--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: We'll now be proceeding with the application of Sizwe Reginald Makhuleni and Mbuyiseli Mjikwa, numbers AM0093/96 and AM1359/96 respectively. Would the lawyers please put themselves on record.

MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I'm Bumelo Nyoka, legal representative for both the applicants.

MR GQOMO: Thank you, Mr Chair, I'm Nsegaya Gquomo, I'm representing one of the victims, Lennox Yose. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the victim in respect of count one, is it?

MR GQOMO: That is correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Carry on, Mr Nyoka.

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, for the record, we handed in affidavits of both the applicants which were prepared by a TRC representative. I wish to place on record, Mr Chairperson, that I was instructed to act in this matter on Friday and I got the bundle on Monday, but both applicants confirmed the contents of the affidavits as being true and correct, where necessary as it is obvious they are going to supplement them by verbal evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, which is which?

MR NYOKA: There's the - in terms of the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we make Mr Mjikwa's ...(intervention)

MR NYOKA: No 1, he's going to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No (a),

MR NYOKA: Yes, he's going to testify first, Mr Mjikwa. CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Makhuleni (b)?

MR NYOKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you bear with us a moment, as you know, we were given these just before we came into the other hearing and we haven't had a chance.

MR NYOKA: I wish to hand in a summary of the counts as stated in the judgement for convenience. It's hand-written, but it's legible.

CHAIRPERSON: These are the counts that appear on page 18?

MR NYOKA: Yes, I've made even some notes which are not made, they were made earlier on in the court record, but I've made them in one page for convenience.

CHAIRPERSON: They are already set at page 18, the whole indictment is set out.

MR NYOKA: 18 and 82. 82 is the verdict. I've included both the counts and the verdict on one page, that's why I've made one page - the counts and the verdict for convenience, because there are many counts, it will only confuse people.

MR DE JAGER: Could we number it Exhibit C?

MR NYOKA: Yes, I've done that.

MR DE JAGER: Will they be giving evidence in Xhosa?

MR NYOKA: Both English and Xhosa. They've already spoken with the interpreters and made arrangements - English and Xhosa.

MR DE JAGER: Yes, would they like to be sworn in in English?

MR NYOKA: Yes, I was just waiting for the Chairperson to finish, he's still busy.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, carry on.

MR NYOKA: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one are you going to call first?

MR NYOKA: I'm going to call applicant no 2.

MBUYISELI MJIKWA: (sworn states):

EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mr Mjikwa, there's an affidavit that was prepared by a TRC representative, which you signed. You've had the opportunity of reading it. Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit, Exhibit A?

MR MJIKWA: That's right.

MR NYOKA: Did you sign - is that your signature on the last page - page 8 I think?

MR MJIKWA: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Alright. What was the aim for all the acts that are mentioned in the affidavit?

MR MJIKWA: It was to liberate the people and to fulfil the aims of the Organisation.

MR NYOKA: Can you categorise the aims, was it a moral, legal, political, emotional aim, what was it?

MR MJIKWA: It was a political aim.

MR NYOKA: With regard to Exhibit C now, Mr Chairperson - sorry, let's start with the bundle. The statement that is attributed to you on page 12 - 17, do you confirm its contents?

MR MJIKWA: Yes.

MR NYOKA: And also, you applied for indemnity on page 87 - 91. Do you confirm the contents of that application?

MR MJIKWA: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Did you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Page what are these?

MR NYOKA: 87 - 91, Application for indemnity, in the bundle.

MR NYOKA: Did you get any response to your application for indemnity?

MR MJIKWA: I got the first response from the TRC, but it was rejected by the TRC.

MR NYOKA: Let's go to the last formal document, informally made in handwriting, Exhibit C. You are applying for amnesty for various acts. I've made a summary of the counts that were laid against you in court. Count 1 relates to robbery on the 10th of March of 1990 of a firearm from the victim, Mr Lindile Lennox Yose, a Traffic Officer at the time, for which you were not convicted. You were found not guilty, but you are applying for amnesty for that, not so?

MR MJIKWA: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: Counts 2 to count 7 relate to the murders of the victims and the robbery of their firearms. Count 2 relates to the murder on the 14th of April 1990 of Constables Zithobile Ciliza and count 3 to the robbery of his firearm, for which you were found guilty. You are applying for amnesty for that, not so?

MR MJIKWA: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: Count 4 relates to the murder on the 17th of April 1990 of Constable Leon Joseph for which you were found guilty, not so?

MR MJIKWA: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: Count 5 - robbery of his firearm, for which you were found guilty, not so?

MR MJIKWA: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Count 6 relates to the murder on the 20th of April 1990 of Constable Daniel Andrews, for which you were found guilty. You are also applying for amnesty for that, not so?

MR MJIKWA: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Count 7, possession of 3 firearms without a licence, for which you were found guilty.

MR MJIKWA: That's correct, yes.

MR NYOKA: Count 8, like count 1 was possession of ammunition. You were not found guilty, but you are applying for amnesty?

MR MJIKWA: That's correct, yes.

MR NYOKA: Before it became - you were not found guilty for the robbery of firearms, which included violence on Mr Yose, a Traffic Officer, you were not found guilty. Can you tell the Committee why you are applying for amnesty despite the fact that you are not convicted?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on with this, can you show us where he's applying for amnesty.

MR NYOKA: It's on paragraph 7(1) of the affidavit. It is not in the form itself in the bundle, but it's in the affidavit, paragraph 7(1) to 7(2). Although the name of the Traffic Officer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but this is on the 23rd of May 1998, which is the cut-off date?

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, the paragraph reads - let me confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit is four years after the cut-off date isn't it? Sorry, for the application - when did the - it was last year, wasn't it.

MR NYOKA: Yes, 30 September, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: 1997?

MR NYOKA: 1997, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit is 1998, after the cut-off date for application for amnesty, isn't it?

MR NYOKA: Yes, it is, Mr Chairman.

MR NYOKA: He can't just come and say he's applying for things can he?

MR NYOKA: Maybe then we can add by saying, Mr Chairperson, for all other acts which are not mentioned in the application, he's applying for amnesty ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well how can he do that, he hasn't applied within the time? He had to apply for amnesty by a certain date, didn't he? He hasn't done so. There is no mention that I can see, unlike the other matters we have heard, where there is some mention in the application form, there is - in his application form he mentions two counts of murder, two attempted murder, possession of firearm and ammunition and escaping from custody.

MR NYOKA: I see that on page 13, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well would you like to consider the position for a few minutes?

MR NYOKA: Yes, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: And decide what we're going to proceed with. We will adjourn till you tell us you're ready.

MBUYISELI MJIKWA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, having considered the application in the light of the judgement or the two judgements, the judgements of the court a quo and the judgements of the Appellate Division, there appears to be some confusion as to what the applicant has been convicted of, and what he is seeking amnesty in respect of. In these circumstances it seems to us that the proper course would be to hear the evidence now without in any way indicating that we accept that he's entitled to proceed with all the applications. We will thereafter, when we are all going to be in Cape Town next week, seek to obtain the original files relating to his application to ascertain whether there's any further information available there, and if there is we will communicate with you and if necessary we can arrange to hear further argument or further evidence. It may not be necessary, but everybody is here at the moment, it would be proper I think to place his evidence on record without, as I want to make clear, we are not conceding that he is entitled to proceed with an application for amnesty on the basis set out in annexure C. It may be limited to the two murders forming counts 3 and 5, but - 3 and 4, sorry, 2 and 4, but that is a matter that will be ascertained later, but it will not affect the evidence in that the affidavit refers to certain attempted murders and can be led to give that evidence.

MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the Committee for its indulgence. I wish also to place on record that I was surprised as everybody else. Without further ado I call upon the applicant to make his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: One more fact which I think I can place on record at this stage, that the counts 2 and 3 and counts 4 and 5, that is the murder and robbery in each event, are in are view extremely interrelated in that the murder was committed on the evidence and on the findings to commit the robbery. So the two are really all part and parcel of one offence, and in those circumstances it may well be that we are prepared to hear argument from you that they should - the application in respect of the murder should extend to the robbery, having regard to these somewhat unusual circumstances.

EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA (continues): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The applicant would like first of all to read a statement that he prepared in prison himself, he won't be long.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to - is the statement legible?

MR NYOKA: Yes he has got a better handwriting than mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps we can get it copied after he has read it. He can now read now into the record.

MR NYOKA: Thank you, Chair.

MR MJIKWA:

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I disturb you for one moment, I'm afraid I left this a little bit late, is the other applicant - does the other applicant understand English?

MR NYOKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't have to be interpreted for him?

MR MJIKWA: Reads -

Thank you.

MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Mjikwa. Can you please now tell us about the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty?

MR MJIKWA: These are incidents that started in 1987 to 1990. The first one is the shooting of the two Policemen, municipal Policemen, that was in 1987. Also the shooting of Sudumo in Khayelitsha. I also tried to escape from prison to try to go to exile. I also shot three Policemen, I was involved in the shooting of the three Policemen in 1990 and also assaulting a Traffic Officer and taking his weapon. Those are the incidents I'm applying for amnesty.

MR NYOKA: Very briefly, without requiring a long story, can you tell us the circumstances of each incident so that everyone can understand.

MR MJIKWA: In 1987 where the two Policemen are concerned, I was with comrades that I was operating with at the time. Mzwabantu Finai was of them, Sabatekegezi, Dlodlo, but I've forgotten his surname, and the other one was Kulegele, as the people that were operating in Nobuhle. When I met them they were in a Kombi, they were on their way to summit. They said that Africans had arrested some comrades, that the Police were wearing civilian clothing. We then decided to look for these Policemen and not go on the operation that we were meant to initially. We went to an area called Angola, I've forgotten one of the streets that we went into. As there were six of us, two of our comrades were walking ahead of us. Sabatekegezi were behind and myself and another comrade were in the middle, we were walking in two's. I saw faces that were not familiar sitting on the ground. When we got close to them I asked them who they were - I greeted them and I asked them were as well. As I was talking to them I noticed that one of them was focusing on the two comrades that were walking behind me, Sabatekegezi and Mzwabantu Finai, we referred to Mzabantu as "Shorts". Where they passed me - or they walked past me, one of the men that was sitting on the grass started nudging the other. They then drew their firearms. I did not know that they were Policemen because they were wearing civilian clothing. I perceived them as either Policemen or comrades, but because they drew their weapons I shot at them, the two of them. After that we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: You perceived them as Policemen or comrades?

INTERPRETER: The witness said as either Policemen or comrades because they were unfamiliar.

MR NYOKA: The witness wanted to say Policemen or Ama-Africa or vigilantes, not comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he had made a mistake there.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.

MR MJIKWA: We then dispersed. Even though I don't remember the number of weeks that lapsed after the incident, the comrades said that there was a need to go and attack some people in Khayelitsha. As there were six of us Mzwabantu Finai was absent, therefor it was just five of us.

There's a shop, Mr Kulman's shop, in Uitenhage. He was perceived as a member of Ama-Africa. We then decided to go to a place where we were sure to get these people. I was pretty sure that at Mr Kulman's shop we were going to get these people, even though it was at night. I then said to my comrades that if they shoot somebody they must make sure that it's one of the vigilantes. If they were not sure they should not shoot. I then saw Sudumo, he was standing next to the door inside, he was talking to a lady. I shot him, we then dispersed and I was arrested after that.

MR DE JAGER: Is it possible perhaps to identify this incident with one of the charges set out in the indictment on page 18 or 19 roundabout?

MR NYOKA: No.

MR DE JAGER: Is it not possible?

MR NYOKA: In the light of what Judge Wilson said, I didn't want to categorise the events to the counts, lest we get into more confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand these do not relate to any of the counts in that indictment?

MR NYOKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: These first two attempted murders are completely different?

MR NYOKA: Yes. Proceed.

MR MJIKWA: I was arrested in 1987, even though I don't remember the date or the month. As I was in prison I had the deep desire to go into exile and join Umkhonto weSizwe. Those desires did not just disappear because I was in prison. I wanted to get out of jail, even though there was no lawful way of getting out at the time. I therefor tried means to get out so that I could skip the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I interrupt you again, had you been now convicted for these offences and sentenced to imprisonment?

MR MJIKWA: I was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment for having shot two Policemen, and then 10 years, but 5 years suspended. I can't remember whether that was 1988 or 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that for the other shooting, the shooting of Sabata, you got 10 years, 5 suspended?

MR MJIKWA: I was sentenced to 12 years, having shot two Policemen, the Policemen that wanted to shoot Sabata.

MR NYOKA: Are you referring to municipal Policeman, please be specific?

MR MJIKWA: Municipal Policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: It's my mistake, it's Sudumo, I got - it wasn't Sabata you shot, you shot Sudumo, is that the person you got 10 years, 5 suspended?

MR MJIKWA: Correct, sir. I then got an opportunity to escape from jail. After I had escaped from Prison I met with certain comrades. The comrades then tried to make means so that I could skip the country. I met with comrade Sokelela and comrade Fikele Gobese. They tried to get shelter for me as the Police were looking for me, so that I could hide. Comrade Sokelela took me to Motherwell, Ndlovu Street, but I do not remember the number of the house. I was with a comrade that I had been operating with in 1987, we referred to him as Mercantile. Whilst I stayed in Motherwell, or was hiding in Motherwell, a red Golf arrived with comrade Sokelela, comrade Masabolela was driving. The drove me to Mtanzania even though I did not know where they were taking me. I - they took me to NU 11, Unit 11. Comrade Sokelela's elder brother was staying there. From there I was taken to Unit 10, I think the number of the house was 345 if I'm not mistaken. I was given a pseudo-name, Undile Williams. Mercantile was to call himself Simpiwe. I got a passport. I was waiting so that I could be taken across the border when the time came, but sometimes things don't go as quick as you expect them to, so it took a bit of time. We started panicking, especially comrade Mercantile. Comrade Mercantile was the one who was panicking the most, he had never been harassed before, but he was always walking with me from 1987. Because he was panicking he decided to go back to Uitenhage. That worried me because I thought he'd get arrested and then he would divulge all. I told the comrades about all my concerns when they would come to Mtanzania. After a while comrade Mercantile came with comrades Piwa Nojogo. I asked them what they had come to do, they said that they were just visiting. That concerned me all the more because I did not want them to know where I was. They went back to Uitenhage as they were just visiting. I asked the comrades at Mtanzania to find another place for me because there the comrades had seen me. I would go and stay at NU 15 and also other places that I don't remember at the moment. One night some comrades came and amongst them I recognised MEC Smuts Ngonyama. He was responsible for taking me across the border. I was glad. But after two weeks I read in the paper that Smuts Ngonyama had been arrested. That worried because he was going to go into detention and a lot of time could elapse while being in jail. I thought that I could not sit there and wait for comrade Ngonyama to get out of jail because I was not sure of my own safety because of the comrades that had visited earlier.

I requested Comrade Sokelela's brother and comrade Tloye to give me money to go home because I did not trust that I was safe where I was. They took me home, but they took me as far as Bisho where I took a taxi to go home.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not proceed to skip the country, why did you go back home to Uitenhage?

MR MJIKWA: Because the man that was meant to help me to skip the country had been arrested. I did not know when he was going to be released from jail. He could be detained for three months, six months or even more. I was also concerned about my safety because there were people that had seen me that I did not trust.

MR NYOKA: What was the purpose for escaping from prison?

MR MJIKWA: As I have already said, I wanted to skip the country. I was arrested before I could fulfil that. The reason why I escaped from jail was to skip the country because I needed to survive.

MR NYOKA: Briefly can you go to another incident, Mr Mjikwa.

MR MJIKWA: In 1991 I got to Uitenhage, there were peace talks between the comrades and the Ama-Africa vigilante group.

MR NYOKA: For the record can you define who Ama-Africa were, what did it mean to be an Ama-African?

MR MJIKWA: They are the people that chased us in January, and we ran to Soweto. They were being used by the Police to kill the comrades. There was conflict between the UDF and Ama-Africa, therefor the leaders were trying to gain peace.

MR NYOKA: So, Mr Chairperson, excuse me, applicant no 2, Mr Makhuleni would like to go to the loo shortly. Can we have a one minute adjournment, if I'm being optimistic at all - I'm being optimistic.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll have a short adjournment.

MR MJIKWA: (s.u.o.)

MR NYOKA: Mr Mjikwa, you were still relating the events in which you were involved. We already have your affidavit, Exhibit A in front of us. I'm going to ask you to briefly relate each incident, those that are still outstanding, but do it very, very briefly. Thank you.

MR MJIKWA: Thank you. In 1990 I received information from Sizwe Makhuleni as to where one gets the Police, the municipal Police, where they usually relax and sit and drink. We went to that tavern, I don't remember the name of the street. I asked Sizwe to go in to see if they were there, and if they were there how many there were. I was waiting outside. I asked Sizwe to go in because he was not harassed by the Police, he had never been harassed by the Police, therefor he did not have a problem going into a place where there were Police.

MR NYOKA: Sizwe, you are referring to your co-applicant?

MR MJIKWA: Correct. He said that there was a municipal Police inside there that he knew. He escorted the Policeman outside the tavern. I don't know whether he was going home, but he was going towards the gate. As it was a tavern there were people going in and out. I said to him that if there was a Policeman he would walk directly behind the Police guy, then I would know that the man walking just ahead of him is the Policeman. I pushed the gate open, saw that the Policeman decreases his pace. I then took out my gun. Sizwe took the gun that I had and he gave me the one that he had taken from the Policeman as he had disarmed him. He then shot him at the back. I realised that the Policeman had not fallen down, I asked him to throw the gun at me. He did and then I decided to shoot again, and he fell next to the door.

MR NYOKA: I will ask you to look at Exhibit C. Which incident is that now? That is count 2, that is the murder of Constable Zithobile Ciliza, is that correct?

MR MJIKWA: Correct.

MR NYOKA: And you took the firearm off him?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, we took his firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand correctly, that first of all Sizwe shot him and then Sizwe gave you the gun and you shot him?

MR MJIKWA: That is correct. After a while Zole and Sizwe came - Sizwe arrived with Zolegeli, he was coming to report that there was a truck that had entered the Township with Policemen and this truck drove through the area in which Sizwe resided. We went to the truck, there were two trucks with Police, far from each other. These trucks looked like rubbish trucks. I said to them we should wait for the one so that they drive off because the one truck - the people in the first truck would see us if we were shooting at the one. That happened as I had asked, the one truck was being driven off with one Policeman. We went to the other truck. I was carrying the firearm that we had taken from the Traffic Cop - or I had taken from the Traffic Cop. Sizwe was carrying the firearm that we had taken from the Policeman that we had shot at the Tavern. I then took the driver out of the driver's seat so that he doesn't get shot whilst I was shooting at the Policemen. After we had taken the driver out of the truck Sizwe shot the Policemen, the municipal Policeman in the head. Zolegeli took the pumpgun from the Policeman. As we were trying to run away I took the pumpgun from Zolegeli to throw it away. Zolegeli is deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the gun from Zolegeli to throw it away?

MR MJIKWA: I took the gun from Zolegeli.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say to throw it away?

MR MJIKWA: Correct.

MR NYOKA: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, can I just have a minute with the applicant. The applicant seems to be speaking Zulu so I want to plead with him to speak Xhosa because there's going to be a problem with the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter understands the speaker, it's just that he's not speaking loud enough. Thank you.

MR MJIKWA: We then dispersed after the incident. Zole then came with information that there was a place in the Township where Policemen go frequently. He says he knew the place because he had been beaten by Police there.

MR DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) what his name was, or did he hear his name later on?

MR MJIKWA: I didn't understand you earlier on.

MR DE JAGER: The person whom they shot at and took the gun from, can he identify that person, did he hear his name later on?

MR MJIKWA: I heard his name in court, but I can't remember the name now. I don't even know where he stayed.

MR DE JAGER: The incident took place where, in Uitenhage, is that correct?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, KwaNobuhle in Uitenhage.

MR DE JAGER: Could it be count no 3 perhaps - count no 4 perhaps, sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Count 3 surely, the Policeman who was in a "munisipale voertuig".

MR DE JAGER: Yes but count 3 is about the robbery. The "haelgeweer" there was count 5, so it seems as though it's count 4 and 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Count 4 is the gate guard at the Police Station, isn't he?

MR DE JAGER: Yes, but there we've got this pumpgun,

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, I'm looking at the wrong - sorry, I'm looking at the wrong page.

MR DE JAGER: Can you perhaps remember whether the name was Joseph, Leon Joseph?

CHAIRPERSON: If you look on page 22 it shows that Leon Joseph was the chap that was in the truck.

MR NYOKA: If I can intervene ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Page 22 is the page I was looking at, it wasn't count 3, it's paragraph 3 there which says that Leon Joseph was on duty in a municipal vehicle. So that would be counts 4 and 5.

MR MJIKWA: I can't really confirm the name because I'm not sure, but it was a Coloured chap.

MR DE JAGER: Yes, okay, proceed.

MR MJIKWA: I got information from the late Zolegeli that there was a Police Station with Policemen in the Township. He said he knew the Police Station because he'd been tortured there by the Police. I asked him if we would be able to survive when we try to run away. He said yes, we would. The Police Station was not in the centre of town, it's just that it would be difficult to escape after the attack. We then went to a house where Sizwe's relatives lived. That's where we spent the night. The next day in the evening or late afternoon we went to that Police Station. We got through the houses that were closed to the Police Station. There were people that were drinking there. We pretended as if we'd gone there to relax and drink as well. We found out that there was a municipal Policeman that was standing by the gate. He was chatting to a friend of his. We did not know whether that friend was a Policeman or not, however he was not wearing uniform. I said to Sizwe we must wait for this person, or the Policeman to finish talking to the other man because we would put his friend in danger if we were to shoot him whilst he was talking to this man. To avoid that we had to wait for the discussion to finish. Our intentions were to go inside the Police Station. We waited for a long while, this man was not going away, he continued chatting to the Policeman. Sizwe then suggested we should go to a place - there was a show going on, and perhaps after the show the man would have left. Truly we started walking and as we were walking past this Policeman, this Policeman said we must put our hands in the air. Sizwe was carrying a bag, he was wearing a jacket as well, therefor this Policeman was suspicious. Truly this Policeman came and pointed a pumpgun at us. He was pointing directly at Sizwe. We lifted our hands in the air. I realised that he was focusing on Sizwe because he wanted to know what was in the bag that Sizwe was carrying. I lifted my arms in such a way that he does not see that I was - on my right side I was taking out a gun. What I did was, I shot him - I put my one hand under my armpit and I shot him through my jacket. I'm not quite sure how many bullets I fired, but it was more than two shots. There was a white Policeman by the gate who looked like he was coming towards me as we had our hands in the air. I shot at this white Policeman because I thought it would be our last chance to escape. We then ran away.

MR NYOKA: Did the white Policeman die as a result of your shooting at him?

MR MJIKWA: I was not shooting at the white Policeman, I was shooting at the Policeman that was pointing a gun at us and made us lift our hands in the air. The white Policeman ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said a moment ago, the white Policeman at the gate was coming towards us and I shot at him, and we ran away.

MR MJIKWA: No, the white Policeman - I was standing in such a way that I was facing towards the gate. The white Policeman looks like he was coming towards us. He was at the gate. I don't know whether he was opening the gate, or what he was doing. So what I did, I shot at the Policeman that was pointing a gun at us.

MR NYOKA: So you did not shoot the white Policeman that was approaching you?

MR MJIKWA: No, we did not. He ran away after he heard the noise. He went inside where he was emanating from.

MR NYOKA: Can you now come quickly to the incident of the 20th of April 1990 if you can recall, where Constable Daniel Andrews was shot and killed.

MR MJIKWA: Please repeat your question.

MR NYOKA: Can you now come to the incident of the 20th of April 1990, where Constable Daniel Andrews was shot and killed, if you recall that name.

MR MJIKWA: That Policeman that we attacked, I thought it was a black Policeman that we attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: That was besides the point.

MR POTGIETER: Mr Mjikwa, was this in Langa where this incident happened, where the Policeman was shot that you spoke about now?

MR MJIKWA: Correct.

MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Potgieter. Can you proceed now to the last incident of the Traffic Officer.

MR MJIKWA: I was with Zolegeli at the time. We saw a Traffic Cop that had stopped a car. He was alone. I had a firearm at the time. We went to the Traffic Cop to disarm him. He resisted, I shot him with the gun that I had, in the head.

MR NYOKA: Can you please explain in pure Xhosa what you are saying because there are other interpretations that are being made now. Pure, pure Xhosa, not Zulu.

MR MJIKWA: I stayed in Pretoria amongst many cultures and different languages that affected me. This is why I speak this pigeon, because the people that I lived with did not speak Xhosa, this is why I speak such a pigeon.

MR NYOKA: Just try to remember your mother tongue on that aspect because it's to your disadvantage what you said now. Try and remember in Xhosa what you just said, how you assaulted the Traffic Officer, or how you dealt with him.

MR MJIKWA: I hit him with a gun that I had been carrying, in the head.

MR NYOKA: So you hit him, not shot him? You hit him?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, I hit him.

MR DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

MR NYOKA: That's always the case with Pretoria, Mr Chairperson.

MR MJIKWA: He handed over. I heard someone saying to the Traffic - advising - I just heard a voice, trying to advise the Traffic Cop not to go after us because he was going to be in great danger. That is it as far as the Traffic Cop is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you steal his gun?

MR MJIKWA: I grabbed it from him.

MR NYOKA: Is that all that you want to say as far as incidents are concerned, no other ...(intervention)

MR MJIKWA: Correct.

MR NYOKA: Just briefly, which organisation did you become involved in before, that is 1987 to 1990?

MR MJIKWA: Uitenhage Youth Congress. It was affiliated to UDF.

MR NYOKA: And when you disarmed or robbed the victims, did you take anything else except the arms, the firearms?

MR MJIKWA: We would not take anything else unless we'd find extra bullets and then we would take the bullets as well.

MR NYOKA: What was the aim for disarming or robbing them or their firearms and ammunition?

MR MJIKWA: We wanted to protect ourselves against our enemy.

MR NYOKA: And did you acquire the ammunition separately from the firearms which you took, or was it included in the firearms?

MR MJIKWA: We'd find the bullets in the firearms when we take the firearms.

MR NYOKA: Why - can you tell me why the Traffic Officer, why did you have rob the Traffic Officer?

MR MJIKWA: We identified or we perceived the Traffic Officer as supporting or being part of the structures of the Government.

MR NYOKA: And Mr Yose is here today, sitting amongst the audience. What can you say to him about that incident? Briefly, no long speech.

MR MJIKWA: I'm sorry that we had to use force with him to get the firearm. I did not know him personally, but because of his job he became our target. It was not a personal thing, but it was because of his job and his position in the structures thereof.

MR NYOKA: Does that sentiment also apply to the families of the dead Policemen, present or absent in the hall?

MR MJIKWA: Correct.

MR NYOKA: Finally, did you do the things, perpetrate the deeds for personal gain?

MR MJIKWA: I did not want to gain anything personally, I just wanted to arms so that we could protect ourselves and fulfil out goals.

MR NYOKA: Did you have any animosity or hatred against the persons who were victims like those that were murdered or robbed? Did you have anything against them?

MR MJIKWA: No, because I did not know these people personally, but because of their jobs, that caused them to be targets.

MR NYOKA: Finally, when you committed the murders that you committed, did you take the murder and the robbery as separate incidents, or as one incident?

MR MJIKWA: I perceived it as one and the same thing.

MR NYOKA: And did you convey that to you previous attorney as such when you made a statement to him?

MR MJIKWA: I told Mr Ngonunu this, but because he's human and fallible, he can make mistakes here and there.

MR NYOKA: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR GQOMA: No questions, Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Mr Mjikwa, in your opening statement you said that during those times, 1986, you were radicalised by the organisations that were there. Which organisations did you refer to?

MR MJIKWA: Organisations like the UDF or UYUKO.

MR MAPOMA: Where you a member of UYUKO at the time?

MR MJIKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You went further to say that you got enemies as a result of you being a member of those organisations. What were those enemies - who were those enemies?

MR MJIKWA: The people that were supporting the Government, that was the enemy of the organisations of which I was a member.

MR MAPOMA: Whom do you refer to specifically?

MR MJIKWA: I'm talking about the Police, they were defending the Government of the day. All the agents that the Government used, those are the people that I was talking about. Ama-Africa at that time, Witdoeke, and others.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the last one, sorry?

MR DE JAGER: Witdoeke

CHAIRPERSON: Witdoeke.

MR MAPOMA: Now, this comrade Sokelela and Fikele Gobese, were they members of any political organisation?

MR MJIKWA: They were our leaders, we regarded them as our leaders.

MR MAPOMA: Are they the people who were organising that you skip the country?

MR MJIKWA: Comrade Fikele was the one who tried to organise a place for me to hide, as I was being harassed. Comrade-Major is comrade Sokelela, he took me to Mtanzania. Comrade Gobese was not there then. I don't know whether comrade Gobese knew that comrade Sokelela would take me Mtanzania.

MR MAPOMA: Now let us come to the attack of these Policemen, all these incidents. Do you know of any policy which was - from the UDF that these Policemen must be killed?

MR MJIKWA: UDF was a non-violent organisation, but because of the actions of the Government that was using the Police in our Townships, we as the youth had to take steps to protect ourselves against the Police that were killing us. Informers and Police were not wanted in the community. Even though there was no leader perhaps, according to my knowledge, that said or gave an order for Police to be killed, we used our discretion to fulfil the goals of the organisation.

MR MAPOMA: Now I take it that when you attacked these Policemen, your objective was to disarm them and get the weapons, and not to kill them?

MR MJIKWA: There's one thing that should be clear, in the struggle for liberation - the Police and anybody who supported the Government or worked with the Government, the same Government that was being fought by the liberation structures, they became targets, our targets. The Police then had to be killed by the Freedom Fighters because if you were attacking the Government of the day you had to attack the Police first or its soldiers, or anybody, any agent that was protecting the Government that I was fighting against.

MR MAPOMA: Your objective was to get weapons, did you want to get those weapons yourselves, that is yourself and your friend, Makhuleni and Ngelo?

MR MJIKWA: No, we wanted to protect ourselves and the people in our community as the situation in Uitenhage was very similar to the situation in KwaZulu Natal or Port Elizabeth where Azapo was rife, and other places. Moreover, even if there was no black on black violence, that did not mean that the Police were not legitimate targets, because there was no black on black violence.

MR DE JAGER: What did you do with all the weapons?

MR MJIKWA: I was arrested with the firearm I had taken from the Traffic Officer, also Makhulene was arrested with the firearm that we had taken from the municipal Police that we'd attacked. Zolegeli had the other firearm, he knows what he did with it.

MR DE JAGER: What did you do with all the weapons that you robbed?

MR MJIKWA: I was arrested in 1987, I was arrested with a firearm.

MR DE JAGER: No, I understand, but you didn't hand the weapons over to your Organisation?

MR MJIKWA: There was no need because the Organisation had not asked us to go and get firearms, we'd used our own discretion to fight the Government. We had been enlightened and educated in such a way that when the Government oppressed the people, after we were enlightened in such a way, we realised that there was a need to fight against this Government.

MR DE JAGER: I understand, so you were not acting on instructions of your Organisation, they didn't tell you, go and disarm the Police and get the weapons. You acted under your own discretion?

MR MJIKWA: Sir, at the time we were not members of MK as such, we would have to wait for a commander to give us an order. We used our own discretion.

INTERPRETER: The applicant had said that he was caught with firearms, not a firearm, earlier on.

MR MAPOMA: Now during 1990 which Organisation did you belong to?

MR MJIKWA: I did not join any new organisation in 1990, I was still a member of the Uitenhage Youth Congress, even though the ANC was unbanned at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I'm asking that question because the UDF had disbanded and the ANC was taking over, and there was an ANC Youth League for the Uitenhage Youth Congress.

MR MJIKWA: That is correct, there was an ANC Youth League in 1990, but the ANC was unbanned. It would have been difficult for all of us as the Uitenhage Youth Congress at the same time to go and join the ANC. I was still being harassed at the time, it would have taken time, I would have probably joined the ANC after some time. If there was enough time for me to join the ANC Youth League I would have done that.

MR MAPOMA: Let's come to the incident of the robbery of the Traffic Officer. Which one took place first, the 28th and the incidence where you robbed the Policeman?

MR MJIKWA: The first incident concerns the Traffic Cop.

MR MAPOMA: And during that incident you had the weapon already?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, I did.

MR MAPOMA: Where did you get that weapon?

MR MJIKWA: I got it from Cradock, I was with some comrades, comrade Harare if I'm not mistaken, was present. Yes, he was there, but I don't remember the others, I think there were four of us when we went to fetch the firearm. Even then I was expecting to get more firearms, but unfortunately I couldn't get more, so the comrade said that he would give me a firearm, we should go to Grahamstown. That is how I got that firearm, that's how I know that comrade.

In 1985 I was arrested for having burned a car or set a car alight. I met this comrade at the St Albans Prison.

MR MAPOMA: Have you applied for amnesty for possession of that firearm?

MR MJIKWA: I don't know what eventually came of that firearm because Zolegeli had it.

MR MAPOMA: When you were charged, did you not have that firearm in your possession?

MR MJIKWA: I don't understand your question, please repeat it.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, when you were arrested by the Police and charged, were you charged for possession of that particular firearm, the one that you already had before you attacked the Traffic Officer?

MR MJIKWA: No, I was never charged with possession of that firearm.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Just one question, Mr Chairperson. You were asked by the Evidence Leader - sorry, you were the question that to the effect that you were not acting under the instructions of any Organisation. Is it your evidence that though that may have been the case, you were acting to pursue your objectives of rendering the Townships in particular, and South Africa governable, is that so?

MR MJIKWA: Correct.

MR NYOKA: No further questions.

MR POTGIETER: Mr Mjikwa, you said that Mr Gobese and Mr Sokelela, they were your leaders, some of your leaders at this time that you told us about.

MR MJIKWA: Yes, comrade Gobese and comrade Sokelela, we perceived them as our leaders.

MR POTGIETER: In which structures were they involved?

MR MJIKWA: Under the UDF.

MR POTGIETER: And if I understand your evidence correctly they had rendered you assistance after you were involved in all these things, they were helping you to go into hiding and so on?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR POTGIETER: Were you ever reprimanded by any of the Organisations that were operative in Uitenhage at the time for anything that you had done, or any of these incidents that you spoke to us about?

MR MJIKWA: No.

MR POTGIETER: The Uitenhage Youth Congress, were they also pursuing a policy to fight the system and the Government at the time?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, clearly.

MR POTGIETER: Then just one other thing, your application form for amnesty is not as explicit as it could be and we have to deal with that and we have to decide how to approach your application. Was it your intention when you completed the application when you applied for amnesty, to ask for amnesty in respect of all of these things that you spoke to us about, or what was your intention?

MR MJIKWA: First of all, I did not complete this form, but my intention was to apply for amnesty for everything that I've spoken of here today.

MR POTGIETER: Your form - or the application form seems to be in respect of incidents between 1987 and 1990, would that be correct, was that the period involved that you wanted to ask amnesty for, for incidents during that particular period?

MR MJIKWA: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: And are you asking us to regard your application form as covering everything that you have spoken to us today?

MR MJIKWA: Could you please repeat the question, sir.

MR POTGIETER: Do you want - I've explained to you before, I started on this line that your form is not very explicit, it could be much more explicit, and what I'm asking you is, do you request us to regard this form as covering all of the incidents that you spoke to us about today?

MR MJIKWA: Yes, sir.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: One matter I want you to clear up for me please. Who got you your passport?

MR MJIKWA: Comrade Sokelela has the information because he brought the passport. But when I went to take the photographs for the passport I was with his brother, comrade Tlawene Sokelela from Tanzania.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say what organisation helped you to get it, was it the UDF or the ANC, or who?

MR MJIKWA: The people that helped me get the passport were comrade Sokelela, who I perceived as my leader.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know how he got it?

MR MJIKWA: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll mark the opening statement, copies of which are now being supplied to all of us, as "D". We will now adjourn till 14h00.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, there's one point which I'd like to clarify with the first applicant. Mr Mjikwa, you said you wanted to go into the Police Station at Langa, do you remember that?

MR MJIKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that was to steal guns there?

MR MJIKWA: No, we had not gone there to steal a car.

CHAIRPERSON: No, a gun I said. What were you going into the Police Station - why did you want to go into the Police Station?

MR MJIKWA: We wanted to destroy the Police Station, that's why we wanted to go inside.

CHAIRPERSON: It's, I gather, a satellite Police Station.

MR MJIKWA: Are you asking me whether it was a satellite Police Station or asking me if we had gone there to set it alight?

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I asked you if it was a satellite Police Station, satellite - small one.

MR MJIKWA: I beg you pardon, it was a small Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Carry on.

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, I call the last - sorry, the second applicant, Mr Sizwe Makhuleni.

SIZWE MAKHULENI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mr Makhuleni, are you - were you a member of any organisation at the time in question?

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

MR NYOKA: Which one was it?

MR MAKHULENI: I was a full member of COSAS and a Chairperson of ...(indistinct)

MR NYOKA: According to the bundle you made an application form for amnesty, page 1 to page 3. Do you confirm the contents of the application - your application seems to be very much in order?

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson of who?

MR NYOKA: According to the bundle from page 1 to page 3 you made an application for amnesty - your application seems to be in order. Do you confirm the contents of that application and the signature on page 3 as being yours?

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I do.

MR NYOKA: You further made a hand-written application for amnesty to the TRC, the letter is undated, that will be Exhibit E from 4 to page 10. Do you confirm that to be your handwriting and your signature, and the contents of the application?

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I do.

MR NYOKA: When, if you can tell us, did you make this application?

MR MAKHULENI: It was 1996, roundabout March.

MR NYOKA: You heard the first applicant, Mr Mjikwa testifying before us regarding certain incidents. Do you confirm those incidences in so far as they relate to you as being truthful?

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I do.

MR NYOKA: Can you just mention the incidents, not going at length through them, just mention them, those that you confirm for certainty sake.

MR MAKHULENI: The first murder, the murder of the Police Officer, meaning the municipal Police Officer at Gwashu Street no 7, if I'm not mistaken the number of the house. The second murder of a certain Police Officer was in a truck, a municipal truck, the garbage truck at Gelo Street in KwaNobuhle. The third murder of the Police Officer was on duty at the Police Station in Langa. Those are the two murders together with their robberies of their firearms, I do confirm it.

MR NYOKA: What was the aim pursued for all these acts or incidents?

MR MAKHULENI: The aim was to disarm the enemy and to arm the people due to the fact that at the time there was no security upon the people because of the killings and the violence which was orchestrating in our Township.

MR NYOKA: Is it correct that at some stage you skipped the country, you fled the country and joined MK?

MR MAKHULENI: That's absolutely correct.

MR NYOKA: Where - on your return, which organisation did you join?

MR MAKHULENI: On my return I was a full member of the ANC. When I returned from exile I was returning duty, on a mission to help establish the national peace-keeping force which was - my region at the time was in Cape Town, Valkenberg - I mean Koeberg base, excuse me.

MR NYOKA: And when did you skip the country?

MR MAKHULENI: It was 1991.

MR NYOKA: And returned when?

MR MAKHULENI: 1994 on the 18th of February on a chartered plane of the South African Air Force.

MR NYOKA: What do you wish to say to the Committee?

MR MAKHULENI: What I wish to say, I would like to say to the Committee is to give clarity. I wouldn't like to assume that the Committee is fully aware of the political situation we were subjected to. I would like to give clarity exactly of what was happening in the Township and what coerced us to take a decision to resume the operation clean-up of 1985 which was ordered to us by the leaders, namely Zuongangalu.

MR NYOKA: Seeing that applicant no 1 has already made a motivation, can you do that briefly.

MR MAKHULENI: I can do so.

MR NYOKA: Thank you.

MR MAKHULENI: I will just brief the Committee that in Uitenhage in 1985, 16th of June a statement was made publicly, internationally by our Chairperson at the time who was Zuongangalu to us and to our community that it was a time to clean our Township from the dirt and also it was a time for operation clean-up, meaning that we have to clean our Township, we have to do away with the Police, we can no longer live with the Police in our Township.

They have to go away and stay away with their bosses, meaning at that time they were said to be Boers. Ever since then Uitenhage was the first, very first town or area where such a statement was issued all over South Africa that operation clean-up was set up. The Police were harassed, they were shot, they were killed. There was ware against the Police and the community at the time. It was only Uitenhage from the statement which was made publicly by Comrade Zuongangalu.

Then that operation seemed to be hanged up in roundabout 1986 due to when the decision was taken by COSAS that we should go back to school. In 1984, 1985, 1986 there was a stay-away from school, but when we went back to school, that mission or operation of clean-up was said to be hanged, that means suspended due to the fact that the ANC was calling for us to go back to school at the time. Through the organisation which were not banned or were still operating, the Youth Congress in Uitenhage.

In 1989, started 1987, we experienced violence in KwaNobuhle which was orchestrated by the system together with the Police - I mean the system together with the operative Ama-Vigilante. Ama-Vigilante were the group of people who were working with the Police, those people who have infiltrated another political movement which is called PAC. There was PAC and the ANC supporters.

Then the Vigilante infiltrated the PAC to orchestrate a system which was called the black on black violence in our Township, in my particular Township. So it would seem as if the war which was going on in KwaNobuhle Township was between the PAC members and the ANC members, which was not the case, it was between the Vigilante who infiltrated the PAC members versus the community because the Government had a programme of action to make sure that all the programme of action of ANC was disorganised.

Take for example the mass-defiance in 1989/90, the defiance can be in all those programmes of action, so the Government had to make sure that our community does not operate or exercise those programmes of action which the ANC was installing in the Township. So then they installed the black on black violence so that we should kill one another as flies. The call was made that the ANC wanted peace in South Africa's as a whole, in KwaZulu Natal, KwaNobuhle, in all the areas which were affected by this so-called black on black violence.

So then we made arrangements together with the principal of the school, HOD, as I have said in my statement, to try to arrange a peace process together with PASU to try to resolve our political differences which was at school at the time in 1989/1990. The violence started at school which poisoned the whole community, although there was peace, but the system was still operating.

We embarked on negotiations with PASU. At that process I was constantly informed that I was going to be assassinated due to my involvement in the peace process at school. I had to leave the peace processes to go to have military training underground inside the country, which was called a crash-course, that is on the affidavit. I was trained, a crash-course underground right inside the country, right in my area Uitenhage. I've said in my affidavit that I was introduced to this particular soldier who trained me by Mr Vuysile Thole. The name of this particular gentleman who trained me is in my affidavit, so I wouldn't like to dwell too much - to waste time on it because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKHULENI: Page 2 of my affidavit, paragraph 5.2. I briefly stated about my medical training inside the country. During that military training the peace process was continuing, but there was still a threat that the peace process which was going on was under threat, that at any time it might dissolve, it might end up as waste of time because there were actions which was planned by the Vigilante, whilst the PAC executive, the PASO, the ANC, the ...(indistinct) were busy negotiating.

On the other hand the Vigilante activities who infiltrated the PAC were planning to attack the comrades. They were not planning, they were attacking constantly the comrades, so the comrades were planning also to attack back to the Vigilantes Ama-Africa. So I made sure that I was given an assignment that I have to make sure that I safeguard that peace processes as I was trained inside the country and I was informed about this is not black on black violence, how it operates and why it was installed by the system.

So now I have to make sure that I counteracted that in my community so to help to make sure that that peace processes is not in jeopardy. Fortunately I was informed when I met Zolegeli as I've said in my affidavit somewhere along the line, I don't know whether it's page 5, when I met Zolegeli who briefed me about the meeting which was organised by my co-accused together with other comrades which we were working with. The meeting was in Tutosa.

They called all the activities, so-called the Self-defence Unities today, we call them the Self-defence Unities. At that time we called them Young Lions. All the Young Lions who were in Uitenhage, they were called in to Tutosa. That meeting - they were planning to attack back Ama-Africa together with the Police because of the constant killings which was continuing in my community whilst there was a peace process going on. Also those peace processes were the second peace processes, the first was in 1989, it was destroyed by the system.

Now this is the second peace process which we embarked on. Now I have to safeguard that peace process. I acted very fast and quick, I reported this to my commander. He told me that he knows Mr Mjikwa, he's been informed about him, unfortunately he has not yet met him, because his case is nobody knows where he is. But I have to make sure that I get to Mr Mjikwa and confirm to him that the attacking of Ama-Vigilantes at that particular time in 1990 will jeopardise the process of peace in our community.

The only thing that we could do is to do away with the Police, who are the heads of such black on black violence which were responsible for the killings of the people in my community.

So I made a way to find out where Mr Mjikwa was because it was difficult to find him as he was a refugee of the law at the time. I went to comrade Nkombese - comrade Nkombese is a well-known comrade in my community. He said - he told me that he's going to meet Mbuyiseli at the later stage and confirm to him, so they made arrangements to meet with him.

So I met Mbuyiseli through comrade Nkombese and I had a talk with him and I convinced him that the danger of attacking Ama-Africa and how it's going to result that many people would die and those people who die would be children because many children are already dead through that black on black violence.

So then ANC mission is to install peace in my community, but we cannot do that - we cannot do that if I let them go ahead with attacking Ama-Africa at that particular time. So the only way we could do is to make sure that we hit the head - we hit the snake on the head, not the snake on its tail. Ama-Africa was just the tail, not the head. So I convinced him that, comrade it's high time that we take up arms to make sure that we protect the peace processes.

As a trained personnel and also as an activist in my community for quite a very long time, as a comrade you have to serve, - you have to serve, you have to sacrifice. At that particular time I served, he had served. I have suffered, he has suffered, but the time had some to sacrifice for the betterment of peace in my community and stability. To stop the killings of innocent children and innocent people who knew nothing about politics, but they were killed, that's because they were in the community of Ama comrade, by the people who were the Vigilantes, who infiltrated PAC. The PAC was a pure political organisation which was banned and he had a military wing - he had no reason the kill the ANC people.

So we decided now it's time to act, to secure the peace processes. The only way we could do that, as I have already said, is to hit the snake on the head. The snake was the violence, the head were the Police. So all these killings of the Police comes from what I've already said. It's the reason why we went attacking them, we gathered information about the Police Station. Where were they - we resumed with the operation clean-up of 1985, we didn't want any Policemen in our community, to do away with them and also to put them at length, at arms - as far away as possible as we could.

But the only way to do that is to attack them, so that's what we did, we attacked them, and our mission was successful, because one thing I know, a killer is a very coward person, especially when the killer doesn't want to be known. When you know a killer is a killer he will run away. He will never kill again because he's ...(indistinct) to be killed. That's what was happening, the Police knew after we started to attack them that these people, what they are doing, they are just after us. They want the Police, not the Vigilantes. Why they don't kill the Ama-Africa, we didn't kill Ama-Africa - we met many of Ama-Africa in the way.

Some of them they were kissing girlfriends in corners of the city at night. We had a chance to kill them, we didn't kill them, we just greeted and told them it's peace amongst the people. We were against the enemy. They were surprised, some of them, why didn't we kill them. We were up to kill Ama-Police because of what they were doing to our community, to our society. I don't want to exaggerate and make an example of KwaZulu Natal because it's a ...(indistinct) situation with my community, what was happening in my community because the Government wanted to make KwaNobuhle same as KwaZulu Natal. Thank you.

MR NYOKA: Are you saying therefor that the decision to stop killing the Ama-Africa was taken later on, after the peace process was in operation and maturing, not that the decision was taken from the very first act?

MR MAKHULENI: The decision of stop killing Ama-Africa yes, was taken later on, on the second peace processes which we had, because we had the first processes of peace in 1989 at the ...(indistinct) but it was destroyed. As a result one of Ama-Africa was killed at Mtanzania, his name Ndluja. He was mugged by the community. More that 100 women were dancing on his head - tombstones. It was Ama-Africa, and that made ...(indistinct) he went to my community to have a drink, to drink because he knew that there was peace.

On the other hand the people who infected his organisation were killing other comrades in other areas so my community, the people of my community saw Luja as Ama-Africa so they hit him, they killed him.

MR NYOKA: What do you say to the victims of your actions like murder and robbery of the firearm of the Traffic Officer, what do you say to them?

MR MAKHULENI: I would to start to address Mr Yose. I would like him to know that our mission to him - I mean the mission of my comrade to him as I have disarmed him was not kill him. My comrade only wanted firearm, the firearm which it was not his, it was the State's firearm, the State which was responsible for the brutal killing of my people in my community and also all over South Africa.

So as we the community took up decision, we took a stand to say, stop, now it's time to say stop. The only way we could acquire firearm is to disarm all the State security, all the State agents, even the Traffic Cops. But because he was not responsible for the violence, he was not responsible for the killings, my comrade did not kill him, they just took the firearm.

Those firearms were used to kill the people who were killing the people, the Police. So I'm sorry if that process has resulted to his assault. I wish you could understand the situation we were subjected to at that particular time and our purpose at that particular time, and the mission we were at that particular time.

To the Police victims, the wives and the children, no-one was born a murderer. I was doing standard 10 in ...(indistinct) public school at the time I killed these people, I was in the physical science and mathematics class academic. My mom saw a doctor out of me. But because the system changed every dream I had. So the Police victims I would like to say I am sorry that I have killed your husband and the dear father to your children.

I am very sorry, but the situation - we were all victims, we were at war with the system, we were at war with the Government, we were at war, so the only way to fight the Government is to go through the security system. So I am very sorry that it had to be your husband, it could have been anybody's man at that particular time, we never targeted a certain particular Policeman like Mr so and so, we never targeted - it could have been any Policeman at that particular time, but it was a God call that he should be there that particular time. I believe that their blood also nourished the tree of this freedom we have today. I wish they could understand it in that particular field. Thank you.

MR NYOKA: Finally, I notice that your name is Sizwe, which means nation. Where you and your actions following your name in your political affiliation?

MR MAKHULENI: To respond to that, your highness, that was said by my family when I returned from exile, that they never thought that I will stand and fight for people, they just named me when I was born. So I really don't know, maybe the ancestors knew what they were doing with me.

MR NYOKA: I can confirm that they knew. No further questions.

MR GQOMO: No questions, Mr Chair.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got a few questions I would like you to answer. The first is, is it correct as you said in your application form, paragraph 11(a) that you acted on behalf of the Organisation without its approval?

MR MAKHULENI: In my application?

CHAIRPERSON: In your application.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I acted on behalf of my Organisation, but not with my leader's approval. Being militant, you don't have to be known. I was ordered to secure the peace processes by a soldier, but not a leader.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm looking at your affidavit now, paragraph 7, you shot the Policeman known to you "Shorts"?

MR MAKHULENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know him?

MR MAKHULENI: No, sir, I didn't know him, but I heard about him in my community. As you know that anything that happens in my community, especially when it comes to Police Officers - I heard about him, but I never saw him personally.

It was the first time when I saw him at the shebeen, when I asked him - before we shot him, I disarmed him. After disarming him I told him to stand about two feet from me. I asked him questions, what's your name. Then he conveyed to me that I'm Shorts Sesizwe, I'm known, I'm very well known, I'm Shorts. I said you are Shorts, that how I recall that his name is very popular in my community as one of the Policemen who was a gunslinger in my community. It was the first time I met him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. In your application, the annexure to your application, you have said and I quote from page 7,

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir, that's what I wrote.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAKHULENI: I heard about this incident, it was 1987, that a certain Policeman known as Shorts shot a pregnant woman in the stomach and Mabanza Road when there was a toyi-toying moving around in the corner of Mabanza. The woman was walking, so they were dispersing that toyi-toyi.

So as a result he shot a pregnant woman in the stomach, that's what he's well-known about. He's popular about that incident, everyone knows him about that, and also many convict identifies him. So each and every time a certain convict has been arrested he would complain that Shorts was there. Each and every time a certain convict was being killed, Shorts was there.

As far as I've said in my statement that we had funerals in my community of two to three bodies of a youth each and every week, I attended those funerals, but each and every time somebody dies in my community, the name Shorts will be mentioned in those funerals. Minnie, Shorts, Makalene and Subuku, those names are popular names in my community. The Police who were seriously working I will so call, like Mamasela.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he someone you deliberately executed?

MR MAKHULENI: Not deliberate executed, our mission was already started before we met him, we never hunted certain Police Officers, but he was there at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, the next matter is that you said that after you had shot the Policeman in the vehicle, you took his pump-action gun and later threw it away.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you throw it away?

MR MAKHULENI: It was my co-accused who threw it away because we had no bags at the time to hide it. I mean a pump-action is a very long ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't carry it around.

MR MAKHULENI: We couldn't carry it away. Zole took it and ran away with it so Mbiyiseli took it and said, come on baba, this is mjojo, and threw it away.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you said you were going to destroy the Langa Police Station, but you failed because you were not skilled enough for the job.

MR MAKHULENI: Would you like me to justify that, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?

MR MAKHULENI: Would you like me to justify that? What happened is that Zole gave us information about this particular Police Station, that it was used as a place to torture, as it - even if maybe someone could go and take pictures of that place would see that it's away from the Township, big outskirts.

Zole was tortured there and also many comrades complained about that particular Police Station is used as a place to torture many comrades, even the girlfriend of my friends were tortured somewhere in those Police Stations.

So what happened is that when Zole came up with this information I assigned him to go back, given the whole weekend, to look at what time could we get to that Police Station without any danger to us, like for instance to make us civilians. He came up with a report, he told that at 8 o'clock we should be there because at 8 o'clock is the appropriate time to attack the Police Station. We could destroy it, there are probably two or three Police Officers inside, that would be enough for us to kill and to destroy the whole place. I went myself to take my own civilians.

Is it true what you were saying, I spent the whole weekend, I saw exactly what Zole was saying is true, that if we could be there at 8 o'clock exactly we will manage to do the job well. But what happened that we were delayed at my aunt's place, we arrived at the place at 20h30 and at that time there were two vans in the yard and also this Police Officer was speaking to another guy at the gate. We waited there. At about 150 metres away from the Police Station there's a house, I might be wrong about the distance, maybe 100 or something.

So we stayed there about 30 minutes, it was till 21h00. People were still shouting, talking, talking, talking, I understand. So I said, okay comrade let's come back at 22h00 because I know at 10h00 it's teatime for them, they won't be here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this 09h00 in the morning?

MR MAKHULENI: 21h00 at night, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: 21h00 at night.

MR MAKHULENI: Let's take a walk and go to ...(indistinct) or that place is not far ...(indistinct). Let's go there, there's a ...(indistinct) show there. Let's just take a walk, we'll be back at 22h00. 22h00 we'll get the place as much as - we'll get the place so as we wanted to. When we left in retreating going to Jubel Hotel, but have to pass, it's the one way out, is to go through the Police Station again to pass in front of it. We were stopped, we were hijacked, we were gun-pointed, that's what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, now I want to ask you some personal questions.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand here, while you were still at school you were traced on one day, on February the 13th, by the Police and two Vigilantes and you were shot in your left leg, but you managed to get away.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And finally, while you were outside the country - you had safely left the country, you were spoken to by politicians about returning to the country.

MR MAKHULENI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you raised the question of your security and that the fact that there were outstanding cases against you.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand your report here, you said that you were told that you were South Africans, you belonged in South Africa and all those of you who had outstanding political cases would be granted amnesty.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Under the Joint Military Command.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you would then be integrated with other forces here.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on that basis you came back and you were integrated.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you told the - you made a complete disclosure to the people of the National Peace-keeping Force.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And they told you then there was nothing for you to worry about because you had amnesty.

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you continued in the Military for some time, till the 1st of September 1994, and then when you went back home you were arrested for these outstanding charges which,

MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, before I conclude, I just want to call one witness. He's not going to be longer that 10 minutes. Mr Sipho Wilton Sokelelo.

SIPHO WILTON SOKELELO: (sworn states):

EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mr Sokelelo, your name was mentioned by applicant no 1, Mr Mjikwa. Do you know the two applicants?

MR SOKELELO: Yes.

MR NYOKA: At the time, what was your position or membership, during '87 to '90?

MR SOKELELO: I was a UDF Executive.

MR NYOKA: Of Uitenhage or Eastern Cape, specify please?

MR SOKELELO: Uitenhage, I was a local executive.

MR NYOKA: How do you know them, the applicants?

MR SOKELELO: The first one is Mbuyiseli Mjikwa, I know him from the Youth group as we worked together. His colleague has already said we knew each other through the work that we did, we found out that he's in the Youth Group, these were the people that we could work together with in the Youth Organisation.

We were trying to make them leaders of the Youth Organisation so that they could advise the rest of the youth. Time elapsed and there were difficulties, it was difficult for the - the people who were after the UDF was the Special Branch, like Gerber. They were after us. We were in the liberation struggle. They found out that they could not win us over, so what they did is to divide us, cut us in half. Mr Ganke was a member of the PAC, he was taken by Fiks Gobese and they worked closely together.

There was a massacre in Uitenhage, that is why started working together, we all started working together with Gantjie from the PAC. The enemy then decided to divide our people so that the enemy can use some of our people against us. Most of the time it was difficult for them to get certain information if there was no enemy amongst us. They then divided us. We then had no real places where we could scatter and hide.

MR NYOKA: Were you aware of the acts committed against certain State organs, like the murdering of Policeman, and what was you attitude towards that?

MR SOKELELO: The organisation that we worked for and supported in South Africa was the ANC that was banned when the UDF affiliated the ANC. The Congress was focused on the white people. A ...(indistinct) is where white people eat,

INTERPRETER: The interpreter had difficulty understanding the words that the speaker is using.

MR NYOKA: OR is Oliver Tambo, Oliver Reginald Tambo, he assumed that you knew that.

INTERPRETER: No, I understood that, but it's difficult to understand the words that he's using. Did the witness say that the places where the white people were eating where being bombed?

MR SOKELELO: MK was planting bombs in all the places where white people ate. The ANC was then celebrating its anniversary outside the country and a new Constitution was formed. The documents were handed out to all the organisations in South Africa. The time had come to an end where we had to focus on white people. We had to focus on the people that worked for and supported the enemy, the Police. That is when Mbuyiseli and them decided to reach a certain decision, they decided to hit the enemy and his followers. That is why we could not ask them to stop what they were doing because they were being oppressed by the Police.

Black Policemen and Coloured Policemen were being used, they're the ones that were harassing us together with the PAC, the Vigilantes. It was then difficult to control the youth because they were being motivated because they saw their people being killed in the Townships.

As far as Mbuyiseli Mjikwa is concerned, when he came out of jail, whatever way he got out of jail, comrade Fiks had advised me that he'd got out of jail. He said that I should find a way to hide him. He said that he would be responsible for his hiding. Before I found a place for him we then decided to take him to Motherwell in the shacks. I couldn't remember now where it is, but we took him there. After a while we then took him to Mtanzania.

I worked from Mtanzania, because my work was to take somebody who was in trouble or in danger, and hand him over to my comrades in Mtanzania for safety. I was working for my brother, Tsawene Sokelela. They accepted him, they said that he is a colleague, and he should wait there. I then was told to go back to Uitenhage. That is all that I know about Mbuyiseli, I left him there in Mtanzania. I don't think that their killing the enemy is wrong. For their nation to die, their people to die, it was better for them to put their lives in danger. We did not tell them to kill people, it is the pain within them that caused them to pick the stone up and throw it at the enemy. Thank you.

MR NYOKA: You made a somewhat dangerous statement, you said that the ANC had earlier on targeted white people. Are you not making a mistake to the effect that perhaps you meant soldiers who were invariably white soldiers?

MR SOKELELO: Please repeat your question.

MR NYOKA: Unless I'm making a mistake, Mr Chairman, I don't think that was the position of the ANC, that earlier on ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say that comrades focused on white people, and places where whites ate bombed with bombs planted by Umkhonto, places where they ate?

MR NYOKA: Unless I'm wrong, Chairperson, that was never the objective of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's what your witness has said, wasn't it?

MR NYOKA: Do you still stand by that statement? Unless I am the one who is wrong, maybe I'm not acquainted with ancient history anymore.

MR SOKELELO: I'm not mistaken, I stand by that, it is so. During the apartheid ANC was focused on the oppressor, the white man. The enemy that was giving us problems in Uitenhage was the Special Branch, Gerber and them black members. This is why I said the ANC was focused on the white man because we were oppressed by the white man, like the branches that I have mentioned.

MR NYOKA: Finally, when they committed those acts as you said, each person felt his or her own pain, you did not reprimand them, despite knowing that they were the ones who committed the acts of murder and robbery on the Police persons, you did not reprimand them or disassociate yourselves from their actions?

MR SOKELELO: I said it was difficult to control the youth. It was the pain within them, seeing their parents being beaten, their friends being killed, they then had to take whatever weapon they had to attack the enemy.

MR NYOKA: But you did not dissociate yourselves from their actions, that was the question? Yes or no?

MR SOKELELO: I am talking about my views. I totally associated with them, that they should hit the enemy in whatever way they had to hit the enemy.

MR NYOKA: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR GQUOMO: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Mr Sokelelo, just one question, did the actions which were committed by the applicants, and for which the applicants now seek amnesty, contribute in advancing the aims of the organisation for which they say they were acting?

MR SOKELELO: The work that the comrades did is such that they played a large role in this political struggle in Uitenhage. They had to do whatever they needed to do because of the pressure that was upon them. The enemy divided us. We were working together as different organisations, but they came and they divided us.

MR MAPOMA: No I don't think you've answered my question. My question is whether their actions did advance the struggle waged by the UDF then.

MR SOKELELO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I've just got one question. The first applicant in his affidavit refers to Comrade-Major Sokelelo. Is that you or your brother?

MR SOKELELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you the person who arranged a passport for the applicant?

MR SOKELELO: No, that was my brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how he did it, or was it through the Party?

MR SOKELELO: What happened is, or what I was doing as my job is to take somebody who is in danger, I would take the person to East London and then I would disappear from the picture.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know?

MR SOKELELO: I don't know how he got the passport.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: No further witnesses, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any witnesses.

MR NYOKA: None, Your Honour, no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready to address us now, Mr Nyoka?

MR NYOKA: Ready Your Worship.

MR NYOKA IN ARGUMENT: With regard firstly to political motive, the two applicants have shown political motive, that was to render the Townships ungovernable and to defeat the organs of the State, like the Police, and to acquire the firearms for those purposes. No personal gain in all the incidents, like there were no rewards for the acts or acquisition of property like money or clothing, etc from the victims.

Applicant no 1 outlined at length the political motivations in Exhibit D. So did applicant no 2, who was very, very articulate. Even though the murders and robberies were not expressly mandated by their mother bodies like the UDF or UEKO, it was an implied mandate in that they were never reprimanded by their leaders, nor were their actions publicly denounced. Most importantly the UDF, which was a front for the ANC, only a 10 year old did not know that the UDF was a front for the ANC. Through its foot-soldiers like the applicants applied its policy of attacks on hard targets, being inter alia the South African Police and the SA Defence Force and other reactionaries or perceived reactionaries like Ama-Africa. Soft targets were explicitly forbidden at some stage, that is soft targets being ordinary civilians.

As far as full disclosure is concerned, the applicants made a full disclosure of not only the incidents they were convicted and sentenced, but also those for which they were acquitted, to show that they are bone fide or acting in good faith and take the process of amnesty seriously. To show that they made a full disclosure for instance, the only victim, Mr Yose, the Traffic Officer, who was legally represented here did not through his legal representative pose any questions, nor I will assume, oppose the applications. They were satisfactory, truthful and reliable and obviously intelligent witnesses, especially in Exhibit D, where applicant Mjikwa, who prepared his own motivation for his actions in a prepared speech, reminded one of the address from the witness box in the Rivonia trial of our now President Nelson Mandela. He acted like Nelson Mandela, maybe he will be one in future.

The final aspect of the application form, Mr Chairperson, the intention applicant no 2 has complied with that requirement. Let's come to applicant no 1 where there was a problem. The intention of applicant no 1 at all material times, and before the cut-off date, was to apply for amnesty for every criminal act that was politically motivated, including those for which he was acquitted. A lay person who initially and timeously applies for amnesty cannot be unduly blamed for his or application getting botched at some stage. Surely that was never the intention of the element.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it just as likely that a lay person would not bother to apply for amnesty for a matter he had been acquitted in?

MR NYOKA: Yes, but it shows that he wanted to say everything. I don't think they shall be treated in any poor light. The one who even applies for matters for which he was acquitted shows that he is promoting the TRC process, the Truth and Reconciliation by so doing. He's embracing it, he's an example of embracing the TRC process for the betterment of everyone in South Africa. I don't say someone who doesn't apply for matters for which he was acquitted, I mean is wrong, but it shows that the good spirit in which he's embracing the Truth and Reconciliation process and principle and concept and practice. Surely that was never the intention of legislature to forbid such genuine applicants from having their applications entertained. Applicant 2 complied with this requirement as I've said. It was furthermore applicant no 1's intention at all material times when he referred to an incident, we have meant not only a particular legal incident like murder and robbery, but we encompass them in one act, especially as the act of murder and robbery occurred simultaneously, therefor, Mr Chairperson, I think this is a classical case where applicants have satisfactorily complied with all the recommendations of the act, and should be granted amnesty without any hesitation. Thank you.

MR GQUOMO: Thank you, Mr Chair. Due to the fact that the applicants have applied for an act for which they were not convicted and the - I am of the view that I am not - on instructions of my client not going to make any submission and abide by the decision of the Committee. Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir, no argument.

CHAIRPERSON: As I indicated at the commencement, we will examine the files, because it seems to me there may have been problems as we said at some stage during the discussion. There are two numbers on his application form and it may be that there were other enquiries made or something was done. And there's also the problem between the judgement in the court a quo and the judgement in the Appellate Division which we want to look at the papers about, so we'll take time. If we do discover anything that requires any further investigation or matters of that nature we will communicate with you so you can make any submissions you want to or take any further action.

MR NYOKA: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the hearing of the matters that are set down here and we will accordingly adjourn. I would thank the members of the audience for the patience they have shown when we have started late on occasions, there's been some singing perhaps, but as soon as we've come into the hall there has been perfect peace and quiet, and I would thank all of you.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, just on a lighter note, the singing must have been attributed to the fact that yesterday we were very morose at losing at the game in France, so we have to sing today.