CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we want to start. For the record it is Tuesday, the 1st of December 1998. This is a continuation of the Thokoza SDU amnesty applications. The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are the same.

This morning Mr Sibeko is appearing for the first applicant, which I am told is Bongani Radebe, at page 142 of our bundle. Is that correct, Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can you hear me?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give us your full names?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter and applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the said unit?

MR RADEBE: I started in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR RADEBE: Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: What are you applying for amnesty for, what is the reason for your application for amnesty?

MR RADEBE: The reason for me to apply for amnesty is because I used to handle firearms. They belonged to the street, not to the whole section. That is why I am asking for amnesty, because I used to have arms unlawfully.

MR SIBEKO: What kind of arms are those?

MR RADEBE: AK47.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just explain the difference to us between street firearms and section? I understand section ones because you got them from the section, street? Explain that one to us.

MR RADEBE: The firearms belonged to my street which is called Hlehlango Street. Those were AK47 rifles, three of them. They belonged to Hlehlango Street where I used to stay.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute before you go on.

Did you hold any specific position in respect of that street, Hlehlango Street where you lived?

MR RADEBE: No, I never had a position but in my street, it was the nearest place for the comrade who would go and fight. The meeting place was closer to my street and the comrades wouldn't go back. But I did not have a position, I just had those firearms because I was the nearest person from the borders further down.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be understanding you correctly if I say that you were nearer to the soldiers than it would be for the soldier to Mosa? That is for the purposes of keeping arms.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I agree, I was the nearest person than the others and even if it's time for them to move from my street to the battlefield.

MR SIBEKO: The understanding that we have is that arms were purchased out of the contributions made by the community, and we refer to those arms as arms of the section or of that community. What is the difference between the arms that I've just referred to and those that you referred to as your street arms? Were those arms purchased by the members of your, or the residents of your street?

MR RADEBE: All of them belonged to the community. When the community was purchasing them, each and every street would have volunteers. Like myself, I was a volunteer and I committed myself to the SDU and these arms were taken and allocated to streets and some people were appointed, people volunteered to control those arms. That was the situation.

MR SIBEKO: Now what happened to those arms?

MR RADEBE: Those three firearms, three boys took them but I don't know what happened to those. I tried to investigate but I did not get any information about the firearms.

The third firearm, one comrade who was here to testify, who was also arrested, his name is Fanyana Nhlapo took that firearm.

MR SIBEKO: In essence you were left with no firearm thereafter?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incident of violence where attacks were launched between the members of the Self Defence Unit and/or the IFP members?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: In essence your application is for amnesty with respect to unlawful possession of three AK47s, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can we just go back a bit to the way in which things were organised. Now you lived in Hlehlango Street, that is one of the streets in Lusaka-A section in Thokoza, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also said to us that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit of Lusaka-A section under the command Mosa Msimango.

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that in addition you had volunteered to do certain things. Now, can you just tell us what was it that you volunteered to do for the SDU?

MR RADEBE: I volunteered to be the SDU. No-one was appointed to be an SDU, you would bring yourself because of the situation prevailing at the time. That is why I'm saying I volunteered. I had given myself to protect my community.

CHAIRPERSON: That is insofar as your joining the SDU was concerned, but in addition to that, more specifically in regard to the arms, what was it that you volunteered to do?

MR RADEBE: I volunteered to protect the community. I was part of my brothers, the others who had come here to testify, and I would also kill if necessary but unfortunately most of the times I was not among them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll come back to the question I've introduced just a minute ago, but let's carry on with this point that you have made now.

You knew that the Self Defence Unit was armed with firearms, in most instances with AK47 assault rifles, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Would you please repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that the Self Defence Unit, your one in Lusaka-A, was armed mostly with AK47 assault rifles, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were aware of the fact that those arms are deadly and they can kill, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And also that these arms would be used against those people that the community was fighting with in Thokoza, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And can we also accept that you were aware and you accept that through the activities of the SDU people more than likely would have been injured and even killed through the use of, amongst other things, the AK47 rifles but any other weapons that the Self Defence Unit members were armed with?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you associated yourself with the Self Defence Unit, with the conduct of your colleagues, members of the unit and of all the actions that were taken by the unit, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And your purpose was to assist the Self Defence Unit in whatever they had to do in this fight that you were engaged in, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understood you correctly, one of the things that you did do was to take charge and control the weapons that were allocated to Hlehlango Street?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your duty to ensure that those arms are safe firstly?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I had to ensure that those arms do not fall into the wrong hands that can end up harassing the community.

CHAIRPERSON: And you kept it in, let's call it safekeeping, to ensure that it is not confiscated by any of the authorities?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you issue the firearms to members of the SDU when they had to go and engage in a fight?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I did that.

CHAIRPERSON: And once the Self Defence Unit members returned, you would receive the arms back and keep them in safety?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it - I'm not sure, was it three AK47 rifles that your street possessed?

MR RADEBE: Yes, there were three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And all three those rifles, when they were not in use by the SDU members, were in your possession?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For about what period roughly were you in possession of these rifles?

MR RADEBE: That would depend on the situation. I would sometimes keep them for two weeks and they got lost at the end as I've already told you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of the overall period of possession, from the time that you first got it until the time that you finally lost possession. What sort of period are we talking about, was it a year, longer than a year?

MR RADEBE: They were in my possession from the very first day up until one day in 1994. I can't remember the date and the month. The two comrades passes away and I don't know what happened to the firearms thereafter.

I tried to investigate but I couldn't get information. They just disappeared just like that. I also don't even know what happened to the arms but two comrades passed away and they had those arms.

CHAIRPERSON: And just to get some more clarity, I think you have referred to the other one as well, but the third one, what happened to that one, can you just repeat that please?

MR RADEBE: The third rifle, Fanyana Nhlapo, the one who testified here, was arrested and he had that firearm when he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: So it looks as if it's the period from 1993 when you joined, until 1994 that the arms were in your possession. Now during that period, were these arms often used in fights, did you issue them a lot to the members?

MR RADEBE: No, it would happen that sometimes I'm not present, maybe I'm at work where I used to work. My commander knew where the arms were and whenever he needed the arms he would go there and fetch them. I did not allow anyone except my commander to go to my home and get hold of the arms. I used to tell him that whenever there is a need he would go to such and such a place and get the arms. Sometimes when I asked them if something did happen, he would just say to me nothing happened. The arms were always in the same position that I left them.

CHAIRPERSON: And apart from the occasions when the commander would himself collect the arms, were they used on a number of occasions in fights where you were aware of, where you had issued them to members of the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: Whenever there is a need, maybe there is a fight, they would be used but if there is nothing the arms would not be used. That is all I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we also assume that you accept that under those circumstances those arms could have caused a large number of injuries or even deaths?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And then just to get the full picture from you in regard to your application. Are you asking for amnesty for all of your participation in the activities of the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're saying that you yourself have never taken any of the arms and shot people with them?

MR RADEBE: No, I've never done that.

ADV SANDI: Mr Radebe, did I understand you to say that you joined the SDUs in 1993?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: According to your application form where you were asked to specify acts and offences in respect of which you're seeking amnesty, you say that is from July/August 1990 to December 1993. Would you like to explain that?

MR RADEBE: I think that was a mistake. I know it was 1993 but I'm not sure about the date, it's definitely not 1990. I don't remember the date but I do know that I joined during 1993.

ADV SANDI: In other words that is to say that from 1990 to 1992, you were not involved in anything, were you?

MR RADEBE: Could you repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You only started in 1993 to be involved, otherwise before that you were not involved at all?

MR RADEBE: Probably that relates to the barricading of the roads or streets but joining the SDUs was during 1993. Before then we used to just barricade the streets, and during 1993, it's only then that I knew about the use of guns and I joined the SDUs. That is when the situation became unbearable, then I joined the SDUs.

ADV SANDI: So before 1993, you were involved in the barricading of the streets, what else were you involved in? What else did you do before 1993?

MR RADEBE: There are no other instances in which I was involved besides barricading because we would just barricade the streets and run away thereafter. We were not involved in any human rights violations at that stage.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So prior to formally joining the Self Defence Unit in 1993, you assisted where you could in the defence of the community from or against attacks?

MR RADEBE: Could you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Prior to actually joining up with the Self Defence Unit in 1993, and getting involved in the activities of the Self Defence Unit, would it be correct to say that you were generally involved and trying to help where you could in defending the community against attacks? Say by barricading the streets or whatever it might be, but in a general sense trying to help.

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, I was involved in whatever happened before 1993. As a means of protecting the community it also involved barricading the streets. I used to be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Carlson Sibuko Dlamini. His application is on page 164.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, can you hear?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please stand and give us your full names?

CARLSON SIBUKO DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down.

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Dlamini, do you confirm that you are also applying for amnesty?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A, Thokoza?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR DLAMINI: I joined during the year 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that you only participated from 1993, early in the year until late or the end of 1993? Is that what you are saying?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR DLAMINI: Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in the activities or the incidents of violence between the members of the Self Defence and the people that you were fighting with?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those incidents?

MR DLAMINI: I joined during the year 1993. From 1990 I was at a music school, so at that time I wasn't really involved until I came back during early 1993 and I discovered that the situation was bad in the area. I was one of the monitors in my section, looking after the guns or the weapons of the community.

MR SIBEKO: If you say you were looking after those arms, are you by any chance saying those arms were kept at your place, those arms were issued out to the soldiers by yourself? What exactly do you mean by saying you were taking care of those arms?

MR DLAMINI: I was monitoring the guns of the section. I was also one of the people who were able to go out and attack members of the IFP or fight them.

MR SIBEKO: In other words, your position is the same as that of Mr Bongani Radebe who has just testified, inasfar as it relates to the arms that belong to your street where you stayed?

MR DLAMINI: No, that is not the same, I used to monitor the weapons and also go to fight at Mxeleni section.

MR SIBEKO: How many arms did you have in your street?

MR DLAMINI: We had three guns.

MR SIBEKO: Were they all AK47s or did they vary?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now you'll forgive me Sir, but you will have to explain to us what you actually mean by monitoring. I understand that your position is different to Mr Bongani Radebe, because you used to go to wherever there was an attack. What we want to know is, did you keep the arms at your place and did you issue those arms to the soldiers when you went to those troubled spots?

MR DLAMINI: In my section there were soldiers that I relied upon. I knew as to how to dish out the guns and I wanted responsible people to take those guns, people that I knew would look after the guns properly after having made use of them.

At times I would go to their respective places to check that the guns were still there and still intact after use.

MR SIBEKO: In other words, those arms were not kept at your place?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR SIBEKO: Now you stated that you also participated in the acts of violence, would you tell us if possible, exactly where and when were you actively involved in the attacks or in the defence, as you might wish to call it?

MR DLAMINI: Because there was this violence in the area - I live next to Slovo area and that is where the IFP usually starts attacking people. We were right at the border of the area where the attacks would be launched first before they go right deep inside the area. I was also at Mshayazafe area. ...(indistinct) two incidents.

MR SIBEKO: You are not in a position to remember as to exactly when you were actively involved, that is maybe in '93 or '94, where you were involved in at Mshayazafe or at Penduka, Buthelezi?

MR DLAMINI: I'm not positive as to the time frame because when you fight or you are in such a situation, especially if it takes place on a daily basis, you are not able to keep track of the days and the dates but I do know that it was during 1993.

MR SIBEKO: In your involvement, would you agree with me that there could be a large number of people whom you might have killed or injured as a result of your shooting? As you say you were also involved when the acts of violence took place.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I would agree because in a fight situation you shoot at them and they shoot at you, so you are not able to tell that so many people were injured and so many died. Are you in a position to tell us about the identity of the people that you might have killed or injured, so you know them?

MR DLAMINI: No, I'm not in a position to tell you that.

MR SIBEKO: So your application is mostly for your involvement in the acts of violence and in distributing the AK47s that you referred to, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Could you repeat the question please?

MR SIBEKO: Your application is for your involvement in the acts or attacks or acts of violence and in your distribution of the said AK47s to your trusted members of the SDU, as you have put it?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you would want us to know, apart from the two that you have just mentioned?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, there is.

MR SIBEKO: You can tell us about it.

MR DLAMINI: There is a certain man by the name of Mr Mavuso who was staying in the same section as myself. I think it was on Xmas day or New Year's Day when this incident took place.

He was with the Khumalo gang and shot about nine of our members. We then decided to call a meeting with the community and a decision was taken that we should deal with this man accordingly. After the meeting a resolution was reached that we approach the landlady to come to the meeting so that we could address the issue. We reported back to the community that the landlady did not want to come to the meeting, as we had called her earlier on.

A decision was reached that the house should be destroyed. I was one of the people who spearheaded the destruction of that house. I played a big role in that.

MR SIBEKO: What did you do to the house, did you burn it down or ...?

MR DLAMINI: As a monitor and a very well-known person, I did not want to get actively involved in burning down the house but we went there and destroyed, broke down the windows as well as the doors and I thereafter left the place for the other ones to burn it down so that I could not be pointed out or I couldn't be identified as having burnt it down.

MR SIBEKO: Now are you in a position to tell us about the nine people who were allegedly killed by the Khumalo gang in the company of Mr Mavuso? Do you know those nine people?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do know them but I was close to only two of them because they were my neighbours. It was Bhani and Tabelo.

MR SIBEKO: Now when the attack on Bhani and Tabelo and the others took place, did you actually see Mr Mavuso and the Khumalo gang, did you see them doing it or ...?

MR DLAMINI: They arrived at Mr Mavuso's place during the day, a blue E20 kombi, together with IFP members who had red T-shirts and red bandannas. On the very same day that these men were going to be killed, they were travelling in the same kombi and we realised that he was involved.

MR SIBEKO: Before this incident - or let me put it like this, the day this incident took place, did you actually see Mr Mavuso in the company of this group which was in the said kombi?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, we saw him because I live just close to his house. His house is the third house from my own house, so we were quite close and I was able to see whatever was happening at his place.

MR SIBEKO: Now were you present when either of the nine or the whole nine were shot at?

MR DLAMINI: I wasn't present at that particular time, I was moving around in the area because it was New Year's Eve or Xmas but it was the festive season so I wasn't really at home.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that you got it from somebody else that the people who were killed by this Khumalo gang ...(intervention)

MR DLAMINI: I was not told by people, I saw the kombi during the day and I saw it about half past eleven to twelve. It was driving past the shops whilst we were playing dice and gambling.

MR SIBEKO: But Sir, you'd agree with me that at the time the shots were fired you were not present? All that you are saying is - you'll correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying you suspect the kombi to have been involved in the killing because you kept on seeing it during the day, is that what you are saying?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did see it. I did suspect that they were involved, but what even confirmed my suspicions was that the following day he packed his bags and left his wife and kids in the house and he has never ever returned to the area. That even confirmed out suspicions that he was actually involved.

MR SIBEKO: The AK47 that you were using, what happened to it, Sir? That is the AK47 that you used at Mshayazafe and at Buthelezi.

MR DLAMINI: It was taken by the police.

MR SIBEKO: Your application is for everything that you did - your application for amnesty is for everything that you did whilst you were still a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Dlamini, was anything done to Mr Mavuso, was he attacked?

MR DLAMINI: He ran away, he fled the area. He was never at any stage attacked.

ADV SANDI: You say you did not take part in the burning of his house, you only assisted when it was being destroyed, can you explain exactly what you mean by that? Were you throwing stones at this house or how did you go about destroying that house?

MR DLAMINI: What I'm trying to explain here is that as I was a leader in my area I did not want to be seen to be leading the group that was spearheading the destruction. I only went there and pelted the doors as well as the windows with stones and I immediately left the area and left the other ones to continue with the attack and the burning down of the house.

ADV SANDI: Those weapons, those arms which you say were in your possession, how did it come about that you were in possession of those arms, where did you get them?

MR DLAMINI: These were the guns that belonged to our particular section, that is Lusaka-A.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to remember who you gave them to, so that they could go and participate in a fight with the IFP?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

ADV SANDI: Who was that?

MR DLAMINI: I gave them to Ephraim Mzondo and Herman Marhinqi and one was taken by me.

ADV SANDI: That was for use in which incident?

MR DLAMINI: We were going to use those guns to protect the community. It was not a gun that we'd just take and use it at random or at own free will.

ADV SANDI: Now I think what I mean is, was it for use at the Mshayazafe attack and Penduka?

MR DLAMINI: We used the guns to protect the community from Buthelezi section and further on, but our border or dividing line, or line of demarkation was Buthelezi. That is when we attacked and we stopped at the Buthelezi section.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Dlamini. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Dlamini, right at the outset the note I made here was that you only participated in SDU activities during 1993, that's not correct, you actually can't tell whether it was '93 or '94? Can you help me with that?

MR DLAMINI: I had explained that during 1993 I became a member of the SDU. From 1990 up to 1993, or maybe I might as well start from the beginning. From 1988 up to 1993 I was at Fuba, a school of music, so I was not involved in any other incident of violence.

When I finished at the school of music during 1993, I joined the SDU. It is only then that I started getting involved.

ADV GCABASHE: The reason I ask is because you later say that you were involved in the Mshayazafe incident. Now that incident, from the evidence that has led, that incident occurred in 1994, so the note I should have here is that you participated during 1993 through to 1994, yes?

MR DLAMINI: I do not remember the date as well as the days, but from 1993 to 1994 I was involved in all or most of the incidents that took place.

ADV GCABASHE: The other area of activity that has been mentioned to us is that of the gangs, and controlling those gangs in the sense that you would confiscate their weapons if you came across them. Were you involved in that activity at all?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, there were gangs who operated in the area but I was not involved in the patrolling and confiscation of weapons from the gangs.

ADV GCABASHE: Then I take it with regards to your participation in the Mshayazafe incident and the Buthelezi Street incident, that you accept that as a participant, people were possibly killed or injured during that fight?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And those injuries or the killing could have been as a result of you using your firearm on that occasion?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, you say that before these activities you were at a music school for about five years, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do, did you study music or what?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what do you do at the moment?

MR DLAMINI: We are conducting some rehearsals on a daily basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you part of a musical group or what?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we do have a band but it's not a fully fledged band because we are still waiting for our member, one of our members who is overseas. We are planning to release an album later this year or early next year.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you then came back and you found that the area was engulfed in conflict, fighting, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you were one of the leaders, you were well-known, you were well-known in the area, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: No, not one of the well-known leaders. I could put it like this, I was a leader in my section, in my particular section. I was a leader I could say on a small scale, not a national leader or a leader for the whole area but for my section in particular.

CHAIRPERSON: Or you might be better known as a musician than a fighter?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But now there were three AK47 rifles that you referred to, and those belonged to Lusaka-A. That was purchased I assume, with the funds that were collected by the community?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And were those three firearms allocated to you to issue them to responsible people and to monitor the use of those arms?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So in that process you kept one for yourself and you gave the other two to the two members, I assume, of the Self Defence Unit that you have referred to in your testimony, would that be right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then those two firearms that you had actually issued to other persons, you would keep an eye on them, you would monitor them just to satisfy yourself that they are not being abused? Would that be right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those two firearms that you had actually handed out to your two comrades, did they never actually come back into your possession physically?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, Sir. They were confiscated by the police. What led to the police confiscating those guns was that the fight was now over, I took those three AK47s and gave them to Ephraim Mzondo, who is quite a responsible guy who doesn't drink or smoke. So I gave the guns to him to keep them.

The police were conducting their regular search and they went over to Ephraim's place and they confiscated the guns. He was also arrested and kept in custody.

CHAIRPERSON: But during the period when the AK47s were in use, you would satisfy yourself that Ephraim and the other person were using the guns for the purpose for which you had handed it to them. In other words, to engage in fighting with the people who were attacking the community?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be correct to assume that you would have had the authority to withdraw those firearms if you were not satisfied that those two SDU members were using the arms properly?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, as a monitor in my section or street, I had to take exceptionally good care of the use of guns as well as the guns themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you say that you had to take care of the guns themselves, would that include ensuring that they are in, they are operative, not faulty?

MR DLAMINI: Could you please repeat your question and rephrase it? What faults are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, I shall do that. It was part of your responsibility to ensure that those guns were always in working condition, so in other words if there would be some or other fault with the firearm, Ephraim or the other person would come back to you and say "Look please, this thing is not working properly, could you please sort it out?". Would that be correct?

MR DLAMINI: No, I would not agree with that. These guns never had any faults, but in case the guns did have faults I would have taken them back to my commander because I didn't have any experience with guns that would probably have had faults.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you have answered the point that I was really trying to raise with you in this question.

So all in all these guns would have been used quite frequently in fighting?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were always in working condition?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, we've never experienced any problems with faulty guns, especially myself. Speaking for myself, I have never had that problem. I don't know with regard to the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I think you've already told us that, perhaps not directly, but that in both the incidents that you had referred to, the Mshayazafe incident and what is referred to as the Buthelezi incident, if I understand it correctly, it is also referred to as the Penduka incident, but in both those two you had your firearm with you and you had fired shots at the opposition?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we already have fair information about those two incidents. The third one that you've referred to in respect of Mr Mavuso, was that during the festive period in 1993, when that incident happened?

MR DLAMINI: No, it wasn't during Xmas period, it could have been New Year's Eve or New Year's Day but not Xmas.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are referring to the period end of 1993/beginning of 1994, that's when this particular incident had happened?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now whose house was it actually that was destroyed?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it was Mr Mavuso's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after he had abandoned his family?

MR DLAMINI: Could you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after Mr Mavuso had abandoned his family, as you explained to us? The day after the killing of the nine persons, he had just packed up and left.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: So that house, you say it's about three houses from your own, that was burnt down, would that be correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: With the possessions inside?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct. We wanted Mr Mavuso. We were able to evacuate his wife as well as the children because we knew that they were innocent, we did not want them to get caught in the crossfire.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you actually go to the house, you looked for Mr Mavuso, you discovered that he had left, you found the wife and the children and then you removed them from the house and then the house was destroyed?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody was injured in that incident?

MR DLAMINI: I've already explained that we did not want his family members, we wanted him in particular because he was the culprit as far as we were concerned, so got injured in the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this action undertaken by the members of the Self Defence Unit, the destruction of the house?

MR DLAMINI: The SDU I could say was controlled or governed by the members of the community, not vice-

versa.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, the community had taken a decision at the meeting that the house should be destroyed and the Self Defence Unit members executed that decision?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct. If the community has taken a decision, they can also as members of the community get involved in executing that decision, it was not a job specifically designated for the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: But were the SDU members taking the initiative in executing that decision of the community? In other words, they were leading the execution?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now although you left, and I think you explained to us you left purposely, before the house was burnt you agreed with that action, you associated yourself with that action of burning the house?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Has that house be re-occupied and repaired, or what has happened to it?

MR DLAMINI: The house had been renovated. Mavuso has also come back into the area and he is living in the house because now there is a spirit of peace and there's communication between us and himself.

CHAIRPERSON: And is the family back as well, the wife and the children?

MR DLAMINI: We saw him yesterday putting some of his possessions and packing them into the house and some of the members of his family were with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlamini, you are excused. Good luck with your album.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Fanekaya Herman Marhinqi. His application is on page 243.

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Sir. You must please excuse me, I wouldn't do any justice to your surname. My colleague has tried to give me a crash course in pronouncing it but I'm not going to try and do that. Do you hear me over the headphones?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record please?

FANEKAYA HERMAN MARHINQI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down.

MR SIBEKO: May I proceed, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Marhinqi, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit, Sir?

MR MARHINQI: It was in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR MARHINQI: Mosa Msimango was my commander.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also involved in the incidents of violence that we have heard about throughout the applications?

MR MARHINQI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those that you were involved in personally?

MR MARHINQI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed.

MR MARHINQI: First of all I took part in trying to protect the community from the attacks that were launched by the IFP members.

MR SIBEKO: What did you do specifically in the defence of your community? What role, what did you do?

MR MARHINQI: What I did, I was requested to be among the other people who would organise firearms. The community would meet and collect some money and thereafter the money would be given to a certain gentleman, there was a name, maybe that person was a treasurer or something, and after that he would give me that money so that I can go and organise the firearms at Polla Park. That is one of the things that I did at first.

MR SIBEKO: Before you proceed, Sir, the meeting that you are referring to where contributions were made by the members of the public, is it the same meeting that we heard about from the members of the Committee of Seven?

MR MARHINQI: Will you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR SIBEKO: The meeting wherein contributions were made by the members of the community so that arms could be bought, is it the same meeting that we heard of from the members of the Committee of Seven, that is the Committee of Seven of Lusaka? Is it one and the same meeting or is it a different meeting?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: It's the same meeting?

MR MARHINQI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now you accepted the responsibility of going out to buy arms, did you do that and if so, whom did you buy those arms from and where?

MR MARHINQI: I would buy them at Polla Park from one guy named John.

MR SIBEKO: How many arms did you personally buy from the said John and where did you take those arms to?

MR MARHINQI: I bought three firearms.

MR SIBEKO: Were they pistols, revolvers, AK47s?

MR MARHINQI: AK47 rifles.

MR SIBEKO: In fact from Polla Park where did you take those AK47s to?

MR MARHINQI: I brought them to the township and I gave them to one of them whose name was Carlson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, would the interpreter just repeat that, there was a disturbance over the headphone.

MR MARHINQI: I brought them to the township and I handed them over to a gentleman called Carlson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

MR SIBEKO: Now you say you gave those arms to Carlson, do you mean Carlson Dlamini who has just testified?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now would you be in a position to remember exactly when you bought these arms, was in 1993, 1994, when exactly?

MR MARHINQI: If I'm not mistaken I think it was in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to remember whether it was early in the year, mid-year or later in the year 1993?

MR MARHINQI: I think it was mid-year. Although I cannot remember the exact month, but I think it was mid-year.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, you bought three AK47s which you gave over to Carlson, what else did you do as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MARHINQI: One of the things I did was to be in possession of AK47 and I also took part in trying to protect the community during attacks that were launched by the members of IFP from Buthelezi and Mshayazafe.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that in your involvement in the two incidents, you used the AK47 against the opposition, in that you fired shots?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to assume - will I be correct to say that as a result of your shooting there could be a large number of people who might have died or got injured?

MR MARHINQI: That is an undeniable truth.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether you know those people that you might have injured or killed?

MR MARHINQI: I don't know their names.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to the AK47 that you used during your involvement in the Self Defence Unit?

MR MARHINQI: After the violence had subsided we handed over the arms to Carlson and then he further handed them over to Ephraim Mzondo. One evening the police came and they took the arms.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident which you would want us to know about, wherein you were involved personally?

MR MARHINQI: There's nothing else except those that I've just mentioned.

MR SIBEKO: At the time you went to look or you went to buy these arms, you knew that they were unlawful, in fact your conduct was unlawful? Did you know that, Sir?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, I do.

MR SIBEKO: Did you also know that the said arms were dangerous in that they could, a person could be killed or injured when it is used against that person?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, I knew that.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that that is the reason why you are applying for amnesty?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Will I also be correct to say that you are also applying for amnesty in relation to the activities that you were involved in in Mshayazafe and Buthelezi?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

You also knew that the firearms that you had bought were to be used in this fight that was taking place in the township, in Thokoza?

MR MARHINQI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for tea.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Our next applicant is Mr Aaron Ngwenya. His application appears on page 64, Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, just before I swear the applicant in, one of the important items of information that we require for our purposes is the identity number of the applicant. Now in a few matters that we have already heard and in some that we are about to hear, we've noticed that the identity numbers have not been filled in on the application form itself, so perhaps at some stage you might look into that and perhaps just assist our officials in getting that information from your clients. We don't need to do it on the record or anything like that. So if you just simply bear that in mind when you deal with them, to make sure that they have their ID numbers and they can furnish it to us, thank you.

MR SIBEKO: I'll do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenya, can you hear?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please stand and give your full names for the record please.

JABULANI AARON NGWENYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Ngwenya, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B section?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit, Sir?

MR NGWENYA: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR NGWENYA: Makasonke Mhlope.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents of violence during the times of your membership to the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I was quite involved.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about those incidents.

MR NGWENYA: I was working as a secretary at Lusaka-B.

MR NGWENYA: I was a secretary at Lusaka-B. I used to allocate people to houses from Penduka, people who had fled as a result of the violence and I allocated them to houses that had been left behind by fleeing Inkatha members. I also organised food for them.

I would gather some money from the community to buy some food for these people. I also kept some of the weaponry. The commander had the key to the door and he would take these arms and distribute them among the soldiers. I'm through.

MR SIBEKO: Right. In your testimony you made reference to keeping arms, what type of arms were kept at your place?

MR NGWENYA: I used to keep weapons such as Scorpions and two AKs, an AK47 as well.

MR SIBEKO: At the time you kept these arms, did you know that it was unlawful because you didn't possess any licence to have those firearms with you?

MR NGWENYA: I knew that fully well. I knew that the guns were illegal, but the situation demanded as such.

MR SIBEKO: Did you appreciate the fact that those arms were meant to injure or kill anybody if used?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you specifically involved in any fights, that is in any attack or defensive action in your community?

MR NGWENYA: No, no, I did not use any firearm, what I did was to take care of the firearms.

MR SIBEKO: Now are you in a position to tell us about the number of houses of the displacees which you used to give shelter to those who didn't have any place to stay?

MR NGWENYA: I think there were a hundred of these houses. We would bring people and some shacks would be built behind the houses or at the backyards.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to those houses thereafter, did the owners thereof come back to occupy them or what?

MR NGWENYA: Some of these houses were demolished during the violence, but yes, some people did come back to re-occupy them.

MR SIBEKO: The people who vacated those houses, did they leave those houses as a result of specific attacks or they left their houses because there was that general violence taking place?

MR NGWENYA: There was this general spate of violence in the area, so that when Inkatha people were marching people from Mavimbala section nearby our section, if they knew that there was Inkatha people occupying a certain house, therefore moves would be taken.

MR SIBEKO: Are you aware whether some of those people were chased out, that is Self Defence Unit members went to their specific houses to take them out of their houses, are you aware whether that happened or not?

MR NGWENYA: No, I don't bear any knowledge to that effect, I just saw people fleeing their houses.

MR SIBEKO: In your testimony you made reference to the fact that you also collected ...(indistinct) from members of the community in order to provide food, who did you really provide food for? Is it the members of the community or the Self Defence Unit members?

MR NGWENYA: Members of the community. Each household used to contribute to rents. They were not under duress, they were actually prompted by the state of affairs. Some households had three children living away from them.

ADV GCABASHE: I didn't quite get that, is it the community that would benefit or the SDU?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, the community.

MR SIBEKO: The three arms that you referred to, what happened to them?

MR NGWENYA: The Scorpion was confiscated by the soldiers, or should I say "disappeared" whilst in the possession of one of our soldiers. The other one was also taken, it actually got lost.

MR SIBEKO: In other words, two of the arms that you referred to were taken by members of the South African Defence Force, the then South African Defence Force, is that correct?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: The one you say remained, what happened to it?

MR NGWENYA: This one was sent to the Committee of Seven. I think they took it to the stadium or Polla Park.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you would want us to know?

MR NGWENYA: No.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct therefore to say that your application is for amnesty with respect to keeping unlicensed arms at your place, secondly, giving shelter to the people who did not actually own those houses, and yourself not having permission to do that, lawful permission to do that?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Ngwenya, do you know of any specific incidents of attack for which members of the SDUs came to you to ask for firearms?

MR NGWENYA: Many things were happening, soldiers would come to me looking for firearms but they would not come to me directly, they would talk to the commander and not myself.

ADV SANDI: You are not able to say on such and such a date if you recall the date, soldiers came to me to ask for arms so that they could attack such and such a place, are you able to say that?

MR NGWENYA: What I know is when Mazibuko was shot, a soldier called Stambo came and took one firearm and shot Mr Mazibuko. That is one incident that I can testify to.

ADV SANDI: Who was shot, are you saying Mr Mazibuko or they shot at Mr Mazibuko?

MR NGWENYA: It was Mr Mazibuko whose house was at the corner in my same street.

ADV SANDI: Why was Mr Mazibuko shot, was he also a member of the IFP?

MR NGWENYA: He was a prominent leader of the IFP.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Ngwenya. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You had how many Scorpions? Is it Scorpio or Scorpion?

MR NGWENYA: We used to call it Scorpion. It was only one and we also had two AK47s.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did those arms come from?

MR NGWENYA: These firearms came from the Committee of Seven and I handed these to the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, these firearms, the Scorpion and the two AK47 rifles, they were in your possession and you distributed them to SDU members?

MR NGWENYA: No, I did not keep these, they were kept at home. We had backyard rooms where these firearms were kept, that's where Makasonke kept these firearms and he kept the key to the rooms as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So these firearms, if I now understand you correctly, were kept by the commander of your SDU, Mr Mhlope?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It was just in a outside room at your house?

MR NGWENYA: At home, that's my parents' home.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in any way involved with these firearms, were you supposed to have kept an eye on them, guard them or whatever?

MR NGWENYA: I used to spend my time at the office at Mbele Street.

CHAIRPERSON: But was there anything that you had to do in respect of these firearms?

MR NGWENYA: No, there's nothing that I did with reference to the firearms, the commander was in charge of these.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you give him the place at the back to use to store the arms in?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew what the arms were going to be used for, for fighting, participating in the fight that was going on in the area?

MR NGWENYA: I knew that fully well.

CHAIRPERSON: You have never personally used any one of these firearms?

MR NGWENYA: Not even a single one.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether there was ammunition as well that could be fired in these firearms?

MR NGWENYA: I never had access to the room, only the commander had access and even the soldiers did not have access to the room.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't say whether there was ammunition as well, bullets in that room?

MR NGWENYA: There may have been some ammunition because they would come across ammunition during their patrols. Yes, there is that possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: This incident where Mr Mazibuko was shot, when did that happen?

MR NGWENYA: I have no idea when it happened, we woke up to this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Which year or which month?

MR NGWENYA: It was in 1993, but I'm not quite sure of the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you referred to one of the soldiers, SDU members, who came to take a firearm in connection with this incident of Mr Mazibuko. I think you used the word Stambo or whatever the name is, I might not have it right, is that correct?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give him that firearm or how did Stambo get the firearm?

MR NGWENYA: He got this firearm from the commander. When he came I was with the commander and many others.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to Mr Mazibuko?

MR NGWENYA: He was taken by the soldiers, that was the last time I saw him. I think it was round about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: By which soldiers was he taken?

MR NGWENYA: The Stability Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he injured when the Stability Unit members took him?

MR NGWENYA: I did not see, they took another route.

CHAIRPERSON: But to your knowledge, was he injured or was he killed eventually, what happened?

MR NGWENYA: He was killed because Stambo did indicate that he is dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an AK47 that was given to Stambo?

MR NGWENYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you regard yourself as in any way involved in this incident around Mr Mazibuko?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, so much involved because the firearm that was used was kept at our home.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that Stambo was going to go and attack Mr Mazibuko with that AK47?

MR NGWENYA: Such things were not discussed. A person would be given a firearm, he would not indicate who he was going to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: But you realised when the AK47 was given to Stambo, that he was likely to go and use it to shoot somebody with?

MR NGWENYA: No, I would not say that, I thought he was just going on a normal patrol.

CHAIRPERSON: But one assumes you realised that taking the gun, going on a normal patrol, under those circumstances also the firearm can be used to kill or injure somebody, not so?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, that was possible, anything could have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And is this the only incident that you are aware of?

MR NGWENYA: This is the only incident that I can testify to, something that happened within my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ngwenya, what about those incidents which were not known to you, incidents in which people may have been attacked and killed with the same weapons, would you take responsibility for that?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, I am involved because firearms that were used were kept at home.

ADV SANDI: You were keeping the firearms at home, not so?

MR NGWENYA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ngwenya, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I just put something on record about this Mr Mazibuko, the person that was killed. I'm informed, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, that the only member that could be traced according to the people who are currently staying at the house where Mr Mazibuko was killed, is the brother of Mr Mazibuko, the brother of the late Mr Mazibuko. This family member has left the area and could not be traced as well. So regarding this specific incident no further in information regarding the family could be traced at all.

Further enquiries were also made in the area and this Mr Mazibuko was well-known but no further information could traced or could be got to identify any of the family members of Mr Mazibuko, except the brother who is apparently still alive but could not be traced. He left the area a few years back. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Mr Themba Khumalo. Mr Chairman, I cannot see the name Themba here but there is Thedima Naphtazi Khumalo, which I think could be one and the same person. If I have to find out from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which page is it?

MR SIBEKO: It's page 126.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR SIBEKO: 126B, Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ascertained whether it is the same matter?

MR SIBEKO: It is one and the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, can you hear?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give us your full names?

THEMBA NAPHTAL KHUMALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, now you can sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Khumalo, you are also an applicant applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B section, Thokoza?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit, Sir?

MR KHUMALO: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was our commander?

MR KHUMALO: It Makasonke.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in incidents of violence that occurred at or about the year 1993, at your section?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those incidents?

MR KHUMALO: I used to assist Makasonke by contributing R2,00 and food, that is all.

ADV GCABASHE: Is that contributing or collecting from the community or did you contribute it personally?

MR KHUMALO: I used to collect money in preparation for purchasing food and we would also assist people who had fled their houses and we would bring people along to look over the houses and make sure that nothing is damaged.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct if I say that like in Mr Aaron Ngwenya's case, you were also involved in providing shelter in the houses that were left by people who belonged to the IFP?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved - let me put it like this, did you at any stage during this violence carry a weapon, be it a Scorpion or an AK47, shoot anybody?

MR KHUMALO: No, I was just involved in the collection of money to buy food for the community and taking care of the houses.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct, that unlike in Mr Aaron Ngwenya's case, you never kept any arms or ammunition at your place?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I did not keep any firearms.

MR SIBEKO: Will I further be correct if I say that your application is specifically for taking control or taking charge of people's houses and providing same to other people, whereas you didn't possess any authority to do that?

MR KHUMALO: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that your application is specifically for taking charge or control of the houses which were left by the members of the IFP, if I may put it like that?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, questions, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

The allocation of houses, you were not involved in dispossessing IFP members of their houses, you only allocated houses that were empty anyway, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct. We were just taking care of the houses to make sure that they were not damaged.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you ever put any of the operative SDU units into the houses? I will just use a quick example. For instance the houses at Khumalo Street, so that you could shoot into the hostels across the road. That is just as an example, but were you ever involved in giving SDU units that were on an operation housing?

MR KHUMALO: No, we were not operating in that section, we operated in the ANC section where IFP members had fled during the fighting. We would allocate people to these houses to take care of them.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you at any stage when you were with Makasonke Mhlope, involved in the discussions around where patrols should take place, what should be done by SDU members when they are confronted by opponents and so forth?

MR KHUMALO: We used to deal with houses specifically.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Khumalo. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

But you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Self Defence Unit that you were a member of, was it involved in fights with the opposition in the area, people with red headbands thought to have been members of the IFP?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, they were involved in such fightings.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were using firearms, AK47 rifles in those fights, to your knowledge?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, they were using these firearms, fighting was going on.

CHAIRPERSON: You agreed with the actions taken by the Self Defence Unit?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, for the one reason that the IFP was attacking ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were aware that in these fights your fellow members of the SDU could and possibly did injure and kill people from the opposition, in these fights?

MR KHUMALO: Would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that your fellow members of the Self Defence Unit in these fights with the opposition, could possibly use the firearms to kill and injure people?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, they were using firearms. It was a fighting situation, the IFP were also using firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understood you correctly, you supported this?

MR KHUMALO: I would say yes, I supported this because they were defending us.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just in regard to the houses, do you know how it came about that these houses were abandoned by the occupiers?

MR KHUMALO: They abandoned these houses because they were scared of dying. Some of them were members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Well those houses which were allocated by yourself, can we accept that they belonged to members or supporters of the IFP?

MR KHUMALO: They did not take these houses from IFP members, these houses were abandoned by members of the IFP. Some of them are back at those houses now.

CHAIRPERSON: But these occupiers abandoned the houses because of the fighting that was going on between their group and your group, not so?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So one can assume that those occupiers of these houses were ...(end of tape) ... conflict?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the people that you put in the houses were supporters of your side of the conflict?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct. What we were concerned about was to ensure that the houses are not damaged, that is why we had to allocate people in some of these houses.

CHAIRPERSON: But could you not do that simply by keeping an eye on the houses?

MR KHUMALO: We would not have done that because people would have had access and damaged the properties inside the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you support the idea that the IFP supporters ought, at that stage now, ought to have left the area?

MR KHUMALO: They just left their houses out of their own free will, they were not forced out by the community. They knew they were members of the IFP and they then left voluntarily.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is, were you happy with the fact that they had left that area? It doesn't matter how it came about, but just the mere fact that they had now left.

MR KHUMALO: We were not happy because it was a war situation, we were not happy about anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly, were you putting people inside the houses and were you erecting structures on the premises as well, for people to occupy?

MR KHUMALO: I did indicate earlier on that we allocated people into the houses that were vacated by IFP members and we also built some shacks in the backyards to accommodate other people.

CHAIRPERSON: So would it be correct to say that you had put more people into that area than the people who had left?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the intention, was this a temporary measure or was this a permanent measure or what?

MR KHUMALO: It was a tentative measure because we knew that there is a possibility that the owners of the houses might come back.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what would have happened, what would your attitude have been if the members of the, if the occupiers of those houses had returned, say shortly after having left, whilst the people that you had allocated these houses were still in occupation there? What would your attitude have been?

MR KHUMALO: Some of the owners of the houses are coming back, there is nothing that we are doing. If anybody comes back, that's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I understand that, that's a good thing but I'm talking about that stage, at that stage were you concerned to make sure that that particular area had as many people who supported your fight as possible and if any of the IFP supporters would have tried to return at that stage, say a day or two after having left, would you have resisted that?

MR KHUMALO: As I have explained, if anybody came back we would remove the ones we had allocated into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: And you'd break down the outbuildings and the structures that you had erected there?

MR KHUMALO: That would depend on whether the person is occupying the shack has alternative accommodation or not, that depended on time.

CHAIRPERSON: The only reason why I'm asking you is because if it was simply just to keep an eye on these houses and ensure that they are not damaged, it is a bit difficult to understand why you would erect a structure on the premises, instead of just putting a few people inside the house to keep an eye on it. Do you understand that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I do understand that. The number of shacks that were constructed here resulted from people who had fled elsewhere. You would have one or two shacks in one homestead.

CHAIRPERSON: And then just finally, the allocation of houses, the occupation of the premises and so forth, that was in line with decisions taken by the community and you were simply just executing those decision, would that be correct?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, it was the community that took the decision to the effect that there's a possibility that people would as time goes on, come back to their houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Only one aspect, Mr Chairman.

Mr Khumalo, were any of these houses given over to the Self Defence Unit members to be used as a base, the houses where their owners ran away as a result of a fear of violence? Were any of those houses given over to the Self Defence Unit members to be used as a base?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there were some few houses that were used as bases.

MR SIBEKO: I'm referring to the houses which you were allocating to people, the houses where their owners ran away as a result of the violence.

MR KHUMALO: No. Everybody who had fled his home would get it back as soon as he came back.

MR SIBEKO: That is understood, Sir. Okay, fine, maybe we'll understand one another here. The houses that were used as SDU bases or base, belonged to members of your community who were not supporters of the opposition, is that what you say?

MR KHUMALO: Would you please repeat the question, I do not quite understand?

MR SIBEKO: The SDU base were houses which belonged to the people whom I can say were also on your side, that is who were not IFP members, is that what you are saying?

MR KHUMALO: These houses, some of them should I say were houses that had been vacated by IFP members and some others were houses belonging to members of our community.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any further questions?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Khumalo, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Edgar Mhlope. He is from Lusaka-B. His application is on page 88.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlope, can you hear? Please stand and give us your full names.

MR MHLOPE: I am Edgar Mhlope.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a second christian name?

MR MHLOPE: Yes, it's Qoza Edgar Mhlope.

QOZA EDGAR MHLOPE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mhlope, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B, Thokoza?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR MHLOPE: It was Makasonke Mhlope.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit?

MR MHLOPE: It was 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Are you related to Makasonke?

MR MHLOPE: Yes, he is my younger brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me - what is his first name, just give it again?

MR MHLOPE: He is Makasonke, Makasonke Gerald Mhlope.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Were you involved in attacks or defensive actions where you carried an AK47 or any form of weapon which you used against the opposition?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about those incidents, Sir.

MR MHLOPE: The first incident happened at Givani near a school. Shacks were put up in that area and there were people residing there. I do not know where they came from. I woke up early, I think it was round about eight in the morning and I went to visit my friend Pheus and found him at his parents place and we went out to look for cigarettes at Givani.

I was residing at Mbele during that time. When we arrived in the other street, certain women showed up and they indicated that they were IFP members at the school. When we went to inspect there was someone who kept peeping, closing the door etc., and we went back to Makasonke to report to him.

He then gave us an AK47 and my friend was given a .38 pistol. We then went back and we came across two soldiers along the road or along the way. These soldiers came from Slovo. Their names are Madisi and Nati.

We went to the area to try and verify the information to the effect that they are IFP members. This person kept peeping through and we started firing. I think we must have fired about 10 rounds. Pheus also fired shots. I don't know how many times. This person then jumped a fence and fled.

We were not sure whether some people were remaining behind or not. We went in to inspect and when we arrived there were no people and we started setting the shacks on fire.

MR SIBEKO: Right. What you are telling ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get clarity on what happened here?

You went with Mfinos to buy cigarettes at Givani, yes?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: That is where some women told you that there were IFP members there, where? Where were the IFP members?

MR MHLOPE: They were at a school. There is a school at that street.

ADV GCABASHE: Were they erecting these shacks somewhere near the school?

MR MHLOPE: The shacks were already set up. The people were already taking occupation of these.

ADV GCABASHE: So the people who were occupying the shacks were said to be IFP members, that's what these women told you?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: So you went to see Makasonke and you got firearms from Makasonke?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now I'm not sure as to whether it was you and Mfinos, and I seem to have another person who then went back to fire at these people, can you just help me there. Just go over that evidence again. I know you were involved, Mfinos was involved, was there another person and what firearms did each one of you have? Can you just go over that again for me, thanks.

MR MHLOPE: Yes, there were two others, they were just walking past and they heard about this urgent attack and they came to assist. I was carrying an AK and Mfinos was carrying a pistol, a .38 pistol and these other two were also carrying their pistols.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did you meet these other two who joined you? Because you went to Makasonke, he gave you your firearms, where did you meet the other two?

MR MHLOPE: We came across them shortly after we had taken the firearms from Makasonke.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR SIBEKO: Now there's one thing that we've got to clarify here. When you met these ladies who told you that they were IFP members residing in those shacks, were you with Mfinos or Pheus? Is Mfinos and Pheus one and the same person?

MR MHLOPE: It was Pheus, not Mfinos. It was Alpheus Maseko.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, just repeat that, that name.

INTERPRETER: Mfinos - no, I'm sorry, Pheus, Alpheus, not Mfinos.

MR MHLOPE: His name is Alpheus Maseko.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now the four of you were armed at this stage, who amongst yourselves fired shots or did you fire shots all at once, that is all of you?

MR MHLOPE: No, I'm the one who started firing shots and the others followed suite, using their pistols.

MR SIBEKO: And your evidence is that that person that you saw got out of the shack, jumped over the fence and ran away, is that what you said?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You thereafter went to those shacks and looked inside and found that there was nobody else in any of those shacks, is that what you said?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Did you see whether the person who ran away got injured as a result of the shooting?

MR MHLOPE: I would not say because he ran away and we did not pursue him. We did not trust that he was alone.

MR SIBEKO: And then you said you burnt those shacks, all of them?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Did those shacks contain any movables inside?

MR MHLOPE: Yes, things like beds, TV sets, radios, things like that, furniture.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us exactly as to how many were those shacks?

MR MHLOPE: There were three of them close to one another.

MR SIBEKO: Is that the only incident you were involved in? Do you have any other incidents wherein you were involved?

MR MHLOPE: There is one other incident, the Buthelezi incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Just before you tell us about that, just give us a date. When was this, '93/'94? The shack incident.

MR MHLOPE: It was in 1993. I am not quite sure of the date, I cannot remember the month and the date.

MR SIBEKO: And then when did the incident at Buthelezi take place, are you in a position to tell us?

MR MHLOPE: Yes, yes. On that day, I think it was round about ten. I cannot remember on what day of the week it was but yes, it was in 1993. It was shortly after the first incident, a few days after that incident.

We received information to the effect that the IFP were attacking and soldiers who were present were myself and the deceased, Gushi, who was one of us. It therefore had to be us who had to take guns and run Buthelezi. We managed to quickly get hold of Makasonke who gave us firearms and we went up to Buthelezi.

We went to the second house and we were shooting these people from a distance of about 200 metres. Some people showed us where the IFP were, and they were charging into the township. We realised that they were indeed charging into the township and we exchanged gunshots or gunfire.

I think we must have spent about 30 minutes exchanging gunfire and thereafter the Stability Unit appeared and we fled. When I was just about to take a passage, a shortcut to the other street, I was cut by a corrugated iron and ...(intervention) Yes, I was cut by a corrugated iron and I was taken to hospital to be stitched.

MR SIBEKO: Alright. You got the information from - in fact, who gave you the information that there was an attack at Buthelezi?

MR MHLOPE: It's a certain young man from Slovo. He resides around Buthelezi.

MR SIBEKO: You went to fetch arms from Makasonke, who else was there when you went to Makasonke and who was carrying what?

MR MHLOPE: It was myself and Gushu, Gushi.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko.

What are the full names of Gushi, is it Gush or Gushu?

MR MHLOPE: It's Goshi: G-O-S-H-I.

MR SIBEKO: What were you carrying, Sir?

MR MHLOPE: I was carrying an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: And Goshi?

MR MHLOPE: He was not armed, he was waiting for me to give him the firearm in case I get tired or get injured.

MR SIBEKO: Then you went to Buthelezi Street where you were shown the house where the IFP people were based, is that what you said?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: So when the shootout started, that is when you arrived, will I be correct if I say that you were actually shooting or directing your shots towards that house?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You exchanged fire for about 30 minutes, are you in a position to say whether you injured or killed anybody from their side, that is the IFP's side?

MR MHLOPE: I would not say because a firearm is a lethal weapon. Yes, there might be people who got injured or died.

MR SIBEKO: And you acknowledge that those who might have died or got injured could have been as a result of your shooting, that is you specifically?

MR MHLOPE: Yes, I accept that.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to the AK that you were carrying ultimately?

MR MHLOPE: Are you referring to after the incident?

MR SIBEKO: Okay, let us start again. Did you use that AK continuously, throughout the era of violence until it finally came to an end?

MR MHLOPE: No, I did not use it thereafter because we did not have enough supply of these AK47s in the township. We used to share the AKs among ourselves and I also got injured ...(intervention)

MR SIBEKO: Would I be correct if I say that after this attack at Buthelezi you never carried any weapon whatsoever thereafter?

MR MHLOPE: Yes, I did not carry any firearm thereafter.

MR SIBEKO: You are applying for amnesty for your actions or acts at Givani, that is at this school that you referred to and then for your participation at Buthelezi Street, is that correct?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

You know there is one area where I didn't quite understand your evidence. If you could just help clarity this. It relates to the Buthelezi incident. I had written here that the IFP was charging into the township. Now a little later you confirmed that these people you were shooting at were inside a house. The

pictures in my mind don't quite - I've got something wrong somewhere. Where you shooting at a house or were you shooting at a group of people who were charging into the township? Just help me there.

MR MHLOPE: When we arrived they had already based in the house and there were some soldiers who were guarding around. These were people who were approaching, but they were already in the house when we arrived.

ADV GCABASHE: Now we have heard evidence of serious shooting at Buthelezi Street from other applicants, is this the same incident where there was this very serious, a massive fight at Buthelezi Street? Is it the same incident?

MR MHLOPE: This was really serious shooting because people were dying.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I rephrase that. Serious in the sense that there were very many SDU members involved in a fight with IFP member, so that it was quite widespread, there weren't just the two of you, there were other groups assisting you?

MR MHLOPE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you the first SDU unit to arrive at that place, or did the other units get there before you?

MR MHLOPE: No, there were others whom we met in that area already.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlope, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the luncheon adjournment at this stage. We're adjourned.

AMNESTY HEARING

CHAIRPERSON: The next application is that of Mr Alpheus Maseko, number AM 7085/97. It is in the Lusaka-B bundle, at page 40.

Mr Maseko, good afternoon. Can you hear me? Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record.

ALPHEUS MASEKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Maseko, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You were also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR MASEKO: Makasonke Mhlope.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: During 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents of violence whilst you were still a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about your involvement in such incidents?

MR MASEKO: As Qoza has already explained, we happened to attack Mkatizwe next to Givani. That attack indeed took place. We attacked the school, and the person that we were actually attacking was able to escape and we did not conduct a follow-up. He proceeded to Penduka section.

MR SIBEKO: Is this incident the one that occurred at Givani Street where Mr Edgar Qoza Mhlope was also involved?

MR MASEKO: That is correct, there are other incidents that I was involved in.

MR SIBEKO: I mean the one that you are referring to, Mkatizwe, is it the same one as Mr Edgar Mhlope, the last applicant before you?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you proceeded to burn the three shacks which were erected on the premises of the school after you have looked for any occupants?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether the person who ran away, who got out of the shack and jumped over the fence, whether that person was injured or not?

MR MASEKO: I have no clarity. We did shoot. I'm not sure whether he died or he got injured, but he was able to escape.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying a .38 revolver as Mr Mhlope has testified?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You knew at the time that your conduct was unlawful, that is carrying that arm without a licence, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I knew.

MR SIBEKO: You also knew that by you shooting any person, not only the person that you were shooting at, could have got injured or killed, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is true.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any other incidents which you would want to tell us about?

MR MASEKO: Yes, there are.

MR SIBEKO: Kindly proceed, Sir.

MR MASEKO: During 1993, my commander came to me and issued an instruction to me that there is a certain member of the IFP who stayed at Cartwright, Everest and we had to go and attack the person.

I started shooting, attacking him but he also shot back until I had to retreat ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where did this person live, the IFP person?

MR MASEKO: He was staying at Everest at that time, it was also called Cartwright, or is still called Cartwright.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat, will the Interpreter just repeat that, also called?

INTERPRETER: Cartwright or Everest.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us, what happened with this IFP member, what happened with this incident?

MR MASEKO: We got to his place of residence and this man came out. I think he saw me first and he started shooting first. I shot back. We exchanged gunfire and I realised that he was going to catch up with me, I had to retreat and run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Chair.

Are you in a position to tell us who that person was? Can you identify that person?

MR MASEKO: I discovered his name. I think after the attack I was told that his name is Mdakane and he is still alive. He was taken by the Stability Unit and I was asked as to why I did not kill him. I explained the problem that I encountered when I tried to attack him.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that name again of that person.

MR MASEKO: Mdakane: M-D-A-K-A-N-E.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you alone during this attack?

MR MASEKO: I was with Stambo but at that time Stambo was at another base. I don't know what happened at that particular base but I was alone when I confronted this man that I wanted to attack.

MR SIBEKO: Let us understand this clearly. When you went to Mr Mdakane's place, were you alone or were you with Stambo as you say?

MR MASEKO: I was with Stambo.

MR SIBEKO: The two of you were supposed to attack Mr Mdakane, is that what you are saying?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you exchanged fire with Mr Mdakane, was he inside his house or outside? Was he shooting maybe through the window or through the door or was he outside in the yard?

MR MASEKO: He was outside the house.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether Mr Mdakane got injured because I think you failed to kill him, is that so?

MR MASEKO: Because I was using a gun and shooting, my intention was to kill him because I had already been told that he was a member of the IFP, but I am sure that he got shot. I could say he got injured but I'm not sure as to whether he died.

MR SIBEKO: You say you are sure that he was hit by one or some of your bullets, are you in a position to say whether he got injured? That is what I'm interested in.

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure, I did not see him falling. As I've already said that he was also hitting back, that's when I turned my back away and ran.

MR SIBEKO: What type of arm were you carrying?

MR MASEKO: I had an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: What ultimately happened to that AK?

MR MASEKO: As I was running I threw it at some other shack, just outside that shack or house and ran back to my particular section. I don't know who picked it up at a later stage but I just left it there and ran away.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you were involved in?

MR MASEKO: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about it.

MR MASEKO: We received a call that we are supposed to go to Slovo section. We duly went there together with other soldiers that we worked with. When we got there we were told that we should base the area but our enemies did not approach, we just based there.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying a weapon on that particular day?

MR MASEKO: No, I did not have any weapon with me.

MR SIBEKO: Did you search anybody to look for arms of whatever nature? ...(end of tape)

MR MASEKO: ...(beginning of tape)

MR SIBEKO: ... applying for amnesty firstly for your involvement in the shootout with Mr Mdakane and then secondly with the shooting at Givani together with the arson that followed thereafter, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Sibeko, just one question from me. I see that next to his surname it's written 49493, what is it? Is it a prison number of what?

MR SIBEKO: Let me find out from him, Mr Chairman. We don't have any knowledge about this number, it's possible that it could be his ANC membership number.

ADV SANDI: Okay. He is not serving at the moment anyway, is he? According to the application forms there is no information to that effect.

MR SIBEKO: Not at all.

MR MASEKO: No, I've never been arrested.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Maseko, you possessed that AK47 at the time that you shot at Mr Mdakane, yes?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: So is it correct to assume that you are also applying for amnesty for the unlawful possession of that AK47 and any ammunition you may have had on you? Just to complete this.

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Then in relation to any other activities that you might have participated in, even indirectly, be it at meetings, be it talking to your commander, is there anything there that you want to incorporate in this amnesty application, where you may have assisted, anything that you may want to include?

MR MASEKO: No, there's nothing else I would like to incorporate.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Just in regard to the last incident that you referred to, the Slovo matter, the incident in Slovo. I have recorded your testimony as being that you were told to base in the area, can you just explain to us what happened here actually?

MR MASEKO: On that particular day when we were supposed to base, there was nothing that had happened before. Apparently our superiors were suspecting that something will happen but there was no shootout that occurred, no violence, nothing whatsoever. We just based and left when we realised that there was nothing going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you based there, what did you actually do?

MR MASEKO: A base is a place where if you were called as soldier to congregate at a certain point and be on the lookout for anything that will happen. We used to call that basing, basing the area.

CHAIRPERSON: So you congregated at a particular point in the Slovo section, ready to deal with any trouble that might occur or that was anticipated by your leaders but nothing actually happened, there was no trouble, and you simply just dispersed after a while there, is that what happened or what?

MR MASEKO: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko, thank you very much, you are excused.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, may I be excused now, Ms Nhlayisi will proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibeko, you are excused.

We will proceed with the next application but I want you to just put yourself on record first before we proceed to hear the next applicant.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, the name is Z N Nhlayisi, spelt: N-H-L-A-Y-I-S-I.

The first application is that of Wilfred Thabo Miya, amnesty application number AM 7341/97, on page 80, Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Nhlayisi.

Will Mr Miya come to the witness stand please. Mr Miya, please stand and give your full names for the record.

MR MIYA: My name is Wilfred Thabo Miya from Thokoza. I'm Thabo Wilfred Miya.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WIFRED THABO MIYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Miya, you're the applicant in this matter, you've applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MIYA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you a member of the SDUs, that is the Self Defence Units in Thokoza?

MR MIYA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Which year did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR MIYA: 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: Under whose command were you?

MR MIYA: During 1993?

MS NHLAYISI: At the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, who was your commander?

MR MIYA: Makasonke Mhlope.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any stage participate in any acts of violence during the time you were a member?

MR MIYA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific incidents that you remember which you wish to bring to the attention of this forum?

MR MIYA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Which incident do you want to bring to the attention of this forum, that you were involved in?

MR MIYA: When I joined the Self Defence Unit there was a certain man who got injured in my street. He was being assaulted and I joined in. I assaulted. That is when the Stability Unit appeared and we scattered and ran away.

MS NHLAYISI: You're saying that this incident occurred in your street, which street are you referring to?

MR MIYA: My street is Kakatu but this incident took place at Mbele Street.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you know this person that was stoned?

MR MIYA: No, I do not know his identity.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know why he was stoned?

MR MIYA: Yes, I do.

MS NHLAYISI: Could you tell this forum why he was stoned?

MR MIYA: Because he was a member of Inkatha and he was a hostel dweller but at the same time he had a shack within our own residential area. On that particular day he had come to pick up his belongings.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know perhaps what happened to this person? Did he die at the scene or what happened?

MR MIYA: I ran away when the Stability Unit appeared. He was writhing and screaming at that time.

MS NHLAYISI: Was he injured?

MR MIYA: Definitely, he should have been.

MS NHLAYISI: So you won't be in a position to tell whether at a later stage he died or what happened to him?

MR MIYA: No, I wouldn't be in a position to say what happened to him thereafter.

MS NHLAYISI: You're also saying that you did participate in stoning him.

MR MIYA: Yes, I did.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you wish to add relating to that particular incident?

MR MIYA: No, there's absolutely nothing. As I said, I picked up a gun, I kept it for two days.

MS NHLAYISI: Where did you pick this firearm?

MR MIYA: We took from a certain man who was being chased and that gun fell and we, I picked it up but my commander took it at a later stage.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any stage during those two days, use this firearm to shoot at somebody or to commit any act of violence?

MR MIYA: No, I never made use of the gun.

MS NHLAYISI: Why did the commander take it away from you?

MR MIYA: I wasn't experienced in the use of guns and he saw that I had a gun with, then he ordered me to hand it over and I did.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident that you can remember wherein you were involved except the two that you have just mentioned?

MR MIYA: I'm through, I've just exhausted whatever I did.

MS NHLAYISI: If I may remind you. During our consultation you referred to an incident which involved a person from Inkantla, would you mind telling this forum about that particular incident?

MR MIYA: This Inkantla issue, this man came to us whilst we were at Givani. He was coming from the Penduka section and there is a line of demarkation between ANC members as well as Inkatha members.

This person was moving from the Penduka section, heading towards us and asked us where the Kweseni industry was because he was looking for a job. He had earlier been phoned by his brother who said he will get him a job.

MS NHLAYISI: So after this particular person has asked for directions, what happened with him or what did you do with him?

MR MIYA: We said we were going to accompany him and show him a shortcut towards Kweseni. A group of people appeared, they searched him and he was in possession of an IFP membership card. They took him with and we went back.

MS NHLAYISI: You didn't do anything to this particular person, you left him with these other people?

MR MIYA: No, we never touched him, we never did anything to him. He was left with the other group.

MS NHLAYISI: You don't know what happened to him at a later stage? You don't have any knowledge of that?

MR MIYA: I have absolutely none.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you at any stage, Mr Miya, issued with a weapon?

MR MIYA: No.

MS NHLAYISI: What was your participation as the member of the Self Defence Unit without a firearm?

MR MIYA: It's because I wasn't able to use a gun I used to ferry food to the bases and check as to whether they were still intact.

MS NHLAYISI: So you were never issued with a firearm, as a result you never shot at anybody or ...(intervention)

MR MIYA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: So basically you are applying for amnesty for the incident that occurred at Mbele Street where somebody was stoned and the fact that at some stage you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm, that is the .38 special that you picked up, is that correct?

MR MIYA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: I observe, Mr Miya, that you are appearing here today in prison uniform, are you in prison for any of the activities in the Self Defence Unit?

MR MIYA: No.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Miya, this incident you've spoken about, where you say you took part in stoning a member of the IFP, who was with you then?

MR MIYA: There were a lot of people, even from neighbouring sections but the person I saw and I was able to identify was Stambo, the late Stambo.

ADV SANDI: The other incident where you say it was at Inkantla, you attacked a man there, do you know the people that were with you?

MR MIYA: I was together with other members of the community.

ADV SANDI: Are there any of them who have applied for amnesty, did you see any one of them appearing before this Committee?

MR MIYA: Yes, there is one.

ADV SANDI: Who was that?

MR MIYA: It's Darryl Khumalo.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: In fact, just to follow up and that. Yesterday we had evidence from Siphiwe Madondo who is also a Lusaka-B member, do you know him, Siphiwe?

MR MIYA: Yes, I do.

ADV GCABASHE: He too spoke of a man who had an IFP card who was trying to find his way to Kweseni, was he with you when you came across that Inkantla man?

MR MIYA: I don't remember because there were quite a lot of us.

ADV GCABASHE: But when that man was eventually attacked, you weren't there?

MR MIYA: No, I wasn't there.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayisi, any re-examination?

MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much.

Mr Miya, thank you, you are excused.

AMNESTY HEARING

NAME: CYRIL NDLONDLO BONGANI KHUMALO

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, the next application is application number 7658/97, Ndlondlo Cyril Khumalo, on page 119, Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, can you hear me? Please stand and give your full names for the record.

CYRIL NDLONDLO BONGANI KHUMALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?

EXAMINATION BY MR NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Khumalo, you have applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B at some stage?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: In which year did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR KHUMALO: During 1990.

MS NHLAYISI: Who was your commander?

MR KHUMALO: From 1990 we did not have a commander. At that time we still had problems with the Khumalo gang and we used to congregate as the community and barricade with stones so that they wouldn't gain access into the area. It's only during 1993 that Makasonke came and became our commander.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific incidents that you would like to be granted amnesty for, wherein you were involved in acts of violence against somebody?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: If you could mention them. Which is the first incident that you would like to bring to the attention of this forum?

MR KHUMALO: With regard to the Mbele section, there is a certain man who used to reside in the hostel or was a hostel dweller, who was involved with a resident within our area. He was a member of Inkatha and used to wear Inkatha T-shirts and at times he would coerce members of the community to join Inkatha.

He had a special sjambuck that he used to assault people who did not want to co-operate with him. We discovered at a later stage that he was a member of Inkatha, after having conduced this reign of terror, and we decided to kill this man. That is when we started assaulting him and we pelted him with stones. We heard the following day that he had been necklaced.

MS NHLAYISI: So this incident that you are mentioning, is it the same incident that was mentioned by the previous applicant, Thabo Miya, wherein somebody was stoned at Mbele Street? Are you referring to the same incident?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You mentioned that you discovered at a later stage that this particular person was eventually killed by some other people. You were not involved in the killing itself?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I wouldn't say I was involved in killing him, we only stoned him and ran away. At that time he was still screaming and he was still writhing. It's only the following day that I heard that he had been killed. As to who killed him, I have no clarity.

MS NHLAYISI: At the time of the stone throwing, did you observe whether he was injured?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, he had been injured because at the time that we assaulted him or threw stones at him, others were using iron rods and iron bars to assault him.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything that you wish to add regarding this particular incident?

MR KHUMALO: No, there isn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, just a minute.

Did you get that question, Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: No, we got the answer, he just said no.

CHAIRPERSON: And the question?

INTERPRETER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't get the question?

INTERPRETER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayisi, won't you just repeat that question, what happens is that as he is speaking they are translating and then when he is done they are still busy translating. Of course when he has stopped speaking, so you obviously don't hear it over the headphones. So they are still busy translating the answer so we've missed that question.

MS NHLAYISI: The last question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you wish to add regarding the incident at Mbele Street?

MR KHUMALO: Could you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want that question repeated?

INTERPRETER: Yes, please, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, okay. Ms Nhlayisi?

MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you wish to add regarding the incident at Mbele Street?

MR KHUMALO: No, there's nothing.

MS NHLAYISI: What's another incident wherein you were involved that you would like to bring to the attention of this forum?

MR KHUMALO: As Thabo had already pointed out, there is a certain man that we came across at Mkatize. He was coming from Penduka section. He was originally from Inkantla, who received from his brother saying that they had some employment for him, he should duly come to Johannesburg.

We accompanied him towards Kweseni hostel and there was a group of people from Mavimbela and the Radebe section who were patrolling the area. And we searched him, we saw the letter from his brother as well as the Inkatha membership card. At that stage the Stability Unit appeared and I ran away.

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Khumalo, apparently there is evidence before this forum that that particular person was eventually killed, did you participate in his killing?

MR KHUMALO: No, I was not involved. As I had already said, when the Stability Unit appeared I ran away.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know the identity of this particular person?

MR KHUMALO: I did not look at his membership card. I was not able to see his name or his identity. As soon as others saw that he was a member of the IFP, they started assaulting him.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there another incident wherein you were involved, except these two incidents that you have mentioned?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there is.

MS NHLAYISI: Please mention it.

MR KHUMALO: As members of the SDU we used to patrol during the day. As we were still patrolling the area called Ndabazimbi, there is a street called Givani Street where you are able to get a view of the whole area and people coming from the Inkatha section we were able to see.

When members of Inkatha wanted to attack the Slovo area. We would assist each other, people from the Slovo area as well as other areas. We went to help the people from Slovo section. We approached the section from Tshabalala Street.

We shot at each other and at the same time we took cover towards Khumalo Street. That is where we met them at Mshayazafe hostel. I took part in the shooting, shooting Inkatha members who were shooting at us through windows of the hostel.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you in possession of a firearm on that particular day?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, I had a gun in my possession.

MS NHLAYISI: What type of firearm did you have?

MR KHUMALO: I had a 9mm pistol.

MS NHLAYISI: Where did you get this pistol?

MR KHUMALO: I got it from Mhlope, that is my commander.

MS NHLAYISI: When you shot at these IFP people, as you've mentioned, did you observe whether you killed or injured anybody in the process?

MR KHUMALO: Not at all. I wouldn't be able to say that there was or there wasn't but if you have a gun and you are pulling the trigger, the intention is to kill or injure as the person has the same intentions.

MS NHLAYISI: So there is that possibility that in the incident at Mshayazafe where you shot, somebody might have been killed or injured in the process?

MR KHUMALO: That is highly probable.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you wish to add regarding this particular incident?

MR KHUMALO: No, there's nothing.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you at any stage issued with an AK47 during the time you were an SDU member?

MR KHUMALO: No, I've never been given an AK47.

MS NHLAYISI: What happened to this 9mm pistol that you had on the day of the incident at Mshayazafe?

MR KHUMALO: Another man was arrested in possession of the same 9mm because they had gone there to base the area but the police accosted them.

MS NHLAYISI: So in short you are applying for amnesty regarding the incident that happened at Mbele Street where a person was stoned and he was eventually killed, and the shooting that took place at Mshayazafe, wherein you shot at people, and the fact that at some stage you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Nhlayisi.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

This man you say was arrested in possession of the pistol, when was that?

MR KHUMALO: That was during 1993.

ADV SANDI: Is it you who had given this pistol to him?

MR KHUMALO: No, it wasn't me. As soon as I had used the gun I handed it over to the commander.

ADV SANDI: The pistol was given to you by Mhlope, when was that, when was it given to you?

MR KHUMALO: I think it was on a Monday when he gave me the firearm and round about Thursday he took it back.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to remember the month during which he gave the pistol to you? I suppose that was in 1993?

MR KHUMALO: I don't remember the month.

ADV SANDI: Roughly speaking, for how long would you say you were in possession of this firearm?

MR KHUMALO: I got it on a Monday, on Thursday it was taken.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Let's got back to the Mbele Street incident. You heard that this man had been necklaced?

MR KHUMALO: ...(no English translation)

ADV GCABASHE: The Mbele Street incident where the IFP member who wore a T-shirt and was forcing people to join the IFP was attacked. That is the incident I am referring to. Do you remember that evidence?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I do remember.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you pelted him with stones, you threw stones at him, yes?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But you also heard that he had been necklaced, you said?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct. I heard at a later stage that he had also been necklaced.

ADV GCABASHE: When you saw him lying on the ground writhing, you know twisting, was that before he was necklaced? You did not observe the necklacing at all?

MR KHUMALO: No, I did not.

ADV GCABASHE: You have also said that the ISU arrived and you fled, is that correct, at that incident or have I got that wrong?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, you got it right.

ADV GCABASHE: So somewhere between the ISU arriving and the following day, this man necklaced but you don't know what might have happened?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Now when you heard that this man had been necklaced, what was your attitude to that?

MR KHUMALO: Could you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: You say you subsequently heard that this man had been necklaced, did you think that those who had necklaced the man had done a good thing?

MR KHUMALO: I think it was a good thing that they burnt him because he was harassing the community, forcing members of the community to join Inkatha and he violated the rights of the members of the community. He saw himself as a law unto himself, so I was happy that he was eliminated.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Khumalo. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now between 1990 and 1993, you had no commander in the Self Defence Unit, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was there in fact a Self Defence Unit of which you were a member during that period, 1990 to 1993?

MR KHUMALO: At that stage there was no Self Defence Unit, it wasn't a structure that had been formed already but it was just a congregation of members of the community who were barricading the streets to prevent the entry of the attackers into the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it just an informal sort of an effort on the part of the Lusaka-B community to protect themselves against these attacks?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did the community at that stage protect itself, apart from barricading the streets?

MR KHUMALO: After barricading the streets, that meant that we had to use home-made petrol bombs and that meant that there were no taxis that got into the area and as a result people couldn't come in cars and large numbers to attack, they would have to come by foot and we would be able to throw petrol bombs at them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now during that period, were the attackers armed with firearms or how were they armed?

MR KHUMALO: They would be armed with firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: And the community, did it have no firearms at all, nobody on your side had firearms that could shoot back at these people?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, we didn't have any firearms at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there many attacks that were launched on your section, Lusaka-B, in this period that we are talking about, 1990 to 1993?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there were some attacks but at times they would attack during the day. They would be driving cars and conduct some drive-by shootings. During the day we would have no barricades.

CHAIRPERSON: The barricades, was it objects that you would put in the street to obstruct vehicles from travelling in the streets?

MR KHUMALO: During 1990 and 1991 we still used to have the very large dustbins and we would use them to form a barricade. At times we would also use large rocks and use them to barricade the area. At times we would collect tyres and make them into a heap and set them alight so as to prevent entry. ...(end of tape)

CHAIRPERSON: ... incidents where if these attackers come in, you would attack them back with petrol bombs?

MR KHUMALO: Unfortunately when we were prepared with petrol bombs so as to be able to protect ourselves, they never came because we used to do that during the night but they would come during the day unexpectedly when the barricades are not there, when the petrol bombs were not there, when we were not at all armed, and they would attack us successfully.

CHAIRPERSON: So in this period that we are talking about, were you ever involved in a fight with these attackers?

MR KHUMALO: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: During this period that we are referring to, 1990 to 1993, were you ever involved in any fight with these attackers?

MR KHUMALO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of any other of your comrades who were involved in such fights?

MR KHUMALO: No, I wouldn't know that because other people would congregate on their own accord and decide what they had to do. I cannot recall any instance offhand where people I knew were involved in such acts.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any member of the community in Lusaka-B who got killed there or that you witnessed, in this period 1990 to 1993?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there is a certain man who was my neighbour. He was also injured by the Khumalo gang. I think it was New Year's Eve and we thought it was firecrackers, only to find that he was being attacked by the Khumalo gang and he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not involved in that fight at all, were you?

MR KHUMALO: No, I was not involved because that did not take place at Lusaka-B, it took place at Slovo, but the person who was injured stayed in my section.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Nhlayisi, any re-examination?

MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Khumalo, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- MS NHLAYISI: The next application will be that of Sakkie Sakhile Maseko, amnesty application 7084/97, on page 32, Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko, can you hear?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand and give us your full names for the record please.

SAKKIE SAKHILE MASEKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Maseko, at some stage you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You have now applied for amnesty regarding the activities that you had at the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, sorry.

Mr Maseko, when you answer you just switch it on and you can just speak from where you sit. You don't have to go to close to it because it's very sensitive, it picks you up. So we will hear you but you don't need to close, sit where you are and just switch in on, right? Thank you. Please proceed, Ms Nhlayisi.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair.

When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: During the year 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you forced to join the Self Defence Unit or did you join voluntarily?

MR MASEKO: I wasn't forced, I joined voluntarily.

MS NHLAYISI: Under whose command were you at the time you were in the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: It was Makasonke Mhlope.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any stage participate in any acts of violence during the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you wish to mention those incidents where you participated?

MR MASEKO: It was during 1993, we were patrolling the area. As we were patrolling the area we heard five shots. As we were patrolling we heard some gunfire from the Slovo section. We were visited by Makasonke the commander, with a message that he received a call through the talk radios, that they were being attacked and they needed some assistance.

As a result Makasonke and I had to go to the Slovo section to offer our assistance and we discovered that the gunfire was going on. I had my AK with me and we joined the other comrades and we shot at the other members of the SPU, until such time as the Internal Stability Unit was there or called to the scene.

At that stage we dispersed. One of our members was shot by the police. I threw away the AK47 and rushed back to the area. That is the story.

MS NHLAYISI: Can you explain who were the people who were attacking at Slovo, when you were called that you should come and render assistance?

MR MASEKO: These were the members of Inkatha, who were called the Self Protection Unit.

MS NHLAYISI: You mentioned that you were in possession of an AK47, where did you get this firearm?

MR MASEKO: It had been given me by my commander, Mhlope.

MS NHLAYISI: During this incident when this shooting took place, did you observe whether you shot, killed or injured anybody?

MR MASEKO: No, I did not.

MS NHLAYISI: But you cannot rule out the possibility that somebody might have been killed or injured in this particular incident?

MR MASEKO: No, I cannot deny that.

MS NHLAYISI: You further mentioned that you dropped this AK47 as you were running away from the members of the Internal Stability Unit, did you go back to recover it or did you leave it there and you don't know what happened to it thereafter?

MR MASEKO: I never went back because one of our members died during that time and I was scared that I would also get killed.

MS NHLAYISI: So you don't know what happened to this particular firearm at all?

MR MASEKO: I have no idea.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident that you were involved in except this one at Slovo?

MR MASEKO: Yes, we used to barricade and conduct some patrols because we had the problem of attackers attacking during the night and forcing to us to go and attack the Xhosas, saying that the Xhosas were ANC members and therefore they had to be attacked.

MS NHLAYISI: So you were only involved in these incidents of barricading and no violence took place during those incidents?

MR MASEKO: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: So what you are applying for amnesty for is this particular incident at Slovo because you think you might have shot, killed or injured somebody and the fact that you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm and ammunition?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Maseko, I have the impression whenever I listen to everyone of you testifying, I have this impression that you were generally very inexperienced, in fact amateurish, very amateurish in the use of firearms, would I be correct in that impression?

MR MASEKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now tell me, as you would from time to time get into a confrontation with these members of the IFP and SPU, what was your impression, did you have the impression that these were people who were very skilful, very well trained in the use of arms? What was your impression about their level of ability to use firearms?

MR MASEKO: I would not be able to shed any light on that aspect because I've never actually had an opportunity to be close to them so as to observe them.

ADV SANDI: But what was the general prevailing attitude amongst members of the SDUs, was it the perception that you were fighting people who were much more trained, far better trained than you guys were?

MR MASEKO: Yes, when they come there they used to call themselves "Amabuto" and they would pride themselves in being experienced with regard to shooting. That is what they used to say.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that it was your impression that they were better off than you in terms of ability to use firearms, is that what you are saying?

MR MASEKO: I'm not able to say anything.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you, Mr Maseko. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, Mr Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Maseko, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we intend to adjourn the proceedings at this stage. There are some commitments that I have to attend to, which would necessitate us to leave at this stage. We'll adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning at 09H30. So we are adjourned until tomorrow morning at 09H30.