--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. I apologise for the late start this morning, but it was for reasons beyond our control, there was an electricity, power failure. Hopefully the electricity will be on uninterruptedly for the rest of the day.

We will be hearing the applications of Mr Mbutho and three others this morning, and then this afternoon, but before we start, I would like to introduce the Committee to you.

On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, a member of the Amnesty Committee. He is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, he is an attorney from Pretoria. I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge in the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court.

I would ask the legal representatives, please to place themselves on record.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, my name is E.M. Ngubane. I am representing the applicants, Gwenzawakhe Nicholas Msani, Palela Bekhisenzo Hlongwa and Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho and I intend calling them in that order.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MS THABETE: Thank you Chairperson and members of the Committee, my name is Tabile Thabete and I am the Evidence Leader in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. All the proceedings in the matter will be simultaneously translated and in order to benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound technician here in front. You've just got to choose the channel for your language, I presume it will be English and Zulu.

Channel 2 I am told is English, and channel 3 is Zulu. Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I ask for leave to call Gwenzawakhe Nicholas Msani.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is his application on?

MR NGUBANE: Page 74.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 74?

MR NGUBANE: That is page 74 - 76, sir.

MR LAX: Sorry, lady Interpreter, if you could just press the switch, we are hearing your Zulu translation coming through on channel 2.

INTERPRETER: I am on channel 3.

MR LAX: Okay, I am on channel 2 and I am still hearing you, without the English, maybe we can just sort that out quickly.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: At some stage you were a member of the United Democratic Front, is that correct?

MR MSANI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: When did you involve yourself in the activities of the United Democratic Front?

MR MSANI: In 1985.

MR NGUBANE: Before you could join the United Democratic Front, can you give us some indication regarding the status of your family. Did you grow up in a rich family, or your family was relatively poor?

MR MSANI: We were a poor family.

MR NGUBANE: Right, and then you joined ...

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't get the translation.

MR LAX: Sorry, if we can just, English will now be on channel 1. They have sorted out the technical problem. If you can retune your thing to channel 1, you will get the English only, and Zulu remains on channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the answer to the last question Mr Ngubane, whether he came from a rich or relatively poor family?

INTERPRETER: He said he came from a poor family.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. In 1985, could you describe to us the political situation as you perceived it, was it low profile political situation or was it explosive at that time?

MR MSANI: From around 1985, there was conflict at Macubeni between the UDF and the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us what the problem was what caused the fight between the UDF and the IFP?

MR MSANI: There was conflict between these two organisations, the UDF and the IFP, political tensions.

MR NGUBANE: Did you as a member of the United Democratic Front, participate in mass stay-away's and boycotts and strikes of some sort?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And what was the reaction of the IFP to your activities at that time?

MR MSANI: They did not see eye to eye with our organisation and they would attack and kill our comrades.

MR NGUBANE: Were there police in your area, Macubeni?

MR MSANI: Yes, there were.

MR NGUBANE: Were they the South African Police or the kwaZulu Police?

MR MSANI: I will explain it in this way. Macubeni is an SAP area, but there were ZP members involved in the area, who were assisting the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did you report the problems that you had with Inkatha, to the police?

MR MSANI: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: What was their attitude when you reported the problems?

MR MSANI: The police, the SAP and the kwaZulu Police were assisting Inkatha, they would not take any steps if we reported crimes against the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: When you say they assisted Inkatha, according to your observation, were there instances when these police physically accompanied the Inkatha people to attack you?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the witness is indicating that he didn't hear that question. Could you please repeat the question and see if there is a technical problem or whether he just missed it.

MR SIBANYONI: In fact Chairperson, we had the Zulu translation here, we are not supposed to hear it in our ears.

MR NGUBANE: Are you all right, can you hear now in the Zulu?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: The question that I had asked you, when you say that the police assisted Inkatha, were there any instances when the police would physically accompany Inkatha in the attacks that were directed at you?

MR LAX: He can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got a technical difficulty here with the sound system.

MR LAX: We can hear you on channel 1.

CHAIRPERSON: I am told we must go back to channel 2. Mr Ngubane, maybe third time lucky, could you repeat the question again please.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Mr Msani, when you say that the kwaZulu police were assisting Inkatha, were there instances when you would witness the kwaZulu police physically going with the Inkatha to attack you as the UDF?

MR LAX: He still can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Still can't hear.

MR LAX: Can you hear them now?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. The question was when you say that the kwaZulu police were assisting Inkatha, were there instances when you witnessed the kwaZulu police physically accompanying Inkatha to attack the United Democratic Front?

MR MSANI: Yes, there was a time at Macubeni where the ZP would attack us in broad daylight.

MR NGUBANE: Did that occur once or it occurred on several occasions?

MR MSANI: Many times.

MR NGUBANE: Were there people killed during the attacks by Inkatha?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did the situation continue to exist, I am just getting a Zulu translation once more, did this situation continue until 1990?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In your application you say that at some stage you became a member of the Self Defence Unit.

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall when that occurred?

MR MSANI: In the early part of 1990.

MR NGUBANE: Whose idea was it that there should be Self Defence Units?

MR MSANI: The command came from Mr Jeff Radebe.

MR NGUBANE: Was Jeff Radebe, what position did he hold?

MR MSANI: He was responsible for the formation of the SDU's.

MR NGUBANE: What organisation did he belong to according to your knowledge?

MR MSANI: He was an ANC member.

MR NGUBANE: At that stage, were you also an ANC member?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you also joined the Self Defence Units, is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: What was the purpose of the establishment of the SDU's?

MR MSANI: To protect the community and ANC members in the area.

MR NGUBANE: Against what?

MR MSANI: From the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Can you once again come and tell us why in your opinion, did you seek assistance from the police to protect you?

MR MSANI: It should be remembered that at the time the police were associated with the previous government of apartheid, and were assisting Inkatha.

MR NGUBANE: They were assisting Inkatha even in 1990 when you formed the SDU's?

MR MSANI: Yes, they were assisting Inkatha.

MR NGUBANE: And according to your evidence, all that you were doing,you were advancing the aims and objectives of the African National Congress?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: You have been advised that the Minister, Jeff Radebe, has submitted a supporting memorandum to the members of the Committee, that will be from page 9, is that correct?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And do you agree with his submissions which he made in that report?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And are you aware that he also has applied for amnesty?

MR MSANI: Yes. I learnt from the media whilst I was in prison.

MR NGUBANE: The members of the Committee has his application before them. I will read to you what is contained in that application, the relevant portions. That will be page 4, paragraph 10(a), first line and paragraph (b).

He says that all the operations detailed above, were carried out in accordance with the aims and objectives of the African National Congress. He goes on at paragraph (b) and he says the operations detailed in these applications were politically motivated, carried out within the context of the liberation struggle, aimed at our political opponent and committed at all times, with the approval of and within the policy guidelines of the African National Congress.

That statement, does it apply to the incident in respect of which you are making this application?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now, let's now turn to the incident itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ngubane, before you do that, which SDU did you join Mr Msani?

MR MSANI: Self Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, where, which one?

MR MSANI: The one that used to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but which area?

MR MSANI: At Macubeni, near Umkomaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just give an indication to us, the size of that unit.

MR MSANI: The youth was targeted, people who had courage and who were brave and people who would not divulge any information to the police, if they were caught.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately how many members did you have in your unit?

MR MSANI: About 20, if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you issued with firearms or any other weapons?

MR MSANI: The guns were not issued by Jeff Radebe, but the community used to pay out certain monies for us to be able to acquire guns and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Following what the Chairman has asked you, did you have a person who was directly in command of your Self Defence Unit?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Who was he?

MR MSANI: Bukela Luthuli.

MR NGUBANE: Was he holding the position of a Chairperson, or was the Chairperson a different person?

MR MSANI: He was our Commander.

MR NGUBANE: So the Chairperson of the ANC in your area, was a separate person from your Commander?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now, let's come to the incident where Sixtus Fana Mkhize was killed. Is it correct firstly that you are presently serving a 20 year sentence at Westville in connection with this incident?

Oh, okay, a problem with the Zulu again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we have again got a technical problem with the Zulu getting through to the applicant, or not getting through.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, is it correct that you are presently serving a sentence of 20 years at Westville?

MR MSANI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you convicted by the Supreme Court, the then Supreme Court of South Africa, in 1990?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall what date it was when you were convicted?

MR MSANI: 7th of August 1992.

MR NGUBANE: I see. And in that case, is it correct that you pleaded not guilty?

MR MSANI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you entered the witness box and gave evidence in that case?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And that evidence was at odds with what you are telling the members of the Committee now, is that correct?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you explain to the Committee the reason why, oh, firstly before I come to that, the evidence that you gave in the Supreme Court, was that the correct version of the incident?

MR MSANI: Some of the evidence was true, some was not because we regarded the Supreme Court as an institution of the old order, apartheid.

MR NGUBANE: Now, what you are going to tell us about this incident today, is that the truth, the whole truth?

MR MSANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just explain that last answer, Mr Msani. You said that some of the evidence you gave, was true and some was not because you regarded the Court as an institution of the old order.

The Court was an institution of the old order, but that doesn't explain why you partially told the truth and partially told an untruth. If you had no respect at all for that institution, why give evidence at all?

MR MSANI: We pleaded not guilty at the Supreme Court for the reason that because we did not regard the Supreme Court as a lawful Court.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you lied because you wanted to be released and you didn't care whether you lied or not as long as you were released, that was fine?

MR MSANI: That is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, and Sixtus Fana Mkhize, the deceased in that case, did you know him?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you know him since the days of 1985 when you joined the UDF?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: According to your knowledge, to what political organisation did he belong?

MR MSANI: IFP member.

MR NGUBANE: Was he also a businessman?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Was he a passive member of the IFP or was he a very active member?

MR MSANI: He was the facilitator, organiser of the IFP at Macubeni.

MR NGUBANE: When the attacks directed at the UDF took place, did he participate in any way?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you explain to the Committee how he participated?

MR MSANI: In that area, Mkhize would come accompanied by the ZP's and IFP members. They would be travelling in his car, a HiLux and they would come to attack us and they will shoot at people.

MR NGUBANE: Were people the only victims of that attack or was there any attacks directed to property?

MR MSANI: People were attacked, and houses were burnt down.

MR NGUBANE: Did that situation continue until 1990?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Before 1990, did you try to stop Mkhize from doing all these activities?

MR MSANI: Yes, we would try to stop him. When he came to the area, we used to exchange fire, we used to shoot at each other.

MR NGUBANE: Did he also shoot at you, or it was only the police that were shooting at you in his presence?

MR MSANI: Mr Mkhize as well as the police were shooting at us.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that because of the situation, there was a very deep seated hostility between you as the members of the SDU and Mr Mkhize as the Inkatha member?

MR MSANI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And in 1990, is it correct that you and the other applicants confronted Mr Mkhize?

MR MSANI: Please repeat the question.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you and the other applicants who are here before the Committee, confronted Mr Mkhize on the 7th of November 1990?

MR MSANI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us briefly how you came across him and whether there was any conspiracy to do anything evil to him?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: To start, at what time did you see Mr Mkhize on the 7th of November 1990?

MR MSANI: I was called van Fanie Mbutho from my home. He had come to inform me that Mr Mkhize was at his home. Because Mkhize had been giving us trouble, I took my gun and some ammunition and I left with Fanie and he went to fetch his gun as well.

Thereafter we met Mr Hlongwa as well as Jogolo, Jogolo Cele and Mabuno Hlongwa. I had a shotgun, Fanie had a shotgun as well. Palela had a home made gun, a shotgun, Mabuno also had a shotgun. Fanie Mbutho had a tomahawk, Jogolo Cele had a bush knife.

MR NGUBANE: Yes? And then did you proceed to where Sixtus Fana Mkhize was?

MR MSANI: Yes, we proceeded there and we confronted him there.

MR NGUBANE: The person that told you about Mr Mkhize was Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho, the third applicant, is that correct?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, you said Mbutho, you mean Cele?

MR MSANI: Mbutho.

MR LAX: Sorry, was Mbutho the one who told you about Mkhize?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay, I am getting confused now.

MR NGUBANE: Right, and you said that Mr Mkhize was at his home, is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Were there other people of his family that were there?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: When you arrived at his home, what happened?

MR MSANI: I and the comrades that I was with, Palela Hlongwa took Mbutho's gun and then Mbutho had the tomahawk.

We divided ourselves into two groups, Jogolo, Mabuno and Palela Hlongwa stood on the upper side of the house, and the other three stood on the lower end.

At the time, we found him sitting outside the door. I started shooting him. I shot at him, he did not fall down. Mabuno approached as well as Palela and they also started shooting.

Fanie Mbutho also came around and attacked him. At that time, he was laying down. The police and IFP members came and they chased us and we fled.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, we have talked about Mabuno, who is that one now? Is he one of the applicants or is he someone who is not before the Committee?

MR MSANI: The police could not apprehend him, we do not know where he is as of now.

MR NGUBANE: All right, when you say you shot Mr Mkhize, where about did you shoot him, do you know?

MR MSANI: In the stomach.

MR NGUBANE: How many times did you shoot him?

MR MSANI: Once.

MR NGUBANE: Did he fall when you shot him?

MR MSANI: He didn't fall instantly. He staggered. He didn't fall at this time, he tried to run away, and Palela and Mabuno came and shot at him, initially he used the bush knife.

MR NGUBANE: Did you or any of the applicants, attempt to shoot or injure any of the members of Mr Mkhize's family?

MR MSANI: No, we didn't, because we actually wanted himself. He is the one who was bothering us, there was no need for us to attack the family, because they didn't know anything, even the children and the entire family.

We wouldn't shoot them, because they were respectful. The family was respectful and they were in line with us. The entire house was in good terms with us. He was the only IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Now you reached a stage when the Inkatha and the police came and chased you away. Did you run away?

MR MSANI: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: And after running away, what did you do, did you hide or what was the position?

MR MSANI: When we were running away, we went to a place called Hlanzeni. At that time it was an ANC stronghold. We went there to hide there in the forest a bit. That is where we hid ourselves. The police were looking for us and they couldn't locate us.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that you were subsequently arrested?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: How many days after the incident, if you can recall?

MR MSANI: I was arrested in 1991, it was somewhere in July 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Msani, sorry Mr Ngubane, at approximately what time of the day, sorry, at approximately what time of the day did the, at approximately what time of the day did the attack take place on the deceased?

MR MSANI: It was on a Wednesday, on the 7th of November 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it daylight or night time?

MR MSANI: It was during the day at about ten o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in any way hide your face by wearing balaclavas or any such like item of head gear?

MR MSANI: Myself, I was wearing a head stetson, applicant Palela Hlongwa did not have balaclavas. Fanie Mbutho had a hat. Mabuno had a hat and Jogolo Cele had no hat.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, and then you have told the Committee that you appeared in court and you were convicted and sentenced to an effective term of imprisonment of 20 years, is that correct?

MR MSANI: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: And I will just read to you what the Judge said when he considered sentencing you, that will be on page 120, starting from line 9 to line 23 Mr Chairman.

The Judge said it is further clear that at the time there was hostility between members of the ANC and their supporters and members of the Inkatha Freedom Party. That situation existed then and it exists today to a perhaps even greater extent.

It is clear that there are many killings daily between members of these two factions. I do not suggest that this is the policy of either of the parties. What started as a political rivalry had however degenerated into a situation close to anarchy.

I have regard to the fact that these young men would obviously be influenced by these feelings that existed and were rife in the townships at the time, and it would appear from accused 1's mother's evidence, that there may have been a particular feeling of hostility against the deceased.

Firstly, accused 1 in that case, is it correct that it was Mr Palela Bekhisenzo Hlongwa, is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you have heard what I have read to you what the Judge said, is it a fair summary of the situation that took place in your area in Macubeni, is it right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: You have come here to apply for amnesty, is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Is there anything that you would like to, well, before I come to that, looking back at this incident in which you were involved, what are your feelings now that there is a relatively quiet political situation? Have you had time to reflect on the incident?

MR MSANI: Yes, I sympathise with the family. I apologise to the Mkhize family. I actually sympathise with almost everyone, the community, the IFP, the ANC because what we have been fighting for, we have actually achieved, that is our freedom. I sympathise with the Mkhize family.

MR NGUBANE: Have you or anyone of the applicants, made attempts to get contact with the family members of the deceased?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Right, just tell us what attempts have been made to get contact with the families of the deceased?

MR MSANI: Palela Hlongwa kept in contact with the Welfare, to be in touch with the Mkhize family so that we can talk and apologise about what happened to the Mkhize family.

In that sense Mr Mkhize said she has some questions for us. However, he didn't actually explain or elaborate which questions she would like to ask us as we are arrested.

MR NGUBANE: If the family would like to pose certain questions to you, are you prepared to answer those questions in a frank manner?

MR MSANI: Yes, we are.

MR NGUBANE: Now, an argument might be advanced that you are applying for amnesty simply because you want to be out of jail and you have no regard for the family. What would be your comment to that?

MR MSANI: According to my wish, I would actually like to see the Mkhize family, not necessarily that I want to be out of jail, but I wish to apologise to the Mkhize family and let bygone's by bygone's during the conflict between the IFP and the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: I see. Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Msani, in your application at 11(b), page 71 of the bundle, you were asked who gave an instruction, and you said not applicable. And today Mr Ngubane asked you who was your direct Commander and you said it is Bukela Luthuli. Can you explain to the Committee why you never gave that name before?

MR MSANI: During the application, in that application that I filled in, I was in jail. You will actually remember that my mind don't function properly in jail.

That is why actually I did not give, that I did not explain and elaborate. I was not filling the forms by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody in fact give you an instruction to kill the deceased?

MR MSANI: No.

MS THABETE: So, what did Bukela Luthuli do?

MR MSANI: Bukela was the Commander, our Commander.

MS THABETE: And then in your application, at number 9(1)(i), page 66 of the bundle, you mention Pelelani Bekhisenzo Hlongwa and Gwenzawakhe Msani and then at 10(b) of your application, page 69 of the bundle, you mention Jogolo Cele. Can you also explain to the Committee why you have never mentioned Mabuno Hlongwa before?

MR MSANI: During the application, I actually included these three names as were the people that we were arrested together with here.

MR LAX: Sorry before you go on, I don't understand your answer. You were asked why you didn't mention the person's name, you still haven't explained that as far as I can hear.

MR MSANI: I explained initially that during the application, I included the names of the people that we were arrested with. The police did not actually charge him, he was outside.

That is why I did not include him.

MR LAX: Are you saying you did not include him because he was not convicted with you?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: But you did understand that you were supposed to tell the full truth when you filled out this application?

MR MSANI: Yes, I did explain initially that in jail, the brain doesn't function properly when we are in jail. We are like children when we are in jail.

The brain is actually sort of disturbed to a certain extent when you are in jail.

MS THABETE: Just a follow up question Mr Msani, you are still in jail, isn't it?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is your brain, can we assume that your brain is functioning properly right now?

MR MSANI: Yes, it functions properly.

MS THABETE: Mr Ngubane says in court, part of what you said was the truth, and part of what you said, was a lie. Can you just explain briefly, which part was the truth and which part was a lie in what you said in court? Just briefly?

MR MSANI: In court, to deny it was a lie, we denied everything because of the situation that I initially explained.

Secondly in court, I have explained that how did I perceive the Court.

MR LAX: You don't answer the question, what was true about what you said in court? You said some of it was lies, we can understand that if you are denying something, you would lie about that, but you also said that part of it was the truth.

What truth did you tell in court?

MR MSANI: In court in the box, when I was giving evidence, there was like that the IPF was attacking us because it was evident that we have lost the case. I agreed that the IPF actually killed our brothers and I can't remember the rest.

MR LAX: But in court you denied that you had anything to do with the ANC, you denied that you were UDF? That was your defence, you denied it completely.

MR MSANI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR LAX: So you didn't admit that you were ANC there, you didn't admit that these people were attacking you. You in fact said you weren't even there? You knew nothing about this. This was your defence?

MR MSANI: I did agree that the case, we actually denied it.

MR LAX: Please continue Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: You say Mr Mbutho came to you and told you that you must go and kill Mr Mkhize. Is that correct?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did you ask him how he came about that decision, like did you question him why he reached the decision that Mr Mkhize should be killed?

MR MSANI: The applicant Fanie Mbutho was no longer staying at his place, because it was nearby the IFP stronghold. We have been trying for several times to kill Mkhize, but in vain.

We have been shooting at him and actually throwing stones at him, but in vain. It was not that on that day we actually took a decision on that particular day, we have been trying for several times to shoot at him.

MS THABETE: I just want to rephrase what you are saying, would it be correct for me to say you had reached the decision to kill Mr Mkhize a long time ago?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Okay. My last question to you, you say you shot Mr Mkhize, is that all you did when he was killed?

MR MSANI: Myself, I shot him, he ran away. I initially explained that Palela Hlongwa and Mabuno actually shot as well, and I actually took the bush knife from Jogolo Cele and then I hit him because he was still moving by then. Then I struck him, using the knife and then I ran away because the police were by then approaching.

CHAIRPERSON: On which part of the body did you strike the deceased with the bush knife?

MR MSANI: At the head, at the head.

MS THABETE: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Mr Ngubane, do you have any re-examination?

MR NGUBANE: I have none, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson. Tell me did you know this police from kwaZulu by name whom you were saying that they were assisting Inkatha to attack you?

MR MSANI: Well, I wouldn't know all of them, but I knew some of them by surnames, but not all of them.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, you said you reported them, but nothing was done. When you were making such reports, did you give specific names of the police who were involved?

MR MSANI: In brief, Jogolo was also an accused and who is dead, was killed by IFP, was killed by the ZP and Mr Mkhize.

Then we left at the same time with other comrades, to the police at Umkomaas, we met the police on our way. There was a container, a special container where police were, but we were referring to the police at Umkomaas, we left there and then to report the case that Mr Mkhize and the ZP are actually shooting at us and the IFP members were amongst them.

Jogolo, the late Jogolo, was also shot. We went to the police. There were two SAP's who were Indians inside the van. The police then, the shop was already burnt. We went with the police, we went to the tuck shop, as we were approaching, they were in their white HiLux, in a van. We followed.

The police actually used the sign, the police sign. We actually tried to stop the HiLux, but the HiLux didn't stop until we reached it near by the supermarket, near by Ward 6. The police asked him why did he shoot Jogolo.

And he said these kids are shooting and actually showed that the windscreen was shot. What was done by the police there, it was evident to me that the police are actually working together with the IFP. They took me there and then and they said they will charge this people at Umkomaas.

Then they said ...

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, if I can interrupt you. All I wanted to find out is when you were complaining, was there a stage when you were able to furnish names of the police who were involved, or it was difficult to furnish names?

MR MSANI: It is difficult, but one police did agree that he is ZP. I can't remember the surname.

MR SIBANYONI: Before Mkhize was killed, was there a stage where you sat down and took a decision that he should be killed, or was there any person who made that suggestion, who issued an order that Mkhize should be killed? How did it happen?

MR MSANI: We met at a place, at a hill, a sort of a hill place. We held a meeting there and strategised how to attack Mkhize and we knew that he had a gun and he had the official gun and then there and there we left to attack him.

MR SIBANYONI: Who were within that group of the people who met?

MR MSANI: These are the comrades, Palela Hlongwa, Fanie Mbutho, Jogolo, Mabuno Hlongwa and the rest did not actually go there, because there were five of us.

The others went back, they did not go to attack.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you referring on the day he was killed, or are you referring on the first attempted attack on him?

MR MSANI: I am referring to the day when we killed, attacked him.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, on those previous incidents where you said you tried to attack him, but you were unsuccessful, was there any decision taken that he should be attacked and killed?

MR MSANI: I will briefly say that there was a decision that all of us, the comrades in defence, that Mkhize must actually be killed, because he was troubling us. Him with the rest, but Mkhize was our main man and he was born in that area, as he has relocated.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what Mr Sibanyoni wants to know is can you recall when that decision was taken? The decision to kill Mr Mkhize, the deceased?

MR MSANI: I can't quite remember, it is just that it was on several times that we have tried to attack him.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question. You said you didn't furnish the name of Mbutho, I didn't understand you properly. Is the reason that your mind was not functioning well at the prison, or what was the reason why you didn't give all the names when you were asked to fill out that form? What is the reason?

MR MSANI: I will put it that I forgot, I would say that I forgot. I actually thought that I included all three. I must have forgotten.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Msani, how exactly did you join the SDU?

MR MSANI: In 1990 when the ANC was unbanned, Bukela Luthuli came from a meeting where Jeff Radebe was there and the other ANC leaders were there, they came and told us the message that here at Macubeni as the IFP is troubling us and attacking us left and right, we are just in the middle of the IFP, Jeff said we should take the youth who is brave and has courage - you will actually forgive me, I stammer.

The youth who was courageous and brave, should be chosen who would actually protect the community and would actually use the ammunition and in a meeting, which was at the mini camp, we were actually supposed to leave and go to be trained at transkei, but we couldn't go because it was too much violence, we couldn't leave for our training.

MR LAX: You have told us that you became involved in the UDF from 1985 and that there was violence in your area from that time onwards. Is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Were you involved in resisting that violence and defending your community from that time?

MR MSANI: Yes, I was involved.

MR LAX: These other applicants and the people who were accused with you, were they also involved in that from that time?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: How did you organise your defence during the 1980's?

MR MSANI: During that time, in 1980, we didn't have weapons or ammunition, we used home made guns, petrol and stones to protect the community and as well the community used to assist us because Macubeni was an IFP stronghold.

MR LAX: So the group of people that became the SDU, already existed before 1990?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: You have told us you didn't actually go for training as such?

MR MSANI: Well, we couldn't go for training as I have explained because of the situation of the violence, we couldn't leave for Transkei.

MR LAX: What was the ANC's policies that you acted under?

MR MSANI: It said we should protect ourselves. We shouldn't loot, that is the ANC's policy.

MR LAX: Is that it? You shouldn't loot and you must protect yourselves?

MR MSANI: And we should fight discrimination or apartheid, protect ourselves, fight against the apartheid and the IFP who was actually attacking us and disturbing us and actually in conflict with the ANC.

MR LAX: How did you fight against apartheid?

MR MSANI: By having masses and organising ourselves, using buses at (indistinct) and we actually go to town and actually deliver our complaints.

MR LAX: So you got involved in mass action, is that what you are saying?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: You see Mr Ngubani read you a portion of Mr Radebe's submission and he said that all your actions were carried out under the policies of the ANC, but it is clear to me that you don't really know the policies of the ANC in any great detail. You didn't have training, you didn't have political education, how did you know those policies?

Do you understand my question?

MR MSANI: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Please explain.

MR MSANI: ANC policy, we would attend workshops.

MR LAX: But you didn't attend any workshops dealing with the policies in relation to the SDU's, you didn't even have training as an SDU?

MR MSANI: The SDU were not just the official unit, because the IFP was protected officially with the ZP, so we were the underground defence.

The community knew that we were protecting it to a certain extent but it was not officially, like the IFP.

MR LAX: You see, I want to take you back to the point that I am getting at which is a really simple matter, and that is you agreed with Mr Ngubane when he read the portion of Mr Radebe's submission, that all your actions were carried out under the policies of the ANC. Do you remember that?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that you don't really know what the ANC's policies were with regard to SDU's and in that capacity, you couldn't have been acting under the policies of the ANC?

I am not saying you weren't acting in good faith, I am saying you couldn't have known the ANC's policies, because you had never been trained in them. Do you understand? It is really a simple issue?

MR MSANI: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: No further questions Chairperson. Sorry, there is just one other aspect. You said that you were the first person to shoot, is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: And you shot the deceased in the stomach or in the region of the stomach?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: You indicated towards his torso, the front part of his torso?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: And you said that he didn't fall down, but he ran away?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Did he run or did he stagger?

MR MSANI: He took a few steps and Mabuno and Hlongwa and Palela came and shot him and he was stabbed with the bush knife, those who didn't have guns.

MR LAX: Yes, let's just slow down there. Mabuno came, Hlongwa came and they shot him. Where did they shoot him?

MR MSANI: Mabuno actually shot almost in the front part, just on the body in front as he is indicating.

MR LAX: Yes, and Hlongwa?

MR MSANI: And he also shot.

MR LAX: Where?

MR MSANI: I can't quite remember where, but I quite remember. I quite remember Mabuno, I can't remember that because he was red with blood. I can't quite remember.

MR LAX: Now at this point, did they shoot him immediately one after the other, was it very quick?

MR MSANI: yes.

MR LAX: And when what did he do? Did he fall down at that stage, the deceased?

MR MSANI: He did not die at that particular time.

MR LAX: I did not ask whether he died, I said did he fall down?

MR MSANI: He fell down nearby his place, about a few steps away from his house.

MR LAX: Was he laying on the ground when you hit him with the axe, with the tomahawk?

MR MSANI: Yes, he was.

MR LAX: Was it a tomahawk or was it a bush knife?

MR MSANI: I have explained initially that bush was carried by Jogolo Cele and then I took it from him and then I said, because he is still alive, Fanie Mbutho had the tomahawk and he was also using it, and I wasn't aware where did he hit him with this tomahawk.

MR LAX: You see, is that what, did he wrestle with anybody, the deceased?

MR MSANI: He tried to fight back, because when I approached shooting, he tried to hold the gun but then I knew, because I knew that he always carried a gun because he has the gun that is official.

MR LAX: Which gun did he try and hold? His own gun or your gun?

MR MSANI: He tried to hold my shotgun.

MR LAX: Did he try to take it away from you?

MR MSANI: He was trying to hold the barrel because we found him sitting down, he was trying to hold that barrel and then I shot him at that particular time.

MR LAX: You see, what I don't understand is the evidence in the court was that he was wrestling with you for your gun, he was trying to take it away from you and someone else came and him on the hands where he was holding the gun, either with the bush knife or with the tomahawk and you haven't told us anything about that, why?

MR MSANI: The TRC Committee, I did not actually understand the question that I should actually explain up to that extent. I am talking about my side, what part did I play.

MR LAX: Apart from the - how many times did you hit him on the head?

MR MSANI: Twice with the bush knife.

MR LAX: Did anyone else hit him while he was laying on the ground?

MR MSANI: Yes, Fanie Mbutho used the tomahawk, fingers and most of the parts of the body and Jogolo as well.

MR LAX: How could Jogolo hit him if you had his bush knife?

MR MSANI: I have explained that the bush knife, I used it when he was down there, just before he died. After shooting him, while he was laying down nearby, that is when I took the bush knife from Jogolo Cele, who is the accused who is late.

MR LAX: I see. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Msani is there any reason why before you and your co-perpetrators attacked the deceased, that you didn't go to your Commander Mr Luthuli to report to him that you were going to kill a person?

MR MSANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that reason?

MR MSANI: Mr Luthuli was a working person at that particular time. It was during the week on a Wednesday and he wasn't around.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for my information, what was Mr Luthuli's first name?

MR MSANI: Bukela Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just spell that please?

MR MSANI: Bukela.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what was Mabuno's full name?

MR MSANI: It is just Mabuno Hlongwa, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: At one place, one place in your evidence Mr Msani, you said that when you went to attack the deceased, three of you went to the top end of the house and three of you stayed at the bottom end of the house, and then later on in your evidence, you said that five of you went to attack. What is the position, were there six of you or were there five of you at the attack on Mr Mkhize?

MR MSANI: We were five.

CHAIRPERSON: Finally, when you shot Mr Mkhize in the stomach, approximately how far away were you from him when you fired the shot? If you could just indicate the distance in this hall?

MR MSANI: I would actually say the Mkhize's house would be a white square, then a round house, there is a road nearby which actually leads to Mkhize's tuck shop and there was a tree and the door was, the rondawel, he was sitting there at that door.

It was nearby, he wasn't that far, it was close.

CHAIRPERSON: About as far as that fan is from you?

MR MSANI: Yes, he wasn't that far. We were nearby, close range?

CHAIRPERSON: Plus minus four or five paces.

MR MSANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ngubani, do you have any questions rising out of questions that were put by members of the Committee?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman, just one question. Luthuli, the Commander, was he aware that you were on the hunt for Mr Mkhize?

MR MSANI: Yes, he did.

MR NGUBANE: Are you of the opinion that if you had approached him immediately before you could kill Mr Mkhize, he would have no doubt agreed that you should go ahead?

MR MSANI: Yes, I think so. I think he wouldn't agree because it was not the ANC's aim that we should kill people.

But it was the situation that forced us to fight IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. Can you, you say the objective if I understand you correctly, was to protect yourselves or the ANC's policies was that you should protect yourselves. How were you expected to protect yourselves?

MR MSANI: We were expected that in the area that we live, if the IFP comes burning the houses, shooting us, attacking us, we should come out with our guns and retaliate and shoot back.

MS THABETE: I am asking this question because you just said now it was not the ANC's aim for you to kill people. Can you clarify what you meant by that?

MR MSANI: Yes, I can. I will explain that the ANC, it wasn't its aim to kill people, their political opponents. The ANC's aim was to fight the nationalist government.

Any ANC member, bottom or up, knew that if you are ANC, you shouldn't attack your political opponent, but because of the situation, we were forced to kill each other, IFP and ANC because a lot of people were killed, it was the situation that forced us to do that.

MS THABETE: Where is Mr Bukela Luthuli right now?

MR MSANI: I wouldn't say where he is, because I have been in jail for a long time, but I know he is outside. He is working, the last time I knew about him, he was working, but I wouldn't say where he is as it is, because I am in jail.

MS THABETE: Where was he staying at that time, and where was he working?

MR MSANI: At Macubeni.

MS THABETE: And where was he working?

MR MSANI: In a contract, SICOR contract, he wasn't a full time, or permanent, he was in a contract with SICOR.

MR LAX: Is that SICOR, that is the big factory at Umkomaas?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, just one question, sorry I should have raised it earlier, where about did you get your weapon from, your gun?

MR MSANI: I initially explained that the guns, the defence guns, we used to get them through donations. The money that we used to collect by the community and the ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get your gun from?

MR MSANI: I have indicated that it wasn't my gun, it was the community's gun to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had it in your possession when Mbutho came?

MR MSANI: Yes, I was the one who was using it on that particular day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: If I could just follow up there, yes it is true it may have been the community's gun, and it was used by a number of different people, but you had it at your home, not so? That is what you told us?

MR MSANI: Yes, the guns, we used to hide them away from the soldiers, because there were soldiers who were actually guarding the situation. They would actually distribute the guns, it would be on reliable people like myself, I had a gun with me, not a shotgun, but just a gun, that we were using, they were home made and small guns, who were distributed amongst people because we couldn't put them in a centralised place because of the police.

MR LAX: We understand that, we fully understand that there were constant searches for firearms by the police and by the army and all sorts of people. The question is though, who gave you the gun? Who did you get it from, I can't understand why you won't tell us? If you are here to tell us the truth, you must tell us who gave you the gun, it is really quite simple?

MR MSANI: The person who actually showed us, it was Bukela Luthuli, as the person who was a Commander, the one who was in charge.

He is the one who was in charge of the guns.

MR LAX: So did he decide who was allocated which firearms?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: When the community collected money for firearms, did they give the money to him, did he acquire the firearms for you, whether they were home made, whether they were shotguns, whether they were handguns, was he the one that organised that they should be bought somewhere or obtained somewhere or whatever? That is what we are trying to understand?

MR MSANI: It was a secret, he didn't, the community was not supposed to know all that because the spies would tell.

MR LAX: The issue is, did he organise all of that? Yes or no?

MR MSANI: Yes, he is the one.

MR LAX: Now, one last issue, and I am sorry I didn't raise it earlier, it slipped my mind. The attack on Jogolo, the attack in which Jogolo was shot, and he wasn't killed when he was shot, happened before this attack on Mkhize, is that right?

MR MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Some people might argue that you killed Mkhize out of revenge for the attack on Cele, on Jogolo. How do you respond to that?

MR MSANI: Well, I wouldn't say that. We were protecting ourselves and the community and the ANC members, we were not revenging at all, because a lot of people were dying there.

MR LAX: Well you see, in your application and I refer you to the translation at page 75, 10(b), you used the word revenge. You say the IFP had attacked us before, and we also did this to revenge on the political situation?

Those were your precise words there, and if you want to you can read the Zulu, it will be on page - he wrote it in English himself. Sorry, it has just been clarified to me, just to put it on the record that this is actually your application as well, not a translation.

Page 75, 10(b) you yourself used the words revenge there?

MR MSANI: I will explain to the Amnesty Committee that these forms, I was not writing them myself, Ms Zulu was filling in the forms on my behalf, who is working there, because English is not my mother tongue, that is how she put it, she put it as though it was revenge. I would apologise in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ngubane, any questions arising out of this last set of questions from the Committee?

MR NGUBANE: No, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Msani, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR MSANI: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I have been requested to adjourn slightly earlier for the lunch adjournment and the lunch adjournment will last until quarter past two.

We will take that slightly extended lunch adjournment now and recommence at quarter past two, with the continuation of this application. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the lunch adjournment, we have just concluded with the testimony of Mr Msani. Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I call Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho please.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 57, I think? Mr Mbutho, can you put on your earphones please.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, I made an error here, in fact, it is supposed to be Hlongwa who is the next applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Hlongwa sitting next to you?

PALELA BEKHISENZO HLONGWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwa, you are also the applicant here, and you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Were you born in Umkomaas on the 7th of July 1972?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you grew up there until the time of your arrest, is that correct?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you attend school?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: What level of education did you attend?

MR HLONGWA: Standard 4.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall when that was?

MR HLONGWA: That was in 1990.

MR NGUBANE: The year when you attained standard 4, I don't mean the date of your arrest, can you recall or can't you recall?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, 1990.

MR NGUBANE: What school did you attend?

MR HLONGWA: I last attended school at Macubeni school, but I went to two different schools.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, the first school that you attended, can you recall what year that was?

MR HLONGWA: I last attended that school in 1989.

MR NGUBANE: What school was that?

MR HLONGWA: Opakheni.

MR NGUBANE: Were you at any stage involved with any political organisation or party?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall when it was approximately?

MR HLONGWA: In 1985.

MR NGUBANE: What political organisation did you participate in in 1985?

MR HLONGWA: The United Democratic Front, UDF.

MR NGUBANE: Did you hold any position in the organisation at that stage or at a subsequent stage?

MR HLONGWA: No.

MR NGUBANE: You were just an ordinary member, is that correct?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In 1985, we have heard that there was a fight between the UDF and the Inkatha Freedom Party, do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And Mr Sixtus Fana Mkhize was a member of Inkatha and he was a prominent member, the organiser and he participated with the police in the attack on the UDF, do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: You have heard the evidence of Nicholas Msani, regarding the activities of Mr Mkhize during the period 1985 to 1990. Do you consider Mr Msani's evidence as being true and correct in all respects?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Do you specifically confirm that Mr Fana Mkhize, the deceased, participated in the killing of the people and the destruction of property, the people that belonged to the UDF?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In 1990 you heard that there were SDU's formed, Self Defence Units formed. Are you aware of the formation of the SDU's?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Were you at any stage a member of the SDU's?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Was it in 1990 that you became a member?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: We have heard that the purpose of the SDU was to protect the society because the UDF people could not protect, could not be protected by the police, the police participated with the attack, with the IFP, is that correct?

MR HLONGWA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Msani has given evidence that at some stage there was a decision taken to eliminate the deceased, Mr Mkhize. Are you aware of that decision?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And he also gave evidence that attempts were made on Mr Mkhize's life on several occasions, were you part of those attempts to eliminate Mr Mkhize?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In 1990, the 7th of November, we have heard that Mr Mkhize was attacked and you were part of the group that attacked Mr Mkhize. Was that evidence correct?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: We have heard that you and the other applicants attacked him. What was your role, you specifically when Mr Mkhize was attacked?

MR HLONGWA: I shot at him.

MR NGUBANE: With what did you shoot him?

MR HLONGWA: A gun.

MR NGUBANE: A factory made firearm or was it a home made firearm?

MR HLONGWA: A home made gun.

MR NGUBANE: Where did you get that gun from?

MR HLONGWA: I got it from Fanie, Mr Mbutho.

MR NGUBANE: That is the gentleman that is the third applicant, the one that is going to testify after you, is that correct?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: When you shot at the deceased, can you recall how many shots you fired at him?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, I do.

MR NGUBANE: How many?

MR HLONGWA: Once.

MR NGUBANE: Where about on his body if you can recall?

MR HLONGWA: It was on the back although I cannot point out specifically where, because he was already injured when I shot at him.

MR NGUBANE: But when you shot at him, is it correct that he was still alive?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, he was still alive.

MR NGUBANE: Did you inflict any further injuries on the deceased on that very same day?

MR HLONGWA: No, that was the first instance.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, after you had shot him, did you assault him further in any manner?

MR HLONGWA: No.

MR NGUBANE: After you had shot him and after he had been hacked, what happened?

MR HLONGWA: We fled the area because police approached and IFP members as well, so we fled and we hid in the forest.

MR NGUBANE: I see. When you did that, Mr Msani has given evidence that he believed that he was acting within the realm of the call of the ANC, do you also confirm that?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you hope that once Mr Mkhize had been eliminated, there would be, the violence that was perpetrated against the UDF, would subside?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, I thought so because he was one of the people who troubled us a lot in the area. Therefore I thought that if he could be removed, we would be able to work progressively, because he was one of the people who actually wanted to prevent us from conducting our political work.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that as you are sitting here, you have been convicted to undergo a period of imprisonment of 20 years?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you were convicted by the Supreme Court of South Africa in 1992?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you hear when a portion of what the Judge said in the High Court, was read out to Mr Msani that there was hostility between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party and that that led to hostility created in you against the deceased and inter alia that that hostility might have influenced you to commit this crime, did you hear that?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Do you confirm that the position sketched out by the Honourable Judge is more or less the true position of what happened?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: You realise that what you did was wrong, against the family and the community of South Africa as such?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Do you wish to say something about your actions and do you have a message to the family of the deceased?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you say what you wish to say?

MR HLONGWA: What I wish to say, I wish the Mkhize family was present so that they could hear what I am saying.

What I did to them, was wrong and I wish to apologise for that.

MR NGUBANE: Are you prepared to meet them on a man to man basis and apologise to them?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, very much. I would appreciate that.

MR NGUBANE: Have you made any attempts to meet them at any stage?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us what attempts you have made and what the result was of those attempts?

MR HLONGWA: At Westville prison, I attempted to get into contact with the Mkhize family. It was not easy but I contacted the Welfare section in the prison and they were able to telephone the family.

I had once telephoned them myself, but I also asked the Social Worker to telephone the family. The Social Worker did this, and they discussed with the family, although I don't know how I can take our discussions further, but I have made that contact.

MR NGUBANE: When you made that contact, were you doing that on your behalf and on behalf of the other two applicants?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Do you feel sorry about what you have done, killing the deceased?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: If you were not involved in politics, would you have killed the deceased?

MR HLONGWA: No.

MR NGUBANE: We have heard evidence that when you killed the deceased, the members of his family were also present and did you attempt to kill them at any stage?

MR HLONGWA: No.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Just a few Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwa, can you briefly tell the Committee members, how did you join the SDU and what procedure did you go through when you joined the SDU?

MR HLONGWA: There were discussions between ANC leaders. It transpired that there were no people who protected the community, because the police could not protect the community, especially people who were ANC aligned.

There was an agreement then that people should be chosen to protect the community. We therefore met with those people who had been to that meeting, and we were elected to form this branch or to form this unit.

MS THABETE: Can you go back a little bit, who elected you?

MR HLONGWA: Bukela Luthuli, he was the person responsible for that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what you mean, you were selected rather than elected. You were chosen or appointed rather than elected?

MS THABETE: You say Mr Mkhize, the deceased, was responsible for attacking the ANC. Did he used to attack the ANC by himself or were there other people who he usually attacked the ANC with?

MR HLONGWA: He would be in the company of other people.

MS THABETE: So following that question, was Mr Mkhize the only person you targeted out of all the people that attacked you?

MR HLONGWA: No. He is not the only person who was targeted, but he was one of the people whom we had targeted to remove.

MS THABETE: Just as a matter of interest and for the record, you say you have tried to contact the deceased's next of kin, who did you speak to?

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you managed yourself to telephone the family. When you yourself telephoned the family, do you know who you spoke to?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that?

MR HLONGWA: At the first instance, I requested to speak to that family's elder boy. I tried a second time, because I wanted to speak to him specifically and I spoke to his mother, and she told me that he no longer resided at home.

Therefore I went to the Social Worker and asked them to speak to the mother because I didn't think that she would appreciate talking to me.

MS THABETE: You say you phoned to speak to the son of the deceased, is that correct?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, I understood you to be saying that you spoke to not the son of the deceased, but the son of the family, the oldest son of the family. Can you clarify that please?

MR HLONGWA: It was Nana, the family's eldest boy.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the, who was the eldest boy's father, was that the deceased or the deceased's father?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, the father is the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: The deceased that you killed?

MR HLONGWA: Yes.

MS THABETE: Do you know his name?

MR HLONGWA: Yes, I do.

MS THABETE: What is his name?

MR HLONGWA: Fanana Sixtus Mkhize.

MS THABETE: No, I am referring to the son of Fanana Sixtus Mkhize, the one you wanted to speak to?

MR HLONGWA: Nanana Mkhize.

MS THABETE: What did you want to say to him, if I may ask?

MR HLONGWA: I wanted to request him that if he could maybe come see me in the prison, so that I could talk to him, because I deeply regretted what I had done to their family.

I wanted them to meet me so that they could realise that I was indeed very sorry and remorseful about what I had done.

MS THABETE: Approximately how old would he be, the son of Sixtus, Nanana?

MR HLONGWA: Although I cannot be certain, he may be about 24, 26.

MS THABETE: No more questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwa, by the killing of the deceased, Mr Mkhize, what did you people intend to achieve?

MR HLONGWA: We would not have benefitted much, but we wanted to be able to work freely or progressively in our organisation, because he was one of the people who attacked our organisation, who wished to remove our organisation's members.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR LAX: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hlongwa, that concludes - sorry, Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising out of questions put by Mr Sibanyoni?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlongwa, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, may I ask for leave to call Mr Mbutho.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 57. Mr Mbutho, please put the earphones on.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Ngubane?

EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbutho, you were born on the 14th of March 1971 at Umkomaas in kwaZulu-Natal, is that correct?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: When you were arrested in 1990, did you reside in this area and did you regard that as your permanent home?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In your application you say that at some stage, in 1985 to 1990, there was a clash between the UDF and the IFP. Did you belong to any of these organisations during that period?

MR MBUTHO: I was the UDF member.

MR NGUBANE: When did you become a UDF member?

MR MBUTHO: In 1985.

MR NGUBANE: Did you become a member of the UDF until the ANC was unbanned in or about 1990?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And before I lead you on further evidence, I noticed that on page 58, paragraph 9(4) you say - well, what you say has been interpreted in English as I had stabbed him with a tomahawk, the one I carried when I was in court but in Zulu, at page 66, you say that the tomahawk you carried, was when the case or the incident happened, is that correct?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: When you say you were carrying the tomahawk when the case happened, you used the word "icala", did you mean when you were in court or when Mr Mkhize was killed?

MR MBUTHO: When he was killed.

MR NGUBANE: All right, let's to back now. You have heard evidence of the applicants that went before you, to the effect that there was violence in your area, between the IFP and the UDF in 1985 to 1990, is that evidence correct?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: And you have heard the role that was played by the deceased, as the IFP man and as one of the people that attacked, do you confirm what has been said by the two applicants?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, I confirm that is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Do you also confirm that there was at some stage a decision to eliminate him together with other people who were troublesome to the United Democratic Front?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: On the - would you have been part of that decision if you were not involved in political activities?

MR MBUTHO: No, I wouldn't.

MR NGUBANE: On the 7th of November 1990, you participated in the killing of the deceased, is that right?

MR MBUTHO: Yes. It is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: What was your role when the deceased was killed?

MR MBUTHO: I used the weapon, a tomahawk weapon.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage, well, how did you use this weapon, the tomahawk?

MR MBUTHO: After the other applicants had shot him, I actually contributed by using the tomahawk.

MR NGUBANE: I noticed that at page 58, paragraph 9(4) in English it is interpreted as I had stabbed him with a tomahawk, but in Zulu you used the word "namtagula" which means you hacked him. Is the Zulu inscription correct or is the English translation correct?

MR MBUTHO: It is the Zulu version.

MR NGUBANE: In other words, you didn't stab him, you hacked him with the tomahawk?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Right, can you explain to these Honourable members of the Committee, at what stage did you use this tomahawk to injure the deceased?

MR MBUTHO: I used the tomahawk after he was shot.

MR NGUBANE: Was he laying down or was he sitting, what was the position?

MR MBUTHO: By that time, he was trying to protect himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he laying down or was he standing u?

MR MBUTHO: He was falling and also standing up?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. How many times did you hack him with the tomahawk?

MR MBUTHO: Several times, I can't quite remember.

MR NGUBANE: Where about on his body did you hack him, can you recall?

MR MBUTHO: On the head and also on the hands.

MR NGUBANE: I see. Was there a stage when you tried to chop off his hands as he was wrestling with the firearm that was in the possession of one of the applicants?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And was your purpose in doing that, were you trying to make him let loose the firearm that he was grabbing and trying to dispossess?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, indeed.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. You have heard the other applicants indicating that they would not have killed the deceased if they were not doing that in order to advance the standing of the ANC. Does that apply to you?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is like that.

MR NGUBANE: Did you hope that by eliminating Mr Mkhize, you would somehow let the attack on the UDF subside to a certain extent?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, I had that hope.

MR NGUBANE: We have heard the evidence of Mr Hlongwa saying that he has on his behalf and on your behalf, tried to contact the families of the deceased. Is it also a wish to contact the families of the deceased?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: And do you have a message for them for what you did?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, if they were here, what would you have wished to tell them?

MR MBUTHO: If they were here, I would actually reveal that I sympathise with them.

MR NGUBANE: Would you be prepared to meet them and express your remorse to them?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Since you have told the truth about the incident, as to how the incident happened, can you tell the Committee how you feel after having told the truth?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Please do so.

MR MBUTHO: I feel free, if I am able to speak like this.

MR NGUBANE: Do you accordingly apply that you be granted amnesty and do you submit that your actions were politically motivated and you did those actions with a specific purpose of advancing a political objective?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Where did you get the tomahawk from that you hacked Mr Mkhize with?

MR MBUTHO: It was mine.

MR NGUBANE: I see. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Three questions Mr Chair. Mr Mbutho, would it be correct for me to say Mr Msani, Mr Hlongwa and Jogolo Cele were your friends?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MS THABETE: Yes, they were your friends?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, both of them.

MS THABETE: Did anyone give you an instruction or an order to go and kill Mr Sixtus Mkhize? I am asking you this question because according to the other people, the other applicants, you are the one that went to them to tell them that Mr Mkhize was in the area. Had anyone given you an instruction to go and kill Mr Mkhize?

MR MBUTHO: No one.

MS THABETE: Why did you choose Mr Hlongwa, Mr Msani and Mr Cele, why did you choose them specifically, especially because you say they were your friends, to go and kill Mr Mkhize?

MR MBUTHO: Those are the people who were nearby my place.

MS THABETE: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: None Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson. Mr Mbutho, why didn't you use your shotgun?

MR MBUTHO: By the time I arrived at Palela, he didn't have a weapon at that particular time.

MR LAX: So are you saying that you gave your shotgun to him?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR LAX: Where did you get the shotgun from?

MR MBUTHO: It was mine.

MR LAX: Yes, but where did you get it from?

MR MBUTHO: I made it myself.

MR LAX: It was a home made firearm then?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it was home made.

MR LAX: You see, when Mr Msani gave his evidence, he spoke of two shotguns and one home made firearm. He didn't say yours was a home made firearm, he said Palela's was a home made firearm.

MR MBUTHO: The one that was carried by Palela, was mine.

MR LAX: But you see, he spoke about three firearms. He said he had his shotgun, you had your shotgun and Palela had a home made firearm, shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: My note on this said and I am reading from my notes on Mr Msani's evidence, I had a shotgun, that is Msani, as did Mbutho. Mbutho also had a tomahawk. Cele had a bush knife and then Palela took Mbutho's gun, we divided into two groups.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I could quite easily have misheard it. You didn't shoot the deceased at all?

MR MBUTHO: Not at all.

MR LAX: Where did you get the ammunition for your firearm?

MR MBUTHO: The ammunition for the gun?

MR LAX: Correct?

MR MBUTHO: We used to get that from the community.

MR LAX: Well, who in the community would give it to you?

MR MBUTHO: If I didn't have bullets or ammunition, I would actually go to other comrades and ask for help.

MR LAX: Yes, but why are you not telling us who you went to?

MR MBUTHO: There is a lot of people that I actually went to.

MR LAX: I am just getting the impression that you are not willing to tell us who the people are.

MR MBUTHO: No, it is not like that.

MR LAX: When this SDU was formed, you heard me say to Mr Msani that it was basically a continuation of a previous group of young people, who had already been defending the community, is that right?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: So there was nothing special about being an SDU, you had already been doing this for a number of years?

MR MBUTHO: Will you repeat your question?

MR LAX: There was nothing special about being an SDU, you had already been doing this kind of work, for a number of years?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, why haven't you applied for amnesty for any other acts that you have committed besides this one that you have been convicted for?

MR MBUTHO: This is the first one that I was involved, directly involved.

MR LAX: So you weren't involved in any other attacks on any other people on defending yourself and your community against any other people, in all the time from 1985 till 1990 and going on until you were arrested? Are you seriously telling us that?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, indeed.

MR LAX: So what sort of SDU were you involved in then if this was the only incident that you were involved in? Was there no violence in the area?

MR MBUTHO: There was violence.

MR LAX: But you weren't involved in it?

MR MBUTHO: No, I wasn't.

MR LAX: No further questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbutho, what was the approximate age of the deceased?

MR MBUTHO: I would actually estimate it at 40 something.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Committee?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you. You have been asked the question who were the people that you got the ammunition from. The question is not confined to the ammunition that was used to Mr Mkhize. Can you recall at any stage, acquiring ammunition from some other people and are there any people that you can recall from whom you acquired this ammunition?

MR MBUTHO: It is has been a long time.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, can you recall anyone of them that gave you a firearm, sorry the ammunition?

MR MBUTHO: I don't remember any one.

MR NGUBANE: Did you buy it or was it given to you for free?

MR MBUTHO: No, it was for free.

MR NGUBANE: Did Mr Luthuli, the Commander at any stage, give you ammunition?

MR MBUTHO: Will you repeat the question?

MR NGUBANE: The Commander of the SDU, Mr Luthuli, did he at any stage give you ammunition, if you can recall?

MR MBUTHO: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: Would Mr Chair just allow me to make a follow up on the question I asked earlier on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, and then I will give Mr Ngubane another chance if there is something arising from it.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbutho, what would you respond to a statement which says that because Mr Msani and them were your friends, and because Mr Mkhize had attacked Jogolo Cele before, you saw Mr Mkhize, you approached your friends, you decided to go and revenge and kill him. What would be your response to that statement?

MR MBUTHO: It wasn't necessarily revenge.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean it wasn't necessarily revenge?

MR MBUTHO: I say so because we were just attacking each other, both sides.

MS THABETE: So I would be correct to say the main aim for you attacking Mr Fanana Mkhize, was not because he had attacked Mr Jogolo Cele who happened to be your friend?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, that is the truth.

MS THABETE: No further questions.

MR LAX: You see in your application, if you look at the translation at page 60, 10(b) at page 60, you say here that Sixtus was attacking us with his followers. The deceased had shot one of us, claiming that he had burnt his store. That must be a reference to Cele and unfortunately for them, Cele didn't die.

That is correct, isn't it?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR LAX: You then go on to say that on the 7th of November the deceased had come to our place, visiting his mother. We then caught him and stabbed him to death. That looks and sounds very much like revenge for having shot Cele and that is the way you have put it here?

You go on to say that the reason you didn't attack the family is that some of them were our members. It looks to me from what you have said here, and again it might be a problem with the translation, but you can correct me if I am wrong, that the reason you were looking for this man in particular, was that he had shot Cele and he never managed to kill him. What do you say to that?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, Mkhize was involved in the shooting of Cele, but when we took a decision to kill him, it wasn't due to the fact that he shot Cele, but it was that he was attacking us, he was with the ZP's and the IFP's.

Also at Cele, it would be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbutho, approximately before the 7th of November, that is the day that the deceased died, was the attack by the deceased upon Mr Cele carried out?

MR MBUTHO: Cele was attacked early 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was some months before the death of the deceased?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, but I wouldn't actually be sure how many months, but to a certain extent, some months.

MR LAX: In your reply to the question, when you took a decision to kill him, when exactly did you take this decision to kill him, was it on that day, was it before that? Explain to us please.

MR MBUTHO: It has been a long time that we have been attacking him, but in vain.

MR LAX: You still haven't answered my question, when did you take that decision to kill him?

MR MBUTHO: We took it on that particular day.

MR LAX: Who is the we?

MR MBUTHO: It is myself and the other two applicants and the others, who did not apply.

MR LAX: Where were you when you took that decision, and how did it come about, did you meet, did you have a discussion before you went to Mkhize's family's house?

MR MBUTHO: We didn't have a meeting, however, we just had a quick conversation that Mkhize was seen.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MR MBUTHO: Thereafter I actually approached or I actually contacted applicant Msani and then we met. We conversed because what actually frightened us is that Mkhize was on foot, but most of the time, whenever he was going to a place, he would be in a car with some IFP members.

MR LAX: Are you saying that you and Msani had a discussion and you and Msani took this decision?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, jointly, all of us.

MR LAX: Well, you see, you have only told us about you and Msani having a conversation. You haven't told us where the other conversation happened, that is why I am asking you to explain this.

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is applicant Msani, Hlongwa, Mabuno Hlongwa and Jogolo Cele.

MR LAX: What I am trying to understand is, where did the five of you or the six of you meet, the five of you meet to make this decision?

MR MBUTHO: We met on the route.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbutho, you say that before you could kill Mr Mkhize, you had made several attempts to kill him, is that correct?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: And on those occasions, was there already a decision to kill Mr Mkhize?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And when you met on the day that you killed him, that was a confirmation of the previously existent decision to kill Mr Mkhize, is that correct?

MR MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Right. You have been asked about what you say at paragraph 10(b) because what is said there, seems to create the impression that the only reason that you killed Mr Mkhize, was that he had shot Mr Cele.

At page 59, paragraph 10(a) under state political objective sought to be achieved, you mentioned that there was a clash between the ANC and the IFP, Mr Sixtus Mkhize was leading IFP and they were attacking us together with the ZP. Was that one of the reasons that made you kill Mr Mkhize?

MR MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbutho, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down now.

MR MBUTHO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that concludes the application for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No further witnesses?

MS THABETE: No further witnesses. Mr Chair, maybe I should put it on record that the victims' next of kin, the deceased's wife was notified of the hearings, but she expressed the fact that she wouldn't like to come.

But I spoke to her this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you know if Mr Luthuli was given notification at all?

MS THABETE: Mr Luthuli was not given notification, because it is the first time that we hear about him, at this hearing Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Then perhaps a notification in terms of Section 32 might be in order, although the implication doesn't - his implication in this particular event is somewhat remote, because he was unaware that this incident was going to take place before it happening, in that no one reported to him, but in the sense that he is being named as the leader, perhaps he should be given a notice in terms of that. Thank you.

MS THABETE: I will see to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ngubane, are you in a position to present a submission to us now, to argue?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, I submit that the applicants have made out a case. As far as I understand, they have to show that their actions were politically motivated firstly.

I submit that it is not disputed that they were ANC members, UDF members initially. It is also not disputed that during the course of their membership as UDF members, they were recruited to become the members of the SDU's.

I do concede that their recruitment might have been done in an amateurish manner, but nevertheless, I respectfully submit that they were members of the Self Defence Unit.

The story that Mr Mkhize was participating with the kwaZulu police cannot be regarded as being improbable. I respectfully submit that the TRC hearings are full of that history of the kwaZulu police collaborating with Inkatha and I respectfully submit that what the applicants have said, should be taken as the truth.

Regarding disclosure, I submit that in so far as relevant facts are concerned, they have fully disclosed their activities in the killing of the deceased. They have done so in great detail. Although I concede that there is an aspect by the last applicant, Mr Mbutho which seems to be unsatisfactorily, that he didn't indicate who the people he got the ammunition from, were.

But I submit that compared to the overall picture of what he has given to the members of the Committee, he has made a full disclosure and his failure to give the names of the people that gave him firearms, could be attributed to a lapse of memory.

This incident happened in 1992 and this man has been in jail, he has been thinking about some other things and I respectfully urge that his lapse on that score, should not be held against him.

The evidence has been led and the members of the Committee are apprised of the evidence, and I respectfully submit that to run through all the evidence would be a waste of time, unless there are specific questions which the Committee wishes me to respond to, I cannot take my argument further than this, thank you.

MR LAX: Just one thing maybe, you can address us on Mr Ngubane, and that is one of the applicants indicated in his testimony when asked whether they had got Luthuli's permission to do this thing, that the answer was that he would never have approved it because it was against ANC policy to kill opponents. Just in the light of that answer, maybe you could address us.

MR NGUBANE: Honourable member of the Committee, I do agree that this answer seems not to fall in square with what they have been testifying.

But the applicant went further and said that although it was not ANC policy to attack people, the circumstances were such that they had to defend themselves, and from that I gathered that by defending themselves in his mind, it was created that they could kill people if it was necessary.

I do submit that they were told to defend themselves, it seems that that was not defined and it was left carelessly to their discretion to decide what to do, although they knew that the policy was not to kill, but circumstances were such that they decided to kill people, and they understood that as defending themselves. That is all that I can submit here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Thabete, do you have any submissions?

MS THABETE IN ARGUMENT: Briefly Mr Chair. Firstly I would like to put it on record that I don't have any objections, to them being granted amnesty.

Secondly, I think there is a very thin line between two situations here. One scenario is that it is possible that the applicants saw, or it is possible that the deceased had attacked the applicants before, who were ANC and the deceased was IFP.

The deceased came to visit his mum, the applicants saw him, they decided to kill him. It might have been a revenge. That is one scenario.

The second scenario is of course that from the judgement, even from the evidence of some witnesses, I am reading at page 107 of our bundle, where one of the State witnesses did make an indication that the deceased was an IFP member, it would appear that the situation really was one where there was political conflict in the area between the IFP and ANC at Macubeni.

This was not an unusual situation, especially in kwaZulu Natal, where you would find that the ANC would attack the IFP and the IFP would attack the ANC. Basically my submission is that I wouldn't have any objections should the Committee decide anyhow, I would abide.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Any response Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: I have none, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter, and hope that it will be handed down in the near future, in a written form. Thank you.

That then concludes the roll for today.

MS THABETE: It concludes the roll for today Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter for tomorrow Ms Thabete, is that on course?

MS THABETE: The matters for tomorrow, it is six applicants. I will give you the applications of that too, it is Alfred Mandla Mhlambo, Xolani Braveman Tsotetsi, Mzwandile Justice Magula, Hector Makendanis Kakane. We have also added the application of Tulani Zondi and Xolani Pungula, but it is one incident, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What time would you suggest would be an appropriate starting time?

MS THABETE: I would suggest half past nine.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That then brings us to the end of today's proceedings. We will be hearing other applications tomorrow morning in this hall, the same venue and we will start at half past nine tomorrow morning. We accordingly then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning at this hall, thank you very much.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.