______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed I'd wish to address the public, in particular the applicants. We adjourned this hearing yesterday earlier than we should have. Are the interpreters interpreting to the public?

INTERPRETER: Yes we do.

CHAIRPERSON: The reasons for yesterday's premature adjournment was that we needed a particular type of interpreter. This hearing was adjourned till nine o'clock this morning. It is now ten to ten. I speak on behalf of the panel. We are not very happy about that. Since this meeting was scheduled to begin last Monday on the 23rd November 1998 there has been niggling problems with having to get people to testify, nonetheless important and the preparations for these hearings. We get the impression that there are certain people who wish to take the control of this process away from the institution of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and run these hearings at their convenience. I am not going to allow that. Let me make it clear right now that we do not think we are the beneficiaries of any favours by sitting here and listening to these applications and making decisions on the evidence that we hear. We are completing our work for which we were appointed.

I wish to point out also that from the records that we have been given it seems that most of the applicants in this hearing are free people. While their rights to amnesty are important, in my view and I speak for myself, compared to other people's rights people still find themselves in prison, their rights are not that important. This Committee has I understand until the middle of next year to complete all the hearings. If we carry on as we are doing now we are not going to get to the end by the middle of next year and I dare say that there may be people who are still in prison who may find themselves not being able to exercise their rights in obtaining amnesty and the reason for that would be niggling issues such as those that I have mentioned. I am not going to tolerate any delays any more from now on. I trust that my views are taken in the spirit that they are intended and it is to be hoped also that there won't be any further delays in these hearings. Thank you.

MR SHEIN: Mr Commissioner, I represent three people, three applicants who are present this morning. Joseph Parkson Gaelatse, Sidney Siphiwe Nemaorani and Hahlomolo Israel Mabote.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't you refer us or Ms Patel could you refer us to the volume and the pages?

MS PATEL: Gaelatse, Honourable Chairperson, is in Volume 3 page 68 to 74.

ADV DE JAGER: Any of the others?

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, who else has my learned friend mentioned?

ADV DE JAGER: Repeat the names please?

MR SHEIN: Joseph Parkson Gaelatse.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes that's Volume 3 pages 68 to 74.

MR SHEIN: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes and then the next one?

MR SHEIN: The next applicant present is Sidney Siphiwe Nemaorani.

MS PATEL: Okay that's bundle 3 as well, pages 75 to 81.

MR SHEIN: And Hahlomolo Israel Mabote.

MS PATEL: Same bundle, 96 to 103. Sorry, my learned friend has not placed himself on record yet.

MR SHEIN: I am Lawley Shein representing the applicants already mentioned, Gaelatse, Nemaorani and Mabote. I'm an attorney from Johannesburg. As far as Mr Gaelatse is concerned Mr Commissioners, the applicant has never in his application stated any involvement whereby there's been a gross violation of human rights. The only offence that Mr Gaelatse committed and for which he seeks amnesty was that from approximately the middle of 1993 he possessed an AK47 weapon and bullets. This was possessed, he was one of the commanders of the Thokoza/Beirut section, he was self defence unit, he never incited anybody to commit violence, anyone under his command ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Shein, where in his application? Where does he apply for the illegal possession of firearms of any sort?

MR SHEIN: He doesn't, that is why Mr Commissioner, that is why he in fact wishes to withdraw his application because he has not committed any gross violation and he hasn't stated in his application his possession of this weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the second applicant?

MR SHEIN: The second applicant Sir, is Sidney Nemaorani. Him as well Sir, in similar circumstances from 1991 until early 1994 he possessed several weapons, a 9 mm Makarof pistol and bullets and also an AK47. At no stage did he order or himself commit any gross violation of human rights although he was a commander in the SDU at Beirut Section, Thokoza. Insofar as the third applicant, Hahlomolo Israel Mabote, Sir, he as well Sir, did not commit any gross violation of human rights, neither did he incite it. In his application murder is stated. It relates to a shooting of two victims. This shooting was in fact done by another applicant who will appear before you, Kalie Letsopa, but this incident was not in any way committed by the applicant Mabote, Sir and he likewise only seeks amnesty for the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition. If there's anything further, the Committee wishes me to address it on at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Mr Gaelatse? Can this be interpreted to him? Mr Gaelatse, have you heard what your attorney has said?

MR GAELATSE: Yes I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what he said?

MR GAELATSE: Yes I agree with him about all things he has said so far.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Gaelatse can leave the chair now.

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nemaorani, have you heard what your attorney has said about your position?

MR NEMAORANI: Yes I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree therewith?

MR NEMAORANI: Yes I do agree with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mabote, have you heard what your attorney has said?

MR MABOTE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with him?

MR MABOTE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

AMNESTY HEARING

______________________________________________________ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mabote, are you withdrawing your whole application or are you continuing with part of it?

MR MABOTE: I withdraw the case about murder, what I apply for is the possession of illegal firearms and ammunition.

ADV DE JAGER: Now could you tell us please why didn't you mention in your application when you were ask for particulars about the acts you are asking for, why didn't you mention the illegal firearms, the possession of the illegal firearms?

MR MABOTE: They appear in my application. They appear because I was in possession of them, it is clear in my application that I left them, they were with me then I handed them over. There were three things which appeared in my application. Firstly it's murder which perhaps I thought I am involved because when I made this application it was at the time when I was confused and I did not have help and I didn't know as to whether

should I apply because even when you look at the date you'd see it was the last date of the submission of the applications therefore I was obliged because I did not know, I was obliged therefore to make an application. After I met my legal representative it was clear that in the true sense I was not involved about the two incidents except the possession of illegal firearms.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hand in a firearm when they requested you to do so after the election?

MR MABOTE: As appears in my application, during the elections of 1994 I was outside the country. In 1992 I went outside the country because my life was in danger then I was advised to go out.

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to that firearm and ammunition?

MR MABOTE: According to my knowledge they were handed over to the general Amnesty Committee after the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do with it, that firearm and ammunition?

MR MABOTE: I made it clear in my application that I left them in the township, I left them with Comrade Sam and Comrade Lucky. Thereafter they took them to the stadium where all members of self defence unit handed over all their firearms. I was present at the stadium when they were handed over, then I was satisfied that they handed over the firearms and as a leader of the ANC we were - that was when people turned over their firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, the applications would therefore be referred for chamber attention. They are all excused.

MR SHEIN: Thank you. Are we being excused in the meantime? Thank you.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, might I at this stage point out to the Committee and place on record that since I appeared here yesterday I also received instructions to act on behalf of Mrs Doris Sambo who is named as a victim in the application of Mogoera Modikoa, number 7212/97 and place myself on record in that regard as well before we proceed with the applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that an application that we've dealt with already?

MR SWANEPOEL: No Mr Chairperson, it's one to be dealt with.

MR SAMUELS: I call Jabu Jacob Nyethe to the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one that wants to use Xhosa?

MR SAMUELS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's deal with him now that a Xhosa interpreter is here.

MR SAMUELS: Okay. I call Embrose May to the stand please.

MS PATEL: It's bundle 3, page 157.

MR SAMUELS: His application is number 7208/97, volume 3 page 157.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr May you told me yesterday that you prefer to use Xhosa, have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, may I at this stage make an application to amend the applicant's answer to one of the questions? He has eluded to the evidence that he wishes to give further on in his application. However, at paragraph 9 (a) the dates given are 1991 to December 1993, 9(a)ii. The applicant however wishes to give evidence about an incident which he refers to in 9(b) which in fact occurred in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) amend the period to 1994?

MR SAMUELS: More specifically to April 1994. Thank you Mr Chair. Mr May, do you belong to a political party?

MR MAY: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: Which political party do you belong to?

MR MAY: The ANC.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for amnesty for the offences of attempted murder, possession of an AK47 and ammunition, is that correct?

MR MAY: That is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Briefly, will you explain to the Committee the incidents or the incident that you are referring to?

MR MAY: Yes I can do that. I will start with an incident when I was arrested with an AK47. I was arrested in number 2226 in Makukule in Emalaheni Section. The soldiers came at night when I was sleeping, after 10 at night. When they got there they didn't know the person they were looking for personally. They were told where I was staying and when they arrived they kicked the door. When kicking the door I saw them while they were inside the house.

MR SAMUELS: When was that, that you were found with the AK47?

MR MAY: It was in April, the first week of April, two weeks before the 1994 elections.

MR SAMUELS: Now with regard to the attempted murder, would you explain that incident?

MR MAY: Yes I can explain this way. Because I was a commander of the SDU's in Emalahleni Section, we had to come from Emalahleni.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot at somebody?

MR MAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR MAY: Where I was staying in number 2226.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR MAY: It was in the middle of April, the week that I've already described.

CHAIRPERSON: 1994?

MR MAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who you shot at?

MR MAY: I don't know the person's name.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot at him?

MR MAY: The reason is because this person was harassing me because of the work that I was doing and he promised to report this to the soldiers and to the police so my life was in danger because the police and the soldiers were looking for me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you shot him because you wanted to avoid detection by the police? Is that the reason you shot him?

MR MAY: That is not the reason that way, but the way we used to work, a person who informed the police at that time was an informer or he betrayed the people because I was working for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: So is that the reason you shot him because he was an informer?

MR MAY: I can say yes that is the reason even though that was not my aim because I warned him at first, I told him to stop what he was doing and I called the people who were with him to talk to him and they couldn't get through him and then

I took that decision.

MR SAMUELS: Mr May, was the person injured?

MR MAY: I shot him in the arm.

MR SAMUELS: After you had shot him what did you do, Mr May?

MR MAY: I went to a place where I could be safe when the police were looking for me or the soldiers.

MR SAMUELS: And the AK47 that you used to shoot the person, what happened to that weapon?

MR MAY: The soldiers took the AK47, they took it with them.

MR SAMUELS: Is that when they came to arrest you?

MR MAY: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chair just briefly if I may? I just want to know if the person who was shot had any political affiliation known to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the matter that he testifies about? Is that a matter in which one of your clients had an interest in?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not specifically, apart from the political interest of the IFP may have, depending on the answer or not, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr May, do you know whether the person you shot was a member of any political party?

MR MAY: I don't know.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, if I may just briefly?

Can you tell us where you got the weapon from and whether you had a licence for it?

MR MAY: I didn't have a licence for this weapon but because of the situation I had to have this weapon. I took this weapon from the community, I got it from the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Be specific, I mean the community is a lot of people.

MR MAY: We used to get weapons from the community because the community was being attacked. So because the community was attacked the community tried to get money so that weapons can be bought but at that time ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We just want to know a name of the person or persons or committee that issued the firearm to you, that's all.

MR MAY: The committee of the section tried to get some funds so that we can get those weapons. It was difficult to know where they bought these weapons from or who they bought them from.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you pick this weapon up in the streets of Thokoza?

MR MAY: As I've already said, I'm staying in Emalahlene section. There was a committee at that time that was responsible for that particular section.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not going to tell us who actually gave you the weapon?

MR MAY: I don't remember their names but Mr Mtembu was one of the committee members.

MS PATEL: This person whom you killed, you say you don't know his name. Can you tell us exactly what you knew about him? I would like you to be as specific as possible please.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, was this person in fact killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Shot.

ADV DE JAGER: He was shot in the arm, did he die?

MR MAY: He was not killed, he was shot in the arm. I was not staying in that section for a long time and I don't know much about the people in that area but what I know is that he knew about me and he told the police publicly about what I did and that was very dangerous.

MS PATEL: How do you know that he was the person who told the police whatever information about you?

MR MAY: When the soldiers came they said they are looking for Embrose May. They were looking for an AK47, an AK47 that was used in that shooting incident that made me realise that he was the person who went to the soldiers and told the soldiers about me.

CHAIRPERSON: Aikona, you shot this man before you were arrested and that is the issue. How did you know that this man was an informer that had required to be shot at?

MR MAY: Without explaining details, the reason why I called his friends, the people that I thought were his friends, and the reason why I took out a weapon was because of what he was saying and the things that he was saying showed that he might be dangerous or he is dangerous because at that time when you see a person with such a weapon you wouldn't just call out on the street saying that you would call the soldiers. We didn't expect any person to call the soldiers at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you suspected because of that that he was an informer?

MR MAY: He told me that he was going to call the police and the soldiers and he said that he knew that I had an AK47. I then warned him.

ADV MOTATA: Now you somewhat mentioned that he knew his friends. When you spoke to his friends, whom did you say was an informer and he should be warned?

MR MAY: When I was talking to his friends because they were there with him, I asked his friends whether they can hear what he was saying and I said to them they must stop him or try to talk to him to stop what he was saying and they tried to stop him because they could hear what he was staying and they were trying to stop him and he didn't see at the time that I had an AK47 and I tried to give him a warning. When I was trying to scare him, I then shot at him.

MS PATEL: Who are these friends of the victim in this matter that you refer to?

MR MAY: Please repeat your question ma'am?

MS PATEL: Who are the friends of the victim that you refer to, that you said you spoke to?

MR MAY: When I'm saying friends, I don't mean that I know their names but they were together. That showed me that they were his friends. One of them was James.

MS PATEL: How did you know that they were not informers as well?

MR MAY: That is why I did what I did because I knew that my life was in danger, I knew that what he was doing there are many people who are listening. Even a person who didn't know this information would be informed because of what he said. I then decided to take action because he was the one who was saying these things.

ADV DE JAGER: But you were standing in the street openly with an AK47 at that stage?

MR MAY: I said ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't that so, yes or no? Would you please answer the question?

MR MAY: I was not in the street, that is why I'm trying to explain that I was inside the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Could everybody see that you had a gun?

MR MAY: They didn't see that I had an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Could they have seen, I'm not asking if they did?

MR MAY: They saw they weapon after realising that I had to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr May, all I'm asking you, when this person said he's going to tell the police that you have an AK47, did you have an AK47 with you so that the people who were ordinary people who were walking in the street could see that you were in fact in possession of this firearm?

MR MAY: The AK47 was with me but the way that I was holding it, people couldn't see it and it was during the night. The people in the streets couldn't see it because I was inside the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: Now how did he see at that stage that you had the AK47 if it was at night?

MR MAY: If it is at night it does not mean that you cannot see what is near you, he saw it when I was taking it out, he then went back. That showed me that he saw the weapon.

ADV DE JAGER: And at that stage people were blaming the police and the soldiers because they didn't protect the community?

MR MAY: Yes that is correct, the police and the soldiers were not protecting the community.

ADV DE JAGER: Would it then be wrong for somebody to go to the police and tell them here's somebody with a weapon, come and protect us?

MR MAY: That wouldn't be right at the time because that person was in the area that we protected. We were the people who protected him and the police and the soldiers were not protecting him at that time. But at the time he wouldn't tell the killers and say here is the person who is protecting us is having a weapon.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether this person wasn't perhaps a member of the ANC himself?

MR MAY: We were not fighting with the ANC or the IFP, we were fighting with the people who were killing the community, there were a lot of ways to kill the community. To inform the police was killing a community. We were fighting even inside the ANC if there was a need, we were not looking at the IFP or the PAC.

ADV DE JAGER: So because he said he wanted to inform the police you regarded him as an enemy, is that right?

MR MAY: Yes I regarded him as an enemy.

ADV DE JAGER: And that was the reason why you shot at him?

MR MAY: I shot at him even though those were not my aims. I tried to warn him and then eventually he was shot.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) is because you thought he thought of collaborating with the enemy, the police?

MR MAY: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Mr May, what else did this victim know about you that he would have been able to inform on besides the fact that he saw you at that particular stage in possession of a firearm, what else did he know about you?

MR MAY: I wouldn't know because if a person is investigating about you he is investigating everything so I wouldn't know what he knew or what he didn't know.

MS PATEL: So for all you know, he may have known absolutely nothing about you?

CHAIRPERSON: Expect that he was in possession, unlawful possession of an AK47.

MR MAY: If you say so.

MS PATEL: You also mentioned in your evidence in chief that you shot at him because he was harassing you. What do you mean by that?

MR MAY: At that time when you were calling out or when you were telling people or when you did what you said you were going to do, telling the police, was to betray a person so he was trying to betray me.

MS PATEL: Okay, just for clarity, you may have mentioned this already but did he say - is the only thing that he said that he would tell the police that you were in possession of a firearm, of a weapon, is that all he said he would tell the police?

MR MAY: I can say so but I didn't think something he said was very important, he said he was from Mozambique and he is used to an AK47. I then realised that there was war between us.

MS PATEL: I don't understand, could you please explain?

MR MAY: What I'm trying to say is when you are asking a question that except what he said that he was going to tell the police that I had an AK, if there was something else. There was nothing else except that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was in other words a threat to you and in so being a threat to you he was a political opponent?

MR MAY: His actions showed that.

MS PATEL: Just to confirm, he said he was from Mozambique?

MR MAY: Yes that's what he said, even the language he used.

MS PATEL: So he - okay. What else did you know about him?

MR MAY: As I've already said I was not staying in that area for a long time, I was just there when I was hiding so I don't know much about him but I found out that he knew a lot about me.

MS PATEL: But you've already conceded that you don't know what he knew about you except of course that he saw you in possession of an AK47?

CHAIRPERSON: Well and that he threatened to tell the police and soldiers.

MR MAY: Yes that is all, there's nothing else.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: In your application you say that "my chief commander's name was Bonga Nkosi" and you state it under the particulars of whether the deed was approved by anybody. What was your chief commander's attitude about this offence you've committed?

MR MAY: My chief commander got a report and I was not expected to get permission from him to do what I did because he was far away and the situation at that time made me to do what I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether he afterwards approved of what you did?

MR MAY: If you say after this I've approved, it has already happened.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I just wish to clarify three little points?

Mr May, the Mozambican gentleman, did he see with the gun when he started threatening you or was it before he had seen the gun that he started threatening you?

MR MAY: He didn't see me with the weapon at the time he was saying this. He spoke about this because he knew about me and he was investigating before this date and he knew what I was doing. He then saw the weapon at the time that I was showing it to him.

MR SAMUELS: Mr May, this weapon, where did you keep this AK47 that he didn't see it when he had started to threaten you?

MR MAY: Because it was cold I had a jacket on and I also had this jacket on so that I can hide this weapon and my weapon didn't have an arm butt, I took it off.

MR SAMUELS: Are you saying your weapon didn't have an arm butt so it became shorter, is that my understanding of what you're saying?

MR MAY: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: So it would have been easier to conceal under your coat, is that correct?

MR MAY: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is Jabu Jacob Nyethe, application number 7285 and his application itself appears on page 166 of I think it's volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyethe, what language would you prefer to use?

MR NYETHE: Zulu.

JABU JACOB NYETHE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nyethe, do you belong to any political party?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: You have applied for the amnesty for the offences of murder, attempted murder, kidnapping and possession of an unlicensed firearm, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: When did this incident occur?

MR NYETHE: In 1993, I don't remember which month.

MR SAMUELS: Now can you describe the incidents - can you describe in your own words the event that you're applying for amnesty for?

MR NYETHE: In 1993 in Thokoza Extension 2 we were an Danger Zone near the hostel. The commander came, his name is Ben. He told us about Sibongele, that Sibongele was with the IFP. As a commander, we didn't ask him too many questions and so he ordered us to go and kill Sibongele together with her sibling, I don't know the sibling's name. We went there together with other comrades, Mogoera, Vuyisile, Jango, Mavi, Mdmase, Doctor, Joseph and others, I don't remember their names because it was too many of us. We went to Sibongele's place. Sibongele escaped to Extension 5. We found her there at Extension 5. We brought her back. When we brought her back we went to her place and collected her sibling and Ben ordered us to go and kill her at Unit F at a certain Danger Zone near the hostel.

When we were on our way Ben stopped us, myself, Mogoera and Vuyisile. He told us not continue to Danger Zone because we didn't have firearms. When we were there we looked for another safe place and Ben returned back home. We waited there to hear firearms or fire shots. We were surprised because we didn't hear anything until one comrade came, his name was Siphiwe. When he arrived there he asked us why we were waiting there. We explained everything to him, we told him that we were waiting for comrades because we were waiting for comrades to shoot Sibongele. He asked us why we were not at the danger zone so that we see when they kill Sibongele. We told him that we couldn't because we didn't have guns. He took one Makarof and gave it to me and he said to me I must go there and see what was going on.

I went there with Vuyisile, he left behind with Mogoera. On our way Doctor came and he was running. We asked him as to where were the other comrades. He told us that they were busy that side and when I asked him "busy doing what?" he continued telling us that they were busy raping Sibongele and her sibling and I got mad because it wasn't the way to go about it.

Me and Vuyisile ran to that place. When we arrived there surely Mdmase and another guy, his name is Mavi, they were busy raping them. Because there were too many comrades there, some of them were inside the yard and some were inside the house. When I arrived there I took out that Makarof and I pointed the gun to the comrades to shoot them and I missed them and Sibongele's sibling got shot and my gun had only four bullets and then I shot Sibongele and Sibongele's sibling was down, she tried to grab me and then I shot at her with that one remaining bullet. As I was walking outside Mdmase was waiting there, I asked Mdmase to finish them with that AK47 and I heard that gunfire and I told myself that Mdmase has finished them and I went to Spruit to report and the next day they were called and they were shambokked. That's all.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Nyethe, you mentioned an AK47 a moment ago in your evidence in chief. Did you have that weapon with you?

MR NYETHE: No, I didn't have an AK47, Mdmase had an AK47.

MR SAMUELS: When you told Mdmase to finish the job, what did you mean?

MR NYETHE: I meant that he must shoot them.

MR SAMUELS: Did you know with regard to the Makarof pistol that you had that it was illegal to possess such a firearm?

MR NYETHE: Yes I knew but the situation forced us to possess those illegal firearms and it wasn't as much as a crime.

MR SAMUELS: Just very briefly, Mr Nyethe, explain why your commander, Ben, Ben Mashanini, is that correct? Was it Ben Mashanini who was your commander?

MR NYETHE: Yes it was Ben Mashanini.

MR SAMUELS: Explain why Ben asked you to attack Sibongele's house?

MR NYETHE: As from 1990 Sibongele was a member of IFP and she was running a certain spot and after IFP members have attacked people they will come to Sibongele's place and drink there and they will be happy, celebrate at Sibongele's place.

MR SAMUELS: When you went to Extension 5 with the comrades to collect Sibongele, did she want to come with you?

MR NYETHE: No she didn't, we forced her.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Swanepoel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nyethe, when you - do you Sibongele's sister, do you know what her name is?

MR NYETHE: No I don't know her name.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now let me concentrate on her for now. You testified that when you initially went to, may I use the word arrest, Sibongele and take her to be executed that she escaped to another section and that you followed her and caught her there, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And that at that stage she was alone and you went back and you fetched her sister and you took the two of them away, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And that your instructions from your commander, Ben, was to kill Sibongele because she was an IFP informer, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Why did you go and fetch her sister?

MR NYETHE: Her sister was a girlfriend of a certain member of the IFP, so we took it as someone who is also supporting IFP.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but those were not your orders, your orders were to fetch Sibongele and kill her. Why did you go back ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think he said that his orders were to go fetch Sibongele and a sibling is the word used. I'm not too sure whether the sibling and the sister is being confused.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question. Let me ask you specifically, did your orders include to fetch both Sibongele and her sister?

MR NYETHE: Ben ordered us that we should take both Sibongele and her sister and there were other comrades watching so that Sibongele's sister doesn't escape as well.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now I'll inform you at this stage that Sibongele's sister's name is Doris, Doris Sambo and I will refer to her as Doris as we go along. Now Doris tells me that at that stage she was a member of the ANC. What do you say to that?

MR NYETHE: No I didn't know that.

MR NYETHE: And she further tells me that when you entered her house the first time, that you accused her of being an IFP informer because of the fact that she was Zulu speaking. What do you say to that?

MR NYETHE: We got the information from our commander. We used to stay at the Danger Zone so they used to come and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, would you agree or do you deny that Doris, when you found her in the house, denied that she was a member of the IFP or whatever? Is that the question Mr Swanepoel?

MR NYETHE: She didn't. When we arrived there she was scared, she didn't refuse that she was an IFP member.

MR SWANEPOEL: I'll take it from there Mr Chairman.

We are talking about Doris here, did Doris escape as well?

MR NYETHE: Would you please explain to me if Doris is Sibongele's other name?

CHAIRPERSON: You must listen very carefully, I'm not sure if it's being interpreted properly. Doris is the other person that was shot. It's the sister or the sibling, I'm not too sure.

MR NYETHE: Now I understand.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: She tells her advocate that when you people came there she said certain things about her affiliation. Do you agree with that or don't you agree with that? Or maybe you can repeat your question, it will be better.

MR SWANEPOEL: I will repeat the question for you.

Do you recall Doris telling you when you initially went to the house where you found her, that she was not a member of the IFP?

MR NYETHE: We didn't question her, we just followed the instructions, the commander had done everything. Probably he is the one who asked her that, we didn't question her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now you went a bit fast initially. Can I just get the names again of the people who were with you?

MR NYETHE: Mdmase, Kifuwe, Jango, Vuyisile, Mogoera.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't you go slow please, I'm trying to write it down? Mdmase? The second one was Kifuwe or what was the name?

MR NYETHE: Kifuwe, Mavi, Jango, Doctor, Mogoera, these are the only people I can still remember.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, I note that it's 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.

Was Joseph there?

MR NYETHE: Yes he was there.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right, now who else?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already said he can't remember, maybe if you suggest names he could say yes or no.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chair.

Could you remember anybody else being there?

MR NYETHE: And also Masevin.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now from there after you arrested - you took - you caught Sibongele in another section, you took her back to her house, is that correct? And there you found Doris as well, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And from there you took the two of them. Did you take them to Ben initially?

MR NYETHE: We took them towards Danger Zone and then the commander stopped us on our way and the others continued with them.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right, now who continued with them, who stayed behind and who continued with them?

MR NYETHE: As I've explained, it was myself, Mogoera and Vuyisile and then the rest continued and others, I can't remember their names, it was a large group, people of between 20 and 25 and they continued with them.

MR SWANEPOEL: And they were allowed to continue because they had guns and you had to stay behind because you didn't?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now in any event, at a later stage you received weapons and you proceeded to the danger zone and on your way you met Doctor, is that right?

MR NYETHE: Yes, Siphiwe gave me a gun and on my way I met Doctor and he is the one who explained to me that the comrades were not doing according to the instructions.

MR SWANEPOEL: And he told you that the comrades were raping them, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now did he tell you who was raping them?

MR NYETHE: No he didn't explain, I got scared when I heard the word rape and then I left Doctor then and there and I continued to where they were.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you arrived there were they still busy raping the girls?

MR NYETHE: Yes they were?

MR SWANEPOEL: And who was that?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant?

MR NYETHE: Mdmase and Mafi.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no application for amnesty against rape.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, this is one of those difficult situations which is not strictly relevant to the amnesty application but relevant to reconciliation and knowing the truth. Now Mrs Doris Sambo was fairly emotional when she described her ordeal and she specifically cannot remember everything because of the wounds that she received in the ordeal.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) and that?

MR SWANEPOEL: Ja, my specific instructions from her is also, amongst others, to find out what happened to her sister because she passed out after she was shot and she woke up in hospital. She does not know whether her sister is dead or alive. That's her first objective and also to find out who did this to them. This is very important for her and she's very emotional about it. We sat here till yesterday evening fairly late and it was very difficult to calm her down.

CHAIRPERSON: Well strictly speaking, the reconciliation part of the issue is not the paramount leg of the Amnesty Committee's job, that would have been done in another Committee but I'm going to allow it now seeing as we're busy with a very emotional issue. But I'd appreciate it if we curtail it in terms of details, I mean the fact that a particular person committed rape on a victim is not going to effect the outcome of this application. So to the extent that it may reconcile two people, I'm going to allow it but I'm going to ask you to cut out most of the details please.

MR SWANEPOEL: I appreciate it.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Swanepoel, if he himself was in some way involved in the rape or he stood by and sort of condoned it, then it may reflect on his motivation or his situation or his malice in dealing with the person. I don't know whether other persons applied for amnesty and whether those applying for amnesty might have been the rapists, so I think it's the only witness perhaps you could get this information from in order to oppose other applications if they've applied, I don't know whether they've applied or not applied and to that extent it may be relevant but only for that purpose.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Commissioner, that is exactly the line of cross-examination and the purpose of it, I simply wanted names in order to properly evaluate any other applications that might come before and if there are no applications in order to let Mrs Sambo consider her options from there. As you please Mr Chairman.

Sorry, Mr Nyete, I didn't catch those names. You arrived at the place where the sisters were being held and you saw who raped them. Could you tell us the names again?

MR NYETHE: It was Mdmase and Mavi.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chairperson.

Alright, now you mentioned that you shot at the comrades and then you shot Sibongele in the process. Do you recall where you shot her? Was it one shot?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean where in her body?

MR NYETHE: When I arrived there, I took my gun and I shot and I missed. The second shot, Sibongele's sister got shot, she was closer to me and then the third one I shot Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is where in Doris's body would she have been hit. Wouldn't Doris be able to tell you that Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: She did indeed tell me, I just want to compare Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when we spoke yesterday, I mean the applicant is admitting that he shot. Does it matter whether it was in the toe or the foot?

MR SWANEPOEL: I understand Mr Chairman, I'll leave that line of questioning.

Mr Nyethe, Mrs Sambo tells us that her sister was shot once in the back of the head. Do you recall who did that?

MR NYETHE: What I can remember is that I shot her on her chest. Properly Mdmase, when I told him to finish the job, probably he shot her at the head but I shot her in her chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that now, was that Doris or the deceased who was shot in the chest?

MR NYETHE: Doris.

CHAIRPERSON: You shot - Doris was hit - Doris was the sister? Sibongele's sister?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you shot towards her chest? Correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the question from Advocate Swanepoel is, Sibongele herself, where did you shoot her because his instructions are that there was a shot that penetrated the back of her head. Where would you have shot at her, that is Sibongele herself?

MR NYETHE: If I can remember very well, it's closer to the neck.

CHAIRPERSON: In front or?

MR NYETHE: There was blood so I couldn't see clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she facing you or not immediately before you shot her, Sibongele?

MR NYETHE: At the side.

ADV DE JAGER: When you arrived there they were being raped, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they lying on the ground?

MR NYETHE: Yes Sibongele was lying on the ground and her sister was in the bathroom.

ADV DE JAGER: How far from Sibongele, this bathroom?

MR NYETHE: It's closer, Sibongele was next to the base and then the sister was in the bathroom.

ADV DE JAGER: Now she was lying and you started shooting at the rapists, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: No, when I arrived there I took out my gun and then those guys who were raping them stood up and they were left alone then.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't shoot at them and missed them and accidently shot her, you deliberately shot at her?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct because that was the command that they should be killed, not raped.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes and you had the intention to kill them when you fired the shots?

MR NYETHE: At first I wanted to shoot the comrades because I knew that they were doing something wrong. The instruction didn't go like that but then I realised that I only had four bullets so I realised that I was going to finish the bullets before I kill Sibongele and her sister.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't shoot at the comrades at all?

MR NYETHE: Yes they ran away, the only person who was left was Mdmase and I used all my bullets so I asked Mdmase to finish the job.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then I don't quite understand. As I remember your evidence you said you shot at your comrades, you missed them and that's how Doris got injured. I'm going to take the tea break, you can think about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyethe, I asked you to consider that issue that I raised with you before we adjourned. Are you able to explain?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: (s.u.o.) ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Please so.

MR NYETHE: As I've already told you that the comrades, I was prepared to shoot at them because they were doing something wrong, that is why I decided to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: No. Your evidence in chief, you told us well you certainly gave me the impression that you in fact did shoot at your colleagues, missed them, but as a result of those shots, Doris was injured. That's how I understood your evidence, am I wrong?

MR NYETHE: Yes, as I told you before that the firearm I had was loaded with four bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not shoot at your colleagues at all?

MR NYETHE: I shot at them but I missed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now - then I don't understand. How many shots did you aim or was Doris injured with?

MR NYETHE: The first shot missed the comrades and I shot at Doris and I shot at Sibongele and the last bullet was directed to Doris and I left Mdmase to finish up.

CHAIRPERSON: That's only three bullets. Now please explain to us now, did you take aim at your colleagues who were the rapists?

MR NYETHE: With four bullets - I want you to understand this - the first bullet is the one that missed the comrade and the second one is the one that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to that bullet, did it hit the wall or did it injure somebody?

MR NYETHE: Yes it hit the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, the second bullet?

MR NYETHE: The second one hit Doris.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you aiming that at?

MR NYETHE: I was aiming at Doris because the others had gone at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And your third bullet?

MR NYETHE: It went straight to Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you aiming that bullet at?

MR NYETHE: I was aiming at Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: And your fourth bullet?

MR NYETHE: I aimed at Doris again.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't injure anybody as a result of missing your colleagues? The injuries that you caused were the result of direct attempts to kill the two people. Do I understand you correctly?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SWANEPOEL: (continues) Thank you Mr Chair.

When you - after you discharged your firearm and all your bullets were spent and you left the premises, as far as you could see was either Doris or Sibongele still alive?

MR NYETHE: They were lying down on the floor, I just saw Sibongele moving a little bit, that is why I had to tell Mdmase to finish her off.

MR SWANEPOEL: And he then entered the premises with an AK47 and you didn't see what happened from there, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes, I did not see what happened thereafter, I just heard the gunshots but I was on my way out and I did not come back to look, to see what was happening.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you ever visit or go back to the house of Sibongele afterwards?

MR NYETHE: No, I never visited the place again. I went to Commander Ben.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you went to Commander Ben, what did you report to him?

MR NYETHE: I told him about everything what happened there at the place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you tell him about the rapes?

MR NYETHE: Yes I told him.

MR SWANEPOEL: And as a result of that were people punished?

MR NYETHE: Yes all the people who were there were punished.

MR SWANEPOEL: As far as you know did any of the comrades who were with you ever go back to the house of Sibongele and damage it?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Apologies Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: As in what type of damage.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, my instructions are that the house was structurally damaged and I'm sure whether it was burnt or just vandalised, also the furniture was damaged inside and stolen.

CHAIRPERSON: Stolen?

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please, we aren't sure of course how that happened, Sibongele was dead and Doris was in hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're not sure when it happened or whatever, okay fine.

When you left, did you leave with a group of people after that, even the rapist, when you left that house where Sibongele was raped?

MR SWANEPOEL: The only person that I left behind was Mdmase because the other comrades had run away at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you left that house was there any damage that you could see to the building? Maybe broken windows or broken roof or something like that, or any damage?

MR NYETHE: Are you referring to the house where Sibongele and the other lady was shot?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get that clear, as I understand they were taken and raped at a house in Section F, that is not Sibongele's house, that's not the house of Sibongele. The question is, remember you went to her house first then she ran away, now that house from which she ran away, when you left that house did you leave with all these people, your colleagues?

MR NYETHE: Yes, we left altogether. Now when you left that house that day at that time were there any windows broken or roof broken or any walls affected?

MR NYETHE: The house where Sigongele was shot at was vandalised, everything was just broken.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) in Section F?

MR NYETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was that?

MR NYETHE: I don't know whose house was it because we did not know the people from Unit F because all the people from Unit F had already gone.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm talking about Sibongele's house where you first went to look for her. Was the furniture broken there or windows broken or what, or taken? Any furniture taken do you know?

MR NYETHE: No I don't have knowledge about that house.

CHAIRPERSON: If someone had carried furniture away there when you people left would you have seen it? One of your colleagues had taken furniture from the house at which you first looked for Sibongele, surely you would have seen your colleague, one of your colleagues carrying the furniture?

MR NYETHE: I did not see anyone carrying anything because most of the time we used to stay there at Unit F, that was regarded as a danger zone, we did not know anything about that place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. You have applied for amnesty for a murder and an attempted murder, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Is that the murder of Sibongele and the attempted murder of Doris?

MR NYETHE: The shooting of Sibongele and the death of her sibling.

MR SWANEPOEL: Well it seems that Doris is still alive. I'm asking you whose murder and whose attempted murder are you applying for amnesty for.

MR NYETHE: Sibongele's death.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, how do you know that Sibongele is dead?

MR NYETHE: As far as I know Sibongele is not dead, she came back to the section and he met with the Committee after the elections. She is the person that I used to see in that section.

CHAIRPERSON: So why are you applying for her death then, for her murder?

MR NYETHE: I applied for amnesty concerning her sister or brother and the attempted murder on Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's common cause that Sibongele is dead and Doris her sister is not dead.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, if I might intervene, we don't know if Sibongele is dead or not, that's the gist of my question. We know that Doris is alive.

CHAIRPERSON: The purpose of my question is that then why does he make the application if he's not certain whether she's dead or not?

MR SWANEPOEL: Of course, I would just like to know if she's dead, how does he know that and what the situation is.

ADV DE JAGER: I now understood and kindly tell me whether I'm right, that afterwards you've seen Sibongele again? Is that right?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes that is correct, that was after the violence had subsided, after there was peace in the section.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you see her?

MR NYETHE: I saw her in the streets, she was passing by next to the shops.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you sure it's the same person that you kidnapped and that you shot at, that you've seen passing in the street again afterwards?

MR NYETHE: Yes I am sure, it's not the sibling, it's not Doris that you've seen afterwards?

MR NYETHE: No, I saw Sibongele.

ADV DE JAGER: So then there can't be any murder of Sibongele because she's still alive?

MR NYETHE: Yes, Sibongele's still alive and all I know is that her sister passed away.

ADV DE JAGER: No, but her sister is here. One of the sisters passed away it seems but according to the names given, the sister who is still alive is Doris and Sibongele vanished, they don't know whether she's dead or alive?

CHAIRPERSON: The person you saw near the shops sometime after the elections, can you see her in the audience?

MR NYETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you point her out for us?

MR NYETHE: It's the lady sitting on the third row with a shirt with roses, red and white roses.

CHAIRPERSON: It's that lady as you know as Sibongele Ligela?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, my instructing attorney has now taken instructions from who we know as Doris. Our instructions are that the person - her sister who died's name is Francisca and there were only two sisters. She is known as both Doris and Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, on page 168, Section 9(b), attempted murder and I don't know if you want to be too strict on the matter, says that application is made for attempted murder of Sibongele and the murder unknown I suppose?

MR SWANEPOEL: I won't take that too far, I can understand that confusion might exist in the mind of the applicants. What I do want to establish is whether the other sister is dead. If that is the case ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But I think Mr Swanepoel, the confusion was in your mind, you created the impression that Doris is still alive and that the other sister Sibongele is dead but it's turned out otherwise. Let's not dwell on it, we know there's the one sister and the one sitting there is Doris.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's ask you this then, one of the sisters is sitting here in front, what happened to the other sister?

MR NYETHE: The person that I saw alive is Sibongele. We left her sister there, I don't know what happened to her sister because people would come and take the dead bodies there, stability unit would come and collect all the dead bodies. I don't even know what happened thereafter because we did not go back to the scene again.

CHAIRPERSON: He is unable to tell you Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: I've go no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Just on your commander Ben Mashinini, is he still alive?

MR NYETHE: No he passed away.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, I assume the misunderstanding has been clarified and there's no need for me to further clarify it? Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?

MR SAMUELS: I call Kifuwe Michael Nhlapo. On page 2, it's the last name of the list applicant 7303, page 187 of Volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: What number?

MR SAMUELS: 7303/97.

ADV MOTATA: May you assist me with the page once more please?

MR SAMUELS: Page 187, Volume 2.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you prefer to use?

MR NHLAPO: Zulu.

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: (sworn states)

MR SAMUELS: Mr Nhlapo, are you 22 years old?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: And are you a member of the ANC?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: And during the early 1990's you were a member of the self defence units in Thokoza, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Who was your commander?

MR NHLAPO: It was Ben Mashinini.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for four offences, murder, attempted murder, kidnapping and possession of a firearm, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Now the kidnapping, who gave the instructions a kidnapping?

CHAIRPERSON: No we don't know if there were instructions.

MR SAMUELS: Did anybody give you instructions to carry out these events or acts?

MR NHLAPO: Yes there is someone.

MR SAMUELS: Who instructed you?

MR NHLAPO: It was Ben Mashinini.

MR SAMUELS: Now the kidnapping, what did he tell you to do?

MR NHLAPO: He told us to go and look for Sibongele.

MR SAMUELS: Right, describe in your own words what happened?

MR NHLAPO: We left the danger zone, taken the direction of Extension 5, looking for Sibongele. We found her there, we tried to bring her back. She struggle, we forced her. We first started at her place. There was another lady who was there. We took that lady with, we went back to the danger zone. When we arrived there I was standing outside and myself

and Joseph ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: When you say you arrived there, where did you arrive?

MR NHLAPO: There was a house that was vandalised.

MR SAMUELS: What house was that?

MR NHLAPO: It was at Section F.

MR SAMUELS: Continue, you said we arrived there, who is we?

MR NHLAPO: It was myself, Joseph, it was Jabu, Mdmase, Maseven, Mavi and M'Afrika.

MR SAMUELS: Were there other people as well?

MR NHLAPO: Yes there were other peoples but I cannot remember their names.

MR SAMUELS: When you got to this house describe what happened?

MR NHLAPO: Mdmase came, got into the house and with these ladies who were standing outside, we were waiting, we were waiting there to see the police. We were safeguarding the place, I don't know what happened inside the place.

ADV MOTATA: If you could just take it slowly, the interpreters can't keep pace with you. If you could slow down a little please?

MR SAMUELS: You say you were standing outside the house, continue?

MR SAMUELS: We were standing outside, myself and Joseph and the others went into the house. When they went into the house they were supposed to shoot Sibongele and her sister. As we were waiting outside, nothing happened. As time went on the ...(inaudible) came out of the house running and he said nothing. When he left the house I saw M'Afrika leaving the house also. After some time Jabu came also. Jabu asked me if the job was done already in the house. I told Jabu that I had nothing since I've been standing there but nothing happened and Jabu got into the house also.

ADV DE JAGER: But I understood you now to say you were standing outside the house with Joseph, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: After a while Doctor came running out of the house, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And after a further while M'Africa also came out of the house

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And a little later Jabu came out of the house?

MR NHLAPO: Jabu came from another direction. He got into the house, I heard that they were arguing inside. We were then standing next to the door, we could hear that he was arguing with them and he told them that they were not actually doing what they were told and I don't know what is that they were doing. We heard a first gunshot and after some time two shots rang again and the last one and Jabu left the house.

MR SAMUELS: ...(inaudible) when he left the house?

MR NHLAPO: When he left the house he told Mdmase to finish up the job because his bullets were finished at the time.

MR SAMUELS: And where did Jabu go?

MR NHLAPO: Jabu took the same direction that he came from.

MR SAMUELS: What happened?

MR NHLAPO: After some time I heard a gunshot from the AK47 and one lady came out of the house, I don't know which one was it between the two ladies and she ran away and when she was running away I shot.

MR SAMUELS: You say you shot?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: How many times?

MR NHLAPO: Two times.

MR SAMUELS: What weapon did you have?

MR NHLAPO: It was a pistol.

MR SAMUELS: Okay, you shot at her, did she fall down?

MR NHLAPO: No she did not fall.

CHAIRPERSON: Then this lady that you shot at was that one of the two ladies that had been kidnapped?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure? Are you sure?

MR NHLAPO: Yes I'm sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you saw this lady, was she full of blood or what?

MR NHLAPO: I did not see because it was dark, it was in the evening.

MR SAMUELS: Now you say this lady didn't fall, what happened to her?

MR NHLAPO: We chased her, we brought her back to the house and he was shot at in the house. It was myself and the other comrades that were there.

MR SAMUELS: You say you chased her and you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last words of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what you said?

MR NHLAPO: We brought her back to the house and I must had took her to the house and we left the place and I must have shot her and she came back to us and she told us that the job was done and we left the scene.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you, that's the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: When the lady was brought back to the house after escaping, did you go into the house or did you still stay outside.

MR NHLAPO: We waited outside because we knew that some people would be standing outside and the others were to be inside so we planned that I would be standing outside.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of you standing outside?

MR NHLAPO: I was watching for in case the police - I was watching for in case one of them tried to run away and the police also.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Can I just make sure, who gave you the instructions to go and fetch Sigongele?

MR NHLAPO: It was Ben Mashinini.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now on page 192 of the bundle where your application is bound, paragraph 11(b) or 11 in general or 11(b) specifically, you state that it was done on order of commander Extension 2, was that Ben?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct, but the one that is stated here is not Ben.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now who is he?

MR NHLAPO: Here they are talking about Meneer.

MR SWANEPOEL: Who was he?

MR NHLAPO: Meneer was just a commander, not full time commander, he was just assisting Ben but the person who would give us correct instructions was Ben.

ADV MOTATA: When you mean the person stated here, who filled in this application form?

MR NHLAPO: I'm the one who requested for this form but I did not mention Meneer's name.

ADV MOTATA: Yes I say I don't know if I heard you correctly, you said the person mentioned here, written down here is not Ben, I say who wrote this out, for instance this 11 who wrote out what we see there Extension 2, Commander Extension 2, who wrote that out?

MR NHLAPO: Yes it's true that we got instructions from the Commander of Section 2 but I don't know anything about Meneer giving us instructions that I stated that clearly that Ben gave us instruction, Meneer was just a commander that was full time and the one was actually assisting Ben, this is new to me.

CHAIRPERSON: All the question he's asking, who filled in this?

ADV DE JAGER: Who wrote it there, whose handwriting?

MR NHLAPO: That is not my handwriting. The person who was there was George, he is the one who fetched me from my home.

MR SWANEPOEL: So do I understand you correctly that Meneer had nothing to do with this, the events you're giving evidence about?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when Ben gave you instructions did he tell you who to go and kidnap?

MR NHLAPO: Yes he did.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right now look at page 189 of your application, in paragraph C the name of your victims is asked and you say "I know", why do you say so?

MR NHLAPO: This is new to me also.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now look at page 193 of your application, is that your signature at the bottom?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is my signature.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you give your signature under oath at the police station as appears on page 194?

MR NHLAPO: No, I did not take any oath, I was just ordered to sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1 that also happens.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman.

Now look at page 190 of your application. You gave some exposition of your activities as a member of the SDU on that page, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Will you please read it to me because I do not understand English. Please read out to me.

ADV MOTATA: The other thing before you proceed Mr Swanepoel, we already know that he did not fill in this form. I say when doing that, bear that in mind. I'm not curtailing you in any way.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please. Why is this event that you gave evidence about not mentioned anywhere in this application?

MR NHLAPO: I don't know that is a question I have in mind also.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, in any event, what did Ben tell you to go and do?

MR NHLAPO: He told us to go and fetch Sigongele from Section 5 and shoot her.

MR SWANEPOEL: He did tell you to fetch anybody else and shoot anybody else?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is true, it was Sibongele and her sister. At Extension 5 it would be Sibongele and Sibongele only.

MR SWANEPOEL: Sorry what did you say?

MR NHLAPO: The instruction was issued to fetch two people but I at Extension 5 there was only Sibongele and her sister was in her house at Extension 2 and we went there also. At Extention 5 we went to fetch Sibongele and her sister was somewhere else and we went there also to fetch her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now when you fetched her and you took her away from Sibongele's house, did everybody go along to the house in Section F?

MR NHLAPO: The people who were in my company yes, except Mogoera, Vuya and Jaba. The commander told them to go back because they were not armed and the people who were armed had to proceed.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you were armed. You were armed?

MR NHLAPO: Yes I had a firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: And Joseph?

MR NHLAPO: Yes he was also armed.

ADV DE JAGER: What kind of firearm did he have?

MR NHLAPO: It was a pistol.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you proceeded to the house in Section F you stayed outside the whole time, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: You also gave evidence that when after Doctor left and M'Africa left, Jabu came from a certain direction and entered the house and you heard them arguing inside, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now tell us, what did you hear inside the house before Doctor left?

MR NHLAPO: I heard nothing before Doctor left, the only thing that we were waiting for in the house, we were waiting to hear the gun shots, that's all.

MR SWANEPOEL: But you heard nothing at all, not even screams?

MR NHLAPO: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: Even though if someone had screamed you would have heard that?

MR NHLAPO: Yes we would be able to hear if someone is screaming?

ADV MOTATA: How far were you when you stood guard from the actual door of the house, how far were you?

MR NHLAPO: Those yards are so small, we were inside the yard, maybe it was a distance from these tables to that corner of the hall there, the distance from the wall and the others were actually surrounding and the others were watching from the other side.

INTERPRETER: He pointed the distance from the corner of the table towards the corner of that wall just behind the table that the table where the panel is, Sir.

MR SAMUELS: Shall we estimate at four metres? Five metres? Eight metres.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then all of a sudden Doctor came running out of the house?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then Mafrica came - left the house as well is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Did Doctor say anything when he left the house?

MR NHLAPO: He said nothing. He left running.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then Jabu came into the house from another direction, is that right?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you hear shots inside the house while Jabu was there?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: How many shots.

MR NHLAPO: Four times, four shots.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then, did Jabu leave?

MR NHLAPO: Yes he left after his firearm ran short of bullets and he instructed Mdmase to finish off the job.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think you'll have much success in cross-examining him, he was sitting in the hall listening to the previous witness so he know about the running out of bullets, he knows everything that the previous ones have testified about, he is repeating the same evidence.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please, Mr Commissioner, the only part that I'm getting to is the part where the one girl apparently ran away, escaped after Jabu had left the house. That's new firstly and secondly, in the light of Jabu's evidence highly unlikely.

CHAIRPERSON: Why unlikely?

MR SWANEPOEL: Well he testified that he shot both of them, he shot Sibongele twice and that he left both of them lying on the floor instructing one of these colleagues to go in and finish the job and in that sequence somewhere the one still ran away got carried back and then got shot at again. It doesn't take the matter any further apart from credibility. As you please Mr Chairperson.

Now you heard as was correctly pointed out by the Commissioner that you were in the audience when Jabu gave evidence and he said when he left they were both lying on the floor and they were both shot, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think for the purposes of the question and what seems to be the point you're leading up to, Jabu also said is that he saw one of them moving so it wasn't as if to say the one was shot and totally incapacitated and hence he gave instructions or asked someone else to finish the job as he put it.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairperson. So when Jabu left, both of the girls were shot, both were lying on the floor, Jabu saw one of them moving and that's why he instructed one of your colleagues to finish the jobs, did you hear that?

MR NHLAPO: Yes I heard that.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now - and Jabu did not say anything about one of the girls running away from there, attempting to escape and being brought back to the house ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Swanepoel, are you surprised? He had already left, if it did happen he wouldn't have seen it so it was understandable that Jabu wouldn't testify about that.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairperson, as I remember the evidence correctly, Jabu's testimony was to the effect that immediately after he left his colleague entered the house with the AK47 and he heard the shots.

MS PATEL: That is the way I understand his evidence as well.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please. Why didn't Jabu mention this escape attempt?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, it's still - it's not self-destructive, he may have shot the other person.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Or may have missed as has seemed to be the case with every of these shotists.

MR SWANEPOEL: Let me ask you this way, did the girl escape before your colleague entered the house with the AK47 to finish the job?

MR NHLAPO: She left after Jabu had instructed the other comrade. Jabu told them they must finish off the job and he left and after Jabu and then we heard a gunshot and the lady ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: In that order, you heard a gunshot and then she ran away?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct. It was first the gunshot and the lady left the house running.

MR SWANEPOEL: So she ran away while your colleague with the AK47 was inside busy finishing the job, as you call it?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: After you caught her and you took her back and you - I assume there were further gunshots, did you look inside the house at any time before you left?

MR NHLAPO: No we did not get into the house. After the gunshot I was already outside and we were on our way out when Mdmase came. He told us that everything is done and then we left the place.

MR SWANEPOEL: How many of you were there at that time?

MR NHLAPO: There was a lot of us and I can't even remember the other people that's why I did not mention them because even the place that we were staying at, the danger zone, it's another place, it's a strange place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now Jabu told this Commission ...(intervention)

MR NHLAPO: Yes it is dangerous.

MR SWANEPOEL: Jabu told this Commission that when he entered the house he fired shots and because of that all his comrades with the exception of Mdmase ran away. What do you say to that?

MR NHLAPO: Yes I agree.

MR SWANEPOEL: But yet your evidence is now that after Jabu left there were still a lot of you there?

MR NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Could you explain that?

MR NHLAPO: It's not all of us who managed to run away. When we got into the house when he started shooting the other people got scattered all over and instead all of us managed to run away, I don't know where the others went to.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes but Jabu's testimony was, that only Mdmase with the AK47 was left outside the door of the house.

MR NHLAPO: Will you please repeat the question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Jabu told this Commission that when he entered the house and started firing shots, all his comrades ran away and only Mdmase with an AK47 was left outside the house which is why you told Mdmase to go inside and finish the job?

MR NHLAPO: I do not understand when you say if he was outside the house or inside the yard. Please clarify that for me?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Swanepoel, perhaps the crux of the matter is, was she caught and brought back and the only one except them who could tell us something about it is your client so what's your client's version, can you put it to the witness or to the applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Or alternatively the other version is that the person that could have ran away may now be deceased? You yourself say that your client was rendered unconscious at some time.

MR SWANEPOEL: That is the difficulty I'm faced with Mr Commissioner, is that the full picture of events of that specific evening is not clear to my client. She remembers her sister being shot she saw her falling, she remembers herself being shot shortly after that and then she woke up in hospital.

ADV DE JAGER: I thought because she's living she must have been the one running away and that's not necessarily so.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please. Mr Chairperson, the line of cross-examination is aimed at the credibility of this witness and if it's two directly conflicting versions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Swanepoel but the point of the matter is like we told you in chambers, that in our view the act as a particular purpose and if you have instructions to oppose the application, we would appreciate the fact that the opposition is based on facts, not an attempt to fish out possible problems that may not exist because that just wastes time. If there's something concrete with which you could oppose the application, by all means.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman.

Do you know what happened to the two women that was kidnapped after the shots were fired and you left the house?

MR NHLAPO: Will you please repeat the question? Do you want to know whether I went inside the house and checked? Will you please repeat that one?

MR SWANEPOEL: I want to know if you know what happened to any of the two sisters after you left the house together with your comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if you heard from somebody afterwards about what happened. In other words do you know if one died?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, when we left the house and the master told us both of them were dead but after some time we heard that only one of them passed away, the other one was still alive.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you hear anything else that happened that night apart from the death of the one girl?

MR NHLAPO: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know anything about the fact that the two women were raped?

MR NHLAPO: Yes I heard about that the next morning. It was people who actually raped them were beaten, were shambokked and the commander instructed that they should be shambokked because the commander said it wasn't the order for them to rape, the order was for them to kidnap and kill.

ADV DE JAGER: How many people were shambokked?

MR NHLAPO: Two of them.

ADV DE JAGER: Who were they?

MR NHLAPO: Mdmase and Mafi.

ADV DE JAGER: Are they still alive? Mdmase, is he still alive?

MR NHLAPO: No and I don't know what happened to Mafi but I do hear from other people that he is still alive but Mdmase died.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Just one point, in your application you state that the incident occurred in 1993, was that a mistake?

MR NHLAPO: It wasn't a mistake, this thing happened in 1993.

MS PATEL: Your co-applicant in this matter stated that this incident occurred two weeks before the elections in 1994. Could you explain?

MR SAMUELS: I thought it was Embrose May who said that he attacked a Mozambican citizen in the week of April 1994.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry.

Just for the record, how old were you at the time that this incident occurred?

MR NHLAPO: It's better if we start counting all of us because at the moment I'm 22.

MS PATEL: And regarding the people who were disciplined for this incident are you sure that it was only these two people?

MR NHLAPO: Yes I'm sure, I'm definitely sure about that, it was the only two.

MS PATEL: Was Mdmase inside the house at the time that the women were being raped, can you remember?

MR NHLAPO: Yes he was inside the house.

MS PATEL: Okay. Thank you Honourable Chairperson I have no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Samuels, you'll have to address us on the question whether this application would cover this - the offences.

MR SAMUELSS: Yes, I will - up to all the hearings I heard, present formal argument on about three or four issues that have been raised.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) any murder, any attempted murder, any possession of firearms in this application at all?

MR SAMUELSS: Yes quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just add that after all the evidence is led I will expect argument immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR SAMUELSS: No I close my case for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson I call Mogoera Valentine Modikoa, application number 7212/97. His application is on page 142 of Volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Modikoa, what language do you choose to use here?

MR MODIKOA: Northern Sotho, Sir.

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Mr Modikoa, do you belong to a political party?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for amnesty for the offences of arson, attempted murder and kidnapping, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: That is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Let's talk about the arson. Can you tell us when this occurred and who was the victim?

MR MODIKOA: It was in 1993, it was at night. We went to Ben - Sibongele Sambo's house. The house number is 9381, that is Sibongele Sambo's house.

MR SAMUELS: Why did you burn Sibongele Sambo's house?

MR MODIKOA: Sibongele was a member of the IFP.

MR SAMUELS: Who were you with and who ordered you to burn Sibongele's house?

MR MODIKOA: We received an order from Meneer. I was with Jango, Mdmase and M'Africa.

ADV DE JAGER: Repeat the names please?

MR MODIKOA: That is myself, Jango, Mdmase and M'Africa.

MR SAMUELS: What did you use to burn the house with?

MR MODIKOA: We used petrol bombs.

MR SAMUELS: Tell me, when you burnt the house was there anybody present?

MR MODIKOA: Yes, they were present in the house.

MR SAMUELS: Who was present that you know of?

MR MODIKOA: That is Sibongele Sambo was present in the house.

MR SAMUELS: Did you think by throwing a petrol bomb onto her house that you could endanger her life?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I knew very well.

MR SAMUELS: Now let's talk about the kidnapping incident. Can you tell us when that occurred?

MR MODIKOA: That's Sibongele Sambo. A month after the arson we went to fetch her from Section 5. We informed her to go with us then she denied therefore we decided to take her by force to Section 2. When we arrived there, Ben Mashinini who was the commander, it was myself, Vuyisili and Jabu. Then Mashinini instructed us that because we were not armed we should return.

MR SAMUELS: What did you then do?

MR MODIKOA: We returned back. We waited for those who went with her to find out what happened.

MR SAMUELS: Did you know that when you were told by your commander Ben Mashinini to leave the house, did you know that Sibongele and her sister would be attacked by your comrades?

MR MODIKOA: May you please repeat the question?

MR SAMUELS: Sorry. When you were told to leave along with Vuyisile and Jabu, did you know what was going to happen at the house after that?

MR MODIKOA: I did not know Sir.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you, I have no more questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen there, were they going to have a party?

MR MODIKOA: I thought they were going to be questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: About what?

MR MODIKOA: About their involvement with IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Swanepoel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: May it please you, Mr Chairman. How far apart from the others, apart from each other were your involvements in the two incidents pertaining to Sibongele? How far apart in time?

MR MODIKOA: It's a month.

MR SWANEPOEL: So you were involved in two incidents pertaining to Sibongele in a space of one month apart from each other and you testified that knew her well, is that true?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I knew her well.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now look at your application on page 144. Let me first ask you, who filled out this application, whose handwriting is this?

MR MODIKOA: There was somebody who was filling in that form but I was instructing him what to do.

ADV DE JAGER: What's the name of this person filling in a form?

MR MODIKOA: That is George, I don't know his surname Sir.

MR SWANEPOEL: But you instructed him what to fill out here, what to write here on this paper, is that right?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: Then why do you say under the question:

MR MODIKOA: May you please repeat the question?

MR SWANEPOEL: I want to know from you, if you knew Sibongele well and you were involved in two attacks in the space of one month at the same premises on this person, why don't you disclose her name in your application? Is it perhaps because when you filled out this application you did not have this specific incident in mind?

MR MODIKOA: I knew that it was Sibongele. I did not know her sister's identity. I filled these forms after I've received their names.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you have the incident that you gave evidence about or the incidents that you gave evidence about in mind when you gave George instructions to fill out these forms?

MR MODIKOA: I was not writing about those two incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not writing about them did you say?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the interpreter suspects that the applicant doesn't hear correctly, maybe if they can change his earphones? He must be on channel 3, please put him on channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to hear properly now? Are you able to hear properly.

ADV DE JAGER: You should answer, the machine can't take up your nodding of your head, so you say yes or no.

INTERPRETER: Can I start from the third question?

CHAIRPERSON: Of the mechanisms are operating properly.

INTERPRETER: Yes they do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can the witness hear from the phones what is being asked?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I do hear now.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the most important question that is being recently asked is when you filled in this form, or when this form was being completed, were you talking or were you referring to the incidents relating to the burning and attempted murder as you referred to in respect of Miss Sibongele Sambo and a month thereafter the kidnapping, were you referring to those incidents after you completed the application or some other incident?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I was referring to them because we filled this form after we did those incidents then at that time when I filled this form I didn't know their identity.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought you said when you got the order to go kidnap then you knew who you must go kidnap, no so?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I knew that we were going to Extension 5 but I did not have the full information about the identity of the person we're going to kidnap.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you going to kidnap?

MR MODIKOA: I only heard when the commander instructed us that we should go and kidnap Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) knew he was talking about?

MR MODIKOA: I knew that the commander knew the person, he has the full information about the identity of that person. CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about you, did you know who he was talking about?

MR MODIKOA: No, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you find out who Sibongele was by name?

MR MODIKOA: I knew after - when we were filling, after we had filled the forms.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Now the first attack, the arson attack that you carried out on Sibongele's house, who did you receive your orders from?

MR MODIKOA: On arson the order came from Mr Meneer.

MR SWANEPOEL: And at that stage who was the commander of Section 2 or Extension 2?

MR MODIKOA: It was both Meneer and Ben Mashinini.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now when you threw the petrol bomb to Sibongele's house, you said you knew she was inside, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes, I knew.

MR SWANEPOEL: Was anybody else inside the house?

MR MODIKOA: I did not know as to whether there were other people in the house but we knew that Sibongele was in the house but we did not know as to whether there were other people in the house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you look yourself? Did you look through the window before you threw the bomb?

MR MODIKOA: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: How did you know only Sibongele was in the house or how did you know Sibongele was in the house, who told you?

MR MODIKOA: There were members of Inkatha who were drinking alcohol in the house therefore I knew that they would not entertain themselves in her house in her absence.

MR SWANEPOEL: So you knew that there were other people who you say were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party in the house?

MR MODIKOA: They would entertain themselves during the day and they left. I did not know as whether all of them left the house but we had the belief that Sibongele was in the house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Who told you ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But if they've left early and you don't know when they've left, how would you know whether she's still there or whether she left with them?

MR MODIKOA: They were in the car, we were watching when the car left then we confirmed that he was not inside the car.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, you received orders to go and burn a house while you knew she was inside and you're applying for Amnesty for attempted murder. Is that in respect of that offence of the house burning?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: So your instructions was to go and kill her by burning the house in which she was at that stage, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now did you hear whether you succeeded or not? Where did you hear she was still alive the first time?

MR MODIKOA: I knew the following day that she survived.

MR SWANEPOEL: So would it be correct to say that approximately a month later when you got instructions to kidnap her, you were aware of the fact that your leadership wanted her dead?

MR MODIKOA: May you please repeat your question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Am I correct to say that when you got the instructions approximately a month later to go and kidnap her, you were aware of the fact that your leadership wanted her dead. In fact you already tried to kill her once?

MR MODIKOA: Yes, yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now why do you tell the Commission that you were under the impression that you were to kidnap her to take her away for questioning?

MR MODIKOA: When we tried to inform her that she should go with us, she denied then therefore we had to kidnap her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but how did it come that you believed that she was to be taken away for kidnapping - for questioning and not to be shot?

MR MODIKOA: Because he had claimed that he was a member of the ANC and she was lying.

MR SWANEPOEL: What was the accusation against Sibongele? Why did you have to kill her when you threw the petrol bomb at her house?

MR MODIKOA: It's because members of the IFP were burning members of the ANC in the community therefore we had to retaliate by burning an IFP members house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Wasn't it general knowledge amongst both you and your comrades, the members of the group that were instructed to kidnap Sibongele that she was a person whom your leadership wanted to be dead?

MR MODIKOA: May you please repeat your question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Wasn't it common knowledge amongst you and your comrades that your leadership wanted Sibongele dead when you went to kidnap her?

MR MODIKOA: Do you say it was common knowledge that our leadership wanted Sibongele to be killed when we kidnapped her?

MR SWANEPOEL: I'm asking you.

ADV DE JAGER: Listen could you kindly listen now. She was regarded as an enemy of the ANC is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So you received orders to act against her?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And the first order was to burn her house?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And if she's inside the house she should be killed with the burning, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you knew that this person being seen as an enemy should be killed at one stage or another?

MR MODIKOA: At the time when we were throwing the petrol bombs to her house, we wanted to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and therefore at the time you kidnapped her you knew that the ANC wanted her dead, not so?

MR MODIKOA: At the time when we kidnapped her I knew that she was going to be interrogated about her claim that she's a supporter of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew they wanted to kill her a month before already?

MR MODIKOA: Yes, at that time I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not an issue of a question that you only thought they want to question her, you knew in all likelihood she was going to be killed?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I knew that there was that possibility for her to be killed.

MR SWANEPOEL: And further, was it not for the fact that you did not carry a gun that day, you would have been present at the attack on her, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes I would take part.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now just one point that came up now. How did you know she was going to claim to be an ANC supporter?

MR MODIKOA: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you misunderstand Mr Swanepoel. The day of the kidnapping, somehow she had already made that assertion and she was going to be questioned about this assertion.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman. I have nothing further.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: When you received your orders, can you tell us exactly what Meneer had said to you?

MR MODIKOA: You mean about the order for assault or for the kidnapping? It was at night in 1993, as I've explained that I was with Jango and Mdmase and Mafrica. We arrived at her place ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Never mind about that, Ms Patel will probably ask you about that just now. What did Meneer say must happen?

MR MODIKOA: He instructed us to go and burn that house, that's what he said to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say whether Sibongele must die or not?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, that's what we're asking, the full instruction.

MS PATEL: And regarding the ...(intervention)

MR MODIKOA: He instructed us that we should throw petrol bombs in that house so that she should be burnt together with her house because as supporters of the IFP we were burning the houses.

MS PATEL: Did he explain that that is why you were to go and burn her house and kill her if possible?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he give you the name of the person whose house you should go and burn and who should be killed with the burning? Did he mention any name?

MR MODIKOA: He told us that we should go at Sibongele's house.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he specifically say that you should go to Sibongele's house?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you knew whose house it was?

MR MODIKOA: Yes as he has mentioned the name and again the house number I knew.

ADV DE JAGER: So before you acted you knew her name and before you kidnapped her you knew her name, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes but I did not know the identity of Sibongele, I only knew the name.

ADV DE JAGER: So when you filled in this form you knew her name?

MR MODIKOA: I knew the name but I did not know the identity of the person.

ADV DE JAGER: When you kidnapped her you had the name and you had the person together so you knew the name and the identity because here you have got the two together?

MR MODIKOA: I will say it for the second time, I forgot her name because everytime I when I was filling these forms I was filling them with somebody else.

ADV DE JAGER: At the time of the kidnapping what were your specific instructions then from Meneer?

MR MODIKOA: He said we should talk with her peacefully and take her from Extension 5 to Extension 2 and go with her.

MS PATEL: Who did he say should talk with her unless specific instructions regarding that?

MR MODIKOA: No she did not mention a person responsible for talking to her it's an order.

MS PATEL: So in terms of the general order the possibility existed at that stage that you might have been one of those people who would have questioned her?

MR MODIKOA: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Given that at the stage when you received the order to kidnap, right, you say that Meneer gave a general order that she should be questioned. What I'm putting to you is that there is then given that, there's the possibility that you would have been one of those people who would have questioned her, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay, so the order was not only for you to kidnap, the order was for you to question her as well?

MR MODIKOA: The instruction was that we should go and take her at her place at Extension 5.

MS PATEL: No, that wasn't my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you supposed to question her as well?

MR MODIKOA: We arrived and informed her that we should leave, then she denied therefore we had to take her by force to Extension 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let me try again. After she was supposed to be kidnapped, what did Meneer say should happen to her exactly?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, if I may interject here. According to my client's instructions or according to his evidence in chief he testified that the incident of the kidnapping was ordered by Ben Mashinini. My learned friend is still I think leading him on the fact that Meneer gave the specific order whereas Meneer gave the order regarding the arson of the house which occurred a month before. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Whoever gave the order for the kidnapping, were you supposed to have interrogated her as well?

MR MODIKOA: No, we tried to talk to her so that we should go to Extension 2, therefore that is why we had to take her by force. We were not supposed to question her but just to instruct her to go with us.

MS PATEL: Is all that Ben had said to you, that that was the full extent of your instructions?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Modikoa, at Extension 2 whose place was she supposed to be taken to at Extension 2, Extension 2 is a big place. Precisely where at Extension 2 was she to be taken to?

MR MODIKOA: At her house.

ADV MOTATA: Whose house was that at Extension 5 where you were supposed to fetch her from.

MR MODIKOA: I didn't know whose house was that in Extension 5.

ADV MOTATA: So the number given I think 9381, was that number at Extension 5?

MR MODIKOA: That's Extension 2.

ADV MOTATA: This number is at Extension 2, that's her place?

MR MODIKOA: Yes, that is 9381 that is her house number. That Extension 5, I didn't know whose house was that.

ADV MOTATA: How did you find the place when you didn't know?

MR MODIKOA: We didn't know the house number in Extension 5. The 9381 is her house number in Extension 2.

ADV MOTATA: Now do I follow you correctly that you had to fetch her from Extension 5, take her to her house, do I follow you correctly?

MR MODIKOA: We were supposed to take her from Extension 5 and take her to Extension 2 to her house.

ADV MOTATA: Was the questioning supposed to happen at her house about her membership of the organisation?

MR MODIKOA: Yes that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Those were the orders of Mashinini that she must be questioned at her place and not be taken to Mashinini for instance?

MR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: This Extension 2, number 9381, when did you remember this number or where did you learn about this number, this address?

MR MODIKOA: It was after elections because the numbers were written on the walls at that time after the elections.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Just two questions Mr Modikoa. You are 20 years of age, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes you are correct.

MR SAMUELS: And this incident occurred in 1993 so your age at that time would have been fifteen years, is that correct?

MR MODIKOA: Yes you are is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you, I have nothing further Mr Chairperson.

MR SAMUELS: I call Thanduxolo Patrick Mquibi 7375/97 on page 237.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mqibi what language do you wish to speak?

MR MQIBI: Zulu.

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Mr Mquibi how old are you?

MR MQIBI: 44.

MR SAMUELS: And are you a member of the ANC?

MR MQIBI: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: And you were a commander of Extension 2, is that correct?

MR MQIBI: Yes I was then.

MR SAMUELS: Are you also known as Meneer?

MR MQIBI: Yes I'm known as Meneer.

MR SAMUELS: I see. Now Mr Mqibi, you're applying for two counts of arson, is that correct?

MR MQIBI: I didn't burn anyone's house but I sent people to go or I instructed people to burn somebody's houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all he's applying for?

MR SAMUELS: Yes there are two counts of arson. This applicants evidence could be heard in chambers, is that what you're alluding to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: This evidence will be very short, it's only to say "Yes I gave a command and yes it was followed", it will be very short evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SAMUELS: The first incident of arson was to burn down whose home?

MR MQIBI: Mr Masibuko's house.

MR SAMUELS: When was that?

MR MQIBI: February 1993.

MR SAMUELS: And who did you order, who did you give these orders to?

MR MQIBI: Comrades Sibusiso Afrika and other many guys because Phola Park were helping us. The only one that I remember was Sibusiso because I sent him to go and tell other comrades and he told other people from Phola Park as well.

MR SAMUELS: I see and do you know whether the house was burnt down or not?

MR MQIBI: I know it was burnt down.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Masibuko's house.

MR MQIBI: Mr Masibuko's house.

MR SAMUELS: The second incident, whose home did you order to be burnt down?

MR MQIBI: Sibongele's house.

MR SAMUELS: Now what order did you get?

MR MQIBI: After I met with Ben and I discovered that he was from a meeting, the community meeting, I discovered that Sibongele was an IFP member. I got this from Ben Mashinini. As an elderly, older than Ben, I said to Ben if that's the case then she deserves to die including the people who are staying with her. At that time, it was at night, I left with Ben. When we arrived at Danger Zone I met Jambo and Mgwele, I gave them the instruction as well.

MR SAMUELS: Sorry Mr Mqibi, what order did you give them?

MR MQIBI: That Sibongele's house must be burnt including herself if she is inside the house she must be killed there.

MR SAMUELS: I see and did they carry out that order?

MR MQIBI: Yes they did that but after three days.

MR SAMUELS: I see. Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is his evidence in chief.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Mr Mqibi who was or is Mr Masibuko?

MR MQIBI: Would you please the question?

MS PATEL: Who is Mr Masibuko? Why was he a target in other words?

MR MQIBI: As everyone knows that ANC and IFP were fighting. After three years everyone in the township knew exactly who was the member of the IFP and who was the member of the ANC so he was a member of IFP from 1990 up to 1993 when we burnt down his house. We knew exactly that he was a member, not that we suspected that he was a member of the IFP.

MS PATEL: Is that the only reason that he was a target?

MR MQIBI: That's not the only reason. His actions, his words, things that he used to say to people.

MS PATEL: What were these actions, words and things that he used to say to people?

MR MQIBI: Everytime when there was a meeting or when hostel dwellers were going to attack in the townships, he was accompanying the hostel dwellers and he used to oppose everyone from the township and these were his actions and his words. This is why his house was attacked.

MS PATEL: Right and in terms of Sibongele, you said that you received your information from Ben Mashinini that she was an IFP member. Is that the only information that gave to you, regarding her?

MR MQIBI: Yes that's all.

MS PATEL: He didn't say perhaps that she was an informer or anything more?

MR MQIBI: He said even the IFP used to go to her house and after the attacks IFP used to go and celebrate in her house. We didn't attack people's houses because we suspected them but we attacked people's houses because we knew we had the knowledge that we've been there for a long time and we knew Sibongele. We were not suspecting Sibongele, we knew, we were certain that she was an IFP member.

MS PATEL: Can I ask, were you involved in the process of disciplining the members who had raped Sibongele and her sister?

MR MQIBI: No I wasn't a member of a disciplinary committee, I was a commander. When these two boys were disciplined I wasn't in the township, I was in a meeting. We never used to go together, Ben and myself. He will be left behind and I'll go to a meeting or he'll go and I'll be left behind.

MS PATEL: Okay. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Masibuko, have you got the address where he was living?

MR MQIBI: He was staying at number 4, Extension 2.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he still living there?

MR MQIBI: They left, him and his family, I don't know where they've gone to.

ADV DE JAGER: But he left at Extension 4, number?

MR MQIBI: Number 4, Extension 2.

ADV DE JAGER: Which number? You've mentioned a number I couldn't - oh, number 4, Extension 2?

MR MQIBI: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And his house was destroyed?

MR MQIBI: Yes his house was destroyed to ashes.

ADV DE JAGER: You've got no idea what happened to him, whether he is still alive or what's the position?

MR MQIBI: What I'm going to say now is hearsay. I don't have solid evidence. What I heard is that he died.

ADV DE JAGER: The only reason I'm asking is because we must make a recommendation about victims.

MS PATEL: If I may for the record state that our investigative unit have tried without fail to locate this particular victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes mean without success?

MS PATEL: Yes of course.

MR SAMUELS: I close my case for this applicant.

MR MQIBI: Thank you very much.

ADV DE JAGER: He is asking for amnesty, he testified that he in fact ordered them to kill Sibongele in the first instance. They didn't succeed in killing her. He is not applying for any offence in that regard.

MR MQIBI: I don't understand, if you may repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you gave an order for the killing of Sibongele.

MR SAMUELS: Sorry, I met that first point?

CHAIRPERSON: Your or your client gave the order for the killing of Sibongele. In our minds that gives rise to ...

MR SAMUELS: Common purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Criminal liability.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, can I interrupt? I assume you're coming to the point of should the applicant have applied for attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we're just checking whether he wants to or didn't.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, at this very late stage may I have leave to amend his request and ask that the crime of attempted murder be included, that is at a very late stage I appreciate.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think you're amending sort of what you told us here but there's no mention of ...(inaudible) or attempted murder in the application?

MR SAMUELS: Quite correct and again it's my ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's going to fall into that argument we've asked you to address?

MR SAMUELS: Numerous - yes I appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go Mr Mqibi, you are one of the on the ground leaders or used to be in that area, correct?

MR MQIBI: I was a commander that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now while things have happened and there's nothing we can do to change it, people have lost their properties, people were injured, people lost family members, how do you feel about that today?

MR MQIBI: Thank you very much for asking that question, it's a very good question.

CHAIRPERSON: I know it's good that's why I asked it.

MR MQIBI: What happened at that time was terrible, the devil came and was living with us and that's why today we are here to ask for amnesty. We don't know where the devil came from and who brought the devil in South Africa. Even today if you see the people who got injured it's sad, it's sad to everyone because somebody's blood is never quiet or somebody's soul, that's why I'm here today to ask for amnesty. I'm not asking this from the people who suffered only, I'm also asking from other people who suffered, even the whites especially in Section 2, too many whites died there. I'm saying I'm very much sorry, it wasn't our intention, we were defending ourselves and the devil was among everyone of us and now I'm asking for forgiveness, even to Sibongele. It wasn't the intention, the devil came, we were living together and the devil came and divided us. He made sure that some people died and some are suffering and I want to tell everyone in this house that devil just came and we are very sorry. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you see, how are things in the area now, are they quite, peaceful or what?

MR MQIBI: It's quite and very peaceful.

CHAIRPERSON: And the last time this devil came to pay his attention to the area was just before the last elections, not so?

MR MQIBI: It was just after the election when the devil passed and people lived. If I can tell you today how it was and then take you today and go with you to Thokoza, you will think that I'm lying.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I know what you're talking about. How do I ask the question you know, would you agree that was real madness, people dying for nothing?

MR MQIBI: I don't know whether people were mad but what I can agree with is that the devil was there.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not saying the people were made I'm saying what happened there was madness, it was not right?

MR MQIBI: The situation was really bad. Whether it was madness or what I don't know but it was very bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Now next year these elections come along again, you know that?

MR MQIBI: Yes I know that very well.

CHAIRPERSON: And you know the devil may just come pay his respects again, not so? It always happens election time.

MR MQIBI: That's correct because the devil can come again but he likes those situations, we didn't know the first time he was going to come and he came and he might come again.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think the people of the area can learn the lesson of the last time and resist doing and repeating what happened last time, if the devil does come back here?

MR MQIBI: I would say people who had been present, people who had experienced the past, if there's anyone who is going to allow the devil to enter his heart, that person won't be a living human being.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that people have learned their lesson?

MR MQIBI: Yes they have truly learned to wait for the devil so that when he comes he mustn't enter their hearts.

CHAIRPERSON: Well all I can say is that I hope that you are right and if the devil does come I can only plead with you to do your best to avoid him being successful.

MR MQIBI: I'm happy, thanks for that, I hope it will be like that too.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SAMUELS: I call Sandile Ngubeni, case number 7298/97, page 180. Mr Chairperson, may I increase the number of offences that this applicant will apply for, he will also apply for possession of an AK47.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that the only thing that he's applying for?

MR SAMUELS: No, no, he's applying for kidnapping, murder and possession of an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: You say kidnapping and murder?

MR SAMUELS: And possession of AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: That's three?

MR SAMUELS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubeni, what language would you prefer to use?

MR NGUBENI: Zulu.

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Mr Ngubeni, how old are you?

MR NGUBENI: 31 years.

MR SAMUELS: Do you live in Thokoza?

MR NGUBENI: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: During 1993 were you a commander of a self defence unit in Thokoza?

MR NGUBENI: No, I will like to correct it, it's from 1993.

MR SAMUELS: I see. Were you a commander?

MR NGUBENI: Yes, during 1993.

MR SAMUELS: And what unit did you command?

MR NGUBENI: Unit in F Section.

MR SAMUELS: I see.

MR NGUBENI: Now you're applying for amnesty for three crimes, kidnapping, murder and possession of an AK47, is that correct?

MR NGUBENI: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Now tell us in your own words about the kidnapping, who did you kidnap?

MR NGUBENI: If I remember well, it was 1993. I can't remember the specific date but the month was October. I as a commander and Vus Pamula, Shane Menges, Dumasani Khosas, we left unit F and went to Extension 2. We were going to collect Sipho Makatini.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took that decision?

MR NGUBENI: It was myself as a commander.

MR SAMUELS: Continue?

MR NGUBENI: When we arrived at Extension 2 where he was staying, we asked him to accompany us back to Unit F. He refused, therefore we forced him and took him back. While we were kidnapping him, going back to unit F, when we arrived at Unit F Dumasani Khosa shot him and I also finished him and that's how he died. That's the end of the story.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, just repeat that now, you kidnapped him and then what happened after that?

MR NGUBENI: We kidnapped him and took him with us to Unit F which is called Danger Zone. That's where we shot him.

MR SAMUELS: Why did you kidnap and shoot Sipho Makatini?

MR NGUBENI: The reason we shot Sipho was because supporters of the IFP, after killing people in the township they will celebrate and blow their whistles in the township.

MR SAMUELS: So just because he celebrated he was killed?

MR NGUBENI: That wasn't the only reason, the other thing that hurt me so much, that made me to take the decision that he should be killed was - I can't remember well whether it was Saturday or Sunday, IFP members were coming from a funeral at Phola Park, they were coming from attacking, they were attacking Phola Park when they were passing our place. They entered one house and stabbed one woman with a spear.

Secondly, there was a young child whose age I can't remember and that house was under three, was stabbed with a shield and they said this woman's stomach is dirty because she gave birth to ANC supporter. Again they found someone, a lady who was pregnant and one of the members did kick that pregnant lady on her stomach.

ADV MOTATA: Was Sipho Makatini present when this happened?

MR NGUBENI: I will say it was happening right next to his place.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is off.

CHAIRPERSON: This whole killing of Makatini was more of revenge?

MR NGUBENI: I can agree that that is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason?

MR NGUBENI: My understanding is the IFP started attacking us during 1990 and while we were being attacked Makatini was so happy about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Makatini a member of the IFP?

MR NGUBENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he do anything physical to anybody? Did he attack anybody or did he kill anybody or what?

MR NGUBENI: ...(indistinct)

ADV MOTATA: Please, we don't want Zulu again, give us English.

INTERPRETER: Okay, I promise it will be English.

MR NGUBENI: A police came to me, they were called the ISU. When they arrived they were together with Makatini. They arrived at me and asked why were my eyes red. I told them my eyes were red because I inherited them from my father. They said I'm an IFP member, they're going to take me to the hostel, that's where they're going to leave me. They took me with him, when we arrived at Buyafuti Hostel one father who was an Induna came. It was someone whom I helped on the way in Standerton, this is the person who managed to rescue me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have regard Makatini as a political opponent?

MR NGUBENI: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have regarded Makatini as a political opponent?

MR NGUBENI: I regarded him as a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you regard him as a political opponent?

MR NGUBENI: Yes that's correct because the Inkatha people were troubling us.

MR SAMUELS: And finally, what happen did you have?

MR NGUBENI: I was armed with an AK47 and a knobkierrie.

MR SAMUELS: And did you realise that being in possession of AK47 was illegal?

MR NGUBENI: Yes I knew it was illegal but because of the situation whether it was lawful or it was not lawful, it was something that didn't come to my mind.

MR SAMUELS: I see, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: I've got no question, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you take all the people to Danger Zone and kill them there after you've kidnapped them?

MR NGUBENI: I would like to tell the whole house that that was the most dangerous place and all things were happening there.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but now you're kidnapping somewhere else and you bring him to danger zone and you kill him there so you create the impression that people are being killed there, isn't that so?

MR NGUBENI: Can you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: We've had evidence that people were kidnapped in Extension 5 and then brought to Danger Zone and being killed there. Was that the pattern in Thokoza?

MR NGUBENI: I don't understand your question.

ADV DE JAGER: We've heard a number of people testify about deaths and kidnapping and assaults and whatever and it seems to us that everytime that somebody got killed or attacked or kidnapped, it happened in Danger Zone. What was so special about Danger Zone?

MR NGUBENI: Chairperson and the people in the house, this place called the Danger Zone is a place which had been demolished. When we were trying to stop the IFP from infiltrating our side, we will barricade at the danger zone, so that's the reason why it was used as a place to kill people.

ADV MOTATA: Now we have been whilst we were in Vosloorus shown a map of the area in respect of Schoeman Street and Khumalo Street, if we speak of this Danger Zone, where would you place it with regard to the hostels lining around there?

MR NGUBENI: Danger Zone is at Schoeman Road at my Section. When you're at Khumalo it's far from it, it's far.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were a commander on the ground there in Section F?

MR NGUBENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And life wasn't very easy during those days and living in the way that was abnormal?

MR NGUBENI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand matters have improved somewhat and there's a bit of peace in the area today?

MR NGUBENI: I didn't understand, I didn't hear you?

CHAIRPERSON: Life in the area today is quite different to what it was that time?

MR NGUBENI: Yes it's peaceful, you can even come and join us and stay with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and a lot of things happened during that time, people dying, people defending themselves and a lot of decisions were made at the time which today we look at weren't very nice decisions. It may have been necessary, I'm not saying it was, you people may have thought it was necessary and tactics were employed etcetera. How do you feel about it today, that people died and lost property, lost limbs and soforth. How do you feel about it today?

MR NGUBENI: Chairperson, I feel very hurt because my work, I normally go to the choir and sing and go and play football. Because of the situation I have to leave this ...(indistinct) and now that it is peaceful, I'm back in the ...(indistinct) I continue my life very well.

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you feel in respect of the families of those who had died during that period, who had lost property and been injured, how do you feel towards them?

MR NGUBENI: It's also a sad story and I feel bad about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you attempted to talk to people and victims who you know of?

MR NGUBENI: Yes, even our brothers in the IFP camp, we are now in good terms and work together because as former commanders we launch another command where we're one and call ourselves Simunye, meaning we are one. Some of those people were members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, I'm pleased to hear that. It is to be hoped that that peace can be maintained for good, that people must have learned from the mistakes of the past and there will be attempts to affect that peace and I think the residents and the leadership should remember what happened before so that it's not repeated, would you agree?

MR NGUBENI: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you playing soccer together?

CHAIRPERSON: Members of the IFP and the ANC do they play in the same team? Soccer?

MR NGUBENI: Yes we play in the same teams and also in different teams.

ADV DE JAGER: I hope you'll do very good and win the league next year, hey?

MR NGUBENI: Yes that's correct, we're going to replace Bafana Bafana National Squad, Soccer Squad. Thank you.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, I seem to have run out of witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no more applications?

MR SAMUELS: No there's nobody here that I can see. If I may have five minutes please if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just check.

MR SAMUELS: We've been through yes, quite a bit one page 1.

CHAIRPERSON: There's none on page 1.

MR SAMUELS: On page 1, Vusi James, in fact may I update you, Vusi James Ngubani will be a matter heard in Chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: The three persons, Molise, Khanya and Mtsweni, those persons are still outstanding, Embrose May has testified and the next page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Cyril?

MR SAMUELS: Cyril Chisoma is not here. Oh sorry, may I call Cyril Chisoma?

CHAIRPERSON: Please. Mr Samuel, is this the last applicant from your side?

MR SAMUELS: Yes, there are still three persons, Molise on page 1, Molise, Khanya and Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: What about them?

MR SAMUELS: I'm afraid these persons we still haven't traced, we have great difficulty them, we are continuing to do so, if we do not trace them my submission is going to be to have these matters adjourned sine die and they can take their place on the roll, on any roll for now. These are the only matters we have and we should finish them all.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm giving you until 11 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you. Mr Chairman, may I in their defence, attempt in their defence just to say this, I think many of the witnesses were given letters by whoever saying that you should appear on certain days. Now I'm not taking the point that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'll tell you what has happened. The person appointed head of the ANC TRC desk made those arrangements with the office but I understand that the understanding between them is that those dates are convenience dates and there may be changes like happened now.

MR SAMUELS: No I do not wish to take the point that it is a specific date, no, I just meant that to motivate.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand what you're saying. I must say I'm extremely disappointed that that person who is head of the TRC desk of the ANC has chosen to absent himself from the major portion of the hearing because there are a couple of things I would like to have asked him and the difficulty some of your clients have is traceable to him.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairman. May Mr Chisoma be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Where are we on the page?

MR SAMUELS: Page 83.

CHAIRPERSON: Volume 2?

MR SAMUELS: Yes Volume 2.

ADV DE JAGER: I haven't got a page 83.

MR SAMUELS: Page 83 is I think up to page 40 something. I know there is some confusion with the numbering. Mine, it's up to the red folder if that helps.

ADV DE JAGER: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

MR CHISOMA: Zulu.

CYRIL CHISOMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, this application is not signed?

MR SAMUELS: May he ...

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to adjourn now, probably for the day. Will you sort this matter out. We'll adjourn till 9 a.m. If I'm walking in here at 9 a.m. and there's nobody here at the tables, I'm striking the matter off.