special Caprivi Hearings 1997-08-07 DURBAN BRIAN GCINA MKHIZE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56253&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/caprivi/caprivi4.htm 1A PROCEEDINGS RESUMED 1997/08/07 APPEARANCES AS BEFORE MR MARITZ CHAIRMAN MR MKHIZE Yebo. /BRIAN GCINA MKHIZE 1A BRIAN GCINA MKHIZE (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter) CHAIRMAN MR MACADAM And you were given the rank of constable once that training had been completed? --- That's correct. Now, is it correct that you were posted to the Esikhaweni district headquarters to perform your duties as a member of the KwaZulu Police? --- Yes, that's correct. Now, in what capacity were you employed? What type of duties did you perform at that stage? --- I was employed and I worked in many units and I ended up at the reaction unit. What were the reaction unit's duties, primarily? --- The reaction unit is the unit which is considered as the powerful unit to prevent crime. It doesn't stop there. It also was in charge of raiding, road-blocks. However, it is the unit which normally reacts to reports. For example, if there has been some shooting or fighting, it is the first unit to be called and it must be the first to arrive at the scene of crime. However, as a member of the police, you can be given any task without any orders from the unit in which you are based. And you told us earlier in your evidence that you were a staunch IFP supporter. That is before you were taken to the training in the Caprivi in 1986. --- That's correct. /And now at 1A And now at the stage when you were posted in Esikhaweni, had your political affiliations changed at all? --- No, it didn't change. Did you have any contact with local politicals and leaders in the Esikhaweni area while you were posted as a policeman there? --- Yes, I had contact. With whom did you have contact? --- Are you referring to people in Esikhaweni only? And in 1991 was there any political violence in the Esikhaweni area? --- Yes, it was intensifying, the violence. Could you briefly and in broad terms sketch the nature of that violence? --- It was very frightful violence, because houses were burnt and you would discover a corpse lying on the road, not knowing what was the cause of the death, and people were running away from their /respective places, 1A respective places, and some were injured, getting shot, and others died because they had been attacked and others were attacked on the streets, in their houses and even in meetings. It was a kind of a violence which had intensified, especially between the two organizations, the IFP and the ANC. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I take it this was political violence between the two organizations? --- That's correct. And, from your own perception, did you hold any of these organizations responsible? INTERPRETER Please may you repeat that question. MR MACADAM From your own perception, did you believe that one or either of these organizations was actually to blame for this violence? --- I wouldn't like to try to be a political analyst to say which organization was right and which organization was wrong. However, violence erupted between the two organizations. I personally, as a person who took part and aligned myself with one of the parties and it was known that I was an IFP follower or supporter, I won't be in the position to judge who was right and who was wrong. And did you at any stage, over and above your duties /as a police 1A as a police officer, administering law and order in that area, become personally involved in this violence? --- Can you please repeat that question? Over and above your duties as a police officer at that time, did you, in a personal capacity, become involved in this violence which you've described to us? --- No, I didn't get myself involved in the violence. However, in continuing with my statements it will come to light as to how I got involved in the violence around Esikhaweni. Could you proceed to move to that point and tell us how that happened? --- It was during 1991, even if I don't remember the exact month and the days, I had been approached by Madlanduna - Daluxolo Luthuli - to inform me that I had to go to Ulundi to meet the leaders - leaders like Captain Langeni and others. However, he didn't mention the names of the others. The person who he mentioned to me was Captain Langeni, who was a captain at that time. I didn't doubt, because I did work with Langeni after my training at Caprivi. I believe that in my past evidence I explained how I worked in Port Shepstone, where I worked under Captain Langeni for about three months with him on the South Coast. Even if he was a KwaZulu Police, we were doing the Inkatha work at that time. Therefore I didn't doubt, I took the steps to go to Ulundi to see Captain Langeni. Madlanduna has already explained to me that there are some serious cases which have to be solved and myself, as a person who was trained earlier to be an Inkatha soldier, and I knew the connection between the KwaZulu Government or the KwaZulu Police with the Inkatha. Therefore I had to go to Ulundi. /I went there 1A I went there to see Captain Langeni. And Madlanduna, when he approached you, what position did he hold at that stage? --- Madlanduna had two positions. He was a political commissar to the Caprivi's. He was also a commander. His office was at the head office of Inkatha at Ulundi at A Section. /avoid the loss 1A avoid the loss of support, the loss of lives of our members, because it became clear that we were getting defeated, and that was the theme of the meeting. I was also reminded that I am an Inkatha soldier. As I have explained in my evidence before the committee about my training - my past training - that I was also trained to be a policeman. I was reminded that even if I was in the Police Force it doesn't mean that I'm no longer a patriot and I was told that the time had arrived for me to use the skills I acquired at Caprivi. I also put forward my views in that meeting. There were many things which I wanted to know before I commit myself or agree that I will employ these skills which I had. I asked about the things that I wanted to know and everything was clarified to me and I got all the answers, which satisfied me. In other words, these answers made me to agree that I will do the task that they are asking me to do. I don't know if I should continue to explain what are the things that I wanted to know before I commit myself to do the task. Yes, if you could explain that. --- Firstly, I wanted to know whether the work that I was supposed to do is the work that can put me in a dangerous situation - things like losing my life or getting injured or getting arrested. Those are the three things which I wanted to know. I was given the assurance that with respect to my life it's not up to them, it's up to me, because I was trained so I should be able to protect myself, and I was told that with regard to arrest I don't have to worry because there is a brigadier who was a DC at Esikhaweni - it was Brigadier Khomo Mzimela - I was told that he would do all the preparations to make sure that I was safe in /cases where /they were 1A they were people who like women and they had many women. In my training which I got at Caprivi, it emphasised behaviour. It was emphasised that once you find yourself socialising with women or like women a lot you will know that the secrecy of the organization could be leaked out, which - this could be dangerous for the organization up to leadership level. These are the reasons which made me to refuse to work with these people. INTERPRETER May you please repeat the last part of your question. MR MACADAM Whether anybody suggested to you that you should, in fact, use these Caprivians as part of this enterprise which you were going to embark on. --- I will repeat. No one suggested that I shouldn't work with them. It's myself who complained, giving those reasons which I have already mentioned. I explained that I didn't want to work with them, because I suspected that we will not succeed if I had to work with such people. I know the danger of the work that I was supposed to do. MR WILLS MR MACADAM /we have agreed /ended. 1A ended. And after that meeting did you return to Esikhaweni? --- Yes, that's correct. [Break in recording] --- Yes, equipment - I mean everything, not only the ammunition, together with the arms. I went to those places which he told me about. He said I should go to Dunford. At Port Dunford there was an Inkatha camp in the bush areas next to the KwaZulu Government Offices. There was this house which looked like a home for a white man. It had two rondavels. And /he told me 1A he told me that I will find a Caprivian at that place. The person was known as Thomas Buthelezi and I knew him from Caprivi, because we trained together. However, when we went to train as police, he didn't join us. He only had the Caprivi training. I did as the Captain told me. From Ulundi I drove to Empangeni. From there I drove straight to Dunford and I continued into the Inkatha camp which was there. At the gate I hooted. The man by the name of Thomas came and he told me that he was waiting for me. He took out those arms - the firearms together with the ammunition and, if I remember well, he gave me an AK-47 and some ammunition. I am making a mistake. He gave me some magazines which didn't have bullets. The bullets were inside a plastic. They were mixed - bullets for AK-47, for shotguns. He also gave me a stainless steel gun which can lodge 12 bullets ... (intervention) /coming from 1A coming from the ANC. It continued till the end somewhere of 1991. After some few months, it was somewhere at the end of 1991, it became clear that, even if the young men were working, they were not effective because the ANC was attacking the people. I went back to Captain Langeni and Madlanduna and I told them the work is not going well with these young men. There is someone whom I have seen who became police, who had just completed their training somewhere at the end of 1991. This was someone whom I knew. I knew that he was brave. Even if he didn't have the Caprivi training, he has been trained to be a policeman. The reason why I liked him and wished that I could work with him, I knew how he loved Inkatha. He was a very good friend of Siphiwe Mvuyane. Maybe I should clarify or give a clear picture of Siphiwe Mvuyane before the committee. Siphiwe Mvuyane was a well-known person within the community. He was known as a killer. However, he will killing a particular type of people. He was killing ANC members and those who were sympathising with the ... (intervention) MR LASICH CHAIRMAN MR LASICH MR MACADAM Please proceed. --- I am trying to give a picture to the Commission as to what made me to trust this man and give me the strength to go that he should be included with the people who were supposed to work with me. I knew about his bravery. His name was Romeo Mbuzo Mbambo. He was intelligent. He was physically fit and he /was a person 1B was a person who exercised daily, and he was a quiet person - not talkative - and I knew that he would be able to maintain the secrecy, and he wasn't a man that would just go around with women and he didn't drink. Even today he is not drinking. I realised this is the kind of person I would like to work with, and he loved Inkatha a lot, and I could see that he was a very strong man and he could be effective. Even when you look at his chest you can see that he's a hefty man and a big man and brave. Then I went to Captain Langeni and asked him to be given permission to approach this man and tell him the truth. I mean the truth which transpired between me and the people who had the meeting with me, the previous meeting. Captain Langeni asked me as to how far do I trust this man and I told him it can't be possible that he's so closely related to Siphiwe Mvuyane. If he is an ANC member it would be difficult for him to be close like that to Siphiwe Mvuyane and I thought that he was a real Inkatha supporter. Captain Langeni and Madlanduna asked me to bring him to them, so that they can see him. I told them it's not that easy. I can't just bring him. I had first to go and try to ask him to come or to find out whether he will agree to undertake the kind of work that we wanted him for. However, they warned me whether I knew that if I tell him the secret and he refuses to join us it's possible that we might find ourselves sold out and therefore it became clear to me, because I didn't think about that. However, we agreed that if he refused, after having divulged the whole truth to him, we will be compelled to take care of him. I went back. I tried to get closer to him. After a time where I had to approach /him directly /work with /reason why 1B reason why a particular person was eliminated, and that's how we worked at Esikhaweni. Could you just explain to us this term, "Take the first bus". What did you understand that to mean? INTERPRETER I didn't hear you. I think there's a communication problem. MR MACADAM The term, "Take the first bus", what did you understand that to mean? --- This is a term which is normally used because we have to use telephones. We knew sometimes that the telephones might be bugged by the white people or the enemy. This was a code name which was used to make sure that even if you hear us discussing about this you will never understand what we are talking about. This means that you have to kill the person. So we didn't have to say, "Kill him", we had to say he must take the first bus. However, we knew very well that person has to be killed. And what I want you to do now is to just briefly comment on certain specific cases and, in this regard, on the questions I ask you and not to in detail describe everything blow by blow. This is simply to enable your evidence to be heard in the time that is available to this Commission to hear it. Firstly, I want to put it to you that a person, Taliwe Mkhwanazi, was murdered in the Esikhaweni area and I want to ask you whether you have any knowledge of that person and his death. --- Yes, I do. Can you, firstly, tell us who that person was? --- I got the instruction that that person should take the first bus as soon as possible. From whom did you receive that instruction? --- From Captain Langeni, and I did that, together with my /other members. 1B other members, and I discovered later that the reasons behind his killing it was because he was involved in the smuggling or supplying of firearms, which were given to specific members of the ANC. I discovered that the ANC had people who were taken from Esikhaweni for training time to time and they would leave for about a month or two months and come back to operate within the community. Those were the people whom Taliwe helped to supply arms and ammunitions, and he was the one who united the ANC people who were fighting at Dlangezwa with those who were at Esikhaweni, and I discovered that Taliwe is the one who started a way to protect the ANC members. They bought two-way communication radios. They were patrolling Esikhaweni all over the night, protecting their people, and I found out that he is the one that did all these arrangements and he also organized firearms, bringing them inside so that the Inkatha people should be killed. We decided we should stop that and in order to stop it we have to remove the source or close the source. Those were the reasons of which Taliwe had to be killed. After he was killed did you report that fact back to any person? --- Yes, because I have to make a report after the work was completed. Therefore I had to inform Captain Langeni. And do you have knowledge of an attempt to kill a person, Welcome Mthimkulu? --- Yes, I do. What do you know about that attempt? --- I also got an instruction from Captain Langeni and I had to do the reconnaissance. I remember that, while talking about my training yesterday, I mentioned reconnaissance. However, this is the way of tracing him to find out where /he stays and 1B he stays and where he works and his time of going to work and also his normal routes. I had to make a trunk call, 1023 number, to find out his work telephone number. After getting the number of the firm I called the firm and I was connected to the switchboard and I asked them to put me through to his department and telling them that I wanted to talk to him. They put me to the extension where he was working and I discovered that he was not at work at that time and I asked them when is he coming to work. They said he would be coming at ten the following day at night. I went back to my syndicate and I told them that he would be going to work at 10 o'clock the following evening and we tried to make some arrangements. I think it might take some time to tell about these arrangements. It was on that particular day, the following day, when he had to go to work, that we attacked him. It's not necessary for you to go into any detail about the arrangements. If you can proceed then. --- We ended up attacking him. We later discovered that the time when we were attacking him, he was about to go to work. We attacked his car and he wasn't inside the car and we found that someone else was driving the car. There were some women in the car. Even if we didn't get a chance to see that there were women in the car because it was at night, none of them was killed, only the car was hit and some of them inside were injured. No one was killed. Why was this attempt made to kill this person? --- I later found that he was very active at the firm where he was working. He was always against Inkatha and he was said to be bad when it comes to propaganda and he was a /very influential 1B very influential person. They said if he had to blacken Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi he will blacken him in such a way that this is a very bad person. He couldn't continue to support or follow Inkatha if he did get a chance to listen to Mthimkulu campaigning for or mobilising for his party. So he destroyed Inkatha. To add, Mthimkulu was in front in the structure which was used by the ANC to sow within the KwaZulu Police. When referring to sowing in the KwaZulu Police, the ANC had KwaZulu Police, which it used within us at the police station. They were used to collect information regarding the hit squads. They were used as a source of ammunition and they used to attack us with our own ammunition. Maybe I will deal with that as soon as I get into the involvement of other police. However, Mthimkulu was right in front of the whole strategy. And do you have knowledge of the killing of a person by the name of Nathi Gumede? --- Yes, I do. Did you actually hear my question? --- I didn't. Do you have knowledge of the killing of a person by the name of Nathi Gumede? --- Yes, I did. And can you tell us what your knowledge of that person's death was? --- Yes. As I have explained before, the violence between the ANC and the IFP in that place intensified, so some means or strategies had to be devised so that each or one of the organizations should defeat the other. I want to make it clear that the ANC knew exactly its target within the Inkatha people, as we also knew the people who were attacking us from the ANC. And it was possible that you wished the particular person should be hit by a car and die, because he was a /troublesome 1B troublesome person. You wished that if there was a way to bewitch him you could bewitch him so that bees can come and sting him and he dies. Therefore, the two organizations have to use whatever means possible to destroy the other, or the enemy. Nathi Gumede was used in the ANC strategy to destroy our syndicate and specifically to arrest us and put us in prison, to expose the formation that I've mentioned before. Nathi went out and created lies, saying that Romeo had robbed him of his car. I don't know if I'm making a mistake. I don't know whether he said he robbed him of his car or that Romeo had robbed another person of his car, and the car was given to Nathi, and we knew that this was a lie - it didn't happen. We showed that it doesn't involve Romeo. However, we knew that they were very much afraid of Romeo and they were very much afraid of us because they knew that we were the people who were hitting them. After Romeo was charged of this crime he had to be suspended from work. This was a charge of robbing a car. Most people got angered of this, because we knew that Romeo didn't rob any car. They were framing him as they also framed me, saying that I killed someone at the railway hostels, and I knew that I wouldn't just kill a person. This was something that I wouldn't have done. They were just trying to get me arrested. When they started using this strategy, maybe we were not going to be serious about this. Romeo was suspended from work after his arrest. It became clear to us because they are not in a position to kill us, they will finish us using the strategy of framing us, because we would all end up in prisons. Because each and every time they would frame someone, they had enough evidence to make sure that /we would be 1B we would be convicted for such crimes - crimes relating to robbery and other things. Unfortunately, we are not involved in such kind of crimes. We went to report this matter at Ulundi to Captain Langeni. Captain Langeni asked me about this Nathi, as to who he was and what we knew about him. We explained to him that we don't know Nathi. It became clear that he is an ANC member, who is furthering the aims and objectives of the ANC. The first instruction that we got with regard to Nathi was that we, as police, we should go and investigate, to find out the root cause of this, to find out where he comes from, to which organization does he belong, because we didn't even know his affiliation. We did that. We had to contact different and many sources of information. One of them was Andile Cele, who has passed away. We ended up cracking the root cause of knowing Nathi. We found that he was a member of the ANC and even his relatives were working for organizations like COSATU, who were aligned to ANC. At times, when we went there, we would find cars which we knew belonging to Bongani and other members of the ANC. They were at his home, and we came to realize that he's really doing something, not that the arrest of Romeo is not just the kind of job that he did, the only job that he did. I personally - Captain Langeni sent me alone as to whether maybe they were fighting over a woman and I discovered that there wasn't such a thing. After having discovered this information from Andile Cele about Nathi's involvement and discovering as to the aim to eliminate our syndicate, which was going to disturb the Inkatha power, a time came when we had to be called to Ulundi with Romeo. We went to Madlanduna. We didn't /start with 1B start with Madlanduna, we went to houses known as Emofloteni, where the Legislative members stay, and we met Mrs Mbuyazi, who was at Ulundi at that time, and she was working at Nongoma as a teacher. We took a small car from her, which was a Toyota. We used the car to go to Daluxolo Luthuli. Although it was not usually said, His Highness wanted to see us. That was Prince Gideon Zulu. At that time he was the Minister of Pensions. Madlanduna called the Minister and the Minister recommended that we should come to see him. I, together with Madlanduna and Romeo, went to his house and, to be brief, I will say that at the Minister's house we had a meeting. We were outside the house, not inside. We were just on the lawn. In that meeting there was Umtwanakaminyo - that's Prince Gideon Zulu - his driver by the name of Nyawose, Romeo, Madlanduna and myself and Prince Gideon's son. I don't know his name. He was there. That's where we discussed the arrest of Romeo. The Minister got angered by this and he said that this ANC, even though we try all ways to frighten them, they don't get frightened. Therefore, he suggested that Nathi should take the first bus, and he was angry, saying, "Why did you leave him for such a long time?", and Madlanduna also turned against us in front of the Minister, saying, "I don't know why these guys are so relaxed, doing nothing". We explained that Nathi is not staying at that place. He is now staying in Durban, and we don't have cars to go and do the work and we can't use our own cars. The Minister said he'll organize a car. Sorry to interrupt you at this stage. When you say the Minister said he would organize a car, can you just tell us which Minister that was. What portfolio did he /hold? --- 1B hold? --- He said he's going to organize a car. That was Prince Gideon Zulu, the one that I've already explained was a Minister of Pensions and Welfare in the KwaZulu Government. After having told him about the problem of transport to Durban, he said he will personally organize a car for us to go to Durban, in order to make Nathi to take the first bus. He got into the house and made a telephone call. He said he was going to contact Mathe to find out if he can't organize a car. When coming out from the house he didn't say we should go and collect a car from Mathe, he said we should go to Robert Mzimela's house. Robert Mzimela was a Secretary of the Legislature in KwaZulu. He said he had already talked to Mzimela and he will give us a car. Before we leave he said we have to combine this task of eliminating Nathi with another task which we were supposed to do at Eshowe. He said Eshowe, in the place called Gezinsila, it's rotten because of one person who is a male nurse with the surname Nxumalo. He mentioned his name. However, I don't remember. I only remember the surname, which he said it was Nxumalo. He said he himself, together with Nyawose, are getting attacked at that place because of this one person who was a male nurse with the surname of Nxumalo, and he said we have to go to Eshowe and we'll be given information there from one of his sons, and he said we were going to collect a firearm from his son at Eshowe. However, we didn't get such a firearm at Eshowe. We left and went to Robert Mzimela's house. Nyawose was present, together with Madlanduna. Mzimela gave us ... [end of tape] ... 2A ... saying that we should handle the car with care and he said he knew that police can drive and, when driving cars, /they drive as 2A they drive as if like they are driving vans. We promised that we won't drive this one as though we are driving a van and we will treat it with care. We drove the two cars, went back and dropped Madlanduna at his house and we took the car to Mrs Mbuyazi at the flats. We got into the Monza which was given to us, and we left, and we made it possible to kill Nathi, using that very same car which was given to us. If we can proceed further, what did you then do? --- The someone from Eshowe, this Nxumalo, the male nurse, we tried to attack him. There was violence at Gezinsila. Soldiers were deployed in the area. The SAP were deployed in the area and also the KwaZulu Police, and the Nyalas, which were armoured vehicles, and we discovered that the whole place was patrolled by securities. Therefore unlawful firearms like AK-47 we couldn't smuggle then in and out of the place easily. We had to go and leave them with one teacher with the surname of Mbambo at Gezinsila. We drove and met him. He was driving a blue Corolla. He was driving towards the hospital and he had some young boys inside the car. We dropped Hlongwane and Israel to run to the front of him. I would say he was very lucky because at that moment soldiers came and the whole mission was ... (inaudible) ... and we left him and went back to - went to Nathi, and that was at night. We found Nathi. We took him. We came back with him. We found him at Brickfield in an Indian area. However, we had a problem on the way, because on our way it was difficult for us to ask him as to who was involved in the structure, as to who did this and who came with the suggestions, so we couldn't get information from /him. We 2A him. We were not able to ask him this because at the time when we took him from Brickfield we had to hide from him that he was going to be killed. We told him that we are investigating in which he was involved. It was a case which involved a car and a case or the place where it happened it was at Esikhaweni. We told him to take the logbook and he took the logbook, and we left with him, and under that impression we left with him while we knew that we had our own intentions, and it so happened that we had to ask him on the way about his strategies. INTERPRETER Sorry, he's saying they didn't get a chance to ask him because he was thinking that they were police. --- We thought that as soon as we approach our own area out of Durban or out of the way we were going to make him board the first bus. We said we would be able to ask him questions in the forest - ask him to give us the whole information, because we intended that as soon as he gives us the information all the people who were involved in the plot they should also be made to board the first buses. However, it didn't happen that way, and when he saw us getting into the bush area down at Port Dunford he realised that we were going to kill him, and then he started to struggle and fight. He was fighting seriously and you'd think we were fighting against three men. During the fight so we had to shoot him. He wasn't armed. However, he would grab one of us and use that person to fight against us. Therefore it was difficult for us to shoot him, because it was possible that we could hit one of us. However, we managed to overcome him. Unfortunately we didn't get the details which we wanted from him and since he was fighting we had to kill him as /quick as 2A quick as possible, and we left him there. When we were getting into the car, I don't remember among us who suggested that we should do the very same method which is employed by the ANC, the method of burning our people, so that when they found him they shouldn't suspect that it's Inkatha who killed him. They will think it's the ANC, so let's burn him as they also burn our people and necklace them. Therefore we drained petrol from the car and we poured sand over him and we also poured petrol over him. We burnt him and left him. MR MACADAM Was there any reason why this could not have been done in the Durban area, where you first kidnapped the deceased? --- We were afraid that if we were to kill him in Durban this case will not be investigated by us if they happen to discover his corpse. It was to be investigated by the South African Police and we knew that Brigadier Mzimela is the one who is supposed to do the cover-ups for us, that in whatever we do we shouldn't be arrested. Therefore Mzimela wouldn't have the access or the jurisdiction in Durban to do the cover-up's. Therefore we have to take him to our own jurisdiction, where we knew that the case would be investigated by the KwaZulu Police, and we thought that was the safest way to do it. What position exactly did Brigadier Mzimela hold? --- He was a District Commandant. His offices were at Esikhaweni and he was in charge of five police stations - the KwaMsane Police Station, Bongilwane Police Station, Sundumbili Police Station and Esikhaweni Police Station and also Damanani Police Station. And moving on to another aspect, do you have /knowledge of 2A knowledge of an Inkatha Freedom Party rally, which took place in the Esikhaweni area and which was disrupted by members of the African National Congress? --- You mean an Inkatha member? [Break in recording] --- Oh. Yes, I have information. Can you tell us what transpired there? --- I don't remember when it was in 1992 and there was a rally. It was an Inkatha rally. One of the speakers who was present was Gideon Zulu. During that particular day I was on duty and I was wearing camouflage uniform and we were doing the vehicle patrol and we heard people shouting from the stadium. There were sounds of guns and it was rapid firing from automatic weapons. Even our dignitaries have to crawl on the ground on their stomachs. Can you tell us who the dignitaries were? --- The leaders were there, but those whom I want to mention it's Gideon Zulu, Prince Gideon Zulu, and also the chiefs were there, Inkosi Mathaba from Inyoni, and others. Two young men entered the ground. They were ANC men, and they started shooting at those people who were there. People started running away. Some were injured on their legs. Some were running and falling into the pits as they were being fired at from behind. Therefore this angered the Prince. We ran to the place, myself and other policemen, and we couldn't find anyone because the young men ran away. Even up to today they have not been arrested. Umtwanakaminyo said to me that we should take drastic steps with regard to this incident. While saying this he was brushing his big tummy after having woken up from the ground where he was crouching, and he said that this has /angered him 2A angered him and he said we have to change our strategy. He said we shouldn't concentrate on these missions where we have to eliminate one target and they said we should do exactly what they did to us. We have to hit them at bus stops, at their meetings, inside buses, if we knew that they were ANC people and they were going to a particular place, so that they can stop what they were doing, because they disrupted the meeting or the rally which then didn't continue. Who exactly was this person who said these things? --- [No audible reply] Can you tell us what position that person held or what his full names were. I might have been mistaken, but I thought you just used one word as a name for this person. --- It is Prince Gideon Zulu. He was the Minister of Welfare of KwaZulu Government and he was also from the KwaZulu Kingdom. He was a member of the central committee of the Inkatha. If you could proceed now to tell us what you did after these things were said. --- Mrs Mbuyazi said, "Mageba, we are going to have a meeting tomorrow". We had that meeting at the council chamber in Hlanganani Hall, which is in Esikhaweni. In that meeting we were trying to devise strategies as to how we strategise, therefore it so happened that his words - I'm referring to Gideon Sifiso, that we had to change our strategy, and we agreed that we have to change the strategy. We are not only going to attack prominent leaders, so we will be hitting at random and hit anyone - anyone who is associated with the African National Congress. It was said that we have to eliminate them. And his words helped us in our strategy and it came /into operation. And we move on to another matter. Sergeant Khumalo of the KwaZulu Police was killed. Do you have any knowledge of that case? --- Yes, I know. What happened there? --- The reason why Sergeant Khumalo was killed is because he used to steal dockets at the Esikhaweni Police Station - dockets containing information - or I will put it in this way - dockets which were opened and relating to the deaths of ANC members, who were killed by our hit squad. As I have mentioned before that the ANC have sown it's own police within the KwaZulu Police, they had people who they would use as their contact, who worked in disguise. They were people whom we used to chat and laugh with and we were not able to find out about their involvement. It so happened that we discovered what was happening. Khumalo was one of those policemen who would take particulars or information and supply it to the ANC. However, the main reason why he had to be killed was because of the dockets he stole and took them to the ANC leadership. Those were serious documents, because they were relating to our work - our syndicate or hit squad. They were dockets involving the death or covering the death of ANC people. So he tried to steal them and he gave them to certain members or leaders of the African National Congress. I would like to lie before the committee to say how we found out that Khumalo was involved - was doing what I have explained. However, it must be remembered that we had a structure called BSI. In /the BSI /However, while 2A However, while she was busy talking on the phone, she called me and she gave me the receiver and said, "Here is Langeni" and referred to him as Njomani and said I must talk to him. Njomani, it's an explanation of a surname meaning Langeni. Captain Langeni said as he have already told us about Khumalo we have to confirm ourself how dangerous Khumalo could be and he asked us whether we knew what might happen if our hit squad could be exposed. Whether we are aware that they will arrest us up to our leader, prominent leaders, and I agreed, saying that, yes, I can see that. He said we have to find a way - establish as to where the documents were and also the amount of information which has been leaked out. However, we should leave this with him and he said what we have to do as soon as we left, we should make sure that as soon as possible Sergeant Khumalo should board the first bus, before he destroys a lot of things. I took that as an instruction that Khumalo should be killed, and we ended up killing him. Madlanduna, did he have any knowledge or involvement in this case? --- I'm not sure. I wouldn't like to say something which I don't know. Can I just take you back to the previous incident - the attack on the bus after the IFP rally. Are you in a position yourself to describe briefly how that attack on the bus took place? --- The bus attack came as a result of the instruction given by Prince Gideon Zulu, that we should stop hitting single targets. Because of his involvement we should direct our attacks at groups of people. We should hit their buses which they used to go to meetings or rallies. We should hit them at their /streets. Let 2A streets. Let me put it like this before the Commission. At Esikhaweni there were demarcations. The place was divided into areas. Therefore Inkatha people couldn't go to an ANC area and it was known that the boundary it's along that particular area and this area for the ANC and that other area is an IFP area only. And because of the war you always know that this particular person belonged to this particular organization. So when the Prince said, Umtwanakaminyo, the Prince, we should attack them at their bus stops, we knew that the stops at that particular area belonged to the particular organization and we knew that this particular shop the only people who go there to buy are these people from particular organizations and also the shebeens we knew that members of a particular organization frequent that particular shebeen, and we knew that those shebeens were belonging or were used by a particular people from particular organizations. People were divided in such a way that you have to ascertain whether you were drinking with your people from your own side or you are travelling with people in buses from your own side or not, so you have to be careful. So that's how the place was divided, and also the sections were divided. This made it easy for the ANC to know that if they attack J2 section, even the cat that is going to be killed belongs to Inkatha, and we also knew that if you attack a particular place - for example, there was a place called Emakhlandeleni, you wouldn't find any person belonging to any particular group except the ANC members. The strategy which has been started by Umtwanakaminyo had to work and it was going to be effectively employed because we knew the areas where the ANC people live and we also knew their /bus stops and 2A bus stops and our bus stops too. Are you in any position to indicate how many people were killed in this process that you've described? This random retaliatory attack. --- Do you mean the attack on the bus? Yes. --- Not many people died there. We discovered that only one person died and the others were injured. We didn't have enough equipment to use. We only threw a hand grenade into the bus and we shot at the bus two rounds and we left. We were standing on the sides of the road at the stop called KwaGundani. ANC members, when they got injured, they were not going to report to the KwaZulu Police because they knew that if they go to report at the KwaZulu Police we will be happy and they also knew that they would lose their support, because that will be rumoured that they have been hit. Therefore they went to report the matter at Empangeni. However, we discovered that many people were injured and one person died. Finally, at a certain stage you came to be arrested by members of the South African Police for certain of your unlawful activities. --- That's correct. Did you or anybody else make any attempt to be arrested at all? --- Yes, that's correct. After I left the course - we had a course at Tongaat - it was a police course. After completing the course, I went back to Esikhaweni. I was told that as a fact from Neville Melville. I don't remember well, but I think he was a police reporter at that time. He had arrived at Brigadier Khomo Mzimela ... (intervention) /Thank you. The South African Police Murder and Robbery Unit? /--- Yes, 2A --- Yes, that's correct. He said he had a docket which was opened with regards to my involvement in the killing of people. He said he will be coming to Nqutu to talk to me. I asked him when was he coming and he said he will be coming on the very same day or on the following day, and it was a Friday. It was August 1993. I told him that he shouldn't come on that particular day, which was Friday and also he shouldn't come on the week-end because I had some plans. There was something I had to go and do at my home. We agreed that he would come on the following week. I left the station commander's office. The moment I was getting out of the office, just outside and I was moving towards the barracks I came across Constable Mbambo - Constable Patrick Mbambo was stationed at Ulundi. He was in the LA Protection Unit, which was under Captain Langeni. This constable was an ex-Caprivi trainee. He was also present when we were training to become police. I was also surprised to see him at Nqutu, because I knew that he was based at Ulundi. I tried to greet him, but he said I should go straight to the gate. It came to my mind that there is something and he said, "You should rush to the gate and you will find Nicky". Nicky was a code name, which was used by the Caprivians, referring to Madlanduna. As I was approaching the gate, I saw Madlanduna coming towards me - slowly walking towards the police station. He didn't enter. He was passing the gate, going towards the garage - the filling station which was near the police station. Our eyes met and he signalled to me that I should turn to the left and proceed towards the filling station. I did that without having communicated with him verbally. When I arrived at the garage, to which I was /instructed by 2A instructed by him to go I found a Sierra which was blue in colour. It was written - it's registration number was ZP555 - and I realised that he was referring me to that car. As I was approaching the car, I could see inside that there was Constable Isaac Shobe ... [end of tape] 2B ... at the KwaZulu Police. However, he was stationed at Ulundi at the time I was stationed at Esikhaweni. As I was approaching this car, he signalled to me and - he has since died. He signalled to me to get into the car and I entered the car. Madlanduna also came and he got into the car, and also Patrick Mbambo. We drove away. We took the main road in the direction to Ulundi. Madlanduna said the white people are behind me and it's possible I will be arrested as soon as possible, and he had been sent by Captain Langeni to come and fetch me in order to decide what they were going to do about my matter. I said, "Are you just going to pick me like this?". He said, "Yes, we have to go". I said to them, "I haven't made any arrangement. I thought I will be going to my birthplace during the week-end", and the way I was dressed I had nothing. I don't know when I'm going to come back. Madlanduna said to me, "You know the life of a soldier". I tried to insist that we should turn so that I can take some few things - clothes and some toiletries. They agreed and made a U-turn and went back. I went to Lieutenant Masinga and I stayed there since there was place for me at the barracks, because I was only to go to Dundee maybe at the week-end. I went in, took some street clothes and toiletries. I got into the car and we left - went straight to Ulundi and we went to Madlanduna's office, which was in A. Madlanduna made a call to Captain /Langeni. Captain 2B Langeni. Captain Langeni was in the Legislative Assembly. They talked on the phone and agreed that we will meet in the evening. On that very same evening I, myself, with Madlanduna, with Mbambo - I am not referring to the Mbambo who is here today, I'm referring to Patrick Mbambo - we went to look for Captain Langeni in his office. We were told that he had already left and we didn't find him. We had to call him. However, on that particular night we agreed that we are going to meet at Constable Mbambo's house. It was in D, if not C Section. I would say it was in D Section, because the houses were near each other. It was dark, somewhere around 7 o'clock, and we left with Madlanduna. We saw a car which was approaching and Captain Langeni was standing somewhere there and we proceeded to Captain Mbambo's place and we entered. The car followed us. Inside the car he was with Minister Mzimela. Not the Mzimela to whom I referred as a District Commander at Esikhaweni. It is this Mzimela who was the Secretary to the KwaZulu Legislature - his name was Robert Mzimela. They entered Patrick Mbambo's house, and we had a meeting there regarding my matter. A suggestion came out that I should be taken to hide - I'm not going to refer to Inkatha hidings, because the witness yesterday mentioned the hidings at Venda, Mkhuze and other places, where they could have hid me. I could say even at Johannesburg, where they once hid Madlanduna there. I refused to go into hiding. I said I'm not prepared to run for the rest of my life, running away from the police. I told them I am also police. I also told them that the Government has all my information. Therefore I can't leave on the run. I knew that I couldn't stay away from /my children /"Muti". The 2B "Muti". The following morning - it was on Saturday - I myself, with Madlanduna, drove to Lindelani, look for Tshabalala to give us the, "Muti", because Captain Langeni told us that he will talk to him on the phone and we will just get to his place. We got to Lindelani and his wife told us that we left him at Nongoma. He was not at home and we passed through Hammarsdale. From Hammarsdale we left in the evening and we went to Pietermaritzburg and we came back late that night and we drove back to Ulundi. We reported to Captain Langeni that we failed to get to Tshabalala or find Tshabalala. Langeni promised that he would trace him. After that there had been some cases at Esikhaweni where firearms were found at Mrs Mbuyazi and we have to come to Durban during a week-end with Mrs Mbuyazi and we have to go back to Ulundi. We are sitting very long - yes, no, I thought the witness was going to finish with arrest, and I expected to finish at about 1.15. If we could take the adjournment. The evidence is longer than I anticipated. MR WILLS CHAIRMAN We will adjourn till 2.15. LONG ADJOURNMENT / ON RESUMPTION 2B ON RESUMPTION BRIAN GCINA MKHIZE (Still under former oath) CHAIRMAN MR MACADAM NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM MR (?) I have just one clarifying question to ask. I heard you in the beginning say that your participation in these activities was not a voluntary one. Is that what you said? --- I was trying to explain that I didn't on my own decide to kill people at Esikhaweni. I'm saying this because of what I've said before, that Madlanduna came to me, telling me that I am wanted at Ulundi. In other words, you participated willingly and volition and because of your loyalty to IFP? You were not at any time under pressure to participate from your superiors? --- I would say this in two ways, as I have explained before. What could happen to a person who is given full information, a person who has been informed about the hit squad's activities or clandestine activities as we call them, as to what will happen to that particular person if he doesn't respond positively, as an ordinary /person I had the 2B person I had the very same fear. Thank you, I just wanted to clarify your volition in this matter. Thanks. CHAIRMAN MR VISSER MR WILLS CHAIRMAN MR WILLS Thank you. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS / CHAIRMAN 2B CHAIRMAN MR VISSER [Break in recording] ... strikes me as strange. I had better repeat that. I want to put something to you that strikes me as strange. We were given to understand during these hearings that the Caprivi trainees went to be trained and that at least a part of them were trained as an offensive group and that having a special meaning, namely to be hit squads. Do you follow that? --- I did not hear the question. The interpreter started the question in the middle. Could you please repeat the question? Thank you. I will repeat the question. The perception has been given during the hearing of this committee that the Caprivi trainees, or at least a part of them, were trained as an offensive element, namely to operate as hit squads. Did you hear that evidence? --- Yes, I do know that we were divided in the middle. There were some for counter-mobilisation, defensive, as well as offensive and VIP guards. I am well aware of that. Let me ask you specifically. Do you say that in your opinion you were sent to the Caprivi to be trained as hit squads? --- That is true. /All 200 of 2B All 200 of you or only the offensive group? --- All the 200 who were sent to Caprivi. There isn't even a single one of them who is not capable of killing and there isn't a single one who hasn't been specifically trained to do the same job that I was doing. So I understand your answer to mean you were all really trained as hit squad operatives. Am I correct in assuming that? --- That is correct. Will you please explain what the purpose then was to divide one group into a group called, "Offensive unit"? --- I have already explained. I think I said that yesterday. I think it was mainly for flexibility, so that if you come across a situation that needs you to be well-dressed and be a gentleman and mobilize people or be a public speaker you can be able to do that, as well as canvass members for your political group and if the situation called for you to represent your group when there are newspaper reporters, you can be able to answer certain questions or specific questions that tend to favour your political group. And with regard to the intensive training that I referred to yesterday, it was done to equip the people with the necessary knowledge so that they could be able to counteract certain situations that they found themselves in, so that they could be able to defend themselves and fight, and protect themselves as well as other members of that group if they were needed to do that. That is the defensive. I am sorry, I didn't ask you to go through the whole evidence again of explaining the different groups. I'm simply asking you one question. What is the purpose of having had an offensive group if there was no difference /among the 2B among the various groups as far as your main purpose was concerned, and that was to be hit squad operatives when you came back? --- If you are asking me specifically with regard to the offensive I will not be able to answer that question because I was not trained to be on the offensive side. I was on counter-mobilisation. Let me put it in another way. How many of the 200, according to your knowledge, participated in hit squad activities? --- I do not have that knowledge, but according to me during that situation, that is the fight between Inkatha and the African National Congress, that number was far too small. It was minimal. Inkatha was supposed to train a lot of people if they were to fight the ANC. Well, the suggestion on the papers had been made /that apparently MR WILLS /to the effect 2B to the effect that later as he was - he used the word, "Promised" a certain other Caprivian by the name of Zweli Dlamini, who was sent, came to join them. On that basis I think the question is unfair. MR LAX MR VISSER /training or 2B training or not. Isn't that the truth of the matter? --- Where would I have acquired the skills from to do the job that I have explained to this Honourable Commission, had I not been trained or specifically trained? /mentioned in And Browning 9mm pistols? --- From the Police Force at the Police College. /the only purpose 2B the only purpose of the training. I wish to remind you on that aspect that you yourself were involved in trying to make us give false information to the Goldstone Commission. We did that because we were scared for our lives. Even besides that we were paying our alliance to the group to which we were affiliated. CHAIRMAN Please don't laugh or talk amongst yourselves. MR VISSER CHAIRMAN Please don't interrupt the witness. MR VISSER /their families MS SOOKA MR VISSER Yes. MS SOOKA MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR MARITZ Thank you. These are very rough figures. I don't have them exactly, but I imagine that there was something like about 30 VIP protection group trainees, some 30 defensive and some 30 offensive, and the rest of them, including yourself was contra-mobilization. Does that /accord with 2B accord with your recollection? --- Yes, I did say that I don't have the exact figures as to how many there were in each group, but you are at liberty to create your own figures. Now, I mention the figures, because my recollection is that there were about 100 trainees who eventually fell into the contra-mobilization group. Is that correct? --- This is the second time I'm hearing about this. Yesterday I heard about 114 or the day before yesterday. This is my first time to hear this number. I don't know about tomorrow. Maybe I'll hear a different number as well. [Break in recording] ... exact numbers. I'm just trying to get parameters. I'm not fighting with you. I just want to understand whether you appreciate that the contra-mobilization group was by far in the majority - at least half of all the trainees. Is that correct? --- That I know explicitly well and I have explained it to this Commission. You've already testified that when you returned from the Caprivi from your training, you were deployed to go and do exactly the job for which you were trained, namely contra-mobilization. Correct? --- That is correct. The other members of the contra-mobilization group, do you know whether they were also deployed in the manner that you were? --- No, I don't know their whereabouts. [Break in recording] ... their whereabouts. Do you know whether they were deployed. --- I was only deployed with four others. We were four in number. Two of them are alive, but one has since died. /asking you 3A asking you questions, that you referred to the fact that the Caprivians were deployed all over the KwaZulu. Was that impression correct? --- I think that's a right picture you have, or impression, because it has been explained to this Commission that the offices were put or were structured all over KwaZulu/Natal, so people were sent to those various offices throughout KwaZulu/Natal. I'm just taking it a bit further and it's this. Can you say, even if it's hearsay, from knowledge that you gained in the years or the months or for ever how long you did this work that the other fellow-trainees in the contra-mobilization who were deployed were deployed precisely to do contra-mobilization as you had been instructed to do? --- From 1986, when we returned from Caprivi up till 1988 where I was moved from contra-mobilization duties to infiltrate the SAP. You will remember that I had explained that I was train in Cape Town. The order was over of working according to the skills of contra-mobilization. From Cape Town I was deployed in Pietermaritzburg and I was functioning under different orders from the contra-mobilization, up till the time when I was trained as a police and then I was working according to standing orders of the SAP, of the police, and I was deployed in Esikhaweni under the police order, up till 1991, when I was given another order, the second one now, which did not need the skills of the contra-mobilization, but the skills that I gained when I was receiving the intensive training. Please understand, I'm not quarrelling with you. I heard the evidence. I'm not quarrelling with it. What I want to know is in the few months before you went for your /training at 3A training at Koeberg, when you were deployed to do contra-mobilization, all I'm asking you is whether you know or whether you suspect or whether you heard from other people, then or now or later, it really doesn't matter, whether all your fellow trainees, who were trained in contra-mobilization, were deployed in KwaZulu, as you were. That's all I am asking you, nothing else. --- You mean deployed at what time or when? When you were deployed. Look, you were in the region of 100 people that were trained in contra-mobilization. You've already explained that when you returned you were deployed precisely for that purpose, to do contra-mobilization. All I want to know is do you have any knowledge at all - whether it's acquired knowledge or personal knowledge - that the other members of the contra-mobilization group were similarly deployed in KwaZulu for the same purpose? --- Your Honour, you were not quite clear, but I just said that offices were structured in different areas of KwaZulu/Natal and those members of contra-mobilization were deployed to those respective offices. That's the question I thought I had already explained to you. I'm just taking it a bit further and that is this. Were they then deployed, as far as you know, for the same purpose that you were deployed, namely to go and do contra-mobilization? Not some other job. Not murdering people, but to go and do contra-mobilization? --- That is true. Now, can you assist this panel at all in regard to the offensive group ... (intervention) --- May you please repeat that question? /The question is 3A The question is this, can you assist the panel at all in the initial deployment and I am still in this same period, that's before you went to Koeberg but after you came back from the Caprivi, can you assist this panel as to what happened to the offensive group and the defensive group, whether they were deployed - in which manner they were deployed? Do you have any knowledge about that? --- I don't have any knowledge as far as other groups are concerned or were concerned. Now, I think it's also no secret and I just wish to know whether you know this or not, is that very shortly or immediately after the return of the Caprivians to KwaZulu, the VIP protection group were immediately employed for that purpose. Do you know about that? --- That much I don't know. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARITZ MR VAN ZYL /the training 3A the training that I received from other groups, like basic training. There is intensive training as well and specialised training. The other military training, I received it when I joined the Police Force. Let me put it to you, the training which you received in the Caprivi, the whole of the training which you received there - in other words the basic training, the advanced and then also the specialist training - that consisted of ordinary prescribed Defence Force training, which any other member of the Defence Force at that stage and even today - and here I specifically refer to infantry training - would have received. The training which you received there in no way differed from any training which other members of the South African Defence Force received at that stage. Would you like to comment on that? MR LAX /training was 3A training was more or less the same, but there were certain special force elements in that training that were slightly different to what an ordinary infantry person would undergo. He made that quite clear. He felt some of it went beyond the normal infantry training, to sort of special course training, so the way you are putting the question is a bit misleading to that extent. MR VAN ZYL MR LAX Well, then I think you have to put it on that basis to him and make it clear that that's the basis you're putting it on. Because the way it's appearing is that that's on the evidence heard so far and I don't think that's fair. MR VAN ZYL /--- He 3A --- He was the political commissar. Did he never convey this to you? --- Telling us about his attitude? Is that your question? [Break in recording] --- I don't recall - I don't have any recollection of that - Madlanduna telling me about his attitude. I would then like to say the following. You testified that during the training you were told that the purpose of the training was to kill the ANC and all my clients who were involved in the training will deny that. --- It's fine even if they may repudiate all of that, but that won't shake me from what I've told this Commission so far. This is what I will even tell my God. /training, that 3A training, that it would be specifically applied on your return to Natal to kill people at random. --- Is that a question? It's a statement. Would you like to comment on it? --- You've said everything right. You see, the training I received had equipped me enough to kill people and if I hadn't received that kind of training I wouldn't be where I am today. What methods did you employ and the people who accompanied you and participated with you from 1991 onwards when you started killing people? What methods did you use? How did you do it? --- I will have to go back to explain how we killed people and who killed who. Is that where you want me to go? I can explain, but is that what you want me to do? To go back and explain all the details? Now whilst you are referring to the house /penetration issue 3A penetration issue, the training which you received in the Caprivi in that regard, here I would like to put it to you that that training had the following effect. When a building was penetrated or entered the sole purpose was not to kill everybody inside that building or house. --- We will be given a certain target and we will know our target, so there was no need to shoot indiscriminately, even killing people we were not instructed to kill. At times we will find other people, like Mrs Dlamini and the children who were present, but we left her and we hid when she was passing. We left her alone. We did not even kick her, for that matter, because we knew who we wanted. We wanted Dlamini, until we got hold of Dlamini. For clarity, I would like to put it to you that although it was mentioned during the training that house clearance or house penetration - that the training in this regard wasn't specifically aimed at entering into a home, but actually entry into a building and not exclusively penetration of a home. --- Why would we penetrate a building? Maybe you have a reason why you think we will penetrate a building, but I don't get it. Why would we penetrate a building? If you differentiate between a building or a home or a house. /against these 3A against these attackers, and to be able in certain circumstances so to act as to kill them? Would you agree with that? --- It's not clear. The question was not quite clear. I will repeat the question. In order to fulfil its protective role properly, such as for instance a function to be fulfilled by a policeman or a soldier or any person utilised for that purpose, namely to protect people or buildings from attacks, to protect them from attacks against their lives or their property, that these protective agents should be able to act properly and effectively, in order to prevent these attacks and this could mean that they should in certain circumstances have the capacity to kill the attackers, otherwise they wouldn't be able to perform this protective duty properly. --- What is your question, Sir? I'm making a statement. I'm making a statement and you can comment on it. Would you agree with the gist of my statement? --- If Inkatha knew that there were police who were trained to protect the community or people I do not think that there would be a need for Inkatha to train its own people. No, I'm no referring here to Inkatha. I made a statement, the gist of which is this. In order to be able to protect lives and property properly the person doing this protective work must have the necessary capacity to enable him to do so properly and effectively and this capacity includes the capacity in certain circumstances to kill people. Would you agree with that? --- No, I wasn't trained to protect. The kind of house penetration that I was trained on I explained it to this Commission. /That's the 3A That's the kind of penetration where we would approach a house where we know our target is in to kill, not to protect. I'm not talking about rescue here. I'm talking about going to kill a person who is inside the house. I have explained that explicitly clear to the Commission. And the entire ANC would have been destroyed by these 200 members, of which about 100 did counter-mobilization in offices? Is that what you're saying? --- If you may remember from yesterday, Madlanduna, who was my commander then, did say that according to his knowledge the training was still going to go on, but I don't want to dwell on that, whether it did continue or not, but I don't have any knowledge as to how many were going to be trained by IFP or whether they were trained, because if you remember quite well or if you know and follow the politics of this country, there were camps in Mlaba and Mkhuze. I don't want to embark on that, because that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm just giving you as broad a picture that you should be in a position to know that 200 people were not that much. Thank you, Chairperson. /NO FURTHER 3A NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ZYL Let me take it a little bit further then. At the time when you were recruited to join this special training in the Caprivi, approximately 200 people came together and I suppose from all over KwaZulu/Natal. Is that correct? --- That is true. You didn't go through any selection process. Is that right? --- That is true. And the only claim to fame was that you should be members of Inkatha? --- That is correct. There was a certain criterion that was used in the selection process. MR LAX He also mentioned yesterday that you were healthy or a fit person or something like that. MR DE VOS /from one 3A from one place? Sorry, in other words it's the beliefs of Inkatha that will determine their actions. Is that correct? Am I correct? --- Could you please repeat the question? It is the beliefs of Inkatha, the organization, that would determine their actions? --- That is correct. Each and every organization changes from time to time. At that time Inkatha was what was called, "Cultural liberation movement", and it has since changed. It is a political organization. It is a party, an opposing party. Because an organization is dynamic. It changes from time to time. It grows and it changes its ideologies. People who were loyal to Inkatha are the ones who are going to go along with the principles and ideals of the Inkatha as to when the leaders change or whether they do change, in /fact, the people 3A fact, the people who are loyal to the group are the people who will always abide by the rules and regulations of that particular political organization. /what you are 3A what you are implying? /I have done 3A I have done and that on its own gives me peace of mind and peace within myself. What is important is the situation under which I was living at that place where I was living and I had this blood of people on my hands, as well as their souls. Now what is important is for me to reinvoke my conscience once more to tell the people. I feel some sense of relief. 3B MR NTSEBEZA ... That it is not - even if he never gets out of gaol, if he never gets amnesty, he is only undergoing this exercise because it is self-healing for him. Now where do you get this thing that all the Zulus are saying the same thing, when he has said previously to that that what concerns him is that there are people here who should be coming here to this forum and taking advantage of this. I just don't understand you. MR DE VOS /reconciliation 3B reconciliation without the truth, because that would be highly superficial. Therefore everybody should come forward and tell their side of the story. There could be true reconciliation thereafter. At that stage you were under the command of the KwaZulu Police? That's when the murders occurred. --- Yes, I was working as a policeman. Now, why then - maybe you can help us out of the predicament. Why is the Army then being blamed for the Esikhaweni murders? MR MACADAM MR LAX /he wouldn't have 3B he wouldn't have been where he was today, so in a sense he does link the murders that he carried out to his training by the military. --- I wish to explain to this Commission that I've never said that the soldiers were killing people. I've spoken about myself, as well as the syndicate which was under my control, as well as the local leadership of Esikhaweni, superiors in Ulundi, the group with whom I was killing people. I have never spoken about the soldiers. MR DE VOS MR WILLS Sorry, that wasn't his evidence at all. Sorry, whose statement? He said in his evidence that he was told he was going to join the KwaZulu Police and that's the basis on which he agreed to go from Nhlungwane camp to the Caprivi, but he didn't say that when he was in the Caprivi. MR DE VOS I expressed myself wrongly then. The point I'm trying to make he was all out throughout under the impression that as soon as he's finished with his training he's joining the KwaZulu Police. MR LAX /evidence so far. 3B evidence so far. MR DE VOS I'm referring to paragraph 3 of his statement that was handed to us, where it is stated - he's telling about the man that he spoke to, "And he told me there were vacancies in the KwaZulu Police and they had received instructions from the President of the IFP to recruit loyal and faithful supporters of the IFP for KwaZulu Police. At that stage I did not know exactly what the job entailed, save that it was a job for the KwaZulu Police." That's the basic departure point of his evidence. MR LAX Yes, but that changed when he got to Caprivi and that's common cause at this stage. Everyone understands that. That's been the evidence so far. MR DE VOS MS SOOKA MR DE VOS /being trained. 3B being trained. Did you hear that? --- The objective or main aim of the training was always explained to us by the instructors. It was never hidden from us as to why we were being trained. They told us that we were being trained to fight the ANC. I did explain that and I think I did clarify it. Can you help me with another thing? If I understand you correctly, you were also told to hide from the police - you were told you should hide from the police, the police shouldn't find out about your identities and things like that. Is that correct? --- I've never said that. In Caprivi. You did say it. --- There were no police at Caprivi so there was no need to hide anything. Sorry, maybe we misunderstand each other. I thought you said you were trained up in the Caprivi - you were trained, you were told, "Look, when you come back to KwaZulu you should not be detected by the police. You should hide". Is that right? Is that what your evidence was? --- How were we were going to survive if our names were not known, because we were living and working within our own communities? What I said was the secret with regard to the training, not with regard to identities. Maybe Luthuli is the one who spoke about the changing of the names, because the instructors changed their names to JJ, Kloppies, as well as Kevin. I never talked about our own identities being changed. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. In other words, you should keep quiet about the fact that you received training in Caprivi. That was the main purpose why - it shouldn't be disclosed? Is that right? --- Yes, that was a secret. That is the place at which we underwent the /training, as 3B training, as well as the aims of the training. These were the most important things. Even the type of kind of training that we received when we were at the Caprivi Strip. These were the two main things that we were supposed to keep out of the reach of other people. [Break in recording] ... there's no question about the fact that your training was legal because at one stage Brigadier Mathe also visited you up there. Am I right? MR LAX MR DE VOS We've been through this the whole year last year. There's a court finding on this point. It is legal. There is nothing prohibited in this. CHAIRMAN MR STEWART MR LAX MR DE VOS /training up 3B training up in the Caprivi was legal. It was lawful. They were entitled to give you this type of training. What do you say about that or can't you comment? --- I've got absolutely no comment. I think you know more about the South African law, but I can just be brief and tell you this that it comes as a surprise to me as to why we had to carry AK-47s in South Africa, because, according to my knowledge, as well as the police training that I received, was that such ammunition was not allowed at this time. / MR NTSEBEZA 3B MR NTSEBEZA Is that your client's instruction? MR DE VOS That's my client's instruction. MR NTSEBEZA Let me get that clearly for the record. Are you instructed on the clients' version about what arms they were instructed about? He has said to us the way they were given only AK-47s there. Now are your instructions that only AK-47s can be used to train people or were available at the time, which is why those were used? Are those your instructions? MR DE VOS That's not my instructions. MR NTSEBEZA What are your instructions? MR DE VOS We were not there. None of my clients was in the Caprivi involved with the training. We were the higher echelon at that stage. It was delegated to some other people, some other groups, to do the training with the available weaponry they had at that stage. We didn't plan the training itself. We were only involved in the top structure to say that people should be trained. MR NTSEBEZA Are your clients conceding that AK-47s were used there or are they contesting that? MR DE VOS We are not contesting that but we say that various other weapons was also used. MR NTSEBEZA So what is your point? MR DE VOS /and for no 3B and for no other reason whatsoever. MR NTSEBEZA So can we accept in this Commission, as your clients' instructions, that they deliberately used AK-47 rifles for the training in Caprivi because it was for security reasons and that is why they supplied AK-47s and AK-47s only. MR DE VOS I never used the word, "Deliberately". I said they were not even there. We say that we don't deny that they were trained in AK-47s but ... (intervention) MR NTSEBEZA What are you testing then? What are you testing with your questions? MR DE VOS With all due respect ... (intervention) MR NTSEBEZA MR COETZEE If I may say something as also part of the legal representatives that appear on behalf of the clients, I think it is highly irregular and unfair that counsel be cross-examined on what their instructions are and on what basis cross-examination should take place. MR NTSEBEZA With due respect, I'm not cross-examining counsel. MR COETZEE I'm not finished my submission, if you don't mind. I take the exception to the manner that this is being dealt with. This is not fair proceedings to make /the allegation 3B the allegations and cross-examine senior counsel when they are trying to put cross-examination to a witness. MR NTSEBEZA Have you finished? MR COETZEE MR NTSEBEZA Now, now that you have finished, I say I need to know. I am not sitting here because I enjoy sitting here. I need to know what the case is that the senior counsel is putting to the witness. I have a duty to make sure also that what is being put to the witness is not confusing and misleading the witness. That's all I seek to know. I still insist to know what are your instructions. MR DE VOS Can I respond to that, if I may. MR COETZEE CHAIRMAN No ... [break in recording]. MR COETZEE I don't want this to turn into an unfortunate debate and I don't want any animosity between me and the panel. I am trying my best to contribute to these proceedings to the best of my ability. I definitely don't want to land up in a situation where there's any animosity between me and anybody on the panel. I am ... (intervention) MR NTSEBEZA What is your point? Just make your point, please. MR COETZEE CHAIRMAN No, you are not. Please let's hear what you have to say. MS SOOKA /cross-examining MR DE VOS Thank you. I am indebted to you. May I suggest at this stage, we've received notice that the KwaMakutha trial and exhibits will be handed in. Can I make a suggestion, that this Commission adjourns now, reads the record, because we've been in court for eight months, come back and then do it on the same basis, because I've got an awkward situation. It's been dealt with - training has been dealt with - evidence has been led. Everything has been dealt with. Now we are sitting in a situation that we must start afresh. With all due respect, it's not fair. It's not fair in the sense that this Commission must make a decision that will affect the history of the country. You are trying to - and I mean I've got very great respect for what you're trying to achieve, to reconcile the people, to establish the truth, everything, but we are sitting in a predicament. For a week or two we are going to hear evidence from one side. You are not going to hear any evidence from us. You can't hear complete cross-examination from our side. It's - I think, personally - unfair to ask me, "Put instructions to /a witness", CHAIRMAN /in order to 3B in order to train them to provide protection for himself and his VIPs, as other members of counsel have done, because I don't see your line of cross-examination is really taking us much further. The witness is confused and we are also becoming confused. It seems to me that there are two very different opposite versions taking place here on either side of us and it would help us if you could put to him a version and ask him whether he agrees with it or not. MR DE VOS MR WILLS Obviously this affects my client. Possibly there's a misunderstanding as well, with the greatest respect to you, Sir. My client isn't up here as an expert on what South African Defence policy is. He's not an expert on military strategy. Basically, he's here because he has the urge to tell, to the best of his knowledge, what occurred in his own lifestyle and so, with the greatest respect, I don't think that he can take the issue as regards the higher strategy any further, and with the greatest respect to his evidence so far, I don't think he's attempted to do so. He's made one allusion or one - he's alluded to something which might have been responsible for the confusion, where he said that because of his training he wouldn't be sitting here, but I don't think his intention in that is to say that because of that the South African Defence Force is or is not responsible. /It's just 3B It's just a factual situation which has occurred in his life, but clearly he cannot take the matter of higher strategy between Ministers and Generals any further at all and I don't think he intends to do that. I think in his evidence, the whole of his evidence he has related to people who are pretty low down in the command chain. CHAIRMAN MS SOOKA MR STEWART /respects it's CHAIRMAN MR DE VOS May I then also request this Commission adjourn so the Commission first reads the KwaMakutha trial record? CHAIRMAN No, Sir, we will not adjourn. We will carry /on with the 3B on with the cross-examination now, and please don't clap. MR DE VOS "You were party to the provision of an offensive military capacity to Inkatha. This capacity was utilised offensively against the political enemies of Inkatha. You anticipated that the offensive para-military capacity would be used to carry out pro-active or pre-emptive attacks, which would result in death and injuries." That is the allegation made against my clients and the whole of the SA Defence Force. Now, may I now continue with my cross-examination? CHAIRMAN Yes, please. MR MACADAM /loaned to the CHAIRMAN MR WILLS My client has no objections. CHAIRMAN PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1997/08/08 /PROCEEDINGS RESUMED