special Helderberg Flight Special Hearing: In Camera 1998-06-02 Cape Town 1 JOHN DAVID HARE, MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE, VERNON NADEL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56321&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/helderberg/helderberg1.htm CHAIRPERSON: This is a continuation of a Section 29 Enquiry. Ms Terreblanche I believe we are still going ahead with the enquiry into the Helderberg? MS TERREBLANCHE Yes. Apart from one witness today I think we will have, at least I have seen here four witnesses from the South African Airways. Two of them former employees and two of them current employees. We have here with us Mr John Hare. He is currently still with SAA. Good morning, welcome. MR HARE Good morning, thank you. CHAIRPERSON I will ask Commissioner Wildschut to swear you in but before we do that let me welcome you and let me say we are extremely pleased that you have been able to take the time to be here. A few ground rules. The enquiry is held in terms of Section 29 of the Act. It is an in-camera hearing. It is held in terms of the Act and the section provides that all evidence that has been led here will be confidential and remain confidential until the Commission decides otherwise and if and when the Commission so decides it will be in the circumstances where the people who have led such evidence and those who might be affected adversely by the evidence so taken at such an enquiry will have been given an opportunity to make representations. So for the moment everything that you will be giving to us in this information gathering exercise will remain confidential. It is for that reason that only people who have been invited or subpoenaed to attend and members of the Commission and their staff which include the translators and the sound engineers are permitted and will be attending at the enquiries. And with her is Dr David Klatzow who is a forensic specialist and who has been contracted by the Commission as a consultant and will be assisting Ms Terreblanche in the execution of their tasks. There will be tea which I believe will be served between 11 and quarter past 11 and there will be lunch. I do need to indicate that I will, I have an engagement at 5 with the Ministry, Minister Pallo Jordan and I will therefore have to excuse myself at half past four. We might have to then try and expedite matters such that I am free to leave for me to be able to make the appointment. MS TERREBLANCHE CHAIRPERSON Commissioner Wildschut, if you could then swear Mr Hare in. MS WILDSCHUT Are you Mr Hare? Mr Hare, do you have any objection to taking the oath? MR HARE MS WILDSCHUT Could you please state your full name for the record? MR HARE My name is John David Hare. JOHN DAVID HARE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Ms Terreblanche? MS TERREBLANCHE We understand that you were not at SAA at the time of the Helderberg incident. But we also understand that you have some expertise and you have knowledge of Armscor and SAA? MR HARE MS TERREBLANCHE MR HARE Ms Terreblanche, in answer it may seem quite strange to you but you ask a question alluding to a relationship between Armscor and South African Airways and my only response to that is that I am not aware of any such relationship that may or may not have existed but I certainly am not aware that there was any relationship in the period that you refer to and therefore continuing from that in the particular period that you refer to in the question later on, the same answer would apply. I am certainly not aware of any relationship that could have existed between Armscor and South African Airways other than a normal relationship in terms of which personnel of Armscor made use of South African Airways for passenger services. MS TERREBLANCHE MR HARE MS TERREBLANCHE MR HARE I think the easiest will be if I give you an indication of what the role was that I played at Armscor and then refer that to the change in my employment in 1990 and indicate what my responsibilities are and have been from that period. I served in that capacity for a number of years. I continued my responsibility for the data processing company. My capacity, my role at that stage was, title was that of senior general manager finance. At a later stage we split the functions, Armscor split the functions of finance into two. The one that I retained responsibility for was in essence the treasury function. In late 1989 I was approached by a consulting firm of recruitment specialists. At the time it was indicated to me that a major client of that company had a desire to appoint a chief financial officer. It was put to me that the particular role was very necessary in terms of the degree of expertise held by that company and the fact that they were in the throes of corporatising and converting from a State owned entity into a parastatal and after several months of negotiation concerning the possibility I had made the decision to transfer and commence employment with South African Airways. I was appointed at the time as senior general manager of South African Airways with a particular responsibility for finance and accounting systems and in that capacity I acted for several, for a couple of years until such time as we had some re-organisations within South African Airways and my responsibilities were augmented. I later became responsible for data processing operations, for capital purchases, for fuel purchases, for a period for the cargo operations of the company, that was for a limited period and subsequently for the maintenance operations of South African Airways. MS TERREBLANCHE Thank you. We have talked obviously to a large number of people in terms of the Helderberg. Now two former SAA employees, in fact one is still an employee has told me that Armscor did have an account with SAA and I think you would be in a very good position to clarify that? MR HARE MS TERREBLANCHE Would you have been aware of such an account being aware of the financial position? MR HARE MS TERREBLANCHE Thank you. I think Dr Klatzow would also like to ask you a couple of questions. DR KLATZOW Mr Hare, thank you for coming along. Your background is accounting, is that correct? MR HARE DR KLATZOW And as part of that background you would have intimate and detailed knowledge of the structure of a company? MR HARE I would expect to have a comprehensive knowledge, yes. DR KLATZOW And therefore if you were in a senior executive position you would know how that company functioned? MR HARE DR KLATZOW Now, at the time you were an executive member of an Armscor subsidiary, is that correct? MR HARE I was a member of the board of directors of various Armscor subsidiary companies. DR KLATZOW MR HARE Certainly. DR KLATZOW We had to use every skill and ingenuity that the country could offer in order to break the sanctions that were occurring at the time, is that not correct? MR HARE I would say so. DR KLATZOW And Armscor did so by means of not only the skill which they could bring to it by the use of skilled personnel such as yourself but they did not hesitate to use subterfuge in order to achieve their ends on many occasions, is that not correct? MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW With impunity in fact? MR HARE DR KLATZOW Would you, do you remember that South Africa was involved in the illicit gaining of plans for the Daphne class submarines which caused an international outrage? MR HARE DR KLATZOW But it was public news. MR HARE I have read that that was the case. DR KLATZOW MR HARE Dr Klatzow that may well have been the case. I have no personal knowledge of regulations that were broken by Armscor. DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW Right. CHAIRPERSON MR HARE Commissioner I believe that I have so indicated that that was the task that Armscor was set up for. It was one of the main tasks that they fulfilled over a number of years. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR HARE CHAIRPERSON On a need to know basis? MR HARE Purely on a need to know basis. DR KLATZOW That is exactly the point that I was getting to because, as a man well versed in commercial practises you would see, from the structure of the company that it was specifically designed on a need to know and that it was designed in a fashion which was ideally suited, if I could put it, to sanction busting and clandestine operations in order to achieve their stated aims. MR HARE That is correct. DR KLATZOW MR HARE Correct. DR KLATZOW MR HARE I think one has to be careful with the assumption there will inevitably be a number of people who would "be doing their own thing", choosing their own way of doing things. The task would be one that was defined, the objective defined, the way of doing it would not necessarily have been defined at all. DR KLATZOW MR HARE No, it was certainly never a free for all. DR KLATZOW Right. Now, there are links between Armscor of course and Somchem? MR HARE Somchem at the time was an operating subsidiary company. DR KLATZOW Correct. And one of the functions of Somchem was that it was producing a variety of military ordinance, ranging from small arms ammunition through to pyrotechnics and it produced the compound called ammonium perchlorate. Are you aware of that? MR HARE DR KLATZOW But are you aware that they were the only company in the country who were manufacturing that kind of material, apart from AE&CI which manufactured commercial explosives? MR HARE As far as I am aware they were the only company who were manufacturing military style explosive products. DR KLATZOW Correct. And Mr Hare, it will not have passed you by that South Africa was at the time, and it has been admitted officially, engaged in what turned out to be an abortive development of rockets? MR HARE DR KLATZOW Yes. And let me be a little more specific, there was the normal military weaponry type rocket, such as surface to air and air to air missiles? MR HARE Certainly. DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW Right. You must also be aware that the primary component in rocket fuel is a compound called ammonium perchlorate? MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE That is reverse engineering as I understand it. DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW Okay. Now, I want to put to you the following. That the military at the time in Angola were having a problem with new fighter jets and they were having a problem with the surface to air or air to air missiles and I want to put to you that it became extremely important for Armscor to develop a means for countering this threat and further I want to put to you that at the time the only way that was able to do that was by means of developing a better missile and that there was an urgent need to do that. Do you have any knowledge of that? MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE Dr Klatzow that would fall into the category of one of a variety of different solutions that Armscor could have been investigating at the time. The case is hypothetical. DR KLATZOW MR HARE Dr Klatzow you have indicated that there was an extremely urgent problem. I have no knowledge of that. You have indicated a scenario that indicates that Armscor would have wished to develop such a project or such a projectile and such a counter measure. I have no knowledge of that. DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW Correct. MR HARE And right up to now, you and I have probably not differed on the subject of what Armscor was busy doing and the ways that they would have used. I am certainly not aware of the situation whereby Armscor would have taken steps on an irresponsible basis to conduct importation of materials on any basis that was not particularly safe or that would have placed any particular, either aircraft or passenger aboard an aircraft at risk. DR KLATZOW MR HARE I think that you could qualify that by saying, by adding the rider that I have added. DR KLATZOW Okay. MR HARE I think that Armscor operated with integrity. Armscor in my opinion would not have undertaken such a risk. I would certainly not have been party to doing so had I known that that was going to happen. DR KLATZOW I understand that. Now you also as a chief executive of SAA are aware that I have personally phoned you in relation to this matter on a number of occasions some four years ago? MR HARE DR KLATZOW Well if it were in my power I would try and help you but you are a senior man at SAA? MR HARE Certainly. DR KLATZOW And you are aware that I questioned you some years ago about an incident which occurred at Ben Gurion Airport? MR HARE Correct. DR KLATZOW And you referred me to a pilot by the name of Captain Flippie Look? MR HARE Correct. DR KLATZOW Now at the time you also referred me to one of your senior technical people, a man by the name of Theuns Steyn, Theuns Kruger? MR HARE Theuns Kruger I believe. DR KLATZOW Correct, Dr Theuns Kruger. And your suggestion to me at the time was that SAA had been transporting mirage drop tanks and that the whole incident involved mirage drop tanks? MR HARE Dr Klatzow you were referring to an incident of which I had no knowledge. DR KLATZOW I accept that. MR HARE I referred you to the people who in my opinion could have assisted you in providing information regarding that concern. DR KLATZOW And they were very helpful. MR HARE And I understand that they were helpful. DR KLATZOW They were very helpful. MR HARE DR KLATZOW Now Captain Look, you know has an airforce background? MR HARE I know. DR KLATZOW You know that he flew mirages? MR HARE I understand that. DR KLATZOW MR HARE That may be. DR KLATZOW Now those have been loaded aboard SAA aircraft. MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE Thank you. DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW Are you aware that there is a cargo control man, a senior man called Mike Van Niekerk at Singapore Airport? MR HARE To the best of my knowledge Mr Van Niekerk was the station manager at Singapore. DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW I have only one last question. About, shortly after you joined SAA, a member of the operational staff, a member of staff of SAA had an altercation with you. And that altercation involved, shaking his hand in your face and saying, you know what is aboard the Helderberg. Do you remember that altercation? MR HARE DR KLATZOW Do you deny that it ever happened? MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR HARE Commissioner I do not wish to appear to be ducking the question or anything like that. I certainly have no recollection of such an incident. If somebody says that such an incident occurred and can quote me chapter and verse and the occasion on which it occurred maybe my recollection is incomplete. CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow, can you provide chapter and verse? DR KLATZOW MR HARE DR KLATZOW No. MR HARE DR KLATZOW MR HARE I think that a statement made like that would, if such a statement was made was totally incorrect. DR KLATZOW I accept that. Just one last question, did you know Mr Oslo? MR HARE I knew Mr Oslo. DR KLATZOW In what capacity did you know Mr Oslo? MR HARE I had worked together with Mr Oslo on a number of projects. DR KLATZOW And is it correct to say that Mr Oslo was part of an Armscor front company? MR HARE No. DR KLATZOW Did he have any dealings with Armscor? MR HARE Mr Oslo provided assistance to Armscor on a consultative basis, regarding a transaction that Armscor was interested in. DR KLATZOW That is correct. And the information which I have is that Mr Oslo did this on a regular basis? MR HARE I would certainly not have called it a regular basis. It may have been that there were other instances where I was not aware of his activity. In the particular case that I am aware of, it was really on a one off basis only. DR KLATZOW Was that a procurement function that he acted in? MR HARE No. DR KLATZOW Would you tell us what the function was that Mr Oslo? MR HARE It was the export of items from this country. DR KLATZOW And is there any reason why he could not have also been involved in a procurement facility for you? MR HARE I was certainly not aware of that. It would have been unusual I think because of the degree, the area of expertise that he was operating in. South Africa was not at the time producing the product in which he was a specialist. DR KLATZOW Thank you very much. MS TERREBLANCHE What was that product that he was a specialist in? MR HARE He was operating in the strategic oil fund. MS TERREBLANCHE And was he on an Armscor mission when he got killed in the Helderberg? MR HARE Not to my knowledge. MS TERREBLANCHE MR HARE MS TERREBLANCHE What is the name of that subsidiary or company? MR HARE MS TERREBLANCHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Terreblanche. Well it remains for me to thank you Mr Hare for having taken the time to come out and assist the Commission in its endeavour to re-visit the whole Helderberg enquiry and try and find out if we are any where near establishing the truth of what really happened. MR HARE Commissioner, may I thank you for paying me the compliment and may I also say that as I have said earlier, I truly believe that every single individual within the South African Airways would very dearly love to be able to get to the bottom of what caused the Helderberg incident but I also believe that every individual will offer you every assistance that they possibly can and will answer whatever question is possible in an attempt to get to find a solution as to the cause of the Helderberg incident. If I may provide further information at any stage please do not hesitate. I would welcome coming back and answering any further questions if cause arises. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You are excused Mr Hare. MR HARE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Terreblanche? MS TERREBLANCHE I think we should now call Mr Willemse, Mr Tienie Willemse. I believe the two of them need to.... CHAIRPERSON It is held privately so you can safely regard everybody here to have been sworn to confidentiality and so also will the evidence that will be taken here to not be made public and that decision will be the decision of the Commission as and when certain requirements have been complied with. We have translators who are also part of the Commission who are contracted to the Commission and who will be able to translate for us on any person who would prefer to take the evidence in English should you choose to give your evidence in Afrikaans. So you are entirely free to testify in the language you best would like to testify in. We will not be disadvantaged thereby because as you will see there are listening devices which will assist us to listen simultaneously as you speak in to the English version of your evidence. So if you want to speak in Afrikaans, please feel free to do so. I am a Commissioner in the Human Rights Violations Committee and are in the investigative unit. To my right is Mr Magadhla, Wilson, he is head of special investigations. He is also as you see a member of this panel. To the right is Ms Terreblanche, Chrystelle, who has investigated and has collected all information relevant to this hearing and with her is Dr David Klatzow who has been contracted to the Commission and who will give, will assist us in those technical aspects and in any of the aspects about this matter which is fairly familiar, having dealt with it on a substantial number of years thereafter. Ms Wildschut will therefore swear you in. MS WILDSCHUT Mr Willemse good morning. Do you have any objection to taking the oath? No objection. Could you state your full name for the record please? MR WILLEMSE Martinus Gerhardus Willemse. MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Ms Terreblanche? MS TERREBLANCHE Good morning Mr Willemse. Thanks for coming. I see we misspelt your name on the invitation. Sorry about that. MR WILLEMSE MS TERREBLANCHE May I just start off by asking you to explain to us your career in SAA. When you started and? MR WILLEMSE May I have the opportunity, as the Chairman said that Afrikaans is my mother tongue, that if it will be okay with you that I conduct the session in Afrikaans? MS TERREBLANCHE MR WILLEMSE Yes I can. MS TERREBLANCHE Please continue Mr Willemse. You may speak in Afrikaans. MR WILLEMSE MS TERREBLANCHE No. Not at all. Thank you. MR WILLEMSE The question is that I should briefly explain what my career was with SAA. I was asked to transfer to SAA during 1979. At that stage I was a member of the legal advisors team and was known then as the South African Railways and Harbours and I fulfilled a very specific role there. I had to appear on behalf of the old Railways and Harbours before the National Transport Commission to look after the so-called competition between road and rail. The reason why I asked to transfer to the airlines was because there was a commission of enquiry appointed at that time under the chairmanship of Justice Margo which had to look at the whole issue of a new airline policy for South Africa and the then deputy asked me to transfer to the airlines so that I could become a member of the Margo Commission itself, to advise them on the new aviation policy for South Africa. What was at stake was mainly the open skies policy which had taken hold in America at that stage and I followed it and some particulars and I attended some of the hearings in Washington at that stage to find out what the impact of the so-called open skies policy would be in South Africa. That was chiefly my role. To advise the South African Airways and to help with the activities of the Margo Commission which extended over a couple of years and that was very briefly the reason for my transfer to the South African Airways. It was a very specific instruction which I had. MS TERREBLANCHE At the time of the Helderberg disaster, could you please explain what your position was at SAA? MR WILLEMSE After the Margo Commission had been completed I acquired other responsibilities and I then moved in to the commercial side of the airlines and away from the pure legal side of matters. We used different titles initially. My title was trade director. There were two of us and then we subdivided it into the director of marketing and director of planning. Subsequently we changed it to chief director international. At that stage I was mainly responsible for the international or the commercial side of international services of SAA. There was no clear dividing line between domestic activities and the international activities because we were in the process of developing those as two separate products and we said that the internal scenario was aimed at a very specific public market and internationally speaking the target market was very different and I was chiefly engaged in the development of the root structure of the international section of South African Airlines. MS TERREBLANCHE Did that include passengers as well as cargo? MR WILLEMSE South African Airways at that stage was mainly a passenger enterprise. So the emphasis was on the development of routes for passenger purposes and where cargo could be added that was regarded as a bonus. From South Africa there was very little cargo but it was mainly perishables which depended very much on the season and the main route was towards Europe. MS TERREBLANCHE MR WILLEMSE No. The cargo which we carried was any commercial cargo which we could obtain in the market at competitive prices to bring it in, well in both directions. In other words, in to South Africa and from South Africa. The sanctions to which I am referring is this, the fact that SAA could not fly along the normal commercial routes which our competitors used. You will remember that since 1963, that was before my time, we could not use the shortest routes across Africa. So all our routes to Europe were via the West Coast of Africa or the stop at Sol Island. At some point most of our flights stopped. MS TERREBLANCHE Yes, now we understand that, I just want to make sure about this question, were you ever aware of the fact that cargo was carried or placed on SAA flights which were actually not destined for South Africa or which South Africa could actually not export due to sanctions? MR WILLEMSE No I was not aware of anything like that. MS TERREBLANCHE I think that Dr Klatzow wants to ask you a couple of questions. DR KLATZOW Thank you Mr Willemse. Do you have any objection if I ask my questions in English? And if you have any difficulty, you may just ask me. Mr Willemse, your duty with SAA was a legal advisory and a general commercial advisory capacity, was that not correct? MR WILLEMSE Initially a legal advisor in the sense only when I acted in the role of representing SAA at the Margo Commission of Enquiry into civil aviation. DR KLATZOW Correct, but at the time of the Helderberg. In 1988, your function was to oversee the commercial aspects of the international trade that SAA was doing? MR WILLEMSE DR KLATZOW And as such you would have been intimately involved with the accident and the following investigations and the matters that transpired as a result of the accident? MR WILLEMSE What we also did was that we attended as many of the memorial services as we could as a sign of our condolences. DR KLATZOW Yes, but the night of the accident were you at Jan Smuts Airport? MR WILLEMSE No. At no stage was I personally at Jan Smuts Airport during or after the accident. DR KLATZOW You were never in the operational room? MR WILLEMSE No. DR KLATZOW Along with Mickey Mitchell and others? MR WILLEMSE No. As I said, I set up an office in headquarters or I had an office in headquarters in Johannesburg and that is where I did my work from. DR KLATZOW Did you ever know a man, Tinus Jacobs who was working for SAA? MR WILLEMSE Tinus Jacobs was at some point and I think especially during the Helderberg disaster, he was our manager in Taiwan. DR KLATZOW MR WILLEMSE DR KLATZOW In the name of Crown Travel? MR WILLEMSE As far as I know, yes. Yes it is so. DR KLATZOW Who is his foremost client in that business, his best client? MR WILLEMSE DR KLATZOW MR WILLEMSE DR KLATZOW MR WILLEMSE Yes I know Vernon. DR KLATZOW What is his function at SAA at that stage? MR WILLEMSE At what stage are you referring to? DR KLATZOW The stage of the Helderberg disaster. MR WILLEMSE DR KLATZOW Right. Very well thank you. MS TERREBLANCHE MR WILLEMSE We met with them, we meaning South African Airways management and the management of the Pilots Association but then I have to add that I suspected he was there. MS TERREBLANCHE In 1985 Mr Flippie Look told us that he met you in Mauritius at the airport. You were there with your family. Can you recall that? MR WILLEMSE No. I think he was the pilot of the plane but. MS TERREBLANCHE Were you in Mauritius in 1985? MR WILLEMSE MS TERREBLANCHE Yes, but if I told you what he told me as to what he told you, maybe that will help you. He said that in June 1985 he landed at Tel Aviv Airport and whilst they were still in the plane looking or watching a movie, the cargo was off-loaded and he peeped out and there was a crate which had been broken and he said that he saw a missile inside this crate and this was confirmed to him by the freight or cargo controller at Ben Gurion Airport, the SAA man there. A week afterwards another South African pilot and I think you know Mr Deon Storm? MR WILLEMSE Yes, I do. MS TERREBLANCHE Exactly the same happened to him. Mr Look said that he expressed his concern about the situation to you and said that what happened then was that he had hoped that you would be able to explain this, clarify matters. But he was later called in and told that Mr Van Veer and Mr Mitchell had gone to Armscor and obtained assurances that that would not happen again. Can you recall this conversation? MR WILLEMSE MS TERREBLANCHE Can you not recall that you ever heard from anybody that they were worried about the cargo which they had to convey on SAA planes? MR WILLEMSE MS TERREBLANCHE MR WILLEMSE I have no idea. MS TERREBLANCHE MR WILLEMSE Any cargo which became available on any route where the tariff was worthwhile we would have accepted that. As far as I can remember our biggest concentration of cargo was from Germany into South Africa because I know we had a very active team and as far as I can remember Germany was the only South African Airways depot under the control of the Germans and which is very active in obtaining cargo. The system in Europe was that they moved cargoes by means of trucks and they concentrated on certain stations so if you ask me what were the places where there was the highest concentration of cargo then as far as I know and can remember it was from Frankfurt and also from Italy. We had a considerable amount of freight from Italy as a result of the fact that they used trucks extensively. MS TERREBLANCHE Were you ever aware of the fact that SAA conveyed goods for Armscor? MR WILLEMSE MS TERREBLANCHE What is good cargo? MR WILLEMSE That means cargo which generates a high tariff. I would compare that instance with the following. From South Africa we often sat with cargoes of perishable goods such as flowers etc., and at that stage it was a very low tariff cargo. It was subsidised to quite a high degree by the Department of Agriculture so the income which SAA got from that was very low. MS TERREBLANCHE Thank you. Dr Klatzow? CHAIRPERSON Commissioner Wildschut? MS WILDSCHUT Mr Willemse I just need to clarify for myself, you have a legal background? MR WILLEMSE MS WILDSCHUT And your interest and part of the reason why you came on board, pardon the pun, to SAA was because of your interest in policy? MR WILLEMSE My interest in? MS WILDSCHUT Policy, policy development. MR WILLEMSE MS WILDSCHUT Policy, yes, particularly airline policy and you were looking at open skies policy and so on from the US. And is it true to say that somebody whose involved in policy would be involved where the airline is experiencing difficulties such as accidents and so on that one would then want to re-look at what has happened, particularly with accidents to inform policy? MR WILLEMSE The policy which I was looking at was totally different to for instance safety policy because airline policy and aviation policy is something quite independent and very specialised. It was very important for us in South Africa to understand what was happening globally. The two things which were very closely interconnected were the following. What was the policy in other countries in respect of aviation policy and that is reflected in your bilateral air agreements and was important for us to understand what the policy would be of our department of transport and especially civil aviation, how would they structure our air agreements in future. As against the situation with a disaster or an accident like the Helderberg, that is a completely different field and I would like to answer you as follows. The reason why I did not become involved at all in the Helderberg disaster was that after the accident took place I played a very limited role because I was looking at the marketing side of things and I was managing the affairs of the next of kin. All the other legal aspects, for instance in dealing with the finalisation of claims, claims instituted by the next of kin, negotiations with our insurers. There were several sets of negotiations involved. The settlement of claims in South Africa and also in other countries where passengers came from, such as Japan, Taiwan, Korea, I think there were passengers as far afield as England and the United States. MS WILDSCHUT A question I was going to ask and that was about claims, insurance claims and so on. Are you saying that the insurance claims were not handled by SAA but by some other department and so which department, if you can just repeat that for me? MR WILLEMSE MS WILDSCHUT Right. MR WILLEMSE MS WILDSCHUT And as marketing chief at that time, would you have co-ordinated all of those functions, would you have insured, MR WILLEMSE No. MS WILDSCHUT That people were reasonably happy with claims and insurance payouts and so on? MR WILLEMSE So, in the case of the Helderberg, if I remember correctly, the maximum amount which could be paid to any passenger or next of kin was defined in the conditions adhering to your ticket which said that the liability of the airline is subject to the following international treaties as amended by the Hague Protocol and whatever conventions which were applicable. So, it was quite neatly circumscribed and all that had to be determined by the insurers was actually the ultimate quantum, the amount which had to be paid out and we found that in the case of the Helderberg, the insurers were prepared to go for the maximum amount that could be paid out because I think that the dilemma which they faced was that once they started settling in a country such as Taiwan for instance, the Japanese and the Koreans would expect exactly the same settlement to make sure that there was no discrimination. MS WILDSCHUT So are you saying that there were differential payments made out to the different passengers on the flight? MR WILLEMSE No. MS WILDSCHUT Based on the tickets they have and the class they were flying or whatever. MR WILLEMSE No. MS WILDSCHUT Or relationship between the insurer and the countries that these people came from? MR WILLEMSE No. There was no difference. That is the point I am trying to make. The settlements which were concluded made very certain that there was no distinction made between passengers so there was parity in the offers made in terms of settlement to next of kin. MS WILDSCHUT MR WILLEMSE Yes. MS WILDSCHUT And then you had employees of the company who are also victims of this disaster, particularly the crew and so on. Now in terms of SAA and insurance paid out to employees. Can you explain to us what happened there? MR WILLEMSE MS WILDSCHUT You are aware of the fact that Mrs Uys is very unhappy? Do you know about the fact that she feels that she was dropped by SAA? MR WILLEMSE No, I am not aware of that. MS WILDSCHUT Thank you. MR MAGADHLA Mr Willemse, were you ever aware of allegations that this plane carried dangerous material, dangerous cargo? MR WILLEMSE Do you mean allegations? MR MAGADHLA From next of kin of some of the passengers and from a lot of other people. Newspapers included. MR WILLEMSE I am aware that long after the accident there was speculation at one stage in the newspapers. I cannot recall exactly when it was but there was speculation in the newspapers that there had been dangerous goods on board. That would surely have been about four to five years, it might have been more recent than that. I am aware of that yes. I read that. It must have been in one or other English newspaper that there was speculation about this possibility. So I do have knowledge of that type of speculation. MR MAGADHLA Are you saying your knowledge of such would have been confined to it having been expressed by newspapers and others whereas in this case there was actually the wife of the pilot who also complained, would you have regarded that as part of the rumour or the conspiracy by those people, the papers and others? MR WILLEMSE I am also not aware of the fact that there was a specific person, such as, for example the wife of a pilot who spoke to me or anyone else or where I was present and said that there were dangerous goods on board that aeroplane, no. MR MAGADHLA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Magadhla. Anything? MS TERREBLANCHE I think we have no further questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Terreblanche. Mr Willemse, thank you very much for having come and for having taken the trouble to come even with the shortest of notices and we value the information that you have been able to share with us. You are excused. MR WILLEMSE Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to start? Mr Nadel, thank you very much for being here. This is a closed enquiry held in terms of Section 29 of the Act. All evidence that should be taken under oath remains confidential and will so remain until the Commission releases it subject to the requirements of the Act. So everybody who is here has the permission to be here by reason of the fact that they are either invited to be here or have been subpoenaed to be here or are employees of the Commission. I was going to ask Commissioner Glenda Wildschut to swear you in before you testify but she is not here, she is otherwise engaged. The investigator who has done most of the investigative work, in fact actually all of it, is Chrystelle Terreblanche who is sitting to our right and she has Dr Klatzow, David Klatzow who is a forensic expert and who has been contracted to the Commission to assist us in the presentation of the evidence. In the interest of progress I will therefore swear you in, if you can stand. There is a red button there which you will press whenever you speak, thank you. Now what are your full names for the record Mr Nadel? MR NADEL Vernon Nadel. VERNON NADEL (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON The witness has been sworn in Ms Terreblanche. MS TERREBLANCHE Thank you Mr Chair. You may sit, thank you Mr Nadel. Thanks for coming. Mr Nadel we have invited you to come here to just tell us about your role on that fateful night at the ZUR centre, Springbok Radio Centre at the former Jan Smuts Airport. We believe you have come all the way from Argentina and we are very thankful to you for making that time. Commissioner Ntsebeza I think that Dr Klatzow will do all the questioning in this one. CHAIRPERSON Very well, Dr Klatzow? DR KLATZOW Thank you Mr Commissioner. Thank you very much Mr Nadel. Mr Nadel, when did you join SAA? MR NADEL 2nd June 1969. DR KLATZOW And by the time of the Helderberg operation what was your position? MR NADEL I was then the duty officer in flight operations. DR KLATZOW Junior officer? MR NADEL Duty officer. DR KLATZOW The duty officer. What did your position entail? MR NADEL I was responsible for overseeing the flight operations, the radio station ZUR, as well as if and when any crew needed flight plans. This job entailed day shift as well as night shift. Obviously the functions at night were different to the functions during the day. DR KLATZOW Now is it correct to say that ZUR is a permanent radio station at what was then Jan Smuts Airport? MR NADEL Yes, at the time, yes. DR KLATZOW And is it correct to say that it was manned twenty four hours a day by a staff of three people? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Gavin Dick was the radio operator. DR KLATZOW In other words there were at least two people there that night? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And is he geographically quite distant from you, the duty officer? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Right. What was the difference in rank between you and Mr Gavin Dick? MR NADEL If you want to take it on the scale of a clerk, he was a clerk grade 1 and I would have been a senior clerk, with one gap between. So in other words I was two ahead of him. DR KLATZOW Is it also true that ZUR has a permanent tape recording of all the messages which are transmitted on that transmitter? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW And that the tapes are twenty four hour, slightly over twenty four hour tapes? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Correct. And that there is a dual recording system whereby one tape immediately kicks in? MR NADEL If the one ends, the other one immediately kicks in, yes. DR KLATZOW And that the tapes are stored in large containers with a yellow or a description written onto the container? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And that those tapes are rotated on about a month or six weekly cycle? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW No but it would be something that I would have to break the lock or damage it in some way to get in? MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Who had the keys to the cabinet? MR NADEL That was in ZUR at the time. DR KLATZOW Were you in charge of the ZUR keys? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But you would know if somebody took a tape out? MR NADEL Actually no. DR KLATZOW Who would know? MR NADEL The person in ZUR, the radio operator. DR KLATZOW Gavin Dick would have known? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Now the person who was on duty immediately before you, his name was Mr Du Toit? MR NADEL No, Mr Du Toit was on duty in ZUR, he handed over his shift to Gavin Dick. DR KLATZOW Correct. And his shift ended at what time? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And normally he would go home? Correct? There would be no reason for him to stay on? MR NADEL Unless he wanted to spend a few minutes talking. He would normally do the hand-over and then leave. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Can you give me any reason why he was still there next morning and served a double shift that night? MR NADEL He did not stay that night. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I have no idea. DR KLATZOW Do you think he was lying? MR NADEL I believe he was probably confused. DR KLATZOW Why would he be confused about that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW Now, what time did the tape change over occur that night? MR NADEL Sorry, can you repeat the question? DR KLATZOW What time did the tape change over occur that night? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Did it occur during your shift? MR NADEL I believe it probably did yes. DR KLATZOW So you were there when the tape was changed over? MR NADEL I would have been in the office yes. Not necessarily in ZUR when the tape was being changed. DR KLATZOW Would you have known that the tape was changed over? MR NADEL Not necessarily no. It was a routine kind of operation. It was never a case that you had to go and check on it and to see that it was done correctly, no. DR KLATZOW So at some stage the tape, during your shift was changed over? MR NADEL Possibly. DR KLATZOW Now, in addition to that, who else was at ZUR with you that night? MR NADEL The operations controller was with me, Pete Pelser. DR KLATZOW What was his name? MR NADEL Peter Pelser. DR KLATZOW And did he, what was his function? MR NADEL He was what we call the operations controller. He would fill out the logs of the movements for during the day. The night shift was basically there to prepare the documentation for the next day as well as to complete the logs for the flights that were still flying. Domestic flights that is. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Well, the main function was to monitor the movement of all aircraft world-wide and that was during the time of us flying around the bulge and DR KLATZOW Correct. MR NADEL They needed to know where the aircraft were. DR KLATZOW In other words it was not, it was not an operation which was simply designed to make sure that there was a wheelchair ready at the terminal? MR NADEL Not at all. DR KLATZOW It was a serious operation and the pilots would communicate to you if there was anything serious which happened on board the aircraft? MR NADEL If they felt they had to yes. DR KLATZOW Well, if there was a major problem aboard an aircraft it is very likely that they would have communicated that to their home base? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Nobody has ever suggested to you that it was legal requirement but nonetheless it was in existence and it was an expensive operation and it was not there simply to monitor the number of face towels aboard the aircraft and whether or not the hostees were running out of water and that you needed, it had more serious functions in that it was to keep track of South African Airways fleet during a difficult period in their history? MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Not necessarily. The communication may not have been there at the time. DR KLATZOW But sooner or later there would have been communication. And I accept fully that they would have communicated with the nearest FIR but at some stage it is likely that they would tell you. What is the point of ZUR being informed for instance that they had taken off uneventfully? MR NADEL Well that was the normal operation. You would normally get a call top of climb and then during the course of the flight and then again at the descent. That is if the aircraft could communicate weather wise as far as static. We all know that radios are not. DR KLATZOW Well is it as simple as that Mr Nadel? MR NADEL I think at this particular time yes. If I may mention and it was mentioned at the Margo Commission that the radio station had actually had a lightning strike, some time before, so communications were not up to standard at the time. DR KLATZOW Mr Nadel, my information is that the lightning strike and your evidence at the Margo Commission was that the lightning strike had disabled the cell call facility? MR NADEL That is correct. DR KLATZOW And that it had not disabled the rest of the facility? MR NADEL No, the radios were still working but as I mentioned it could well have affected the reception of the transmissions. DR KLATZOW Correct. But did it? MR NADEL Well obviously in this case, yes because. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Was there any difficulty that you were aware of? MR NADEL It appears not, no. DR KLATZOW What would suddenly make that difficulty? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Is there not a requirement that you make, try and make contact with the aircraft every hour to hour and a half? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And what effort did you expend to try and raise the aircraft after it failed to contact you, on the hour, the first time, on the hour? MR NADEL Well the aircraft was cell called but they failed to reply. DR KLATZOW So you cell called it and it failed to reply? What action did you take? MR NADEL Well there is no action to take, it happens quite often, well it used to happen very often that the aircraft would not call you. DR KLATZOW And is there not a laid down procedure whereby you try and contact them via speed bird or one of the other means of raising them? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Now at the hearing, the Margo hearing, that was not your evidence. MR NADEL It was my evidence. I believe somebody else said there was standing orders. DR KLATZOW The evidence that was led at the Margo Commission was that if the aircraft was not contacted, it was a serious matter and that you would go to considerable lengths to try and contact them? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW And amongst those people was a man called Leon, sorry Nils Van Wyk who used to work for the SABC? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW He phoned you when you were in Miami, as did I. MR NADEL Oh yes I do recall now, yes. DR KLATZOW And at the time he asked you similar questions to the ones that I am asking you now, namely who was on duty with you that night? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Listen to the question very carefully. He asked you who was there and you said to him, there was myself and Gavin Dick and there was a third person whom we will call Mr X and in his report and in his contemporaneous notes he refers to this person as Mr X. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW No, he says you specifically refused to mention his name. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But you did tell him there was a third person and that person he called Mr X? MR NADEL Possibly. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW How did it get out of ZUR? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Do you remember the tape being taken? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Absolutely not. DR KLATZOW Correct. So somebody must have come and taken it? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Did anybody ever hand it back to ZUR? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW When you tape record, and put a tape on, is taken strictly from the end of the row that you take, is that not correct? MR NADEL That is correct. DR KLATZOW You would not go to the middle of the row of tapes and take a tape out? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Well under what circumstances could a gross mistake of that nature be made? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Could you suggest a circumstance where somebody would under standing orders to take the tape from the end, goes to the middle of the row of tapes and takes the tape out? MR NADEL I have no idea. DR KLATZOW Do you think that that is a likely possibility? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL That is correct. DR KLATZOW And not only that there was really very little enquiry into the disappearance of that tape by Mr Margo? MR NADEL Sorry, can you repeat the question? DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I believe so yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL That is possible yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes, more than likely. DR KLATZOW Was that ever done? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Did you ever do it? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Did anybody to your knowledge ever do it? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Can I just ask, at the time of the enquiry, did you personally become aware that it was muted as one of the possibilities that the tape was overtaped? MR NADEL Yes, I believe it was. CHAIRPERSON And did you seek to establish where the tape was and whether in fact the tape should not be taken to the enquiry if that was a moot question? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow. DR KLATZOW And yet that never happened? MR NADEL I understand not. DR KLATZOW Nobody ever went to Margo and said, here is the tape that was overtaped? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And if that is the case then we can safely assume that the tape was not overtaped? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW At the time of the Margo enquiry that speculation was rife? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW The most sinister interpretation possible had been placed on that tape? In fact it was rumoured at the time, it was said at the time that there was a conversation between ZUR and Captain Uys claiming to know something about the cargo and demanding permission to land? MR NADEL Not on my shift, no. DR KLATZOW Just listen to me. And listen to the question. The question was, at the time of the Margo enquiry which you were involved in, you knew about that rumour? MR NADEL There were a lot of rumours that were rife at the time. DR KLATZOW Did you know about that rumour? MR NADEL There was a rumour that there was somebody in ZUR that was speaking to the aircraft, telling the aircraft they could not divert. DR KLATZOW And that rumour has the most sinister implication possible for the airline? MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW So we can safely assume that there is no record of in your knowledge or in the Margo Commission of that event having occurred? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL We can assume that then. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Do you remember Captain Jimmy Deel coming in and taking the tape out? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW When did you go off duty? MR NADEL When did I go off duty? DR KLATZOW Yes. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Before you left that day, that tape had been taken out of ZUR. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Who else was in the operations centre that night? MR NADEL Is this after the, after the DR KLATZOW After the notification of the accident? MR NADEL I initiated an emergency call list. There could have been any thing or any amount from 20 to 40 people. DR KLATZOW Was Captain Mickey Mitchell there? MR NADEL I believe he came later. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Who did you call that night? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Certainly. DR KLATZOW But just read the names out. MR NADEL So Captain Mitchell was called at 0040, I called Captain Dries, I called Mr Davidson, Mr Britz, Mr Kate, Mr Willemse, Mr Botha, Mr Verster, Mr Roux ...[inaudible], Dr Van Der Spuy, Mr Klaase. DR KLATZOW What time did you call Mr Willemse? MR NADEL Mr Willemse was called at 0109. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Tienie Willemse, yes. DR KLATZOW What did you want him to do and what did he do? MR NADEL Well I notified everybody on this list and the normal procedure was they would either decide whether they wanted to come out to operations, go to airways head office. DR KLATZOW Did Tienie Willemse come to operations? MR NADEL I believe he would have yes. DR KLATZOW Was he there that night? MR NADEL I seem to think so yes. DR KLATZOW Do you remember seeing him there? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But it would be the likely thing for him to do? Did Mickey Mitchell get there that night? MR NADEL Yes, I believe Mickey Mitchell was there. DR KLATZOW What time? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But do you think that having been declared an emergency and having been told that there was a potential for an aircraft missing, do you think he would have dawdled his way to the airport? MR NADEL No, not at all. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes, and let me just point out this is GMT time. DR KLATZOW Yes. But tell us in South African time to avoid confusion. MR NADEL Captain Mitchell would have been at 2.40 in the morning. DR KLATZOW In the morning, local time. Did you phone Gert Van Der Veer? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW What time was Mr Viv Lewis called? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Correct. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW No, but he would have come in immediately? MR NADEL If not to flight ops, he would have gone to the engineering department. DR KLATZOW Now, in your statement that you made to Nils Van Wyk, you said that Mickey Mitchell was present? MR NADEL Could well have been, yes. DR KLATZOW And you also recalled that Jimmy Deal was there? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Not only did you recall that Jimmy Deal was there, you recalled that Tienie Willemse was there? MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW And in addition to Tienie Willemse you made the statement that the last person to have contact with that tape was a man by the name of Connie Booysen? MR NADEL Yes, Connie Booysen was the assistant manager of flight ops responsible for the radio station. DR KLATZOW And he would have had access to that tape? MR NADEL I believe so, yes. DR KLATZOW Can you think of any reason why Mr Willemse would deny that he was there that night? MR NADEL Like I say, I called him and whether he went through to head office or not, I cannot recall, I cannot recall seeing him. DR KLATZOW Mr Nadel, you are under oath and I want to remind you of your reply to my previous question. I put to you that on a previous occasion you had stated to a man that you remembered Van Der Veer, Mitchell, Deal and Willemse being present at ZUR. And when I put that to you stated, under oath that you remembered that they were there. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW You confirmed it in the previous question I put to you that they were there. MR NADEL I cannot recall. DR KLATZOW Now, and it is likely that they would have been there? MR NADEL As I say, not necessarily, some could have gone to engineering, some could have gone to the head office which is in Johannesburg, some could have come to flight operations. DR KLATZOW Right. Now, when was the, when, do you remember when DCA came looking for that tape? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Do you know who gave them a tape? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Do you not know how the tape was taken out of ZUR that night? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Getting back to Mr Willemse. You remember quite well being questioned by Nils? MR NADEL Well he came to speak to me and it was an open discussion over a cup of coffee. DR KLATZOW And he made a contemporaneous note of that because you asked him not to use a tape recorder or bring a note pad? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But surely the best way to be not quoted out of context is to either allow him to tape record it or to allow him to make a note? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But then why speak to him at all? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL As I say, I had been spoken to by many people. There was a lot of speculation, the newspapers were full of it and to tell you the truth, I was getting a little sick and tired of the reporters. DR KLATZOW Yes, but your actions in fact went further towards promoting the rumour than to have been open and said, tape record me, I have nothing to hide. Here it is. And yet you refused to allow him to do that. MR NADEL I made that statement to some other investigative reporters saying that I am quite happy to appear in front of any board or enquiry to get this whole thing over and past. DR KLATZOW "Mr Nadel said that in addition to Van Der Veer, Mickey Mitchell was also present as was Jimmy Deal and Tienie Willemse. Nadel could not elaborate as to why these persons were there, he later asked me not to mention the fact that Willemse was present at the facility." Why did you do that? MR NADEL That is not true. DR KLATZOW So is Mr Van Wyk lying? MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW You never said that? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON No but the question is, did you ever say to him that he should not mention that Willemse was there? MR NADEL No. CHAIRPERSON Is it a coincidence that Willemse also said to us here that he was not there? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow. DR KLATZOW You were at the Margo enquiry? MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW Who sat next to you? MR NADEL I cannot recall that. DR KLATZOW Do you remember Jimmy Mitton sitting close by you? MR NADEL He may well have been because there was a lot of airline personnel sitting around that area. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And if he says that you would not deny it? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW He has a very clear memory of that. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW When Mr Dick failed to raise the Helderberg on his shift, did he come and see you? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW What did he say to you? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Despite the fact there were standing orders? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Did you try to place, to put into place any of the procedures to try and raise the aircraft? MR NADEL The procedures were to cell call aircraft or to call them blindly on HF on the frequencies that they should be on and we tried that. DR KLATZOW Did you do that? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW How often did you try and do that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And yet other evidence which has been led before various people and commissions and enquiries into this have led us to believe that the communications on that particular route were good most of the time, 85% plus at the time? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Well if the aircraft cannot call you it would be virtually impossible for us to have known that. DR KLATZOW Would it not be important for you to know that there was major trouble aboard the aircraft so that you could initiate some kind of assistance? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW What happens if it is a peculiarly sensitive issue that needed to be discussed? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Would he not have called you? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW You see the rumour is and has been for a long time that Captain Uys called ZUR and asked for permission to land after the first fire? MR NADEL I believe that is the rumour yes. DR KLATZOW Is there no truth in that? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Do you think that that ZUR tape no longer exists Mr Nadel? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And you say that there is nothing on that tape? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW If I were to tell you that a copy of that tape exists, what would be your answer? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And that that tape has been kept in a security establishment for the last ten years. MR NADEL I would be more than happy to listen to that tape. DR KLATZOW Do you think there is any reason why a major country would keep a tape of this nature in a security set up if there was nothing on it? MR NADEL I would not want to speculate but as I said, I would more than welcome that tape to be made public to dispel all the rumours that have been going on. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL You mentioned that yes. DR KLATZOW Do you remember that Gavin Dick approached you at the hearing and said what am I going to tell them about the failure to contact ZUR? MR NADEL I cannot recall that. DR KLATZOW Jimmy Mitton will tell this Commission and will tell a Court of enquiry that he overheard Gavin Dick say that to you. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Why would he say that to you if you had already given him those instructions at ZUR that night? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Why would he come to you at the Margo enquiry and say, what am I going to tell them? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Well could you give me a reasonable explanation? MR NADEL I have no explanation to give you. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL I think maybe just the mere presence of the board in front of him. He was a junior employee and may have been intimidated. CHAIRPERSON What would intimidate him in going to speak the truth? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow? DR KLATZOW Mr Nadel, Jimmy Mitton will come under oath and say that that is what he heard, overheard between you and Gavin Dick. And I want to put it to you, for your comment, that there is only one explanation and that is that the conversation that you claim to have had with Gavin Dick that night at ZUR did not occur? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I cannot give you an explanation for that. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I spoke to Gavin Dick on the night. DR KLATZOW Well did you have the conversation that you allege that you had with him? MR NADEL During the evening? DR KLATZOW Yes. MR NADEL I would believe so yes. I cannot recall exact words and times and dates. DR KLATZOW If that is true then there would have been no need for him to ask you what he needed to tell Mr Margo? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW That is likely, overwhelmingly likely I want to put it to you. MR NADEL I cannot comment on that. DR KLATZOW At the time of the enquiry you were aware of the rumours. You were also aware that the tape was given to Mr Mickey Mitchell? MR NADEL I would believe so yes. I cannot recall but I would believe so yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I would believe so yes. DR KLATZOW That tape went missing. Who do you blame for the fact that that tape went missing? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I would understand that yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Is that correct? MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW Who was the next person up in authority, easily available that evening at your station? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Mr Van Der Veer was there? MR NADEL He was there yes. DR KLATZOW And it would be like to him, it would be the obvious person to have there. He was the chief executive officer? MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Oh yes. DR KLATZOW And had the tape been taken out of ZUR by Jimmy Deel, passed on to Mickey Mitchell, it is likely that it would have come into the hands of Gert Van Der Veer? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Well Jimmy Deal who is unfortunately dead told me on a tape recording that he handed the tape to Mickey Mitchell and Gert Van Der Veer. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And that would not be unlikely? MR NADEL Not unlikely no. MS TERREBLANCHE Mr Nadel you said you were very concerned about the speculation? MR NADEL Absolutely. MS TERREBLANCHE Until today. You are aware that SAA had an in-house enquiry about the Helderberg about three years ago? MR NADEL I believe so yes. MS TERREBLANCHE So yes. My question is, were you not invited? MR NADEL MS TERREBLANCHE In addition to that, did anybody ever ask you whether there was a conversation with the Helderberg? MR NADEL Yes. MS TERREBLANCHE Did they ask you again during the in-house enquiry? MR NADEL That was one of the questions that the chief executive asked me. He said was there anybody and was there a conversation and I said no. I was very adamant about that. MS TERREBLANCHE So you were not required to come to South Africa for that enquiry? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow? DR KLATZOW MR NADEL It could have happened yes. DR KLATZOW There was that facility? MR NADEL There was that facility yes. DR KLATZOW And did anybody outside of ZUR that night speak to the Helderberg? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW And that it occupied approximately 30 minutes? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW You will also be aware that SAA serves meals at the beginnings of flights, not at the end of flights? MR NADEL I think each route is totally different, depending on the time of the day. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL It would imply that dinner was being served or somebody was asking what is on the menu for the dinner. DR KLATZOW Well if it appears from that tape recording that dinner was served to the entire cockpit crew what would it imply? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Well it would imply that that cockpit voice recorder recorded that event at the time of dinner which would have been closer to the beginning of the flight rather than to Mauritius. MR NADEL It would probably imply that yes. DR KLATZOW Yes, it would imply that. Could you give me a better explanation? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Right. We know that the cockpit voice recorder ceased to function because of the effects of fire? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW And therefore because it is a half hour recorded message which goes over itself and records only the last half hour, it means that that cockpit voice recorder ceased to function closer to Taipei than Mr Margo would have had us believe. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But it stopped functioning as a result of fire. You can accept that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And it recorded a conversation about dinner? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW The official record Mr Nadel is that it recorded a conversation about dinner. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL More than likely yes. DR KLATZOW Now, do you know what the standing instructions to pilots are if they have a fire on board? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW It then says, seek the nearest available airfield and land as soon as possible. Does that make sense? MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW If Uys had had a fire on board, is it not likely that he would have, at that stage, outside Taipei, two hours, three hours from Taipei, is it not likely that he would have sought to land that aircraft? MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW Do you think he would have done that off his own bat? MR NADEL I would believe so yes. DR KLATZOW Despite the fact that if he had known that there was contraband cargo aboard, do you still think he would have done it off his own bat? MR NADEL I would believe so yes. DR KLATZOW So he would have landed the aircraft and risked foreign countries who were hostile to South Africa searching the aircraft to find military contraband aboard. Do you think he would have done that without contacting you? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW So he would have landed willy nilly and placed the entire future of the airline in jeopardy because if that had become public knowledge to the authorities at Bombay or wherever these places were along the route it would have effectively have taken South Africa out of the skies. MR NADEL Possibly but you would have had a hundred odd people alive still. DR KLATZOW And you think Uys would have risked sinking South African Airways having thought that he had put the fire out, do you think he would have risked South African Airways merely to comply with a regulation? MR NADEL I think if he felt in his mind that the fire was out he would have continued. But I think if he knew in his mind that the fire was uncontrollable he would have landed. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW If that fire had been extinguished. The standing regulations require you to go down and examine the aircraft because it is possible that major structural could have been done to the aircraft by the fire? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL You mean that he continued? DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Gone down. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL That was obvious. DR KLATZOW Correct. He went down in flames outside of Mauritius. MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Which means that if the argument that there was an earlier fire was correct, he did not go down. He did not follow those eminently sensible instructions and go down. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Are you in any doubt that a discussion about dinner being served in the cockpit was recorded? MR NADEL No, I have no doubt. DR KLATZOW Right. Now that must mean and there is no other explanation. I want to put it to you that that tape recorder must have recorded that outside Taipei when dinner was served and ceased functioning shortly thereafter? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Well if it is only possible give me another possibility. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Even if it was slightly later? CHAIRPERSON I think what the proposition has been or the perusing that has been made was that we must logically accept that whatever the time period was after the aircraft had departed from Taipei, whether it was an hour or two hours or even three hours, that recording, if it is a recording of dinner being served must be an indication that it was done closer to the time that the aircraft left Taipei than closer to the time that the aircraft was about to descend on Mauritius. MR NADEL I accept that. DR KLATZOW Now, can you think of a single reason why Mr Uys, having put out the fire would not go downstairs and check that his aircraft was indeed safe and indeed check that he was not going to have a tragedy such as the one which unfolded outside Mauritius? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL It appears not. DR KLATZOW Now, under those circumstances, do you not think that it is reasonable that he would have called up ZUR, or tried to call up ZUR? MR NADEL He probably would have tried yes. DR KLATZOW And he would have kept trying with the contingencies of the operation that he was dealing with but clearly it was, the aircraft was serviceable enough for him to make it from wherever he was at that time to just outside, one hundred and something nautical miles outside Mauritius, there would have been some opportunity for him to raise ZUR? MR NADEL If the communications were possible, yes. DR KLATZOW And it is the sort of thing that he would have told ZUR? MR NADEL Definitely. If he had got through to ZUR, he would have told ZUR that he had a problem and he needed to speak to somebody. DR KLATZOW And it is not far fetched that he would have made every effort to get through to ZUR? MR NADEL Absolutely. Not far fetched. DR KLATZOW Now what you are postulating is that for over three quarters of the flight of that aircraft the communications were so bad that no possibility existed that he could raise ZUR. Is that not far fetched? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW How often has that happened before? MR NADEL I would say many times. DR KLATZOW Was it a common occurrence? MR NADEL Not common, but not uncommon either. DR KLATZOW Now could you give me an explanation as to why Mr Du Toit says that it was a very uncommon experience, particularly on that sector? MR NADEL I cannot speak on behalf of Mr Du Toit, no. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW Now please. Make up your mind, one way or the other. Is it common or uncommon? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Give me a reasonable explanation why Mr Du Toit would want to come and lie to the Commission and say that it is in fact a very uncommon occurrence? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW He gets nothing out of saying that. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I believe there was speculation that there was a so-called standing orders, but there was no such a thing. DR KLATZOW Well Margo in fact, if you look at Margo, Margo found that there was indeed a procedure to be followed? MR NADEL It was mentioned at the hearing, yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Would you bear with me one moment Mr Commissioner, could we just take a three minute break while I find the relevant quotes? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow? DR KLATZOW Thank you Mr Chairman. You see at the Margo enquiry Mr Du Toit would have no reason to lie or to fabricate. He said certain things which you are contradicting flatly? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Those things are incidentally the following. There is a procedure that is correct and this normally gets done and if that fails then we contact by any other international station like Speedbird, London and ask them to contact the aircraft. Is that not true? MR NADEL I am aware of that. That statement was made at the Margo Commission as well and I flatly refute that. There is no such a standing order. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Did you give evidence at the Margo Commission? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I believe I did yes. DR KLATZOW Were you cross examined on that? MR NADEL I believe so yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I believe he did say that yes. DR KLATZOW Why would he say that to you Mr Nadel? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW I want to put it to you that he has the same feeling that I have as I am cross examining you now. That you are saying these things and that they did not occur. MR NADEL I actually have a briefing notice with me of the procedures to follow as far as making contact with aircraft and I would be happy to give you a copy. DR KLATZOW I would like a copy please. Mr Nadel, one of the things that has to be done is that the logbook has to be signed in. Is that not correct? MR NADEL Whoever hands over to the other person, the logbook is signed yes. DR KLATZOW Did you ever see the log book for the, have you ever had a look at that logbook? MR NADEL I have seen it at the enquiry I believe yes. DR KLATZOW Could you give me an explanation as to why, that logbook was never tampered with? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And it is an official document, an important document? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And the signature of the man filling it in appears at the bottom of the page? MR NADEL I seem to recall yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Actually yes I can. DR KLATZOW Let me hear it. MR NADEL Mr Du Toit was actually a strange gentleman. And he would come on duty and sign three or four pages with the idea that we would be filling them in as he goes along. And that is the explanation that I can give you. DR KLATZOW Why would he do that? MR NADEL It was just his mannerism. He used to do it all the time. DR KLATZOW Was that ever crossed out? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW You saw the document? MR NADEL I cannot recall. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I would probably have signed my name either over it or next to it or crossed it out, sure. DR KLATZOW Did you do that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Who was? MR NADEL Mr Dick. DR KLATZOW We deal with another issue for the moment. How would you describe your job there. Would you describe it as a senior position in the airline, would you describe it as a fairly junior position at that time? MR NADEL I would say bordering on becoming more senior. DR KLATZOW More senior? MR NADEL Well bordering on becoming more senior. DR KLATZOW What does that mean in answer to my question. Were you or were you not a junior? MR NADEL I was a junior yes. DR KLATZOW And what is your position now? MR NADEL I am manager for South America. DR KLATZOW What was your position in Miami? MR NADEL I was manager for Miami. DR KLATZOW Area manager? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Is that a senior position? MR NADEL Middle management. DR KLATZOW What was your salary at ZUR? MR NADEL I cannot recall. DR KLATZOW Roughly? Did you earn hundreds, thousands or millions? MR NADEL Thousands. DR KLATZOW How many thousands? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW What was your salary in Miami? Was it a substantial increase? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW How much increase? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Double, treble? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW CHAIRPERSON You are not, with respect Mr, you are not being asked to speculate. I mean you are being asked to give an indication. I think there is a point here and I am sure you will appreciate in due course. Unless you have a very good reason why you should not give us an indication or an explanation but we are certainly not asking you to speculate what your salary is. MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL In 1990 they advertised in the national press as well as internally within the airline for trainee overseas managers. I applied for the job in 1990 along with 160 others from all walks of life, within the airline, from outside of the airline. I went through a process of psychometric testing. I did management courses and was eventually invited in January 1991 to be interviewed. I got through the interview, there were ten of us left. Eventually two people decided on their own to step down from the training course and I then proceeded to go on a years training course as an overseas manager. I did various functional, non functional management courses. Functional courses within the airline, reservations, ticketing, sales, marketing. In actual fact my latest appointment to South America, Mr Nombeti approved himself. DR KLATZOW CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL No no. CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Dr Klatzow? DR KLATZOW Thank you Mr Nadel. Now earlier on I dealt with the issue of standing orders with you and you said that if Mr Du Toit said that there were standing orders and that there was a standing instruction, that he was mistaken and that there was no such thing? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Is it possible that both Mr Du Toit and Mr Dick could be wrong? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW On this issue? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW So they are both wrong and you are right? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Let me read you what Mr Dick says. In response to a question from Mr Du Toit he says, Mr Dick says, "I presume we all have our own way of working but the standing order is between one and a half and two hours, up to two hours is acceptable. Where is this standing order? It is kept on file at ZUR Radio Station" Is he lying? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Please answer my question. Is Mr Dick lying? MR NADEL I believe he made a false statement, yes. DR KLATZOW Why would he want to do that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Mr Dick went into the details of what needed to be done. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW That is correct. But they differ from you, both of them differ from you in saying that despite the fact that there are standing orders you say there are no such standing orders? MR NADEL Absolutely. The only standing orders I have is I believe I gave you the copy. DR KLATZOW Now I did not have the advantage at the Margo enquiry of seeing your demeanour in the witness box. But Mr Southwood did. Mr Southwood put it to you very bluntly that you were lying. He said you are making up what you are telling this commission. Why would he do that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Could you give me a reason? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Let us go through the problem that we have with your evidence. And I want to deal with something else before I do that. Were there any other things, any other records made on that tape of problems experienced by aircraft that evening? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Do you remember anything? MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL They would try and call and/or send a fax, not a fax a telex. DR KLATZOW Correct, to you? MR NADEL To operations yes. DR KLATZOW Yes. And you would be aware of that? MR NADEL I should be aware of it yes. DR KLATZOW Were you aware of anything else that evening? MR NADEL Yes there was an aircraft on the ground in Sol Island. DR KLATZOW What was wrong with it? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Yes. Was that on the ZUR tape? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Did they contact you? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And you would have been aware of both? MR NADEL I would believe so yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL It appears that could have happened. DR KLATZOW You have furthermore told us that everybody is lying but you. Gavin Dick is lying and Mr Du Toit is lying and that you are the only person at ZUR that night who is telling the truth? MR NADEL The issues about the standing orders? DR KLATZOW No, the issue is about whether there was a tape recording that night. And to cap it all, Mr Nadel, the vital tape recording that covers that specific period of time inexplicably finds its way out of ZUR, never to see the light of day again. And you wonder why there is rumour and speculation. You wonder why it is? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW I want to put it to you Mr Nadel that your versions are so inherently improbable that they should be rejected. And I want to put it to you that your fencing over the years with people who genuinely wanted to find out. The referral to Mr X, your demand that people not take down a statement when ostensibly your reason was to prevent yourself from being misquoted. And you then did the very thing that would ensure that you were misquoted. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW Mr Southwood put a question to you and you were presumably under oath then? MR NADEL Yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I believe that I said no, that there was no. DR KLATZOW No. Let me read it to you again. Southwood puts the following proposition to you. He says, MR NADEL I believe somewhere in the documentation I said there is no standing order. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Then I would like to read it yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Thank you. DR KLATZOW During the lunch period. Would this be a convenient place to adjourn Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON DR KLATZOW MR NADEL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nadel you are reminded you are still under oath. MR NADEL Thank you. DR KLATZOW Would you like to comment about what you found? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW And in fact during the hearing, I want to put it to you that when a question was posed to you by Mr Southwood relating to those standing orders your answer was a tacit acceptance of their existence. Why did you not tell the enquiry at the time that there were no standing order and that Dick and Du Toit were lying? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I would still like to say that the standing orders that were on file in ZUR are the standing orders that you have a copy of. If I failed to do it then I do not understand why. DR KLATZOW We know that there is a history of incriminating tapes going missing in this country. The only inference that can be drawn from this is that there was something untoward on that tape, that there was a discussion with ZUR which was in some way highly incriminating towards either Armscor or the aircraft handlers, that is South African Airways, that you were aware of that information and that you are part of a massive conspiracy and SAA to cover that up. MR NADEL I was never privy to sensitive information if something did happen, ever heard about, so as far as me changing my story I must be very honest and say that what I have said today is to the best of my knowledge what I know. DR KLATZOW Incidentally, there have been persistent statements made by crew members who are too frightened to make it under oath and to put their names to the statements but who have spoken to me, all of whom who have claimed that that tape was in existence, that the tape was listened to and that the tape was listened to by ZUR staff who knew the contents of that tape and that it was spoken about until they were upbraided by a senior official and they have never spoken of it again. Do you deny that that happened? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW But you are not an expert, Colonel Jansen who did it is an expert. MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Correct. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL That is correct. DR KLATZOW Why is that not on the CVR? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Well could you advance an explanation? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL 295. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Now if that occupies the last half hour of the existence of that aircraft, why was that or part of that conversation not on the cockpit voice recorder? Can you suggest any explanation? MR NADEL No I cannot. DR KLATZOW Other than that the cockpit voice recorder occurred some time before that? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL No. DR KLATZOW Can you fault the explanation that I have given you? MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL If you maybe put it in simpler terms I could answer it. DR KLATZOW Two radio transmissions, two tape recorders are taping the same period of time. Surely they should contain the same information? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON For my own understanding, Dr Klatzow, now what is a, can you give me which of these two, what are these two conversations? One is on what and one is on what? DR KLATZOW Right. CHAIRPERSON Just for a lay person. DR KLATZOW CHAIRPERSON Where is that now? On the plane. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL I apologise. DR KLATZOW Now do you agree with that? MR NADEL I understand yes. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL Absolutely. DR KLATZOW There is no other explanation is there Mr Nadel? MR NADEL No, I agree with that. DR KLATZOW Now, if that fire occurred earlier, you would have expected Uys to contact you? MR NADEL Possibly, but if there were no communications. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW No, that is not correct Mr Nadel. There are three tapes that concern us. There is the tape which recorded the take-off from Taipei which came to an end, either shortly after you had come on duty or just before you had come on duty. There is a second tape which is the one that went missing and there is a third tape which records the events on the following day. MR NADEL Okay I understand. DR KLATZOW It is the one in the middle that has gone missing. MR NADEL I understand. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON DR KLATZOW Thank you Mr Chairman. I have in fact reached the end of my questions. Thank you very much. MR NADEL Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MS TERREBLANCHE I would just like to ask one or two. To the best of your recollection, can you remember even though you say that it was quite unique for Jan Smuts to have a ZUR facility and were there any other such facilities in South Africa. For instance at the military? MR NADEL MS TERREBLANCHE I understand that today there is a Denel Control Tower at the airport? MR NADEL MS TERREBLANCHE MR NADEL MS TERREBLANCHE But were you aware of being in communication with any other nearby control tower? MR NADEL And I am also convinced there, if there was a problem, the aircraft would have communicated to an air traffic control centre saying we do have a problem. MS TERREBLANCHE But would they have communicated with another one? MR NADEL With another air traffic control centre? MS TERREBLANCHE MR NADEL MS TERREBLANCHE But apart from that, if they had called somebody else when they were in trouble, would you have expected that other tower or radio station or whatever it was to call you? MR NADEL MS TERREBLANCHE Then I just want to have one last question. A Mr Van Der Veer, when you had a problem earlier that day with a seized engine, did he ever come in earlier in the day, that you were aware of? MR NADEL No. MS TERREBLANCHE Dr Klatzow has one more. DR KLATZOW MR NADEL DR KLATZOW Can you see any obvious flaw or even subtle flaw in the argument? MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON I think what is sought to be obtained from you is, given those times and I mean Bombay, I do not consider that South African Airways flew to Bombay or to India or to any of these places and you were told earlier on about how one of the reasons the ZUR was being used was because you were flying around the bulge by which I understand you were not landing anywhere in Africa. MR NADEL Except Cape Verde Islands. CHAIRPERSON MR NADEL CHAIRPERSON Do you want to follow that up with the situation in Taipei? DR KLATZOW That is why Uys, who was a responsible pilot took the awful decision to allow himself to be overruled by somebody to fly on because he would never have done it off his own bat. MR NADEL I understand. CHAIRPERSON But the letters from the Friends of Victims of Helderberg and other material that has been sent to the Archbishop or to the investigative unit have been of a nature that we could not ignore and we have to thank people like you who have come, at what really is short notice and in your case I understand from abroad and one would hope that your assistance will be for having come and testified will assist us in getting to the bottom of this tragedy. So I thank you very much and for the moment I think you are excused and should you at any stage have anything that you can remember which you consider would be of value and assistance to the Commission, please do not hesitate to contact us. MR NADEL Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you members of the board. MS TERREBLANCHE MR NADEL Thank you. If there is anything I need to send through, do I fax it to the regular fax number or must I fax it to any particular number, to yourself? MS TERREBLANCHE Yes. To myself and to the regular fax number. MR NADEL Thank you. MS TERREBLANCHE We are closing down in two months. MR NADEL I hope it will be before then. MS TERREBLANCHE Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Ms Terreblanche are you calling any other witness? MS TERREBLANCHE WITNESS EXCUSED