special Mandela United Football Club Hearings Johannesburg 5 JERRY RICHARDSON, MR HESSLINGA, MR DEMPSEY, MR MOODLEY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56341&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/mandela/mufc8.htm THE HEARING COMMENCES WITH PRAYER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Good morning. I welcome you all very warmly to this the 8th day of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We just want to request that smokers will please note that this is in fact a non-smoking area, the whole place. Smoke outside, there are signs all over the place requesting that you shouldn't please smoke. You may - I was going to say pollute - but I won't say so. Please smoke outside of the buildings. We call on Mr Jerry Richardson. Can I just ask the police if they will kindly ensure that the people singing outside, sing out of earshot. I don't want to be disturbed. Thank you. Is Mr Richard here, oh, yes. MR RICHARD Mr Chairman, the prisoners have just arrived and there is a bit of a delay at the back. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon? MR RICHARD They have only just arrived. CHAIRPERSON May I just remind you that we are in fact live on television. Don't do anything you wouldn't like your children to see you doing. Order please. Good morning Mr Richardson? Can we just ask, thank you very much, can we just ask one of you officers, if you could please sit behind the witness, so that our briefer can sit next to him, thank you very much. We welcome you. JERRY RICHARDSON (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Order please. Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Mr Richardson, you started off on a good note. Is it correct that in the course, and over the last nearly 10 years, you have made many statements? In fact on various occasions you have seen a previous Advocate, that is Mr B. Vally, myself, Mr Pigou of the Truth Commission, Liela Groenewald of the Commission, the Police, the media and you have given evidence to ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Please Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Chairperson. I will repeat. You have made various statements to a previous legal practitioner, Mr B. Vally, myself, Mr Piers Pigou, Liela Groenewald, the Police, the media, you have given evidence in the various court cases, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, you've had the benefit of all of us taking you through your various versions and you realise that there are some inconsistencies between them. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Nonetheless, you have been served with a subpoena in terms of the relevant legislation, requiring you to answer and give us information on various matters. The first of which is the formation and the purpose of the Mandela United Football Club. Would you please, very shortly, describe your association with the sport of football before you got involved in this Football Club? Would you please give us a very short description, and I mean short, of your involvement in the sport of football before your involvement with the Mandela United Football Club, what did you do? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) CHAIRPERSON It is quite erroneous, let me ... MR RICHARD I am in the Chair's hands on this request. LENGTHY DISCUSSION BETWEEN CHAIRPERSON AND MR JERRY RICHARDSON - NO TRANSLATION MR VALLY Archbishop, I think we stand this matter down. We will convey to Mr Richardson's Attorney the implications of him refusing to give evidence here and we will also convey to Mr Richardson's Attorney our difficulty to try and arrange to get his family at such short notice. If possible we can try and telephone them, but failing that, we warned this witness that he has been sworn in, he is under oath, it is a criminal offence to refuse to proceed in this matter. MR RICHARD May I reply Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD I believe my learned colleague's suggestion is appropriate. I would like a brief adjournment while I discuss matters with my client. CHAIRPERSON Let's take a 10 minute break. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. COMMISSION ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION . CHAIRPERSON (No translation) JERRY RICHARDSON (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. (No translation) EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (continued) Mr Richardson, where we left off is that I had asked you the question would you please outline very briefly your association with the sport of soccer before you became the coach for the Mandela United Football Club? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Did you coach football teams and play soccer? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, some time towards the end of 1986, early 1987, you were approached by some youths. What did they request you to do? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD From where were these youths? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And what association did they have with any particular well-known individual, Mrs Mandela? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, this approach let you to meeting Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And what did you discuss with her at that first meeting? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And what did they ask you to do and what did they say to you? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And what was the discussion about? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, the soccer team was formed and an arrangement was arrived at whereby soccer boots, soccer jerseys, pants, socks and all the rest of the equipment were to be bought and the team came into existence, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, from where did you recruit the people who would play the soccer? You heard the evidence of Mr Azar Cachalia earlier this week or last week, and he described the displaced and homeless and disrupted youth of the time. Aren't those the people you recruited to play as well as ordinary, proper soccer players? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Right, now, the team came together. How many matches and where did they play matches? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Right. You've heard the evidence of individuals, such as Gift Ntombeni and other members of your team. Do you agree that their evidence roughly describes why the soccer team was formed and what the soccer team did? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Please proceed, but shortly. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD You said you disagreed with some of his evidence and you wanted so say something further. Would you please say it? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD With the permission of the Chairperson, would you like to tell us the points? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Right, Mr Richardson, that is not the question that I asked. Let's proceed. Right, now other than playing football, what other functions and duties did the football team perform? Did you go to funerals, did you guard the house, did you participate in the household management? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Right, since you go there. You've heard the policeman, Dempsey's evidence, where he says that there was a book at the Mandela residence in which various complaints and other information was written, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, what would happen if a complaint was registered in that book, be it against a member of the team or against a member of the public? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And what would happen if you fetched somebody and brought him back to the residence? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And there was another incident that you described to me where somebody was found inside the house that was being built in Orlando. Very shortly, outline what happened. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD When it came to the question of what the football did or did not do, what was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's role in those decisions and management? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD In the in camera hearing there was a suggestion that the football team was kept to the back, minded its own business, respected Mrs Mandela's privacy and the opposite was also true. Have you any comment on that opposition? In the Section 29, in camera hearing the impression that I gained was that a picture was being painted in terms of which the football team and the people living at the property respected Mrs Mandela's privacy, did not interfere in her house, didn't enter into the house and by the same token, Mrs Mandela largely let the team and the people living there, alone and got on with her own business. What comment do you have? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, what was your relationship with Mrs Mandela, was it you through which she spoke to the team or were there any other people who gave instructions? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, what political involvement did the team have at the time, was it part of the struggle or was it not part of the struggle, was it concerned only with football? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Did you ever become concerned with political issues as you say? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Sorry, I will try again. Later on, after you had become involved as the football coach, did you become more and more involved in political activities? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Right, now the next point that we go on to was the story of sell-outs, impimpi's and the like. Did you have any involvement in such individuals or in their affairs? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD My question is along these lines. In that particular environment and at those times, if somebody was pointed out as a sell-out, what would happen? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Who would get those instructions, the Disciplinary Committee or some other authority? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Right. Thank you. In April/May 1987 was there any change as a consequence of any instruction? Was the football team altered in any way? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Very well. Now, we will go onto the next point on the subpoena. Do you know somebody by the name of Morgan Bambisa, also known as Buchu? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Do you know anything about his murder? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD And who are they? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, did you participate in any way in the killing or is this just in general information that you know from the township? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Did you participate in the act which resulted in his death, yes or no? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Were you there when he was killed? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Thank you, we will go on to the next point. The murder of Zola Makhula and one other during the year 1987, do you know anything about that? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD You have no knowledge, and I can pass to the next one? Thank you. Point (d), the murder of Susan Maripa in October 1987. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD No knowledge, thank you. Then the abduction, torture and mutilation of the Makanda brothers some time during 1987? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD The next one the assault on Pumsile Dlamini some time during the year 1988? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD What do you know about it? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR RICHARD Now, who assaulted her? Just the names? MR RICHARDSON When I refer to Mandela United, I am talking about the people who used to reside in that yard. They will not be forced to assault, they were willing to assault. I would apologise in this point, because you will find out that at times I don't know their real names, that is the boys. There are very few that I knew their real names but Mandela United as the Club assaulted. MR RICHARD You say that you don't know the individual names of the perpetrators of the assaults, but you do say that the mere fact that you were told to take Ms Dlamini home by Mrs Mandela, was sufficient to make Ms Dlamini very, very scared. Why would that be? MR RICHARDSON They knew each time I accompanied them, there would be trouble. That is why she was so scared, but after assuring her that I won't do anything to her, she felt free and I really took her home and dropped her at her place and she opened her door and got inside her home. I did nothing to her. MR RICHARD Now, for the purposes of in chief, that is enough for Ms Dlamini. The next item on the subpoena is (g), that is the killing of Sergeant Pretorius in and during 1988. Now, when did you meet Sergeant Pretorius, could you please shortly tell us? MR RICHARDSON I met Pretorius at Oupa Seheri case at the High court. I was with Mrs Mandela the first time I met him and Zinzi and Charles Zwane. We had to get inside the lift and it was my first time to put my foot in the High court. When we got inside the lift, they told me that these are the police and I wondered why we got inside the same lift because I did not want anyone to touch Mommy and I was worried that they would touch Mommy. Only myself could touch Mommy, not anyone else. I had cut my hair and we got inside the court room and this boy looked at me and kept looking at some photo's that he had with him. We got to fourth floor or third floor and we got off the lift and we approached the room. Mommy did not tell us where to sit and she went to sit with Zinzi and myself and Charles Zwane sat on the other side. The Police got inside. They kept looking at these pictures, photo's. I heard him saying, you coach and I said to Charles, did you hear that, and I went to Mommy and I said to Mommy, he referred to me as coach and I saw Charles doing something and I said Charles, what are you doing, and Charles was talking about junior Slovo, and we saw junior Slovo getting out of the court room and I said (indistinct), that person got out. MR RICHARD I know it is a long story, but I am going to for the sake of time, cut you short on the story. You saw Mr Pretorius at the High court and then you saw him again in the area where you lived. Could you start up there again? MR RICHARDSON You know, I wanted us to take our time and now you keep instructing me to be fast, and I wanted us to get into details, but I will try my best. Charles Zwane left us and went to sit in the court room and I told Mazet, when I say Mazet I am referring to Zinzi, I said Mazet, there is Charles leaving and we used to put on T-shirts that had some writing on and she said go and (indistinct) and I went back to Mazet and said Mazet, he will be coming and he got inside and there was silence in the court and we stood up. And we saw Oupa Seheri wearing a brown overall and I was wondering is this how High court operates? MR RICHARD Now, we are talking about your meeting with Sergeant Pretorius, you saw Sergeant Pretorius at the High court and you became most perturbed because he was looking at you and he had a photograph in his hand. The Oupa Seheri case concluded, when did you see him again? MR RICHARDSON I don't quite remember when I saw Pretorius again and where because when I look at the sketch that I have here, it does not collaborate with what I am saying because it is divided, there is soccer issues and there is Pretorius issues. CHAIRPERSON I think, perhaps if you will accommodate your client and try and - he seems to say he has categories and perhaps you might just in leading him, go into those categories and let him ... (intervention) MR RICHARD Chairperson, I am indebted. My client does want to tell all the details, however, from past experiences during the week, time is limited. CHAIRPERSON I hear what you say you have arranged your information according to categories, but because we don't have enough time, please be brief. When he asks you a question, quickly look at your sketch and answer immediately. MR RICHARD Thank you Chair, so we can go back to the High court. Now, have you finished telling us what happened at the High court? MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR RICHARD Now, according to what I am told and instructed, one day you were going to a station somewhere near where you lived and you saw a vehicle with an individual in it. Would you please proceed from there on? MR RICHARDSON Each time I went to work, I will put on the Mandela United tracksuit. Now they used to trace me and to want to find out where my residential place is. At the back the tracksuit was written Mandela United Football Club. I went to Muzimuhle station and I saw a car parked. I went home and I took my tracksuits to gym. I met the boy that time. I went to work and I got back and he stopped me. I saw one guy called Shabalala who called me and said I am a (indistinct) Chief and I said what (indistinct) are you talking about. Then he said, no it is fine, just go. Just before I reached my house, I saw another car parked and I got inside my house and I saw the boy or the gentleman that I was talking to, passing again. MR RICHARD And what happened next? MR RICHARDSON After that, I was confused as to what was happening. One day Pretorius got home and arrested me. He took me to a bush and when we got there, he said coach I would like for you to work with me. I said, in what manner? I want information, that was Pretorius saying that. I want information about the Football Club and I realised that I was in danger now and I said yes, I can work with you and he said okay, let's get into the car and we drove off. Now, I went to Ellis Park and I saw him in the car again and he gave me a lift again and said I should get inside the car and he said I will make it a point that I keep an eye on you and he dropped me next to the road and he took off and I got inside the stadium and I watched soccer and he came to my work place as well. MR RICHARD And did you start providing Sergeant Pretorius with information? MR RICHARDSON No, I never gave him any information. MR RICHARD You didn't start providing him with any information that might have been useful to the Police about the Mandela household or the Football team or the activities of cadres? MR RICHARDSON No. I never did. MR RICHARD Right, so we will come back to that. That leads us onto an event, that leads us to an event on the 9th of November 1988, where were you on that day, you remember it clearly? MR RICHARDSON 1988. MR RICHARD The 9th of November? MR RICHARDSON I was at my house in Muzimuhle. I was with some friends that I used to call them with their names Sipho and Debogo. How I knew my friends was through Mrs Mandela because she said she will give me some guys to live with and she did bring them to me. On that day when she brought them home, she never left both of them, she only left Sipho and she went away with Debogo. MR RICHARD On the 24th of November 1988, do you remember making a statement to the South African Police about the events that took place on that day? MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR RICHARD And do you remember giving both Adv Vally and myself a statement about the events of what happened at your house? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Now, without me reading the statements to you and taking you line by line through it, would you briefly describe what happened? MR RICHARDSON I don't want to hide anything. I have put everything on paper. Like I said, I have given so many statements, but they are very economical with the truth. MR RICHARD That is why I am asking you to tell us and take us into your confidence now as to what happened on that day. MR RICHARDSON I want to go back to that matter. What I am about to say, won't collaborate with what is in the statement, today is a different day completely, it is not that day. MR RICHARD I am not concerned with what I have in front of me, I am concerned with what you are about to tell us. CHAIRPERSON Order please thank you. MR RICHARDSON This is what I have in mind. Mrs Mandela came with two people in her micro bus. Shakes was the one driving. There was Shakes, Mrs Mandela and the two others in the car. Mrs Mandela got out of the car and got inside my house to me. She had told me before that she was coming and she told me that I am bringing these people now and I said no problem, Mommy, because I had my girl there in the house and he left the boy. I knew already everything as to what was happening and Sipho got inside and we were playing TV games with my girl, my daughter and Sipho requested that I excuse the girl from our company because he wanted us to talk about something. And we started talking and said Mommy has told me everything about you, you are very alive and you are very active with soccer and Mommy told me everything about you. Now, we will get into details about life. I am a guerilla. Then I said oh, I have heard about guerilla's and Sipho went on and on talking. And he asked as to which bedroom he will sleep in and I showed him the bedroom and I told him that I will be sleeping in the sitting room. When he was getting to the bedroom, I already knew that he was going to sleep there and my girl came back to me and now we were talking, the three of us. He was looking around, kept looking around the house and he lived with me then. MR RICHARD For how long did he live with you? MR RICHARDSON He lived with me for quite a long time, possibly nine months upwards. What I mean is he lived with me close to nine months. MR RICHARD Now, did anyone else come and live with you during that period? MR RICHARDSON It so happened that where Debogo used to live in Diepkloof extension, he had a conflict with the people in that house because of the girlfriend issues and each time he went to Mrs Mandela's, Sipho would have to go and get information from Mrs Mandela and Sipho told me that there was a problem emanating and he did not know that we were living the four of us, in the house now. And Sipho said without Mommy's knowledge, we might get into trouble. MR RICHARD And what else did Sipho and Debogo ask you? MR RICHARDSON Sipho told me that it was time for me to go get my material. I should go to Mama and indeed I went to Mama and I told her that Sipho had sent me. He had given me some letters and he had covered them and I did not even bother to open them, I did not know what they were communicating about through the letters. Indeed, I gave Mama the letters and Mama said Gogo Falati, go with Jerry to give Jerry that bag. Just around the corner, they went there and they got the bag and they gave it to me and I ran out of the yard with the bag and I got to the house and I gave it to Sipho. Sipho opened the bag in the house in the bedroom, and there was a lock. It was locked and Jerry showed me in the bedroom all what was inside the bag and instructed me that I shall never let the child get inside that room. MR RICHARD What was in the bag? MR RICHARDSON There was AK47, but divided. There was AK47 separated, there were grenades as well. I was even scared of touching those things, I just looked at them. MR RICHARD Now, this clearly is slightly different to what happened on the 9th of November. How long before the 9th of November was this? Some days, some weeks? MR RICHARDSON I don't remember. It was around November. MR RICHARD Now, you were never asked to take your guests to show them both suitable places for their targets? MR RICHARDSON Sipho said that. MR RICHARD Did you ever take them anywhere or did you ever say anything in answer to their questions, if so, what? MR RICHARDSON I took them to show them the targets. I went with them to Josh Koch, I took them to a home of the aged, the white home and we left for Krugersdorp and I showed them another place in Krugersdorp. MR RICHARD Did you ever tell anyone else who was staying with you during November 1988, besides Mrs Mandela? MR RICHARDSON No, I don't remember. MR RICHARD Very well. Right, now to the events of the 9th of November. You were in your garden, your two guests were inside the house and people started arriving, various people. Who were they? MR RICHARDSON On that day, on the 9th of November, there was a Valiant car in my premises, it was parked there, I borrowed it from a friend, because I had guests and at times I would have to take them around or drive them around, and my friend borrowed me that car. And I showed it to Sipho that this is the car that we will be using. On the 9th of November, something good happened, because Guybon arrived and two young boys arrived as well. And Lolo Sono arrived and Shabalala. Shabalala's first name I did not know, I just found out about it right now. We had our unique way that we used to operate with. And I went to the Valiant and told them to get inside and I asked them questions as to what they wanted. And they said they got information from Mommy, and I said Mommy? They said yes, we got information from Mommy that we should come here and there is a trip to Lusaka that will depart from this place. And there was - no before the window I saw Guybon jumping the fence. When Guybon jumped the fence, I got surprised as to why he jumped the fence and I asked him why he jumped the fence. And Guybon said I am sorry and he sat down. I went back to those boys. I said to those boys, do you mean there is a trip to Zambia, Lusaka and I left them in the car. Debogo said one of those boys is my brother, and please ask him to get inside, but he shall not come into the house, he shall go right next to the toilet, I will go to him. I told him and they met behind the toilet outside. I did not know as to what they were talking about. MR RICHARD And what happened next? MR RICHARDSON Now, they were talking there, I did not know as to what they were talking about, but I saw that boy coming back and got inside the car and I was inside the car with the other one. Guybon was still sitting down there, and I finished with them, I went inside the house and Debogo said, look Richardson, here is R20, please give it to the boys and take them, don't take them to any taxi's, but make it a point that they go to town. We jumped the rail line to the up town, just another section of Muzimuhle, and I stopped a taxi and I told the taxi, please take these boys, take them right to town, here is the R20 and give the change to them and he agreed to do that and they left and I went back home. And I got inside and I reported to him as to what happened. Guybon was still sitting down there, and I went back to Guybon and asked Guybon as to what was bothering him or what was happening and Guybon said Mommy has sent me to come and fetch Sipho and Guybon said, I am with Hotstix Mabuse and I said, Sipho, you and Sipho and he said yes. And I said, wait a minute and I went back into the house and I told Sipho that Guybon is with me outside and he is saying he is here to fetch you. Sipho said go and tell Guybon that I am not going and he said he was Hotstix Mabuza and Sipho said I am not going. Go tell him that I am not going with him. I went back to Guybon to tell him and he left. When you are in my house, looking across you will see a tarred road, it is a busy road used by the taxi's and heavy traffic. I saw him going across there and I went inside to tell them that I saw a BMW, a red BMW. MR RICHARD Then you were in the garden at a certain stage in the proceedings and an event happened. Let's get to that point? MR RICHARDSON After Guybon left, I took the hosepipe to water my lawn. After finishing that, I decided to wash up the car and I opened up the boot and there were balls, footballs inside the boot because people knew that I am a soccer person. I washed up the car. When I turned around, I saw people running, approaching my house. When I tried to concentrate, I realised that they were coming straight to me. I knocked at the door and I told them that things are bad outside. And the Police arrested me, only to find that those police have been surveilling the house and my girl was doing laundry outside and she ran as well. She ran away, she jumped the fence. It is a walled fence, she jumped the fence and I never saw her. Now, I heard the gun shots, I did not know whether the gun shot was from inside or it was from outside from the Police. And I was taken right into the police van. They closed everything, I could not see anything outside and I heard a gun shot again. MR RICHARD And was there any more gun fire and when did you next see something? See or hear? MR RICHARDSON Yes, there was shooting until it was quiet. And I even thought the house was destroyed from all the, and I tried to open the curtain, the window curtain from the van to peep and see as to what was happening outside, but I could not see anything. They went back inside the house to search the house, and I was inside the van. And I kept peeping through the window and I could see that they were doing something in the house. I saw other two cars arriving, Black Mariah and the ambulance arriving and I was wondering why those cars were coming and I saw three stretchers and that amazed me and I was also removed and we drove to Protea. MR RICHARD And how long did you stay in Protea? MR RICHARDSON I was taken on the 9th of November and was brought back home on the 25th of November. MR RICHARD Mr Chairperson, at this juncture there are certain matters that I need to take re-instruction from the witness on. And I would like a five minute adjournment before I ask him further questions on the disappearance of Lolo Sono? CHAIRPERSON I would hope we wouldn't keep having the adjournments that you take your instructions, but I think, I understand having been given your brief, okay, is it possible to take tea? I think maybe let us take a tea break and get back at twenty five past. MR RICHARD I am indebted, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. COMMISSION ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION . CHAIRPERSON I am sounding like a cracked record. Order please. Thank you, are you ready Mr Richard? MR RICHARD I am ready. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, could you please continue? MR RICHARD I shall do my best Chairperson. Right, Mr Richardson, we were at the point that a shootout had happened and you were in Protea police station. Now, you came out on the 25th of November 1988, where did you go once you left the police station? MR RICHARDSON I went to Mrs Mandela's place in Diepkloof extension. MR RICHARD Right, who did you meet there? MR RICHARDSON Mrs Mandela herself. I am sorry, I can't say Mrs Mandela, I am used to saying Mommy, as well as Zinzi. When I got there some of the members of the Mandela United Football Club, they said coach is back now. When I got into the house, I came across Mommy and Zinzi. We sat down, I was welcomed warmly. They offered me tea and I told them as to how I had worked. We sat chatting away and I explained to them as to how I got out of prison. I explained to them that I had denied everything. I spoke about a certain Solomon Zwane, he was a President of White City Brothers. They welcomed me very warmly. They invited other comrades to welcome me as well. Amongst the comrades were Charles Zwane, Sonwabo and the others. MR RICHARD Were there any suspicions voiced to you about yourself? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I could say Charles Zwane as well as Sonwabo. We were brought some tins, some liquor, Amstel because I am beer drinker and I love drinking. We started drinking and that is when they approached me and asked me as to why I had been released earlier than they expected. I related the story to them that I devised some means so that I could be released. Sonwabo said to me that I am an informer, that is why they released me earlier than they were supposed to. I said he should take a stand as a Commander and deal with me as he was alleging that I was an informer. And at that stage, I stopped drinking because I was scared that they were going to assault me or kill me whilst I was drunk. Charles Zwane intervened and said that they trusted me as a coach and they did not believe that I was an informer. MR RICHARD Yes, but then they decided to keep you there until they had made further enquiries and there was this discussion about bringing Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala, would you please carry on from there? MR RICHARDSON As we were still arguing, I could see that I wanted the Commander to actually discipline me as he was alleging that I was an informer. He went out to Mommy and told Mommy. Charles followed and I was left all by myself in the study room, but not inside, we were just sitting on the floor, just next to the study room. They came back. Sonwabo came out with an ultimatum and said as from today, you are being brought under house arrest, you are not to go anywhere outside the gate and you are not to meet any people or members of the public, you should just remain in the house. And they told me that I was going to sleep in the house because my life was in danger, so they were trying to secure my safety. I accepted that. MR RICHARD And then the decision was made to find, to bring or to produce the two young persons, that is Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. That is what happened through Guybon because he is the one that told me that he is going to bring these two young men because they were the culprits. I asked them as to what they had done. He said they were suspects and he wanted to take me with to fetch these two young men, because they trusted me. We organised some transport, Guybon Kubheka drove. MR RICHARD And were they not found very near the house, indeed on the property? MR RICHARDSON There is a very big problem, because there was a decision, so I do not know whether these youths were at the garage or the back rooms. But Guybon came back with those two youths, I saw them with my own eyes. MR RICHARD And how did they appear, were they in a good state of health or were they injured, or showed no injuries? MR RICHARDSON They had been severely assaulted and Guybon is just like me, their hands were tied as well as their feet. I saw them at the garage. I had given R20-00 to the driver earlier on and Guybon said I should assault. The intention was to assault him and leave him. Then I assaulted them and left them. Guybon said we should take them back, but I did not want to because I had earlier been accused of being an informer, so I did not want to get involved. MR RICHARD For how long were they, after you saw them in the house that day shortly after your release, still kept in the house, and if you know where, where were they kept? MR RICHARDSON I am not really sure as to how many days they stayed because I was very weary of Sonwabo. I knew that my life was in danger at that stage. MR RICHARD Right. Then, the next question, the next question that comes about, was there was discussion and debate as to what to do with Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Were you present when there was that conversation? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I was present. MR RICHARD Now, what was the conversation? MR RICHARDSON They discussed the spot at which they were to dump the two youths. A very secluded spot and each and everyone of them came up with a suggestion and an opinion as to where the two youths should be dumped. They were not talking straight for one to understand. They were using some codes to communicate. MR RICHARD Now, you are describing a situation where it appeared that a decision had already been made to, as you say, dump them. What does the word dump mean? MR RICHARDSON This is a very beautiful word. If you dump something, you dump it because you don't want to make use of the thing any more. This means that you kill the person, and you dump the body, where nobody else could find it. MR RICHARD Who made that decision, was it Sonwabo or Guybon or any one else? MR RICHARDSON This came from Sonwabo and Mommy was a participant as well because she was the one who gave the go ahead or the green light for anything to happen. MR RICHARD Now, very well, so the decision that was left to be made, was where and how? Now, how long did it take for that decision to be made, was it one day or a number of days? MR RICHARDSON If I am not mistaken, I think they took one or two days. This was a very serious job that needed to be carried out and I showed them some spot where they could dump the bodies. I took Guybon and showed him quite several of these spots. MR RICHARD Is it not so that Guybon asked you for a safe place and you said that in your opinion the safest place is a mine dump on the outskirts of a hostel, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD Now, the next morning, there was a conversation between yourself and Mrs Mandela, what was that? MR RICHARDSON I think I have forgotten as to what we talked about. I am not sure whether we discussed the matter that I should go with Guybon to the dumping site or I should go and look for the dumping site and report back. I don't remember. MR RICHARD Well, the following morning according to the notes, 1 December 1988, Guybon came at approximately eleven o'clock, and said that today we will solve this problem with Sonwabo. Is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON That much I don't remember. MR RICHARD Now, who went to the mine dump? MR RICHARDSON Shakes was driving, it was Guybon, Ninja as well as myself. We took some spades and shovels at my place in Muzimhuhle and went to the mine dump. We did not look at all suspicious, we went up to focus place and the car was parked quite a distance. We went on foot, because Guybon knew the place very well. MR RICHARD Were you with the two young men, the youths and the rest of the company or were you somewhere else? MR RICHARDSON At the time that they were dumping the youths, we were left in the car, myself and Shakes. Guybon and Ninja went up with the two youths, tied together. MR RICHARD How long were they away for? MR RICHARDSON It was late in the afternoon and it was slightly dark, we were next to the hostel. I think it was quite a few minutes. I can't estimate. I am not able to tell you as to how many minutes they left. MR RICHARD And then, what happened? MR RICHARDSON They went with the two youths, without the spades and the shovels. I followed with the utensils and at the time, Guybon was busy killing the other one. He was killing him, slaughtering him like a goat. MR RICHARD You were there to witness both deaths? MR RICHARDSON I talked about the slaughtering and he just had to hit him once on the neck and at that stage I left, so I did not really see as to how he slaughtered him. MR RICHARD Some time later, the other rejoined you and what did you do next? MR RICHARDSON As soon as they finished slaughtering him, we got into the car, we went back to Mrs Mandela's place to give her a report back. We inspected ourselves as to whether we didn't have any blood stains or any tell tales of what we have just done. Shakes went into the house and we went back into the back rooms. Guybon left, he went to his own place. MR RICHARD Did you ever go back to the scene, either alone? MR RICHARDSON Yes, we went back to the scene, I went back to the scene. Myself with another Commander, Themba. I really wished I could get more time to talk about this matter. Mommy introduced me to this guy whose name was Themba, but he refused to tell me what his surname is and he said he was a member of Umkonto weSizwe, that surprised me very much, because I knew that he was playing football at some stage. And he gave me some forms to give them to Themba to fill in. These forms were called a profile. You fill this in and hand it over to Mommy. Mommy told me that the person who was filling the forms, was going to come back and I was going to show him a certain place. Now Themba had a problem, because he was eating what I was eating. He always had something nice with him. And I asked him where does he get this nice thing that he is eating. MR RICHARD What did you and Themba do? MR RICHARDSON From Mommy's office Mommy used to call me (indistinct) Jerry, and she instructed me to show Themba that place. And Themba stayed for quite a few minutes and I also stayed in Mommy's office and Themba came back to tell me that he was ready, we could leave. We took a taxi to Meadowlands. I was showing Themba the place. We went up to the mountain. When we got to the top of the mountain, I showed him the map. I showed him some corners and I showed him as to where this people were doing their job. We even found traces of blood. He said I should go break a branch so that he can show me as to what they do as guerillas after having killed a person. He put some branches. MR RICHARD And how many graves did you see, one or more? MR RICHARDSON Where we saw blood, we tried to wipe it off and we put some branches on top of these blood stains. And there were about four blocks. MR RICHARD And once you had finished tidying up, what did you do next? MR RICHARDSON We moved away, we proceeded to Diepkloof extension. When we came back, we came across Mommy, she was at the garage, not inside the house. Even before I could speak, Mommy held me and said, my boy, my boy. And I asked myself as to how she knew that we were coming from that place. Probably she knew beforehand that we were going there and she knew our mission. I reported back to her as to what we did when we got there. It was myself, Mommy and Themba. MR RICHARD Right. Then, in the more recent past, 1995 to the present, have you ever been back to that site, and if so, how often? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD And what happened on each occasion? MR RICHARDSON Aren't you interested to know as to who I went back with? Police came. MR RICHARD When was that? MR RICHARDSON That was in 1995. I want you to listen very carefully to this very important aspect. I was in Lokop at that time and I was from the cell of the condemned people. This white person came to me. This person was some sort of, he was not really white. I think he was another nationality that I did not understand. He was half white, I was called that I had a visitor. I went on to dress to see who my visitor is. When I approached him, I told him that he had assaulted me at first. He said we should let bygones be bygones. He told me that they did not have much information about me and the only person who knew much about me, was Pretorius. This person promised me that they would give me money or offer me a sum of money and they would make me comfortable in prison if only we could tell, or I could tell them as to where I dumped the two youths. I said I would welcome the idea, because I would love to have the money. He asked me as to how we worked with Pretorius. I told him I was not prepared to divulge any information with regard to Pretorius. And he said to me Pretorius was an Indian, this Indian went with a white person. As I was in my cell, writing some notes, I was thinking of the money that I had been offered. And I realised that I had to speak the truth. This person came back to me together with this half white. I was called now the second time, I was further promised a sum of money and I said to him, you must pay up front if you want me to talk, but he didn't give me any money. He asked me if I wanted to board a plane or a helicopter. I could see that this Indian man was disturbed. He went away and came back with a lump sum of money, and showed it to me. I said just keep the money with you. I asked him what he wanted, and he said he wants Lolo Sono as well as Shabalala. I told him that I was going to show him the place where I assaulted Kuki. He was very exited about the idea of being shown Kuki's grave. MR RICHARD Mr Richardson, slow down. We are still with Sono and Shabalala. Carry on. MR RICHARDSON I am used to playing soccer, I am not an administrator, so I have a problem with the way you want me to conduct myself. We are talking about Lolo now? MR RICHARD Yes, we are talking about Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Kuki Zwane will come next. MR RICHARDSON Thank you. You must bear in mind that we are talking about dead people. MR RICHARD Proceed. MR RICHARDSON I promised this man that I would take him to the spot and he said that if I wanted to be taken in a helicopter, he would do that. If I wanted to use public transport or taxi's, he would make sure that I had a taxi. I said I would prefer public transport and there were people who knew me, who I wanted to see. We went with this Indian man and I could see that there were cars following us. I had been booked out of the prison for that particular occasion. I showed him the place at Muzimuhle, the mine dump and I told him as to how the map worked. I showed him the spot from one point to the other, and he made some measurements. He took photo's of me. He took a photo of me whilst I was doing the pointing out. I was wearing a blue top. I don't remember the trousers that I was wearing. We reached an agreement with him that I want to go and see my children. He agreed to take me there. We went to Muzimuhle and when I got to my house, I met Virginia Erasmus Richardson. MR RICHARD Thank you. On a later occasion this year, you went there again. This time with a number of other people, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD Can you tell us about it? Did you take them to the same place? MR RICHARDSON That is true. MR RICHARD And you do know that bodies were not found as a result of either pointing out? MR RICHARDSON I still don't believe that, even today. MR RICHARD Now, is there a possibility that the two bodies of the two young men, young boys, could be found there, but in a slightly different place? MR RICHARDSON I took an oath that I will speak the truth. I do believe that you can make a mistake even if you are under oath, but it is within that vicinity that I pointed out. Maybe if the TRC could stretch the area, maybe we could get some bodies. MR RICHARD Now, you spoke about a map. Who drew this map? MR RICHARDSON I don't remember who drew the map between Guybon and myself. MR RICHARD Okay, now we have dealt with the events starting on the 9th of November and continuing into December. Now, the next fixed point that we have, is the discovery of Kuki Zwane's body on the 18th of December 1988. I mention that because according to page 20 of what has been described as an investigation diary, it is not technically an investigation diary, there is a note which in Afrikaans says the mortuary at Diepkloof was visited and Constable Raat was consulted. According to the mortuary register on the 18th of December ... MR VALLY I am sorry Mr Chairman, there is an Afrikaans interpreter available. If Mr Richard can just hold on and we can put him in position. MR RICHARD I think I have referred to the document with sufficient clarity for people to know to what I am referring. Now, what that in summary says is that the body was found on the 18th of December 1988, at a certain place. Now, how did the police learn that this body was that of Kuki Zwane's, can you tell us who Kuki Zwane is? MR RICHARDSON I think you made a mistake. At the very same place, the second group that I went with, was not explained as to who they were. I went with the police and pointed the place out and I want to explain to you as to who the second group was or who did they comprise of. CHAIRPERSON Please do tell us. MR RICHARDSON The second group, there was a lady who works for the TRC. I think her name is Liela. I can point her out. She is the one who came to me to request me. I was happy that I was going to be accompanied by a white lady. CHAIRPERSON Order please. Yes, Mr Richardson. Yes, you have told us that you went with the TRC officials. Could you please just answer the question as to who Kuki Zwane is or was? MR RICHARD She according to my notes was the girlfriend of one Bothile and he was a member of your Club, to help you. Bothile came from Brandfort, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now, what brought Kuki Zwane to be found in December 1988 somewhere near a railway line and a school, dead? MR RICHARDSON As you have already explained, Kuki was Bothile's girlfriend. We went to Brandfort with Mommy together with Mandela United Football Club. Bothile disappeared and we don't know where he went to. We got some information to the effect that he had gone back to Brandfort. We went to Brandfort. When we got to Brandfort, we met with Kuki and Bothile. I think the first time we did not see Kuki, but we saw her the second time we went there, we brought them back. MR RICHARD Now, it is correct that Bothile and Kuki came back with you to Johannesburg and then there was an interview between Mrs Mandela and Bothile and according to this, Mrs Mandela asked Bothile something about Kuki, what was it? MR RICHARDSON That is correct. MR RICHARD What did she ask? MR RICHARDSON She asked as to whether Bothile was involved with Kuki. Bothile said yes and she said as from today, you should just go out and look for a job. And she said he must go and look for work. I admonished Bothile and said he must finish off his relationship with Kuki and join the Mandela Football Club, but at a later stage he left for Lusaka. Kuki was living just near by. We saw that she went straight to her place. MR RICHARD And now, why were people not well disposed to Kuki? MR RICHARDSON I think Kuki was labelled as an informer at some stage, because she was not acting in accordance with Mommy's instructions. MR RICHARD What were those instructions that she disobeyed? MR RICHARDSON That she must terminate her relationship with Bothile. MR RICHARD Now, did this lead, to cut it very short, to a suspicion that Kuki was an informer? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD And why was Kuki thought to be an informer? MR RICHARDSON If they chase you at Madiba's place, and you do not want to leave, you are told specifically that Madiba is not there and if you do not want to leave, they brand you as an informer and that you want to take the secrets of the household and divulge them to outside members. And they told me that I should put an eye on Kuki because Bothile also had a drinking problem. MR RICHARD Now, this discussion about the unsatisfactory state of affairs about Bothile and Kuki, went on for a number of weeks, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true, it went on for quite some time. MR RICHARD And a decision was made, what was that decision? MR RICHARDSON I was approached to assault Kuki and she had once appeared before the Disciplinary Committee. And a decision was taken that Kuki should be assaulted and that was our task, all of us. John Morgan used to take the children to school and he also got wind of the fact that Kuki was going to be assaulted. MR RICHARD And did she get assaulted? MR RICHARDSON Yes, Kuki was assaulted. I selected members of the team with whom I was going to carry out this task. I selected Killa and explained to Killa what our task was and I pointed out that I trusted Killa very much. We moved from Diepkloof extension, I got R10-00 from Zinzi. We took a taxi. The taxi was going to Meadowlands and I had told a lie to Kuki and misled her to the fact that Bothile was in Meadowlands. I just pointed out a spot next to the station. As the taxi went passed Orlando stadium, I paid the fare. We got out of the taxi, together with Killa. There are two schools there. There is a stadium, there is another school. First school and there is a second school. In between there, there was a large rock and I told myself that we were going to use this large rock to kill Kuki because I did not have an initial plan as to how I was going to kill Kuki. I stabbed her, I slit her throat. We dumped her body there. MR RICHARD And what happened in 1995 when Detective, Major, whatever his rank is, H.T. Moodley came to see you? MR RICHARDSON I haven't yet finished with Kuki. Could I just finish? MR RICHARD Certainly. MR RICHARDSON We left Kuki's body there. I moved with Killa towards Muzimuhle. I went to my place where I usually go to check if there aren't any tell tales of the offence that we had just committed. We went to my place and we looked. My place at the time was disused, because nobody was staying there. I washed whatever traces there were, in the river and I believed that I was going to dry along the way. I reported to Mommy that Mommy, I have now carried out your orders, I have killed Kuki. And she said, the following day she wanted me to show her as to where I dumped Kuki's body. We got into the car with Mommy, we went through Noordgesig towards Killa Road and I pointed out to Mommy. She was on the driver's seat and I was on the passenger seat. I just pointed out at a distance that there is the place that I dumped Kuki's body. She pointed out that the school kids will discover the body very quickly. I made a mistake by dumping the body at such a spot. We went to the office, we parked the car as if we were checking at the office. We went out, we parked the car. That was how we left Kuki's body. MR RICHARD And then, did you ever speak about it to anyone else again between then and 1995? MR RICHARDSON I don't remember but it was myself and Killa who knew about this. MR RICHARD When Mr H.T. Moodley came to see you in 1995, did you mention this story to him? MR RICHARDSON When Moodley came in 1995, we reached an agreement that he would give me an amount of R10 000-00 for me to point out where Kuki's body was dumped. He had R10 000-00 with him, and we left. I don't know whether we started at the Orlando police station. We went in a kombi, I got off and I told him that the school children are going to disturb us. I wasn't going to be able to point this area out because that was an area where school children walked up and down, to and from school. And really when I got out of the car, a school kid greeted me and this kid followed me and even touched me. She even asked for money which she was offered by Moodley. I pointed the place out and they said they wanted to take a photo of me whilst I did the pointing out. These are terrible things that I did. I told Moodley that he had made a mistake by taking me to that area during a school break. MR RICHARD Thank you. We must turn to the next part of the subpoena and that is the kidnapping and murder of the five individuals, including Stompie Seipei. Now, there when did you first meet Xoliswa Falati? MR RICHARDSON I didn't care much about Falati, I used to see her coming to Mrs Mandela's offices and I think she was working hand in hand with Mrs Mandela. She would come and go. She also had her two kids with her, but I don't remember which year was it that I first saw her. MR RICHARD Now, certain events happened some time around the 27th of December. Is it not correct that on that day Xoliswa Falati came to the house in Diepkloof? MR RICHARDSON Which year was that? MR RICHARD 1988, 27th December, some time around there? MR RICHARDSON That is correct MR RICHARD And what did Ms Falati say, she had various complaints? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. She had a series of complaints. MR RICHARD What were they, could you please tell the Commission what were Ms Falati's complaints? MR RICHARDSON She was seen by Mrs Mandela when she came, I was at the back room at the time. I think she spoke to Mrs Mandela with regard to her complaints. She was with four other people, Mompumalelo, her son, Katiza, she took them into the house, but I was told at a later stage by Extra Strong, that name was given to him by Mommy, that he was extra strong. Falati got into the house and Extra Strong came to tell me. I wasn't there at the time when they carried out the conversation but they came to me whilst I was sitting with Sledge. We were playing some music. MR RICHARD Right, now as a result of those conversations, you received certain instructions, what were those instructions? Weren't they that you and John Morgan should go and do something? MR RICHARDSON I think I should relate the story as full as possible, but due to time constraints I think I will be very brief. We were given instructions that we should take the kombi. Morgan was supposed to drive and the yard was full of youths. I did not know who to select at that stage and they said that there was a problem, that we needed to sort out. I told Morgan that we should take the bigger bus that came from Durban. So we took the bigger bus. MR RICHARD Where were you going to go in the bigger bus? MR RICHARDSON We were going to drop another group next to Muzimuhle and I would select a few members of the Club to go with. MR RICHARD And what were you going to do and why were you going to do it? MR RICHARDSON We were going to proceed to the church, greet with respect, introduce ourselves and ask to take the children who had a problem, that had earlier been reported. We parked the bus a bit further down because Morgan didn't know as to where we were going. We were just singing our slogans and our freedom songs, so we left Morgan in the bus and proceeded into the church. We said Falati should lead the way because she is the one who brought the complaint. We followed Falati in. Sledge also went in. They were playing cards inside and he stood guard so that they shouldn't escape. Falati addressed them and called them by their names. She started with Stompie and the others followed. I had about four youths standing in front of me. At that time Sledge had started assaulting the youths. I admonished him to stop. The poor children looked very terrified. I told them to be free, because they were with Jerry Richardson, the coach of the Mandela Football Club. They were quite relaxed to know me. We took them with. We did not force any of the youths to come with us. All went out voluntarily towards the bus. We drove. MR RICHARD What were the complaints that made you go and fetch them, please tell us? Something to do with Paul Verryn. I can't ask leading questions. MR RICHARDSON According to Falati, that there was a white male by the name of Paul Verryn who was abusing the youths. He was sodomising them. MR RICHARD Right, now you brought these young men and one person back to the residence and what happened there. Was there a conversation between them and Mrs Mandela? MR RICHARDSON We drove the bus towards Diepkloof. We were singing freedom songs and Xoliswa Falati was leading us in those songs and we were dancing and ululating. We were all free and happy inside the bus. Morgan parked the bus. We went into the yard, we proceeded to my room because they were not supposed to go into the main house which we called Parliament. We were busy singing our freedom songs, we went into the house, we sat. We called Mommy, I am the one who fetched Mommy and I brought her. I told her that we had brought the four youths. Mommy was quite happy. When we got into my room, there were no chairs. I sent one of them to go and fetch a chair and I wanted another chair to be brought in. I told Morgan to stand up and offer the chair to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, but he refused. One of the youths brought a chair, and I offered Mommy the chair. She sat down and all of us sat down as we are sitting right now. MR RICHARD And then you were told to take one of them. Who were you told to take? MR RICHARDSON Mommy introduced herself to the youths. Actually it was Falati who introduced Mommy to the children and Kenny was the eldest. I was instructed to take Kenny, Sledge took Stompie. Each and every one of us had a youth with him. I went into the jacuzzi, but there wasn't any water in the jacuzzi. I sat with Kenny and asked him as to what was happening at the manse. Kenny related the story to me that Paul Verryn was sodomising them. He would caress them and he wanted to sleep with them. I hit him with an open hand. Because I usually put on rings on my fingers, he got a bruise on his eye and I said I was going to tell Mommy whatever he had told me. I took him with to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and related the story that they were being sodomised by Paul Verryn. Mommy sat him down and they others were brought in, but the reports that they gave were not reconcilable. They gave different statements and conflicting reports as to what was happening. And comrade Falati said he had some little things with him which he could not account for. He could not tell them as to where he got them from. He had a watch ... (intervention) MR RICHARD Who is he? Who is this person that Falati is talking about at the moment, Ms Falati? MR RICHARDSON It was Stompie who had some articles in his pocket. He got a watch, a small wrist watch, a battery operated wrist watch. I took this watch from him. CHAIRPERSON I just wondered how are we getting? MR RICHARD We are a long way through it, but it is still a long way to go. Is it not correct that Sledge had Stompie with him and then the accusation was that Stompie, because of these things, was an informer? Is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I think it is so. MR RICHARD Now, at that stage, you and Sledge started doing something, please tell us what you did. MR RICHARDSON We did a lot of things with Sledge. Some pretty bad things, but I am disturbed that Sledge is around and he is not willing to come and testify. Sledge is very much alive and kicking. We started torturing the youths in the manner that the boers used to torture freedom fighters. The first thing that I did to Stompie was to hold him with both sides, throw him up in the air and let him fall freely onto the ground. Mommy was sitting and watching us. I think we threw Stompie about seven times in the air and he fell onto the ground. He was tortured so severely that at some stage I could see that he would ultimately die. MR RICHARD Was he only thrown up into the air and dropped or was any other assault performed on him? MR RICHARDSON There is a lot of things that we did to Stompie. We kicked him, we just kicked him like a ball. We did a lot of things. MR RICHARD Now, did any sjambok ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Excuse me. Just hold it there. Could you try to - it is a very difficult thing - thank you. MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, you were in this room and Stompie was being assaulted. The question that I am trying to ask is who started the assaults, how was he assaulted and for how long and in what manner? MR RICHARDSON I have not come to play chess here. I do not want to cry but this has charged me emotionally, because the things that we did as the Mandela Football Club, they are horrible, they are barbaric. There is a lot of things that we did and I am growing scared now to say some of the things. CHAIRPERSON We would request you to really stick to the points. This is a very emotional period for all of us. Could you please just tell us in detail, as to what happened and who started assaulting and can you please just answer your questions briefly because you have described in detail as to what you did to Stompie. We just need the basis things, you need not go into full details with regard to this matter, because there are a lot of people listening and this is a very touching moment for all of us and we would just request you to stick to the basis points. MR RICHARDSON Chairperson, I respect you and I respect your decision. I believe that we have been coming here for the past six, seven, she has not been crying. And you usually admonish the people to keep quiet, I appreciate the job that you are doing, but when we switch off the lights, you are in your houses, you've got securities and bodyguards. We are in prison. Chairperson, I respect you, I revere you. I knew that if I talk about Stompie, Stompie's mother will cry, but I would like you to give me a chance to express myself fully because I haven't yet dropped my bombshell, I have bigger things coming. And when people start crying, this poses a problem for me because I haven't yet detailed whatever I did. Twosome Motawu usually says when days are dark, friends are few. I will request you Chairperson, because this is a very touching story, it touches me as well, the whole world knows what is happening. Even my children are missing me as much as Stompie's mother misses Stompie. You are threatening me that you can lay charges against me, there is nothing that I have done. You are listening to my story. Mrs Mandela is not going to cry and Joyce is crying. CHAIRPERSON I have requested you and we have listened to your plea, we are all having a difficulty and if you can, please try to meet us halfway. Try to give us the basics so that we can get to the root of the truth. Can you continue or would you like us to adjourn so that you can regain your composure? MR RICHARDSON No. Okay, you can continue to the other aspects. She will not forget that her child was killed in such a brutal manner. I killed Stompie under the instructions of Mommy. Mommy never killed anyone, but she used us to kill a lot of people. She does not even visit us in prisons. She used us. CHAIRPERSON She will get an opportunity to come and express herself and answer to all the allegations that are being put to her, so you should not worry about Mommy, you should really worry about yourself. You should answers put to you. We will appreciate it if you can do that. MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Chairman. Where we were is that Mrs Mandela, the Football Team, Stompie and the others including Katiza Cebekhulu were all in a room. You said that he was being assaulted. Now, if I read from the notes, is it correct that the people that beat Stompie were Mrs Mandela, Katiza, Sledge and yourself? MR RICHARDSON Yes, but there are others. Everybody who was there participated as well as the other members of the Mandela United Football Club. MR RICHARD Then Sledge and you threw Stompie into the air and he fell to the ground and you kicked him, is that a summary of what you said? MR RICHARDSON Let me start with Kenny. Kenny was assaulted with fists by Mommy until I stopped Mommy. I took Kenny, I assaulted Kenny with fists and at that time that I was busy with Kenny, Mommy was grabbing another one. At some stage she actually grabbed one of the youths by the hair. Whilst we were busy sjamboking the others ones, others were busy with fists, kicking, it was a whole lot of commotion. MR RICHARD Right, now how long did this go on for? MR RICHARDSON This went on for about two hours. MR RICHARD For the sake of time, to paraphrase, what was said here goes as follows. To quote, we used a sjambok, shoes and a light cane, fists and so on, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is very true. MR RICHARD As a result of these beatings it came out that Stompie said that he regretted selling out MK guerillas, he prayed for mercy and asked to be taken home, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON That is correct. MR RICHARD And then after the two and a half hours of assaulting the youths and Stompie, you felt that it was enough and is it correct to say that the other three individuals, ie Kenny, Thabo and Pelo were also badly assaulted, but not as badly assaulted as Stompie? Is that correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD Then at approximately 21h30 that evening, you had supper which was brought to you by one Gogo? Correct? MR RICHARDSON I don't remember that part. MR RICHARD And Stompie by that stage was too badly injured to eat? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD And then what Sledge and you did was you gave them blankets and you, Sledge and Ronnie Skekoni slept with them. Is that correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD So, we get ourselves to the next morning. You went and saw Mrs Mandela, what report did you make to her. I can't lead you further? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. The following morning I went to Mommy to give her a report back. I told her that Stompie was worse off than the other kids, he had been badly injured and I wanted to take him back to his place. But I could see that Stompie was in a very bad shape. I realised that he was going to die anyway, and my opinion was that he should just be finished off. MR RICHARD Carry on. MR RICHARDSON I have got a problem. I don't trust, when the lights go off, I get scared. CHAIRPERSON Order please. MR RICHARDSON I am speaking the truth now. We were not supposed to take Stompie to Parys because I took a pen and gave it to Stompie to write his address. MR RICHARD Mr Richardson, you are going too fast now. The next morning, is it not true that you waited for Guybon Kubheka until about 18h30 that afternoon and he wanted information about the four people you had collected from the church? MR RICHARDSON That is true. MR RICHARD And what happened when you informed Guybon that evening that you had assaulted Stompie because he had sold out four Guerillas in Parys? MR RICHARDSON Guybon kicked Stompie as well as the other youths. But he kicked Stompie so severely, much more than the other youths. Each time he looked at Stompie, he would just kick him because he had sold the Guerillas. MR RICHARD And then that evening, did Sonwabo have any role to play, did he do anything, did he come? MR RICHARDSON Yes, Sonwabo did come. I related the story to him. He came into my room and I related the events of the previous day to him. When we got into my room, I pointed Stompie out and he still assaulted Stompie even further, even though he was weak and laying on the ground. He did not assault the other ones like he assaulted Stompie. Then he went out. He got into the house, the main house. MR RICHARD Now, the next morning, Stompie was alive and what was the condition of Kenny, Thabo and Pelo, that is Gabriel? MR RICHARDSON They were all injured because they had been severely assaulted, but Stompie was worse off. MR RICHARD Now, here it is said in your instructions that Mrs Mandela took the three of them to town with her and bought them some clothes and they came back at one o'clock. Do you remember that? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. She did that. They even came back to show me the clothes. She used to buy them similar clothes, that is khaki's. MR RICHARD Now, at 18h30 that evening Sonwabo joined you this time there was a discussion and a meeting, would you please tell us what happened? MR RICHARDSON A meeting was held and Sonwabo was actually putting pressure on me to carry out this instruction. He at some stage said, this is going to backfire. MR RICHARD This is now a few days after the first assault had commenced? There is a meeting that evening at 18h30 and I didn't ask what the conclusion was, I wanted to know what the contents of the meeting is. What was said at the meeting, who was at the meeting? MR RICHARDSON I don't remember this meeting you are referring to. Could you please give me a clue or tell me what meeting you are referring to. MR RICHARD The three had been taken to the shops to buy clothes. They had come back at approximately 13h00, that is one o'clock according to your instructions. They showed you the clothes, according to what you said. That afternoon at about 18h30 Sonwabo arrived and he asked you a question, what was that question? MR RICHARDSON How is this connected, Sonwabo wasn't in the picture and Kenny is not in the picture. The people who were bought clothes, were only two youths, Thabiso and Filly. I don't know what happened to Kenny. MR RICHARD No, it is not about Kenny at all. It is that afternoon and according to your instructions, Sonwabo told me, I am reading, are you prepared to kill Stompie and there was a discussion, a meeting. I can't ask any more questions before I must leave it. Did that happen or didn't it? MR RICHARDSON I don't remember. Maybe it will come back to me at a later stage, but I don't remember the meeting you are referring me to. MR RICHARD (Inaudible) MR RICHARDSON That is correct, that I should kill Stompie. MR RICHARD At which meeting was that instruction given? Who was at the discussion to give that instruction? MR RICHARDSON Mommy was present, Sledge, myself. Mommy asked as to whether I trusted Sledge and I said yes, I do. And she asked Sledge whether Sledge trusted me and he said yes. And Mommy said we should do one thing. MR RICHARD Right, then Sledge and you did something. Where did you go and what did you do? MR RICHARDSON We had been given a task and an instruction. We went to look for a place. As you go towards Noordgesig, we went to look at a certain hill or a mountain next to Noordgesig and we saw some rocks there. The place was next to the railway line from New Canada towards Noordgesig. We saw that secluded spot there. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now you came home late that night and went to bed, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now, the next morning, did you do what was planned, yes or no? MR RICHARDSON Yes, we carried out our plan. MR RICHARD Was it possible to do that job because according to the instructions, at that stage had visitors? MR RICHARDSON Yes, there were a lot of visitors, there would be the Crisis Committee as well as people who had just come to investigate. Mommy would hide me at times and at times she would ultimately have to call me. MR RICHARD Isn't it correct that the evening that Frank Chikane, Sister Bernard Makobe and others came to visit, you postponed the job, correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD Then, later that evening, there was a discussion between yourself and Mrs Mandela and to what effect was that? MR RICHARDSON We were talking with regard to Stompie, the Crisis Committee and we were sceptical of the Crisis Committee and she expressed her concern that the Crisis Committee was going to discover the presence of the youths in her yard. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, did you not go to bed that evening and leave whatever was going to be done, to the next day? MR RICHARDSON That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, the next morning, you sent the rest of the people into the house and you and some others did something, what was that? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. We did something very bad, that was myself and Sledge. We spoke to the rest of the comrades who were in Diepkloof extension. We said Mommy was very ill and she feels better when you sing freedom songs or slogans. We called in the other comrades to come and sing for Mommy. When they got into the house, they started the slogan as well as the freedom songs. Mommy was sitting in the sitting room and I said to Stompie, today I am taking you home. I looked around and realised that there wasn't anyone in the yard. I took Stompie with, Sledge followed me. I had a pair of garden shears and gave it to Sledge because I had to help Stompie along, because he was very ill, very weak and he looked quite delirious. We dragged Stompie along. MR RICHARD Then, you reached Noordgesig and were facing a railway line. What is that railway line known as? MR RICHARDSON No, we did not go towards the railway line, we went to Noordgesig. We went to the mountain in Noordgesig. That is where we took Stompie. That is the most painful part. I don't know whether I should proceed. I did the same with him, I slaughtered him. I slaughtered him like a goat. We made him lay on his back and I put garden shears through his neck and the garden shears penetrated to the back of his neck and I made some cutting motion. Sledge also had his own pair of garden shears and he cut Stompie's neck. He really wanted to make sure that we cut his throat. MR RICHARD The technique that you used with the shears, was it as if you were slicing a loaf of bread or a stabbing motion? MR RICHARDSON It was a stabbing motion, not the cutting motion. But Sledge had the duty to finish off. I just let the garden shears penetrate through the neck. MR RICHARD What did you do next? Carry on. MR RICHARDSON We stood there for quite a long time. We wanted Stompie's body to be cool, because we told ourselves that we were committing the perfect crime. We watched the cars passing by but we were not very concerned, because we were away from the glaring lights of the cars. Ultimately we saw that Stompie had died. We went to the river, we washed ourselves, we washed the traces of blood off. We proceeded to Diepkloof because we still had this pair of garden shears and we were taking it back to Mommy's house. We screwed it together once more, we put it in the garage, Mommy's garage. MR RICHARD Now, before I proceed to Ikaneng. Is it not true that the truth about what happened was that you received a report from Ms Falati, you abducted the four individuals, serious assaults happened which got out of control. The Crisis Committee was then asking for the youths and because Stompie Seipei was so badly beaten, it was decided between you, Sonwabo, Guybon and Mrs Mandela to kill Stompie Seipei so as to cover up what had happened? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD And then the further events took place and that is the Crisis Committee was successful in applying sufficient pressure to obtain the release of the others, but there were still problems. And that was that certain individuals might actually reveal the truth? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR RICHARD And I know the Commission is very, very short of time, so when we proceed to Lerothodi Ikaneng, was it not true that he was one of such individuals who was in danger of revealing what was happening and what was going on? DR BORAINE Just before the witness answers, Mr Richard are you able to give any idea of how long you are going to be? MR RICHARD If I must proceed through the Ikaneng transaction in the same detail as the witness has wanted to describe it, it will be a long time. I am trying to summarise it and I am doing something which I should not do and putting the most leading questions of the lot. DR BORAINE I understand that entirely, but you do appreciate that we have a lot of other work to do. MR RICHARD That is why Chairperson, that I at this stage is going to put the Ikaneng part of the story in this manner. DR BORAINE Thank you. MR RICHARD Mr Richardson, you were present when Lerothodi Ikaneng gave evidence, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON I don't know whether I can ask the Chairperson for permission to summarise, because I wanted to point out that Mommy did not kill Stompie, she did not stab Stompie. I killed Stompie in accordance with Mrs -Mandela's instructions. Now we are hopping around all over the place. I want to be able to summarise this matter and now we are passing on to another issue, without me having finished whatever I wanted to say about Stompie. I want Mommy to take the stand. Now, I can see that Mommy is being defended. Mommy did not stab Stompie. According to this book, it is alleged that Mommy stabbed thrice. DR BORAINE Can I just interrupt you for a moment. Mr Richardson, I have listened very carefully to you and you have told your story very well. Your story has been told as to what happened and that you have told us, this Commission, that you killed Stompie, so there is no doubt in our minds. You have been very helpful, you have told the story. We would like to move on because there is other information that we would like to hear from you. Could we move on please. Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Now, I will restate the question. You were present yesterday when Mr Ikaneng gave evidence, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I was. MR RICHARD For the sake of time, may it not be said that what he said corresponds in substance, not in detail, with what you wish to say? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I was listening to Ikaneng. I am not going to answer any questions with regard to Ikaneng. If you want to ask me a question, direct it to me. MR RICHARD The question is, at the end of the day, is it not correct that you and certain individuals took Mr Ikaneng to a certain place and there an attempt was made on his life? MR RICHARDSON That is true. MR RICHARD Now, the events that led to the taking of Mr Ikaneng to that particular place, we don't need to cover them in detail, they were described yesterday and that the only thing that we need to do today, is to concentrate on what happened once you had him where you wanted to take him. MR RICHARDSON We were training at Diepkloof extension, I was training the Football Club members together with others. And some of them were injured and I just wanted to see whether they had recovered from their injuries. I got a message from Zinzi that she wanted to see me and it was quite urgent. The person came to me he said his name was Buick. I went to Zinzi at Diepkloof extension and Zinzi told me that Lerothodi had been injured at the supermarket and she gave me money to go and see what was happening. I was still in the tracksuit that I was wearing earlier on. I took Kenny, Pelo, Thabiso, Isaac - there were five of us. We boarded a taxi to Orlando West and ran towards the supermarket, but we couldn't find Lerothodi there. I told them to wait for me and I ran towards a short street which had a passage. I was looking for Lerothodi and I proceeded to Muzimuhle when I couldn't get him at his place. We discovered him next to the railway station at Muzimuhle station. MR RICHARD From that place, is it not correct that he was grabbed, two of you held him by the hands, two by the legs and you took him down to the ground? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. We grabbed Lerothodi and took him with. Lerothodi knows me very well, but he did not know the rest of the group. He asked me to leave him so that he can walk all on his own. I told him that Mommy wanted to see him. And I could see that he was scared. We went into a certain house at Muzimuhle, that is Lerothodi's girlfriend's place. I spoke to Moses and said he should look out so that he can confirm that nobody was following us. I went back into the house, took Lerothodi. I used his other name, soccer name, Master, and Lerothodi was asking me as to why we were taking the route that we took. He asked me please, don't kill me. And Isaac had the pair of garden shears. Lerothodi managed to escape and we chased him and got hold of him. Isaac was having this pair of shears. We started assaulting Lerothodi. We took him just underneath the bridge, next to the railway station. We were not going to the Stompie spot. We grabbed him. I instructed Pelo to hold one hand and each and every one of them had a part to grab and get hold of. They threw him down to the ground. And they tried to stab him, but I said they weren't doing a professional job. I took the pair of garden shears. I stabbed Lerothodi on the neck and when I pulled the pair of garden shears, I could see Lerothodi gasping for breath and blood was coming out of his mouth. I realised that he wasn't yet dead. We took him and threw him into a shallow grave. I gave Pelo and Thabiso some money and instructed them to go to Diepkloof. Kenny and myself took the opposite direction. MR RICHARD Is it correct that you got disturbed by the coming of a police vehicle and you left the scene? MR RICHARDSON That is true. MR RICHARD And you went back to the house and there you met Mrs Mandela and Ms Zinzi Mandela and you made a report. What was that? MR RICHARDSON I told Mommy that I had killed Lerothodi. Mommy embraced me and said my boy, my boy. MR RICHARD You have outlined in brief and in some detail, depending on which incident we were speaking of, that you did some of the most horrendous and horrific acts that a person could imagine doing, is that not correct? MR RICHARDSON That is very true. I don't know where to start expressing myself. But I will try to be very brief and say it would have been better for me to have died because I wouldn't be sitting here, talking all this that I am saying. It should be a different story that the punishment that Richardson got, was commensurate with the crime that he committed. Because I believe that the person who lost the most, is Stompie's mother. There isn't much that I can say. I was convicted at the High court and there wasn't a single person and that is why I say when days are dark, friends are few. I was taken to Ben Schoeman. MR RICHARD Mr Richardson, it is correct that you fully accept that you were guilty of all the various offences that we have sketched and that the conviction and sentence that you received for the killing of Stompie Seipei was correct and proper in your respect? A simple yes or no? MR RICHARDSON I do not know how to answer that question. I think if you get my record from the condemned cell, I was singing a song, Lord have mercy on me, forgive me my sins. That is the song that I was singing. MR RICHARD The question that we must ask is would these evil and dreadful deeds that you have committed, all of them, have not happened if it were not for the political context of the time and particularly the instructions you received? MR RICHARDSON The things that I did, if a person says they were within a political context, I think you would have to explain, because I was told when I appeared in court that I am a criminal, I am a common law prisoner and that was written down in my file. Now, I don't understand what you are telling me when you say it has got a political context. I am in the D-group in prison. MR RICHARD The political context ... (intervention) DR BORAINE I think we must move as fast as we can Mr Richard. It is taking a long time. This is not an amnesty hearing. MR RICHARD No it is short, three questions. MR RICHARDSON I am not wasting time. I am still oppressed in prison. I don't call myself a politician, I call myself a soccer star. MR RICHARD Mr Richardson, what I am saying is is not the reason for you killing these various people that they were labelled or named or pointed out to be informants? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is very true. MR RICHARD Now, the next question, which is my last, who instructed you to kill each and every one of them and who instructed you to abduct the particular young men and youth at the end of December of 1988? MR RICHARDSON The first person was Mommy. The second one was Sonwabo. MR RICHARD And if you had not received these instructions, is it not correct to say that you would not have done what you did? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I wouldn't have done that. Even my record shows that I do not have any previous convictions. MR RICHARD Mr Chairman, I think it is Mr Hanif's turn. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Vally. MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair. I want to start off with the incidents you have described. Firstly, where did you get to the bottom, exactly who was involved in the assaults, tortures and subsequent murder of Mr Stompie Seipei. Firstly can you tell me specifically who was involved in the assault on the four youths, and if you give me the nick names, please give me the full names of people that you do know. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY What are you looking for Mr Richardson. Let us go on, you talked about Genl. Scorpion I think that's what you've said. Was he one of the persons who were party to this assault? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY All right, you give us names, you've talked about Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, you've talked about yourself. Please tell us who else was present there, and participating in the assaults? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Can you recall any more names? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY What was the Jabu Sithole who you mentioned was present, - what was his nick name? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Let's go on, the Jabu Sithole you've mentioned. Was it the same Jabu Sithole who gave evidence before this hearing? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Is his nick name Javis? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY In all the incidents that you've mentioned thus far, did you ever act on your own in committing these crimes? Were you always acting on instructions? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY You mentioned to the (indistinct)Committee . Who chaired the meetings of the (indistinct)Committee? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY So you're saying that this (indistinct) Committee was an ad hoc one which would be appointed from time to time by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Is that correct? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Who determined the punishment if you found someone guilty in this (indistinct) Committee? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY At this time, were you employed elsewhere, or were you full time at the Madikizela-Mandela household? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Are you talking after your housewives attacks when the two ANC guerillas were killed in your house? Are you talking about that period? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Can you advise me to addition to the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei and the assault on the three young men, as well as the murder of Kuki Zwane. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Are you aware of any other murders that were committed as a result of a decision taken by the Crisis Committee? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Do you know anything about the murder of Thulani Dlamini? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Who gave the instruction for the murder to be carried out? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Are you aware of who actually performed the task of killing Thulani Dlamini? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Let me ask you about the attack on the Chili household when T....... Ntsomi, I believe she was an 14 year old girl who was shot dead. Are you aware of that attack? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Were you already in prison at the time? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Can you briefly tell us what transpired, why was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house attacked at that time? Do you know specifically why the house was attacked? Can you tell me. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY How was this monitored? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY What I want to know is, if I'm a young person, say a young man, and I arrive there and say: I've come from KwaMashu, I'm running away from the police, I need to stay here. Could I just walk in and be allowed to stay in that house or in the back room? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Would a person who wanted to come and stay at the house, be checked out to see if they were informer, or whether the story was true, or were anyone allowed into the house at any time, and I'm talking about the back rooms as well? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY I want to cover some new item, but I just want to cover some of the items you've already given evidence on. Firstly regarding the issue of the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei, and the abduction of the other young men. Who specifically gave you the instructions to fetch the four young men from the Methodist Manse? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Secondly, regarding Mr Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Mrs Madikizala-Mandela says, the last time she saw these two young men, was when she dropped them off with the two ANC guerillas were staying at your house. What's your response to that? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Do you agree that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has nothing to do with the death of these two young boys? Do you maintain your story you gave us earlier as to how they were killed and on who's instructions? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Let's go on to the issue of Dr Asvat. We have medical records showing that you've visited Dr Asvat's surgery on the day before he was killed, and on the day he was actually murdered. Do you confirm that? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Can you tell us why you went to see him? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Did your visits to Dr Asvat have anything to do with his murder? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Were you (indistinct)the scene for the person who actually carried out his murder? Were you acting as a scout, were you on a recognisance mission to Dr Asvat's rooms for the presidents who actually carried out the murder? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY At the time that the youngsters who had been kidnapped from the Methodist manse were at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. Were they at any stage examined by Dr Asvat? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Are you saying you do not remember, or are you saying it did not happened? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Regarding Kuki Zwane, when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked at her section 29 inquiry, the second one, page 154 , and she was asked . Do you know Kuki Zwane? Her first response was, Who is this? I continued, Kuki Zwane. Her response was, Who is Kuki Zwane?. I continued, she's also known as Priscilla Massell, or Masio. Do you know her at all? Her response was, ..oh, there is I think. I recognised that name. It was included in the allegations that were made to my daughters. That was one of the killings I heard of for the first time, and that girl had been killed and information to Fivas, it was one of the names that were mentioned at the time and I heard for the first time that she was dead then. I continued, Do you know her at all? Her response was,I knew her vaguely as one of the children who were in and out of my house. I cannot remember her. I asked: Who was she friendly with,..and I continued why was she coming to your house? Her response was: They visited each other all the time, I mean those boys were visited by all sorts of people. I also mentioned that Kuki Zwane had gone to see Dr Asvat with Katiza. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela denied that. I asked was Kuki Zwane a personal friend of your daughter? Her answer was: No, not to my knowledge. I asked her, when was the first time you heard of Kuki Zwane's death? The response was. I heard when my daughters were called by their father, and they were told that that was one of the deaths. It was not only the Asvat killers who were supposed to be mentioned then. This particular name was also one of the names. Fivas was suppose to put all this deaths together, including the death of this child. I asked her. Jerry Richardson alleges that he was responsible for the murder of Kuki Zwane , and he was acting on your instructions. What is your comments on that? Her response was: I heard for the first time from you, not even that information which had reached us at the time identified Richardson as a killer. I was merely told that that child had been killed, and that would make it possible for me to be implicated in her death. I heard for the first time from you people that Richardson was a killer. My question: Was Kuki Zwane ever a resident in your house? No, no girl was a resident at my house, it was only the boys at the back. Now these were the answers that we got from Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela when we had the in camera enquiry. My first question is: Did Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to the best of your knowledge know Kuki Zwane? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Just very brief about Kuki Zwane and Bothile. You mentioned that you people went twice to Brandford to look for Kuki Zwane and Bothile. Your answers were not to clear at that point. Are you saying that no one was allowed to leave the football club without permission? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY What would happen to a person who left the Soccer Club. Would there be any violent consequences to his action, would he be assaulted, would he be threatened with death, or would he just be spoken to? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, the witness has the impression that you're not listening to his answers, because when he is answering, you are consulting. I think you should show him the courtesy of listening to his answers. MR VALLY Mr Richardson, you can be rest assured, I'm listening to you very carefully through my head phones. I'm just preparing my next question. Let's go on, I want to go back to the attack on your house by the police when Serg. Pretorius, Mr (indistinct) and (indistinct) as you refer to them, were killed. Now, is it true that Serg. Pretorius was in fact, what they called, you handler. That you informing to him? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY I asked you a question, whether you were a police informer and the person whom to you were supplying your information to, was Serg. Pretorius. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) CHAIRPERSON (No translation) MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Will you answer the question please. Were you a police informer or not? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Did you give information to the police during any of the time that you were staying at Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house regarding the activities that are taking place in her house? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Did you at any stage give any information to the police regarding the activities that were taking place at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Let's start off with Serg. Pretorius? Did you give him any information? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY So he just casually every now and then gave you a lift to Ellis Park and from Ellis Park. You were just a friend of his? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY You promised to give him any information? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Did you ever deliver on you promise? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY What information did you give him? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY What I need to know from you.. CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Just wait, could you please just, order please, order please! I don't want to clear this room. When I say order, I've said this before, when I say order, I expect you to keep quiet. If you don't want to keep quiet, you have the perfect right to be outside of this hall. I'm not going to have us disturb by yourselves, those of you that would want to obey my request for order. I'll say this just once again. If I say order, I mean, please keep quiet. If you are unable to do so, don't let me ask that the hall be emptied. Do you want to conclude this part of your question? I think that we should probably break for lunch. MR VALLY: Archbishop, I expect to be another five minutes. Either we could break now, or we can finish? CHAIRPERSON: Let's complete this. MR VALLY: Thank you very much. There were two people present. You and Serg. Pretorius. Serg. Pretorius is now dead as we know. You are with us. Can you please tell us what information you gave Serg. Pretorius? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY: Did you see Mr Erasmus and Mr Moodley at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Please answer the question. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY What were they doing there? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Are you referring to Mr Moodley who gave evidence at this hearing? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Let's go on. Did you gave information to the police regarding the presence of Mr (indistinct) and Mr (indistinct) at your house, namely the persons you called (indistinct)? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY My question is this, you demanded money from Mr Moodley, before you gave him any information on the basis that you were owed money for informing the police about the presence of Debogo and Sipho on your premises? To whom did you give this information to? Was it Serg. Pretorius? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY: Did you give information to Serg. Pretorius regarding the presence of Thobogo and Sipho on you premises? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Now Serg. Pretorius was shot dead in your kitchen, at the same time that Thobogo and Sipho shot dead in your kitchen. I need to know this, when you were arrested when the police attacked your house. Were there a large number of police present at the attack? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY So if there were so many police present at your house and if they were aware that there were two trained armed guerillas in your house, why was it that Serg. Pretorius was allowed to enter the house alone where he was shot dead? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Why is that? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Please come back to the question, Mr Richardson. We have had complaints from Serg. Pretorius's sister. There is something very strange that took place at your house. The house is surrounded by a large number of policemen. Yet one policemen who happens to be your handler, go in alone and is found dead on the kitchen floor. How did this happened? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Were you present when this attack on your house took place? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY What did you see? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Did you see Serg. Pretorius enter your house? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Are you aware of any reason why Serg. Pretorius entered your house alone when the house was surrounded by a large number of policemen? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Will you please tell us the reason? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Please, Mr Richardson. You've already told us you informed the police that there were two armed trained guerillas in your house. You've already told us that amongst other people, Serg. Pretorius was your handler. You've already told us that there were enough policemen to fill Orlando stadium who surrounded your house. Why did Serg. Pretorius entered your house alone? You were outside with your Valiant as you said. There has been a suggestion that Serg. Pretorius was silent. This is a complaint that we've got from his sister which complaint to our Human Right Violation Committee. Do you believe that it's possible that Serg. Pretorius was silenced because he knew too much from the information you gave him? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) CHAIRPERSON: We have had a very long five minutes. Okay Mr Richardson, thank you. MR VALLY: I should may be we should take a break and have a few questions to ask after lunch. CHAIRPERSON: We will resume at two o'clock. COMMISSION ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No let's try again now. Order. Thank you. Mr Hanif. Sorry just before you start. We are clearly moving at a particular pace here after Mr Richardson, we have three police officers, two on recall and we think coming back at the end of those three witnesses, who should call it a day, and have Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela start tomorrow at half past eight, and before I ask Hanif, I had intended welcoming my - our colleague Dumisa Ntsebeza, because it is special, I mean, although we have got so many things, he has been living under a very heavy cloud with the kind of allegations that were made against him and we obviously expected that Judge Goldstone would vindicate him, but we needed to have that independent vindication and the Dumisa, where are you? All right, when he comes, I will have to repeat myself. Right, Hanif. MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop. Mr Richardson, we were busy with the attack on your house on the 9th of November 1988. MR CHAIRPERSON: Look here, we start at two o'clock, but because it's a special day for you, I wanted this hearing to share our joy at the vindication that you have been given, and the Commission been given by the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry, and we welcome you back, and I'm glad that cloud has been lifted. I will clap you, just a small clap. Thank you. MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, were busy when your house was attacked on the 9th of November 1988, when the two ANC guerillas were killed as well as Serg. Pretorius. What I asked you was, whether you aware that Serg. Pretorius was killed in you kitchen, because he needed to be silenced. What is your response to that please? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Why would you say that? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Let's take this a bit further. You earlier mentioned that you were present at a meeting between Mr Paul Erasmus and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Can you give details of this meeting? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Mr Richardson, can you tell us when this meeting was suppose to have taken place, and where? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Was it before you were arrested, after your house was attacked, or was it after? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Mr Richardson, you have already given us evidence as to when your met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, when you were employed as a coach for the football club. You indicated when that took place. I believe it was late 1986. Can you tell us when was this meeting suppose to have taken place, at least give us a year, if there were more than one meetings, please indicate that to us. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Where did the meetings take place? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Which house was this, in Orlando, or in Diepkloof? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY You've mentioned in one of this meetings that Mr Erasmus pointed you out as an informer to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Did she confront you with this issue? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY I want to give me specific issues which you aware of, which were discussed. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Are you aware of any other issues that were discussed between Mr Erasmus and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela other than the fact that he pointed you out as an informer to her? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Let's move on to Mr Moodley. What's your basis for saying that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mr Moodley even before you were in prison for the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Is that the basis for your allegation regarding Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Moodley. Something that Mr Moodley allegedly told you whilst you were in prison, and this was after the trial when you were charged for the murder on Mr Stompie Seipei. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY This was in 1995. This is I say 1995, because this is when he in terms of our information saw you in prison regarding the issue of Dr Asvat, as well as Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala disappearance. Is there any other time before 1995 which give you a reason to make this allegation. Is there any other incident which took place before the time he saw you in prison? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY I just want to get this name clear. You said, Johnny de Baird. Johnny Bird. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Johnny Bird. Fine. Did you ever see Mr Moodley as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY MR RICHARDSON: Yes. MR VALLY Which house, Diepkloof or Orlando? MR RICHARDSON: I saw him at Orlando-West. MR VALLY Did you see them having a conversation? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Did you over hear the conversation? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Can you tell us what they were talking about, and be specific please. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY So you heard this conversation between Mr Moodley and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about a trip to Transkei? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Did you hear any other conversation? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Let's go on to Sonwabo. Do you know what happened to him? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Are you aware that he was killed? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY You mentioned that you knew Mr Johannes Mbatha also know as Themba. Do you recall that? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Mr Mbatha made a statement while he was detained in terms of section 29. I will read you what he said about you and the Stompie murder, and I'm starting to quote. This is from paragraph 30 of the documents we have handed to Mr Semenya, Page 7: After the Stompie affair received media coverage, Jerry Richardson, Soccer coach reported to W Mandela that he and a man called Sledge had killed and buried Stompie. At the time of the reports, I was present myself, Jerry, Sledge and W Mandela was in the study of her house when Jerry reported this to Winnie. W Mandela was upset and wanted to know from Jerry why he had not told her before, and after she had told him not to take Stompie away. What is your response to this statement, allegedly made by Themba? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Are you saying that this statement is true, or not true? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY So, in terms of this statement, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not aware that you killed Stompie, and was upset that you had not told her before, after she had told you not to take Stompie away. Is that true? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Please, Mr Richardson, a minute ago you told me it was true, and no you're saying it's a lie. Do you want to read this statement yourself, and want to give me a clear answer, whether this allegation allegedly made by Themba, I say allegedly, because this is a statement taken from him while you were detained in terms of Section 29. Do you want to read it yourself and give us a clear answer, whether this allegation is true or not true? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY I'll start off this quote: After the Stompie affair received media coverage, Jerry Richardson, Soccer coach, reported to W Mandela, that he and a man called Sledge, had killed and buried Stompie. At the time of this report, I was present myself, Jerry, Sledge and W Mandela was in the study of her house when this was reported to Winnie. W Mandela was upset, and wanted to know from Jerry why he had not told her before, and after she had told him not to take Stompie away. Let me break it up. He said you were present at a meeting. Themba, yourself, Sledge and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. You and a man called Sledge, reported to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that you have killed and buried Stompie. After your report, she was upset and wanted to know from you why you had not told her before, after she had told you not to take Stompie away. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY We know Themba is dead. I'm putting it to you, because he said you were at that meeting. Is his alleged report of that meeting, true, or not true? MR RICHARDSON (no translation) CHAIRPERSON Mr Richardson, (no translation) MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY If such a meeting take place where you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, in the presence of Themba, where you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about Stompie, in the presence of Themba. Let's go on to one last issue. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Let's go on to one last issue. In the trial involving yourself, you stated that at a present period in December, 1988, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not present at a house in Diepkloof when the whole issue of the kidnapping of the four young men from the manse, and the subsequent assaults took place. Do you still maintain the same story today, that you told the Court at the time of your trial? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Why did you tell the Court that at the time? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Why were you not free to talk in your own trial when you possibly facing a very long sentence, if not a death sentence, didn't you think you should talk the truth to save yourself? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) CHAIRPERSON Order please. I have asked for order! MR VALLY Is your evidence today, especially the evidence which is allegedly implicating Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and a number of criminal activities the truth, or merely an act of revenge, because you feel that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not paying you enough attention, whilst you were in prison? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR VALLY Is what you have told us today, the truth or not? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR VALLY Thank you Mr Richardson. No more questions. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Semenya. MR SEMENYA Thank you chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SEMENYA Mr Richardson, the amount of R10 000-00. How was that calculated? Was it R5 000-00 ahead of the killer? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA No, what I mean is, they were paying you money owed to you. Is that right? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA You haven't received the money. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) CHAIRPERSON Order please. Mr Richardson (no translation) MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA Mr Richardson, the security police owe you R10 000-00. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) MR SEMENYA Did you say to the security police, you will not co-operate unless they pay you ten thousand rand. MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA Was Serg. Pretorius your handler? MR RICHARDSON: Yes. MR SEMENYA What way you to receive that there were killers in your house? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA What in return were you to get for (indistinct) that information? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA Yes, that's what I'm asking. Is ten thousand rand calculated in terms of the number of people you sold out? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA What is so difficult? MR RICHARDSON: No translation. CHAIRPERSON: Order please. MR SEMENYA I'm referring to your discussion with Pretorius. Not to with Senior Superintendent Moodley. When you agree with Pretorius, would it be five thousand rand for a (indistinct) or not? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA But you just told us Mr Richardson, and I want to go forward, that you agree to that in exchange for that information you're going to be paid ten thousand rand. Am I right? MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) CHAIRPERSON Order please! Please can you co-operate with the Commission. You're no co-operating with him, but with us, because we are trying to - Please can you just understand, and it doesn't help you ... MR RICHARDSON No translation. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Richardson ... I have tried very hard can you just try to do that. Can you have another shot. MR SEMENYA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Richardson, you did tell us, did you not, that the amount of ten thousand rand was agreed between yourself and Pretorius in exchange for the information you gave him? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA Were you to get anything in exchange of giving Pretorius information about the killers? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA When did you, in terms of date become a police informant? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA When did you for the first time agreed to Pretorius that you gave him information in exchange of buying of cars? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA Are you able to give us the month? MR RICHARDSON March. MR SEMENYA You've also told us that Pretorius who was silenced, did you mean he was killed deliberately? MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR SEMENYA By whom? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA Are you saying there was a plan to kill Pretorius on that day in your house? MR RICHARDSON: Yes. MR SEMENYA Who has made that plan. MR RICHARDSON: No translation. MR SEMENYA Where was the plan made. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Semenya. You don't have to worry about .. MR RICHARDSON: (No translation) CHAIRPERSON Order, thank you! MR SEMENYA Where was the plan made Mr Richardson. MR RICHARDSON: No translation. MR SEMENYA Who was present when the plan was made to kill Pretorius? MR RICHARDSON HT Moodley. MR SEMENYA Who else? MR RICHARDSON: Erasmus. MR SEMENYA Who else? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA Were you in Pretoria when they made this plan? MR RICHARDSON No translation. MR SEMENYA It is 1995 when he tells you, or what year? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA But you are in prison this time, so did he tell you that they had made the plan in 1987 when this people got killed in your house? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR SEMENYA Let me try and cover with you what appears in your amnesty application. It appears there that you have killed (indistinct) in December of 1989. MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR SEMENYA Is that date correct? MR RICHARDSON (No translation) MR SEMENYA Is that date correct? MR RICHARDSON MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is it. MR SEMENYA And you killed Sono and Shabalala in October 1988, is that right? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON One can be mistaken. MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] MR RICHARDSON No English translation. MR SEMENYA Can I solicit your assistance in solving it then? According to this date, you killed Sono and Shabalala before the cadres are killed in your house. MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Did you kill them before Sergeant Pretorius was killed? MR RICHARDSON I bear no information as far as that is concerned. MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] did you kill them? MR RICHARDSON I have no information thereof. MR SEMENYA Have you applied for amnesty for the killing of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON Yes, I have applied for amnesty with regard to those. MR SEMENYA I must ask you Sir, did you kill them before Sergeant Pretorius was killed in your house? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Can you help us here? According to your evidence, anybody who is branded an informer is severely assaults and/or killed, is that right? - by the soccer team? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is right. MR SEMENYA And according to you, you have been branded an informer by Sonwabo, is that right? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] according to you, by Erasmus, is that right? - or Moodley, one of the two. MR RICHARDSON That is not complete, please mention all of them. MR SEMENYA Can you help me with the other people who branded you an informer? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Can you tell us more? MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA Did the members of the Mandela United Football Club assault you? MR RICHARDSON No, they never assaulted me. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA No, I thought you are saying that once somebody is called an informer they would be killed, how come you were not assaulted and/or killed by the members of the football team? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Let us talk about Cebekhulu for a little while. According to the evidence, Cebekhulu was also said to have been sodomised when he was brought to the house, is that right? MR RICHARDSON MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR SEMENYA And Pelo and some of them were severely assaulted for being sodomised - according to the allegation? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is so. MR SEMENYA Why was Cebekhulu not assaulted? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Why did you not assault Cebekhulu for allowing himself to be sodomised because that was the allegation against the rest? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Why did you allow Cebekhulu to assault the others then? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Was it - and you can correct me here, was it because you and him were giving information to the police? MR RICHARDSON Please repeat your question. MR RICHARDSON Was the reason that Cebekhulu was not assaulted, was because you and him were giving information to the police? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Order please MR SEMENYA I want to read you a section appearing in the notes by the police officers on page 16, there is a paragraph which is in Afrikaans and ...[inaudible] it says "Richardson is willing to indicate the place where Lolo was buried. According to him, he was murdered in a similar manner to that of Stompie Sepei and Cebekhulu had also been present" Did you tell the police that Cebekhulu was present when either Lolo was buried or Stompie was killed? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA This fanciful answer of yours - did you give this information to the police or not? MR RICHARDSON Do you mean Pretorius? MR SEMENYA Did you give this information to the police or not? MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA I will read to you again what appears on page 14 of the same document "According to Mr Richardson, he had been an informant for the former security police. At a certain stage he provided information to the security branch which indicated that two trained MK soldiers were hiding away at his home. A promise of R10.000-00 was then made to him should his information prove to be true. ...{inaudible] MR RICHARDSON MR RICHARDSON ...[inaudible] told us you said some of these things. It continues to say "Stompie Sepei visited him at home later on the same day, he also saw these two MK members" MR RICHARDSON I have no knowledge thereof. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Order please. MR RICHARD ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Mr Minister? DR BORAINE Which one? CHAIRPERSON Please just sit down, thank you. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Richardson ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Order please. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SEMENYA Was Stompie Sepei in your house on the day the two cadres were killed? MR RICHARDSON No, he never came to my house. MR SEMENYA Are you able to give us any reason why Colonel Hesslinga would say you said that to him? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON There are two or three seats up here in front. MR SEMENYA The report goes on to say "It was then generally accepted that Stompie had provided the information to the security branch and that that had been the main reason for the killing of Stompie" MR SEMENYA That the reason Stompie was killed was because he had given information to the security police. MR RICHARDSON I have no knowledge. MR SEMENYA That is not the reason. MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA You lack knowledge of what? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON I know why Stompie was killed. MR SEMENYA Did you say this to the police though? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA If they have it the way they do, they would have been quoting you correctly? MR RICHARDSON I could quote them right or wrong and refer them to my records in the Court of Law. MR SEMENYA Earlier in your evidence though, you say that there were two young men that came to your house before Lolo and Sibuniso, is that right? MR RICHARDSON Please repeat your question? MR SEMENYA Earlier in your evidence you say that there were two boys - as you call them, who came to your before Lolo and Sibuniso. MR RICHARDSON Yes, there were two boys who came. MR SEMENYA One of them was Stompie, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Who were they? MR RICHARDSON Those are the two that I knew and, that I spoke to. I heard ..[inaudible] telling me that one of those boys is his brother - pointing at one of the boys - the two, Lolo and Shabalala. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON That will please me. MR SEMENYA Do you recognise that statement Sir? MR RICHARDSON I was double-checking on the thumb print. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON I saw the thumb print. MR SEMENYA Is the statement yours Sir? MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA So you mean the thumb print is not yours? MR RICHARDSON You see, I want you to say that so I can deny it. MR SEMENYA Is the thumb print yours Sir? MR RICHARDSON No, it is not my thumb print. MR SEMENYA So, the statement is not yours? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Can I just find out from yourselves, was this a statement that Mr Richardson gave? MR PIGOU MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Yes, but does he recall or can he recognise the statement? MR PIGOU Chair, perhaps I can help - page 4 of the statement and perhaps we can show this to Mr Richardson, there is a signature which says: "Jerry" on it - perhaps if we can show that to him. MR RICHARDSON The signature is almost close to mine. CHAIRPERSON Can you show him a copy of the particular statement and ...[inaudible] Do you remember submitting a statement to Colonel Dempsey? MR RICHARDSON From 1989 I submitted many statements. CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON Colonel Dempsey once accompanied me to the wedding ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No English translation. MR RICHARDSON No English translation. CHAIRPERSON MR PIGOU CHAIRPERSON What is the date there Mr Semenya? MR RICHARDSON 1988. CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Is that the day on which you were arrested - 20th February 1989? Do you remember submitting such a statement? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Do you remember which date you were arrested on? MR RICHARDSON I was arrested on the 19th of February 1989. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, and then on the 20th ... No English translation. MR RICHARDSON No English translation. CHAIRPERSON Is that the statement or not? MR RICHARDSON Yes, it is from him, it is the one. CHAIRPERSON Is it the statement from Captain Dempsey? You see, even the signature that you say is almost like yours, it is yours and the thumb print is yours as well. MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON That is the statement Mr Semenya is referring to. MR SEMENYA On page 3 of the statement you give an answer at the top of the page and you say "The players were then arrested by the police, subsequently I did not train them at any time" MR RICHARDSON That is correct. MR SEMENYA And you were no longer a coach? MR RICHARDSON I was still a coach. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON That is so, they were arrested. MR SEMENYA In the statement you go and you are asked "Do you know James Sepei, Stompie"? - Answer: "Yes I know him" You said this, did you not? MR RICHARDSON That is so, I know it. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA No, but you killed him so you must know. MR RICHARDSON That is true. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA On your amnesty application you say this about Miss Zwane, you say Was it you or Killer who slit her throat? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON We are talking about a dead person and about the souls that we took out from a person. MR SEMENYA I lost your answer there Sir. MR RICHARDSON We killed Kuki. MR SEMENYA Who slit her throat, is it you or Killer? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA So your amnesty application is untrue, is that right? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON There is nothing like that. MR SEMENYA Why would Colonel Hesslinga say you said it? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA And in the same breath it is recorded here "Jerry also informed me that he had not yet been able to make contact with Mrs Falati but as soon as he should manage to make contact with her, he would arrange for us to meet with her and talk to her" Did you say that part to the Colonel? MR RICHARDSON MR PIGOU MR SEMENYA Thank you. Would you have said that to Colonel Kruger? MR RICHARDSON Please repeat it. MR SEMENYA "Jerry in addition informed me that he had not yet been able to contact Mrs Falati" Did you say that to Kruger? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Chairperson, the letter is in Zulu and we have attempted to get it translated and copies made. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SEMENYA Are you able to identify the letter? CHAIRPERSON Have we got copies here? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA In one of the paragraphs - translated here, you say the following I see you are laughing at me. MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Why do you call Xoliswa "My Mrs Xoliswa and my daughter"? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA "My Mrs Xoliswa"? MR RICHARDSON You see Mr Semenya, you know what, when you are chewing your gum you use both gums and you use both cheeks - she visited me when I was faced with death and she was with another girl whom she introduced to me as a comrade and recently she came to Leeuwkop Prison. MR SEMENYA Would I be correct or wrong to infer that the letter suggests you had a relationship with Miss Falati? MR RICHARDSON I really do not know. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Order please, order. Order please. MR RICHARDSON Mr Semenya, are you satisfied or do you still want me to carry on about Falati? CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON Thank you Mr Commissioner. MR SEMENYA Again it appears in the same line "My Xoliswa Falati and my daughter" Are you referring to - let me ask it differently, who are you referring to when you say - "Your daughter"? MR SEMENYA According to Mr Moodley - Senior Superintendent Moodley - maybe let me just ...[indistinct] "The body of Kuki Zwane was amongst injuries, with a bullet wound" MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA If he tells us that the body of Kuki Zwane was found with a bullet wound, would he be correct? MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA Now, do you seriously know where the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala are hidden? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I know, I can take you there. INTERPRETER MR SEMENYA Why would you hit Senior Superintendent Moodley now? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Why would you hit him? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Would you hit him at the instruction of Mrs Mandela? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA You tell us that you are involved with a highjacking of a bakery with Katiza Cebekhulu. MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON That is correct. MR SEMENYA What year? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Was it an instruction of Mrs Mandela? MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA So, you were involved in criminal conduct on your own ...[intervention] MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR SEMENYA Without having obtained the instructions of Mrs Mandela? MR RICHARDSON Yes. MR SEMENYA What other acts of criminal activity did you commit which were not instructed by her? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Order please, order. MR SEMENYA I have listened to your evidence carefully and on more than three occasions you were asked whether your conduct was politically inspired and you vehemently said no, you were just associated with soccer and no politics, is that right? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Why do you apply for amnesty? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Order, order please. Please just settle - there is some honesty. MR SEMENYA So, would your luck be improved by for instance, stating that you were doing this on the instruction of Mrs Mandela, would that improve your luck? MR RICHARDSON No English translation. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Order. Mr Semenya, can I just find out how much more you have? MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA I understand. MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA Was your answer that mentioning Mrs Mandela would improve your luck? - as the person who would have given instructions. MR RICHARDSON Could you please return those photos that I gave to you. Can you see the people who are in those photos, Ronnie Skekune and Shoes? CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON I beg your forgiveness Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I want to put it again so that - try to answer the question. MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA According to the information of Mamasela, the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala were incinerated. MR RICHARDSON Excuse me? INTERPRETER Could the speaker repeat? MR SEMENYA Could it be true? DR BORAINE MR SEMENYA No, this is the information from Mr Mamasela. DR BORAINE MR SEMENYA DR BORAINE Thank you. Mr Semenya, did you take a statement from Mr Mamasela when he was in consultation with you and if so, would it be possible for the Commission to get hold of that? MR SEMENYA Chairperson no, unfortunately I have hand written notes, I did not take a statement from him. DR BORAINE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA Well, my notes will be privileged Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SEMENYA Would that information be correct or incorrect Sir? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA I want to finally read you one of your statements. May you be shown a statement dated the 28th of July 1997 May the witness be shown the statement ...[intervention] MR VALLY MR SEMENYA It must be a statement given to the members of the TRC, dated ...[intervention] MR VALLY Whose statement is that? MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON Do you see the statement before you? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I can see it Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is it yours? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] to read a phrase in it? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] his property? MR RICHARDSON No English translation. CHAIRPERSON No English translation. MR RICHARDSON No English translation. CHAIRPERSON Just hold onto them, thank you. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Maybe just to lead my reading of this statement, which persons - as a member of the Mandela Football Club as you put it, were killed first? - person or persons? MR RICHARDSON Could you please repeat. MR SEMENYA ...[inaudible] that you killed in your life? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA You no longer know who you killed first in your life? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA MR RICHARDSON No. MR SEMENYA What was your answer? MR RICHARDSON MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, we will take the adjournment until ...[inaudible] COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JERRY RICHARDSON (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Strictly 5 minutes, strictly no compassion whatsoever. Kindly settle, thank you very much. Mr Soller? MR SOLLER Mr Commissioner, Peter Soller on behalf of Mr Mbatha. CHAIRPERSON MR SOLLER CHAIRPERSON Just switch on your - thank you. MR RICHARDSON Yes, I do. MR SOLLER MR RICHARDSON Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] please. MR SOLLER Mr Richardson, do you know a lady by the name of Mrs Phumlile Dlamini? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON Are you all right now? MR SOLLER Thank you Mr Chairperson, but I have no further questions to ask. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SOLLER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Miller? MR MILLER Thank you Chairperson, just a couple of questions - sorry, the name is Michael Miller. Just a couple of questions Mr Richardson. Firstly, I appeared last week for a gentleman by the name of Jabu Sithole who you have referred to in your evidence, you say that Jabu Sithole was arrested and charged together with you, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR MILLER For what - the murder of Stompie? MR RICHARDSON MR MILLER MR RICHARDSON MR MILLER Where did he live? Did he live in the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MILLER Well, sorry Chairperson. MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR MILLER Now, I just want to finally ask you a couple of questions about Tulani Dlamini whom I also appear for. Now, you are aware that Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat was killed by Dlamini and by Mbatha, is that correct? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct, I do know that. MR MILLER Were you at any time - prior to the murder of Doctor Asvat, party to any plans to murder him or did you hear such plans being discussed? MR RICHARDSON MR MILLER MR RICHARDSON No. MR MILLER Who introduced Dlamini and Mbatha to Mrs Mandela, do you know? MR RICHARDSON MR MILLER Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Miss Sita? MRS SITA Mr Richardson, my client John Morgan testified on Monday last week that on the fourth day - after the assaults took place on the four youths, Mrs Mandela instructed him: "Go dump that dog". He went to the back room and he saw Stompie Sepei lying there in that room with a pool of blood around his neck, what is your comment to that Sir? MR RICHARDSON MRS SITA Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS SITA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Kades? MR KADES Kades, on behalf of the Asvat family. Mr Richardson, ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR KADES As coach of the soccer team, were you paid a salary? MR RICHARDSON MR KADES What was your source of income during that period? MR RICHARDSON I was working at Plaza Rain. MR KADES ...[inaudible] MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR KADES MR RICHARDSON Could you please repeat the details on the card? MR KADES Maybe we can show you the card. Do you see that card, it has your name on it? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I can see my name. MR KADES And your address of: 9794A Orlando West? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is correct. MR KADES MR RICHARDSON MR KADES ...[inaudible] the approximate time that you called on Doctor Asvat on the first occasion? MR RICHARDSON It was in the afternoon? MR KADES Late in the afternoon - after Mrs Sisulu had left? Did you find a nurse in the surgery? MR RICHARDSON MR KADES ....[inaudible] do you recall what time you went to the surgery - the 27th of January, the day Doctor Asvat was killed? MR RICHARDSON It was in the afternoon as well because the treatment that he gave me - he was supposed to give it to me and I had to sleep immediately thereafter. MR KADES ...[inaudible] precisely the time on the second occasion? MR RICHARDSON I do not remember the time but I think it was anywhere between 4 and 5. MR KADES Are you aware as to whether the late Doctor Asvat ever came to the house of Mrs Mandela to examine Stompie, either on the 29th or the 30th of December of 1988? MR RICHARDSON MR KADES Did you not see him at the house on the day after Stompie was assaulted together with the other boys? MR RICHARDSON No English translation. MR KADES Were you ever present - either at the house or at the surgery of Doctor Asvat, when there was a row between himself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR RICHARDSON MR KADES ...[inaudible] by the police on the 9th of May of 1995, when Mr Moodley came to see you in jail at Leeuwkop, did he question you concerning your presence in the surgery of Doctor Asvat on the day that the doctor was killed - the 27th of January? MR RICHARDSON No, Moodley never asked me anything about Doctor Asvat. MR KADES ...[inaudible] Mr Hesslinga, did he ask you? MR RICHARDSON Nobody ever asked me about Doctor Asvat. MR KADES Did you make any payment to Doctor Asvat in respect of the medical attention that he had given you? MR RICHARDSON MR KADES MR RICHARDSON MR KADES ...[inaudible] the murder of Doctor Asvat, did you come to the home of Doctor Asvat with Mrs Mandela to pay your respects to the family? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR KADES MR RICHARDSON MR KADES Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Miss Hassen? MISS HASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, Hasiena Hassen, I represent Charles Zwane also known as Bobo. MR RICHARDSON MISS HASSEN MR RICHARDSON MISS HASSEN ...[inaudible] confirm that Charles or Bobo was not a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MR RICHARDSON No, I never included him in my line-up. MISS HASSEN Thank you Mr Richardson, no further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS HASSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Makanjee? MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman, Sanjay Makanjee for Mr Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Lerothodi Ikaneng. Just to clarify something, both Mr - you described the assault on Lerothodi Ikaneng and both Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono have said that they only participated in this assault because they were forced by you to do so, can you confirm that? MR RICHARDSON That is not true. MR MAKANJEE And one more question, you testified on the - you gave evidence regarding the assault on Mr Ikaneng but you failed to mention your reason behind the assault, can you clarify that for me? MR RICHARDSON No English translation. CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON Ikaneng knows why he was being assaulted and I also knew why he was being assaulted, he had been branded or labelled as an impimpie. MR MAKANJEE Who labelled Mr Ikaneng as an impimpie? MR RICHARDSON Mummy. MR MAKANJEE No further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Jordi? MR JORDI Mr Chairman, I appear for the Sono family ...[inaudible] family and the Chile family. Mr Richardson, am I correct in understanding that the Mandela United Football Club never really was closed down as such? MR RICHARDSON Even before I answer that question, I want to tell the Commission that you once came to see me ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON No. MR JORDI MR RICHARDSON No, that is not true. MR JORDI In your statement that you gave to the TRC on the 28th of July 1997, you said that Guybon Kubheka, Ronnie Shoes, Sekekune and Sizwe Sithole were involved in the beatings of Lolo and Sibuniso whilst they were in the custody of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, can you tell me - do you know whether any other people were involved in that beating? MR RICHARDSON Yes, there were people who were involved. MR JORDI Who else, other than Guybon, Shoes or Sizwe? MR RICHARDSON I do not remember their names but we were more than that. MR JORDI MR RICHARDSON That is true. MR JORDI MR RICHARDSON When Paul Erasmus told Mummy that I was an informer, I heard with my own ears, nobody else told me. CHAIRPERSON One minute left. MR JORDI Okay. Regarding the decision that was made to kill Lolo and Sibuniso - you said that that was made by Sonwabo, I just wanted to investigate the question of whether Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was aware of that decision, do you know whether she was? MR RICHARDSON MR JORDI MR RICHARDSON MR JORDI Thank you Mr Richardson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JORDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. One! MR MGOJO MR RICHARDSON Yes, they were pretty scared of me, they were very scared of me. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGOJO CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes, Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA Mr Richardson, I would like to know - after the incident in which these two MK people as well as Sergeant Pretorius were killed in your home, were you arrested and charged for harbouring terrorists in your home and could you tell me how long you spent in detention or in jail please? MR RICHARDSON MS SOOKA MR RICHARDSON NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS SOOKA DR BORAINE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Richardson, when you came back in the Kombi from the Methodist Manse and you had Stompie and the other three young people and you took them to the home of Mrs Mandela and you told us that you and others assaulted them, now when you assaulted them, did they cry out at all? MR RICHARDSON Yes, they did cry out and as they were screaming we sang the slogan and freedom songs to drown their voices. DR BORAINE How far is the room or the garage or the back of the house, from the main house where they were being assaulted and crying out? MR RICHARDSON DR BORAINE MR RICHARDSON DR BORAINE MR RICHARDSON Yes, I would agree with you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY DR BORAINE CHAIRPERSON Dumisa? MR NTSEBEZA The question I then ask is, did I get a correct impression that you do not feel safe in that prison because you might be got at by those who might not like you testifying here? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MR NTSEBEZA Would you rather be moved to a much more secure prison, if there is something like that in this country? MR RICHARDSON No, I want to remain there and I will die there and I will only go out of there as a corpse. MR NTSEBEZA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTSEBEZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Hlengiwe? MS MKHIZE Thank you Chairperson, I have three quick questions. The first one, I really want your confirmation Mr Richardson. If I heard you well you seem to be the only one within the Mandela Football Club, who had the expertise of using the weapon which you used in the killings and how to use it? MR RICHARDSON Yes, that is true. MS MKHIZE Thank you. You mentioned the disciplinary committee which used to make decisions about the abductions, the killings and so on, what I want to know is, how much weight did your views carry within that disciplinary committee? MR RICHARDSON Yes, I took those decisions very seriously, to such an extent that I had to eliminate those people. MS MKHIZE In other words what you are saying is, your thoughts or your opinions carried a lot of weight, is that what you are saying? MR RICHARDSON MS MKHIZE ...[inaudible] you have made major allegations in a jocular manner without making an effort to assist us as a Commission by providing supportive evidence, why is that Mr Richardson? MR RICHARDSON NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MKHIZE DR RANDERA MR RICHARDSON DR RANDERA Mr Richardson, can you please try on this one occasion to speak for yourself and leave Mr Erasmus and Mr Moodley out of it. MR RICHARDSON NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY DR RANDERA CHAIRPERSON Khosa? MR MGOJO MR RICHARDSON I was instructed, it was an order and it was a decision that was made. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGOJO MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you, wonderful. Hanif? MR VALLY Just one question Archbishop. At some point in your evidence Mr Richardson, you indicated that forthcoming evidence would unleash a bombshell, what were you referring to? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VALLY Thank you Archbishop, no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VALLY CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARDSON I would like to be given an opportunity to speak to my attorney, I would like to speak to my attorney ...No English translation. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you want to do? MR RICHARDSON CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] We will make such an opportunity that you do meet with them. What is it that you wanted to say to your attorney? MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON He was saying there was a statement that he wanted you to make on his behalf. MR RICHARD Let me find out what it is. CHAIRPERSON We want to go on. MR RICHARD Yes. CHAIRPERSON You have not had specific instructions with regard to that? Can you whisper with him perhaps for two minutes? DR BORAINE Order please, thank you. Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson, the instructions I have received are to communicate that Mr Richardson has a desire to see the Doctor Abu-Baker matter properly re-investigated and in that connection he has expressed a wish that Mrs Albertina Sisulu re-testify - that was the first instruction. The second one is that I have certain cards that he wishes to give to the families of the victims - which I will arrange to do after the hearing. DR BORAINE WITNESS EXCUSED DR BORAINE I call Colonel Hesslinga, Dempsey and Senior Superintendent Moodley. Order please, those who are standing in the hall, will you please be seated or leave, thank you very much. MR HESSLINGA ...[inaudible] DR BORAINE MR DEMPSEY Senior Superintendent. DR BORAINE We have to ask you to take the oath again - for the two of you, and of course obviously Director. Miss Sooka? MS SOOKA Could I ask you to stand please and could I ask you one by one to place your full names on the record please. MR HESSLINGA Hendrik Marthinus Hesslinga. MR DEMPSEY Fredrick Hendrik Dempsey. MR MOODLEY Hoothra Moodley. MR HESSLINGA (sworn states) MR DEMPSEY (sworn states) MR MOODLEY (sworn states) MS SOOKA Thank you. DR BORAINE Piers? I beg your pardon, Mr Cilliers, is that right? MR CILLIERS DR BORAINE I appreciate that suggestion, we will follow it and - Piers? MR PIGOU Senior Superintendent Dempsey, you handed some documents to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Investigation Unit yesterday and I was hoping that you would have those in front of you, do you? MR DEMPSEY No, I do not have the documents in front of me but I did hand them in. Which particular documents are you referring to? Are these the ...[indistinct] documents? Are you referring to the ...[indistinct] documents? MR PIGOU I am. MR DEMPSEY I apologise for not having brought them with me but I have provided them to you as requested and I have briefly glanced at them. MR PIGOU Senior Superintendent Dempsey, could you tell me, at what stage did these documents come into your possession? MR DEMPSEY This was subsequent to the arrest of Mabotha and it was then handed to me by the security branch. MR PIGOU So, it would be fair to say that during the course of your own investigation into the death of Stompie Sepei, you had access to this documentation? MR DEMPSEY That is the case. MR PIGOU Did you at any time anticipate using Temba Mabotha as a witness in the murder investigation of Stompie Sepei? MR DEMPSEY That is the case, also the Advocate for the Prosecution, Advocate van Vuuren - I had a consultation with him and he - in consultation with me, decided that we would not use this witness. MR PIGOU Can you perhaps explain for us or shed some light onto why he would not be used as a witness? MR DEMPSEY I could not explain to you why the advocate decided not to use him as a witness. MR PIGOU MR DEMPSEY Advocate van Vuuren is a person who simply decides who he will use in a prosecution and it was not amongst my rights to ask him questions as to why he did this or that, I could not be prescriptive in that setting. MR PIGOU MR DEMPSEY Had it not been for my investigation or for my request that this investigation be done we would not have found this witness, it was on my request that we track down this witness. You must remember at that time he was implicated as a possible co-accused and he was also a person who might have instructed other persons to assault the persons involved. Because of the police investigation, this person was tracked down and that testimoney was given to the prosecutor and Advocate van Vuuren decided not to use this person. MR PIGOU Could I put it to you this way, were you disappointed when Advocate van Vuuren made that decision? MR DEMPSEY Sir, I cannot tell you whether I was disappointed or not - there were many frustrations in this case, his decision however was final and I did not go against this decision. MR PIGOU Did you raise this decision with Major General Jaap Joubert, the overall head of the investigation unit? MR DEMPSEY I was the investigating officer in this case and as you would certainly know yourself, we simply investigate a case, we make the facts available to the prosecutor and the Attorney General and they make a final decision, we cannot make this decision, it is their decision. MR PIGOU It seems to me that in my position certainly, if I had been in your shoes I think I would have taken it to my commanding officer or at least to as higher authority as possible. Just one more response on this, did you not even consider taking it to a more senior authority within the police service? MR DEMPSEY Again, - and I will repeat myself, the final decision is not a police decision, the final decision is an Attorney General decision. MR PIGOU MR DEMPSEY No, after we spoke with him and after it had been decided that he would not be used as a witness, I saw no further need to make any follow-up investigations with regard to him. MR PIGOU MR DEMPSEY I bear no knowledge of this. Again, I do not believe that a Captain in the South African Police can be prescriptive with regard to the Attorney General in the use of witnesses. MR PIGOU Did you make any further attempts to locate - on the basis of the information provided to you by the security branch to locate this person Sledge, did you make any attempts through the security branch information to identify who Sledge was? MR DEMPSEY We made various efforts, we also constituted a field task to hunt down these people even though we did not know what they looked like, we only had these nicknames such as Sledge, Shoes, Dark Sunday and so forth. MR PIGOU Thank you. MR MOODLEY ...{inaudible] INTERPRETER MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU Would you like to make a general response to the allegations which have been put forward by Mr Jerry Richardson. MR CILLIERS DR BORAINE Thank you, what I would suggest is that if there are any specifics that you think are important, please put them to the witness because I think the case is reasonably made. MR PIGOU DR BORAINE Thank you, proceed. MR PIGOU Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you give Jerry Richardson R10.000-00 in Leeuwkop Prison in 1995? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU So, he was actually given R10.000-00 in cash? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU And from information received by the investigation unit, he was not provided with items such as football kit, video recorders, a video and a tape deck by yourself? MR MOODLEY Yes, I bought it for him - soccer kit and other equipment. MR PIGOU Is that out of the R10.000-00? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU Did you get a receipt for this R10.000-00? MR MOODLEY From? MR PIGOU Mr Richardson. MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU Did the investigation unit keep an account of money spent on Mr Richardson that this Commission would be able to look at to see what money was spent and to establish whether indeed that money was spent because Mr Richardson has said that he did not receive R10.000-00 and that he did not receive anything and would like that money. MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY No, but the prison authorities will be able to verify that. MR PIGOU They should be able to verity that? MR MOODLEY Yes. MR PIGOU Is that usual practice - to not keep accounts of this sort? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY We have a receipt for the money ...[indistinct] signed. MR PIGOU You do have that and is that available? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU Could you tell us why not? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU So, the investigation is still outstanding? MR MOODLEY Yes. MR PIGOU And can you tell us what efforts are being made to pursue the killers of Kuki Zwane at this time? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU So Warrant Officer in 1995, Director in 1997? MR MOODLEY MR PIGOU Thank you. Questions now for Director Hesslinga now please. Director Hesslinga, what was your position and rank in 1989? MR HESSLINGA I was a Captain. MR PIGOU And at which unit were you based? MR HESSLINGA I was second in command of the murder and robbery squad at Protea in Soweto. MR PIGOU And was your commanding officer Colonel Oosthuizen? MR HESSLINGA That is the case Mr Chair. MR PIGOU And after the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, were you put directly onto this case as the investigating officer? MR HESSLINGA That is the case Mr Chair. MR PIGOU Was that on the day itself of the murder or a few days after that? MR HESSLINGA If I recall correctly, I received the docket a day or two after the incident, however I was on the scene at the time of the murder on Doctor Abu -Baker Asvat. MR PIGOU ...[inaudible] in command of the murder and robbery unit at Protea, did you have sort of background knowledge of the alleged activities of the Mandela United Football Club? MR HESSLINGA MR PIGOU Thank you, but apart from that, did you have a general knowledge, was there some sort of common parlance amongst the police in Soweto at that time, that around the activities of the Mandela United Football Club - your colleague to the right of you was investigating the disappearance of Lolo Sono and Stompie Sepei and so forth, you must have had some common understanding being second in-charge of the unit, you must have known what was going on. MR HESSLINGA Subsequently I obtained information with regard to the existence and activities of the soccer club. MR PIGOU Thanks, just briefly returning to the Dalywonga case that you were referring to where the house was burnt down, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela personally lay the charge? MR HESSLINGA There was a docket opened with regard to arson but I cannot recall who the original complainant had been. I attempted on several occasions to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela, I visited her office in Diepkloof in Soweto, I attempted to wait for her at the University of the Witwatersrand where she was then a student or registered as a student but I was not able to track Mrs Mandela down. I did not manage to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela and the docket was then closed down at a later stage without any statement from Mrs Mandela. MR PIGOU My understanding is that by the 22nd of February 1989, the following information existed inside the Protea Murder and Robbery Unit - you had two statements from Tulani Dlamini, one taken by Paul Smuts and one taken by Gert Zeelie on the 17th and 18th of February respectively, both of those statements implicating Mrs Mandela in the death of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat. MR HESSLINGA I also obtained a Volkswagen Kombi vehicle at Jan Smuts after Mrs Mandela returned from Cape Town. With regard to the Cebekhulu case or matter, I was not involved in any way. I was the investigating officer in the Asvat case while Captain Dempsey - at that time, was entirely the investigating officer in the Stompie Sepei and Cebekhulu matters. In addition - to answer the question comprehensively, I did have the two statements in my possession as this been stated to me now and this was amongst the statements filed in my docket - that is in fact correct. MR PIGOU Was there no kind of docket inspection which is standard procedure inside the South African Police and surely your docket also, there would have been some sort of reference point there? I do not understand how the connection could not have been made, could you perhaps explain that to us? MR HESSLINGA Chair, the only statement in the docket which in any way implicated Mrs Mandela, were the two statements by Tulani Nicholas Dlamini, both the first statement on the 17th of February made to a Captain Smuts - this was a simple oath statement or sworn statement, on the 18th of February the same person Mr Dlamini - accused 2, made a statement to a police officer, Lieutenant Gert Petrus Zeelie, both of these statements were - these statements had internal conflicts. In statement one, Dlamini says that he had been hired by Mrs Mandela and that an amount of R300.000-00 would have been paid to him. He speaks of a Coloured man in a BMW vehicle who would have waited for him after the murder, he also speaks of their hiding away in a flat in Vereeniging and that subsequently they returned and were then arrested. MR PIGOU Thank you for pointing out all those contradictions but let me ask you this - on the basis of those contradictions, did you decide then that it was not necessary to pursue a line of investigation with regards to the allegations made in connection with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? MR HESSLINGA Chair, if I can be allowed to conclude my explanation. DR BORAINE ...[inaudible] thank you. MR HESSLINGA Subsequently accused number 1 made an identification and on the scene he said certain things which were coherent with his original statement. In his subsequent explanation in court - in terms of his plea, there was a continued consistency with his indications at the scene and his original statement. What I want to say is that as the investigating officer, Mbatha, accused number 1 appeared to me to give an entirely acceptable explanation and he continued to be consistent in his story while accused number 2 jumped around and changed his story all the time. While we have two sworn statements from two firemen who followed Dlamini and Mbatha when they ran away from the house of Doctor Asvat, that they ran through an open field and that they were therefore not able to continue to pursue these two. They then stopped a police vehicle, they made a report to the police vehicle, the police vehicle continued to look for these people but were not able to track them down. MR PIGOU At what stage did you become aware of the Katiza Cebekhulu statement in which it was alleged that Doctor Asvat had been to the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to examine a very badly injured Stompie Sepei? MR HESSLINGA Chair, I am 100% honest, I first became aware of Cebekhulu and his possible involvement in the Asvat case, was when I was the investigating officer in the Goldstone Commission investigations. There were then newspaper reports that Cebekhulu was in jail in Zambia and that he made these certain claims, that is the first I heard that Cebekhulu could possibly be involved in the Asvat case. MR PIGOU MR HESSLINGA MR PIGOU MR DEMPSEY (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Director Hesslinga? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MOODLEY Mr Chairman, I know Mr Pigou because of these investigations - I met him first in Vereeniging and I assisted him or the team investigating these type of cases, so he knows a bit of the background when I was assisting him at the time. I was never involved in this kind of thing, this is why I think I was chosen to join the time and I was never ever found guilty of such offences and never involved myself in it. I have knowledge of these things in court and there were allegations made that there were people who did this and I myself was alleged to have done these things but I never did it. DR BORAINE Yes, could I just - gentlemen, they way I heard the question was not only: "Were you actually involved in any of this"? but "Did you know of any experience"?, in other words: "Were you aware - not of allegations or newspaper report but of incidents amongst your own colleagues and your own experience" - that was the word that was used, "did you come across this at all or was there absolutely nothing in that at all?" MR MOODLEY Myself, no, Mr Chairman. MR DEMPSEY (English translation inaudible) MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) DR BORAINE Thank you. MR PIGOU Chair, it is remarkable that in South Africa so many people want to confess, I will leave it at that for this and I will move on with Director Hesslinga. MR MILLER DR BORAINE Thank you Mr Miller. Piers? MR PIGOU Director Hesslinga, did you during the course of your investigation into the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, seek the assistance of the security branch - any of their information? MR HESSLINGA No, Mr Chairman. MR PIGOU MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Could you tell us where those documents went after you concluded your investigation? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Were they copies or originals Director Hesslinga? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Thank you. Were you able to establish whether Stompie Sepei was indeed an informer for the security branch? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU On page 16 of your investigation diary, you say that Richardson - it was confirmed that Richardson was a source ...[inaudible] Lieutenant Colonel Muller and that this formed some sort of basis I believe, for the payment which was approved by Director Brits and Assistant Commissioner Grove, were you able to get any documentation at all to prove that Richardson was an informer? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Was Lieutenant Colonel Muller able to tell you who else around Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was informing to the security police? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Why not? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Thank you Director Hesslinga. On the same page on the second paragraph, you talk about visiting murder and robbery and speaking to Lieutenant Colonel Dempsey about the Lolo Sono kidnapping docket and you say: "In this docket there is prima faci evidence that Mrs Winnie Mandela is directly involved in the abduction of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Did you actually have access to that docket? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU And could you tell us what is contained inside that docket because we seem to have had some trouble in tracking it down. MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Director Hesslinga, who was Michael Siakamela or who is Michael Siakamela? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Can you remember what the content of his statement said? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU And was Mr Siakamela taken to the Attorney General in 1995 to speak to him about the contents of his statement? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Yes, Michael Siakamela. MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU And can you recall at the end of your investigation, what the recommendations were around - from the Attorney General now, around the abduction case of Mr Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU I just want to move on quickly to ...[intervention] DR BORAINE MR PIGOU DR BORAINE ...[inaudible] MR PIGOU Feel free. MR HESSLINGA Sorry, can you just repeat that, is it page 21? MR PIGOU MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU is left in the hands of Warrant Officer Malherbe at the time, with his connections in the ANC, were you not concerned about this? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Did you make any enquiries about the abduction of Katiza Cebekhulu and the fact that he was alleged to have been taken out of the country by the ANC and who knows ANC Intelligence was involved in this as well, did you make any enquiries in this regard? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU Did Warrant Molaba provide you with any insight into this particular problem? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) DR BORAINE One more. MR PIGOU This is the last question. I asked this question to your colleague Senior Superintendent Moodley on Monday and perhaps you can shed some more light on it. It seems as if a considerable amount of resources was spent on this investigation, your flying to Zambia, Senior Superintendent Moodley going to the UK and digging up things and flying around in helicopters and all the rest of it, why was this investigation - after having so many resources put into it, closed down when there are clear a number of strands of the investigation which still had to be followed? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR PIGOU No further question Mr Chair, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PIGOU DR BORAINE Thank you. Mr Semenya? MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. Any of the three gentlemen - around the statement of Johannes Mabotha - can you refresh our memory, these Section 29 statements were made under the law at the time that said: "If you do not answer questions to the satisfaction of the arresting officer, you might not secure your release", is that right? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SEMENYA S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SEMENYA And in fact, now that we know that Mabotha was blown up by de Kock, have you got any independent validation that the contents of the statements were - one: freely and voluntarily made, and secondly, whether they were true? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SEMENYA Does the validation you think exists, that the contents of a Section 29 statements are a true and freely and voluntarily made? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SEMENYA Sorry, Senior Superintendent, are you saying this statement was made in the presence of an attorney or it was not denied in the presence of an attorney? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SEMENYA I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA DR BORAINE Right, please go ahead. MR SOLLER Thank you Mr Chairman, Peter Soller on behalf of Zakhele Mbatha. Superintendent and Senior Superintendent Moodley and Hesslinga, I direct these questions to you if I may. Do you suggest for one second to this Commission, that you have never been involved in any torturing activities as police officers. S.A. POLICE Are you talking to me directly? MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE No. (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER Do you know the layout of - what was called, the John Vorster Square? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER Will you tell the Commission how many lifts there are at John Vorster Square. S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER Well, I was such a select person, be it that I was an attorney and I can tell you that for many years - probably 15 to 20 years of my practice, I saw some horrific sights leave that lift under the floor of John Vorster Square and bodies or human beings pretending or portraying themselves as living bodies were taken out of that floor or brought into that floor where further interrogations took place or where they were taken to private hospitals for treatment, do you not know about that? MR CILLIERS MR SOLLER Mr Chair, my learned friend ...[intervention] DR BORAINE Mr Kades? MR SOLLER I want to put to this witness, does he not know as a fact that pre-democratic era in this country, there were selected Judges chosen to hear human rights matters where there was torture involved. DR BORAINE I think you must be very brief in pursuing this, I think the witness has already indicated that he personally knows nothing about the torture which allegedly took place and I think to pursue it for too long is unnecessary and irrelevant, so please get to the point. MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE DR BORAINE Senior Superintendent ...[intervention] S.A. POLICE DR BORAINE Just before you start. MR SOLLER Mr Mbatha has also instructed me that by both of you, he was electrocuted all over his body including electrification and being burnt electrically on his penis, on his ears and on his neck etc., what do you say to that? S.A. POLICE No. MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE MR SOLLER But you say that it did ...[intervention] S.A. POLICE ...[inaudible] MR SOLLER What do you say ...[inaudible] DR BORAINE ...[inaudible] MR SOLLER Director Hesslinga, is that news to you? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER Not? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER Well, I guess I would be quite shocked if you were to admit it. He would also say that you brutally hit him to such an extent - and again he repeats that both of you did it, that he became unconscious from time to time. S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) MR SOLLER Well with respect ...[intervention] DR BORAINE Mr Soller, I think you must now ...[inaudible] MR SOLLER I am Mr Deputy Chairperson. With respect Director, whilst you might believe fully in the integrity of many Regional Court Magistrates, we know as fact - having practised for many years and my case for 25 odd years, that many, many accused have appeared before Regional Court Magistrates not showing signs of injury but when micro-analysed by a pathologist - such as the late Doctor ...[inaudible], it was found that these people were injured by the most subtle means executed by the police force, do you deny that? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) DR BORAINE Could you complete now please? MR SOLLER As it pleases you Mr Deputy Chair. Mr Mbatha will say that the particular reference to the assaults was this - is that whenever he tried to implicate Mrs Mandela - in relating back to the late Doctor Asvat, whenever he did so, it was then that the torture arose and neither of you two gentlemen on my right would allow him to make one adverse comment about the killing of Doctor Asvat in relation to the participation by Mrs Mandela, what do you have to say? S.A. POLICE (English translation inaudible) DR BORAINE Last question, thank you. MR SOLLER My very last question to both of you is this - there was evidence given by Mr Richardson - who was the previous witness, that around about May of 1995, he spoke to one of you whilst he was at the Leeuwkop Prison - I think it was to ...[inaudible], do you recall that? S.A. POLICE ...[inaudible] MR SOLLER Now, can you explain how come a few days after that - about six or seven days, my learned friend Doctor Seriti - acting on behalf of Mrs Mandela, was able to convey to Mrs Mandela - and I quote from a letter from my learned friend to the Commission of Police S.A. POLICE MR SOLLER Five or seven days. S.A. POLICE After we saw Richardson, you got a letter from? MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE MR SOLLER Well, have a look at the last paragraph on page 1. S.A. POLICE Yes? MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE No idea. MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE No idea. MR SOLLER S.A. POLICE I have no idea. MR SOLLER Did you discuss this matter with your Commissioner? S.A. POLICE He discussed with me - the letter was given to us. MR SOLLER Did you investigate it? S.A. POLICE Investigate which part of it? MR SOLLER MR CILLIERS (English translation inaudible) DR BORAINE MR SOLLER DR BORAINE Mr Miller? MR MILLER Thank you Deputy Chairperson, Michael Miller appearing for Tulani Dlamini. I want to address my questions to you Director Hesslinga, I asked some of these questions to Senior Superintendent Moodley the other day but he was unable to provide proper answers because he said you were the investigating officer and not him. MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER But what the two statements had in common - that is the statements made to the police, what they had in common was that he implicated Mrs Mandela. MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER Incidentally, one thing that interests me a lot, is the fact that this affidavit was taken on the 17th of February at which time Mr Dlamini had already been arrested, is that correct? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER Is it usual practice to take sworn affidavits from arrested persons? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER So in other words, the intention was at that stage, that Mr Dlamini would be a witness against Mrs Mandela? MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) S.A. POLICE DR BORAINE Mr Miller? MR MILLER May I ask you Senior Superintendent, who compiled or wrote this diary? S.A. POLICE MR MILLER Because you see, the evidence before this Commission from the Asvat family is that there was no money missing, they balanced the books and they found nothing missing. S.A. POLICE MR MILLER MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER But you see, I find that interesting because those admissions made by Mbatha, cannot possibly be admissible against Dlamini. MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) DR BORAINE One more minute Mr Miller. MR MILLER I am winding up Deputy Chairperson. DR BORAINE Thank you. MR MILLER Finally - and here I wind up, I want to put it to you Director Hesslinga, that the reason why the aspect of Mrs Mandela was not further investigated is because to proceed with the theory that it was a robbery and that it was a common-law crime without a political motive, was a far easier way for the police to solve the case and to obtain a conviction, whereas if it had been that the police were implicating Mrs Mandela, it would have been politically far too sensitive. MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) (start of new tape) 49 witnesses made statements which made part of this docket and which was then presented to the Attorney General. The Attorney General then decided not to use the testimony and the statements of the accused. A letter of the Attorney General in which he explains why he chose not to use this testimony is in my possession and ...[inaudible] in paragraph 11. Chair, I would very much like to tell this Commission that the Asvat matter and the claims against Mrs Mandela also bothered me as a police official to such a degree that after both of the accused were found guilty and after they were in fact given the death sentence, I visited them on the 18th of December on death row in Pretoria. I have with me a copy of the visitors book at death row and it is indicated that on the 18th of December 1989, I did have meeting with certain prisoners. I saw Dlamini and I said to him - in view of the death sentence which might in fact be effective, whether he would not be willing to assist us with regard to the allegations made by himself against Mrs Mandela - he refused. I also spoke to Mbatha separately and Mbatha said to me that he would stick with his story. I asked him specifically with regard to the allegations of Dlamini against him in the trial and what he said to me was that it was a bunch of nonsense and that he would stick to his story - I then left. MR MILLER MR HESSLINGA (English translation inaudible) MR MILLER MR HESSLINGA "...[inaudible] statement made by accused 2 before the Justice of the Peace that placed him in the scene of the offence but is in essence of ...[indistinct] statement. It was also stated by accused 2 in the statement that the person whom he accompanied to the surgery - one Johannes who later transpired to be accused 1, had reported to him that he, Johannes had been paid the amount of R20.000-00 by Mrs Mandela to assassinate the deceased in this case - he mentioned nothing of the robbery. MR MILLER But it was not true that the claims by accused 2 had been investigated? MR HESSLINGA MR MILLER Is that correct, the claims by accused 2 - by Mr Dlamini, had not been investigated? MR HESSLINGA I have just given testimony that I in fact after the trial, went to see them to attempt to investigate it in ...[intervention] MR MILLER ...[inaudible] MR HESSLINGA No, not prior to the trial. MR MILLER Thank you Chairperson. DR BORAINE Thank you. Mr Kades? MR KADES Norman Kades, on behalf of the Asvat family. Do I understand Mr Hesslinga, that the position is that when the investigation was re-opened on the 24th of April of 1995, you and Mr Moodley were, are of the view that there was no new evidence to be discovered in the case of the murder of Doctor Asvat and that the police had really concluded their investigations? MR HESSLINGA That is correct Chair. MR KADES MR HESSLINGA Chair, I did state this to the Asvat family after our investigation. We did re-investigate various aspects of the Asvat matter and after the investigation we said this to the Asvat family and to Mr ...[indistinct]. MR MOODLEY ...[inaudible] the question put is that - did we know when we started the investigation ...[intervention] MR KADES Yes, absolutely. MR MOODLEY No, no, from the information we got - these were the leads given to us, we investigated those leads. MR KADES What were the leads Mr Moodley? MR MOODLEY That we should see Cebekhulu, speak to Richards and those kind of leads. MR KADES No, no, what kinds of leads Mr Moodley? MR MOODLEY MR KADES MR MOODLEY I think Mr Chairman - in all fairness to me, I think we must find that letter and see why we were directed to do what we did - by the Commissioner and the Minister, I think we must be given a fair opportunity to do that. MR HESSLINGA Chair, allow me to answer, this matter of the re-investigation of the Asvat case occurred as follows: there was a request from the Asvat family - addressed to our Minister, whether the Asvat case could not be investigated further. The Minister then called me and Doctor Asvat, Mr Montane and their legal representative were then present at that meeting. They requested us and asked whether we could not investigate the Asvat matter with regard specifically to the involvement of Mrs Mandela. I offered to my Minister and to Doctor Asvat that I had been the previous investigating officer, I offered to withdraw from the investigation that could then have a new person investigate the entire matter objectively. Doctor Asvat and the Minister and my Commissioner were satisfied and then in fact required of me to do this investigation. I did not mislead anybody, it was a request on the part of the Asvat family that we should continue with the investigation. MR KADES MR HESSLINGA DR BORAINE MR KADES DR BORAINE Could you reply briefly to that for a final time and then I must ask you to move on. MR HESSLINGA Chair, the court case which we investigated against Mbatha and Dlamini, we used every possible testimony which the Attorney General decided to use. What we did when the Minister asked us, we then did additional investigations and we had an interview with Jerry Richardson with regard to the Asvat murder, we spoke to the two accused. And I can say to the Commission, we put them in a cell and we tapped their conversations with a tap to determine whether there might not be additional information emerging - that is the extent of our investigations. MR KADES MR HESSLINGA Chair, I had a long personal interview with Jerry Richardson, I drove with him in a vehicle and he indicated the place where Kuki Zwane was thrown in the open veld and during that trip - we in the motor vehicle, had this conversation with Mr Richardson. MR KADES Mr Moodley was with you in the car? MR HESSLINGA INTERPRETER The interpreter could not hear the name. MR HESSLINGA but this is a deceased police officer and possible a Sergeant Savage. MR KADES ...[inaudible] DR BORAINE MR KADES Mr Moodley, did you ever take a statement from Charla Botha? MR MOODLEY From? MR KADES Charla Botha, the third person Botha, mentioned in the statements of - well, mentioned at the trial - statements of Dlamini and Mbatha. Did you ever take a statement from that person? MR MOODLEY The second ...[inaudible] I took in 1995 from Dlamini in the cell ...[intervention] MR KADES At any time Mr Moodley Shalala I think you call - Botha Shawala I think is his name. Do you hear the name for the first time today? MR MOODLEY I heard the name. That must be the guy that he said worked at the coal factory in Soweto. MR KADES Yes. MR MOODLEY MR KADES MR MOODLEY No. MR KADES Did either of you ever talk to the Crisis Committee to find out what information they had concerning the Asvat murder? MR MOODLEY We did and we have a document - they gave us a document regarding that. MR KADES Who did you speak to? MR MOODLEY MR KADES Who did you speak to at the Crisis Committee? MR MOODLEY MR KADES Who did you speak to at the Crisis Committee? MR HESSLINGA Chair, we spoke to Doctor Beyers Naude, I spoke to Doctor Frank Chikane, we spoke to people from AZAPO and the other persons of the Crisis Committee were not available to us as many of them were in fact outside the country. MR KADES Was there any reason why - in the ordinary course of investigations Mr Hesslinga, that you should not question a person who is indicated to you as having information concerning a most serious matter of murder? MR HESSLINGA MR KADES MR HESSLINGA MR KADES All the occasions when you were involved in the investigation of the death of Doctor Asvat. MR HESSLINGA During the 1995 investigation, Mrs Mandela personally reacted or responded, she sent a letter to us in which her attorneys informed us that we should either charge or leave their client. MR KADES MR HESSLINGA No. MR KADES Thank Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Unterhalter? MR UNTERHALTER Mr Hesslinga, I appear for the Sono and Shabalala families. Did you every receive any report or any information to suggest that the police killed or burnt the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala? MR HESSLINGA Chair, this is the first time I hear this claim. MR UNTERHALTER MR HESSLINGA I can vaguely recall something like that but not factually. MR UNTERHALTER Can I then ask you, did you ever undertake an interview with Mrs Mandela concerning the Sono and Shabalala cases? MR HESSLINGA Never. At this time - since the Attorney General instructed us or informed us that he was not going to review his decision, there is in fact no legal grounds for us on which to confront Mrs Mandela or attempt to obtain a statement from her. MR UNTERHALTER ...[inaudible] MR HESSLINGA MR UNTERHALTER ...[inaudible] last time that you saw the docket in the Sono case? MR HESSLINGA That must have been during 1995 Chair. MR UNTERHALTER MR MOODLEY MR UNTERHALTER MR MOODLEY MR UNTERHALTER And what was the response? MR MOODLEY NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR UNTERHALTER MR UNTERHALTER Thank you. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA MR DEMPSEY ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR DEMPSEY MS SOOKA MR DEMPSEY MS SOOKA MR MOODLEY It seems to be the one that corroborates it. MS SOOKA MR HESSLINGA Chair, I personally gave him R10.000-00 in cash and he signed - in the presence of two witnesses, for that amount. The original receipt is available, I had it locked in a safe in the police head office. With regard to the money used for the gifts and the soccer clothes and so forth, I am aware of this but this was in the able hands of my colleague and friend Senior Superintendent Moodley. MS SOOKA So in fact, R10.000-00 in cash was carried to the prison, if I hear you correctly. Mr Moodley, may I ask you a question please, have you ever been convicted of fraud in the terms of your service as a policeman? MR MOODLEY Yes, I have. MS SOOKA Could you tell this Commission what that was for please? MR MOODLEY MS SOOKA And is it not true that recently when certain lie detector tests - when you had to undergo a lie detector test, did you pass that test because there seems to be some uncertainty about that? MR MOODLEY MS SOOKA Thank you very much. DR BORAINE Doctor Randera? ...[inaudible] DR RANDERA Two questions Doctor Boraine. MR HESSLINGA No, Chair, I personally handed R10.000-00 in hard cash to him. Subsequently - after he received this amount, he spoke to us and to the head of the prison and indicated that he wanted to use this money for his soccer team in prison and for co-prisoners in prison and that is how the process then continued. DR RANDERA MR MOODLEY MR DEMPSEY No. DR RANDERA ...[inaudible] yesterday or the day before. MR MOODLEY We just heard now that he was blown up - I heard that. DR BORAINE MR SEMENYA No. DR BORAINE Thank you very much, you are very accommodating, thank you. Do you want to speak before Mr Cilliers or after Mr Cilliers? MR VALLY I think it would be proper if I speak before Mr Cilliers in case he ...[intervention] DR BORAINE MR VALLY Director Hesslinga, you were a member of Koevoet, is that correct? MR HESSLINGA MR VALLY As a member of Koevoet - two issues, did you witness any torture taking place in Namibia and did you encounter Colonel Eugene de Kock while you were in Koevoet? MR HESSLINGA Chair, I served with Colonel de Kock in Koevoet, he was one of my colleagues. All that I can say with regard to my time in Koevoet, was that we were at war - that is as much as I can answer. MR VALLY Did you witness torture while you were with Koevoet? MR HESSLINGA My answer Chair, would be that we were in a state of war, that is my answer. MR VALLY Will I get a better answer - he made an unequivocal statement under oath that he has never witnessed or participated in torture. In answer to a direct question on the issue, he now says he was in a war situation, are we to imply from his answer that yes, in a war situation he did either participate or witness torture? DR BORAINE Director, please answer. MR CILLIERS ...[inaudible] DR BORAINE Yes, sure. MR CILLIERS DR BORAINE Did you or did you not witness torture or participate in torture activities during the war in Namibia? MR HESSLINGA Chair, the word: "torture" - we were in a state of war, we were in war circumstances, we were shooting at one another, we bled and the people around us died. Were someone wounded and lying on the ground, would that be torture or not? That we were hanging people or cutting their throats or torturing people - this did not happen, we were conducting our war. MR VALLY MR DEMPSEY Chair, I believe that the question to me is factually incorrect. I took the statement from Michael Siakemela, the statement of Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala were taken by Lemmer. MR VALLY MR DEMPSEY I cannot answer this question Chair. I carried that docket and in my prior testimony, I received this docket on the 20th of January 1989. DR BORAINE Mr Valley? MR VALLY Very finally, Mr Johannes Temba Mabotha, an Askari who was now back in your hands as the police - according to you, was perfectly willing to co-operate in a unique position in the Madikizela-Mandela household. MR DEMPSEY Again Sir, your facts are not correct, I did not arrest this man, security arrested this man, security detained this man, security had the oversight of this man. MR VALLY Sorry, a follow-up question. DR BORAINE Yes, carry on. MR VALLY DR BORAINE Mr Dempsey? MR DEMPSEY Again, this man was not simply handed to us, we had to track him down with careful investigative work. MR CILLIERS Director Hesslinga, you were criticised because you did not approach Mrs Mandela or confront Mrs Mandela after a clear connection which linked her with the Asvat matter. Apart from the allegations of Mr Dlamini that he had heard from Mr Mbatha that such a connection existed, had there been any other supporting evidence? MR HESSLINGA No. MR CILLIERS Must it not be seen in addition in view of the fact that the same Mr Dlamini in that very week, denied his own statement or allegation in the Regional Court during his plea? MR HESSLINGA That is correct Chair, and also in the High Court. MR CILLIERS The next question is only for Senior Superintendent Dempsey. With regard to criticism with regard to certain testimony not offered during the course of the trial against Mrs Mandela, is it not - as it appears from the High Court record, that with great difficulty, the High Court allowed that such facts in the case could be offered in the case against Mrs Mandela with regard to similar incidents, in order to strengthen the case against her? MR HESSLINGA That is the case Chair. MR CILLIERS Is it also correct - as appears from the record, that in fact after all of this considerable trouble and difficulty in legal terms, the High Court allowed this and all the witnesses to bring testimony against Mrs Mandela? MR HESSLINGA That is correct. MR CILLIERS Is it also correct that in fact - as you have already testified at an earlier stage of this hearing, the original dockets with regard to these matters are still in your possession and has been offered to the Truth Commission with regard to identical matters, with the addresses and the particular witnesses. MR HESSLINGA That is the case. MR CILLIERS Thank you Chair. DR BORAINE Thank you very much, that concludes the session. I want to thank you for making yourself available to the Commission and undergoing the questions. This hearing is adjourned until 8H30 tomorrow morning, thank you. WITNESSES EXCUSED COMMISSION ADJOURNS