CHAIRPERSON: When we concluded the proceedings yesterday, Mr Makura had just completed his evidence in chief and so today we will commence with the cross-examination of Mr Makura.

Mr Makura, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: (s.u.o.)

MR LENGANE: Mr Chairman, I'd indicated to my learned friend, Mr Mpshe, that I had one additional question that I wanted to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr van den Berg.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Makura, other than the AK47 rifle which you were armed, did you have any other arms or anything of that nature on you at the time of the attack?

MR MAKHURA: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MAKHURA: I was armed with an AK rifle and a grenade.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Makura, in this operation, were you carry out orders?

MR MAKHURA: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: What was the answer?

MR MAKHURA: That is so, I was carrying out orders.

ADV MPSHE: Were you in that meeting wherein the decision was taken about Brigadier Molope? The meeting where Masina was and others.

MR MAKHURA: Yes, I was present.

ADV MPSHE: Now, when Mr Masango left you at the scene to keep guard to go and see Mr Masina, you had already taken a decision.

MR MAKHURA: We all went to Mr Masina and then he left me there on our way from Mr Masina and I guarded the place for an hour or more, but we already were back from Mr Masina.

ADV MPSHE: But all the same, when proceeding to Mr Masina you had already taken a decision?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, we had agreed as to carrying out the duty but we had to go and get the green light from Mr Masina, as our commander.

ADV MPSHE: By saying you wanted to get the green light from Mr Masina, did you want him to endorse your decision or did you want him to tell you what he feels about your decision?

MR MAKHURA: As he was our commander, if he had said that we should not do it or whatever decision he would come up with as a commander, we would agree with him.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you. Now when you were at the house, we are going back to the scene now, how many shots did you fire before Mr Molope could fall down? You remember you said you shot him somewhere on the side with the AK47?

MR MAKHURA: I don't remember how many rounds of ammunition did I use but as soon as he appeared I shot immediately. As I was on his left-hand side he was approaching Mandla Shezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mpshe, if I could just ask one question. Sorry to interrupt you.

The rifle you had, was it automatic firing?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, it was an automatic firing rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: When you fired, was it on automatic?

MR MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the rate of firing of that automatic rifle? How many shots in let say a minute or whatever unit you used to determine the firing power of that rifle?

MR MAKHURA: It's a long time since I underwent that training, thus I forgot the rate of firing but it is very fast.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MPSHE: But even if it is too long, if you just recall, could it fire automatically three at a go or four at a go? We don't want the exact number.

MR MAKHURA: An AK47 rifle you could hit two or three bullets at a time when you wanted, it's up to you to adjust it and as to how you hold the trigger, so it is up to you to control it.

ADV MPSHE: And an AK47 as you may well know is a very lethal weapon?

MR MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

ADV MPSHE: Now after he had fallen down why was there a need further to come nearer and shoot further, why would that be?

MR MAKHURA: I wanted to make sure that I've got him.

ADV MPSHE: How many shots did you fire when he was on the ground?

MR MAKHURA: I don't remember clearly because as soon as he appeared, even before he reached the ground, I was still firing at him.

ADV MPSHE: So in short we can say he was covered in a hail of bullets before he could even reach the ground, and got some even when on the ground?

MR MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

ADV MPSHE: Was he perhaps armed, that is Mr Molope?

MR MAKHURA: I don't remember whether he had a gun or not. If he had a gun he might have had it in his right hand because I saw him from the left-hand side. If he was left-handed then I didn't see the gun.

ADV MPSHE: Did you perhaps know a person by the name of Petros Mkansi who lives in Winterveld, Beirut, Petros Mkansi?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that last name please Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: M-K-A-N-S-I.

MR MAKHURA: No, Sir, I don't know him.

ADV MPSHE: Just remind me, is it not your evidence that you stayed in Winterveld? Who stayed in Winterveld?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, I was staying in Winterveld.

ADV MPSHE: Which part of Winterveld, closer to Beirut or far away from Beirut?

MR MAKHURA: There is a place called Luatle, that's where I was.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know the shopping complex, the only big shopping complex there was in Beirut then? It was the biggest shopping complex in Beirut.

MR MAKHURA: I don't recall because on that Saturday it was my first visit to Beirut.

ADV MPSHE: Did you ever come in contact - it may have been yourself or your fellow applicants, in contact with any businessman in the area of Beirut?

MR MAKHURA: No, Sir, I never met any businessman in Beirut as far as I can recall.

ADV MPSHE: Did you hold meetings whilst in Beirut, before the incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the units?

ADV MPSHE: The units, I'm sorry.

MR MAKHURA: Are you referring to our unit, our group?

ADV MPSHE: Ja, the Icing unit, did you ever hold meetings around Beirut?

MR MAKHURA: No, we've never held a meeting in Beirut because I was not staying there. I wouldn't call it a formal meeting but we would generally meet together but most of the time we used to go to Jabu's place in Mamelodi.

ADV MPSHE: Finally on this aspect. Other than the members of the unit in that meeting, those meetings that you held, were there any other people other than yourselves in your meetings?

MR MAKHURA: No, Sir.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know a gentleman by the name of David Nzemela? He is in prison now.

MR MAKHURA: No, Sir.

ADV MPSHE: Never heard about him?

MR MAKHURA: I don't recall.

ADV MPSHE: In conclusion and in all fairness to yourself, the questions that I've just asked is because there was an allegation, and I think your lawyer made mention of this Commission of Inquiry that was conducted, an allegation Molope was not killed by yourself but was killed by David Nzemela and he testified at that hearing, that he is the person who killed Brigadier Molope in Winterveld, as you testified yesterday. What is your response to that?

MR MAKHURA: I'm certain, 100% sure that I'm the one who killed Molope. I can even draw the house where he was because the South African Police at that time, I drew them a sketch of the house and even the AK rifle that they found, they told me after the ballistic test that is the rifle that was used to kill Brigadier Molope.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Makhura. That is all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

Mr Molope, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOPE: You are Mr Makhura isn't it?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: You are the person whom I should talk to because you killed my father. You killed him alone?

MR MAKHURA: No, we were two.

MR MOLOPE: Who is the other person?

MR MAKHURA: That is Justice Bizane. We used to call him Mandla Shezi at that time.

MR MOLOPE: His real name is Justice?

MR MAKHURA: The name I know is Mandla Shezi. I don't what happened to Mandla Shezi, he disappeared. The last time I saw a piece of news on the newspaper, I don't know as whether it's Dirk Coetzee saying that the person who killed Mr Molope together with de Kock saw they were killed. I don't know what happened to him.

MR MOLOPE: I'm talking about Justice.

MR MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: Who's Mzemela?

MR MAKHURA: I don't know Mzemela.

MR MOLOPE: You and Justice have killed Mr Molope?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: It is for the first I hear what happened to my father because all the time I did know what happened to my father. All the time we did not know what happened. At the time when you went there you were having an AK47?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: And hand grenade?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: You did not use the hand grenade?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, we did not.

MR MOLOPE: I want the truth. All other aspects are not useful. When a person has lost his father he wants to know what happened. You were trained is it?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: You had enough time before you did this job.

MR MAKHURA: What time?

MR MOLOPE: That is to say you were not in a hurry to complete the job.

MR MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: You checked your rifle?

MR MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: How many rounds did you have?

MR MAKHURA: It had thirty one rounds and another one was ready to go out.

MR MOLOPE: When you entered the scene of the crime, according to your statement you heard the girlfriend of Mr Molope?

MR MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: Did you knock?

MR MAKHURA: No - yes, we did knock. There is a door which is opposite, next to the door where we knocked. Justice knocked at the other door and then the other door was next to the toilets, it was partially opened. There was a movement on the opposite door and Justice shifted from the other door where he knocked to the other door where that girlfriend opened the door and then the girlfriend tried, when he opened the door, she saw our AK47 and then he tried to close the door.

When Justice was knocking on the other door then I said to Justice there is a movement on the other door, then Justice moved to the other door. Immediately when he tried to knock then the girlfriend saw the AK47 and then she tried to close the door again.

MR MOLOPE: You knocked at the first door?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, but there w as no response. Then the other door it seems was a toilet door, then there was a movement on the opposite door where the girlfriend appeared.

MR MOLOPE: Are these doors facing each other or these doors are separate?

MR MAKHURA: I don't know how to explain these doors. Do you see my hands? You come in that direction from the front, I was the corner and then Justice came and looked at the door which I said it is a toilet door, then he knocked on the other door, there was no response on that door, then I heard some movement from the opposite door, then I told Justice that there is a movement from the other door, then Justice moved to the other door. That is the time when the girlfriend opened the door, then that lady saw the rifles and then she closed the door.

MR MOLOPE: Are these doors on the same side? I don't understand what you mean by north, do you mean on the part of the house?

MR MAKHURA: There at the back when you enter through the gate you go behind the house then you find these two doors. I can make a sketch for you to understand.

MR MOLOPE: You said the girlfriend opened the door because people were knocking?

MR MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: She was not opening that door because she knew that there were people coming. I don't believe so.

MR MAKHURA: If she knew that we were coming she could not close the door because she struggled to close the door and that was too late.

MR MOLOPE: If I tell you that you talked with this girlfriend, I talked with this girlfriend then she said she couldn't do anything, you were coming and then that thing was already planned because she was a member of the Winterveld community and those people were against her so that she wanted to be safe and then that lady knew before that you were coming.

I think it's better that you should go and talk to her. You are not telling me the truth. You are not telling the truth and we need to know how our father died. Are you saying that this woman told you the truth?

MR MAKHURA: Are you saying that I'm lying?

MR MOLOPE: No, I'm saying you are lying because you are telling me a different version.

MR MAKHURA: Since from yesterday Mr Masina said his version and you and Mr Masango and Neo and you all say that we are lying. You came with an attitude and before hearing us out you just made a decision that we came here to lie.

MR MOLOPE: No, all I need is the truth.

MR MAKHURA: I told you, I even offered to give you a sketch, a drawing of the place. If I did not have the intention with you I wouldn't have come here but the problem is you have an attitude and before you hear us out you have decided that we are just telling lies.

MR MOLOPE: By the way you have killed our father.

MR MAKHURA: Do you believe that we have killed him? Why are you saying if you are telling me that I'm lying if I say that I killed him?

MR MOLOPE: The thing is I want to know the truth as to how you killed him.

MR MAKHURA: I'm telling you the truth What I'm saying is the absolute truth, we killed him.

MR MOLOPE: We as the family, we can only forgive you if you tell the truth. We understand why you killed but we want to know whether you did kill him. I can only forgive you if you tell the truth.

MR MAKHURA: Brother let me tell you here and now, I am here for reconciliation purposes. I went through all the pains to come here and tell the truth and therefore I don't understand what you're expecting from me or what you are saying.

MR MOLOPE: You are not prepared - you don't want me to ask you questions.

MR MAKHURA: It's offensive of you to tell me that I'm telling a lie. We are both Motswana men and I expect you to respect me. You have got the right not to believe me but don't tell me that I am lying.

MR MOLOPE: You are a murderer, you killed my father therefore I'm just requesting one thing of you. Since you are used to killing people, you mustn't come and kill me.

Right now you are saying that Chris Hani is the one that issued the instruction, but he is not here anymore. You feared Mangope, you should have killed Mangope.

MR MAKHURA: Please I'm pleading that this person must ask relevant questions about us not having Mangope and all that is not relevant.

MR MAKHURA: You mustn't come and kill me. Give me a chance to talk. I'm just telling you that you have killed my father as you have just claimed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molope, there's been no suggestion whatsoever that anybody is going to be coming after you. I think if you could just ask questions relating to the killing of your father.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Chairman, I have the right to ask him questions and when I feel that he is telling lies I should be able to do so. My father has died a long time ago and we want to know how he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want to restrict you in asking questions but the questions must be relevant to the hearing. You don't have to bring Mangope and the fact they mustn't come and kill you, there's no suggestion of that. If you can just keep the questions relevant, you can ask as many questions as you like but they must be relevant to the hearing.

MR MOLOPE: If he is lying, don't we have the right to tell him that he is?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you have the right to tell him that if that is what you believe.

MR MOLOPE: Did anyone pay you?

MR MAKHURA: Nobody paid me.

MR MOLOPE: Are you working at the moment?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, I am

MR MOLOPE: Where are you working?

MR MAKHURA: I'm working in CIS.

MR MOLOPE: At the moment you have benefited from what you have done or you currently benefiting.

MR MAKHURA: I wouldn't say that I'm the only one who is benefiting but the whole country has benefited because of the liberation. Mr Molope's death was part of the package of the liberation of our people.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Makhura, my father was a policeman and his duty was to maintain law and order and to prevent crime, therefore I don't agree with the fact that he had to be killed so that we should all be liberated. There were people who were governing in the previous regime and as a policeman you just follow the rules of the country to prevent crime but you have killed my father and we have suffered because of that and we are still hurting because of this.

One other thing that hurts me most is that even the people whom he was serving, as loyal as he was towards them, they planned everything with you people. I know that the Smith Commission of Inquiry he was a key witness and he agreed that he is the one who issued the order. That I agree with. I was quite fully aware at that moment but as to why he became the main target I do not know. He is not the one who killed the people in Winterveld. There were many other policemen who did such a thing.

One other thing Mr Makhura, please tell me you and Justice, after having killed Molope, did you mention that you were looking for Mokobojane?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, Mokobojane was also on our list. We were looking for him but we never found him on time because we were arrested quickly.

MR MOLOPE: But Molope was your prime target.

MR MAKHURA: Not necessarily Molope but whoever we found first of the two, Molope or Mokobojane we would have hit.

MR MOLOPE: Molope was transferred to Mafeking and he stayed there during the week and came here on week-ends. That is after the Winterveld massacre, Mokobojane took over here and he was staying here. But now what is surprising is that you didn't trace Mokobojane but you took pace to trace a person from Mafeking, you and Mokobojane traced this man and killed him and after killing him Mokobojane ran away because he knew exactly what was happening. That is the hurting part about Mr Mokobojane.

MR MAKHURA: Mr Mokobojane would respond to that, he was one of our targets and they were not our only targets, we had our other missions as well. It would be time consuming to focus solely on these two guys.

MR MOLOPE: What I'm telling you is that Mokobojane helped you to find Molope.

MR MAKHURA: He will be the one to respond to that, Mokobojane himself.

MR MOLOPE: My brother I do understand what is happening now. You did the job and at the end of the day you are well off with what you did. Whether you're granted amnesty or not, I don't have a problem with that but the problem is you are progressing and you've just said that you have killed him. He won't come back. Life must go on. He was a victim. You and the people he used to work with victimised him.

That is what hurts most. The present dispensation would have come into being even if he was not killed but I'm happy that you are progressing and doing well but at least now I know who killed him, despite the fact that I am not satisfied with your evidence. But God is there, I believe in him. Every dog has its day and if it's time to die then nothing can be done about it. God will be the one to forgive you but nothing can be done, life must go on.

Thank you, no further questions Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molope.

Mr Lengane or Mr van den Berg?

MR LENGANE: Lengane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lengane?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: There is just one question we have in re-examination.

You testified about the number of bullets that you had on you. If I understood correctly you said that there were 31 bullets in the magazine and then an extra bullet in the chamber.

MR MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: How many magazines did you have on you?

MR MAKHURA: Our AK rifles always had two magazines on them.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall how many bullets you had left after the shooting took place?

MR MAKHURA: We counted them, me and Mandla but I remember we did count them, but I cannot tell exactly how many were left.

MR VAN DEN BERG: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman.

Mr Makhura, you said you hit Brigadier Molope on the left-hand side, do you recall saying so?

MR MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

ADV MOTATA: And because of the hail of bullets he fell down?

MR MAKHURA: Yes, he fell down.

ADV MOTATA: How did he fall, on his face, side, how did he fall?

MR MAKHURA: He fell face down. He was moving towards Mandla who was shooting him from the front so he landed face down.

ADV MOTATA: I know it is a long time ago and this happened within split seconds, but you can testify that your gunshots, would you say your gunshots are the ones that killed him or Mandla's, or can't you say which one?

MR MAKHURA: I wouldn't say it's mine or Mandla's but we both fired.

ADV MOTATA: So would we be correct that yours mainly when he was down landed on his back?

MR MAKHURA: Because I was shooting him from the ...[indistinct] it is possible that they penetrated from the left.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

ADV SIGODI: I've got no questions Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions put by the panel?

MR VAN DEN BERG: None Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: None Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makhura, you may stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. That is the case for the applicants. We don't intend to lead any further evidence on this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, at this stage I will call the wife of the deceased to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it won't be evidence on the incident itself, it's just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: She wishes to say something?

ADV MPSHE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

Mrs Molope, what are your full names please?

MRS MOLOPE: Sinha Gadifele Molope.

CHAIRPERSON: Do have any objection to taking the oath?

SINHA GADIFELE MOLOPE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mpshe?

EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mrs Molope, you are the wife to the deceased, Brigadier Molope?

MRS MOLOPE: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: You will recall that yesterday as well as today you indicated to me that you would like to say something to this Committee on behalf of the family?

MRS MOLOPE: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: Now it is your time to tell the Committee what you want to say, in your own words.

MRS MOLOPE: What I want to tell the Committee is that I want to thank this Committee for this issue to be exposed before the whole family. I want to thank all these people who took part in this terrible deed, that God should bless them. To forgive them or not to forgive them will not a thing. What happened has happened. I want to thank them for what they did. God knows everything.

In all those days when I requested I was isolated from my family. I believe that today they heard the truth, they will come near me. You who have planned this thing, you've killed a person who was a murderer. I know now that there are no murderers who kill God's children. He disappeared from the eyes of the people whom he was torturing.

In those words I want to thank this Commission. I thank you. After you have revealed this incident after 12 years, let me say my husband, I know that he was killed with 21 bullets. They were not killing him but they were slaughtering him. Even when he was lying on the ground they continued shooting but it is alright. I give all things to God. God knows everything, even today. He knew how the day will be. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Molope.

Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: No questions Mr Chair, that will be all.

MR LENGANE: None.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Molope.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I had indicated yesterday about Mr Mokobojane, a notice was served on him yesterday and he is today present.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you need time to consult?

ADV MPSHE: I did have time to consult with him Mr Chairman. May I call him Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It's up to you Mr Mpshe.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, he will be speaking Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokobojane, do you have any objection to taking the oath.

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokobojane, could you please let us know your full names?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Diale Jerry Mokobojane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

If you're speaking in Tswana you must put the earphones on please.

EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mokobojane, you knew the late Mr Molope very well?

MR MOKOBOJANE: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: You worked together in the then Boputhatswana Police Force?

MR MOKOBOJANE: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: And at the time of his death, in the year 1986, you were the commander in the Audi region, am I correct?

MR MOKOBOJANE: At that time, yes, that is correct. I mean at the time of his death, that is correct.

ADV MPSHE: And he was at the time stationed in Mafeking?

MR MOKOBOJANE: At that time yes, it is correct he was in Mafeking.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Mokobojane, the reason why you were called to attend today is because members of the family, both yesterday and today, stated to this Committee that yourself and the applicants planned the killing of Mr Molope, what is your comment to that?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Chairperson, my comment is as follows: Before I comment let me start by saying, I thank the husband of Molope, that is happened - I would like to say that I am happy as Mrs Molope has already indicated that it is a good thing that this thing was finally revealed and thus it eradicates the rumours and the allegations that were assumed to be true and people have been arguing about who is telling the truth or not. And I'm happy today that the truth has finally surfaced today.

All the thoughts and allegations have been a lie. I know nothing, I know nothing about the plans of the death of Brigadier Molope. I want to stress the fact that me and Molope liked each other very much. Even on the day of his death he was at my home when I was still staying in Unit 8.

He found me at my home with my two younger children. He told me that he has just arrived from Mafeking and he found nobody at his home. It was in the afternoon. We had some tea and thereafter he left with my two children. We followed each other in our cars, the car that he had used from Mafeking.

We were on our way to the vegetable store which is Mr Palazi's vegetable market in Boekenhout. We both bought vegetables and thereafter we went separate ways. He told me that he was going home and I told him that I am going home as well.

I thought that when he said he was going home he was going to the D Section. I went back home. In the afternoon, I don't recall exactly what time but it's between four and 6 o'clock, Maklauli arrived at my home in Unit 8 and I was still with my children when he got there. At that time he said to me Mr Molope has been shot and hurt. He didn't say that he is dead. When he told me, he said that this happened at some house in Beirut.

That surprised me because I told him that: "No, I was with him a while ago and we both bought vegetables, he's gone home, have you just heard this from people"? I told him that this is not hearsay, I've seen him, I've seen ...[indistinct] to come and call you. I did not know that place that he was referring to, not at all.

We both left and he showed me where Mr Molope was killed. When I got there he was already taken to hospital. We went to the hospital and I found him there but unfortunately he was already dead when I got there. Therefore I would like to thank this Commission that - because no-one ever thought what the truth was and everybody was confused, including myself and Mrs Molope. Now the truth has come out, even if they are disagreeing with the truth that has been told here, but now they know who exactly did this. There is nothing else I can say but I want to stress is that I've got no links with these gentlemen. I've never had any links with them before and I don't even know them. That is all I can say, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe, any further questions?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I believe certain newspaper cuttings were put before your good selves. I'm going to continue with the witness based on these newspaper cuttings. It's two pages Mr Chairman. I'm not going to read everything, I'm just goining to ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: What we'll do Mr Mpshe, there are two photo-copied pages of press clippings, the one is headed:

We'll call that Exhibit A and the other page:

We'll call Exhibit B.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mokobojane, undoubtedly you knew a very well known businessman by the name of Mkansi, Petros Mkansi? You knew him very well?

MR MOKOBOJANE: That's correct Sir.

ADV MPSHE: And did you know a young man who was a prisoner in the Bop, in the then Bop, David Mzemela? There's a young man who evidence at the various Commissions, do you remember him?

MR MOKOBOJANE: No, I don't know him, I only saw him at that time when he appeared.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee I'm moving to Exhibit A, I'm going to A.

Mr Mzemela testified to the effect that you actually established a hit squad within the then Bop Government, called the Zebra Force.

MR MOKOBOJANE: I don't know, I previously denied that and I'm standing by that.

ADV MPSHE: And he testified that he is one of those that alleged that they killed Brigadier Molope. He testified that he was given instructions by yourself to go and kill Molope.

MR MOKOBOJANE: I wouldn't say that he is lying if he says that he killed Brigadier Molope but the fact that he got instructions from me is pure lies, it's not true at all.

ADV MPSHE: And he further testified that the whole planning of the killing was done at Mr Mkansi's house in Beirut and you were present.

MR MOKOBOJANE: There's no truth in that.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you. Mr Chairman, I'm moving finally to B, in conclusion.

To be fair to you what I'm putting to you is what I get from the newspaper cuttings which I will show you when we are through to be fair to you. It is reported in the newspaper cutting, Sowetan dated September, 17th, 1992 that you stated that Molope had to be killed because he had given evidence before the Smith Commission to the effect that it is the then President Mangope who ordered the killing of the Winterveld people, the Winterveld Massacre.

MR MOKOBOJANE: That's not true Sir.

ADV MPSHE: In conclusion Mr Mokobojane, as the then commander of the Audi region, were you able to establish how many bullets killed Mr Molope?

MR MOKOBOJANE: I cannot recall clearly as to how many bullets were used but I can say that it was a lot of bullets and he had many wounds that showed that many bullets were used to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you at any stage know the number of bullets that killed the deceased, and have you just forgotten or have you never known?

MR MOKOBOJANE: I did know but at this stage I just cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mrs Molope testified she mentioned 21 bullets, would that ring a bell with you?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I might agree with her on that.

ADV MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Mr Mpshe, Exhibit A, the newspaper clipping entitled:

Do you know from what newspaper it comes from?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible] note that but I will ascertain very soon and I will make it known.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Just one or two questions Mr Chairman.

You were a loyal servant of the Boputhatswana Government, weren't you?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And as a result of your loyalty you were promoted?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were also, prior to your promotion, the deceased Colonel Molope's assistant, is that correct?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you were responsible, or you were involved in the same kinds of activities as he was involved in?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you participate in the Commission of Inquiry into the Winterveld Massacre, the Commission presided over by Mr Justice Smith?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir, I did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall what the response of the community was when Brigadier Molope was promoted at that particular Commission?

MR MOKOBOJANE: No, Sir, I'm not aware.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you recall that the community or the lawyers representing the community at that Commission of Inquiry withdrew when Molope was promoted to Brigadier?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Please repeat your question.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Perhaps I phrased it inelegantly. At the Commission of Inquiry, the lawyers representing the community withdrew from the Commission on the news that Brigadier, or that Molope had been promoted to Brigadier, do you recall that?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I recall that but I do not recall what the community said, but I just know that he was promoted to being a Brigadier when he was ... What I'm trying to say is that when he left, he left Audi to Mafeking promoted as a Brigadier.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molope, do you have any questions you wish to put to the witness?

MR MOLOPE: Mr Mokobojane, the dead Brigadier Molope came to your house first?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes. I said that he came to my house but I did not know where he was from.

MR MOLOPE: He said to you he was from Mafeking?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, he said to me: "I arrived yesterday from Mafeking but I found nobody at home".

MR MOLOPE: It was on a Saturday and he said that he had arrived the Friday?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: From there on you went to him to buy vegetables?

MR MOKOBOJANE: That's correct.

MR MOLOPE: And then you went separate ways?

MR MOKOBOJANE: That's correct, we separated right at the vegetable stall.

MR MOLOPE: Did you know that he has been having a house in Winterveld?

MR MOKOBOJANE: No, I was not aware of that at all.

MR MOLOPE: Did he have a phone in Winterveld, Mr Molope, did he have a phone? Did he have a telephone?

MR MOKOBOJANE: How would I know if I did not know that he had a house there?

MR MOLOPE: What I'm trying to say is, the time he was a District Commander, didn't you know that he was staying in Winterveld?

MR MOKOBOJANE: I have already said that I never knew that he had some house in Winterveld. I only learnt when he was hurt, when I was taken there. That is what I've already said.

MR MOLOPE: After his death you said that you went to the scene of the crime, is that what you're saying? After having heard that he died, did you see where this happened?

MR MOKOBOJANE: I was taken there to there to see exactly where this happened, hoping that he would still be there, but he was already taken to hospital.

MR MOLOPE: Do you know this Mkansi that we are talking about?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I know him very well.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Mokobojane, despite the fact that you say that you don't know these men ...

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I'm saying that.

MR MOLOPE: I would agree with you but I want to say to you there is a possibility that these men, there was a middleman between yourself and these men. ...[indistinct] you never had contact with them and that person is the one whom you fed with information and he was working with them because I know where Mr Mkansi stays and he is a prominent figure in Beirut.

The fact that you said that you were not working with this guy might be true but you were working with them via Mr Mkansi, and that is all I have to say.

MR MOKOBOJANE: Do you want me to respond by saying that you are saying that I was giving instructions or I was informed by Mkansi about Molope's ways and then I would evade the whole thing, is that what you are saying to me, that I was fully aware via Mkansi?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Mr Molope does not want to respond to that question, I think that is the end of his questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman.

Sir, somebody was arrested and sentenced to 15 years for the death of Brigadier Molope, are you aware of that?

MR MOKOBOJANE: I'm not aware of that Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Mzemela is the name of the person who was arrested by the then Boputhatswana Police and apparently sentenced to 15 years, you haven't heard of that at all?

MR MOKOBOJANE: No. I heard about Mzemela during the Commission hearing when he was incriminating me and Mkansi, that we were working with him and that was not true.

ADV MPSHE: Perhaps Mr Chairman, I may come in here to assist. David Mzemela was in jail at Rooigrond for something else, not for this incident and he was allegedly recruited to carry out the jobs outside when he was in prison.

ADV MOTATA: I would apologise to you Mr Mokobojane. In any event, did you know the police, since you were also in the Police Force, who were investigating the death of Brigadier Molope?

MR MOKOBOJANE: Yes, that's correct Sir.

ADV MOTATA: In all fairness to you, the applicants have said that shortly thereafter they were arrested and they told the South African Police that they are responsible for the death of Brigadier Molope. Where you ever in contact, or the investigating officers in contact with the South African Police to get this information or did it come to your attention that there are people who are already arrested who killed Brigadier Molope?

MR MOKOBOJANE: I would like to say this case was handled by another gentleman who was second in command and he was based in Mafeking. He was handling Molope's case and investigating it. I do recall that one day there was a rumour that there are people that were arrested in South Africa but not here in Boputhatswana and had mentioned that they also had a role in Molope's case. That is what I am aware of and that's what I heard.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mokobojane.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

ADV SIGODI: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I have none.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokobojane, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that will be the evidence for the bereaved family. I don't like the word: "victim".

CHAIRPERSON: Are you gentlemen in a position, perhaps after a short break, to make your submissions?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm obviously more comfortable with presenting them to you in written form at a later stage but we have drawn some very short heads. I unfortunately haven't been able to have them typed up. If that will suffice, I would request that I may supplement them at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll have a short adjournment. Perhaps we can have an early tea. We won't have a short adjournment, come back and then break after a few minutes for tea again. If we can just perhaps take the tea adjournment at this stage, and we'll adjourn till ten to eleven. Would that suit? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

The requirement which you need to satisfy yourselves are set out in Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act. The first requirement relates to the formalities of the application. We'd respectfully submit that the application was filed timeously on the prescribed form and that it was properly signed. I have made a note just to obtain the copies of the originals so that those can be made available to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps that can be done through the offices of the TRC rather than coming to you and then back again. I can make arrangements myself to get sight of them.

ADV MPSHE: Perhaps Mr Chairman, to cut it short, I have seen the applications, they are at the office, they will duly signed and I will make them available ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you say you've seen them Mr Mpshe and the witnesses say they have signed them then I am certainly prepared, I'm sure we are all prepared to accept that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Mpshe.

We'd respectfully submit then that the application complies with the requirements of the Act, that the formal requirements have been fulfilled.

Sub-Section 2 deals with what is meant by an act associated with a political objective. We'd respectfully submit that it is common cause that all four the applicants were members of the ANC, were members of Umkhonto weSizwe and so they would fulfil the requirements of Section 2(a). They also fulfil the requirements of Section 2(d). They've each testified insofar as they have knowledge of the mandate given to the unit, primarily from the evidence of the applicant, Masina but they've each confirmed that that was their understanding.

The act which they were involved in, the act which is before this Committee, was the death of a senior Boputhatswana policeman. And we would submit to that, that that fulfils the requirements of (d) in that it was an act directed against the state.

What has been raised through the family of the deceased, was the question of the bona fides of the applicants. In other words, was this a political act or was this an act for which they received payment, an act on behalf of a rival of the deceased. We would submit that there is no evidence to support that, there is no evidence whatsoever.

As we said earlier, they each testified to the mandate, they've each testified to the manner in which the deceased was identified as a legitimate target. In this regard the evidence of Masango is particularly relevant. And the person on whose behalf they would purportedly have carried out this private vendetta has denied that. There is no link whatsoever between Mokobojane and the four applicants.

Insofar as there may be a question in respect of the involvement of the applicant Potsane, we would submit to that the requirements of 2(f) have been fulfilled.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be conspiracy?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That would be conspiracy, yes Mr Chairman. It requires that he must have reasonable grounds for believing that he acted in the course and scope of his duties. Sorry, I'm referring you to the wrong section, my apologies, it should be 2(g). That is a person who associates himself or herself with any act.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the possible prosecution of that applicant would in relation to conspiracy, so there would be an offence. We wouldn't be granting amnesty for nothing, I mean for no offence. We've got to have some sort of possibility of a criminal prosecution or a civil suite against him in order to get the amnesty.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes, we would agree with that. There is also the doctrine of common purpose which would come into it.

If one then has reference to the criteria set out in Section 20, Sub 3, the motive of each of the applicants has been covered in their formal written application. The context of the act or the context in which the act took place was summarised by the witness we called, Mr Lehobye.

The legal and factual nature of the act is probably best encapsulated by the evidence of the applicant Makhura. We heard from each of the applicants how the target was identified. We'd from the applicant, Masango in respect of the reconnaissance and the preparatory work that was done, but at the end of the day the act was the death of Brigadier Molope.

There is the question of the proportionality of the act. We heard this morning a suggestion that Molope died in a hail of bullets. It would appear that he was shot 21 times but it is not as if Molope was kidnapped and tortured to death, it's not as if, it's difficult to say that this was a plain and straightforward assassination but that is really what it was.

There was also the evidence of the applicant, Makhura, in respect of what arms and ammunition he had available to him and there was nothing which prevented them from throwing a handgrenade into the house. There was direct evidence from Masango and from Makhura in respect of the civilians present on the premises. There was evidence that there was a woman and a child on the premises and that steps were taken to ensure that they were not caught in the cross-fire.

I would submit that what the applicants sought to achieve and the means which they used to achieve that, that those were proportionate in the overall context of the struggle in South Africa.

In respect of an order, they've testified to a broad mandate. The fact that the unit was tasked, that it was an elimination or an assassination unit and that it was tasked by Chris Hani with a category or categories of the persons who would be legitimate targets. There is also the evidence that they reported back on this incident and on other incidents.

There is no evidence of any personal malice on the part of the applicants against the deceased. There is also no evidence of any personal gain. It is so that the four applicants are now in one or other form employees of the state with the exception of the applicant Mr Masango.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that that qualifies as personal gain, some employment that was received some eight years after the event. I think personal gain we all know means getting a fee or a payment for a specific job done at the time or thereabouts.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm indebted Mr Chairman.

Sub-Section 1(c) then requires that the applicants make full disclosure. They have each candidly confessed their role in the death of Brigadier Molope. It would have been very easy for the applicants, Masina and Potsane to say that all they had was knowledge but each and every one of them has associated themselves with the act, has associated themselves with the target identification and with the ends sought to be achieved.

There is the painful aspect that the elimination took place at the home of the lover of the deceased but that was something that was particularly relevant and which had to come out. The applicants may be criticised for the fact that they couldn't recall the number of bullets, the number of time that the deceased ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence in that regard was that Mr Makhura said that he counted them, him and Justice but he can't recall the number. I'm sure that at the time of shooting, when you're using an automatic rifle, two automatic rifles being shot at the same time, you don't count the number of shots you hear. I don't think that it's too serious.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. There is also of course the passage of 12 years since this incident took place.

In the circumstances we would respectfully submit that they have fulfilled the criteria as set out in the Act and that they are entitled to amnesty for the death of Brigadier Molope.

Thank you Mr Chairman. I have ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, in as far as the requirements are concerned, I'll start with the political objective. I do not have anything to say to that Mr Chairman.

In as far as full disclosure as well is concerned, Mr Chairman I discussed this with my learned friend that I find myself in a difficult position in that if you gainsay what has been said you must be able to substitute and say: "This is the truth", but in this incident I find myself in a difficult position in that before the applicants could come forward some other person has allegedly claimed to have done the job. And in addition, this was not part of evidence but the PAC as well stood up and said: "We are responsible". Now that clouds my mind further. Unfortunately in this regard Mr Chairman, I cannot assist the Committee, so I'll leave it to the able decision of the Committee.

Mr Chairman, the only aspect I want to refer to is the one referred to by my learned friend, one of the criteria under Section 20, Sub-Section 3, paragraph (f) and more particularly to what he said about the aspect of proportionality. Mr Chairman, even if we are not sure as to how many bullets were used, but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We know that it was a significant amount of bullets and probably the amount mentioned by Mrs Molope may be the correct amount.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will abide by that Mr Chairman. I will not belabour that point any further but just to draw the Committee's attention to that aspect. That will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, it won't be necessary for you to submit further heads of argument.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That means I can have Monday off, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will reserve our decision which we hope will be made public as soon as possible in the near future.

Before we adjourn I would just like to thank first of all the authorities for allowing us to use this very nice and convenient venue for the hearing. I would like to thank all the people who have made this hearing possible and all the people who work in the Logistics Department of the TRC, Mr Mpshe and others, our secretary Sonja how helped set up the meetings. I'd like to thank the Interpreters for the work that they have done, it was very good. I'd like to thank the police for the security arrangements that they've conducted at this hearing, it's been very good indeed. I'd also like to thank all the people who have come to listen to the hearing. The media for being here, thank you very much indeed.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, before we adjourn, the ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: There's the question of victims.

ADV MPSHE: With regard to Exhibit A, I've established that that comes from the Sunday Times but I could not establish the date but that is a Sunday Times article.

Mr Chairman, further I want to make an application in compliance with Section 22 of the Act, that the following people be declared victims in this incident. I will mention their names Mr Chairman.

That is the daughter Mr Chairman, she is married now. The last one:

That is another daughter, also married and who has a change of surname. Their address Mr Chairman, is:

Thank you. That will be all Mr Chairman, thank you.