special Mandela United Football Club Hearings 1997-11-24 Johannesburg 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56332&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/mandela/mufc3b.htm "When I came back to the house, Stompie was missing." Unquote. Asked whether he thought Stompie was dead he answered "yes". Then Paul Verryn was asked to respond to the allegations of sexual, the allegation of sexual misconduct, and he denied the allegation. Then members of the Crisis Committee indicated that the only other youth to make such allegations when they met them in Mrs Mandela's house was Thabiso. He was then asked if he stood by that allegation against Mr Verryn, and he indicated that he withdrew it unconditionally, because he had been forced to say it. I then indicated to the meeting that, if there was any credible evidence of homosexual activity by Mr Verryn, I would have to institute proceedings against him, and I invited Thabiso and Gabriel or Pelo, and the nine other residents of the Verryn house to offer any allegations of any conduct, any conduct unbecoming of a Minister. Then another youth gave evidence. He had once belonged to the soccer team and had left. He related a long story about the team harassing him until they finally caught him and cut his throat with a pair of garden shears, and he indicated the recently stitched wound and said that he had been left for dead before managing to get assistance at a nearby hostel. MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY Do you know the name of this youth? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Please continue. BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY The meeting decided to confront Mrs Mandela as soon as possible about Stompie, while the trade unionists in the meeting said they were planning to march on her house on Tuesday, but they were persuaded not to do this and to allow the Crisis Team to continue to deal with the matter, and the Crisis Team agreed to see her first thing in the morning. Then one of the Youth Congress members made a speech to Mr Verryn, affirming him as one who was trusted by the community and indicating to him that he should forgive and let bygones be bygones, because, quote, "We have been in detention and we know how easy it is to say hurtful things under torture". He said, At the close of the meeting, which was after midnight, I lifted the restrictions on Paul Verryn seeing these youths, and he took them to the home of Dr and Mrs Connell where they stayed until the 21st of January, after which they were moved to the homes of other people. And during this period Paul continued to seek information about Stompie and contacted the Temahole Civic, and we wanted to see Stompie's parents. Thank you. MR VALLY Bishop, could you go on ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Please tell me what you want, sir? MR VALLY Sure. Could you go on to Friday the 18th, please? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Bishop Storey, if you could just leave your statement for a minute there. Move on to the 25th of January, please. BISHOP STOREY To the? MR VALLY 25th of January. BISHOP STOREY Do you wish me to go on to the next day, sir, or... MR VALLY Please go on to the 29th of January. BISHOP STOREY Twenty-ninth of January. Well, once this thing had broken, I found myself dealing on Friday and Saturday and Sunday with every print medium except the "Eskimo Times". It was everything in the world suddenly wanted news about this. It was a very difficult time, because we wanted to be as cautious as possible in the way this was aired, bearing in mind the sensitivity of it all, but I had to do interviews with many, many TV and newspaper reporters, and decided that I would want to focus on the question, "Where is Stompie?". That was our concern, and that was the issue that should be lifted up here, and so, as far as possible, tried to make that the focus of every interview. Now, the Sunday Times ... (intervention). MR VALLY Sorry, Bishop Storey. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY ... was, to your knowledge, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela making statements to the press in this period? BISHOP STOREY I know that by Sunday 29 the Sunday Times carried a headline and a story in which Mrs Mandela linked the murder of Dr Asvat with the church on grounds that he was to be her expert witness about the sexual abuse that she was alleging, and the City Press that day also carried a story which focused very much on the sexual side of this drama. So, yes, she was. MR VALLY Just for the record, ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY As regards the statement made in the Sunday Times of the 29th of January, this was put to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I asked her this question, page 101 of the second inquiry, and I will very briefly tell you what her response was. I asked her, "Your statement in the Sunday Times linking the murder of Dr Asvat to Stompie's death, stating that he was killed, because he was the person who could prove the allegations of sodomy. What was the basis for that allegation?" Mrs Mandela replied, I then quoted the actual Sunday Times article, and the section I quoted was the bit which was in quotation marks. "Dr Asvat was the only professional witness to back my story that the boys, allegedly kept against their will in my house, were, in fact, victims of abuse. I gave them shelter as is my duty as a social worker." End of quote. Did you ever make such a statement to the Sunday Times reporter?". Ms Madikizela-Mandela replied, Can you tell me, when you referred to the statement regarding Dr Asvat's death, on the 29th of January 1989, ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY ... do you have any basis for believing that the statement was, in fact, made by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Please go on. Just complete what you were saying about Sunday the 29th and then go on to Tuesday the 31st, please. BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Please go on to Wednesday, the 1st of February. BISHOP STOREY On Wednesday the 1st of February, Paul Verryn and myself visited Stompie's mother in Parys, in that morning, and it became clear to us, once we met with her, that nobody had actually told her of the events surrounding her son, and we had to be the people who broke the news to her of the abduction and of the treatment, which we understood, Stompie had received, and of his disappearance, and we indicated that while we could not give up hope, the outlook was very grim. And she spoke of her faith in God and the way that God had looked after Stompie in the past, and I asked her if she wished to work through our lawyers or her lawyers to bring pressure to bear for news of Stompie, and she indicated she would do this. Then that afternoon I released a second statement, because up to now we had not, in fact, referred to the assaults in any press statement. We were trying to be, we tried to hold this thing as tight as we could, but I heard that Mrs Mandela had now given a television interview attacking the church, attacking the South African Council of Churches for, quote, "Covering up events with the football team for the sake of overseas funding." We have, I saw a copy of that later, and there is a lot more detail to the attacks that she made. I found myself seeing all sorts of journalists about this, and I then went to see Beyers Naude to find out whether the Crisis Team had made any further progress. We were becoming extremely frustrated. MR VALLY Bishop Storey, ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY ... at this point what was your response to this? Initially you wanted to bring a court application, a habeas corpus application for Mr Seipei's release. Now press information was being blocked, what was your response? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Please go on. BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Very briefly on the video, but thereafter? BISHOP STOREY I took these words down verbatim from the NBC tape. Xoliswa brought the boys, especially the traumatised child, because she panicked when he said ...", quote, "The only way to deal with this White man is to kill him." "The focus should have been on Paul Verryn and the SACC. The SACC are worried about their image, because, when people discover that Paul Verryn is not very well, their overseas funding will be affected. This is a problem of the church rather than any football team. We thought we were assisting the church in a problem and their only interest is covering their image." These are some of the things that were said by Mrs Mandela on that tape. Later in that day I had further consultations with our lawyers and that we should, perhaps, try not to be too negative about the proposed meeting that Dominee Naude had spoken about, but that I must go into that meeting ready to confront Mrs Mandela with all the evidence that we had, especially in relation to the actions and things said by the football team around the removal of Stompie. MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY I beg your pardon? MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY Dominee Naude reported that they had met with Mrs Mandela earlier, and indicated one, "If possible, we would like to see to it that misunderstandings are removed and to move forward in unity for the sake of the community, the church, the Mandela family, and Paul". They had conveyed to her the outcome of Crisis Committee investigations into the alleged events surround the abduction and Paul, and it was the intention of the Crisis Committee to get a meeting with the church and to tell her that the church has evidence which may or may not conflict with theirs. They were also aware of an urgent need to report to the community, and they were reporting to me that Mrs Mandela was willing to enter into a, quote, "wider discussion", They also reported how Katiza had confirmed that he had not been assaulted and had participated in assaulting the others, and also that he said he saw Stompie being taken out in bad condition. They also reported to her of their meeting with Xoliswa. She admitted she was the one who had informed Winnie and pointed the children out when they were fetched. She was there, also, when they denied sexual abuse and, quote, "Had to be given a few klaps," unquote, to get them to admit it and it, to admit that it had happened to them. Xoliswa had been asked whether she had actually witnessed any sexual abuse, and her answer included that Stompie had once reported to her that Thabiso had interfered with him. Katiza had once reported to her about Paul, and Gabriel sometimes used to sleep in Paul's room. She, therefore, assumed he was party to these activities. Beyers then reported that Winnie responded about Stompie. She was informed that the police yesterday took action in arresting, quote, "an ex-Captain of the then football club", unquote. She expects that there will be further arrests. She indicated that now it was in the hands of the police, and there was little more that she or the Crisis Committee could do. With regard to Katiza, she indicated she had laid a charge and it was now in the hands of the police. She said that ... CHAIRPERSON MR VALLY Please go ahead, Bishop Storey. BISHOP STOREY Beyers Naude then reported that Mrs Mandela, after all of this, pointed to the fact that here again was an example of a situation where people, for their own ends, present possible information where it can be used against other people. She recalled the Cilliers Commission in Brandfort where a similar thing happened. The Committee then asked her specifically with regard to the Mandela Football Club that the children be put into the care of the Crisis Committee and relieve her of the responsibility. She was adamant that the club had been disbanded long ago. I also took exception to suggestions that we had run to the press and pointed out that both statements issued by us had been issued only in response to major attacks on the church by Mrs Mandela, and we agreed that I would consult on Friday morning, and that a meeting date with Mrs Mandela was set tentatively for three p.m. on the Friday. I would phone Beyers Naude at 11 a.m. to confirm or cancel that date. That afternoon I and Paul went, met two Maholi representatives to tell them about the visit to Stompie's mother, and this was the day that the Business Day carried a very full statement by myself responding to the long list of allegations that Mrs Mandela had made. I think I just need to say that, to close off this section, that on Friday we met in the hope, fully expecting to meet with Mrs Mandela and the Crisis Committee at 2.45, and Mrs Mandela failed to arrive. MR VALLY If you could just go to your further record now. When was Stompie's body finally identified? BISHOP STOREY On the ninth, as far as I can recall. After an anonymous call to the South African Police on the sixth of January, his body had been found, and was identified around the ninth. MR VALLY Can you tell us what happened on the 14th of February involving Ms Chili? BISHOP STOREY Around that time the, we had received messages, the day before the 14th, that the football team was out on the hunt and so we collected all the young people we knew had anything to fear, we thought, and we happened to be having a Ministers Retreat in a country place outside in the Magaliesberg at that time, and we brought all those young people out to join us there to get them out of Soweto, away from the risk. The next day I received news of an attack on Dudu Chili's house where a woman and a 13-year-old girl died, and also news of the killing of one football team member. MR VALLY Can you tell us what happened on the 16th of February? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY Sorry, where was that? MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY Can you report to us on your notes on that date? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY Can you tell us about your notes on Sunday the 19th of February 1989? BISHOP STOREY They also, in that letter to Mr Tambo, report on the fact that they had been able to break one of the youths and get an admission that this had been a kidnap and that he had participated in the beatings. The Central Methodist Mission was sprayed with graffiti that day. MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY I want to go into one last issue. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY On the 23rd of February 1989, Bishop Stanley Mogoba went to see ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY ... Mr Nelson Mandela in prison, and he took a brief memorandum with him. Do you have a copy of that with you? BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY If you could briefly read out the ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY ... memorandum as well as the response you got ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY ... thereto. BISHOP STOREY MR VALLY If you look at underneath the typed version, there are your handwritten notes. BISHOP STOREY Dr Mogoba conveyed this, the essence of those points to Mr Mandela, who sent a message to me in reply via Dr Mogoba. Dr Mogoba simply related to me his conversation, and the conversation is that Mr Mandela said, "The fault is hers. I owe an apology to the church, but why could not Bishop Peter have come closer to her instead of it being discussed in the press?" Mogoba says, "I testified to attempts to meet her, and he, in fact, was present on the day that she failed to appear." Mandela says, Mogoba says, "She is the one who broke press silence." Mandela, "Yes, I see." Mogoba, "We are under great pressure from community and church for answers on the whole issue." Mandela, Mogoba, "It has merits, but it may be too late." Mandela, "I thank the church for what it has done over all the years." MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA No, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Just wait a bit. Peter, you can use the ... (intervention) BISHOP STOREY Oh. CHAIRPERSON ... headphones, then you can, if you use channel two. BISHOP STOREY Sorry. MR SEMENYA No, what I meant is, even you, as a leader, Bishop, if you had had information that there are children who are being sexually molested, you would have taken that to be a serious problem. Is that right? BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA And I think you would have done all you could to make sure that this difficulty does not visit the children? Is that right? BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA And you would have summoned all type of help to try to bring relief to these type of children? Is that right? BISHOP STOREY Well, I would have first tried to find out if it was true. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA And if we knew that Jerry Richardson is a police informant in 1988, is it reasonable to expect that Mrs Mandela would not have stayed with Jerry Richardson? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Really, Bishop, are you saying that Mrs Mandela in 1988 ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Well, it would depend on whether she approved of his behaviour or not. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Bishop, let me put it this way. Are you saying that you have reason to believe Mrs Mandela knew that Jerry Richardson is an informer at that time? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Bishop, do you have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela would have known in January of 1989 that Jerry Richardson killed Stompie? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Yes, yes, I think she did. MR SEMENYA What is the basis for your, what reason do you have to that conclusion? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Well, you seem to say Stompie was killed in her house. Where do you take that one from? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Well, what ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Yes. BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA You would offer that as a reasonable inference that she knew that Stompie's body was lying somewhere there? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY That Mrs Mandela received information from Ms Falati that something wrong was going on in the manse? MR SEMENYA Yes. BISHOP STOREY Is that the question? MR SEMENYA Yes. BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Do you have any reason to believe that at that time Mrs Mandela ought to have known that there was no substance to this accusation? BISHOP STOREY No, not necessarily. She may have believed them. MR SEMENYA Do you have reason to believe that, even when the boys came public to say that they were molested, Mrs Mandela must have known that that allegation by them was factually incorrect? BISHOP STOREY Could you repeat that question? MR SEMENYA Do you have reason to believe that, when the boys accused Bishop Verryn of sexual molestation, that Mrs Mandela ought to have known that they were lying? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA No, even if they were saying it out of coercion, as we now know, do you have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela, at that time, knew that that information is incorrect? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Well, let us test that information. The very first time the information goes to Mrs Mandela is through Falati, who is not beaten. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA So, at that moment there is no reason for caution. Am I correct? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Now, something that you say, also, catches my attention. Because of a particular incident that Attorney Krish Naidoo brings Katiza with him, and you see fear and trepidation in the eyes of those who were there ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA ... you began to be suspicious of Krish Naidoo as well? Am I correct? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA And now we know that your suspicion about him was ill-founded. Is that right? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Are you suggesting ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Order, please. MR SEMENYA Are you suggesting that Attorney Krish Naidoo had something to do with the disappearance of the children and that ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Are you saying what gave rise to your suspicion is because he was a legal representative to ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Oh yes. MR SEMENYA ... to Mrs Mandela. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR VALLY MR SEMENYA MR VALLY The objection was very clear. Mr Ismail Semenya talked about Mr Krish Naidoo being the legal representative of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. I pointed out that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself has said in the Section 29 in camera inquiry that Mr Krish Naidoo was never her attorney. MR SEMENYA The only question I had asked the witness, is were you suspicious of Krish Naidoo because he was ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA ... a representative of Mrs Mandela. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA How does this objection arise? CHAIRPERSON I think you said "legal". I think you said "legal representative". MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY I was having a meeting, I understood, with the Crisis Committee prior to our meeting, our first meeting, finally achieved, with Mrs Mandela, which was going to take place in a matter of minutes. This was a preparatory meeting. Now, I would have fully expected Mr Naidoo to be present, and properly so, when the Crisis Committee accompanied by the church met with Mrs Mandela. I had MR SEMENYA Chairperson, may this be a convenient time to take a lunch adjournment? CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA Can I, Chairperson, ask for a two-minute adjournment then? CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS MR SEMENYA ... formation of the football team. Do you have information to gainsay that? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Now, I have had an opportunity to discuss with Reverend Chikane, and my understanding is the formation of the Crisis Committee, why it was even called Crisis Committee was because the house of Mandela was burnt. Is this consistent with your understanding? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA The mention of the Crisis Committee, as often as I have seen it, is given in the context that the crisis was the children who were abducted. BISHOP STOREY No, no, I was introduced to this group by Mr Chikane. I had not heard of them before, I had nothing to do with them before, I was not part of any of the Crisis Committee's activities or work prior to this abduction, but when Mr Chikane asked me whether the church would co-operate with, work with and through the community, that was the first time I was introduced to the Crisis Committee. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY No, no, I had no idea why it was called the Crisis Committee. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA I beg your pardon? BISHOP STOREY I said we were living in perpetual crisis at the time, so the use of that word for a Committee would not have been unusual or surprising to me. MR SEMENYA And, according to my information, that house was burnt arising out of a dispute that occurred on a soccer field, because some of the other team members were, in fact, schooling in Daliwonga. BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA In some of your answers it comes out that children were refused access, I mean, this terminology you use suggests that the movement of the boys was restricted. In my understanding, it would seem the restriction to their movement that was there was because of Jerry Richardson. BISHOP STOREY No, not at all. My understanding, and it is based, as you correctly said at the outset of your cross-examination, it is based on reports I received from members of the Crisis Committee on their return from the Mandela house, and I want to say that it is quite clear, my recollection is absolutely clear, that the decisions as to whether access would be given, were Mrs Mandela's decisions. She made the decision, she was the one who said, no, you cannot see them, she was the one who said, yes, you may see them, to the various people who came seeking access to them. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Oh yes. MR SEMENYA And they seemed a little bit more relaxed when he was not on site. BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Only, the only independent evidence I have of that, the only evidence I have of that at all, is that he accompanied them to Krish Naidoo's office on the day they were handed over, and, clearly, he had some role in their freedom or lack of freedom that day. It seemed to me he was an escort. However, he took no part in the discussion and, therefore, had no influence on whether those young people were handed over to me or not. The only influence he had was, at one point, I seem to recall him angrily and impatiently talking about the time, and that this must be got over with. So, I have no other evidence that he was the one who decided things. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY I think one could assume that from his role when I met him, yes. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MS SOOKA Page six. CHAIRPERSON Page six. BISHOP STOREY Page six. You would help me if you, sir, could tell me exactly what paragraph in my document you are referring to. MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY Okay. MR SEMENYA ... Mrs Mandela would have agreed to release the children on certain conditions. BISHOP STOREY MR SOOKA Mr Semenya, I think if you read on page six, it says that, "Ayob replies that his instructions are that the children must be released unconditionally.". BISHOP STOREY "I was phoned by Mr Haysom. He asked me to prepare accommodation. Then Xoliswa, Jerry and ...", Are you asking me where I received that information from? MR SEMENYA No, whether your evidence is that Mrs Mandela would have said the children would be released under certain conditions? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Who was their escort, by the way? BISHOP STOREY The escort was, to my knowledge, Xoliswa Falati and Jerry Richardson. MR SEMENYA At least at the place where this happened, there is no suggestion that Mrs Mandela had anything to do with their movement, the movement of these children. BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA Now, already Xoliswa Falati happens to be who she is. We know Richardson admits to certain of the murders. Is there any basis to suggest that, at that time, anyone other than Xoliswa Falati and Richardson had inhibited this boys to go wherever they would have chosen to? BISHOP STOREY Yes, as I said before, the evidence that suggests somebody in addition to them, is the evidence that was brought to me repeatedly by the Crisis Committee that the person who gave them permission or withheld it to see the youngsters was Mrs Mandela. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me, please. I suspect, I mean, that you will be wanting to continue with Bishop Storey for quite a bit, and maybe the hope that we would have finished by lunch time was forlorn, and, therefore, I suggest that we break now, and we will have to have a shorter lunch than usual. If we can try to be back at two. Is that okay? Thank you very much for the democratic ... [end of tape 3b] HEARING ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Order, please. All right. Peter Storey. Please just settle. You are still under oath. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Semenya. Maybe just - Hello. Please just sit down. Passengers are not allowed to be walking up and down the aisles. Thank you very much. Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA Bishop, just finally, my information is that immediately Mrs Mandela came back from seeing Mr Mandela on that particular day the dissolution of the club was discussed, it was dissolved on that particular day, and the secretary of the team, at that time, one Absalom Madonsela(?), who is now in Jongkop, dissolved and even destroyed the records of the team. Do you have information to the contrary? BISHOP STOREY No, sir. MR SEMENYA And that no soccer was played beyond that time? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA That it is possible that various individuals would have been described as members of the football team where no football at that time was played at all? BISHOP STOREY MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes. MR KADES Bishop Storey, my name is Norman Kades, I represent the Asvat family. Bishop, [inaudible], I represent the family of the late Dr Abu-Baker Asvat who, as you know, was murdered on the 27th of January of 1989. The family, Bishop, still seek answers to numerous questions that have been raised over the years, answers which have never, questions which have never been satisfactorily answered in so far as the family is concerned. Maybe, Bishop, you can assist us with regard to some of those outstanding matters. BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Well, Bishop, with regard to the information that you have and certain information that we have, which may not be, coincide with the information that you have, maybe you can assist us. You have told us of the meeting on Monday of the 16th of January of 1989, 10 days, 11 days prior to the murder of Dr Asvat. At that meeting you have told us of the arrival of Krish Naidoo, the attorney accompanied by Katiza Cebekhulu. BISHOP STOREY Yes, sir. MR KADES Did you know, at that stage, that Katiza Cebekhulu was the one who had originally accused Paul Verryn of having sodomised him? BISHOP STOREY I think so, yes. MR KADES You had access to Katiza Cebekhulu at that stage? BISHOP STOREY Oh, no. MR KADES Not at all? BISHOP STOREY No, the only time I met him was in Krish Naidoo's office when he ... (intervention). MR KADES Yes. BISHOP STOREY ... in fact, refused to come with me. MR KADES Well, Krish Naidoo arrived with him that evening of the 16th. Did he also leave with him or did he leave him in the custody of someone other than ... BISHOP STOREY MR KADES BISHOP STOREY No. MR KADES ... Cebekhulu that evening? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES He did make a statement, did he not? BISHOP STOREY In front of the meeting? MR KADES He, yes, in front ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KADES ... of the meeting. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KADES BISHOP STOREY MR KADES When did you first have access to Cebekhulu, do you recall? BISHOP STOREY The only time I met him, the only time I met him was the afternoon of the 16th when I went to meet these youths at the office of Krish Naidoo. MR KADES Yes, thank you. Did you ever meet the late Dr Asvat? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Yes. BISHOP STOREY ... there were people you ran into at certain meetings and occasions in those days. MR KADES BISHOP STOREY MR KADES BISHOP STOREY No, sir. MR KADES And the accusations by the boys that they had been sodomised? BISHOP STOREY No, sir. MR KADES When you read the news, the Sunday Times of the 29th of January and the headline which linked the church to the murder of Dr Asvat, did you make any enquiries or any investigations concerning the evidence which might have been in the possession of Dr Asvat? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Well, the second paragraph of the entry, of your entry on the 29th of January is that you convened or you set about convening a meeting with key community members and ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Oh yes, yes. MR KADES ... and that you also spoke to Dr Motlana. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KADES This was, obviously, a most disturbing, as you have told us, accusation against the church and a matter which concerned you very greatly, and you had to deal with it. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KADES Can you tell us who these community leaders were at that meeting that you set about meeting? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Well, well, ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Please. BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Yes. BISHOP STOREY ... about such evidence not being possible. MR KADES And when you talk of convening a meeting with key community leaders, is it correct to assume that the key community leaders you speak of were the members of the Crisis Committee who were concerned in this matter and with whom you had had dealings throughout this period? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Yes. BISHOP STOREY So, you actually had two groups of people. You had the Crisis Committee, who had been entrusted with handling this crisis, but you also had other community leaders who ... (intervention). MR KADES (...Indistinct). BISHOP STOREY ... vacillated sometimes in terms of the degree to which they believed the Crisis Committee was doing its job. MR KADES Yes, who had an agenda maybe different to that of what the Crisis Committee might have been perceived to have at the time? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES BISHOP STOREY Thank you. MR KADES ... but presumably ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Then I will not respond. MR KADES ... presumably members of the Crisis Committee will tell us why they were not available. These people that you mention here, Dan M, Nat R, Stewart Ngwenya and Elias, are those people whom you regarded as ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Community ... (intervention). MR KADES ... as key community leaders ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes, I think ... (intervention). MR KADES ... at the time? BISHOP STOREY I think the right word to use is underground community leaders. MR KADES Did you ever have any discussions with any members of the Crisis Committee, and, please, if you did, will you name them, concerning the murder of Dr Asvat and their investigations into that murder? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES BISHOP STOREY MR KADES But not even in general discussions concerning the events of that period, do you recall anything? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Yes. BISHOP STOREY CHAIRPERSON MR KADES The statement of the 16th of February 1989, the Mass Democratic Press Conference which you have referred to. BISHOP STOREY Yes, sir. MR KADES Did you ever receive or find any information relating to the reason for the making of that statement, the reasons behind that press conference, did any member of the Crisis Committee ever discuss that with you, tell you what their findings were ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY No. MR KADES ... that led to the statement? BISHOP STOREY MR KADES Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Any other? Yes. MR KUNY Chairperson, I just have one ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Who am I speaking to, sir? MR KUNY It is Mr Kuny representing Ms Falati. I just have, there is just one issue that I would like to clarify with you. On page 12 of your memorandum you refer to the fact that you go home and view a video. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY And you then proceed to describe in some detail what appears to be what Mrs Mandela had said on that video. Is that correct? I wonder if you could just perhaps ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY ... have a look at page 12 ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY ... at the top, the first paragraph. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY And it starts, "In the video Mrs Mandela ... (intervention). BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY ... claims. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY And then about six or seven lines down there appears to be, what appears to be a quote, "The tragedy is the issue of the Reverend Paul Verryn that there ... (intervention) BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY "... is a medical problem". BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY You actually gave evidence about that. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR KUNY BISHOP STOREY I think it is a verbatim, you know, I've put it in quotes, and I think it is verbatim what Mrs Mandela, it's not everything she said at all but it seemed to me to be the meat and the heart of what was particularly of concern to me, which was the references to Paul Verryn and the Church and cover-ups and things like that ...(intervention) MR VALLY BISHOP STOREY MR KUNY BISHOP STOREY MR KUNY Thank you, Bishop. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR UNTERHALTER Bishop Storey, David Unterhalter for the Chili family. Might I refer you to page 8 of your memorandum and the penultimate paragraph on that page? You will recall that in your testimony you referred to this passage, which was at the meeting which was held on the 16th of January, and just to refresh your memory you say the following "This was followed by evidence from another youth who had once belonged to the soccer team and had left. He related a long story about the team harassing him until they finally caught him and cut his throat with a pair of gardening shears. He indicated the recently stitched wound and said that he had been left for dead before managing to get assistance at a nearby hostel". You weren't certain as to the identity of that person. Is it possible, I know it's some time ago and hard to recall, but is it possible that that person was Lerathodi Ikaneng? BISHOP STOREY Yes. MR UNTERHALTER Then next, Bishop Storey, if I might then just refer you to your further record which you indicated was based on your diary, rough notes, and press reports, and the entry next to Tuesday the 14th of February 1989, you will see there, and as you explained that, I think your words were, that the Mandela Football Club was on the hunt, I think those were your words, but in any event you then reflect the following. You say "News of an attack on Dudu Chili house, woman and 13-year-old girl shot. House burnt. Also killing of one Football Team member". Is it possible that the date that you have there might have brought together two separate events? Because my client's version of this will be that the house was in fact attacked and set alight on the 28th of February, but that the incident with the Football Team member was on the 13th of February. Is it possible that there's a confusion of dates in this rough record? BISHOP STOREY It is possible. MR UNTERHALTER Thank you, Bishop. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Richard. MR Might I ask just one question please, I beg your indulgence just for the one. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR Bishop, during this period and all the meetings that you've had with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, the meetings at which she was present, did she ever tell you or tell the meeting that on the day of the 29th of December of 1988 that she had not been present at her home and that she had been in Brandfort all day? BISHOP STOREY MR Did you not meet her at all during this period? BISHOP STOREY No. MR Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard. MR RICHARD BISHOP STOREY Which meeting, sir? MR RICHARD It's the meeting at Krish Naidoo's office on the 16th. BISHOP STOREY Incorrect, Miss Falati wasn't there. MR RICHARD BISHOP STOREY No. MR RICHARD I beg your pardon I withdraw the question. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, yes. Hanif. MR VALLY Are you asking me if I want to re-examine? CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR VALLY No, thank you. CHAIRPERSON No. MR VALLY I did want to say though that Bishop Storey has indicated that he had a statement he wants to read out and maybe this is an appropriate time to do that. MR RICHARD After conferring with my colleague, I request permission to persist with that question. It's only one. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD The question is, at your meeting where Mr Richardson was present, did he present himself as a person in authority or as a mere minion? BISHOP STOREY MR RICHARD BISHOP STOREY MR RICHARD Thank you. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Hlengiwe. MS MKHIZE And then also in your points to the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ask one question and then let him answer. MS MKHIZE It's easy, he will break it up, Chairperson. On point No.13 you say this is the latest ...(intervention) BISHOP STOREY Is this in my notes to President Mandela? MS MKHIZE Yes. BISHOP STOREY Yes. MS MKHIZE BISHOP STOREY No, I will answer the second question first. These are shorthand notes, this is an exact replica of notes I made to convey to Bishop Magoba by telephone. So the sentences mustn't be read as if they make perfect English sense. By the time we had reached this stage in trying to deal with this crisis, I had become aware of many other incidents involving particularly the Football Team, because you can't deal with one aspect of what they are alleged to have done without then people saying, oh yes, but I mean this isn't the first time that there's this and that, and I had been to the meeting, and I had listened to somebody talk about how they had cut their throat, and so on. So I was saying to Mr Mandela, you need to know that this is not an isolated incident. That's the first thing. The capitals is simply saying to Mr Mandela, this is a common-law crime, this is not a political thing. One understands the atmosphere we were living in and the capacity and possibility of people to do things under political pressure and for political reasons which this Commission is uncovering and dealing with all the time, and I think understanding very often why people did things. This was a common-law crime. This was kidnapping, and he needed to understand that this was not a political harassment going on here, or a political issue. Fundamentally it was a common-law crime. Now your earlier question is harder to answer, because I feel even now the dilemma that I was in when I get a message that Mrs Mandela wants to see me. But I had made a commitment, I had made a commitment to work with the community. I had sat listening to the Crisis Committee, consisting of people who had far, far more senior positions in the movement, people who had enjoyed much more respect in the community than I did, who had gone to that home and been completely stone-walled and had achieved nothing. Some of them had gone as a group. The question was whether I going alone into that place would have achieved anything. That was one question. CHAIRPERSON Khoza. MR MGOJO Thank you, Bishop. Dr Storey, I want to refer you to the secrecy meeting of the Crisis Committee (...indistinct) and you've said there was a (...indistinct) part of that Committee in the name of Krish Naidoo. BISHOP STOREY Ja. MR MGOJO And when he was asked why he was in that meeting, he said he was a go-between. In the context of that meeting, what did you understand that to mean? BISHOP STOREY MR MGOJO Did he say who had sent him to be in that meeting? BISHOP STOREY No, I can't remember whether he did say that. MR MGOJO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You have a statement you have said you wanted to ...(intervention) BISHOP STOREY And, sir, somebody once said, it is not enough to become politically liberated, we must also become human. This case is about becoming human again and recognising the inhumanities which some of us were capable of because of the times we used to live in. I want to thank this Commission and you, sir, if I may, for the words of affirmation given to my colleague and successor as Bishop, Paul Verryn. I don't know if anyone will ever know what it is like for seven years to see your name used by the media consistently and without (...indistinct) in spite of the fact that the allegations made against him have been thrown out by two judges, that the media has never used the name of Mr Verryn without associating him with the words sodomy or rape. I think that's disgraceful, and I hope, sir, we've seen the end to that, and that this amazing Christian who served the people of this land will be able to walk from this place knowing he has been exonerated. And in connection with that, sir, I want to say I admire him for the grace with which he has borne this burden. To my knowledge, sir, everybody who has publicly accused him of these dreadful misdemeanours has withdrawn those words except one - it is my hope that before these hearings are ended that last remaining accuser will use this opportunity to withdraw her words and to take back the accusations that she made against him. Finally, sir, I want to also express, as I did a little earlier, my deep admiration for an understanding of the dilemma faced by the internal leaders at the time of this crisis. I don't think anybody can with hindsight even begin to feel the pain that they had in trying to deal with this crisis and what it cost them. And if there are those who would accuse [indistinct] others of not having acted quite as decisively as he should, or perhaps having made a decision here or there which could have been different, then I just need to try and live myself back into those moments. CHAIRPERSON We now call Steve Mabelane. MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Let me start then by welcoming you and thanking you, because we were going to have had you yesterday, but you and your legal representative have been able to arrange that you would return today. Now Yasmin Sooka is going to administer the oath. JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE (sworn in) CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller. MR MILLER Thank you, Chairperson. May I first inform Mr Sithole, as Chairperson has stated, it is your right to speak English, but if you feel more at home at any stage in your own language, please don't hesitate to switch to it. Now did you know Mrs Winnie Mandela? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR MILLER Where did you meet her, under what circumstances? MR SITHOLE I met Mrs Mandela somewhere late in 1987 and circumstances therefore were my seeking of assistance because I was a scholar by then. CHAIRPERSON Hello, hello! Order please. Please take that person out whoever it is. You are just disturbing the proceedings. (Individual removed for disturbing the proceedings). Order please. Mr Miller. MR MILLER Thank you, Chairperson. You say you were a scholar, what were you studying? MR SITHOLE In 1987 I was studying Standard 7 of which I wanted to pursue my studies further, and I went to Mrs Mandela for assistance financially, mentally and otherwise, of which she did assisted me by taking me to a school somewhere in Fordsburg. The name of the school was Perseverance. MR MILLER And you say, if I understand you correctly, that Mrs Mandela paid for your schooling? MR SITHOLE That's correct, yes. MR MILLER And where did you live at this time? MR SITHOLE Presently? MR MILLER No, at that time in 1987, where did you live? MR SITHOLE At that time I was living with my late grandmother in Orlando West. MR MILLER Ja, but did you move from there? MR SITHOLE I did move from my grandmother's place to live with Mrs Mandela, not for a long time. But I was somebody who moved time and again from Mrs Mandela to my place. MR MILLER I see, so when did you live with Mrs Mandela? MR SITHOLE It was - yes in 1987, I don't know the month, but it was late, somewhere in October and November. MR MILLER Was this in Orlando or was it in Diepkloof? MR SITHOLE It was still in Orlando West. MR MILLER And at a certain stage Mrs Mandela's house burnt down. MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR MILLER And what happened then, did you go and move in her new house? MR SITHOLE No, sir, I didn't move with Mrs Mandela. I set up my study, staying then with my parents in Orlando East. MR MILLER I see, but did you still visit Mrs Mandela after you moved out? MR SITHOLE MR MILLER I see, so during 1998, did you see or visit Mrs Mandela at all? MR SITHOLE Yes, in fact not specifically her, but the friend of mine which I was studying, in addition to meet with Mrs Mandela, because she was the one who was facilitating the funds for our schooling. Then I had to have some talking with her. MR MILLER So in other words she continued to facilitate your studies even after you were no longer living with her? MR SITHOLE That's positive, yes. MR MILLER And you visited there from time to time. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR MILLER That was now in Diepkloof? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR MILLER Now during the time that you got to know Mrs Mandela, were you aware of the existence of the Mandela United Football Club? MR SITHOLE What I was aware of is the name of the Mandela Football Club, but to say to you presently that there were members of the Mandela United Football Club, I can't say it and I can't confirm it. MR MILLER Did you ever see this Football Club playing soccer? MR SITHOLE MR MILLER And it has been said at the hearings that members of this Football Club were involved in violent incidents. Can you comment on that? MR SITHOLE It's difficult for me to substantiate or comment on something that was out of my eyes, but as far as I know the comrades who were there, I don't remember even one making those things which are ...(indistinct) by other people. MR MILLER So you never witnessed any violent incidents? MR SITHOLE That's positive, yes. MR MILLER MR SITHOLE I think that's what I'm here for. Yes, I did, I was arrested. MR MILLER And did you pay bail? MR SITHOLE Yes, that's positive. MR MILLER And what happened after you paid bail? MR SITHOLE After I paid bail, well, because I was politically active in the location, somewhere in 1990 when the trial was supposed to happen, I left the country due to political activeness which I was involved, of which I didn't attend to the trial because I thought by then it was not necessary for me to attend the apartheid court. MR MILLER So were you in any way guilty of the crimes of which you were charged? MR SITHOLE That's negative, because even if that Stompie's thing happened, even if the abduction happened, I was not even in Winnie Mandela's place, because I think by that time it was the time when our schools were closed and I was at my place. MR MILLER So you know nothing about Stompie's kidnapping and/or murder? MR SITHOLE Yes, definitely. MR MILLER Do you know anything about any of the other incidents that have been mentioned? I'll just mention a couple a couple of them to you. For example do you know anything about the death of Lolo Sono? MR SITHOLE I think what I want the Commission to tell me is, what did they call me here, because it's my first time hearing about Lolo Sono in this Commission. MR MILLER You've never heard about this before? MR SITHOLE Yes, that's what I said. MR MILLER And Dudu Chili? Do you know anything about her? MR SITHOLE I know this Dudu because I'm not staying far away from - my grandmother in fact didn't stay away from her place where she was staying. MR MILLER But do you know anything about her house being burnt down, or something like that? MR SITHOLE Yes, as a member of the community, yes, I should know that because it was not far away from our place then. I know about it that the house was burnt. MR MILLER But you didn't witness it? MR SITHOLE No, definitely not. MR MILLER And Dr Asvat? MR SITHOLE I only heard about it. MR MILLER You were not in any way a witness to anything concerning his death? MR SITHOLE That's negative, I never witnessed anything concerning that. MR MILLER Thank you, Chairperson, no further ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Order please. Hanif? MR SITHOLE Ja, in fact before maybe I can be cross-questioned, there are some of the things which really disturb me, like for instance my presence in this Commission. I see it irrelevant for myself to be here. CHAIRPERSON Wait a bit, you will get it from him. You will hear why you are here. Order please. Hanif? MR VALLY Thank you, Arch. Mr Sithole, you were arrested on 19th of February 1989 at the household of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela together Jerry Richardson and two others? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY What were you arrested for? MR SITHOLE I was picked up in the yard of Mrs Mandela because that day on the 18th I slept at Mrs Mandela's place. Then the police came and picked up everybody who was sleeping there. MR VALLY Did you stay there regularly? MR SITHOLE That's negative. MR VALLY So was it the first time you stayed there? MR SITHOLE It was not the first time sleeping there, I sometimes slept there. MR VALLY How often did you sleep there? MR SITHOLE I can't say presently how often but sometimes maybe on weekends I used to sleep there and sometimes during the week when maybe we were studying with my friends. Then I can sleep. MR VALLY So you stayed there weekends and you stayed there sometimes during the week? MR SITHOLE That's positive. MR VALLY Where was your residence? MR SITHOLE My residence were in Orlando East and Orlando West because in fact I was (...indistinct) Orlando West. MR VALLY Did you also stay at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's houses in Orlando West? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir, as I've just stated that, not regularly. MR VALLY So you stayed in the house in Orlando West as well Diepkloof Extension? MR SITHOLE In Diepkloof Extension I used to visit, because I can't say, maybe I stayed there maybe for two or three or four consecutive days, but I used to be there sometimes for two days or one. MR VALLY You say that you had a friend who used to stay with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, who was this friend? MR SITHOLE That's Vusiso Mabuza. MR VALLY Did you have any relatives who stayed with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SITHOLE Can you repeat that question? MR VALLY Do you have any relatives who stayed with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SITHOLE Any relative presently, yes, I can say yes. MR VALLY Tell us who. MR SITHOLE That's Zinzi's son. MR VALLY How is he related to you? MR SITHOLE Sizwe Sithole, the father of the son is my - was my cousin, in fact. MR VALLY So you had a relative staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, namely Sizwe Sithole? MR SITHOLE Yes, that's positive. MR VALLY Do you know what you were charged with when you were arrested with Jerry Richardson and others? MR SITHOLE Definitely not. MR VALLY Did you make a warning statement? MR SITHOLE No. MR VALLY I want to show you a warning statement that you made to the police and tell me if you recognise that. MR MILLER I wonder, Chairperson, if I could have a copy please. MR VALLY It should be in your file, Mr Miller. MR VALLY Do you recognise your signature on that? MR SITHOLE I only recognise my name but not my signature. MR VALLY Did you ever appear in court in connection with your arrest? MR SITHOLE Yes, I did. MR VALLY Did they ask you to plead guilty or not guilty while you were in court? MR SITHOLE Yes, they did. MR VALLY What charges did they put to you? MR SITHOLE I can't understand the charges because I think the Commission mis-recognised my age by then. MR VALLY What was your age at the time? MR SITHOLE I was born in 1972, I think the Commissioner can just calculate along those lines. (General laughter) MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Order please. How good is your arithmetic? MR VALLY You were 17 at the time when you were arrested? MR SITHOLE That's what I think according to your calculation. MR VALLY Did you understand the charges put to you in court at the age of 17? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY When you appeared in court who did you appear with? MR SITHOLE I firstly appeared with a Mr Jerry Richardson. MR VALLY Do you know what Mr Jerry Richardson is doing now? MR SITHOLE According to my understanding he has been in prison for the murder of Stompie. MR VALLY Now if you know that Jerry is still in prison for the murder of Stompie, and you were in court with him, why are you trying to play games around this issue? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY I understand. What three charges? MR SITHOLE According to my knowledge it's kidnapping, assault and a murder. MR VALLY Thank you. The statement I've shown you just now that you made when you were arrested, do you agree you made a statement? MR SITHOLE No, in fact what is written there it's in Afrikaans, and I can't even read a sentence in Afrikaans, then I can't say it's my statement. MR VALLY Do you recognise your signature? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY I've just shown you your signature, do you recognise your signature? MR SITHOLE Yes, I can see my name. MR VALLY Is it your signature? MR SITHOLE No, it's not my signature. MR VALLY Do you remember putting your fingerprint onto a statement when you were arrested? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY Thank you. Do you know Lerathodi Ikaneng? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY How do you know him? MR SITHOLE He's an elder friend. MR VALLY Is he a friend of yours? MR SITHOLE He was my brother's friend, and in fact we are living in the same location. MR VALLY Are you aware of what happened to him? MR SITHOLE No, I don't have any idea. MR VALLY Have you met him recently? MR SITHOLE Recently, what do you mean? MR VALLY Last year. MR SITHOLE Yes, I did meet with him. MR VALLY Does anything look different about him? MR SITHOLE No, I can't see anything different. MR VALLY You haven't seen the scars on his throat? MR SITHOLE I happen to be ignorant on checking on people. MR VALLY A man has his throat slit with a massive scar on his throat, and you tell me he's a friend of yours, and you don't notice the difference? MR SITHOLE He appears to be not a full-time friend of mine, he is just an ordinary friend who lives in a location. MR VALLY Mr Sithole, what work are you doing now? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Are you aware that if you lie under oath you are committing a crime? MR SITHOLE That's positive, yes. MR VALLY Will you please stop fooling with us, we don't have time to fool around. Answer the questions honestly and directly, and we'll finish off. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY What happened to Sizwe Sithole? MR SITHOLE To my understanding, Sizwe Sithole died in prison. MR VALLY What was he arrested for? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Did you ever make enquiries when your cousin was arrested as to what he was arrested for? MR SITHOLE By that time, sir, the political situation was so tense for myself, and then I didn't have time to play around the police station. MR VALLY Well let's talk about that then. You were arrested for, amongst other things, the kidnapping and assault of Stompie Seipei, Kenny Gase, Pelo Mekgwe, and Thabiso Mono, can you confirm that? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY You were released on bail, who paid your bail? MR SITHOLE Mrs Mandela paid my bail. MR VALLY After you were released on bail, you absconded, is that true? MR SITHOLE That's correct. MR VALLY Who helped you leave the country? MR SITHOLE Comrades within the location ...(intervention) MR VALLY Can you tell us specifically who? MR SITHOLE I can't specify the person because I happen to be - to having no knowledge of who exactly helped me, but what I can say is that we manoeuvred as comrades to get out of the country. MR VALLY Do you know who helped you? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY MR SITHOLE I was not helped by either anybody but we manoeuvred as comrades to leave out of the country. MR VALLY You are not making sense, Mr Sithole. You say that you knew nothing about the charges, now you tell us you know what you were charged with. If you were entirely as innocent as you claim, why didn't you stand trial? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY No, you are not. MR SITHOLE Can I explain something to you. MR VALLY Sure. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY You were facing charges, very serious charges. This matter was in all the newspapers, this matter received a lot of publicity, you say you know nothing about the matter at all, yet you choose to flee the country at this time. Can you explain to me why? MR SITHOLE Because to me those charges meant nothing, because as far as I know there are many people who left the country having charges on their heads, or on them, as far back as 1976. MR VALLY Were you ever a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MR SITHOLE No, I was not. MR VALLY Did you ever play soccer with them? MR SITHOLE No, that's negative. MR VALLY Have you ever seen them playing soccer? MR SITHOLE Yes, that's positive. MR VALLY How many times? MR SITHOLE I recall twice. MR VALLY You were on the premises on the 19th of February 1989 when you were arrested, is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY Were you at school at this time? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY When did your school term finish? Was it the new school term, had it begun? MR SITHOLE What do you mean about that, can you tell me? MR VALLY Well, had your new school term begun on the 19th of February 1989 already? MR SITHOLE By that time? MR VALLY That's correct. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Did you stay in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house in January 1989? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Did you visit her in January 1989? MR SITHOLE Hello? MR VALLY Did you visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house in January 1989? MR SITHOLE I can't remember, I can't remember really whether a month before I was arrested I was there or what, I can't remember. MR VALLY Is it possible that you were there? MR SITHOLE Possibly, and possibly no, possibly yes and ...(intervention) MR VALLY Is it possible that you were there in December 1988? MR SITHOLE There is that possibility and there is no possibility. MR VALLY Do you know Pelo Mekgwe? MR SITHOLE Pelo Mekgwe, yes, I know him. MR VALLY Did you meet him at Mrs Mandela's house? MR SITHOLE Yes I once met with the guy, I don't remember, but I ...(intervention) MR VALLY Do you know Mr Kenny Gase? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Do you know him? MR SITHOLE No. MR VALLY Have you ever met Mr Stompie Seipei? MR SITHOLE No. MR VALLY So you met Mr Pelo Mekgwe at Mrs Mandela's house, you haven't met Mr Kenny Gase, you say, you haven't met Mr Stompie Seipei, you say. Have you ever heard of Mr Stompie Seipei? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY What have you heard about him? MR SITHOLE That he was an active teenager, and he died. MR VALLY How did he die? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Do you know where he was last seen? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY MR SITHOLE No. MR VALLY Do you know Mr Thabiso Mono? MR SITHOLE Thabiso, yes, I know Thabiso. MR VALLY Did you meet him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY You regularly visited Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, both in Orlando West and Diepkloof Extension, was your cousin, Mr Sizwe Sithole - first of all, I want you to explain your relationship with Sizwe Sithole. You say he's your cousin? MR SITHOLE Yes, he's my cousin. MR VALLY Are your fathers brothers or are your mothers sisters, in which way, is he your first cousin? MR SITHOLE My mother and the late Sizwe's mother were sisters. MR VALLY Are you aware if Sizwe Sithole was a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MR SITHOLE To my understanding I understand Sizwe as a comrade who was staying at Winnie Mandela's place. MR VALLY Was Sizwe Sithole ever a member of Mandela United Football Club? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Yet you went to visit him regularly there. MR SITHOLE I can't say whether the people whom I visited at Mandela's place were members of the Mandela United Football Club. MR VALLY Yet you went to watch the soccer club play football. MR SITHOLE Yes, but I didn't see him play. MR VALLY So you don't know? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR VALLY Was Pelo Mekgwe a member of the Football Club? MR SITHOLE No, I don't think so. MR VALLY Was Thabiso Mono a member of the Football Club? MR SITHOLE No, I don't think so, in fact let me say I don't know. MR VALLY When you saw Pelo Mekgwe and Thabiso Mono at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house did you notice any injuries on them? MR SITHOLE I think it's long time and then taking into consideration my age by that time ...(intervention) MR VALLY You were 17. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Is there anything wrong with your eyesight? MR SITHOLE No, there is no problem, but what I would like to tell you is that when I went to Mrs Mandela's place I was not there to check on people but I was there to check on my requirements. MR VALLY Well, you regularly went there weekends and other days to check on your requirements, were you ever aware of a disciplinary committee at Mrs Mandela's house? MR SITHOLE No. MR VALLY You lived in an area in Orlando West, are you aware of tension between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's Football Club and any youths in the areas where she lived? MR SITHOLE No, I didn't witness anything. MR VALLY You witnessed nothing? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY You are not aware of her house being burnt down? MR SITHOLE I was aware that the house was burnt down. MR VALLY Do you know why this happened? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY You lived in the same area, didn't you ask anyone? MR MILLER Sorry, Chairperson, Mr Sithole started off saying a few minutes ago saying that he doesn't know why he has been subpoenaed here today and, Chairperson, you indicated to him that his questioning by Mr Vally would give him an indication of why he is here. So far, Chairperson, all we have heard is a series of questions with a series of denials, which has taken the Commission, with respect, absolutely nowhere. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to tell him, because I thought, I mean, that the questions were actually questions that might assist, but are you able to say why you wanted him here? MR VALLY Did you receive our subpoena in this matter? MR SITHOLE Yes, I did. MR VALLY What did the subpoena tell you about? MR SITHOLE The subpoena tells me that I had to appear before the TRC concerning Winnie Mandela's hearing, public hearing. MR VALLY Did it specifically tell you about the abduction of Pelo Mekgwe, Kenny Gase, Thabiso Mono, and the death of Stompie Seipei? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Does Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know you? MR SITHOLE Yes, definitely. MR VALLY Well, when we questioned her, page 106, second in camera inquiry, we asked her the name "There were a number of co-accused in the trial, I will mention the names Jabu Sithole. MRS MANDELA I do not know Jabu Sithole". MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Did you ever appear in court with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SITHOLE I, I...[intervention] MR VALLY Surely, come you remember that. MR SITHOLE I, I, I, I, I, I don't think so, or maybe I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON Jabu, are you trying to play games? You mean you don't know ...(intervention) MR SITHOLE In fact, I don't remember well whether she did appeared with me in court because by that time I was in prison, and the time I was in prison my - in fact I was so small then the time I was in prison ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Order, please. MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Did you appear in court? MR SITHOLE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Did you see people there? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Hanif, is there a court record that..... MR VALLY MR SITHOLE By that time I believe I was in Zambia. MR VALLY When did you leave the country? MR SITHOLE I left the country in 1990. MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Mr Semenya. MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA Is your nickname Jarvas? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR SEMENYA Mrs Mandela says that's how you were called and that's how she has known you as Jarvas, would that be correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR SEMENYA Could you tell us why you refused to give a statement to the TRC? MR SITHOLE MR SEMENYA In my arithmetic around '87 you must have been about 15? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Hanif? MR VALLY Yes, please, Arch. I think there's a distortion here, '87 he was 15, we are talking about '89 when he was 17. I would like to ask just one or two questions. I think the witness is really being rather incredulous. You say you met with Thabisa Mono and Mr Pelo Mekgwe at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY Do you know at the time you met them at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house they alleged they were kidnapped? MR SITHOLE I was not sure. MR VALLY You are aware that they have given evidence to this Commission that they were severely assaulted the night of the 29th December? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY That they were carrying injuries at the time? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY MR SITHOLE I can't say anything because I only heard that from you. MR VALLY Have you ever worn the tracksuit of Mandela United Football Club? MR SITHOLE Can you repeat the question? MR VALLY Have you ever worn the tracksuit of the Mandela United Football Club? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY So you have worn it? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY MR SITHOLE I believe at one stage when - we were going MR VALLY Did Jerry Richardson give you the tracksuit? MR SITHOLE No. MR VALLY Who gave you the tracksuit? MR SITHOLE I took the tracksuit because there were many tracksuits lying down. MR VALLY So you are able to help yourself to tracksuits? MR SITHOLE Yes, everyone - I think everyone was able to help him- or herself with a tracksuit. Because I found the tracksuit lying down, then I had to wear it. MR VALLY So how often did you do this? How often did you wear this tracksuit? MR SITHOLE I can't remember the days. MR VALLY More than once? MR SITHOLE But it was more than once, yes. MR VALLY More than once you accompanied Mandela United Football Club on various journeys MR SITHOLE On Mandela Football journeys, yes. MR VALLY Can you give us some of the details of which journeys you went on? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Yes? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Yes? Did you ever go and fetch some people to bring them to the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR SITHOLE No, I don't remember that. MR VALLY So you only went to birthday parties and you went where else? To play soccer? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR VALLY And funerals? MR SITHOLE MR VALLY Is that the only one? Did you go to Dr Asvat's funeral? In Lenasia. MR SITHOLE I can't recall that, sir. MR VALLY Did you go in the bus driven by John Morgan one day in February? MR VALLY Did you go to a funeral at the end of January or early February? Do you know where Lenasia is? MR SITHOLE Yes, I know that. MR VALLY Do you know the coaster that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela owned? MR SITHOLE Yes, I know it. MR VALLY Do you know the driver, Mr John Morgan? MR SITHOLE Yes, Mutu used to drive the bus. MR VALLY Do you remember Mr John Morgan driving you and the rest of the team in their uniforms to a funeral in Lenasia, in Lenz? MR SITHOLE I can't remember the journey. MR VALLY Is it possible it happened? MR SITHOLE What I can say, I can say, yes, it is possible it happened, but I can't remember it. I can't recall it. MR VALLY Is it true that Ms Liela Groenewald, our investigator, put to you a number of allegations? MR SITHOLE No, I don't remember the allegations made but I only remember the thing that was told to me by Liela Groenewald concerning my brother. MR VALLY Did she put to you that it is stated in Katiza's Journey certain allegations regarding your brother, Sizwe Sithole? MR SITHOLE No, I don't remember that. MR VALLY Did she then make this allegation purely in the air? MR SITHOLE In fact, she came to me, we were not seated, but we were in motion when she told me the whole thing. MR VALLY You say you were in motion. What do you mean? MR SITHOLE In fact, we were moving. MR VALLY Moving where? In a car, in a bus, in a truck? MR SITHOLE No, we were in motion like we are pedestrians, I can say. MR VALLY MR SITHOLE My reaction is no. MR VALLY You just told me you saw them in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY And I put it to you that they said they were held there against their will. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY MR SITHOLE Yes, I can hear it from you. MR VALLY And that you were an active member of Mandela United Football Club. You went around on trips with them in the uniform. Is that true? MR SITHOLE I deny it because I can't even play football. MR VALLY No one asked you whether you can play football and no one asked whether Mandela United Football Club people play football. The point is you accompanied them on trips. MR SITHOLE That can happen but I was not a member. MR VALLY I put it to you that you are refusing to answer questions like you refused to give us a statement until today. MR SITHOLE MR VALLY I have no further questions. MS SOOKA Mr Sithole, are you aware of the fact that both Mr Thabiso Mono and Mr Gabriel Mekgwe have made statements which say that you in fact participated in the assault on them. What do you have to say about that? MR SITHOLE My response is no, I was not even in that yard during that day. MS SOOKA Why would they have a reason to lie about you and your involvement? MR SITHOLE MS SOOKA Yes, but they are actually saying that you beat them, both of them. So why would Stompie, the fact that you were arrested for Stompie's matter affect the fact that they would lie about you? MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Sithole, can you remember, when did you return to South Africa? MR SITHOLE It was on the 18th February 1994. DR BORAINE Thank you. And I know that you answered this question, but I couldn't quite hear your answer, so forgive me if I ask you a question again. And that is, when you came back, what work did you do and what work are you doing now today? MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE Thank you very much. In your handwritten statement - this one - which you gave, I think, only today, you say that you were arrested and charged with the kidnapping of Stompie. Is that right? MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE "It is true that I was arrested and charged with kidnapping of Stompie". MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE So your statement is not entirely accurate. But let me ask you, kidnapping, you know what kidnapping means, do you? MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE Would you agree with me when I say that kidnapping is a very serious offence? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. DR BORAINE Now have you ever considered applying for amnesty? MR SITHOLE I didn't, sir. DR BORAINE You never thought about it. MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. MR NTSEBEZA Mr Sithole, I just want to clear up a few things for my own understanding. Now this statement, I don't know whether, is there a copy that can be available to the witness? This statement which you are using, this statement. Do you know that statement? It is the statement that you were being led on by your lawyer. Do you know that statement? MR SITHOLE Yes, I do. MR NTSEBEZA Who was it written by? MR SITHOLE It was written by my lawyer. MR NTSEBEZA In other words, this is your lawyer's handwriting. MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA Did he read it back to you after you had...[intervention] MR SITHOLE MR NTSEBEZA Now, let me ask the question again. Did the lawyer read the statement back to you? MR SITHOLE No. MR NTSEBEZA He did not. I see. Now it says you paid R500 and thereafter left the country for political reasons. Is that right? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA In other words, you skipped bail. MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA And since your return have you been approached by the police with a warrant of arrest for having skipped bail? MR SITHOLE No, sir. MR NTSEBEZA Do you know if the police are aware that you have returned? Do you know if they are aware that you have returned? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA And you have not been charged again on the charges for which you had applied for bail. MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA I see. Thank you, Mr Chairman. DR BORAINE MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE MR SITHOLE DR BORAINE Thank you very much. MR NTSEBEZA Thank you, Chairperson, just a question I wanted to ask. When a warning statement was shown to you by Mr Vally, you quickly indicated that it does not bear your signature. Do you recall that? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA And I notice that this statement also does not bear a signature. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA Did you elect not to sign this particular statement? Today's statement. When you made it to that lawyer. MR SITHOLE I made it to the lawyer thinking that he will come back to me. Unfortunately I was called, because everything was just an express. MR NTSEBEZA I see. Did you ask to sign it? MR SITHOLE I didn't ask to sign it, but I thought Mr Miller will come back to me to make use of the statement and make me read the statement, and at the same time sign it. MR NTSEBEZA Now do I understand you to be saying, had he asked you to sign it you would have no problem signing it? MR SITHOLE Can you repeat it, sir? MR NTSEBEZA Are you suggesting that had Mr Miller asked you to sign your statement to the extent that it reflects what you wanted it to say, you would have had no problem signing it? MR SITHOLE No, I was going to have a sort of a problem. MR NTSEBEZA I see. What would have been your problem? MR SITHOLE Because I believe that whatever I want to state maybe in an official structure or in official forum like this one, I had to do it on my own so that I can express whatever it is in my heart. MR NTSEBEZA I see. Do I then understand you to be saying you would not have signed this statement because you had not been writing it out yourself? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA You would have adopted the same attitude towards the writing of this statement that you adopted to TRC investigators to whom you refused to give a written statement. MR SITHOLE If there was an insistence, yes, I was going to make sure that I personally write the statement and go through it again thoroughly and carefully before signing it. MR NTSEBEZA MR SITHOLE Which was the warning statement? MR NTSEBEZA The statement that Mr Vally showed you which you made to the police in connection with the murder of Stompie. MR SITHOLE That statement I think it was not even read to me by those police of that time. MR NTSEBEZA Like this one, in the same way as you claim this one was not read to you by Mr Miller, a lawyer? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR NTSEBEZA I see. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON I do want to say in defence of Mr Miller that we did ask him at very short notice to try and represent Mr Sithole, and therefore I would want for that to be noted as explaining, because we did say we would want to have this thing expedited, and therefore in defence of him, insofar as I can give you a defence, I would like us to note, I mean, that there is something in mitigation. MR NTSEBEZA Mr Chairperson, I was not impugning (indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I just want those who might be wanting to report to know that he came to fill a breach very, very quickly and I did express our appreciation for that. MS SOOKA Mr Sithole, I just want to follow up on the nickname if you - right in the beginning of your evidence you mentioned that you visited a relative at Mrs Mandela's home, and that you also had a friend there. But is not true that you have a nephew? MR SITHOLE I visited a relative. I don't understand when you are saying I visited a relative. I visited a friend whom I was studying with. MS SOOKA Was Sizwe Sithole not your cousin? MR SITHOLE He was my cousin, but I normally didn't visit him. MS SOOKA No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Miller? MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You will note what I said to you. I beg your pardon. Mr Unterhalter? MR UNTERHALTER Mr Sithole, my name is David Unterhalter and I act for certain of the families here. Mr Sithole, if you are to be believed, you were not a member of the football club, is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR UNTERHALTER And you only infrequently visited Mrs Mandela's house in the course of 1989, is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR UNTERHALTER Now were you in Mrs Mandela's house on the 13th November 1988? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER Did you witness in that house on that day the assault that took place on Lolo Sono? MR SITHOLE No, sir. MR UNTERHALTER Had you been in the house would you have seen had there been an assault that took place in the house? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now Mr Sithole you say in your statement, and your lawyer has said now that this is precisely what you said to him today, you say the MUFC, that is the Mandela Football Club, was not used for violent purposes. Do you see that? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR UNTERHALTER You state that in the affirmative, as if you have certain knowledge of that fact. MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER You don't say I don't know whether or not they do. You say they were not used for violent purposes. MR SITHOLE What I said to my lawyer is what I know. I can't say what I don't know to my lawyer. MR UNTERHALTER But, Mr Sithole, you actually can't know, because there has been evidence of matters, for example concerning the assaults upon Lolo Sono, which occurred on the 13th November 1988, and if you weren't in the house, you couldn't possibly know who carried out those assaults and what the consequences were. MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER Yes. And therefore if persons had been abducted and were kept against their will in the house, you might also simply not know, according to your evidence. evidence. MR UNTERHALTER MR SITHOLE Yes, I just don't know. MR UNTERHALTER CHAIRPERSON Order, please. MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER MR SITHOLE Sir, I think you heard that Mr Miller didn't show me the statement before it came here. I think you do understand why some of the things are being writing like this. MR UNTERHALTER Mr Sithole, do you know of a man by the name of Michael Siagamela? MR SITHOLE No, I didn't know of him. MR UNTERHALTER Do you know whether he worked for Mrs Mandela? MR SITHOLE I don't have any idea, sir. MR UNTERHALTER Did Mrs Mandela know the names of the members of the football club? MR SITHOLE I can't say, sir. MR UNTERHALTER You can't say it? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR UNTERHALTER She knew your name, though, and you weren't even a member. MR SITHOLE Yes, I know that she knew my name. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Did you ever see her giving instructions to members of the football club? MR SITHOLE Pertaining what? MR UNTERHALTER In any way at all, at any time. MR SITHOLE What I can say, the instruction that I witnessed maybe is of sending one to the shop to buy bread and come back. MR UNTERHALTER I see, and were those instructions carried out? MR SITHOLE Yes, definitely, because she is an adult. CHAIRPERSON Order, please. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. You say that you returned from overseas in, I believe you said 1994, is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR UNTERHALTER Have you seen Mrs Mandela since then? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER Did you speak to her when you saw her? MR SITHOLE Yes, we greeted one another. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Did you get any assistance from her? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER I see. Did she say anything to you concerning making a statement before the TRC? MR SITHOLE No. MR UNTERHALTER Or the Commission. MR SITHOLE No. MR UNTERHALTER Nothing at all? MR SITHOLE No. MR UNTERHALTER MR SITHOLE I believe as Mrs Mandela, she is a grown-up woman, if maybe she is sending me to the shop, I had to acknowledge to that, as I can do it to each and everyone who is elder than me. MR UNTERHALTER You didn't leave the country for political reasons, you left to avoid standing trial, isn't that so? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER What political reason did you leave the country for? MR SITHOLE I was active. Being a comrade we are harassed by the police by then. Then the alternative definitely was to leave the country in order not to be murdered or to be harassed. MR UNTERHALTER You were standing trial and you were out on bail at the time. MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER Who was harassing you at that point? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER So you were a loyal member of the movement? MR SITHOLE MR UNTERHALTER Yes. And on whose instructions did you leave the country? MR SITHOLE Nobody instruction I did leave the country, but I manoeuvred and I decided with some of my comrades to leave the country. MR UNTERHALTER Who were those comrades? MR SITHOLE They are comrades whom I left the country with. It was the same Brian Mabusa. MR UNTERHALTER And who assisted you to leave? If you were leaving for political reasons and for the purposes of the movement? MR SITHOLE Nobody assisted me to leave the country. MR UNTERHALTER Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Joseph? MR JOSEPH My surname is Joseph. I represent Katiza Cebekhulu. I just want to understand your language and I want to understand your thinking. In 1988 if an MK soldier or a comrade who was operating from a safe house in Soweto killed somebody in the execution of his duties as a soldier, and the police were after that person and that person left the country, what reason would you give for the person leaving the country? In other words, would that be a political reason for leaving the country? MR SITHOLE In 1988? MR JOSEPH Yes. MR SITHOLE I don't know whether must I answer that question because by that time I was not an MK soldier. Can you talk on behalf of a politician, an ordinary activist of the African National Congress? Maybe I can understand it better. MR JOSEPH Okay. Change the description of the person who killed in the execution of his duty furthering the aims of the African National Congress in his effort to overthrow the apartheid regime. If that person killed somebody and the police were after that person, would you disagree with me if I were to say that that person left the country for political reasons? The murder is a political murder and he leaves the country for a political reason. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR JOSEPH You would agree with me? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR JOSEPH Identify with any type of precision any type of political activity you were engaged in which would have interested the police in arresting you, other than the kidnapping of these people or the murder of Stompie, and please do me this favour, if you do not understand my question ask me now, otherwise answer the question precisely. What activity were you engaged in of a political nature other than the charges with which you were charged and in respect of which you skipped bail, which you describe as activities which gave rise to a political reason for you to leave the country. MR SITHOLE MR JOSEPH I asked you to give the answer with a degree of precision. What activity were you engaged in? Did you murder anybody? MR SITHOLE I didn't murder anybody. MR JOSEPH Did you assault anybody? MR SITHOLE I didn't assault anybody. MR JOSEPH Did you commit any crime? MR SITHOLE I didn't commit any crime. MR JOSEPH Then what interest would the police have in you? MR SITHOLE The interest that they were having, it was because of my influence that I was having to the youth to fight back the Inkatha people. MR JOSEPH You were encouraging young men to attack Inkatha? MR SITHOLE I was encouraging young men to fight back their just war. MR JOSEPH To engage in physical violence with Inkatha. You were engaged in that? MR SITHOLE I once or twice engaged myself, yes, in a physical war with Inkatha. MR JOSEPH And when did that take place? MR SITHOLE It was round 1990. It was round 1990 I can say. MR JOSEPH In 1990 you were engaged in that? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR JOSEPH And when did you leave the country? MR SITHOLE I left the country 1990 - it was in November. MR JOSEPH And when were you engaged in this activity? MR SITHOLE I was engaged in those activities, I think, around January downwards. MR JOSEPH So look how lucky the police were. You were engaged in criminal activities that they weren't aware of. Is that right? MR SITHOLE No, it is wrong. MR JOSEPH Is it wrong? MR SITHOLE Yes, sir. MR JOSEPH And where did these activities take place? What place? MR SITHOLE In Soweto, sir. MR JOSEPH The address. MR SITHOLE I can't say the address because the activities were happening around Soweto. Outside the houses. MR JOSEPH And who did you assault? Or who was assaulted? A name. MR SITHOLE Nobody I did assault. MR JOSEPH The people you were encouraging, who did they assault? MR SITHOLE They fought back with Inkatha people. I don't know their names or their surnames. MR JOSEPH You don't know where the activity took place, is that correct? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Mr Joseph, excuse me. Thank you very much. You had said you don't have - I want to remind you that I have given you warning that you may be recalled. Thank you very much. Step down. We now call Dr Frank Chikane. MR VALLY Sorry, Arch, could be just have a short break. We have just got this statement and we just want to quickly read it - from the Crisis Committee. We didn't have it before. We need a 10/15 minute break. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Let's take a break until half past four. HEARING ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON BEYERS NAUDE (sworn in) SIDNEY MUFAMADI (sworn in) FRANK CHIKANE (sworn in) AUBREY MOKOENA (sworn in) CHAIRPERSON Dr Boraine will lead you until Hanif comes. DR BORAINE DR CHIKANE Chairperson, we have agreed that because this is collective I will introduce the submission, present aspects of it, and because different aspects were dealt with by various people in the committee, some of them will have the opportunity to elaborate on some of the issues. DR BORAINE Thank you, Dr Chikane. Would you then start and then when you have completed your section, perhaps you would indicate to me who will follow. Thank you. Please continue. DR CHIKANE Chairperson, I would like to say once we had dealt with this matter of the house, which meant talking to leaders that night, and I remember up to two o'clock in the night we were knocking at peoples' houses to make sure that no violence happens in the community. And the next thing that we did was then to look at how we restore the house to the state in which it was before because the community was angry about it, and we got involved in a process of doing that and the community assisted us in that regard. I just want to say that this Committee was purely meant for that purpose, and what made us to stay longer is because the reconstruction of the house and repairs took longer, and we had to also take care of the accounts and the security arrangements which needed to be done at that particular time. And, Chairperson, we do submit that questions were directed to the young people who were alleged to have been kidnapped, and the answers they gave us were, no, they were not kidnapped. We asked them whether in fact they were beaten or not, assaulted or not assaulted. They said, no, they were not assaulted. And you will see from our submission in paragraph 26 that, when members of the committee pressed the young people about apparent injuries which were seen from them, they denied they were actually ever assaulted and they said that they incurred those injuries, I mean they suffered those injuries by falling from trees, and that was the answer they gave at that particular moment. We asked about the whereabouts of Seipei Stompie, and whether or not Stompie was assaulted. They replied that they did not know of his whereabouts. They all told the committee that at no stage were they assaulted while they were at the Mandela residence. DR BORAINE Thank you Dr Chikane. Just before Mr Mufamadi speaks, could I just inform Mr Vally that the introduction has now been made, the other members of the now-defunct Crisis Committee will speak to particular issues, after which I will have great pleasure in handing over to you to do the questioning. MR MUFAMADI "The committee insisted on removing what it considered a bush, that is the Mandela Football Club, around the Mandela family within which agents of the apartheid system were possibly operating". If you look again at Annexure C which is then our report to Mr Oliver Tambo, page 2 of that document. Or let me start with the last sentence of page 1. This is how we reported to Mr Tambo: "When we interviewed Katiza Cebekhulu, he came across as a person who understood no language other than Zulu. (There must be a full stop there.) Somewhere along the way we gained an impression that he is a maverick. This prompted us to concentrate on additional issues. We broke him. (Not in the physical sense.) Consequently we established the following from him That he, Katiza, was instructed to contribute in assaulting the four, the four namely Katiza, Gabriel, Stompie and Kenny. He was himself not assaulted. He believed that Kenny had escaped, but he suspected that Stompie was dead. He, Katiza, before running away from Hammarsdale "It is a matter of public record that sometimes this year the African National Congress and the Inkatha Freedom Party made public statements, that is the provisional structures of these two organisations in KwaZulu-Natal, they made public statements which one can say confirm what appears there as Point 4. Or at least they have got the same impression that Katiza had of himself as he told us." There I was dealing with annexure C. Coming to annexure E - or before I come to Annexure - if you look at Annexure C - "Winnie later told us that she has sent both Katiza and Xoliswa to Lusaka. (Katiza Cebekhuku and Xoliswa Falati to Lusaka.) This is what prompted us to take this step of communicating with you hopefully whilst the two are still in Lusaka, because we thought that it was necessary for him to be armed with this insight that we had gained ourselves. We had not gone public for instance about what Katiza told us about himself, but we thought that it would be necessary for the leadership of the ANC to ask him a few questions about that. When we spoke to Katiza, he implicated Xoliswa Falati in the alleged kidnapping of the children from the Methodist church. And indeed later, when the children had come out of the Mandela residence, they implicated Xoliswa as well at the meeting which was referred to earlier by Bishop Storey, which took place in Dobsonville. So indeed we thought that, quite apart from whatever it was that they were sent to say in Lusaka, it would have been necessary for the leadership of the ANC to know about these other allegations that were being made about the individuals concerned. Coming to Annexure E that, as I said earlier, was a statement issued by the leadership of the ANC from Lusaka. DR BORAINE MR MUFAMADI DR CHIKANE [Intervention] But the statement was made public during that time. MR MUFAMADI "Recently there have been serious developments pertaining to the activities of the group known as the Mandela Football Club, which have raised great concern within the mass democratic movement and struggling people as a whole. The ANC shares the concern of the people, and has all the time tried to intervene to find an amicable solution to the problem. In the light of reports about its activities in the recent past, our organisation, complementing the initiatives of leading personalities of the mass democratic movement, tried to use its influence to bring about the disbanding of the group." The group being the Mandela United Football Club. (tape ends) Now, as I said earlier, we sent a report to Mr Tambo, we received a response through the same channels that we used in sending the report. Subsequently, this statement was issued by the leadership of the ANC. The statement by the leadership of the ANC, as we saw, it was appealing to members of the Mass Democratic Movement not to give up the attempt to solve the problems amicably. We understood also that they were addressing an appeal to us as this collective not to give up that task. Because if you look at our report to Mr Oliver Tambo, we were actually posing the question whether any useful purpose would be served by the continued existence of this collective and the work that we were trying to continue to do. We also interpreted this statement as addressing an appeal also to Mrs Mandela that she should co-operate with efforts that we were making, co-operate with efforts which the leadership of the ANC was imploring the rest of the Mass Democratic Movement to make. Mr Chairman, I should not take your interrogation time. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: We are not coming to interrogate. Do we have any further inputs? CRISIS COMMITTEE The task of these members was to ask Dr Asvat as to whether or not he had treated the youth and whether or not he could share with the Committee what his findings were because that was important for us and that story is related in Annexure B in a much more detailed form in terms of what was required and extracted and the members of the Committee who went there report that Dr Asvat denied every having seen or medically examined the youth and that is stated in Annexure B. Annexure B was written around this particular question because it was felt that because the members of the Committee were the ones who visited Dr Asvat before his death and talked to him about these young people, that the Committee would have information, Dr Asvat would have communicated to them and you will realise that in Annexure B where reference is made to the report which was sent to the President of the ANC at that particular time. There was other interaction which happens beyond that I know of. Of course when I came back from outside the country, he was already dead, so I had no opportunity to can do that. The next thing Chairperson, is Paragraph 34. Just to put the context of all these reports which Mr Mufamadi has been referring to, that there was a meeting at Dobsonville, which was called and members, and I am sorry that Bishop Storey there has made a real story, rather than with an ease of, there is a typographical error there and we apologise for that. I would like to turn your attention again to Paragraph 14, Chairperson, which has been referred to and would like to refer to some of the issues we believed after the burning of the house, are well involved here. CHAIRPERSON: Hanif? MR VALLY: Thank you Arch. I first want to put a statement made by Mrs Madikizela Mandela to us at her second Section 29 Inquiry, page 103. The Mandela Crisis Committee - "Did they visit your house in connection with the abduction or removal of the boys, or shall we say the abduction of the boys from Methodist Manse?" Mrs Madikizela Mandela responded - "I indicated that some Church leaders came to the house, a Crisis Committee has never had communication with us. I heard the idea of the so-called Crisis Committee from the Media and from these documents that were flying about, but some members of . . . (indistinct) from the Churches came to see me. I asked them - "Did the senior police ever ask and were given access to any of the boys who were taken from the Manse?" Mrs Madikizela Mandela "No. I had no such discussion with them. The people who did come to my house came to express their deepest sympathy about what was going on in the Media and what was all over in the papers. At that stage the boys were already taken away to the Church." I went on - "Did no Church leaders or any other persons come and see you about the boys whilst they were on your premises"? Mrs Madikizela Mandela - "No. Not to my recollection, I have just stated that if I remember well, a person like Rev. Frank Chikane would have come home during these days but not to secure the release of the boys." And I asked again - "Did he raise the issue of the boys?" Se went on. "They came home during those days and the actual discussions which took place were generally about what was happening at the time." She went on - "Not to have the boys released because they had already left to my recollection." CRISIS COMMITTEE Do we have a privilege to gain access to the records of those proceedings? MR VALLY You do. MR CHIKANE "a person like Rev. Frank Chikane could have come over in those days but not to secure the release of the boys." Now obviously during those days I played quite and I had too many hats to put on and one was as a friend to the family, one was as a Pastor and one was on as Community Leader, so there was quite a complex combination of issues, and there are issues that I dealt with at a Pastoral level which I think belongs here and issues that are related to these particular boys which we had to deal with and so I would rest my case that the submissions . . . (indistinct). CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I want to understand, I mean I hear you Frank about privilege, what you are saying in response is you as a Committee and maybe you individually did go and see Mrs Madikizela Mandela about the release of these youths. MR CHIKANE: Now it is very possible that there were too many . . . actions to remember everything that happened in those days, we have go to go through files and documents and etc. even this morning we are still working out what could have happened here and there but the situation is as it stands and Annexure C also deals with that matter. On Page 1, Annexure C, and then there is also Annexure D . . . (indistinct) CHAIRPERSON: MR VALLY At all times when you went to go and see Mrs Madikizela-Mandela who was making decisions in that household regarding the issues raised about these youngsters, about the persons who were taken away, who was making the decision? MR CHIKANE MR VALLY: We will come back to this in a short while. CRISIS COMMITTEE I just wanted to find out whether we should understand from Frank Chikane, that it is not possible to say when we went there and they held a discussion, he could not formally, in their own minds, who was in authority there with whom they could have a discussion about the issues that they were coming to discuss there, do I understand that was the position? MR CHIKANE MR NTSEBEZA: You have given me a reply, Mr Chikane, I think that is what the question I wanted. MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Ntsebeza. MR CHIKANE MR VALLY: Before I go into specifics, I just want to ask you a general question. What was the attitude of Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela to you people when you raised various queries with her, just her general attitude her demeanour towards you? MR CHIKANE Well, I suppose it depended on what issue we were raising at any given time, if you look at Annexure C, of our submission, we talk there about having approached her and we put to her the allegations which were made about the children, namely that they were removed from the Methodist Church against their will and that they were assaulted. She promised at the time to give us access to the children which she later did and we saw the children, but you will see that in the same Annexure we talk about a meeting which was held in Dobsonville by various organs that were affiliated to the UDF then. Page 3 of that Annexure tells you about the resolutions which were adopted at that meeting - 1 to 5. I want . . . (indistinct) read them and when those resolutions were conveyed to her and I will read this part. "When Winnie was informed about the decisions of the meeting, her immediate response was to demand a list of all the people who were at the meeting, she seems to think that she is above the community, that was our opinion. She shows utter contempt for both the Crisis Committee and the Community. She had started accusing the Crisis Committee of all sorts of petty things like (1) that the Crisis Committee is conniving with the Community. The reason for that accusation when the Community organisations invited us to attend the meeting, we obliged. (2) The Crisis Committee communicates with Madiba and/or behind her back. (3) The Crisis Committee is assisting the police by investigating this abduction allegation. (4) The SACC and the Christian Institute which we thought was an apparent reference to Frank, Rev Frank Chikane and Dr Naude are wolves in sheep skins." Now I am saying it depended on what issue we were raising at any given time as to what would be her attitude towards the Crisis Committee. I hope that answers your question. MR VALLY: Thanks, it does. This document was put to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, Page 66, second Section 29 Inquiry, the one you have just read, Annexure C. I ask the question "You are aware of the report sent by what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee to the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo where they referred to the retractions?" the retractions I was referring to was the retractions by Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe where they retracted their allegations of sexual abuse at a public meeting to where they went on 6th January. So I ask this question - "You are aware of reports sent by what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee to the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, where they refer to these retractions?" Mrs Madikizela Mandela responded: "With deep regret that document is not owned even by the present ex-members of the Crisis Committee, I spoke to the present Minister of Safety and Security, Sidney Mufamadi, I spoke to Aubrey Mokoena who is the Deputy Speaker of the House to try and establish the authenticity of the so-called document from the Crisis Committee. Both of them had no knowledge of what-so-ever of your fictitious document which is so obviously . . . (indistinct) which is what they used to do and admit it publicly. You have questioned me on a document which was not even drawn by the Crisis Committee even during those apartheid times, you are free to access that information directly from them, they know nothing about that document and Sidney Mufamadi even went so far as to say to me "Did I not recollect that by the time they were supposed to have issued that so-called document the Crisis Committee had already ceased to exist. It had been dissolved". What is your response to that? Sorry, my colleague has just given you the full transcripts, there is a first Section 29 and a second Section 29, has it been divided for you? The blue page is the division. I was referring to Page 66 of the second section 29 document. MR MOKOENA MR VALLY: You do confirm that a document was drafted by the Mandela Crisis Committee and is not a Stratcom document? MR CHIKANE Well, we do confirm that the document was written by us, if I understood you well when you read the extract from the previous hearing, Mrs Mandela says it was obviously from Stratcom. It would be interesting to hear what is obviously Stratcom about this document but we are saying it was written by us. MR VALLY: Let us talk about what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela tells us about the origin of the Mandela Crisis Committee, I refer you to the first Section 29 Inquiry. You see that file we have given you, the blue page in-between divides the two Inquiries. I am now dealing with the first one. I want to refer you to Page 89. Have you found the page? Maybe I must just go back as far as 88 to the lead up to that. I asked the question - "Were you aware of any tension between Mandela United Football Club and other schools in the area or other football...." CHAIRPERSON: I hope that we are going to finish tonight with this particular group but I mean it is . . . CRISIS COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON: CRISIS COMMITTEE Chairperson, that is true. CHAIRPERSON: MINISTER MUFAMADI We suggest that we proceed and if we feel that we are really encountering difficulties we will indicate. CHAIRPERSON: MR VALLY: Alright, we are on page 88 of the first Section 29 Enquiry. If you look at a third of the way down the page, I start off with a question - "Were you aware of any tension between Mandela United Football Club and other schools in the area or other Football Clubs?" - 88, first Inquiry. CHAIRPERSON: Order please. MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela Mandela answers "I know nothing about that Mr Chairman, I heard these things in the media" - 88, First Transcript, Could we take a very short break Archbishop and I want to just arrange a couple of copies so that everyone has a copy. CHAIRPERSON: CRISIS COMMITTEE: CRISIS COMMITTEE: CRISIS COMMITTEE: In my copy it is the one after the blue division. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn until half past eight tomorrow. MR RICHARD Mr Chairperson, may I just say we are missing page.... CRISIS COMMITTEE HEARING ADJOURNS