special Mandela United Football Club Hearings 1997-11-26 Johannesburg 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56331&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/mandela/mufc3a.htm CHAIRPERSON: We are trying to get quiet for a moment please. Khoza? MR MGOJO [Opens hearing with a prayer.] CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Good morning, I welcome you all to this the third day of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We are trying to see just how quickly we can get up to date with our schedule. We call Paul Verryn. MS SOOKA(?) CHAIRPERSON MS SOOKA His lawyers are not here. CHAIRPERSON His lawyers are not here. Thabiso, can you just tell me (no English translation) MR MONO (no English translation) CHAIRPERSON We welcome you and we thank you very much. Please do forgive us, you were supposed to appear yesterday but you have been aware that the days are getting shorter and we thank you for your presence. Can you please stand up? Can we please settle? MS SOAK Could you state your full names for the record, please? MR MONO MS SOOKA Are you prepared to take the oath? BAREND THABISO MONO (sworn in) MR MAKANJEE CHAIRPERSON MR MAKANJEE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mono, were you one of the youths abducted from the Manse on the 29th of December 1988? MR MONO MR MAKANJEE And did you give evidence in relation to this and to the subsequent assault of Stompie Sepei at the trial of Jerry Richardson as well as the trial of Mrs Madikezela-Mandela? MR MONO MR MAKANJEE Did you make a statement to this TRC which corroborated the evidence that you gave in both trials that I mentioned? MR MONO MR MAKANJEE Sorry, Mr Chairman, is it necessary for me to lead evidence on the evidence that was given by my client during the trials or may I assume that members of the Commission have read the record? CHAIRPERSON What do you want us to do? MR MAKANJEE Very briefly, I would appreciate it if he reiterated what he said. CHAIRPERSON Briefly - your briefly is my briefly. MR MAKANJEE It is. MR MONO I do not understand which events, the events that took place on that day or which day, sir? MR MAKANJEE MR MONO CHAIRPERSON MR MONO After some time she came out, shouting at us and telling us that we are stubborn, we do not want to obey the orders, and she said she will send people to come and discipline us. MR MAKANJEE When she said that, who was she referring to? Which people was she referring to when she said that to you? MR MONO She was referring to the Mandela Football Club. MR MAKANJEE When the members of the Football Club arrived, can you tell us what happened from that point? MR MONO When these people arrived, myself Stompie and Dada were in the dining room playing cards. We heard the noise in the passage and one person was screaming in Afrikaans saying: "Come, come". When he appeared he was wearing an army coat, brown in colour. He said to us we should go the kitchen. We did as we were told, we went into the kitchen. When we arrived in the kitchen there were two groups. On the other side it was a group of those who stayed with us in the house and on the other side it was a group. And thereafter they said we should leave with them. We left with them. When we were outside they took us into the bus that was parked just further down the road. There was singing in this bus. We were told not to sit down, we should sin. Then we joined in the singing and the bus started moving. This bus drove until at a certain house in Diepkloof - that I learnt later. When we arrived at that place we were told to get out of the bus, and we went into the house. MR MAKANJEE Whose house was that? MR MONO At that time I did not know whose house it was but when we arrived there Mrs Mandela was there and we were taken to a back room - the room had a sliding door and we were put in that room to sit there. MR MAKANJEE Do you know why you were taken to that house? MR MONO From there Jerry Richardson came into the room and they separated us. They took myself and Stompie to a separate room that was opposite the room that we were sitting in. When we arrived in that room we found Slash and Isaac, I do not remember who the others were. In that room we heard the reason for us to be fetched. I said: "He might have taken out names because he was assaulted". And for that reason they would not regard him as an informer because they would understand themselves that if you are in the hands of the police something must just happen". MR MAKANJEE Was Mrs Madikezela-Mandela present at that stage? MR MONO At the time when Slash and them were asking Stompie questions, she was not there, we had been separated. MR MAKANJEE Can you tell us what happened after that incident? MR MONO A person came into the room bringing the food, and we said we were not hungry. After some time another person came in and he said we are wanted in the first room, the room that we were put in first - that is the room where Pelo and Kenny were left. When we got into that room they were already seated, all the people were sitting down. We joined - we joined Pelo and them. After joining Pelo and them, Jerry said someone must bring a chair for Mummy, Mummy should sit on the chair. Then another chair was brought and then Morgan took another chair. MR MAKANJEE Who was Mummy that was being referred to? MR MONO He was referring to Mrs Mandela. MR MAKANJEE Did Mrs Mandela then enter the room? MR MONO Yes, she arrived in the room. When she arrived in the room she questioned us why we allowed a white priest to sleep with us. We did not approve of that, and then she asked Stompie why was Stompie selling the people. Stompie disagreed with that kind of information, and then she started hitting us with fists, one by one. After that the whole group joined in the assault. MR MAKANJEE So just to recap, you said that Mrs Madikezela- Mandela asked you - who else with you was accused of sleeping with the priest? MR MONO MR MAKANJEE After you were assaulted with fists, what happened? MR MONO After the assault with the fists, the whole group joined in the assault. They kicked us, they lifted us up, and we were thrown to the ground. After some time they started hitting us with sjamboks. MR MAKANJEE MR MONO Mrs Mandela started hitting me with a sjambok - we were lying down. MR MAKANJEE Mrs Madikezela-Mandela has said that on the day in question she was in Brandfort. Can you comment on that? MR MONO I do not know what to say. I saw her. She was the person who assaulted us with fists and hitting us with sjamboks - I do not know which Mrs Mandela was in Brandfort. MR MAKANJEE Thank you. Just to clear up a few other points. We have heard Mrs Falati saying that Stompie was not questioned about being an informer, but rather that the accusation regarding Stompie was that he slept with the priest. Can you comment on that? MR MONO If I remember well, Stompie was asked a question, why did he sell the people out? Even Slash asked him questions about selling the people out. He was never asked about sleeping with the priest. MR MAKANJEE Did you know Stompie from Parys? MR MONO Yes. MR MAKANJEE So you were one of the people who knew Stompie closer than most others at the Manse, is that correct? MR MONO I believe it was myself and Pelo and others from Potchefstroom, but myself and Pelo were the two people who knew him very well because, between 1996 and 1997, we stayed together in Potchefstroom prison for quite a long time. We even spent the Krishtmas and the New Year in the prison together. MR MAKANJEE Do you know whether there was a story in the house which came from the boys in Parys, that Stompie was an informer? MR NTSEBEZA Excuse me, sir, did your client say between 1996 or 1997? We want to clear that up. MR MAKANJEE MR MONO MR MAKANJEE Miss Falati also stated that Stompie, while you were staying at the Manse, there was an incident where Stompie came out of the room that he was sharing with Pelo and yourself, and complained to Miss Falati that you and Pelo were caressing Stompie, can you comment on that? MR MONO I do not believe that he would have gone to report this matter to Mrs Falati, they were really not in good terms. He would tell Paul, because, if there was any misunderstanding, Paul was a go-between and bring about peace. MR MAKANJEE As far as you were aware, was Stompie Sepei an informer? MR MONO I do not believe that. MR MAKANJEE Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You have canvassed all that you wanted to? Let me not tempt you but, I mean, you have covered everything? MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman, there are a few other aspects I could cover, if you would permit me. CHAIRPERSON All right. MR MAKANJEE Could you tell us about a gentleman called Guybon? MR MONO MR MAKANJEE Mr Mono, what happened to Stompie after that? MR MONO MR MAKANJEE Can you just briefly describe the condition that Stompie was in at that stage? MR MONO His head was swollen, his forehead was swollen, his face was swollen, his eyes were very small - that was during the time when he left with Jerry. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Hanif? MR VALLY Thank you, Arch. Mr Mono, when did you move to the Methodist Manse in Soweto? MR MONO I went to the Manse in 1988. It was towards the end of 1988. MR VALLY MR MONO The reason was that I was hunted by the police in Potchefstroom, and I was not living happily, and I wanted to carry on with my studies the next year, and for that reason I would not stay in Potchefstroom - the police were really troubling me. Pelo gave me an advice, he said we should go to Johannesburg because he used to frequent Johannesburg. MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO We were never seen by a doctor. MR VALLY Tell us when you were released. Do you remember what date it was? MR MONO After I was released I went to the doctor. MR VALLY Who took you to the doctor? MR MONO Paul took us to the doctor, myself and Pelo. MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY What injuries did you have at that time? MR MONO I do not remember the injuries but I had scratches on my back because of the sjamboks. MR VALLY Do you remember the date you were released? MR MONO I do not remember the date very well, but it was January of 1989. MR VALLY In your statement you say it was January the 16th, 1989, could this possibly be right? MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY Can you give us details of this, please? MR MONO MR VALLY Can you tell us about - describe this tracksuit to us briefly. MR MONO They were green and yellow. MR VALLY Did they have any writing on them? MR MONO At the back they were printed: "Mandela Football Club". MR VALLY Was Mrs Winnie Madikezela-Mandela present at the funeral? MR MONO Yes, she was. MR VALLY Did she travel with you to the funeral at any stage? MR MONO I do not remember very well whether she was with us in the bus or not. MR VALLY I want to ask you something different: were you in any way involved in the assault of Lerathodi Ikaneng? MR MONO I did not assault him, but can I be given an opportunity to explain? It was in the afternoon of that day. Jerry said we should go and exercise. Just after the exercise we sat outside our room. Jerry came to us and said myself, Kenny, Slash - I do not remember who else, he said we should put on our shoes because there was a task that we should do. We should go with him, we should follow him. He said to Isaac, Isaac must go and get the taxi money from Zinzi. Then we followed him. MR VALLY Carry on, tell us the whole story. MR MONO We left for the taxi, and we got off at a filling station at Orlando. We went into a certain house, we left, then we got into another house. They met another boy who was wearing a red shirt. Jerry and Slash grabbed him by his belt, telling him that he should come with us. He said: "Please, do not hold me, I can come with you, I will not run away". They allowed him to walk freely. At some stage he tried to run away. They chased him and they got hold of him. We walked together with him until we jumped the highway, and this boy was tripped and Jerry said we should hold his legs so that he does not kick. And some of us hold his hands, and Jerry separated a garden shear, and then Jerry stabbed this boy. He said we should throw him in the furrow next to where we were. MR VALLY Please briefly describe to me the nature of the stabbing. MR MONO He stabbed him here with that shear. MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY Do you know who it was that you met? MR MONO If I remember well it was Aubrey Mokoena, Sister Bernard Ncube, Sydney Mufamadi. I remember those three, I do not remember the others. MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO Yes. MR VALLY Can you briefly tell us about this community meeting? MR MONO MR VALLY What happened at the meeting? MR MONO We were asked to explain what happened and we told them everything. MR VALLY Is what you told them what you told us today? MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY What did you tell them? Sydney Mufamadi, Sister Bernard Ncube, Mr Aubrey Mokoena, what did you tell them? MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO If I remember well Katiza spoke, Ikaneng spoke. MR VALLY What did Katiza and Ikaneng say? MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO MR VALLY MR MONO It was my intention. together with Pelo, to give evidence, and we were prepared to give out everything. All of a sudden I was told that Pelo had been taken away by people whom I do not know, and I did not know what was happening. And I was supposed to first think of my life, whether if I take an action of testifying, what was going to happen to me. MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Thank you, Chairperson. MR MONO If I remember well, there was an allegation in the house that Stompie was an informer, and we sat down. Paul called a meeting, we discussed this issue. And Paul told Falati to stop calling Stompie an informer because Stompie was just a child, and this issue stopped just there. MR SEMENYA MR MONO MR SEMENYA And the reason you were assaulted, was because you were alleged to have been sodomised? MR MONO MR SEMENYA And the reason Mekgwe is assaulted is for the same reason? MR MONO MR SEMENYA MR MONO MR SEMENYA MR MONO I also do not know why was he not assaulted, but what I know for a fact is that Cebekhulu was also part of the people who were assaulting us. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Sorry to disturb you, we were just being thrilled that we are getting fresh air. MR MONO During the assault I did not know that Katiza had been accused also of having been sodomised, I just saw him on the site of the people assaulting us. MR SEMENYA MR MONO MR SEMENYA MR MONO I do not have any reason to believe that - I do not know, I do not bear any knowledge. MR SEMENYA The explanation I therefore have is that Richardson, Falati and Cebekhulu must have arranged the facts to suggest that you people were sodomised, what would be your reaction? MR MONO There is nothing I can say about that. If ever they put up a story to come up with this allegation, I do not know. MR SEMENYA MR NTSEBEZA MR SEMENYA MR NTSEBEZA MR SEMENYA Can you respond? Can I repeat the question maybe? MR MONO Yes, repeat your question. MR SEMENYA MR MONO MR SEMENYA In your evidence just now - may I just put it to you that it is incorrect to say that Mrs Mandela participated in the assault on you and the other group? MR MONO I am correct, sir. I was present, I am the person who felt the pain, and I believe when you feel the pain you realise this person inflicting pain in you. MR SEMENYA Did Miss Falati as well participate in the assault? MR MONO According to my recollection I do not remember seeing her taking part in any assault. I do not remember her daughter assaulting me. MR SEMENYA MR MONO I do not remember any doctor coming to see Stompie in our presence. MR SEMENYA And in one aspect of your evidence you say Richardson said you must go to the funeral of Mr Mabuza senior? MR MONO The funeral of Mr Sipho Mabuza? MR SEMENYA You were told by Richardson nevertheless? MR MONO MR SEMENYA Did Mrs Mandela say to you that you must go to that funeral? MR MONO No. MR SEMENYA Now let me quote what you have just told us today. You said "I was taken to a funeral by her", meaning Mrs Mandela? MR MONO I do not remember saying that, I said the person who gave us track suits was Jerry Richardson. MR SEMENYA If the record indicates you said that, you must have been wrong, right? MR MONO Yes, if that is what I said, I must have missed your question. MR SEMENYA When you went together with Richardson to assault Ikaneng Lerothodi, did Mrs Mandela say to you you must go there? MR MONO No. MR SEMENYA Sorry, I missed your answer. MR MONO The person who told us to go there was Jerry Richardson. MR SEMENYA MR MONO I never heard that, sir. MS SOOKA Sorry Mr Semenya, my understanding is not that the witness testified that he was instructed by Mrs Mandela to assault Lerothodi Ikaneng, so your cross is a little ...[intervention] MR SEMENYA MR NTSEBEZA But is the evidence that you anticipate about Richardson going to be that at the time that the alleged instruction was given, this witness was present? MR SEMENYA I do not know, Commissioner Ntsebeza, all I know is if Richardson was committing it on a consensual understanding of the instructions, then this witness will assist me to deny it. MR NTSEBEZA Fair enough. CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA MR MONO I never heard of such an instruction, so I never thought of her involvement. MR SEMENYA MR MONO MR SEMENYA Your lie was, according to you, suggested by Richardson? MR MONO MR SEMENYA ...[intervention] allegations about sodomy are a lie, is that correct? MR MONO We were only asked once. MR SEMENYA You say that once Pelo left the country you began to get scared for your life? MR MONO MR SEMENYA MR MONO I could not tell at that time who took Pelo away, and I did not know was going to happen, and I was just scared of these people who took Pelo away because I did not know how they took him. MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] at the time it was alleged that he was spirited out by Mrs Mandela, was that your information too that led to you being frightened? MR MAKANJEE MS SOOKA I need to be fair to Mr Semenya, I think he asked if that was what he had heard, that Mrs Mandela had CHAIRPERSON Thabiso, would you be in a position to answer that question? Did you understand that Pelo ran away because of Mrs Mandela? MR MONO That is not what I heard. I only heard through the phone - a person received a call where we stayed, and he woke us up and he said, Pelo has been taken away, and he did not tell us who took Pelo away and how he was taken away. The next morning we were supposed to give evidence and we felt that it was not safe for us to do anything. That is why we refrained from giving evidence. MR SEMENYA You have no reason to doubt when Pelo tells us that he left on his own accord with the chairperson of his region assisting him? MR MONO MR SEMENYA Did you say that you went and obtained taxi money from Zinzi? MR MONO Jerry told Isaac to fetch the taxi money from Zinzi, then we left. MR SEMENYA So you have no factual basis to support that in fact that happened, am I correct? MR MONO Jerry ordered Isaac, Isaac went into the house, and we left. I do not know what happened in the house. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes? MR TENGE Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON If you will please identify yourself for radio, thank you. MR TENGE MR MONO Yes, that is correct. MR TRENGROVE I understand that to mean that they accused you of willing participation in sexual activity with the priest, is my understanding correct? MR MONO Yes, because they asked me why I accepted sleeping with the white man. MR TRENGROVE The accusation against you was that you willingly participated in that activity? MR MONO MR TRENGROVE MR MONO They did not explain that, they asked me why I slept with a white man. CHAIRPERSON MR MONO MR TRENGROVE MR MONO During the assault I agreed. MR TRENGROVE Only because they assaulted you? MR MONO Yes, there was no way out because, after accepting, Jerry Richardson ordered them to stop with the assault, he said we were not going to be assaulted any further. MR TRENGROVE The purpose of the assault was to force you to make that admission. MR MONO I would say so because after accepting we were left. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any other? Yes? MR KADES Mr Commissioner, Norman Kades on behalf of the Asvat family. Did you know the late Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, had you ever seen him or had any dealings with him? MR MONO MR KADES During the period that you stayed or remained on at the Mandela household after the 29th of December, did an Indian man ever come to the house that you saw? MR MONO I do not remember, I do not remember an Indian man coming to the house. MR KADES CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Identify yourself. MR RICHARD A J Richard, representing Mr Jerry Richardson. Mr Mono, when Mr Richardson and the others came to the Manse, did you have any choice as to whether you would go with them or not? Could you have refused? MR MONO I did not have any choice. MR RICHARD Now, for how many days were you at the Mandela house before Stompie disappeared, can you remember? MR MONO MR RICHARD Thank you. Now during the period that you were at the house, were any other people brought to the house and assaulted to your knowledge, besides the four of you? MR MONO No other persons were brought to the house to be assaulted, sir. MR RICHARD MR MONO MR RICHARD Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman, the witness has indicated to me that he would like to have two minutes to address the Commission himself, would that be permissible? CHAIRPERSON We will take the risk. MR MAKANJEE Thank you, Mr Chair. MR MONO I just want to know why all these things happened to me, I want these people to give us explanations. I believe when there are allegations you have to investigate first to find the depth of those allegations. I do not believe that what they did to us was a justified action to take on that day. CHAIRPERSON We will try to get answers to those questions, but I want to say to you we thank you for your evidence. Thank you. Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA Could you tell us your full names for the record, please? MR VERRYN Paul Verryn. MS SOOKA Thank you. PAUL VERRYN (sworn in) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR TRENGROVE That issue in itself seems to us to be of only peripheral relevance to your enquiry. It was at one time relevant when the abductors put up as an excuse for their abduction, a belief that the witness had engaged in sexual activity with those five people. Even that relevance seems to us to have disappeared, or at least to have been substantially diluted, because those who made the allegations have all retracted them. But the witness nonetheless wishes to have an opportunity to deal with that issue. CHAIRPERSON Hanif? MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON That is what I said. MR TRENGROVE MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE Central District. Since when have you held that position? MR TRENGROVE Since the 1st of June 1997. MR TRENGROVE What position in the Church did you hold in December 1988? MR VERRYN I had been appointed as the Resident Minister in the Orlando section of the Jabavu Circuit of this district. MR TRENGROVE You lived in a Manse in your congregation, is that correct? MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE That is still your permanent base although you spend a lot of time away from it these days, is that correct? MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE In the Manse in December 1988, there were various people given refuge, correct? MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE They included Katiza Cebekhulu, Stompie Sepei, Pelo Mekgwe , Thabiso Mono, and Kenny Kgase? MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE Did you ever rape any of those people? MR VERRYN No. MR TRENGROVE Did you ever sexually molest any of those people? MR VERRYN No. MR TRENGROVE Did you ever engage in any sexual activity with those people? MR VERRYN No. MR TRENGROVE Did you ever make sexual advances to them? MR VERRYN No. MR TRENGROVE People in the Manse commonly shared beds, is that correct? MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE How many people would be living in the Manse at any given time at about the end of 1988? MR VERRYN It varied from, I would say, 10 to 17 or 20 people. MR TRENGROVE Could you describe in general terms who these people were who lived in the Manse? MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE You said that the population of the house varied from about 10 to 20, is that correct? MR VERRYN Ja. MR TRENGROVE How many bedrooms are there in the house and were there at that time? MR VERRYN There are three bedrooms and a study. MR TRENGROVE And how many beds are there in the Manse? MR VERRYN There are three beds in the Manse. MR TRENGROVE How does one accommodate 10 to 20 people with only three beds in the Manse? MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE There was in your bedroom a double bed? MR VERRYN Yes. MR TRENGROVE You also shared your double bed with the other inhabitants of the house? MR VERRYN I did. MR TRENGROVE Would it have tolerable for you to insist on having that double bed to yourself whilst other people slept on the floor? MR VERRYN I think it would have been intolerable. MR TRENGROVE In the second half of 1988 there was an incident when certain people in the Manse accused Stompie of being an informer, do you remember that? MR VERRYN I do remember that. MR TRENGROVE Could you tell us about the incident? MR VERRYN I - Well, let me give a context to that. I was approached by Matthew Chaskelson, with whom Stompie had lived for a while, to take Stompie into my residence. He was going away on holiday, and apparently had consulted with the community of Tumahole about where Stompie could be placed, and ultimately the decision was made that he be sent to my house. And that if there was any chance Stompie was an informant, then we needed to clearly understand two things: if he gave information under torture it was understood, I thought, by most of the people of the movement at that stage that you were not expected to hold out against the odds, and particularly for what really was a child - number one. And number two that if the police had decided to make anybody an informant, there was absolutely nothing you could do about it. They could arrange matters so that you could look as if you were an informant, and there would be nothing that you could do about it. But what I was absolutely clear about was that this would not - this kind of procedure would not happen in this mission house. MR TRENGROVE Could I turn then to the events later that month when people were abducted from the Manse. Were you at the Manse at the time? MR VERRYN No, I was on holiday in Pretoria. MR TRENGROVE MR VERRYN Either the 22nd or the 23rd. MR TRENGROVE You returned to the Manse briefly on the 28th? MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE Why? MR VERRYN I returned to the Manse with Joanne Collinge, we were going to go through to the Western Transvaal. There had been some young people who had disappeared, and Joanne was going to try and do a newspaper report on it, and I was really going to try and do some, as it were, pastoral work in the families. MR TRENGROVE When you called at the Manse, you found that there was some tension. MR VERRYN Yes. MR TRENGROVE Could you tell us about it? MR VERRYN Some of the young people, amongst them were Pelo and Thabiso, had had an argument with Mrs Falati, and she had, according to them, threatened that she was going to discipline them by calling the Football Club in. MR TRENGROVE What was your attitude to that complaint? MR VERRYN I did what I always do. I called the people that are being accused in, and we had a long discussion about what the problem was, and I left thinking that we had settled the issue, and that the young men had had a chance to express themselves, and Mrs Falati had also had a chance to express her unhappiness about their lack of discipline, and that related, as I understood it, primarily to cleaning arrangements in the mission house. MR TRENGROVE On the 31st of December you received a telephone call informing you of the abduction of the four? MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE You were also told not to return to the Manse? MR VERRYN I was. MR TRENGROVE Or advised not to return to the Manse? MR VERRYN I was. MR TRENGROVE And you heeded that advice. MR VERRYN I heeded that advice. MR TRENGROVE On the 7th of January 1989, you received a call from David Ching telling you that Kenny had escaped his abduction? MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE Did you meet Kenny? MR VERRYN I packed my things and returned to Johannesburg and met with Kenny at Central Methodist Mission. MR TRENGROVE What was his physical condition when you met him? MR VERRYN MR TRENGROVE MR VERRYN He did. MR TRENGROVE You took him to Doctor Kennel for a medical examination? MR VERRYN I did that in the evening of that day. MR TRENGROVE We know today that on the 16th of January, Thabiso Mono and Pelo Mekgwe were released from abduction. MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE We also know that that evening a community meeting was called at which they gave an account of the events since their abduction. MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE MR VERRYN That is correct. MR TRENGROVE Had you had any contact with those two people, Thabiso Mono and Pelo Mekgwe, since their abduction and before they made this report to the community meeting? MR VERRYN No. MR TRENGROVE Who took them to the meeting? MR VERRYN Peter Storey. MR TRENGROVE Was it on his advice that you refrained from having any contact with them? MR VERRYN It was on his insistence. MR TRENGROVE After the community meeting on - I think it was the 18th of January, you also took those two for a medical examination by Doctor Kennel. MR VERRYN I did. MR TRENGROVE You asked me to ask the Commission to allow you to express your feelings about two people. The first of them is Stompie Sepei and the fate that he suffered. Would you like to do that now? MR VERRYN I see that Mrs Sepei is in the audience here today, and the thing that has been most difficult for me is that, having heard the allegations, I did not remove him from the mission house and get him to a place where he could be safe, and I think that if I had acted in another way he could be alive today. And so I want to apologise to Mrs Sepei for my part in that. MR TRENGROVE The other person about whom you requested an opportunity to express your feelings is Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. MR VERRYN I have had to struggle to come to some place of learning to forgive even if you do not want forgivenness or even think that I deserve to offer that to you. I struggle to find a way in which we can be reconciled for the sake of this nation and for the people that I believe God loves so deeply. And so I sit before you and want to say that to you. Thank you. MR TRENGROVE Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Hanif? MR VALLY Mr Pigou will be asking a few questions. MR PIGOU Good morning, Bishop Verryn. Bishop Verryn, before this incident in December 1988, could you tell us, from your perspective as a churchman in that area of Soweto, whether you were receiving reports of tensions within the community around the Mandela United Football Club? MR VERRYN There were rumours, I think, there were rumours relating to behaviour that was unacceptable to the community. MR PIGOU Could you perhaps indicate what the nature of these rumours were, what sort of incidents were being brought to your attention? MR VERRYN MR PIGOU Thank you. Did you have any contact with the so-called Mandela Crisis Committee before the kidnapping of Stompie and the other boys? MR VERRYN MR PIGOU "At 9 a.m., Fink Haysom agrees to act for us" MR VERRYN I do remember that. MR PIGOU "PJS and Verryn met with crisis team again at 3 p.m." Do you recall - "and asked whether they would give evidence in this regard" Do you recall the Mandela Crisis Committee saying that they would not co-operate with such a legal undertaking? MR VERRYN I do. MR PIGOU "John Reece conveys a message from Albertina Sisulu, who he saw the previous evening, to Verryn saying that he must stay out of Soweto because his life is definitely in danger." Do you recall being informed by Mr Reece about that message from Albertina Sisulu ? MR VERRYN I do clearly remember being told that I needed to stay out of Soweto. MR PIGOU Thank you. Were you also told by Bishop Storey that Frank Chikane had passed a similar message prior to that? MR VERRYN Yes. MR PIGOU "In this incident, this despicable incident of the church we talk about, the so-called Mandela United is supposed to have kidnapped these children to force them to join Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC. You see, if you spread propaganda of that sort, that we go so far as to kidnap children to compel them to join Umkhonto, what could be more damaging to the community than that"? She goes on to say: Did you ever make such an allegation? MR VERRYN No. CHAIRPERSON MR PIGOU Did you ever make such an allegation? MR VERRYN MR PIGOU Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Bishop, according to Falati, she says Cebekhulu for the first time alleges that he was sodomised by you, and then Falati takes that story to Mrs Madikezela-Mandela, am I correct to think, at least from that point, that Falati must have had something to do with this pain you suffered as a result of this rumour? MR VERRYN Yes. MR SEMENYA Do you seek reconciliation with her? MR VERRYN Mrs Falati has written a 9-paged apology to me. MR SEMENYA [intervention] And you have reconciled? MR VERRYN And I have tried to deal with some of these issues with her. MR SEMENYA It seems to me, that at least at the time before these allegations were retracted, there was indeed such allegations said about you. MR VERRYN Yes. MR SEMENYA And it would have been disturbing allegations to somebody who had a political responsibility about such matters, is that correct? MR VERRYN Yes. MR SEMENYA It would not have been incorrect for Mrs Mandela to take the attitude she did if she believed in the correctness of those rumours, is that correct? MR VERRYN Yes. MR SEMENYA She had not known you before that time, is that right? MR VERRYN MR SEMENYA MR VERRYN No. MR SEMENYA You are not aware of any reason why she would have had reason to discredit you, is that right? MR VERRYN That is correct. MR SEMENYA MR VERRYN No. MR SEMENYA It is the first time you hear after, the books, that he alleges to have been from that house, is that right? MR VERRYN MR SEMENYA MR VERRYN That certainly was my perception. MR SEMENYA And you actually intervened when Falati accused this little boy Stompie of being an informer, is that right? MR VERRYN I did. MR SEMENYA I have no further questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA Chairperson, with the greatest of respect, my instructions are yes, Mrs Mandela would want to communicate with the Bishop but - and holds a view that if the Bishop had meant to communicate what he communicated today, previously, he could very well have done that. And she will take the opportunity outside of this, what we believe to be a camera scenario, to reconcile with Bishop Verryn about these matters. And incidentally I learn that he is the Bishop of the church to which my client belongs. CHAIRPERSON UNKNOWN Thank you, Chair. Bishop, the people who landed in your Manse, the displaced and disrupted people, who referred them to you, or did they simply find their own way to you? MR VERRYN Some of them I think brought friends, and some of them were referred by community people, and some of them were referred by church. UNKNOWN How many other such places of refuge were there in your area at the time? UNKNOWN There were some of our Ministers who were trying to help with the sanctuary programme, as it was called, and then we did have a Bosmont Community Centre that was used for a while as a sanctuary. UNKNOWN And it would be true to say that at the time such places were in rather short supply? MR VERRYN Absolutely. UNKNOWN MR VERRYN I should think so. UNKNOWN And it would also flow logically that - as you say you had 10 or 20, Mrs Mandela would have the same sort of numbers, it would be appropriate to find some sort of occupation for the people to do? MR VERRYN Yes. UNKNOWN And it would also then be ordinary to say that at some point the idea of forming a football club would be an obvious activity? MR VERRYN Yes. UNKNOWN Now, your relationship with Miss Falati, when did you first meet her? MR VERRYN I really cannot remember, it was certainly before she moved into the mission house. UNKNOWN MR VERRYN UNKNOWN MR VERRYN That is true. UNKNOWN2 Now the impression - and I have only yesterday to go by, is that she is a highly emotional and somewhat reactive person, over-reactive indeed. MR VERRYN I think that needs to be put into a context. UNKNOWN2 Please do so. MR VERRYN I think she has been exposed to a considerable amount of brutality, particularly considering some of the work that she was doing in the township where she was, and so I have always understood that some of that - what seems like irrational reactiveness - comes from that place. UNKNOWN MR VERRYN That could be true. UNKNOWN Now at that time - in the political context of the day - if I made the assertion that there was a high degree of paranoia about informers, spies, impimpis MR VERRYN Yes, absolutely. UNKNOWN And as you said in your evidence earlier, other powers were quite liable to set people up in the public eye as informers. MR VERRYN Yes. UNKNOWN And unfortunately the results for those individuals that were set up could be quite problematic, indeed fatal? MR VERRYN Yes. UNKNOWN And you have knowledge of such incidents? MR VERRYN Yes. UNKNOWN CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON You have not got your machine on. UNKNOWN2 Bishop Verryn, you said that you returned to the Manse on the 28th of December. MR VERRYN That is correct. UNKNOWN2 Did you leave again that day? MR VERRYN Yes, I left - I was only there for about an hour or two. UNKNOWN2 What time of the day were you there? MR VERRYN It must have been mid-morning to midday, round about that time. UNKNOWN2 MR VERRYN UNKNOWN3 MR VERRYN Yes, let me put it this way, there always has been a reasonable amount of movement backwards and forwards, but if they were not going to be there overnight - it was important, in case there was a detention, that we knew about it - if somebody went missing. UNKNOWN Please do. MR VERRYN As far as Stompie was concerned, there were sometimes difficulties with this, he came and went, struggled with that aspect of our just accounting to one another, and because I knew of the sensitivity around him, I was worried about that. UNKNOWN3 MR VERRYN And I can understand the paranoia that started coming around in the house: "Where was he getting these things, was he being paid by the police". UNKNOWN2 No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR KADES Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Norman Kades on behalf of the Asvat family. Bishop, were you acquainted with the late Doctor Abu Bakker Asvat? MR VERRYN I was. MR KADES And do you recall whether you saw him subsequent to the abduction of these youths from the Manse on the 29th of December? MR VERRYN No, I did not. I saw him during that year at an informal settlement in Soweto where we were trying to organise some help for one of the communities there. And he was one of the prime workers in that community. MR KADES MR VERRYN MR KADES Do you know whether the Crisis Committee was in possession of any information concerning the death of Doctor Asvat? MR VERRYN MR KADES Was such information - you were never made party to such information if indeed it existed? MR VERRYN No, I was not made a part of it. MR KADES Did you know anything - did you receive any information at all from any members of the Crisis Committee concerning any of their investigations into the death of Doctor Asvat? MR VERRYN No. MR KADES Thank you. MR UNTERHALTER Mr Chairman, if I may. Bishop Verryn, my name is David Unterhalter, I act for Dudu Chili. Are you aware of an attack on the Chili house in which the house was burnt down in February 1989? MR VERRYN I am. MR UNTERHALTER Do you know of efforts that were made thereafter to take Dudu Chili into protection and hiding because she feared for her life from members of the Mandela United Football Club? MR VERRYN I am aware of it. MR UNTERHALTER Could you tell us what efforts were made in that regard? MR VERRYN MR UNTERHALTER Thank you, Bishop Verryn. CHAIRPERSON Mr [inaudible]? UNKNOWN I have no further questions, thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON [Inaudible] Dumisa? MR NTSEBEZA Thank you, Chairperson. MR VERRYN No. MR NTSEBEZA MR VERRYN MR NTSEBEZA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Boraine? DR BORAINE CHAIRPERSON DR BORAINE MR VERRYN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin? MS SOOKA Bishop Verryn, you know at the evidence in her trial, Mrs Falati actually said that, before she had known about the Stompie incident, you yourself had discussed these allegations with her in September or October of that year, can you confirm that you did, and perhaps you could just tell me some of your own reasons for doing that, if you did. MR VERRYN CHAIRPERSON It is possible actually to maybe give somebody a clap. [Applause] CHAIRPERSON Please settle. Order! We now call Bishop Peter Storey. Bishop Peter Storey? MR STOREY Yes, sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much for coming. We know that you are at the present time on sabbatical in the United States, but you that have been very generous to break into that in order to be here. I myself just want to attest to the outstanding role that you played in the time of our struggle when I was General Secretary of the SACC and you were Deputy President, and then President, at some of the most difficult times when we were chucked out at gunpoint from Gazankhulu or something like that. But thank you very, very much for coming. I presume you will be speaking in English. Would you please stand? MS SOOKA Will you state your full names for the record please? MR STOREY Peter John Storey. PETER JOHN STOREY (sworn in) MS SOOKA Thank you, you may be seated. CHAIRPERSON Hanif? MR VALLY Thank you, Archbishop. Bishop Storey, you have prepared a memorandum setting out the account of events relating to the abduction of youths from the Orlando West Mission house on the 29th of December 1988, is that correct? MR STOREY That is correct,sir, it is something I made at the time. MR VALLY MR STOREY "Further Record based on Diary Rough Notes and Press Reports". And what happened, sir, was that when I was invited to come here I thought it would important to go back over that period and fill in from the point of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON DR BORAINE MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VALLY It has been given to the legal teams, though. MR STOREY What I was saying, sir, was that the first 14 pages were contemporaneous notes and the second section, which has just been the subject of your discussion, I put together from my diary, from rough notes, and press reports, just to refresh my own mind prior to coming to this Commission. MR VALLY So, when you say these were contemporaneous notes, you had your rough notes, you had your diary and then - did you do it on a nightly basis that you noted everything and recorded everything? MR STOREY I brought it up to date - this was a crisis which covered quite a period of time - and I brought it up to date every second day or so at the time. MR VALLY Thank you, Bishop. Now, I want to go through this memo with you. There are portions which I think it will not be necessary for us to traverse and there will be other sections where we would like quite a bit of detail. If I could ask you to try and focus on the issues regarding the abduction from the children from the Manse, the subsequent disappearance of Mr Stompie Sepei, the various negotiations that community leaders had regarding the youths. "Mid-December 1988" Do you see that? MR STOREY Ja. MR VALLY Now, then you have 28th of January, 29th of January and 31st of January. MR STOREY Those should read December, and they have been corrected by hand in my copy. MR VALLY Thank you, so I think we should just note that those dates should all read "December". Bishop Storey, can you start off on your first page where you have set out the sub-heading "Mid-November 1988"? MR STOREY It was in mid-November that, as part a report to me on how things were progressing in the house, he indicated that a Miss Xoliswa Falati had come to live in the house. And he reported an improvement in discipline and cleanliness, and also that he felt less vulnerable, more protected from rumours because there was now an adult woman in the house. MR VALLY MR STOREY MR VALLY MR STOREY MR VALLY MR STOREY Well, I think these things have a way of starting small, and initially I think there was a hope that this might be a misunderstanding. Local people in the community felt they could deal with this, this was not something that necessarily would have to go further, and so I am not very clear at all about all the things that happened in response to the abduction in those first few days, except that I was told by Mr Aubrey Mokoena that he had gone to visit Mrs - then known as Mrs Mandela - on the 4th of January. On the 6th of January I was told that Doctor Motlana visited the house, and that this time Mrs Mandela acknowledged that the children were there, but she refused to give him access when he asked to examine them. Those are just some of the initial community responses to the abduction that I know of. Do you want me to go further into - ? MR VALLY MR STOREY MR VALLY MR STOREY Well, again this is - I have to emphasise - I as yet did not know about this abduction, so this is what was reported to me, but that David Ching, one of the staff members of the Central Methodist Mission telephoned Reverend Paul Verryn to say that Kenny Kgase - now Kenny Kgase had a link with the Central Methodist Mission, he was a semi-staff member there and did some work there and earned a little bit of money that way - that he had arrived in a bad physical state, and Paul apparently went to meet with him and his first question to Paul Verryn was: "Where is Stompie"? And then he told Paul that he was very traumatised and one of the things which he blurted out was: "We are being trained to kill". Paul Verryn then met with his Superintendent Minister, the Reverend Otto Mbambula, who indicated that he had been engaged with the Reverend Sizwe Mbabane in some discussions with community leaders since the 2nd of January about this issue. Paul then took Kenny Kgase to the doctor because of his head injuries. He was x-rayed and it seemed that no serious damage was diagnosed, although he was still having trouble with his eyesight and there were other problems. Kenny was then taken to Mr Geoff Budlander, a lawyer and he made a statement, and Mr Budlander placed very strong conditions on how that statement might ever be used. And he was asking that the church and the community leaders co-operate very closely in this matter. And I agreed with that. I recognised the sensitivity of it all and it was quite clear that we would need to work with and through community leaders to try and obtain the release of these youths. MR VALLY Bishop, let me just stop you for a minute there. The Crisis Committee and other people that you referred to earlier in the paragraph, Mr Aubrey Mokoena, Sister Bernard Ncube, Mr Sydney Mufamadi ...[intervention] MR STOREY MR VALLY Please go on.. MR STOREY Do you wish me to go into Thursday the 12th? MR VALLY MR STOREY Mr Chikane had indicated to me that the Crisis Committee was going to see Mrs Mandela on the 11th. On Thursday the 12th, he reported to me that he and Aubrey Mokoena and Sister Bernard Ncube and Sydney Mufamadi had visited Mrs Mandela on the 11th. She had told them that she was protecting these youths and that they were not abducted, they were there of their request. When they came in the afternoon, Zinzi Mandela, who was there in the house, indicated to them that one of the youths had quote "escaped" unquote, and they regarded that statement as being fairly significant because of the implications of the word "escaped", if you apply it to people who are there of their own free will. They chose to ignore this remark but they noted it. When the access was granted to the youths, they noted that Pelo and Thabiso had fresh wounds on their bodies, that Katiza did not. All three youths maintained that they were there of their own free will, that they had been subjected to sexual advances by Paul Verryn. MR VALLY Bishop, if you could just move from there to page 4, go to Friday the 13th of January, please. MR STOREY MR VALLY Sorry, Bishop, I will be pushing you along in some places. MR STOREY By all means, sir. MR VALLY Could you please go on to the meeting with the Crisis Committee again. MR STOREY MR VALLY Bishop, just on this point, if you say you felt you were in a hostage situation with trying to negotiate the release of the youngsters without any harm coming to them, who in your perception or from your knowledge was the hostage-taker? MR STOREY There was no doubt in my mind by this stage already that the person we were negotiating with and dealing with was Mrs Mandela. MR VALLY Please go on to page 5. If you could on page 5, just deal with the first two paragraphs and then the last paragraph before Saturday the 14th of January. MR STOREY The Crisis Committee having refused to assist in a habeas corpus operation, left us really in great difficulty about how to proceed, but they did give the assurance - and I think this is where we thought the next step might be - that there would be a calling together of the whole community leadership in the area as soon as possible. And I interpreted that as an attempt to engage the involvement of a much wider circle of community leaders in trying to resolve the problem, and I was grateful at least for that possibility. I also asked them to send a message to Mrs Mandela via Ismail Ayob, who was her lawyer at that time, that the safety of the children was being very carefully monitored by the church and the community - it was really a warning, it was simply an attempt to say, anything untoward - further untoward - that happens to these children, is going to be very, very carefully monitored. It was just an attempt to try and guarantee their safety. Then you want me to go on, sir, to where? MR VALLY Please go on to Saturday the 14th. MR STOREY Saturday the 14th? Well, ...[intervention] MR VALLY MR STOREY No. MR VALLY Please do that first. MR STOREY And we made a decision that I would not go, first of all because in her home the children were still virtually in detention and would not be free to tell the truth to me, and, secondly, because I had made a commitment to work with the community each step of the way and I had not been able to consult with the community about this visit to her home. And then later I got a phone call from - I think, Mr Haysom, my lawyer, to say that Mrs Mandela had refused to release them and they would not be coming out that night. I await your guidance, sir. MR VALLY MR STOREY On Sunday the 15th of January, Mr Ayob went to see Mrs Mandela and was again unsuccessful in obtaining the release of the youths. We were very, very frustrated by this time, and we were willing to try any method we could - any avenue, so that afternoon the Reverend Sizwe Mbabane and Mr John Reece and myself went to see Doctor Nthatho Motlana, who had just come back from Lusaka and had discussed this matter with ANC leadership there. Doctor Motlana first of all said he was extremely glad I had not gone to the home the day before. He confirmed to me that when he had first visited Mrs Mandela, she had not given access to the youths, and he agreed that he would have one more attempt and try later in that day. Then a little later in the day I received a message from Mr John Reece, which had come via Mrs Albertina Sisulu who he had seen the previous evening, and the message was to the Reverend Paul Verryn that he must stay out of Soweto because his life was definitely in danger. He replied that his instructions were that they must be released unconditionally, and there was a fierce disagreement apparently, and they left with the children still in their custody. On Monday the 16th of January, sometime in the morning, they were handed to Doctor Motlana and they wanted to go to the mission house, but he refused. He then - through Mr John Reece at 3.30 in the afternoon, I got a call that Doctor Motlana was taking the youths to the offices of Krish Naidoo in Johannesburg. He said:quote: "There are four of them and one seems high on drugs" unquote. I then spent a little while getting hold of two community leaders because I wanted credible community leaders to be present when these youths were handed over. There was a long discussion in the office. Mr Krish Naidoo indicated that these kids just want to lay allegations about Paul Verryn. And I replied that I would certainly listen to any allegations very, very carefully, but that I would also be having questions I would want to ask them about the circumstances of how they left the mission house, and who did it and why. Then Mr Naidoo indicated they wanted to get clothes at the mission house, and I indicated that that could happen. Somebody could fetch the clothes for them. I then in the meantime had heard that this promised community meeting at last was taking place that night at a secret venue, and it seemed to me fortuitous that these events had coincided. And I indicated to the youths that this meeting was about to take place that evening, and that it was to address the whole issue of how they had left the mission house and why, and whether there were true allegations against Reverend Verryn, and all the other things surrounding this crisis, and, therefore, would they be willing to come to that meeting? Krish Naidoo then offered to look after Katiza and said: "Can I take you into my care", and he agreed to that. So at about 5.15 after a fairly tense hour or so in that office, I left with Gabriel (Pelo) and Thabiso, and we walked a block or so up to the Central Methodist Mission where the two civic leaders were waiting. The man who later I discovered was Jerry Richardson followed us and then peeled off and went his way. And it was clear that, when he had finally left the scene, there was a little bit more relaxation on the part of these two. In the meantime I had instructed Reverend Paul Verryn that he was not to communicate in any way with the released youths until after the community meeting had had a chance to question them. So we got them some food, and then I drove them - and it was one of those things that happened in those days, you went to one place and they told you another place and you went to another place and they told you another place, and we finally ended up at the Catholic Hall in Dobsonville. In the car the two of them volunteered the following information: they never wanted to go back to the Mandela house, that they were badly beaten and the phrase that sticks with me is the phrase: "Our eyes could not see for a week". They were worried about Stompie, and they had been told to accuse Paul Verryn or be killed. They were also assaulted by Mrs Mandela herself and their companion earlier they revealed to me was Jerry, who they said is the worst of them all. Then we got to the meeting, which finally started at about 7.30 in Dobsonville. There were some significant church persons there, Father Lafont, a Catholic priest, Reverend Mbande of the Church of the Province, Reverend Bangula, a Methodist Minister, Mr Verryn was present, as was I. There were about 150 people there representing every civic movement and trade union around at the time. And there were also some people who had been invited to come from Temahole, where Stompie originated from, and from Ikageng, where I think Thabiso and Pelo came from - their civics were represented - and the Crisis Committee was there. There were also present at that meeting, 9 or 10 young people who had lived in the mission house at Orlando West and had not been abducted. And there was a debate for a while about whether the meeting could take place or continue but it was finally decided to continue but Mr Naidoo was ... [Tape ends]