special Mandela United Football Club Hearings Johannesburg 5 PATRICIA JANE KLAPP, MAGALI EUVODIA NKADIMENG, LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG, MR S CHILI, MS D CHILI, MRS B CHILI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56340&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/mandela/mufc7b.htm MR NTOMBENI Yes, that is true. MR SEMENYA Did Mrs Mandela order the killing of Tholi? MR NTOMBENI I don't know. MR SEMENYA Who according to you had ordered the killing of Tholi? MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA The person who ordered it is either her or Zinzi? MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA Why do you say that? MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA Just educate us a little bit, why do you say that? - based on your knowledge. MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA MR NTOMBENI I just want to explain this to you - when Sizwe got to my place he was drunk, he had drunk brandy, he was from Diepkloof. He went past Orlando before he came to me and Winnie said she was not present at that time, she was in Cape Town but the following day she was there, she had arrived from Cape Town and she was with Zinzi. Zinzi was there driving in a microbus together with Guybon and Shoes, looking for Sizwe. MR SEMENYA Which questions are you answering? MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA In your statement you say that when there was an attack you refused to go. MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA So it was possible to refuse some of these instructions? MR NTOMBENI Yes, because I had realised what was happening, all along I was just being dragged into the whole thing. MR SEMENYA MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA Now, why did you defy her this time? MR NTOMBENI I had decided enough was enough and come what may. MR SEMENYA MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA Is that your answer to my statement? MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA Is that your final answer to my question? MR NTOMBENI Yes. MR SEMENYA I have no further questions. DR BORAINE MR RICHARD Sorry Chairperson. Sir, at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela you described the holding of certain disciplinary proceedings which could be described as the conduct of Disciplinary Committees, now how did these work? Was there a Chairman or a secretary? MR NTOMBENI Some of the orders came from the late Sizwe Sithole, he used to tell us that this one deserves to be disciplined and assaulted. MR RICHARD And who played secretary to the Committee? MR NTOMBENI MR RICHARD MR NTOMBENI Could you repeat your questions? MR RICHARD After the supposed disbanding of the football team sometime in April and May 1987, what went on? MR NTOMBENI That is what the people thought but within the yard a club still existed, nothing was burnt down, everything existed and was very much intact. MR RICHARD And things continued as normal, is that correct? MR NTOMBENI Definitely. MR RICHARD No further questions. Just one question, sorry ...[intervention] DR BORAINE MS NICOLE DR BORAINE Thank you, please proceed. MS NICOLE Thank you, I just have two questions. Can you please tell us again, what was the purpose of creating the soccer club? MR NTOMBENI Bone Vega said: "Guys, we should form a club so that we are able keep ourselves busy and not loiter around the streets". MS NICOLE So it was to play soccer and organise matches? MR NTOMBENI That is correct. MS NICOLE So when did your purpose change from being a soccer club to becoming a torture club? DR BORAINE MR VALLY DR BORAINE Would you like to comment? MS NICOLE You are correct, it is of no absolute relevance to our client but I am interested to know and I assume I have got the right to know. DR BORAINE MS NICOLE DR BORAINE Thank you, does that conclude your questions? MS NICOLE Yes. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter? MR UNTERHALTER MR NTOMBENI As we were fighting Imzimshlope - we were fighting the hostel guys and Tobogo was taking orders from me as I was his commander at that time in Imzimshlope within our structure. MR UNTERHALTER MR NTOMBENI MR UNTERHALTER That is what Lerothodi Ikaneng will say the name of the relative of Mr Sithole was, does that fit with what you know? MR NTOMBENI Yes, I do. MR UNTERHALTER "That the members were then allowed to keep their track suits, it was however a mistake from the management to allow these members to keep their track suits as these people created the impression that the club did still exist although most of these people were still closely involved with the Mandela household, even during the funeral of Doctor Asvat in 1989 they were wearing the track suits" As far as you remember in 1987, were there still people associated with the Mandela household who called themselves Mandela Football Club people? MR NTOMBENI Yes. DR BORAINE Thank you. Mr Vally? MR VALLY Thank you Mr Chair, just a few questions please. MR NTOMBENI MR VALLY You say 47, what do you mean? MR NTOMBENI AK47. MR VALLY MR NTOMBENI Yes, I know of a few. MR VALLY Can you give us very brief details on these MK units, who was in charge of them, who made them up, who were the members of these units? MR NTOMBENI MR VALLY "V", did he have any other name? MR NTOMBENI Vuisile. MR VALLY Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know Vuisile? MR NTOMBENI Yes. MR VALLY Why do you say this? MR NTOMBENI MR VALLY MR NTOMBENI MR VALLY Finally, the issue of the football club - the disbanding or the alleged disbanding thereof, although it was called The Mandela United Football Club, what were the principle activities that this group of young men were involved in? MR NTOMBENI The aim of the formation of the Club was for us to be able to play soccer. MR VALLY How did it develop, what did it become later? MR NTOMBENI MR VALLY Did the young men who initially made up the club, did they act as bodyguards for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR NTOMBENI No, they were not bodyguards. MR VALLY Finally, in terms of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Jerry Richardson, did Mr Jerry Richardson always take instructions from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR NTOMBENI MR VALLY Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness but one issue I want to just say two minor things if I may because Mr Semenya raised the issue of the subpoena. DR BORAINE MR VALLY DR BORAINE Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA DR BORAINE Thank you very much. MR SEMENYA May I though deal with one aspect with the witness? DR BORAINE Please go ahead. MR SEMENYA You are Zulu speaking Sir, are you not? MR NTOMBENI Yes. MR SEMENYA Were you confusing Sanele with Silent? MR NTOMBENI MR SEMENYA I really give up. DR BORAINE ...[inaudible] silent answer. Doctor Randera? DR RANDERA MR NTOMBENI DR RANDERA When? MR NTOMBENI DR RANDERA MR NTOMBENI DR RANDERA MR NTOMBENI Yes. DR RANDERA MR NTOMBENI DR RANDERA Thank you. DR BORAINE Ms Mkhize? MS MKHIZE Thank you Chairperson. I just want to ask you general question, when looking back now do you think your formation would have engaged in any of the activities like the assaults, the killings was it not for the influence of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi? MR NTOMBENI MS MKHIZE MR NTOMBENI MS MKHIZE MR NTOMBENI MS MKHIZE MR NTOMBENI DR BORAINE Sooka? MS SOOKA Do you know Jabu Sithole? MR NTOMBENI Yes, I do. MS SOOKA MR NTOMBENI Yes. MS SOOKA Did you know him by a different name? Javis? MR NTOMBENI Yes, I used to call him Javis. MS SOOKA Was he known to Mrs Mandela? MR NTOMBENI Yes. MS SOOKA Was he a member of the football club? MR NTOMBENI Yes, he was a member but he was not playing football or soccer. MS SOOKA What was he doing with the club then? MR NTOMBENI No, he would just come and go with us wherever we went and he used to go and watch us playing football. MS SOOKA Do you know Mr Madonsela? MR NTOMBENI MS SOOKA You used the name Magojo, was that person known to you as Wilson Sebuwani? MR NTOMBENI Wilson Sebilwane. MS SOOKA Magojo? MR NTOMBENI Yes. MS SOOKA MR NTOMBENI Yes, he is here. MS SOOKA Thank you very much. DR BORAINE Doctor Mgojo? DR MGOJO MR NTOMBENI DR MGOJO MR NTOMBENI DR MGOJO MR NTOMBENI I did not trust the police, I did not particularly like them. DR MGOJO MR NTOMBENI No, not that we were scared but we were specifically instructed to remain in the yard until such time that our wounds had healed, the people who assaulted us gave us that instruction. DR MGOJO Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know about that instruction or did she issue the instruction? MR NTOMBENI DR MGOJO MR NTOMBENI Yes, it is. DR BORAINE Right, Mr Ntombeni, thank you very much for appearing before the Commission, you may stand down now, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED DR BORAINE This session is adjourned ...[intervention] MR VALLY ...[inaudible] DR BORAINE MR VALLY DR BORAINE have to honour. MR VALLY DR BORAINE MS SOOKA Could you state your full names for the record please? MS KLAPP Patricia Jane Klapp. MS SOOKA Do you have any objection to taking the oath. PATRICIA JANE KLAPP (sworn states) MS SOOKA Thank you, you may be seated. DR BORAINE Mr Vally, are you leading the witness? MR VALLY I am. DR BORAINE Please proceed. MR VALLY Doctor Klapp, thank you very much for coming at such short notice. Firstly, briefly tell us what your profession is. MS KLAPP MR VALLY MS KLAPP Yes. MR VALLY Can you briefly tell us in lay persons language what wounds you found on the corpse of Mr Stompie Sepei? MS KLAPP Yes, I have the report in front of me but in summary I gave the cause of death as: Penetrating Incised Wounds of his Neck - Subcutaneous Contusion. MR VALLY Now the first part, when you say Penetrating wounds etc., is that stab wounds? MS KLAPP MR VALLY MS KLAPP There was a third wound over the left side of the neck - did you want me to demonstrate it? MR VALLY Yes please. MS KLAPP The two on the right side of the neck - if you could possibly turn the head, were behind the right ear and the one over the left side of the neck was in this region here and that was a larger wound that measured 4cm. MR VALLY MS KLAPP MR VALLY I see. MS KLAPP Bur for all intents and purposes from what we hear these are stab wounds of the neck. MR VALLY MS KLAPP Yes, what we understand by: "cut-throat" is a large wound right in front of the neck, they are on occasions self-inflicted but may be inflicted by somebody else but what we have here are three discrete penetrating incised wounds of the neck, this is not a "cut-throat". MR VALLY Fine. And any other wounds that you observed on the body? MS KLAPP MR VALLY Would that be consistent with an assault? MS KLAPP MR VALLY MS KLAPP There may have been more injuries but due to the marked state of decomposition, the brain had liquefied but with that bruising of the scalp one would in fact expect damage of the brain within the cranial cavity. I was unable to assess that due to the liquefaction of the brain. MR VALLY Thank you Doctor Klapp. DR BORAINE Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA I have no questions. DR BORAINE Any one else? Mr Richard? MR RICHARD One question. My client Mr Richardson has described killing Mr Sepei by slaughtering him like a sheep, at that implies splitting the throat, are the wounds consistent with that description? MS KLAPP There has not been a slaughtering of the neck, we have three discrete wounds measuring the sizes of which I have given you. I do mention in the report that the two on the right hand side do not communicate with the one on the left, in other words there are two on the right, one on the left which do not cross the mid line. MR RICHARD No further questions. DR BORAINE Thank you. Anybody else? Dr Randera? DR RANDERA Just one questions Doctor, were there any fractures? MS KLAPP DR RANDERA There were no fractures of the skull? MS KLAPP No fractures of the skull. DR RANDERA Thank you. DR BORAINE Miss Sooka? MS SOOKA Just quickly Doctor, you say: "stab wound", would that be consistent with the use of a knife or a dagger, what kind of weapon? MS KLAPP DR BORAINE MS KLAPP Thanks. DR BORAINE Wait a minute, I want to thank you. I want to thank you very much particularly for the precise way and professional way in which you responded to the questions, thank you for your evidence, thank you. We are now adjourned until 2.30p.m. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We call Lerothodi Ikaneng, sorry, we call Euvodia Nkadimeng. Is there a briefer, thank you. I know you are probably also feeling tired but you are expected to be untiring. Miss Nkadimeng, welcome (No English translation), thank you very much. MS SOOKA Can you state your full names for the record please. MS NKADIMENG I am Magali Euvodia Nkadimeng. MS SOOKA Thank you. MAGALI EUVODIA NKADIMENG (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON We have lost our legal team. MR VALLY MR JORDI I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I thought it would be Lerothodi Ikaneng next. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VALLY Mr Peter Jordi. MR JORDI Miss Nkadimeng, do you know somebody by the name of Johannes Temba or did you know somebody by the name of Johannes Temba Mabotha? MS NKADIMENG I know him. MR JORDI Can you please just repeat the answer for me? MS NKADIMENG Yes, I know him. MR JORDI Can you tell me in what circumstances you got to know him or knew him? MS NKADIMENG On the 26th of January 1988, I was detained from my home in Mankweng which is in Pietersburg and I was taken to Potgieterus Police cells and I discovered that I was not the only person in those police cells, there were another three and the three of them were men. CHAIRPERSON MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Okay. MS NKADIMENG All these comrades communicated with me by using underground letters and these letters were delivered to my by the sentenced prisoners when they were coming to clean our cells and each of the comrades explained himself to me. There was a comrade called George, there was a comrade called Makama, there was a comrade called Temba (end of tape - no sound for follow on) MR JORDI ... released from custody. MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI When was that? Do you know approximately? MS NKADIMENG It was in 1988 because I spent five months in prison and I was released during July 1988 and I was restricted at home so I stayed at home and one of the good days I went to the shop. When I came back my family told me that there was a person with the name of Johannes Mabotha who came there and wanted to see me. They told him that I was away and then he left but promised that he would come the following day and he did come the following day. MR JORDI And thereafter, what happened between you and him? MS NKADIMENG On that day when he found me at home, he asked me to accompany me him to a certain township in Tzaneen called Linyene and I agreed. MR JORDI As I understand you got to know him quite well, is that correct? MS NKADIMENG Yes, I would say so. MR JORDI Thereafter you visited other people in custody and they mentioned things to you that they knew regarding Temba, can you tell me about that? MS NKADIMENG Yes. Before Temba could come to my home for the first time as a comrade and as an activist, I was supposed to visit other comrades who were in detention by then and the fortunate part it was that one of the comrades was MK cadre and he was awaiting trial by then. When I paid the visit to him he told me that he knew a certain person called Johannes Mabotha and I asked him how did he come to know this person, he told me that Temba was removed from the Potgieterus cells and he was taken to Pietersburg Police cells wherein he found this comrade in the next cell. This comrade by then was just under Section 29 and then Temba told them that he knew me, he met me at Potgietersrust and also he wanted to know my activities from those comrades and that is how it happened. MR JORDI What did you start to feel about Temba at this time. MS NKADIMENG I was frightened because I knew Temba told me that while we were in Potgietersrust that he will visit me at home when he gets released. MR JORDI Did you have a sense that he was reliable, somebody to be trusted or did you feel otherwise about him? MS NKADIMENG At first when he started communicating with me in Pogietersrust he told me about a certain cadre who was residing in Mankweng called Lucky Sikosana, I knew Lucky, he was a comrade and we regarded him as a comrade. But then, after my release when I was under restrictions at home, I was surprised to find Lucky at home and I enquired from my fellow comrades who were not detained, about this question of Lucky being around here. They told me horrible things about Lucky and I started to suspect that since Temba knows about Lucky and now Lucky is working for the police, then it means that these two people have connections and that confirmed what my comrades in prison told me. MR JORDI So you understood that Lucky was working for the police, Temba had contacts with Lucky and therefore Temba was somebody who you should be suspicious about? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI In January 1989 you were visited at home, is that right? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI Can you tell me who visited you and in what circumstances? MS NKADIMENG Early 1989 - that was January, Temba came to my home but I was not around as I went to the pre-school to fetch the smaller kids and I was with my sister. When we approached my home we saw two men wearing black suits and they were all wearing black spectacles, we wondered what were the men doing at our home because there was nobody there at that time and it was during the day. But because Temba knew that I was so suspicious - every time I was too suspicious about his information, I just told myself that Temba is trying to win my confidence so I need not believe too much on that. MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI So what did you do to establish whether his information was correct or not? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI What else did he tell you that proved to be confirmatory for you as far as his allegation that he came from the Mandela household was concerned? MS NKADIMENG And I said: "How did they come to trust you"? He said: "You cannot even believe it, you know I know that Mrs Mandela has got white hair" I said: "Temba, how do you come to know that"? He said: "No, Mrs Mandela allowed here here" He point it out and then he also told me: MR JORDI Later in 1989 you were again visited at home by Temba, is that right? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI Can you describe to me what the circumstances were surrounding that visit? Who came to your house with Temba and what did you do as a result of that visit? MS NKADIMENG When he opened the door I saw Xoliswa, Katiza Cebekhulu and there was this guy called Bosmonts. MR JORDI So Xoliswa - when you refer to Xoliswa, who are you referring to? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Thank you. So these people arrived at your house and what did they do after their arrival? MS NKADIMENG Because it was during the night I slept with Xoliswa in the same bedroom and I made sure that Bosmonts and Katiza sleep there. MR JORDI Did you speak to them and establish why they had come unannounced at your home? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI And what did you start to feel after he had not arrived - and I understand you heard rumours circulating in the community? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI I understand that you then discussed Temba with Miss Falati, is that correct? MS NKADIMENG I took my restriction actually before that. What happened here is that Temba came again - after the disappearance and not fulfilling the promise that he promised me, he came again and he took Bosmont and then he disappeared. Then after all this - after Xoliswa had actually explained the whole thing, I started to doubt the information that came from my comrades in prison and the information that I got now during that time when Temba and Richardson came to my home as well as the information I got from Xoliswa at that time. MR JORDI You started to doubt the information, what did you do about your doubts? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI So what did you do about that? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI And what did you decide to do during the course of that discussion, what conclusion did you reach? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI So you decided then with Miss Falati to go to Soweto, is that right? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI You then arrived in Soweto and what did you do on arrival in Soweto? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Your role was then explained to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that right? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI Can you describe what happened during that process? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI What decision was reached after you gave this information? MS NKADIMENG It just happened that I explained the whole issue and my comrade from the township also confirmed the whole issue and then the meeting dispersed, then we were just around the yard. MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI Can you tell me what happened on his arrival? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Who was he referring to when he referred to impimpies? MS NKADIMENG He was referring to me and Xoliswa. MR JORDI And what was the result of his allegation that you were an informer? MS NKADIMENG What I understood - because during the conversation I was not present during that time when he explained his position, I was just told that he implicated me as an impimpi and then there was a decision made and I was called the following day to come and explain myself exactly the way I did for the first time. MR JORDI Where were you invited to go? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI And who was present when you met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela at her offices? MS NKADIMENG That very day when I heard, I was taken to the office and I knocked on the door of the office - I was with Xoliswa, I knocked on the door and the door was opened, I got in, I only found Mrs Mandela and Temba in the office. MR JORDI So you found Mrs Madikizela-Mandela there as well as Temba and what happened after you saw them there? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Did you present the story? MS NKADIMENG Yes, I did. MR JORDI What was the result of you passing on this information to Temba and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Now, I understand that you spent approximately a month in Soweto living with Miss Falati but spending most of your time in the Madikizela-Mandela home, is that correct? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI And that you were thereafter detained at the Protea Police Station, can you tell me what happened when you were questioned by they police at the Protea Police Station? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI And what happened as a result of your perhaps unique resistance to being detained under Section 29? MS NKADIMENG I told them that there is a story that happened to me and they were not there when these things happened to me and as such they have to listen to me and after the whole story they must give me a charge and I will accept it because I know what my charge is. MR JORDI So you said that they must know the whole story from you? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI Did you tell them what you knew? MS NKADIMENG Yes. What they said was that they understood that I was moving around with an MK cadre called Temba and that is why they wanted to detain me under Section 29, they thought I was a trained cadre. I asked them: "Are you sure that Temba is an MK cadre"? They said: "No, we want to get the story from you" and I said: "Okay, then you listen to me". I related the whole story, how I knew Temba and how I came to land in Soweto. MR JORDI What did you tell them about your suspicions regarding Temba? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI How did this interrogation terminate, what event happened? MS NKADIMENG "Do you Euvodia, do you know what they are saying over the phone"? and I said: He said: "They say Temba has been arrested" I said: "where" He said: "In Groblersdal" He said to me: MR JORDI Did you see him the following day?? MS NKADIMENG Yes, I did. MR JORDI During your interrogation you spoke to a Lieutenant Augustine, is that right? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI What did you discuss with him? MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG I could see from her face that she was shocked because she even excused herself for a few minutes from that meeting after I explained the whole thing. MR JORDI You say that a phone call was made to say that Temba had been arrested and he was brought to Protea Police Station the following day? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI Did you see him the following day? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR JORDI What condition was he in when you saw him? MS NKADIMENG He was handcuffed on the feet and also on the hands and I found him seated on the chair with those handcuffs and the security police were surrounding the four walls of the room. I entered and then they asked Temba to identify me They asked him: "Do you know this woman"? He said: "Yes" And they said: And he said: "Euvodia Nkadimeng" And they said: "Your girlfriend" And he said: "No" MR JORDI MS NKADIMENG MR JORDI Can you describe when you last saw Temba? In what circumstances did you see him? MS NKADIMENG Yes. Temba was assaulted, I could see there was blood on the lips and then what happened the very last moment was that after he identified me in that interrogating room, they never asked me any questions about that and then they just took us together with Temba in a private car to Middleburg Police Station. When we arrived in Middelburg, they took Temba for - before that, I complained about hunger to the security and then they told me that they did not have money but they would send someone to the police station to find money to buy food. Temba offered me a pie, it was in his pocket and then he asked me to take it out as he was handcuffed and they took Temba for a few minutes into the police station and then thereafter they took him to another car and that was my last time I saw Temba. MR JORDI I understand that you heard that he had been killed whilst in police custody and that Colonel de Kock was linked to his death, is that right? MS NKADIMENG Yes, I read it in the Sunday Times. MR JORDI Thank you Miss Nkadimeng. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Hanif? MR VALLY MS NKADIMENG Yes, I would say. MR VALLY And can you tell us what you would have expected or what you knew would happen to alleged informers? MS NKADIMENG I usually read about that, that they were killed. MR VALLY Will you repeat that please? MS NKADIMENG I usually read from the press that when comrades get informers they kill them. MR VALLY MS NKADIMENG No, nothing happened, actually he was treated more like a comrade than an informer. MR VALLY Were you surprised at this? MS NKADIMENG MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG I appeared in court every month for five months but I ...[intervention] MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG Pardon? MR SEMENYA Can I interrupt you? MR VALLY Mr Chair, could I interrupt Mr Semenya? CHAIRPERSON Who is interrupting whom? Yes? MR VALLY Miss Nkadimeng was requested by ourselves to come to this hearing, the reason she was requested to come to this hearing is in following up information given to us by the police officers who were here yesterday in trying to track down the whole issue of Mr Johannes Mabotha, especially as we had obtained a copy of a human rights violations statement by a family member of Mr Johannes Mabotha. MR SEMENYA MR VALLY To what extent were the police complicit in the incidents that happened at the Madikizela-Mandela household - number one, number two, to what extent is the Mandela United Football Club and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela involved in the whole issue of Stompie and the subsequent attempts at covering up. CHAIRPERSON I think you should put your questions to the witness. MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR SEMENYA And all of a sudden they are no longer going to Lusaka, they are coming back with you to Soweto? MS NKADIMENG Yes. MR SEMENYA Can you explain that to us. MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG Sorry for the correction, Richardson was not involved in this trip, it was Xoliswa, Cebekhulu and Bosmont, not Richardson. MR SEMENYA Okay, why did Bosmont, Xoliswa and Cebekhulu not continue to Lusaka, do you know? MS NKADIMENG Temba left them at my home. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG May you repeat your question? MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA Because ...[intervention] MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG I would say so because I had to make them return to Soweto. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA Did anybody lift an arm for you? MS NKADIMENG No. MR SEMENYA Did anybody use vile language against you? MS NKADIMENG No. MR SEMENYA Did anybody say they were going to kill you? MS NKADIMENG And as I said, Mrs Mandela was always in the company of Temba. Temba I understand was busy everyday, he was busy fabricating stories against me but he was not telling me straight. He would tell Mrs Mandela and Mrs Mandela would tell Xoliswa, Xoliswa would come to me and I would deny the whole thing and Xoliswa would go and tell Mrs Mandela again that: "Euvodia is denying the whole thing". Temba got again - with those stories on an everyday basis until I was arrested. MR SEMENYA You say Mr Mabotha was your boyfriend? MS NKADIMENG I say so. MR SEMENYA Was Mr Mabotha your boyfriend? MS NKADIMENG I would say in quotes because I said yes to his proposal and even when we went to Tzaneen he slept with me. MR SEMENYA What does that mean? MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA And yet you sleep with him. MS NKADIMENG Yes, I slept with him. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Order please, this is not a film. MR SEMENYA Let me put it to you that Johannes Mabotha is not Temba, the name Temba was given to him by Mrs Mandela. MS NKADIMENG Can I give my version about that? MR SEMENYA Yes. MS NKADIMENG Yes. MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG I assumed it was a nickname but the real thing is, he is Johannes Mabotha and not Mabothe - t - h - a. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG I cannot deny that because I only found him being referred to as Temba, as to the origin of the name I cannot tell. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG Do you want me to confirm that or? MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA Why does he get arrested when you are there with the security police? MS NKADIMENG What happened at the house of Mrs Mandela was very clear that if I move out of the house to anywhere Temba will follow me because I revealed about him what he never expected. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG Actually Temba was not with me because the security told me that he was arrested in Grobblersdal and by that time I was arrested in Soweto. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG Actually when they brought Temba to me I was not asked any questions to identify the man. They asked him to identify me and he identified me clearly because I never had any means, those were the right means and he said that. I was never asked by the security to identify the man. MR SEMENYA Were you ever charged arising out of your arrest of that moment when you last saw Temba? MS NKADIMENG Was I ever charged? MR SEMENYA Yes. MS NKADIMENG Yes, I was. MR SEMENYA For what? MS NKADIMENG For crossing the restrictions, for moving from Pietersburg to Soweto without permission from the security police as I was restricted person. MR SEMENYA MS NKADIMENG MR SEMENYA I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Order please. It is going to be important for that fact to be established because as all of us know even today it is one of the most dangerous things to assert and it will be important that it is established beyond reasonable doubt. MR VALLY "Whilst listening in it came to our attention ("aan die lig gekom") that a person named Goerge ( Johannes Mabotha) was on the scene and it could be determined that he was possibly a trained MK military person. While listening in it was determined that George on a certain date was in the Marble Hall area and he needed money to get back to Soweto, he requested Mrs Mandela to telegraph money to the local Post Office. On receipt of the said money George was arrested by members of the security branch and (Soweto Opspoorings Eenheid), he was arrested" And this is from Captain Potgieter. I will give this amnesty application to Mr Semenya, annexed to it is also the relevant section of the de Kock trial transcript, thank you Mr Chair. MR JORDI CHAIRPERSON Would you be able to answer that? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I have put the assertion to the witness on the strength of information that suggests that the witness would have been in collaboration with Jerry Richardson and Cebekhulu when at a time - as my client would say, she did not know that these people had some contact with the police, that is the basis on which the statement was made to the particular witness. CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA MS SOOKA MR SEMENYA They are my instructions Madam Commissioner, they are my instructions Madam Commissioner. MR JORDI MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I have nothing to withdraw. If my learned colleague wants to accuse me of having acted unprofessionally, I think we have a forum where he would lay the complaint and I will defend it. CHAIRPERSON And I would hope that - it would be important that it be reconsidered and if it is your considered position, it is your considered position and we will have to take note of that. MR SEMENYA MR JORDI Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, have you finished? MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON MR JORDI CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA Chairperson, can I welcome that ruling and indicate that I think equally difficult must be the type of statements which are made about my client having relationships with Temba when there is no basis at all to say such things. And for the 7 days that I have been here, the ...[indistinct] which have been made about her I have never as yet to see the factual basis upon which those allegations have been made and maybe this is what is confusing the tenia of the evidence that is tendered. CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA No, I do not have any further questions. CHAIRPERSON MR JORDI I just have one question for Miss Nkadimeng. Were you ever a police informer or a police operative or did you ever willingly co-operate with the police in any way during the period under discussion? MS NKADIMENG I would say I am a well-known activist in the Northern Province and I think credibility is being built by a person. If people elect you into a certain position within the ANC, then you tell yourself that you are a trusted and that has been happening until today. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, can the witness be warned not to describe Temba in terms which she does not have a factual basis to support ...[indistinct] CHAIRPERSON I think that you have answered the question your legal representative has put to you. Thank you very, very much. Sorry, did you? MR VALLY No, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Oh, you are wonderful. We thank you, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON The next witness is Lerothodi Ikaneng. MR IKANENG Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Zulu? Ikaneng - what kind of a Zulu is that? Are you speaking in Zulu? MR IKANENG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much for coming today, we do trust and hope that you will assist us to reach the truth. Miss Sooka will help you take an oath. MS SOOKA Are you able to hear me clearly? MR IKANENG Yes. MS SOOKA Could you state your full names for the record please? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, order please. MS SOOKA Could you state your full names for the record please? LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG (sworn states) MR MAKANJEE CHAIRPERSON MR MAKANJEE Mr Ikaneng, were you a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MR IKANENG Yes. MR MAKANJEE When did you join the club? MR IKANENG We formed the club in 1987, not that I joined it. MR MAKANJEE Am I correct in understanding you that the club was only formed in 1987? MR IKANENG Yes, that is so. MR MAKANJEE The reason I ask you this is just to clarify a point, Absolon Madonsela made a statement saying that sometime in April 1987 the club was disbanded, can you comment on that? MR IKANENG No, it was not disbanded, it was never disbanded. MR MAKANJEE You were detained after an incident in Zola, is that correct? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE How long were you detained for? MR IKANENG For 10 months. MR MAKANJEE Which year was this in? MR IKANENG In 1987. MR MAKANJEE Was this after you joined the football club? MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR MAKANJEE Can you tell us, the events that led to your being detained after that even in Zola? MR IKANENG I woke up and as I woke up some were left behind and I went on ahead to the car and we drove off to Zola. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR MAKANJEE Can you briefly describe that incident that took place? MR IKANENG We got out the car and we rushed to the scene and when we got inside there, there were two ladies standing outside and "C" spoke to those ladies. We got out and walked down the street to a certain house, when we got there we knocked at the door and we surrounded the house. We knocked at the front and at the back and on the windows as well. When they tried to peep through the windows we showed them the hand grenades, they were so terrified. They opened the door and we got one boy who was inside that house and we went back to the first house that we were at. When we got there we found those two ladies still standing there and this boy told the other lady that she should give us the gun. He went through the bedroom and closed the door, we pushed the door and it could not open. He pulled out the gun and shot the door and the door burst open and we found him lying on the bed and the other one who was shot was just laying right next to the door. Bobo pulled him and lifted up the bed and Bobo pulled him and put right next to the other one who was laying by the door. "C" appeared immediately and shot again and we left immediately. MR MAKANJEE For the purpose of the record, who is Bobo? MR IKANENG That is Charles Zwane. MR MAKANJEE And after this incident you were detained in connection with this incident, is that correct? MR IKANENG Yes, that is correct. MR MAKANJEE When you were released, what did you do? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Can you tell us about the Dalywonga High School incident? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG The cause for that was that during the detention in Protea - there were two clubs, there was one girls club and the boys club and the girls club was called Mandela Sisters. There was another girl who was playing for Mandela Sisters because when I got back from detention there was Mandela Sisters and this other girl belonged to that club. One time she was in town in a disco image club and that same evening she could not get transport coming back home and was given a ride from certain boys in Duwe and she was raped. MR MAKANJEE The boys in Duwe, were they members of the Mandela Football Club? MR IKANENG No, they were not football club members, they were just students at Dalywonga. MR MAKANJEE Carry on. MR IKANENG In the afternoon after work when I got back home I found them at home, they were already assaulted when I got them - when I found them in Lusaka. The other two I knew from Lower Primary School, I asked them as to what happened, what was happening and what they wanted there, they told me that this girl is alleging that we raped her. MR MAKANJEE Mr Ikaneng, slow down. Who collected these boys who were belonging to Dalywonga High School? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE When you say: "home", whose home are you referring to? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Would you describe the condition that you found these boys in? MR IKANENG Yes. They were sjamboked and one could tell that they electrocuted in some way and it was usual that they were tortured and electrocuted as well. MR MAKANJEE Where were they being kept in the house itself? MR IKANENG They were in a shack, the one we refer to as Lusaka. MR MAKANJEE Now did anybody who lived in the house at that stage enter this shack at any stage during these assaults? MR IKANENG When they were being assaulted, Zinzi Mandela is the one who was instigating and saying they are rapist and they must be tortured. MR MAKANJEE Okay, let me just get one thing clear, you said just now that you were not present when they were assaulted, are you now saying that there was more than one assault on these boys? MR IKANENG When I got there they were already assaulted and again at night we assaulted them. MR MAKANJEE So, at night when the assault took place, who was carrying out these assaults? MR IKANENG It was us the football club members and Zinzi herself participated. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG Zinzi was instigating the whole thing and was re-enforcing the assault. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG Yes, Bheki Mashlangu. MR MAKANJEE Was that around the same time that Toli Dlamini was killed? MR IKANENG Yes, that was the day. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Sorry, Sizwe that you refer to, who is Sizwe? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Continue. MR IKANENG All the people who were drinking came out the house and Sizwe called me after he shot in the air, he was pointing the gun at me as he called me. I went to him and he pushed me with the gun and we went back to the passage that we used coming to the house. When we got to the passage I was thinking that the next culprit will be me, I will be the next one who will be shot. We went to ask Butele - we went to the other street from the passage and we heard a gunshot. We found out that Sizwe Sithole was shooting. MR MAKANJEE Who was Sizwe Sithole shooting? MR IKANENG Toli was being shot by Sizwe Sithole. MR MAKANJEE Okay. Did you make a statement to the police in regard to that event? MR IKANENG You mean revenge? MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG Yes, I did. MR MAKANJEE And did you attend the trial as well and give evidence in that trial? MR IKANENG No, I did not. MR MAKANJEE Can you tell us what occurred after this? MR IKANENG On that day Toli tried to escape and Sizwe Sithole - and they grabbed him and he fell and Sizwe pulled out the magazine and put another one on the gun and we were approaching. He pointed the gun at us now, we ran away. MR MAKANJEE Mr Ikaneng, I want to know, after Toli was shot by Mr Sithole, what happened then? MR IKANENG The following day we met with these comrades that we were supposed to go to the night vigil with, I asked them if it was acceptable for the way Toli was murdered and maybe we should call Mrs Mandela as to why Toli was killed in the manner which he was killed in. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG Yes, we did. MR MAKANJEE What happened? MR IKANENG We went to Diepkloof, when we got there we were taken inside the house and we occupied the dining room and Mrs Mandela came with Zinzi and some other boys who were football members and Richardson was there as well. We sat down and Mrs Mandela asked what our story was, why are we there and I told her that we were there to find out why Toli was killed like that. MR MAKANJEE When you say home, are you referring to your own house? MR IKANENG Repeat? MR MAKANJEE When you say home, are you referring to your own house? MR IKANENG Yes, they took me back home where I stay. MR MAKANJEE Subsequent to that a gentleman named Shoes collected you and took you back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that correct? MR IKANENG We met Shoes at the swimming pool, we saw Shoes there at the swimming pool, I was with Gift Ntombeni and he said: "Mum wants to see you at the office". We all went to the offices and when we got to the offices - when I looked at them, they looked very angry and we sat down - there were sofas there. MR MAKANJEE Who was present at the office? MR IKANENG It was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as well as Zinzi. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] find out ...[intervention] MR MAKANJEE Two minutes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I want to find out whether I should use the guillotine. Yes, all right. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG Okay. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG We sat down, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said: "Is this what we have come for in the Mandela family" MR MAKANJEE What did you think she was talking about? MR IKANENG Gift was leading the way, he had his own escort and I was escorted by Shoes. When we got outside they opened the door of the car, Gift got in and I escaped. MR MAKANJEE You escaped and where did you go to? MR IKANENG I went home and I told them what was happening and the fact that I was chased and as I was still there ...[intervention] MR MAKANJEE Where did you go when you escaped? MR IKANENG I went to Sharpeville. MR MAKANJEE That was around October 1988, is that correct? MR IKANENG Yes. MR MAKANJEE On the 3rd of January you returned to Soweto, is that correct? MR IKANENG Yes. MR MAKANJEE You met Jerry Richardson, is that correct? MR IKANENG yes. MR MAKANJEE Jerry Richardson and members of the United Football Club proceeded to assault you, is that correct? MR IKANENG That is correct. MR MAKANJEE How did they assault you? MR IKANENG Amongst these men there was another one who was trying to dismantle the garden shears and it came into two pieces and ...[indistinct] pointed at one guy to come and stab me but this guy refused and Jerry took the garden shears himself and stabbed me on the chest. MR MAKANJEE Did he stab you anywhere else? MR IKANENG No, on my neck or throat. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG It was only on the neck. MR MAKANJEE Can you show us where he stabbed you. MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Okay. Did you think they thought they had left you for dead at that stage? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAKANJEE In a letter dated the 21st of April 1995 from the National Intelligence Agency to the Commanding Officer of the SAPS, it was stated that you were approached by some members of the Mandela United Football Club who asked you to join the SANDF or who in fact ordered you to join the SANDF to prevent you from talking about the death of Toli Dlamini, is this true? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Makanjee, you say there was one or two things that you - yes, all right. MR MAKANJEE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Ikaneng, after your assault where your throat was cut, did you go into hiding? MR IKANENG Yes. MR MAKANJEE Then in 1990 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can you please - people please, thank you very much. MR MAKANJEE In 1990 you were assaulted again, is that correct? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Who shot you Mr Ikaneng? MR IKANENG Mateo a member of the Mandela Football Club. MR MAKANJEE Why did they want to kill you, do you know? MR IKANENG MR MAKANJEE Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Piers? MR PIGOU Thank you Chair. Mr Ikaneng, I just want to go back to the context of the formation of the football club and ask you whether you agree or disagree with what I put forward to you. Do you recall the death of a Masabata Luate, the sister of Wilson Sebuwane who was also known as Magojo? Was the death of this woman - did this result in tension and fighting within SAYCO, the Soweto Youth Congress Movement of which I believe you were a member at the time? MR IKANENG Yes, I do remember. MR PIGOU And was it as a result of this fight that the football club came together, that there was a decision to bring people together and find some activities for these people to undertake and that a decision was taken at a meeting that you would play football? MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR PIGOU Were you present at that meeting Mr Ikaneng? MR IKANENG Which meeting are you referring to? MR PIGOU Where the decision was taken to form a football club. MR IKANENG Yes, I was present. MR PIGOU So the football club members were people from two opposing sides so to speak, would that be correct? MR IKANENG Yes, that is correct. MR PIGOU MR IKANENG MR PIGOU "There was no such incident that occurred and there was no such report brought to my attention and there was no such a thing as Mandela Sisters" Could you respond to that? MR IKANENG MR PIGOU MR IKANENG Yes, I did. MR PIGOU MR IKANENG No. MR PIGOU Have you ever met him? MR IKANENG MR PIGOU And what year was this that you met Mr Cebekhulu? MR IKANENG It was in 1990. MR PIGOU MR IKANENG MR PIGOU MR IKANENG Yes, it is. MR PIGOU Thank you. Now, in testimony that you gave to the court in your own trial: State versus Ikaneng into the murder of Maxwell Madondo, you indicate at a certain point that the reason for the attack on Toli Dlamini was because he had given evidence and Biza I think had been convicted on that evidence, is that correct? MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR PIGOU And as a result of him having given evidence against Biza he was branded as an impimpie, is that correct? MR IKANENG That Biza is an impimpie, could you please rephrase it? MR PIGOU Certainly, I beg your pardon. Was Toli Dlamini labelled as an impimpie for giving evidence against Biza? MR IKANENG That is correct. MR PIGOU Thank you. Did you give a statement to the South African Police about your witnessing the death of Sizwe Sithole? Sorry, I beg your pardon, did you give a statement to the South African Police in relation to the death of Toli Dlamini? MR IKANENG That is correct. MR PIGOU MR IKANENG With regard to Dlamini? MR PIGOU MR IKANENG MR PIGOU Thank you. After you had been assaulted and your throat had been cut by Mr Jerry Richardson, did you attend a public meeting on the 16th of January in Dobsonville where I believe members of the so-called Mandela Crisis Committee and community leaders - church leaders and so forth, were present and where we believe that - we are told that you related what happened to you, did that in fact happen? MR IKANENG Yes, I did. MR PIGOU MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR PIGOU And that those complaints were shown to Mrs Mandela and that Mrs Mandela chose which people were to be brought to the house or asked to come to the house, is that correct? MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR PIGOU And that there was a Disciplinary Committee which was headed by I believe, Mr Sizwe Sithole and with other members Shoes and Mateo on that Committee, is that correct? MR IKANENG MR PIGOU And that as a result of the decisions taken by that Committee, punishment was administered to guilty people or guilty parties by members of the football club, is that correct. MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR PIGOU And did Mrs Mandela participate in the Disciplinary Committee? MR IKANENG MR PIGOU Did Mr Jerry Richardson participate? MR IKANENG MR PIGOU MR IKANENG That is true. MR PIGOU MR IKANENG Yes, that is true. MR PIGOU And were you personally Mr Ikaneng, were you beaten? MR IKANENG Yes, I was. MR PIGOU And who participated in those assaults? MR IKANENG Other members, core members. MR PIGOU Can you give us any names? MR IKANENG MR PIGOU Thank you. In February 1989 in your evidence in trial you said that your brother Pete Ikaneng had come to warn you about a meeting that had taken place in which a decision had been taken to either fetch you or to kill you and Sibusiso ...[indistinct] Chili, is that correct? MR IKANENG Dodo, not Ikaneng. MR PIGOU Was your brother Pete Ikaneng a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MR IKANENG No. MR PIGOU Never a member. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, yes. MR SEMENYA We learn Sir, that even before the formation of the football team, you would highjack furniture trucks that came into the township, is that right? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA And at whose instance were you doing these things? MR IKANENG CHAIRPERSON MR IKANENG The decision would be taken at a meeting of SOYCO in Orlando West. MR SEMENYA And these activities, did they stop when the football team was formed? MR IKANENG Yes. MR SEMENYA Was there a meeting where SOYCO decided not to stop the targets? MR IKANENG No. MR SEMENYA Did you witness the Mandela United Football Club play soccer? MR IKANENG Yes. MR SEMENYA Until what period did they continue playing soccer? MR IKANENG When I came back from detention in 1987 we continued playing soccer until 1980 I think - sorry 1988. MR SEMENYA The attack on you, when was it? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA And you say you were attacked by the members of the football team? MR IKANENG Yes. MR SEMENYA Why do you describe them as members of the football team? MR IKANENG When I decided to move away from the Mandela Football - from the Mandela yard, they still called themselves the Mandela Football Club. MR SEMENYA Is that the reason why you call them the Mandela Football Team? MR IKANENG Yes. MR SEMENYA According to you, is this team - the Mandela Football team, still in existence? MR IKANENG Not now. MR SEMENYA Are you able to tell me when it stopped to exist? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA Are you able to give us an impression maybe of when in your opinion it stopped to exist? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA I have a statement that says MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA Did you see them play any soccer beyond April/May? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA Against whom did you play in 1988? MR IKANENG Many clubs. MR SEMENYA MR IKANENG Could you please repeat your question? MR SEMENYA Are you able to give us names of teams you played against in 1988? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA Your allegation that Mrs Mandela assaulted you is incorrect, what is your response? MR IKANENG MR SEMENYA No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You have to help me, I was told there was a Miss Sita - you are Miss Sita? MS HASSEN Yes, Mr Chair, my name is Hasina Hassen and this Mrs Kalpana Sita, we are different individuals from the same firm. CHAIRPERSON MS HASSEN Mr Chair, I just want to put one little question to Mr Ikaneng. Mrs Ikaneng, I just want to put one aspect to you to clarify it. I represent Charles Zwane who is also known as Charles Bobo and I just want to put it to you that he was acquitted from the murder Xola Makahula and he had no part really in putting the body together, he in fact did not enter into the room in Zola. Can I confirm this? MR IKANENG No, we were with him in Zola. MS HASSEN Yes, I do know that you were with him in Zola but that he was acquitted for this murder of Xola Makahula, do you know of this? MR IKANENG MS HASSEN The incident that you went to Zola for, the one that you just gave the Commission evidence about earlier in your statement. MR IKANENG MS HASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I was just thinking that this time round Mr Richard would be missing. Yes? MR UNTERHALTER David Unterhalter for the Chili family. May I ask you two questions, firstly did Sizwe Sithole have a brother named Samele? MR IKANENG MR UNTERHALTER MR IKANENG MR UNTERHALTER Whose decision was this? MR IKANENG MR UNTERHALTER Did he say whether Mrs Mandela knew of the decision or had taken the decision? MR IKANENG MR UNTERHALTER Do you know whether any attack was then carried out on Sibusiso? MR IKANENG MR UNTERHALTER And was that Mr Madondo? MR IKANENG That is correct. MR UNTERHALTER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard? MS KLAPP Thank you Chairperson. Sir, is it not correct that in 1987 after your release from detention, you were brought before the Disciplinary Committee on the basis that Sizwe Sithole and Ronnie Sekekune felt that your behaviour was irresponsible and led to breaches of security of the soccer team? MR IKANENG MR RICHARD MR IKANENG Could you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD MR IKANENG These were things that happened after I was released from detention. MR RICHARD Anytime during 1987? MR IKANENG No, during 1988 before the house was burnt down. MR RICHARD MR IKANENG Yes, during 1988. MR RICHARD MR IKANENG Yes, that is true but particularly with Sizwe Sithole - we were in good terms with Ronnie Sekekune. MR RICHARD MR IKANENG Yes. MR RICHARD And indeed when Mr Richardson says "Mrs Chili was seen by Mrs Mandela and by the team, to be an opponent of Mrs Mandela" That was the feeling amongst the team? MR IKANENG I did not know anything about that. MR RICHARD Is it not correct that one day you stole a gun from the Mayor of Soweto? MR IKANENG No, the Mayor of Soweto was disarmed by certain comrades. MR RICHARD MR IKANENG MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Did you ever plan to kill anyone in the team? MR IKANENG No. MR RICHARD You never had a feeling of ill-will towards my client Mr Richardson? MR IKANENG No. MR RICHARD When Mr Richardson and the others found you - according to the version before me, you were near the Imzimshlope hostel, is that correct? MR IKANENG No, not Imzimshlope hostel, in the location - the residential area, not the hostel. MR RICHARD But how far from the hostel? MR IKANENG MR RICHARD And then to conclude, you were taken by force and an attempt was made on your life. How long is the scar on your neck, is it 4, 5cm or 8, 10cm? MR IKANENG MR RICHARD Indicate by showing on your hand - this long, that long? MR IKANENG I think this long. MR RICHARD MR IKANENG MR RICHARD When they attempted to stab you ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You are not surprised that the one minute is so long? MR RICHARD When you were attacked, did they use the shear in a cutting motion or a stabbing motion? MR IKANENG He pressed it against my throat, I think it was in a stabbing motion. He did not cut but he stabbed and pressed very hard for the shear to penetrate. MR RICHARD Thank you Chair, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Doctor Fazel? DR RANDERA On the other side we hear of many stories - the Dalybongwe one being one of those, where the football club gets involved - besides playing football, in all sorts of other activities, abducting people, shooting people, raping young women, Now this is what I want you to help me with, was there from your experience - right up to the time that you were living there, was there ever an occasion or occasions where you saw or heard Mrs Madikizela-Mandela saying to these young people - yourself included, "Go and do these things"? MR IKANENG At no stage did I hear that. DR RANDERA MR IKANENG I remember one instance where a certain young man by the name of ...[indistinct] had robbed a certain person of money and people came to complain and he was beaten up and sent to the police station at a later stage. DR RANDERA MR IKANENG That is correct. DR RANDERA You get involved in the club, you go the house and it seems to me that you leave the house after the Dalybongwe incident which is July of 1988 but the first time you seem to report it - besides the police, the first time you report this incident is on the 16th of January where you suddenly turn up at the church. Now, in that intervening period from July till January, did you ever go to any members of the Crisis Committee, did you ever go to the South African Council of Churches, did you ever go to the Archbishop whose house was not very far from where you were to say these things are happening, can something be done? Did you? MR IKANENG No. DR RANDERA Why not? MR IKANENG It never occurred to me to do that. DR RANDERA Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Makanjee? MR MAKANJEE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ikaneng, just to clarify a few points. These highjackings that you took part in, would you say they were similar to highjackings that we experience today or was it part of a tactic of the liberation struggle? MR IKANENG Yes, it was more or less related to the struggle for liberation, it was not just a criminal act like it is happening today. MR MAKANJEE MR IKANENG No. MR MAKANJEE Thank you, nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Have you finished? Piers? No? Thank you very much. Lerothodi Ikaneng, thank you very much, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We now call Dudu, Sibusiso and Barbara Chili. CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON CHILE FAMILY Zulu. CHAIRPERSON I would like to thank you once more for coming today to share your story with us. Hanif, what do you want to do? MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, do you want to do that immediately now? MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON MR VALLY I can do it after the witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Please stand up. (No English translation) CHILE FAMILY No English translation. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS SOOKA Will you each state your full names for the record please. MR S CHILI MR D CHILI Dud Chili. MRS B CHILI Barbara Chili. MR S CHILI (sworn states) MS D CHILI (sworn states) MRS B CHILI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter? MR UNTERHALTER Are you going to give evidence in English of Zulu? MS D CHILI MR UNTERHALTER Well, if you could give your evidence in English ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR UNTERHALTER Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR UNTERHALTER Thank you Chairperson. Can I ask you - to begin with, to go back to the years 1984 and 1986 and could you just briefly tell us what your activities were in community organisations at that time? MS D CHILI MR UNTERHALTER MS D CHILI Yes, it was. MR UNTERHALTER Could you tell us of your first meeting and dealings with Mrs Mandela? MS CHILI I met with Mrs Mandela face-to-face. It was when we were in a meeting of the Soweto Womens Group and Nana Kutimela had brought some letters for her from overseas and in the meeting it was asked who is supposed to take those letters to her. As an employee then they decided that I take those letters to her. I took those letters to her and that was the first time we met directly except that we used to meet in the gatherings, different gatherings. MR UNTERHALTER And was there any enmity between you and Mrs Mandela, any bad feelings at that point in 1986? MS CHILI Not that I know of. MR UNTERHALTER Now I want to ask you about events after the formation of the Mandela Football Club. Were there any efforts being made to bring your son, Sibusiso into that Club, could you tell us what happened? MS CHILI After the formation of the Football Club, I don't know after some few weeks Sibusiso came to me and said Mama, Bomonde, which belonged to the Football Club then, they are after him, they want to kill him. Then I said to myself it cannot be possible you know. I remember requesting Nondumiso Diniswayo(?) saying Nondumiso please accompany me, let's go to Winnie Mandela to find out why are the Football Club members wanting to kill Sibusiso. We went with Nondumiso. When we arrived at Mrs Mandela we sent a message because it was not easy to go directly into the house at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, she came out of the house and met us, we were outside, outside the yard. I asked her what is it that is happening, what had Sibusiso done that the Football Club wants to kill him. She said Dudu if he's not in the Football Club obviously the other boys will think that he's a sell-out. And to me that scared me really because those times when somebody is labelled as a sell-out it means he must die, so I just concluded that then they have concluded that he's a sell-out because he's not in the Football Club, maybe that's why they wanted to kill him. MR UNTERHALTER And what did you suggest to Sibusiso as far as joining this Club was concerned? MS CHILI I warned him not to join the Football Club with the other sons of mine. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. As far as you were aware what were the activities of this Club at the time, what was the reputation of the Club that led you to advise your son not to join it? MS CHILI At the beginning I did not know of any activities, the only thing is that I did not understand the Football Club issue especially relating to Mrs Winnie Mandela you know. It was just a question mark to me, I wasn't clear why a Football Club suddenly, and then I said they mustn't join the Football Club, it was when Nombulelo came to my place saying to me, Dudu, since my son has joined the Football Club he is no more coming at home. I said to her, look Nombulelo, I have nothing to do with the Football Club, the best thing is for you to go to Mrs Winnie Mandela's place and find out about your son. She went and came back to me and said Dudu can you - do you know what Mrs Winnie Mandela said to me? I said no, I don't know, she said because we are not feeding our children they are staying in her house because she is feeding them. That was the response that Winnie Madikizela-Mandela gave to Nombulelo. CHAIRPERSON Who is Nombulelo? MS CHILI Nombulelo is Nthando's mother, the one who came to complain that her son since he joined the Football Club, he is no more coming home. MR UNTERHALTER And what was your response, what was your - were you apprehensive about this Club? MS CHILI Then I realised that no, no, no, no, there was something wrong with the Football Club. Then that's the time when I said please don't join the Football Club because you can only join the Football Club if you are studying at home, but if you are not studying please don't join the Football Club. MR UNTERHALTER You don't starve your sons at home do you? MS CHILI I didn't. MR UNTERHALTER May I ask you then was there a report made to you right at the end of 1988 of the abduction of certain young people from a Methodist manse in Soweto? MS CHILI Yes it was the morning after the abduction. MR UNTERHALTER When was that, could you try and be precise? MS CHILI It was some time in December, I can't remember the date, but it was towards the end of December. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI It was Dada and Newu from the manse who came to my place to tell me that there are four youths who have been taken by the Football Club to Winnie Mandela's house. MR UNTERHALTER And to whom did you report this matter? MS CHILI I immediately phoned Reverend Mbangula who is the district, I don't know how we termed them, but he was the district somebody of the Methodist Church and I phoned the Civic people, I phoned Mrs Sisulu. The Civic people were also members of the UDF, so we were trying to inform the structures, the then structures that there is something of this sort that has happened. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. At the end of January 1989 can you tell us of a meeting that was held at which reports were made of the activities of the Football Club, were you at that meeting? MS CHILI The Mass Democratic, yes I was in that meeting. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI Where these four youths were handed over after they were released at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Now I want to then take you to February 1989 and a visit to your house by a man by the name of Todo, can you tell us what happened on that day? MS CHILI It was in evening, we were just relaxed you know and then this young man came, you could see that he was scared, he had this fear, he just - he was so much in a hurry that I have come to warn you that the decision has been taken at Winnie Mandela's, I don't know whether at his home or in the office, that Sibusiso and Lerothodi has been problematic, they have to be killed. MR UNTERHALTER Now who did, who was it said had made this decision? MS CHILI I was told that Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi Mhlongo were co-deciders of the sentence of death to my son. MR UNTERHALTER And was it indicated why exactly they wanted to do these things to your son? MS CHILI I didn't know why but before Todo came to tell us there were two youths which Ikaneng Lerothodi pointed out to Sibusiso at Beki's place that these are the two young men who helped Richardson when they cut my throat. At that point Sibusiso seeing Lerothodi getting cross he said no let's not fight them, let's rather take them to Mama so that Mama can speak to them. They came with these two boys to my place. It was late in the evening, it was after eight and it was late, I told them look there is nothing that I can do now because whatever I did I had to inform the leadership then. I did talk to them, why are you participating in horrible things like this you know and they were so humble you know, they explained that it is not intentionally but because if they don't participate in these things they are seen as being against the Football Club members who are doing these things. Then I went, we went to bed together with them, they slept at my place, willingly, and in the morning I waited a response from the leadership that I contacted but Mr Samdo(?) he was a little bit busy he was going to come very late the following day, Masesula couldn't have come because he was a bank person, Stewart Ngwenya, one of the Civic members and the UDF members came, he sat down and spoke with these two young men. They promised that they are going to stop all these things that they were doing, harassing people, beating people, doing all those funny things and they were going to go back to school. We discovered later that one of the boys was called to Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house, then that's where we realised that there was going to be a problem. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Now you had received a report of this planned attack upon your son and Lerothodi Ikaneng, what did you do, what steps did you take to warn your son? MS CHILI I asked them in fact, all of them, I said look this is going to be dangerous, if the house is going to be -if they want to kill Sibusiso, neither of the other boys were safe, you had better hide yourselves and that's exactly what they started doing. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI The following morning we noticed when we went outside that there are people with long stuff disguised, some with long coats with bags you know standing strategically that in such a way that when they come from the - Lerothodi comes maybe from his place they are in a position to see him and then they are in a position to see Sibusiso whether he comes in or out of the house. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now can you tell us what happened on the 13th of February? MS CHILI On the 13th of February a young woman came to my place, I think it was Phumzile who came screaming, Mama Spontch, Mama Spontch the Football Club members have caught up with Sibusiso, they are going to kill him. I said Mpompo please get his twin brother, he is at the Uncle Tom's hall with the other youth and then Pompo left. And then later there was this noise outside, you could feel that they were fighting outside and they were actually trying to pull, because I understand the other two men ran away and then they were left with one. MR UNTERHALTER Is that Madondo? MS CHILI Yes. They were trying to pull him, trying to bring him to my place but he was fighting and then later, I don't know what happened, but later Madondo was lying on the floor. MR UNTERHALTER Yes, and he was killed? MS CHILI Yes. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Now what happened after the killing of Maxwell Madondo? MS CHILI After the killing of Maxwell Madondo I went to London, I had attended an anti-apartheid movement representing the Civics, it was a conference. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. And what happened on your return? MS CHILI On my return I was informed by one well-known person to me, that is Mzwaki Mbuli that Dudu be careful, there was this car, he gave me the registration numbers, that this car was standing in front of your house, you could see these people were sort of talking about your house and he became suspicious. He gave me those registration numbers and said this is the car, it was a Volkswagen, greyish if I am not mistaken, and then he said to me I followed that car, that car went back to Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house in Diepkloof. MR UNTERHALTER Now on your return from the United Kingdom were you arrested? MS CHILI Yes we, I slept because I came late and then we slept, I was with Barbara at home. In the early hours of the morning the police came, it was about five o'clock or even earlier. Then they said they are taking me for questioning. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI They assured Barbara, Barbara she will be back it's just for questioning. When I went, when we arrived in Protea it was Van Zyl and Dempsey who came for me. The first question they asked me who did I see of the ANC in London. Then I said I didn't see anybody of the ANC in London, I had attended an anti-apartheid movement conference and which I had represented the Civics, Soweto Civics. They left me in Protea and disappeared. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI Later I understood that they went to my house to search my house. I don't know what they took from my house, and then when they came back they told me I was implicated in the Madondo killing, I took part in the Madondo killing. MR UNTERHALTER Now while you were in custody was there an attack on your house? MS CHILI It was the same night when I was picked up by the police because in the morning they came to the cell in Kliptown where I was kept. From Protea I was taken to Kliptown. They said let's go home. I jumped because I was happy to be released from that stinking jail you know. As we were driving innocently I could see the placards along the road, a 13 year old girl died in a bomb, a house bomb, things like that, it never dawned on me that it had happened at my house. I got a shock when we approached the house, the house was in a terrible state, and then I really panicked because I didn't know how many people were in the house, how many were killed. But as we came, we approached, my sister-in-laws were there, they told me that only one child died in the house and it was Finky Msomi. MR UNTERHALTER And who is she? MS CHILI She was my niece. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Were the charges withdrawn against you in respect of the Madondo killing? MS CHILI Yes it was. MR UNTERHALTER Did you report to anybody the attack that had been made on your house? MS CHILI Yes I, no, I was not at home, I was detained, so the message spread, the people knew, heard about it around, even Goma Sisulu were informed but I don't know by whom. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Did you have a discussion with Reverend Chikane about this matter? MS CHILI Yes, Reverend Chikane was aware about the burning of my house. I remember one day we were in a meeting somewhere in Wits, we the Civic members, he did ask Stewart Ngwenya and Annette Ramagopa, comrades when are you building the comrades house? They said we are busy working on it because there were no funds yet. They were still negotiating the funds. MR UNTERHALTER Do you know anything of the trial of Charles Zwane and evidence at that trial concerning the burning of your house? MS CHILI Yes Charles Zwane was one of the people because I understood that Sonwabo, who was also an MK person who operated from Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house that he was also the person who attacked my house. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Did you speak to the Attorney General about this issue? MS CHILI The burning of my house? MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI The Attorney General called me afterwards, after I had testified in Finky's case. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS CHILI Because he wanted to find out was it really that I said a message arrived at my place before and that there was this death sentence imposed on my son and he wanted to find out am I positive about those allegations. I said yes because the person came to my house and reported and immediately after that there were people surrounding my house ready to attack. MR UNTERHALTER You say there was a report that there were people going to attack your house, what was that report? MS CHILI It was a report that was brought in by Todo who said that we must warn Sibusiso to be careful because a decision has already been taken that they should be killed. MR UNTERHALTER Has your house been repaired since ...(intervention) MS CHILI It was never repaired, I had to save some funds for myself and try to make it bearable. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. Chairperson those are my questions for Dudu Chili, but perhaps I should go through all the witnesses. CHAIRPERSON I would have thought so. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sibusiso Chili can I ask you some questions next if I may. Could you tell us of whether there were efforts made to have you join the Mandela Football Club? Did people come and try and make you join the Mandela Football Club? MR S CHILI Yes. MR UNTERHALTER Who were those people? MR S CHILI It was a Football Club, I did not know the people. MR UNTERHALTER Did you want to join the Club? MR S CHILI No I did not want to join the Club. MR UNTERHALTER Why not? MR S CHILI I couldn't join a club that I did not know its origin. MR UNTERHALTER Did you ask your mother about whether you should join the Club? MR S CHILI Please repeat your question? MR UNTERHALTER Did you ask your mother whether you should join the Club? MR S CHILI No I did not ask her. MR UNTERHALTER Now I want to take you to February of 1989, did your mother tell you that a man called Todo had come to warn you that members of the Football Club wanted to come and kill you? MR S CHILI Yes that is correct. MR UNTERHALTER And what did you do in response to that? MR S CHILI I went to my mother to tell her that they wanted to kill me and I did not know what to do. My mother said see how to escape this and if they kill you this Mandela Football Club I will bury you. MR UNTERHALTER Why did they want to kill you, did you have any idea? MR S CHILI You may ask or direct the question to Winnie she can tell you they are all the Football Club members. MR UNTERHALTER Now could you tell us what happened on the 13th of February 1989? MR S CHILI Yes. I used to work at Mhlongo, I was a driver delivering liquor. My mother called Mhlongo because she had already heard that I was supposed to be killed, or I would be killed. When I got Mhlongo I got that message that my mother called and there is this message. When I got home she told me that and she also further said that if I die she will bury me. I went back to Mhlongo, I don't remember what I had gone there to do, but when I was approaching my house I was coming from the passage I met three boys, I did not know their names, I did not know even themselves but there is one that I knew, it was Killer. Madonda and Katiza did not know them. I just heard them grabbing and I saw them grabbing me, they said you are Spotch and let's go to Mama. I asked as to which mother are you referring to because my mother is at home. And Katiza - and I took a gun from Madondo and gave it to Boli. There was another boy called Boli. I took the gun from Maxwell Madondo and I gave it to Boli. I don't know where he went to and Katiza and Killer fled. I was left with Madondo there. We forward up until we got to my house. I wanted him to explain to my mother as to why and the reasons, and furnish my mother with the reasons why I would be killed and he did not want to do that. He jumped the fence. No that's when we started fighting around the fence, right next to the fence and I grabbed him, and some other boys came and we started assaulting and I hurled a big stone to him and he died with that. I did not intend to kill him. I only wanted him to go and talk to my mother and explain my mother as to why they wanted to kill me. After I pelted the stone at him we removed his body and we put it on the other side of the street and I left the scene. As I was approaching from the passage, coming from the Ikaneng's area I saw a red car, I don't remember if it was a Mercedes but it was red in colour. Winnie was standing there outside with two bodyguards looking at the corpse. From there I turned back, they did not see me. I don't know what eventually happened after that. MR UNTERHALTER Now you were arrested for the murder of Maxwell Madondo and you were tried in a court of law, is that correct? MR S CHILI Yes. I was arrested for the murder of Maxwell Madondo. MR UNTERHALTER You were sentenced to six years imprisonment four of which were suspended, is that correct? MR S CHILI That is correct. MR UNTERHALTER I just want to read you a (...indistinct) record of that case because right at the end of your case, your counsel, who happens to be Mr Kades who is sitting here today, said the following "My Lord I am pleased to inform Your Lordship about the admission...." that was an admission made by the State, "....My Lord, that the State will make is that the deceased, Maxwell Madondo was a member of the Mandela Football Club that a decision was made by Mrs Winnie Mandela and the Football Club to kill accused 1 and accused 6..." "...that the witness My Lord, whose name I shall not now mention, together with Killer and the deceased all were instructed and went to carry out the decision to accused 1 and 6 on that day My Lord". It was the 13th of February 1989. And is it correct that the Judge took that into account in giving you the sentence that he did of the murder of Mr Madondo, is that correct? MR S CHILI That is true. MR UNTERHALTER Do you recall at the trial that there was evidence of a hit list that had been found at Mrs Mandela's house by the police, do you recall that? MR S CHILI Yes I do. MR UNTERHALTER Do you recall whose names were on that list? MR S CHILI My name was there as well as my other friends with whom I was arrested. Sipo's name was there also, I think Lerothodi Ikaneng's name was listed as well. MR UNTERHALTER And was there an Elliot Sisuli, also known as Khumalo on that list? MR S CHILI Sipho Khumalo, yes. MR UNTERHALTER Those are my questions for this witness. If I could then ask just a few questions of Barbara please. CHAIRPERSON Yes please do. MR UNTERHALTER I want to take you straight to the attack on the house in which you were living. Could you tell the Commission what happened on that day please? MS B CHILI During 1989 February - (the speaker's mike is not on) - during February 1989 we were at Dudu's house, myself, Matanda as well as Finky. As we were still sitting there - (the speaker's mike is not on) - I heard the gate opening, I went outside to find out, I stood at the step and saw the gate was opened and I called on to the dog Sizwe, and Sizwe came from the street into the yard and I closed the gate and went back into the house. I spoke to Matanda as well as Finky and told them that they should go to sleep because it was quite late and they had to go to school the following morning. They protested and said they were watching the TV. After a few moments I could hear the gate opening once more and I went out. I called onto the dog Sizwe and the gate was open at the time and I could detect some noise from the dustbin as if there is somebody who had got into the dustbin. I went towards the postbox and I thought the dog had got into the dustbin to seek some food. Then I walked quite a distance and when I turned around I saw a tall man whose face wasn't visible and I saw another one with a gun and he fired. I ran into the house and closed the door after me. We ran into Dudu's bedroom and Finky, the one who passed away, ran into the wardrobe and I stood next to the window together with Matanda and I tried to phone Abigail. I told her that I had been shot at and Abigail said I must just stay put she is still trying to struggle with Mbuso. I phoned my cousin who stays in Orlando East, Harold Chili and told him to phone the Orlando Police because there were people shooting at us. I also phoned my boyfriend from Meadowlands Zone 7 and said Mkhonzo please phone the police to come and assist us because we were being attacked. And at that moment the phone was cut off I believe from outside and I saw a round object that hit me on the thighs and at that time I caught fire and I was on fire when I saw - after having thrown the petrol bomb they threw a 25 litre of petrol and it burst. At that moment I saw Finky coming from the corner and fell right before my feet. I tried to pull hr out into the passage to rescue her and at the time I was in flames. I left Finky all by herself. I went into the kitchen, I went to the sink, I tried to put the flames out using the water from the sink. When I went back I could see the fire, the flames burning the carpet in the dining room and I asked Matanda as to whether she was injured. She just screamed and said we should run outside and I said we can't go outside at this juncture. It was dark now in the house. I pulled Barbara out, we were already suffocating at that stage because there was a very strong smell of petrol. I hit the window thinking that the window would break only to find that it doesn't break and I went back inside. Now the house was very dark engulfed in flames as well as smoke. After quite some time I said Matanda I had been burnt. We were scared to go out because we didn't know where the attackers were and she told me that she heard Matanda's mother swearing, asking her as to why they were killing us and why were they attacking Dudu's house. I told Matanda that the people were there and they opened the door at a later stage. I went into the chicken shed. I don't know where Matanda went. I remained in the chicken shed at that time. I at a later stage jumped the fence into the opposite house where I related the story to Tsili that I had been burnt. We had been attacked, my thighs were burnt. Tsili brought a bottle of fish oil, he took off my dress and poured fish oil over my wounds. Tsili's mother came over and said Barbara I have come to fetch you, the police are here already, and I was scared to go. I didn't know where the attackers were but I ultimately went out. We got to my place and there were a lot of people there. Finky had died already and they were trying to remove her body out of the house. I told them that I had been burnt and I was in tremendous pain. Abigail sent her boy Mtatu to fetch the car so that they could take me to the hospital. MR UNTERHALTER ....as far as Finky is concerned was she shot? MS B CHILI I don't know because I saw her flying from the other side of the wardrobe and fell right next to me. I don't know whether she got shot or what. I was also in a confused state. From there they came with Abigail's car and I told them that I got burned on my thighs and I am in tremendous pain and the ambulance came and they said Barbara get out from this other car into the ambulance, and I left Abigail's car and got into the ambulance and we were ferried to Baragwanath Hospital. MR UNTERHALTER Could I just ask you, before the attack were you aware of the house being under observation? MS B CHILI I knew because there were boys that had disguised and had scarves on and had (...indistinct) on and had sunglasses during the day and even at night we were so scared to death to even going inside and outside the house. MR UNTERHALTER Were you aware of a kombi that was parked outside of the house from which people were looking at your house? MS B CHILI I did not see the kombi, I was in a state of confusion at the time. MR UNTERHALTER Did you hear of a kombi from your aunt that had been outside the house? MS B CHILI Which aunt are you referring to? MR UNTERHALTER The mother of Finkie Msomi. MS B CHILI I heard but I did not see it. MR UNTERHALTER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Piers. MR PIGOU Thank you Chair. This is a question for Dudu Chili. We have heard in the in camera hearing with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that she has distanced herself from the activities of the youths that were staying at her house. She has basically put forward the proposition that they respected her privacy and she respected theirs therefore she didn't know what they were up to and therefore would have no responsibility. What is your reaction to that? MS D CHILI That Sibusiso was supposed to be killed, according to the informant that brought the decision he said it came from Winnie's office or house where a group of the Football Club were gathered and it was not for the first time I should point out to you, but it was the second time that Sibusiso, the Football Club wanted to kill Sibusiso, so I connected this incident and that incident that it could be possible merely they are after him after all. MR PIGOU In your statement and I believe you have been saying it here again today you confronted Mrs Mandela with this issue about the boys wanting to - the Football Club people wanting to recruit or whatever the right word may be, your son or sons, and you go in your statement to say that you made attempts through your own family connections to get to family connections of Mrs Mandela. Did that actually happen and what was the result of your efforts to resolve this issue? MS D CHILI It did happen and it sort of lulled until it happened for the second time when Madondo was killed. MR PIGOU Did you ever raise these specific problems with regards to your sons with Mrs Albertina Sisulu? MS D CHILI I worked closely with Mrs Sisulu so in most cases I reported everything to her. MR PIGOU And are you aware whether Mrs Sisulu made any efforts to contact as a leader in the community, to contact and communicate and perhaps resolve the problems with Mrs Mandela? MS D CHILI Not that I remember offhand. MR PIGOU Staying on Mrs Sisulu for the moment you worked closely with her, did you at any time get requests from Mrs Sisulu to assist her with problems which may have emanated from around the Football Club with youths coming from the Football Club? MS D CHILI Yes I will quote one instance, it was a very large group, about eight of them who they told Mrs Sisulu that they have run away from Mrs Mandela's house and they wanted help from her. Mrs Sisulu was banned then, she phoned me, it was very late at night, that please Dudu you know I can't move because of my restrictions, can you come and help me with these children so that they can get hiding places until the UDF decides what to do with them. MR PIGOU Following the incident at your house and then subsequently with the unbanning of the ANC did you make any attempts to resolve the differences between your family and Mrs Mandela? MS D CHILI No I never did because after the bombing of my house I was displaced and in hiding for a long time and I never got the chance because when the ANC was unbanned I did go to - it was still a (...indistinct) centre, I approached Mr Sisulu and Mr Mlangini and then they said they can't interfere particularly that this incident involves Mr Mandela's wife, rather they will arrange an appointment for me to speak myself with Mr Mandela. Mr Sisulu took me to Jessie Duarte, the then personal assistant of Mr Mandela then. She did make an appointment for me but that appointment failed because that date collided when Mr Mandela came back from the long tour that he took after his release. It collided with the report-back to the constituency and Jessie promised that another appointment was going to be set for me for which I am still waiting. MR PIGOU We know that Mr Charles Zwane was convicted in connection with the attack on your house and that Mr Charles Zwane was associated with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's home and had also been convicted previously in the Oupa Sehere matter, has Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ever made any approaches to you to resolve these problems, to reconcile with your family? MS D CHILI She has never approached me for any reconciliation. The two people who came to me it was Peter Mokaba and Rapo who were then in the Youth. Just before the release of Mr Mandela they came to my flat where I was staying then, that they were worried that our dispute, the dispute between me and Mrs Mandela is going to be problematic when Mr Mandela comes out, and it is their wish to see it resolved. I said to them I have no problem with that because I wanted it to be resolved too, but I said to them look it won't just be you coming to me because according to my custom a child is a family child, Finkie died in the house and I cannot claim her to be my child alone and take a decision alone, Finkie's father and mother ought to be there. My family ought to be there and Mrs Mandela's family ought to be there so that we resolve this thing and be done with it. They left, they never came back. MR PIGOU One last question to you Dudu Chili. Do you hold Mrs Madikizela-Mandela directly responsible for the problems which your family have had or do you rather see that she had no control over the people that were living in her house and that therefore she is not directly responsible for what has happened to your family? MS D CHILI I was very hurt that this thing happened to me especially that it happened with the Football Club which was connected to Mrs Mandela. I never thought a thing like that can happen, and I always thought that Mrs Mandela was a strong powerful woman and if she had the responsibility of the Football Club she could have managed to control them not to do the things that they did to the community. MR PIGOU Thank you. Just a couple of questions for Sibusiso Chili. Sibusiso in your statement to the Truth Commission you stated that when the Football Club was established most of your comrades joined the Club and you did not join. Now we have been talking in the last week or so about a period of 1987, 1988 and now the beginning of 1989 when this incident happened with Maxwell Madondo. During the course of those two years we have heard from your mother that there were attempts to get you to join the Football Club, were you able to walk around freely, as much as one could in those times in Soweto, or was there a constant fear in the back of your mind that something may happen to you as a result of your failure or refusal to join the Football Club? MR S CHILI I had no fear. There were some people who had fear but the situation that prevailed at the time was a scary one. MR PIGOU Did you make any attempts, because you talk about most of your comrades joining the Club, clearly these were people that you knew, did you make attempts to find out from those people what really was the motive behind your insecurity or the position that you were put in to be made to feel insecure, did you try and find out why certain people in the Club were targeting you? MR S CHILI I did not make any attempts from the Football Club members, even from other people who joined later, I did not ask anything. MR PIGOU Mr Chili did you have friends around you who possibly were also involved in disciplining other people in terms of, we've heard that your mother was a focal point of attention in that part of the community, was there any disciplinary action taken by yourself of unruly elements in the community? MR S CHILI No. MR PIGOU No further questions. DR BORAINE Thank you. Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. May I direct my questions to Mrs Chili. In, to use your phrase, face to face with Mrs Mandela has there been any unfriendly communication, verbal communication between the two of you? MS D CHILI No. MR SEMENYA My instructions are that since you have always related with one another, at least on a one-to-one in a very cordial way, is that right? And in fact she recalls an event when she invited you to go and deliver a speech, I think, at Wits for the students, do you recall that? MS D CHILI Yes I do. MR SEMENYA You do. Now Ma'am the one aspect to which you make reference relates to the son, to Nombulelo Makobo is that right? MS D CHILI Yes. MR SEMENYA And I think the son to her is a Mr Mbuyisa, is that right? MS D CHILI Mtando, we call him Mtando. MR SEMENYA I beg your pardon. MS D CHILI Mtando. DR BORAINE Could I just interrupt you for a moment, I wonder if the witness would either move that or speak up a little bit. Thank you very much. MR SEMENYA Firstly let us locate the timeframe, Mbuyiso though is the gentleman who is carrying Hector Petersen in the famous photo, is that right? MS D CHILI I am talking about his younger brother, Mtando. MR SEMENYA My instructions are this Mtando never stayed at Mrs Mandela's house, do you have facts that you personally know that suggest that he in fact stayed there? MS D CHILI Yes that's why the mother came to demand why her son was not returning home whilst staying at Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela house. MR SEMENYA Let me put it differently, have you on occasion seen that young man sleeping at Mrs Mandela's house? MS D CHILI I was not sleeping there so I couldn't have seen him sleeping there. MR SEMENYA No I respect that you would not have been sleeping there, I am trying to establish whether out of own personal knowledge... MS D CHILI He did join the Football Club, that's why the mother came to me and said Dudu since Mtando has joined the Football Club he is no more returning home. Then that is when I said look I am not connected to the Football Club, you rather go and talk to Mrs Mandela. MR SEMENYA I take it Ma'am you cannot accept the factual correctness that the boy did sleep there, is that correct? MS D CHILI I tell you the mother came and asked me that since my son is not sleeping at home because he has joined the Football Club, then I referred her to Mrs Mandela. She came with this response that Mrs Mandela said I am feeding them. So that is my answer. MR SEMENYA Am I correct that you cannot vouch for the factual correctness of the information related to you by the mother? MS D CHILI Well she was the mother, she hinted to me that the son is no more sleeping at home because he has joined the Football Club, that is the reason why I referred him to Mrs Winnie Mandela. MR SEMENYA Put simply you just trusted her word, you can't vouch that it was correct, am I right? MS D CHILI She came back with the response after she said she went to Mrs Mandela's place. MR SEMENYA We will talk about the response later, let me just try and address each area with you in turn. It is only because you trusted her word that you gave the advice but you did not know that her communication to you was factually correct, is that right? MS D CHILI I didn't know if it was correct but I accepted it because I referred her to Mrs Mandela. MR SEMENYA And in fact it cannot assist me to try and exchange with you the incorrectness of that information because you have no first-hand knowledge of that information, am I right? MS D CHILI I think the mother wouldn't be a liar to come back and say I have been to Mrs Winnie Mandela's house and this is what she says. She did not deny that her child did not sleep there, but she just said if you are not feeding your children I am feeding them. She did not deny, according to the mother. MR SEMENYA Ma'am you don't help me if I tell you that Mrs Mandela denies that and you would say she is lying? MS D CHILI I beg your pardon? MR SEMENYA If I put it to you that Mrs Mandela denies the lady coming to her your response would be what? MS D CHILI My response will be that she came back and told me that response and then I believed her then. MR SEMENYA You don't believe Mrs Mandela if she asserted that the lady didn't come. MR UNTERHALTER With respect Mr Chairman might I intervene. It's not for my learned friend Mr Semenya to ask whether this witness believes that Mrs Mandela is lying. This witness can only say what she knew and was told. It's not a proper question to put. DR BORAINE I think that is fair, would it not be helpful, and I really don't want to interfere with your cross-examination, but I think the point you are making is that the witness did not see the particular person sleeping there. Perhaps if you just put that and she could say yes you are right I didn't see it, I only accepted somebody else's word, otherwise it may take us a very long time. MR SEMENYA Chairperson I take the advice but it is the witness who is being invited to say she believed the other person X,Y,Z. Now I don't know what is the basis of her belief in one instance and non belief in the other, but I won't pursue the point. DR BORAINE Thank you. MR SEMENYA Again you say that there was a decision that your boy must be killed, you were not there when this decision was taken, is that right? MS D CHILI Yes I wasn't there. MR SEMENYA You cannot speak for the correctness of that information or can you? MS D CHILI What made me believe that is because the following morning we saw figures surrounding my house, it confirmed that statement. MR SEMENYA Now it's only based on your belief, right? I see you nod your head, do you mean yes? MS D CHILI I beg your pardon? MR SEMENYA I see you are nodding your head, did you mean yes by that? MS D CHILI I believed it because the following morning it was confirmed by the people surrounding my house, that's why I believed it. I may not have believed it if it did not happen that way. MR SEMENYA Even when you tell us about the event where you say Madondo was caught and finally killed, this is not information that you personally saw, is that right? MS D CHILI I was there around the house when this thing happened. I did not witness the killing because I ran into the house because I was scared, because I did not know who was going to fall, whether my son or the assailant. MR SEMENYA Yes but you didn't witness it, right? MS D CHILI I didn't. MR SEMENYA In fact coming to the time when your house was burnt I understand you were not at home, is that right? MS D CHILI No I was not at home. MR SEMENYA Can I read to you what appears here to be an answer by Mrs Qoliswa Falati as an explanation for why your house was burnt. Chairperson I have a, it must be a radio interview transcript. I am unable to direct actual attention about the page and number but it appears and reads as follows "03.19.39.09. It was Chili's home which was burned. It was burned because Chili was working with Mrs Albertina Sisulu to help the boys run away from Winnie's home". What is your - this is an explanation that is offered by Falati why your house was burned, what is your reaction Ma'am? MS D CHILI It could be one of the reasons because I did help some of the boys who had gone to Mrs Sisulu's house to get safe places. It could be one of the reasons. MR SEMENYA Can I ask Miss Chili, Barbara. I take it Ma'am you did not identify any of the assailants the day the house was burnt? MS B CHILI Please repeat your question. MR SEMENYA You did not have an opportunity to identify the assailants the day the house was burned? MS B CHILI No it was at night I did not see them. MR SEMENYA Can I then put the question to Sibusiso. I heard you say that after Maxwell was killed you saw a red car out of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stood outside with two bodyguards. MR S CHILI Yes I saw a red car. MR SEMENYA Out of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stood outside with two bodyguards. MR S CHILI Yes I saw a red car. MR SEMENYA Out of which came Mrs Madikizela-Mandela with two bodyguards. MR S CHILI Yes that's correct. MR SEMENYA Can I put it to you Sir that your information cannot be correct, at this time, at this time the Audi was long involved in an accident and the family was using a kombi, a microbus. MR S CHILI I am telling you that I saw a red car, whether there was an accident before that's none of my business but I saw a red car. MR SEMENYA ....advantage of your knowledge of the facts. Is it correct that the family was using a kombi, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's family? MR S CHILI When? MR SEMENYA Around the times when Mr Madondo was ...(intervention) MR S CHILI It was a red car. MR SEMENYA I am not having a quibble with you whether the car was red or not Sir, I am asking you a simple question, is it correct that around the time when Mr Madondo is killed Mrs Mandela's family was using a microbus? MR S CHILI No that's a blatant lie. MR SEMENYA We are told that Mr Kades, in a Supreme Court gave information that the activities were, the activities of the Football Club were on the instruction of Mrs Mandela, do you know who gave this instructions to Mr Kades? MR S CHILI Who is Kades? MR SEMENYA It's the gentleman on the other side of the table. MR S CHILI Please repeat your question. MR SEMENYA Would you know who would have given Mr Kades the instructions that the members of the Football team were instructed by Mrs Mandela? MR S CHILI That's what I will say. MR SEMENYA Let me repeat the question. Do you know who would have given him that instruction? MR S CHILI I hear that it's Winnie. MR SEMENYA The last time, are you able to tell us who would have given that instruction to Mr Kades? MR S CHILI Which instructions are you referring to? MR SEMENYA I have no further questions. DR BORAINE Thank you. Before I ask the legal representatives to reply or rather to put their questions, I just want to point out the time and the heat of the day and if you could confine yourselves to five minutes I'd be most grateful. Please try. MR KADES Will I be permitted to make a statement Mr Chairman. DR BORAINE Of course go ahead. MR KADES I appeared at that trial and I defended the accused, I had in my possession a statement which I had taken from Katiza Cebekhulu stating precisely what I had read into the record. The position was that we had reached the last day of the trial and I had intended to call Katiza Cebekhulu but he was not available at court and I then said to the State prosecutor that this would necessitate a postponement because I considered this to be rather essential evidence insofar as the defence was concerned. He then asked me what it was that the witness would say. I told that - I mentioned to him that that was what the witness would say, he said that he was aware of that information and that the State would therefore make that admission, and the State therefore made that admission and it was no longer necessary to call Katiza Cebekhulu, and the matter went on to the records. After that had occurred, as I recall, it's been some years of course, Katiza Cebekhulu arrived at court but it was not necessary to call him because the admission had already been made. DR BORAINE Thank you. Any other questions. Yes please go ahead. MS HASSEN Haisena Hassen, I represent Charles Zwane, also known as Bobo. I'd like to place questions to all the members there, I will keep it very brief. I would like to start with Sibusiso please. Sibusiso I am led to believe that you and Bobo, also known as Charles Zwane came from the same neighbourhood and that you were friendly with him and that up to this day you are still friendly with him, is that true? MR S CHILI Bobo was never my friend, I just knew him, we greeted each other as usual. MS HASSEN Do you know if he was a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MR S CHILI Yes I know that. MS HASSEN Did you ever see Bobo surveying your house before the bomb attack? MR S CHILI I don't remember. MS HASSEN To Mrs Dudu Chili, can I ask you the same question and Mrs Barbara Chili as well, you can answer in turn. Did you ever see Bobo surveying your house before the attack, surveying the house? Standing around your house, you said that carried on for a week in your evidence to this Commission. MS D CHILI Can you repeat your question. MS HASSEN Sure. To put it another way, you said that members of the Mandela United Football Club were standing around your house having - trying to see whether Sibusiso was there, who was there, whatever they were doing around there, did you ever see Charles Zwane doing the same thing? MS D CHILI It was difficult to see because they were hiding their faces, it was really difficult because some were having scarves hanging along their faces and when they see us coming out they would turn and give us their backs. So it was very difficult to identify them. MS HASSEN Alright. I won't elicit your comment on this Barbara. What I just need to ask from you is whether you said in your statement or in your evidence now to the Commission that you saw a tall man with a balaclava on and a long coat during the attack, on the night of the attack, in other words another man with a gun, was he identifiable to you in any way as Charles Zwane also known as Bobo? MS B CHILI No I did not see him because he was hiding. He hid his face. I did not see him and his face was covered and it was at night. MS HASSEN Just two more questions. Sibusiso did Bobo ever speak to you about your conflict with the Mandela United Football Club before the incident of the burning of your house? MR S CHILI Yes I met Bobo but I was not at home. MS HASSEN Alright, so you did know Bobo then? MR S CHILI Yes I knew him. MS HASSEN Alright. To Mrs Chili and to the rest of the Chilis, Bobo gave evidence at this Commission that despite his convictions he denied that he was responsible for the bombing of your home and inter alia for the murder of Finkie Msomi. Do you people want to comment on this? MS D CHILI We don't want to comment on it. MS HASSEN Thank you. No further questions. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter before I ask you to come back again I think I will give the panel an opportunity to ask any questions and I will start with Ms Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA Dudu I just have two questions. One, Todo of Mzimhlope what was his proper name? MS D CHILI I knew him by the name Todo, but I have just gathered that his other name is Oupa if I am not mistaken. MS SOOKA So your Todo is also the Todo that people are talking about. MS D CHILI Todo, yes. MS SOOKA Also in cross-examination Mr Semenya implied that you did have a long-standing relationship with Mrs Mandela, after all of this had happened did you ever approach Mrs Mandela directly to discuss this matter with her? MS D CHILI As I have said that the first instant when I discovered that they were wanting to kill Sibusiso I did go to Mrs Mandela to approach her about it. MS SOOKA No I am actually asking if, once the house had been burnt and Finkie had been killed was there any approach made by the Chili family to Mrs Mandela? MS D CHILI The what family? MS SOOKA Your family. MS D CHILI I was the one who was mourning Finkie's death here. Finkie was killed and I had expected that maybe Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela would say maybe it was a mistake, but it never happened. MS SOOKA Did you approach the Crisis Committee or any other community leader because from what I understand you yourself were also a member of Fetro at the time, was there any approach made by the organisation to try and do some kind of - to assess what could be done after this attack? MS D CHILI After the bombing of the house I was displeased for a long time until the unbanning of the organisation, that's when I had a hope that maybe the ANC may be in a position to resolve this problem, but nothing happened. MS SOOKA Thank you. DR BORAINE Thank you. Mrs Mkhize. MS MKHIZE Thank you Chairperson. My first question is directed to Mr Sibusiso Chili. Sibusiso how reliable were your informants that a verdict has been pronounced that he should be killed? MR S CHILI The person who came to tell me was Dodo. He did not even come to me, he told my mother, I only heard from my mother. MS MKHIZE You think there were some other young men who had not joined the Football Club and you were not the only one who did not join the Football Club, why were they after you specifically? MR S CHILI I was suggesting that they should ask the one who gave the orders for me to be killed. There is nothing I can answer thereof. MS MKHIZE Dudu do you think when looking back now maybe Stratcom was involved because it's like you were a leader, you were within the same organisation as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and something happened which you both cannot explain, and it led to a point where there were deaths on the part of the Football Club and also on the part of your family, I mean is it possible that there was a Stratcom agent fuelling something? MS D CHILI The word Stratcom it's a new word to me. I have not been aware of any Stratcom, it's just a new word to me so I wouldn't say it could have been responsible. MS MKHIZE At that time, well okay maybe you didn't, when you look back now even the security agents, if you were both activists in the area and also you had been detained is it possible that an agent interfered especially if you both cannot explain what was the cause of this animosity which developed? MS D CHILI If there was no Football Club I would have thought that way. But now there was a Football Club which Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela was responsible over it, so I don't think I would have thought otherwise. DR BORAINE Dr Randera. DR RANDERA Dudu and Sibusiso I just want you both to comment on this okay. Reading both your statements there is almost an impression created that there's a natural progression and let me explain that. The Football Club starts in 1986, you Dudu say, and your son say there is some unhappiness, in fact threats are made within weeks of the Football Club starting, okay. Then in your own words you say there is a lull, nothing happens and Sibusiso says he is able to walk around Soweto freely, he is able to walk around Orlando freely, and we know, I mean we've heard over the last eight or nine days again that all these other things are happening. Now we suddenly go to 1989 and the threats or you hear again that your son's life is at stake, now I want to actually try and separate, if I can, what happened in '86 from '89 because to me it doesn't seem to make sense. And is it possible that something happened between Sibusiso and some of the young people because again the impression that's being created is there is this Club that's formed in 1986 and there's a continuity to 1989, but is it possible that something happened between Sibusiso and some of the young people who lived, or may happen to have lived in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's yard that initiated this thing again in February of 1989? MD D CHILI Commissioner when I went to approach Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about why the Football Club was wanting to kill Sibusiso and the response that I have already said here, I approached my cousin who has been a long-standing friend to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I was still at school when they were friends, and they are still friends even today, and incidentally it happened that she married, she got married to a man who his daughter got married to Magatu, Mr Mandela's son. I went to Nono my cousin and I said Nono I don't know what is happening but I know you are good friends, you are friends with Mrs Mandela, would you intervene for Sibusiso's sake, and I had thought when this thing lulled I thought maybe Nono did go and approach her. That was my belief. I never followed it up but when it stopped I said maybe Nono did approach her. DR RANDERA Dudu sorry again, we are talking about almost a two year period between the - maybe I am being quite liberal in terms of two years between the beginning and the ending, that's what I am trying to understand. MS D CHILI I stated here I think the thing that triggered it again it was when Lerothodi pointed two boys who helped Richardson when he was cutting Lerothodi, injuring Lerothodi, that these two boys were pointed to Sibusiso by Lerothodi saying these are the two young men who helped Richardson when they were attacking me. When Sibusiso said Lerothodi let's not fight them, let's take them to Mama so that they can talk to them, and later it was said that one of the boys was summonsed, I don't know whether Mrs Mandela was aware or it was just the Football Club alone but he was summonsed to Mrs Mandela's house and after that, that's when it came that they have become problematic, they have got to be killed. DR BORAINE Thank you. Dr Mgojo. DR MGOJO Thank you. I had decided not to say anything but I want to make a follow-up. The question was asked whether you did go to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to talk about what was happening, especially after the burning of your house and you said you didn't, am I correct? MS D CHILI Yes I didn't, yes. DR MGOJO And you said that you expected her to come to you, why would she come to you? MS D CHILI Commissioner, if Mrs Mandela is a leader and we are working in the same camp if it was me who had done something bad to her I am sure I would have come back to my senses and said look I have wronged Mrs Mandela, let me bow down and say Mrs Mandela I am sorry because I have wronged you. I expected that she would come and say Dudu, let's bury the hatchet, it was a mistake that happened, but it never happened. DR MGOJO I am just checking that had she considered that she had done something wrong to you? MS D CHILI You mean to say was she aware? DR MGOJO No I am just saying, has she considered that she had done something wrong to you which would force her to come to you and say that Dudu I am sorry I have done this thing? MS D CHILI I don't know. DR MGOJO You don't know. MS D CHILI Yes. DR MGOJO Let's say she had come to you, I think firstly there was a question which was directed to you so that for the sake of reconciliation you would find it very hard because there are so many people involved, you say that the child died in the fire and it involved another family, what would you have done if she did come to you? MS D CHILI I didn't say it was going to be hard, I said let it happen, but it never happened. DR MGOJO Was it going to be easy for you to make reconciliation if she did come to you? MS D CHILI Yes if she has come the way I said she could come and we sat down I would. DR BORAINE Mr Unterhalter. MR UNTERHALTER Three short questions Dudu. When you went to see Mrs Mandela about the pressure which was being put on Sibusiso to join the Club did she apologise then that any pressure was being on him at all? Did she say I will take steps to see that there is no coercion being placed on your son? MS D CHILI No, the answer was that if he is not in the Football Club obviously the other youth members would suspect him to be a sell-out. That was the answer. MR UNTERHALTER Then secondly, at these hearings did you encounter Charles Zwane, did he speak to you? MS D CHILI He did speak to me. MR UNTERHALTER And what did he say to you? MS D CHILI In fact he was grateful that I came and spoke to him, that he has suffered for so many years with this thing inside him. MR UNTERHALTER Yes. MS D CHILI And for me talking to him it's such a relief within him. MR UNTERHALTER Did he admit to any responsibility for the burning of your house and did he apologise for it? MS D CHILI No not exactly because he said there's a young man who identified him on a parade that he was party to the bombing of my house and that he denies he did it. MR UNTERHALTER I see. Can I ask you then lastly, after your house was burnt down did you have to live in safe houses for a period of time? MS D CHILI Yes for a long time I was moved from place to place. MR UNTERHALTER Yes who was threatening you that you had to live in safe houses? MS D CHILI There was this fear that they made at the Football Club or they will still hit at us. So we were moved from place to place for safety. MR UNTERHALTER Chairperson there are just two final matters. The first is that Dudu Chili would like to make a statement of gratitude to Todo but before she does so we have two statements, one from Elliot Khumalo and the other from Jacob Maupai who we believe is Todo, we have made them available yesterday to either Hanif or Piers, we would like those statements either to be handed up or used for the purposes of determining these facts and we would just refer to them and perhaps in due course they could be made use of by the Commission. But then we would like an opportunity for Dudu to make a statement on Todo. DR BORAINE Just before I give her an opportunity, the statements that are now being handed out has Mr Semenya had sight ...(intervention) MR UNTERHALTER I don't believe that he has. DR BORAINE Then I don't think we can really, at this late stage, well we can certainly accept them and I hope that copies will be made available immediately, but I don't think we should read that into the record unless we first confirm. MR UNTERHALTER No I am entirely happy just to refer to them and that they are available to the Commission. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Mrs Chili you wanted to make a short statement. MS D CHILI I just wanted to thank Todo for coming to alert us about the alleged killing of Sibusiso because I have always lived with that admiration for him that he had the guts, no matter how dangerous it was for him, to come and notify us that Sibusiso was about to be killed. And Sibusiso is alive today because of Todo because otherwise they would have been caught unaware by the people who wanted to kill them, that's why I want to say thank you very much Todo. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. I am very glad you have taken the opportunity to do that. I assume Mr Unterhalter you are complete? MR UNTERHALTER I have Chairperson. DR BORAINE Can I just then before I ask you to stand down, just make a brief comment to the effect that you and your family have suffered a great deal, like so many other people suffered during those difficult years. Whoever was responsible for that, whether it be the burning of the house, the killing, the attempted killing the suffering is real, no one can dispute that, that you have suffered a great deal, and we are grateful that you have had the courage to come here today and to share that with us. Can I also express the hope that if it was not possible then to find some reconciliation that perhaps as a direct result of this hearing, of coming together, that between yourself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and I would put the comment to both of you, that there may be some opportunity outside this forum to find each other, I hope that will happen and I hope there will be an opportunity to do that, because if only that happens, if only that happens then seven days of hearing would have been worthwhile. Thank you very much indeed. You may stand down. Hanif. MR VALLY With Mr Semenya's permission I will just read paragraph 1 and then from 11 onwards if you are happier rather than reading everything. DR BORAINE Proceed please. MR VALLY Thank you. "My name is Vusi Madida. I was born in Mozambique and I am presently living in Johannesburg". I go on to paragraph 11 - "In November/December 1992, after there was a lot of publicity around weapon smuggling from Mozambique to South Africa I decided to go to the police and give the information I had about Alex Mamba and his involvement in weapon smuggling from Mozambique. I went to the police station in West Street in Durban, I met with a policeman in civilian clothes. After 15 minutes I was fetched by a police car, I was taken to C R Swart police station in Durban. We had a discussion and he told me to write down my story and to come back after a couple of days. He also told me he had been a Koevoet member. Furthermore he gave me his telephone number. I cannot remember the name of this police officer but I gave the name in a statement to representatives from the organisation, Lawyers for Human Rights in 1993. I went home and wrote down my story. I contacted the police officer the next day. I met him the same evening. He took me to the beach front in Durban and I gave him the statement. He was not satisfied and said he wanted more information about ANC members, ANC training, ANC offices etc. He also showed me photographs of ANC members. I identified some people from photos that he showed me. He gave me R300 in cash and also asked me to go to KwaMashu township, J Section to see if I recognised any MK soldiers. I was told to inform him if I identified any MK members. I met a girl that I knew from my time in exile, she showed me around and I met a number of MK soldiers that I could point out for the police. After I delivered some information I was asked to leave Durban and to go to Johannesburg. They wanted me to work for the police in Johannesburg. I was told to contact the police in Durban as soon as I arrived to get further instruction. When I came back to Johannesburg I went to the Madida's house where I had stayed before. I contacted the police in Durban and I was asked to go to Shell House and try to identify some of the people there. I phoned the police in Durban and told them that I had identified some people then they told me they wanted to meet at the Carlton Centre, this was in December 1992. I was later introduced to two people, probably from Johannesburg CID. I was told to contact them again. In mid-January 1993 I was told by the policeman from Johannesburg that I should go to KwaThema Social Welfare to get help. Everything was arranged, I went there and they arranged a house for me to stay in. Later I was contacted and taken to Springs police station. At the Springs police station I met with police officer Mr Bowen. He instructed me to cooperate with some other people that would contact me at a later stage. Furthermore he told me to tell these people that I had been involved in violent operations with other black people. According to the instructions I should tell these people that we had been given instructions by Mrs Winnie Mandela and that she also on some of the occasions had participated in the operations. The operations were about killings at train stations and in townships. I was taken to certain places by the police and showed the scenes of previous incidents. At these places I was given detailed instructions about which stories I should tell the people who would contact me at a later stage. I was also told to implicate ANC members that I knew in these operations. I was furthermore instructed to mention Alex Mamba as the weapon supplier and that we also, on a few occasions, got weapons from Mrs Winnie Mandela. I remember that I was instructed to mention that I was involved in the Thokoza massacre, Mzimhlope train station massacre...." it says "Kalweni massacre" here, I see it's (...indistinct) ".... all those incidents took place in 1991/1992. I was given these instructions at the Springs Police station, I was given R400 the same day, this was in the beginning of February 1993. On the 12th of February 1993 I was called to the Social Welfare Department, I met with people who I later understood were from Lawyers for Human Rights, they told me they wanted to speak with me about my role as an informer, they took me to their offices, the office on Von Weilig Street in Johannesburg, there was also a man from ANC Intelligence Service who came to see me. I was interviewed for a couple of months by different people from the LHR, they didn't believe me so I finally confessed that it was a set-up. Later I was sent to the Goldstone Commission, I stayed for two months under the witness protection, however, I was interviewed by members of the Security Branch head office and I didn't trust them so I decided not to cooperate. I left the Goldstone Commission in July 1993. Later when I applied for an extension of my passport I was arrested and taken to John Vorster police station. I was interrogated and forced to give them information as to where to find weapons. I showed them a place in Dube in Soweto where they found six AK-47's and one Makarov pistol. This was in block 8B. After this I was deported to Mozambique. This was on 16th of October 1993. I do not remember the names of all the people from the police that I met but I think I gave the names to the Goldstone Commission. There should be documentation available from my testimony before the Goldstone Commission. Vusi Madida". DR BORAINE Thank you very much. I hope I won't be regarded as flippant if I hope and say that I hope that he's back in Mozambique. There are two announcements I want to make before we adjourn. Firstly we will have a fairly heavy programme tomorrow. We will try to start with the police who are, the one policeman who was ill and he is going to be here tomorrow, straight after that was early as possible in the day, Jerry Richardson and then obviously Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. We are hoping very much indeed that we can finish tomorrow night, we will not rush it unduly. If there is more time needed we will have to meet on the Thursday. The second announcement is an announcement which the Archbishop will now read which has to do with the announcement by the Minister of Justice concerning the recommendations of the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry concerning very serious allegations against Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza. Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission warmly welcomes the findings and recommendations of the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry. Whilst Judge Goldstone's finding that the allegations are false was wholly expected we are nevertheless thrilled that Mr Ntsebeza's name has been cleared completely and finally by an independent Commission of Inquiry. Having acknowledged when we called for the Commission to be appointed that we should have referred allegations implicating Commissioner Dumisa Ntsebeza in the Heidelberg Tavern attack to outside investigators we accept without hesitation Judge Goldstone's finding that we erred in not having the allegations independently investigated immediately upon learning of them. The failure of the police to follow up and investigate properly the allegations against Mr Ntsebeza is shocking, as were the actions of senior police officers in casting aspersions on Mr Ntsebeza in newspaper interviews during the recent controversy over the allegations. We welcome the recommendations - 1. that a further investigation should be held to establish both the motives of Mr Bennet Sibaya in implicating Mr Ntsebeza and whether other persons conspired with Mr Sibaya; 2. that this further investigation should be overseen by the Independent Complaints Directorate of the SAPS; 3. that the Attorney General should consider criminal proceedings against Mr Sibaya. The TRC intends pursuing vigorously action against Captain John Lubbe, a former TRC investigator for improperly removing documents from our possession. The Commission also welcomes Judge Goldstone's perceptive references to the role which racism and fear of perceived racism may have played in the handling of this affair. We agree that it will require hard work from all sectors of society including within the TRC to overcome this problem. Thank you. DR BORAINE Thank you Archbishop. Mr Semenya I noticed your hand up, let me just before we adjourn then give you an opportunity. Order please. MR SEMENYA Chairperson to facilitate the conduct of my client's case tomorrow I would still make the request today that I obtain at least a statement of Lt Colonel Muller because I don't want to put that allegation as an if or a but. DR BORAINE Thank you this will be conveyed to - in fact he is listening to you carefully. MR VALLY I am told that we do not have a statement from Lt Colonel Muller, we have tried to in a general sense talk to a number of Security Branch policemen with their lawyers to secure their cooperation. We haven't succeeded in obtaining their cooperation, that is why we are putting on record that we see that as being part of the incomplete work of this hearing and we will have to subpoena them to the January hearing. Having said that we would also like to know how long does Mr Semenya envisage that his client will take with her opening address? DR BORAINE Are you able to - no. I think we should adjourn otherwise everybody is going to fall over. This meeting is adjourned. Thank you very much for all your cooperation. Half past eight tomorrow morning. HEARING ADJOURNS