reparations REPARATION & REHABILITATION COMMITTEE TRANSCRIPTS 1997-05-10 Pietersburg 1 Mayor M.L. Mapoula; REV NYAMA; Mr Tjol Lategan; Mr M.C. Mahudu; Yvette Wilkens; Karen du Toit; DEAN FARISANI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56431&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/reparations/pietburg.htm WELCOME MAYOR M.L. MAPOULA REV S. L. MOOBI MAYOR MAPOULA INTRODUCTIONS REV NYAMA Thank you for the correction Mayor I thought maybe we need to speak the truth to show that we are in the true process that is why you started to correct it. Thank you very much for that correction. The other person that we have is also a Professor, Professor Janis Grobbelaar who is an Information Manager in the TRC. Now we have a person who is controlling this area, not Pietersburg, this area of the Truth Commission who is Hlengiwe Mkhize, the Chairperson of the TRC. Thank you. The other staff that we have is the beautiful lady down there by the name of Zena Richards who is the one who is issuing these mikes so you might have greeted her already. The other people that we have from the TRC is our people outside there at the table, those people who are helping you with information and also some leaflets. They are also staff of the TRC and I would like to say thank you to everybody who is here, the media and yourselves. We do have people who will be in the panel like Mr Lategan, the Mayor and then the rest. You will see them when they come up to the stage. I would also like to welcome people from the Council of Churches, South African Council of Churches and also the Northern Province Council of Churches for being with us in this TRC. We are now moving to the second item which is the purpose of the workshop and this be given by Mr T. Manthata. Thank you Mr Manthata. PURPOSE OF THE WORKSHOP MR MANTHATA The purpose of this exercise is by and large to make or to find out whether people understand what the new political dispensation is all about. The main thing with our new democracy as we commonly call it, is the awareness of human rights and to start a culture of observance and respect of human rights. To do this successfully we must find out from the people what the past years were like and what those years mean to them. We commonly call them years of conflict which is true because there was a conflict of human rights, respect and observance. People were fighting to have human rights restored to each one of us in this country, so the whole exercise of the TRC having been that we now come to the communities to find out what their experiences have been during this period of making statements to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, this period of having public hearings. We are saying this so that we can be better guided by you collectively and at the same time we can be better guided by the focus groups that exist within our communities. By the focus groups we refer to those groups that are functional and operative within our communities, for example we know that in rural areas of ours like this some of the key focus groups would be the Chiefs which we call traditional leaders. We would like to find out from the Chiefs what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said to them and what impact it has had on them. We even have some of the focus groups such as those that may be looked down upon with shame and fear and yet they exist within our ranks that is, the groups of the witch-doctor. Right through our hearings we had people referring to these people, which gave the TRC the impression that they exist within our communities. What then has the Truth and Reconciliation Commission meant to them? So it is with quite a number whether it be the youths, the women and by and large the business sector. We talk about the political organisations that is ANC, PAC, AZAPO, the Nationalist Party, the Freedom Front and all those kinds of groups. We speak about the Churches where, perhaps in our area here we have some of the strongest churches like the Zion Christian Church. What impact has the Truth and Reconciliation Commission had on them? What impact has the testimonies of each one of us had on them? Have these things touched them and if so, what kind of action are they demanding or requesting from the TRC in response? So, the main issue that were are involved in today is to hear, to get it from those people and we want to focus on those groups because these are almost like a water current within the communities who understand what the communities are like. Who, because they have certain duties to perform or to do within the communities, the impact that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has had on them will invariably mean they either change or they speed up. This is what this whole exercise is about, the impact that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has had on you, more especially on how you understand the violations of human rights. That is, you cannot just understand the human rights in isolation, you must understand the human rights insofar as they are either respected or they are violated. We want to learn from you people about these things and of course the thrust too does not only end up with the knowledge of the human rights whether violated or respected but at the same time, where they have been violated. We are gearing towards reconciliation so these focus groups should by and large be able to guide us in the process of reconciliation. A person who lives in isolation, not because he wants to but simply because he has too many things to do, will rely or depend by and large on those groups whenever he needs them. Let me go that far hoping that once we understand this we will be able to raise relevant questions, we will even be able to adjust the demands of the people insofar as we manage to pick them up as focus groups within our communities. We expect each one of you who represents the groups that they come from to please represent those groups properly, to give us their aspirations, the fears and the expectations of those groups in the light of what has been said and done by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in your communities. Thank you Mr Chairman. REV NYAMA REPARATION AND REHABILITATION POLICY DEVELOPMENT MISS MKHIZE Thank you very much Chair. I would like to greet all of you and I would just like to make a small correction. The Chairperson of our Commission is the Most Reverend Archbishop Desmond Tutu and I am the Chairperson of one of the Committees within the Commission. Our offices are open all over the country until midnight and staff members will be in these offices of the Truth Commission until about midnight so we are calling all people to come forward and assist. We have as a Committee seen in action that there is a value in coming forward and assisting those who are in the dark as to what happened to their loved ones. Through the work of this Amnesty Committee I will mention another example again in the area of Kwa Zulu Natal. One of the people who had applied and was granted amnesty for what he did in that area has gone back to try to talk to the community. He wanted to do something to make a contribution in that community and although that was a difficult process we see it as one of the important things that we are looking for in this country that communities which were divided, communities which were left hurting deeply over the years can begin to heal so as to be part of this reconstruction and democracy that my brother on my right, Tom was talking about. So that is the reason why, we have seen the benefits of this work and we really appeal to you, adding to what the Archbishop has been doing for the whole week, asking people to come forward. Since we started within the Commission of the Human Rights Violations, most of you have been part of it and we are beginning to see the fruits of the work of the Human Rights Violations Committee in the sense that we have realized that many young people also suffered a great deal in the past. We learnt from the statements which people made saying this is what happened to me, this is what happened to my son, this is what happened to my child and again it has taught us to even look at children and young people who were affected. Just having those special hearings is important in the sense that it will give us an opportunity to work with communities and work out what should be done for them to heal again and begin being part of communities. We have also learnt from your statements that women in some instances suffered as women. There were people who were tortured like people who were detained and told that your child has died and later told that your child is being buried, only to fund that they were just hurting you deeply and that your child has survived. Some women were raped and some women were tortured and insulted. All those things have taught us that in this process of the Commission we must look at Human Rights Violations which were done to women as women and the value of what people might not see now. At the end of it all we are expected to write a report which will assist the President of this country to make sure that these things are not part of our country again. The mandate of the Reparations and Rehabilitations Committee which we represent today is to really assist the Government as to thinking about what should be done for those people who have come forward and told their stories, who have shared their suffering following what they went through. The big question always is, what do you do for them where do you start giving ... of suffering in our community resulting from the political order of the time from 1960 to 1994? One of the things we have negotiated up until last week is that the Government assist by setting a desk which will look at people and see how they can be assisted, especially those with urgent needs. It is also difficult to think of what will be urgent, given the fact that if one has got needs, needs are needs. We have realized that there are people for instance who, even after the loss of their parents have managed to get education of some kind up to a certain point but for understandable reasons the family can no longer continue supporting that person so we are actually then negotiate with the Government to assist in those cases, to help people access their existing resources. You must have made a statement of course and you must have been found to be a victim within the Commission, then a letter will be written to you with an explanation of what to do. Local leaders of the Truth Commission will be kept informed of what is happening. Also of importance is to talk to communities as we are here today to look at what should be done to re-mobilise and re-motivate people to work towards the development of their community and for communities to re-think what can be done for different groups within this society so that people can begin to heal and begin to see themselves as citizens of this area and to benefit from democracy. Once we get a perspective from people we assist them and share ideas as to how they can negotiate with local leadership with resources to develop whatever programmes which will be ideal in assisting people. For instance in the question of young people, many young people who are involved might be left with no skills and then it becomes imperative for local developers to think of initiatives that can assist in that direction. In some instances young people are left having grown up in a culture of violence and having no alternative skills of dealing with conflict. Once that picture is clearer for the whole community it will then be easier for local leadership to think of ways to de-militarising young people. Those are just some of the examples that one can give. The same applies to women. It becomes important to look at them and say where did all this leave them? It might have left them with high levels of illiteracy, it might have left them with pain whereby one would need an empowerment group for women to help them to begin to close the past and look at ways of benefiting from whatever initiatives are being introduced in our society today. REV NYAMA FOCUS GROUP REPORT PROF. MEIRING We want to hear what the perceptions are in the community of the Truth Commission so that when we go home we would like to have a number of notes on what Pietersburg and the communities around Pietersburg think of the Truth Commission. That also answers the question about questions. First on our list is Mr Tjol Lategan who to most of you is quite well known. Mr Lategan is a local politician and we would very much like to hear what he says. Thank you very much for coming, please make yourself at home at the table and address us please. DISCUSSION/QUESTIONS MR LATEGAN I can go on by giving details of how I was even discriminated against but would like to refrain from doing so for the very reason of maintaining ties and to proceed with that task of reformers both in the Black and in the White communities. May I just pause here for a while by saying Sir that in the olden days I used to give just about all my time to the White community trying to reform them and their way of thinking and now all of a sudden I find myself in the Black community doing the very same thing again but for another purpose this time. Firstly we need to analyse and to realize that the democracy of this Province dictates that only a small number of White people eventually settled in the North. By and large they were the people who wanted to get as far away as possible from the British domination and that is why they went as far as this and some of them even went further. Some of them went into Africa and to Namibia because they wanted to get as far away as possible from British domination. The tragic events of several clashes between them and the indigenous people as well as the Anglo Boer War and their complete outnumbering had the result that the majority of the White population closed ranks and eventually became the bedrock of Right Wing politics in this region. I would want to say that in South Africa one also needs to understand that at the beginning of the century the Afrikaner more in particular, faced the very same plight as the Black people are facing today. The fact that landmines started to explode had a further hardening effect on the White community, hence it was the only region in South Africa where there was a no vote twice when we had to vote on reform. History is full of examples where a Government speeded up the process of reform too much and as a result of that losing power to conservatives. Let me remind you that the most recent example is what has happened in Israel a year or two ago when the new Right Wing Government of ... came into power and we know what is happening there now. Let me pause here by saying Sir, on Thursday I had to go to Messina to testify in a criminal court case and somebody had to accompany me that also had to give evidence in the same court case so we travelled together. Just to prove how easily one forgets that person travelling with me was the mastermind of the organisation of the AWB in Pietersburg when Pik Botha held his meeting in the Jack Botes Hall that was broken up by the AWB and which was world headlines. We were talking about those times but what struck me was what this gentleman, an ex-prominent member of the AWB said to me. He said that apartheid was a mistake which proves to me that in the extreme Right Wing there is change in their minds and also an admission that the principle of apartheid was wrong. The state of the Provincial Administration is a matter of great concern for all of us as non service delivery could cause conflict. Lack of experience and managerial skills is a threat that can upset the process, it could turn us into a third world country and it has an effect of inter-group relation. There comes a time when we must say goodbye to apartheid in our minds and although there are cultural differences between Black and White it should not deter us from breaking finally with the past and I say not enough is being done to overcome this. I want to call and make a specific call on our Churches, the White Churches or the so-called White Churches and many, many of the organisations to foster the idea of breaking the shackles that kept us apart in the past. There is no future for the Afrikaner in particular in this Province in the corner of the lonely. In my work as the soul member of the opposition in the Provincial Legislature I set myself a task of nation building and reconciliation and of course to strengthen and entrench those democratic values and principles that need to be in place to secure a better life and reconciliation for all. Sir we have a wonderful country and we have a beautiful Province, we have everything in our favour. We as the people of this Province must learn to work together. Let us purge our hearts of all the bitterness of differences of the past. A wound must be cleaned before it can be healed otherwise it will keep on festering. Let us cleanse our hearts and our minds and take hands and work together. It is in our hands whether we succeed or not. Let us build a common loyalty towards our country and towards our Province and may God Almighty help us all to heal the wounds of the past. In that process we must go forward on the continued road of reform for the better of all the people. Shall we all pray together Nkosi Sikelele i-Afrka. I thank you. PROF. MEIRING MR MANTHATA MR LATEGAN Can I do so Sir? MR MANTHATA Yes. MR LATEGAN PROF. MEIRING Any more questions? Miss Mkhize? MR MANTHATA MR LATEGAN PROF MEIRING Thank you, Professor Grobbelaar? PROF GROBBELAAR MR LATEGAN PROF GROBBELAAR MR LATEGAN PROF MEIRING MISS MKHIZE Just one thing from me really, what is it that you think can be done to assist many South Africans to move away from denial that something was wrong with the past? I would say, any one person who was in the country heard about numerous children who were killed in schools by security forces, heard about the killings of people in prison, heard about the long term imprisonment of people who were trying to what we you were saying you have been doing, reforming the country. They made public statements as to what they were struggling for, that they wanted all South Africans to live well. MR LATEGAN PROF MEIRING QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE (Beginning not audible) They wanted to know from you Mr Lategan, the lady really wanted to know from you what must be done Mr Lategan, in order that the community you are representing must change and reconcile with the people who are the so-called culprits of the apartheid system. As you are a representative what I could ...(not audible) call on the priests in the area, call on the teachers in the area because all those people according to the Government are the many people who are going to bring about the reconciliation of the community so that the community must be able to have friendship towards one another because the main obstacle is to destroy the animosity which was build up by the past. At the present moment what we are looking for is that people must learn to live together and share what is being in need by the Government. PROF MEIRING Can you answer the question Tjol please? MR LATEGAN PROF MEIRING With pleasure as it gets translated. MR LATEGAN PROF MEIRING Thank you so much for the question you asked, we really appreciate you being here. You may take your seat and then I would like to invite Mr Mahudu from Jane Furse to take his place. Mr Mahudu before you say your piece will you please introduce yourself to us? MR MAHUDU PROF MEIRING Thank you. Please proceed. You have a message for us, you want to open another window on the community to us. MR MAHUDU We happen to have taxi violence in our areas, gangsters or other forms of crime perpetuation by the very same system which of course in my view is still wanting to cling to the very same power which we were serving earlier on. They tried to infiltrate us in many ways but even if the situation happens to be like that I should think we as South Africans living in South Africa happen to be very lucky in a way because we happen to be the last country to be liberated. As such we have learnt lessons from other countries, countries like Argentina, Zimbabwe, Namibia as to the way they settled their matters and their political disputes. We even happened to learn from our ex-Robben Islanders who of course because of their compassion, the love of our country, their behavioural attitudes happened to compel us to reconcile, to forgive the most vicious Government a country in Africa has ever envisaged. This was because of their behaviour. One gentleman mentioned that they never even accepted the situation but we have to drive them to be an example to our own leaders. What our ... taught us we have to do. I support you in what you have said Mr Lategan. Last year we were assembling around the rugby stadium here ... (interrupted) PROF MEIRING MR MAHUDU PROF MEIRING Is that okay with you? Please finish what you are saying but just finish it off. MR MAHUDU PROF MEIRING MR MANTHATA MR MAHUDU PROF MEIRING Thank you very much, Miss Mkhize are these questions? MR MANTHATA MR MAHUDU PROF MEIRING Another question? PROF MEIRING Mrs Mkhize? MISS MKHIZE MR MAHUDU PROF MEIRING MISS WILKENS MISS DU TOIT PROF MEIRING Please go ahead. MISS DU TOIT MISS WILKENS MISS DU TOIT By this time President Mandela was already released from prison and things had started to happen. The old South Africa that I knew very little about was gone and the new South Africa which I knew even less about had begun so I started asking questions and for the first time in my life I realized that South Africa had so much more to offer. MISS WILKENS There are so many cultures, traditions and different people and so many new languages in this country of ours. I realized this was a country filled with people that knew nothing about each other except what colour each one was. MISS DU TOIT MISS WILKENS In England there were few African people and they had the same opportunities as I did so for me this new South Africa is something natural and something that only good can come from. MISS DU TOIT MISS WILKENS Not the dark future that has been painted by so many but the bright future that we as South Africans can make. Our country is very special and hopefully we can heal the wounds of the past and make South Africans grow stronger, happier and more peaceful, thank you. PROF MEIRING MISS MKHIZE Thank you very much for agreeing to come and appear before us at such short notice. If I may just ask you what do you think should be done, how should resources be shared in such a way that in this area we can have many young people like yourselves well dressed, in school, being able to go around being confident? MISS DU TOIT I think maybe community projects or something like that to raise funds to skill other people, charity drives at the schools who do have privileges as we do where we can raise money as the youth of South Africa to help our people to have the same education. MISS WILKENS I think what we basically have to do is work together, all the schools stand together and to make sure that a better education for a better future could be made for us. MISS MKHIZE MISS WILKENS MISS DU TOIT Capricorn High School is doing very well in integration, extra lessons are given to help the people integrating into our school but as far as we can see all the people who have integrated into our school are doing very, very well. Their marks are actually higher than ours in fact. I think because of the struggles of the past our people are adapting very easily. PROF MEIRING Miss Mkhize still has another question, then Professor Grobbelaar and then Tom. MISS MKHIZE MISS DU TOIT I think maybe some sort of facility that we as youth could start to help other youths whereby they could be put into special programmes to help them and maybe to teach them how to deal with what has happened, the unfairness of what has happened and to go on stronger into the future. PROF MEIRING Would you like to add? MISS WILKENS PROF MEIRING Professor Grobbelaar has a question. PROF GROBBELAAR I was listening to Mr Lategan before you came and he painted a very negative attitude about the potential of the White community in Pietersburg to change on a very short term. When I listen to you, you are presenting us with a very positive view of the future. How representative do you think you are of White youths in Pietersburg? MISS WILKENS PROF GROBBELAAR Can I just follow up and comment on your last point. Why should young Black people who are unemployed, who are traumatised by the past, who live with ghosts, why should they forget the past and build a future? MISS WILKENS MISS DU TOIT To deal with the past by looking at a good future for us. PROF MEIRING Mr Manthata? MR MANTHATA MISS DU TOIT PROF MEIRING The second question was a comment. Miss Mkhize? Then I have to ask one volunteer from the audience preferably a young person to ask a question but first Miss Mkhize. MISS MKHIZE MISS DU TOIT MISS MKHIZE MISS WILKENS PROF MEIRING MEMBER OF AUDIENCE (Not audible) PROF MEIRING MEMBER OF AUDIENCE (Not audible) PROF MEIRING REV NYAMA Thank you Piet. ... (interrupted) MISS DU TOIT REV NYAMA PROF MEIRING REV NYAMA PROF MEIRING We call it "the big boss". REV NYAMA Thank you. Over to you now. PROF MEIRING Hearing adjourns for lunch. PROF MEIRING DEAN FARISANI As people were talking here again and again they go back to the past but I thought my input for today should be more informed by what is the environment, what is the daily experience especially of the victims as we sit here today. Do those experiences tell them that the past is still with us or do those experiences tell them that we are definitely moving from the past at a healthy safe speed to the future that we envisage? PROF MEIRING DEAN FARISANI Am I being charged with malicious damage to microphones? Both of them are going to, what do you call this crisis unit in hospital? Is that okay now? PROF MEIRING Will you finish in about five minutes then we can start asking questions, thank you Sir. DEAN FARISANI Amongst ourselves we must be able to share the pain, confess those mistakes and to find programmes and structures together that begin to address that page but I think rather than those who are guilty of past misconduct rather than for them going into the loft and hiding. They should be breadwinners even if they are enemies, be bold enough to come forward and say the truth hurts but if you had kept quiet this country would die. There is also a challenge for those of us who are victims not only to have the capacity to tell about the pain but also the capacity to strike our arms of love and forgiveness and reconciliation. As I said the other day in Louis Trichardt if my hand is left there, hanging and dangling in the air the pain does develop out of that rejected hand of love and peace and reconciliation may be worse than the pains experienced previously. PROF MEIRING MR MANTHATA Dean, I will be repeating myself because the key thing that we are looking forward to hear is possibilities of reconciliation and pulling together in a manner that we can seen to be even sharing the blames amongst ourselves between Black and White in the Northern Province. How do you see this coming about? DEAN FARISANI PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. The last question to Miss Mkhize. MISS MKHIZE DEAN FARISANI PROF MEIRING SUMMARY AND WAY FORWARD PROF GROBBELAAR Brother Tom has asked what are you doing creatively to face the future and what initiatives are you taking and in that regard? One young man got up and said well we have invited White schools to come and play or historically White schools to come and play sports with us and we would like to invite them again. We have also heard about a community that is poverty-stricken and unemployed, a community that has been split off from the wider community because they happen to have been born Black in South Africa. We have heard proposals for schools to meet, we have heard pleas for time give people time, give the community who had access to all the power in this country for so long give them some more time they are hearing you. I have to ask you or we have to ask you today to participate for a while yet to help to tell us. Does it help to bring people together like this when you talk with one another and you hear one another? Is it important to do this? Does this begin to address the problems of understanding the problems the differences so that we can promote reconciliation in this country? When will the White and Black community in Pietersburg be able to meet and look one another in the eyes? Can I ask for some people on the floor to make comments in this regard, is there someone who would like to comment on the usefulness of this meeting and on the importance of bringing people together and what this could mean in the future? PROF MEIRING REV NYAMA Those who are going out please leave the mikes behind. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE My comment on behalf of the public is this, that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in future call on the press to let the public understand what is actually happening because the press is the mouthpiece of the public. A lot of people have no understanding of what is actually happening. We are being rehabilitated by it to come into a process which the Government is looking upon as a rehabilitation structure to the community of South Africa as a whole. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much for the contribution. Another hand another contribution please feel free we need your advice and your questions. Tjol Lategan? MR LATEGAN PROF MEIRING MEMBER OF AUDIENCE PROF MEIRING MISS MKHIZE PROF MEIRING MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE PROF MEIRING MEMBER OF AUDIENCE MISS MKHIZE We had many hands. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE MISS MKHIZE MEMBER OF AUDIENCE However if one has to deal with political activities it was the VIP and I was doing the organizing. Our people listened to me and it was discovered that the previous Government which was mixed with Whites did not want it and I was arrested several times and went from one prison to another and they made mention of a lot of things. They gave me difficult things and there was a lot of trouble with the food and they did as I explained before. MISS MKHIZE We will ask, seeing that there are so many hands, that people should really come to a point as to their intent. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE MEMBER OF AUDIENCE Let me go further. I just wanted to highlight that the TRC should really work with the Government they should also consider .... (interrupted) MISS MKHIZE MEMBER OF AUDIENCE MEMBER OF AUDIENCE DEAN FARISANI MISS MKHIZE MR MAHUDU MR MANTHATA MISS MKHIZE Thank you Tom. I take it that there are three people. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE MISS MKHIZE MEMBER OF AUDIENCE MISS MKHIZE MEMBER OF AUDIENCE Before I leave the stage let me ask if it is possible for the Truth Commission to request the Government to try to help us because there is nowhere where we can go other than just to stay there without these basic services as we have no person who is taking care of us. Maybe we will be able to survive with your help. Thank you. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE I have a problem which is faced by every young Black person and that is unemployment for the students who have just completed their studies who have higher qualifications than Whites. If you go to an interview with two other applicants one White and one Black, the Black is not given the opportunity to be employed. The Truth Commission should look into that issue. MISS MKHIZE Thank you very much. As a Commission I must say we have really been humbled by your patience. When we came here in the morning we also woke up at four thirty which is normal for us to get up at that time as we go all over the country although offices might be in big cities we work in areas like this almost on a daily basis. We have been humbled by your openness in sharing with us the difficulties which are still facing people in this Province in particular. It is sad to hear what we have heard that people are actually looking for people who have violated our rights saying that we are stretching our hands, we are looking for you, where are they. That is really difficult to explain to other people because normally people who have offended others struggle to get people to forgive them. The spirit which prevails in this area is humbling and we just hope that this is the beginning of an important process for meaningful dialog. CLOSURE REV NYAMA Hearing adjourns with the singing of Nkosi Sikelele.