--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we are about to start. For the record, it's Wednesday the 25th of November 1998. This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee in regard to the applications of members of the Thokoza Self Defence Units. The panel is as before and Advocate Steenkamp appears for the Commission as the Leader of Evidence.

Now I notice that we've got a number of applications, in fact there are four that are noted. Are those the ones that we will start off with, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: As you please, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members. First of all let me apologise for starting late, Mr Chairman, it's due to unforseen circumstances. Yes, Mr Chairman, the first applicant will be Mr Majiki. His application appears in the bundle on page 273. This is the bundle that is marked "Lusaka-A", that is Lusaka-A, page 273. His amnesty number is 7693/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one that we will start off with?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman. Just for the record and for clarity's sake and to be fair to certain representatives of the victims. Mr Chairman, I received a memo dated 23/11/1998. If I'm not mistaken you have a copy in front of you, Mr Chairman. A copy has been signed by Mr M A Msizi. I've received this memo via one of the Logistical Officers, Mr Lebo this morning by hand.

There are certain requests in that memo and with your indulgence Mr Chairman, I will be in the position to fully respond to this memo by 11 o'clock. I've asked one of the Analysts to give me more information and I would beg leave for you to make a decision on the contents by 11 o'clock if that is at all possible, Mr Chairman, within an hour. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed there is a letter on a letterhead from Inkatha Freedom Party which is dated the 23/11/98 and it contains, in the final paragraph of that letter, a request that these proceedings which in according to the heading of the letter, are the hearings here in Palm Ridge as well as the simultaneous hearings in Vosloorus as well as the hearings that had taken place in Mayfair, to be postponed to a later date. I assume, Advocate Steenkamp, that you oppose that request and that you are requesting the panel at this stage to proceed with the hearings and that you will respond to this in more detail later?

ADV STEENKAMP: That is indeed the position, Mr Chairman. I would beg leave that we proceed at this stage. Mr Msizi is not present himself so I would oppose this application made apparently by the Inkatha Freedom Party. I don't know in what particular position Mr Msizi is making this application but at this stage I would beg leave that hearing as it stands be continued, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that we are satisfied that first of all there is no formal application for a postponement before us, but secondly, just on a cursory reading of the contents of this letter, we are not persuaded at this stage that we should be suspending these hearings and we will accordingly proceed to hear the application of Mr Majiki.

Mr Sibeko, are you appearing for Mr Majiki or is it one of your colleagues?

MR SIBEKO: I'm appearing for Mr Majiki, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names Nicholas Mbuyselo Majiki?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Majiki, you are an applicant in this forum, is that correct?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I am an applicant.

MR SIBEKO: You are applying for amnesty as a member of the Self Defence Unit at Lusaka-A, is that correct?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, that's correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know exactly what necessitates your application?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I know.

MR SIBEKO: Would you tell this forum exactly why you apply for this amnesty.

MR MAJIKI:

MR SIBEKO: Before you proceed, Mr Majiki, you say there were shots coming from the no-go area, which area are you referring to?

MR SIBEKO: Your comrades came to you with those photos, the photos of IFP members, what was wrong with the photos? What was the reason for him to bring those photos to you?

MR MAJIKI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, just hold on for a minute. I think we might have a problem with the translation. You're client's testimony that he had just given was not interpreter so perhaps you can just lead him on that again, on the photographs, the point that you were making about what was unusual about the photographs. Perhaps you can just repeat that.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Majiki, you told us that your comrades came to you with photos of IFP members, what was wrong with the IFP members in those photos, what was the significance of those photos to you?

MR MAJIKI:

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just interrupt. Mr Majiki, it's still not too clear to me as to what was depicted on the photographs, what made you decide or agree that these particular people were either IFP people or people who associated with people who were attacking you? What did you see, was it a party, was it dead bodies with them standing next to them? I'm not too sure as to what you saw in these photographs.

MR MAJIKI: I will say in our area, residential area, we had this conflict facing the Xhosas and Zulus as well and it went on to an extent that it did not discriminate. Now anybody would be affected, even Sotho's as well would be part of this.

At night when there would be attacks they would attack indiscriminately and they would kill at random just like that and in the morning we will discover dead bodies because of that.

In our residential area we knew that we did not need any IFP member, especially in the section we occupied. We were not quite sure about their activities inasfar as the attack was concerned, so we managed to leave or be isolated from them so that it is clear that they fall in one group and we are in the other group.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Majiki, by the time you ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry, Mr Sibeko. I think the witness has not - in my understanding, if I follow his answer to the question that was asked by my colleague I think he's not, he's made no attempt whatsoever to answer that question.

Mr Majiki, what exactly did you see in these photographs?

MR MAJIKI: We saw people on those pictures, many people who had red headbands with spears in their hands. They also had T-shirts of their organisation that they belonged to.

ADV SANDI: This person you were talking about, was he also one of these people on this photograph?

MR MAJIKI: The one I'm talking about is the very one who was in the front of the whole group that appeared on the picture.

ADV SANDI: Who did you say came with these photographs to you? Did you say it was - they were your comrades?

MR MAJIKI: May I ask if you are referring to the ones appearing on the picture or the ones who brought the pictures, the photos?

ADV SANDI: The ones who brought the pictures.

MR MAJIKI: Yes, they were comrades, the ones that brought the photos were comrades.

ADV SANDI: Where did they say they got them from? Did they tell you who had taken the pictures?

MR MAJIKI: No, they did not say as to where they got those photos.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBEKO: Now Mr Majiki, having looked at these photographs, how did you come to the conclusion that these people were at the time at that particular house which you visited?

MR MAJIKI: Lusaka-A as our residential area, as the community we will know exactly as to who is residing in a particular house and who is the occupant of this house and if they are Sothos and so and so on. And we will also know that at Ndlovu's house there will be having also in the same premises Xhosa speaking people or Zulus and so on.

MR SIBEKO: I'm not yet answered. In those photographs - let us start here, at the time those photographs were taken, were these people outside the house or inside?

MR MAJIKI: These are pictures of the people who formed part of the march. The people who appeared on these photos were people who were in a march.

MR SIBEKO: So you - through the pictures you identified some of the people to be staying at that particular house, is that correct?

MR MAJIKI: There was an area or a house particularly that was occupied by the Zulus and some of the people we identified on the photographs were from that particular house.

MR SIBEKO: Right, proceed, Mr Majiki.

MR MAJIKI: When we were done at that scene as we had started running away, we disappeared after the shots of that AK47.

After a while, a few minutes, maybe five minutes later we attempted to go back to that scene. We discovered that the person who was in our company was no longer there. We did not know what happened or how he disappeared subsequently and what happened was that that evening there was no rest at all. There were meetings that were called, one after another, many meetings of the community called.

At these community meetings it was suggested that people are dying and what should be done in light of this problem until the community agreed that the community will donate some money and after that weapons should be purchased to defend the community.

People would not be staying at their houses, we'd always be on the road running away. The community donated some money until we were in a position to buy ourselves weapons to defend the community.

MR SIBEKO: Now by that time you were already a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, that's correct.

MR SIBEKO: Did you join the unit freely and voluntarily, nobody forced you?

MR MAJIKI: No, I was not coerced. Because the situation was so bad and volatile there were no other means and I had to join out of my own volution.

MR SIBEKO: Now before us we've got evidence to the effect that at your place, that is Lusaka-A your first commander was a person by the name of Mfinos, were you a member of the Self Defence Unit at the time Mfinos was a commander?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I was.

MR SIBEKO: Were there incidents other than the one that you have just narrated, wherein you were involved under his command?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, there are other incidents that took place during Mfinos' era. If it would have happened, it so happened that Section Slovo and Thambo one evening was attacked and we took to the streets under the commandment of Mfinos, to enlist some help at those places which would be attacked.

In addition to what I've said, under the commandment of Mfinos there were no incidents that affected us to the extent that something out of the ordinary has happened. We would respond to the call and we would find out that the situation has been already quelled.

MR SIBEKO: But before you proceed. You have just indicated that under his instructions or command you went to Slovo and Thambo Section, what actually took place when you arrived there? What did you do?

MR MAJIKI: Under the instructions of Mfinos we did not at the time have enough weapons to arm ourselves. It would be a few of us, the minority who would be having weapons. You would find that some of us like myself would be having knives just to see as to what was happening at the area where there would be attacks. In other words I will say the violence, we would hear from those who would be asking for our help as to what happened before we arrived.

MR SIBEKO: Were you still a member of the Self Defence Unit at the time Mosa Msimango took over as a commander of the branch or of the unit?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, then I was a very strong and staunch member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: Are there incidences wherein you were involved at that time of, at the time Mosa Msimango was commander?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, there are.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those incidences?

MR MAJIKI: The first incident I took part under the command of Mosa Msimango relates Mshayazafe area and Mazibuko I was there as well.

ADV SANDI: Sorry to interpose. What happened at Mshayazafe area?

MR MAJIKI: As I've already indicated earlier on, our section as it was a section that was in the middle, the role that we played was to help assist the other upper sections from our area that were being attacked. In other words I would say what happened there were people shooting at each other, crossfire in other words, one group shooting the other and the other shooting the other group.

ADV SANDI: Were those the people with the red bands?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, we were fighting those ones with the red headbands.

ADV SANDI: Were you personally armed which this thing happened at Mshayazafe?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I was armed with an AK47.

ADV SANDI: Did you pull the trigger?

MR MAJIKI: The way things were you would not go there and form part of the incident without shooting. The minute you think you want to withdraw it may so happen that you would have left the area where you're supposed to be. In other words I did pull the trigger, I shot.

ADV SANDI: Did your bullets hit anyone?

MR MAJIKI: Because of the situation that prevailed at that particular time we would be so remote from one another, it would be a distance of about 500 metres and you'll that person is shooting at you and now you are shooting at him in such a way that it would not be very clear and obvious as to who or how many I've shot and ensure that they are killed, or they've been killed.

ADV SANDI: Did some of the people from the group you were fighting with get killed and injured?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, some were injured from our group.

ADV SANDI: What about the other group from the other side, did anybody get killed?

MR MAJIKI: Because we were not on good terms, we would not be able to get information as to what transpired on the other side as a result of this conflict. We would have details of our own group but not the opposing group. We would not have details pertaining to what happened.

MR SIBEKO: But it's possible that people from the other side could have died or got injured?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, it's possible.

MR SIBEKO: Now besides this incident, are there other incidents you were involved in under Mosa Msimango's command?

MR MAJIKI: Please repeat your question.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have other incidents wherein you were involved at the time Mosa Msimango was a commander?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR MAJIKI: No, there are not any other incidents under the command of Mosa Msimango. One that I will make mention of is the one of Mazibuko after the one of Mshayazafe. I was there and we shot.

MR SIBEKO: At Mazibuko, were you carrying a weapon?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I was always in possession of my firearm, that is the AK47.

MR SIBEKO: You have just told us that you were fighting and shots were fired, did you also, or were you one of those who fired shots?

MR MAJIKI: I will not say I never shot, I did shoot at all these incidents that I took part in because it was a war situation.

MR SIBEKO: The same question again, do you know whether people from the other side died or got injured as a result of the shooting?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I would say that some got injured, some were killed because a firearm is not designed in such a way that you would be cultivating the ground or as a duco of some kind. You see if you pull the trigger, using the firearm, once you pull that trigger what will be discharged from that firearm will definitely injure or kill.

MR SIBEKO: Did you know about the existence of the Committee of Seven?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I did hear about the Committee of Seven although I never had an encounter with them or got into contact with them or sat down with them and receive instructions, no. All the instructions I received from Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: Now in front of me here I've got your application and I noticed that your application form is not signed, do you have anything to say about it?

MR MAJIKI: May you please repeat your question.

MR SIBEKO: In front of me here I've got your application for amnesty and I notice that it is not signed, do you have anything to say about it?

MR MAJIKI: In relation to that, it would be because the forms were filled with so much urgency and the person who was assisting us to fill up this form was not knowledgable about the procedure. Maybe that occurred as a result of that.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any other thing to say to this Committee?

MR MAJIKI: One other thing that I would like to say to the Commission is that as we had this violence continuing, there were also gangsters that took part and it looks like they were being used by the police to harass the community. The community was harassed a great deal and that's one other problem that we encountered.

MR SIBEKO: Those gangs that you are talking about, were they just ordinary gangsters or what type of gangs are you referring to and if gangsters what are their names?

MR MAJIKI: The first gang was known as Bad Boys, the second one was known as Khumalo gang. Now the Khumalo gang, you could not bear it. They would shoot and they were not playing. When they shoot they were also nor afraid of the police, whether they would be present or not.

And you'll appear in your T-shirts, organisational T-shirts, they will shoot in the presence of the police. If you think the help will come from the police you will just be wasting your time because they feared nothing.

MR SIBEKO: Did you have any altercation or did you exchange fire with any of the gangs that you have just mentioned?

MR MAJIKI: With regards to the Khumalo gang, yes we did have some kind of altercation, to an extent that my friend by the name of Lucky got killed, Lucky Mompoero and he was my close friend and we were both comrades. What led me to bravely say that the Khumalo gang was opposing strongly the comrades is because of these things. And if you put on an All Star, those are tennis shoes, you would be killed or you would be attacked as a result of that.

And there is another gang called ISU. I will refer to them as a gang because you will not be arrested, you will either be tortured or be killed, they will never discover your body thereafter. They were other people who brought problems in our residential area, ISU that is. To such an extent that once you come into contact with a firearm, once you are faced with them that probably be your last day because either you'll be killed or you'll be crippled.

These are other things that brought harassment and torture in our residential area and those are atrocities that we went through.

MR SIBEKO: What happened the AK47 you were using throughout your membership to the Self Defence Unit?

MR MAJIKI: My AK47, there was a campaign that was launched at the location, "A Gun-free South Africa", something to that effect. There was a big trunk that was put in a stadium and that's where I took my AK47 in.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions for the witness.

ADV SANDI: Mr Majiki, when was the Mshayazafe incident?

MR MAJIKI: This Mshayazafe incident, I don't quite remember the month, as to which month it was but it was on a Tuesday.

ADV SANDI: Which year was this?

MR MAJIKI: If I'm not mistaken the year was early 19 ...(inaudible - end of tape)

ADV SANDI: And the Mazibuko incident, what was that?

MR MAJIKI: The Mazibuko incident took place in December of 1993, if I am not mistaken.

ADV SANDI: You also mentioned that you had a clash with the Khumalo gang, did anyone get killed or injured in that incident?

MR MAJIKI: I really don't know if they were fully conversant with the use of firearms, the Khumalo gang that is. Once they shoot you and pretend as if you are, and fall on the ground and pretend as if you are dead, they will just pass, they would not inspect as to whether you have died or what happened.

ADV SANDI: Did you kill or injure any member of the Khumalo gang?

MR MAJIKI: There was no way of revenging to the Khumalo gang because at all times they were under the supervision of the police and the care of the police.

ADV SANDI: So you never really had a fight, you had no contact with the Khumalo gang, is that what you are saying?

MR MAJIKI: You see the usual thing that will be done by that gang, they will harass the community and we will not be in a position of fighting back because they were always under the care of the police.

ADV SANDI: When was that, are you able to remember the year and the month if possible?

MR MAJIKI: If I am not mistaken and my memory serves me correct, I will think it was early 1993 or late 1992, just around that time. I do not quite remember the day and the month in which this took place.

ADV SANDI: Would it be a clear understanding of your testimony, that you are making this application because you are assuming that some people may have been killed or injured as the result of your actions whilst you were a member of the SDUs?

MR MAJIKI: I am applying for amnesty because I know that maybe there are people who got injured or died. This is the reason why I am applying for amnesty.

ADV SANDI: But you do not know who those people are, no so, Mr Majiki?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, I may not know or I do not know as to who those people were or are because we were fighting each other at a distance, insomuch that it would not have been easy for me to identify as to who I shot or who I injured or killed. So I am not in a position to say that I know who I killed or I injured.

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to think that from what you have said you would not even be able to estimate the number of such people, people who got injured, people who got killed as a result of your actions?

MR MAJIKI: I am also not in a position to estimate the amount because we had so little time at our disposal, we could not tell as to how many we shot or injured. I don't know, I cannot even estimate.

ADV SANDI: When did you become a member of the SDUs, were you a member right from the beginning, right from the inception of SDUs up to the end?

MR MAJIKI: At its inception, yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Majiki. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Majiki, I want to come back to the very first incident, the photo incident.

MR MAJIKI: May you please repeat your question.

ADV GCABASHE: I want to come back to the photo incident. I wasn't too clear from your evidence, as to who had disappeared you know, after that shooting. Had the person who had been shot disappeared when you came back?

MR MAJIKI: The person who disappeared is the one who got shot or who was shot.

ADV GCABASHE: Now that person you had identified in the photograph, that's right yes?

MR MAJIKI: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Did that person live in the house that you had gone to investigate? You know, the house in your area, did he live there or was he somebody who simply came in and out every now and again, he just frequented the place?

MR MAJIKI: I think they will go there to drink at that house.

ADV GCABASHE: So you aren't able to identify that particular person and say ...(Zulu). You don't really know who he was?

MR MAJIKI: No, I don't know the person.

ADV GCABASHE: What about the residents of that house, who were they? You said you knew everybody in Lusaka-A, whose house was that?

MR MAJIKI: It was Khumalo's house.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Majiki. Thank you, Chair.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just one thing, just about the photograph. Is there anything else that you saw on this photograph? You say you saw a crowd of people with red bands and this gentleman, this person you've just been referring to was one of them, is there anything else that you saw on this photograph?

MR MAJIKI: What appeared on that photograph, those people had on the red headbands and the T-shirts of their organisation and the weapons in their hands, which fully described that they belonged to which organisation.

One would easily identify that really indeed this is an Inkatha member. They formed a front line, all of them.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any particular person or persons who were known to you on this photograph?

MR MAJIKI: Please repeat the last part of your question.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any particular person or persons who were known to you in that photograph?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, on that photograph there were people that I knew facially, although I did not know their names. I just knew them from sight but I did not know their details or their names as such.

ADV SANDI: Did your comrades identify any people they knew from this picture?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, that's correct.

ADV SANDI: Was any decision taken as to what was going to be done to such people?

MR MAJIKI: The decision that was taken was that people who were not part of that organisation should leave and go to reside with the rest of their fellow members. In other words they should join the group of people that they belonged to, one particular organisation.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Majiki. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

You said that this incident with the photographs happened on a Wednesday, are you able to give us a better indication about the date?

MR MAJIKI: It was 1993. I don't remember the month neither do I remember the date. That was a war situation. I don't think I will be in a position to remember all the fine details.

CHAIRPERSON: The house of Khumalo, that was in Lusaka-A, was it?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person that you had apprehended and who was apparently shot with the AK47, he was found in a house still in Lusaka-A.

MR MAJIKI: What happened, when we got inside the house they fled, they ran away, the people who were in the house. We met him or we captured him at Ngaki Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that still in Lusaka-A?

MR MAJIKI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that person definitely wounded in that incident?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, for the fact that he disappeared subsequently, it was so obvious and apparent that he definitely got wounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Then just one final thing. When you were shooting at these people that were involved in the fight with you, were you shooting with the intention to kill?

MR MAJIKI: I would not say so, that it was with an intention to kill but because this was a war situation we were in a fight, we were fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: No but when you were firing your AK47 rifle, were you shooting in the direction of the people that you were fighting with?

MR MAJIKI: Because we were not trained professionally with the usage of firearms, you would shoot. As to whether the firearm is pointing on top or at the side or wherever, you will shoot as long as you will have pulled the trigger and you will hide and run away. That's what used to happen since we were not professionally trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but now in doing that, what was your aim, was your aim to at least shoot them to wound them and if necessary to kill them?

MR MAJIKI: Because we were not very close, the two groups were not close, I think I would say we were just scaring them away but as they were shooting at our group they were not playing, they were shooting to kill and we would have to do the same in return.

I will say initially we will be doing this to scare them off but eventually we will have to shoot to kill as they were doing the same with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: A few aspects, Mr Chairman.

Mr Majiki, you knew at the time that the weapon you were carrying is either deadly, a person could die or a person could get injured, is that so?

MR MAJIKI: A firearm is a unique thing, you will not claim to say you are decorating the firearm, it's a deadly weapon. I knew that fact at the time.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Majiki, training or no training, once you fire a shot and that bullet hits that person, either that person is going to die or is going to get injured, is that so?

MR MAJIKI: Yes, that is true, that's a fact.

MR SIBEKO: Thanks, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Majiki, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to adjourn for 15 minutes, we'll reconvene in 15 minutes time.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, do you want to deal with this question around the request of Mr Msizi at this stage?

ADV STEENKAMP ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: Thank you, yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I will be as brief as possible. Mr Chairman, I would like to ask if possible that the document of the Inkatha Freedom Party, signed by a Mr A Msizi be marked Exhibit A.

I would also ask your permission to hand in a document marked Exhibit B being the sworn statement of Arnold Huysamen, with your permission, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, this statement is in Afrikaans, I will just summarise quickly what the statement is saying. This statement was taken on my instructions and on my initiative.

This statement is of Mr Huysamen who is a Captain and also was a station commander in the East Rand and in Thokoza during the early '90's to 1995, which is the area which this Panel is covering now in these amnesty hearings.

According to this statement, Mr Chairman, between 60 and 100 people were killed at least on a monthly basis and according to this statement it was at that stage even totally impossible to identify any of these victims. No case dockets could be traced, no inquest records could be traced at all. According to the statement the violence was at that stage, as it occurred then, was the highest in the land. This is basically the statement of Mr Huysamen.

Why I'm handing this in, Mr Chairman, is to show that even the police could not identify the victims. As far as the reasonable steps that were taken as was requested by Mr Msizi, just to indicate the following: there was a newspaper ad that was placed in the mainstream newspapers. I don't have the exact dates, Mr Chairman, but I would suggest that it was at least a month before the hearing, which I also would like to suggest is at least the reasonable time for this to be done, whereby victims were invited to attend the hearing, the details of the amnesty applicants' applications were indicated on the ad, the dates of the incident or more or less the dates we have in our possession was also indicated.

After that there was a special meeting called by the Amnesty Committee's Investigating Unit here in Johannesburg, which happened two and a half weeks back, where victims were also invited via the radio station and where I can just indicate that not a single victim attended that as well.

A second radio ad was placed again, whereby people were invited and specifically the victims were invited to attend the amnesty hearing. To my knowledge not a single victim has attended. Last Friday, on the 20th of November, a special meeting was convened by Mr Msizi, I suppose it's the same Mr Msizi of the Inkatha Freedom Party, whereby I myself was present as well as one of my other colleagues, Ms Patel, as well as certain members of the Investigation Unit of Gauteng.

The position was stated again to Mr Msizi, that the problem we're facing here is that not a single amnesty applicant was able to indicate in his application, the written application, any identity of any of the victims.

It's also my contention, Mr Chairman, that even as it stands now not a single applicant who has testified so far could not even identify any individual or victim. This position was actually agreed and the problem was understood by Mr Msizi. He said that, or he indicated by then that he would probably make a suggestion on behalf of possible victims.

Now if you look at his letter he is also referring to so-called, he suspects that certain people were victims. He's also talking about possible victims. He also indicated to us then, and I'm sorry to say it because he's not present here, but he was fully aware, was made fully aware of the difficulty in tracing specific victims.

We indicated that we do have certain HRV or Human Rights Violations victims statement but they could not be connected to any of the incidents that were related in the amnesty applications.

I can also furthermore state that the Investigation Unit of the Amnesty Committee even went so far as by again interviewing specific applicants to get more detail from them. No information could submitted by these applicants. Further particulars were also asked, not only by myself but also by the analyst who prepared these applications. Further information was asked specifically from the ANC office who had the similar problem as we had to obtain any information of any victims.

Then I can just - it's basically my final submission, Mr Chairman, that I'm of the contention that all the reasonable steps were taken in order to secure any information regarding the victims. I was also informed by the Investigators that a lot of these attacks happened at night and even Mr Msizi consented that the only people, the only way that these people could be identified as so-called Inkatha members, was the fact that they were wearing red bandannas. We don't even know - we could factually not confirm whether or not they actually were Inkatha members.

No case docket could be traced at all, no inquest records could be traced. I spoke to the investigator himself and if needs be I will call him as a witness. He advised me yesterday that he went personally through all the inquest documents that were available in Thokoza in different police stations and no information could be taken from those inquest records as it stands.

I can just state that yes, we did get certain paper clippings from that date but even in the paper clippings from that date, Mr Chairman, no identity of any victims were indicated even in those newspapers at that time. It's basically my contention, Mr Chairman, that all reasonable steps were taken to locate and identify these victims in order to make sure that they are attending and made them aware of their right to be here and oppose the applications.

If we also look at the document of Mr Msizi, Mr Chairman, he's basically indicating there also that he is opposing the applications. I'm not quite sure on which grounds he is opposing it but to be fair to Mr Msizi, he also indicated at the meeting we had, that he was of the view that they are going to oppose the applications. I indicated to him that he is more than welcome to attend and make further submissions.

The one thing I can say, I have indicated to him and I also made arrangements, that he must be placed in possession of all the documents I have in my possession because that is his right. I see in his letter he is saying that he didn't have the information, but certain steps were taken to make sure he has the information. So I'm not quite sure what the position of Mr Msizi is. He didn't contact me at all so far. I'm not quite sure where he is or what the position is, but as far as the victims' identities and the steps that were taken, Mr Chairman, I'm of the view that as it was stipulated in the Act, all reasonable steps were taken to identify these victims. That's what I have to say about this incident, Mr Chairman, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Steenkamp, I'll just talk to the Chairman about something.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp. Mr Sibeko, I don't know if you want to say anything about this particular issue.

MR SIBEKO ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: Mr Chairman, I would concur with my learned friend and further state that inasfar as the contents of the letter goes, the impression that I have is that Mr Msizi would want to bring this application in his capacity as a member or a leader of the Party and yet what confuses me is that to my knowledge the said Party, that is the IFP, doesn't recognise this process, which makes it a further problem.

However, all the reasons that have been stated by my learned, I am in full agreement and I also request that such a request be dismissed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well there is no formal application before us, but the letter Exhibit A was brought to our attention and for that reason we had requested Advocate Steenkamp, the Leader of Evidence at this hearing, to put on record what the situation was concerning interested parties, particularly possible victims of the conduct which forms the subject matter of the hearing. He has placed that on record. He has placed on record the steps that were taken in order to identify and notify any possible victim of the hearings and to make it possible for such persons to attend.

It appears that on the applications that have been submitted to the Amnesty Committee, no victims have been particularly identified. We have heard evidence about the nature of this conflict and it appears to have been a situation where the particular community was subjected to an on-going situation of violent conflict, resulting in substantial loss of life and damage to property. The numbers of people who had lost their lives in this unfortunate situation have been placed before us. Through some of the evidence thusfar, a figure of approximately 3 to 4 000 deaths were mentioned in the Katorus area, which includes Thokoza, where the specific applications that we are hearing emanate from.

The statement Exhibit B which was placed before us from Mr Huysamen indicates that something of the region of the order of 60 to 100 people were killed per month in this particular area. And it appears that even the authorities have not been able to properly identify those people that lost their lives in this conflict.

Advocate Steenkamp has also indicated that various steps were taken to advertise first of all, the fact that these applications that we are hearing have been submitted to the Amnesty Committee and the fact that they would be heard, via the radio, via newspaper advertisements and various attempts to convene meetings where interested parties could attend and where provision could be made for them to participate in these proceedings.

It therefore is clear to us that at least at this stage there are not identified or identifiable victims or interested parties who ought to have been notified of this hearing, who have not been notified. And that therefore there is no basis at this stage for us to conclude that these proceedings should not continue in order to provide for an opportunity for interested parties to participate.

Of course the position is that if any victims become identified in the course of the hearing of course, the necessary would be taken to notify those parties and to create an opportunity for them to participate in the hearing.

It appears also as if there was a discussion with Mr Msizi, who is the author of the letter Exhibit A, which was placed before us. It appears as if the officials of the Committee have informed him of the situation. We have been advised by Advocate Steenkamp that he appeared to have understood that situation. Importantly, it appears as if he is well aware of these proceedings and should he be an interested party of course, he has got every right to attend and participate to the extent that it is authorised.

So therefore in the circumstances, we are not persuaded that there is any basis at this stage to discontinue these proceedings. These remarks are simply made in order to address the letter, Exhibit A and it is not to be seen as a ruling on a formal application for a postponement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAIRPERSON: I assume that we are proceeding to the next applicant. Who is that? Mr Sibeko, can you just put that on record.

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant, Mr Chairman, is Mr Veli Nhlapo.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt again. His application appears on page 56, in the document called Lusaka-B, not Lusaka-A this time, Lusaka-B, page 56. His application number is 7259/97, for the record. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, could you give us your full names please?

VELI NHLAPO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Nhlapo, in the sections that we have in Thokoza, where do you actually stay?

MR NHLAPO: I reside at Lusaka-A.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you are applying for amnesty for being a member of the SDU during the times of violence?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I confirm that.

MR SIBEKO: Do you further confirm that at the time of your membership of the Self Defence Units, you were firstly under the command of Mfinos and later on under the command of Mosa Msimango?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Did you hear the testimony given by the first applicant, Mr Majiki?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I heard the testimony.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you were in the same unit as Mr Majiki?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you further confirm everything that was said by Mr Majiki inasfar as it relates to you?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Mr Majiki testified to the effect that there was an incident where photographs were given over to them and some people were identified as members of the IFP and were also staying in the same section as yourself, do you know anything about that incident?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about that incident.

MR NHLAPO: Insofar as the problem that we had at Ngaki, I was called by one of our comrades, Xholile, I cannot quite recall where I was coming from that day but there was one IFP man who had been apprehended at Ngaki. After I received the information I rushed for my firearm.

I went to Ngaki and I walked past where he was standing but there were no people, they had fled. I finally went to Ngaki where I found our comrades fighting this big man. He was too strong, he could have beaten them if they were not using firearms.

I met one of the guys whom I knew. When I looked at the photographs I could identify one person who was standing in the photo with one of the persons who had just been apprehended. This person was very strong. I then asked as to what was happening: "Is this the person who is in the photo"? I asked. And on looking at the photo I confirmed that it was the person, and it then came to my mind that this must be the person who tried to shoot and kill me. He is trying to struggle himself free of us and I ...(intervention)

MR SIBEKO: Before you proceed, Mr Nhlapo, what type of a firearm are you referring to here?

MR NHLAPO: It was an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just stop you there. I'm sorry, I lost you somewhere, Mr Nhlapo. You came to Ngaki Street and found your comrades arguing with a big man. You then looked at the photographs and recognised another person or the same person? I'm not sure that I understood you there. You recognised somebody in the photographs, was it the person standing in front of you, the big man, or somebody totally different?

MR NHLAPO: The person who was in the photograph, if I still remember very well, there were three photographs that were shown to me. The one photograph showed me the one photo in which the person we had apprehended was in and on looking at the photo I also realised that there was this other person who tried to shoot at us. At the time I was with another boy called Bafana. And the one who had just been apprehended at Ngaki was with the one who attempted to shoot us at Khumalo.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you stop right there? This other person was not in your company at the time, you simply recognised him but he wasn't physically there?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, he was not physically there, he was just appearing in the photo.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, continue.

MR NHLAPO: And after I shot this person the comrades fled and I remained behind alone, that's when the Stability Unit appeared and I ran away. I ran up Ngaki Street and before I came to Chicken Licken, I came across yet another Stability Unit and I shot at them so that they can give way. That's when I disappeared. I don't know whether the man I shot died or whether he was taken by the Stability Unit, I just remember shooting him and fleeing.

MR SIBEKO: When you left him and I am under the impression that immediately after you shot at him you could see whether he was or he had minor injuries or he was in a very serious condition, what would you say?

MR NHLAPO: I would say he was badly injured because I shot him. I remember when I was fighting the Stability Unit, it was fully loaded, my gun was fully loaded and when I was shooting at the Stability Unit I think I must have spent 12 bullets.

MR SIBEKO: At the time of this incident, were you under the command of Mfinos or Mosa Msimango?

MR NHLAPO: My commander was Mfinos at the time.

MR SIBEKO: The AK47 you are referring to, where did you get it?

MR NHLAPO: I got the AK from my commander, Mfinos.

MR SIBEKO: Continue, Mr Nhlapo.

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I got this AK from my commander, Mfinos, even though I don't know where he got it. Yes, he used to command us.

I remember one day on our way to Mazibuko there was this group of people who were standing further up, busy shooting. We went to Mazibuko and on arrival there was seemingly an Inkatha meeting. We wanted to disrupt that meeting because we knew what the agenda was.

We went further up and came across some of our comrades from Slovo. These are the people that helped us so that we went up together. On arriving we managed to disrupt the meeting and gunshots were fired. That's how the fighting began.

We came back hungry and tired. Before we arrived

at our places, gunshots erupted once more. We then rushed back and we learnt and discovered that one of our comrades whose name is Baba, had just been shot. He did not die instantly.

When we got into the area we were so angry that we decided to attack them right in the hostel. That is what happened that day insofar as my being commanded by Mfinos is concerned.

MR SIBEKO: When you arrived at the hostel, did you enter the premises of the hostel and shoot at anybody?

MR NHLAPO: No, we did not get into the hostel. We walked up Ntagani Street or Madondo Street. There was a Stability Unit further up the street and therefore we had to go back. We did not get into the hostel, therefore we went back without having fired a single shot.

MR SIBEKO: Now you confirmed earlier on that you were in the same unit with Mr Majiki and you confirmed everything that he said inasfar as it related to you. My question is, were you always in possession of the said AK47 at the times when you went to attack or defend or whatever, were you always in possession of the firearm and did you use it?

MR NHLAPO: I would say the firearm was like my girlfriend, I would take it to bed with me, I would put it under my pillow. I always had to be ready in case there is a war erupting, it had to be near.

MR SIBEKO: I therefore take it that you used it. If so, are you in a position to say whether there are people you killed or you injured, except for the one that you saw in the photograph?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, the gun has been killing a lot of people, even though I cannot say exactly who it was killing, but yes, it had killed a lot of people. I was using it. There are many Inkatha people I have shot, not knowing their identity. Yes, I've been shooting a lot of them. Yes, the gun has been killing a lot of people.

MR SIBEKO: So I take it that you are certain that you killed those people?

MR NHLAPO: Even though I cannot be sure, but yes, I was shooting with an intention to kill, I was not playing. Whether they were injured or they died I'm not sure. I know I must have killed them.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident except for those you have already mentioned and those that have been mentioned by Mr Majiki, that you were involved in?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, there are some other incidents. There is the one incident that happened at Khumalo Street when a journalist died. That is where we went right into the hostel. I think that was our last fight. I was present, yes, we killed people.

There is also another incident where we were requested by the comrades from Mandela to go and give them a hand because their comrades were not in, they were actually in short supply and they were facing the hostel. They were harassed by the police. The police station at Thokoza was not working. I don't think it was working at the time and therefore they requested us to come and assist them because Inkatha used to come from home, from their rural areas to assist their brothers in the hostel, therefore we could not sit back whilst our people were dying.

MR SIBEKO: ...(inaudible) that you have just referred to, what is the name of that hostel?

MR NHLAPO: I think there is one called Mshayazafe, that is if I'm not mistaken. That is the hostel that is in the middle section. There is also another name. I've just forgotten the name. That is the hostel that is further down, nearer to our section. I am not quite sure, I cannot differentiate between the hostels in terms of names.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you would want to tell us about?

MR NHLAPO: As I have just explained, the one incident that I did not hear being testified about is the Mandela incident. Apart from that I don't think there are any other incidents that I still remember because the Mandela incident happened at the time when the situation was explosive. There was also the KwaZulu Police using horses to patrol the area. I didn't personally see them, I just heard that they were patrolling the area on horseback.

MR SIBEKO: Okay, let us leave that one out because you didn't see those horseback police. What I'm interested in is the incident wherein you were involved and fired a shot towards anybody.

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I am involved in the Mandela incident, the Mshayazafe incident, as well as the Mazibuko incident. These are the incidents where I was highly involved in.

MR SIBEKO: ...(inaudible) that you were using?

MR NHLAPO: Honestly speaking, I was so - I ...(indistinct) and disturbed when I heard that the gun has disappeared while I was in prison. Apparently guns were collected whilst I was in prison. I don't know how it disappeared.

MR SIBEKO: Will you agree with me that the said AK47 was not your property, you got it from your commander and if your commander - even if it was handed over for whatever campaign, you didn't have to have any problem about it because it was not your property?

MR NHLAPO: Let me put it this way, I think the gun was mine, that is why I got so angry when it disappeared. I am the one who was using it to kill people. I don't know how it disappeared. I was told it was with the police, they were busy using it to investigate how many people it killed. I meant to hide or conceal the firearm myself.

MR SIBEKO: Thanks, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Just one thing that is not very clear to me. This was your firearm, Mr Nhlapo, your personal property?

MR NHLAPO: I received or obtained it from Mfinos, and when Mfinos left and when the SDUs came or this other unit came, I was using this firearm and therefore it was mine.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

I just want absolute clarity on one issue really. You are saying that you shot the big man who was fighting with your comrades at Ngaki Street, yes?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And you also shot one of the members of the ISU. As you were running away you came across them and you shot somebody there who you think was definitely badly injured.

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Then any other incidents of killings would under either Mshayazafe, Mazibuko or the Mandela incidents, there you can't identify who you may or may not have killed.

MR NHLAPO: I cannot point to anybody that I can with certainty say that I injured or killed but yes, we did shoot many people. We did shoot many people whose identities I don't know. I don't know their names but yes, we did shoot people and people died, people got injured. I don't know how many people died and how many got injured but yes, people died.

ADV GCABASHE: The last incident I'm not too clear about. Was the incident you related about the day you were on your way to Mazibuko, when the IFP were having a meeting there, was the meeting inside the hostel at Mazibuko? I was not too clear as to the incident itself, what happened, if people were shot. You did disrupt the meeting. Just go over that briefly for me.

MR NHLAPO: The meeting was not in the hostel, it was held at a street, the name of which I've forgotten. It was the street on the other side from Mazibuko. I think it's the third street. They had met at the gate of a certain household at one of their members.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, continue. And what then happened? Just go through that incident for me.

MR NHLAPO: As I have explained earlier on, when we arrived some of our comrades were there from Penduka or in Penduka, and they indicated to us where the people were. We therefore had to hide ourselves whilst approaching so that we could not be seen. That is when - as we proceed, that is when I decided that this meeting should be disrupted because I concluded that they were planning on killing us.

ADV GCABASHE: With that particular incident again you don't know if you actually shot anybody, this is if anybody was injured, you can't go into any detail as to you saw two or three people fall? You can't give us any detail on that?

MR NHLAPO: I would say I did shoot people because when I fired shots there were many of them but some of them, or should I say many of them fled. Some person may have tripped and fell. I would not know whether they were shot or they tripped and fell.

I'm not in the position to say whether I missed or what happened but yes, I was shooting towards their direction. I cannot be sure whether people died or got injured.

ADV GCABASHE: I know you haven't mentioned anything at all about the gangs, the Khumalo gang, Bad Boys gang, you were not involved in any incidents relating to those gangs?

MR NHLAPO: Insofar as the Khumalo gang is concerned, I was involved on the patrolling side. I did not got there to fight but Khumalo used to come to our area, shoot us and do whatever because he was always accompanied by the ISU and his house was also under guard, but I never went to attack his homestead.

Yes, I heard about these gangsters and Mugabe is seemingly the one who engineered the whole thing. He was raping people and robbing people of their possessions etc. I am the one who was involved when Mugabe was sought.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Nhlapo. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: This incident concerning the IFP meeting, when about did that take place?

MR NHLAPO: As I have explained I don't know the name of the street, but we were at Mazibuko, a third street up. I think it was quite a distance from us. I don't know the name of the street but it was the third street from where we were.

CHAIRPERSON: The question really is, at about when, when about did this incident take place?

MR NHLAPO: I don't know what time it was, I didn't have a watch. We didn't use watches when we were going out to war, we would not even know what day of the week it was. I would think it was Sunday. Maybe I would be mistaken and it would be on a Wednesday. Therefore really, we were not keeping track of time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, the intention is not really to get you to furnish us with the time and the day of the week. Can you give an idea as to the date when it happened, what month, what year possibly? Are you able to assist?

MR NHLAPO: I think if I recall very well, it could have been early 1993 or late 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you referred to the incident where the journalist was killed. That was the day when you went straight into the hostel. Now when did that incident happen?

MR NHLAPO: If I still remember very well it was not long after I was arrested, because I was arrested in 1994, January, and this incident happened in 1993. Even though I cannot remember exactly as to when in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: And the incident, the Mandela incident, when you went to assist the people in the Mandela section, when did that happen?

MR NHLAPO: This also happened in 1993, because at the time we were being commanded by Mosa. It happened in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, let me just ask you one final thing. Were you arrested, charged and convicted, sentenced, for any of these incidents that you referred to in your evidence?

MR NHLAPO: No, no, I was not arrested, not prosecuted, not sentenced. No, I did not.

ADV SANDI: You mean that was something which had nothing to do with SDUs?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Who will be the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Xholile Makhawula.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you just repeat that, Mr Sibeko, who is that?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Xholile Makhawula.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makhawula, can you just give us your full names?

XHOLILE MAKHAWULA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

You also applied for amnesty for your activities in the SDU, in the Lusaka-A section, is that correct?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, this is true.

MR SIBEKO: The incidents that have been mentioned by the two previous applicants, were you also involved?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, I was also involved.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm everything that has been said, inasfar as it relates to you?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, I do confirm.

MR SIBEKO: Now let us get this clear. Your involvement in these incidents, were you also carrying a firearm or an AK47 and did you at any stage pull the trigger to shoot at anybody?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, I used to carry an AK47 as well.

MR SIBEKO: In all the incidents that they have mentioned, will you be in a position to state whether you personally injured or killed anybody?

MR MAKHAWULA: No, I do not remember because I was never close to these people that we were shooting at.

MR SIBEKO: But you agree that it's possible that as a result of your shooting there could be a number of them who might have died or who were injured?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, it's possible although I don't know.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to the weapon that you were using?

MR MAKHAWULA: There came a period where all the weapons were collected and were brought to the stadium, that is where mine was left.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident besides these that you have already heard about that you'd want to tell us?

MR MAKHAWULA: No, there is none, I concur with what my colleagues have said.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chair.

ADV SANDI: Mr Makhawula, Mpaula, Makhawula?

MR MAKHAWULA: Makhawula that is.

ADV SANDI: I notice that in a reply to a question when you completed the application form, a question requiring that you give dates as to when the acts and offences you're applying for were committed, you say 1993. You were not involved in anything before 1993?

MR MAKHAWULA: In 1993 I participated in all the incidents or activities that went on in the location but prior to that, no.

ADV SANDI: These incidents which have been mentioned by the previous witnesses, the first one being Mshayazafe, Mazibuko, Madala(?) incident and an attack at the hostel, were you involved in all those incidents?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, particularly the hostel one.

ADV SANDI: You were involved in all of them?

MR MAKHAWULA: No, the last one that Veli explained about with regard to the hostel, I'm not too sure if it's Kataza or Shayazafe hostel, but Veli dwelled on that fact. I not too sure about the name, whether it's Kataza, but it was the very last one and that is where I took part.

ADV SANDI: Can you specify the exact incidents or attacks in which you were involved?

MR MAKHAWULA: The hostel attack, I was there and the Ngaki attack, I was there as well. As for the hostel attack, I was there but I did not get inside. We were outside guarding upon the ones who went inside the premises of the hostel.

ADV SANDI: But you were also armed with a firearm, not so?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, I was armed with a firearm.

ADV SANDI: Were any people killed as far as you know, in that incident? Not people from your side.

MR MAKHAWULA: I did not notice that day but the following day I read from the newspaper that there were people who were killed. Since I was outside the premises I could not have known that much information.

ADV SANDI: Is there any other incident in which you did not take part? Can you recall any specific incident where you did not participate?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, there are others that I did not take part in.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Makhawula. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: I just want to double-check, the incident, the hostel incident that you talk about, that's the one where the journalist was killed outside?

MR MAKHAWULA: Yes, that's the one.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None thanks, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Makhawula, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the next applicant Mr Feni?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, for now I haven't thoroughly consulted with Mr Feni. The arrangement that we made is that immediately after the three I will give my colleagues the chance to take over with other applications. So I therefore request that I be excused now.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, so the application of Mr Feni will stand down to ...

MR SIBEKO: It's correct so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then I think you are excused for the moment. What is the next application? Which one is it, what are his full names?

MR MOPEDI: Simphiwe Ndlovu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is just Simphiwe? Is it number 7074/97?

MR MOPEDI: 7074/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you just want to put yourself on record for Mr Ndlovu?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May name is Cavendish Mopedi and ...(indistinct) Mopedi Attorneys here in Alberton. I am appearing on behalf of Mr Simphiwe Ndlovu in this matter, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Mr Ndlovu, do you hear me?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names Simphiwe Ndlovu?

SIMPHIWE NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, over to you.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Ndlovu, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And further, you are a former member of the Self Defence Unit here in Thokoza, that is Lusaka-A?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: I want you to explain to this forum what actually prompted you to bring this application.

MR NDLOVU: I was prompted to seek amnesty because I was a member of the SDU that operated in Thokoza at the Lusaka section, because also I was involved in the shooting and the carrying of an illegal firearm.

MR MOPEDI: When did you become a member of the SDU?

MR NDLOVU: I joined the SDU in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Were you forced to join it?

MR NDLOVU: I joined out of my own volution.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, Mr Mopedi, do you then want us to amend 9(a) of the application, dates 1990 to May 1994? 9(a) - he joined in 1993, 9(a) speaks of activities between 1990 to 1994. I don't know whether you want that to be amended or what the position is.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, I'll verify it with my client.

In your application, Mr Ndlovu, it appears that you joined the SDU in 1990 until 10 May 1994, could you explain?

MR NDLOVU: I would say from 1990 we were still very young but yes, we were participating but by barricading the road and using petrol bombs, but in 1993 yes, I was now using a firearm.

MR MOPEDI: You became a full member in 1993, that is when you started to carry a weapon, is that what you are implying?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Could you proceed in your own words and tell this forum the specific actions that you have done.

MR NDLOVU: I would say at joining the SDUs in 1993 guns were available in abundance, it was not the same as when it was formed, where streets had to be barricaded. We now had information as to how we were being attacked and how to protect ourselves, and therefore we would launch an attack before they attacked us. There were so many things that were happening between the years 1993 and 1994, things in which I was involved but I was involved in mainly two things.

MR MOPEDI: Who was your commander?

MR NDLOVU: When I arrived my commander was Sipho Ngubane and Mosa Msimango.

MR MOPEDI: The testimony or the evidence before this forum is at one stage Mfinos was also a commander, do you know Mfinos?

MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know him.

MR MOPEDI: Sipho Ngubane, when was he a commander? Could you clearly set out the period when he was a commander?

MR NDLOVU: He took over from Mfinos, he was Mosa's deputy.

MR MOPEDI: If I understand you properly, Sipho Ngubane was a deputy of Mosa Msimango?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct, he was his deputy but yes, he also issued out orders.

MR MOPEDI: Right, let's go to specific incidents, the acts that you have committed.

MR NDLOVU: What I still remember is that the year was 1993 and there was this Johannesburg IFP meeting of the IFP. I was sitting with people like Aubrey Maile, Sipho Mbatha and Tshabalala Sipho and as we were sitting we heard that the IFP members were going out to a rally. We then had a discussion with Sipho and indicated that we should wait for them on their way back and shoot them at Khumalo Street on their way to the hostel, but then we did not know what time they were coming back.

We then sent people like Aubrey and Tulani to go and investigate the route, make sure that there were no police and ISU on the route. Yes, they came back and they told us everything is okay. There were a handful of police and then Sipho and myself took two AK47s which were fully loaded and we put them in our sweater jackets.

We knew which routes to take in the townships and we took our short cuts to Khumalo Street and we arrived at the said house. We positioned ourselves at a house that had been burnt down, awaiting all the taxis that were coming so that we could see them clearly as they were arriving.

We spent about five minutes seeing these mini-buses arriving. We ignored the first mini-bus that came but we shot at the second mini-bus that was full of passengers. Later on we retreated, went back to our section.

MR MOPEDI: The kombi, how did you know that the kombi belonged to IFP members?

MR NDLOVU: The taxis in the township were now using different routes. ANC or taxis belonging to ANC areas were using Polla Park and those areas and therefore it was well-known that any taxi that was taking the Khumalo road should be an IFP taxi.

MR MOPEDI: So if I understand you properly you shot people there?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Did you kill anyone in that particular incident?

MR NDLOVU: I would not be sure, but the car that we fired at just grounded to a halt, it didn't move further until police came.

MR MOPEDI: So it is possible that someone might have been killed?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And you say you were with Sipho Tshabalala?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Did he also shoot?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, he did fire shots.

MR MOPEDI: If I may find out from you, why was it necessary for you to go there and to shoot those people of Inkatha?

MR NDLOVU: It was necessary because we knew that each time they came back from the rally they would not go straight to the hostel, they would just go around shooting randomly. To stop them from doing that we had to shoot them fist and if we had done that there would be soldiers around and they would not be able to attack us.

MR MOPEDI: And the occupants of this kombi that you referred to, do you know who were the occupants?

MR NDLOVU: No, I just knew they are Umzwebe(?).

MR MOPEDI: So if it is possible that you might have killed somebody, it means that you won't be in the position to tell this forum who you killed?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I would not be in the position to tell the Committee that there was somebody that died and if there is I would not deny that.

MR MOPEDI: Alright, let us proceed. Are there any other further incidents?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, there is this Dube incident in which I was involved. It so happened that some of our comrades from Thambo section as well as Slovo section, these comrades were attacked.

It was on a Friday evening and we received information early the following morning that some of our comrades had died, about five of them. They were shot by the people from the hostel. Then Sipho and myself were very close friends and we decided to go and see the commander from that other section. He then explained to us that these comrades were ...(indistinct) but they were just attacked by people.

We then decided that we should go and avenge the death of our comrades. Then it happened that on Saturday afternoon we came together and planned as to which areas or streets and houses should be attacked. And we came up with five streets which had to be attacked and these streets included Khumalo, Umdagane, Njati, Shabango and Dube.

I then ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can you just go a little slower, just a bit slower. Can you go back to the streets, the streets that you decided on?

MR NDLOVU: Khumalo, Umdagane, Njati, Shabango and Dube.

We then went back to our section. We brought a few comrades together and briefed on the meeting that we have already had and informed them that we are going to do something but we will get the details on Sunday.

Sipho then went back to the other side and met with the people. We decided and discussed on how we should group. He then came back on Sunday where he found us at a house of one of the Committee of Seven. When he arrived on Sunday evening we were at a house of one of the Committee of Seven members.

He then told us that the attack was going to take place on Monday morning and therefore we should all sleep together in one place so that we should not be late. So that we should all go together to the other comrades in the other section.

People who were in charge of firearms brought all the firearms and we went to Sipho's place to spend the evening with our guns. We woke up, left the following day at half past three. There were people who were moving ahead of us to ascertain the safety of our route.

These people came back at round about four and we left at 4 o'clock, went to Thambo section where we found the commander and his comrades waiting for us. We decided to wait until there was little light seeing that it was the early hours of the morning, after dawn. We were concerned that we might injure one another in the dark seeing that we were not quite familiar with one another.

We were in groups. In my group I had the company on Monwabisi and Montle Motaung, Vusi, as well as Eddie Kambule and Monday who came from Thambo section. We decided to have a short briefing saying that we should just go and attack to make sure that they do not continue killing our people.

The plan was that we were going to wait for the Khumalo group to hit first and we would follow suite. We went to this house and we spent some time there. This house had some backyard shacks. We went into the homestead. The people in the main house did not see us. We spent about two minutes waiting for the first attack to be launched and after some time, realising that the attack was not being launched, we decided to know at the door. There was a response and we realised that there were people in the house. We got in, started shooting and started breaking things up, or breaking things down.

We retreated to Khatelhong which was the nearest place to retreat to. The other group came back from their attack at Khumalo Street and later on there were police. These are the incidents to which I can account.

MR MOPEDI: Were people killed in that shooting?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, some people died but it could not be clearly explained as to whether people died in Dube or how many died in Dube. The report was just that people died, three or so but we didn't have the details.

MR MOPEDI: You don't know who those people were? I'm referring to these people, the three people that you say were killed.

MR NDLOVU: We just know that they are members of the IFP, we don't know their identities.

MR MOPEDI: Can you say precisely that you killed someone on that particular day or do you think that you killed someone because you also shot on that day?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, it's possible I might have killed someone because I too was shooting. Maybe if I was well-trained in the use of a firearm, I could with certainty say that yes, I did kill someone. But then in this case I'm just not in the position to say with certainty.

MR MOPEDI: And Dube Street - this house in Dube Street, is it also situated in Lusaka-A?

MR NDLOVU: Dube Street is in Thambo section.

MR MOPEDI: The AK47 that you were using, where did you get that AK47?

MR NDLOVU: This was a section AK47 because each section had its own firearms, so I was using one of those.

MR MOPEDI: What happened to it eventually?

MR NDLOVU: This was confiscated by the soldiers when they conducted a raid. They discovered it where I had concealed it.

MR MOPEDI: So it was taken by the soldiers?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: The first incident when you shot at a kombi, who else were you apart from, you say you were with Sipho Tshabalala, who else?

MR NDLOVU: Some of the people in our company were the ones who were watching or taking care of safety for us in the area, to make sure that there are no police around. That was Aubrey Maile and Tulani Mbatha.

MR MOPEDI: Aubrey Maile?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that's Aubrey Maile and Tulani Mbatha.

MR MOPEDI: Why was it necessary to attack the house in Dube Street?

MR NDLOVU: The attack on that day was prompted by the fact that we lost five of our members the previous Friday and therefore it was necessary for us to avenge their death so that they could learn from this experience that we too can fight back, we are not happy about this.

MR MOPEDI: And what kind of firearm were you using?

MR NDLOVU: When we went to Dube I was carrying an AK47 and when we arrived at the house one of our colleagues or friends was carrying an R4 and he requested that I give him the AK47 because he was not used to the R4. I wanted to experiment with this R4 and then we exchanged these firearms.

MR MOPEDI: So in other words it means that at one stage you were using an R4?

MR NDLOVU: This R4 was not from our section. I have indicated that when we met these comrades from the other section they had their own collection of weaponry. They had R5 etc. We only exchanged the use of this firearm at the time of the attack, it was not our section weapon. I only used it for that day.

MR MOPEDI: Now lastly if I may ask, who was actually giving you some commands?

MR NDLOVU: Our commander, as I have indicated that we had Sipho Ngubane but then the overall commander was Mosa Msimango.

MR MOPEDI: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Steenkamp, questions?

MR MOPEDI: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ndlovu, at this house you attacked at Dube Street, you do not know the address?

MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know the address because some of the houses had already been burnt at Dube Street. The house that we attacked was also burnt like many others, therefore I cannot remember the address.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these attacks all in 1993?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for lunch till 2 o'clock.

ADV STEENKAMP: The next applicant is Mr Ndlovu. His application appears on page 83 of the bundle called Lusaka-A, page 83. Mr Simphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, won't you stand please? Give us your full names please?

SIMPHIWE GODFREY NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, still you? Okay.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Ndlovu, you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That's right.

MR MOPEDI: And you were also a member of the SDU, Thokoza?

MR MOPEDI: That is for Lusaka-A?

MR NDLOVU: That is right.

MR MOPEDI: And how old were you - first before I come to that question, when did you join the SDU?

MR NDLOVU: Early 1993.

MR MOPEDI: So you joined early 1993?

MR NDLOVU: That's right.

MR MOPEDI: I see in your claim form you say that you joined in 1990 up to May the 10th, 1994, could you explain the discrepancy?

MR NDLOVU: During the time when the application forms were being filled the person who was helping us with this did not have detailed information. So what he knows is that the amnesty will cover from 1990 until 1994. So that's the reason maybe why ...(indistinct) in 1990. But I personally started in SDU during 1993.

MR MOPEDI: You say you joined in 1993?

MR NDLOVU: That's correct. How did you join, were you forced to join?

MR NDLOVU: No, I was not forced.

MR MOPEDI: Who was your commander?

MR NDLOVU: Our commander was Mosa Msimango.

MR MOPEDI: Could you explain to this forum the role that you have played, the active role that you have played.

MR NDLOVU: Okay. Due to the reason that I was young and the codes of conduct stated very well that a person should be 18 in order to join the SDU, I was given my task to make sure that every time when the people who were over 18 which were regarded as the battalion, every time they launch an attack or every time ..(indistinct) they will defend I should go first and then I have to make sure that there are no police around that area.

To make sure of that I was given a hand radio which I will communicate with them. Then there were languages which we could communicate in. For instance, if there were police around I could send a signal that, ...(indistinct) for instance Umdagane Street and the signal it's negative, that they don't have to go through Umdagane Street, maybe they have to change to another street. And my role was that and to make sure that the guns are safely stored and to clean them. That was my role.

MR MOPEDI: So were you not actively involved in the fighting itself?

MR NDLOVU: No, I was involved ...(NO RECORDING)

MR MOPEDI: If I understand you properly, you never pulled a trigger?

MR NDLOVU: No, I never pulled a trigger.

MR MOPEDI: So why are you applying for amnesty?

MR NDLOVU: The reason why I'm applying for amnesty is because when I knew the guns, where they were stored, I never called the police. And when my friends were about to make an attack or to defend, I knew it but I never told the police. So regarding to these days maybe that should be regarded as distracting the law. So I couldn't help the police, so that is why I am applying for amnesty.

MR MOPEDI: Were you ever given a firearm for you to use?

MR NDLOVU: No, I was not given a firearm to use, maybe I will be given a firearm to store it or I'll be given a firearm to clean it.

MR MOPEDI: So you were not given a firearm because you were under the age of 18, is that what you are saying?

MR NDLOVU: That's correct.

MR MOPEDI: Were you not - did you at any stage take part in, say in a specific incident where an attack was being launched?

MR NDLOVU: No, I didn't.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose there is no re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, you are excused, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MOPEDI: The next applicant will be Thulani Richard Mbatha, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just identify the next person again please.

MR MOPEDI: The next person will be Thulani Richard Mbatha, Mr Chairman.

ADV STEENKAMP: Page 61 of the same bundle, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, won't you stand please and give us your full names.

THULANI RICHARD MBATHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbatha, you are the applicant in this matter and you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that's true.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-A?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: If I may ask you, when did you join?

MR MBATHA: I would say early 1993.

MR MOPEDI: You joined early 1993. How old were you in 1993?

MR MBATHA: If I'm not mistaken I was 12 or 13.

MR MOPEDI: You were 12 or 13?

MR MBATHA: I was 12.

MR MOPEDI: Could you explain with reference to specific incidents what you did as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MBATHA: My duty as an SDU member was to clean the weapons or the firearms and we would - I was a pathfinder, we would pave a way for my colleagues prior to any attack. And there is no incident that I took part in.

MR MOPEDI: So in other words if I understand you correctly, you confirm what the last applicant, Simphiwe Godfrey told this forum?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I concur with what he has said.

MR MOPEDI: So you have the same duties as Simphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that's true.

MR MOPEDI: So you are now applying for amnesty?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose no re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.

AMNESTY HEARING

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Aubrey Matlema Maile.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, his application appears on page 281 of the same bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Which page number?

ADV STEENKAMP: 281, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand and give us your full names.

AUBREY MATLEMA MAILE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Maile, you are also an applicant in this matter and do you also confirm that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit for the area Lusaka-A?

MR MAILE: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: How old were you - before I come to that question, when did you join as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MAILE: It was early 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Were you forced to join?

MR MAILE: No.

MR MOPEDI: What were your duties?

MR MAILE: My duties were to clean the firearms, store them. I used to keep some of these firearms at my parents' home. And also to work a way finder was those colleagues that would come and launch an attack. Those were my duties.

MR MOPEDI: Alright, in short you confirm what Simphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu has told this hearing?

MR MAILE: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add on what you have told us?

MR MAILE: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed.

MR MAILE: There is one incident that has been mentioned by Simphiwe Ndlovu in which a taxi was attacked at the hostel gate. I was present. I am the one who went in front before him, to make sure that there were no police and I came back to give him the information to the effect that it was safe, we could then go. And then yes, we did go there. I think it was on the third circle at a street that is facing the hostel.

When we arrived there myself and Thulani had to make sure that we look out for the police and they were facing a direction towards the hostel. It was not long before we had arrived there, not more than five minutes. As we were looking around we heard gunshots after which Simphiwe and Sipho appeared fleeing.

As our duty to look out for the police, we continued doing that until we returned to our placed. That is the one role in which I partook.

MR MOPEDI: So on that day, did you make use of any firearm?

MR MAILE: I did not carry a firearm but Simphiwe and Sipho used to carry firearms.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Advocate Steenkamp?

MR MAILE: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume there would be no re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused, thank you very much.

MR MOPEDI: The next applicant will be Monwabisi Mhambi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhambi, will you please stand and give your full names.

MONWABISI EBENEZER MHAMBI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mhambi, you are the applicant in this matter and you were also a member of the Thokoza Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A section, is that correct?

MR MHAMBI: ...(no English translation)

MR MOPEDI: Do you remember the year?

MR MHAMBI: If I'm not mistaken it was in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Were you forced to join?

MR MHAMBI: That is not correct.

MR MOPEDI: What has actually prompted you to bring this application for amnesty?

MR MHAMBI: The reason why I made this application to the TRC is that when we were fighting here in Thokoza I was involved in certain things.

MR MOPEDI: Explain what are those things.

MR MHAMBI: I can explain it this way. From 1993, if I'm not mistaken one when we were patrolling we were in Givani Street, the corner of Givani and Ngaki. We were used to patrolling during those days we found that there was one man in the road and we thought that he was one of the people who were under the ISU or the IFP.

To try and explain more, when we stopped these men, there were five of them and we did not trust these men because they were coming from the police car. When they were coming towards us they put their hands in their jackets. We were then forced to hurry because we didn't trust what was inside those jackets. We were then forced to go and face them. We were forced to shoot first before they could shoot at us.

Fortunately or unfortunately the four of them managed to run away. This one man when he was trying to run away he ran towards Lusaka section where we found him in a shack. If I'm not mistaken it was number 1776 in the circle. I think it's the third circle from Ngaki to Mkwaie.

When he was trying to lock himself inside the shack unfortunately we were already inside. When he was trying to get out, the firearm was in my hand at that time, when he was trying to get out through the window he did not have a chance. I hit him with the first bullet. He tried to run away towards the gate. I think from the gate to where he fell, I think it's about three or four metres. He then fell and then other bullets followed from myself, Monwabisi.

The other thing, the people who were with me I do remember some of them but I don't remember others, it was myself, Thulani Mshlango. If I'm not mistaken, Thlonono and Nkosana was staying in Mabuya but he passed away now. But because there were many of us I can't remember all of us. Unfortunately I don't remember the dates. I don't remember the dates of the incidents or the time but what I can say is it was in the morning.

Secondly, I'm also applying - if I'm not mistaken, Simphiwe raised this issue about the Dube incident. I was also involved in that incident, when we were attacking there in the morning. I am not going to repeat what he has already said.

And other matters like the incident in Jazavu, in Mshayazafe, I think Mshayazafe is facing the dry cleaner of Osizweni then but it's not here now. When we were going to that area, when we were about to reach Mshayazafe, before we got there there was a house that we used to use as our shooting range. I think before the violence started the owner of the house purchased some bricks. We would take those bricks and pack from the corner of the house to the corner of the shack and then we would open a space so that we can put in a firearm that we were using at the time. Those are the things I do remember now. That is all for now.

MR MOPEDI: Okay, let us start with the first incident that you have referred us to, that is the people that you met in the street and where four of them managed to run away and you followed the one who ran to Lusaka section. Do you know the name of that person?

MR MHAMBI: If I remember well, if I'm not mistaken his name was Leviza but I don't know his surname.

MR MOPEDI: Was this person known to you before the incident itself?

MR MHAMBI: Please repeat that.

MR MOPEDI: I say, this person, the one that you followed to Lusaka section, was he known to you before the incident of that particular day?

MR MHAMBI: ...(no English translation)

MR MOPEDI: My question is, the person that you chased - I'll repeat it, the person that you chased to Lusaka section on that day, the one who tried to lock himself in a shack, was he known to you prior to the incident?

MR MHAMBI: I unfortunately Sir, I didn't know him but I used to see him.

MR MOPEDI: How did you manage to get his name or to know his name?

MR MHAMBI: What used to happen was that we would make investigations about a certain person but unfortunately concerning this person it was found that one of the people who were living in the same street as myself knew him. And in certain issues that used to happen outside some of the people used to see him. When I'm saying things that used to happen outside, I'm referring to when there was a function for the IFP. He would be there and he would take part to show that he was a member of the IFP.

MR MOPEDI: Did you have this information before the incident itself or you managed to accumulate this information after the incident itself?

MR MHAMBI: As I've already said, when we were patrolling we came across five men and this shows that I didn't go to him because I knew him or I did not know him but we wanted to know who were there and what was the connection between themselves and the ISU.

MR MOPEDI: Before you started to attack these people, have you verified first to make sure that they were indeed the members of Inkatha Freedom Party or Inkatha in short?

MR MHAMBI: I would put it this way to explain. What used to happen in Thokoza - to add more to what other people have already said, it was not necessary sometimes to get a letter to confirm that a certain person is a member of Inkatha Freedom Party.

What would happen Sir, is this. When we were using Khumalo Street - during the day of this incident we were in our bases and while we were still patrolling we would hear that there would be people who would be jumped off by the Stability Unit in the corner. Fortunately concerning this one, his jacket, the jacket that he was wearing, in the left-hand side of his jacket he had something on his jacket showing that he was with a certain group because a certain group would wear particular clothes so that you could see each other or identify each other so that you cannot attack each other. As the people were not trained we used to wear certain clothes to identify ourselves, prevent attacking ourselves.

MR MOPEDI: So if I understand you very well you say that you identified those people by the clothes they were wearing?

MR MHAMBI: Yes, Sir.

MR MOPEDI: And have you established eventually whether they were members of IFP?

MR MHAMBI: When, after we attacked them?

MR MHAMBI: That's correct.

MR MHAMBI: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And this person that you have told that you shot him, do you know whether he died or not or was only injured?

MR MHAMBI: He died.

MR MOPEDI: And the incident that occurred at Dube Street, the house, all what you say about the incident is that you are confirming what Simphiwe Ndlovu told this hearing?

MR MHAMBI: Please repeat your question.

MR MOPEDI: I'm referring to the second incident, the incident at Dube, that is in Dube Street, the house where you shot people. You don't have anything to add to that incident, you only confirm what Simphiwe Ndlovu, I mean Simphiwe Ndlovu's version?

MR MHAMBI: What Simphiwe said is the same thing as what I would say.

MR MOPEDI: And coming back to all these incidents, under whose command were you?

MR MHAMBI: Let us start with the Leviza incident. After the Committee of Seven, before Mosa was elected as the sectional commander, there were street commanders before where we would meet and discuss what we would do today and what we would do the next day.

During the Leviza incident I think it was half of us who were there and other soldiers from other sections were there. This is what we discussed with the commanders of the other street. All in all Mosa was not my commander at that time because at that time he was not the commander of the section yet.

MR MOPEDI: And then who was before Mosa, became the commander of the section, who was the commander of the section?

MR MHAMBI: Before Mosa it was Mfinos.

MR MOPEDI: Let's got back to the incident of Dube. You said you shot people there, do you know how many people you have shot?

MR MHAMBI: I can't say how many were there because if you are shooting you are trying also to protect yourself and when you finish that job you run away from that place.

MR MOPEDI: But is it possible that people might have been shot, injured or even killed?

MR MHAMBI: Both are possible, Sir.

MR MOPEDI: Could you say with certainty that you shot people, how many were those people and who were those people?

MR MHAMBI: I wouldn't be certain about that, Sir.

MR MOPEDI: So but what you know is that it is possible that you might have shot someone, injured or even killed someone?

MR MHAMBI: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: And then let's go back to the Mshayazafe incident. Did you kill anyone there?

MR MHAMBI: I think if I'm not mistaken and according to what I said, what happened in Dube is connected with what happened there because when you are shooting you are shooting towards people. So it happens that when you are shooting you would shoot at a person and that person would be shot and you wouldn't know who that person is. Or that person would lie down because he could hear the sounds of the bullets even though he is not shot.

MR MOPEDI: Were you given a firearm or any weapon?

MR MHAMBI: Yes, I was given a firearm.

MR MOPEDI: What type of firearm was it?

MR MHAMBI: The AK47.

MR MOPEDI: So if you were given an AK47, what happened eventually to it?

MR MHAMBI: Can you please repeat your question, Sir.

MR MOPEDI: My question is, since that you were given a firearm, an AK47 to use, what happened to that firearm, that AK47 that you were provided with?

MR MHAMBI: I didn't return mine but what happened is the members of the ISU came to fetch it at home, the took the firearm. I was not there.

MR MOPEDI: So is there anything that you would like to add to your testimony?

MR MHAMBI: For now there is nothing else, except what I've already said.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhambi, were you the commander of Mkwaie Street?

MR MHAMBI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that during the period before Mosa Msimango became the commander, that you referred to when there was three commanders?

MR MHAMBI: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you were - I'm trying to ascertain at what stage, at what time were you the commander of Mkwaie Street, was that before Mosa Msimango became the commander?

MR MHAMBI: Let me answer this way. Mosa took over after we were straight commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us an idea, during what period were you the street commander of Mkwaie Street.

MR MHAMBI: Early in the year after we collected money after we were elected as the Committee of Seven.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying early 1993?

MR MHAMBI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was that at the time when Mfinos was the commander of the Lusaka-A SDU?

MR MHAMBI: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the situation that within the SDU there was Mfinos the commander and there were commanders of different streets?

MR MHAMBI: I don't understand the question, Sir, can you please repeat it.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I must ask you just to explain to us how was the Lusaka-A SDU organised at the time when you were the street commander of Mkwaie Street. How did the organisation work?

MR MHAMBI: It is like this, Sir. At the beginning we were working like this, before Mosa took over we would take a report and hand it over to Mfinos and he would hand it over, he would forwarded it. But what would happen while Mosa was in command, what he was doing was not different from what we were doing but the difference was that the weapons or the firearms that we used, they were used more than before. What I mean is that when you got to certain streets you would find that there was no control about the firearms and then it was decided that within the Committee of Seven a person would be elected to look at whatever was happening concerning the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just tell us, were there other street commanders as well within the SDU in Lusaka-A?

MR MHAMBI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what were your duties as street commanders, what did you have to do?

MR MHAMBI: Our duty was this. In the street that we were operating in we were to look at the situation around the street, that there are no unknown persons in that particular street. We were monitoring the situations in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you as street commander, were you in charge of a number of men?

MR MHAMBI: That is correct. To add more, as I've already said that the people were misusing the bullets of the firearms, certain people were selected and we would look at the people if they members of the SDUs or they were using the firearms for their own needs. We didn't know exactly what was happening with the firearms or the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were basically in charge of your street and you had to ensure that things went right in your street that you were responsible for?

MR MHAMBI: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: The Dube incident, I understood you to say that Mosa was not the commander of the section at that time?

MR MHAMBI: That is not correct. I said in the Dleveza

incident he was not a commander then.

Can I drink water?

ADV GCABASHE: You have also referred to the Mshayazafe incident, that is the 1994 incident, just to date it, early '94, April '94, is that the one?

MR MHAMBI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MHAMBI: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Chairman.

Mr Mhambi, were you aware that at some stage these firearms were supposed to be handed in somewhere now that the job was done?

MR MHAMBI: I knew about this when the central commander and the people in charge of this section came from their meetings and they told us about this issue.

ADV SANDI: Was it your intention to hand this firearm to the - was it your intention to hand it in?

MR MHAMBI: Those were not my intentions.

ADV SANDI: Did you not entertain such an intention?

MR MHAMBI: I was not sure whether the violence was over.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhambi, you are excused.

MR MOPEDI: Mr Chairman, I would propose that the other matter which was stood down should be heard, and at the same time I will request to be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the matter of Feni? Mr Sibeko, will you deal with that one?

MR SIBEKO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Will Mr Feni come up.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, his application appears on page 113 in the same bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names Michael Feni?

MICHAEL FENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Feni, do you confirm that you are applying for amnesty in this matter, is that correct?

MR FENI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you apply for amnesty because of your role in the SDU at Lusaka-A?

MR FENI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit?

MR FENI: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander at the time?

MR FENI: It was Mosa.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have specific incidences wherein you were involved as a member of the SDU under Mosa's command?

MR FENI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Would you tell us about them?

MR FENI: Yes, I can tell you. The first one was in Ngaki when people were taken out of their houses. Some of them were killed. I then decided to take part in this because our people were being killed and their houses were being taken away from them. That is why I decided to be involved.

MR SIBEKO: Those people who were killed and moved out of their houses, who were killing them and who was busy killing them?

MR FENI: They were killed by the IFP.

MR SIBEKO: How do you know that they were killed by IFP members?

MR FENI: Because they had red bands to show that they were members of the IFP.

MR SIBEKO: Now you indicated that as a result of those attacks or the two incidents that you have just referred to, you decided to join the unit, were you at any stage or did you at any stage carry any weapon whatsoever to that effect?

MR FENI: Yes, I did carry a weapon, an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: Now let us start again from the incident that occurred at - the very same incident that you are talking about, what happened after you found out that people were killed and they were moved out of their houses, what did you do?

MR FENI: What happened is we were forced to attack them because they were killing people.

MR SIBEKO: Now will I be understanding you correctly that you also fired shots towards the same people that you are referring to?

MR FENI: Can you please repeat your question.

MR SIBEKO: You say the IFP members killed people at Ngaki, moved people of Ngaki out of their homes. Now you joined the unit, as part of the unit did you fire any shots towards members of the IFP, the said members of the IFP?

MR FENI: Yes, we shot at them.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Feni, the question is, did you, not you in a large number of people but you yourself personally.

MR FENI: Yes, I shot.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to say whether you killed or injured anybody out of that attack?

MR FENI: Yes, there were people who died.

MR SIBEKO: How do you know that, Sir?

MR FENI: It is because I was not shooting, I was not facing on the ground, I was facing at the people.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you would want to tell us about, except the one that you have referred to?

MR FENI: Yes, the incident at Buthelezi when there was a helicopter flying in that area, the Stability Unit. They were burning people's houses in Buthelezi. They were burning houses and that was a very painful thing. In that incident I also used that AK47.

MR SIBEKO: Now you say - in fact, in what you're saying you don't mention who those people who were accompanied sort of by the ISU as you say, who were those people who were busy burning people's houses and, who were those people?

MR FENI: The people who were burning people's houses had red bands. They were members of the IFP.

MR SIBEKO: The very same question again, are you in a position to state whether you killed or injured anybody in that attack?

MR FENI: There is no doubt that I might have killed a person, I did kill on that particular day.

MR SIBEKO: What eventually happened to the weapon that you were using, that is the AK47?

MR FENI: The AK47 was taken by the Stability Unit, by the police. They arrested my wife, they took my wife with them.

MR SIBEKO: At that time were you aware that - in fact, was it before the campaign wherein people were supposed to hand their weapons over to whoever, who organised that campaign?

MR FENI: It was before that campaign.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Feni, in these two incidents that you've referred to at Mgaki and at Buthelezi, these attackers were burning houses. Now what did you do there, did you shoot at those people that were burning the houses, with our AK47?

MR FENI: We shot at the people who were burning the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these the only two incidents that you were involved in?

MR FENI: Those are the two that I still remember.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Chair.

What does that mean, Mr Feni, does this mean to say that those were the only incidents that you were involved in or is it to say that there may be other incidents in which you were involved but you cannot remember them?

MR FENI: I don't remember other incidents. It doesn't mean that these are the only two.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when about did these two take place?

MR FENI: If I'm not mistaken it was in 1993 and in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: This Buthelezi, the one where the helicopter was involved, which one was that, '93 or '94?

MR FENI: I am not sure. I do not remember when exactly it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not sure whether it was in 1993 or in 1994?

MR FENI: I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: So both these incidents that you refer to were in the 1993/1994 period, you're not sure?

MR FENI: Yes, that is correct, I'm not sure about the dates. I was also arrested so I couldn't keep on the dates and the years. I was arrested concerning the AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: In which year were you arrested?

MR FENI: 1994, maybe in February.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to that case?

MR FENI: The Stability Unit members did not attend the Court and I was then released after six months.

CHAIRPERSON: So they withdrew the charges against you?

MR FENI: Yes, they withdrew them.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you also asking for amnesty for having had this AK47 unlawfully in your possession?

MR FENI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This AK47, have you only used it in connection with your activities as a member of the SDU?

MR FENI: I was using it only as a member of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: You have - or let me ask you, have you ever been involved in the Committee of Seven?

MR FENI: Yes, I do know about the Committee of Seven.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in any of their activities?

MR FENI: I was always with them all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you help them to do anything like collect money or anything like that?

MR FENI: I don't remember collecting money.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you help them with anything in particular?

MR FENI: I don't remember clearly except that we would meet in the meetings of the Committee of Seven as a person who was unemployed.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just be attending the meetings as a member of the community?

MR FENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And otherwise you spent a lot of time with some of the members of the committee?

MR FENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Only one aspect, Mr Chairman.

Mr Feni, were you an elected member of the Committee of Seven?

MR FENI: I was not an elected member but I had to attend their meetings and to guard them if they were attacked by the IFP, so that I could take part at that time.

MR SIBEKO: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Feni, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: What is next?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, with your permission, that will be the roll for the day. There will be more applicants tomorrow, but my learned colleagues have informed me that they need to not only consult but also need to do some preparation for tomorrow. And with your permission, Mr Chairman, this will be the roll for today. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well I think we have covered quite a bit of ground. We are going to adjourn the proceedings at this stage, until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We will reconvene at nine. We are adjourned.