paragraph 28 I nominated where I saw this specific man. He came in from Ezibomvini. He was driving a Datsun. Yes, and your paragraph above that? --- Which one are you talking - which paragraph? I think you may have a different copy - paragraph 27.1. --- Paragraph 27.1. David Ntombela he spoke with some of our members at the scene. Please try not talk while the witness is talking. Yes, carry on, what did he say? --- David Ntombela he spoke with some of our members from the Riot Unit. So you can see that paragraph 27.1. Yes. Is there anything else you wish to add? --- (Incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 4) ... where Duma took the Canter. From the school he drive it where these lot of goods was loaded in. In paragraph 31.1, that's where the stuff was - TVs and all the items was loaded into the Canter and was taken to KwaMafunze area. Are you finished now? --- That's correct. Mr Shabangu, just to summarise, do you remember when this incident took place? You didn't give us a specific date as to when this took place. --- I think I say from the beginning that was during March 1990. Yes, but do you remember approximately which day was it? Was it during this period that has become known as the Seven Day War? --- On this moment I couldn't recall everything on a specific date, because of I couldn't remember the date. All right, but just to summarise your evidence. You said that you went with Special Constable Duma in an Isuzu Canter motor vehicle, you picked up 25 special constables from Elandskop. --- That's correct. Where were they staying at Elandskop? --- They was staying in Elandskop. Where? --- Some of them was staying in KwaMafunze. Okay. --- Some of them was staying Emaswazini. Okay, so you picked them up from their houses? --- They were collecting to the bus stops. And then you went from there in that vehicle to KwaShange. --- Before we came to KwaShange that's where we find Amabutho. There's where you found Mr Ntombela and Amabutho. --- That's correct. Mr Ntombela told them to get off the truck, is that right? --- That's correct. And then how did - did you go from there to KwaShange? --- This is the same time when Duma assisted - he told me I must drive the Canter and the groups of special constables accompany with the Amabuthos and David Ntombela. So did they travel in the vehicles - in the vehicle? --- No. They was travelling with foot. On foot. To KwaShange? --- To KwaShange. And then what happened at KwaShange? What did the special constables do? --- On KwaShange I drove the Canter behind them, and approximately next to the school, there's a school next to the hill there, about two kilometres from the main road, that's where some of the special constables and Amabutho was running down to the houses, and some of them was running up to the houses. And what did they do at the houses? --- Firstly when I realised - when I hear - I hear gunshots. So you heard gunshots. --- I hear gunshot. Coming from? --- They were coming from - the sound of the shotgun, because the special constables were carrying the shotguns. So did you conclude that the shots were being fired by the special constables? --- And they were firing - the reason why I say that was them, because of some of the people were running out from the houses. Okay. And then what happened after that? --- From there there's where I realised to ask assistance, because I didn't realise what was happening. So you radioed for assistance? --- That's correct. To your unit. --- To the unit. And you waited for assistance to come. --- That's correct. And you said that special constables came to your vehicle and put items which they had taken from the houses onto the vehicle, is that right? --- Yes, that's correct. Then you said that vehicles from the Riot Unit came and parked next to you. --- That's correct. And you said that this was at Vulisaka. --- Yes. If I say Vulisaka, if I am putting this estimation from Vulisaka to KwaShange, across to the hill. That's about four to five ks - kilometres away where the incident was took place. Did you have a clear view of the things that were taking place? --- Ja. I could see everything, because that's why I say there was starting to be daylight. Then you said Mr Ntombela's vehicle came up with his son driving it, is that right? --- That's correct. And Mr Philip Powell was in the motor vehicle. --- That's correct. Now, in your statement you say that Mr Ntombela he came on foot. --- That's correct. And you said that he spoke to some members of your unit. --- That's correct. And in your statement you said that Mr Ntombela said that the unit should not interfere with what was going on in the valley. Is that right? --- That's correct. Now, in the statement you say that the special constables continued to load items onto this vehicle. --- That's correct. And you said that you noticed that many of the houses below you were burning, is that right. --- That's correct, ja. Now, where did the truck go from there? --- The truck left the scene at KwaShange and then he left to KwaMafunze. If I say KwaMafunze, that's where I realised David Ntombela was staying. Who drove the truck? --- That was Constable Duma. Now, you said in your statement that you saw the special constables driving cattle as well. --- That's correct. Where did they drive the cattle? --- The cattle was taken down to same place where the truck was parked. If I say same place, it's by David Ntombela's house. So the truck with all the stolen goods on and the cattle were taken to Mr Ntombela's house. --- That's correct. That's where I last I saw the thing was parked, and the cattle was there. Now, where did you go after that? --- Then into the - so I say I jumped into the kombi, because of the kombi was the people who I worked with then. Were these people from the Riot Unit? --- That's correct, ja. And where did you go? --- We patrolled actually another different area. Did you make a report of what you had seen to your unit? --- On this specific moment I think my superior on the vehicle he was busy on the radio. Well, I don't know if he recall exactly what he's find onto the scene. Well, when you got back to your unit did you make any report of what had happened? --- Ja. We came to the unit, and the man I believe now he's the director. Who is he? --- That's Colonel Meyer. He was a Colonel Meyer before. And then he asked us what was happening there. And did you tell him? --- On that moment the man was doing talking with this one, my superior. Who was that? --- It was Sergeant de Wet. Did Sergeant de Wet tell Colonel Meyer what had happened? --- While I was with him only brief him halfly according to the scene. So, just to summarise the whole thing, are you saying that the special constables attacked those houses in KwaShange, fired shots, and removed items from the houses, and drove cattle away from those houses. --- That's correct, so far as I saw with my eyes. Now, had you worked with special constables before? --- That's correct. Where? In Pietermaritzburg or in Mpumalanga, or where did you work with them? --- I can't recall. A lot of places where I was working with them. And what sort of work were the special constables doing? Were they doing ordinary police work? --- Basic when the special constables arrive at the unit they was told - because a lot of them they came from Elandskop. They was told - I don't know how can I put these words in Engels. "Hulle was verduidelik om saam met die IFP te werk" Okay, I'll just translate for you. They were told that they had to work with the IFP. --- That's correct. Now, who told them that? --- On that specific thing I can put on this point first. On this kombi what I'm talking about, the kombi was informed by the unit. The only thing on this kombi they was informed to assist the IFP. And these special constables - so I recall one incidence back also where was Constable Ray Ngcobo, he was took out from the special constables to work with them because everything what was done before he didn't like it. And he was put inside to work in the garden. So are you saying that the special constables were formed - or they were created as a group or as a unit in order to assist the IFP? Is that what you're saying? --- That's correct as far by my knowledge. Because this is what has been told to us by other policemen. Captain Brian Mitchell informed us that special constables - in fact he used the word that in Pietermaritzburg and Mpumalanga the special constables were the third force. He said that they were specifically created and used to ... (incomplete) --- That's correct. To assist the IFP and to eliminate UDF/ANC people. That is what he told us. --- That's correct, ja. Is that also your understanding of the special constables? --- That's correct. Now, did the people in your unit - did your superiors also have that knowledge and understanding? --- So far as by my knowledge, yes. I realised they were knowledge about it. You were also a separate unit, as I understood you, and your task was to assist the IFP. --- That's correct, ja. Which Delport is this we're talking about? What's his first name? --- I couldn't remember his name, but I believe he's working at the Vehicle Theft Unit. And the de Wet? --- I believe he's working in the Suspect Staff. Do you remember his first name? --- It's Willem de Wet. Mchunu? --- Mchunu, only I think I know his initial. He's M M. And Zuma? --- Zuma, only the name what I know what the people call him, they says Pay Zuma. Pay? --- Pay Zuma. Which police officer was in charge of the specials? --- Firstly this branch was informed at the unit before Deon Terblanche was passed away. So was - are you saying Terblanche was in charge of the specials as part of being in charge of the unit? --- He was the commander of the unit, but the man was in charge of our section now was Sergeant de Wet. What was Tukkie van den Heever responsible for? --- I didn't hear this message. Van den Heever, what was he responsible for? --- The only thing what I could remember - well, I already make some statements, you're going to receive it later, about this. Okay, we'll leave that question for the time being. At the time that you were at KwaShange, and the members of your unit were there - now, by that I mean your specific kombi unit and the members of the Riot Unit who were present. That was the same time that these people were bringing all this property to the truck, is that right? --- You can just come again with this message. Let me put it another way round. Were all the policemen that you were involved with who were there at the scene - were they present when people were bringing back stolen property? --- From my knowledge the kombi was present there, the members was working with me were present. Was Mr Powell present at that time? --- He came there with a vehicle, but the time when he jump off from the vehicle that's the time we moved from the scene. Where did Mr Powell go to when you left there? --- Well, I don't know at the moment where he went to. Did he follow you to Ntombela's place? --- There was a lot of people there. You can't specify, Sir, that man you saw him there. Now, this red Husky of yours, you had previously been part of a unit as part of that red Husky as well, is that right? --- That's correct, ja. What were those members doing in the area? --- So, I can't confirm this point. You're going to find a statement later concern to this. Okay. Now, you started off your evidence by saying that you were sleeping at the Ansonia at that time. --- That's correct. And Duma asked you to accompany him. --- That's correct. Did you know where he was going and what he was going to do? --- He already explained to me he's going to pick up special constables. So Duma's doing that was part of a bigger plan? --- According to my knowledge, the time when I arrived to the scene, the thing was planned. So, do I get you correctly that it was no accident that you met up with David Ntombela and he forced those specials off the van? --- According to my knowledge the time when the people - everybody jumped fastly, when we meet him there, and also the time when I drive the truck up to the school, and I saw that other group coming from another side, and I realised that thing was planned. Thank you. Mr Shabangu, apart from being in the same unit with that man you call Terblanche what were your other associations with him? --- I can't hear that. I say that there was a man called Terblanche who was in the same unit I believe. --- He was commander of the Riot Unit. What I am trying to say here, did you have any other associations with him apart from the working contact? Did you know him very well? --- On this moment I will know him very well because he was relative of my father. He was a relative of your father? --- They were working together with my father before my father passed away. And so you became very close to him. --- That's correct. Is he the one who brought you into this job in this unit? --- That's correct. Is he the one who taught you to speak Afrikaans? --- No. Where did you learn it? --- At home. When you say at home you mean at the Shabangu's place? --- Ventersdorp. Thank you. You said here in your statement, paragraph 30, "At some stage Delport had arrived in the grey and blue Riot Unit kombi. He said these people caused a lot of nonsense and we should leave them." Who were those people? Who were these people who caused a lot of nonsense? --- Well, by the time when I asked them he referred to me for the people from KwaShange. Who were those people at KwaShange? --- That means in other words there was a party of - those people from KwaShange is ANC. What did you understand him to be saying when he said that they were causing a lot of nonsense? --- Well, on that time when he said that I realised exactly back where I was told to side on one side. These cattle which were taken from KwaShange, what happened with them? Were they divided among the people, Amabuthos, or what, according to your knowledge? --- Well, after the Seven Day War there was a party was held, and there was a lot of cattle was slaughtered there. Where was that? --- There was in between KwaShange and Gezabuso. Did you people attend the party? --- Because we was invited there I also went myself. Who invited you to attend the party? --- Well, the letter came back to our branch. It was addressed to the unit. From who was the letter? --- The letter was coming from David Ntombela. How many officers attended the party? --- Well, I can put it this way. My section was there. There was some of the people from another branches. Did you know that the party was made out of the cattle which were stolen from other people? --- On the specific moment when the thing was happening I didn't know that. When did you start knowing about that? --- After the party was finished. Did the policemen get any share in that? --- Well, I couldn't say if they took it, or if they didn't took it, or if the people took it. I believe on my knowledge they was helping the people putting the things into the Canter. You can't help the person if you won't get nothing. So you feel that they got a share? That's logical. --- According to my knowledge, ja. And in paragraph 34 you say here, "We later went back to the unit, leaving the Riot Unit patrol vans behind. Some time later the Plessislaer police arrived." When the Plessislaer police arrived what did they do? --- Well, the people from Plessislaer they came to ask first what's happening from the scene. Well, I think I am going to leave the other question to Professor Simangele, 37.1. 37.1 which is marked 33.1 on page 9. Before I get to 37.1 please explain about Ray Ngcobo? You said at first Ray Ngcobo was killed because he had killed Terblanche. Did I get you to be saying that? --- Yes. And you went on, you said Ray Ngcobo got to a point where he did not like the things that were happening and now they turned him to be the garden boy. Now, tell us about Ray Ngcobo, why he was killed, and also why he killed Terblanche and why he was killed, and who killed him. --- Constable Ray Ngcobo - I was just summarising, because on this specific moment I came for the Seven Day War. Oh, I understand you. You say today you are going to elaborate about the Seven Day War, you won't touch anything about Ngcobo? --- I was just summarising because I am sitting here. I put in these people's mind on this old - where are coming from, this old Government. I shouldn't be sitting like that. That's the cause of the death of Ray Ngcobo. In other words you say Ray Ngcobo was killed as a result of some threats. You know, to summarise this thing here, he was threatened. No, I won't get any further than that, but I will continue to ask you regarding paragraph 37.1, with regard to that paragraph. Maybe you will also say you were just saying concisely, I don't know, but you've said you have difficulties of even falling asleep at night, sleeping sound and peaceful. What you wish could happen is for you to forget everything, the harassment, the torturing, and the killings that took place. Two questions with regard to this statement. Firstly, is there some incidents that you found yourself being part of? --- Some incidents I was involved with it. Okay, I won't elaborate. Secondly, you go on to say you have difficulties in sleeping so sound at night. Tell us, how is your health faring in as far as that is concerned? --- Each and every evening when I sleep on my dream I saw some of the pictures of the people. And that's why I say I want to put this thing past. Some of the families sitting here today they doesn't know where their parents is. Some of them doesn't know where their children are. That's why I came today. I understand, Mr Shabangu. There are two more things I will want to make comment on. Out of all the things that happened one will have to thank you for coming forward. Many are hiding, they don't want to come and give testimony, but we want to thank you in a special way that you've been so brave enough to come forward and disclose so much. Secondly, we might have to refer you to the psychologists for your health. After this you should ask the TRC staff as to how you can get there and so on. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got a few questions. Firstly just to establish the dates. I know that you said it's very difficult to remember the exact dates, but to have a better picture can I ask how long after the IFP rally on the 25th of March did the story that you have just related occur? --- You refer to the IFP march that was in Durban? Yes, I am referring to the IFP rally which was in Durban. --- If I am not mistaken I think it was four or five days. Thank you. My next question, you mentioned that the special constables were recruited probably exclusively to help the IFP. Where were they recruited from and who recruited them? --- They were recruited at Cape Town, at Koeberg. I mean the areas where they came from. --- They came from Emaswazini, Mafunze and Elandskop. And who was responsible for recruiting them? --- Well, the man that I know when I was at the unit that time, who actually came several time at the unit, it was David Ntombela. Thank you. You also mentioned the presence of /Mr Philip As somebody you knew fairly well, probably you have had - worked with him in the past, what is your opinion about his presence there on that particular day? --- Well, I also put it this way. There is a statement I've been already make it. I was working with him a lot of time. Thank you. And also you made reference to the Canter truck. Can I confirm, did the truck belong to the police? --- That truck was a police truck. It was coming from the unit. Would you recall the registration number of this truck? --- Well, there's only one long-base Usuzu truck was there at the unit that time. Another question relates to paragraph 32 of your statement. I just want to find out about Mrs Gasa. You made reference to her. Can you tell us more about her and the family? What happened to them? --- Well, by the time when I saw Mrs Gasa - I know her because I saw her several times. And then I spoke to her, and then also I informed to the unit because her husband's working at the unit. I presume they were staying at KwaShange area. --- That's correct. Were they also affected by the violence that had taken place? --- According to what she told me, and also she show me the house. The house was already start to burn. According to your knowledge is Mr Gasa still in the police force? --- That's correct. Where is he stationed now? --- He's still stationed at the unit. Excuse me for my ignorance. You mentioned Units Eight and 19. Which one is Mr Gasa? --- Well, the time when I left that unit he was working at the kitchen. Lastly - maybe it's a follow-up Professor Magwaza's concern - you mentioned that you want to break with the past. Have you been advised or have you considered applying for amnesty? --- On this moment the people are busy doing that. Thank you, Sir. I have one last question. I think you are disturbed. You appear disturbed and not peaceful. Would you wish some assistance that would help you to get in touch with other people who also were affected by you and harassed, tortured by you, so you may reconcile with them? --- There is some people, and I'd like to say those people, maybe they're going to hear on the following statement. It's very hard for me to pronounce that front of these people. Maybe some of them they's not here. What I am saying is I am not expecting you to disclose here of the things that you did, but I do feel that probably some of the people you should get in touch with them. That will be a sign of showing remorse and reconciling with them at the same time. --- There is some people. I'd like to talk to them, to explain them. I was saying that so that we will suggest to you that if you feel there is a need to do that you should come to us. The Truth Commission will enlist some help. Mr Shabangu, thank you very much for coming in and talking to us today. We know how difficult it is for you, as a serving policeman, to come forward and tell us things that you and your colleagues have done. You have said that these things haunt you, and images of the people that have died still prevent you from sleeping at night. And, as my colleagues have said, this Commission provides a forum for people like yourself to come forward and to tell the truth about what happened, and we are glad that you are making use of that opportunity. Thank you very much.