special Chemical and Biological Warfare Hearings 1998-06-08 Cape Town 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56274&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/cbw/cbw5.htm MR VALLY That's correct Mr Chair. The next witness we are calling is Dr Mike Odendal. CHAIRPERSON Mr Polsen, you are representing Dr Mike Odendal as well? MR POLSEN Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Advocate Potgieter is going to swear Mr Mike Odendal in. MIKE ODENDAL (Duly sworn in, states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Potgieter. Mr Odendal, may I just remind you that if you are comfortable in Xhosa or Afrikaans or Sotho, but certainly in Afrikaans, we will have a translating facility, you are welcome to make use of it. Mr Vally? EXAMINATION BY MR VALLY MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Dr Odendal, do you have any statement you wish to read into the record? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY What are your qualifications? MR ODENDAL I'm a Veterinarian. I qualified in 1974 with a BSc from the University of Pretoria. In 1983 I got my MED degree in Bacteriology and then I could register as a specialist, as a Veterinarian. MR VALLY Is it correct to say you are both a Microbiologist as well as a Veterinarian? MR ODENDAL Yes, that is correct. MR VALLY How did you come to be employed at the Roodeplaat Research Laboratories? MR ODENDAL I and Dr Daan Goosen, we were colleagues, we studied together, we qualified at the same time. We worked at the same research institute at the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Pretoria. We were together for three years before he went to RRL and he offered me a job there too. MR VALLY What were you employed as - sorry, before that, when was this? MR ODENDAL This was in 1985. MR VALLY And how long did you work at RRL? MR ODENDAL MR VALLY What were you employed to do at RRL? MR ODENDAL Initially I had to establish microbiological capacities for the South African Defence Force. I knew it was a French organisation. I was trained as a Veterinarian and I worked with - we didn't work with viruses. I'm a trained Veterinarian working in microbiology and I concentrated on microbiology and my brief was to investigate the various organisms which could be used against our country, how to identify them, diagnose them, and also develop a limited offensive capability which could be used if it became necessary, because at that stage there was a war waging against the Angolans. MR VALLY You were aware that RRL was a front company? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Were you aware that it was controlled by the military? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Who was in charge of RRL? MR ODENDAL When I joined them Dr Danie Goosen was the Managing Director. MR VALLY What I want to know, is specifically what research you did at RRL? MR ODENDAL We had three types of projects, those were hard projects in which the Defence Force was interested. There were soft projects, that was for a commercial view, and there was also in-house projects. One of my briefs was to develop technology, that meant that any technology had to be developed which could be used to develop a defensive capability, as I've already said, a limited defensive capability. All the capability was my responsibility regarding microbiology. MR VALLY You mentioned hard projects, can you advise us what is meant by the term hard projects? MR ODENDAL Hard projects, one of those hard projects in which the Defence Force was interested was the development of a system which would entail all the organisms to be used in chemical warfare. MR VALLY So you developed various cultures? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Let's look at TRC 48, I believe you have that document. Do you have it in front of you? MR ODENDAL Yes, I have. MR VALLY Now, this seems to be a list of all the projects that - or some of the projects, rather, that RRL was involved in. Do you recognise this list at all? MR ODENDAL Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure that we're on the right place, are you speaking of page 1355? MR VALLY That's correct. MR ODENDAL You see, at Roodeplaat, we had different departments and the one department was physiology and that is this department, and I was only involved in microbiology, so the projects listed here one this page, I recognise some of them, but that's all. MR VALLY Were you involved in any of these projects on this page? MR ODENDAL No, not at all. MR VALLY What do you recognise there? MR ODENDAL Well, the Bovine Embryos, some aspects of quality assurance ...(intervention) MR VALLY Yes, just let's just stop there, you're talking about, did you say baboon embryo's? MR ODENDAL No, Bovine. MR VALLY Bovine, I beg your pardon. MR ODENDAL Yes, that's the first one, 10034. MR VALLY Alright. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vally, where are we? MR VALLY We're looking at TRC 48, the first page. CHAIRPERSON Oh, very well. MR VALLY What do you know about that research? MR ODENDAL No, nothing. MR VALLY But you know such research was done. MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Go on. MR ODENDAL To the next page ...(intervention) MR VALLY No, I want to know which other projects you are aware of on page 1355. MR ODENDAL Well, to be quite honest, I don't know anything of anything of those projects. CHAIRPERSON I thought the witness was saying that he had nothing to do with physiology? MR VALLY He did, Mr Chairperson, but he said he recognised some of the projects there. CHAIRPERSON Oh, you are just asking for him to recognise any, if there are any. MR VALLY That's correct. Let's move on to the next page, page 1356 which refers to biochemistry, what projects are you aware of there? MR ODENDAL There is only one project, the R1039, it's halfway down the list. MR VALLY I'm sorry, I missed that. MR ODENDAL The purification, R0139, the purification of the toxins. MR VALLY Will you please tell us about that? MR ODENDAL This project was a biochemistry project, but this regarding the purification of toxins. These toxins involved with the enzymes here whereof the specific group, this is one of the groups of organisms causing fatal diseases, because these clostridian profusions have five types, and you must just stop me if it becomes too technical ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Can I just establish if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs does have these documents, given their role? Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE Chairperson, I've got the document available in front of me, and apparently, or I'm told that we don't object if it's relevant ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Alright I just wanted to ...(intervention) MR ARENDSE If the Committee feels it's important or Mr Vally feels it's important for this to come out, then we don't have any objections. CHAIRPERSON No, I just wanted to look after your interests. MR ARENDSE Very pleased to hear that. MR VALLY Dr Odendal, without going into the technical detail, this involved the purification of certain toxins. MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Just give us some examples of the toxins. MR ODENDAL A produces an alpha toxin, now this is the cause of gas gangrene in people and also a condition such as red derm ...(indistinct), this has veterinary and medical implications. The other toxin is a better toxin (b), the other one, is gibsolon toxin of a type (c) which is responsible for a condition in sheep which we called poult kidney in sheep. So the reason for the purification of these toxins was to establish diagnostic tools to make a diagnoses, because we were not sure whether these toxins could be used for biological warfare or not. It is listed in the International Biohazardous Key, but we just did it in any case. MR VALLY Let's go on to the third page of this document. CHAIRPERSON Would that be 001357? MR VALLY That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VALLY Well sorry, I should turn over - there isn't much there - we go on to 13 - I assume it's 1358, the 8 is missing. This is where your name appears, Dr Odendal. Is that your name up there? MR ODENDAL That's correct, yes. MR VALLY Well, let's talk about some of the items referred to herein. MR ODENDAL If we start at the first one, NO34, Warmaconers(?) stands for the organism or the name of Hormonous Resina. It is a fungus type of organism which grows in aeroplane fuel and it causes a great deal of problems in the spraying aeroplanes of the Air Force, because polluted fuel can cause the aeroplane to crash, and we looked at methods of decreasing these organisms. The following one, or the next one is a project Septic Shock. In conjunction with an overseas researcher who came to do research at RRL quite often, I think he still comes on an annual basis to sister companies or another company, he developed a shock lung model in baboons which he used to develop certain therapeutic to test these measures, that is why he came to our country so often to do testing on baboons, and he developed this model. All that we did is that we took E-coli organisms and we grew this and gave it to him which he injected into the baboons, and they then developed this shock model ...(intervention) DR ORR Sorry, may I interrupt before we carry on. We had some confusion when we were speaking to Dr van Rensburg about the "begrooting" column, whether it was rands and cents, or rands. Could you perhaps clarify that for us? MR ODENDAL Yes, I think that would be R22 500,00. DR ORR Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON And at the end there it would been "totale inkomste vir RNL" that would be R10 million. MR ODENDAL I think that would be for RNL as a company. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but then is would be R10 million. Mr Vally? MR ODENDAL Shall I go on to the following project? MR VALLY Just before you go on to the next one, a septic shock lung I think you called it, these experiments were done on the premises? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY With baboons? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY And they would be injected with the live culture? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY And the results would be examined? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY For what purposes? MR ODENDAL Well, this very prominent overseas research worker or scientist was developing a model for specifically for application in humans for the treatment of lung shock, because after an accident normal, let's say a car accident, the first thing that happens is the patient goes into shock situation and this model was used to simulate the condition in humans. MR VALLY Let's go on to the next one. MR DU PLESSIS SKB Tande, that was just the company, Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises, they had over a thousand Alsatian dogs and during one of their vaccination trials, the dogs developed an enamel hypoplasia and to prove this we had to repeat the trial to demonstrate to the commercial company which supplied the vaccine that enamel hypoplasia took place, and this was the project. MR VALLY Let's go on, while I'm there, you know, you have project numbers there, some with "N's" before them, some with "R's" before them, some with "L's" before them, do those have any significance? MR ODENDAL Yes, the "N" project would be the projects, the commercial projects. The "R" project would be the hard project. MR VALLY I see, and the "R"? The "N" is commercial, the "R" is hard, ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL And the "L" would be an in-house development project. MR VALLY I see, sorry, please go on. MR ODENDAL Okay, the translocation 181, that was a similar project to the septic shock, the one was the production of the E-coli Endotoxin. With translocation the scientist tried to re-isolate the organisms from the different organs to sort of, to check the distribution of the gram negative organism, so we gave it another number, and we did it apart from the other one. Translocation means the movement from the organism from the bloodstream into the different organs. So after the experiment, this animal was euthenased and we did the isolations. MR VALLY Let's go on. MR ODENDAL R0012 was our culture collection in which the Defence Force had an interest. They requested us to develop and to establish a well rung culture collection. MR VALLY Let's just go back to the one before ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL Oh yes, 186, sorry, Pasteurella. MR VALLY Yes. MR ODENDAL This was Pasteurella Humalitica is an organism that causes pneumonia in cattle. It's one of the most devastating diseases, especially in fetlock cattle, and we developed a vaccine which was completely new to this country, the first type of vaccine of that nature in this country were developed, and it was done for a private veterinarian which contracted us to do this research work for him, and at this stage it is a registered vaccine in South Africa. MR VALLY Fine, we will come back to R0012 in more detail, that's a "versameling", a collection of various cultures as you put it. Let's go on to R0091. MR ODENDAL Okay, that's Bacillus Anthraces, which is Anthrax. Anthrax is one of the most common organisms used in biological warfare. I think the Americans, the British, Sadam Hussein, all the people have Anthrax in their collection, and the purpose of this project was to establish whether one could produce a strain of Anthrax that would be resistant to penicillin. MR VALLY We're going to come back to that as well in a short while. The next one, that's "L" with question marks. MR ODENDAL Okay, that aims - that stands for the aims test. The aims test is a test to test certain substances for carcinogenicity. This project didn't really get off the ground and we didn't give it any attention, but it was in our plan. MR VALLY Let's go on. MR ODENDAL L183, Gamoglobulin P and SKP is for horses, perde, en skape. We also had a project to isolate and purify the gamoglobulins from hyper immunised horse and sheep serum. This we did for a specific disease referring back to one of the sheep diseases or the Epsilon toxin in sheep, because we wanted to test one of our new theories, and that is of passive immunisation in sheep as a means of protection. This is one of our commercial projects which, it worked quite well, and we produced quite a lot of this gamoglobulin in sheep. MR VALLY Let's go on. You have a N204. MR ODENDAL RTO, Roodeplaat Teel Ondernemings, that's the synonym for Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises. Rooiderm in English we would say red gut in dogs, because they had 1000 dogs in one place, there was - they had a very unique syndrome called Haemorrhagic Necrotic Enteritis in the dogs, and my being a veterinary bacteriologist it stimulated my interest because my - the Clostridia group of organisms was my field of interest because I did my masters thesis on Clostridium profingens, and we tackled this problem of looking into the causes this disease in these dogs. Quite a number of these dogs died as a result of this disease. MR VALLY Let's go on, R47. MR ODENDAL Okay, this is the freeze-dry process of certain pathogens. Certain of these, I think it's fair to say that not all the organisms in the culture collection was pathogenic. Some were more pathogenic than others, and we got the order from the Defence Force to select certain pathogens and freeze-dry them in larger quantities that what we normally would have done. MR VALLY And which would these be? MR ODENDAL These would be Salmonella, it would be Anthrax, it would be Cholera, and also ...(indistinct) MR VALLY Tell me, when you say you got the order from the Defence Force, who specifically gave you the order? MR ODENDAL Our structures - all my orders I received from Dr Andre Immelman. Although Dr Schalk van Rensburg was my direct Department Head all the Defence Force projects came through Dr Andre Immelman and Dr Schalk van Rensburg didn't really have inside knowledge of these projects. MR VALLY Let's go on, L95. MR ODENDAL Bacillus Anthraces in muis. We did a lot of LD 50 tests, that means that we used a lot of mice to determine the pathogenicity of - we have about 45 different strains of Anthrax in our collection, and because the Kruger National Park is a basic endemic area for Anthrax, we met closely with them and to look at some of the problems that is associated with Anthrax in wild animals, so we obtained a number of isolates and we tested their pathogenicity in mice, and this project was all about that. These results, I can just mention, I wrote it up and I published it in a scientific journal, The Onderstepoort Journal of Veterinary Science, 1992. MR VALLY Alright, thanks, the last two, 170 and 168, were these also both in-house projects? MR ODENDAL Yes. 170 was also Bacillus Anthraces. The biochemical characterisation of all these different isolates which we obtained from the Kruger Park. We did biochemical profiles on each of them, and these results I also published in The Onderstepoort Journal of Veterinary Science. MR VALLY And the last one? MR ODENDAL That's Campilabacta Dejornai, in bitches, tewe. In these ...(intervention) MR VALLY That's fine, you don't have to give us the details of that. DR RANDERA Dr Odendal, can I just ask, in terms of your categorisation of "N", "R" and "L", this is for 1990/1991. MR ODENDAL Yes. DR RANDERA Is there a possibility that whereas in one year, let's just take your L0170, it's the one that you were talking in terms Anthrax in the Kruger National Park, could that be converted to an "R" in the next year, because - or for example the septic shock one, whereas you say the idea was to develop treatment modalities on a model that would cause toxic shock. Given that you were involved in biological warfare, and biological warfare to me means in it's simplest terms means killing human beings. Could that experimentation not be converted towards what you were primarily involved in, which was biological warfare work? MR ODENDAL You see, we did not have any background on Anthrax. We didn't have any working experience with the organism. So what we had to do is we had to work with the organisms. We had the proper facilities for that, you know, we created a P3 facility, and if the Committee wants me to expand on that, I will do so gladly, but you need specific laboratories to work with pathogenic organisms, which we had. So, the experience you get with working with an organism obviously gives you experience, it gives you on-hands expertise. So that experience you can use for whichever purpose is possible. DR RANDERA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vally? MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Chair. You mentioned that the Defence Force asked you to, or asked RRL to create facilities for the large-scale freeze-drying of I think you mentioned Salmonella, Anthrax, Cholera and a fourth item, I forget what is was, what is the fourth one? MR ODENDAL Yersinia. MR VALLY Yersinia. Very briefly, what quantities are we talking about here? MR ODENDAL Well the quantities that was mentioned in one of these documents which seemed to corroborate the volumes which we produced, which was not very large. It was normally in 10ml volumes in a 30ml McCarthy glass vile. MR VALLY Would it be very easy to produce much, much more from the vials that you had once you had the cultures? MR ODENDAL With the facilities we had, no. You can, but over a very lengthy period of time. DR ORR Sorry, can I just ask, how many organisms, for instance if you have 10ml of Cholera in a bottle, how many Cholera organisms would be in that bottle? MR ODENDAL Well, normally we would make a count afterwards, and we would be satisfied with 10 to the power of 8 per millilitre. DR ORR And that is 100 million, if I'm counting my 0's correctly? MR ODENDAL Yes, it's quite a lot of 0's. DR RANDERA And the potential of harm from that? MR ODENDAL Well, it's difficult to say, you know, it's easy to play with numbers, but I very soon realised that it's not so easy to judge from what you have what it will be, because in the pathogenic status I have been involved with animals in my - as part of my veterinary training, it's not always easy to cause a specific disease they way you wanted to. I think Dr Schalk van Rensburg mentioned the 3 Russians were infected and only one died. You know, I was quite surprised one died because I don't think - you know, to my mind they shouldn't die because it doesn't normally work that way. DR RANDERA But you would still have a certain figure in mind. I mean you've given all these confounders. MR ODENDAL Well, some of these diseases would rather cause disease or incapacitation rather than mortality, and I think the organisms were involved in, apart from Anthrax, perhaps, all the other organisms will just cause slight - I won't say slight, but, incapacitation. DR RANDERA Sorry to push you on this one, but, given that you had a vile of Clostridium, let's take that as an example, whether we've talking about morbidity or mortality, you must have done certain calculations to say 1ml of the substance of the culture can affect so many thousands or so many hundreds of people, that's what I'm asking you. MR ODENDAL You see, we didn't really do those calculations because 10 to the power of 8 is the maximum number of organisms we can grow in a culture. We can't grow any more, so we opted for the optimum number of organisms per millilitre. So we didn't have any figures because that's not really available, how many organisms can incapacitate you, if I've answered your question. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vally? MR VALLY If we could go on. If you were just having these cultures for testing purpose or for laboratory purposes, why would you be asked to keep larger quantities of these particular items, Salmonella, the Anthrax, the Cholera and the Yersinia. MR ODENDAL Well, I was, I didn't keep them in my collection. Those that were prepared in larger quantities I handed over to Dr Andre Immelman. MR VALLY Why do you hypothesise that the Defence Force asked you to produce these in larger quantities? MR ODENDAL Mr Chairman, I'm not sure if I understand you? MR VALLY If you only required these items to prepare defences against them, Salmonella, Anthrax, Cholera, Yersinia, you advised us that these were the items that you were asked to freeze-dry in large quantities. What do you think was the reason why these particular items had to be freeze-dried in large quantities? MR ODENDAL Well, one of the reasons that was given to me, was that Dr Jan Lourens from Protechnic wanted to test them for filter purposes because he was testing new protective - new types of protective clothing, and that was one of the reasons. MR VALLY That's one of the reasons that you were given? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY But I thought all the testing was done at RRL? MR ODENDAL No, Mr Chairman, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but we didn't do any testing. We just took the organisms, put them in bottles, and that's it. We didn't do any testing on them. MR VALLY I see. Well, maybe you can tell me about TRC 52? This is the so-called "verkopelys". Now, do you see the document, do you have it with you? MR ODENDAL Yes, I have it in front of me. MR VALLY Now, you'll see there are a number of items on this list. Let me refer you to some of them, we seem to involve some of the items in your field, "The botulism in the bierblik - 21st of June 1989", do you see it, about three quarter of the way down? MR ODENDAL Yes, I see it. MR VALLY Were you responsible for producing the botulism? MR ODENDAL Yes, we did produce that. MR VALLY Did you put it in the beer tin? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Do you know how it got there? MR ODENDAL I got - it was also one of the, I would say, requests I had from the Defence Force to produce Botsilium type A toxin, which I produced in a 5ml glass freeze-dried vile and this I prepared a number of these glass vials and I handed it over to Dr Andre Immelman. What happened after that to the toxin I wasn't informed. The know ...(intervention) MR VALLY Need to know. MR ODENDAL The must know system also applied to me. MR VALLY Did Dr Immelman never discuss these issues with you that he was using it to put into a tin of beer? MR ODENDAL Well, this was one of the things that came to light, and I also did some tests on liquor, beer, whisky, milk, water. MR VALLY Well, let's go out firstly with botulism. What effect does it have on a human person. MR ODENDAL Well, it causes paralysis because it inhibits the transmittance of your nerve impulse in your muscles, so eventually you would die of asphyxia. MR VALLY And how long does it take to work? MR ODENDAL That's difficult to say. In humans we don't know, I don't think those figures are available at all. On the - the only figures we have is figures which - studies we've done on mice, because mice is the most popular experimental laboratory animal which is commonly used not only to type these Botsilium toxins into the different types because there are basically eight, let's say seven different types of Botsilium. MR VALLY Potentially it could kill? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY And you tested these on primates such as baboons? MR ODENDAL No, we didn't test it in primates, we only used mice as an experimental ...(intervention) MR VALLY Only mice? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Did you test - you said you tested it's ability to be mixed with alcohol and it's effectiveness thereafter? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Why do you think you were doing that? MR ODENDAL Well, the reason once again that was offered to me was, it could land in one of our own people's drinks and that's to test the quality of the drink, of the drink, or of the liquid. MR VALLY Did you seriously believe that? MR ODENDAL Not really, because I know it's one of their most common or popular biological weapons as well, it could also be used offensively. MR VALLY Tell me about Salmonella. Did you do tests on mixing sugar and Salmonella together? MR ODENDAL No we didn't do any tests. We just provided the Salmonella and if you mix it with anything, tea or sugar, you know, you hope it will work, if it would work. MR VALLY You did tests on mixing this item with various ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL No, we did no tests on Salmonella. MR VALLY Which - and botulism, did you do such tests on botulism? MR ODENDAL Yes, we did. MR VALLY What did you mix it with? MR ODENDAL Well, we mixed it with milk, with water, with whisky, with beer, all types of liquid that could possibly aid the ingestion of the toxin. MR VALLY I want to talk about the Cholera. Do you see on the 4th of August 1989, the first item on the second page of TRC 52? Do you see that item? MR ODENDAL Yes, I see it. MR VALLY Can you describe the effect of Cholera on the human being? MR ODENDAL Well, it causes quite a severe diarrhoea, quite a severe dehydration and that's basically the most important effect. MR VALLY And who are the most vulnerable people regarding Cholera? MR ODENDAL Well, humans. MR VALLY And will - amongst humans, are children not the most vulnerable, and older people? MR ODENDAL Yes, they are. MR VALLY So Cholera would be most effective in killing children and older people? MR ODENDAL I assume so, yes, because that's what the literature says. MR VALLY And you're talking about sixteen bottles, how much cholera are we talking? MR ODENDAL Once again, if I remember correctly, they were small bottles, 30ml McCarthy vials and you put in at least 10ml, so that would mean, it would be quite a lot. MR VALLY What would you ...(indistinct) if you had to use it for offensive purposes? You see on that same page, about three quarter way down, there's 10 bottles and the top of the page was 16 bottles, so that's 26 bottles altogether. Firstly, were you the person who put this cholera together, who isolated it, or cultured it? MR ODENDAL I prepared the cultures, yes. MR VALLY You prepared them? You produced 26 bottles of cholera of 30ml a bottle, I believe you said. MR ODENDAL No, 10ml. MR VALLY I beg your pardon, 10ml a bottle, which gives you 260ml of cholera. What damage - I'm sorry, I'm told there's another 6ml also involved. I assume that you produced that as well? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY So we've got 26 plus 6, is 32 bottles which gives you 220ml of cholera. Can you give us an indication of whether this could cause a serious epidemic? MR ODENDAL Well, I assume that it could cause an epidemic, yes. MR VALLY I used the words "serious epidemic". MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Were you aware that you were producing a substance which could potentially cause a serious epidemic? MR ODENDAL I wouldn't - when I got the request to produce these organisms, you must remember that the idea stuck in my mind, that in the first case it was to be used for testing purposes, and in the second one, you know, there were hints that this could be used in the war situation in Angola, and it never crossed my mind for one moment that it could be used internally in our own country, because to use organisms or to spread organisms in your own country is a very risky thing, and it's not the - it doesn't go along with the convention of biological warfare that you do not produce these things to use on your own territory. MR VALLY You felt it was acceptable to use cholera as a weapon in Angola? MR ODENDAL Well, to my - with the information that was available to me, that these guys were using it on us, so why don't we use it on them. MR VALLY And who told you this? MR ODENDAL This was information that was probably passed to me by Dr Immelman. MR VALLY So Dr Immelman indicated to you that it was acceptable to visit a cholera epidemic on possibly Angolans? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Who else was involved in this project? I'm talking specifically about production of cholera and for the purposes you produced it? MR ODENDAL Well, there was a specific technician, I only had one technician that was allocated to these projects which produced all these organisms in large quantities. MR VALLY Was there any advisor or consultant to this project? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Anthrax, what effect does Anthrax have on a person? MR ODENDAL Anthrax cause three different clinical symptoms in humans. The one is, when you inhale it, it is extremely dangerous. That is the most dangerous form of Anthrax. MR VALLY What happens to the person? MR ODENDAL Well, you go into shock, into septic shock and you can die within a very short period. The other one is when you ingest it orally. In most cases nothing will happen, but if you happen to have an ulcer of some sorts, and the organism is absorbed into the bloodstream, that person will probably also die because their death is very acute. And then the third form is aquataneous form which was referred to in the earlier days as Wilsorter's disease, and that causes an abscess, which can heal by itself, or if you instigate treatment, you can recover. MR VALLY If you go back to TRC 52, the second page, third item, it talks about five "sigarette - B - Anthrax", do you see it? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Are you aware of these cigarettes prepared with Anthrax? MR ODENDAL Yes, I was asked to do that. MR VALLY So you personally put drops of Anthrax onto these cigarettes? MR ODENDAL Yes, I was given a packet of Camel cigarettes, and I was requested to drop some of the drops onto the filter of the cigarettes. MR VALLY And what would it have - what would have happened to the person who smoked these cigarettes? MR ODENDAL Well, it's difficult to speculate, but I can imagine that it might have fatal results. MR VALLY Were you aware of that at the time you did it? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Were you aware of who it was intended for? MR ODENDAL Well, once again this was put to me that it was going to be used to test some of the filters that Dr Lourens was developing at Protechnic. MR VALLY Surely you didn't believe that, I mean you don't test the filter by putting Anthrax on the cigarette? MR ODENDAL Perhaps I did not believe it, but I had my own thoughts about the situation. MR VALLY Well, let's go on. Did you do experiments with the mixing of chocolate with Anthrax? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Did you, directly under the items with cigarettes and Anthrax, it says "koffie, sjokolade" and Anthrax. Did you do that mixture as well? MR ODENDAL No, I only provided the toxin to Dr Immelman, and what he did with the toxin, he did not tell me, he did not inform me. MR VALLY Are there any other items on this "verkope" list that - firstly, I want to know if you prepared the toxins, and secondly, I want to know if you were responsible for the final product, for example the cigarettes, or the peppermint chocolate with Anthrax. But, firstly, let's see, regarding the shopping list, which toxins were you personally responsible for producing? If you start on the first page, 19th of March '89 and move downwards. MR ODENDAL There's one, the 9th of June '89, "Spore en brief". Those were Anthrax spores and they were supposedly put onto the glue part of the envelope. MR VALLY So, did you prepare the envelope? MR ODENDAL No, I did not prepare the envelope, but I provided the spores. MR VALLY Were you aware what they were going to be for? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Where you aware whether it could be done or not, whether spores could be put onto the gum of an envelope? MR ODENDAL I suppose it could be done, but I don't think it's a very good idea to immobilise or the incapacitate someone, because I doubt whether it will be effective. MR VALLY We're talking kill. Will it kill someone? MR ODENDAL I've got my doubts, but strictly speaking, it could happen. MR VALLY Depending on the quantity? MR ODENDAL Well, and depending on many factors. MR VALLY Would it be detectable? MR ODENDAL I don't think so, no. MR VALLY Let's go on. What else on the first page? MR ODENDAL "Bierblik Botsilium", I produced the Botsilium toxin, but how it got into the beer tin, I won't know. MR VALLY Let's go on. MR ODENDAL And the same with the following one. MR VALLY Right. MR ODENDAL And then with the "suiker en Salmonella". MR VALLY What did you do there? MR ODENDAL I only supplied the Salmonella. MR VALLY Salmonella, let's briefly talk about. What effect does it have on a person? MR ODENDAL It causes a nausea, and gastro enteritis. MR VALLY Let's go on. The ...(indistinct) MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY You've mentioned the cholera at the top of the second page, 16 bottles, let's go on. MR ODENDAL The cigarettes, yes, I did that. MR VALLY Right, that's cigarettes at (b) with Anthrax. You say five, volume - five, was it five cigarettes, five packets, five cartons? MR ODENDAL I'm not sure, I think it was, if I remember correctly, it was one cigarette per packet and it was five packets. MR VALLY Five different packets? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Let's go on. The coffee, "sjokolade", were you responsible for both, or just the botulism? MR ODENDAL Just the botulism, and just the Anthrax, and not to inoculate the chocolate. MR VALLY Let's go one. MR ODENDAL Okay, the cholera, and the Brucella Maletenses. MR VALLY Well, let's talk about that. That's the third last item at the bottom. MR ODENDAL Yes, that's also an important ...(indistinct). MR VALLY Tell us what effect it has on human beings. MR ODENDAL That causes flu-like symptoms which I would say, it could be quite severe, and it could have long lasting effects. So, it's not lethal, it can only incapacitate from that ingested. MR VALLY Do you know what's relapsing fever? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Does it cause chronic relapsing fever? MR ODENDAL It actually causes multi fever, because relapsing fever is Brucella Abortus. MR VALLY I see, is that in the list as well? MR ODENDAL No, Abortus is not in the list. MR VALLY Did you produce it? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY You didn't produce it. MR ODENDAL Maletenses is one step more pathogenic that Abortus. MR VALLY I see, and when you say the fever you described, does it incapacitate a person for the rest of their lives? MR ODENDAL Not necessarily. MR VALLY For how long? MR ODENDAL Well, let's say you get quite severe fever symptoms, muscle pains, joint pains, and then that can incapacitate you for - it's difficult to say, for a couple of days. MR VALLY And does it recur? MR ODENDAL Yes, it can recur. MR VALLY For how many years? MR ODENDAL Well, this is difficult to say, but for many years, 10 years, 5 years, 10 years. MR VALLY And to call it flu-like symptoms is to underplay it? MR ODENDAL Well, it's sever flu-like symptoms. MR VALLY I means doesn't it totally incapacitate you, that period, when it recurs? MR ODENDAL I've been fortunate enough not to contract this disease, but I ...(intervention) MR VALLY Surely you read about it? MR ODENDAL Yes, but from the people that have had it, it's not a disease that I'd like to get. MR VALLY So you could take a healthy person, and they would be rendered ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL Yes, you can make them quite ill. MR VALLY For a long, long time. What does the literature say one it? MR ODENDAL Well, you get acute and you get chronic cases. MR VALLY Let's talk acute. MR ODENDAL Acute for a couple of days, MR VALLY Right. MR ODENDAL And it can pass. MR VALLY And chronic? MR ODENDAL With treatment. MR VALLY Yes. MR ODENDAL Chronic, it'll come back, you treat it, it'll come back. MR VALLY For how many years? MR ODENDAL At least ten years. MR VALLY And this was the more serious type of Maletenses? MR ODENDAL Yes, that's correct. MR VALLY Which would probably induce the chronic symptoms you described? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Now, the quantity you got there, 1 by 50, how much are we talking about? MR ODENDAL If I remember correctly, that must be 15ml. MR VALLY Per bottle? MR ODENDAL Yes, that was only one bottle, and that was all. MR VALLY So, one bottle of 50. And how would you - how would this be transmitted to people? MR ODENDAL Orally. MR VALLY Can you introduce it into the drinking water? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Or milk? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Or alcohol? MR ODENDAL We didn't do any test on that, so I can't say alcohol, but it's a possibility. MR VALLY And 50ml will affect how many people? MR ODENDAL That is difficult to say. MR VALLY Usually these items, you use millilitres to in fact affect people, very minute amounts. MR ODENDAL Well, we normally cultivated, these organisms to at least 10 to the power of 8 organisms per millilitre. So, if you had to reconstitute it and if you freeze-dried, say for instance, 50ml and you can reconstitute it with less volume, and then your concentration will be a bit higher. So you can increase your concentration slightly, but it can strictly speaking, it can make a lot of people sick. MR VALLY When you say a lot of people, what are you talking about? Give me numbers please. MR ODENDAL Well, that's difficult to say, you know. It will be pure speculation really. MR VALLY Speculate for me. MR ODENDAL Two hundred, three hundred. MR VALLY Is it true that it is very difficult to diagnose? MR ODENDAL Yes, it's very often missed by the medical practitioners, because they don't normally look for it, and a lot veterinarians suffer from this disease, because it's not diagnosed properly, so it is difficult to diagnose. MR VALLY Is that one of the reasons why you were keen on - your research institute was keen on producing this substance? MR ODENDAL Well, it is also listed in the international lists of biohazard agents for biochemical or biological warfare is this organism, because we get to this specific reason. CHAIRPERSON I think the question, however, is still a pointed one. Is that the quality that your research laboratory was looking for, and was that the reason that they wanted to produce that ...(indistinct)? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Let's go on to the last page. Were you responsible for those two items? MR ODENDAL Yes, the Maletenses and the ...(indistinct), but ...(intervention) MR VALLY Let's start off with the Maletenses first. How much of this was produced in this particular batch? MR ODENDAL I'm afraid, Mr Chairman, I can't remember that, you have to ...(intervention) MR VALLY Was it possibly the same amount as the previous one? MR ODENDAL This organism wasn't very popular really, because I think it was just for us to give to the people just to have it on hand, whether it was ever used or not, I can't say, but I can only assume that it must have been the same quantity. I can't say for certain, I'm sorry. MR VALLY And the last item? MR ODENDAL Typhemorium, Salmonella Typhemorium is one of the Salmonellas which can also incapacitate you. MR VALLY Did you produce this? MR ODENDAL I produced it, yes. MR VALLY Does it cause typhoid? MR ODENDAL Para-typhoid. MR VALLY Para-typhoid. Can you describe the symptoms, what effect it has on people? MR ODENDAL It also causes gastro enteritis. MR VALLY Does it cause dysentery? MR ODENDAL No, not really. MR VALLY Does it cause severe internal haemorrhaging? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Did you put it into the deodorant? MR ODENDAL No, I can't understand if someone would want to infect someone with Salmonella, why you would put it in a deodorant, it wasn't me, no. MR VALLY How would you transmit the Salmonella in order to affect someone? MR ODENDAL It's also an oral ingestion. MR VALLY Only ingestion, not through the skin? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY And not through inhalation? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Do you understand why this was done? MR ODENDAL No, it doesn't make sense to me. MR VALLY Have you seen this list before? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Are you aware of the fact that your products, that these items that you produced were in fact being given to people? I don't mean the recipients, I don't mean the victims, I mean the middleman who'd collect it from RRL or it would be delivered to such a person? Were you aware of that? MR ODENDAL Yes, because we did not see the people for whom the products were intended for. MR VALLY When you say "we" you're talking about yourself? MR ODENDAL And Dr Immelman - or, no - sorry, I'm talking about myself. MR VALLY I think you are. MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY I need to ask you, were you given certain specifications? I need, for example, a product to introduce into a cap of the ANC, which I want to produce at in fact, for example, foodworths, were you given such specifications? MR ODENDAL MR VALLY Were you told what is the most effective toxin to be used in whatever circumstances, were you ever given instructions of that sort? MR ODENDAL No, I had to produce a potpourri of products and they made their own choices. MR VALLY And the potpourri was of your own volition, or were you given directions as to what should be part of the potpourri? MR ODENDAL I had a list of organisms, you know, from international literature which gave me guidelines on the organisms which would be the most pathogenic. I went according to those instructions. MR VALLY So you took what the world community said were the most ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL Potent organisms that could be used in the event of biological warfare, yes. MR VALLY And then went and produced those. MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY What in fact did any of these items have on the environment, for example? Let's talk about Anthrax. MR ODENDAL Well, I think Anthrax, it would be grossly irresponsible if you use Anthrax in your own country, because you will contaminate the soil and the environment for a least 70 years. MR VALLY So for 70 years it would be highly dangerous for any living creature to be in that area? MR ODENDAL Yes. Well, the experiments that I have been performed so far indicate that, you know, this is the maximum time that, but probably it can be a bit longer, but 70 years is the experimental time which has been quoted in the literature. MR VALLY In fact when British experiments in ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL Green old Ireland. MR VALLY They had to abandon the island for many years. MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY You were aware of this? MR ODENDAL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you think that this was being produced for use on neighbouring territories, because you say it would have been very senseless for it to be produced for one's own country? MR ODENDAL I think the quantities that we produced of Anthrax spores were so small that you cannot really, you know, it was incomprehensible for me to realise that this could have been used in a warfare situation, because you need many spores, especially if you want to rely on the inhalation method of inactivating your enemy. You'd have to rely on the inhalation of the spores, and therefore you'd need tons of spores, and we only produced, I think, limited quantities. CHAIRPERSON Maybe whilst I still have you, Dr Odendal, just so I don't forget, you see, I see that all of this work was produced by you towards the end of ...(intervention) MR VALLY Sorry, Chairperson, I've just been asked if we could just stop at this point. It's moving towards aspects of - which involve serious proliferation and I think we just, we need to consult on our side. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well I don't know if there has been any basis that has been laid for, certainly the question that I am going to be asking. I'm not going to be asking about - I'm going to be asking about cholera. Can I just get an indication from the principals if I'm going to be asking the questions on cholera that have been heard, whether that is going to be traversing. Mike seems to say, you know, I can go ahead. You see, Dr Odendal, most of the substance is cultures that you talk about. You produced towards the end of 1989, during '89, on the list, at least sitting on the list, all the cholera. I've seen that one was, you know, had a date in September in 1989. Do you agree? MR ODENDAL I think what one should also realise is that I produced these organisms and in a freeze-dried form they can stay alive for many months, and even perhaps years, CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ODENDAL So it could have happened that I could have produced those organisms in 1988 for instance, and they were only distributed in 1989. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Okay, let's talk distribution. It seems to me, if you look at these dates where those distribution dates or where those dates relevant to the day on which you released them to whoever was placing an order for them. What does the dates signify here? MR ODENDAL No, the dates - I did not know when these cultures were handed out by whom, to whom. I assume it must have been Dr Immelman that handed them out to someone who came and collected it, but there is no connection with the distribution date the preparation date of the organisms. CHAIRPERSON Well, at list, it says in one column it says "datum gelewer". What does that mean? MR ODENDAL That I would understand, would mean to me this was given to an operative or someone, or an agent or someone that came and collected it. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ODENDAL That's what it would mean to me. CHAIRPERSON Yes the point that I am making is that you are talking about 1989. These toxic substances are being delivered as you say, possible to agents, in 1989, and all your understanding had been that this would have been in furtherance of a war situation. Do you agree? MR ODENDAL I assume so, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now in 1989 there hardly was any war that was being fought by the South African Defence Force, do you agree? MR ODENDAL Well, Mr Chairman, you've got a good recollection, CHAIRPERSON If anything, there was a peace process in Namibia where the South Africans had been involved in a war that have even taken them to Angola. Do you realise that? MR ODENDAL Yes, that's true. CHAIRPERSON 1989 we're actually talking elections in Namibia. Do you realise that? MR ODENDAL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now talking about cholera, how would it have been administered, these cholera cultures? MR ODENDAL There's only one basic - there's basically only one way I would think, and that would be to contaminate drinking water. CHAIRPERSON Contaminate drinking water. And you, for instance, in peace time, in the election time in Namibia, these doses could have been administered in drinking water in Namibia. What effect would it have had on the election process? MR ODENDAL Well, I think to start off with, I think the Department of Health would basically agree with me that if you have this organism in your environment, it can have a devastating effect on the health services. It can lead to disruption because you need urgent medical attention to the people that are affected. You can disrupt a whole area. It can cause wide spread disruption. CHAIRPERSON You are talking about the disruption of an election process, possibly even leading to some deaths. MR ODENDAL Certainly. CHAIRPERSON And you agree that the quantities of this cholera culture that you produced was sufficient to have been able to produce an epidemic, certainly that would have affected a population of 1 million plus in Namibia at this time, had there been a plan to do so? MR ODENDAL That's possible, yes. CHAIRPERSON Did it not worry you that in peace time you were being asked to produce toxins of those proportions? MR ODENDAL You see, at this stage, and as I mentioned it to you, there was a stage that we produced these organisms and that could have been in 1988 even. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I'm talking what you are agreeing on. Here in 1989, which is peace time, you now know that certain of these toxins were being collected, certainly were being delivered to agents as you called them, did that not worry you - or let me not talk that time. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, doesn't it raise a number of questions in you head that these things were being delivered through Dr Immelman to whoever, CCB maybe, Armed - Special Forces, you were aware that these projects where they were associated with the South African Defence Force and linked in some ways to Special Forces, were you not? MR ODENDAL It is disturbing, yes, but at that time it wasn't, you know, we had a lot of projects going, and when you get an order or a directive to produce something, you had to produce it. CHAIRPERSON At that time you were aware that your projects were associated in some ways with Special Forces ...(intervention) MR ODENDAL Well, not at the time when we produced it. Afterwards I realised that that could have been the possibility. CHAIRPERSON And when you realised it, didn't you think that some of the toxins that you were producing, they're actually destined for operations by Special Forces? MR ODENDAL Well, I sort of realised that, you know, but it was too late to do anything at that stage, because in those cases it would have been - the results would have been evident. CHAIRPERSON I see. There were things you could have done, but then, that's not my function at this stage. Mr Vally? ADV POTGIETER Mr Chairperson, can I just before we loose the point on the cholera thing, do I understand this correctly, the cholera example, isn't that a particularly, isn't the one that particularly exemplifies a certain degree of callousness, because on what you say cholera renders children, young children and the elderly most vulnerable to it's effects, so really, it would affect that section of the population most, not so? MR ODENDAL Yes, that's true. ADV POTGIETER The innocent really? MR ODENDAL Yes. ADV POTGIETER And that underlines the callousness, if you will, to use that - those organisms in a sort of an offensive way? MR ODENDAL Well, I think even more so if you were to use those organisms in your own country. I think, you know, it's completely irresponsible, it's grossly irresponsible to do that. ADV POTGIETER Wherever you apply it, you going to affect children and the elderly most. MR ODENDAL Okay, if you're in a war-like situation, then I think, you know, your target would be, let's say adult men, ADV POTGIETER Exactly. MR ODENDAL But otherwise, I think, you know, to target the other populations of - would be callous. ADV POTGIETER So even in the war situation, it doesn't really gel with one's sense. MR ODENDAL Well I think even in a war situation, you know, to go and contaminate specific villages for that purpose would be - I would agree to that, yes. ADV POTGIETER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera? DR RANDERA MR ODENDAL Well, I think at the end of 1990, and I can just go through my project list to corroborate those facts, but we did stop when the political initiatives became more prominent and then more constructive. DR RANDERA It is possible that you may have actually been producing cultures right up till 1993. MR ODENDAL No, I can assure you that we didn't do it up to 1993, because for the simple reason, there were a lot of other commercial ventures in which we became involved. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vally, I think there has been an indication by the Ministry that we may well be going into areas of proliferation. I don't want an argument, I am just indicating that it is so, and it happens to be at a stage where I thought it would have been convenient to have an adjournment. MR VALLY We could adjourn, but I think that was a mistake on Mr Arendse's part. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's why I said I'm not going to have an argument. MR VALLY What we're talking about happened in 1942 already. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, for the record gentlemen, Mr Valley can we make an arrangement that we start at well, at 08h30 tomorrow, seeing it's a long a day and there are two witnesses that are going to stand over for cross-examination? I'm in your hands, if you want ...(indistinct) MR VALLY I would like to finish, it all depends on the cross-examination. I'd like to finish and at the very most I'd be twenty - twenty five minutes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vally then we'll take it 08h30 tomorrow morning. Some of the members of the panel have got other commitments. And may I just indicate that maybe we should now endeavour to pace ourselves in the sense that we should devote and provide for so much time for each witness. We have been fairly liberal, but we have wanted to conduct the hearing over five days, and we must either choose whether we want to have all the witnesses called, or have half a hearing. I'm just wanting you see how you can accommodate each other, otherwise you'll have to have place structures with the panel that beyond a certain hour a certain witness can no longer continue to be heard. You have an experience of that sort of thing in the - last year in Gauteng, and I'm sure I am not speaking a language you are not familiar with. MR VALLY There's two items here, or three items here. Hopefully the complaint by Mr Arendse has fallen away, so that's gone away. The other item is the witness presently before us and I respectfully suggest that we be allowed to finish him. I think if we allow to finish him we would have more time for other witnesses. It think it's unnecessary to call him back tomorrow, and I'll promise to go fast and cut ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Vally, we would have come tomorrow in any event for cross-examination. MR VALLY If we can get an indication if there's going to be cross-examination. ADV POTGIETER Mr Chairman, I can just put it at this point in time I don't have any questions to ask the witness. Mr Vally indicated there is some more evidence, but at this point in time I won't have any questions for him. CHAIRPERSON Mr Valley, I'm seriously considering allowing you only for the next 10 minutes. MR VALLY I'll restrain myself, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON 10 minutes. Mr Vally? MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Chairman. Dr Odendal, besides Anthrax are there any other items that were produced by you that would have an impact on the environment? MR ODENDAL The organisms that produce gastro enteritis will have a limited impact, although something like the organisms that we mentioned as - could have a sort of a - if it lands in the rivers and in the estuaries and in the environment, it may have a, and we're talking of months, you know, an effect of months on the environment ...(intervention) MR VALLY Which items are we talking about? MR ODENDAL Cholera for instance. MR VALLY Alright. MR ODENDAL Perhaps Salmonella. MR VALLY So cholera could stay in the environment for months? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Yes, perhaps Salmonella? MR ODENDAL Salmonella, yes. MR VALLY Botulism? MR ODENDAL No, that's a toxin and it will disappear in 24 - 48 hours from the environment if you happened to contaminate the water supplies or the environment. MR VALLY Any of the other items? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY No. Alright, just very briefly, when you started making these items, which year? MR ODENDAL Well, when I arrived at Roodeplaat in 1985 it took us about two years to get ourselves organised. MR VALLY So shall we say from 1987 until the end of 1993? MR ODENDAL Yes, I don't think it lasted all that long, although we had - I was responsible for the culture collection until the company dissolved in 1993, but we did not produce larger quantities than normal in the latter of, or in the beginning of the 90's. MR VALLY You see, we only have one "verkope" list that we have. I assume that simply because we have this list covering the period 19th of March 1989 to 21st of October 1989, that there may be many other lists, with many other deliveries, is - the items listed here, would that be just a minority of the total amount of substances produced by you? MR ODENDAL You see, Dr Immelman had in his large safe in his office, he had a small bar-room fridge in which he kept all these freeze-dried cultures, so it was not really possible to - we weren't geared to produce large quantities and we were not geared to hold large quantities of these organisms, so it didn't mean that we went into a large-scale production of these organisms to ...(intervention) MR VALLY The point I'm making is very simple, this shopping list starts on the 19th of March 1989 and goes on to the 11th of October '89. You started in '87. There would have been many more items produced from '87 to February '98, and subsequently from mid October '89 till towards the end of 1993. Is that a factually correct statement to make? MR ODENDAL No, I don't think so. I think we did not continuously produce these organisms, for the simple reason, it takes quite a time to produce them, and we were also involved in many other projects, so I think, you know, in all fairness, we did not - this was not the only type of work we were involved in. This was only a very small portion of our activities. MR VALLY Let's go on to another issue, is the treatment for Anthrax if someone has been infected by Anthrax, is the treatment - a person being treated by antibiotics, is that how you would treat it? MR ODENDAL There's only one antibiotic which will have guaranteed efficiency, and that would be penicillin. MR VALLY Right, so when you were trying to develop an antibiotic resistant Anthrax, were you trying to ensure there was no treatment for the Anthrax? MR ODENDAL Well, that could have been the one. The other reason is that we wanted to see if those strains could be induced because that would be one of the first things that we would treat with, and if we don't find any obvious effect, you know, what could the possible causes be. So, if we make a diagnoses of Anthrax in the laboratory, one of the cultural characteristics of this organism is it's susceptibility to penicillin. MR VALLY We've passed this stage about the defensive side. Once you've started putting Anthrax on cigarettes it was a different ball game, it wasn't a test situation any longer. Where you trying to produce a culture which was not treatable? MR ODENDAL Well, it goes both ways, yes. MR VALLY You carried out various tests and if you look at your documents, I'm trying to get through them quickly, so I won't go through them all, but if you look at documents 98 - Anthrax, 99 - Brucella, 100 - Cholera, 101 - typhoid, 102 - para-typhoid, sorry can you just quickly tell us the difference between para-typhoid and typhoid? MR ODENDAL Well, I think the typhoid is more specific - typhoid affects humans more specifically, whereas Typhemorium is a cross species type organism. It can infect cattle, sheep, humans, chickens ...(intervention) MR VALLY I see, so it goes in animals. MR ODENDAL Yes and typhoid is more restricted to humans. MR VALLY And the first item you talked about, is it - can the disease be spread from animals to humans and vice versa? MR ODENDAL Typhemorium, yes. It's ...(indistinct) MR VALLY Were you also responsible for paraoxon? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Alright, if you look at - let's talk about Brucella, document 99. Now, this kind of report, was this done by you? MR ODENDAL Yes, with each batch of organisms I produced I had to supply sort of a list of instructions and of safety precautions that had to be taken when this organism was handled. MR VALLY Fine, and this was done for all these items I've mentioned? MR ODENDAL Yes, that's correct. MR VALLY You had in there, if you look at 2.5 of 99, TRC 99, do you have it in front of you? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY: "Any liquid which is suitable for oral intake will be suitable for the suspension of the organisms. 5 - 10ml will be sufficient." Sufficient for what? MR ODENDAL To suspend the organisms into a suspension, to dissolve the freeze-dried clot or little pellet that you have in the container. MR VALLY Fine, and then you go on, "this includes water, milk, etc". You envisaged that it would be reconstituted in items other that just water? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY I submit to you that that's possibly because you wanted to put it in items other than water. MR ODENDAL Well, that's possible, yes. MR VALLY If you look at 2.11 it gives you the symptoms if you are infected with it, so you could determine which poisons were more effective and which ones were not? MR ODENDAL Mr Chairman, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. We did not, you know, infect humans or animals with these organisms. I just prepared them and put them in a bottle and I put in all the literature, all the information I thought necessary to ...(intervention) MR VALLY Alright, sorry, I withdraw that question. Look at 2.7, sorry, I'm trying to rush, you're talking about dosage, dosage for what? MR ODENDAL That would mean if you had to ingest that amount of organisms you will get sick. MR VALLY So, sick or more serious than just sick? MR DU PLESSIS You see it all depends, I don't think the actual dose has been established for humans. MR VALLY Well, look, go one back. MR ODENDAL So, it will basically on my part it will be speculation if I had to tell you, now this will cause disease, hopefully it will, hopefully, you know, ...(intervention) MR VALLY Hopefully it will. MR ODENDAL: Yes, depending on the type of action you intended it for. MR VALLY Let's go one back, to TRC 98. Look at 1.7 there. Look at the second paragraph, this deals with the Anthracite, "one drop of this taken in all over is a fatal dose and will be approximately 10 to the power 8, or contain 10 to the power 8 organism." In a lot of these items you were in a position to determine what dosage would be deadly. MR ODENDAL Well, that was speculation. I can assure you ...(intervention) MR VALLY But this is what you say here, a fatal dose. You were just speculating? MR ODENDAL Because that was the concentration I had in the vile. MR VALLY And you do that with a lot of these items? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Alright, now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Excuse me, Mr Valley, I'm very sorry, but what do you mean by this? It's a speculation to say each drop of this if it is taken, is a deadly dosage, what do you mean by that? MR ODENDAL Strictly speaking, if you ingest one spore or one organism, that may also be deadly. If it goes into your intestinal canal and if it is absorbed, specifically through an ulcer, or a broken part of your intestinal muculical membrane, then strictly speaking, one spore will also be deadly, because it will enter the body and it will multiply and multiply and the incubation period will only be a bit longer. So, I assumed that if you ingest this 10 to the power 8 organism, I assume that it will be deadly, because it's a lot of organisms. MR VALLY Were you specifically asked by any person to determine what would be the fatal doses? MR ODENDAL Well, I was asked to include this information leaflet, or to make it as complete as possible for the simple reason is that this was part of our - of a request we had from the Defence Force that we must include all the information, including the dosages and all the information, well, I could say all the relevant information. MR VALLY Who specifically asked you to determine what doses of these items would be deadly? MR ODENDAL Dr Immelman, let me put it to you this way, he asked for all the - he requested me to put in all the information, but again, you know, I would like to re-iterate we did not test or do any tests apart form the mouse test, that was the only laboratory test we did on Anthrax. MR VALLY And all the baboons and dogs and the chimpanzee you had besides, I'm not talking about field farm, I'm talking about the baboons and the chimpanzee and the dogs that you had for experimentation purposes at RRL, where they never used on those animals? MR ODENDAL No, I did not have - well, although I had access, I could have had access to the experimental animals if I wished, but I did not use experimental animals to test the efficiency or the doses of these bugs. MR VALLY What was the role of Dr Wouter Basson in the work you were doing? MR ODENDAL Dr Wouter Basson was our main contact with the Defence Force. He visited us once a year I saw him and he would come along to us and he would discuss certain things, projects they were interested in, and we had to make - we had to submit all our projects to him and he would decide which of those projects he was interested in for funding, from the Defence Force. MR VALLY What did Dr Wouter Basson know about your project? MR ODENDAL That's difficult to say, I'm not sure. MR VALLY When you met with him once a year, did he indicate that he was aware that you were making these items? MR ODENDAL Yes, he was aware, and I think he also knew that these organisms are basis standard organisms that are used by all the countries involved in biological warfare. MR VALLY Yes, but specifically he had knowledge you were making these items at Roodeplaat? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY What did General Knobel know about your project? MR ODENDAL Mr Chairman, you'll have to excuse me, I did not know Dr Knobel, I did not meet him, I honestly, I cannot answer this question. MR VALLY These documents, 98, 99, etc, dealing the Anthrax, Brucella, Cholera, Typhoid, Bella-typhoid, Botulism, were all these items, these reports submitted to the Defence Force? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY And who would they have gone to? MR ODENDAL Well, I submitted my report to Dr Immelman, and I presume he gave them to Wouter Basson, but I never saw those reports again, and I never heard anything about those organisms either. So what happened after that, after I gave it to Dr Immelman, I really don't know. MR VALLY Dr Odendal, you worked together with Dr Immelman for a long time, how many hears? MR ODENDAL MR VALLY He tells you, and I assume you socialised with him also? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY He orders 16 bottles of Cholera. Surely at some point you said, what did you call him, whatever, Dr Immelman, that is a large quantity you asked me to produce, yesterday, what did you do with it by the way? Surely you must have asked him? MR ODENDAL I did not ask him the Cholera, but I did ask him about the Salmonella. MR VALLY And what did he say? MR ODENDAL Well, he gave me some - that was the only incident where I had some feedback, where he told me that they used it in sugar to disrupt an ANC meeting. MR VALLY Where was this? MR ODENDAL I'm not sure. I presume it was in Johannesburg, Soweto, some or other place. He didn't elaborate on that occasion. MR VALLY And when was this? MR ODENDAL It's difficult, I have to make a wild guess, but it would be '89/'88, I'm not sure. MR VALLY Are you aware of whether anyone suffered any illnesses as a result of this? MR ODENDAL Well, apparently they became very ill, but no-one died. MR VALLY You didn't make any informal enquiries about any of the other items you produced? MR ODENDAL Well, they couldn't tell me, and even, I don't think - even if he wanted to, he couldn't tell me because ...(intervention) MR VALLY Did you ask? MR ODENDAL Yes, because ...(intervention) MR VALLY And what did he say? MR ODENDAL He told me he doesn't know. MR VALLY Did he say what he did with it? MR ODENDAL Well, he told me he gave them to the Defence Force and what happened to that he didn't know and he couldn't tell me. MR VALLY Did you feel free to leave your job at RRL, or did you feel threatened that you'd be killed if you left? MR ODENDAL At the time we left, it was rather a tumultuous time because a month after I left, the whole company collapsed and I think everything collapsed, and it was liquidated a short while after that and no, I didn't - by that time another Managing Director had taken over for the previous 18 months. MR VALLY Did you feel in fear of your life if you felt like leaving before that? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY My very last question, did Dr Immelman ever indicate to you what he did with these substances, who he gave them to? MR ODENDAL No, he didn't. He only identified them as operatives, agents ...(intervention) MR VALLY And what did you understand by that? MR ODENDAL Well, I understood covert operations. MR VALLY Did you know specifically which branch? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY You saw them as state agents? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY And that's all you knew about it? MR ODENDAL Yes. MR VALLY Did he mention CCB? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Did he mention Special Forces? MR ODENDAL No. MR VALLY Thank you, Dr Odendal. CHAIRPERSON Dr Wendy Orr? DR ORR Dr Odendal, when you were asked to contaminate five cigarettes with Anthrax and told that they were going to be used to test filters which Dr Jan Lourens was making, did you honestly believe that? MR ODENDAL You must remember at that stage, you know, it was sometimes difficult to believe what you were told, so - and we were also in a situation at that stage that I was brought to the understanding that they were to be used across the borders to disrupt, let's say an army camp, or whatever the case is, or to remove some people in neighbouring countries. You know, I sort of realised that could have been the possibility, or the alternative possibility. DR ORR I imagine if you were asked to contaminate one cigarette in a packet in five different packets, it was hardly for mass use in a camp, it sounds more to me as if was for use against particular individuals who were going to be given those cigarettes. Would you accept that? MR ODENDAL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera? DR RANDERA Dr Odendal, I just want to first of all perhaps rapport when you spoke about some of the bacteria and the effects, the impression I got was that when you spoke about gastro enteritis for example, that it was just a fairly mild condition, I think we need to be aware that two million child die in our continent every year from gastro, and also as far as I'm aware still, it's the major cause of mortality, infant mortality in South Africa to this day. When we talk about gastro, it's not just some mild condition, it can responsible for severe immobility as well as mortality. I hope you agree with that. MR ODENDAL Yes, no, certainly. DR RANDERA MR ODENDAL Well, perhaps I can latch on to what Dr Schalk van Rensburg said, I know at some stage when there was a scare that someone was going to come and inspect the place, a lot of specimens were destroyed, but I had no control over that, and I think the only person that would be able to answer you correctly on this matter would be Dr Immelman himself. DR RANDERA But it comes back to my original point, was is the responsibility of scientists like yourself, I mean in retrospect now, what would you recommend so that these situations don't arise again? MR ODENDAL I think in retrospect many things could be decided on, and I think this is something that I will certainly apply to myself and I think that hopefully such a situation will never prevail again in this country that it would be necessary for any scientist to do the same sort of work that has been done. I don't think - I think your ideas change over the time, and as you get a bit older, I think you get a bit wiser, and I think even my ideas have changed of the number of years. So I would agree with you that I think one can certainly look into that and change your ideas. But I think you must remember one thing, and this - we did not - the majority of our time we spent on more productive projects, and I think that a lot of good work came from our efforts at this laboratory. We were responsible for a Bovine vaccine, which has been registered at Onderstepoort. We've done a lot of, let's say defensive type of work as well, you know I would say in our case, I think Dr Schalk van Rensburg quoted 66% were toxic, by that was for the toxicology people. In our case it was just the complete opposite. I can show you my project lists where at least a third of the projects we did were so-called hard projects, and the other projects were soft projects and commercial, with a commercial implication. So I think to a certain extent we were not satisfied with the type of management at Roodeplaat. We did, I've got documents to state my point, that we did not like the way we were being managed, and we did make efforts to rectify the matter, but that wasn't really to any avail. But nevertheless, I think more good eventually on the whole more good came out of the whole venture that the bad things. Bad things were wrong, I will not, I will agree to that and for that I am very sorry and I think I will, if this is the reason for this Commission then I would, that's why I'm here to - because I wouldn't like to see this happen again. DR RANDERA Well, unfortunately it's the duty of this Commission to look into the bad things that were done, but I'm sure UNESCO would look at the other things, the good things that were done, you might even be considered for an award, but our duty is to the little that was done, even if it was 10% of the whole work that was done, it ought not to have been done. We'd have been pleased if 100% of your time had been spent on good things, because the 10% of the time that was spent on these sort of things, you know, blots entirely even the good work that was done. I'm sure you appreciate that. CHAIRPERSON That seems to bring us to the end of our questions today. We shall adjourn until, well Hanif has some ideas, could you meet at 08h30 and we start at 09h00. MR VALLY 08h30 or 09h00 is fine by us, Mr Chair. 08h30 would suite us. I just want to ask that if we could just ask the attorneys to remain behind, legal representatives rather, once we adjourn, just to arrange the rest of the programme in view of potential court challenges, so we understand when the challenges will be brought, and as well as arranging our schedule accordingly. By this I mean we can tell people to be on standby so that we don't waste any time. CHAIRPERSON And of course you'll remember that one of the arrangements that you should possible be looking at is how much time each witness is going to be given. MR VALLY Certainly. CHAIRPERSON 08h30 tomorrow morning. ADV POTGIETER Mr Chairman, may this witness be excused please? CHAIRPERSON I would assume so. Mr van Zyl, you ...(intervention) MR VAN ZYL I've got no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON You are excused Dr Odendal. HEARING ADJOURNS