special Mandela United Football Club Hearings Johannesburg 5 ALBERTINA SISULU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56342&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/special/mandela/mufc9.htm COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS . CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. We welcome you very warmly to this, the last day, of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I just want to express to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela our concern about the bomb scare last night, and hope that the arrangements that were made will ensure that nothing happens that is untoward. May I also again just appeal to those of you who are smokers, don't smoke anywhere in this building. It is a smoke free zone. If you want to smoke, smoke outside of the building itself. We would be most grateful if you could do that. I now call Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to the witness stand. We have to have a briefer please, thank you. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, welcome and thank you for having been here all this time. Are you going to testify in English or Xhosa or any other language? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA In English. WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Semenya? EXAMINATION BY MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. Ma'am, we have heard over the past eight days, that in the past eight odd years, there have been rumours about your complicity in human right abuse cases. We have heard over the period that there have been smear campaigns associating you with these things. We have heard about impressions which people have held about you in association with these human right abuses. We have heard over the past eight days that over the eight years odd, there have been beliefs about your association in these things. We have sat over the eight years, and listened to hearsay evidence linking you to these things. We have over the past eight years, also had statements from deceased persons that seek to associate you with these human right violation cases. We have heard over the past eight years allegations which have been levelled against you. We have also heard facts of assaults that have been inflicted on some of the victims. We have also heard facts about the deaths of various people. We have heard over the past eight days various conspiracies that have been wound up around these issues and we have seen over the past eight days, even newspaper headlines, today being the last day of the hearing, that you are a police informer. I think the rest of the country and the world perhaps, has waited for an opportunity that you meet all these allegations and I hope to take you through various aspects of it. My professional judgement though is that we may not be able to meet each and every such allegation and or rumour and meet it adequately, but it would be incumbent on us to address main areas that have arisen during the past eight days. Can I then draw your attention to the first area which is the four young men who were staying at the Methodist manse. When do you for the first time meet Katiza Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My recollection is that I met Cebekhulu for the first time on the 29th of December. MR SEMENYA What were the circumstances? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The circumstances were that I was informed by Falati that there was a sick young boy who was in the manse in the care of Rev Paul Verryn and that this boy was claiming that he had been sodomised. Falati stated that she doubted his state of mind, because he was sitting at the doorstep of the bedroom and he was threatening to assault Rev Paul Verryn. MR SEMENYA At that time, how long had you known Mrs Xoliswa Falati? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think I had known her for a few months when she came over to me to ask for help. MR SEMENYA What was your understanding of her in terms of the politics of the day? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not know her before. She came to me and informed me that her house had been bombed in the East Rand and she was with her daughter. She said I should please assist her with placing her daughter in school and that she herself had no place to stay. MR SEMENYA Did you place the daughter in school? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did. I placed the daughter in school in Orlando East. MR SEMENYA On the day of the 29th of December 1988, was Katiza brought to you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, she brought Katiza to me. MR SEMENYA And what did you do with him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I took Katiza to Dr Asvat. MR SEMENYA Why? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Because I wanted to check firstly his state of mind, and the allegation he was making. I didn't know to what extent it had affected him. MR SEMENYA Maybe let us confront the problem at this moment. Katiza in the book said that there was a conspiracy that you and him would then frame Bishop Verryn with allegations of sodomy. What is your response? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, that was a ridiculous accusation on his part. At that stage I hardly knew Rev Paul Verryn and I don't even recollect exactly when I met him. MR SEMENYA And I think the evidence is common cause, you then took Katiza to Dr Asvat. Was he examined? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, he was examined. MR SEMENYA Did you take Katiza to Dr Asvat again? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, there was no need to take him back again. Dr Asvat stated that specialists were away and that he would make an appointment around January, because it was the end of the year, December. MR SEMENYA If you had conspired with Katiza to fabricate a lie, would you have taken Katiza to the Doctor? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon? MR SEMENYA If you had conspired with Katiza to fabricate this story, would you then have taken Katiza to see a Medical Practitioner? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA There would be no logic in that at all. We didn't need Dr Asvat's opinion for a formulated lie. MR SEMENYA And later in the day came the other young men, Mekgwe, Thabiso Mono and the others. Did you send for these boys, or young men rather? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, whilst I was away at Dr Asvat's surgery, Falati advised me on my way back, that she had sent for the rest of the boys, because she believed that they were similarly affected. I hardly knew the ages of those boys and I have no problem at all with the kind of life Rev Paul Verryn was alleged to lead by Falati. I have no problem with two consenting adults engaging in that kind of life, but I had a problem when I was told that there were these children who had gone to seek refuge at the manse, and they were exposed to that. MR SEMENYA Did you know that the young men were removed from the manse forcibly? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No. Falati told me that she went to fetch them to protect them and if I recollect well, actually she was going to try and place them elsewhere if this had been confirmed by her. MR SEMENYA Did you have occasion to get the version from these young men about this allegations? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No. There was no need for me to do that. The reason why they took the bus was in fact because I was using the kombi and on my way back, I was to deposit Falati and Katiza and proceed to Brandfort. MR SEMENYA What car were you using at that time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was using my kombi. MR SEMENYA Was the Audi around that time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I think I had lost the Audi about three or four years back. MR SEMENYA Now, in some brief format, we know now that the young men were assaulted by Richardson and the others. Did you witness any of this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I didn't. MR SEMENYA Did you see any injuries on the young men? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I didn't. MR SEMENYA Was there a point at which you gained a view or an impression that the young men staying at your house, were staying there under some cohesion? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not at all, until there were rumours to the effect that there were boys who were forcibly kept in my house. MR SEMENYA We have heard the evidence from members of the then Crisis Committee. Did you get a visit from a Crisis Committee? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not get a visit from a Crisis Committee, I got a visit from church leaders. Various church leaders and they didn't come on the same day. MR SEMENYA Was there a concern raised about the young men at one point by the church leaders? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR SEMENYA What was your reaction to that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My reaction was when our family Doctor and a close friend of the family, Dr Motlana, came and expressed these concerns and said that the church actually wanted these children, because they were believed to have been forcibly removed and forcibly staying at my place, I then handed them over to him. MR SEMENYA At this point, which house were you staying in? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was in Diepkloof. MR SEMENYA And why had you left Orlando West? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My house had been burnt down in Orlando West. MR SEMENYA Did you know why it was burnt down? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I didn't know why it was burnt down, until there were enquiries and we heard publicly that it was burnt because of the boys who were staying at my place. MR SEMENYA Was Rev Chikane responsible in any form around that time with the house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Rev Chikane actually came the very same day the house was burnt down. I had been at University, I was studying at the time. On our return with Zinzi, we were then confronted with this, the house was burnt down, and Rev Chikane came to see us at my office which I had in Orlando. MR SEMENYA Can you help us with the context here. How was it that various young people would come and stay at your house during those days? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Various youths came to seek refuge in my house. Originally when I returned from Brandfort I found a state of chaos within the community, youths were fighting amongst each other and these were youth organisations, democratic youth organisations. It was SACO and SOSCO I remember very well. They were fighting with gangsters and I brought them around a table to discuss those problems. And that is how they came to stay at my house. They were on the run from the police for one thing or another. MR SEMENYA And we have already heard there was then a decision to form a football team? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, they took that decision to form a football team and they informed me about it. MR SEMENYA Did they approach you about the outfits and tracksuits for the football team? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is how in fact they came to report to me. They wanted my assistance in so far as getting them football uniforms. They didn't have resources of their own. They were youths who had been displaced in their homes and from the schools. MR SEMENYA Did you attend any of their soccer games? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I do not play soccer, I didn't attend any of their soccer games. I do recollect though attending the first game they played in Orlando West. MR SEMENYA Then we know there was a time when there were concerns about the activities of the Mandela United Football Club. Did you discuss this matter with your then husband? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, he did discuss it with me. MR SEMENYA And what was the decision about the football team? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He instructed me to dissolve the football team. MR SEMENYA And what did you do? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did just that. I told the boys that the instruction from Robben Island was that, from Pollsmoor was that the football team must be dissolved. MR SEMENYA What became of the tracksuits and the jerseys? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not take them back because they had already been using them and they were not using them only to play soccer. They just used to wear them. MR SEMENYA We saw even Jerry Richardson had one of the tracksuits during these hearings, would you know how he came of this tracksuit? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have no idea. I suppose it was part of the public exercise to play to the gallery of the international media. MR SEMENYA Let us now talk about another area which is the unfortunate death of Dr Asvat. What was your relationship with him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had a very close relationship with Dr Asvat. He was not only my Doctor when I was in Brandfort, he visited me frequently in Brandfort and he was the only Doctor who ran clinics, community clinics for me in Brandfort. He volunteered that service because he said he was holding a health desk within AZAPO. MR SEMENYA How did the information about his death strike you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA How did it? MR SEMENYA How did the information about his death strike you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was deeply shocked and very saddened. MR SEMENYA We have heard here the evidence of the killers, Dlamini and Mbatha who on one version would say that they committed the murder on Dr Asvat at your instructions. Had you met Mbatha before? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I actually saw them for the first time here. MR SEMENYA Had you met Dlamini before? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had never met any of them. MR SEMENYA And around this event, the suggestions and insinuations were that you would have probably resisted some form of criminal prosecution because there were allegations which were made by these two people at the time of their arrest. Did you have any contact with the machinery of the criminal justice system to influence their decision one way or the other? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I did not. When these allegations started surfacing, I then contacted my lawyers and advised them that this was happening and there were media reports to that effect. I then went to them and instructed them to advise whoever was spreading these rumours, that if they had any case against me, I should be charged. MR SEMENYA Speaking about being charged and going back a little to the death of Stompie. Did you have an occasion to be told by say Mr Mufamadi that they had suspicions that Katiza was an informer? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not at all. I was shocked actually when I learnt here in this forum, that Sydney Mufamadi had this information at his disposal. MR SEMENYA If you were advised at the time that there was a suspicion that he is an informer, how would you have handled the situation? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would have handled the situation differently. I would have had to rebuke various actions I had taken to try and resolve these rumours, the question of these rumours and perceptions. MR SEMENYA We have also heard that the criminal investigations around the death of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat were re-opened. Were you ever in discussion with the Minister for Safety and Security around these issues? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was similarly shocked to learn that not only was my own colleague, Sydney Mufamadi holding that knowledge that there was this process in place. I was shocked to learn that he was proceeding with these investigations without even just the courtesy of advising a colleague and a political colleague for that matter, that there was this problem and not asking me to try and help him resolve it. I would have been free to explain to him whatever explanation he would have wanted from me. MR SEMENYA Were there any occasion or opportunity for him to request a statement from you if he had wanted to? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He would have obtained a statement from me and much more than that, as much cooperation as he would have wanted from me, in relation to this matter. MR SEMENYA Just as a matter of tidying up that aspect, there was a statement now we know, issued by the Crisis Committee. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Issued by? MR SEMENYA Issued by the Crisis Committee. Did you confront the Minister about that statement? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I did. We were in the workshop of COSATU and the ANC and Mufamadi was sitting next to me when I confronted him with the information which was all over the papers at that point. I asked him about the statement which was referred to in the media. I asked him if he knew anything in fact about the paper which was supposed to have been sent to Lusaka. His response to me was that didn't I recollect that there was no longer a Crisis Committee at that point. MR SEMENYA When you discussed it with Mr Makoena, he confirms that, did you people have the actual statement? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, we were referring to what was contained in the media. We did not have any statement before us and all, when I heard what he said here, I can only presume there was confusion about the papers and we were talking at cross-purposes. MR SEMENYA Jerry Richardson says you ordered the killing of Stompie. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is ludicrous and the worst lunacy. MR SEMENYA When do you know for the first time about the death of Stompie? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I learnt of Stompie's death in the media, round about the time that whole thing exploded in the papers. MR SEMENYA Shall we talk a little now about Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. What was your contact with Lolo Sono? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My contact with Lolo Sono was based on his relationship with Tebogo, one of the cadres I placed in Jerry Richardson's house. MR SEMENYA What was his function, Lolo Sono, in relation to Tebogo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was my courier. MR SEMENYA What does that mean? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was a go-between between myself and that particular unit. I could not communicate with that unit directly. They were guerillas and they were underground and of course I was the obvious person who would be targeted by the police and they would know if I was openly communicating with the cadres. MR SEMENYA And we now know that the two cadres were killed in Jerry Richardson's house. Why did you send him there? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was my courier and we needed to communicate with Tebogo and it was in fact Tebogo who needed to communicate with him. MR SEMENYA Now let me tidy up this one aspect first. Why did you ask Richardson to house Tebogo and Sipho? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I asked Richardson to house them because Tebogo had grown very concerned about his stay with his uncle, whom he said was Mr Sono. He said he was worried about his security and safety there and asked me to remove him. MR SEMENYA Did you know at the time that Richardson was a police informer? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had no idea. MR SEMENYA On the day that the two cadres were killed in Richardson's house, did you see Lolo Sono at all? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had picked up Lolo from his home and had him dropped near Mzimhlope where Richardson was staying and where Tebogo was. MR SEMENYA Did you see them ever again? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have never seen them, I have never seen him again. MR SEMENYA Did you know the friend, Shabalala Siboniso? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I don't know that person. MR SEMENYA Richardson says he killed these two gentlemen on your instruction? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is ridiculous. MR SEMENYA Now, can I put to you the various allegations and or statements that have come during these proceedings and the closed Section 29 hearings? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR SEMENYA There was evidence by Phumsile Dlamini that you would have assaulted her, because of your jealousy of her then boyfriend who we can't trace now. What is your response? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I regard that statement as totally ludicrous. MR SEMENYA In fact I must say that Jerry Richardson, yesterday on the same version says you instead intervened when this young lady was hit and you ordered that she must be taken to a place of safety. Did you hear that evidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard that evidence, as I heard lots of things for the first time said here. MR SEMENYA Mr Nicodemus Sono said the last time he saw his son, he was in a vehicle, in a kombi, wherein you were a passenger. What is your reaction to this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is true that he last saw his son with me in that kombi when I went to collect him to take him to Tebogo. MR SEMENYA He states that at that time, Lolo Sono was injured? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have no idea why he is making up that fabrication, safe to say I suppose, he is on this band wagon to lead this false fabrications. MR SEMENYA John Morgan also testified and I think the import of his evidence is that when he supported a particular position in the Supreme court, he was laying to protect you. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would have never needed to be protected by that type of character of the John Morgan quality. MR SEMENYA Who was John Morgan and what was your relationship with him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA John Morgan is a neighbour and he is one of those neighbours who would come home, almost every day whenever he wasn't doing something, and he was also a driver. So whenever I needed to be driven around, sometimes, I requested him if Jakes was not available. MR SEMENYA And would he drive you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I did request him to drive me now and again for various errands. MR SEMENYA Then we heard the evidence of Xoliswa Falati that maybe to summarise it would be the best thing to do, that there was a Disciplinary Committee at the residence where you stayed? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard of that Disciplinary Committee for the first time in the in camera hearing. MR SEMENYA That there was a register on which all the complaints of members of the community would be entered. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I know of no such a register. MR SEMENYA That you and your daughter Zinzi would then preside over this hearings? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As you have heard in these proceedings, whenever it suited whatever agenda, my daughter's name is dragged in at random in the most ridiculous of evidences I have ever heard. MR SEMENYA How old was Zinzi at that time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Zinzi was born in 1960. MR SEMENYA Now, did you know Maxwell Madondo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I knew Maxwell Madondo. He was one of the boys that came with a group from Natal. MR SEMENYA Did you have anything to do with the killing of Maxwell Madondo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA How could I have anything to do with that killing? I saw the first reports which purported to link me even to his death. That was one of the boys I placed in school, he was attending school in Orlando West. MR SEMENYA On the day of his death, according to the information you have, where was he from? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was from school, from what I learnt. MR SEMENYA And around this event, was the burning of the house of Mrs Chili. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard so. MR SEMENYA Did you order anybody to burn the house of Mrs Chili? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Why would I order the burning of the house of Dudu Chili? I had absolutely nothing against her. I hadn't seen her for years and when I did know her, she is one of the women I had worked closely with. I had great respect for her. MR SEMENYA Did you know that you were associated with the burning of the house by any means? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I saw that in the media. MR SEMENYA Did Mrs Chili come and speak to you about the allegation that her son is being threatened? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, she did not. MR SEMENYA Do you know anything that there was a decision to kill her son because he is refusing to play for the Mandela United Football Club? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That logically sounds very ridiculous to me. I know nothing about it and I don't know of incidents where boys were forced to join the club. That was not my understanding of how they functioned. MR SEMENYA Then Ma'am, we have also heard the evidence of Paul Erasmus around the disinformation that was circulated around the time. What do you know about this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At that time, I did not have official information about STRATCOM. All I knew at that time, was that there was this machinery used by the State to discredit the African National Congress and that I had been targeted for that. MR SEMENYA What type of stories were made in the media about you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA There was very negative reporting. As a matter of fact, the negative reporting which started then has culminated to where we are today. That is why when no one owned the document which purported from the Crisis Committee, I personally believed that it had STRATCOM connections because we knew, at least I knew at the time, that there were reporters who alleged to be working with the police, who were in fact planted by the police, by the Security Branch in the media. MR SEMENYA Was there any truth about these allegations and stories that were written about you for instance ... (tape ends) MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Reporters like Thandi Khubule, reporters like Norma Venda, who were alleged to be associated with the police at that time. I then concluded that they must be STRATCOM reports. MR SEMENYA Well, I must put it that was there any truth to the allegation that you would have had a relationship with the Archbishop? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I hope he didn't hear that. It is as ludicrous as it sounds now. There were pamphlets all over Soweto and a large number of them, dumped in my house which was under construction at the time. There was a photograph of myself and him. I think it was one of the occasions when I attended a meeting and he hugged me as he does here every day. MR SEMENYA Let us talk about Lerothodi Ikaneng. Did you order that he must be killed? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I gave no such an order, it is ludicrous to suggest that. MR SEMENYA Now, part of the explanation which is offered for the killing of Dr Asvat, is that he would have been killed because he had advised you that the medical condition of Stompie required him to be taken to hospital. Was there such a discussion between you and the Doctor? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Evidence has been led here by the very people who are supposed to have been subjected to these atrocities, by myself. They themselves have confirmed that they were not seen by Dr Asvat. I did not take any of those boys to Dr Asvat, nor did he come home to visit them and examine them. MR SEMENYA And there was an allegation of an altercation between you and Dr Asvat, is this correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is one of those hallucinations I have heard here for the first time. MR SEMENYA I beg your pardon? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is one of those hallucinations I have heard here for the first time. I could have never entered into any arguments with Dr Asvat. MR SEMENYA Do you know Vincent Siphako? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have heard here that Vincent Siphako is the person I knew as comrade V. MR SEMENYA He would have died in a car accident? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. Comrade V died in a car accident. MR SEMENYA It is said that his death was then revenged, I think that is the connotation that comes, by the members of the Mandela United Football Club. Do you know anything about this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is the most ridiculous suggestion I heard here. Firstly he had no direct communication with the boys who were in my premises, except those who were couriers. MR SEMENYA We have also heard the evidence of Thamisa Tswayo. Did you know him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I do not know him. MR SEMENYA Phumsile Dlamini, the lady who testified and said you had assaulted her, did you know her? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I recollected seeing her face when I saw her here, otherwise I did not know her, so I did not even remember her face when her name was put across to me. MR SEMENYA The evidence of Pelo Mekgwe, he is one of the gentlemen that was with you at a press conference, can you tell us what were the circumstances, how did you make contact with him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He telephoned me from the base in Port Elizabeth. He said that he was very concerned about the reports he was seeing in the media and he wanted to be put through to my lawyers, to assist me in clearing those perceptions. At that stage, I think it was in all the papers, that I was to be subpoenaed by the Truth Commission. MR SEMENYA And part of the rumour that was circulating at the time, is that you would have facilitated his escape out of the country. Did you do this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not do so, as he testified himself, to that effect. MR SEMENYA And speaking about leaving the country, did you help Katiza Cebekhulu to evade the cause of justice and leave the country? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I did not. MR SEMENYA Katiza said at length to be describing how you would have made an ultimatum to him that if he did not leave the country, you would kill him. What is your response to this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As far as I am concerned, Katiza is a mental patient and he would have hallucinated like that, there was nothing like that. That is pure fabrication on his part. MR SEMENYA And in pertinent details he says that he saw you stab Stompie with a object, twice. What is your response to that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well the murderer of Stompie testified himself to the effect that that is ludicrous. MR SEMENYA What was your understanding of the circumstances that led to the mass democratic movement distance, making a national call that democratic formations must distance themselves from you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What is the question? MR SEMENYA What was your understanding of issues at the time when the MDM called that democratic formations must distance themselves from you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My understanding was that in fact they based that on the perceptions surrounding myself and the Football Club at the time. MR SEMENYA Do you know Susan Maripa? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I do not know Susan Maripa. MR SEMENYA Peter Dlamini? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know Peter Dlamini. MR SEMENYA Speaking about this, how did you address the young men that were staying in your house? Was it with their full names and if not, why not? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I addressed them with their nicknames for their own security. As I have stated earlier most of them were on the run from the Security Forces for one thing or another and it was safer for all of us to know them by nickname. MR SEMENYA And were there any MK's that were staying in the house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA How could any cadre stay in a police station. My house was virtually a police station. MR SEMENYA What was the arrangement at the house though, were any of these young men living inside the house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, they lived in their own back room, a little hut which was there. MR SEMENYA And did they leave and come on your instructions as we are told ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Excuse me, if you could just help, sorry to interrupt you, saying the house which - it will be just a help if you said Orlando West, the new or the old and Diepkloof. MR SEMENYA Thank you Chairperson. Maybe let us describe the houses. The Orlando West house, what type of house was this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It was originally a two roomed house which I have partitioned and it has back rooms. MR SEMENYA Where was Zinzi's bedrooms? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It was one of the back rooms. One of the back rooms. MR SEMENYA One of the back rooms? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, back, back rooms. Right at the back. There is the house and then there are back rooms. MR SEMENYA Is the back rooms separate in terms of structure from the main house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is a totally separate structure. MR SEMENYA And there is reference to a place called Lusaka. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, it was where the boys stayed at the back of Zinzi's room. They built a shack there. MR SEMENYA Did you use to go into this shack, Lusaka? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, not at all, it was just a boys' room. MR SEMENYA Would the boys come and stay and live in the main house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, not at all. They stayed completely away from the main house, at the back. MR SEMENYA Now, let us talk about the house in Diepkloof. Where would the boys stay? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA There are also back rooms there, and they stayed in those back rooms. MR SEMENYA How big are the walls around the property? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The whole property, it is hardly fenced actually. The property, there is just a wall that divides me from the two neighbours on the side. The front hasn't got a wall. MR SEMENYA We understand that is where the Thabiso, Pelo and the Mono's were, is that right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR SEMENYA And we are told that they were held at that house against their will. How difficult even at the level of conjecture, would it have been for anyone of them to escape? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As I have stated, there is no wall in front. There are the two walls that divide the house from the neighbours. And access is very easy to the house. MR SEMENYA How high are the walls? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA About this height. MR SEMENYA Is there a gate? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, in front there is a small gate where we entered. MR SEMENYA Is it locked? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, in fact it is broken and is has been broken ever since. MR SEMENYA And speaking about the house, there is a sliding door at the back next to the jacuzzi? Was that sliding door in a working condition? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, it still isn't in a working condition even now. MR SEMENYA Was it in a working condition when you first went to that house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, it was not. MR SEMENYA Tholi Dlamini, did you know him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I knew Tholi. MR SEMENYA Do you know the circumstances that led to his death? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA We heard that he had been killed by Sizwe. MR SEMENYA Was it on your instructions? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA How could that have been the case? What would have led to that? It wasn't on my instructions. MR SEMENYA There are a number of allegations which have been made and counter-allegations. Let us just attempt to deal with a few of those. When do you for the first time meet Senior Superintendent Moodley? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA In this forum. I met him for the first time here. MR SEMENYA We have heard that he would have been coming to your house frequently. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is one of those ludicrous fabrications. MR SEMENYA Did you influence the police investigations at all? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Which police investigations? MR SEMENYA That Moodley, Hesslinga and Dempsey would have been involved with? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA But I met the man here for the first time, how could I have any remote influence on him. MR SEMENYA Had you met Senior Superintendent Dempsey? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I had. MR SEMENYA What were the circumstances? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was the Investigating Officer in my trial, the kidnapping matter in relation to Stompie. MR SEMENYA Did he confront you with the information that he had that you would have been associated with any of those criminal conducts? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard for the first time here. MR SEMENYA Would he have had an opportunity to take a statement from you if he had elected to? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Dempsey had no problem whatsoever in locating me, whether I was out of town, he knew, he had resources to communicate with me. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I would stop here for the witness to take questions. The tenor of most of the allegations have been precisely that, just allegations for now. CHAIRPERSON Mr Semenya, you are quite certain you do want to, as it were, rest your case? MR SEMENYA Yes, I am certain. We would nevertheless re-examine should certain areas arise which give more concern than what I thought were the pertinent issues. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you very much. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA . MR SEMENYA I might indicate Chairperson, that our understanding is there has already been a questioning in terms of the closed hearings. The record of those questionings have become public knowledge now and it is in the possession of everybody including the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Hanif? MR VALLY Thank you Archbishop. Maybe I should just sort myself out, maybe we can just adjourn for a short while, I really thought this was going to run much longer. Is it possible to stand for about five, ten minutes Archbishop? CHAIRPERSON Well, if you say so. I think so. We will resume at ten o'clock. MR VALLY Ten o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Your five minutes is long. All right, ten o'clock. COMMISSION ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Do you people understand English? Thank you, please settle. Thank you very much. Mr Vally. MR VALLY Thank you Archbishop. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, let me start off with the Mandela United Football Club. You acknowledge that the Mandela United Football Club wasn't just the soccer team which originally started, but also consisted of a number of young men who moved with the soccer team and moved generally with the people who visited your house regularly, in their tracksuits, in their uniforms accompanying you to funerals, marches, rallies, whatever. Do you acknowledge that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY Do you acknowledge that the Mandela United Football Club was a source of controversy within Soweto? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That subsequently happened. MR VALLY When you say subsequently happened, can you tell us in which year? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I wouldn't remember the exact years. I think it is common knowledge. MR VALLY Do you remember which year that the soccer club originated, which year it was established? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think it could have been around 1985, 1986, I am not sure of the exact year. MR VALLY It was after you came back from Brandfort? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA When I returned from Brandfort. MR VALLY You advised us that the Club had been disbanded on instructions from your husband when you saw him in prison. Can you tell us a date? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Chairperson, can I tell you what? MR VALLY The date please? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Oh, I wouldn't remember the exact date, but I think it could have been 1986, 1987, around those years. MR VALLY Why I am asking is that subsequently your young men in uniform travelling with you, driven by Morgan, were seen at other venues, are you aware of that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was subsequently aware of the fact that they were using these uniforms. MR VALLY And travelling with you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, at times I did go along with them. MR VALLY So on what basis do you say that the Club was disbanded when you were still moving around with them? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA On what basis? MR VALLY Do you say the Club was disbanded? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The Club was disbanded Chairperson. The disbanding of the Club did not necessarily mean the withdrawal of the uniform. Regrettably I did not confiscate those uniforms after the Club was disbanded and that is just what happened. MR VALLY Were young people still staying in the back yard in the rooms? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They continued, some of them continued staying in the back yard. I wouldn't be able to state exactly which ones. MR VALLY Do you recall the Asvat funeral in February 1989? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I do. MR VALLY Do you recall that you arrived there in the what you called the bus, driven by John Morgan with a number of young men in uniform, tracksuits from the Mandela United Football Club logo emblazon there on? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. And what ultimately happened in fact those were the only decent clothes those children had. I did not have resources to buy them clothes. MR VALLY So these were the young men who were still staying on your premises, who were still wearing the uniform, who were still moving around as a group and they still accompanied you to various occasions? Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY Can you explain to us why in July 1988 instructions were given to Attorney Krish Naidoo to bring an urgent application to court regarding a football match which was supposed to have been played between Mandela United Football Club and the UDF trialists? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon, I don't know of that. I don't recollect what you are talking about. MR VALLY Do you recall there was a football match which had been arranged at the farm or the residence of the Harrisons, I believe it is, Miranda Harris and the film maker I believe he is, do you recall this? Roger Harris? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I honestly have no recollection of that. MR VALLY Because I have been advised that the counsel who was briefed in that manner, was Mr Dennis Kuny, instructed by Attorney Krish Naidoo. You were supposed to have played the UDF trialists team at the Delmas trialist team I should call it rather, would that help the matter, the Delmas trialist team? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR VALLY Messrs Popu Molefe, Terror Lekota, Mosh Chikane. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA With hindsight that would have been very nice, I just don't recollect that Chairperson. MR VALLY You don't recollect at all that there was an application plan to court? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, honestly I don't recollect that at all. MR VALLY Well, that happened in July 1988. All right, so we've got the Club disbanded, but we've still got the youngsters staying in the house, still travelling in a group with you and still wearing the tracksuits as late as at least February 1989. How long did this state of affairs go on? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I wouldn't be able to put any exact date or calendar. MR VALLY At which stage did you become aware that the young people staying at your house were engaged in what some people called, thuggery? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA An incident occurred to my recollection when the Daliwonga students are supposed to have kidnapped two of the boys in the premises. But I subsequently learnt of that much, much later. MR VALLY You initially in your Section 29 inquiry advised us that you weren't aware of the origin of what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee? Do you still maintain that position? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, there may have been a misunderstanding on the particular wording. I tried to explain here that the leaders who came after the banning of the house, the leaders who came to Diepkloof were not coming there as the Crisis Committee, that is why we see the Rev Bangulas were not part of that Committee. And what had happened thereafter was in fact that during that period, the Crisis Committee acquired another stature which was now supposed to be in conflict with the Mandela family. And there was no Crisis Committee formed to deal with the problems of the Mandela family in that regard, in relation to the boys, in relation to the death of Stompie. The Crisis Committee which was dubbed, a Crisis Committee by the media, was a group of those leaders, community leaders. MR VALLY We will come back to the Stompie issue. We are still busy now with the burning of the house in Orlando West. This happened in July 1988? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that may be correct. MR VALLY Did people come to you under the coordination of Rev Frank Chikane, we are talking specifically about the people you saw here, Mr Sydney Mufamadi, Mr Aubrey Makoena, Mr (indistinct) and Dominee Beyers Naude. Did they come and see you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You mean in Diepkloof? MR VALLY No, wherever you were staying after your house was burnt down? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, they came to see us in Diepkloof. MR VALLY Did they help you and assist you in rebuilding your house in Orlando West? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That process had started immediately after we left Orlando. MR VALLY Are you aware that they asked you, having investigated the matter and interviewed people from Daliwonga, to arrange for the boys not to live on your premises any longer? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I understand there were such efforts. I could not have a direct recollection of those events which happened at the time. MR VALLY Do you recall that they asked you to move the boys off the premises because of the activities that the boys were engaged in? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They requested us to remove the boys, there was no alternative accommodation to my recollection, which was arranged by Aubrey Makoena or Sydney, for that matter. MR VALLY Our advice is they were willing to find alternative arrangements, and one of the reasons that you refused, and this is what they stated here as well as in their written report, a copy of which we gave to your counsel, that one of the reasons that you refused to do that was that you felt you needed them for security purposes? In other words as a bodyguard? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, that was ridiculous Mr Chairman. MR VALLY So what reason did you give them for refusing to remove them from your premises? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It wasn't an actual removal. They themselves did not state that they provided any alternative accommodation. That process in fact just fell along the way if I remember correctly. There were no serious efforts to place these boys in any particular accommodation elsewhere. MR VALLY Can you tell me why Mr Nelson Mandela, in your visit to him at Pollsmoor, asked you I believe you said it was in 1987 if I am not mistaken, to disband the Club? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, he had heard the same rumours. He had heard the same perceptions I understood from him, and he was very concerned about what he was hearing, not from me, about the Club. MR VALLY So in effect when you say that the Club was disbanded, it wasn't disbanded? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It was disbanded to my knowledge. What happened was that the boys continued to wear the uniforms. MR VALLY The same youngsters are staying there, you have told us the Club was more than just a Club of people playing soccer, they are still staying on your premises. In 1987 Mr Nelson Mandela asked you to disband the Club, you say you have disbanded the Club. In July 1988 because of the Club's activities, your house is burnt down. On what basis can you say that the Club was disbanded? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The Club which played matches was disbanded. That did not stop new youths coming in and out of the yard and no one could vouch that the same youths who are supposed to have done those things in 1988, were necessarily the same youths who were there in 1987. The youths were in and out of my house. MR VALLY Did you have no control over your premises? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA There was no need to control that. They led their own lives at the back and I had my own problems to deal with. MR VALLY I have just given you a reason why you had to control that, because your husband asked you to disband the Club, because of these allegations of thuggery around the Club and because from the thuggery it led to your house being attacked and burnt in 1988, in July. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No evidence has been brought here concretely stating that boy so and so who was staying at your house, raped such and such a girl on such and such a date, those were the perceptions we are dealing with and those were the perceptions we are still dealing with right now. MR VALLY Are you still maintaining Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that no evidence has been brought forward after all these days of hearings, that the boys who were associated with the Mandela United Football Club, the boys who were staying at the back of your premises, have not been engaging in criminal activities of whatever kind? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As you have correctly pointed out, who were associated. There isn't a single case here where a boy who was directly staying in my house, was involved in rapes and was involved in these type of evidence which was led here. If that had been the case, I would have acted. MR VALLY Let's start. Was Jerry Richardson, as the coach of the Football Club, staying on your premises after his house was attacked? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY He is serving a life sentence for assault, murder, kidnapping and attempted murder? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY Was Oupa Alex Seheri ever staying at your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, how could Oupa Seheri stay in my house? He was a trained cadre from Lusaka. He did not stay in my house. MR VALLY I see. Did he visit your house regularly? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He did visit the house and he was not seeing me directly, he was communicating with whoever he was using at the time. It did happen that cadres used some of the boys who were in the premises as their couriers. MR VALLY Was he coming to your premises? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was coming to the back rooms. MR VALLY If he was coming to the back rooms and your house was a police station, as you put it, wasn't he being totally irresponsible? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, their safety and security was entirely their matter. I did not have a mandate to look after their safety. If he was that careless to continue coming to that house, that was not my responsibility. MR VALLY But you advised us that you were engaged both in overt and covert activities for the ANC, that you were acting for the ANC and acting with MK? You in fact went so far as to say that you reported to Chris Hani, this is at the Section 29 inquiry? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY Wasn't this irresponsible of you to allow a trained MK cadre to come in and out of your house, back rooms or wherever, wouldn't that have put you into danger? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Okay, can I repeat again. I did not hold myself responsible for the activities of the cadres, once I have done whatever job I was required to do of them. And the fact that they were communicating with the boys at the back, was none of my concern. MR VALLY I see. You know of course that Oupa Seheri is in prison for murder? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon? MR VALLY That he is in prison for murder? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, he is. MR VALLY You also know that the murder which he is supposed to have committed, that he came back to your house to collect a firearm? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I subsequently heard of that evidence here in fact. I didn't know these details until I think you mentioned it, something like that in the in camera hearing. MR VALLY Weren't you at the trial? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon? MR VALLY Were you not at the trial? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I did not attend the trial. MR VALLY Are you aware that John Morgan who you say was a neighbour who helped you and who said he was your driver, which evidence was also given at his trial, was found guilty of being an accessory to kidnapping? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Morgan appeared with me in that matter, the kidnapping matter. MR VALLY So you are aware of that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR VALLY Are you aware of Charles Bobo Zwane? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I knew him as Bobo. MR VALLY You confirmed the last time that he stayed on occasion at your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He did come in and out of my house. In fact he is very near, his home is very near my place. MR VALLY And he is serving a term of imprisonment for nine murders? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, he is. He cried, he broke down and cried here and he said he knew nothing about the other murders. He knew something about the three murders. MR VALLY He also talked about a shebeen incident where a hand grenade was used because he got into a fight. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, Mr Chairman, that was during the days of the underground struggle. There is nothing peculiar about that. MR VALLY It is very peculiar when an MK weapon smuggled into a country like a hand grenade is thrown into a shebeen because of a bar brawl. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are not suggesting that had anything to do with me? MR VALLY I am telling you that the man used to stay at your house, which you have confirmed. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He did not stay in my house, he was in and out of my house and of course, he had stated here that he was not even a member of the Club. He did not play soccer. MR VALLY We have agreed on the outset, when we started off, that we are not talking simply about soccer rites, we were talking about a group of young men who hung around the back of your house, and who accompanied you on various occasions. That is what we are talking about? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are not suggesting for God's sake, that I would be responsible for the actions of those youths when they left my premises, went back to their homes, that I would be held responsible for that? MR VALLY Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, you heard Mr Zwane himself say that he was sitting in Zinzi's bedroom, which I accept is the back room of your Orlando house, with a Scorpion machine pistol in his bag and Oupa Seheri arrived and gave him a crash course in using an AK47 and how they exchanged guns and when Oupa Seheri came back to fetch him, you heard all that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard all that. MR VALLY And he left with Oupa Seheri with two hand grenades, you heard that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The fact that they were that careless to do that, cannot possibly be attributed to me. MR VALLY But you were an MK operative and you allowed such irresponsible activity to take place in your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA How did I allow that Mr Chairman? MR VALLY That you did not take steps because people had been complaining to you from Mr Nelson Mandela himself to the Mandela Crisis Committee to a wake up call where you house is burnt, and you still let these youths live at the back of your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Where was the Crisis Committee complaining about a hand grenade held by Charles, long before the house was burnt down, what sort of logic is that? MR VALLY Let's not confuse issues. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, you are saying that the Crisis Committee was in existence before it actually existed. All those events occurred before the house was burnt down, so there was no Crisis Committee. You are confused. MR VALLY I am giving you ... CHAIRPERSON Order please. May I just warn you again that is conduct I will not tolerate. Let me just let you be aware of that that you have a perfect right to applaud if I give you the permission. But you are also perfectly free to do what you want to do outside of here, okay. Thank you very much. MR VALLY I am giving you, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I am clearly setting out a whole series of incidents. I am setting out a direct instruction from Mr Nelson Mandela, I am setting out wake up calls regarding the burning down of your house, I am setting out what the Mandela Crisis Committee advised you to do. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Thereafter yes. MR VALLY After your house was burnt down? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR VALLY After all this, because Mandela Crisis Committee was formed, it was coming to you after July 1988, up to February 1989 you are still moving around with a group of young men staying at the back of the house, and you still tell me that you had no control over them? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I saw no reason whatsoever to do that at that stage, that was in fact based on the same perceptions, distortions which have brought us here. MR VALLY Are you saying that the complaints and the allegations and the very strong statements made about the actions of the Mandela United Football Club and the youth associated with them, are still just perceptions? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The period you are talking about, yes, they were. MR VALLY Today? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You can say that after the so-called kidnapping of the children, yes of course, there was a problem. MR VALLY I am talking about today. Do you see this as just perceptions or do you see it as having been a serious problem? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You were referring to those perceptions of that time? MR VALLY All right, I am talking about today? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Of course there were problems. MR VALLY Very serious problems? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, there were problems. MR VALLY Let me go on. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Lives were lost. MR VALLY We have talked about Charles Zwane being sentenced to imprisonment for nine murders. Do you remember Wilson Sibilwane? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Do I remember him? MR VALLY yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, of course I do. MR VALLY Was he one of the youths who used to come to your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was one of the youths who actually formed the Football Club. MR VALLY Do you know that he is serving a sentence for armed robbery? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He is not serving any sentence for armed robbery now, he is actually in the audience here. This is why I say let us get our facts straight. MR VALLY Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, please don't play around. You know he has just got amnesty for that. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not playing around. MR VALLY Are you aware he got amnesty for that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA And I will not tolerate you speaking to me like that. I will not. I am trying to give you answers to the best of my ability. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me Mrs Madikizela-Mandela I don't want to clear this place, but if you continue to do that, I will have no other option. I don't want you outside of here, but this hearing is going to be carried out conducted with dignity. And I am in charge here. I don't want to use the powers that I have. If you do that again, I will have both of you sitting at the back there as I can see, and maybe innocent people involved, but I will clear that section. Please don't, I kept saying tempt me. I want you to remain here, I want you to be here. But this has to be carried, conducted in a dignified fashion as it has up to now. Do you understand that? Thank you. MR VALLY Thank you Archbishop. Are you telling me that you were not aware that Mr Sibilwane who has now got amnesty, was in prison for armed robbery? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I didn't say I wasn't aware. I thought you said at present he is serving a sentence for armed robbery, that is why I said he is in the audience here. He was serving a sentence, the details of which are not really known to me. He could have been serving a sentence for robbery like many other hundreds of youths who are doing so. MR VALLY Are you aware that Absolom Badontsela is presently serving a 12 year sentence for armed robbery? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I understand he is in prison. MR VALLY Are you aware that he was one of the youths who was associated with or living at the back of your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am aware he was associated with the youth there. MR VALLY Now, I have set out a whole long list of youths who had been convicted of very serious criminal conduct. Do you not think that the advice you were given by Mr Nelson Mandela in 1987, by the Mandela Crisis Committee in 1988, and I would assume by other persons to disband the Mandela United Football Club which meant that the youths who were staying at the back of your house, should not be allowed to stay at the back of your house any longer? Why did you not take this advice? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did take the advice to disband the Club and that is my final answer Mr Chairman. MR VALLY And when did you take this advice? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As I have stated, when I did return from prison and I told them to disband the Club. The fact that they continued wearing uniforms and continued with their kind of conduct which was alleged then, outside of my house, cannot be attributed to me. MR VALLY Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you exercise no control at all over what happened in your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not have any direct control over those youths who came to seek refuge in my place. MR VALLY MRS MADIKIZELA MANDELA That document was not compiled in consultation with me. There are lots of (indistinct) in that document. There was never a serious confrontation between the Crisis Committee and ourselves to the extent that there was a definite refusal. What we did state at the time, was the boys were there and securing themselves. That is exaggerated distortion must be attributed to the people who drew that report. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: I just want to go back to the Seheri issue. The Seheri trial. I thought I heard you say that you were not at the trial. Did you say that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon. MR VALLY: I thought I heard you say you did not attend the (indistinct) trial? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible, because Thembiso had a relationship with Zinzi. It is possible, we did go to see Thembiso at the trial. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not attend the trial in full. I just can recall going to Thembiso at the trial. MR VALLY: Can I show you this article and confirm that you were in fact there or not? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: To attend you mean? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not to attend the trial. It was supposed to be State witnesses. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY Were you not worried that he used it to commit a murder? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I never suspected he would be involved in this. I could not have predicted actions of guerrillas. MR VALLY: You call that an action of a guerrilla? What happened there? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Harry. Harry was. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To my knowledge, there was no Disciplinary Committee. I also heard in that context that he tried to incriminate my daughter. The letters ANC was no longer carved by me as had been stated in the media, they were now attributed to Zinzi who honoured those fabrications, which were meant for his gallery(?) MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct. MR VALLY: Yet they would come regularly? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not monitor their movements. They came in and out to see the boys. They did not come to see me. MR VALLY: Even though it was a danger to your own operation? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, if I was aware, I would have taken precautions about MK Soldiers coming there. MR VALLY: Did you know Oupa Seheri? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I knew of Oupa Seheri. MR VALLY: Were you aware he was coming to your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: But I have responded to that question. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When he came. On that one occasion when he came to me, and that is how Thembiso must have known him. He came that once to me. MR VALLY: Do you know Sonwabo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes I do. MR VALLY Was he trained MK Guerrilla? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he was. MR VALLY Did he come to your house regularly? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Did he come to your house on occasion? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not on occasion, but he communicated with me when it was necessary for him to do so. MR VALLY: Did he come to the back of your house that you were aware of? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I certainly (indistinct) heard during these proceedings that he was coming to the back rooms. MR VALLY: I asked you previously, whether you know Vuyisile, also known as Ntshoshobo. In your evidence today, I believe you said you knew him as (indistinct). Also known as "V"? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, comrade "V". MR VALLY: Was he a trained MK (indistinct) MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes he was. MR VALLY: Was he coming to your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did contact me when it was necessary for him to do so. MR VALLY: When you say contact? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I mean visit me openly, and he come publicly to see me, but we had a way of communication. MR VALLY: Would he sneak to your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all. MR VALLY: To your backrooms? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all. MR VALLY: You have been given the statement made by Absolom Dumisale (indistinct), who was a secretary of the Football Club, have you not? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: "Between January and April 1987, I was still General Secretary, but I was MK instructions. My direct commander was (indistinct). Early in 1987 an incident occurred which lead to a raid at the Mandela house in Orlando West. During the raid, the Police found a Scorpion machine pistol in the green suitcase in the house of Zinzi Mandela. Zinzi was arrested, and subsequently found out later that the weapon was placed there by (indistinct). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall the incident. MR VALLY: Well clearly, the Secretary of the Football Club had quite close contact with another trained MK (indistinct). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Do you recall? We had an issue where we raised the issue about the intimidation of witnesses. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes. MR VALLY: And the name (indistinct) came up? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall that yes. MR VALLY: Is this the same (indistinct)? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is the same person. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, he was internally trained. MR VALLY: But he was an MK (indistinct)? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he was. MR VALLY And he was trained? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was one of those who were internally trained. MR VALLY: And he was staying at your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was staying at my house before the death of Tholi. MR VALLY MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I used to hear that kind of (indistinct) from the Security branch. MR VALLY Mr Morgan has testified that he was given armed training at your premises. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was given? MR VALLY: Training in usage of arms. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Morgan? MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Mr Jabu Javis Sithole said he was given a crash course in usage of an AK 47 in your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: We have had evidence that Sibuniso Shabalala was accused of being an informer. His whereabouts are still not known, or his body is yet to be found. We have evidence that Stompie Seipei was accused of having been an informer. His body has been found. All these people at some time had links to your house. We have had evidence that Tholi Dlamini who was shot dead by Sizwe Sithole, and he was linked to the Football Club. We have had evidence that (indistinct) was accused of being an informer, and some very serious attempts have been made on his life. Is it mere coincidence that all these people linked to either your residence, or to the Mandela Football Club, facing these accusations, either have disappeared, or have had serious attempts on their lives, or in fact, were killed? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Do you recall me asking you a question in your section 29 Inquiry where I put to you that Jerry Richardson, in whose house were two MK Guerrillas, placed there by you, his house is attacked by police, they are killed, as well as Serg. Pretorius, a policeman. He is detained from the 9th of November 1988, released on the 25th of November, 1988, and I put it to you - "Were you not suspicious of him?" Do you recall that question? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Well, let me just tell you what I told you. I asked you if you had made (indistinct) as you (indistinct). Did you institute any enquiry to how it came about that they were shot in that particular manner, your response was Your response: Are you not South African? The Chairperson: That was Mr Ntsebeza. (indistinct) for instance, Ms Sooka repeats that. Your response: How could I make enquiries about (indistinct)? Ms Sooka: Did you question Jerry Richardson about it? Your response: There was nothing to question Jerry Richardson about save to say that he was one of the victims. We assume he was one of the victims and it was very unfortunate that the police discovered that I have placed some people there like hundreds of other victims." Yet we know, that for a long time there had been newspaper articles suggesting that Mr Jerry Richardson was a police informer. A few months ago in this year, there was a long article in the Guardian and Weekly Mail even talking about the amount of money you were alleged to have been paid, but at the Section 29 Inquiry, that was your response. MR SEMENYA CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you may be able to explain. MR VALLY: The question in the context when it was first asked, was a man who is harbouring trained MK guerrillas in those times, in 1988, as two of them are killed in his house, fully armed, a Security branch policeman is killed in his house, is in detention from the 9th of November 1988, to the 25th of November 1988, and the question for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as an MK operative, as a very active political figure in her own right, were you not suspicious, did you not ask him any questions? Regarding Mr Jerry Richardson, against whom allegations were there, prior to section 29 Inquiry, prior to me posing the question, yet, your response was : "He was one of the victims." How do you explain that to us? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: I asked you a very specific question, and as a trained political activist, and someone who was an underground operative, I ask you a question page, 119, of the first Section 29 Inquiry. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is the question? MR VALLY: Is it not strange that Mr Jerry Richardson was detained for a very short period, not even prosecuted when two armed ANC cadres are killed in his house and a policeman is killed in an attack in his house. And then when Mr Semenya intervened. Mr Semenya said: " That question must be asked to the police who have the right to detain longer or have the right to prosecute. It can not be the problems of prior to know whether it is strange or not strange". My response was: "Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has got many years experience of dealing with Security forces. Mr Semenya intervened again. "Are we being called as an expert here Mr Chairman?" I went on. The chairperson rule - "I think it is a legitimate question." Mr Semenya intervenes again. "No, Mr Chairman, with respect, we will refuse to answer that question". And he justifies it by saying that it was opinion evidence I was asking for. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: In terms of the cross examining of (indistinct). You put to him that this Askari had returned and he was supplying information to you regarding Vlakplaas. It this correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Was this information conveyed to the ANC? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was to be conveyed to the ANC through him, but it did not reach the (indistinct). MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes. MR VALLY: Did he have another mission, which was to go outside the country, and contact the Press, and advise them that Stompie Seipei was in Botswana? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I could only assume that the reason why he was blown to pieces was that he knew that that was if publication, and he yet I see it in his statement. MR VALLY: I must say right upfront immediately, that these were statements obtained while you were under Section 29, and I certainly would not rely on any statements in terms of Section 29. I accept that. I want to show you copies of this, and you tell me if the handwriting is yours, or whether you recognised this writing. MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I wish we were privileged enough to have some of this documentation. MR VALLY: With respect, documents have been given to Mr Semenya. We gave Mr Semenya the documents when we received them from the police, which was very recently. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: CHAIRPERSON: COMMISSION ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: CHAIRPERSON: Hanif, are you ready? MR VALLY: Thank you chairperson. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: May I just correct it there. CHAIRPERSON: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Your question was? MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA : MR VALLY: When did this happen. When did he come to you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: You were sending him to Lusaka, to the ANC to report? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He actually came to request that we must facilitate his route back to Lusaka. MR VALLY: And was he staying at your house for a few months before that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, Mr Chairman, how could a person from Vlakplaas come and stay in my house, an Askari for that matter? MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, that is ridiculous, Mr Chairman. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did not stay in my house, but I did see him quite frequently when he wanted us to facilitate his route back to Lusaka. MR VALLY: Did he visit your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Fine, and you facilitated his route back to Lusaka? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes. MR VALLY: "The Sowetan has received four calls in two days from a man who gave his name as Johannes Magothca, claiming that Stompie was alive, and staying at the Dukwe Refugee Camp." MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MRS VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I had been given that information Mr Chairman. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I can imagine, they had problems in tracing her. But the information is still at my disposal as where you can look for her if you want to find her. You can still try and establish where she is. MR VALLY: I had no response from your attorneys, and if you can give me a response, it would be useful. However, the issue is this, this is a new allegation that Stompie was last seen at Protea Police Station before his body was found. You have previously told a journalist, Mr Serfontein, that Mr John Morgan has seen the body of Mr Stompie Seipei and said it was not the body of Stompie Seipei. You remember that allegation? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct. I believed at that stage that it was not the body of Stompie, and this was information obtained from Morgan. MR VALLY: Mr Morgan, as you heard denied that. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I mean, what I did not touch any important information - solicit that from Morgan personally. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct. MR VALLY: I need to know from you, regarding Stompie Seipei. I just want to know. Do you acknowledge, number one: that the body who was found and identified by his mother, and buried (indistinct) was that of Stompie Seipei? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, of course, that was never in dispute Mr Chairman. MR VALLY: Thank you. Do you acknowledge that he was last seen at your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true. From the evidence, I subsequently, it was subsequently learnt. MR VALLY: So the story of a Mrs Shabalala seeing him at the police station, is there any basis to it? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I said before that "in camera" hearing that you were free to establish the validity of that information, and the fact that you have not been able to ask about that information, is not my fault. I conveyed the information as much a possible. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true. MR VALLY: And I asked by whom he was taken away? And you say- Good God, how on earth would I have known that Mr Chairman?" I asked whether you knew he was taken away, you said - "Yes, that has been in the Court record. We have faced trial, Richardson had been on trial, he had been taken away from my house, and we have stated to you that we now have new evidence, that in fact, we can (indistinct) from the manse, and from the house, he was seen at Protea Police Station." MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct. MR VALLY: And I asked you how she knew who Stompie was, and your response was, you would have to get that information from her. My follow up was: "How did the information come to you?" And you said - "She mentioned that to me". My question was: "Did she contact you out of her own free will?" and you said - "Yes." And I asked you: "Can you give us the period when you got this information?" and I said - "that information from Mrs Shabalala". and you said: "Long before I got the actual (indistinct) actual (indistinct)." MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not aware that you have not had any response, because we tried to contact her. But I will give you the telephone number at my disposal. You are free to contact Mrs Shabalala yourself. MR VALLY: You have heard evidence in this Court from Mr Thabiso Mono. CHAIRPERSON: Which Court? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, here at Court? MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Do you really think I would bring Mekgwe here for him to testify against me? I brought Mekgwe to your attention because I believed he knows the truth, which truth he tried to attempt to state here, because he knew he was never assaulted by me. MR VALLY: So Mekgwe testified that he was in fact assaulted by you, he was talking the truth? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was not talking the truth. MR VALLY: So do specifically Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono, are you maintaining that they are lying? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In that regard, yes, I do. MR VALLY: Were they talking the truth when they said they were kidnapped from the manse against their will? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not believe that they were kidnapped. I still hold that view that according to my information, I was told that they got into the bus voluntarily. MR VALLY: Were you part of the plan to remove them from the manse? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA : MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No. MR VALLY: Okay. When your report was made to me that they were youths who were sexually abused, I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house. My question is, were you part of the plans to remove them from the manse? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I was not. MR VALLY: So this quote that I read of your maiden speech: "I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house." Why did you say that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In that context I must have meant to rescuing them from my house and giving them over to Dr Motlana. MR VALLY: Alright. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I still believe that Stompie was not an informer, and cannot believe that a man old enough to be his father would kill a child because he is alleged to be an informer. There must be another reason why Richardson killed that child. MR VALLY: Okay. You also have testimony from Katiza Cebekhulu that his allegations against Rev. Verryn were false. You have heard evidence from Thabiso Mono and from Pelo Mekgwe that there were no homosexual relationships with Rev. Verryn. At the criminal trial, (indistinct) said the same thing. Do you accept now that none of these boys were in any way involved sexually with Rev. Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY I just have one follow-up question to that. The report was brought to my attention, not when this youth got into this house, about October of last year, when I came about this problem Paul Verryn had with the children who were in his care. Paul Verryn has a very serious psychological problem. I do not understand why a man of his calibre and a Christian would continue sodomising black children. There is clear evidence here that Rev. Paul Verryn has ...(inaudible) the victims to a medical problem which he should have addressed quietly with his doctors." Now this was at a stage when youth who had been abducted already publicly stated that they were not in any way involved in any sexual activity, yet you repeated this statement. Could you advise us why? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: On my departure, Mr Chairman, that information had not been tested. That was my firm belief. They gained the information from the (indistinct) and I had no reason whatsoever to not believe her at that stage. MR VALLY: You were willing to repeat this statement on national television in America when you have the actual alleged victims denying it happened based on allegations brought to you by Mrs Falati? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I repeat, that that information on my side has not been tested. I have that view that children who went to seek refuge at the manse, were abused. That was the belief I had. MR VALLY: Let us move on to - you have told us that you denied taking part in any assault on the youngsters. That you do not know why the people made allegations, are lying. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I have stated that. MR VALLY: That you did not assault any of the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: You took Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Is that the card? MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: It possibly was the 30th. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: But the stamp says the 30th. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I noted the stamp says the 30th. I would be in no position to give an explanation for that. MR VALLY MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Fine. Did you ever see Dr Asvat again in January of before his death? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA MR VALLY MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA MR VALLY: You also denied having any argument or row with Dr Asvat? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I could never had any argument with Dr Asvat. MR VALLY: I want to go on to the issue of Mr Lolo Solo, and Mr Sibuniso Shabalala. You have heard the evidence of Mr Sono, senior, the father of Lolo Sono? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes I did hear. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes. MR VALLY MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard him give evidence. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY: Now, if that was true, Mr Sono says that the abduction as he calls it, took place on the 30th of November, 1988, he started laying charges on the 14th of November, 1988. The attack on the house of Jerry Richardson in which (indistinct) and Sipo, the MK guerrillas were killed, in fact took place on the 9th of November, 1988. Four days earlier? How do you explain this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA MR VALLY I want to refer you to the second Section 29 Inquiry., page 16 onwards. You advise us there in that Lolo Sono was your courier and was, had in fact been introduced to you by Seboko himself. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR VALLY: I go on to page 17 to ask you a question. Have you ever made an attempt, any attempt to find out what has happened to Lolo Sono? And your response was: "I have no reason to find out why, what happened to Lolo. Why would I have been concerned to find out what happened to Lolo?" My response was: "Surely you are aware of statements being made in the Press and in Parliament and statements made before the Human Rights Violation Committee by Mr Sono and by Mrs Sono regarding this?" You went on. "I saw the statements in the media, Mr Chairman, and if I followed up all the things that get said about one in the media, I do not think I would have been normal to this day. My response was: "But he was a Courier you trusted implicitly. Surely, you would have been concerned as to what happened to such a Courier?" "The issue of Lolo Sono had not gone away for eight years. It is now eight years since he allegedly disappeared. You have advised us that Mr Sono has come to your house a number of times and I talk about Mr Sono, and I asked you the question. "Why did he come to your house?" And you say he came to your house to bring you ammunition. "I could not have been curious about what happened to people those days. It was not my area of concern, and in the first place during those days, how on earth would I have gone out of my way to look for information about Lolo Sono? And I think my attorney explained in the last session, we had that our information from Mr (indistinct) is that you actually have statements made by the people who knew what happened to Lolo Sono. Have you at any stage made enquiries as to what happened to Lolo Sono. You were a MK operative. One of your trusted couriers disappears, two MK Guerrillas get killed. Do you want to in any way revise the answer you gave us previously at a Section 29 Inquiry? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: I think (indistinct) MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly hope even you do not believe in the lunatic statement that has been made by Cebekhulu. I really hope so. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When one of the (indistinct) were here, I think that evidence about the torture of his clients as how he was tortured to give a false statement, how he was tortured and killed, he submitted himself, and gave false statement. What validity can I attach to a statement extracted by (indistinct), or any other policeman during those days. People died, having then been forced to say things they did not do. That was South Africa of yesterday which we are trying to forget here but instead we are doing the opposite. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I do not know about that. That is my view, and I hold that view. MR VALLY: The statement issued by the Democratic Movement on the 15th of February, 1989, which you at a Section 29 Inquiry suggested was possibly a Stratcom operation, subsequently we had Mr Cachalia and Mr Morobe confirming that they were party to the statement, and it represented the Democratic Movement at the time. Very briefly, (indistinct) "We are outraged by the reign of terror that the team has been associated with. The practices have violated the spirit and ethos of the Democratic Movement. Numerous efforts have been made to reconcile the conflict between Mrs Mandela and the community. The last of these efforts was intervention of the Crisis Committee comprising some of our most able and respected members. On every occasion Mrs Mandela has refused to co-operate, and has chosen to disregard the sentiment of the community......" It goes on, you know the statement. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was not surprising then, it is still not surprising there today. We all know the statement which was made by (indistinct) before this forum. The last paragraph of which was the recommendation that people like myself should hold political office. The whole (indistinct) of having done that effort at the time, was precisely because of what he was trying to do to this day, and we out there know (indistinct) and in fact when I returned from Brandfort, and I made enquiries about Molefe Morobe, the youth of the day told me that he was Mefi Patel, because he belongs to the (indistinct). MR VALLY Let me go on. These two other statements that were issued. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hanif, can I find out how much more? MR VALLY: Ten minutes, Archbishop. CHAIRPERSON: Alright. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is the statement which means Mufamadi was cowardly enough not to own up to me when it was (indistinct) and before this forum, he denied that we had a discussion of that sort. MR VALLY: But this is a statement, where four prominent people under oath confirmed that they were party to the statement, and had in fact sent it to Mr Oliver Tambo. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: They made some strong statements in there regarding the assault and death of Stompie Seipei, the assault on Mekgwe Mono, and Cebukhulu, the whole issue of the Football Club and its activities, and your allegations regarding them. Recently there have been serious concerns pertaining to the activities of the group known as the Mandela Football Club which have raised great concern within the Mass Democratic Movement, and struggling people as a whole. The ANC shared the concern of the people, and has at all times tried to intervene to find amicable solutions to the problem. In the light of (indistinct) and activities in the recent past, our organisation complimenting our initiative or leading personnel to the Mass Democratic Movement, trying to use influence to bring about the (indistinct) of the group. Unfortunately our counsel was not heeded by Comrade Winnie Mandela. The situation has been further complicated by the fact that she does not belong to any structures, and therefore did not benefit from the discipline counselling, and collectivity of the Mass Democratic Movement. Under these circumstances we have ...(inaudible) committing mistakes which the enemy exploited, once that incident related to the so-called Mandela Football Club. In the course of time, the Club engaged undercover activities which have angered the community. We fully understand the anger of the people and their anger towards this club". I again ask this question - "Was there any basis for this strong feeling as displayed by such prominent people and institution, and an organisation, such as the ANC?" MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave you my answer and that was my final answer. MR VALLY: Your answer in the Section 29 Inquiry, was this was all set-up. We now produce the people in person who made this statement, except the ANC statement, but that was Mr Jaba. What is your answer regarding the statement made by he Mandela Crisis Committee, and the ANC? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It has not changed my view at the time. I certainly believed then, and that was my view, and I gave you my final answer. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was not correct. MR VALLY: So what was in the Frank Chikane report was not correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not say that it was not correct for him to have spoken to Oliver Tambo. I said so (indistinct) to Tambo speaking to me. That was not correct. MR VALLY: So what you are saying from the people that were making allegations about you or statements about you, are we to (indistinct) that everyone else is in fact lying? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: So far, what I have told you were untrue. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have not refuted the fact that there were problems around some of the youth, who were either at my place or operating from their homes. I have conceded that there were problems. MR VALLY And your answer was: I have no retrospective feelings whatsoever. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: MR VALLY: Just very briefly. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was tragic that some of them were directly linked to the previous Football Club. MR VALLY: MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No , there was a statement by the ANC in Natal, confirming that Sydney held at the time. MR VALLY: Is that the recent statement? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There was a statement I saw from the ANC. MR VALLY Fine, very polite and respectful request. In view of the number of people serving sentences, in view of the number of young people who have been killed, in view of the number of young people who have been tortured, in retrospect, do you think that you should have handled things differently at the time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have given an answer Mr Chairman. MR VALLY Do you have any regret or any remorse to what has happened at the time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA MR VALLY: Thank you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Kades. MR KADES: Thank you Commissioner. Mrs Madikizela Mandela, my name is Norman Kades and I represent the Abu-Baker Asvat family. I want to take you back to the 29th of December of 1988, when Mrs Falati made the report to you concerning what she alleged to be the practices at the manse of the Methodist Church. When she told you that did she come to you alone, or did she come to you in the company by Katiza Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think it was mid-morning, I wouldn't really recall precisely what time it was. MR KADES And she told you that she had been informed by a youth that he had been sodomised by Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At that stage she spoke to me about Katiza only. MR KADES Did she tell you that Katiza had informed her that he had been sodomised by Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is what she told me. MR KADES And this was a matter of grave concern to you obviously? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, the way she conveyed it to me, it was a matter of grave concern. MR KADES And you immediately decided that you would take this young man to Dr Asvat? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA To Dr Asvat. MR KADES To have him examined relating to the charge of sodomy? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, just to contextualise this properly. At that stage Falati was more concerned about Rev Paul Verryn and this youngster because she felt that he was a danger to Rev Paul Verryn. MR KADES So when you took Katiza to Dr Asvat eventually, you went with two matters in mind? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KADES The one was the sodomy and the other was the mental condition of Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR KADES And when you saw Dr Asvat, you disclosed your concerns to him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR KADES Of the two aspects, and insofar as you are aware, were you present at the examination? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't recall, but I think every doctor's practice is, when he is examining the patient, you don't remain inside. MR KADES Yes, I don't know about any doctor's practice, but you were the senior person who had brought Katiza, did you not accompany him into the doctor's surgery and to the examination? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I don't recall that. MR KADES You don't recall that. What was the - and presumably you were concerned as to what Dr Asvat's findings were after he had examined Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He came out and spoke to me. MR KADES And what did he tell you about the sodomy, the allegation of sodomy? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, he told me that he couldn't make any finding and that he needed to consult specialists and I assumed about both conditions. His mental state and whatever was related to sodomy, I don't know what you can see as a specialist, I am not a doctor. MR KADES So at that stage you had no evidence independent of the claim made by Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA None, whatsoever. MR KADES Who was in this confused, mental state, that the Rev Paul Verryn had been guilty of this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, Dr Asvat did mention the fact that he was worried about Cebekhulu's mental state. He said he seemed to be confused. MR KADES And is that the evidence you relied upon, the evidence of that confused young man to make the accusation against Paul Verryn that you eventually made? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I made no accusation against Rev Paul Verryn. This information was brought to me by Falati. MR KADES The problem that I have Madam, is that on the 1st of February of 1989, and I have seen that in NBC documentary, you spent 15, 20 minutes making the accusation against Paul Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was not making accusations against Paul Verryn. Up to that stage, they were the most damaging documentaries both on the BBC and various other news media about this situation. MR KADES Sorry damaging in respect of Paul Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA In respect of myself. MR KADES No, no, no, they were not talking about you for a change. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I was responding to damaging reports about myself. MR KADES Yes, well I have not asked you about damaging reports about yourself. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am saying I was responding to those damaging reports. That is when I gave that interview. MR KADES Yes, but I am asking you questions today, you were responding to damaging reports about yourself? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KADES And your response to the damaging reports about yourself, was this ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I explained myself. MR KADES Would you let me please. CHAIRPERSON Please, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, give him the chance to put his question and then you will respond. MR KADES You were responding to attacks made on yourself by the BBC, by in turn attacking a priest of the Methodist church in Soweto, is that what you are telling us? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA May I repeat again? MR KADES Please. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not make those accusations against Paul Verryn, I did not know. I did not know Rev Paul Verryn, I was merely giving an explanation from evidence given to me by Falati. MR KADES Mrs Mandela, Madikizela-Mandela, that NBC documentary that I saw two weeks ago is still in existence, and if necessary the content of the documentary is before this Commission, portion of it has been read to you, and if necessary I will ask that it be shown to you. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know what your question is, are you asking me whether you should present that documentary to this Commission? MR KADES Well, if you let me put the question Madam, and you don't interrupt me, then you will hear that ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Oh, I am sorry, I thought you had finished. MR KADES I understand your point. CHAIRPERSON Don't appear to be intimidating the witness. I am Chairing here and if you feel the witness not to be conducting herself properly I am the one to make that ruling. Please, I think on the whole, we have been relatively amicable in our relationships and I would wish for that to remain that way. MR KADES That is so Mr Chairman, but with due respect, if the witness doesn't answer the question, I am obliged because it is my duty to do so, to put the question and to have the witness answer the question. CHAIRPERSON All I am saying is I think that we ought not to have what appears to be an aggressive attitude. What we are seeking is to arrive at the truth and this is not, as I keep saying, not a court of law, although we follow some of those proceedings and I think that we are far better able to get to the truth if people are not harassed, or feel harassed, and I would hope too Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that you will give the counsel for the Asvat family, or whoever else questions you, the opportunity of putting their question and as far as possible to respond without getting too hot under the collar. Thank you. MR KADES Madam, you say in the documentary "Paul Verryn has a very, very serious psychological problem, I do not understand why a man of his calibre and a Christian would continue sodomising black children". Was the only source of your information that which had been given to you by Katiza Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KADES And you knew that this information had not been confirmed by Dr Asvat during the medical examination of Katiza Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I knew that the information had not been given to me by Dr Asvat. MR KADES And you knew Madam that an appointment had been made by Dr Asvat for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not Cebekhulu had been sodomised? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA To my recollection, already at that stage, allegations were made that I was accusing Rev Paul Verryn and I needed to give an explanation as to how I came across that information. And I believed at that stage that if it was so and that Rev Paul Verryn was abusing youngsters, then there was a problem. I believed so. MR KADES Absolutely, absolutely, but Madam, the impression that you give in the documentary if I might read it to you "Rev Paul Verryn, it is known within church circles, and it is known by those who have been working very closely with him, that this problem, that this problem has just been discovered by me, that he has this problem. The problem has not just been discovered by me". What information did you have concerning that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At that time, we had information that Rev Paul Verryn had been spoken to by Rev Chikane and Bishop Storey and to my recollection the court record does confirm that. The court record in which I was charged for kidnapping. MR KADES I am not concerned with respect, with the court record where you were charged with kidnapping. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, you asked for the origin of my sources and I am giving it to you. MR KADES Yes, well the origin of your source is not years later where you are giving evidence in a court record. The origin of your source on the 1st of February 1989, long before you were charged, relates to evidence that you had in your possession at that time. I ask you Madam, what is the source of this information? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have just confirmed the source of my information. MR KADES The source of the information is that, may I please so as not to do you a dis-service, the source of the information you say is the court record which related to a hearing that took place a year or two years later, is that what you are saying? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Don't distort the information I am giving you. I am saying at that stage my understanding was that Rev Chikane had spoken to Rev Paul Verryn and that Bishop Storey had spoken to Paul Verryn about this problem and I said you can confirm that, my understanding was based on those facts in the court record. MR KADES I don't understand, I am sorry Madam, but maybe that is my problem. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, it is definitely. MR KADES Well, may I then continue Madam and read to you what you said further in the documentary which is available. You say - "It is a problem that is well-known in church circles. He is supposed to have been transferred from Roodepoort because of the same problem and he is supposed to be continuing with the said activities with the full knowledge of some of the top members of the church" MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was the information I had at the time. MR KADES From whom? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At the time. MR KADES From whom at the time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have just stated that at the time my information was based on what I had been told, that Rev Chikane and Bishop Storey had spoken to Rev Paul Verryn about this problem. MR KADES Are you telling us, please let us understand what your evidence is, are you telling us that the information you had, this information that I had just read to you, emanated from the Rev Storey, Peter Storey and from Rev Frank Chikane, is that what you are saying? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Again sir, I am asking you not to distort me right in front of my face. MR KADES I think you are distorting. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I said originally the information came from Falati and subsequently you asked me for further sources. I have given that to you. MR KADES Well, Madam, you must have been very concerned about the allegations concerning that which had been made to you by Cebekhulu which by the 1st of February 1989, was still the only information you had concerning the unacceptable, alleged unacceptable behaviour of Paul Verryn. You have told us that Dr Asvat had made an appointment with a specialist to deal with the problems mentioned by Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KADES The two problems you have told us of earlier. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Dr Asvat was supposed to have made an appointment. MR KADES Well, did you go back to Dr Asvat to ascertain what had happened concerning the appointment he was alleged to have made? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I didn't go back to Dr Asvat because I think the sequence of events then prevented me from going back on the Katiza issue, lots of things happened at the time. MR KADES You were no longer concerned with the Katiza issue? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It actually fell out of my hands because of the events of the time. I was no longer able to concentrate on Cebekhulu's problems. MR KADES Well, the problem that you were dealing with at the time, the issue of the sodomy allegations were very central to your life at that time, wasn't it? It all emanated, all those problems emanated from the accusations of sodomy made against Paul Verryn and I am sorry to be raising this issue here. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. MR KADES So Katiza Cebekhulu was very central to what you were dealing with at the time, he was your star witness? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA We are not at variance about that. MR KADES So why didn't you take him back to Dr Asvat? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have given you an answer. MR KADES That you were busy with? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That the events of the time prevented me from going back to Dr Asvat. MR KADES What events? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Lots of things happened which was during the so-called abduction of the boys and all that. MR KADES Absolutely, all related to the issue of sodomy? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is true. MR KADES Of which you had no evidence other than that of a confused little boy, Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is true, but I am not a doctor. I was not in a position to state whether in fact that confusion did not arise as a result of being sodomised. MR KADES Absolutely Madam, and so why didn't you follow up that particular issue because you had been to the doctor, he had told you how to deal with the matter, he had said we will wait for the specialist to return at the beginning of January. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have given you an answer in that regard. MR KADES Well, Madam, I don't regard it as an appropriate answer. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Very well. MR KADES But the Commission will decide eventually. I want to put to you, to question you concerning the visit at Dr Asvat with Cebekhulu. Did you take Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the day on which he was brought to you or was it the day thereafter? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The day he was brought to me. MR KADES Well, the day he was brought to you was the 29th of December, we have established from independent evidence. When you arrived at the rooms, of course you knew that Mrs Sisulu was the person, the nurse and the receptionist employed by Dr Asvat? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I knew that. MR KADES And did you find Mrs Sisulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have no recollection of seeing her that day. MR KADES I see. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA She may have been there, she may not have been there. MR KADES Well, you know a card was filled in for Katiza Cebekhulu giving his name, the ordinary patient's card that Dr Asvat used, or that was used in his practice. A card stating the name and the age and the address of Cebekhulu, do you know that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I suppose that is the procedure in every consulting room. MR KADES Did the information concerning his name and address and age emanate from you or was it given by Mr Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, it emanated from the patient himself. MR KADES I see. Well, I want to place on record Mr Chairman, that with regard to the evidence of Mrs Albertina Sisulu the other day, that we have inspected the documentation and more particularly the card of Katiza Cebekhulu, which you will recall Mrs Albertina Sisulu stated was not in her handwriting, because it had been printed. And she told this Commission and she was accustomed not to print, she was unable to print she told us, that she rather wrote or scripted the words that she wrote. Well, we have compared the card of Katiza Cebekhulu with the card of Mbatha which was the only one available to us, and which is common cause, was completed by Mrs Albertina Sisulu and it is quite clear to us, and we accept it, that the card with the name of Katiza Cebekhulu and his address and age stated on it, are not in the handwriting of Mrs Albertina Sisulu. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other factors that seem to confirm this because this is quite important? MR KADES Well, Mr Chairman, the other factors which lead us apart from what is clearly a visible evidence and one doesn't need to be a handwriting expert to determine that these two documents are not in the handwriting of the same person, apart from that of course, is the evidence of Mrs Falati who has told this Commission that Mrs Sisulu was not present on that day and that a pregnant woman is the one who was then attending as a nurse and receptionist at Dr Asvat's surgery and also Mr Chairman, the evidence that we have just heard from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself, that she doesn't recall Mrs Sisulu as having been present on that day. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kades, I want to say that this is a very important, but I don't think it is a concession. It is an important point that you are making, would you go further to say that with regard to this particular point, the mistake that that witness made, would have been possibly in her answer on the video? MR KADES Mr Chairman, I obviously can't comment on the making of the video and the circumstances under which the video was made but it is a matter which we find perfectly acceptable that a person of the age of Mrs Sisulu when making the video, might well have made the admission or assumed that because it was a card that emanated from Dr Asvat's office, that it was obviously completed in her hand. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. I will be making a statement later at the end of this hearing, because this is I think a very important point that we need to acknowledge. Thank you very, very much that you have of your own (indistinct) done this. Thank you. MR KADES Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, just to finish off these aspects of the evidence, I must put to you what you said at page 92 of the second hearing, the in camera hearing. May I refer you and I put these questions to you Madam, for the reason that we seek to understand what happened with the late Dr Asvat. You see, we have had allegations that you returned to the surgery, that there was, what is called or described somewhere as a volcanic row and we are investigating these matters as we are entitled to do and that is why we have come here. You see Madam at the bottom of page 92 of the record of the in camera hearing, you say in answer to the question of Mr Vally and what did Dr Asvat say, and you say Dr Asvat made an appointment with the specialist who were supposed to be coming back on the 8th of January if I recollect the date correctly. You see, this evidence causes us to believe that you were in fact, in your presence, or you were told that that day Dr Asvat had made an appointment with a specialist? And if such an appointment was made, it would be necessary for you, Katiza to be examined by the specialist and at some stage, presumably to return to Dr Asvat? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As I explained sir, events overtook that process and I was no longer able to deal with Katiza. MR KADES Well, do I understand then that your answer is that you confirm that an appointment was made for the 8th maybe of January? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct sir. MR KADES That is not what you have told us earlier? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did indicate that Dr Asvat was to arrange for a specialist to see this boy? MR KADES Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Katiza. MR KADES Yes, but this of course is an actual statement that such an appointment was made. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I merely made an indication of a date. MR KADES Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA From my recollection. MR KADES Yes, and you also indicated that an appointment was made. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me Mr Kades, I have been fairly generous in the time that we have allocated. I would hope that you would be able to have finished by the time we want to break for lunch, okay. MR KADES Oh, yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR KADES Thank you Mr Chairman. You see, what you've told us earlier today was that no appointment had been made and that an appointment was to be made. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I don't seem to recollect saying that. I did indicate that an appointment was to be made and I merely gave a vague date and this happened years ago. That was my recollection that Dr Asvat was to make an appointment. MR KADES If I were ever to make a submission to the Commission on that matter, Madam, I would say that you contradicted yourself, but let us move further. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What would be the reason for that? It makes no difference at all. CHAIRPERSON Put your next question. MR KADES Yes. Madam, you say events overtook you and you didn't keep the appointment with the specialist. Did you ever return to Dr Asvat with Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, sir. MR KADES There is evidence that we have heard, well there is evidence, a statement made before the in camera hearing, that if I might give you, it is page 105 of the second in camera hearing, there is an allegation Madam that you said that Krish Naidoo took Cebekhulu to the police station on the night of the 26th of January 1989 in order to lay a charge of sodomy against Paul Verryn. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had no recollection of such an event. MR KADES Well, if in fact there is evidence of such a charge, an attempt to lay such a charge, would you say that this was something that Cebekhulu ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If Krish Naidoo was acting for Cebekhulu, he would have been within his rights to do what he pleased. He didn't have to take instructions from me on behalf of Cebekhulu. MR KADES Well, I have no argument with that, but do you know whether Krish Naidoo was ever acting for Cebekhulu? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't know sir. MR KADES So you know nothing about an attempt to lay a charge of sodomy against Paul Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have no such recollection. MR KADES Just give me one second please Mr Chairman. If it is appropriate Mr Commissioner, we may well adjourn for lunch, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Have you finished? MR KADES I have finished, yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES . CHAIRPERSON Well, is there someone who is up for grabs, there is five minutes? Mr Joseph? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOSEPH Mr Mandela, my surname is Joseph, I represent Katiza Cebekhulu and Emma Nicholson. Let me just talk to you about the background to the events I have in mind. 1986, 1987, 1988, what was going on in our country and in particular what was taking place in Soweto. Let me start off by inviting you who is in the best position to tell us this, and let me start off by telling you this because what you are going to tell us is known by everyone, we all live in this country, we all lived through those horrible times and we all know what was going on and I would in very broad terms say that what was going on in Soweto at this time, was akin to mayhem, the streets were burning, the Security Forces were raiding, MK cadres were coming in and you take it from there, do you agree with me, is that more or less what was happening? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Why more or less, that is very broad? MR JOSEPH Yes, well you help us Mrs Mandela, you assist us? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I can only state that the African National Congress was waging a struggle underground and there was anarchy all over the country. MR JOSEPH Help us Mrs Mandela. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon? MR JOSEPH Help us, these Commissioners want to know what it was like, help us? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You know I am not with you, I don't get that question. CHAIRPERSON I thought you just had five minutes and if it is common cause that we knew all of us knew, what it was about - I am sorry. I gave you misleading information, we can't take lunch quite at one o'clock, the lunch hasn't arrived, but that doesn't mean - you've still got five minutes. MR JOSEPH I've been misled. CHAIRPERSON Because I think we want to go after you. MR JOSEPH May I ask you, are you limiting the cross-examination to five minutes? DR BORAINE Chairperson, we did mention that there was five minutes left, would anybody like to use those five minutes and could finish in that time, that was our assumption? But may I say in support of the Chairman, that to ask Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to give a lecture on how the situation was, would take her hours and we haven't got that sort of time. Perhaps if you put your questions. MR JOSEPH All right, let me help. It wouldn't take hours, it can be done in minutes. DR BORAINE I think you should put your questions. MR JOSEPH It could be done in moments. During this period of time, there was a state of emergency, that horrific things were taking place all over the country, including Soweto, people were being killed, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR JOSEPH Necklacing was taking place, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That may also be correct. MR JOSEPH The victims of the necklacing were in the main what type of people? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I don't really know, I am not an expert in that part of your history. MR JOSEPH You don't know, you've got no idea who it is? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know who was necklaced at that stage and why. MR JOSEPH You don't know who the victims were? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The victims were supposed to be collaborators with the government. MR JOSEPH Collaborators and informants, is that correct. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Some of them yes. MR JOSEPH Correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, but I cannot vouch for that, that was just public information. MR JOSEPH Yes, now during April 1986 you are reported to have said the following "together, hand in hand, with our boxes of matches and necklaces, we shall liberate this country". Firstly are you correctly, is this a correct record of what you said? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I thought we came here to establish facts and to reconcile this country over atrocities, perpetrated by either ourselves or those people were working with. I did not necklace anybody. MR JOSEPH Madam, I am just asking. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA And a description of the events of the time, is not part of the perpetration of acts of atrocities. CHAIRPERSON Can you just answer the question. MR JOSEPH Just try and answer the question. CHAIRPERSON The question I think one would grant the preamble as it were, that you gave. MR JOSEPH This document purports to record words you articulated. Is the record correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did make mention of those words in describing the situation of the time. It was not in relation to any particular necklacing I had personally done. MR JOSEPH There is no suggestion whatsoever Madam, that you personally committed any offence like that and let me put your mind at ease, there is no decision at this Committee or this Commission can make which is to the effect that you were guilty of any offence. You are presumed to be innocent. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, statements made at that time under those conditions, during our struggle. MR JOSEPH They were acceptable. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They were descriptive of that time. MR JOSEPH Let me take the liberty of telling you how I understand your words. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You may have understood it whichever way you pleased and you are free to do so. MR JOSEPH Let me rather then ask you this, will you convey what you intended the ordinary reader should have understood by these words. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not intend anything, I was describing the situation at the time. MR JOSEPH You did not intend any person who heard these words, to understand anything from these words? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was describing the situation at the time. And it is my final answer. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible to, I think you are representing the two clients you spoke of and it may be helpful, I don't want to ... MR JOSEPH May I interrupt at this stage, we are all over here and we look to you for guidance what you want. I know what the legislation says, the legislation says simply that the witnesses are here to answer questions. I can only interpret that injunction by the legislature to mean that relevant questions are put to them and they are expected to answer those questions. Now relevancy in a period of time in which to answer the questions, do not go hand in hand. It seems to me that there were allegations against this lady that she participated or had a hand in offences which resulted in people who prima facie referred to as informers being killed. In this five minutes of cross-examination you have heard the evidence, and here is this statement which can well be interpreted to mean that the speaker intended listeners to participate in certain events or to act in a certain manner in order to achieve the liberation of our country. It is a simple question, did you intend certain people who heard your language to terminate the lives of collaborators or informers, is that what you intended? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have you the answer. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I think my learned colleague would want to admit at the same breath that is understanding the legislation, that that relevance must surely have to do with the items which have been identified in this subpoena and not a single case in that subpoena relates to people who had been necklaced. He is the one who must just admit that the relevance of this questions about those utterances, if not just a pure political statement, have no relevance whatsoever with the issues before you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I am not entirely certain about that, but what I was going to say to Mr Joseph, is that we are labouring under a misapprehension. We thought that you are going to be able to complete whatever it was that you wanted to do, in the five minutes allocated, but then if it is that you are wanting to go on a little further, I had said in the beginning, right in the beginning of this that because we want to finish, five minutes would be about the time. I mean flexible, and when you raised your hand, we thought we are going to adjourn in five minutes time. Now, maybe you should go ahead and let's try and be able to have finished to you before we break. MR JOSEPH Allow me to press this question one more time. These words that you admit you uttered, what did you intend by these words? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I gave you my answer. MR JOSEPH I haven't heard it, would you repeat it. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I gave you my answer, I told you I was describing the situation at the time. If you don't like it, too bad. CHAIRPERSON Order please. Mrs Mandela, I think you have conducted yourself with dignity and I do not want for this hearing to degenerate into playing to galleries. It is important because we are not playing games here, we are about very serious issues. And it would be good and I think very dignified to say this is your answer, I don't think that your last words are appropriate. I don't think that that is so and I will not allow that to happen. Please when you are asked a question, you either answer yes, no, whatever, but I don't think that we want sarcasms or any of this sort, please. I want this to be reasonably friendly hearing, it is about very serious matters and I think that when you have answered with dignity, you have been able to carry it. It is when it appears as if one is seeking to play to galleries, and that applies to all of us. Nobody here should be trying to score points just gratuitously, so if you could, please answer the question. If he seeks you to repeat it, repeat it and that should be the full stop you put. I don't want to be engaging in perhaps rebuking, I don't want to rebuke anybody. Where are you now. You've got the answer that the witness wants to give. MR JOSEPH Well, I then appeal to you as the Chairman, to say that this is not an answer to the question. This is not an answer to the question. It can be Mr Chairman, and I mean this with great respect, it can be that we sit here for five minutes, you really get no assistance from - myself and my learned friends, nothing at all. In five minutes we can do nothing. CHAIRPERSON You have had more than five minutes. MR JOSEPH I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON You've had more than five minutes. MR JOSEPH Of cross-examination? CHAIRPERSON Yes. It is actually nearly 15 minutes. MR JOSEPH And we haven't got an answer to one question. CHAIRPERSON Well, you know you try again and try and give an answer. We would have to sit down and say are we satisfied. I can say to you perhaps it is not the answer you expect, it is not the answer, but that is the answer she gives. MR JOSEPH You see, cross-examination is a little more than the cross-examiner just accepting an answer. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to say apart from just describing, when you made it and I accept that in the heat of the moment, we may say very many things, but what was your intention? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA (Indistinct) intention, I made that statement to describe the times then. MR JOSEPH It is not descriptive, the language you used, you are exhorting people to do something to achieve an end. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I am telling you I didn't do so. MR JOSEPH You didn't intend it? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If your understanding is that, then of course it is your understanding. I am telling you I described the situation of the time. You are wanting me to give an analysis of your choice. I did not intend anything, I was describing the situation, the political situation in the country at the time. Things that were happening at the time. Now you can interpret it the way you want because you have that democratic right to do so. MR JOSEPH So, together hand, in hand, with our boxes of matches and our necklaces ... MR SEMENYA Chairperson, with respect, this is just politicking. CHAIRPERSON I think I have said, let me - can you please yes. MR JOSEPH My learned friend, Mr Vally quoted to you from your maiden speech in parliament, do you remember that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I do. MR JOSEPH And your interpretation of the language you used then, was that you rescued the boys from my house. You rescued the boys from your own house, that was your answer. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As you say. MR JOSEPH Is that correct, is that an interpretation? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I gave that interpretation that at that time I was referring to removing them handing them over to Dr Motlana, to take them to Bishop Storey. MR JOSEPH If my learned friend could just refer to that speech again, let's just have the language of that speech? So your interpretation of the language you used in parliament, had something to do with rescuing the boys from your own house and handing them over to Dr Motlana? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, because allegations were all over about them being detained there against their will. MR JOSEPH The ordinary reader or ordinary listener, would he or she heard the words, which the learned friend, Mr Vally will now repeat, they understood it to mean that you rescued these people from your house and you gave them to Dr Motlana? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are requesting me to interpret the readership? I am unable to do that, I have just given you my answer. I am telling you that was reference to my house. CHAIRPERSON Actually, can you just ... MR JOSEPH Read it. MR VALLY I will read the sentence Archbishop. When a report was made to me that there were youths who were being sexually abused, I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house. MR JOSEPH Rescue them from where? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, may I request that answer to be settled ... (tape ends) ... and my learned colleague would concede that is how the record stands, and now that it is quoted without context, it is leading perhaps, unfortunately to the type of cross-examination that is emanating. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the only thing is that I would concede the point that you are making. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela probably didn't hear herself, when she was answering she did say something about rescuing from her own house and I think that that was a bit strange. MR JOSEPH Here are lots of help. Your interpretation of that excerpt from your maiden speech of parliament, was interpreted by you to be understood by the reader or the listener to mean that you rescued the youths from your house. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, can that ... CHAIRPERSON I think, all right, you say ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What is your problem? MR SEMENYA Can the excerpts and the context under which that answer was given be read to the witness and let her respond therefrom? CHAIRPERSON What I want to suggest is that we have not in fact been able to finish with Mr Joseph, that we take this break and if you could help to have the particular transcript made available to the relevant people, will you do that. Order please, I have not yet asked that you can leave. We will resume two o'clock. COMMISSION ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON It will be a good thing if people sit down. Will you please sit down, thank you. Order please. There are people who don't know the meaning of sit down. Thank you. A set of keys were left in the you know where and this as well, it is an information booklet, application for something or other. I am aiming for us to try and finish by say five o'clock. We are under particular constraints because Dr Boraine and I have to be in Cape Town tomorrow for another hearing, a State Security Council hearing tomorrow. Unfortunately you have to fly to get to Cape Town and we are booked on flights. I need to say yes, I say five minutes is probably unfair to you ladies and gentlemen. Let us look at between 10 and 15. Again even that, let me say to you, I will be flexible. And I am going to let Mr Joseph just run for a while and if on this side, you will help us by trying to give as direct, concise answers that you can and I know you can, and if on that side you also try to have precise questions and let's get to the point. I don't want to stop as might appear to be the case, I don't want to stop what people might consider to be hard questions. And I also don't want to stop you from being, well I was going to say rumbustious, but no, no, no. That may be some times although the feelings, feelings are important too. But I think that for the dignity of the hearing, it is when you are also restraint. Thank you. Mr Joseph, let us have a short (inaudible) now. WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOSEPH (continued) Mrs Mandela, let us go back to the quotation which involves the boxes of matches. I am going to put to you that for the ordinary reader of what you said, you intended to say the following. That you, together with the people you were addressing, intended to liberate the country by using this method of eliminating people and the people you intended to eliminate were those people who one can describe as informers and collaborators, would that be correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is completely wrong. MR JOSEPH What did you intend by this statement? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not want us to go back to the previous discussions. I think I explained myself. That was a description of the times of the day. MR JOSEPH Mr Chairman, I look to you for assistance. I asked the witness to repeat the answer, she says she has given an answer, I don't have any record of that answer. CHAIRPERSON I could say have another shot, but that is her answer. I think we as the panel are going to have to make our own judgement on the validity or otherwise of the answer. MR JOSEPH That is not my point. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR JOSEPH My point is that I do not recall an answer being given by the witness about what she intended when she made use of this expression. It is a simple question, a simple answer. What did you intend when you addressed the people and you uttered these words. What did you intend to convey to the people? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I simply made a statement describing the times. MR JOSEPH Describing the times? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Under which we lived, the conditions of those times. MR JOSEPH The times under which you lived, informers and collaborators were being killed by a necklace method, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know of hundreds of informers being killed in that fashion. MR JOSEPH I never said hundreds of informers. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know of any informers that were killed in that fashion. MR JOSEPH So then what were you describing? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was describing what was alleged to be happening. I have no personal knowledge of any. MR JOSEPH You were describing what was alleged to be taking place? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, what was being alleged at the time. MR JOSEPH You were informing the people in the community that this is what is taking place, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA To my recollection, a previous sentence to that is that we do not have arms. I cannot recollect the precise wording. We did not have arms and that people have had to resort to things like that. I was not making a statement to encourage people to necklace. MR JOSEPH You weren't? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No. MR JOSEPH Together, hand in hand, with our boxes. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, with respect, I think there have been answers to this thing. And I still question the relevance of that utterance in relation to the issues that are before this Commission. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I might agree with you in hard, I do not agree entirely on the question of relevance, because I gather that some people have in their amnesty applications used this utterance as justifying what they did. That is neither here nor there, well, no actually it is in that they committed gross violations of human rights and some of them were apprehended and are applying or are in the process of applying for amnesty and whether that is the case or not, the point is the same, some of those people have used this utterance as what gave them as it were, they were under the impression that they were carrying out an exhortation. But I don't know whether we are able to get further with the witness. I think you have put the question. All right. MR JOSEPH Whatever you might say, the language that I have read to you, would be understood by the ordinary reader to mean that you are exhorting them to make use of a necklace to liberate the country. Then you say something else, that is an objective fact. You were an MK soldier, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not a trained MK soldier. I have been referred to as an operative because of the assistance I gave to cadres. MR JOSEPH You described yourself as being an MK soldier. I beg your pardon, you were a member of Umkonto weSizwe, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon? MR JOSEPH You were a member of Umkonto weSizwe? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, of course I am. MR JOSEPH Is that not the military wing of the ANC? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is the military wing of the ANC. MR JOSEPH So you are a member of the military wing of the ANC? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I am. MR JOSEPH You are a soldier? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was, yes. MR JOSEPH Correct. The African National Congress have made a decision to overthrow the white racist regime by means of an armed struggle and they went to war, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is common knowledge, yes. MR JOSEPH And you had an enemy that you had identified, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Are you now discussing the policies of the African National Congress? Is that where we are? MR JOSEPH No, I am asking you whether an enemy had been identified. I think the answer is obvious. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think you should direct that question to the organisation in its entirety. The African National Congress did identify its enemy. MR JOSEPH And who was that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The government of the day Mr Joseph. CHAIRPERSON Order please. MR JOSEPH Madam, if you just take me into your confidence. These questions are straight forward, easy to answer. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have answered you, I have said the government of the day was identified by the African National Congress as its enemy. MR JOSEPH And in particular the security services employed by the government of the day, correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was part of the government. MR JOSEPH The Security Forces employed by the government of the day in order to defend itself, in order to overcome the attack that was being made by the ANC, made use of many, many means didn't they? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Of course the government of the day was fought with every possible means necessary. MR JOSEPH And one of the means they employed was that one way or another, they were able to get people to act as informers, to infiltrate units and to give back intelligence to the Security Services, who then used to act on that intelligence, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What is the question? MR JOSEPH The strategy employed by the government of the day, one of the strategies, was to make use of informers who they would use to infiltrate MK cadres or MK strongholds or MK safe houses, and those informers would then relate that information to the Security Forces and the Security Forces would use that information, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is common cause. MR JOSEPH Yes, so you have identified yourself with the aims of the African National Congress and you had the same enemy as the African National Congress, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am a member of the African National Congress. MR JOSEPH The answer is yes or no? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Obviously, yes. MR JOSEPH The word enemy can be enlarged to include conventional soldiers, members of the South African Police Force and informers and traitors, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would imagine so. MR JOSEPH You would imagine so? Now, what would occur if you came across a person who you knew, you identified, you were satisfied that this person was an informer, a traitor, what would your attitude be towards that person? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My attitude would be that of the African National Congress. MR JOSEPH Which would be what? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't actually understand what sort of attitude you mean, what position would I take. I had no such powers to take decisions myself as to what should happen to those people, whoever they were. MR JOSEPH What would your attitude be? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My attitude would be that of not cooperating with informers and collaborators. MR JOSEPH And having identified a person as a collaborator, having identified a person as being an informer, identified a person as a traitor? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I wouldn't work hand in hand with such a person if I had that knowledge. MR JOSEPH What would you do? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would surely not cooperate with such a person. MR JOSEPH You would pat them on the back and you would say I have identified you to be a traitor, please go away, leave my house, you would do that? Is that what your attitude would be? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I thank God I didn't have any such a situation where I had to pat an informer on the back or communicate with an informer and say you have been identified as an informer. I have not had such a situation. MR JOSEPH You never had, and did you have any attitude towards informers, what you would do? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What I would do? MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I think the question has been asked and answered. The witness has said at least on three occasions that she would not cooperate with an informer. I don't know to ask the question what would you do is intended to solicit and unlock which answer now? CHAIRPERSON That is probably a justifiable objection, can you - I have really been very generous Mr Joseph in terms of time, can you come to a conclusion now? MR JOSEPH Having identified a person as being an informer, you had a greater duty to your comrades in arms, then just not cooperating with the informers, is that not correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't understand the type of question you are asking me. Is that now an assumption? MR JOSEPH I am putting something to you. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA A hypotheses? MR JOSEPH I am putting to you that in real life the situation that you found yourself in, had you identified a person as being an informer, part of your duties to your comrades in arms, would have involved more than adopting an attitude where you would not cooperate with them, you would have to do something else? You would have to at least advise your other comrades that you had identified a person as being an informers, isn't that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I had no such a situation where I had personally go and identify an informer and be expected to act on that. MR JOSEPH Would you not have been required to do that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, why would I have to be personally required to go out of my way and inform people that such and such a person is an informer? MR JOSEPH To inform your comrades in arms that you have identified Mr X as being an informer? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, no such a situation arose. MR JOSEPH Is not forewarned being forearmed? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I should imagine that is a good theory. MR JOSEPH And wouldn't it be very important to your comrades who were perhaps staying in a safe house to advise them that Mr X is an informer, be careful if he calls on you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, it did not happen. MR JOSEPH It did not happen? You actually have no attitude towards informers? CHAIRPERSON Let me just, how much more time? I think we really - let me give you one more minute. MR JOSEPH I put it to you Mrs Mandela that at least Lolo Sono, at least Stompie Seipei were identified by you as being informers and then you took steps to eliminate them. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is ludicrous Mr Chairman, almost nonsensical. MR JOSEPH Let me give you a real life situation where you have personal knowledge. You had referred two MK soldiers to the home of Jerry Richardson, correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I beg your pardon? MR JOSEPH You have referred two MK soldiers to the home of Jerry Richardson? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I did. MR JOSEPH That is correct? That house was attacked and two MK soldiers were killed. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is true. MR JOSEPH From your own evidence, we know of two other people who knew that there were MK soldiers in that house and both these people were not killed or apprehended by the police, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't really know what you are talking about. MR JOSEPH Well, think carefully and you will know what I am talking about. The two people I am referring to are Jerry Richardson, he knew there were MK people in the house, correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JOSEPH And the fourth person, apart from the two MK soldiers was Lolo Sono, he knew there were MK people? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, at what point were they identified as informers? MR JOSEPH Your yes, is all I want. That is all. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't understand your question. MR JOSEPH Well, you will understand. CHAIRPERSON Order please. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I don't think ... MR SEMENYA Chairperson, in fairness we now know that Jerry Richardson would also have communicated that fact to Sergeant Pretorius and Sergeant Pretorius would have communicated that fact to what Richardson calls policemen who would fill Orlando stadium. To put it to the witness that it was only four people, would be inaccurate in the understanding of the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Please, I think we really have got to get to your final question. MR JOSEPH This is the final question. So at the time the house was hit, you believed that Jerry Richardson was your trusted ally? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR JOSEPH Correct. The only other person who you have told us who was on your side of the fence, an ally of yours, was Lolo Sono, he was the only other person who knew that the two MK soldiers were in that house, correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was my courier, not necessarily an ally. MR JOSEPH Your courier? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, my courier. MR JOSEPH All right, so the house is hit, the two MK soldiers are eliminated, Jerry Richardson your trusted ally in respect of whom you hold no suspicions is alive and well and Lolo Sono disappears of the face of the earth, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He disappeared the same day from the evidence that was led here. MR JOSEPH That is correct. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At that time, he did not - I didn't know. MR JOSEPH Now, I put it to you that as an MK soldier that you had an obligation to your comrades in arms, that when you came to know of an informer, you had to do something, and you had to do something drastic. And that is a reasonable explanation for the end of Lolo Sono. Am I wrong? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are totally wrong. That lacks the logic I would have expected from you. That is why Jerry Richardson came to stay with me. MR JOSEPH I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOSEPH . CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Richard. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson, I won't be long. Madam, so that we understand each other I will summarise what my client's case is all about. He admits to murdering ... CHAIRPERSON Can you just identify, I don't know that you told the witness that you represent a particular client. MR RICHARD I beg your pardon, you are right Chairperson. I will repeat my name again, Tony Richard. Madam, to summarise my client's position, his case is that ... CHAIRPERSON Who is he? MR RICHARD Mr Richardson, I presumed everybody knew, I am sorry. His case is that he admits to murdering four people, abducting four as well, the attempted murder of one other and he goes on to say that he did these deeds at your instruction and with your cooperation, participation and authority, what do you say to his complaints and charges? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You will agree with me sir, that after the public spectacle presented before this Commission by your client, I do not think even you believe that. MR RICHARD Now, we have all heard the evidence over the last two weeks and from the questioning that my learned colleagues have put you through, I can take it as said that you deny the various allegations against you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Absolutely sir. MR RICHARD But then, we proceed to also have as common cause that during that period between November 1988 and the end of January 1989, according to my count, approximately 10 people died. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA From the calculations and the evidence led here, that is probably a rough estimate, I am not sure. MR RICHARD And we have also established the further objective fact that sad as it is to acknowledge at this stage, there were three or four depending on how you count, or two, it doesn't matter, informers in your environment. I am not using the words Football Club or back yard, the two known ones now are Themba (indistinct) and Jerry Richardson and then there is also unsubstantiated allegations concerning Katiza Cebekhulu. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What was the first name you mentioned? MR RICHARD Jerry Richardson and Themba (indistinct), if I read my notes right. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not aware of Themba being an informer? Which Themba is that Mr Chairman? MR VALLY Johannes Mbatha, known as Themba. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I got that evidence here. I did not know him to be an informer. Nor would I believe De Kock would blow up an informer. MR RICHARD Yes, but we also know from I think it was Paul Erasmus, that your house was under 24 hour a day surveillance and indeed you described your own house as a police station? Correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not sure if it isn't still under observation. I believe it still it. MR RICHARD That might be. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Tragically. MR RICHARD But as my learned colleague, Mr Joseph said, one of the methods of the war at the time, was to infiltrate the enemy with informers and spies and sell outs and so on, correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now, unfortunately these circumstantial facts stand and there is an inference that my client's case is reasonably, probably true, thank you Ma'am, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD . CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Kuny? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KUNY I represent Ms Xoliswa Falati. Madam, you stated in the Section 29 hearing in camera, that you believed Ms Falati was responsible for the kidnapping of the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Can you repeat the question please. MR KUNY You stated in the in camera hearings when you gave evidence, that you believed Ms Falati was responsible for the kidnapping of the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I stated that Falati brought the youths to me. MR KUNY Well, it was put to you, the statement that you had made, a press report that you had released on the second of October, are you aware of that report, this year? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, if you can just refresh my memory what you are referring to. MR KUNY In that report, you made certain comments about Stompie Seipei's disappearance. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY Are you familiar with that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY And that report was put to you in the Section 29 proceedings as to what you meant by that report, are you aware of that report? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If you read the particular section you are referring to, I might be able to help. MR KUNY Do you not recall implicating Ms Falati in the kidnapping of the youths at this Section 29 proceedings? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I referred to Falati picking up the youths from the manse and I was not implicating her, it was a fact that she went to fetch the youths. MR KUNY Well, it was put to you by Mr Vally in those proceedings, in regard to this specific report, that Xoliswa Falati was responsible ... CHAIRPERSON Excuse me, can you give the ... MR KUNY I am referring to page 49. These are the second volumes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR KUNY You said, it was put to you Xoliswa Falati was responsible for the kidnapping. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think it was the way the question was phrased to me. MR KUNY Well, that was what was actually put to you. Your answer was, yes, that is correct. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is correct that she collected the youths from the manse. That the court subsequently interpreted that to be abduction, (indistinct) on the case that was being put across to us. MR KUNY Is it your evidence that there was or was not an abduction of the youths at the manse? Are you disputing that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As far as I was concerned, evidence at that stage was that the youths had gone to the bus voluntarily. And evidence has been led here in this forum that the youths were singing and toyi-toying when they got into the bus. But then, as far as the court was concerned, they were abducted. MR KUNY Are you saying that at that stage that the allegations were brought to you regarding whether an abduction had taken place, you had no knowledge of that abduction? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It wasn't that I had no knowledge of the abduction, I had no knowledge of the youths being forcibly removed. It was stated to me that the youths had toyi-toyed into the bus. MR KUNY Do you accept today, having heard all the evidence before the Commission, that the youths were removed from the manse by application of some force? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, evidence has also been led here by, if I recollect correctly, by Morgan, who was the driver, who stated that in fact he saw them toyi-toying into the bus. MR KUNY Let me take it one step further Madam. After the youths were brought to your house, is it your evidence that there was no detention of the boys against their will? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My evidence is well known, my evidence is that I was not there when they were brought there forcibly and that I found the youths there. MR KUNY I will take that issue up with you later, but before I just want to deal with this question of the youths that lived at the back of your house and quite a lot of evidence has been given in this regard. If I can just clarify certain aspects of this. Do you know how many youths at any one time, actually lived at the back of your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I wouldn't be able to give an exact figure at any given time. MR KUNY Did you know the nicknames of all of the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not all, but I addressed them with their nicknames, those I knew. MR KUNY And did a youth have to get permission from you or from anyone else, if he wanted to stay at your place or sleep over night? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No. MR KUNY Were you at all familiar with the background of any of these youths, where they come from, where their parents were, whether they were attending school and so forth? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I wasn't. I didn't have personal and individual knowledge of them, but all those who came to seek specific help from me, I gave them. MR KUNY Would it be correct to say and I want to refer specifically to this time in December and January, December 1988 and January 1989. Would it be correct to say that you at that stage were the head of the household? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have always been the head of that household. And I still am. MR KUNY Well, normally speaking, is it not correct that the male in the family, the man is the head of the family, but at that stage you were the head of that household? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You seriously wouldn't make that sort of statement to me. MR KUNY I am merely asking you a question. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have lived all my life without that head of a family. MR KUNY Well, now as the head of the family, you were responsible for keeping order in the household? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I have always been head of my family. MR KUNY Did you delegate that function of keeping order in the household to anyone or did you undertake that responsibility personally? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA How does a head of a family delegate? MR KUNY Well, we know that there were quite a number of people staying at your house, in particular Mr Jerry Richardson moved to your house from the 9th of November 1988? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was a specific case. Jerry Richardson's house had been involved in a shoot-out with the police. And when he came out of prison, he had nowhere to stay and he came over. Not that he was part and parcel of the youths who came to seek refuge with me. MR KUNY Yes, well, you did describe him in your evidence given at your trial, that he was the oldest person there? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, with the boys, he was not living in the house, he was with the boys at the back. MR KUNY And he was also the coach? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, he had been the coach those years when they had their Football team. MR KUNY Would it be correct to say that he played a more prominent role amongst the boys being the oldest and being the coach? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would imagine so, he was their coach. I don't know what other roles he played. MR KUNY But you didn't for example delegate functions of keeping the order in the household to him, you still maintained that function yourself? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, not at all, I maintained that function myself. MR KUNY Now, Madam, I want to take you briefly through the chronology of the events surrounding the transferral of the boys from the manse to your house and I am going to just very briefly sketch the facts as I understand them. Both given in these proceedings given by the witnesses and at your trial. And if I may, more pertinently refer to your evidence given at your trial where you were charged with Ms Falati. Ms Falati came to see you, and this was your evidence at the trial, please correct me if you disagree in any way with that, she came to see you on the afternoon of the 29th of December 1988? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA She came to see me on that date, exactly what time, I am not sure. MR KUNY And you asked Ms Falati to bring the youngster concerned, she had made a report to you, is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It may be correct. As I stated earlier I did not remember whether she came with Cebekhulu or whether I said she must go and fetch him. MR KUNY And Ms Falati then went and fetched the youth concerned? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That may be correct. MR KUNY And what do you mean that may be correct? Why do you say may? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Because I have just stated, I don't remember whether she came with him or whether I said she must go and fetch him. MR KUNY Well, you gave that evidence in the trial, we can refer to the record of those proceedings. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is possible, that is why I say it is possible. MR KUNY And you said that when Mr Cebekhulu was brought, he was shocked, he found it difficult to speak to you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was? MR KUNY You were shocked at his condition and that he found it difficult to speak to you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, his state of mind, he was very, very confused. MR KUNY You were obviously as has already been alluded to in the cross-examination, already, you were very concerned about his condition? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. MR KUNY And you then took the boy off to see Dr Asvat? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY Now, your evidence at the trial was that you made arrangements with Motau to drive you to Brandfort that evening? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. MR KUNY You also stated at that stage that you had planned to return on the 31st of December so that you could spend new year's eve with your family? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR KUNY Do you recall that evidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR KUNY And you say in your evidence at your trial, that you left for Brandfort at between 18h30 and 19h00? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is possible, it is a long time ago. MR KUNY You won't dispute that evidence that you gave? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I wouldn't. MR KUNY And you say that you got back to Johannesburg on the 31st of December, between 18h30 and 19h00? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY Now, Madam, I want to just then deal with what happened when you came back. In fact you gave evidence at your trial that you weren't feeling well that day when you returned? Do you recall that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I seem to recall that? MR KUNY And you said that when you had returned, Ms Falati had said something like she was sorry, she had brought some children there and she hoped that you would not mind, do you recall saying that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I recall that. MR KUNY Do you recall Ms Falati actually saying that to you? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I recall words to that effect, it is a long time ago. MR KUNY Now, you then gave evidence that because you were not feeling well, you went to bed? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is possible, yes. MR KUNY Now, what I would like to know from you is were you not at that stage perturbed that Ms Falati had said to you that she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn to stay at your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't recollect being perturbed at all. MR KUNY Well, let me just put this to you. You said in your evidence that she rattled something like she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY That those were the terms that she used? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is possible that that happened. MR KUNY Well, that was your evidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY Now, Madam, we have a situation here where before you leave you have a very disturbing incident of a young boy who is brought to you who is highly confused, he is in such a state that you see it fit to take him immediately to a Doctor. When you come back from Brandfort, you are confronted with a situation where some further young boys have been brought, relating to similar allegations, did that not strike you as something to be concerned about? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA My understanding at the time was that it was Cebekhulu who needed medical attention because he was becoming a threat to himself and a threat to Rev Paul Verryn. I didn't understand the other children to have similar problems. MR KUNY No, your evidence was that Ms Falati had said to you that she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is what I mean. I didn't understand them to be in that confused state of mind, they were a threat to Rev Paul Verryn and they were a threat to themselves. MR KUNY What condition were those boys in when they were brought? The boys that you were told about after your return from Brandfort? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't know what state they were in on their arrival, but when I did see them later on, they were normal to me. MR KUNY Did you go and speak to these boys to find out what was going on? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Did I go to find out? No. As it has been stated there, I went to bed. MR KUNY Well, let 's take for example, the following day, let's assume you are tired from the journey, you go to bed. Let's talk about the following day, the 1st of January now. You have been presented with these statements about similar victims, did you go and find out what was going on? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I don't actually recall the events of those days. I don't remember precisely when I saw them, but I did see them, and they were brought into the house. MR KUNY Who was brought into the house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think the boys did come into the house at a certain point. I don't remember how many days after they had been placed there. MR KUNY And which boys would you then be referring to now in your evidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would be referring to Mono and who was the other one by the way? MR KUNY Mekgwe? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I think so. MR KUNY Kenny Kgase? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I don't recall seeing Kenny Kgase, I am just not sure who was where at that point. MR KUNY But you remember at least two boys being brought into your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I do remember. Exactly which names I don't really remember. MR KUNY And did you question them as to why they had come to your house and under which circumstances? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had them brought into the house. I think the record would remind me. I don't remember exactly when and why, but I also arranged with my daughter to go and do some shopping for them because I was made to understand that they didn't have their clothes with the. MR KUNY Did you for example question the boys or look at them to see whether they had suffered any assault? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I had no reason to think so, I didn't question them, no. MR KUNY So they appeared to be ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They were quite normal. MR KUNY There were no apparent signs of assaults? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, when I saw them, there was no sign of any assault. MR KUNY And what about Stompie, was he not brought into your house at that stage? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I never saw Stompie. MR KUNY You never saw Stompie at all, the day after you returned? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I never saw Stompie. MR KUNY Are you sure about that Mrs Mandela? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am absolutely sure, I think. MR KUNY That is very strange, that is very strange, because you said at your trial, in the proceedings at your trial that you had seen Stompie on the following day after your return from Brandfort. Would you like me to read ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think if you read on you would see something like he was outside, near a tap and when I subsequently enquired who that child they were talking about, was, I was reminded he had been outside near a tap. But Stompie never came inside my house. MR KUNY Did you see Stompie outside? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think that is possible, I cannot recollect properly, because I do not know that child ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, that is in ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... face to face. MR KUNY That is inconsistent with the evidence, with the statement you have just made, but I will, I will not take that any further. Now, on your return, you said that no one informed you that anyone had been seriously injured at the back of the house. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was correct. MR KUNY And you also made mention of the fact that you went to a funeral on the fourth of January. Do you recall that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is possible, ja. MR KUNY And you said that when you went to the funeral there was no indication that any of the people on the bus were there against their will? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is true. MR KUNY And you did not notice anyone had been injured? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not. MR KUNY Now, would it be correct, then, and your evidence at your trial seems to bear this out, that members of the Crisis Committee came to you in this, in about the second week of January? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is possible, you heard my explanation about the Crisis Committee. Community leaders came home. MR KUNY And they then made the allegations that there had been a kidnapping and serious assaults? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY And can I take it this was the first time that you heard of such allegations? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That may be correct. As I said, I cannot place the dates exactly. MR KUNY Well, you say in your evidence at the trial that you were outraged by the suggestion. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, because I disbelieved ... (intervention). MR KUNY By the allegations, I beg your pardon? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I did disbelieve it at that stage. MR KUNY Now, I want you to try and remember, at that stage when the Crisis Committee had come to you and presented these allegations, can you recall whether anyone previously had made such similar allegations or whether there had been any rumours to that effect? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Allegations of? MR KUNY Of a kidnapping and an assault. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, no. Prior to that there had been no such allegations ... (intervention). MR KUNY So, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... to my recollection. MR KUNY Now, we can accept then that the Crisis Committee, that was the first time these were presented to you and that would explain your feeling of outrage? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Ja, no, that is possible. MR KUNY Now, Madam, what are we to understand by this statement that "you were outraged". Were you outraged that such allegations could have been made or were you outraged that boys on your property may have been guilty of perpetrating such an act? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Both. MR KUNY Was the allegation of an assault and a kidnapping made only about you or was it made about the boys who were staying on your property? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I do not recollect the details, but I think it was referred to the boys. MR KUNY Now, you say you think it referred to the boys? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I think at that stage it referred to the boys. MR KUNY And to yourself personally? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not recollect those allegations at that stage. MR KUNY Well, can we not assume that if you were personally implicated in a kidnapping and assault, this is something you would have remembered, surely? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had not been involved at that stage, through the perceptions of the time, ... (intervention). MR KUNY Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... in any particular assaults or abductions. MR KUNY No, my question to you is, were you personally implicated in the kidnapping and assault? Was the allegation made you participated in the kidnapping and assault or was it that the boys on your property ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It was made about the boys ... (intervention). MR KUNY So, there ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... at that stage. If you are referring to the discussion between ourselves and the community leaders, they made reference to the boys only at that stage. MR KUNY So, at that stage there was no specific allegation that you, personally, had participated in a kidnapping and assault? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not that I recollect. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kuny. MR KUNY Yes. CHAIRPERSON I am not going to stop you, but I want to have an indication of how much more you have. MR KUNY Mr Chairperson, I would ask for a bit of latitude in this regard. I am only going to deal with this one issue, I do not propose to deal with any other aspect in ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KUNY ... particular with this. CHAIRPERSON But it depends on how long ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, I ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON ... given that you have got all your other colleagues. I mean, I ... (intervention). MR KUNY I accept that, but I would like to be able to just deal with the chronology and sequence of events surrounding the ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON No, you are not answering my question. MR KUNY What is the question, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON I would like to know how much more time you think you require and how much, then I can decide how much I am able to let you have. MR KUNY Well, if I said half a hour, would that ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON No. MR KUNY ... that be in order? CHAIRPERSON No, no, no. I mean I have, you have already. had (...indistinct) ten, another ten. MR KUNY I will do my best, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR KUNY Now, your evidence at the trial was, you were infuriated and you said that if the allegations had meant to refer to the children, who had been brought by Falati, then the Crisis Committee was free to go to the back rooms and speak to them directly. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is possible, yes. MR KUNY Well, that was your evidence. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY You will not dispute that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I would not. MR KUNY But you say in your evidence that they did not go that day in your presence to see the youths. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not recollect that. MR KUNY Do you recall the evidence of the Crisis Committee that they were not, that they were not granted immediate access to the youths by yourself? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard that evidence here. MR KUNY Do you have any difficulty with that evidence? MR SEMENYA Well, chairperson my recollection is I even pertinently said, if you say "before we gained access" and I think it was Minister Mufamadi who says, maybe he did not mean that they were refused access before. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think I will come in here. What is the point that you want to make Mr Kuny? MR KUNY The point is that the Crisis Committee gave the impression, in their evidence, that they were not granted immediate access to the youths. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Semenya is right in the intervention that he made and that there was that response, but ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON ... would you put a version or to the witness? MR KUNY Yes. Well, I am not going to take that any further, but is it not correct that at that stage when these allegations were presented to you, Mrs Mandela, that you had said you had decided not to go and speak to the youths or have anything further to do with them? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not understand your question. Can you repeat it, Sir? MR KUNY Your evidence at the trial was that when these allegations were presented to you, you decided that you would not go, you would not have anything further to do with the youths. You were not going to see them, you did not want to be, you did not want it to be said that you were influencing them in any way. Is that not correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I think that you are quoting that out of context. I think it may have been something to the effect that the community leaders could see the children in my absence so that it must not be thought I was influencing them. I think you are quoting that out of context. MR KUNY Well, let me quote to you what you said at your trial. You said, "The allegations, that I told the Crisis Committee that in the light of what they had alleged, I would have no contact whatsoever with them and that they were free to have access to those children so that they should not charge us as having influenced them, because of the seriousness of the allegations.". MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, it is possible that day that they could go and have access to them. MR KUNY Now, why did you, why did you decide at that stage that you would have no contact with the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think it was because of the nature of the allegations that were put across to me. I do not know precisely what was, I do not remember what was precisely said. MR KUNY Well, let us look at that for a moment, Mrs Mandela. You say in your evidence now that the allegation had not been made against you personally. Is that not correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I said, to me recollection, yes. MR KUNY Yes, you, at the trial we know the evidence was that you had an alibi regarding the kidnapping and assault of the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY And you further said in evidence at the trial, that your conscience was clear. Do you recall that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY Now, if that is the case, why was, why did you decide at that stage that you would have no contact with the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That may have been as a result of the discussions between myself and some of the community leaders. I think Reverend Chikane stated here that, for instance, we had a difficult meeting which lasted five hours. It could have been, it is possible that it was as a result of those discussions ... (intervention). MR KUNY No. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... details of which I cannot recall. MR KUNY Mrs Mandela, we talking about the first occasion when the Crisis Committee came to you and made these shocking allegations. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is possible. MR KUNY Now, let me ask you, at that stage you were not aware of any assaults having been committed on the boys. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I do not remember what allegations were put across by the community leaders at that stage. MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If I remember the contents, then I would be able to answer you. MR KUNY No, no, I am afraid, Mrs Mandela, it is not as easy as that. The allegations that were made were that you, there had been a kidnapping and serious assaults. MR SEMENYA But, Chairperson, again, I do not want to interrupt my learned colleague. Part of the allegations were that they are held against their will by the witness. At least let us put the entire context to the witness to respond. CHAIRPERSON Well, maybe make the total ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON ... allegations. MR KUNY ... it is very straight forward, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KUNY The question is why did you decide at that stage that you would have no further contact with the youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think the answer has just been provided. It is possible, it is when those allegations were made, that they were being held by me, who was head of the family, that they were being held ... (intervention). MR KUNY At that stage ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... against their will. MR KUNY At that stage you were not aware of any assault being committed on these boys. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not sure whether the Crisis Committee or the community leaders stated those first that day, at that stage. MR KUNY Well, you said, you said in your evidence at the trial that the, when the Crisis Committee came they alleged that assaults were serious. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is possible. MR KUNY And there was an allegation of the abduction of the boys. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is why I am saying I am not sure at what stage I became aware. MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not sure of the exact discussions, exactly which dates, those discussions took place. MR KUNY Would it not have been the simplest thing to say to the Crisis Committee I am not aware of such assaults, let us go and see the boys, in my presence you can confirm for yourself whether there has been an abduction or, and an assault. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not remember the exact facts, but as you yourself have stated, I said they must go and see the boys in my absence. MR KUNY Now, Ms Mandela, you said after that that you had spoken, you had then asked Richardson what had happened. Do you recall that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is possible. MR KUNY And he had said that there was clapping or slapping when these children first came. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is possible. MR KUNY Now, I just very briefly want to deal with your evidence in this regard that you gave at the trial. Did you ask Jerry Richardson how, what the circumstances were in which there had been an assault of these youths? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not recollect those details. If I had had the opportunity of refreshing my mind through that court record, I would have been able to answer you outright. MR KUNY You see, Mrs Mandela, you were asked at the trial, "Did you ask Richardson what he knew about the circumstances of the youngsters being taken away from the manse?". I do not know if you recall that. You were asked by your counsel, Advocate Bizos. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, it is possible, counsel put those questions across, as I say I have not, I did not have an opportunity of refreshing my mind ... (intervention). MR KUNY Ja. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... with the court proceedings of the day. I would not remember exact ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... details and paragraphs of what happened. MR KUNY I am putting to you what was asked. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY And your answer was, "I did not discuss that with him, because Xoliswa had told me that she asked him to look after the children." That was your answer. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is possible, yes. MR KUNY Now, why did you not discuss with Mr Richardson these allegations that these boys had been abducted. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I may have disbelieved at that stage. MR KUNY But Mr Richardson has now actually admitted having perpetrated an assault on these young boys. Surely, the most obvious thing for you to have done would have been to have asked the circumstances of the removal of these boys. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Is there evidence that that day he had admitted to that, according to that court record you have in front of you? MR KUNY Yes. There is evidence that you went ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That day? MR KUNY ... to Mr Richardson. Let us not quarrel about days or times. Let us just look at the facts as they stand on the record. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not quarrelling with you, Sir. I am merely trying to clear ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, I am ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... what you are asking me. MR KUNY Well, you had been presented with allegations of an assault. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR KUNY And a kidnapping. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. Which I disbelieved at that stage. MR KUNY Well, but that allegation had subsequently been confirmed by Mr Richardson, that ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, ... (intervention). MR KUNY ... there had been an assault. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, when he was on trial, he confirmed. MR KUNY But you did not discuss with him the circumstances in which those boys had been taken from the manse? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not think there was need at that stage, because there was no suggestion to me, besides the fact that I disbelieved ... (intervention). MR KUNY Now, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... that they had been forcibly removed. MR KUNY I will not deal with that any further. Now, you were then asked, "Did you have any reason to believe that any force had been used to take the children away from the manse?". That was a question put to you by your counsel. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Which is why I responded in that manner that I did not believe at ... (intervention). MR KUNY Indeed so. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... that stage. MR KUNY You actually said that you did not have any reason. Now, can you tell the Commission why you held that belief? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Because I had been assured by Falati that the children or rather these youths, had been picked up from the manse and that they had come with her willingly. MR KUNY Now, you were then asked about whether you believed the allegations made in regard to the other young boys, were true or false and you said, "I had no reason to believe that the allegations were not false in relation to the others." Do you recall saying that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not clear of your question. MR KUNY You were asked at your trial whether you had any reason to believe whether the allegations directed, not to you, but to the other boys at your house, were true or false and you ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I may have said something like that ... (intervention). MR KUNY Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... I am not sure. CHAIRPERSON Can I say, I mean, I, Mr Kuny, I really have tried to be generous. I am going to give you two more minutes. I really have to, because we have, you have got all these other people. MR KUNY Now, you said if you did not know the allegations, if you believed that they might have been true in the allegations against the other boys at the manse, why did you not take further steps to find out what had happened to these young boys? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA There were no similar allegations such as those which were brought to my attention over Cebekhulu. MR KUNY You did not take steps to find out exactly what had happened to these young boys? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA But I, you have just stated, Sir, that I enquired from Richardson ... (intervention). MR KUNY No. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... what had happened. MR KUNY And Richardson ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA And I had no reason to disbelieve Richardson, because he was more senior. MR KUNY No, but Richardson had said there was an assault. Surely this is an indication ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He had said ... (intervention). MR KUNY ... that there may have been truth in the allegations, Mrs Mandela. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He had said that they were clapping and ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... he did not report anything serious to me and I believed that if there had been anything serious Falati would have reported to me. MR KUNY A clapping, Mrs Mandela, in my language, is an assault, but I will not take that any further. Now, I want to ask you about the medical record that was presented to you. When you were presented the medical record by Mr Vally, it was indicated on that medical record that you had been to see Dr Asvat with Mr Cebekhulu on the 30th of December 1988 and you said you did not dispute that. You said that it could be true. MR SEMENYA Now, now, Chairperson, I think ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, you are distorting. MR SEMENYA I beg your pardon. Chairperson, I think my learned colleague would want to be careful. What was put was that according to the medical card of Cebekhulu, he would have been at the doctor on the 30th. It was never said she had brought Cebekhulu to the surgery on the 30th. MR KUNY With due respect, that is not my understanding of the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just go ahead, yes. MR KUNY When the medical card was presented to you which indicated that Cebekhulu had been brought to the surgery on the 30th of December you did not dispute that that record was, in fact, correct. Is that not so? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not dispute the writing and the record on the card, but I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the 29th. What happened, how they do their administration is not really my concern. MR KUNY Well, you see there is a problem with this, because if, in fact, that record is correct, Madam, then your alibi is false. Is that not so? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is ludicrous Mr Chairman. I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the 29th. MR KUNY Can I just ask, ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Chairperson. MR KUNY ... at your trial ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Chairperson, with respect, the height of the evidence about the record does not go as far as to say Cebekhulu on that day was brought by client, it only says Cebekhulu on that particular day, the name of the patient is Cebekhulu, the date on it is the 30th. The one inference we are able to make is that Cebekhulu was at the surgery on that day. The next inference, which is not possible and which is my, what my learned colleague is attempting to do, is to say Cebekhulu was brought by client. I do not see how that flows from the card. MR KUNY Mr Chairperson, I am really unable to deal with this objection in the time which you have allotted me. I believe the evidence speaks for itself. I think that my learned friend is attempting to object to very pertinent cross-examination and I am in a situation where I cannot deal with the objection. CHAIRPERSON Let me just find out whether, in fact, Mr Cebekhulu went twice ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON ... to the doctor. Yes. MR KUNY I think that this, I think that properly speaking Mrs Mandela should deal with that evidence. Did ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I took Cebekhulu, Mr Chairman, once to Dr Asvat, on the 29th. Whether he went again on the 30th I, is not known to me. MR KUNY Mr Chairperson, may I take this issue up with Mrs Mandela? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KUNY Well, are you saying then that if the date on that card is correct, the 30th of December, then, in fact, Mr Cebekhulu must have been taken back the following day? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not saying anything of the sort, Sir. MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am saying I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat ... (intervention). MR KUNY Ja. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... on the 29th. MR KUNY Are you disputing, then, the date as it stands on the medical record? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have no knowledge of the date of the 20th, ... (intervention). MR KUNY You see ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... of the 30th on that card. I am saying I took Cebekhulu ... (intervention). MR KUNY Can ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... to Dr Asvat on the 29th and I am sure you can find that in the court record. MR KUNY You see, what is startlingly mysterious and strange about that medical card, is that you say in your evidence when Mr Cebekhulu presented himself to you he was mentally confused. Is that not correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was part of the problem, yes. MR KUNY Yes, that is an observation which you made? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Ja. MR KUNY Now, if you are suggesting that he went back the following day, on the 30th, without you then it is quite remarkable that the medical card, on the medical card is made an observation that the patient there was mentally confused, cries insomnia. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I made no such observation to the effect that he went twice. I merely said I took him to Dr Asvat on the 29th and the question was put to me, well, you are not listening. MR KUNY And there is another ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Wait, wait now, I think, I mean, that line of questioning can be taken up possibly by the panel, because you really have gone way beyond ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, ... CHAIRPERSON ... the ... (intervention). MR KUNY With respect, Mr Chairperson, I, if I may be just given a little bit more time. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I do not, I mean, I have told you the constraints under which we are operating. MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON I give you, no, no, one last minute, one minute and see, if you cannot make it, tough luck. MR KUNY You see, Mrs Mandela, the record shows that sedative, a sedative hypnotic drug was prescribed on the 30th of December. That is consistent with the medication which was, which with, sedative medication which was prescribed on your visit, on the 29th of December. Would you not agree with me as far as that is concerned? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA With great respect, Sir, ... (intervention). MR KUNY Ja. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... I can only tell you about the events of the 29th. MR KUNY Well, Mrs Mandela, I put it to you, if I may just, one aspect, do you intend to call witnesses who will corroborate the fact that you were in Brandfort on the 29th to the 31st of December in these proceedings? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not know I am on trial in these proceedings, Mr Chairman. MR KUNY You did ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA And I did not know I have come here for your inquisition. MR KUNY You did not consider it necessary to discuss this with your counsel that these witnesses should perhaps be made available to the TRC? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have no idea what atrocities are supposed to have been committed by my taking Cebekhulu on the 29th ... (intervention). MR KUNY You see ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... to the doctor. CHAIRPERSON Let that be your last question. MR KUNY If I may just put one last submission, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KUNY You see, what I want to put to you, Mrs Mandela, is that if you look at the evidence that is presented before this Commission, that the truth, in your hands, is a, is putty which you can simply mould ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Can we ... (intervention). MR KUNY ... to suit your own ends. MR SEMENYA Mr Chairman, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is a preposterous statement. I beg of you not to talk to me like that. CHAIRPERSON No, wait a bit, order please. I think, I mean, that the legal representative can put a proposition and I think, I mean, that you can dispute that fact. Though, again, one has to keep saying that it is probably better in a charge, sort of, environment to look for less ... (intervention). MR KUNY Well, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KUNY Mr Chairperson, I am merely doing my duty to my client. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA So am I. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Wait a little, I just, some of the families who have been involved in some of the matters that have been subjects here are in, have been in the audience and I do not think that I have properly recognised them and I would say, because they are going to be going away, there are some of them here. Mrs Sepei, could you please come up here, (... indistinct) and others. Where is Mrs Sepei? Order please. You want to come, and I think, I mean, Paul, I thought I saw Bishop. Well, I am going to be addressing you, yes. Order please. Usually, order please, usually in our victim hearings when the victims or survivors come into the hall which is the venue of the hearing, as an expression of our solidarity, as an expression of our respect for people who have suffered, whatever or whoever caused that suffered, we all stand and we usually have done that and we want to do this on and I just want to say that on behalf of our country, we hope that the pain and anguish of so many will be something that goes towards the healing of our land. We want them to know our very deepest sympathies for them for what they have suffered and we thank them and hope that they will have it in their hearts to reach out to those who may have caused them pain, to reach out in order for our land to be healed. Thank you very much. Order please. Please, please, please do not have your press interview here now, please. Thank you very much. Mr Makanjee. MR MAKANJEE I am Sanjay Makanjee ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Order please. Can you help us, because we really are pressed for time and the legal people are looking daggers at me and I am trying to be, yes, thank you very much. MR MAKANJEE I am acting on behalf of Mr Mekgwe, Mr Mono and Mr Ikaneng. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, in the trial in which you were charged with kidnapping and assault your defence was that you were in Brandfort at the time of the alleged incident. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR MAKANJEE Can you explain, then, why Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Kenneth Kgase have given evidence that you participated in the assaults on them? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I cannot explain, save to say that Mekgwe tried to explain on this forum that he was told that he must not make a statement different from the one he had made at the trial. You and I know that the trials of those days were riddled with statements, people were sometimes forced to make, depending entirely on what case it was, who was being charged. MR MAKANJEE Thank you. Can you also explain why Katiza Cebekhulu, John Morgan, Jerry Richardson and Xoliswa Falati have also stated that you were there and assaulted the young men? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I cannot explain, save to give the same explanation, Sir. MR MAKANJEE Can you explain why Mr Dempsey gave evidence at this hearing that the police also knew that you were not in Brandfort at the time that you said you were and ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, ... (intervention). MR MAKANJEE ... a fact, sorry Ma'am, a fact that your counsel did not dispute? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I am not aware of that, but I am aware of the fact that the police would have tried to extract a different version from mine for the obvious reasons. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, maybe my ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not recollect that. MR SEMENYA ... my understanding of Afrikaans is not good and I probably did not have my headsets on, but I do not seem to recall Dempsey saying the police knew that client was not in Brandfort. CHAIRPERSON Can you help us, ja? MR PIGOU My understanding of the evidence from Senior Superintendent Dempsey was that they had a number of statements from people from, including, I believe, one Shakes, Mr Johannes Tau, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not in Brandfort on the day in question. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON But, I mean, that was not the same thing as saying they knew. MR MAKANJEE My apologies, Mr Chairman. Ma'am, so am I correct, then, in saying that you cannot offer any explanation as to why all these people that I have named to you, have made this allegation? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I have sat here, Sir, for almost two weeks now, listening to fabrications about myself ... (intervention). MR MAKANJEE Are you, perhaps, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... from witnesses and saying the most ridiculous assertions about me. MR MAKANJEE Okay. Let me go on, Ma'am. You suggested in your evidence in-chief today that it would have been quite easy for the young men, who were allegedly kidnapped, to leave your Diepkloof property. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, the surroundings are such that anyone can leave as they please. MR MAKANJEE Would you not think that the men, having been seriously assaulted by members of the football club, having witnessed a near fatal assault of Stompie, that they were scared, afraid of, for their lives? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I honestly have no idea. As I say, my belief, if you saw the surroundings in my house, are that anyone can leave as they please. MR MAKANJEE You further stated that there is no need for you to get the versions of Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Kenneth Kgase with regard to the, their abduction, in your evidence in-chief. Is that correct?] MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I believed so at the time. MR MAKANJEE You also, then, said that you got visits on various occasions by various church leaders who came to express their concern about these young men who were at your place. Is that ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR MAKANJEE ... correct? Did this not alert you to any possible problems that may have been taking place and did that not, then, make you want to question the boys or the young men to find out how they were? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is why I have been reminded here that I did enquire from Richardson. I disbelieved at that stage. MR MAKANJEE My question was not whether you enquired from Richardson, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, it is whether you enquired from the boys or the young men themselves? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I did not ... (intervention). MR MAKANJEE Even after you ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... enquire from the boys themselves. I enquired from Richardson. MR MAKANJEE This is even after the church leaders came on various occasions to express their fears and concerns about these young men? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. MR MAKANJEE When did you see the youths, when did you first see the young men when you returned from Brandfort? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I would need to be reminded. I did see them quite a few days thereafter. MR MAKANJEE You said that you did not know, notice any injuries on them. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not to my memory, I did not. MR MAKANJEE Did you notice any injuries on Kenneth Kgase? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I do not recollect that. MR MAKANJEE You are aware that Mr Kgase escaped from your house on the seventh of January 1989? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I consequently learned so. MR MAKANJEE You are also aware from the evidence at your trial, that he was taken to Dr Martin Connel. Is this ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, so I ... (intervention). MR MAKANJEE ... correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... understood. MR MAKANJEE And I am sure you must also be aware that Dr Connel's evidence describes serious injuries which were clearly visible to Mr Kgase's face and body? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard that evidence at the trial. MR MAKANJEE Can you explain why you did not notice these injuries? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I heard that evidence at the trial. I did not notice any injuries, Sir. MR MAKANJEE You said in your evidence that the first time you became aware that the men abducted from the manse were being held against their will, was when you heard rumours. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Was when I heard? MR MAKANJEE The rumours, rumours. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, yes. MR MAKANJEE When did you first hear these rumours? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think when the first church leaders or community leaders came to express their concerns. MR MAKANJEE And at that stage you still did not see fit to actually question the men, whether they wanted to be there or not? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, as it was stated here, I think it was round about the fourth when I was visited by the community leaders. MR MAKANJEE Would this not have been the simplest way to deal with this problem? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I dealt with it by enquiring from Richardson who was more senior on the premises. MR MAKANJEE According to your evidence you released the men after meeting Dr Motlana. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct, Sir. MR MAKANJEE Now, Dr Motlana's evidence was that you released the men ten days after your visit? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It must have been when he himself came to collect them. MR MAKANJEE Are you saying that Dr Motlana was mistaken in what he testified regarding the facts surrounding the release of the boys? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not really ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Chairperson. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... sure of the exact ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Chairperson. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... date, Sir. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, my recollection of the evidence by Dr Motlana is that he recalls that he went to his house and his wife then advised him about certain children that had come there, but he himself remembers taking them there, it was ten days thereafter. So, we do not know when these children would have gone to Mr Motlana's house and seen Mr Motlana's wife. MR MAKANJEE Ma'am let me put ... (intervention). DR RANDERA Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Dr Randera. DR RANDERA I just want, I think my recollection is that Dr Motlana said that he actually went to the house, did not ask to see the children, was told that the children were there and that ten days later. So, he did actually go to the house and I agree with you that he did not see the children at his house, but there was a ten day intervening period. CHAIRPERSON Right you are. MR MAKANJEE Thank you Mr Chair. Now that we have clarified that aspect, I just want to put it to you that the reason for the boys being or the young men being released ten days after Dr Motlana's visit is that you waited for the injuries which they sustained, and I will read out the injuries for your own information, "On Mr Mekgwe there weretramtrack abrasions, bruising of the ribs, tram-track abrasions on his back and a laceration on his forehead and on Mr Mono there were healing tram-track abrasions, all characterised by new, slightly pinkish scar tissue, circular healing scars, dorsal aspect of left wrist and ...", there were various injuries, in other words, to them. What I am putting to you is that you released the boys ten days after the visit by Dr Motlana, because you wanted them to have sufficient time to let the injuries heal. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not even Dr Motlana led evidence to the effect that I withheld the children from him deliberately. MR MAKANJEE I ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He himself said he did not ask to see them and that is not true. If I had not seen the injuries, why would I wait for injuries to heal before he picked up the children if I had not seen them? MR MAKANJEE So, I, okay, let us just go on to Mr Ikaneng. I noticed that in your evidence today you chose not to deal with the evidence of Mr Ikaneng, that you assaulted him in your office in October 1988. May I assume that the reason for you not discussing this is that you have admitted to committing this assault? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, that is absolute nonsense, Sir. MR MAKANJEE So, why ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not assault Ikaneng and it is a ridiculous suggestion that I would have to assault him personally when evidence was being led here that I brewed gangsters in the house. MR MAKANJEE My question, then, to you is why at the time when you were discussing Mr Ikaneng, did you not deny the allegation that you had assaulted in October of 1988? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, first of all, if you can leave the, maybe push it away, because I notice you, when you want to emphasise a point, you bump. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is the Richardson phobia, he was doing it. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am sorry, I lost your question. MR MAKANJEE Sure. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think it was about Ikaneng. MR MAKANJEE Yes, my question to you was you are represented by counsel, did you not discuss that aspect of Mr Ikaneng's evidence with regard to your being led on that aspect, would you or not? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I merely responded to questions that were put across by my counsel. I have no problem at all in answering that if you should wish to ask a question. (end of side 4A). MR MAKANJEE Okay, can you tell me why or do you know of any reason that he would lie about the assaults on him by yourself? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If you knew township life, it did not matter who I was, I would not dare attempt to assault a young man of that age. MR MAKANJEE So, you cannot put forward a reason for why he would make this allegation? Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is a lie. MR MAKANJEE So, Mr Ikaneng, Mr Mekgwe, Mr Mono, Mr Dempsey, Mr Kgase, Mr Morgan, Mr Richardson, Ms Falati have all conspired to lie and implicate you. Is that what I am understanding you to mean? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They have lied, Sir. MR MAKANJEE Thank you. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They would know the reasons why. MR MAKANJEE Can you tell us the reasons why, Ma'am? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have just said they would know the reasons why. MR MAKANJEE I just want to ask one more question concerning your statements earlier in your evidence in-chief that guerrillas were sent to Mr Richardson's house, because your house was like a police station and it was unsafe. Is that correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct, Sir. MR MAKANJEE But, Ma'am, maybe I should point out this contradiction then. You stated that the boys who were seeking at your house were running away from the security branch. Surely, that is as equal a danger as having guerrillas in your house. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If you lived under those times, I was not the only one who was performing that task of looking after children who were running away from the system. MR MAKANJEE Yes, Ma'am, but my question is your reason for sending the guerrillas to Mr Richardson's house was that your house was not safe. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA They were trained guerrillas, these were youths just running away from the system in the township and they decided to seek refuge in the same manner they sought refuge at Paul Verryn's residence. MR MAKANJEE But, Ma'am, by implication they are trained guerrillas, they would be safer than the youths who were running from the security branch at your house. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not even you believe in that logic. MR MAKANJEE I do. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You would not and you are so South African, I can see you would not. DR BORAINE How are we getting on there? Are you moving towards the end? MR MAKANJEE I have nothing further. DR BORAINE Nothing further, thank you very much. MR JORDI My name is Peter Jordi, I appear for the Sono family, the Shabalala family and the Chili family. Madam, your attorney has handed out this letter dated the 24th of May 1995 and I, they did not comment on its contents adversely when they did so. So, I take it you accept its contents. Is that correct? This letter addressed to the Commissioner of Police? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR JORDI So you accept its contents? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI And I note there that they say that they were acting according to their instructions. They say, "We act on behalf of Mrs Mandela according to our instructions...", etcetera, etcetera. So, they were acting on your instructions when they wrote this letter? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, Sir. MR JORDI Right. You have been seen in public dressed in a camouflage uniform. Am I right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR JORDI Right and that uniform was the uniform of Umkhonto weSizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. MR JORDI So, you were wearing the uniform of an Umkhonto weSizwe soldier? Is that right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct, yes. MR JORDI Right. During, we all know that you have played a prominent role in the anti-apartheid struggle and I am sure that during the dark days of apartheid, perhaps, even after the unbanning of the ANC, there must have been times when you thought that you were at risk of being killed during the course of the struggle and I am sure that you accepted that risk as just something to bear, a petty burden to bear given your prominent role in the struggle. Is that right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That risk exists to this day. That is why there was a bomb scare yesterday. MR JORDI But you were quite willing to bear the risk of dying during the course of the struggle? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA All of us. MR JORDI All of, yes, all of the people ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA All those who fought for liberation. MR JORDI That is right, but you, I am asking not about other people and how they felt, I am asking about your particular feelings. You must have felt prepared to die for the struggle? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I was one of those who were prepared to die for the struggle. MR JORDI Quite prepared to put your life on the line for the struggle. Is that right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not in an irresponsible manner. MR JORDI No, obviously, you do not want to just throw your life away? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA By that ... (intervention). MR JORDI No soldier wants to throw his or her life away ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, well, I ... (intervention). MR JORDI ... during the course of a struggle. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, Sir. I do not really understand your line of questioning, yes. MR JORDI Ja, but, all right. DR BORAINE I think you have made the point Mr Jordi. Go ahead. MR JORDI And you said during the Section 29 inquiry that you were a member of Umkhonto weSizwe during the period under discussion. In other words, the period particularly of 1988 and 1989. Am I right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. MR JORDI So, you were a member of the underground army of the African National Congress, you have worn the uniform of an African National Congress solider, an Umkhonto weSizwe soldier, and you were prepared to die for the struggle? Now, I put it to you that someone who is prepared to die, someone who is a soldier, someone who is involved in the underground war is not going to throw their life away lightly and that they are prepared to kill as well as to die. Am I right? What do you say about that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not understand what you are saying. MR JORDI So, as a soldier, who was prepared to die, you were not prepared to kill? Were you prepared to kill during the course of the struggle, you were a soldier? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was not prepared to kill. MR JORDI A soldier who is not ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Really. MR JORDI ... prepared to kill. All right, well, I will ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was an operative ... (intervention). MR JORDI ... leave that issue. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... of MK. MR JORDI You wore the uniform, you were prepared ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was an ... (intervention). MR JORDI ... to die. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... operative of MK. I did not go to Lusaka, to Angola to go and train, I was an operative on the ground ... (intervention). MR JORDI I do not think ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... underground. MR JORDI ... I can take this issue further with you at the moment. I note, further, that you have said already in your evidence today that you had complete confidence in Jerry Richardson up until yesterday when he himself admitted that he was a police informer. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I had no reason to believe the stories I saw ... (intervention). MR JORDI All right. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... because worse stories had been written about me. MR JORDI So, you agree you said that you had complete confidence ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had confidence in Jerry Richardson until he sat here and confessed to being a spy and confessed to six murders. MR JORDI Right. When did you know that he had handed in his amnesty application and that in his amnesty application he claimed that he had murdered Lolo Sono, Sibuniso Shabalala, Kuki Zwane, who else, Stompie Sepei and various other people? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think I heard in the in-camera hearing. MR JORDI In the in-camera hearing. So, that must have been in about September 1997? When was the in-camera hearing? Is that right? DR BORAINE That is right. MR JORDI So, in September 1997, at the very latest, you knew that he had admitted or claimed to have performed these murders? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Ja, so I heard. MR JORDI And you still had confidence in him until yesterday? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, that was a matter of expressing oneself in the sense that then it was an in-camera hearing, Jerry Richardson was not here, I myself had been associated or linked, the famous press expression, linked to eight murders. What reason would I have had to believe that the things that were alleged Richardson had done, ... (intervention). MR JORDI So, despite ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... were, in fact, true? MR JORDI So, despite the fact that he himself had claimed in his own amnesty application that he had committed numerous murders, you still had confidence in him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was not shown the amnesty application. MR JORDI You said you knew about it in September 1997. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA A reference ... (intervention). DR BORAINE Mr Jordi. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... was made to it here. DR BORAINE Hold a minute, please. Mr Jordi, please do not interrupt the witness. I know you are pressured for time, but give Mrs Mandela an opportunity to reply and if you could just conduct it a little more friendly, please. MR JORDI All right. I beg your pardon, Mr Commissioner. Sorry, Madam, have you finished? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not even know what you were saying there, Mr Chairman ... (intervention). MR JORDI Well, you said, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... you were rattling so many things that ... MR JORDI All right. You said that you knew of his amnesty application, which ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was not shown the amnesty application ... (intervention). MR JORDI Mr Commissioner, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... will you ask the ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... by this forum. MR JORDI ... witness not to interrupt me, please? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Oh, I thought you have finished. DR BORAINE What is the expression, goose for the gander or whatever it is, let us both try and help each other. Okay, let us go. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I thought I was helping him. MR JORDI Yes, it was, I could not remember the phrase. Now, when did you know that Mr Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of Stompie Sepei? When did you know that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA When he was sentenced? MR JORDI Yes, when he was sentenced. So, that was in 19 ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What year was that, 19 ... (intervention). MR JORDI 91? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI Or thereabouts. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Ja. MR JORDI So, quite a few years ago you knew that he had been convicted, beyond a reasonable doubt, of having committed the murder of Stompie Sepei, a 14 year old boy, which he has now admitted to. So, the conviction must have been a correct conviction. Do you agree with me? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I do. MR JORDI It was a just and proper conviction. Is that right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, if he killed Stompie. MR JORDI And you admit that he did kill Stompie? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI Right. And you knew that in ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA On his own admission. MR JORDI And you knew that in 1991 that he had been convicted of the murder of Stompie? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI Yet, until yesterday, you had confidence in Mr Jerry Richardson? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA In relation to him being an informer and all the other additional murders. MR JORDI So, in respect of some aspects you had confidence and in respect of other aspects he was just a murderer of a child? Is that what you are saying? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The evidence which was led here was new to me ... (intervention). MR JORDI But ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... and it did not mean because he was convicted of killing Stompie, I lost all confidence in him. MR JORDI You say the evidence was new to you. You knew he was convicted ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA About the others. MR JORDI ... in 1991 of ... (intervention). DR BORAINE I will not warn both of you again. Please, please give each other a chance to finish, both you Sir and you Madam. Thank you very much. MR JORDI I just want to note that I think I was interrupted there, so I do not think the warning should be directed at me. DR BORAINE I think you are both doing very well, but now you will stop it and carry on. MR JORDI I just want to note again that it is not on new evidence that is being presented that we suddenly know Jerry Richardson murdered Stompie Sepei. We knew that in 1991, you must have had suspicions about that quite a long time before he was convicted and you knew about his amnesty application in September 1997. Yet, you say, you said you had complete confidence in him. In other words, you had complete confidence, I put it to you, you said that you had complete confidence in him and that you must have known that he was a murderer when you had that confidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA For your information, I have complete confidence in myself and I was convicted of kidnapping, a crime I did not commit. MR JORDI Well, we will come to that later. Let us just discuss the case of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. You have said already today that you accept that Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala had disappeared off the face of the earth. Am I correct? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, it was what was alleged. MR JORDI And you have heard the evidence of Mr Nicodemus Sono when he says that he saw you on the 13th of November 1988, you were in the company of his son, who was in a beaten condition, you refused to allow his son to return to him, the father, and that he has not seen his son since. You heard that evidence. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard that evidence and I disputed it. MR JORDI Yes. Well, the result would be that you would be liable to prosecution for various serious crimes if you did admit it and you would probably have to plead ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are most welcome ... (intervention). MR JORDI ... guilty, so ... MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... to proceed with any action ... (intervention). MR JORDI I expect you to ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... if you so wish. MR JORDI ... deny it. Okay, then you heard the evidence of Mrs Shabalala who said that on the 14th of November her son said that he was not going to stand by while Lolo Sono had gone off to your house to try and prove his innocence. He, Sibuniso Shabalala, would go there too, to your house, to try and assist Mr Lolo Sono to prove his innocence. You have heard that evidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard that evidence, I am not omnipotent, I would not have known what actually took place in Mrs Shabalala's mind. MR JORDI Okay, and you have also heard the evidence of Mrs Shabalala that after her son went to her house, went to your house, her son phoned her, a day or two later, and that during the course of the conversation, which was terminated during the course of it, he said that he and Lolo Sono were at some place. You heard that? Yes or no? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard that. MR JORDI Ja. So, we know, if we accept the evidence of Mr Sono and Mrs Shabalala, that their children disappeared and that they must have been alive sometime after they disappeared because of the phone call and I put it to you that this fits in with the evidence of Mr Jerry Richardson when he says that after he was released from custody on or about the 24th of November 1988, the children were in your custody, tied up in your garage in an assaulted condition. What do you say about that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is a preposterous suggestion. MR JORDI Yes, you had total ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was one of his hallucinations. MR JORDI Yes, you had total confidence in Mr Jerry Richardson until yesterday, now you are suddenly rejecting his evidence. All of a sudden. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not suddenly rejecting evidence from Jerry Richardson. MR JORDI Tell me. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You saw Jerry Richardson here, he made a spectacle of himself. MR JORDI Yes, and ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA And anyone who believes in the evidence led by Jerry Richardson, I have a serious problem with. MR JORDI Yes, my point exactly. You were prepared to believe Mr Jerry Richardson until yesterday, despite the kind of person he is. He gave a magnificent performance in the witness box and he is a convicted murderer and you knew that, any way. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I saw his performance here ... (intervention). MR JORDI Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... and I saw that no one, in any ones right mind, would have further confidence in him. MR JORDI That is right. I take it he has not suddenly turned mad? He must have been like that for some time? You knew Jerry Richardson, was he like this since you knew him or has he suddenly turned strange? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not think you are correct in asking me for that opinion, I would not have operated with Jerry Richardson if he was the spectacle he was here yesterday. MR JORDI But you operated, you were prepared to have complete confidence in him when he was a convicted murderer? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At the time there was absolutely nothing wrong with Jerry Richardson ... (intervention). MR JORDI Yet, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... he had committed a criminal act, like we have criminals all over this country, holding very senior positions in Parliament. MR JORDI Yes, that is part of the problem, but they are not murderers of children. At least they are not, they have not killed a 14 year old. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Then I am not ... (intervention). MR JORDI Do you know them ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... South African. MR JORDI I am being interrupted again ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If you are ... (intervention). MR JORDI ... Mr Chairman. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... saying ... (intervention). DR BORAINE Mr Jordi, I have held my tongue whilst you were interrupting Mrs Mandela on several occasions. This is the last time I am giving the warning to both of you. Please reduce the heat and you have two more minutes and then you are over. MR JORDI Then I am over for Mr Sono. I have then got to move on to the other families. DR BORAINE Yes, that is why I am saying get a move on. MR JORDI Then Mr Michael Siyakamela, he is the brother of your daughter's child. Am I right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, that is correct. I just want to finish up the question you raised before the Deputy-Chairperson interrupted us. You said at least they are not murderers of children, then you are not South African. Mr de Klerk ordered the killing of little children in Umtata simply because he believed they were PAC operatives ... (intervention). MR JORDI You have got. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... children who were studying during the night were shot at in the early hours of the morning. Let us not make statements like that. They are irresponsible ... (intervention). MR JORDI This, excuse me, would you please warn the witness to stop grand-standing. I have only got two minutes and she is taking up my time with a lecture to me. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am answering you. DR BORAINE Mrs Mandela, please. Can I just remind both of you, order please. Can I just remind both of you that we are not dealing with trifling matters, we are talking about very, very serious issues of allegations of murder, including children. Now, let us get on with it, ask the questions and move on. MR JORDI Well, let us get to the next issue. Michael Siyakamela, he is the brother of your daughter's father, I beg your pardon. He is the brother of the child of your, he ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Can I help you? He is the, can I help you? MR JORDI Yes, please do. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He is the brother to Zinzi's eldest daughter. MR JORDI In other words, he is one ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA (...Indistinct). MR JORDI ... Zinzi's children? He is the brother of the father of Zinzi's child? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI Right. Is he insane or given to hallucinations or given to making absurd statements? You agree he is not? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He is not insane. MR JORDI He is not, he is not insane, he is not given to making, to hallucinations or making absurd statements? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI Right. Now, he made a statement to Mr Dempsey which was confirmed in a statement to Adv van Vuuren, an officer of the Court, to the effect that you were seen in the company of Lolo Sono in a beaten condition, and I need not say, in circumstances exactly as described by Mr Nicodemus Sono. What do you have to say about his statement? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If he made such a statement, I can imagine how much he must have been tortured. You are not listening. MR JORDI Yes, he may have made an initial statement to Mr Dempsey and who knows in what circumstances that was extracted, but if ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I can imagine. MR JORDI Yes, but in subsequent, in, subsequently he made a statement to the, to an officer of the Court, Adv van Vuuren. He then made a similar statement to Mr Pigou, the other day, certainly that could not have been under duress, he is a TRC official. He also made a similar statement to Director Morobe, who was a former Umkhonto weSizwe intelligence officer and I doubt that that was made under duress. So, he has repeated this statement on numerous occasions and he is indirectly related to your own family. What do you have to say about his statement which fits very nicely with the evidence of Nicodemus Sono and Jerry Richardson? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I cannot account for statements made under those circumstances. As I said, those statements you allege were made or rather this particular statement was made by Siyakamela, I have no idea, ... (intervention). MR JORDI All right. I just want ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... save to say that people were tortured to make certain statements and evidence was led from this forum here, to the effect that some of the witnesses were, in fact, persuaded by officials from here. That evidence was led here. MR JORDI Okay, we agree. Then I want to just note that there have been allegations that you have tampered with Mr Siyakamela, that Mr Dempsey noted that the Sono docket, which has conveniently gone missing, amounted to a prima facie case against you for kidnapping, possibly murder, possibly assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, that there was a statement by Adv Klaas von Lieres in the newspaper on the second of December 1997 to the effect that he declined to prosecute you in the Sono case, because of a political decision you made, that Mr Gift Ntombeni described a situation where he was assaulted and then held in your premises for four days in similar circumstances to that alleged by Jerry Richardson in the case of Lolo Sono, that you have been found guilty as an accessory to kidnapping by the highest court in the land and that you were well represented in that case and ... (intervention). DR BORAINE Mr Jordi, just get to your point please, it is a very long statement. MR JORDI I am just trying to summarise (...indistinct). DR BORAINE Yes, thank you. MR JORDI (...Indistinct) time is running out. And then that you also chose to exercise the right to silence. What do you have to say about these aspects of the case against you for the, at very least, kidnapping of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I hope I am not really expected to respond to those ramblings. If you want to suggest that I had access to documents held by van Lieres and that court file disappear and I had access to that type of situation, then, of course, there is something very seriously wrong with your reading of that. MR JORDI So, my description of a prima facie case against you for kidnapping of Lolo Sono is not taken seriously by you. You say it is just a bunch of rambled statements? Now, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are rambling, because what on earth would I have to do with the disappearing of files in van Lieres' desk? How on earth can I have access to police files when, to this day, I am under surveillance? MR JORDI One last question. DR BORAINE One last question, Mr Jordi. MR JORDI In the interview with NBS News on the first of February 1989, which has been referred to already, you, the following is set out, "Why then are people like Desmond Tutu taking shots at you through the football team saying that it should be disbanded?", and you reply, "I am quite surprised at him, because he is well aware of the situation back at home. I understand he made the statement overseas. Firstly, Desmond Tutu knows that I have no bodyguards, I do not need bodyguards, I do not need to be protected from my people.". Did you say that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MR JORDI You did? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA It is possible I said that. MR JORDI And then you have already agreed that you instructed your attorney, Seriti, Mbundla and Partners, to write this letter dated the 24th of May 1995 to the Commissioner of Police and I just want to read to you out of that letter. There it says, "That in respect of the Dlamini and Mbatha allegations, the investigation into Dr Asvat, that it is a murder investigation against our client and her former bodyguards." These two statements, both of which you have acknowledged as yours, are mutually contradictory and cannot be reconciled and I want to put it to you that you are prepared to say and do anything that suits you from moment to moment. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What cannot be ... (intervention). MR KUNY What do you have to say? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... reconciled? What cannot be reconciled. Just read that again. MR JORDI Let me just read it again. I read to you from the NBS interview of the first of February 1989, which you have already acknowledged is ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I understand the first one. MR JORDI Right. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Can you read the second one? MR JORDI And that is to the effect that you do not find it necessary to have bodyguards. That is on the first of February 1989. Now, we remember that Dr Asvat was killed, I think, on the 27th of January 1989, right. So, the interview was after the murder of Dr Asvat. Now, the investigation, this letter refers to an investigation being conducted by the police into the murder of Dr Asvat and here you say, "... that it is a murder investigation against our client ...", in other words, you, "... and your former bodyguards.", to paraphrase the letter. Here you say that they were your former bodyguards, here you say you do not have bodyguards and I put that those statements are mutually contradictory and that you are prepared to say and do anything that suits you from moment to moment. What do you have to say? MR SEMENYA Chairperson. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is ludicrous. MR SEMENYA Chairperson. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You are distorting facts, you are quoting that letter totally out of ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Chairperson. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA .... context. I will let my lawyer ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Chair. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... respond. DR BORAINE Mr Semenya. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is really a suggestion. MR SEMENYA Chair. DR BORAINE You are interrupting your client, please continue. MR SEMENYA Yes, I think we need to contextualise the statements. The interview is of first February 1989. The letter relates to bodyguards in 1997. Of course, as a Parliamentarian, she has been placed with security and bodyguards. Now, to say that it is a mutually contradictory and, therefore, must demonstrate that client will admit and not admit certain things when it suits her, not against that background, it would be an unfair statement to make. DR BORAINE Mr Jordi. MR JORDI Mr Chairman, ... (intervention). DR BORAINE Briefly. MR JORDI Yes, I would like to briefly reply to what Mr Semenya, my learned friend, has said. He says that this letter relates to bodyguards that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in 1997. Well, first of all, the letter was written in 1995. So, he is mistaken on that aspect and, secondly, this letter refers to the murder investigation conducted into the death of the late Dr Asvat, which, the death took place on the first, I mean, on the 27th of January 1989. So, the letter, to put it into context, this letter refers to her former bodyguards being involved in a murder investigation in respect of an incident which occurred on the 27th of January 1989. So, it is referring to her former bodyguards of 1989, not of 1997, as my learned colleague has said. My learned colleague is clearly mistaken. DR BORAINE Thank you. Does that complete your ... MR JORDI Well, unless my learned friend has something else to say, I think I should now shut up shop. DR BORAINE Good. Well, he is shaking his head and thank you very much indeed. I think ... (intervention). MR JORDI Thank you Mr Chairman and I want to thank Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Thank you. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Thank you Sir. DR BORAINE Thank you. Well now. So, I would like to have an indication of how many more have still got questions. One, two, three. Yes, all right, you will appreciate that there are three of you, there is also the panel, Mr Semenya, yes, Piers. So, please, be as brief as you can. Who is going first? Ms Hassen. MS HASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Just to put your mind at east, I do not intend dealing with the issues exhausted by my learned colleagues. I will just put to the witness my client's version and just deal with certain aspects related thereto. Just to identify myself, Hasiena Hassen. I act, I am the representative of Charles Zwane, also known as Bobo. Madam, Charles Zwane said that he was present at the first meeting when the idea of the Mandela United Football Club was introduced. He further advised that you were assisting the club with the provisions of uniforms and such. Did you assist the club in any other way? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I did. MS HASSEN Can you explain ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If I ... (intervention). MS HASSEN ... further? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... understood the question. Did you ask if I assisted the club with uniforms? There is a bit of noise, I am sorry. MS HASSEN All right. I did say, yes, you assisted the club with the provisions of uniforms, those ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MS HASSEN ... are my clients instructions. What I need to know, did you assist the club in other way? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If? MS HASSEN Did you assist the club in any other way? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The club? MS HASSEN Yes, the Mandela Football Club. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I assisted them with the uniforms only. MS HASSEN Was that your only assistance? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MS HASSEN May I ask where you obtained the funds to purchase such uniforms? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I must have obtained the funds from sources who use to assist us during those underground days. MS HASSEN Thank you. In your statement to the TRC you said that Bobo, who is also known as Charles Zwane, lived in your house. Charles denies that he lived in your house, but admits to visiting your house as he was Sis Thembu Buthulezi's friend. Can you give us the correct version now? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He was, in fact, in and out and if he did not live permanently there, he would be quite correct, because sometimes he would have put up with the other boys. MS HASSEN All right, I just wish to, I just wish now to put it to you that Charles denies emphatically ever staying overnight at your place. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA The version he gives must be the correct one. MS HASSEN Thank you. Do you know if Bobo was a MK cadre? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I subsequently learnt he had been recruited by one of the cadres. MS HASSEN Do you know if Bobo was a member of the Mandela United Football Club? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not to my knowledge. MS HASSEN Thank you. Charles said that or Bobo said that he received training in the use of an AK-47 by Oupa Seheri in Zinzi's bedroom at your house. Was this a common practice? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA What? MS HASSEN Was this a common practice? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, not at all, not to my knowledge. I learnt of those details here, in fact. MS HASSEN So, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not think they came out even in his trial, to my recollection. MS HASSEN All right. So, in other words, are you going to confirm that MK cadres were never trained at your house? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No MK cadres trained in my house. That would have been grossly irresponsible, at least to my knowledge. MS HASSEN Thank you. Charles further stated that Oupa Seheri was assisted by members of the Mandela United Football Club to retrieve Charles' scorpion stolen at a shebeen and that you were present at the house before they left. Were you aware of this at the time? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, no, I was not aware of their activities. I was aware of the fact that Thembiso was using my car, a question which has just arisen here. MS HASSEN Okay. So, you did not try to elicit why so many young men jumped into vehicles and then moved off from your house, including Sis Thembo and my client, Bobo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I had no such information that many young men jumped into my car. My car was in Thembiso's possession. MS HASSEN All right. Charles Zwane denies ever having bombed the Chili's home. He denies that he killed Finkie Msome and he states that he confessed to this and to other murders only because he was tortured. Did you believe Charles when he said that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Did I? MS HASSEN Did you believe Charles when he said that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am sorry, I do not get the last part. MS HASSEN All right. Did you believe Charles when he said that he was tortured to confess to all these, this arson, to these murders? In fact, there were nine murders. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Absolutely, I believed that and I saw him breaking down here. MS HASSEN I could not help notice that you broke down as well. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was very deeply hurt by that, because I know Charles. At least, what I knew of him, I did not think he was capable of nine killings. MS HASSEN Yes, thank you. In his confession, furthermore, Charles is alleged to have said that there was a decision to attack the Chili household as a result of the death of a Mandela United Football Club member, Maxwell Madondo. Do you know anything of this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was a very cruel thing to say. I know absolutely nothing about that. I know about the death of Madondo. To this day I do not know the actual truth and reason why that child, who had gone to school, was killed on his way back from school. MS HASSEN All right. In cross-examination with Mr Vally today, you said that you were associated with the burning of Mrs Chili's house in the media. Why do you think this was so, especially since my client was convicted for this crime? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I honestly cannot understand why Bobo was convicted of that crime and how could I be associated with the burning of Dudu Chili's house. As I stated here, I have absolutely nothing against Dudu Chili, I would have had no reason whatsoever to send anybody to do that. I was as disgusted and hurt as she was when her house was burnt. I was (...indistinct), because I had gone through a similar experience. MS HASSEN Thank you. I put it to you that the possible reason for this could be, because there were so many members of the Mandela United Football Club present at her house before, just before the burning and that this football club was associated with you, at least, their activities were, because you ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Where ... (intervention). MS HASSEN ... assisted in their formation. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Sadly, I really would not deny or accept that, because I really do not know why that happened, save what is subsequently heard, that there were disputes between the youths who were in my premises and those at Daliwonga and I do not know why they picked on Bobo. DR BORAINE Ms Hassen, you have one more minute. MS HASSEN My last submission to you, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I am trying to grapple with the evidence provided here today. Your house was a shelter for everybody, especially for displaced young men, who came to you looking for schooling, for help, for assistance from running away from this, from the special branch, you were the mother of the nation, you were the guardian of the youth, you were aware of the notorious activities of the members of the club even after it was disbanded, yet you did nothing to stop this. I put it to you that you, if anybody at all, at that time could stop the activities of these young man, it would have been you. What do you say to this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I could not have stopped activities outside of my house which I had no knowledge of. The team was disbanded and the youth continued wearing the uniforms. Perhaps my hindsight now is that it might have been at the, an idea to have taken those uniforms and if they had not continued using those uniforms, there may not have been the perceptions which subsequently were all over. MS HASSEN Thank you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. I just want to say to you again that they were staying at your house, most of them who stayed at your house were convicted of all these offences and that. Surely, you could have addressed them whilst they were at your house after having knowledge of these activities. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Which ones actually were convicted in my premises and continued staying in my premises? MS HASSEN Take my client, for instance, Bobo. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA You yourself have said he dispels he has never stayed at my house, but he was in and out. You are contradicting yourself, Madam. MS HASSEN I agree with you, Mrs ... (intervention). DR BORAINE Order. That is totally unnecessary, please let us retain the dignity of this hearing. You have already asked your last question. Please do not push your luck. MS HASSEN All right, thank you. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. MS HASSEN Thanks. DR BORAINE Ms Sita. MS SITA I am Kalpana Sita representing Mr John Morgan. Madam, I will confine my cross-examination only where it relates to my client, so I will not be that long. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA And I have a problem hearing you properly. MS SITA I said that I am only going to confine to, my cross-examination to Mr, where it relates to my client, Mr Morgan. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA All right. MS SITA Madam, do you know Maxwell Madondo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Do I? MS SITA Do you know Maxwell Madondo? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, I do. MS SITA Was he a MK cadre? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Oh, no, he was a young school boy who came with a group of youngsters from Natal. MS SITA Did he ever stay at your house, Ma'am? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, he did stay at my house. MS SITA Did you see the body of Maxwell Madondo at the scene after his murder? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not. MS SITA Well, Mr Morgan testified that he personally drove you to the scene where the body of Maxwell Madondo was lying. Mr Gift Ntomeni also confirmed this when he testified that he saw you and Mr Morgan at the scene. What is your comment, Ma'am? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is not true. MS SITA I did, I put it to you, Madam, that your statement that you were nowhere the scene is not true. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I have just told you my view. I was not there, I was not on the scene. MS SITA Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you at any stage tell any, some, anybody or refer to Stompie Sepei as a spy? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Can you bring your thing nearer. I have a problem hearing you properly. MS SITA Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you at any stage tell anybody or refer to Stompie Sepei as a spy? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, I did not. MS SITA Okay. Mr Morgan testified that the day after the assault on Stompie and the others, he saw Stompie. He says, I quote, "He could hardly, he ...", that is he is referring to Stompie, "... could hardly pick up his own coffee. Winnie was there. She said, John, help that umkwembe.", which means spy. What is your response Madam? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is a pathetic fabrication from your client, I really regard is senile now. MS SITA Mrs Mandela, did Dr Asvat at any stage come to your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youths, but before the death of Stompie Sepei? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Did? MS SITA Did Dr Asvat at any time come to your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youth, but before the death of Stompie Sepei? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, not to my recollection. MS SITA My client, again, Mr Morgan, testified that he saw Dr Asvat at your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youth. He heard Dr Asvat tell you that Stompie should be taken to hospital. Ms Falati also stated that Dr Asvat was there. She testified that she particularly remembered this, because Dr Asvat did not greet her as he walked out on his way out. Mr Morgan also heard from (...indistinct) the following day that Dr Asvat had been there and that he wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital. What is your comment, Ma'am? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Of course, as you know now, it is a pathetic fabrication on the part of your client. Not even the boys themselves, not even Mekgwe and the other youth confirmed that they were seen by any doctor. That is his hallucination. MS SITA Mr Morgan did not testify that Dr Asvat saw any of the boys, Ma'am, he just testified that he saw Dr Asvat at your house. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Dr Asvat did not come to my house on that day. MS SITA Did you at any time instruct Mr Morgan to take Jerry Richardson and the other boys to the Methodist manse? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I did not instruct your client to take Falati and Richardson to the manse. MS SITA Mr Morgan stated again that you personally instructed him to take Richardson and the other boys to the Methodist manse in the minibus, in the bus. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA As I have stated here, he is totally confused. MS SITA Madam, do you still maintain that you were not present when the assaults on the youth took place? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I was not. MS SITA I have difficulty with your answer for the following reason, Madam. Not only did Mr Morgan and the others who testified here say that you were present, but Mr Morgan even remembered a tiny detail which may be insignificant to you, but may give us indication that you were there. He stated that he refused to let you sit on his chair and that one of the youth then brought a chair for you. Mr Richardson also confirmed this, Madam. What is your response? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That was the evidence led by those youngsters in the trial and I am not surprised that Morgan would make completely fabricating stories of that sort. MS SITA Madam, why would Mr Morgan fabricate all this evidence? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Why did he fabricate this evidence he led here, totally against what he said in the trial? MS SITA You heard him, he said he lied to protect you, Madam. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA He is the last person to have had the capacity to protect me. MS SITA Madam, you stated earlier, that you do not need protection from a person of Mr Morgan's calibre, yet you found it fit that he could be your driver at times, Madam. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA At the time, I can assure you, he was not as senile as he is now. DR BORAINE Ms Sita, are you finished? MS SITA Sir, there is just one more question. You have stated that you do not, in your evidence in chief today you stated that you do not attach any importance to information received from Mr John Morgan. Is that correct, Madam? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Now? MS SITA Yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, now MS SITA Yet you see it fit to attach importance to the fact when he states that when the boys came out of the Methodist manse, they came out freely, voluntarily, toyi-toying. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have explained that ... (intervention). MS SITA So, ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA ... at the time he was all right. MS SITA So, you see fit for the Commission to attach importance to that statement made by him? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA We stated before you here that he now does everything for money and that money had to be put on the table for him to say whatever you wanted him to say. MS SITA I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Indeed, Madam. DR BORAINE Thank you. Please, do not comment on the witness, the legal representative. Could you state your name and who you represent please? MS COPPING-PERVAAS Yes, certainly. My name is Nicole Copping-Pervaas. I represent Mr Mbatha. DR BORAINE Thank you, please go ahead. MS COPPING-PERVAAS Good afternoon Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Good afternoon, Ma'am. MS COPPING-PERVAAS I have just got a few questions. I should not be too long with you. The first question I want to ask you is when did you first hear of or rather hear about Mr Mbatha? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I heard about that Mbatha when we received information which was given to my attorneys office, that they had been assaulted. MS COPPING-PERVAAS Was that this letter that you wrote, your attorneys wrote on the 24th of May? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes. MS COPPING-PERVAAS Referring to that letter, it says, who, sorry, just to go back, who actually gave you or your attorneys that information that he had been assaulted? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Goodness me, I would not know how they gather their intelligence information. MS COPPING-PERVAAS So, somehow, it was just gathered and it came to your attention? You do not know by whom? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am sure if you are South African you know that information gathering from intelligence is a certain privilege of certain people. MS COPPING-PERVAAS Because according to my client, he said to me that when he was in jail he was in isolation and he was only guarded by White prison warders and he cannot understand how that information could have leaked out to you or to your attorneys. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I really would not know. I am so sorry I cannot help you in that regard. MS COPPING-PERVAAS Okay. I just want to read some statements I have regarding Katiza Cebekhulu. The first statement I will read to you is the statement made by Major Moodley when he went to the United Kingdom to interview Mr Cebekhulu. In the statement he says, I am reading paragraph 4.1, halfway in that paragraph it says, "Morgan and Winnie went, when two persons unknown to him came into the house and spoke to Winnie. He was then told by Winnie to take the two people and show them Dr Asvat's house. He then accompanied these to Black males in their motor car and pointed out the house where Dr Asvat was. They then brought him back to Winnie's house and left him there and went away." That is just the first statement. This statement is then Mr Cebekhulu's statement and he says in paragraph 11, "Mrs ...", sorry, "He took two young men, two young men came to see Mrs Mandela in her home one evening. Mrs Mandela had called me and instructed me to drive with them and show them where Dr Asvat's surgery was and in which street. I showed them the surgery." The next sentence says, "I had not seen these men in Mrs Mandela's house before, nor had I met them in any other place though neither of them had any family or other connection with myself of which I was aware." And then just the third statement is from Mr Tulani, Dlamini Tulani, ag, Tulani Dlamini, sorry, and he says here, "She called a child and said that the child must call Katiza. The child went out and a while later Katiza came into the room. Winnie then spoke to him and said to him to show these people the person and the place in Rockville." All these statements that I have read, basically, they all confirm one thing, that neither Mr Dlamini nor Mr Mbatha nor Mr Cebekhulu ever knew each other before you asked Mr Cebekhulu to show these people, Mr Dlamini and Mr Mbatha, where Dr Asvat's surgery was. What is your comment there? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am astounded at such rich imagination. DR BORAINE Mrs Mandela, just please answer the question ... (intervention). MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Such fabrication ... (intervention). DR BORAINE ... please. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Such fabrications are absolutely unbelievable. I do not know what you are talking about. None of those things took place whatsoever. You heard your clients, rather the evidence of Cebekhulu, which was contradicted by Richardson when he claimed that I had stabbed Stompie and, honestly, really, for me to have to sit here and answer those ridiculous allegations, it is a source of great pain to me. DR BORAINE Mrs Mandela, can I just say that each lawyer has been instructed, as yours was. She is acting on instructions, she is not putting the questions just because she wants to. So, please, if you could just answer the question without making all the comments. You have answered the question, next question please. MS COPPING-PERVAAS My next question is, is that, yes, I did hear the evidence that Mr Richardson said yesterday that he denies that you stabbed Stompie, but the one thing that is very clear to me and, maybe I am misunderstanding it and you can clear it up for me, is that according to my client, Mr Dlamini, and Mr Cebekhulu, they never knew each other. So, here were three people that never ever met each other before and never ever saw each other again until they actually came to this TRC. They never ever saw each other. They were all in prison, in different places all over the world and, yet, they all have the exact same story and the exact same statement. Now, if this is a fabrication, I do not understand how they all can have the exact same ludicrous fabrication. MR SEMENYA Chairperson, I do not know whether we can be assisted by Mr Vally and them. I seem to recall that at a certain point these people were in the same cells, at a certain point. MR PIGOU Yes, that has been alleged that Mbatha and Dlamini and Cebekhulu were in the same cells by, I think, Senior Superintendent H T Moodley, but I must point out, he has never actually proved that. He has never actually provided cell registers and that information has not been made available to the Commission. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I am sorry ... (intervention). MR SEMENYA Well, did, the question must be, with respect, Chairperson, if the TRC proves the converse, I mean, to treat the evidence of witnesses as suspiciously as this, it is hardly fair even by them, with respect. DR BORAINE Can you restate your question, please, and Mrs Mandela, if you can answer it as briefly as you can. MS COPPING-PERVAAS All I want to know is your opinion in that, I hope I can restate it, because it just seems to me that here were three people who claimed that they had never ever seen each other until you asked Mr Cebekhulu to point, to go take them to Dr Asvat's room. After that they never ever saw each other again until, according to my client, they saw each other and they realised only here that that, in fact, was the young man who showed them where the surgery was. Before that they had never ever seen each other and yet we have three, four separate statements all saying the exact same thing. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I really have no idea how they managed to weave that web of such statements. DR BORAINE Thank you. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know what you are talking about, honestly. DR BORAINE Thank you. MS COPPING-PERVAAS I have no further questions, thank you. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. That concludes the questions from legal representatives. We now have questions from the panel and I am going to ask Dr Mgojo if he has a question to put to Mrs Mandela. DR MGOJO Mr Deputy-Chairperson, I just have only one question, because we are pressed by time. I am going to avoid the synoptic intervention, that is to say to repeat the same things which we have had, but I am going to ask a question which was asked by Mr Sanjay, Sanjay, do not know, Makanjee, when he was using the methodology which is used by lawyers, I am a lay person and a Minister. The question is, Mama Madikizela-Mandela, it is a very easy question, you may decide to answer it, you may not decide to answer it, it is a very easy question. Do you have any informed opinion, I did not say knowledge, I say any informed opinion as to why some people, including those who have been your close associates, have suddenly distanced themselves from you by making a litany of serious allegations against you, the first portion of the question, and how do you feel about this? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Thank you Dada. May I request that I answer that question at the end of this hearing? CHAIRPERSON I gather you are taking over now. Well, yes, I mean, as long as you will remember that she owes you an answer. Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, before I begin, I think I want to preface what I am going to say with just a comment that I think all of us here remember what you have done, we appreciate where you come from and for many of us you were, in fact, one of the heroines of the struggle, but I sat through eight days of evidence and I think today, for me, was particularly painful and that is because I have heard the evidence and, from it, I think, some of the lines I can actually draw from the evidence is that, through your own sense of social responsibility, you gave shelter to homeless and, of course, particularly displaced youth, a football club was formed and by your own version, you, in fact, disbanded the football club on the instructions of your then husband. The youths, however, continued to wear the uniform and, of course, basked in the aura of the Mandela name and the perception out there, therefore, in the community, was that the football club had not been disbanded. From your own evidence, they accompanied you wearing football uniforms, even to the funeral of Dr Asvat in 1989 and I have heard your explanation today that those were the best clothes that they owned. Some of the youngsters who have come to give evidence did not stay with you, but many of them frequented the property and I concede that even those who did not stay with you, that there may be, amongst them, those who have been convicted of criminal activity. Of course, we have amnesty applications for some of them, but when the Crisis Committee wrote the statement that they did and when they made their submission in paragraph 19 they say that they insisted on removing what they considered a bush around you, namely the Mandela United Football Club and I think that one can assume that the credibility of those persons, even then, was not questioned and they sought to inform you and warn you that you were surrounding yourself with persons of questionable character. In fact, you yourself, during these hearings, have labelled the people who were associated with you quite closely, you have said that their evidence was ludicrous and ridiculous, but the suggestion of the Committee, in their own words, was met with a negative, a firm negative response from both yourself and the club members and in terms of their own report, despite their communications, despite the communication of the MDM and Oliver Tambo, you, in fact, refused to disassociate yourself from the club, but in today's hearing you say, also, that you are surprised at the fact that the father of one of the victims, Mr Sono, has joined, and I think you ruthlessly called it the charade that is taking place. You call the report of the Crisis Committee exaggerated and distorted, you implied today that the MDM members who testified have an agenda, they had an agenda then and they have an agenda now and, in fact, in the Section 29 inquiry, you referred to their reports as Stratcom operations. Now, I have a difficulty with that and I really have tried to understand why are you seeking to discredit people who I think honestly tried to come and give evidence. I think for me that is a problem. The second question I want to put to you is that however you perceive the situation, these were youngsters who congregated around you. You, in fact, took them along with you to many functions. Do you not accept that you have to bear some kind of responsibility for their actions. They, in fact, regarded you as their leader, their head of household and my question is what did you, in fact, do to control them or to make them accountable, because if your evidence is to be believed today, then everybody else who testified at this hearing is lying and, I am sorry, I have a problem, because I would like to believe that part of what we are trying to do is to establish accountability. Now, you can say I am a non-South African, because that is what you said to me in the Section 29 hearing. CHAIRPERSON Order. Excuse me, excuse me, please, please we are not at a show, it is not a show, I wish it were. It is not a show and I am quite insistent, I give permission for clapping. Please, I do ask that we do not, because that influences all sorts of things. It can even be intimidatory and I do not want that. I do not want these hearings to be, to degenerate please. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I do not know if I will be able to do justice to the desiccation just delivered. I may not be able to contain everything you have said. Yes, it is true that most of the witnesses who testified here were lying. As far as I am concerned Richardson was lying. As far as I am concerned the two youths who claim that I gave them money to kill Dr Asvat were lying. As far as I am concerned Morgan's ludicrous statements made before you here are a pack of lies. I can go on and on and on. You are saying I am seeking to discredit people who were out to assist me. They testified here, they drew reports, sent them to Lusaka without my knowledge, sent people to Victor Verster without my knowledge and the reports that were sent to Victor Verster were of a nature which affected the family to this day. Reports which were based on untested information. You are saying people who wanted to assist me, are being discredited here. In that regard I should imagine you are referring to the MDM statement by Adzar Cachalia and Murphy Morobe, who made a recommendation here. Adzar Cachalia who made that recommendation in his very last sentence, delivering that kind of sensational statement before this forum, you had a problem with that when I regarded such people who issued such statements, during those times. You regard me as discrediting them. I am an ordinary human being, they did things to me which were not acceptable. It is not true that I totally refused to have the boys removed from my premises. I have led evidence here to the effect that even though suggestions were made, that the boys must be placed elsewhere, that did not actually happen. That process did not actually happen. It was not as if they came with accommodation arrangements, which I totally rejected. You are talking about those painful times, you are talking about a society which was abnormal at the time, and things happened to those of us who were in the front line in the struggle. Yes, I protected those children and continued doing so. I let them wear those uniforms, yes, with hindsight, I should have taken the uniforms. But my instinct of protecting the children during those times, when many South Africans were sitting comfortable in their houses whilst we fought a just struggle, it was during those times that these things happened. You have a problem because the things, the fabrications that have been made here, are regarded by me as lies. Yes, they are. Richardson could not be speaking the truth, you know that. Morgan couldn't possibly be speaking the truth. Those boys couldn't possibly be speaking the truth that I hired them to kill a close friend of mine. I regard it as very tragic that you have to this day those perceptions about why certain people, some of them who were close to me, distanced themselves in certain circumstances. I hope to deal with that question later on. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS SOOKA Mrs Mandela, I think there was a last part of my question which was the question of accountability and I am wondering if you would address that please. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I have stated here that I will respond to father Mgojo at the end of this, and that will include that. CHAIRPERSON Alex Boraine? DR BORAINE Thank you Chairperson. I wonder if I could put a very short statement to you. We have heard a great deal about the Mandela United Football Club, as you know for the last nine days. If I were to describe that having listened to all the evidence that this was a very good idea, that went very badly wrong, how would you respond? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is correct. DR BORAINE Thank you. Second is, and I am being as brief as I can because I know what is going to happen next to me here, the Chairman is going to rule me out of order, you mentioned that it was Ms Falati who went to the manse to fetch the youngsters, let's call them youngsters for a moment. Under whose authority would she have done that, I mean would she have taken it upon herself, surely she would have had to get permission seeing she was taking them to your property? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, she did bring them on her own authority as I have stated. DR BORAINE And once you realised that they were there, and that already there was some concern because they were staying in one place as refugees in the Methodist manse, were taken out, brought to your place, you discovered it when you came back, why didn't you take them back? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I think I have explained that on my return from Brandfort I was unwell, and she gave me a report to the effect that these youths were there and they would be there, I think if I recollect actually properly, until Father Paul Verryn returned from holiday. Something to that effect, but it was a question of placing them there whilst he was away. DR BORAINE Now, there was a lot of concern at the time and we won't go over all the very many people, the Crisis Committee and others who came and Dr Motlana, the Church leaders and so on expressing concern and you were here when we were putting questions to them and saying for example why didn't you ask to see the children, why didn't you examine the children or whatever. Wouldn't it have been easier if from the very first moment you said now listen, I can understand your concern, you say you care for these kids, come let you meet them and then if you have got accommodation for them, take them away. They seemed to be of the opinion that (a), they couldn't see them, and second that you were reluctant to let them go, is that true? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA No, that was a wrong impression Deputy Chairman. DR BORAINE Thank you. Now what has been said on many occasions and I have myself said, during these hearings that there have been lies and half lies and truths and half truths and extraordinary to try and sort out who is telling the truth and who is not and you please accept my word, that we are trying very hard to get to the truth. A number of allegations were made that people were actually assaulted, young people, on your property. Not in your house, but on your property, is that right? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I heard evidence here that for instance Zinzi is supposed to have inscribed ANC letters on some youngster's chest and of course in addition to that are the allegations of the three boys. DR BORAINE And some of those allegations are that you participated in that. Let's leave that for a moment, let me ask you. You are a very, I am not asking what you think, I am saying to you that I think you are a very powerful charismatic person, a leader. I really don't think that is in dispute, but these were allegations made by let's take Kenny, just one example, who escapes, the word used by your daughter allegedly, and has a lot of injuries. He is taken to a Doctor, that is confirmed and I think it was in the trial, it was stated. How was it possible for some of these things to take place when they were really in the back of your own house. I mean, if they took place, they would hear them scream, wouldn't you go and say what the hell is going on here, what is happening here, you know? That is what is confusing me, try and help me there. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA If you recall Deputy Chairman, I don't even remember Kgase properly, when I returned from Brandfort, I am not sure exactly when he escaped, so I didn't know Kgase. I know the two boys I subsequently saw later on. I was not there when this is supposed to have taken place on that particular day. About what is alleged to have taken place at my old house, where Zinzi is supposed to have whipped and I think someone also said I joined in that type of thing, that did not happen. It is a total fabrication. DR BORAINE Right, thank you. This is my last couple of very small points. First, and I don't want to refer back to former trials, but we have had to read everything we possibly could surrounding this hearing. Judge O'Dowson, you will recall is the Judge, he made a finding and he stated and I would really like you to comment on his statement, and I will read it to you: Mrs Mandela punched and slapped each one of them, referring to the four youngsters and called for a sjambok to be brought to her. Each of the four was beaten by Mrs Mandela. You must remember hearing that then, what do you say about that now against the background of so many of these allegations? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA In the Stompie trial? DR BORAINE That is right, yes. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA That is why the same Judge, Judge (indistinct) who delivered a very vicious judgement considered that it was true that I was not there. DR BORAINE Stompie has become almost a symbol in South Africa. You, Richardson says and many of them concur that he was beaten far more viciously than anyone else and the allegation was that it was because he was thought to be an informer, and we all know now that he died a very cruel death and you yourself have acknowledged your own sorrow about that. Again, how was it possible for this youngster to be so badly assaulted and then finally killed within your own property and then taken from your property according to Richardson, and killed without you knowing it? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Well, I have stated here sir, that I did not believe that Stompie was an informer in the first place and I do not believe that was the reason Richardson killed that boy. I believe the truth still has to be sought from Richardson why he would kill a 13 year old boy on the allegations that he was an informer. Supposing he was truly that informer, what information could a 13 year old gather of what security risk could that child have been to anyone? DR BORAINE The assault on Stompie took place in those back rooms? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA So I understand. DR BORAINE And he was there for a number of days and by a range of witnesses, he was looking very, very ill and badly assaulted, his head was swollen, his hands, he couldn't hold the cup and so on. Was this never brought to your attention that he was there in the back of your house, in that condition? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Not at all sir. DR BORAINE Okay, the final question, similar to Ms Sooka, the one overwhelming problem that I have about this hearing is that there seems to be either there is a conspiracy theory or even a conspiracy directed against you, by a wide range of people. Not only the youngsters that came here and Mr Morgan and the whole succession of people, Richardson, but also fairly significant people in the community. The Crisis Committee, the MDM, the church leaders, the ANC statement, all concerned about the behaviour and activities and criminal activities of the Club, whether they were playing soccer throughout or not. It doesn't seem to matter. How do you explain this overarching allegation, condemnation of yourself in relation to the Club and the feeling that you ought to have been able to stop it, how do you explain that? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA May I suggest that we deal with that aspect in the same context with the response to Rev Mgojo? DR BORAINE Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Dumisa? MR NTSEBEZA Thank you Chairman. I guess I should have a sense of what it should feel like to be falsely implicated in atrocities and then the consequently I use that as my point of departure to assess all the evidence to date. And I think Dr Boraine has painted what I would have put to you as the best case scenario. That your perception is that you are a victim of a huge plot by the government security forces because on their own evidence, they came here and they admitted having infiltrated informers into your household, that they organised a huge campaign to discredit you and your organisation and possibly your husband as he then was. But in the midst of all this (indistinct) web of deceit, treachery and betrayal you are possibly all by yourself, harassed by the State machinery and not having any benefit of political support from structures that were in existence at that time and you would like us to understand that to be the necessary backdrop against which all these things were happening, that if there is any error it was an error of judgement on your part in not having been able to realise the type of people who were around you, and that the tragedies that followed were consequence thereof. That is where I want to depart from because for me it is the best case scenario. Of course there is a worse case scenario and I think my colleagues have endeavoured to say the worse case scenario where we say why do all these people say all of these things, and you have indicated that you are going to address that in your reply to Dr Mgojo and therefore to all of us. I am just worried about one aspect and that is the death of Stompie. We have two versions. I want to tell you now that my impressions which are prima facie impressions are that when you look at the evidence of Katiza Cebekhulu, when it stands alone, it suffers from a number of deficiencies. I wouldn't go so far as to call it as lunatic statements, but then you hold that view. But just on the quality level, one is able to say it has certain deficiencies. He is the only witness who claims to have been an eyewitness to the stabbing of Stompie, as he puts it. There is of course the evidence of Jerry Richardson. There is then the Pathologist's evidence which seems to say his findings are inconsistent with the slaughtering of a sheep, which would then lead me where I have to conclude that there is a consistency between what Cebekhulu says and Morgan says and the suggestion by the Pathologist. Now that is an impression that I want to take into account. I also take into account Richardson's evidence. Now, I know that your lawyer will address, because sometimes this is a matter of law, but if you were as a person who has heard all of these things, were to endeavour to persuade me, what would you say in order that I should accept Richardson's account of how Stompie died and that I should reject what Cebekhulu says, what John Morgan says and the inference I can draw from the Pathologist's report? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I am not quite sure whether you want me to comment sir, about the nature of the death. I am sorry I am not sure of the exact question. MR NTSEBEZA Yes, I think what I would like you to say is to give me your own sense of if I said to you look, I want to believe you that you didn't do this, but I am confronted by these three aspects. I am confronted by Cebekhulu's evidence, by Morgan's evidence and by the Pathologist's evidence, what can you say to me in order that I should reject that evidence and accept the fact that you say you didn't do it and the fact that Richardson says he did it? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA I honestly would imagine that if Richardson confesses to that murder, I wouldn't understand why he would confess to that if he did not do it. I personally believe that he committed that heinous crime and I personally believe the circumstances which led to that child's death as told by Richardson, are true. MR NTSEBEZA One last question. In the Section 29 hearing, on page 68 thereof, you indicated that you established after the so-called Stompie affair, that the media had amongst its fraternity, reporters who were working for the system at the time. And you indicated that your subsequent information throughout the years had been that the first reporters who broke the so-called story, the Stompie affair, and you mentioned Thandi Makubule and Thamin Qwanash, that they had been part of the informers who were planted in the media. Now I wasn't here but I believe that you mentioned also Norma Venda in that context. I just want to confirm whether there was information that identified those persons, Thandi Makubule, Thamin Qwanash and Norma Venda, (indistinct), as informers who were planted in the media? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Yes, sir. I had no direct evidence. I had no access to STRATCOM information, that was just information at the time, in the same fashion they spread information about people like myself. MR NTSEBEZA Would it be that these media spies or media informers, are the people that in your view, Vic McPherson referred to when he testified here the other day, that he had in his list as manager of STRATCOM certain reporters who he called media contacts? MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Sir, I really wouldn't confirm that their names are on that list. I was merely giving information of the time, at the time. MR NTSEBEZA Thank you. Just for the record, to the extent that Vic McPherson sent a list to us which was listing the names of what he called media contacts, friendly journalists, I just want to place on the record that neither Thandi Makubule nor Thamin Qwanash, nor Norma Venda (indistinct) are part of that list. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Hlengiwe? MS MKHIZE Thank you Chairperson. I will, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I will repeat a question which I raised during the in camera Section 29 inquiries as to, it is an important question in the sense that when we evaluate the proceedings of these days, we are likely to go back to it. It is important for us to know as to why you didn't think of applying for amnesty having been actively involved politically and having worked mainly with young people, one of the questions which was put to you earlier on was around slogans like together hand in hand, with our boxes of matches, we will liberate this country, that even political utterances like that, could in one or another have influence on the behaviour of young people, so we are still interested in knowing your understanding of the amnesty process and your reluctance to make use of this in terms of giving us the perspective of what was happening at the time. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Thank you Madam. I explained at the time I think when you put that question across, comrade Thabo Mbeki raised the issue with me. And I explained to him ... (tape ends) ... MR VALLY Mr Chairman, as a last statement, we want to place it categorically on record, that when Mr Semenya's client was challenged on the two issues of accusing a witness of the Truth Commission of being an informer, she referred it to her lawyer, her lawyer has refused to respond to the matter, raising rules of ethics. I am not sure which rules of ethics applies to a straight forward withdrawal of a serious allegation. Secondly I want to place it on record that the slander against the Truth Commission that we paid money to a witness to give evidence here has not been in any way backed up by Mr Semenya or his client. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. I want to recall Mrs Sisulu on just one matter. Will you please come Mrs Sisulu. Mrs Sisulu, good afternoon. We are sorry that this has to happen, half sorry. ALBERTINA SISULU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sisulu in the course of your evidence, you were shown a card or a copy of a card, and you said here that the writing at the top of that card was not your handwriting. MS SISULU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON We have since had as you probably heard this morning, the counsel for the Asvat family confirming that they are satisfied that that was not your handwriting. MS SISULU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, in a documentary you were shown a card and said then that that was your handwriting, the same card. Now, clearly it must be that both can't be right what you said on the video, which is your version? What you said in the Commission is your version? MS SISULU What I said in the Commission is my version. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And what you said in the documentary was a mistake? MS SISULU That might have been a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Dumisa? MR NTSEBEZA Thank you Chairperson. Mama Sisulu, this is once again, a very happy moment for me. You and I know that we go back a long way. Rev Tetiwe, your late brother was a friend of my father and every time he went to Xala, he stayed with us. And whenever he came to Cape Town, I stayed with your brother. You therefore must realise how pained I was when I met what was to me a weakening in consistency. I am the first person to want to say publicly here, that you have vindicated yourself and that in my eyes, you remain not only the friend of my family, but the person that you have been, an icon of moral rectitude and all that we had been fighting for. I am pleased for you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. I am pleased and I don't mind if certain people in the audience would be willing to respond in the way that I have not allowed them to respond. Thank you Mama, you may stand down. MS SISULU Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I want to finish very quickly. This is the last in a sense of our victim survivor hearings and apart from the State Security Counsel hearings and the amnesty hearings, we will not be doing any more of this public work. I want to express a very warm thanks to this centre, I want to say a very big thank you to the media, thank you for giving us the coverage that we have had. We want to commend especially speaking of South African media, the TV Special Report and the radio team who have done splendidly. We thank the print media and we are glad for all the foreign journalists who have come so that the world can know of the process here. And we hope that they might actually want perhaps to make contributions to the President's Fund from which reparations will be made. Thank you to the members of the legal profession who have represented the witnesses. I want to say thank you to all the witnesses, to their families and to their relatives. We have already expressed our appreciation to them when they came here. Thank you to the caterers, thank you to the briefers, thank you to the translators, to the technical staff who have enabled all of this to happen. And I want to say a very big thank you to my colleagues, the Commissioners and Committee members, but especially also to the staff persons, Patrick (indistinct) and all of his staff, he has given me names, I won't run through those names here, but also a big thank you to Hanif Vally and the legal team, to our media people, John Allan and all of those people, you have done marvellously. Thank you to the police and all who have been responsible for the security. I just want to say that we have had a very close relationship with the Mandela's. We live in the same street in what is sometimes called Beverley Hills, our children went to the same school in Swaziland. They call me uncle and so on. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is godmother to one of our grandchildren, who was baptised on the Sunday of Madiba's release. When I bishop of Lesotho I used to visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela well maybe once or twice in Brandfort. I have immense admiration for her and there is no question at all that she was a tremendous stalwart of our struggle, an icon of liberation who was banned, harassed, under surveillance, banished, with her husband away serving a life sentence, she had to bring up two young girls. We can never forget her outstanding contribution to the struggle and her indomitable spirit. Everything was done to seek to break that spirit and she was an incredible inspiration to many and her contribution to the struggle can never be again said, she was the most apt representative for her husband. We struggled to establish a new, a different dispensation characterised by new morality, where integrity, truthfulness, (indistinct), accountability etc, were the order of the day. We say that crime currently, domestic violence, not caring for our environment, corruption, selfishness etc, which are prevalent are there because we need the antidote of a new moral order, a respect for authority etc. Some of us were devastated, it also found it exhilarating what happened during this hearing. Devastated by the performance of some eminent leaders of the struggle. The moral (indistinct) that came from them, was unexpected and shattering. There were splendid exceptions who stood out in stark contrast, Adzar Cachalia, Murphy Morobe, the two Methodist bishops, Sydney Mufamadi. And at the time I was deeply, deeply distressed after Mrs Sisulu's testimony and I can say that I am now in a sense over the moon over what has happened to rehabilitate someone I hold in the highest possible regard. There have been extraordinarily moving moments such as Bishop Verryn's (indistinct) to Mrs Seipei and then to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. We need to demonstrate that qualitatively this new dispensation is different, qualitatively morally, that we need to stand up to be counted for goodness, for truth, for compassion and not (indistinct) to the powerful. I acknowledge Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's role in the history of our struggle and yet one has to say that something went wrong, horribly, badly wrong. What, I don't know. None of us can ever be able to predict for you have to keep saying, there but for the grace of God, go I. Something wrong, such that many leaders had to be involved in seeking to deal with a particular problem. It was marvellous seeing Winnie as she walked hand in hand with her husband then, leaving the Victor Verster prison. It was wonderful seeing them walk together on the lawn of Bishop's Court on the day after his release. I was one of the church leaders who was asked to come and speak to you. I came all the way from Cape Town. I don't know that we will ever know all the details of what it is that went wrong. Many, many love you. Many, many say you should have been where you ought to be, the first lady of this country. What was I going to say to you had we had this meeting as a church leader, because when I came and we tried to have the meeting, it was impossible to have the meeting for you were not able to see us, you were studying you said at Wits. This is what I would have said to you, this is what I want to say to you. I speak to you as someone who loves you very deeply. Who loves your family very deeply. I would have said to you, let us have a public meeting. And at that public meeting for you to stand up and say there are things that went wrong, there are things that went wrong and I don't know why they went wrong. There are people out there who want to embrace you. I still embrace you because I love you and I love you very deeply. There are many out there who would have wanted to do so if you were able to bring yourself to say something went wrong. Because all these leaders couldn't have been so agitated and say I am sorry. I am sorry for my part in what went wrong and I believe we are incredible people. Many would have rushed out in their eagerness to forgive and to embrace you. I beg you, I beg you, I beg you please - I have not made any particular finding from what has happened here. I speak as someone who has lived in this community. You are a great person and you don't know how your greatness would be enhanced if you were to say sorry, things went wrong, forgive me. I beg you. MS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA Thank you very much and I would like to thank the panellist and I would like to thank you comrade Ntsebeza Sibya, I thank you all. Save to say thank you very much for your wonderful, wise words and that is the father I have always known in you. I am hoping it is still the same. I will take this opportunity to say to the family of Dr Asvat, how deeply sorry I am. To Stompie's mother, how deeply sorry I am. I have said so to her before a few years back, when the heat was very hot. I am saying it is true, things went horribly wrong. I fully agree with that and for that part of those painful years when things went horribly wrong and we were aware of the fact that there were factors that led to that, for that I am deeply sorry. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. We adjourn. COMMISSION ADJOURNS .