CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all. I respectfully declare these proceedings opened, this, the 18th day of January 1999. These proceedings being amongst the first to be held by the Truth and Reconciliation's Amnesty Committee in the new year. Before we commence, may I welcome you all and take this opportunity further to convey the best wishes of this Committee to you all in the new year and not forgetting particularly our diligent staff comprising the logistics officers, the media people, our evidence leader and their analysts, our general staff, without whose support we would not be able to conduct these proceedings as effective as we've been able to. I also want to convey my best wishes to members of the translation services without whose assistance it would be impossible and very cumbersome to conduct these proceedings. My also best wishes to members of the media who have played a very important role in enabling the Commission and this Committee to achieve its important objective. Also my best wishes to members of the legal profession whose assistance has been at most of the best of times very good but at other times quite painful but indispensable. Ms Patel, are we ready to proceed?

MS PATEL: We are, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which matter are we starting with?

MS PATEL: We'll start with the matter of Jeffrey Mfazo, application number 3888/96.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, before we proceed may I introduce the panel which will be sitting for this week to hear all the applications set down for the week? On my right hand side I have Advocate Motata. On my left hand side Advocate Bosman. Will you please kindly place your names on the roll, the legal counsel appearing in the next matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: For the record, Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to proceed with your matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I'm ready to proceed and in this matter I don't have any supplementary affidavit to assist us in leading the applicant. I'll lead the applicant orally, Mr Chairperson. May the applicant be sworn in Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the applicant speaks Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Xhosa?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata will you please administer the oath?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.

GEOFFREY M MFAZO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, can you for the record put your names - tell the Committee your names, your full names?

MR MFAZO: My name is Jeffrey Mfazo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, is it correct that you are staying at 281 Eloff Street in New Brighton, Noupoort?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that you were born on the 21st October 1969?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were a supporter of PAC during the time of 1993?

MR MFAZO: Yes I was a PAC supporter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In particular around the 4th April 1993?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you start to be a supporter of PAC?

MR MFAZO: I started in 1989.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee does the PAC at that particular moment during the time of April 1993 had any members or branch in Noupoort, in your township?

MR MFAZO: Yes there were members but there was no branch.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, do you still remember the events of the 4th April 1993 which led to you being convicted?

MR MFAZO: Yes I can still remember.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee where were you on the day in question and what happened?

MR MFAZO: On the 4th April I was in the squatter camp at KwaZulu at a shebeen in ...[indistinct]. We were drinking there. There was a person by the name of Thozamele Induna with his friends who were there drinking with us. As they were sitting there discussing about the organisation, but they later said that in my presence they cannot discuss anything about that organisation but I told ...

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt Mr Mfazo? As you are giving your evidence it is being translated so I would appreciate if you could go a little slower to enable the translators to be able to pick up each and every word you are saying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was being said by organisations at the shebeen?

MR MFAZO: We were sitting there discussing about the issues concerning the organisation and they later decided to keep quiet because I was there. I don't know what is it they were discussing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What organisation were they talking about that you were not ...[inaudible]

MR MFAZO: They were ANC members.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed then, what happened after they said that they must stop talking because somebody was not a member of the ANC?

MR MFAZO: I continued drinking and Thozamele Induna was arguing with me and we had a quarrel thereafter and I told him thereafter that I was not there for the organisation issues, I was there to drink and I kept on drinking. After that I left for the toilet. I realised that they were following me, it was himself and Sipho. I heard a knock at the toilet and he was already inside and I told him that I was inside the toilet. When I went out of the toilet they were in front of the door. I heard stabbing, stabbing me at the back, that was Sipho stabbing me. When I realised that I took my knife and Thozamele also had his knife. I stabbed him and he turned and he ran away and I also ran away. I saw a police casspir outside. I was lying in the graveyard because the people were pursuing me. When the police van left I went home and when I arrived home I was told that the police were there looking for me at my home. I went straight to the police station. When I arrived there I introduced myself there and I told them I heard the police were looking for me. They phoned the other police station and the police van came and they took me into the van. I was taken to that police station, the other police station. I saw an I.D. document there in that police station, it was on the chair and there was a trouser, a pair of trousers and a shirt soaked in blood and I was told that the person had died. I got a shock because it was not my intention to kill him. I was then arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay Mr Mfazo, let's go back then to the - where this incident took place. After you went to the toilet and there was a knock and you came out of the toilet and you met the two, the deceased and this Sipho, was there anything said to you there or they just stabbed you?

MR MFAZO: Nothing was said, they just stabbed me and I also took out my knife.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know the reason for them stabbing you?

MR MFAZO: The reason was that we had a quarrel before previously. I think there was a grudge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you tell the Committee what was this grudge about or the quarrel, what was it about?

MR MFAZO: We had a quarrel over a girl.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And at the time when they came to you, who actually quarrelled with you over a girl?

MR MFAZO: That was previously, it was not on this particular day, this quarrel over a girl took place at some time before the real incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm saying is that who quarrelled with you over a girl amongst the two gentlemen, Sipho and the deceased?

MR MFAZO: It was Thozamele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now my question again is that since you have already told the Committee that they did not say anything, they just stabbed you. You told the Committee that you did not know the reason except that you had a quarrel with them. So every time when they stabbed you, you thought that is because of that quarrel over a girl?

MR MFAZO: The quarrel that we had, it was because of the fact that I was a PAC member and they were ANC members. They wanted to recruit me and I told them that I'll never ever - I'll never join ANC, that was my own choice to be a PAC member, that was my own choice.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, during your trial you told the court that the knife you stabbed the deceased with, you took it from him and today you are telling the Committee that you drew your own knife. Can you tell the Committee what is the difference today?

MR MFAZO: The reason for that I wanted to be free, I was trying to escape conviction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that during the trial Sipho told the court that you are the person who called the deceased, you were outside and you called the deceased and he did not know what you were talking about there and he saw you chasing the deceased. What do you say to that?

MR MFAZO: That is not true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct to say that you were eventually convicted of this offence in 1995, on the 26th May 1995?

MR MFAZO: Yes I was convicted for this case while I was still on trial. They went to my house, they broke into my house and they burnt down my house. The ANC members were looking for petrol, they wanted to burn down my house, my home. After the trial I realised that in the township they don't need me. I went to Cape Town and I told the magistrate that I did not have a place to stay and I was leaving for Cape Town. They told me that they would contact me on certain dates so I had to stay in contact. I did that but just before the last date of the trial I didn't have money so I couldn't go to court. I was later arrested and the case was started all over again, I was sent to Noupoort in 1994. I was later released after the trial in November 1994, I was released and I was told to attend the court regularly whenever necessary until I was sentenced. I did that until I was sentenced.

MR MBANDAZAYO: My question was that you were convicted in May 1995 to five years imprisonment and you have just been released from jail, is that correct?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you, Mr Mfazo, is there anything you want to add to what you have already told the Committee about this incident?

MR MFAZO: There is nothing else.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairperson at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Do you have any questions Ms Ramula, to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Mfazo, you stated in your evidence in chief that you said certain things at the trial merely because you didn't want to be convicted. What else did you tell the court that was a lie or was what you had alluded to in your evidence in chief the only thing you lied about regarding the knife?

MR MFAZO: What I said and that was not true it's the fact that the knife belonged to the deceased.

MS PATEL: And whatever else you told the court was correct as it had happened?

MR MFAZO: The only truth is the one that I'm saying here today in front of you.

MS PATEL: Right, let me ask you a few more specific questions then. At the court you told the magistrate there that you and the deceased were at a tavern together and that he was dancing there in front of you and that he kept knocking or that he knocked the table at which you were sitting at and that is how the argument started. Is that a lie or is that the truth?

MR MFAZO: That was not true.

MS PATEL: It's on page 48 of the bundle, it's part of the judgement, it's the second paragraph. So why did you make that up?

MR MFAZO: The reason for me to say that, I didn't want to incriminate myself there.

MS PATEL: Incriminate yourself how, how were you going to incriminate yourself by saying this?

MR MFAZO: I thought that I would escape conviction.

MS PATEL: What is it that you had done wrong that you thought you would be convicted of?

MR MFAZO: It's the fact that I stabbed Thozamele.

MS PATEL: But you've just told us that you stabbed him because they had attacked you and that there were two of them and you had to defend yourself, that's not grounds for a conviction? You were the victim here, not so?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: So then why the need for the lies?

MR MFAZO: The reason for me to lie, I was very shocked on hearing that Thozamele had passed away, I was still a little bit dizzy.

MS PATEL: And that's why you lied at the court?

MR MFAZO: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: What was the time difference between this incident and when you had actually gone to court for the trial? How long after did you go to court with this because you had told us already that you'd ran away from home and you'd gone to Cape Town and eventually after a long time this matter came to court. So were you still dizzy after all this time?

MR MFAZO: It was after a long time, it was after a long time after the incident. It was a long time after the incident.

MS PATEL: Okay and you're sure you only stabbed him once?

MR MFAZO: Yes I stabbed him only once and he turned away and I also ran away.

MS PATEL: And you say that you were stabbed as well?

MR MFAZO: Yes I was stabbed as well.

MS PATEL: Where were you stabbed?

MR MFAZO: At my back.

MS PATEL: Did you receive treatment for this?

MR MFAZO: It was just a minor wound.

MS PATEL: Did you inform the police about this?

MR MFAZO: Yes I told the police and I showed them and they told me that it was just a minor wound, there was no need for me to go to the doctor.

MS PATEL: Why did you not say this at the trial, why did you not tell the magistrate that you were stabbed as well?

MR MFAZO: I told that story before the magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he did that, the only thing that he did not disclose to the magistrate was that he had been stabbed by Sipho.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, I withdraw that question.

Did the deceased hit you at all?

MR MFAZO: No.

MS PATEL: At the trial it was said that there was an altercation between you and the deceased before he was in fact stabbed. Do you deny that at all?

MR MFAZO: Please repeat your question?

MS PATEL: At the trial it was said that there was a fight before the stabbing between yourself and the deceased. Did that ever happen?

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel, may I just ask you for clarification, to which lines you are referring because I seem to remember that it was said that it was an argument but not a fight. Could we just get clarity on that?

MS PATEL: Page 50 of the judgement, the second paragraph, the magistrate had said that:

"He was the person who started the fight. He is the person who hit the deceased first with the fist."

and at the end of the paragraph it says:

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Do you deny that?

MR MFAZO: There was no fight, when I went out of the toilet I was stabbed and I had to take my knife and stab also but there was no fight.

MS PATEL: Regarding the conflict, you'd mentioned that there was conflict between the ANC and the PAC in the area. Can you elaborate on that? What was the nature of this conflict?

MR MFAZO: It was not a conflict but the ANC members were against me because I was a PAC member, it was not a conflict that was caused by the organisation, the whole organisation, but it was only individuals from the ANC organisation who were fighting me because I was a member of the PAC.

MS PATEL: And what was this about specifically?

MR MFAZO: I said before that there was a grudge that was held against me. I don't think the reasons were based on the fact that they wanted me to join the organisation, I think there was a grudge between myself and them.

CHAIRPERSON: Which them are you referring to Mr Mfazo, can you name the persons that you had grudge with?

MR MFAZO: It was Thozamene Induna and Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say that the members of the ANC were against you because you were not a PAC member, you are in fact referring to two persons and that's the deceased and his friend Sipho?

MR MFAZO: Yes because they indicated that the identified me because they even went to my house and they broke into my house and burnt it down.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that? Was that before the stabbing took place?

MR MFAZO: It was when I was still in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but the question which was posed to you by Ms Patel was that what was the reason for them having a grudge against you. Now she is referring to obviously a period before the stabbing took place.

MR MFAZO: Just before the stabbing we had a argument there and then I told them that I was not there at the shebeen to discuss about the organisation's issues. I was only there to drink and thereafter they decided to follow me when I went to the toilet and I didn't know what their intention was.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.

MS PATEL: The grudge that you refer to, it was really about this woman wasn't it? That was the real reason, it was about this woman, it wasn't about the discussion that you would have had or that you allegedly had whilst you were still in the shebeen?

MR MFAZO: Yes the grudge was about the girl that we had an argument or quarrel about.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mfazo?

MR MOTATA: I've got none Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I've no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to call any further witnesses in support of your client's application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson, that's the only witness I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you closing your application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel do you propose to lead any evidence?

MS PATEL: No I don't, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case, are you in a position to give us your oral address Mr Mbandazayo, which we hope will be short?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I ready to proceed with the argument Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, the issues that are clear in this matter is that this took place in a shebeen and it's clear that people were drunk and of course it's known those times many issues do come up in a shebeen like political arguments on organisations. It's clear that even this one was on that context but surpassing, I must consider it was the first time that this one of woman come up, I consider that one, I was not aware of that one. I thought that it was political all the way, it was revolving around the organisation. I did not know that there's another issue, it came up during - now my leading of evidence that there was something else but if we would take the evidence of the applicant, though he is not saying in so many words as eloquent as one would put it, the way I understood his evidence is that he thought that what they did to him was because they had a grudge which was as a result of a quarrel over a girl and this grudge was couched in political terms, in terms of ANC/PAC politics. That's how I understood it that though this quarrel was about - started there as ANC/PAC organisation, but he believed that it was because of the grudge over a girl though it was couched in ANC/PAC. Now my argument would be that if then that at that time he believed that it was ANC/PAC thing, then he had a right to act in the way he did but now one would ask the question why wouldn't then if you knew that this was nothing to do with the ANC/PAC but it's over a girl now you apply for amnesty when you know that it has nothing to do with politics? Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I wouldn't be able to answer that one, I'll leave it as it is but what I want the Committee to take into account is that the applicant has been honest enough to come even to tell the Committee about that, we didn't know that there was a question of a girl and it shows that he is an honest person, he's telling the Committee what - he has nothing to lose, he has been released, he has served his term, he is out of jail. He has nothing to lose, he is not going to go back to jail, he has no reason to come and lie to this Committee and as such I would like the Committee to take those into account when they are deciding whether this matter deserves that the applicant should be granted amnesty. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you therefore conceding that from the evidence that has been given to this Committee, no case has been made for the granting of amnesty as the applicant has himself stated quite unequivocally that the motive for the killing was because of the grudge he had over a girl with the deceased? That being so, can that be any reason to still consider this application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I don't know whether maybe I didn't get it correctly in the meantime, I thought that, ...[indistinct] that he believed that they have a grudge over him, not necessarily that he himself had a grudge against them.

CHAIRPERSON: My notes indicate that on the question posed by Ms Patel towards the later part of her cross-examination, the applicant considered that there was a grudge that he and Thozamele had over the girl, that was the evidence and those are the way my notes are reading.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if that's the case I would concede if that's the position Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, though myself I interpreted, I thought that he's saying that Thozamele had a grudge against him over the quarrel which ensued over a girl, that Thozamele had a grudge against him, not necessarily that he himself had a grudge against Thozamele.

CHAIRPERSON: If I were to take your line of argument, if he did not himself had a grudge against Thozamele, has he made any - has he advanced any reason that would give him a political motive to have acted the way he did?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I must concede that it's a very thin line, one would look for it in order to come to that conclusion. You'd have to stretch your mind to come to that conclusion when the only conclusion will be that because of the quarrel that they were discussing political issues and that it was said that we can't discuss this in the presence of a member of another political organisation and after that he left and thereafter they followed him and they stabbed him. One would only assume that it was because of that otherwise Chairperson, there's nothing which one would say is direct that this was indeed a political motivated factor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact Mr Mbandazayo, during your leading of your client in his evidence in chief you asked him what was the reason for the stabbing and I have my notes are saying:

and I think that was his evidence in chief pursuant to your own line of questioning. Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I don't think there's any need to lead argument in this matter except to urge that the application be denied for not having complied with the requirements of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, Mr Mbandazayo, this Committee will be in a position to pronounce it's decision tomorrow morning. I don't think there's a need for Mr Mfazo to be present when we do so because you will be here to represent his interest.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Patel are we ready to proceed with the next application?

MS PATEL: I'm in the hands of Mr Mbandazayo in that regard Honourable Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I would like to know which one we are - there's Dingane, Wanga and Mpotso, Molefe, I would like - which one are we going to be the second, I'm not sure which one is going to follow Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we were advised earlier on by Ms Patel that you would be consulting with Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga with a view of leading both applicants once we are through with the first matter that we would have decided to embark upon so we are ready to hear Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga if you are ready to proceed and lead their evidence but if you want to start with Mr Mpotso and Mr Molefe would also be able to hear their evidence. We are completely at your hands.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason why I'm asking is that Wanga arrived, Dingane arrived a little bit later now when the applicant Mfazo was arriving so that we were going to start because they brought a wrong Dingane initially so I was not - could not be in a position to consult with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you in that case properly request us to give an indulgence of a few minutes to complete your application in respect of the Dingane and Wanga matter and then advise us as soon as you are through so that we can foresee it in respect of that matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, I'll be in a position to proceed within twenty minutes with that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll grant you that indulgence, we are aware that you've been given great difficulties by our office and these delays are not of your own making but of our own making and we wish to apologise and hope that things will be sorted out so that in future we'll maybe able to start timeously.

Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for about twenty minutes when we'll be starting with the next matter, thank you.

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are we in a position to proceed now with your second application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I'm ready to proceed but I would like to take direction from the Committee which matter will we start with, is the one Kirkwood or Grahamstown?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you are leading evidence on behalf of - you are assisting your clients to lead evidence to assist the Committee, so I think you will have to give us an indication of how you want to conduct the proceedings. We are completely at your hands.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason I'm asking is that there's the other one, they are involved, there are two, another one. The other one is only one, so should we take them all simultaneously, the two matters?

CHAIRPERSON: I think for purposes of convenience, you may start with a matter where the applicant is I think Mr Wanga, he is involved in a matter that does not involve Mr Dingane, then we proceed with the one in which they are jointly involved which is the Kirkwood matter if I remember well?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. May Mr Wanga be sworn in, Mr Chairperson?

B S WANGA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, is it correct that you originally stay at 138 Stocker Street, New Brighton?

MR WANGA: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it also correct that you were born on the 9th March 1967?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I also correct that you are currently in prison, serving 24 years imprisonment?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, before we proceed any further regarding the matter that happened in Grahamstown in 1985, can you for the benefit of this Committee, tell the Committee which organisation do you belong?

MR WANGA: PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: It was early '80's, I think 1982.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: The person who recruited me passed away, Sipho Mkumkulu. He is the one who recruited me to join the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The reason I'm asking you is that PAC at the time was banned, that's why I'm asking how did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: There were organisations that were under PAC like AZANU.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat that answer?

MR WANGA: What I'm saying is that I joined PAC because there were organisations which were working with the PAC like AZANU, they were preaching the same politics about the land.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, Mr Wanga can you tell the Committee is there anything you know what - what connection do you have with the AZAPO or BCMA?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, that the reason that there was AZAPO, they were preaching the matter of the land and at the time the PAC was banned inside the country. They were preaching the same matter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you trying to tell this Committee that at the time of this incident in 1985 you were a member of AZAPO?

MR WANGA: I was not a member of AZAPO, I belonged to the PAC, we were doing PAC's job although the PAC was not inside the country.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, can you finally clarify this point, what connection did you have with AZAPO?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, what AZAPO was saying or what AZAPO was all about, was the struggle of the people's land and the Pan Africanist Congress was also concerned about that matter, that is why I'm saying that when I was clarifying this, I used AZAPO names in my form because the PAC have distanced itself about the TRC matters.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Mbandazayo?

Mr Wanga, I still do not understand your responses to questions posed by your legal representatives. You have completed three different application forms. In respect of the two applications you completed, you stated that you were a member of BCM. What does that stand for?

MR WANGA: BCM? Black Convention Movement.

CHAIRPERSON: And how is it related to AZAPO?

MR WANGA: What BCM was doing was the same as what AZAPO was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the third application you indicated that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania. Why did you have to state two different liberation movements and that is what your legal representative is trying to get from you, he needs you to explain that to the Committee because it is important for us to know why you sought to put two different liberation movements in respect of an application which deals with the same act which you purported to act on behalf of a particular organisation?

MR WANGA: I made a mistake, I knew that I made an application under the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying you made a mistake, what was the nature of the mistake you made when you put in two different liberation movements. We need to get that clarification, it is very important to us.

MR WANGA: I've already stated that the reason that I made the application and I wrote AZAPO, AZAPO was working together with the PAC because at the time that I was making the application the PAC had distanced itself from the TRC. Since the AZAPO was preaching or was talking the same language as the PAC so I decided to write the AZAPO name although I knew that I was a member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say there the reason why you inserted the name of AZAPO in your application because the PAC was distancing itself from the TRC, what do you mean? Are you saying the PAC had advised it's members not to apply to the TRC, is that what you're saying and that's why you inserted AZAPO instead of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this information that the PAC had advised it's members not to apply to the TRC?

MR WANGA: When all this was happening we were in prison. No we had no connections with anybody when this process started.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know that the PAC had discouraged it's members from applying for amnesty to the TRC?

MR WANGA: Everything that was happening here in South Africa at that time, it was publicised. As a result if you were a person who was concerned or interested in such matters you would know what was required and what was not required.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that the first application you made you didn't even put the name of AZAPO, you put BCM?

MR WANGA: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: And the same thing happened a few months thereafter when you made your second application. Did someone tell you that the PAC had relented in it's stance against advising people to approach the TRC for applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, the PAC said this in public that it was against the TRC. I've already indicated that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then if you knew that the PAC was opposed to people applying for amnesty to the TRC, why did you then on the 20th September 1997 submit an application in which you stated that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress?

MR WANGA: The PAC at that time had already agreed for us to make application forms because the Operational Director had confirmed or stated that the members were allowed to make applications to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you approached personally and given that directive by an official of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Leaders of PAC did visit us in St Albans but I don't remember when but they went there a lot of times.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they personally visit and advise you against applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: Can you please repeat your question ma'am?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you personally visited by any member of the PAC and advised against applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: Nobody came to me but the leaders of the PAC that came, they told us the reasons why they were now saying that we should make the applications to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'm indebted to the Members of the Committee.

Mr Wanga, can you still remember the events of 1985 in Grahamstown, what took place in 1985 in Grahamstown?

Sorry Chairperson, in fact I was - I started with the wrong one, I started with the Kirkwood, I'm supposed to proceed with Kirkwood not Grahamstown so I was told that I started with Grahamstown.

Mr Wanga, can you tell the Committee about the events in Kirkwood on the 28th November 1988. Do you still remember that date?

MR WANGA: Yes I still remember that date.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who gave you an instruction to go to Mr Claassens farm, if I'm not mistaken, in Kirkwood?

MR WANGA: Our leader gave us the instruction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, we want the name of the person who gave you an order to go to that farm and the actual instruction he gave you and tell the Committee how many were you when you went there?

MR WANGA: It was myself together with a gentleman next to me and two others but one has passed away. The person who gave us that instruction was Jabu Mdunge who was our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have not yet told the Committee about the names, the names of the person involved, the person who died and the other one. You have not yet told the Committee.

MR WANGA: The gentleman next to me was Aaron Dingane and it was myself and Zalisele Memani and Dumele Mashuma and the deceased is Vuyisile Andries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where are the other people who were involved in this matter with the exception of the one who passed away?

MR WANGA: They were released.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what was the nature of the instruction given by Mdunge, who was actually given the instructions? Gave the instruction to all of you as a group or he gave the instruction to an individual, to yourself and where did he give you this instruction?

MR WANGA: At the time we made a decision. There was a house in Vierplaas that we used to use. We would go and meet in that house when we were planning operations in the farms. He then met with Aaron Dingane and the rest of us but it took us some days before we met him. We used to go there three times to meet that place, three times to make sure that we were going to do as he gave us the instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't get that one. Did you used to meet three times a day or three times a week?

MR WANGA: At various times, different times, we had times that we used to meet because we're not all staying in Vierplaas but we used to meet in Vierplaas when we had meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether it was properly translated, just a few seconds ago you had said something about having met at this particular house about three times, now I didn't get whether it was three times a day or three times a week?

MR WANGA: I said we met three times before we went to this operation. I didn't say three times a day, I just said three times.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga can you tell the Committee about Mdunge, Jabu Mdunge, where was he from and who was he?

MR WANGA: We knew Jabu Mdunge as our commander. He was the one who was giving us instructions concerning the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know where he was coming from?

MR WANGA: Not exactly but we knew that he was a South African, he was also a member of the PAC but I don't know whether he was from Durban or Johannesburg.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now where is Jabu Mdunge now?

MR WANGA: I think he died. When we were arrested he was still alive but we heard that he died in 1990 or 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now tell the Committee who gave Jabu Mdunge information about the farm as you indicated he was not around from here so definitely he did not know anything about the farm in Kirkwood?

MR WANGA: The deceased Vuyisile Andries, he was staying in Kirkwood and I also had friends in Kirkwood. We used to use Vuyisile to get information concerning the farms and we would visit Vuyisile Andries in order to inspect or to look at that place and then we'd go back to Jabu and give him a report. They would then take steps and visit Vuyisile Andries to see for himself. He would then agree or give us instructions to continue with the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was the nature of the instruction given to you by Jabu Mdunge, what did he tell you to do in the farm, to go and do?

MR WANGA: As we all knew here in South Africa what kind of life the Black people were living here in South Africa, we didn't have weapons to fight against whites, our aim was to wage Black people's struggle.

ADV MOTATA: If I may Mr Mbandazayo, but I thought your legal representative said what did Jabu Mdunge tell you to do and you are answering that we all know in South Africa Blacks didn't have arms but you are not answering what your legal representative wants from you?

MR WANGA: The instructions he gave us was to take weapons from the Whites because the White people were the military zone. It is where we can get weapons by going to the Whites and taking the weapons from them. We would be able to defend or protect ourselves in the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are telling the Committee is that the instruction was that "go to the farm and come back with arms" - those were the instructions from Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Also the money, if we could find money we used to take it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, in your application form you were asked who gave you orders for this particular offence, you said orders from the Azanian People's Liberation Army?

CHAIRPERSON: On which page are you referring to Mr Mbandazayo because we have a series of Mr Wanga's applications before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Chairperson, I was looking at Dingane's one, it was not Mr Wanga's. It seems as if it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think if I may assist on page 47 he does refer to instructions having been given by Comrade Jabu Mdunge of Tembisa though I would want to know why he has not made such reference in respect of the two previous applications he had made?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, in fact it's what - if he can answer your question I would allow him to answer the Chairperson's question because that's what I was driving at, I was looking for this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, you are aware that you have made three applications? Do you have copies thereof in front of you? Now in the application which you made, the first application which is dated the 29th May 1996, you did not indicate that you committed this offence as a result of an order which emanated from Comrade Jabu Mdunge nor did you state that in your second application which is on page 36. You however when you applied for the third time which application appears on page 43, only then indicated that the order came from Comrade Mdunge. We would want to know why you omitted to say that in your two other applications?

Are you now in a position to respond? You'd better respond through your mike so that your response can be repeated by our translator so that we can also get the benefit of your response?

MR WANGA: I am surprised to see this here now, I thought that I had written it here as it is in page 36. I'm not aware that I didn't feel or write in here.

CHAIRPERSON: Who completed the application, your first application? Whose handwriting is that, the one which is on page 33? Just check the handwriting.

MR WANGA: This is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you be surprised that you did not include information when you yourself completed the application?

MR WANGA: We would get the application forms from the prison warders so I didn't realise that there are things that I didn't write in here. That is why I explained it in page 36. I didn't know that in the other forms there's something that I didn't clarify or write.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have to complete three different applications, was it because of the fact that you became aware that you omitted certain information?

MR WANGA: No I didn't notice that I made such a mistake, that I didn't complete the whole form, I was not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you aware that you in fact completed the whole form, you wrote "N/A" what did you mean when you said "N/A". On page 35 you were specifically asked whether the acts in respect of which amnesty is being sought was committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement and your response is "N/A" - not applicable. You responded to a question and your response indicated that it was not applicable. What do you mean when you say you did not know what you were doing?

MR WANGA: I cannot explain it in any other way except the way that I've already explained. I didn't realise that I didn't fully complete the application form.

CHAIRPERSON: And neither did you fully realise that you had not done so on the 13th December 1996 when you completed your second application?

MR WANGA: There were applications that we were assisted by the police in prison and there were applications that we filled after we have consulted with our leaders so I'm not sure about all this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Now Mr Wanga, just on that point of going to this farm, Mr Claassens farm, who was the commander of your unit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, would you please just concentrate on the questions being posed by your legal representative without seeking assistance from Mr Dingane?

MR WANGA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was the commander of your unit when you went to Mr Claassen's farm?

MR WANGA: It was Aaron Dingane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many were you?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Aaron, Memani, Mashula and Andries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now were you always together in that unit?

MR WANGA: Yes, we were always together as a unit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they also members of the PAC?

MR WANGA: We're not able to tell them exactly what to do but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Wanga, listen to the question. Were the other people who were in the same unit as yourself also members of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes they were members of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. And also that they were also members of your unit?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And they were also aware of the activities of the unit?

MR WANGA: Yes, they were aware.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now when Jabu Mdunge gave you an order to go to this farm, what did he say that - did he say that you were doing this as members of the PAC or you were doing it as supporters of PAC or members of APLA?

MR WANGA: All such operations we were doing under APLA.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, I'll take it then that if you were doing it as members of APLA your group was composed of a unit and it's commander, as you indicated, was Aaron Dingane, what were the positions of the other members of the unit, within the unit itself?

MR WANGA: As I've already said he was the unit commander. There was a logistic officer and there were additional forces. The people were guiding us in the job and the people who were securing those who were doing the job because we wouldn't go there and do the same job, we wouldn't all take weapons. There were people who were supposed to secure us to look out for the enemy.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga ...[intervention]

ADV MOTATA: May I Mr Mbandazayo just come in here?

Mr Wanga, just assist us, we know for instance that there is Aaron Dingane who was the commander of your unit, your leader of your unit. Tell us in respective of Mashula, Memani, what positions they had or were they just foot soldiers. Don't tell use about vague things that there would be people who'd do x,y,z. We want to know about members of your unit.

MR WANGA: Mashula was a soldier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, who was the - let me lead you then tell me, who was the political commissar of the unit?

MR WANGA: When we were going to the operation?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, you've already told the Committee you were always together as a unit, you gave the Committee the names of the unit, now I'm asking then who was the political commissar of that unit? You've already told the Committee that there was a commander Aaron Dingane, now who was the political commissar?

MR WANGA: Memani was assisting Aaron.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, just answer a simple question. Who was the political commissar in your unit? We don't want to know who was assisting Mr Dingane. At least your counsel has not put that question to you.

MR WANGA: It was Memani, a political commissar.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Chairperson. Who was the logistics officer of your unit?

MR WANGA: It was Mashula.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, at the time of this incident I take it that since you were with this unit you were aware of what was happening politically at the time and you are aware of the leaders of the PAC at the time you were involved in this. Will you be able to throw some light that since you were a unit which belonged to APLA did you know who was a commander of APLA at the time?

MR WANGA: It was Sabelo Palma and the commissar of APLA was Romero Daniels.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, who was the Director of Operations then?

MR WANGA: It was Letslape Mphalele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And do you know who was the President of the PAC?

MR WANGA: At the time it was Clarence Makwetu and his deputy was Dugang Musaneki.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, start putting words in your mouth, we are talking about the dates when this incident happened which was 1988. Are you sure about what you are telling the Committee?

MR WANGA: Yes I am sure.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Mbandazo? If I may? When was your unit established?

MR WANGA: Late in 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: And when it was established in late 1987, did it comprise the same members that you have just articulated in your evidence?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, let's go now to the farm. What happened when you arrived at the farm, how did you go to the farm, what mode of transport did you use? How were you armed?

MR WANGA: There was a car that we used, a Corolla, a white Corolla. We arrived there on a Saturday, Saturday morning and we knew that we were going to do an operation in the afternoon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, how were you armed when you went there? How was yourself armed, Aaron, all the members of the unit, what weapons did you have with you, let me put it that way?

MR WANGA: We were armed with a shotgun, also had a pistol, Aaron was carrying a gun, he was leading us as a commander. We went in there, the three of us went in and then the others followed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, tell the Committee what happened?

MR WANGA: When we got there Mr John was inside the shop together with a friend, I don't know whether it was a person who was assisting him but when we used to go to that place, that person would be there with Mr John, but before we went inside to do the job or the operation a car, a Mazda, went out of that place. The driver was a woman, we thought that it was his wife. We then went inside the shop. We took him out of the shop and we took him inside the house. We wanted weapons and we took the weapons and also took some money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee how did you take the weapons, did you point firearms, did you assault the people at the farm? What actually took place? All of us we were not there, you were the people who were there, we want to know - everybody wants the picture of what actually took place there.

MR WANGA: Mr Claassens was pointed with a gun together with his friend. His friend tried - he gave us some trouble. We found out that he was trained in karate. We then took him to the other side of the store and we put bags and some heavy stuff in that storeroom. We were then busy with Mr Claassens. We left two of us inside the shop. We took the owner of the house, he was pleading with us not to kill him. We told him that we were not going to kill him but if he was operating with what we were looking for things would be easy for him but if he was giving us problems we were going to take a decision in that place and at that time. Mr Claassens was willing to take us inside the house. We went inside the house and he told us about the weapons that he had, we found a 9 mm. He then led us to other rooms and then we found money. We went back to the shop after we were finished the job inside the house. The shop was in the same premises but not - it was next to the house. After that we had a problem with transport as I've already indicated that we saw a car going out of that house when we were going in because the car took us there, just dropped us there and then it left.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then how did you leave the place and what did you manage to get in the place, how many firearms, how much money did you get and what else did you get?

MR WANGA: We took a box with money and it was locked at the time and we didn't have a key for that box. We also found a shotgun. We searched in that house thoroughly but we couldn't find any other weapons. He then opened a safe and we found out that he did not have any other weapons. We then decided to take the box of money and the shotgun with us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you leave the place, what mode of transport did you use?

MR WANGA: We didn't use a car to leave that place. We took a road that led us to a place where we can get a public transport because we couldn't use the same car that took us there, that was our way of operating.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you reach your destination?

MR WANGA: Which destination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the whole incident where were you going to go to?

MR WANGA: We went to Kirkwood and then from the township we'd use a public transport to come back to Port Elizabeth in Vierplaas where we would give a report to the unit commander and hand over what we found there. We would give all those to Jabu, our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what happened there after the incident. Did you manage to go to Jabu Mdunge and hand over everything?

MR WANGA: Yes it is obvious because everything that we would do, we would go back to him and report even if we found weapons we would take them back to Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, are you saying that whenever you conducted an operation of this nature you would go back to Mr Mdunge to hand over whatever you would have taken in the process of your operation? Is that that should mean when you say it's obvious?

MR WANGA: Yes it is obvious because what we were doing we were doing according to his instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I take it that when you arrived at his place you counted the money. How much was it?

MR WANGA: I don't remember the exact amount but I think it was between R7000 or R12000 but I don't remember clearly because this happened a long time ago.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did Jabu Mdunge give you any share in the amount?

MR WANGA: No, we knew that we were not the only ones who were doing such operations. We knew that in other places there are cadres who needed support and they wanted weapons and money and some of those cadres would sleep in places of operations so they would need money, food, but we didn't get anything for our own needs.

ADV MOTATA: Let's interrupt you. The question is simple and short. Did Mr Mdunge give you something out of the amount between R7000 and R12000, did he give you something out of that? That's what the question wants.

MR WANGA: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Now Mr Wanga, I'm looking at your file and that before this incident it seems that you were not a stranger with being in conflict with the law and you have been out - in and out of prison, is that correct?

MR WANGA: I was still at school at that time when I was arrested concerning dagga, I was not in and out of prison. That was the first time that I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I hate doing this but for the sake of completing what you've already obtained from your client. Mr Wanga you say that the amount of between R7000 to R12000 was given to Mr Mdunge. Did you give that money to Mr Mdunge as a unit that had conducted that operation? Were you all there when you presented the money to Mr Mdunge after the operation?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that Mr Mdunge did not give you anything from the proceeds, nothing was given to your unit? That's correct?

MR WANGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you know what happened to the money? Do you know how Mr Mdunge used the money?

MR WANGA: No we don't know how he used the money but as I've already said we knew that there were other units in other places that needed support, that needed food, so we were not aware or we didn't know whether he did or not but we knew there were people who were needing support.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Thank you. I just wanted to get clarity on that issue Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'm just finishing. How long were you arrested after this incident?

MR WANGA: This happened in 1988 on the 28th November. I think on the 9th January we were then arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is January 1989?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And were you granted bail?

MR WANGA: No I was not granted bail.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, can you then tell the Committee the reason why should they grant you amnesty for this offence?

MR WANGA: It is because everything we did we did it because of the political situation here in South Africa under the oppression of the White people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mbandazayo.

Ms Patel, I see that it's almost time for us to break for lunch. Shall we take about forty minutes lunch and probably come back at - is that okay if we take thirty minutes lunch, maybe we should make enquiries from the people who are doing a very difficult job of being our translators, that will be in order for us to take thirty minutes?

INTERPRETER: Yes it's okay.

MS PATEL: Thank you for your indulgence. Well shall we take a thirty minutes adjournment for lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, is Mr Wanga still proceeding with his testimony?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thanks Chairperson, we have concluded our evidence in chief on the incident of Kirkwood.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga you are still under oath, may I remind you? Ms Patel, do you have any questions to pose to Mr Wanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Wanga, was Mr Dingane the commander of your unit from it's inception in 1987?

B S WANGA: (s.u.o.)

MS PATEL: And was he involved in all your operations that you undertook during the time from '87 to '88/'89?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay and would all those operations have been authorised by Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Would Mr Mdunge personally have authorised those operations in your presence?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Well I find that rather curious because Mr Dingane at nowhere in his application does he mention that he was authorised by Mr Mdunge. Can you offer an explanation for this?

MR WANGA: All I know that we got the authority from Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Okay and you've also stated that Mr Dingane was present when you went and reported to Mr Mdunge after the completion of this operation and where the money was handed over to Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Yes he was present.

MS PATEL: Besides you not receiving any money from that operation, did anybody else in your unit receive money from that operation?

MR WANGA: I do not know as to whether there was someone who got money out of that operation.

MS PATEL: But you operated together as the unit, how would you not know? You said that you were all together when you reported to Mr Mdunge and that the money was handed to him?

MR WANGA: I don't know if anybody was given money but all I know is that we would hand over whatever we had, money or something else, we would hand it over to Mr Mdunge, then there's nothing else I can say.

MS PATEL: Ms Patel I thought the applicant was quite explicit in his evidence in chief when I questioned him on this that none of them received anything from Mr Mdunge as a result of the operation conducted at Kirkwood?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Then if I can refer you to page 5 of the bundle, Mr Dingane's application, at 10 (d). He explains that:

Now why does Mr Dingane say that the money was used to fund the unit and you say that the money was handed over to Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: All I knew was that the money was to be handed over to Jabu Mdunge, I don't know what he did with the money afterwards.

MS PATEL: Are you saying there's a possibility that it would have been handed over to Mr Dingane the commander of your unit without your knowing?

MR WANGA: I don't have knowledge of anyone who was given the money. All I know is that whenever we have - after completing each and every operation we would hand over the money to Jabu Mdune.

MS PATEL: Okay. You were convicted for various other offences, not so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: In fact, according to the information at our disposal, the very day before this incident had - this operation was taken out, you were convicted for also housebreaking, theft matter also at a farm in the Kirkwood area in which a television and clothing was stolen, is that correct? You were sentenced to five years for that matter.

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Was this also carried out with Mr Dingane's approval?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and how many of you were involved in that matter?

MR WANGA: Three of us.

MS PATEL: And who were these three persons?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Dingane and Vuyisile Andries.

MS PATEL: Okay and what did you do with the T.V. and clothing?

MR WANGA: Everything of value would be handed over to the unit commander, Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Okay, but you haven't applied for amnesty for this incident?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Well why not? The question is very simple, sir. Why not? Why haven't you applied for amnesty for this incident?

MR WANGA: I think there was a mistake, maybe it's among the forms that were not mentioned. I think I did mention it in the other forms, maybe it only appears in the other forms that were not mentioned here.

MS PATEL: No, I can assure you that this incident is not mentioned in your application forms. In fact you didn't even mention it in your evidence in chief? Can you explain or do you not have a response?

MR WANGA: I am applying for amnesty including all these incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is have you applied, have you completed an application form for those acts and if so, when because we have three applications before us and none of those applications has any bearing on the other acts that you have been questioned about.

MR WANGA: I'm not in a position to say why but all the applications that I have forwarded, all those applications are supposed to be here. It is a surprise to me to find out that there are incidents that are said not to be appearing in my application.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, are you suggesting that you submitted more than three application forms for amnesty other than the three we have here, there could be more applications we're having?

MR WANGA: No that is not what I'm trying to say.

ADV MOTATA: Then the question is why didn't you apply for amnesty for this incident you have just told us about the day before the Kirkwood farm because it also occurred in Kirkwood, why did you not apply for amnesty, I think that's what Ms Patel is looking for. Am I right Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: That is correct.

MR WANGA: I think that is my mistake if I did not mention that, if I did not ask for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you assisted in completing any of the applications that you submitted to the TRC, were you assisted by anyone at any stage in completing those apart from the one that you already testified that you completed on your own?

MR WANGA: There's nothing else, there was no one helping.

CHAIRPERSON: Who typed the application that appears on page 36?

MR WANGA: These are the applications that are submitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the application I'm referring to on page 36 and is that your signature that appears on page 41?

MR WANGA: Yes that is my signature.

MS PATEL: Who completed that application for you, it's obviously typed, did you type it yourself?

MR WANGA: We did not have any typing facility. Maybe it was typed somewhere else.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you, how did you sign it, don't you know who assisted you, who came in with a typed application form which was signed? You don't recall?

MR WANGA: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you in completing the application that appears on page 43?

MR WANGA: Our leaders assisted me.

CHAIRPERSON: Your leaders where, which leaders are you referring to?

MR WANGA: It was Mr Ntonga. Among the first people who came to visit us was Mr Ntonga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he a member of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you explained to him the acts in respect of which amnesty was being sought?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What standard have you passed Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: I went up to Standard 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Standard 9. You were able to see that in respect of your last application the acts that were identified were robbery, possession of firearms and escape and the dates that were given in respect of those acts were the 28th November 1988 and the 15th October 1989 respectively and the places identified in your application was Kirkwood near Port Elizabeth? You saw that?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't question why they had omitted to include the other acts in respect of which you also wanted amnesty for?

MR WANGA: I did not notice.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee, just for the record just on this aspect of Mr Ntonga, I want to clarify the one Mr Ntonga assisted him on is the one which is typed, I happened ascertaining from East London, Tanzani and he was assisted to commissioned him by Mr Holo who is also an attorney so that's the one he was assisted in, it's the one which has died. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, we are aware of that, thank you very much. Ms Patel you may proceed with your cross-examination.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Wanga, are there any other incidents that you feel have been omitted from your application?

MR WANGA: No.

MS PATEL: No, alright. Well let me take you to your conviction for the incident that occurred in Kirkwood as well on the 12th December in 1989. It's again a robbery on a farm in which you were convicted for housebreaking with the intention to rob and robbery plus possession of a firearm plus rape?

MR WANGA: There was nothing like that, I know about housebreaking but there was no rape, we are not the type of people who would be involved in such acts.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just interpose again so that your rights may be protected as an applicant under our Act for Amnesty? It was never your intention to seek amnesty for housebreaking, for the incident that Ms Patel has referred to, this is more an incident which you say you thought was included in your amnesty application but alas, it has not been included and you are not aware of that. This is not one of those incidents? I'm simply making enquiries in order to try and protect your rights.

MR WANGA: All of the acts that I've been involved in I'm applying amnesty for all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also ...[indistinct] under the belief that you had applied for amnesty in respect of the rape incident that Ms Patel is referring to?

MR WANGA: There was no rape incident though that is mentioned by the investigators in the court but I couldn't even respond to those allegations because I know very well that we were not involved in such things, I couldn't respond to that in court.

CHAIRPERSON: You've not been convicted for rape?

MR WANGA: That was mentioned and I told them that was not part of my job, that was not part of our operations so I couldn't respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Please just listen to my simple question. Have you been convicted for rape, yes or no?

MR WANGA: We only heard that in court. We did not do anything of that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, are you serving any sentence for rape because if you are and you have not applied for amnesty then you are not obliged to respond to Ms Patel's question. Have you been convicted for rape? If you have, you do not have to respond to Ms Patel's question because you have not applied for amnesty. Ms Patel, I think you may proceed to another aspect of your cross-examination.

MS PATEL: If I may can I just - has the applicant said that he is not applying for any other offence related to the incident that I have raised or is it just the aspect of rape?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is quite clear that the applicant does not wish to respond to whether he has been convicted or not for rape and from what he has previously said it is quite clear that rape is not one of the incidents, that he is mistaken, he thought he had applied for.

MS PATEL: Do you deny then that you were convicted with housebreaking with intent to rob and robbery for an incident also at Kirkwood on the 5th December 1989. Do you deny that?

MR WANGA: No I do not deny that.

MS PATEL: Is it an incident for which you omitted to apply for amnesty or not?

MR WANGA: Yes, this is the incident that does not feature in my application.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say doesn't feature in your application, was it your intention to apply for amnesty in respect of that incident?

MR WANGA: All the things that I've done I have applied for amnesty for all the things that I've done.

CHAIRPERSON: We would appreciate Mr Wanga if you could keep your responses short and to the point, we really do not have the time unfortunately as a Committee, we have a very short lifespan so if you are asked a question please try and keep your responses to what you've been asked for. Is this an incident which you wanted to apply for amnesty and you omitted mistakenly to do so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Is this also an incident that Mr Dingane had authorised?

MR WANGA: He was already in prison at the time and I escaped.

MS PATEL: So who authorised this incident?

MR WANGA: It was Jabu who was present at the time, Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: And what was his instructions to you?

MR WANGA: Our job was to go and get arms and money to all the places he used to send us.

MS PATEL: So did he choose this specific target, Mr Mdunge, did he choose this specific target?

MR WANGA: We've been there before and Vuyisile Andries was among the people that I used to work with us, he was residing at Kirkwood. We wouldn't go to a place that we didn't know.

MS PATEL: So who was all involved in this operation with you that took place in December of '89?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Andries, Nimrod.

MS PATEL: And who else?

MR WANGA: Only three of us.

MS PATEL: And who was all convicted for it, were you the only person convicted for this offence?

MR WANGA: I was the only one who was convicted, who was caught.

MS PATEL: And do you deny that anybody was raped during that time?

MR WANGA: There was no rape incident there in our job. We only heard about that in court, they said that happened in that house. I told them in court that I won't respond because that did not take place but they insisted that someone was raped.

ADV MOTATA: If I may just interpose here? Mr Wanga are you aware that the harshest sentence for that incident was the rape one because the others you merely got five years, nine months and ten years for rape and you didn't want to respond to that in court? Would I be right?

MR WANGA: I was already serving a sentence, I couldn't consider that sentence because I couldn't respond to that, I told them that I'm not going to respond to such allegations because I did not do that, they can do whatever they like, I was just not prepared to respond to those allegations and I am sure that nothing like that took place in that scene.

ADV MOTATA: Say Mr Wanga we were to decide - let's take it hypothetically that we would decide to give you amnesty. In your own words you say we must ignore the rape one because you are convicted for that one, that we mustn't touch it because it never happened and you were not interested even if it was mentioned in court?

MR WANGA: That is what I told them in court that during our operation that did not happen but just because they wanted to oppress us or suppress us because the investigator who was responsible for that told me that if I do not bring the other people or release the other people's names who were there with me he was going to make sure that I will not escape conviction, he was going to try by all means to incriminate me.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.

MS PATEL: And to whom did you hand the stuff that you had stolen from that incident?

MR WANGA: Everything we had we would hand it over to the overall commander, Jabu Mdunge. I've been stressing out on that point.

MS PATEL: And given that Mr Dingane was in prison at the time, who was your immediate commander at that stage?

MR WANGA: It was Nimrod who was with me, the one who was never arrested for the incident.

MS PATEL: Was Nimrod a part of your unit from the time that it was established?

MR WANGA: Nimrod was still new in the unit.

MS PATEL: And yet he was made the commander even though he was new in the unit after Mr Dingane was imprisoned?

MR WANGA: We knew that he some experience, he was used to be involved in some operations. Even in Queenstown he's been there but we did not know anything about him but the only person who knew about his presence was Jabu Mdunge, he had more knowledge, he had experience about such operations.

MS PATEL: Were you ever trained Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: Yes but not that much, not much, not as extensive.

MS PATEL: Where were you trained and when?

MR WANGA: I can't remember, maybe the year was '86 or '87 but it was early in the year.

MS PATEL: And by whom?

MR WANGA: We used to call him Madad the instructor, his codename was Madad.

MS PATEL: And what was your codename?

MR WANGA: They used to call me Bee.

MS PATEL: How many people were present where you were training?

MR WANGA: A number of people.

MS PATEL: How many people, give me an estimate if you can't remember exactly?

MR WANGA: About twenty of us.

MS PATEL: And where did this training take place?

MR WANGA: We were using Butterworth in the former Transkei.

MS PATEL: Okay, was Mr Dingane with you on this training?

MR WANGA: We only met Mr Dingane in the house that we use as our meeting place in our struggle, meetings concerning our organisation.

MS PATEL: When?

MR WANGA: That was late 1987.

MS PATEL: Are you saying late 1987? But in your evidence in chief you had stated that your unit had started early in 1987 and that Mr Dingane was in fact the commander of your unit from that time? Would you care to explain? Sorry could you repeat the translation please?

INTERPRETER: No response yet.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, was there a response?

MR WANGA: What I said about him in 1987, I said the unit was formed in 1987 and training took place early '86 and '87, I didn't say anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, I think in his evidence in chief he did say the unit came into existence late '87.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you could just grant me moment to double check my notes?

CHAIRPERSON: With pleasure Ms Patel.

ADV MOTATA: The ...[inaudible] in 1987, that's when the unit was started.

MS PATEL: I'll leave it at that thanks.

What type of training did you receive?

MR WANGA: We were trained to handle firearms and how to face a target and ...[indistinct] and how to handle a firearm and how to dismantle a firearm.

MS PATEL: And how long did this training last?

MR WANGA: About three to four months.

MS PATEL: So then you would have received at least a minimum of political training as well, not so, in terms of the aims and the objectives of the organisation policies?

MR WANGA: Yes we would grasp such things sometimes.

MS PATEL: Sorry, who did you say was the president of the organisation during 1988?

MR WANGA: It was Makwetu.

MS PATEL: I put it to you that that is incorrect and that if you had received the political training that you say you did at the very least you would have known that, that that is incorrect?

MR WANGA: ...[inaudible]

MS PATEL: For the record there's no response.

CHAIRPERSON: If you put it ...[intervention]

MR WANGA: It was Makwetu after the death of ...[indistinct] Motopeng.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to say Ms Patel, if you say he's correct - he's incorrect, what then was the correct version and he's just corrected again himself by saying to us Mr Motopeng. In fact it was Mr Motopeng not in 1988, that is what Ms Patel is saying, that it was not Mr Makwetu who was the president of the PAC, it was Mr Motopeng.

MS PATEL: Just a few more final points.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want to traverse on the issue of the Deputy President of the Organisation? He's also referred to Advocate Musaneke, as having been the Deputy President of the organisation then?

MS PATEL: Where did you get that information from regarding the leadership of the PAC at the time because it is incorrect?

MR WANGA: The person who was responsible for our political orientation told us so.

MS PATEL: And who would this person have been?

MR WANGA: The person who was educating us politically was ...[indistinct] Dunga who was our overall commander.

MS PATEL: Surely he wouldn't have given you the incorrect information to something as basic as who was in charge?

MR WANGA: What do you want to say because I'm telling you maybe you know someone else, who was it?

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, are you conscious that in 1988 the Pan Africanist Congress was banned?

MR WANGA: All the organisations were banned.

ADV MOTATA: And Mr Musaneke was Advocate in South Africa, not outside the country, are you conscious of that as well?

MR WANGA: Yes I know that.

ADV MOTATA: That it is a fact known by everybody that he was not even Deputy to Motopeng who was the President of the PAC then, we are conscious of that, isn't that so? That's general knowledge that everybody knows. Actually if you are a Pan Africanist Congress member you would know that basic information?

MR WANGA: I did not say he was Motopeng's deputy but I mentioned Motopeng, I just said Dugang Musaneke was Makwetu's deputy, I did not say he was Motopeng's deputy but I said he was Makwetu's deputy. I said there was first Motopeng and the second one was Makwetu and his deputy was Musaneke.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what you say in your evidence in chief Mr Wanga, please don't waste our time. In your evidence in chief when you were questioned about the leadership of the PAC you were quite firm in your response that Mr Makwetu was in 1988 the President of the PAC and that Advocate Musaneke was his deputy, that was your evidence in chief?

MR WANGA: Maybe I made a mistake about the years but Mr Makwetu's deputy president was Mr Musaneke.

CHAIRPERSON: How long had you known Mr Mdunge before you went into training?

MR WANGA: I had known him for quite a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: And did your knowledge include his political activism?

MR WANGA: No I didn't know him that much, his political activism but I knew that he was in the forefront of the organisation as a leader.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you know him to be in the forefront of the leader and of which organisation?

MR WANGA: I have known him from the PAC and the person who introduced me to him is a person who recruited me to the PAC, that is the late Sipong Kukulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you the training, is it Mr Mdunge still in late - in 1986?

MR WANGA: I said the person who trained us was Mdake, our instructor, the person who was giving us training.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was Mr Mdunge then?

MR WANGA: Mr Mdunge, when we came here we got instructions as to where we were going to meet Mr Mdunge and we did meet him. There were certain places where we would meet him and he wasn't residing there but we would know when to meet him and where. We did not know exactly where he was residing at the time but we knew we would get instructions as to where and when to meet him.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did he tell you that Mr Makwetu and Advocate Musaneke were both president and deputy of the PAC in 1988, when did he ever tell you that?

MR WANGA: During the political educational programmes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were those programmes, during your training? This is what I'm trying to ascertain. Was that during your training or was it when you were in your unit?

MR WANGA: We would do things together with the unit and Jabu Mdunge would be present. We were not at the training base when we were with Jabu Mdunge.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were told about the leadership, the top leadership of the PAC by Mr Mdunge late in 1987 because that's when your unit came into being?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Come again?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. You've mentioned the names of three other people besides Mr Dingane who were members of your unit. You've mentioned Memani, you've mentioned Mr Dingane, you've mentioned Dumele, Kwashula and you mentioned Vuyisile Andries, is that correct?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Is there nobody else besides that? I'm speaking specifically now of the incident that occurred on the 27th November 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that known as the Kirkwood incident?

MS PATEL: Ja, where the victim is Mr Claassen.

MR WANGA: There were two other members that I forgot to mention their names. That is Lulamele.

MS PATEL: And who else?

MR WANGA: And Mkolisi.

MS PATEL: Okay and did you always know them by these names?

MR WANGA: Yes we were using those names.

MS PATEL: Well that's unusual. Did you not use codenames in your unit? It's a standard practice with PAC units where codenames were used?

MR WANGA: Yes we were using codenames but those were the names.

MS PATEL: Did they say - did you always refer to each other by their first names, by each others first names and not the codenames?

MR WANGA: We were using codenames during our training and during the operations.

MS PATEL: No, I'm speaking specifically when you were in your unit?

MR WANGA: We were using codenames.

MS PATEL: Fine, give me the codenames please?

MR WANGA: Lulamele's codename was Triple X, Mkolisi was K, that's all.

MS PATEL: And the rest?

MR WANGA: Salisele was Triple B.

MS PATEL: And the rest?

MR WANGA: Dubele was Jonga, Aaron was Kapa.

MS PATEL: And who else? And Vuyisile?

MR WANGA: Vuyisile was Hamba.

MS PATEL: And your codename?

MR WANGA: My codename was Mr B.

MS PATEL: Are you sure that only money was taken, money and a firearm was taken from Mr Claassen, nothing else?

MR WANGA: We went there for money and firearms, there's nothing else that we took from that place.

MS PATEL: Well there was a radio that was also taken.

MR WANGA: We did not say that, I can't even remember seeing a radio there because we weren't there all of us and we had no radio.

MS PATEL: Well I put it to you that a radio was also taken during that incident? If I can refer for the purposes of the record it's 1986?

MR WANGA: I did not say that.

MS PATEL: You were saying that you took public transport after this incident. How far away is the nearest public transport from Mr Claassen's farm?

MR WANGA: It's quite a distance but I cannot estimate but it's quite far because we lived there and we went to Vuyisile Andries in the township, that is where we got public transport, it was a distance from the farm, a long distance.

MS PATEL: And can you recall what kind of weapon you'd taken from the farm, from Mr Claassens?

MR WANGA: We got a shotgun.

MS PATEL: A shotgun?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: And who carried the shotgun?

MR WANGA: It was in Memani's position.

MS PATEL: And how big is the shotgun?

MR WANGA: I think it was 9 or something.

MS PATEL: 9 or centimetres.

MR WANGA: A 9 mm pistol.

MS PATEL: Okay so it wasn't a shotgun it was a pistol, which is it?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the difference? Do you know the difference between a 9 mm pistol and a shotgun?

MR WANGA: It was a 9 mm pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have said earlier on you found a shotgun and Ms Patel wanted to know what kind of a shotgun, then you said it was a 9 mm pistol, that's why I wanted to find out if your knew the difference between a shotgun and a pistol.

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So what kind of a shotgun did you find?

MR WANGA: It was black in colour.

MS PATEL: Is that all you're able to say about the weapon that you found, that it was black in colour?

MR WANGA: It was a black shotgun.

MS PATEL: I put it to you Mr Wanga that if you had received the kind of training that you say you did you would at the very least have been able to explain the distinction between the different types of weapons and you wouldn't have made the mistake between a shotgun and a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to respond to that Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: I don't know how to put this now because I've told you that it was a 9 mm pistol. I don't what is it that you want me to clarify or maybe you want me to turn the statement around?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga I must warn you again, I want you to confine your responses to questions posed to you. We are trying to gather information that will enable us to decide your application, I think it is in your best interest to try and provide that information. Ms Patel is doing her duty to put questions to you. If you are unable to respond to the question please give an indication to you that you are unable to respond further or to say anything to the contrary. We don't want you to be sarcastic. This is a very important and solemn process, we do not provide space for sarcasm. Proceed Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Just to take you back to the incident itself at Mr Claassen's farm, was Mr Dingane the only person who was armed before you went there?

MR WANGA: Even Mr Memani was armed.

MS PATEL: Were you one of the people who took Mr Claassen into the house?

MR WANGA: We were left with his friend who was in the shop and the others went inside the house with Mr Claassen.

MS PATEL: So you don't have any knowledge of what took place in the house?

MR WANGA: We knew when they went out of the house they told us when after they've been to the house.

MS PATEL: Okay and Mr Oelofse, that's the person who was assisting Mr Claassen or who happened to be in the shop at the time, what exactly was done to him?

MR WANGA: Mr Oelofse tried to resist but we overpowered him using the spade that we found inside the shop.

MS PATEL: A spade, you never mentioned a spade beforehand, can you please explain, elaborate on that?

MR WANGA: What is it that you want me to mention about the spade?

MS PATEL: What did you do with it?

MR WANGA: That is the weapon that we used to overpower Mr Oelofse in the shop because he was resisting, he gave us problems.

MS PATEL: How many of you were with Mr Oelofse at that time?

MR WANGA: Three or four of us but I cannot remember because we're very busy.

MS PATEL: Okay, according to the record of the trial it says that there were five of you were present with him at that time but you denied that.

MR WANGA: I cannot say exactly because there were children that we found in the shop and we put them together with Mr Oelofse. The children went there to buy, maybe one of them was counted as the fifth one.

MS PATEL: Now which children are these?

MR WANGA: I do not know them but those were people that we found in the shop as we were busy with our operation. They were inside, they were already inside the shop when they came in.

MS PATEL: Do you know how many children there were?

MR WANGA: Two of them.

MS PATEL: And they stayed in the shop whilst you were busy robbing Mr Claassen?

MR WANGA: We combined with Mr Oelofse and we locked them in the same place where Mr Oelofse was locked in.

MS PATEL: Did you cover them with bags of meal as well?

MR WANGA: No we did not cover them we just tied them lightly, we just tied their hands lightly and we left them.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel where is this leading us?

MS PATEL: It goes to the question of this witness's credibility Honourable Chairperson, to the extent that he adds on to simple questions that he knows he is not in a position to respond to because he knows that he is lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it leading us to absence of full disclosure?

MS PATEL: Absolutely Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I wish you could be a little faster at reaching that destination.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

You see Mr Wanga there is no mention at the trial of any other children being found with Mr Oelofse and if they were tied up or left in the room with Mr Oelofse they would have been found and you would certainly have been charged for that. I put it to you that you are lying Mr Wanga.

MR WANGA: After I had left them in the shop we don't know what happened, it might have been that the people who came in there did not find any children but we don't know after we left the place what actually happened but we left them in that condition therefore I cannot say that happened or that happened, I cannot say anything that took place after we had left the place.

MS PATEL: Not even Mr Claassen mentioned that there were other children present.

MR WANGA: I cannot respond to that whether he did mention or not.

MS PATEL: You were at the trial, you heard what Mr Claassen had said, what evidence was led?

MR WANGA: Are you talking about the incident that took place in Mr Claassen's house? I heard what she said.

MS PATEL: Sorry, if you would bear with me for a moment Honourable Chairperson? Just one final thing. You stated that your motivation was to protect the community within which you lived, is that correct?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: How did what you did achieve that objective?

MR WANGA: Today we are in the new South Africa, it is that was brought about by the contribution of the liberation struggle.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, the weaponry which you got from these farms did you use it in any fighting that brought about the present democracy, did you fight any white people, security police for instance, police with that weaponry?

MR WANGA: We would get them from the white people and we would use them against them.

ADV MOTATA: Just name one operation other than the dispossession where you used these arms against the enemy?

MR WANGA: We would take the arms and would hand them over to Jabu Mdunge and then Jabu Mdunge knew where he was taking the arms to. We would have our own arms at our respective places where we would work. After we had handed over the weapons to Mr Mdunge, we wouldn't be part of that afterwards. He is the one who knew where he was taking the arms to.

ADV MOTATA: What was the purpose of training you early 1987? What were you trained as? APLA members or just trained to handle firearms, you spoke of tactics, you spoke of dismantling firearms, what was the training aimed at, what were you going to become thereafter after you had been trained for those four months?

MR WANGA: We knew that the whites were declaring war, we knew that whites declared war against black people. Every time we were ready we were training, we were preparing ourselves to anything that would happen because most of the whites were on missions killing people. We were getting training so we can do the same thing as they were doing.

ADV MOTATA: That is PAC policy in other words that we train everybody to get ready but in the process you were to disarm farmers of their weaponry. Are we following you to say that?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And that not being trained to be part of the cadres of the PAC namely the liberation army APLA, for instance you were not trained for that?

MR WANGA: We were trained for that purpose because we knew that some of us would be deployed outside but unfortunately that did not happen but we knew we were going because we told that that was not the only training, we would get another training, we would acquire other training outside the country.

MR WANGA: Because I want you to assist us, Mr Wanga, I've listened to you for half a day and all I could get from you was that you would rob these farmers, their weaponry and all that weaponry gave to Mdunge, even the money. You retained nothing, that's what I've been hearing the whole day, am I wrong or I did not listen to you attentively?

MR WANGA: As I'm saying, we were not getting anything, we were not expecting any compensation. We knew that we were contradicting in a way and pushing forward the black liberation. We were not expecting compensation.

ADV MOTATA: And you didn't ask Mdunge where you're taking these arms to, because he's in your party, you never asked. You just give it to him, even the money, you never asked because it would appear strange, let's be honest to you, that you never kept these arms. Let's ask you a simple question then. Who gave you the arms which Memani and Dingane had when you went to that farmer? Where did you get those guns from?

MR WANGA: We got those arms from Jabu Mdunge. He told us that we only need firearms because the same operations were being done in the whole South Africa. We knew that we were not the only cadres, APLA cadres and we didn't want to know more than what he was telling us because we knew that there were other cadres who were also in the same mission somewhere else and we wouldn't want to go beyond that we take whatever he was telling us.

ADV MOTATA: What was your unit called?

MR WANGA: Our unit was called Assault Unit.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, you must proceed, I'm sorry about that.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one question Chairperson that emanates from the answer given to my last enquiry. I would give you a background to this, Mr Wanga, in all fairness. We have listened to a number of PAC applications and people who were taking from other people, they used to call them repossession unit, do you follow that? They would have names but they would basically be repossessing and people who were in assault units would fight the struggle. Now I want to understand you, that because you were an assault unit how did you get entangled or were there specific orders that you must repossess in the process?

MR WANGA: It is exactly as I'm saying, it's because we were not doing anything for ourselves, we would get instructions from the people who was our leader. Now I see in the three applications that you say you were charged for armed robbery, possession of illegal ammunition and firearms, escape and what you say what sentence you got for that you said 24 years six months. Is that referring to the Johan Claassen, Kirkwood story, or does that include several other offences or which you committed?

MR WANGA: All of the offences that I was involved in, the escape, the sentence was six - eight months, six months, I cannot remember but all those years combined they make that number of years.

ADV MOTATA: Robbery, let's start, Kirkwood, what did you get, we are talking now of the ...[indistinct]

MR WANGA: The sentence was seven years.

ADV MOTATA: Escape nine months?

MR WANGA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: And what was ammunition, possession of illegal arms and ammunition, what did you get?

MR WANGA: I think it was five years.

ADV MOTATA: So we are roughly in the region of fifteen, are you saying the others as well?

MR WANGA: And the one that I refused to respond to in court, the rape case, I was not even interested in the length of the sentence but I heard that when I was in prison, that my sentence was twenty four years and six months and I didn't know what was the sentence of this alleged rape because I even had a quarrel with the police who was in charge of that case.

ADV MOTATA: That you have just said to me the Claassens story for that incident you got nine years and you suddenly say you thought you were told you were doing twenty four years, that cannot be true. Then you said to me when I was asking you and we want please, honesty, we want to understand these things. We're not asking you anything for the fun of asking you anything otherwise I would keep quiet and we want you to be absolutely honest with us because your first answer you said the totality of the sentence in other words was twenty four years six months and you say the other one which you never agreed to which is the rape one, but you fought with the police when they told you eventually it's twenty four years six months. It cannot be? And I took you slowly patiently through what happened because once we leave the Claassens we say now you've got approximately 15 years. Was I not correct? Please we implore you because this is a serious process we don't ask questions like the chairperson has said for the fun of it, otherwise we'd do better matters if we had here for fun and be, you to assist us, we don't know anything. Like your counsel said earlier, none of us here knew what happened there and this we listened attentively. Let's take it then, I would tell you that for the rape was ten years and I asked you earlier, if we were to give you amnesty, we should forget the rape and not give you amnesty for rape, would that still be the position as you see it there right now?

MR WANGA: ....[inaudible]

ADV MOTATA: No, no, you said you are applying for amnesty for other things you haven't mentioned in your applications, do you recall saying that?

MR WANGA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Then I'm asking you and I asked you before that look and these are the words I used, let's take your hypothetical situation and say we grant you amnesty, should we grant you amnesty for rape as well? Those were my words and I asked you for the last time because you say you know nothing of rape and you refused to participate when rape was spoken of in court. Now I say you are giving me the last opportunity. Should we in considering your application forget about the rape and say you are not applying for amnesty for rape?

MR WANGA: That is bad because I cannot except that, because I did not accept that even in court though I was forced and I was sentenced for that. I cannot ask or apply for amnesty for such a matter because it's not part of the things that we were taught to do and it's not even something that I did.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Wanga.

ADV BOSMAN: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

Mr Wanga, would it be correct to say that these operations were planned beforehand by the unit?

ADV MOTATA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you know that you would get firearms and money at these various places? Who provided the information?

MR WANGA: I did clarify this, one of the members Vuyisile Andries who was a resident there and we would meet there and he would visit us and before going for an operation we would contact him and he would identify a target and describe them to us and we would go there and look for ourselves.

ADV BOSMAN: So he did the reconnaissance, Andries, did the reconnaissance for you?

MR WANGA: Yes, exactly.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you employed at this time when you conducted the operations, were you employed elsewhere? Did you do any work?

MR WANGA: No I was unemployed.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you subsist, where did you get money from for your day to day subsistence?

MR WANGA: I used to work but during these operations I was no longer working.

ADV BOSMAN: No but the question is if you were not working during the operations and all the money was handed to Jabu, how did you exist?

MR WANGA: There are many means of survival in the township, you even sit in front of the wall and sell some apples, you don't have to go and work or do something bad.

ADV BOSMAN: No, what I'm getting at is why if you did not work did Jabu not give you any money for food and for lodgings whatever? I find that strange that you didn't say to him look I've got no job, I go on these operations, I need money for food. This is what I find peculiar. Can you respond to that?

MR WANGA: At our meeting places with Jabu we would stay there for the whole day and we would get something to eat, we had our own places where we wished to stay and we would only go there to those places for a meeting. It was not difficult for us to get money, it was not a question for us when to get money or whom are we staying with that would determine whether we do it or not or get clothing or not.

ADV BOSMAN: And then if you had planned these operations properly what did you plan in regard to transport there and back?

MR WANGA: Transport would be used to get us quicker - to get us to our destination quicker and from that particular place, that particular destination we would use transport from that place to wherever.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did not have transport back, what were your plans, where would you get the transport? You told us that the farm was quite away from public transport, you did not have transport, you had done reconnaissance, so what were your plans for transport back?

MR WANGA: Just before the day of the operation we would use public transport to visit the place and we wouldn't go straight to the job but we would go to the contact person who was responsible for reconnaissance and the person who would take us there to reconnoitre the place and we come back using public transport, that on the day of the operation there would be special transport that would take us from wherever, to take us there to the place and the transport would go back and leave us there at the scene.

ADV BOSMAN: But what I don't understand, then I'll leave it, if you did not have transport to go back, you said that you were far away, quite a distance were your words from public transport, so did you initially plan to get public transport which was a distance away?

MR WANGA: We knew that from the scene, there would be no car that would be waiting for us in that situation, we knew that we would use other ways from that scene after completing the mission. We would go to our next destination, we would go there with transport, go to that place and come back with other means without using the same transport that we used as we were going there.

ADV BOSMAN: What is the risky part of the operation when you've got arms with you, you've got other articles with you, you've got stolen money with you, that is the risky part and you had no plans for particular transport, is that correct?

MR WANGA: We knew that anything that you would meet with on the way we were ready to attack if the condition conveyed us to do so. The person who was in our company, we knew that he knew that he knew that route so well and we knew that he will take a certain route, we were not just working just randomly because we were careful, we didn't want to take a risk.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, you've referred to Vuyisile Andries, that's the person who was doing the reconnaissance for your unit, is that so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a farm worker for the Claassens?

MR WANGA: He was working for a building contractor that was working around in those farms in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: So was he a resident in the Kirkwood area?

MR WANGA: Yes he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not providing information and not in fact reconnoitring operations? I'm getting more confused as you give your evidence because I thought he was merely providing you with information and not in fact during the reconnaissance?

MR WANGA: He was giving us information about the place that he had already reconnoitred and he would go there and inspect the place in his presence to confirm the details that he had told us and to avoid certain things that he had given us warning about and we would confirm that ourselves as he was giving us information.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would reconnoitre the place before the unit actually agreed whether the operation had to be conducted on a particular target that he had thought of, is that your evidence.

MR WANGA: What used to happen was this, he would come with us with a suggestion, told us about the place and the commander would go there and check the place and the commander would come back and tell us about the decisions that would be taken thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you said something contrary to what you are just saying now and normally in any operation of this nature, a person can't reconnoitre on his own unless permission has been given by the commander, otherwise what role would be the commander be playing in a unit if people were allowed to reconnoitre on their own without authorisation from the commander. Now that being so, can you explain to me what role exactly was planned by Dingane as the commander of the unit?

MR WANGA: Dingane was the main person who was giving us guidance, if he arrived at a place he would instruct us, tell each of us what to do and each and everyone of us knew the role within a very short space of time, we would know what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You have founded your application on the basis that you were acting on the orders of Jabu Mdunge who was the overall commander of your unit. When were these orders given by Mdunge to your unit on which you acted upon?

MR WANGA: During our meeting times we would be there all of us as the unit. He would then issue such instructions, but we knew that there was a subordinate, his subordinate like Aaron. If we go to that particular operation and then his subordinate would be our leader during the operation. So that was said in our presence, he would mention that in our presence.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, please just try and understand my question, to your knowledge when did Mdunge first give you orders to conduct the operations that you subsequently conducted on the strength of those orders? Give us the year, I want to know the period in which orders were given by Mdunge for you to carry out these operations?

MR WANGA: First of all it was in 1988, it was the first time for us to go out and do such an operation, it was our first operation and we knew that he had a certain programme and we would hear of certain issues from our unit commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when his orders were given by Mdunge?

MR WANGA: We would all be there but we would be there when we knew that we would go out with the unit commander, we will then all be there.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the contents of the order, if you could be specific?

MR WANGA: As we were going out for operations, we knew what was required from us, what we were supposed to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't understand my question, I want to find out from you what the contents of Mdunge's order was to you as a unit? You were given these orders in 1988, you state. What were the contents of the orders given to you by Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: We used to go there to get weapons and money. You probably do not understand, I'm trying to make myself as simple as simplicity can be. Your application is founded on the basis that you were ordered by Mdunge to rob the farmers.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know is, what were the contents of the order, what exactly did Mdunge say to your unit because you say you, as Mr Wanga, was also there when the order was first given by Mdunge in 1988. What exactly did he say that gave you the view that you were now being ordered to go out and rob and do all the acts in respect of which you are now seeking amnesty?

MR WANGA: He said that we must know that whatever we were there to do, we're not doing it for our own benefit, we're doing it for the people of South Africa and when we finished with the operation, we would then meet with the unit commander and report back and he told us that whatever we found in the area, we would hand it over to him and give him a full report about what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you to indiscriminately go and rob whoever that you had identified as a target?

MR WANGA: We wouldn't go there by ourselves, we would meet with him and he would tell us about a target where we had to go for an operation, we wouldn't just go to a certain place or wouldn't go to him and say we wanted to rob a certain place. He would give us instruction to go to a particular target.

CHAIRPERSON: It that's your evidence then Mr Wanga, why were you told by Andries to rob the Claassen's farm, your evidence has not suggested in any way that this operation had the blessings of Mdunge, that Mdunge was the one who identified this target. Your evidence is based on the fact that it's Andries who identified the target, did the reconnaissance. How do you reconcile those two versions that you are putting to us?

MR WANGA: Maybe you are making a mistake because what we did, we did it under the instructions of Jabu Mdunge and we knew that there would be a contact person in that area. Andries wouldn't come to us and report to us, we would go to him following Jabu Mdunge's instructions. If it was necessary for us to go there before the operation, Jabu would give us permission to go there and he would be aware of what was going to happen..

CHAIRPERSON: So Jabu would approve of the operation before you went ahead to carry it out, that's your evidence?

MR WANGA: What I'm saying is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just say yes or no. Just say yes or no, do I understand you correctly if you say any operation that you would want to carry out would be approved before you carried out by Jabu?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try and keep to the point, we don't have time and these orders came into being in 1998 to your knowledge? When in 1988? Early 1988, mid 1988, late 1988?

MR WANGA: It was early in October or mid October.

CHAIRPERSON: Before October 1988 did your unit carry out any operations as a unit? Now that's before you got orders from Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: I can't say what others were doing before, but what I know is the operation that I was involved in, in 1988, on the 28th November, it was our first operation together. I don't know before what they were doing in the places they were trained in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mdunge - I'm sorry Mr Wanga, we take it that you are being honest with this Committee, you will recall what in your evidence in chief and throughout your evidence thereafter you have stated that your unit came into existence late 1987. Are you saying that as a unit you operated independently? Your evidence was that your unit came into existence in late 1987 and that you operated as a unit, it has never changed structurally because this is the question that I put to you during your evidence in chief? So how would you not know what your unit was doing? Are you saying that you had no discipline, each member was doing anything that it wanted to do without the blessing of both Mr Mdunge and your commander Mr Dingane, is that what you're saying?

MR WANGA: No we wouldn't do anything we wanted when we were involved in the armed struggle. We wouldn't do what was against the constitution of the cadres. Something like that wouldn't happen, you wouldn't do what you were not given instructions to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were there any operations that your unit were involved in prior to October 1988 since you came into existence late 1987? I'm waiting for your response?

MR WANGA: Our operation happened on the 28th November 1988. There were no other operations that we did together at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And if that is so, how did you know how did you

know how you would be able to conduct any operation? Where would you get arms and such logistical requirements about the car that would take you to the place that had been targeted for this kind of operation? Can you give us details about that taking into account that you are saying this was your first operation?

MR WANGA: When we would meet, we would be educated about such matters, we would be told how to do certain things. There were guidelines that we were given on how to conduct such operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from late '87 to October 1988 what exactly did your operation do to advance the struggle which was being waged by your organisation which you say was the military ring of the PAC?

MR WANGA: We would have meetings all around Port Elizabeth in the places that we were involved in.

CHAIRPERSON: What meetings?

MR WANGA: We would tell people that we were members in such and such a manner but we would follow the constitution of the policy of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all your unit did from late '87 to October 1988 when it was formed with a view of being an assault unit, you never conducted any kind of operation to advance the broad military objectives of the armed wing of the PAC? You did nothing except to attend meetings advising people that you were PAC members?

MR WANGA: There were no other duties that we did except for the ...[indistinct] the time of the operation in November.

CHAIRPERSON: Really? How did you sustain yourself as a unit to do that kind - I suppose it involved extensive travelling? How did you sustain yourself as a unit from July, from late '87 to October 1988?

MR WANGA: We were able to sustain ourselves as a unit because if you are a person who was politicised and a person who was aware of what we do at a certain time, we would get instructions and we would wait for instructions about when to work because we were working for the people of this country.

We knew that we wouldn't do just anything because we were given orders or instructions to wait for an order for us to work. That didn't bother us that we waited or we did nothing because we knew about our programme.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not responded to my simple question of how you survived as a unit between that period, where did you get your sustenance. You've had not conducted a simple operation that would have in fact enabled you to sustain yourself as a unit. We have had countless applications where people were involved in all kinds of operations for the liberation movement and none has ever said they were able to exist in a vacuum. You've got to be able to get some kind of sustenance from somewhere. Where did you get yours from?

MR WANGA: We would go and visit each other and we would know that at certain times we were supposed to meet so and so and that was not difficult for us, we knew that on a certain day when a particular day would meet and we'd discuss things and then we would part after that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I will leave that Mr Wanga, I still do not understand how your unit was able to sustain itself. Now you've mentioned when you were cross-examined that you had forgotten to mention two names of members of your unit and that's Lamela and Kolisi, do you recall saying that?

MR WANGA: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: How could you forget members of your unit, this was a very small unit, can you explain how you come prepared for these hearings and you forget just two names when you are a unit consisting of only five members?

MR WANGA: This happened a long time ago. I knew that I would appear before the Amnesty Committee a week before and we have separated with these people a long time ago, some of them had passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and that would have been the reason for you to sit down and find out or inform yourself or remind yourself about such important details. I mean this is not something that you can easily forget. Did you know these people by their first names or by their codenames?

MR WANGA: As I've already said I knew their codenames, I also knew their first names because the day they were released in prison, their names were used, I remembered their names there and it is possible for me to forget them because where we are, the place that we are staying in right now is disturbing us in our minds.

CHAIRPERSON: But these are the people who were your comrades for almost a year, for more than a year, you worked together closely as a unit, as an assault unit of APLA?

Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to call further witnesses in support of Mr Wanga's version at least of the application or you'd want to have Mr Dingane leading his evidence in chief and being questioned before you can call further witnesses. How do you propose to run your application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson I have no intention, there's no a witness which has been provided for me to support their application after they have given evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: In which event then I think we have to proceed with the testimony of Mr Dingane who is in the same application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed Mr Mbandazayo, let me just make enquiries which maybe members of the translation services would like to have a break of about two minutes because I know it can be pretty hot in those booths or if they are okay and we can proceed?

INTERPRETER: We can proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

______________________________________________________AARON XAGISO DINGANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.

Mr Dingane, you have heard Mr Wanga, do you confirm what has been said by Mr Wanga in as far as it relates to yourself and you abide by that?

MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dingane, just a few questions then I would like you to tell the Committee about your membership of PAC. When did you join PAC?

MR DINGANE: I joined in 1976 under Dennis Siwisa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you at any stage in your membership of PAC become a member of another organisation like AZAPO BCM?

MR DINGANE: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee how did you meet Mr Wanga?

MR DINGANE: I met Mr Wanga when we had our unit in Vierplaas. Mr Wanga was introduced to me by our commander, Mr Jabu Mdunge when we first met.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that he had something to do with BCM?

MR DINGANE: No I didn't.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now in your application you were asked - in paragraph 11(a) at page 5, Chairperson - was the act committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf or of the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement concerned and you said that orders from Azanian Peoples Liberation Army and Mr Wanga has told the Committee that the order was given by Mr Mdunge, Jabu Mdunge. Why didn't you mention as a commander of the unit, as it has been alleged, mention the name of the person who gave you the order?

MR DINGANE: There are technical mistakes because of the place that we are staying in. Some of the things are forgotten when you write down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, in any event in 11(b) it says:

and you wrote there:

Are you saying to the Committee that the order you were given by whoever gave you like Jabu Mdunge was to attack the white farms and nothing was specific, it was just a general order that you attack the white farms?

MR DINGANE: First of all Chairperson, I want to clarify this. Number one I am not here to ask for amnesty for the liberation struggle, to liberate the people of Azania. Secondly, the order was from our commander, Jabu Mdunge. I don't regret what I did at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, won't you again repeat your question to your client because he doesn't seem to understand what you want him to respond to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Dingane, my question is to you, you wrote in paragraph 11(b) that whatever was given to you was to attack the white farms. Now my question is, you said that the order you were given, you were given orders by Jabu Mdunge, was the order generally as you put it here that just to attack the white farms, nothing was specific. How do you attack the white farms, it was just general that you go and attack white farms, that was the order given by him?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, first of all we would go and reconnoitre the place and before we go to that place we would have a meeting and then after the meeting we would then take steps and we would go and attack that particular place.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, you counsel doesn't want you to give him the modus operandi of your operations, do you understand that? He simply wants to understand whether you were given general instructions or was it a general order on what you were to do or were you given a specific order or is the order as you were given by Mdunge as indicated at paragraph 11(b) which was general, to attack white farmers?

MR DINGANE: We were repossessing Chairperson. The situation that we were living under, there was nobody to liberate us, we had to liberate ourselves. Our struggle was directed to our enemy because the white people came to our country and they took our land.

ADV MOTATA: Let me just stop you there, Mr Dingane. Please, the question is simple. When Jabu Mdunge gave you orders, did he say attack white farms in general, forget about the struggle and the enemies? Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane may I suggest that if you do not understand a question it is perfectly - you are in a position to find out from your legal representative to repeat himself if you have not fully comprehended what he wants you to respond to. Please feel free to do that rather than having to respond to a question that you have not fully comprehended, thereby leading to wrong evidence being transcribed and asked relying on the wrong evidence?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm indebted to the Committee, Chairperson.

Mr Dingane, Mr Wanga told the Committee that whatever you took from whichever operation, you were handing over to Jabu Mdunge and in paragraph 10(d) of your application where it is said that:

Am I correct to interpret that paragraph to say that the amount of money you robbed from Mr Claassen's farm was used to finance your unit to be able to continue with the struggle?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, as I've already said, as Wanga has already said, whatever we'd get during an operation we'd hand it over to our commander Jabu Mdunge.

CHAIRPERSON: But please answer the question, the question is was the money used to finance your unit in order to continue with the struggle, that is the question that has been posed to you by your counsel, yes or no?

MR DINGANE: We would take the money and hand it over to Jabu Mdunge. Can you please repeat your question ma'am?

ADV MOTATA: Mr Mbandazayo, I would suggest that whilst you ask that question, 10(d), even show it to him what he wrote down there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, my question is Mr Wanga told the Committee that whatever you repossessed or robbed from whichever operation you were involved in, you were handing it to Jabu Mdunge. We have no problems about that, we are aware of that. Now my question is to you, want an explanation that in paragraph (d) of your application you say that the R7000 that you robbed, you were able to fund the unit in which you were to be able to continue with the struggle. Now my question is, is my interpretation correct when I say that the amount you robbed from Mr Claassen's farm, you used it for the benefit of your unit?

MR DINGANE: The money that we robbed from Mr Claassen, we took it and we handed it over to Mr Jabu Mdunge. In our unit there would be money that we would use maybe to buy petrol and such things, we would use some money for our unit to continue with the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was keeping the money for the unit?

MR DINGANE: It was Jabu Mdunge.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Mbandazayo, on that point probably in order to ...[indistinct] this matter. You are saying that you were provided by Mr Mdunge with some money to buy petrol for your unit. When was this money given to you?

MR DINGANE: This would not have been every time but it would happen when we saw that we needed money for petrol or we needed money to buy something and then he would take the rest.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now forget about other times. The question is being directed with regard to the incident you've mentioned wherein you robbed Mr Claassens of R7000. Was that money used to finance your unit as you have alleged in your application at paragraph 10(d)?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, the money, some of the money, some of this amount we used it for the unit and then we handed the rest to Jabu Mdunge.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were from Mr Claassens place you went to the house at Vierplaas I suppose, that's the evidence we've heard from Mr Wanga. You opened the safe, you counted the money, you then - when did you take the part that you used for the sustenance of your unit and the balance that was given to Mr Mdunge. When and where?

MR DINGANE: When we opened the safe there was money left for the unit, I think it was about R200.

CHAIRPERSON: The R7000 that you have alleged in your papers, was it separate from the safe?

MR DINGANE: It was in the safe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now what I want to know is you've just stated that you took a portion of the R7000 which you used for your unit and gave the rest to Mr Mdunge, have I understood your evidence correctly?

MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And at which point did you take a portion for your unit, was it before you went to Mr Mdunge or after you were with Mr Mdunge or probably when you were with Mr Mdunge would be the correct way of putting it?

MR DINGANE: It was during the time when we were with Mr Mdunge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Dingane, was it your first time that you have been convicted of a criminal offence on this matter?

MR DINGANE: No it was not the first time, I was arrested before for the car theft.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was that offence related to any political objective?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you also apply for amnesty for that offence?

MR DINGANE: I was given two years suspended sentence for that offence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes I know that, what I'm asking is that did you apply for amnesty for that offence?

MR DINGANE: No I didn't apply for amnesty.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you involved in any other offence?

MR DINGANE: I don't remember whether there is any other.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But it is possible there is another one?

MR DINGANE: Yes, together with this one.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what did you do with the car?

MR DINGANE: We would use this car when we were going to the Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When was that?

MR DINGANE: I think it was in 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, a problem, there won't be one who is not on the same page as the evidence which is being led now. I do not see an incident that relates to the year 1983? I only have an incident that relates to 1985 in which a person was robbed of three firearms and a Toyota motor vehicle. I just - probably try and bring me up to speed?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I'm sorry, the one you are referring 1985 is the Grahamstown incident. I've asked him whether he was involved in any other incident and he mentioned another one of stealing the motor vehicle which is not related to the 1985 one that's why I was asking whether he had applied for amnesty whether it was political motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

And at that time you committed this offence, who gave you an order to do that?

MR DINGANE: Jabu Mdunge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you come into contact with Jabu Mdunge?

MR DINGANE: It was late 1983 or 1984.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And what you just told the Committee that the offence you are relating to is 1983?

MR DINGANE: Yes but I'm not sure about the year but I do have a car theft case between 1982/1983 but I'm not sure about the year.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I just for the purposes - were you - what name did you use at that time?

MR DINGANE: Mokapa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you were arrested, what name did you give the police?

MR DINGANE: Eric Pupa.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Mr Mbandazayo in respect of the 1983 incident?

MR DINGANE: Yes Chairperson, I wanted to clarify that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we do have I think a record thereof which I think was inserted erroneously in our bundle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, I don't think it was inserted Chairperson erroneously.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what my evidence leader advised me and actually instructed me to disregard that record.

MS PATEL: If I may respond Honourable Chairperson, the applicant has at nowhere in his application before us mentioned what he is testifying to now. We were also at no stage advised that Mr Puba and Mr Dingane are one and the same person, that comes as news to me and my office certainly had no knowledge of this according to my instructions in any event.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to clarify on that Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to use that record and if so for what purpose?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, Chairperson my understanding when I received the documentation I had the impression that Eric Pupa and Mr Dingane are one and the same person so I that impression that it has been put in this bundle specifically for that purpose as it has been done previously, where somebody has previous records. So I had that impression because I'm going through it and I found that I've seen no reason that it can be here and when I look at it and peruse it, that is why I was asking him, he has brushed with the law, that's why I was asking which name because I wanted it for the record because I see that it's one and the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: But he doesn't seek to apply for amnesty in respect of the 1983 application. We certainly do not have any applications before us in respect of that particular offence and would be unable to hear Mr Dingane with regard to that incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes thank you Chairperson, I was not intending I was just asking for clarification for the part of the record, to know that he was - had once brushed with the law and it was relating so that's why I was asking whether it was relating to any political offence.

Now Mr Dingane you indicated now that yourself you met Mr Mdunge quite sometime, about 1983/84 and what did you when you first met him, who introduced him unto yourself. Who introduced Mdunge to yourself?

MR DINGANE: I met him when we were recruiting people together with Mr Dennis Siwisa. Mr Dennis Siwisa is the one who introduced me to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And what did he tell you about this Mdunge?

MR DINGANE: He told me that he was a member of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you yourself undergo any military training?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you train?

MR DINGANE: In the Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In which year?

MR DINGANE: It was late in 1983. I think it was in November 1983.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Under whose command were you training?

MR DINGANE: Under Mokapa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to conclude my ...[indistinct] of yourself, can you Mr Dingane tell the Committee why should you be granted amnesty on this incident? Why do you think this incident is politically motivated and that what you did was on behalf of APLA or you were given orders. Can you tell the Committee?

MR DINGANE: Yes I made this application because I got instructions or the orders from our commander Jabu Mdunge. We got instructions to further or to continue the liberation struggle in this country.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that amnesty should be granted to yourself because you were given an order by Jabu Mdunge or what you did was in pursuance of political struggle?

MR DINGANE: Yes because I was furthering the aims of the struggle, the political struggle, that's why I did what I did and that's why I made this application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Dingane, you at the start of your evidence have confirmed the evidence of Mr Wanga insofar as it relates to you. Does that include having authorised the incident that occurred on the 27th November 1988, a day before the incident for which you now apply for amnesty?

MR DINGANE: Before we went to Kirkwood there is an incident that I gave them an order about. I wanted them to continue with the liberation in Kirkwood. I arrived there late and when I arrived there, there was a job that they had already done.

MS PATEL: At what stage did you then give them the instruction to carry out that operation that occurred on the 26th?

MR DINGANE: The operation on the 26th - I would like you to explain ma'am, there are two operations that took place in Kirkwood. There's Mr Claassen's operation and there's another operation. I was not charged for that because I arrived there late. We had already given them instruction to continue with the struggle in Kirkwood. We told them not to wait for us, there was a place that we planned to attack the following day, I arrived today and then the next day we attacked the next place.

MS PATEL: I don't understand, the operation that Mr Wanga was involved in without you, did that take place before the incident at Mr Claassen's farm or after?

MR DINGANE: I would like you to explain because there are two operations that Wanga was involved in that I was not involved. There was an operation that he was involved in on the day that we arrived in Kirkwood and there's another operation that he did when I was in prison so I'm not clear exactly to which operation you are referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, maybe you would be assisting him a great deal if you gave him particulars of the nature of the operation you are referring to?

MS PATEL: The incident that I'm referring to also occurred on a farm, it's called Euphesia, it's on the day before Mr Claassen's place was robbed, right? The owner at that farm was in fact tied up and the only things that were stolen according to my information is a T.V. and clothing. This is not the incident where it was alleged that Mr Wanga had raped somebody, this is not that incident. When the rape occurred you were in jail.

MR DINGANE: It is clear now. Yes I don't know about that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I recall having put that incident to Mr Wanga? I don't recall or am I going a little tired for the day, did you put it to Mr Wanga.

MS PATEL: I did, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that the incident which happened on the 26th or 27th November?

MS PATEL: The one that I'm now referring to where this applicant wasn't involved in was on the 26th November.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: There is an incident where the rape was allegedly committed, was in 1989 when this applicant was allegedly in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you are now referring to?

MS PATEL: The one on the 26th November.

CHAIRPERSON: Or the 27th?

MS PATEL: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the Kirkwood incident happened on the 28th?

MS PATEL: In any event the 27th or the 28th, whichever it may be, that's the Claassen incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: That's not what I'm referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, are you able to comprehend what Ms Patel wants to get from you? Do you recall the incident, do you know anything about that incident? It happened a day before the Claassen's incident in Kirkwood.

MR DINGANE: Yes I do recall the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you then proceed to respond to her questions?

MS PATEL: Okay, what were your instructions in terms of that incident?

MR DINGANE: The instructions in that incident, we wanted to get weapons and goods that we can find in the house to help the cadres from exile.

MS PATEL: And to whom did you give these instructions?

MR DINGANE: I gave them to Wanga.

MS PATEL: Only him?

MR DINGANE: No.

MS PATEL: Who else?

MR DINGANE: It was Wanga and Andries and the other one we used to call him Memani, Sandisile Memani.

MS PATEL: Okay and who had reconnoitred the place?

MR DINGANE: It was Vuyisile Andries who was responsible for that and after that we would go and see for ourselves, I also went there to reconnoitre. I also went there.

MS PATEL: When was this?

MR DINGANE: I think it was in 1988, November or September.

MS PATEL: And did Jabu Mdunge accompany you when you reconnoitred the place?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Was Wanga with you when Jabu had reconnoitred the place?

MR DINGANE: When we left Port Elizabeth it was myself and Jabu, we found Wanga in Kirkwood. So I was the one who met them in Kirkwood. I was together with Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Didn't you say that you had arrived late? What did you mean when you said earlier on you had arrived late?

MR DINGANE: I didn't know exactly which incident you are referring to in Kirkwood because the incidents that happened when I was in prison and there was an incident that happened before I got there but the one Wanga mentioned I took part in that.

MS PATEL: No, your evidence if I recollect was that you had arrived late for this specific incident that we are now referring to. The other incident you couldn't have arrived late because you were in prison?

MR DINGANE: I didn't differentiate between these incidents. I didn't differentiate between the incident that Wanga was involved in when I was in prison and the incident that he was involved in when I was outside. It was not clear to me which incident you are referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Ms Patel?

Now issues being now clear in your mind, were you present when this incident took place? Were you present?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say you reconnoitred the place together with Mr Mdunge, did that happen on the 27th or the 26th November? Did your reconnaissance happen on the day of the commission of the offence?

MR DINGANE: No, after we had reconnoitred the place we took two weeks before we attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Did you then on the 26th go with Mr Wanga to this farm? Were you involved in the actual operation, that is my question?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already said he was involved Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry Honourable Chairperson you were saying?

CHAIRPERSON: I was saying he has already admitted his involvement in the operation.

MS PATEL: Mr Wanga at no stage mentioned that you were present with him. All he said was that you had authorised the operation. Can you explain?

MR DINGANE: Yes, he was supposed to say that because at the time I was driving a car there was a Toyota that we were using. I dropped them off there and I waited until they came back. I took part, I was part of that operation.

MS PATEL: Why did you wait for them to come, is it part of the planning?

MR DINGANE: Yes it was part of the planning.

MS PATEL: So then for the Claassen incident why didn't you also arrange for whoever had dropped you off to wait for you?

MR DINGANE: There was a place that we were supposed to go to so to save time we decided to continue with the job without the transport and the time that we were attacking this place we looked at the time and we were looking at the fact that the police are going to get the report or what. We attacked that place late and we knew that at that time it was dark so we would walk from that place.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that you attacked the Claassen's farm at night?

MR DINGANE: No, we attacked it around four or after four on a Saturday. It was in the afternoon but the distance that we were going to walk, we knew that at that time nobody will find us because it was late.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand Mr Dingane. Will you just come again? The reason why you didn't organise transportation was because by the time you would attack the Claassen's farm it would be dark? You had to attack the farm at about 4 o'clock in the afternoon which is fairly in broad daylight to me?

MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct, we attacked that shop in the afternoon but what happened is the transport would be used for other operations so to save time we decided to attack this place in the afternoon so that whatever happens, if the police had come, we would know that at that time we would have left the area, so we didn't need transport for that place because it would be already late.

CHAIRPERSON: But what if the police were to come around 4 o'clock, that in broad daylight anyone can see you. You would be looking quite suspicious wouldn't you and you were hoping to get all kinds of movable property I suppose for your unit, anything that would have been valuable and could be utilised to advance the struggle would be taken by you. You can't go into an operation and hope to take things that you would only put into your pocket? Now I still don't understand the reason you are advancing for not arranging for transportation when you would be attacking a farm when you were attacking this shop at 4 p.m. Do you agree that 4 p.m. there is still some sun, it's daylight, it's not dark?

MR DINGANE: First of all, concerning the police Chairperson, I know that when something happened it would be reported to the police and the police would go to that area. Secondly, we knew what we were going to do in Mr Claassens, we knew that we were going to take money so we didn't expect the money to be in an heavy object where we would need transport, we knew that we would be able to take that money with us, we won't need transport to transport that money, that is what I'm trying to explain.

ADV MOTATA: Did you have a watch with you?

MR DINGANE: I didn't have a watch but Mr Andries did have a watch.

ADV MOTATA: Let me come to your assistance probably as regards time. Would you agree with the police report which says this incident occurred at 18.40 hours, would they be right?

MR DINGANE: I'm not sure about the time I'm just guessing about the time because we didn't arrive at that place and attack at the same time. We waited so I'm not sure about the time. It was raining that day.

ADV MOTATA: Would it be more or less right then, 18.40 taking into account the wait and the rain not to wet you and the attack taking place at approximately 18.40, would that time be more or less right?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, I can't say that was the right time or what, I can't even say the time that I'm estimating is the right time or not because when you are in a mission it is very difficult to right down and say at a certain time I was doing this and this. I was not writing down what I was doing at that time, I was just guessing.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Dingane, listen quite carefully, you have told us that you had reconnoitred this place and Mr Wanga said you arrived there, you did not go immediately, you waited for the afternoon and you are saying to us now that it was a little darkish or it was dark and the Chairperson says no, no, no, no, 4 p.m. the sun is there, then I said the police investigated this matter because I've got documentation of that nature before me. Put it at 18.40 hours and you are giving us a long story, what I want to ask you is that would that time be more or less correct, I'm not saying you were looking at a watch and doing all sorts of things. I'm merely asking you is that more or less correct, if we were approaching the darkness which you were trying to arrive at to commit this robbery?

ADV BOSMAN: Do you understand that 18.40 is 20 to 7 in the evening?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson I didn't have a watch, so I wouldn't be sure about the time but it was in the afternoon and it was raining, that is why I'm saying that it was past four or it was 4 o'clock but what I know is that it was in the afternoon, it was late, about 4 in the afternoon. From 4 upwards it's late.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane I want you to proceed with how you recall events and disregard whatever comments we have made as a panel. You've already quite firmly stated that this operation was conducted in the afternoon even though it was raining. Ms Patel you may proceed.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Dingane?

MR DINGANE: About what you just said about what we did when we got there I wanted to know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I think Ms Patel will be asking you questions and you will respond the way you recollect the events to have happened so she will continue with her questions, I think we intervened whilst she was still putting questions to you. She will now - just listen to her questions and simply respond to what will be put to you.

MS PATEL: Can I just ask, you stated that you knew that you were only going there to get money but what about the weapons that you had intended stealing? Did you know what weapons were in that place before you went there?

MR DINGANE: We didn't know the kind of weapons that were there but we knew that the farmers do have weapons that are given to them by the apartheid government.

MS PATEL: What if it had turned out that Mr Claassen had a whole range of weapons there that you could have stolen, did you not think that it would have been dangerous for you to be seen walking around with a whole lot of weapons that you would have found? You see you clearly didn't know exactly what you were going to find, you could have found ten rifles, how did you know?

MR DINGANE: First of all I have explained that we attacked this place late, we arranged for this time so that we could be able to take anything that we can in that place. If we found some heavy stuff we would take that stuff and then we would try and get a car on our way.

MS PATEL: So are you saying the alternative plan would have been to steal a car on the way after you've robbed Mr Claassen if you had found too many goods that you thought you wanted to take but couldn't carry?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, we would take a car if we meet one on our way if we had a problem with the goods that we repossessed in that area.

MS PATEL: Okay can I ask, the car that was used to drop you off you said you couldn't wait because it was to be used in other operations. Which other operations was it used for specifically that evening?

CHAIRPERSON: That afternoon, Ms Patel.

MR DINGANE: We were not aware of each and every operation that would be done but we knew that it was going to be used because if it was taken to the other area we wouldn't ask what it was going to do, we were not required to ask everything all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not the commander of your unit and you as a commander as a unit wouldn't be one of your primary functions to make sure that your operations succeeded and that you took contingency measures in whatever way to make sure that it succeeded and invariably in a situation such as this, this would include transport and you'd be told by Mr Mdunge I suppose, was the only senior person over to you, why the car had to be used and what the car would be used for.

MR DINGANE: About the transport issue I would like you to repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying you were the commander of your unit, you've just said to Ms Patel that you didn't know what the car was going to be used for. Now I'm just concerned about your response because you're now talking like an ordinary foot soldier. You were the commander of your unit and as a commander of your unit your primary function would be to ensure that the conduct of your operation succeeded at all cost and that would involve having to take whatever contingency measures that you had been trained, as a commander, to take into account in ensuring that your operation succeeded and if a car was not going to be available for your operation, you would have been told by Mr Mdunge why the car would not be available for your particular operation and what it would be used for whilst you were busy with another operation. Now you are saying you don't know what the car was going to be used for, you are talking like a foot soldier and not like a commander. Surely some of these details you were made privy to as a commander of that unit?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, during those times, during the past regime, some of the things our commander wouldn't tell us, he would just do whatever he wanted to do so I didn't have a right to ask what this car was going to be used for, he had a right to tell me what to do and I was supposed to follow the instructions that I got from our commander.

MS PATEL: But Mr Dingane your entire unit was involved in this operation. If there wasn't a vehicle available to take you away from it, where was the urgency? Why couldn't you arrange it for a day later when perhaps - or a week later when the vehicle would be available? Surely it makes no sense to put your entire unit at risk and this especially since initially the evidence was that this was the first major operation that the unit was involved in?

MR DINGANE: As a soldier you are trained to be prepared for anything you come across so there are things that you had to do without transport no matter how difficult they are.

MS PATEL: Okay, let me make it simple for you, why couldn't you, simply, why couldn't you have arranged for a day when a car would be available, what was the problem with that?

MR DINGANE: There was no need for us to change to another day, we had to continue with that operation. If we changed the day maybe the information would be leaked out, maybe we would change the day and there would be problems with our operations so we had to do the operation according to our plan. There are a lot of things that would disturb us or you when we are operating. Maybe when we change that day there would be visitors in that area so our job would not continue. So we had to do what we did without transport, everything was planned so we had to do everything according to the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose again Ms Patel? Mr Dingane, you've been sitting there when Mr Wanga was giving evidence and as it turned out there was a visitor on that day, a lady came in, that is the evidence that is before us so how can you use the fact that there might be a visitor coming in when you change the date of your operation? There was a visitor and that did not stop you from proceeding to carry out your operation.

MR DINGANE: Maybe if we have changed the day, maybe there would be a party on that particular day, so there was only one visitor on that day, maybe the other days we would find there is a party and there's a whole lot of people so we decided to do the job according to the plan.

MS PATEL: Mr Dingane, you don't seriously expect us to believe that but anyway, be that as it may, it's not a question.

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, I would like us to understand each other. The fact about, the point about visitors, maybe there would be visitors or not but if we change the day of the attack because of the transport, if we had to cancel the job because of that we wouldn't do that. That is why I'm saying that maybe if we change the day we would find that there's a party in that house or the information has leaked.

CHAIRPERSON: If the information would have leaked and you were a unit consisting of five members, how would the leak - how would it have happened? I mean just how probable would that have happened that the information about your intended operation gets leaked to Mr Claassens? How probable is that Mr Dingane?

MR DINGANE: The places that we used to have our meetings, we wouldn't know whether a person next door can hear or is able to hear what we were discussing. Maybe it happens that a person next door would be able to hear what we are discussing and in that way the information would leak.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you really a properly organised unit? We've already heard evidence that you had been in existence for over a year yet you can proffer such excuses for not postponing an operation which had not been properly prepared particularly when comes to an important feature of that operation which was transportation when you intended to steal weapons and you didn't know what kind of weaponry the Claassens had?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, you can take a weapon and run away with it so I've already said as a soldier you have to be prepared for any situation no matter how difficult it is.

CHAIRPERSON: What we find improbable is your explanation that if you had found heavy weaponry you would then have had to organise transport after you had conducted your operation. Now you're exposing yourself to all kinds of dangerous things and that wouldn't accord, Mr Dingane, with the behaviour of a disciplined unit as you would like us to believe that your unit was disciplined, that it had been in existence for almost a year?

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, as a soldier, a soldier is able to see an easy way out of a trouble. Transport was not a problem to us. We were able to take transport wherever we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

You say that you were able to take transport from wherever you were, what do you mean by that?

MR DINGANE: What I mean is taking a car that we meet, in the farmhouses we would take a car and use it, that's what I meant.

MS PATEL: Okay and you were sure that this would be possible in the event of the immediate?

MR DINGANE: If we needed a car we would get a car, we were sure of that.

MS PATEL: From one of the neighbouring farms?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: So that means that you would have reconnoitred the neighbouring farms as well?

MR DINGANE: First of all Kirkwood is a small town so this means that we won't have a problem getting a car, that would be a plan that would appear as at that time. We would meet a car and we would discuss that ways to get that car.

MS PATEL: You said that you'd undergone military training. For how long?

MR DINGANE: I was going to be trained for six months but I was shot and then I was trained for two months. I was shot.

MS PATEL: What do you mean you were short?

MR DINGANE: I was shot when we were attacking the soldiers in Soweto.

MS PATEL: Oh, you were shot, sorry. Sorry. But you say that you received your training in Transkei, what is your having been shot in Soweto have to do with your training period in Transkei?

MR DINGANE: What I mean is that I only trained for two months, at that time I was shot at.

MS PATEL: You were shot whilst on training in Transkei but you were shot in Soweto, can you explain this? Transkei and Soweto are very far from each other?

MR DINGANE: In 1985 there was a state of emergency, I was shot at that time during the state of emergency. We were attacking the soldiers in Soweto.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, correct me if I'm wrong, did this witness not say that he was trained in 1983?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he was trained late in 1983 and in order to be precise he mentioned the month which was November and the training took place in the Transkei under the command of one Mogava.

MS PATEL: If that is correct which is what you've told us, what is your having been shot in 1985 got to do with your training in 1983?

MR DINGANE: I'm not surely about the year, Chairperson, I said between '83 and 1984 I went for the training in Transkei. Between November 1983 or 1984.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just tell you what your evidence was on that issue? You said you first came into contact with Mr Mdunge between 1983 and 1984. You said you're not sure, you said either '83 or '84. You however went on to state that you underwent military training in the Transkei in 1983 in November and went on to give us the name of the person who trained you which was Mr Mogava. Now you are free to change now if you've made a mistake but I just wanted to tell you that what Ms Patel is putting to you is what you in fact said. You're however free to change but don't change by suggesting that she is putting what you didn't say, that's what you said in your evidence?

MR DINGANE: I do hear you Chairperson. I would like to ask Ms Patel to repeat her question.

MS PATEL: Sorry Honourable Chairperson. You were saying that you had intended to undergo six months military training, but that you only underwent two months because you were shot, right? In Soweto. You then later brought up the state of emergency during 1985 and said that was the time when you were shot. My question to you was if you had said to us earlier that you had received, you had undergone your training in 1983, what does your having been shot in 1985 got to do with your shorter period of training that you would have received in 1983?

MR DINGANE: I didn't complete my training in 1983. We would be trained in different times because of security.

MS PATEL: My question to you initially was very simple Mr Dingane, I asked you for how long you'd been trained and you very simply said I intended six months but only went for two months. You didn't elaborate and say that there were other times that you had gone on training for?

MR DINGANE: Was that necessary Chairperson? Was that necessary for me to explain about the times?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, I think it was necessary particularly because let me advise you, this is the evidence you gave in chief, you were asked by your lawyer to give to this Committee information about the military training that you underwent? You were being led by your legal representative, this is the information you gave and you did not indicate that this training actually took place in sessions in various sessions which took place at different periods, you didn't give that kind of information. As it is your evidence reads as training which took place in the Transkei in November 1983, there is no indication that it was interrupted for whatever reason, that it was then resumed in a different region. We don't have that evidence. Yes, you were supposed to have given those details, one would have expect that if you give information about your military training you would give full particulars of your military training?

MR DINGANE: Thank you Chairperson. We were interrupted during the training, something happened. We were involved in a car accident.

CHAIRPERSON: May I on that point just for the sake of completeness and in understanding your evidence, I had not intended to interfere with Ms Patel nor with your legal representative. When you met Mr Mdunge in 1983, I take it that you had been trained as a cadre? Were you trained as an APLA cadre? You met Mr Mdunge late 1984 and to use your precision in November 1984.

MR DINGANE: 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh 1983, yes. At that stage had you undergone any military training?

MR DINGANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You had not undergone any kind of military training?

MR DINGANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Now recollect and try and recollect the best as you can. When did you first then undergo your military training which was interrupted because you have this motor vehicle accident?

MR DINGANE: I went to the Transkei in 1983. After I arrived in the Transkei I was trained for a month. After that I was involved in a car accident. After the car accident I came back to Port Elizabeth. I stayed here in 1984, I was not well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and by the time you met Mr Mdunge you hadn't gone for any kind of training?

MR DINGANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did you training in Soweto last?

MR DINGANE: I was not trained in Soweto I was trained in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you resume your training in the Transkei?

MR DINGANE: Yes for two months.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that?

MR DINGANE: I started in 1983, after a month I was involved in this car accident. I then went back in 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did that training last?

MR DINGANE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: No, No, let's talk about 1985, you've already stated that the training in 1983 lasted for a month only. We want to know how long the training in 1984 lasted.

MR DINGANE: I was trained for a month again in the Transkei. If I can estimate a month plus a week or two. After that we came back to Port Elizabeth where I was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you got shot in Soweto in 1985?

MR DINGANE: Yes I was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you also shot in Port Elizabeth in the same year?

MR DINGANE: I was shot in 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a slip of a tongue when you said Port Elizabeth just now?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, just for the clarity of the Committee, there's also a place called Soweto here in P.E. so that's the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's not meaning - that's why I say here in P.E. there's a place called Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh that really greatly assists us because when he speaks of Soweto we are thinking of Gauteng and that's why we are saying he got training in different regions. Thank you very much. Ms Patel please proceed?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. So all in all you only received just over two months of training, is that correct?

MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: And what were you trained in?

MR DINGANE: I was trained at the base in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what did your training consist of?

MR DINGANE: I did a crash course, how to handle a gun and crawling and the weapon theory, how to dismantle a firearm.

ADV MOTATA: And where would this be in the Transkei, we are talking of something like we say the East Rand/Cape, where precisely was this training based in the Transkei?

MR DINGANE: In Kwadendane.

MS PATEL: Did you receive any political education whilst you were there?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay, what was the nature of this political education?

MR DINGANE: The political education that we received, we were educated that we should liberate ourselves from the oppression and we had to try and remove the minority white government and replace it with the African government according to the needs of the Africans.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel how long do you think you'll still be with Mr Dingane? I'm just trying to take logistics into account having regard to the fact that not only us but other very significant role players in these proceedings might actually find it a little bit strenuous to continue too long. If you are going to be long we may have to adjourn, it's not something that's nice to adjourn when somebody is right in the middle of being cross-examined but I think it can't be avoided. Added to the fact that we are dealing with prisoners and correctional services does not like the idea of having to leave these premises late. We have been continuously warned and request that to take that sector into consideration when we do consider sitting late and no contingency measures were made with correctional services in that regard so I would be most reluctant to proceed later than we can. I think this is about the time that I would propose that we adjourn for tomorrow morning?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may just one question before we adjourn, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Mr Dingane, can you give me the codenames for all the members of your unit please?

MR DINGANE: It was Mr KK.

MS PATEL: Who was Mr KK?

MR DINGANE: It was Memani.

MS PATEL: Yes?

MR DINGANE: Mashula was B.

MS PATEL: Yes?

MR DINGANE: Shuga.

MS PATEL: Who was Shuga?

MR DINGANE: It was Sinacuo.

MS PATEL: Sinacuo?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay. And?

MR DINGANE: Those are the ones that I still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you know the codename of your applicant, can't you remember him sitting next to you?

MR DINGANE: When we met with Wanga I think at that time we hadn't known each other for a long time. He was from the Soweto unit and there was also Vierplaas unit. There were two units.

CHAIRPERSON: No, all that I wanted to know was what was his codename? Ms Patel wants to know the codenames of the members of your unit. You have omitted there the very next person sitting next to you.

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, I forgot Wanga's codename.

MS PATEL: What was your own codename?

MR DINGANE: Ekapu.

MS PATEL: Okay and just finally, Sinacuo, did this person go under some other name because it's not a name that was mentioned by Mr Wanga or is this an extra person?

MR DINGANE: Wanga doesn't know him because Wanga was from the Soweto unit, he was just from the Soweto unit, he then joined our Vierplaas unit so he didn't know him. He didn't know him.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose? Mr Dingane, you are being questioned about your unit, the unit under which you conducted the operations for which you are seeking amnesty. Now we are not aware of any other unit that is involved in the acts in respect of which amnesty is being sought. Now listen to me. You are telling us about Vierplaas and we only know that there was only one unit which consisted of certain members. Now you've mentioned a few of those people. What is being put to you is that Shuga has not been mentioned by Mr Wanga in his evidence whose evidence you said you agree with insofar as it related to you and your activities so was he a member of your unit, this particular unit that we are busy with? Don't confuse the issues please.

MR DINGANE: Are you referring to Shuga?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Dingane.

MR DINGANE: Yes because he's not in prison, he was released that is why I didn't mention others because they were released from prison.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want you to tell us about people who are in prison. The question that is put to you is who are the members of your unit, in fact Ms Patel wants the codenames of the members of your unit. You were the commander you should know, Mr Wanga was merely acting under your instructions and orders as the commander of the unit, are you telling us that you wouldn't know who your unit consisted of?

MR DINGANE: I do know the unit members that were under me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes just tell us the names, the codenames, give the codename and give the name of the individual concerned.

MR DINGANE: Other codenames were used, there was Bukari.

MS PATEL: And what was his proper name Mr Dingane?

MR DINGANE: Vuyisile.

MS PATEL: Okay and any others?

MR DINGANE: Yes, Mapepa.

MS PATEL: Was Mapepa the codename for whom?

MR DINGANE: Vumazonke.

MS PATEL: What is Vumazonke's full names, sorry? Do you remember?

MR DINGANE: No I don't remember.

MS PATEL: Okay, anybody else?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, I thought he said Mapepa was codenamed Vumazonke.

MS PATEL: I'm asking whether Vumazonke's full name is because it wasn't mentioned before by Mr Wanga, it's not part of the original list.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is the codename between Mapepa and Vumazonke, Mr Dingane.

MR DINGANE: Mapepa.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the codename and Vumazonke is the name?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know his surname?

MR DINGANE: Chekula.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Anyone else?

MR DINGANE: Nowanga.

MS PATEL: Wanga, is that the codename?

MR DINGANE: No, Wanga is my co-accused, he was called B.

MS PATEL: You certainly have taken quite a recovery to remember because just a few seconds ago you couldn't remember Wanga's codename.

MR DINGANE: Chairperson, it's my first time to be in such a place. The place that we are in it affects your mind so you cannot keep everything in your mind because the person's mind is like a computer, it keeps something and then it loses it.

MS PATEL: Okay Mr Dingane, you've now given me the same codename for two people, is that correct?

MR DINGANE: That is correct.

MS PATEL: So they both had the same codename?

MR DINGANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay, are there any other codenames?

MR DINGANE: No.

MS PATEL: Is this the full list of your unit or can't you or you're not in a position to remember which is it?

MR DINGANE: It's the full list.

MS PATEL: Okay thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we conclude for the day Mr Dingane, to your recollection you as a commander of that unit, do you know your unit to have consisted of six members excluding yourself and to consist of seven members inclusive of yourself, would that number be correct? My calculation as you were calling out the names comes to seven in all. Does that accord with your information as the commander of that unit?

MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think it has been a long day, no wonder I think Mr Dingane is able to forget and recall, we'd allow him to recharge the batteries of his computers so that tomorrow morning he comes in now fully charged and we want you to relax Mr Dingane, you really don't need to be fearful of this process. In the process of being fearful you might make mistakes which might be costly to your application, just really relax, this is nothing out of the ordinary, it is merely an enquiry to assist us to come to a fair and equitable decision insofar as your application for amnesty is concerned. This Committee will adjourn now and we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at 8.30. Thank you very much for your attendance.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just only I wanted clarity because I was told that tomorrow is another matter that's why I wanted to raise it whether we'll be able to continue with this one because I was told that there was another matter tomorrow?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbandazayo, I think the Committee is of the view that now that we have come this far with this matter we might as well complete it and not make it a semi-parted, whatever that is, you know in pushing this matter out to accommodate tomorrow's matter which was supposed to have started at 9 o'clock. I think Ms Patel will take care of that department but would really prefer to proceed to conclude the evidence of this application unless very good reasons are advanced why we should not do so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we actually see the legal representatives with our evidence leader in Chambers? Thank you.