special Mandela United Football Club Hearings 1997-11-24 JOHANNESBURG 1 NOMZAMO ZANIWE WINIFRED MADIKIZELA-MANDELA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56328&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/mandela/mufc1.htm CHAIRPERSON We welcome you all including media representatives and witnesses. I want to pay a special tribute to my colleagues, the Commissioners and Committee Members in this region who have worked so very hard to prepare for this hearing. And also our staff, to thank Patrick and all of the staff for working so assiduously. I pay a very warm tribute to my colleagues for all of their dedication. And we are grateful to the trustees of this place for making this beautiful venue available. The TRC is tautologically a Commission. It is not and we must stress this, the TRC and this hearing is not a Court of Law and so this hearing is not a trial. We operate under a Founding Act entitled The Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act. That Act mandates us to provide as, and I quote "complete a picture as possible of the nature, causes and extent of gross violations of human rights committed during the period from the 1st March 1960", that is to include the Sharpeville Massacre of 21st March 1960, "to the 10th May 1994", the inauguration of the first democratically elected President, i.e. Nelson Mandela. These gross violations must have emanated from the conflicts of the past. We are required to ascertain the fate and whereabouts of the victims of such violations, and this is done by one of three Committees of which the Commission is constituted, the Human Rights Violations Committee; we are mandated also to grant amnesty to persons making a full disclosure relating to acts committed with a political motive during this period of 34 years, and this is the work of our Amnesty Committee; and we are then expected to provide for reparations to be granted to victims of gross violations, and this is the work of our third committee, the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee. We are gathered to ascertain as much of the truth as we can establish about allegations from those who made statements to the Human Rights Violations Committee. These are statements from the families of alleged victims of gross violations of human rights. The Act enjoins that we should be victim friendly; therefore we are always driven by the statements of victims or survivors, and it is no different in this particular instance. Our focus is not a particular individual or group against whom allegations are being made. As always, we are here concerned primarily for the victims and survivors. I said there will not be a verdict because we are not a Court. We are here not in order to put anyone in the dock. We are not intent on pilloring, on ridiculing or humiliating anyone. Our objective is to find out the truth in order to assist in the process of healing our land, to promote reconciliation and to ensure that the awful things we hear about will not happen again. We seek the truth, not for the purpose of prosecution, we seek the truth for the healing of our land. On Friday when this hearing finishes, we will not provide you or anyone with a verdict. No, as with all of our other hearings, we will as a Commission subsequently be making a finding as to whether gross violations of human rights have in fact taken place, and the Act is quite clear about what it regards as gross violations - abduction, torture, killing or severe - and we have to seek to establish the identity of the victims. The enquiry will assist us in writing our final report, which is to be handed to President Mandela July 31st 1998, which will then be tabled in Parliament for later dissemination to the nation. We have to report inter alia on the antecedents, circumstances, factors and context of the gross violations as well as the perspectives of the victims and the motives and perspectives of those responsible for them. The Act makes it absolutely clear that self-incriminating evidence cannot be used in criminal or civil proceedings against the person giving the evidence, but when we draw up our final report, we the Commission will decide on whether we make formal recommendations that the cases of people against whom there is prima facie evidence and who did not apply for amnesty or refused amnesty should be referred to Attorneys General. Whether or not we make such recommendations our process does not impinge upon the criminal justice system of the country, which continues to operate in the normal way. We seek again, may I emphasise, the truth, not for purposes of prosecution, but for the purpose of seeking to re-integrate people into our society. The fact that we are conducting this enquiry and that South African and international media have chosen to give it unprecedented attention does not mean that the Commission recognises a moral equivalence between those who fought apartheid and those who opposed it. We made the distinction that most normal human beings would make for instance when someone who is about to be raped kills the person who is going to rape her, that is not the same as when someone morally kills another because they wanted to hijack their car. We will consider in our final report whether those fighting apartheid had moral justification, more moral justification than those opposing it. We are not speaking about a moral equivalence. The Act speaks about a legal equivalence, that is when a gross violation of human rights as defined in that law happens then it is a gross violation of human rights, no matter who committed them. If violations are found to have been committed in specific instances by people who opposed apartheid, that is not a judgement on the struggle or its morality. I want to finish by just reminding us what the preamble of the Act says - "The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1993 provides a historic bridge between the past of a deeply divided society, characterised by strife, conflict, untold suffering and injustice, and a future founded on the recognition of human rights, democracy and peaceful co-existence for all South Africans irrespective of colour, race, class, belief or sex. It is deemed necessary to establish the truth in relation to past events as well as the motives for and circumstances in which gross violations of human rights have occurred and to make the findings known in order to prevent a repetition of such acts in future." And the Constitution states that the pursuit of National Unity, the well-being of all South African citizens and peace require reconciliation between the people of South Africa and the reconstruction of society. And the Constitution states that there is a need for understanding but not for vengeance; a need for reparation, but not for retaliation; a need for ubuntu, but not for victimisation. And the Constitution states that in order to advance such reconciliation and reconstruction amnesty shall be granted in respect of acts, omissions and offences associated with political objectives committed in the course of the conflicts of the past. And the Constitution provides that Parliament shall under the Constitution adopt a law which determines a firm cut-off date and before the cut-off date envisaged in the Constitution provides for the mechanisms, criteria and procedures including tribunals, if any, through which amnesty shall be dealt with, and it is in the spirit of that preamble that we gather today and for the next four days. May I introduce my colleagues on the panel. On the extreme end is Faizel Randera, who is a Commissioner and member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and he is the Regional Convenor of our Region here in Gauteng. Hlengiwe Mkhize is a Commissioner and the Chairperson of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee. She is based here in Gauteng. Dumisa Ntsebeza is a Commissioner and Head of our Investigative Unit. He is based in Cape Town. Alex Boraine is the Deputy Chairperson of the Commission, and on my left is Yasmin Sooka. She is a Commissioner and Deputy Chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee, and is based here in Gauteng. Khoza Mgojo is a Commissioner, member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, and is based in our KwaZulu Natal/ Free State office in Durban. There are these contraptions for those of you who will be wanting to use them to follow the translation, Channel 2 is English, Channel 3 Zulu and Channel 4 Sotho. The first witness to testify is Thami Hlatswayo. Order, please. The witness is on my left and on that panel there, formidable, are lawyers who will be representing witnesses, and in front there is Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and her legal team. And over there are the TRC, Hanif and his team. Thami, which language are you going to speak? MR HLATSWAYO: I am going to speak in Zulu. CHAIRPERSON: MS SOOKA Thami, could you please state your full names for the record please? THAMI HLATSWAYO (sworn in) MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch. I just want to make clear to the legal representatives before we start that we will be making references to certain documents. Most of the documents we have already distributed to the legal representatives. Those that we have not, any additional documents that we do distribute - I beg your pardon, Arch, I just need to change my translation facilities. CHAIRPERSON MR VALLY Sorry, I was saying that we will refer to certain documentation. We will refer to the first Section 29 Inquiry, we will refer to the 2nd Section 29 enquiry, or any other documentation with which we have already handed out. If there are additional documents to be handed out, we will do so as we raise them or discuss them. Please note, we are not going to be handing out documents to everybody, we will just be handing out documents to those persons who - CHAIRPERSON Yes, Hanif. MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch. I want to make it clear that when we do give out additional documentation, we will not be giving out to all the legal teams, just those legal teams affected If there are legal teams who believe that they want a copy of it, we will make it available to them later on. Mr Hlatswayo, you made a statement to the Human Rights Violations Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission on the 9th September 1996, and I will be giving you a copy of that statement right now. Do you recognise that statement before you? You will notice the page with your address has been removed therefrom, but the rest of the statement, do you recognise it? MR HLATSWAYO: Come again, sir. MR VALLY Do you recognise the statement before you? Is that the statement that you made to the Human Rights Violations Committee on the 9th September 1996? Do you recognise the statement, Mr Hlatswayo? MR HLATSWAYO: I am still looking, sir. MR VALLY Will you look at the last page with your signature on it. Maybe that will help. MR HLATSWAYO Yes, I do, sir. CHAIRPERSON MR HLATSWAYO I will speak in English. CHAIRPERSON Right you are, that is your constitutional right. MR VALLY Were you formally a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY: Can you tell us from which date to which date? MR HLATSWAYO If I am not mistaken, I think I have joined the underground structure in 1984. MR VALLY Looking at your statement you refer to the death of a Mr Vincent Sefako. Do you confirm that? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY One of the issues I want to canvass early on is the date that you set out at as the date when Vincent Sefako was apparently killed. You say it was the 15th November 1987 and you say there was also the murder of an unnamed person, which in your statement took place on the 22nd November 1987. You say that on Page 7 of your submission. MR HLATSWAYO: Excuse me, sir, I am a bit confused. Must I go through my statement again? MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO I do, sir. MR VALLY On the left it says Vincent Sefako. Do you see that? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO I think you are talking about the two persons at the same time, because you said "he" and "she". MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO MR VALLY And then you give an address. MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO MR VALLY: I understand that, and this is a person who was unknown to you? MR HLATSWAYO MR VALLY: Thanks. We have got another statement from a Mrs Dipuo Mathibe, Catherine Dipuo Mathibe and the first question I will ask you there is this, that Ms Dipuo as well as family members of the person who was a neighbour by the name of Susan Maripa stated that the incident took place in October 1987. Is it possible that this incident regarding the person you called the unknown person took place in October 1987 rather than November 1987? MR HLATSWAYO I think it happened on November 22nd because I remember that is the day when I skipped the country, sir, on the November 22nd. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO But I think the incident happened on the same day which I skipped the country, sir. I made a mistake somewhere because I remember on the, I think it was the Sunday, when that guy Vincent Sefako was killed. Ja, it was Sunday and the lady was killed, it was during the week, if I am not mistaken, maybe Tuesday. MR VALLY So is it possible that the date for the murder of the person we refer to as Mrs Susan Maripa took place on the 29th October 1987? MR HLATSWAYO: MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO MR VALLY Was he also known as Vusile? MR HLATSWAYO: MR VALLY Are Vincent Sefako and Vusile one and the same person? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO Combat name, sir. MR VALLY So we have confirmed that all these names refer to the same person, Vincent Sefako, Vusile, Mshoshovi as well as Moshoshovo. MR HLATSWAYO: MR VALLY The name we will use is Mr Sefako for the purposes of this hearing. Was Mr Sefako your immediate Commander? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY You stated in your submission, page 8, paragraph 6, that at the time of his death the two of you were about to leave on an MK mission to Bophuthatswana where you were involved in, and you use the word, demobilising the local council police and the SAP in general. Is that correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY What did you mean by "demobilising"? MR HLATSWAYO Actually we were going to attack the Bophuthatswana Defence Force in case that we can pave, we can smooth the way for the incoming military supplement, sir. MR VALLY: MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Let us first begin with the death of Mr Vincent Sefako. You were not present when he was killed, is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO I was not, sir. MR VALLY Did you hear the same Sunday that he was killed about his death? MR HLATSWAYO Come again, sir. MR VALLY When did you hear about Mr Sefako's death? MR HLATSWAYO The very same day, sir. MR VALLY On page 13, paragraphs 2 and 3, you state that you met a Mr Tsepo who advised you that a man was hit by a car and that the occupants had taken his pistol. You continue and you say that you ran back to Mrs Mathibe's house to tell her about the incident, and outside the Mathibe's house you heard a woman telling people about the same incident. This woman was saying that a car hit the victim on the pavement. Is this what happened? MR HLATSWAYO That's what I've heard, sir. MR VALLY At this point did you know the person they were talking about was Vincent Sefako? MR HLATSWAYO I was definitely sure, sir. MR VALLY You go on and say that you asked Mrs Mathibe to go and get more details from this next-door neighbour. This you say on page 14 paragraph 4, is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY In the next paragraph of your statement, page 14(5), you say that on Monday, and was this the following day?, you were picked up from Mrs Mathibe's place by Peter Dlamini and another man and taken to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes it is correct, sir. MR VALLY In which section of Soweto was the house you were taken to? In which portion of Soweto was this house that you were taken to? MR HLATSWAYO Diepkloof. MR VALLY Is this Diepkloof Extension? MR HLATSWAYO No, the old house, the corner house, the old Mrs Mandela's house, the old one. I think it's Orlando West, ja. MR VALLY Sorry, do you want to say something further? MR HLATSWAYO No, I am fine. MR VALLY You stated, paragraph 6, page 14 "At the house there was a certain Percy Patterson, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter Zinzi." Were they all present during the subsequent conversation you had there? MR HLATSWAYO They were all present, sir. MR VALLY On paragraph 6 and 7, page 14, you state that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela asked you where you were going with Vincent Sefako and what you were going to do, and you told her about your mission. Was this the Bophuthatswana mission you referred to earlier? MR HLATSWAYO Yes it was, sir. MR VALLY Did you tell Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about the car accident you had been informed about? MR HLATSWAYO I did. MR VALLY What details did you give her? MR HLATSWAYO [Indistinct] MR VALLY I beg your pardon, I am asking you a question about the car accident that you had been informed about, what information did you give Mrs Madikizela-Mandela on the car accident? MR HLATSWAYO Oh, about what I've heard. MR VALLY And exactly what did you tell her? MR HLATSWAYO That when I was coming out from Mrs Dipuo's house, then when I crossed the tar road about to go home, then I meet a guy by the name of Sepo Mofeto, who stays next - not far away from home. So Sepo told me that he saw a person who was hit down by a car. Then that person comes up - from that person a pistol falls out and that same occupant of the car which hit the person came out and took the pistol. So then that's why I know that no, it must be the guy. Then I went inside, when I was about to enter the gate there was a lady who stays at next door. She was talking to another lady that the car just hit the person on the - she said in Sotho that ..... MR VALLY Will you just interpret that for us? MR HLATSWAYO She said the car just hit the .... [no recording] MR VALLY Thank you very much. You go on to say page 14, paragraph 7, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela asked you what you were going to use for your Bophuthatswana mission. You said you had two AK 47 magazines and a limpet mine. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela then told Peter to take you to your place and fetch all those weapons. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO That's correct. MR VALLY Who is this Peter you are referring to? MR HLATSWAYO Peter Dube. MR VALLY Peter Dube? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Is this a different person from Peter Dlamini? MR HLATSWAYO I only know him by Peter Dube, sir. MR VALLY Going on with your statement, you say that on your way to the house of Peter, sorry, on your way to the house to collect these weapons, Peter asked you who had told you about the incident and you told him it was Sepo, and Peter asked you to take him to Sepo's house, which you did but Sepo was not in. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO That's correct, sir. MR VALLY You then went to collect your weapons. Having collected your weapons, you were then dropped off at Miss Dipuo's house and told not to go anywhere and they would come back to fetch you at 8 p.m. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Correct, sir. MR VALLY You met at 8 p.m. at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house again where you were told by Percy Patterson that you should avenge the death of Vincent Sefako, is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Correct. MR VALLY You were told by Peter that you should go to Sepo's house and tell Sepo that Peter wanted to see him the following day, is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Also correct. MR VALLY You state that you went to Sepo's house and the place was locked and you were unable to leave a message, is that correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY You go on and state that Miss Mathibe had gone to see a neighbour and that the neighbour had seen the incident and had seen the person who had called the ambulance, but when the ambulance had arrived the victim was no longer lying on the ground. You say this at paragraph 10, page 15. Did Miss Mathibe tell you this? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Was this neighbour the unknown woman who was subsequently shot? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY The person I have referred to as Miss Susan Maripa. MR HLATSWAYO Yes. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO Your question again, sir. MR VALLY Okay. I refer you to paragraph 11, page 15, of your statement. Did Miss Mathibe tell you that she had been visited by Mrs Madikizela Mandela, accompanied by others, two days after the death of the person she refers to as Vusile and you know as Vincent? MR HLATSWAYO After the death of Susan? MR VALLY I suggest you look at your submission to the Truth Commission, look at page 15, paragraph 11. MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY I'll read it to you. In fact, let's start from page, from paragraph 10. "Dipuo did went to see a neighbour. She told Dipuo that she saw the incident and she called the ambulance but when the ambulance arrived the victim was no more there". And then we go on to paragraph 11. "Dipuo did mention this to Mrs Mandela, who said she wanted to see this woman. This woman knows too much. Peter was sent by Mrs Mandela to fetch the woman. The woman was not at home that day." Do you confirm this? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Who was sent by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to fetch the neighbour? MR HLATSWAYO Peter. MR VALLY If you look at the other statement I have given you by Mrs Mathibe, and if you look at page 7 paragraph 17. Do you see it? MR HLATSWAYO You said page? MR VALLY Page 7 paragraph 17. MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY I will read it quickly. "Winnie on her first visit met Susan outside my house and asked where if she knew of anybody who might have picked up a shoe at the scene of Vusile's killing. Susan referred them to me. She explained that she had called an ambulance. Winnie was unsettled by this. Peter too was suspicious. They argued that Susan was hiding something from them". Do you see that paragraph? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Can you tell us about the different versions given by you and Mrs Mathibe? Your version was that Peter had been sent to look for the neighbour, Mrs Maripa. MR HLATSWAYO Yes. MR VALLY And she was not there. [Tape 1 Side A ends] Mrs Mathibe's version was that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in fact talked to the neighbour, who advised her that she had called the ambulance. MR HLATSWAYO What I remember, I remember Peter being sent by .... MR VALLY I didn't hear that, you remember? MR HLATSWAYO Peter being sent by Mrs Mandela to go and fetch the neighbour. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO You said from 12? MR VALLY Yes. MR HLATSWAYO: "In my second meeting with Mrs Mandela and her unit she said to me she saw Vincent Sefako's body. Vincent had a bullet wound on her back and off his head and his forehead was like it was hit with a hammer. I did not ask where. And saw the body...." I can't see the other half of it here. MR VALLY That's fine. Can you just tell me what you mean when you refer to as "her unit"? MR HLATSWAYO MR VALLY Who specifically? MR HLATSWAYO It was Percy and Peter. MR VALLY You state that four days after the death, and this is at page 17, paragraph 16, four days after Vincent Sefako's death you were being taken by Peter to a house of a person called Jimbo Nkalani, where you had once been taken before by Mr Vincent Sefako before his death. You go on to state that "On the way to Jimbo's house Peter stopped the car in the open space from where you could see the house of Dipuo Mathibe". Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir, it is. MR VALLY Could you also see the house of her neighbour, Susan Maripa? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY You go on, paragraph 16, page 17, at this place you say Peter got out of the car and asked you to join him. Peter then asked you to go to this house and to ask the woman who saw the incident to say what she saw. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir, it is. MR VALLY You go on to state that you refused to go, saying that you would blow your cover. Peter then said that in the struggle there is nothing like that. Peter gave you a Makarov pistol and he removed an AK-47 from beneath the car seat. You both concealed your weapons and Peter put the gun against your back and forced you towards the house. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO It is, sir. MR VALLY At the house you were forced to open the gate by Peter, which you did. Was this Miss Mathibe's house or the neighbour's house? MR HLATSWAYO House No.2, the neighbour's house. MR VALLY This is Miss Maripa's house? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY You go on to say that in the yard you found a woman standing outside the kitchen door with a friend, and there was another man, whom you say was the father-in-law standing, at the door. Peter then asked the woman if she recognised him and she said, yes, he had been at her house in the morning if her memory serves her well, and Peter responded by saying, yes. Peter then asked her whether she knew anything about the incident and she said she was just trying to help by calling the ambulance but that she had put herself in trouble by doing so. She then said to you that she had put herself in hell. This is paragraphs 18, 19 and 20 on page 17 and 18. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO It is, sir. MR VALLY You then say you heard a shot and looked back and saw Peter metres away. You say you tried to run away. The woman had been shot in the chest. Several shots were then fired. You say you had no chance to reach Peter so you ran away. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Still correct, sir. MR VALLY You say you jumped over the fence into Miss Mathibe's yard and ran towards the gate, but saw the vehicle that you had come with Peter driving towards the gate. You then jumped into the next yard and this is how you got away. In your statement you say that it was a white Citi Golf, is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY In Mrs Mathibe's statement to the Commission she says the people who shot Susan Maripa got away in a blue Citi Golf, can you explain this discrepancy? MR HLATSWAYO No, actually the same Citi Golf, sir, which was trying to block me from getting away from the house No.2. It was the same City Golf which they collected me with, which was driven by a certain guy who speak Xhosa fluently. MR VALLY Do you know his name? MR HLATSWAYO Come again, sir? MR VALLY Do you know his name? MR HLATSWAYO No, sir, not at all, it was the first time to see that guy, sir. MR VALLY You say having got away you met up with Miss Mathibe, who also ran away during the shooting. Vincent Sefako's girlfriend and a certain person called "Uys". You say on the same day you left for Botswana. Is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO To Bophuthatswana, sir. MR VALLY Not Botswana, Bophuthatswana? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir, it was Bophuthatswana first, then Botswana. MR VALLY If you look at Miss Mathibe's statement, she says that she left her house when the Security Branch arrived there, not immediately after the death, and she later met up with Thami, which I assume is you, and crossed the border into - and she talks about Botswana in the first week of November. So that she says you didn't leave immediately after the shooting, you left a short while after that, is that correct? MR HLATSWAYO Actually, maybe it was after an hour, if I am not mistaken, after the incident, sir. MR VALLY Having left the country, you returned in 1992 where you spoke to a person at Eikenhof, a member of the South African Police, a Mr Visser, who advised you that Vincent Sefako was buried in a pauper's grave and no one claimed his body. Did Mr Visser tell you how Vincent Sefako had died? MR HLATSWAYO Not at all, sir. MR VALLY Did Mr Visser tell you that you were a suspect in the murder of Susan Maripa? MR HLATSWAYO Your question again, sir, please. MR VALLY Did Mr Visser ever tell you that you were a suspect in the murder of Susan Maripa? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, he did. MR VALLY You state that you were given a Makarov pistol but you did not fire the pistol. It was Peter who had shot Susan Maripa with an AK-47, is that correct? MR HLATSWAYO Still correct, sir. MR VALLY Miss Mathibe said that you had been given an unloaded Makarov, is this correct? MR HLATSWAYO I never had a chance to inspect the pistol, sir. MR VALLY What did you do with the Makarov pistol after the incident? MR HLATSWAYO I gave it over to, I handed it over to Oupa. MR VALLY Am I to understand that from what you say in your statement that Susan Maripa was killed because she witnessed a car accident and as a result phoned for an ambulance to assist the person who had been knocked down? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Can you tell us in your own words what role do you think Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in this whole affair? MR HLATSWAYO I think it was a cover-up, sir. MR VALLY What was she covering up? MR HLATSWAYO Those persons or person who did the killing. MR VALLY And why would she want to do that? MR HLATSWAYO Because there was a feud between Mshoshove and Mrs Mandela. MR VALLY When you say Mshoshove you are referring to Mr Sefako? MR HLATSWAYO That's it, sir. MR VALLY What was the basis of this feud? MR HLATSWAYO The feud, I was told by Mr Mshoshove that the feud started over when Mrs Mandela wanted to take over the command and also the thing that made the feud to be over it was fuelled by a pistol which was found at Mrs Madikizela's house, a Scorpion. MR VALLY There's two issues you are raising here as the basis for the feud. The one is the issue of a Scorpion pistol which you say was found in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. Why would the Scorpion pistol found in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house cause a feud between Mr Sefako and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR HLATSWAYO Okay. Mshoshove, my commander, was in love with that daughter of Mrs Mandela, and Mrs Mandela was not happy about the issue, so then that Scorpion belonged to Mshoshove. MR VALLY MR HLATSWAYO Because Mshoshove had spent the night there. MR VALLY Are you saying that the fact that the Scorpion was in the house was proof that he had spent the night in the house? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY And this is what caused the problem between him and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR HLATSWAYO It's the one that fuelled the most because there was also a tension, the tension was already there, but the pistol makes it worse. MR VALLY Let me understand from you the first aspect where you talk about, she wanted to take over command of his unit Can you explain to us exactly what you mean there? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. I was told by my commander that the unit which he was given outside the country from Zambia to command inside the country, there was a confusion between Mrs Mandela and Mshoshove. Mrs Mandela wanted to take over the unit from Mr Mshoshove and Mr Mshoshove did not allow that. Because what Mrs Mandela - I was told that she was only there to assist him when it comes to money and everything, not to command the unit, to assist only in money. MR VALLY Mrs Mathibe says that you were trained by Mr Sefako in the use of firearms and there was some tension between Mr Sefako and Peter over some R600 which had gone missing. Can you tell us about this? If you want to check on that that's on paragraphs 15 and 16 on pages 6 and 7 of Mrs Mathibe's statement which I have given you. She says there was tension between Peter and Mr Sefako because of the missing R600, do you know anything about that? MR HLATSWAYO I do, sir. MR VALLY Can you tell us about that? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. Peter was told to go and fetch the money, the money which was supposed to be used on operations, and Peter never turned back. MR VALLY So Peter himself would have a motive for shooting Mr Sefako, would that be correct? MR HLATSWAYO I think so, sir. MR VALLY Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has told us that she was not an MK commander and she had no more contact with MK guerillas other than finding safe houses and locations for them to store their weapons. On what basis do you say that you had the impression that Mrs Mandela wanted to take over control of this unit? MR HLATSWAYO The way I was told sir, that it was the question of money because she was the one who was, I don't know how can I express this now, she was in a position of power in money. MR VALLY At any stage if you want to speak in the vernacular please feel free to do so. The point is, and I quote what Mrs Mandela said, the question she was asked on page 72 of the first inquiry "Would you consider yourself at the time to have been an MK Commander?" Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answer was - "I was not an MK Commander". What's your response to that answer? MR HLATSWAYO Your question please again, sir? MR VALLY She was asked a question whether she was an MK commander and she said she was not an MK commander, what's your response to that? MR HLATSWAYO It's very difficult to answer the question because I don't know when the question was asked and by whom. MR VALLY Maybe I should make it clear what I meant there. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has appeared before us, in camera, and she has been asked a number of questions about a number of incidents. One of the questions she was asked by me was, did she consider herself to have been an MK commander and her answer was, "I was not an MK commander". I'd like your comment on her answer. MR HLATSWAYO As I have already stated, sir, that she was in a position of power because there were already two highly-trained MK guys were under his command. I will mention those two, Percy and Peter. MR VALLY Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked, I'm reading it from page 73 of the first inquiry, and this is asked by me "From your experience in dealing with MK cadres who came to the country who you provided shelter for, provided hiding places for, if you were to make a request to them would they comply with your request?" Mrs Madikizela-Mandela first answers - "What sort of request would they make?" Mr Semenya then interjects. I ask the question again. "Was there any instance in this time when you made a request of any of the MK cadres who came into the country?" And Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answers - "I had no authority to make any direct request to MK. They came with their orders from Lusaka and they were disciplined members of MK who took orders from Lusaka". My question is, did she have any authority over you? MR HLATSWAYO No, not over me. MR VALLY Did she have any authority over any MK unit within the country? MR HLATSWAYO I don't know. MR VALLY You say that she had two trained people under her control. MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Was this part of her unit? MR HLATSWAYO Those guys, Peter and Percy were - actually they were members of the Mshoshove Unit but they deserted Mshoshove. MR VALLY When you were asked to bring your weapons to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and if she had no authority over you, why did you do so? MR HLATSWAYO Because I know that I was already exposed there, sir, there was nothing to hide. MR VALLY I want to give you certain pages from the Section 29 inquiry, and this is from page 104, the first Section 29 inquiry where certain questions were asked. I want you to look right at the bottom of page 104. My question was "I want to now talk about the death of Susan Maripa. I need to know, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, if you knew Vincent or Vusile Sefako?" Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's answer was - "Who on earth are those people, Mr Chairman, I have never heard of them". Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know Vincent or Vusile Sefako? MR HLATSWAYO Very well, sir. MR VALLY I then asked "Do you know a Susan Maripa?" Mrs Madikizela-Mandela says - "I have never heard of that person". From your statement you have indicated an unknown woman. Did you know Susan Maripa at all? MR HLATSWAYO Facially. MR VALLY Do you know if Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mrs Susan Maripa? Yes, no, I don't know, any answer, that's fine, just answer that one, do you know if Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mrs Susan Maripa? MR HLATSWAYO It's very difficult for me, sir, because I don't know before or after the incident. MR VALLY Before she was killed. MR HLATSWAYO I doubt. MR VALLY I then go on, on page 105 that you have with you, I ask her "Do you know a Mr Thami Hlatswayo?" and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answers - "Goodness me, I don't know all these people, Mr Chairman. Who are they?" I then go on and say - "Well, Mr Thami Hlatswayo is supposed to have been an MK cadre..." and she later on says - "Sorry, no I was saying that ...." it's not clear, it's not typed out properly - ".....I would have known him". But what she essentially says is she did not know you. Did she know you? MR HLATSWAYO She know me. MR VALLY At the time that Susan Maripa was shot dead, are you aware of any of her family members who witnessed the shooting? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Can you tell us who? MR HLATSWAYO It was the old man. He is the owner of the house, if I am not mistaken. MR VALLY We have a statement from her daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, who ran into the house when the shots broke out and came back to find her mother lying in a pool of blood, are you aware of that? MR HLATSWAYO MR VALLY Well, we have a statement from the daughter saying that but I don't need to put that to you right now. Did you shoot Miss Susan Maripa at all? MR HLATSWAYO No. MR VALLY I have just now given you an extract from the inquest record relating to Susan Maripa. If you look under paragraph C where it says, "Cause or likely cause of death - multiple gunshot wounds, AK-47 rifle and Makarov pistol used". It seems to indicate that both weapons were used. Would you like to comment on that? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. MR VALLY Please tell us. MR HLATSWAYO Only one, it was a rifle, not a pistol, sir, who killed that lady, a rifle, an AK-47. MR VALLY If you look further down, just to the right of the stamp, it's very small print, paragraph D "Whether the death was brought about by any act or omission involving or amounting to an offence on the part of any person". And in handwriting it states - "Yes, Churchill Thami Hlatswayo and unknown black male". Do you note that? MR HLATSWAYO I see it, yes. MR VALLY In other words, the inquest court felt that you were one of the persons responsible for the death of Susan Maripa. Have you applied for amnesty in this regard? MR HLATSWAYO No, I saw there was no need, because as I've already said, sir, the thing which - I was forced to go there and I never used anything there, and I never even took out the pistol which was in my pocket, sir. MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Hlatswayo, I have no more questions. CHAIRPERSON Are there anyone to ask questions? Yes. Will you please identify yourself? MR SEMENYA The name Chairperson, it's Ishmail Semenya. I, together with Mr Mavundla, represent Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SEMENYA We have had an opportunity to request statements of various witnesses, and we did not obtain those statements, but we were given some translation of your story in terms which I would regard as very glib, it was not coherent. I've been trying to listen to your story today, I still can't find coherence, so you will bear with me when I put what might appear to be misplaced questions. Okay? MR HLATSWAYO Okay. MR SEMENYA So we know that you say when Susan Maripa was there you were present? MR HLATSWAYO Where sir? MR SEMENYA When Susan Maripa was killed you were present, is that factually correct or not? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, that's correct, sir. MR SEMENYA And you knew she was going to be killed that particular day, did you not? MR HLATSWAYO Not at all. MR SEMENYA You just had your firearm in your pocket? MR HLATSWAYO No, I was given a firearm to go and point out Mrs Maripa and ask her what did she knew about the killings. MR SEMENYA Oh, you are going to ask her what she knew by being given a firearm? MR HLATSWAYO That's it, sir. MR SEMENYA And you hadn't applied for amnesty as an accessory after the fact, because you did not report this, did you? MR HLATSWAYO Report it to whom, sir? MR SEMENYA Did you report this to the police? MR HLATSWAYO When? MR SEMENYA When it happened. MR HLATSWAYO It was, I think it was the 22nd of November, sir. MR SEMENYA Ja, my question is, did you report it to the police on the 22nd of November as you say when it happened? MR HLATSWAYO There was no way for me to go and report the incident, sir. MR SEMENYA What does that mean? MR HLATSWAYO First, I was running away from the guy who was driving a Citi Golf sir, the one who picked me up at home with Peter. MR SEMENYA Now before you left the country you must have gone past a number of police stations? MR HLATSWAYO Not at all, not at all. From Thlatle to Moletsuane there is no police station. Police station is only at Jabulani. It's very far from Thlatle. MR SEMENYA MR HLATSWAYO I think it was impossible for me to go to a police station, sir. MR SEMENYA When is it the first time you report your participation in the death of Susan Maripa, or your presence in the death of Susan Maripa? MR HLATSWAYO I think the first time I did it it was in Lusaka, in Lusaka. MR SEMENYA When the first time do you do that in South Africa? MR HLATSWAYO It was my first week on my return home. MR SEMENYA If I listen to you telling us you were not present when the car accident occurred killing Vincent, is that right? MR HLATSWAYO That's right, sir. MR SEMENYA You also don't know why Vincent Sefako was killed, do you? MR HLATSWAYO I don't know who but I know why. MR SEMENYA And why was he killed? MR HLATSWAYO As I have already mentioned that he told me that there was a feud between him and Mrs Mandela, and he stated clearly, that guy, you must know the way out of the country because very soon there is something which is going to happen to me or to you as my close companion. MR SEMENYA So we know you stating this version and we also know that Vincent is not alive to confirm it, right? MR HLATSWAYO Even if he was alive I was going to be proud to say what I am saying today. MR SEMENYA Ja, let alone your pride, I am asking you, we know that he is unable to confirm this statement, is that right? MR HLATSWAYO That's right. MR SEMENYA And we also know that according to you the person who killed Susan Maripa is not alive anymore, right? MR HLATSWAYO It's my first thing to me that you've MR SEMENYA I beg your pardon? MR HLATSWAYO It's new to me. MR SEMENYA Who killed Susan Maripa? MR HLATSWAYO Peter. MR SEMENYA Is he alive? MR HLATSWAYO I only met him, I think it was in Tanzania. MR SEMENYA Is Peter around, can we go talk to him? MR HLATSWAYO I don't know, sir. MR SEMENYA You have made this information available to the TRC in September, that there are probabilities Peter is alive. MR HLATSWAYO Ja, that's why I took one of the policemen to show Peter's house, because I was know that he must be around. MR SEMENYA Then you tell us there were instances when you had occasion to be at Mrs Mandela's house? MR HLATSWAYO That's correct. MR SEMENYA And the first time you went there, you went on your own accord, is that right? MR HLATSWAYO No I was told to be there. I will be picked up later that day at eight o'clock. I was told not to move, I must be there, I must be. MR SEMENYA Told by whom that you must be there? MR HLATSWAYO Personally Mrs Mandela. MR SEMENYA No, I am talking about your first contact now. How are you told you must be there first thing in the morning? MR HLATSWAYO MR SEMENYA So it is not Mrs Mandela who says you must come, it's Oupa who says Mrs Mandela says you must come? MR HLATSWAYO No, Oupa said we must wait there, Mrs Mandela will be coming there to meet us that house, No.3, which was our base. MR SEMENYA MR HLATSWAYO Can I speak Zulu? May I speak Zulu? CHAIRPERSON You can speak any language that you want. You can express yourself in any language that you wish. [The speaker's mike is not on.] MR HLATSWAYO After Vincent had been shot, Mrs Mandela told me personally that Vincent had been shot. After Vincent had died, because I didn't know as to where Vincent stayed, I went to Oupa, and Oupa was the one who had earlier brought Vincent to us, and we said Oupa, because you brought Vincent to us, it is up to you to go and tell his parents that he had been killed. And Oupa said he was going to go and tell Mrs Mandela. And the very same night Oupa went - (intervention) MR SEMENYA Who is Oupa now? MR HLATSWAYO Oupa Rantau He is alive. When Oupa came back he told us that Mrs Mandela had told him that we should wait for her on that particular day in the morning and he was going to come with the other boy who had got a shoe. The following morning we waited at house No.3 and a kombi, VW, arrived. It was a two-tone kombi, powder blue at the bottom and white at the top, and that kombi, I think there were four inside, it was Mrs Mandela sitting at the back, together with Peter. Mrs Mandela got out of the kombi, they got in through the front door, Dipuo opened the door for them. Dipuo is the owner of house No.3, and they got inside and got us there waiting for them, and Peter asked Dipuo as to what had happened. Dipuo said she didn't know anything but she referred to me and said they should ask me. And I told them that we were inside the house, we were conducting a meeting with the aim of conducting a certain mission in Bophuthatswana, but the mission was not accomplished because I was told that I should wait only 15 minutes after Mrs Mandela had gone out. And I told him that after 15 minutes he or she didn't show out. Later then I told Mrs Mandela that when I went out I came across Tsepo, who told me that as they approached the corner from a schoolmate's birthday party they saw a car hitting a person at the corner and that corner was not far from the house No.3. I went back after getting this message with the aim of telling them that I had got this news. And I heard the woman from next door, and said this car actually hit the person on the pavement, and I went into the house with that message and told Dipuo the very same message. When Winnie got wind of this news, asked as to where this woman is, she wanted to see this woman desperately. MR SEMENYA ....memorised version is your attempt to tell me when you met Mrs Mandela the first time? MR HLATSWAYO (not translated) MR SEMENYA All of this long story is intended to tell me when did you meet Mrs Mandela? MR HLATSWAYO That is what I am trying to explain as to how I met Mrs Mandela for the first time. MR SEMENYA Again it would seem Vincent died - must have had injuries consistent with the motor vehicle collision, right? MR HLATSWAYO Could you repeat your question? MR SEMENYA The version you have, Vincent must have had injuries which are consistent with a car collision because you say you were told he was hit by a car? MR HLATSWAYO MR SEMENYA After he was hit by a car, was he then shot at the same spot? MR HLATSWAYO I do not believe that it happened at the same spot. MR SEMENYA Somebody who has been hit by a car. Then you say he has a bullet wound. When was this bullet wound inflicted, immediately after the collision? MR HLATSWAYO As I have already explained, I was told by Winnie. MR SEMENYA ... Winnie, I don't understand. As far as I know this guy was hit by a car. Who would have shot him, because they took his firearm, this is your friend remember, they took his firearm and left the car. Why don't you confront him and say it doesn't make sense? MR HLATSWAYO Ask Winnie that. Is that what you are saying to me? MR SEMENYA (indistinct) MR HLATSWAYO It's very difficult to answer your question because I do not know what you are getting at. MR SEMENYA .....Mrs Mandela, I don't understand how that person could have had a bullet wound because, according to the story I know, after he was hit by a car a gun fell out of his pocket and they just took the gun and drove away. MR HLATSWAYO The first thing I am going to say to you is that it was very difficult at that time to ask such a question. The way that things happened even Mrs Mandela wasn't happy when she told me that, and it was going to be very difficult for me to answer that type of a question, or ask that type of a question. MR SEMENYA You're scared - (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could you just hold, please, there's a bit of a problem. Zulu is 3. Are you going to speak Zulu or Sotho? Thank you, you may continue. MR SEMENYA You were saying the reason you didn't ask is because you were scared? MR HLATSWAYO I wasn't scared, but the situation didn't warrant a person to be asking such questions. They were actually telling me and they didn't want to hear as to what I was saying. MR SEMENYA .... missing on the day. MR HLATSWAYO Could you repeat your question? MR SEMENYA .... the situation was not conducive for you to question her about that. What was wrong with the situation? MR HLATSWAYO The first thing, the way in which she asked the question was not really in a manner that a person would talk to me after somebody's death. MR HLATSWAYO MR HLATSWAYO Mrs Mandela told me that she went to identify him at the mortuary and ..... INTERPRETER Could the speaker please wait for the interpreters, we are battling to interpret here? Could the speaker wait for the witness to answer the question, please? MR VALLY There has been a request from the interpreters and I see Mr Semenya does not have his headphones on so he doesn't know that he is not giving them adequate opportunity to interpret his questions. CHAIRPERSON If you could sort of give the interpreters a chance. English and Zulu don't use the same number of words. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Do you have a headset there because then it might just help you. I thought you had one. Thank you. Zulu is channel 3. MR SEMENYA On what channel should I have it then? CHAIRPERSON Channel 3. MR SEMENYA I would understand his Zulu. If I listened in Zulu and English it might disturb my train of thought. I will try and pace my questions to be - (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Pace, pace them, yes. And I would also be grateful, I mean, you know, what you have is limited cross-examination, not like you would do in court. Thank you. MR SEMENYA And on that point, Chairperson, I will take the cue from the Chair as to whether I am going outside the time frame. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think basically you want maybe to contest facts and - thank you. MR SEMENYA Mr Hlatswayo, I was saying according to what I understand you and according to your story, Vincent was killed because of his tension, as you put it, with Mrs Mandela? MR HLATSWAYO That is true. MR SEMENYA Now this tension, it's a tension you hear from Moshoshove? MR HLATSWAYO That is correct. MR SEMENYA Did you go to any South African Police to say I know that Vincent was killed because of the tension he had with Mrs Mandela? MR HLATSWAYO No, I never went anywhere. MR SEMENYA You didn't do that? MR HLATSWAYO It's very difficult to answer your question because I don't know whether you are referring to before I left the country or after I came back. MR SEMENYA Before you left, did you go and say I know Vincent was killed because of his tension with Mrs Mandela? MR HLATSWAYO No, I couldn't have done that, I couldn't have gone to the police. MR SEMENYA MR HLATSWAYO These are just blue lies. She even knows my home. She knows where I stay, where I come from. MR SEMENYA So the sum total of what you are telling us that, according to Moshoshove, you would have had a tension [Tape 1 ends] MR HLATSWAYO What are you referring to? MR SEMENYA MR HLATSWAYO Yes, I would say that. MR SEMENYA Does that exclude any other basis why he would have been killed on that particular day? MR HLATSWAYO Your question is not clear because you are not telling me as to what the other reasons are. You have referred to Winnie as being the reason, but the other reasons you are not coming clear. MR SEMENYA It's just a guesswork on your part, right? MR HLATSWAYO No, I am not guessing, I am talking about things that happened and things that I saw. MR SEMENYA You were told something, is that right? MR HLATSWAYO That is correct, some of the things were told to me by Mshoshovu. MR SEMENYA Is that correct? MR HLATSWAYO Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA Is that he was hit by a motor vehicle because of his tension with Mrs Mandela, is that correct? MR HLATSWAYO No, that I would not exclude. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, we would suggest it would be sufficient at this point with this particular witness. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Any questions from the panel here. Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA MR HLATSWAYO If I remember very well, Dhlamini and Dube are one and the same person, it's Peter Dhlamini but he comes from Dube location. I think that's where the mistake is. MS SOOKA You talked about tension and a feud between Vincent Sefako and Mrs Mandela, would that possibly - is your view, or was it Vincent's view, that the feud could have been because people deserted to Mrs Mandela rather than staying with Vincent's unit? MR HLATSWAYO I don't get you, when you say deserted what do you mean, who deserted who? MS SOOKA You talked about two of the members of your unit deserting or leaving to be with Mrs Mandela under her command. MR HLATSWAYO No, they were not being (no recording on this section) .... to Winnie Mandela's camp. MS SOOKA Did that give rise to any tension? MR HLATSWAYO (no audible reply) CHAIRPERSON Faizel. DR RANDERA Thami, I just have three questions. The first one is that, did you ...... CHAIRPERSON I am asking Faizel Randera to put his question. DR RANDERA Thami, three brief questions. The first one is, did you know Mrs Mandela, had you spoken to her, had you met with her prior - (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Order please. If you don't want to keep order, please go and make the noise outside. Once I say Order! I don't want to keep repeating it, please. Thank you very much. DR RANDERA Okay, I am going to repeat my question. Did you know Mrs Madikizela Mandela prior to the killing of your commander or was that the first time you actually met with her and spoke to her? MR HLATSWAYO It was my first time, sir. DR RANDERA (microphone not on) MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. DR RANDERA We have been told that he was knocked down by a car, there's a possibility of him being shot in the head. Was there ever a funeral for him and did his family know what he died of? MR HLATSWAYO I was away by then, sir. I was - (intervention) DR RANDERA But you came back in 1992. You didn't go and see the family? MR HLATSWAYO I never knew the family, sir. DR RANDERA Okay, my last question is on what you said when you went to Lusaka. You said you reported the incident to somebody in Lusaka. MR HLATSWAYO Yes, sir. DR RANDERA Here was a commander of MK who had been killed in very strange circumstances. Was there an inquiry conducted by the ANC? Who did you report to? And did you ever receive any feedback? MR HLATSWAYO I reported the matter, I think it was my - three days after my arrival at Charleston in Zambia, then my first one - the first person to ask me about the incident it was, I forgot now, he was also a chief intelligence, I've forgotten the name but I will remember it very soon. The second one, it was Chris Hani. DR RANDERA Were you ever given any feedback by either Chris Hani or the Chief of Intelligence? MR HLATSWAYO Not at all, sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Alex Boraine. DR BORAINE I'd like to ask you if you know if there was ever an inquest into your commander's death or whether there was any cause of death reported, either before you left or since you've come back? MR HLATSWAYO That's what I want to (indistinct) to find out about, sir. DR BORAINE Oh, you came to the TRC to find that out? MR HLATSWAYO Definitely, sir. DR BORAINE Okay, and what did you find out? MR HLATSWAYO Actually nothing at all, sir. DR BORAINE So you don't know whether he was shot or whether he was killed in an accident or whether he was injured in an accident and then shot? MR HLATSWAYO What I am sure is that he was knocked down. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very - yes. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, if I may, may we request that if it is possible to obtain at least a post-mortem findings relating to Vincent. It would help whether or not his skull had a bullet wound, and if it didn't we would know the status of this evidence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Hanif, are you able to say anything about that? MR VALLY I will refer it to our Investigative Unit. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. We will try and do that. MR SEMENYA Secondly, Chairperson, we would request that the information relevant to the inquest docket of Susan Maripa indicates there was a Makarov. I am sure that file would indicate that they found spent cartridges of the Makarov, which would tell us whether the witness did fire or not fire during that occasion, and (recording disappears) that background. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Thank you. Hanif is there any follow-up that you want to put MR VALLY I have been advised that there is an inquest docket, Mr Semenya did ask me and I thought there wasn't one. I have also been advised that that's the only reference to a Makarov pistol in the inquest docket, the page that we have given Mr Semenya, but we will make the whole inquest docket available to him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you very much, Thami. You may stand down. MR HLATSWAYO EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We call Phumlile Dlamini. The Deputy Chairperson of the Commission suggests that it might be compassionate to allow those who wish to do so to take off their jackets. There are some already of course who didn't wait until this permission was given. Good morning. Which language will you be speaking? MS DLAMINI Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Thank you for coming. And Yasmin Sooka will be the Commissioner who will swear you in. PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI (sworn in) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Hanif? MR VALLY Thank you, Arch. Miss Dlamini we have a copy of your statement which was given to the various attorneys, so I won't go into great detail with you. In your statement you said that your brother, Thole Dlamini, joined the Mandela United Football Club shortly after it was set up, is this correct? MS DLAMINI That is correct. MR VALLY You say that the club played football and Winnie Mandela attended a number of matches where she also spoke to club members. MS DLAMINI Please repeat your question. MR VALLY You say that Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela attended a number of matches where she also spoke to club members? MS DLAMINI That is correct. MR VALLY Can you tell us about your relationship with "Shakes"? Firstly, will you tell us did you have a relationship with a person called "Shakes"? MS DLAMINI Yes, there was a relationship. MR VALLY What was his real name? MS DLAMINI Johannes Tau. MR VALLY Was there any confrontation with Mrs Madikizela- Mandela about your relationship with Mr Tau? MS DLAMINI I did not understand your question. MR VALLY I will repeat the question. Was there any confrontation with Mrs Madikizela Mandela in connection with your relationship with Mr Tau? MS DLAMINI Yes, there was. MR VALLY Can you explain to us in your own words what this confrontation was about? MS DLAMINI I was in love with "Shakes" and there was somebody who told Winnie Mandela that I was in love with Shakes, and Shakes came to my house with Winnie and told me that they were there with regards to my matter. Winnie (indistinct) she wanted your brother and that's when I understood. CHAIRPERSON Is there any help you wonderful technicians can give maybe to increase the volume a little bit, please. Thank you very much. MS DLAMINI I cannot speak louder. CHAIRPERSON MR VALLY Let me just rephrase the question. You state in your statement to us that Shakes had told you about a certain incident that had taken place between him and Mrs Madikizela Mandela Can you very briefly relate this to us? MS DLAMINI Shakes told me that, as he was Winnie Mandela's driver, Winnie would sleep in another room and Shakes in the dining room, and she will leave the bedroom, the other room to him, and go to him where he will be sleeping. MR VALLY You say also in your statement that there was a confrontation between yourself, and I am talking about the first confrontation on this issue, between yourself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela discovered your relationship with Shakes. Can you please tell us about this? MS DLAMINI Somebody who was a member of the football club told her that Shakes and myself have an affair or were in love. MR VALLY And what happened after this? MS DLAMINI After that Winnie came to my house with Shakes as if they were coming to look for Thole and I told them that Thole was not in, he was at a hall and then Shakes - and ask to be escorted to where Thole was, that hall. And when we got there we got inside in the microbus and said to Shakes, Shakes drive the car and take it home to the house that was burnt. And when we got there, we were standing outside, outside the premises and said to Shakes, Shakes leave the steering wheel and go to the passenger seat. And Shakes asked - and asked as to what Shakes was with me, or what was existing between the two of us and asked me as well if there was any relationship. I told her that he's the only person I know, and she said don't make me a fool because I've already heard and I know that you are in love and I said no, we are not in love. And she asked me as to who my boyfriend was and I told her about Sipho from Meadowlands. MR VALLY What happened thereafter? MS DLAMINI After that Winnie herself started assaulting me with claps and fists all around my body, and I was three months pregnant at the time by Shakes. MR VALLY Did you have any subsequent confrontation with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MS DLAMINI Yes, thereafter she came to my place looking for me, that is herself personally, together with the members of the football club, and these members came to call me but my mother said I was not in and they went to fetch Flora Ikaneng at Mhlongo's place, it's a shebeen, and they said - she said they must go to my sister's place because she was looking for me and my mother had told her that I wasn't there. We went around looking for Shakes but we couldn't get hold of Shakes. We even went to his friend's place, but we couldn't get hold of him, and we proceeded to Diepkloof, that is Winnie Mandela's house. And when we got to Winnie's house, Winnie personally said to me, "Guys, see what you are going to do with this one because she doesn't want to speak the truth", referring to the Football Club members. They started assaulting me and kicking me in accordance with Winnie's instructions and I think this continued for about five hours. And Zinzi came and asked as to what was happening and she pleaded with them to stop assaulting me, and they said, "Mother, or Mummy, said we should assault her", because that's how they referred to her. And Zinzi went to her mother to try and find out as to why these guys were assaulting me, and Zinzi said I should go into the bathroom to clean myself up. I was bleeding through my nose as well as my mouth. And Jerry Richardson came in together with Morgan and she said ,"Jerry and Morgan take this woman to her place," and they duly took me to my place. When we got to my place my mother and I went to Dudu Xele. My mother wanted to get some advice from Dudu Xele as to what to do under the circumstances. We were sent to Mrs Sisulu. When we got to Mrs Sisulu's place we found that the gates were locked because it was at night. We went there the following morning and Mrs Sisulu was not available. She had gone to Cape Town and when we came back we told Dudu that Mrs Sisulu was not available as she was in Cape Town. MR VALLY Can you tell us when this happened? MS DLAMINI After that, around July, I went to book at the Bara Hospital and I did not tell the doctors as well that I was assaulted and I got injured as I was pregnant. I was scared to release this kind of information. MR VALLY Can you give us an idea of when, in terms of the date, which year, which month this happened? MS DLAMINI The year was 1988. When I went to the hospital it was around July, and when I was assaulted it was just after Winnie Mandela's house got burnt, the very same month that Winnie Mandela's house was set alight. I don't remember quite well as to which month it was, but around that time. MR VALLY Your brother who you refer to as Thole, was he a member of Mandela United Football Club? MS DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR VALLY Do you remember in 1988 when he was arrested, can you give us some details on this incident? MS DLAMINI The police came on Wednesday at our house, in the evening, to tell us that Thole was arrested and they requested his clothes. And my mother asked as to why he was arrested and they said no, there is nothing bad that we have arrested him for, we just want him to give us an explanation about Winnie Mandela's house. And my mother asked as to which court he was going to. They answered back and said the Protea Court and we gave them the clothes. MR VALLY Are you aware of whether he was at Protea police station and detained there or whether he actually appeared at Protea court? MS DLAMINI The police came and told us that he was at Protea and he will be going to Protea court as well. MR VALLY Are you aware of in connection with which matter this was that he would be appearing in court for? MS DLAMINI No, I wasn't aware, I don't know. MR VALLY How long after the police took him from your house was your brother released? MS DLAMINI He was arrested on Wednesday, and Thursday he was released. Friday he was at home and Saturday he passed away. MR VALLY Do you know the circumstances of his death? MS DLAMINI On Friday night we were with Thole at home, talking. My mother was not at home and Thole said to me, my sister, you see as you are expectant please bring a baby boy, I don't want a girl here at home. If you are carrying a baby girl, we will just desert you and take you to your boyfriend's house, and we were joking over the issue. On Saturday morning Thole came and we were happy. And in the afternoon he said he was going to a night vigil in Pimville and I asked which night vigil was it, because you know my mother is not around, and why are you going to the night vigil. And he said, no, it's one comrade's night vigil that I am going to attend. And I said, please Thole take care of yourself and be careful. It was around nine at night and we heard a gunshot because we were not too far away where Thole died. It was myself and Sisi, my cousin. And we were so scared after hearing that gunshot because the way it was going on and on it was like it was shots just around the corner. After a few minutes we heard knocks at the door, and it was Thole's friends, and they said, we do not know what we shall say to you, and I said, what's happening, what's wrong, and they said, Thole is late. And I asked who? They said, it is Sizwe. I said, Sizwe? They said, it is Sizwe, and they said they saw Sizwe and Buthile, who is another member of the Football Club there at Brandfort. And I left the house and ran to the scene of crime and I realised and discovered that Thole was there and he was shot in the head, and there was a hole and the whole side from his left eye was open throughout to the back. And I left the scene and went back home to get a blanket or something to cover the body. My mother was not at home and I did not know what to do. I took my own blanket and went to the scene to cover the body. And Dudu came and said, Girl, we cannot leave the corpse lying there in the street, where is your mother? I told her that my mother is in Mfulu at my grandmother's place. CHAIRPERSON ... to have a real record of what is happening, but I think that I allow you to do whatever you are doing if you show sensitivity, and I just think, I mean, that it wasn't particularly so now. MR SOLLER Mr Chairperson, Mr Miller and myself act on behalf of Mrs Dlamini. May she stand down for five minutes. She is clearly emotional, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Let me just ask her because she - do you need a break, a short break, or you think you will continue? MS DLAMINI I will try to carry on and continue. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VALLY Miss Dlamini, you mention that you were told that two people, you mentioned Sizwe and I think it was, I didn't catch the second name clearly, do you know the full names of the persons that you were told were responsible for shooting your brother? MS DLAMINI I know Sizwe Sithole and Butike, I just know that he is Butike, I don't know his full name and the surname. MR VALLY Can you tell us more about Sizwe Sithole, who he is? MS DLAMINI Sizwe resides in the next street from where our house is and they were going to the same school with Thole until they joined the Football Club together, and they were always together with Thole. MR VALLY Is this the same Mr Sithole who died in detention in John Vorster Square in January 1990? MS DLAMINI Yes, it is him. MR VALLY Who did you get the information from as to who was responsible for Thole's death? MS DLAMINI It was Jabu Sithole and Ratodi..... MR VALLY You say Ratodi, is this Leratodi Ikaneng? MS DLAMINI Leratodi Ikaneng. MR VALLY Was the fact of your brother's death reported to the police? MS DLAMINI Yes, my cousin went to report to the police station in Orlando. MR VALLY Was anyone subsequently charged for your brother's death? MS DLAMINI MR VALLY Are you aware of any inquest held into your brother's death? MS DLAMINI Yes, there was, although we were not informed, because the Protea police came to tell us that Butile was also arrested because he came to fetch us from home to show us Sizwe in White City where he went to. MR VALLY Are you aware whether Mr Leratodi Ikaneng ever reported this matter to the police as well as your cousin? MS DLAMINI Can you please repeat your question? MR VALLY You advise us that the murder of your brother, Thole, was reported to the police by your cousin. My question is, are you aware of whether Mr Leratodi Ikaneng himself also reported this death to the police? MS DLAMINI I am not quite sure about that. I just heard him saying that he was from the police station. MR VALLY Did he tell you what he was doing at the police station? MS DLAMINI He did say that he went to the police station because Thole died in his presence to give a statement. MR VALLY Did you have any other contact with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela after your brother was killed? MS DLAMINI No. MR VALLY Can you advise us whether Thole was also known as Tony? MS DLAMINI They were calling him Thole. I don't know his other name that they were using. MR VALLY What was the view of the community in your area regarding the Mandela United Football Club? MS DLAMINI People were scared to air their views about the Football Club, that they were not quite comfortable about it. MR VALLY Why was this? MS DLAMINI Because they loved Winnie and they trusted Winnie as a mother who was there for the community. MR VALLY Was this your view as well? MS DLAMINI Yes, that was my view as well, but after all that, after I was assaulted and my brother's death, I changed my views completely. I did not even want to hear about the fact that she was referred to as the "mother of the nation". MR VALLY My final question relates to what you said in the statement that you believe that the assault had an effect on your child who was born later. Can you tell us a bit about this, please? MS DLAMINI I do believe that. My child is not doing well at school. He has been psychologically traumatised and he takes time to understand and reply. Even when I talk to him, he delays. He can understand what I am saying but he will take time to act. For an example, when I will ask him to take out a glass of water from the cupboard he will insist and ask as to where is the glass whilst he is looking at it. Even when he plays with other children, he exhibits peculiar signs in behaviour. MR VALLY My final question. How strong was the friendship between Leratodi Ikaneng and your brother Thole? MS DLAMINI He was our neighbour, next-door neighbour. They were always together. Even at the time when he died, they were together. MR VALLY Thank you, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Would you - do you have any questions? Please identify yourself and then put the questions to the witness. MR SOLLER Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I appear together with Mr Miller. My name is Peter Soller. May I put the questions to the witness? CHAIRPERSON Please do, yes. MR SOLLER Mrs Dlamini, you have told the Commission there were two separate assaults, is that correct? MS DLAMINI That is true. MR SOLLER Were you pregnant when you were assaulted the first time? MS DLAMINI Yes, I was pregnant. MR SOLLER Were you visibly pregnant? MS DLAMINI No, I was not. MR SOLLER Can you estimate the duration of the first assault. Was it brief or did it take an hour or two hours? MS DLAMINI You mean at the time when Winnie was assaulting me herself or you are referring to the Football Club members? MR SOLLER Let me refer first to the first assault. MS DLAMINI It was not a long time when I was assaulted. I think it was ten minutes when they were assaulting me inside the vehicle, inside the kombi outside her premises. MR SOLLER Was Mrs Mandela present when you were assaulted on the first occasion? MS DLAMINI It was Winnie herself who was assaulting me the first time. MR SOLLER And who else was present on that occasion? MS DLAMINI It was myself, Winnie Mandela and Shakes, the three of us in the car. MR SOLLER Did Shakes assault you as well? MS DLAMINI No. MR SOLLER Can I make the deduction then that it was only Mrs Mandela who assaulted you on the first occasion? MS DLAMINI Yes. MR SOLLER Now how long afterwards did the second assault take place? Was it a week, or was it a month? MS DLAMINI It was a week because they fetched me on Monday to assault me in the kombi. The second time when Shakes ran away it was Wednesday or Thursday, during the week. MR SOLLER Now the second assault was, I think you've indicated to the Commission that that was also undertaken by Mrs Mandela, is that correct? MS DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SOLLER And you say that the duration of that assault was five hours? MS DLAMINI Yes. MR SOLLER Could you briefly describe to the Commission how you were assaulted? Was your head hit, for example? MS DLAMINI I was assaulted around the body on the face and they were kicking me on the body, but they never injured me on the head. MR SOLLER When you say, Mrs Dlamini, "they", who do you mean by "they"? MS DLAMINI I mean the boys who were residing there, because she told them to assault me. MR SOLLER Did she personally lay a finger on you? MS DLAMINI Yes, she did the first time before we arrived at the house in Diepkloof. MR SOLLER You mean before you actually got to the five-hour assault you were assaulted on the way to the house. Is that what you are saying? MS DLAMINI Yes, that's what I am saying. MR SOLLER And that that assault took place by Mrs Mandela? MS DLAMINI Yes, that is true. MR SOLLER Are you saying as a result of that extended assault, that's the five-hour assault, plus the first assault, your baby was born in an unhealthy condition? MS DLAMINI Yes, the baby was affected when I was assaulted the second time for as long as five hours. That is why he is even affected to date. MR SOLLER Do you consider that the people who assaulted you knew that you were pregnant when this took place? MS DLAMINI I had my maternity dress on, blue and white in colour. There was no one who could claim I wasn't pregnant or I wasn't visible, not that I was pregnant. MR SOLLER Mrs Dlamini, Mr Miller wants to ask you something about your child. Mr Commissioner, may Mr Miller deal with that issue? CHAIRPERSON I was just wondering whether, because much of this has in fact already been canvassed, if you had specific points that had not been covered, then maybe you could put them to your client. I am just a little concerned that - the trouble is that we were not aware that she was represented because then Hanif would not have lead her, you would have done so. [Tape Side A ends] But I think he has covered most of the ground that you have re-covered and I just want to know whether there are other aspects which have not in fact been covered which you would canvass. MR SOLLER Mr Chairperson, may Mr Miller deal with that reply to your answer, please. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon? MR SOLLER May my learned colleague, Mr Miller, deal with that question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, all right. MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON Can you identify yourself first, please. MR MILLER MS DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR MILLER And why is it that the others assaulted you? MS DLAMINI Winnie instructed them to do whatever they wished to. MR MILLER Now let's be a little bit careful here. Did you hear Mrs Madikizela-Mandela speaking, uttering these words? MS DLAMINI Yes, I heard that. MR MILLER Thank you. There is just one other aspect I would like to deal with, and that is your child. Your child was born when? MS DLAMINI Was born on the 31st December 1988. MR MILLER So in other words your child is now just short of nine years old, is that correct? MS DLAMINI Yes. He will be nine full years in December. MR MILLER The 31st of December. Now does your child attend school? MS DLAMINI Yes, he attends school. MR MILLER What standard is he in? MS DLAMINI He is in grade two. MR MILLER Can you comment at all on his academic progress? Do you understand the question? Can you tell the Commission how he is progressing at school? MS DLAMINI I am not satisfied about his performance at school because he is a slow learner in class and the teacher called me and told me this and told me how much of a slow learner my child is and his handwriting is not showing that he is in grade two. MR MILLER And this is the first time that he is doing grade two? MS DLAMINI No, it's his second year in grade two. MR MILLER Did he fail the first time? MS DLAMINI He passed but his teacher requested that he repeats the standard because he was not performing very well, since he is a slow learner. MR MILLER And otherwise is he able to cope with the every day aspects of life, like if you ask him to pour you a glass of water or do something? MR NTSEBEZA With respect, Mr Miller, do you think you can take this point any further? MR MILLER I will leave that there, Mr Chairman. MR NTSEBEZA Thank you. MR MILLER Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON It seems lawyers understand lawyers. I was speaking theological English. - (general laughter). Is there any other.... MR CROSS My surname is (...indistinct) A J. I represent Mr Richardson. Madam when you describe boys were responsible for your assault, do you know who they were? Do you know their identities? MS DLAMINI I know some of them, but some I know their names and some I don't know their names. I just know them from seeing them. MR CROSS Can you give us the names that you do know? MS DLAMINI Hansie Matewu, that I know. The others I do not know and others had a Natal accent as they spoke their Zulu. MR CROSS Are those the only ones that you can remember? MS DLAMINI Yes. MR CROSS After the five hours you say that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's daughter, Zinzi, intervened on your behalf, is that correct? MS DLAMINI That is true. MR CROSS Now you say that Jerry and Morgan, John Morgan, were responsible for taking you home, did they participate in the assault? MS DLAMINI No, they did not even touch me. They took me back home. MR CROSS No further questions, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA Ma'am, I understand from you that the reason according to your story you were assaulted was because of your relationship with Shakes. MS DLAMINI That is correct. MR SEMENYA And Shakes had said to you that he had a relationship with Mrs Mandela. MS DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA What is of profound difficulty, at least in my mind, is even today we don't have a statement of Shakes that says that, can you explain it? MS DLAMINI I don't know where Shakes stays. MR SEMENYA (...indistinct) has never managed to get Shakes to confirm this relationship that caused you the hardship? MS DLAMINI I wouldn't know. MR SEMENYA In 1997, November, have you ever made a statement to the police about your assault? MS DLAMINI No, I did not. MR SEMENYA Even up to the 24th of November 1997 you have never went to the police to report and complain about the assault? MS DLAMINI No, I was scared. MR SEMENYA Why were you afraid yesterday to go to the police and report that you were assaulted by Mrs Mandela? MS DLAMINI I was scared because our house was going to be burnt and we weren't going to have a place to stay. MR SEMENYA We know that you had lawyers, when you were speaking to them why didn't you tell them you are desirous of laying an assault complaint against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MS DLAMINI I am just going to tell them. MR SOLLER Mr Commissioner, can we both place on record that this lady received legal representation for the first time last Friday, that's the previous Friday. CHAIRPERSON Just switch on your microphone, please. MR SOLLER Is it on now, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON There should be a red light. MR SOLLER But there isn't a red light but I believe it is on. INTERPRETER Yes, it is on. MR SOLLER Mr Chairman, this lady was only advised on Friday, this past weekend, that she would be receiving legal advice. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. I want to find out where you are leading because again, you see, I am seeking to remind you that your brief is to question matters of fact and I mean you are allowed to put your client's point of view and let us, as the Commission, then decide which of the versions is the one that is going to be - because what you are doing and I don't blame you, this is your training, but this is not - it isn't in fact a court of law. MR SEMENYA I take the admonishment, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, no, no, no, no, it's just gentle advice. MR SEMENYA My instructions, Chairperson, are that the witness is narrating a figment of imagination. Now to lend credence to those instructions we need to point out that she did not act consistent with her complaint throughout the period of five odd years. But I will not take that aspect any further. MS DLAMINI This is not a figment of my imagination. Winnie Mandela knows the inside of my house because that is where she took me and she knows deep down inside of her that I am not telling any lies. Why would I tell lies about her? Lindiwe was there, if only Lindiwe was still alive I think she would be saying the same thing that I am saying today. MR SEMENYA You see Zinzi is present in the hearing. Do you see that Zinzi is present in the hearing? MS DLAMINI Yes, I can see her. MR SEMENYA She denies that she ever intervened in an assault that was taking place that you mention. MS DLAMINI She denies it She knows it very well that she did come, she intervened. I don't know why she is denying it because she did - she even said I should go wash my face. MR SEMENYA Ma'am, did you suffer from a heart condition? MS DLAMINI Yes, I do suffer from a heart condition. MR SEMENYA Do we know medically whether it explains the difficulties your child is having? MR SOLLER With respect, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention) MS DLAMINI No, that's not it. MR SOLLER Chairperson, this witness is not a medical expert, she can't possibly answer that question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think, Mr Semenya, as they say with respect if again, please if you can confine the questions, I mean you could say that this is a fact and the fact that you put is so and so and I contest that, that would help us, because again as the legal representative says we are treading in an area where she doesn't, I think, have the expertise. I don't have. MR SEMENYA With a greater respect, Chairperson, I think the objection was a little misplaced. I didn't ask the witness whether she has the medical acumen to determine the condition of the child. I was saying through the witness that with the expense of the resources the TRC has have we since established a connection that explains the condition. She would say to me she doesn't know. MR NTSEBEZA Mr Semenya, that was not the question, with respect, and I think, if you have any basis on which you can say that this witness's heart condition is responsible for the conditions in her child, say so, and I would be very interested to know what basis you have for saying that. MR SEMENYA The only reason, Commissioner, I didn't put it that way is because I do not know, that is why I was asking, but let me take the questioning further. CHAIRPERSON When you are consulting it would be a good thing to switch it off because we might overhear you - (general laughter) MR SEMENYA In a forum such as this one, Chairperson, if we are overheard we are confident it would be consistent with our innocence. (laughter) Ma'am let me ask you, is it your contention that the clinical condition of your child arises out of the assault? MS DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA Why do you say that? MS DLAMINI Because I do realise as a mother that the child was somehow traumatised, either physically, and it affected his mental state. MR SEMENYA Okay. Now that we know you can explain it, can we talk about your brother. I understand that he was a member of the Football Club. MS DLAMINI That is correct. MR SEMENYA And he was even sent to school by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that right? MS DLAMINI When? MR SEMENYA Was your brother at school whilst a member of the football team? MS DLAMINI Could you repeat the question? MR SEMENYA Was your brother attending school while he was a member of the football team? MS DLAMINI Yes, he was. MR SEMENYA Have you got information to gainsay the fact that he was paid for, that schooling, by Mrs Mandela? MS DLAMINI Thole was paid for by the Welfare as well as my mother. MR SEMENYA Clearly you are upset by the death of your brother, is that fair to say? MS DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA Did you know that he was killed by Sizwe, is that right? MS DLAMINI That is correct. MR SEMENYA And you had known Sizwe's relationship to Zinzi, is that right? MS DLAMINI Yes, I knew. MR SEMENYA I want to suggest to you, Ma'am, with respect, that the reason you fabricate the assault is because of the death of your brother that was occasioned by Sizwe. MS DLAMINI I was assaulted, and my assault doesn't have anything to do with Thole's death. MR SEMENYA .... assaulted at the instruction of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela or in her presence? MS DLAMINI Mrs Mandela was present. I have absolutely no reason to come here and sit and just waffle. MR SEMENYA ....you mention this story. MS DLAMINI Who? MR SEMENYA Official structure. MS DLAMINI I have said that to the TRC. MR SEMENYA Is this the first time you tell an official structure about this assault? MS DLAMINI That is correct. MR SEMENYA Was it this year? MS DLAMINI Yes, this year. MR SEMENYA Who had approached you? MS DLAMINI (not translated) MR SEMENYA How did it come that you went to the TRC to tell the story? MS DLAMINI I was called. MR SEMENYA (indistinct). CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA Chairperson, let me apologise, Chairperson, for doing what mild advice told me not to. The difficulty we have is, despite repeated requests to be afforded with statement of these witnesses, we could have verified all of this information long in advance. We were not given the statements. The abridged summaries were only given to us on Saturday, and it makes it very difficult to test the correctness of the version which is being said other than understanding the motive that explains it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Can you explain why, if that is the case, why the relevant documents were not made available? MR VALLY I have been advised that the full statement that we have been relying was in fact given, with the exception of addresses, to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's legal team. We have removed the addresses but otherwise the same details are there. CHAIRPERSON The statement, you have heard for yourself, I shouldn't repeat, you have got the statement with the address elided. And now you have to say whether you have or haven't? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I can give it to yourself. I have a translation here that was given to us on Saturday past. It does not even tell me when these statements were made, before whom they were made, and I can't even verify any of the things that are said here. I also have a set of statements from the TRC which say conflicting versions because of these summaries. I am unable to deal with these things. That's the difficulty I have. CHAIRPERSON What I think we should do is again, I mean all I think you should be doing, given the limitations under which you are operating apparently, is to say my client contests this particular fact and this and this and this in the witness's statement, which has already been presented to you in verbal testimony. I think that is what you should be doing, please. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I would request in the fullness of time to have a statement of this particular witness. For now, Ma'am, you say the perception is that the Mandela Football Club was looked in bad light? MS DLAMINI Yes, when they started, this Mandela Football Club, everybody admired them and I even went to watch their football matches, but after quite some time they conducted a reign of terror, burning people's houses and killing people. That's what changed my perception about them. MR SEMENYA You say your brother was burning houses and killing people? MS DLAMINI I never used to go out with him, I don't know what he used to do. MR SEMENYA ... the Football Club were burning the houses and killing people. MS DLAMINI I do not know their names. MR SEMENYA Which killing did you personally witness by the Mandela Football Club? MS DLAMINI They assaulted me personally. MR SEMENYA Which killing did you personally witness? MS DLAMINI I am not going to answer that question. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Are there any questions from the panel here? Hlengiwe. MS MKHIZE Thank you. Phumlile, I just have one question in your statement on page 25. Actually I don't have one, sorry Chairperson, I have three brief ones. Where you say soon after Winnie's house in Orlando was burnt, then you go on to say Winnie and Shakes came to see your parents and Shakes came in first and briefed you that Winnie had sent for your brother but that she was really after you. It's like the statement leading to a beating. Can you just clarify to us what is the link between that visit and the burning of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house? It's like there are two - I should think for the record's sake it's important for you to clarify what exactly were the circumstances, because it's like you linked it with the burning of the house, and also Shakes whispered to you that they haven't come for your brother but Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was after you, can you just clarify that? MS DLAMINI The burning of the house is a separate incident and the assault is another incident. When Shakes came to my place he went in first and he told me that they had come to see me but Winnie was going to pretend as if she was looking for Thole, and I told him to tell Mandela that Thole was not in there and Shakes went back to speak to Winnie Mandela, and he came back and said Winnie had instructed me to come and show them the hall where Thole was. That's when I went into Mrs Mandela's car and Winnie said, "Shakes, drive, we are going to my place, we are no longer going to the hall", and as the house had been burnt, that has got nothing to do with the assault. MS MKHIZE Something which you mentioned that Dudu Pili promised you that she will report this matter to the Women's League. Was the matter - your human rights violation ever reported as promised? Did the Women's League do anything about it? MS DLAMINI She went to report, as far as I know. MS MKHIZE ... a recorded matter which was discussed. A fellow Commissioner is saying maybe I should just say to you, do you know that it was reported as she promised? MS DLAMINI She gave me a report-back that she reported the matter and we never followed it up. MS MKHIZE .... the point regarding the condition of the child. You said that because you are not employed, the child has never been seen by doctors. Even after Minister Zuma's announcement of free health care, you haven't had an opportunity of the child being seen, or even the school, have they never thought of sending the child to a clinic? MS DLAMINI No, not as yet. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, very much. I should have asked Mr Cross whether you wanted, after the cross-examination, any points that you wanted to clarify. No? MR CROSS Thank you, Mr Chairperson, we don't have any points we wish to clarify. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Any other? Thank you very much, you may step down. MS DLAMINI EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Order please. We now call Nicodemus Sono and Nomsa Shabalala. MR UNTERHALTER Chair, I appear for both Mr Sono and Mrs Shabalala. It's David Unterhalter, together with Peter Jordi. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, very much. Order please. NICODEMUS SONO (sworn in) NOMSA SHABALALA (sworn in) MR UNTERHALTER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Sono, if I might begin with you. Could you - you are the father of Lolo Sono, is that correct? MR SONO That is correct. MR UNTERHALTER Could you tell us when you first met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SONO I met Mrs Mandela in 1976 for the first time at the funeral of Hector Petersen. MR UNTERHALTER From that time did you meet Mrs Mandela again from time to time? MR SONO Yes, I did. In 1986 my cousin Peter, who was in exile, he came and he asked me to take him to Mrs Mandela's place. MR UNTERHALTER Could you just identify your cousin Peter for the Commission please? MR SONO Peter, it's Frans Tebogo Maluleke. If I say Tebogo I mention Peter. If I say Tebogo it's still Peter, he use three names. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. He was a relative of yours? MR SONO That's correct, he was my cousin. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now tell us the circumstances in which he came into South Africa? MR SONO Well, he came in to infiltrate in the country, and he always came to my place because he trusted me that I will help him whenever he come with the comrades from Zambia or Botswana or Tanzania. MR UNTERHALTER Was he an MK member? MR SONO That's correct. MR UNTERHALTER You said that he wanted to see Mrs Mandela When would this have been? MR SONO That was in 1986. MR UNTERHALTER And what did you do? MR SONO Indeed I did take him through to Mrs Mandela's house. MR UNTERHALTER And did you meet her again when that happened? MR SONO No, that time he wanted to see her alone because he said to me he had something to speak to her about, and I waited outside. He said to me go the third street from here, I will see you in twenty minutes. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Did Mrs Mandela give you any kind of other assistance at this time? MR SONO Not personally to me by then She was dealing with Peter. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now I want to take you to the events in 1988 and particularly the events concerning your son Lolo. At that time, in early 1988 and in the course of that year, were you aware at all that Lolo was connected with Mrs Mandela or the Football Club? MR SONO No, I was not aware because Peter came in 1988, July the 18th, when he came to my place with Sepo. MR UNTERHALTER Yes, who is Sepo? MR SONO Sepo is Peter's comrade who was also from outside the country. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now were they staying at your house? MR SONO That's correct, they were staying at my house. MR UNTERHALTER That is Sepo and Peter? MR SONO Sepo and Peter, yes. MR UNTERHALTER And did Lolo meet them at your house whilst they were staying with you? MR SONO Yes, Lolo used to hang around with them during the day when I was going to work. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now in about September 1988, could you tell us whether Sepo was arrested by the police? MR SONO Yes, Sepo was first arrested in August and again in 1988, September, Sepo was picked up by the Security Police of Protea, or just security police, that got him at my house and arrested him. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. And what happened after the arrest of Sepo? MR SONO After Sepo was taken away by the police, it was early hours of the morning, so the next day the boy next door by the name of Richmond, he called me and he said to me please take these things, he mentioned a gun, a hand-grenade and some other material of ammunition that he wanted me to take. He said this belongs to Sepo. And when I took that he said to me by the way behind your house too there is some other ammunitions, please remove them. So what I did I went behind my house where there was a box where I used to hide my tools and things, and I removed that ammunition and, plus the one that the boy has given me over the fence, put them in my car and I drove to Mrs Mandela's house in Diepkloof. MR UNTERHALTER Why did you go to Mrs Mandela's house with the arms and ammunition? MR SONO I went to Mrs Mandela's house because Mrs Mandela knew about the whole thing because I always took Peter and other comrades to Mrs Mandela's house and she knew of me that I am helping these MK cadres. MR UNTERHALTER Well, tell us what happened on that day that you took the arms and ammunition to Mrs Mandela's house. MR SONO When I got to Mrs Mandela's house I parked my vehicle outside and I went in and I spoke to her and she greeted me. MR UNTERHALTER How did you she greet you? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now what did Mrs Mandela have to say about the arrest of Sepo? MR SONO Well, as I have already mentioned, that Sepo has been arrested. She warned me that I must be careful that the security police will be after me, so I must make sure that I don't come around to her place because I've been watched and if they come to me I must let her know that what they want. MR UNTERHALTER Did the police in fact come after you, Mr Sono? MR SONO Yes, the police came in October because Sepo was arrested towards the end of September. Two weeks in October the police came to me. They left a notice that I must come and see them at Protea police station, the security branch. So Mrs Mandela has given me her telephone number. I tried to contact her at her home, I couldn't get through. The next thing that I did I risked - I went to Mrs Mandela and she told me it is dangerous but I must come and see her concerning that, and she gave me an address of Main Street to go and see her lawyers so that they can be able to help me and give me advice. So indeed I went to the lawyers in Main Street, who was Ismail Ayob, and I went in there. They attended to me, I told them what happened and they said to me, please, go to those police but don't make a statement. Tell them you want your lawyer. MR UNTERHALTER Mrs Mandela, when she told you to go and speak to the attorneys, Ismail Ayob, did this conversation take place on the telephone or did you meet with her again for this purpose? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Yes. And did you indeed go and see the police? MR SONO Yes I did went to see the police. MR UNTERHALTER And what happened? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now if I could take you to the events of November 1988 and in particular what your son Lolo was doing with the cadres who were together with Sepo and were working for MK at the time. Can you tell the Commission of Lolo's efforts to contact Peter? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Could you just describe that kombi for us? MR SONO It was a blue kombi with a white - a two-tone kombi, blue and white, it was a Volkswagen kombi. MR UNTERHALTER And who drove that kombi? MR SONO The guy by the name of Michael Siakamela, he was driving that kombi by that time. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Well you were telling us of a conversation you had with Mrs Mandela in your house on that day, could you continue? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Now did Lolo try to make contact with Peter? MR SONO Well, that has happened and I was not aware because Peter used to phone next door where there was a telephone, asking to speak to Lolo, and Lolo did not know where Peter was. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MR SONO But he always phoned next door and he requested to speak to Lolo. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now what do you know of Lolo's making contact with Peter? MR SONO Lolo making contact with Peter, is that the boy next door told me that Peter is phoning Lolo all the time, it's all what I knew, but by then Sepo was in and it was only Peter who I did not know where he is, and Lolo wanted to speak to him, Peter wanted to speak to Lolo, but Lolo did not know where he was. Until then November 1, I went to the Transkei on business. I came back on the 10th, it was early hours of the morning and I met Lolo at home, it was round about eight, nine o'clock. He again gave me two notices that were from the police. The one read that I must come to Protea police, the other one was for him to come to Protea police. And he said to me, Dad, the police are looking for you and me. Then I said to him so, let's go, not a problem. But on the way he started telling me that Peter is been shot dead at Mzimthlope and he was there, he witnessed the whole thing - MR UNTERHALTER (intervention) Yes, could you just tell us in a little more detail what Lolo told you of what had happened that had led to the death of Peter? MR SONO Yes. When I asked him that what happened, he said to me, on Monday when the police came he and Siboniso Shabalala took those notes and they went to Mrs Mandela's house to show her that the police are looking for them, and he said to me what Mrs Mandela did, took those notes and tore them up and said this is rubbish, don't go there. So that Monday and the Tuesday they never slept at home or anywhere else but they went to Siboniso's aunt in Mufulo, so the Wednesday they again went to Mrs Mandela, according to him when they got there in the morning they spoke to Mrs Mandela, they wanted to see Frans, and Mrs Mandela herself delegated her driver to take them to Mzimhlope where Frans was. MR UNTERHALTER In whose house was Frans being accommodated? MR SONO That was Jerry Richardson's house, that's where Frans was. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MR SONO And he said to me when he got there he quickly went at the gate, Frans met them and they gave him the cigarettes that he has asked them to bring and he quickly said to them, don't be here, don't stop here, go away, there's going to be trouble because Lolo said to me there was an helicopter hovering above Jerry Richardson's house. Then Frans chased away Lolo and Siboniso, but he said to me they never went away, they just hid themself next to the shop and they witnessed everything that has happened that day. MR UNTERHALTER And what did in fact happen that day? MR SONO He told me that Frans was shot, he was with another comrade that I did not know his name, he was also shot, and one policeman was also shot dead. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MR SONO We were on our way to Protea. When we got to Protea police station we met Captain Kleynhans. Captain Kleynhans said to me, not Captain Kleynhans, I am sorry, that's Captain Potgieter, he said to me he cannot see us today because they are preparing to bury the policeman that was shot at Richardson's house. If I am not mistaken it's Sergeant Pretorius. Before I went out, he said to me come to my office. He showed me photos of Frans and this other comrade. I could only identify Frans, and said this is my relative, Frans. He said do me a favour, go and tell his parents that Frans has been shot dead. That was on the Thursday the 10th. Then indeed I went away and I did what he had asked me to do. MR UNTERHALTER Tell me, Mr Sono, why did you go to the police in the light of what your son had told you of what had happened on the 9th of November? MR SONO It would have been more dangerous for me if the police request me to come and I don't go. I had to go because they wanted to see me with Lolo. When they postponed the appointment they asked - the postponed appointment for Monday the 14th, that we must be there very early in the morning, before eight o'clock, and we agreed on that. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MR SONO So me and Lolo went back home. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now what happened over that weekend, Mr Sono? MR SONO Over that weekend on Sunday the 13th I went to visit my friends and relatives in Krugersdorp, Kagiso, and I came back late in the evening. The time was around about ten to eight when I drove into my yard and Michael Siyagamela, who was then Mrs Mandela's driver, he called me from outside, he came behind me, said, sorry, there is somebody that wants to see you outside. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MR SONO Indeed I walked with him. When we got to my gate, the blue kombi was parked a few houses from my street and I went with him to the kombi. When we got to the kombi, he took the driver's seat and I opened the slide door, these guys who were here moved for me, I got a seat there, Lolo and other young men were at the back of the kombi and Lolo was in the middle. There were two guys having their hands like that to him MR UNTERHALTER (Intervention) Just describe it for us. MR SONO They had his hands like that, the other one was on the other side and he was sort of strange to sit that way, so Mrs Mandela was not facing front she has turned on the passenger seat as if she is facing the driver and she spoke to me on this position and she told me that she has brought Lolo to me that I must see him. He is a police spy. MR UNTERHALTER Could you tell us, Mr Sono, before you continue, did you get a good look at your son? MR SONO Yes, because when I opened the slide door, the light in the kombi went on and I could see Lolo at the back, he was beaten up, his face was bruised, it was actually pulped, he was like you know thick, as if somebody has beaten him up and crushed him against the wall. MR UNTERHALTER And did Lolo speak to you? MR SONO When Lolo tried to speak, he was told to shut up by Mrs Mandela. MR UNTERHALTER Now tell me, Mr Sono, what did Mrs Mandela say? MR SONO Mrs Mandela explained to me that Lolo is a spy and for that reason that the two comrades at Richardson's house were killed. They were sold by Lolo. And I denied that. I tried to explain to her that Lolo is not a spy. In fact Lolo was helping Peter and Sepo when they were around, he has done quite a lot for them, and I don't believe that he is a spy. But she suddenly changed and, you know, she looked at me the other way. Then I changed my talking to her and I started pleading with her. When I pleaded with her I said to her, please, leave Lolo with me because he has already been beaten. If it's for a punishment, I understand that he's been punished, can't you please leave him with me, and she refused ...(intervention) MR UNTERHALTER What was her tone of voice, Mr Sono? MR SONO From Mrs Mandela? MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MR SONO Well, she was really not speaking to me all right as I always knew her and when I spoke to her she was polite, but she raised up her voice, she was speaking very loud, you know. "I cannot leave him with you. He is a spy". So I tried to plead with her. What she said to the driver, she said he must pull off, so the driver engaged the gears and he pulled off. As we go down she asked the driver to turn round the block and we were still in the kombi, we turned right round the block, and we stopped again in front of my house. When I looked at Lolo he was in a terrible state, he was shaking. Then I asked her that may I please get a jersey for Lolo because by then I thought he's feeling cold, you know, as if he was beaten to an extent that he passed out and a bucket of water was poured over him. Then she agreed that we must get a jersey for Lolo. MR UNTERHALTER Did Mrs Mandela or anyone else in the minibus say that, yes, he was cold or explain how this had happened? MR SONO No, she didn't explain anything. She agreed that we must get a jersey for Lolo. Then, when we alighted from the kombi, me and Lolo, there was this tall hefty young man who had Lolo on the collar of his shirt and pushed him towards the gate. He had a gun on the other hand. So we went to my gate and these boys said we must stop. When we stopped, the boy next door, Lolo spoke to him, he said, please bring those things. I didn't know what was those things. That boy went into his room and he brought a white envelope, had some photos inside, and that boy grabbed those photos and he quickly went through them and he didn't say anything. He just went through the photos and he hold them to him. She said to Michael again, "pull off", so Michael pulled off. As we went down I pleaded with her until she said to me, "I am taking this dog away. The movement will see what to do". The kombi turned left at the stop street and as we wanted to proceed I asked Michael to please stop. He stopped. As he stopped I alighted from the sliding door. Standing on my feet I tried to plead again. She couldn't talk to me, she just said to Michael "pull off" and Michael indeed pulled off. I closed the slide door, off went the kombi. That was the last time I saw my son Lolo, in the company of Mrs Mandela and some young men that were not known to me. MR UNTERHALTER Mr Sono, do you know how your son went from your house and ended up with Mrs Mandela? MR SONO Yes, because after they have left, then my wife said to me, actually that kombi was here during the day looking for Lolo and Siboniso, and one of them had Lolo Sono and Siboniso Shabalala's name on a box of matches and she told them that they were not there, Lolo was not there, and asked them a question, who are you? They said we are sent by Mrs Mandela, we are the Mandela Football Team boys. So that's what they told her. And when Lolo came back during the day he was told that the blue kombi was here, Mrs Mandela has sent for you. He said, well, I know, and he went himself to the Diepkloof house of Mrs Mandela. MR UNTERHALTER MR SONO Yes, the very same day, 1988, after I got home from down the corner, my neighbour, Mr Shabalala, who is unfortunately late now, he came up to see me and he told me that there by his house there were boys looking for his son, Siboniso Shabalala, and these boys told him that they were from the Mandela United Football Club, and he also saw the box of match with Lolo Sono and Siboniso Shabalala's names on the back of the box of match. And he asked them, why do you look for them? And the other one said to him, they have joined the team when I am not there, so I want to speak to them. Please when your son come back tell him to see us, and Shabalala told me that. The I said to Shabalala, do you think it's wise if you could go, follow the kombi, or we should go to the police to report because the police at Protea wanted me to come with Lolo on Monday morning. He said no, it's not a wise move, because there was another kombi on the next street facing our houses and it had its lights off. He says no, we will see that tomorrow morning. So the next day when we met with Shabalala, it was round about ten to seven or seven o'clock in the morning, I asked him about his son, did he come back? He said yes, he did come back. I spoke to him about what happened. He said no, I am not going to stay here and I am not going anywhere to hide, I know where Lolo is gone to, I am going to follow him, and I am going where Lolo has gone. He left. That was round about ten past six in the morning, according to his father. MR UNTERHALTER Do you recall who the policeman was that said that to you, that he wouldn't take your statement? MR SONO Yes, that was Captain Potgieter, the one that I am supposed to have seen. CHAIRPERSON Can I just - we would have had a lunch break at one o'clock. Unfortunately the catering arrangements for those who are having lunch arranged for them are for half past one, and so I thought we would go on to half past one. MR UNTERHALTER Thank you. You were telling us Mr Sono that you were told that you should go and make a report at the Meadowlands police station, and is that what you did? MR SONO Yes, that's what I did. When I got to Meadowlands police station I was shown a office where I should make my statement and a black policeman attended to me. MR UNTERHALTER And did you make a statement to them? MR SONO Yes, I did report the matter what happened, but when it came to a statement when I said to that policeman, in that blue kombi in the front seat there was Mrs Mandela and the other boys that I didn't know, I only know Mrs Mandela and Michael the driver, that policeman stopped writing and he said to me he wants to refer to somebody, the senior there. Then he went to a Captain Kleynhans and spoke to him. And Captain Kleynhans said to him he can carry on with the statement. So we finished off the statement, all in details, and it was in the hands of the police, and I went to work. MR UNTERHALTER Were you given a case number? MR SONO No, I was not given a case number. MR UNTERHALTER Now what happened thereafter as far as police investigations of this matter are concerned? MR SONO In February again ...(intervention) MR UNTERHALTER Sorry, could I just stop you. Mrs Mandela's response was simply that we dropped off Lolo somewhere? MR SONO Yes, she said "somewhere", yes, but she doesn't say somewhere where. That's what she said. MR UNTERHALTER Sorry, what happened then? MR SONO I went again in February and I got the same answer. And when the Stompie Seipei thing came up, I started thinking, should I go to Mrs Mandela? I said yes, of course, why not? I kept on going to Mrs Mandela, and I spoke to her several times, and she couldn't just, you know, come out with a clear answer. And I remember at some stage in 1989 I had financial constraints which she knew of and I spoke to her about it. And Mrs Mandela, she gave me a cheque of R751, that was concerning my bond and she helped me pay it. She gave me the cheque and I paid to SA Perm by then. And she helped me with that and we were in talking terms. But just before Mr Mandela was released I went three to four times, and she refused to see me. MR UNTERHALTER So you are saying shortly before Mr Mandela was released you actually went to her house three or four times, is that on the same day? MR SONO Yes, on the same day. MR UNTERHALTER And why wouldn't she speak to you? MR SONO I don't know, because the lady that came out she told me Mrs Mandela is busy preparing for the press conference. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Now if I can then just take you to the question of the police and their investigations, or lack of them, were you ever contacted again by the police? MR SONO No, I was not contacted by the police until that some police came to me, that was in February towards the end, they took me and Mrs Shabalala to a Diepkloof morgue. MR UNTERHALTER Diepkloof morgue. MR SONO Diepkloof morgue. They identified themselves as police who were working on cases at Natal Midlands and they have locked up quite a lot of people there as they said to me and they want us to go and try and identify bodies in the morgue, if we can be able to identify those bodies. MR UNTERHALTER And were you able to identify your son? MR SONO No, they were unknown bodies to us, and we were taken back to Meadowlands. MR UNTERHALTER Now at the time of Mrs Mandela's trial, were you contacted again by the police or by the Attorney General's office? MR SONO We were contacted by the police, we were subpoenaed to go to the Supreme Court, and it was in 1991 when I saw Captain Dempsey for the first time, who pretended to be knowing me ...(intervention) MR UNTERHALTER When you say he pretended to be knowing you, what do you mean? What did Captain Dempsey say? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Yes. And you were interviewed at the time of the trial by Captain Dempsey, is that correct? MR SONO Well, he spoke to me briefly and he said to me he wants me to go to the advocates and tell them what happened. MR UNTERHALTER Yes, and did you tell the Attorney General's office what happened? MR SONO Yes, I did tell them what happened. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. You were not called as a witness, however, at the trial? MR SONO No, I was not called. All what they said to me, they said to me we must be stand-by, me, Mr Shabalala, and other two boys that were from Thokoza, and we stayed there at the courts. They never called us. The last thing that they told me is that there is not enough evidence in my case, so they cannot put it through. MR UNTERHALTER Did you have any contact with Commissioner George Fivaz, and when did that happen? MR SONO Yes, that has happened in 1995, March. We went to Commissioner Fivaz in his offices in Cape Town, and I went to him to tell him my story, and he said to me he will ask the police to look for the docket, and as soon as the police get the docket he is going to make sure that they pursue the matter, it must not be left unattended, but he sympathised with me and he was very professional in his words. He did not want to commit himself and he just said he will make sure the police do their work. MR UNTERHALTER And were you contacted again by the police thereafter? MR SONO No, there was no contact from the police. MR UNTERHALTER No contact from the police. MR SONO No, I had no contact from the police except that the following day, or just a few days after we came from Cape Town, Captain Dempsey came to my place. He was very cross with us because he said what is this thing of you going to see Mr Fivaz in Cape Town. He didn't like that. MR UNTERHALTER Are you aware, Mr Sono, that the docket in this matter has gone missing? Are you aware of that? MR SONO I am not aware of that. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Hanif? MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Sono, were you more active in ANC underground structures than just taking the ammunition to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house on that occasion? MR SONO Well, I can say I was active in the way that when the guys came I was their contact and I helped them as much as I can. MR VALLY You owned a small fleet of mini-buses, is that correct? MR SONO Yes. MR VALLY Did you use this for ANC underground activities? MR SONO Well, if it come to a push that they need transport, I had to transport them. MR VALLY In view of your involvement with the ANC, as well as the fact that the police had come before to your house, why did you go to the police to report Lolo's disappearance? MR SONO I have to go to the police to report because if I didn't go they wouldn't understand the problem that why didn't I bring him with me to them, because this was made to make sure that they have no loopholes whatsoever that they can be able to get me. MR VALLY So you reported Lolo's disappearance in order to ensure that the police wouldn't be upset with you for not coming with Lolo to them? MR SONO Not exactly that. In that time you know that the police, if you don't co-operate with them in some other way, you were just inviting trouble. MR VALLY When you reported Lolo's disappearance to the police, did you directly implicate Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SONO I mentioned what happened exactly. MR VALLY I need to ask you this question. You were on very friendly terms with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, even though you seem to indicate now you believe that she was responsible for your son's disappearance. You went to her house, she paid your bond, how do you explain this contradictory - ? MR SONO That is to say that I had a belief all along that my son is somewhere in Zambia, in ANC camps or whatever, because when she said I will take this dog to the movement, the movement will see what to do, to me the movement is that he was being taken outside where there are ANC camps or something. MR VALLY How long did you have this belief for that your son may be in ANC camps? MR SONO I had this belief all along until all sorts of things came out and read in the paper where some other people claimed to have killed my son and all that. It's when that I saw it in the papers that people say they know the secret grave of my son and all that, then it's when I started having doubts about it. MR VALLY Mr Sono during the first in camera hearing, inquiry for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, on page 113, we put to her the version given by yourself and your wife that you last saw Lolo injured in her presence outside your home, that you pleaded with her to release him. Her response was this was incorrect information. She went on to say that there was no such incident which you and your wife described. She further stated that your assertion that you pleaded for his release is false. She said your allegation that Lolo was beaten is absolute nonsense, at page 114. In short she almost completely refuted everything you alleged. She also said you have come to her house subsequent to that period but you have never raised the issue of Lolo's disappearance with her. Is this correct? MR SONO It is not correct. I did go and raise Lolo's issue with her, and it is true that when she went away with Lolo in a blue kombi she was herself present in the kombi and it was driven by Michael Siyakamela. MR VALLY Do you have any knowledge of Lolo working as a courier for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SONO No, I don't have that knowledge. As I have mentioned earlier that Lolo used to hang out with Peter, Sepo and other young men at my place and I was - I don't have any knowledge of that. MR VALLY Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said she used him as a courier a number of times, do you have any knowledge of this? MR SONO No, I don't have, I don't have that knowledge. MR VALLY MR SONO It's incorrect. MR VALLY Did Lolo often spend nights at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SONO Not to my knowledge. MR VALLY In the back rooms? MR SONO At Mrs Mandela's house? MR VALLY That's right. MR SONO Not to my knowledge because as he has explained to me when he went on Monday, the very Monday and Tuesday he went to Mafulo with Siboniso they spent nights at Siboniso's aunt in Mafulo, not at Mrs Mandela's house. MR VALLY Was he ever a member of the Football Club? MR SONO No, I don't know of that. MR VALLY Have you ever raised this issue with the ANC? MR SONO Yes, in 1990 when the ANC was unbanned, I went to 54 Sauer Street and I made a statement to two young chappies, which they even asked me for Lolo's photo, which I gave them the photo and I made a statement to them, and they never come back to me until somebody in Pretoria has spoken on behalf of Frans, and Mr Morodi and another gentleman and a lady, they contacted me. By then the ANC has moved to Shell House, which they invited me to Shell House. I spoke to them and they told me they were the people that received all the people that were sent to exile and they knew everybody, they have photos, they have names and as they are unbanned they are coming back to go to parents that has lost their children in striking, that has lost their children in training, they go around and tell them what happened. So they said to me they will look at my matter, and they did come to my house and they said they don't know of Lolo and they haven't seen him, they don't even have his picture or his nickname. MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Sono. CHAIRPERSON Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Sono, Mrs Mandela recalls the day when you, as you say, you brought the ammunition and arms to the house. That is consistent with what you are saying, am I correct? MR SONO That is not correct because she cannot recall the day that I brought the ammunition to her house only and not recall the other days that I have seen her before. MR SEMENYA No, I am just mentioning one of the days. MR SONO Yes, that is correct. I was there, she saw me. MR SEMENYA And that you did come when you had financial difficulties to request for assistance? MR SONO That is correct, I did mention that. MR SEMENYA Now if I understand you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could you speak sort of directly into the - ? MR SEMENYA If I understand your evidence, the only reason why, according to you, Lolo was brought by Mrs Mandela to you was that they must come and tell you that he's a spy? MR SONO That's what she said to me. I cannot say the only reason, that's what she said to me. MR SEMENYA Are you aware of any reason why Lolo was brought to you? MR SONO Well, according to me, I think Lolo could have brought Mrs Mandela and the boys to me so that I can be able to rescue him from Mrs Mandela and the boys. That's why he led them back to my house so that I can be able to plead for him, and which I failed. MR SEMENYA No, but, if I understand, if they didn't want to come to your house they would not have come to your house. MR SONO I cannot answer to that one because I tell you my version, I cannot answer to that one. MR SEMENYA But, according to you, you can't think of a reason why they would just bring him purely to say your son is a spy? That they could have told you any other occasion, is that correct? MR SONO No, that, I strongly believe that he might have promised them something. You know it's two things here. He might have promised them something that is at the house, that is why they had patience to wait for me when I was not home. MR SEMENYA Did Lolo say to you that he had promised them something? MR SONO He did not speak to me in the kombi or outside the kombi, because when he wanted to say something he was told to shut up. MR SEMENYA Now where do you get this thought that Lolo would have promised them something? MR SONO Well, if you beat up a spy and he's getting hurt or if you suspect the person is a spy, what is the best thing that a person can relieve himself from, is to say, yes, I've got something. The police used to do that. We used to agree to things from the police, knowing very well it's not true. MR SEMENYA Now where does this come from ...(intervention) MR SONO No, no..... MR SEMENYA Were you a spy? MR SONO No, I am not a spy and I will never be one. MR SEMENYA Where do you get this theory that when people get accused they must conjure various scenarios? MR SONO Well, that is part of the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I am so sorry, I mean, I think again we are not - you are not doing what you should be doing. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, what am I supposed to be doing? CHAIRPERSON Most people who live in South Africa would know certain things about the way police operated. I mean I would have thought that that was common knowledge. MR SEMENYA Well, I don't want to fall foul again, what am I supposed to be doing, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON I said to you that what we are seeking to do is - you, it is matters of fact that if you have to dispute and you are therefore wanting to put another version, let us have that particular version. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, with respect I do not know what is fact, and I think this TRC has been instituted to establish exactly what is fact. CHAIRPERSON That is exactly what we are seeking to do. MR SEMENYA Then I can only use the technique I know best to establish whether it is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Excuse me, you wonderful people at the back there, you have every freedom to say whatever you like - outside. If you want to have comments you have every right, it's your constitutional right, but when you are in this hearing, will you please follow the procedures that I have laid out? I don't want to be tough, but if you want to see me tough, I will be. And I am just asking because we want this to be as amicable as you can make it. But please don't tempt me. Ja. MR SEMENYA Mr Sono, how many people are you saying are in the kombi? MR SONO I don't know how many people were there, I did not count them. MR SEMENYA Is it possible to look back and reflect and tell more or less how many people are in the kombi? MR SONO No. MR SEMENYA Do you know if Mr Sekamela is around? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA Again through you, I don't know, we have not been afforded a statement of a Mr Sekamela. Do you know why that is so? MR SONO I cannot answer that, you can ask that to the police. I don't know, because I gave them everything. MR SEMENYA So other than Mr Sekamela, Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Lolo, in the car who else do you say is there? MR SONO Other young men that were not known to me. MR SEMENYA According to my recollection and my reading of the record it is the very first time today that you say Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said, "I am taking this dog to the movement". MR SONO Is it a question? MR SEMENYA Am I correct sir, or not? MR SONO MR SEMENYA When did you say, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said I am taking this dog, not away, to the movement, when did you say that any other occasion? MR SONO I did say it many times, I can't recall how many times I said that. MR SEMENYA Well, I can just put it to you, it doesn't appear in the record and I have tried to read the record as carefully as I could. Now, according to that statement, then you knew that he would have been taken to the movement, is that correct? MR SONO I had that belief. MR SEMENYA So why do you go to her to ask where Lolo Sono is? MR SONO I have to know if somebody has crossed the borders they usually respond or tell people, where some people will know where they are. MR SEMENYA Let me put it this way, at what point do you begin to be uncomfortable about Lolo's safety? MR SONO Ask your question simple, at what point - do you mean time frame or you mean month or something? Just be specific. MR SEMENYA Anyone that you choose, sir. MR SONO I have explained that, you know, when all sort of things came out I started being concerned. Everybody has got their doubts. I had doubts as a human being. MR SEMENYA What is your answer, sir? MR SONO My answer is that I had doubts, although I have mentioned first that, after Stompie's death, I started raising my eyebrows and things. It is correct that I must have doubts. MR SEMENYA And it is precisely after Stompie that you go and ask for financial assistance from Mrs Mandela? MR SONO Before that. MR SEMENYA Was it before? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA As you would have heard from Mr Vally, the version that there was Mrs Mandela with a kombi (indistinct) Lolo Sono at your house is incorrect. Do you want to give a further response? MR SONO MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Can I just ask, would you be able to indicate just how long, how much longer you want to go on so that if it is substantial then maybe we should break for lunch. MR SEMENYA I would think it more convenient that we take the lunch adjournment now, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Please just settle. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I have asked for order, please. Will the people at the back kindly note I have said, order? Thank you. MR SEMENYA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Sono, my reading of the transcript in the earlier occasion gives me an impression that you say the only person who was very helpful to you was Tony Leon. I think that's the leader of the Democratic Party. MR SONO Please ask the question again. MR SEMENYA I gain an impression, within the record, that you say the only person who was helpful to you was Tony Leon? MR SONO Yes, he was helpful to me. MR SEMENYA In what manner was he helpful, financially? MR SONO Not financially, but he did make sure that they pursue the matter somehow or the other. MR SEMENYA Did he assist you in flying to Cape Town to see Mr Fivaz? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA So he organised your ticket? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA Over and above the ticket what does Tony Leon give you? MR SONO Nothing. MR SEMENYA So you had nothing to eat for the duration of your trip? MR SONO Come again? MR SEMENYA Okay, you tell us, sir, that the only thing Tony Leon organised for you was the air ticket, is that right? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA And you say he did what he can in any other way, what do you mean? MR SONO MR SEMENYA I would have expected as an ANC member you would have found people within the ANC to assist you. MR SONO I did go to the ANC. I did not get an assistance and I never cared who helped me, whether Tony Leon or anybody who had interest, I would have welcomed the help. MR SEMENYA As I read another section of the record, when attempts were made to locate the place where bodies would have been buried, you come out quite pronounced to say that you have no confidence in the person that was doing the pointing out. MR SONO In which manner do you ask that question? MR SEMENYA No, I am just reading something, the transcript of what you would have said. Under this particular paragraph it stands, Who is this person? MR SONO I don't know what you are talking of because you ask me a question, you should tell me who that person was because I did not know who that person was. MR SEMENYA No, I am trying to quote you, sir. MR SONO I don't know to whom you are referring to. MR SEMENYA Can I give you this page maybe to refresh your memory? MR UNTERHALTER Chairperson, to assist, I wonder whether Mr Semenya could just identify what page of the record is being referred to. It's a bit hard to follow. MR SEMENYA The record unfortunately is not numbered. CHAIRPERSON There are paragraph numbers, I believe. MR SEMENYA Each page has paragraph number 10, 20, 30, so it won't assist. MR VALLY Mr Semenya, if you look on the left that's a line number, if you look in the middle of the hearing record that's a paragraph number. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to assist? MR UNTERHALTER Paragraph 24. CHAIRPERSON Paragraph 24. MR SONO Yes, I've got it. MR SEMENYA Who is this person you say you don't have confidence in? MR SONO That I was referring to Jerry Richardson, because he is the one that came out that he said here is secret graves where my son was buried. MR SEMENYA Oh, you have no confidence in Jerry Richardson? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA Why? MR SONO I mean, if that has happened in 1988, why did he keep mum while I appealed to say, please help me find my son. Why did he keep mum? MR SEMENYA Is that the only reason? MR SONO Yes, that's the only reason and that I wanted to know where my son's remains are, if it's the case that he's killed so that I can exhume and re-bury. MR SEMENYA Can I refer you to what must be then paragraph 17. In that paragraph you say that a Captain Dempsey, and you are referring to some name that is indistinct, you say instead of Captain Dempsey taking this person to the police station he took that person to Winnie. MR SONO That I was referring to papers that came - those matters came out of papers. MR SEMENYA You are saying you don't know what they are about, you are just reading them from papers? MR SONO Yes. No, I don't know this person's name. Kulwa, I don't know that person's name. Oh that, you are referring to Katiza Cebekhulu? MR SEMENYA Oh, were you referring to Cebekhulu? MR SONO Yes. MR SEMENYA You are saying that Captain Dempsey took him to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SONO I said that because I heard it saying, it was said by other people, and that's why I made that. MR SEMENYA Now I also hear it said that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has been linked to murders. Let us talk about Siboniso Shabalala. The link that is there is that his name, Siboniso, would have been on a matchbox, is that right? MR SONO Siboniso Shabalala? MR SEMENYA His name was on a matchbox, that's the link to the murder of Shabalala? MR SONO No, I cannot answer that one because my son is Lolo, and Siboniso was his friend, so somebody that was looking for them had their two names on the box of match, so what is your question? MR SEMENYA Are you suggesting in the slightest of manners that the disappearance of Siboniso Shabalala must be attributable to Mrs Mandela? MR SONO I am not deciding, I am not saying anything about that, as I have said in my statement that Siboniso went himself and he said he is going where Lolo has gone, that's all what I have said. MR SEMENYA So you are not trying to attribute a complexion that suggests Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has anything to do with the disappearance of Shabalala? MR SONO The Shabalalas are here, they will speak for themselves. I speak on behalf of the Sonos. MR SEMENYA But getting from you, you are not taking that case as I put it to you? MR SONO I have said to you that I was told he left on his own. MR SEMENYA Did anybody attempt to identify these people who call themselves the Mandela Football Club members? MR SONO Anybody like who? MR SEMENYA Anyone that you know who is able to identify the people who had the matchbox? MR SONO I cannot answer to that one because my wife told me two young men which were not known to her came to the house looking for Lolo, so I cannot say there is anybody that can identify that. MR SEMENYA If I understand you, and maybe this is my last question, the essence of your evidence is that the last time you saw your son it was with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SONO That is correct. The last time I saw my son was in the company of Mrs Mandela, Mike Siyakamela, in a blue kombi with young men that were not known to me. That was on the 13th of November 1988. MR SEMENYA What I am trying to ascertain is, are you saying therefore she has something to do with his disappearance? MR SONO I have already mentioned that she was present and she went away with him. What else must I say? MR SEMENYA Ja, what are you trying to have us infer from that? MR SONO I am not trying to have you infer of anything, but what I am clearly saying here is that Mrs Mandela went away with my son in a blue minibus kombi with other people that I never knew. That's what I told you. MR SEMENYA Did you on occasion work and help drive Mrs Mandela? MR SONO No, I have never driven her, she has only asked me a favour once to drive a bus to a certain garage in Meadowlands, that's all. MR SEMENYA I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Can I ask Mr Unterhalter is there any.... MR UNTERHALTER Mr Chairperson, I would have a few questions but it might be convenient if I ask them once everyone has had a chance from these benches to put their questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR RICHARD Thank you, Mr Chairman. Again Tony Richard representing Jerry Richardson. Mr Sono, if I make this proposition would you disagree with it or agree with it? If Mr Richardson had not applied for amnesty and owned up to being party to the killing of your son, you would not have known the truth. Is that true or false? MR SONO That is true. MR RICHARD Now you have made mention of him in your evidence. Do you find it unnatural that he took so long to own up? MR SONO I beg your pardon? MR RICHARD He took a long time to own up, do you find that unacceptable? MR SONO No, I found it acceptable. MR RICHARD And are you pleased that he has now told the truth? MR SONO Am I? MR RICHARD Pleased that he has now told the truth? MR SONO No, I am not pleased. MR RICHARD As much as you could be. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON I have the responsibility as the Chairperson of this Commission to see that we try and express a caring for the people who testify, and I just hope, I mean, that we will keep bearing that in mind and that it may have an impact on how we carry on our proceedings. Thank you very much. MR UNTERHALTER If I might put just one or two questions just by way of clarification. Mr Sono, it was said to you by Mr Vally, on behalf of the Commission, that was it not strange that you would go to the police? Is it correct that in fact, as I believe you mentioned in your testimony, that you had received a notice from the police and there had been one for Lolo as well that you should attend at the police offices? MR SONO Yes, it is correct that I was called by police to come to them, that's why I went to the police. Even after his disappearance, because I went and we were turned back to say come back on Monday. So there was a good reason for me going there because it was an appointment for Monday the 14th, that's why I went. MR UNTERHALTER And had you not gone what would have been the likely consequences? MR SONO I could have been locked up and I could have been framed of saying I have taken my son somewhere else. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now, Mr Sono, it was also said to you by Mr Semenya, who acts for Mrs Mandela, that the words that you used in your testimony which refer to Mrs Mandela saying, "The movement will decide what to do with this dog", was a matter that you had only recently brought to light, or a statement that you had only recently given. Can I refer you to one or two passages which indicate the origin of your testimony on this matter? Firstly, did you give a statement to the TRC? MR SONO Yes, I did. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. In that statement you say the following and if I could just read it "I was shocked to see my son in that condition. I asked what the problem was. Winnie told me that he was a police informer and she was taking him away. She did not tell me where, and that the "movement", meaning the ANC, will see what to do with him". Did you say that and make that statement? MR SONO Yes, I said that to the TRC. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Then there is a summary made by the TRC based upon statements that you had given and if I could just read a short sentence from the summary of your testimony "Mrs Mandela responded aggressively to enquiries from Mr Sono saying that Lolo was a police informer and that the "movement" would decide what to do with him". Is that a fair reflection of what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now Mr Sono you were also contacted by a journalist, Mr Bridgland who has been writing a book and has produced that book called Katiza's Journey, is that correct? MR SONO That is correct. MR UNTERHALTER I want to read to you from page 36 of that book. The following is there said and it is attributed to you. "I pleaded with Winnie to return my son. She totally refused. She said I am taking him with me. The movement will see what to do with him". Is that what you reported to Mr Bridgeland as what Mrs Mandela had said to you? MR SONO Yes, because she said many things and I did even spoke to John Carlin of Independent, which I also told him that she said the movement will see what to do with him, meaning the ANC. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. I have a transcript of what you said to Mr Carlin and it reads as follows. This is from the 27th of November 1990, and this is what you said in the statement Is that what you said to Mr Carlin in 1990? MR SONO That's correct. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now one other matter was put to you by Mr Semenya and that has to do with the identification of the men who came with the matchbox and the names of your son and Shabalala on the matchbox. Is it correct that, although your wife doesn't know the identity of those men, she is able to say that those men came and they asked for your son and that they came from Mrs Mandela who wanted them to go to her? Is that correct? MR SONO MR UNTERHALTER Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes. MR JOSEPH CHAIRPERSON I thought - what we are saying is that we would seek, in terms of a cross-examination, if facts are challenged, facts are challenged. MR JOSEPH Now if my memory serves me correctly there has been direct evidence tendered by this gentleman implicating a person over here, who is represented, and that evidence has not been challenged. I contrast that with the evidence that was tendered by a lady earlier on and the legal representative dealt with that evidence on the basis that it was a figment of that witness' imagination. CHAIRPERSON Hanif. MR VALLY Thank you, Archbishop. The position in terms of the procedure, in terms of how we are going to make our findings finally is a combination of factors. It doesn't revolve only around what is put to a specific witness at a specific point. Regarding this particular issue we have the in camera Section 29 Inquiry. Certain positions were taken there on the issue. Secondly, we are going to have Mrs Madikizela-Mandela also having the opportunity later this week. Thirdly, we also do independent corroboration, independent investigations. It's a combination of all this evidence put together when the Commissioners on their own would make a finding of whatever sort. MR JOSEPH How does any one of my learned friend know what evidence which has been tendered by Mr Sono implicating the lady is accepted by the lady as being the truth, without her legal representative challenging on these issues? CHAIRPERSON Which legal representative are you talking about? MR JOSEPH Mr Semenya acting on behalf of ...(intervention) MR NTSEBEZA Mr Joseph, I would like to get some clarification. You represent Mr Cebekhulu, don't you, and you are looking after the interests of Mr Cebekhulu, isn't it? Mrs Mandela is ably represented by Mr Semenya. MR JOSEPH Yes. MR NTSEBEZA I would like to think, I don't know, maybe I didn't understand you, it would appear to me that in that event your own position should be to safeguard the interests of Mr Cebekhulu. MR JOSEPH Let me not take this matter any further. I thought that it would be in the interests of everybody ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, thank you very much. Lawyers are wonderful people. We are grateful. I was going to ask whether my panel here have questions. Yes, Dumisa. MR NTSEBEZA Thank you very much, Chair. Mr Sono, I believe you have a copy of the transcript of the Human Rights Violations hearing on the 25th of July 1996 at which you testified, I think it's before you. MR SONO Ja. MR NTSEBEZA And above paragraph 16, just to add on what Mr Unterhalter had been putting to you, do you see paragraph 16 just above that where it says Mr Manthata? Was that another place where you did mention, other than today the fact that you understood Mrs Mandela to be saying the movement would see what to do with Lolo? MR SONO Please ask your question again. MR NTSEBEZA Is that - if you see the paragraph that I referred to, just above that, Mr Manthata put a question to you, is that another place where you mentioned that - do you get the place? MR SONO Yes. MR NTSEBEZA Is that another place, other than today, where you did mention the fact that you heard Mrs Mandela say to you the movement will decide what to do with Lolo? MR SONO That is correct. MR NTSEBEZA Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Faizel. DR RANDERA Mr Sono, two quick questions. Your son disappeared in November of 1988. You mentioned earlier on the publicity that came around Stompie Sepei. Now there was a great deal of publicity in December and January of that month because those four young people were taken away from the Manse on the 29th of December 1988, and, of course, as I understand it church leaders were asking about these issues, the Mass Democratic Movement were asking and making statements, did you at any time approach either the church leaders or people from the Mass Democratic Movement about the disappearance of your son, and I accept that at that time you said that one possibility was that he may have left the country, but you were also saying earlier on that it was the publicity around Stompie that made you reconsider other possibilities. Did you ever go to any of those church leaders or to the MDM? MR SONO No, I did not go. DR RANDERA MR SONO No, I did not. DR RANDERA So the first time you made a statement was with the Truth Commission? MR SONO When the Truth and Reconciliation matter came up, then I took the opportunity to make the statement, but the police had my statements anyway. DR RANDERA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Khoza. MR MGOJO MR SONO Well, mentioning for the fact that there were people that contacted me and tell me how many cadres are coming, what should I do for them, but after all this has happened fear crept into me because it was mere fear that I was fearing for my life, and I was fearing for the life of people in my surroundings. I did not want to implicate anybody on that. That's why I had to take it alone. Because, to give you a clear picture, in my street, there were more than ten young men who were interested in the whole thing, so I had to protect them from the police, which is another role that I played alone, to make sure that they are not implicated in this because the police wouldn't stop pursuing me or pushing me or want to crack me, then I had to defend those young men in my street. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very, very much. I just want to express on our behalf our deep appreciation to you for being willing again to expose your pain and anguish in this public way. We are very grateful. Thank you very much. MR SONO You are welcome. MR SONO EXCUSED MR UNTERHALTER Thank you, Chairperson. Mrs Shabalala, are you the mother of Siboniso Shabalala? MRS SHABALALA Yes. MR UNTERHALTER Mrs Shabalala, I want to take you back to certain events that occurred in November 1988. Was your son Siboniso friendly with Lolo Sono? MRS SHABALALA Yes, that is correct. MR UNTERHALTER Can you tell us of what happened on the 13th of November 1988? Did certain persons come looking for your son Siboniso? MRS SHABALALA On the 13th November I had gone to church. Siboniso's father was at home at the time, and I arrived at home around about seven in the evening. When I got home, Siboniso's father explained to me that there were certain young men, two of them, who had a box of matches with, and at the back of this box there was Siboniso's name as well as his address, and Lolo Sono's address and Lolo's name. As he was still explaining to me, he told me that this young men came twice to our place, and as he was still explaining I heard a knock at the door and I saw two young men. Mr Shabalala said to these young men, my boys, sit down, I am Siboniso's father and this is Siboniso's mother. I want you to explain as to why you are after Siboniso, does he owe you any money? They said to us, aren't we aware that today Siboniso was supposed to leave, they were coming from Winnie Mandela's place, and Siboniso was supposed to cross the borders and we didn't know anything about that, and they said we were delaying them. They stood up and went out at that moment. But Siboniso was not at home at that time. After about half past nine, Mr Shabalala went to Lolo's place. And when he got there, he asked Lolo's father as to whether these young men also came to his place and that they had his address, and Lolo's father said, they had already taken Lolo. He had been assaulted by the members of the Mandela Football Club. And Mr Shabalala came back to me and explained what he had been told by Mr Sono. I was very surprised by this explanation, but I nevertheless asked, I said Winnie Mandela is involved in politics and how did she get involved with my son? And Mr Shabalala said, he didn't know, he could offer me no explanation. I think Siboniso came at about ten or eleven that very same evening. He was from a birthday party, and when he arrived, his father called him and told him that these young men said they would return. He sat Siboniso down and explained. I was present when he talked to Siboniso. He told Siboniso about the young men who were looking for him beforehand, and Siboniso didn't seem to know anything about those young men. He didn't seem to be aware of anything that could possibly make them look for him, and he kept on denying his knowledge of the young men. And, as a mother, I said to Siboniso, I think we should take you away because Mr Sono had told us that Lolo had been assaulted, but Siboniso refused and said he will remain at home that particular night and he was waiting for those two young men to return. The following morning I went to Siboniso and asked him as to what we were going to do with this matter and he was sleeping on top of the bed, he wasn't inside his blanket, and he said he was going to wait for Winnie's people because if he ran away that would not help him in any manner because Lolo had already been assaulted. And I asked Siboniso as to what relationship they had, or he had with Winnie, but he could not tell me. His father also asked him, and he said he was not prepared to run away, he was going to remain and wait for the young men and hear as to what they wanted from him. And he said whenever they come he would go with them and go to wherever Lolo was. And we asked him as to whether he knew where Lolo was. Then he said, if you say Lolo was taken by Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's people, then probably I will be taken there as well. And we left for work. When we came back Siboniso was not at home. I looked for his shoes and his belongings as to whether he had taken anything with. I saw that all his shoes were there except for one pair of shoes, and I realised that probably the pair that he was wearing, even the clothes that were missing were the ones that he was wearing the previous day. In the evening when his father came, I explained to him and his father went to Mr Sono's place and explained to Mr Sono what had happened. And Mr Shabalala said he had decided that he should go and report the matter. He duly went to report. My son disappeared on the 14th, that's when we got home and discovered he wasn't there. And on the 15th Mr Shabalala went to the Meadowlands police station, and that's where he reported the matter. He came back and filled me in as to what had happened. And later on police arrived from Protea police station, and they said that he should report to the Protea police station. He went there. When he came back I asked him as to what had happened, and he said they asked with regard to my son and said he should submit a statement. Two days thereafter the police came to my place. They searched the whole place. They asked us as to whether Siboniso was involved in politics, and we said we were not a politically aware family. We had nothing to do with politics, but he was friends with Sono's son, that is our son. And time lapsed after the police had come to investigate. They kept on calling Mr Shabalala to the police station. And on this instance, that was in February, I think it was in 1989, when I was inside a taxi on the date I've mentioned, I was listening to the news and mention was made that at Meadowlands there are two young men missing, Siboniso Shabalala, as well as Lolo Sono. That's when I realised that he had actually disappeared and it was well-known that he had disappeared and he was a member of the Mandela Football Club. Mr Shabalala used to go to the newspaper reporters, Star, Sowetan, and he would give our son's photo to the reporters, and that our son had disappeared. After a few days then I had heard this over the radio, a certain Mr Dempsey came to my place and he produced his identification that he was from Protea police station. He showed me a photo and asked me as to whether I knew the person on the photo, and I said this is my son. I identified him positively. He said he was going to take me on that particular day. I agreed because he had shown me a photo of my son. He came back at about ten o'clock. He took me, that is Mr Dempsey, together with Mr Sono, his wife wasn't there, we went to Diepkloof mortuary. When we got to the mortuary, they opened up the shelves. They showed us some of the young men who had disappeared and they wanted us to identify them as to whether there were any people that we knew, but I couldn't get my son, and Mr Sono couldn't get his son as well. We came back without having identified any of them. I explained this to my HASSEN, and my HASSEN was surprised by this whole turn of events. After that we heard the stories doing the rounds that Stompie had died, and that there were certain members of the Football Club who had been killed. It's only then that we were made aware of the goings-on at Winnie's house and we started reading newspapers. At some stage they were called to the High Court. They submitted statements. Immediately after submitting the statements, Mr Shabalala said [Tape ends.] MRS SHABALALA ... he thought that they would see Winnie Mandela, that they did not, and they said they were not allowed to speak to Winnie. It was said that they were not fit to speak to Winnie, and Dempsey accompanied them through the passages, taking them out. There were two policemen outside and the other one had jumped over the fence in order to gain entry. They said they were looking for Shadrack - Shadrack was my HASSEN. I told them that Shadrack was late. They asked me as to when he had died. I told him that he died on the 12th of August. They said they were very sorry to hear that and they showed me a photo. They asked me as to whether I could identify the person on the photo. I said, yes, I said, this is my son. DR BORAINE MRS SHABALALA Yes, they said that they wanted my son. They had been sent by Winnie Mandela and they were going to cross the border and go to outside countries. DR BORAINE Now, is it correct that the last time you saw your son, was on the 14th of November 1988? MRS SHABALALA Yes, that is correct. DR BORAINE And is it also correct that the last time that you spoke to your son, was during that very short telephone conversation? MRS SHABALALA Yes. DR BORAINE Mrs Shabalala, you have said on a number of occasions that you would like to speak to Mrs Mandela, but that you were prevented from doing so. What is it that you wanted to ask Mrs Mandela? MRS SHABALALA DR BORAINE Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Hanif? MR VALLY MRS SHABALALA Yes, it was Dempsey who uttered that statement. MR VALLY Was there anyone else with Dempsey? MRS SHABALALA MR VALLY ...[indistinct] the other policeman who was with Dempsey at the time when the statement was made? MRS SHABALALA It was Moodla, I think it was Moodla or Moodly. MR VALLY What did Moodly say? MRS SHABALALA Moodly? MR VALLY Yes. Did he say anything? MRS SHABALALA MR VALLY Tell me, did the police say anything about whether they ever questioned Mrs Madikezela-Mandela about this issue? MRS SHABALALA No. MR VALLY Did you ask them that? MRS SHABALALA The police? MR VALLY MRS SHABALALA Yes. MR VALLY And, according to you, you said: "Mr Dempsey said: "What nonsense is this, we have told you your son is dead"? MRS SHABALALA Ja. MR VALLY INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON [No English translation.] MR VALLY MRS SHABALALA MR VALLY MRS SHABALALA Winnie knows Siboniso as well as Lolo - deep down inside of her, she knows that she knows those people, because if she did not know them during this period of 9 years she should have done something. MR VALLY ...[inaudible] Mrs-Madikezela Mandela yourself on this issue? MRS SHABALALA MR VALLY ...[inaudible] member of the football club to the best of your knowledge? MRS SHABALALA Not that I was aware of, I heard it over the radio. MR VALLY Thank you very much, Mrs Shabalala. MRS SHABALALA Thanks. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA So that was the report which your son was given about Lolo? MRS SHABALALA MR VALLY MRS SHABALALA They said Winnie and her people were there, Winnie and her people. MR VALLY MRS SHABALALA MR VALLY ...[indistinct] they were sent by her? MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA [No sound.] MRS SHABALALA Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA How long after the 14th of November 1988 did you receive a call from Lolo - I mean from your son, sorry? MRS SHABALALA Siboniso phoned the same day, that is on the 14th, and he phoned on the 15th. MR SEMENYA ...[indistinct] was calling? MRS SHABALALA No, and the line got cut off whilst I was still speaking to him. MR SEMENYA Again in your evidence you seem to say that - in fact you stated as a fact, that, because of what was said in the media, Winnie killed these boys. MRS SHABALALA Yes, that is so. MR SEMENYA Winnie had killed them? MRS SHABALALA Yes, she did kill them, just like Stompie. MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] she killed Stompie? MRS SHABALALA I was not there but they were within the same group. it was the football club. MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] killed your son? MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA MRS SHABALALA Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA Are you able to ...[inaudible] where you saw her threaten people? MRS SHABALALA CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA Whoever purported to have been sent by Mrs Madikezela-Mandela was not correct. There was not such instruction. MRS SHABALALA MR SEMENYA ... [inaudible] Mrs Madikezela Mandela knows your son, have you ever seen them together at any point? MRS SHABALALA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. UNKNOWN No questions. CHAIRPERSON Any questions from the panel here? UNKNOWN: CHAIRPERSON UNKNOWN I simply have one question to ask. Are you aware of the application for amnesty that Mr Richardson has made? MRS SHABALALA UNKNOWN Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Hlengiwe? MS MKHIZE MS MKHIZE MRS SHABALALA With regard as to why they could tell that to a total stranger, I could say they had the lever because they were with their mother and they were sent by their mother, Winnie. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible]. Thank you. MR NTSEBEZA MRS SHABALALA They said where he had been buried, he had probably been buried deep below others or right underneath and it would have been expensive to exhume him. MR NTSEBEZA Did they tell you as to whether they knew where he was buried? MRS SHABALALA They said if I wanted to know I should go to the Pretoria police station, but I never went there. MR NTSEBEZA Maybe I should be asking this question from the police. CHAIRPERSON But we also want you to know that no matter what, that we as members of the TRC do sympathise with you, and we pass our condolences to your families, because no matter how they died, but you have lost your loved ones. And we as the TRC people are trying to rehabilitate the people and let them get through the pain that they have experienced. MRS SHABALALA CHAIRPERSON As soon as Richardson renders his testimony, we believe that there will be more information forthcoming. We shall therefore let you know in due course. We thank all of you very much. You may stand down. MRS SHABALALA EXCUSED Mr John Morgan. Thank you very much. Order please. CHAIRPERSON Mr Morgan, good afternoon, which language will you use? MR MORGAN CHAIRPERSON Will you please stand up? JOHN MORGAN (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MS SITA CHAIRPERSON Can you say that a little more slowly? MS SITA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MS SITA Okay, Mr Morgan, when did you first meet Mrs Mandela? MR MORGAN From there when she came back from Brandfort I asked her for employment - if I could work for her as I knew her very well. ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MS SITA Where did you start working for Mrs Mandela? MR MORGAN In Orlando West I was working for Mrs Mandela. MS SITA What type of work did you do, sir? MR MORGAN I was a driver. MS SITA Mr Morgan, do you have any knowledge of the Mandela United Football Club? MR MORGAN CHAIRPERSON Order, please. MS SITA Mr Morgan, do you know how the football club started? MR MORGAN No, I do not know. MS SITA Do you know about the activities of the football club members? MR MORGAN First and foremost, I will say we left for Southern Life in Commissioner Street to fetch the jersey uniforms for the football club, and we came back with them and she took them to Cape Town to Mr Mandela. She came back with the word that Mandela was so happy and accepted the club. MS SITA ...[inaudible] you went to the Southern Life. With whom did you go to the Southern Life, Mr Morgan? MR MORGAN There is a store right at the ground floors. When you enter towards your left, there is a shop where we fetched them from. MS SITA Mr Morgan, who was with you when you went to the Southern Life? MR MORGAN Mrs Mandela was present. MS SITA Mr Morgan, where did the members of the football club stay, do you know? MR MORGAN MS SITA Was Mrs Mandela involved in this football club? MR MORGAN I do not know. CHAIRPERSON No English translation. MR MORGAN No English translation. MS SITA Was Mrs Winnie Mandela involved in this football club? MR MORGAN What do you mean: "taking part"? Can you please explain. MS SITA I want to know what was her involvement with this football club, sir? MR MORGAN She was the leader, the owner of the club, because she is the one who started it. MS SITA Do you have any knowledge of a Disciplinary Committee within the football club? MR MORGAN It was Jerry Richardson and others who were comrades. MS SITA What did they do at this Disciplinary Committee, sir? MR MORGAN MS SITA Sir, can you tell us about the events leading to the death of Stompi. Who told you to go to the "Methodist manse" to fetch the boys? MR MORGAN Richardson said at first that Mrs Mandela said I should take the minibus and go fetch those boys from the Methodist Centre, and I went to Winnie to find out if she had really said that. And I took the bus after she said yes - and with the other comrades. MS SITA Who was with you in this vehicle, sir? MR MORGAN MS SITA After you collected these boys, where did you take them, sir? MR MORGAN MS SITA And what did she tell them, sir? MR MORGAN She said they should go to a certain room in the back next to the jacuzzi, and indeed they went in, and she was there as well. And Richardson as a prime leader insisted that they should not sit at a certain place because it is her seat. Then he said: "Who is Mrs Mandela because she is younger than me"? They got inside, the four of them. The other comrades formed a circle, and they were inside that circle. MS SITA Did you see Stompie again, sir? MR MORGAN Yes, the following day I saw him. I found him in a deformed state. His face was as round as a football, and I tried to help him drink some coffee and feed him bread as he was not in a position to help himself. And I felt pity for the boy. MS SITA And when was the next time you saw Stompie, sir? MR MORGAN I also saw him on the third day, and I found that he was in critical conditions, and Doctor Asvat said to Mrs Mandela - Mrs Mandela asked Asvat to enlist help to the boy and assist him medically, and Asvat refused and said: "The boy should be sent to hospital". MS SITA ...[inaudible] death of Maxwell Madondo? MR MORGAN MS SITA When you say "we", yourself and who else, sir? (end of tape) MR MORGAN MS SITA Sir, do you know Koeki Zwani? MR MORGAN Yes, I do know him, I do know Koeki Zwani. MS SITA Can you tell ...[intervention] MR MORGAN MS SITA MR MORGAN She was a helper in the house, cleaning around but And her family came to my house to find out as to what happened to her and I told them exactly what happened, that it was said she will be taken home and to no avail. MS SITA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Hanif? There are some others who will throw questions to you. MR VALLY Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Morgan, you were one of the accused in the matter of the kidnapping and assault of the four youngsters, is that correct? MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct. MR VALLY Were you convicted? MR MORGAN Yes, I was convicted for a year and that I should not be found guilty or - I was suspended in other words for one year and I went back home, I never committed any atrocities whatsoever to date. MR VALLY What were you convicted of? MR MORGAN They said I was an accomplice. MR VALLY Accomplice to what? MR MORGAN Kidnapping. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Kidnapping and murder. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY MR MORGAN I am aware of that. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes, I do. MR VALLY The basic thrust of this article is that you lied in your court case, is that correct? MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct. MR VALLY I first need to ask you why you lied? MR MORGAN I was trying to defend Mrs Mandela and protect Mrs Mandela because she was my superior, she was my employer, and I was trying by all means to protect her. MR VALLY Mrs Mandela when we questioned her in the Section 29 enquiry, she said that you were not employed as a driver by her, that you were merely a neighbour who helped her from time to time. What is your response to that? MR MORGAN MR VALLY On page 13 of the second enquiry, the question was: "Do you know who John Morgan is"? The answer: "Yes, I know, John Morgan is my neighbour". Question: "Was he ever employed by you as a driver?" Her answer: "He was never officially employed by me as a driver. He came home and assisted me whenever it was possible for him to assist". Would you like to comment on these answers? MR MORGAN MR VALLY How long were you working for them? MR MORGAN MR VALLY More than 10, more than 20? 2 years? Can you give me a definite period? MR MORGAN Around 10 years. MR VALLY When I asked Mrs Madikizela-Mandela if you were ever employed by her, she said: "I have never employed Morgan, I have no facilities to employ anybody". MR MORGAN She employed me and she had a Volkswagen van - bakkie. MR VALLY When I asked whether you were employed elsewhere, she said: "I do not know if he was employed elsewhere He came home like all the other neighbours, and whenever I requested him to do something for me he did it". MR MORGAN No, she had employed me. There was one time when we had a fight with Winnie, and she told me she will be discharging me, and she laughed - even Mandela laughed himself, she will never refute all of that. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Who gave it to me? Which one are you referring to? MR VALLY The one I read to you earlier where the headlines said: "How I Lied to Save Winnie" MR MORGAN You mean this one? MR VALLY ...[inaudible] MR MORGAN What about it? MR VALLY MR MORGAN Please ask me. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes, it is true. MR VALLY Secondly, immediately thereafter you say: "She was not in Brandfort on December the 29th 1988 when Stompie and three other youths were assaulted in a back room of her house in Diepkloof but was present and led the assault on them", is that true? INTERPRETER The speaker is too fast, the interpreter cannot keep pace. MR VALLY MR MORGAN She was at home. MR VALLY "But was present and led the assault on them". Do you confirm that this is the truth? MR MORGAN MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes, that was not true, it was a blatant lie. MR VALLY Did you decide to lie on your own? Were you asked to lie? MR MORGAN I was not asked to lie. I told myself. MR VALLY Let me very briefly tell you what you initially said in the statement to the police which you now tell us is the truth, and this is a statement that you say you - did you make it freely and voluntarily? MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY MR MORGAN No. MR VALLY And you say it is all true and correct? Do you say it is true and correct, this statement? MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY And then when you said in court that the statement was not true because it had been forced out of you, that was a lie? MR MORGAN Yes, that is so. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY Can you tell us who these people were? MR MORGAN MR VALLY MR MORGAN MR VALLY Do you remember who asked you to drive to the Manse? MR MORGAN Yes, Richardson asked me and I went back to my employer to ask if it was true what I was supposed to do, and she confirmed it, and she said yes. I took the minibus and I drove through. MR VALLY Was Richardson with you? MR MORGAN Yes, Richardson was with me, and some other boys. MR VALLY Do you know why you were going to the Manse? MR MORGAN She had said we should go fetch the boys only. I was doing as instructed. MR VALLY Do you know why you had to fetch the boys? MR MORGAN I do not know. The reason was to fetch those boys only. I did not even get out from the car and pull them outside from the house into - from the church into the car, I did not do any of that, I was just in the car. MR VALLY Were there any women with you in the bus? MR MORGAN MR VALLY Was Katiza Cebekhulu with you? MR MORGAN Yes, he was present as well. MR VALLY Was Slash with you? MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY Was Killer with you? MR MORGAN MR VALLY You say you stayed in the bus when you arrived at the Methodist Manse. Did everyone else go inside? MR MORGAN Yes, everybody went inside. I was the only one left in the bus. MR VALLY How long were they inside the Manse before they came out? MR MORGAN Approximately 5 minutes. MR VALLY How many youths did they come out with? The people whom you took there - Richardson was there ... [intervention] MR MORGAN There were four. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] If you can remember who these people were that were brought back with you? MR MORGAN I remember Megwe. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] MR MORGAN Yes, he was there. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] MR MORGAN Yes, he was there amongst the other boys. MR VALLY Was Mono with? MR MORGAN MR VALLY What did you do? You then said that you drove back to the house ... [intervention] MR MORGAN I did nothing as they were busy toyi-toyiing, Richardson said: "Leave, we are done", and I drove back to Diepkloof and I parked the bus at the back, and they got inside in the back room and I found them already in the room. MR VALLY ...[inaudible] room? MR MORGAN MR VALLY Who slapped Stompie first? MR MORGAN Mrs Mandela did that - Winifred Nomzamo Mandela. MR VALLY Do you know the names of anyone else who took part in the assaults on the four youths? MR MORGAN MR VALLY ... [inaudible] How long did they last? MR MORGAN I left even before the assault was over or stopped. MR VALLY How long were you there for? MR MORGAN I was there for about a half an hour. MR VALLY In your article you said that the evidence given at the trial by Gazi and Mono was largely correct, do you still maintain that? MR MORGAN Yes. You were referring to me or to those two? MR VALLY ... [inaudible] in the article you said that the evidence given by those two - that is Tebiso Mono and Kenny Gaze - was largely correct. The word you used was: "essentially correct". MR MORGAN Yes, it was true. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes, that is true. MR VALLY Do you still remember this? MR MORGAN Yes, I do remember that. MR VALLY Was this what you saw the next day when you returned after you left the first day? MR MORGAN Yes, I saw that the next day. MR VALLY MR MORGAN MR VALLY ... [inaudible] MR MORGAN MR NTSEBEZA MR MORGAN When he asks me a question I will certainly answer. Even if he asks me the same question three times I will definitely answer him. When he puts a question to me, I will definitely answer. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Do you have the possibilities of an advance? MR VALLY "The boys in the football club were rough." What do you mean by this? MR MORGAN MR VALLY One of the other things you mention in your statement is that Is that correct? MR MORGAN That is correct, and there were rooms that were occupied by them, some were at my house like Vuyisa Shabalala, who stayed at my house and I even taught her to drive. MR VALLY You say in your statement that the house of Mrs Madikezela-Mandela was burnt down because of the activities of Mandela United Football Club. Can you elaborate and tell us what activities? MR MORGAN Because her boys, who were so much alike to lions, would assault people and fight people and the whole school went back to burn the house and I was there, I was not working that day. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] you say that there were people who were trained by MK members in the country - the people who were being trained, were you referring to Mandela United Football Club members? MR MORGAN No, I was not referring to them ... [inaudible] by the very cadres - the other guys who came from outside were taught by the ones who were inside here in the country. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] MR MORGAN Even myself, I was taught by the very same cadres to handle the grenade and G5 and Makarov and Takorov and MK47. I used to be in possession of such weapons and I knew even how to operate them. MR VALLY In your statement you said the weapons were kept at the house, which house are you referring to? MR MORGAN MR VALLY ... [inaudible] in Orlando West was burnt down? MR MORGAN She left for Diepkloof after that. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] at Diepkloof Extension as well? MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY You say that Mrs Mandela was like a commander to these youths, what do you mean by that? MR MORGAN She was the leader. Whatever I wanted I would go to her to request as my superior or as my employer. MR VALLY The issue of a Disciplinary Committee has been touched on with you. I need to get some clarity on this issue. Are you aware of youths being brought before the Disciplinary Committee based on allegations that they were informers? MR MORGAN CHAIRPERSON Quiet, please. MR VALLY INTERPRETER MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY Do you know who the Chairperson of the Disciplinary Committee? Do you know at any stage who ...[intervention] MR MORGAN No, I will not be present. They will go to that headquarters Lusaka - I did not care as to what they were doing. MR VALLY Where is Lusaka - besides Lusaka in Zambia? MR MORGAN MR VALLY ...[inaudible] that was at the back of the house? MR MORGAN It was a shack. MR VALLY And this was in Diepkloof Extension? MR MORGAN No, in Orlando West 8115, Makane Street. MR VALLY When a person was brought before a Disciplinary Committee, was Mrs Madikezela-Mandela present at these enquiries? MR MORGAN In actual fact they would address these young men and squeeze the scrotum, and she will come and peep and go back again. MR VALLY Did she participate in these Disciplinary Committees? MR MORGAN Not herself in person, but the boys would. MR VALLY What sort of punishment would this Disciplinary Committee mete out? MR MORGAN I remember one day boys were brought - you know where they were fetched? I was the one who was driving, they were fetched from Orlando West ...[inaudible] Uhmzumshlope and we took them, and they were undressed and they were burnt to a high degree. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] burnt, burnt with fire, with petrol, with hot water, or how were they burnt? MR MORGAN Burnt with fire - fire can burn. MR VALLY How many ... ? [inaudible] MR MORGAN Two. MR VALLY And do you remember when this was? MR MORGAN MR VALLY When you say these two youths were burnt, were they burnt to torture them or were they burnt until they died? MR MORGAN No, they did not die. They were assaulted and were burnt. They had raped, and they kept saying: "You are so much problematic in the community, you keep raping". MR VALLY You have been charged and acquitted for assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm in the assault and mutilation of the Makanda brothers in May 1987, do you recall that case? MR MORGAN Yes, I had done nothing. They were referred to a number AAC. They resided in Westcliff Extension. They would arrest them in my garage. MR VALLY MR MORGAN MR VALLY Mrs Mandela at some stage moved to Diepkloof Extension as well, did she not? MR MORGAN No, what for? She had gone to Diepkloof to do what? MR VALLY After her house was burnt down in Orlando West in July 1988, where did she move to? MR MORGAN MR VALLY The question is: "Did she leave the house in Orlando West for another house? MR MORGAN Yes, she left the house because the house was completely destroyed as it was set alight and she left completely. MR VALLY ... [inaudible] MR MORGAN She went to Diepkloof. MR VALLY Thank you. MR VALLY I need to ask you ... [intervention] CHAIRPERSON Order, please. MR VALLY You said in your statement that at some point you took Katiza to the ANC offices in Sauer Street and you left Katiza with Winnie because she told you to leave him there? MR MORGAN MR VALLY ... [inaudible] trial? MR VALLY ... [inaudible] during the trial? During the trial where you were charged together with ... [intervention] MR MORGAN Yes, it was the one. MR VALLY MR MORGAN He did not go to court, he just sat on the steps, and disappeared subsequently. MR VALLY How long was he staying at your house before you took him to the ANC offices? MR MORGAN Almost a year - as a child who is my friend as well. MR VALLY Why did you take him to Mrs Madikezela-Mandela at the offices in Sauer Street if he was your friend? MR MORGAN MR VALLY You did say in your statement that when you left Katiza there you were afraid he might be killed? Were you aware of this possible danger before? MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY Why did you still take him there if you were afraid he was going to be killed? MR MORGAN You mean him? MR VALLY ... [inaudible] MR MORGAN What happened to him? Repeat yourself please? MR VALLY My question is this: "If you were afraid that he would be killed when you took him to Mrs Madikezela-Mandela at the ANC offices in Sauer Street, why did you do so? MR MORGAN That was what I was thinking, that we are going to enlist some help from Mrs Mandela, and that is all. MR VALLY "I approached Mrs Mandela for funds two weeks ago but she refused and directed me to the ANC offices to see Dali Mpofu. He said my case was not important and refused to give me money." Now this was money for your appeal, so she refused to finance your appeal; thereafter you made the statements to the newspaper. If I put it to you that you were trying to take revenge on Mrs Madikezela-Mandela because she refused to pay for your appeal, what would your response be? MR MORGAN Okay. She refused to help us, giving us money, but we eventually got lawyers and I had my own lawyer attending, Mr Greg Nolte (?), who came from Simon Street. And she is not the one who referred me to him, I am the one who approached him. MR VALLY MR MORGAN Yes, we realised that she wanted to protect her own life and defend her own life, but, as for us, we will be arrested. Then we decided to tell the truth as it was. MR VALLY "I am convinced that Stompie has not been killed, I do not believe that that is supposed to be his body. My driver, the old man John Morgan, who was detained and shown the so-called body of that boy, he came back and told us he could not believe what he was shown by the Security Branch - the body of Stompie which was not Stompie at all. Did this happen? Did you make this statement? MR MORGAN Come again, please. MR VALLY Do you want me to read this quote again? MR MORGAN Yes. MR VALLY "I am convinced that Stompie has not been killed. I do not believe that that is supposed to be his body. My driver, the old man John Morgan, who was detained and shown the so-called body of that boy, he came back and told us he could not believe what he was shown by the Security Branch - the body of Stompie which was not Stompie at all. MR MORGAN MR VALLY MR MORGAN MR VALLY Do you know if Mrs Madikezela-Mandela knew the names of the members of her football club - the full names, the proper names? MR MORGAN MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Can you tell me ... [intervention] Order, please. Hanif? MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON How much time do you want? MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON: Yes? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, we indebted for the indulgence granted to us to peruse the statements. Chairperson, my instructions, however, to register a complaint that the nature of the allegations which are being held against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela are hurtful in the extreme. That they are uttered almost in a cavalier manner and in a jocular sense is to be regretted. That the processes would indicate the limitation of testing the correctness of some of his versions is also limiting in our ability to demonstrate the truthfulness of the allegations which are made or otherwise, but most importantly when we look at the documents that have been given to us now, they are not the same. By way of illustration, you would find the statement of the witness now which reads and has a vehemence which are not in another section of the statement. We do not know whether in the light of the seriousness of these allegations, whether we're not even entitled to be given the actual statements of these witnesses. The evidence as we hear it makes serious allegations about matters for which Jerry Richardson has applied for amnesty. Surely we would have been entitled to obtain documents of this amnesty to understand how Jerry Richardson owns up to that particular event. We do not have the statement and it is expected of us to meet and challenge the statements in the manner that is, with respect, very compromising. Beyond that point I will proceed notwithstanding. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] have you got any response to that because I have been given to understand that the statements, and your people have reiterated to me, I was going to raise your point because we made it this morning, that the statement that you were given is the same statement that our people have, minus the address. Now I didn't want to read it actually because I don't want to appear to be remonstrating. I don't want to remonstrate. I have now said that we are going to have to ensure that yourself and your team actually give a receipt for all the statements that they claim they have given you, so that we want to make sure that you do in fact have the statements. We don't want you or your client to operate under a handicap of any sort, and my information is that the statements were given, and in a sense what you were saying just now, you see, I mean, you speak about the statements not being the same, now how do you do that if you are comparing one statement with a non(?)-existing statement? Because you say you received the one only now. I'm a legal person, but I don't want to go into that, what I am saying is I do not want you to operate under any sort of handicap, and I will, I am insisting now that the TRC people make sure that all the documents that they are going to be alluding to will be available to yourself, and that you provide them with a receipt for having been given those statements, but I am pleased that you will in fact go ahead. I would also say in that it's very difficult to keep, I mean this particular witness has a particular way of speaking, and I would agree that one has to be careful that we are not facetious, but that is in a way the idiom in which he is speaking, and I am not able to - I would probably have to be interrupting him every other sentence. I note the point you make and would want to say again, I mean, that I do not, none of us here wants at all to have you operating under the disadvantage, 1 of not having the statements, and 2 that serious allegations are made in a flippant manner. And I would, eBaba [addressing Mr Morgan] the attorney is complaining that some of the things or the serious allegations that you have in your statement, you are saying them in a very jocular manner. Please, if you can, try to, we're not saying you must restrain yourself in any manner, but please when you answer some of the questions, please, you should look quite serious, because these are quite serious allegations. Do not make them into jokes. MR SEMENYA Mr Morgan, on your own, in your own words, you are a self-confessed liar, is that right? MR MORGAN You are lying. It's you who's lying. I'm telling the truth. MR SEMENYA You deny that you have confessed to lying? MR MORGAN Yes, I did say that. MR SEMENYA You say you have confessed to being a liar? MR MORGAN No, I'm not a confessed liar, but I did explain that I told lies in order to try and protect Mrs Mandela. MR SEMENYA And I understand you are saying that you were not guilty for the assault for which you were convicted by a court of law? MR MORGAN I never assaulted anyone, I'm talking about myself now, I never assaulted anyone. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN That is correct. MR SEMENYA And you were given an imprisonment sentence. MR MORGAN That's correct. MR SEMENYA And you're saying today you were convicted incorrectly? MR MORGAN Yes, that's what I'm saying. Because I had gone to fetch those people. I was the driver. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN No, that's not true. That's not true. What she did, she assaulted my daughter, she assaulted my daughter on the buttocks. There's no way that she helped my family out. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN No. She was helping Jerry Richardson, not me. MR SEMENYA Do you remember an interview you had with the City Press people? MR MORGAN Yes, I do. MR SEMENYA In particular you had an interview with a Mapule Sibandla. Do you recall that? MR MORGAN I have just spoken to her recently. Yes, I do remember that one. MR SEMENYA And to that interview came Derek Luthanyi. MR MORGAN Who's that? MR SEMENYA And who was with Mapule Sibandla? MR MORGAN And what did that person say? MR SEMENYA Do you remember that? MR MORGAN Yes, I do. MR SEMENYA You recall that the interview was scheduled for 14h30? MR MORGAN Where? At two, where? Now, at my place or in Orlando? MR SEMENYA ... that where was the interview conducted with Mapule Sibanda? MR MORGAN At my place. Orlando West, 8060 Migwa Street. MR SEMENYA What did you say to her? MR MORGAN I said I didn't want to comment because if I speak to the press they would print other things or misquote me. I refused to speak to her. MR SEMENYA Were you not confronted about the allegations that you would know where the children were dumped? MR MORGAN Definitely not. I don't know what you're talking about. MR SEMENYA Do you recall that you told them that the information you gave was on a belief that you were going to be given money? MR MORGAN I said I don't want to speak to any newspaper reporters. I haven't come to play, I want money. There are many ways of getting money, so I said if she gives me the money, the money would be mine. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN Yes, I did say that. If you want to get money, you can do that or say that. MR SEMENYA Sunday Times pays for your appeal. You then make the plans and you tell them a story. Is that correct? MR MORGAN No, I spoke what happened. MR SEMENYA What do you mean by making plans to get money? MR MORGAN To earn a living. I wouldn't go around talking about my life for free. If people want to know about my life, especially newspaper reporters, I would tell them that they must pay me for my talking. MR SEMENYA So now I understand you implicitly. For money you will tell the story, you will not be telling a story unless there's money involved, that's how you make your living? MR MORGAN No, she never gave me money. I wasn't given any money for that matter. MR SEMENYA ... noise outside of the cars, I lost your answer there, sorry. MR MORGAN I do hear what you're saying, but the fact that I spoke because I received money is not true, I never received any money in return for speaking. Whoever comes to me and says he wants my story I just say "pay" in order to avoid having to talk. MR SEMENYA With the greatest of respect, the type of things you're saying are very, very serious and I think they deserve to be treated with seriousness as well. Would you agree with me? MR MORGAN I don't agree with you if you think I'm playing, why do you think I'm playing? I'm not playing here. MR SEMENYA I want to give you a document which emanated from you while you were in prison. Sorry, I, I - [intervention] CHAIRPERSON Where is my copy? (laughter) MR MORGAN This is not my handwriting. MR SEMENYA Do you see that letter? MR MORGAN Yes, I do. MR SEMENYA Are you referred to as Motho, M-O-T-H-O? MR MORGAN Yes. MR SEMENYA ... that appears on the second page. Do you see that? MR MORGAN Yes, I see what is written here. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN Yes. MS HASSEN Excuse me, Doctor. Is it possible for us to get a copy as well of the statement. CHAIRPERSON Can you just say who you are. MS HASSEN The surname is Hassen, the first name is Hasiena, I'm part representative of Mr Morgan. CHAIRPERSON Can we have a copy, please. There is. I'm sorry to have not paid attention to you. MR SEMENYA It reads, "It has come to my knowledge that the time is ripe to see the future of this case, the advantages and the disadvantages". Would you have said this to anybody. MR MORGAN No. MR SEMENYA "After looking through in this case of ours, I have come up with a solution. There's a worrying evidence, the tape and the young boy Katiza. If the young man Katiza don't appear before the high court, we have won and conquered the enemy. We must save the name of the Party as well as your personal dignity and faith". Do you recall saying these things? MR MORGAN MR SEMENYA MS HASSEN With respect, Mr Chairperson, my client denies having written this documentation and I don't think it should be pursued at this forum. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I was just trying to find out because he has said that this is not his letter. Can I find out? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, maybe let me read him the rules of the Hearing as I understand them. "The procedures for the hearing, as we are told, the panel conducting the hearing may in its sole discretion allow hearsay evidence to be adduced". Now, this suggests that we have been listening to a lot of hearsay. The instructions that I have is that this document was sent to client through a courier from the witness. I have never purported to say the document was written by the witness. Unless, if it does not fall within admissible parameters of these procedures, then I will stop. CHAIRPERSON Let me, I mean, I would want just to find out from him. Mr Morgan, do you remember writing this letter. We do not say that this is your handwriting. MR MORGAN No, I totally disagree. Besides the handwriting itself, I've never written any letter. CHAIRPERSON Is there any person that you sent or a courier to go and speak to Mrs Mandela? MR MORGAN No, not me. MR SEMENYA I didn't hear that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I was asking that we're not speaking about the fact that he had written the letter himself, but did he dictate such a letter to somebody? His answer is no. Would he know whether he had asked someone to convey a message of this kind, and his answer is no. Now I would like to be helped. Where do you want to go from there because he has denied that this is his letter, it's not written - Hanif, can you assist us as to what we do or we probably would have to be consulting but I do not myself, I mean, I'm just a lay person and I thought of it that when the witness says it is not his letter, he didn't send anyone to say anything of this kind, unable to establish in any other way that it is linked to him. MR SEMENYA No, Chairperson, all I was attempting to do is to see whether he can admit to any of the contents of the statement. So far, the first three paragraphs he has denied. He might very well deny everything or he might just say, 'This I recognise'. CHAIRPERSON Well, I mean [indistinct] - I think let him do it the way he wants to do it, which is to read those letters, those paragraphs, but I must say that I find it odd. If someone says it's not my letter, I have not sent anybody to say any of these things, it seems that he is going to be saying no, no, no. It may be because you have a knowledge of some lines that he may agree to. MS HASSEN Mr Chair, I would object on my client's behalf as to the reading out of this statement as to whether my client agrees to any particular paragraphs herein. Is it purported to be that my client is going to be asked whether he wrote this particular thing or if whether he accepts that he had said this particular thing to "Dear Mama", meaning Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela. Is he going to be asked after every paragraph whether he accepts or denies this? And then I want to know, what is the purpose of this so-called expedition regarding this? I cannot see where it's going to lead this Tribunal. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I would have said that is the commonsense view because if somebody says straight away, it is not my letter, I have not sent anybody, then it seems a futile exercise to want them to go through paragraph by paragraph, of something where one has already said no. MS HASSEN I wonder if Mr Semenya cannot put to the witness that it is his client's version that this letter came from a particular person and ask Mr Morgan to admit or deny that, because it takes us no further dealing with each paragraph of the letter. CHAIRPERSON That is exactly what I wanted to say, but she said it. MR SEMENYA Can I deal with another matter? I really don't understand that one point here says admissible, at another point it is not, but Chairperson I CHAIRPERSON No, no, I think you are misreading us. You produced this document, which would have been, I mean is admissible, that is why you produced it, we allowed it to come through, but the witness you are cross-examining at the present time says categorically it is not his letter, he didn't send anybody to say the kind of things that are said in this letter, and now you want to go through paragraph by paragraph of a letter that is not his, and he's already denied the first three paragraphs, and all I'm trying to say is it may be better to do it this way. MR SEMENYA Mr Chairperson, save to say the witness admits that the name behind the statement is his, I will not take this process any further. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SEMENYA Mr Morgan, it is for the very first time again admitted by the information I have where you speak about people being tortured by having their testes burned. Did you say this version any other time before? MR MORGAN It's not the first time that I've said this. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN You are lying. I said to the very people who are doing this. MR SEMENYA ... time you mentioned this fact to any official structure that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ...(intervention) MR MORGAN No, that is not the case. MR SEMENYA You interrupted me, I don't know CHAIRPERSON [Not interpreted, but admonishment for interruption] MR SEMENYA Which official structure do you tell and when that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was present when people were tortured by having their testes burned? MR MORGAN Can I answer? CHAIRPERSON Yebo, Baba. (Yes, Father). MR MORGAN I said it's not the first time that I mentioned this. I said this, it was on a Sunday morning, and these boys were fetched by me, I think they stay somewhere in Zola, and what was happening in Lusaka, all those things that you are saying I never said. I think you are just guessing. MR SEMENYA ... (indistinct) MR MORGAN I said this is not the first time that I said that, I said it on a Sunday, I don't remember the year. MR SEMENYA Who were you telling that story to? MR MORGAN I was telling Zinzi in the morning, together with her mother. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN No, I never told it to anyone. I told the very perpetrators. MR VALLY If I may just interrupt. I certainly haven't had any meeting or discussion with this witness, until he appeared today. The statements that I have had have been presented to me by our investigative unit. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SEMENYA No , what I was trying to refer to, Chairperson, with respect, was not Mr Vally personally. That the witness has had an opportunity with the TRC to describe the issues. Has he ever mentioned this story or not? MR MORGAN I'm talking today because they said they wanted the truth, and this is where I can speak the truth. How much more can I do? Must I hide? MR SEMENYA ... an answer to my question. MR MORGAN Yes, that is the final answer. MR SEMENYA Have you ever told this version to any newspaper? MR MORGAN No. MR SEMENYA Did you tell this story to Bridgland, the author of the book? MR MORGAN Who's Bridgland? MR SEMENYA The man from the United States who wrote the book. MR MORGAN Who's that? Where is he? MR SEMENYA Did you speak with some person from England who was writing a book, because you seem to be quoted? MR MORGAN No, I've never spoken to anyone who wrote or writes a book. This is the first time I have spoken. I've never spoken to anyone from England. MR SEMENYA Do you know that there is a book in which you are quoted to be saying various things? MR MORGAN No, there's no such book. Not me, maybe another Morgan, but not me. MR SEMENYA So, according to Mr Morgan, Bridgland must have sucked it elsewhere other than from you? MR MORGAN Which book are you referring to? Because this document you have put before me is a fabricated document. I don't know anything about this document. You people are just coming up with things. MR SEMENYA ... know about it? MR MORGAN No, I don't know anything about any book. Which book is that? MR SEMENYA There is a section of your statement where you say the Mandela Football Club used to force girls to do things. Do you recall that aspect of your statement? MR MORGAN MR SEMENYA You deny that you made a statement to the TRC to say the girls were forced to do things? MR MORGAN Yes, I still do say that is a now. MR SEMENYA Now can I show you the original statement that you made. Maybe Mr Vally can give it to us. MR MORGAN Yes, show me. MR VALLY MR SEMENYA Just so that I don't put a document which the witness won't recognise. MR VALLY I'll try and track it down, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Sigat(?), do you have a copy of the statement? MS SITA Yes, Mr Chair, I do have a copy. MR SEMENYA Can we probably use your statement now? MS SITA It is not an original handwritten one, but it is a typed copy, would that suffice? MR VALLY Mr Chair, I'm told that the statement was dictated to our Ms Groenewald, who wrote it down and then typed it out. So it wasn't handwritten by Mr Morgan himself. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but is it available? Is this one in our files? MR VALLY It's the one that is in front of Mr Morgan right now. CHAIRPERSON It is the one in our files? MR VALLY The one in the files is a typed version thereof. CHAIRPERSON But, I mean, we are talking about the same document really. Excellent! MR VALLY It includes his ID number and address. CHAIRPERSON Right you are, yes. MR SEMENYA May the witness be shown the part of the statement where he is alleged on that statement to say the girls were... (intervention) were forced to do things. CHAIRPERSON Can you just help me in the statement to find the portion? MR MORGAN I said that. Yes, it is true, I'm repeating it for the second time again. Must I deny that? No, sir. CHAIRPERSON I mean, let's just wait now. He says he said that. MR MORGAN Yes. MR SEMENYA Mr Morgan, why did you deny just now that you said that? MR MORGAN I never denied it. I did submit a statement. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN ... (indistinct) the students from Dube. MR SEMENYA What things were they forced to do? MR MORGAN They took them into the house. (Speaker requested to speak close to the mike.) MR SEMENYA Were you present when the girls were done the things you describe? MR MORGAN Yes, I was. I was staying there. MR SEMENYA Where was it that these girls were done the things you say? MR MORGAN In Orlando West, Number 81995, Nakane Street, that's where these things happened. MR SEMENYA It was in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house? MR MORGAN That is correct. MR SEMENYA Have you ever gone to report this thing to the police? MR MORGAN No, I never did. Why would I report that? Because I was going to be referred to as an impimpi. MR SEMENYA I was trying to track down your evidence. As far as I have been able to assess, you are the first person who states that they saw Stompie on the fourth day after the date of his assault. Is this factually correct? MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA Where do you see him on the fourth day after the date of his assault? MR MORGAN I saw him in the room. They were wiping off the blood from the wall so that the forensic laboratory wouldn't find any traces of blood. But they came and they found traces of blood. Now I'm asking whether she does have the report from the forensic laboratory. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN I never said that. He didn't want to touch him. Dr Asvat said Stompie was seriously needed to be taken to the hospital. I never said he treated him. MR SEMENYA Did you hear Dr Asvat say Stompie must be taken ... (intervention) MR MORGAN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Morgan, I had asked you to give the attorney a chance to finish his questions so that you would be able to answer properly. Even if you want to answer the question, please do wait for him to finish it off. MR SEMENYA ...asking that you did hear yourself personally Dr Asvat says Stompie must be taken to hospital? MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA Can I show you part of your statement where you make reference to this aspect? MR MORGAN Yes. MR SEMENYA Maybe with the assistance of the lady there, on page four of the typewritten statement. MR MORGAN I do see the statement. MR SEMENYA You say, "I heard from Slash that Dr Asvat had been there". Did you tell this to the investigating officers? MR MORGAN Who's the investigating officer? MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN I never said that ... (rest not translated) MR SEMENYA Do you know where they get this version from? MR MORGAN No, I don't know where they get that from. MR SEMENYA It was definitely not you speaking? MR MORGAN Who? Who said that. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN Yes, I did say that because he was injured. I did utter these words that he should be taken to the hospital because he was seriously injured. His whole face was swollen and his hands were injured. MR SEMENYA Do you say, Slash said Dr Asvat wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital? MR MORGAN Yes, I said it. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN [Side of Tape ends] the following day. MR SEMENYA MR MORGAN MS SIGAT (?): Could you give us a page reference for that, please? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, let me correct that. I think I misread the sentence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Morgan, I'll say that once more to you, please, answer the questions, don't make any jokes out of the situation. MR MORGAN CHAIRPERSON No, just wait for him to ask you a question, and answer that question, please. MR SEMENYA Now something which is very ironic you say is when the boys were brought back from the manse you wanted to sit on a chair and Richard said you shouldn't and you said, but Winnie say is young. Did I hear you say that? MR MORGAN Yes, I did. MR SEMENYA And at the same breath you say you are prepared even to lie to a high court because of your respect for her. MR MORGAN No. MR SEMENYA ... are those approaches. MR MORGAN I never said I was scared of Winnie. If I respected her I would have given her the chair where she wanted to sit. MR SEMENYA So you lied because of your respect for her, amongst others? MR MORGAN No, that's not true. MR SEMENYA The newspaper article says, "I lied to protect her", it's not correct, alright? MR MORGAN That is true. CHAIRPERSON ... find out how much more questioning you still have. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I think in large measure this witness has made a very profound statement, but within the limitations of the times, I do not even anticipate I'll get to the bottom of this witness through cross-examination. Nevertheless I would request that perhaps if, after I have a look at the documents relating to the amnesty by Richardson, I may request that the witness be brought back to deal with that pertinent aspect. CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. MR SEMENYA I will halt therefore my cross-examination at this point. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, I will ask her legal representative whether she has anything that she wants to say. MR MORGAN May I please ask a question? With regard to what Semenya has said, when Semenya says that what I'm saying will get me in trouble, what does he mean by that? What's going to get me into trouble? Tell me, Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Miss Sigat or MS HASSEN Mr Chair, I just have one question for - I just have been told by my learned colleague that he would like to ask questions before I continue, and another learned colleague has interjected at this, so I don't know if we should continue with this, if Mr Chair would allow this. CHAIRPERSON But I thought, I mean, you were the ones who were going to be in response as it were to the cross-examination, isn't that what you people do? Or do you want to hear what the other questions are? MS HASSEN Yes, I would prefer that to be. MR KADES Mr Chairperson, my name is Norman Kades. I appear on behalf of the Asvat family, both the widow and the brother of the deceased, Dr Abu-Baker Asvat. Mr Morgan, did you know the location of Dr Asvat, the late Dr Asvat's surgery? MR MORGAN Yes, I did. MR KADES And I take it from what you've told us already that you knew the late Dr Asvat. MR MORGAN That is correct. MR KADES And was it your custom on occasion to take members of the Football Club and other people on the instructions of Mrs Mandela to Dr Asvat's surgery for treatment. MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct? MR KADES Did you ever take Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat's surgery accompanied by Mrs Mandela? MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct. MR KADES And was that on the 30th of December of 1988? Did you take... (intervention) MR MORGAN I'm not sure about the date. MR KADES Did you take Mrs Mandela and Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat's surgery on more than one occasion? MR MORGAN That is correct. MR KADES Can you recall on how many occasions you took them together to Dr Asvat? MR MORGAN Could have been twice or thrice. We were in Rockville where he had his surgery first, and the second time we went to a place next to the garage but in Rockville as well, and I don't remember the third time, I'm not quite clear. MR KADES The occasions on which you took Katiza Cebekhulu and Mrs Mandela to Dr Asvat, were they one day after the other or was there a period between them ... (intervention)? MR MORGAN No, it was on different occasions. MR KADES MR MORGAN The first time I think it was a few days, but the second time I think a month or two lapsed. MR KADES ... visit on the 30th of December of 1988, which according to the records of the late Dr Asvat indicates that he examined Katiza Cebekhulu, you cannot tell us whether that date, the 30th of December '88, was the first or second occasion? MR MORGAN No, I don't remember. MR KADES Did you go into the surgery with, did you accompany Mrs Mandela and Katiza? MR MORGAN No, they went in, the two of them remained in the car. MR KADES And when they returned from having seen Dr Asvat, do you recall on any of those occasions whether there were any discussions in the motor car concerning that visit to Dr Asvat? MR MORGAN No, I don't remember anything. MR KADES MR MORGAN No, that day I hadn't gone to Dr Asvat's surgery, but I heard at a later stage that he had been murdered, and I went to his funeral, because he's of the Muslim faith and I'm also of the Muslim faith. We went together with Winnie. MR KADES Well, he was buried the very next day, wasn't he? MR MORGAN Yes, that is correct. MR KADES The 27th of January 1989, and he was buried the following day? MR MORGAN I think that is correct. MR KADES Did you accompany anybody or drive anybody, take anybody to Dr Asvat's surgery on the day on which he was killed, the day before the funeral? MR MORGAN No, I never took anyone there. MR KADES When do you recall when the last occasion was that you saw Dr Asvat? MR MORGAN No, I don't remember. MR KADES Did you not take, drive Mrs Mandela to Dr Asvat's surgery on the afternoon of the day on which he was killed? MR MORGAN No, I don't remember such an occasion. MR KADES Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in fact went to Dr Asvat's surgery that day, the day of ... (intervention) MR MORGAN No, I don't recall that. MR KADES MR MORGAN Yes, I was still employed. MR KADES Did you - you have told us that in your presence Dr Asvat said that Stompie should be taken to hospital. MR MORGAN Correct, correct, yes. MR KADES Where were you and where was Dr Asvat ... (intervention) MR MORGAN We were in Diepkloof, all of us. MR KADES Were you outside the house, inside the house? MR MORGAN We were inside the house. I was making coffee. MR KADES Yes, and was this in the morning, the afternoon, when was it? MR MORGAN I think it was in the afternoon, late afternoon. MR KADES Was it the day after you had seen Stompie being beaten and the other boys being beaten? Or was it a few days thereafter? MR MORGAN I think it was thereabouts, I don't recall quite well. MR KADES ... when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela refused to have Stompie taken to the hospital? MR MORGAN Nothing happened, she refused to take Stompie to the hospital. MR KADES ... what does he then do? Did he leave, did he stay? MR MORGAN I left Dr Asvat there with Mrs Mandela in Mrs Mandela's house, Diepkloof. MR KADES Do you know that two young men named Tulani Dlamini and Cyril Mbatha were eventually convicted of the murder of Dr Asvat? Did you know either of these young boys or both of them? MR MORGAN No, I didn't know them. MR KADES Did you ever overhear a discussion at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela concerning these two boys, and whether they had or hadn't been present at the premises of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. MR MORGAN No, I only saw Tulani in prison once. They were having an altercation with Jerry, talking about Dr Asvat's death. MR KADES Can you tell us about this discussion, that altercation, you say? MR MORGAN Jerry said, "Why did you kill Asvat?" to the other one, he was asking Tulani, and Tulani, they had to be separated at some stage because there were constant bouts between them in Johannesburg Prison. MR KADES So what was Tulani's reply to Jerry Richardson's question concerning why he killed Dr Asvat? MR MORGAN They first talked. I heard the other one asking the other one as to why he had killed Dr Asvat. Jerry was asking Tulani, and they started fighting with their fists. That's when they got separated. MR KADES Did you hear any of the talk between them, any of the discussion between them. MR MORGAN No, there's nothing I heard from them. They took Jerry to a separate cell. MR KADES Did Jerry answer the question that Richardson had put to him as to why he had killed Dr Asvat? MR MORGAN At this moment when the other one said, why did you kill Asvat, they started having this fist fight before Jerry could even answer, and they were later separated. MR KADES Would you say that question was not answered? Were you ever present at the surgery of Dr Asvat when he is alleged to have had a rather heated discussion with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. MR MORGAN No, I wasn't. MR KADES Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any others? Yes. MR RICHARD Thank you, Mr Chair. Tony Richard again. Mr Morgan, do you know Xoliswa Falati? MR MORGAN Yes, I do. MR RICHARD When did you first meet her? MR MORGAN I met her when she got to Winnie's place. She talked and I think they became friends with Winnie. No, I don't remember the year. MR RICHARD MR MORGAN I think it was somewhere thereabouts. MR RICHARD Could it have been during that three-year period? MR MORGAN Yes, I think so. MR RICHARD How long was it before the incident surrounding the death of Stompie Sepei? MR MORGAN I don't remember. MR RICHARD MR MORGAN I think it was a short while after the incident of Stompie. MR RICHARD (Not recorded. Speaker's mike not on) MR MORGAN I think after. MR RICHARD MR MORGAN Before Stompie's death. MR RICHARD Thank you. CHAIRPERSON When you say, thank you, you mean you're finished or thank you for the answer? MR RICHARD Thank you for the answer. CHAIRPERSON Answer, ah yes. INTERPRETER (The speaker's mike is not on.) MR RICHARD What role did Mrs Falati play in the incidents leading up to the death of Stompie Sepei? MR MORGAN I think she told Mrs Mandela that Paul Verryn from the Methodist Manse is living with boys at Manse Methodist. MR RICHARD Were you there when that was said? MR MORGAN No, I wasn't. This is just my opinion because Mrs Mandela said I should go and fetch the boys from Methodist Manse. MR RICHARD Let me proceed. Now the ... (indistinct) outlined during the course of which period Stompie Sepei, I won't go through again, but I'll go through to the fourth day after the first assault. Is that the day according to your evidence that Stompie Sepei finally died? MR MORGAN Yes. MR RICHARD Now, Mr Morgan, would you have any reason to dispute that version? MR MORGAN No, I don't refuse this, but I don't know it. MR RICHARD Is there any basis on which you would believe that that is erroneous? MR MORGAN I don't know. MR RICHARD ... that's the proposition I'm putting to you. Is that correct, you don't dispute it? MR MORGAN You are telling me a statement you've heard, and I'm also telling you things that I have seen, and the two are not the same. MR RICHARD MR MORGAN I don't know. MR RICHARD So you have no basis then to dispute the statements I ... (intervention) MR MORGAN With respect what are you expecting me to say now more than that he has said? MR RICHARD ... (intervention) MR MORGAN Yes, that is what I have said. MR RICHARD But then when I put what Mr Richardson will say in evidence to you, why didn't you dispute it? MR NTSEBEZA Well, I'm sorry to interrupt here. This witness has said that is another version, I have given you my version. I don't know about what you are saying to be your version. Now what more can he say? MR RICHARD Mr Chairman, with the greatest of respect, there are two mutually exclusive versions before the Tribunal, one which Mr Richardson will give when he gives evidence, and the other, and that the death of Mr Sepei took place at Mrs Mandela's house. If there is a conflict, let us know that there is, and it would appear that there is, and in the circumstances what I seek to do is to confront the witness with the contradiction so as to endeavour to find the truth, but it seems as if I've taken the point as far as I can. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now sometime far more recently in the recent past you seem to believe you knew where the bodies of certain individuals were. Which individuals were those? MR MORGAN I don't know, but they know. MR RICHARD Your answer is, "I don't know, but they know". Is that the bodies of Lolo Sono and Mr Shabalala? MR MORGAN I don't know those boys, Lolo and the other one, I don't know them. MR RICHARD MR MORGAN Can you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD Did you at any stage, and I'm led to believe that it might be so, take anyone to a disused mine shaft and suggest that there might be bodies down the mine shaft? MR MORGAN I think I'm saying I will not take anyone to a disused mine. MR RICHARD So in the circumstances there's no basis on which you might allege that you have knowledge that there was anything, or anyone, or any body down any mine shaft? MR MORGAN If I will take people to a disused mine shaft, that will mean I'm not sane upstairs. I'm insane. I am quite sane. MR RICHARD MR MORGAN Please repeat your question? MR RICHARD Did you give evidence as to how the Football Club came into existence? MR MORGAN I said I don't know how it emerged, but we did go to fetch the jerseys, the uniforms, but I don't know. CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Thank you, Mr Chairman. One of the rules of evidence is that each party, as was being said right now by your good self, should be given the opportunity to rebut or admit another party's version. It goes back to Genesis. When Adam was confronted by God with the apple, God did say something ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes, yes. That is a story I should know. DR BORAINE There's no mention of apple in the bible. CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will put the point about the origins about the football team as shortly as possible. Is it not correct that at the time that Mr Richardson joined Mrs Mandela's household as the football coach, there were bodyguards, MK cadres, and displaced people in the garden? In the backyard? MR MORGAN Must I answer? There were people in the backyard, and those who will be singing, but I don't like this merry-go-round sort of thing as if I'm insane. CHAIRPERSON MR MORGAN Yes, it is like that. MR RICHARD Mr Morgan, your answer is yes. My proposition is correct, is that as I understand it? MR MORGAN Yes. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, was it not then the case that your employer, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, decided that a football team would be a good idea to take people's time to occupy them? CHAIRPERSON No, I'm sorry, you are asking him to find out what is in her head. I mean I would have thought that you people in court would say that that was not a fair question to ask. I think you'll have to ask Mrs Mandela when she is in the witness stand. MR RICHARD Mr Chairman, my question is, was it not decided collectively in the community of that house that a football team should be put together with a coach, yes or no? MR MORGAN Yes, there has got to be a coach who will be the one to coach how to play. CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Let me try a third time. I will sketch it again and I will go slowly. There were displaced people, men whose occupation was to guard and protect Mrs Mandela, MK cadres, and people around the property. Now they all need an occupation, something to do, so was it not so that a decision was made collectively amongst the people that something should be done with them such as form a football club. [Intervention] You answered yes. MR MORGAN Yes, I answered yes. MR RICHARD Now ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Let me ask again, how long are you going for, because if you are going for a substantial time, then I will have us adjourn, and be fair to him. It's been a long day, it's been a long day for all of us. MR RICHARD My learned colleague on my right has indicated that he also has questions. My questioning should be no more than another fifteen minutes. CHAIRPERSON I think, I mean, that we will need to adjourn, and I think too that I have been very generous with limited cross-examination. I have given a very expended - I'm going to be very strict as of now because I think, I mean, that we are letting this roll far too long. You are going to have to say, the witness has said these, I have one, two, three, four points that I want to put to the witness, and if you don't do that in ten minutes, the guillotine is going to apply. I think, I mean, that I have been over-generous. You'll have to hold over your questions to tomorrow, and I'm not going to give you fifteen minutes, I'm giving you five minutes. MR RICHARD Mr Chairman I will prepare five one-line questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. I am very sorry that we have had to do this, but I think we were hoping we would make a very significant impression on today's roll. We have I think three other witnesses we should have called today. It seems to me that we are going to have to be prepared to meet possibly on Saturday, because the TRC has a problem. We have to finish, because we've got other engagements the following weekend. We had thought one week would in fact enable us to do this. If we are not finished, despite my very firm interpretation as of tomorrow of "limited", then I'm giving notice here that we are going to have to consider using Saturday to complete the roll. But thank you very, very much all of you. We adjourn to resume, maybe we should resume at half past eight. MR RICHARD I shall be here at half past eight. CHAIRPERSON We'll resume at half past eight. Thank you. HEARING ADJOURNS