DAY: 2

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane we’re ready for you.

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman this is the application in respect of Victor Wanda Muchacho Mabaso or Ngoma Zulu. His application is contained on page 29 of the bundle Mr Chair. Pages 29 until 35.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane, it would appear that most of the names are very similarly pronounced or spelled. I think for purposes of certainty, if you would be kind enough to mention the identity numbers of the applicants when they do come to give evidence. Yesterday’s applicant was Mbatha. Have you got his ID number?

MR SHANE:   ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON:   And this one?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, maybe while we’re waiting, just for your information sir, in the supplement, additional supplement, supplement two, there appears further particulars, as well as copies of the correspondence, as well as the answers to that from the applicant in this instance, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Which booklet is supplement to the blue one? Does it read application supplement on supplement one? The white one, supplement to.

MR SHANE:   Page 58 to 66 Mr Chairman. 58 till 66.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes Mr Shane.

INTERPRETER:   Chairperson this persons’s mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane, your ...(intervention)

MR SHANE:   I repeat the identity number:

760210 0210 6333 087. Applicant advises me that in fact his age is wrongly reflected by this, he was actually born in 1974, but this is his identity number.

CHAIRPERSON:   I suppose for identity purposes he’s stuck with that. Mr Mabaso, what language would you prefer to use?

MR MABASO:   Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

MR MABASO:   No.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Please be seated.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, the application by the applicant is in respect of two murders, the victims being Stephen Radebe, the same victim in respect of yesterday’s applicant Beki Khanyile, and Stephen Radebe. Also, Mr Chairman, although not mentioned in his application, he also applies for amnesty for the unlawful possession of weapons and ammunition. Quite clearly his possession of weapons and ammunition is mentioned in his application, and it was an oversight ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Where was that, that he mentions the possession?

MR SHANE:   All I’m saying, he shoots with, sir when he shoots people he obviously possessed weapons.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is it in respect of those weapons used in the murder for which he applies?

MR SHANE:   That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Fine.

MR SHANE:   Also sir, when he patrolled as well, weapons were possessed, but these are not gross human rights violations, they ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   But like I said, where there’s a hearable matter we might as well deal with the lot. How many counts of unlawful possession of firearms is he applying for?

MR SHANE:   Sir, it would be a general possession over a period of time. There was, he was in possession of weapons on several days, but he possessed weapons when these ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane, the law as I understand it, would compel any criminal charge in respect of such possession. One is the unlawful possession of X number of firearms during the period so and so, and so and so, and second the unlawful possession of ammunition, so many rounds, whatever, during the period so and so, and so and so. I’m not going to be too sticky about that, but as you well know, the generality of offences is something that doesn’t fall within our ambit, rightly or wrongly.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, from statements of the applicant, and from my instructions, he possessed weapons over a period time. He cannot remember exactly how many different weapons he possessed, or the amounts of ammunition he possessed. There were times when he was handed weapons by other members of the SDU, for that period time he possessed, he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane, it is going to be pointless explaining ...(inaudible). Would it not be prudent for the purposes of the application then, to restrict the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition to the incidents which have been identified and for which he actually applies for amnesty?

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE:   Yes sir, it would be, and we will restrict it to those acts.

Mr Mabaso, you are also known as Muchacho, is that correct?

MR MABASO:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   And you were in fact the commander of the Self-Defence Unit at Tokoza.

MR MABASO:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   You, as the commander you gave orders to other members and they carried out your orders. Is that correct?

MR MABASO:   That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Let’s just be very clear about this Mr Shane. You were only a commander in Penduka, that is Tambo Slovo, not in the whole of Tokoza. Is that correct?

MR MABASO:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   When you, let’s put it this way, were you the number one commander, in other words, in that section Penduka, you were in charge of the entire Self-Defence Unit. Is that correct?

MR MABASO:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Were you trained?

MR MABASO:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   Were you given any instruction on how to command such a unit?

MR MABASO:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who would give political leadership to the unit?

MR MABASO:   We used to meet with the ANC which will be represented by Mr Duma Nkozi who is in parliament in Cape Town. This included Mr Louis Sibeko who is councillor at Greater Alberton. These are the people with whom we used to meet falling from different organisation.

ADV GCABASHE:   They are, just to get this right again, they are the people who formed part of the overall committee that was guiding all the units in Tokoza. The central committee is what they called it, I think.

MR MABASO:   Yes, there were other people and I think they are part of these applications. Maybe I cannot remember them all now.

MR SIBANYONI:   You spoke about the councillor, I didn’t get the name. Who is this second name?

MR MABASO:   Louis Sibeko is the name. Louis Sibeko.

CHAIRPERSON:   So it’s Louis Sibeko, Duma Nkosi, and?

MR MABASO:   Shall I give you all the names?

ADV GCABASHE:   All the ones you remember, yes.

MR MABASO:   Bonga Nkosi, Lucky Siyephe, Blamoses Kupeka, Dumnisani Mbatha, Meneer Ngcubi. I cannot remember the others, but they are part of this submission.

MR SHANE:   Now, when did you join the Self-Defence Unit?

MR MABASO:   Between 1991 and 1992.

MR SHANE:   And when did you join the African National Congress?

MR MABASO:   In 1990. But I used to follow the ANC before 1990, but then I joined in 1990 after the unbanning of the armed struggle.

MR SHANE:   Did you live in Penduka section, with your family?

MR MABASO:   Yes, I used to reside there, at Khumalo Street.

MR SHANE:   What happened to your family’s home?

MR MABASO:   The house was occupied by Inkatha people. Before the occupation they actually attacked the house in my absence. I had fled to another area resulting from my SDU activities. They attacked the house and killed four people. My grandmother, my grandfather, my brother, as well as my sister. Am I correct? It’s my grandmother, my grandfather, my mother, my brother, and two of them got injured. One of these two injured was a neighbour and he’s confined to a wheelchair as I speak.

MR SHANE:   And you knew that this attack was carried out by Inkatha Freedom Party members. Is that correct?

MR MABASO:   Yes, I knew, because Inkatha wanted me, and they had been seeking me for a very long time. They wanted me to join so that I can be part of amabuto. We were still young at the time so I knew that the attack on the homestead was actually aimed at myself. I am the one who was targeted. I had fled at the time.

MR SHANE:   Now, regarding the killing of Stephen Radebe. Is it correct that before the ANC was unbanned, and during the 1980's, this person Stephen Radebe was known to you?

MR MABASO:   Yes, I knew him, but I didn’t know him for the 80's. I started knowing him from the 90's when we started getting involved in politics, following different organisations. That’s when I started to know him insofar as his membership or affiliation. He’s also one person with whom we played dice, and the grounds, we were playing soccer. I knew what he was doing, or about what he was doing, for a long time.

MR SHANE:   When you say you knew what he was doing, what do you mean? What was he doing? What are you referring to?

MR MABASO:   First of all, he was a member of Inkatha. Secondly, he was an inyanga of Inkatha, and an informer of Inkatha. And he’s one person who used to provide them with ‘ntelesi’ on their attacking sprees or going out to shoot a person. Equally he was trusted, loyal to Inkatha in this, and what I can say, one thing that I still remember, something that happened, something that I witnessed, he cut somebody’s private parts, a person who was alleged to be an Ikosa who had alighted from a taxi, and he cut his private parts after he was shot. That is one thing that I witnessed him doing. He also used to give them ‘ntelezi’ when they went out to attack Polla Park.

CHAIRPERSON:   What is ntelezi?

MR MABASO:   Ntelezi is a medicine, a kind of medicine that one would use going out to attack, so that the targets should get drunk and not see what’s happening, and to protect oneself against bullets in a war situation, and one would easily come back safe.

MR SHANE:   Is it also correct that you, or they tried to, or including Stephen, tried to get you, force you to join the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MABASO:   Not myself alone. He was not forcing us, but when we were playing soccer or dice at Madondo park, at Penduka, he used to convince us, and in our case it was not easy for us to defend the ANC or ANC/PAC. We would keep quiet most of the time, and he used to involve Inkatha in his topics, saying how Inkatha can help people in whatever was happening, but then he was not compelling us, he was trying to influence us to attend meetings.

MR SHANE:   Is it correct that the deceased ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Why do you think that the Inkatha Freedom Party was so interested in obtaining your membership? Where would they have got the information that you would be an appropriate member?

MR MABASO:   It was not only myself. There is also the situation where any person who resided there, it was not only myself. Any one boy who resided at Penduka was sometimes forced. Some of them were sjambokked and beaten up with knobkerries, forced to attend meetings and mornings, and we would escape by way of staying indoors, and we would be beaten up. The one thing that they wanted, was that we should defend Ngcala in case it is attacked. That is Ngcala or Polla Park. They wanted us to take the forefront in the defence of these two areas. There is also many other amaZulu who had come from Natal, who were recruiting us. Some of them came to us with promises that we should shoot, Inkatha, they would give us firearms. And one other thing is that I stayed opposite the hostel gate, and therefore it was easy for us to, or easy for them to see whatever move we were making.

CHAIRPERSON:   I appreciate your modesty, but it would appear that they took special interest in you. You yourself associate the attack on your family home to their quest to acquire your membership. Where would they have found out that you would be a prized member? Who would have told them that? That Mr Mabaso is a good person to get as a member. Who do you think?

MR MABASO:   I have no knowledge for now, but they got information from their informers to the effect that we have an AK, and that we were planning to defend the community against Inkatha, because Inkatha had already harassed people quite a lot, and we were working, or coming across dead bodies every day. Young children were no longer scared of dead corpses or dead bodies. Maybe they managed to get information to that effect, because I was active insofar as gathering money is concerned, to buy AK-47.

MR SIBANYONI:   So when they attacked your family house, you were already a member of the MK?

MR MABASO:   Not exactly the MK. I’m talking about SDU’s. I was a member of the SDU’s. I was a year old within the SDU and I was no longer residing at the homestead, I had moved, but my parents had remained behind. And the parents, or should I say the boys in that area, most of them had left that area.

MR SHANE:   Are you a Zulu?

MR MABASO:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   That factor that you’re a Zulu, that would have made you acceptable to the Inkatha Freedom Party because that was primarily at that time a Zulu organisation.

MR MABASO:   Yes, I would say it is an organisation of amaZulu, but then there are many people who are amaZulu who did not join the IFP. They actually wanted us to join the IFP because we were boys and we were the youth. They thought it would be easy for us to get hold of AK-47's to defend the IFP. My being an umZulu insofar as the TRC is concerned, I would say we are divided into two. We have amaZulu A and amaZulu B. There are those who come from Natal who are referred to amaZulu A, and we from the township are referred to as amaZulu who are not in line with them. There is a difference.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) the amaZulu B?

MR MABASO:   Yes, insofar as this whole thing is concerned we are amaZulu B because we speak a different isiZulu. It is different from that of a person who comes from Durban, Umlazi or Natal.

MR SHANE:   Now, can you explain the circumstances which led to the killing, or the murder, of Stephen Radebe.

MR MABASO:   As I have already indicated that everyone knew that Stephen is involved somewhere. Let me just confine myself to Stephen. Everybody knew what Stephen was. We were at, or in the office one evening having supper with others who patrolled. Myself as in charge of, issued an order to the effect that he should be fetched, so that he could be questioned about his activities as to where he stands, because we were not sure of his stance. We have different departments and we also had our own intelligence department which would take care of anything pertaining to intelligence. I’m sorry, are we talking about Stephen or Beki?

MR SHANE:   We’re talking about Stephen Radebe.

MR MABASO:   Yes, Stephen Radebe was then fetched. I issued an order to some of our comrades to the effect that they should fetch him up, fetch him, bring him so that we could question him about his activities, and try to get the reasons thereof. We brought him to office that is based at Nkosi Street. Some of our fellow comrades left, I think 20 of us remained, and other were still outside eating. The time was about the patrol time of the evening.

We asked him about things that we knew he was doing, and he admitted, you know, our brother admitted even to the cutting of private parts, and something else that he did, that I did not know, he said that he was involved in an attack at Polla Park in 1991, where four people died. He said he too was involved, giving the, ‘ntelezi’. In other words he agreed or admitted to many things that he did within the IFP and lastly he ended up saying that we should forgive him because he did not know what he was doing, and he apologised to us that he is an Inkatha IFP and we are ANC people and he knew that we are going to kill him, he wanted us to forgive him. Unfortunately, everybody who was present whether it was a mother or a woman or an older person, they would have killed him because they were doing many things and we were seeing these things happening as a community at Penduka. I as a commander of Slovo did not have a choice, I therefore had to issue an order to the effect that he should be killed.

We took him and we brought along an AK-47 and a handgun. We went to Nkatiswe grounds. One of our comrades shot at him and I too shot him. I am the one who issued the order. I partook in his killing.

MR SHANE:   Who else partook in his killing? Who are the comrades that you are referring to, that took part in the killing?

MR MABASO:   Mzwake, Ernest Buthelezi, he is the one with whom I was involved in this matter.

MR SHANE:   And did he also fire shots at Stephen?

MR MABASO:   Yes, he too fired shots, and I later fired shots.

MR SHANE:   You, what kind of weapon did you use?

MR MABASO:   A palm gun.

MR SHANE:   And where did you get that weapon from?

MR MABASO:   We used to purchase these firearms from Polla Park, and Vosloo was at a shelter. We used to buy them from there, bring them to the township for use. I cannot be certain as to where these two firearms we were using came from.

MR SHANE:   Were these firearms stored in your, in the house which you called the office?

MR MABASO:   Some of these firearms were kept at the office, so that in case there is an attack from behind where the office was. You see most of the time the Inkatha people did not come on their own. They would be delivered by Caspirs so that most of the time it would happen that there would be killings at or behind us where we were not observant. So that we wanted to have a situation where we could easily prevent such attacks from happening, and I used to order that each one of our people have their firearms within their group. I had seven groups. All of these groups had their own firearms, or should I say there was one firearm per group.

MR SHANE:   And obviously none of your comrades had licences to possess these weapons.

MR MABASO:   No, no-one had a licence except for our chairman who had a licensed 357. He’s the only one I knew to have been having a licence. He used to say to us that in case we lose one of our comrades and we had to bury him, he used to use that firearm where we were burying some of our comrades. He used it for gun salutes during funerals.

MR SHANE:   Who was this person?

MR MABASO:   I only know his surname. Mr Mazibuko.

MR SHANE:   Were you the first person to shoot Stephen Radebe, or ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Does it matter?

MR SHANE:   Actually not Mr Chairman. Now, what happened after Stephen Radebe was shot? What happened, do you know what happened to his body? Do you have any knowledge? What did you do after the shooting?

MR MABASO:   We shot him and then we departed to - We left and we took these firearms back for storage. I think we stored them three houses away from the office, so that I had to issue out orders for patrols. We continued with the patrols, and the following day on observation I noticed that there were people who were sitting around the dead person. In our cases black people, in the event of a person dying, the family would come and sit around the dead body. And I noticed that these are the people who are so-called Umdwembe. We used to use this name referring to Inkatha people, so that we could easily identify them if, in case we came across them. I asked them questions, they didn’t answer me, they cried instead, and I left.

MR SHANE:   Now Stephen, as you said, Stephen Radebe was a person known to you who used to take part in recreational activities with you, like playing dice, as you said. Did you know any members of his family?

MR MABASO:   No. I don’t know a single member of his family.

MR SHANE:   Now we are dealing with the other murder that you’ve applied for amnesty, that is Beki Khanyile. Is this the same person that Vusi Mbatha murdered and applied for amnesty yesterday? Are we referring to the same deceased?

MR MABASO:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   And is it correct that this person Beki Khanyile was murdered on the same day as Stephen Radebe was murdered?

MR MABASO:   That’s correct. Beki Khanyile was the first one to be killed.

MR SHANE:   Can you please explain the circumstances as to how he was murdered.

MR MABASO:   It is the same with Stephen. I’ve indicated that I was, that I was on patrol. It was supper time. Other had to have their supper, and others were expected to go on patrol whilst others were having supper. We all knew him. We all knew them. Everybody and old women and aged women and old men and everybody knew these people, knew their activities. I came back to the office. I was in charge of the entire operation and I suggested that he too, or should I say Beki, should be fetched, himself being the first one. And the intention with reference to Beki was that we wanted to ask him questions and use him for our intelligence at the same time. We wanted to use him after he had given us all the information. He was involved in so many things. Things that we did not know, and he told us about those things that day. And as I, we were asking him, I said to him, if he tells the truth I will make sure that nothing befalls him. I knew Beki being a hit squad driver, around...(indistinct) in 1990 right up to 1993. Beki then confessed to the incident of the 18th August 1990 in Polla Park where 12 people died. He was a driver during that incident, and he also referred to the Sam Ntuli incident who was chairperson of the Tokoza branch of the civic association, Sam who was killed. Beki also confessed that he was involved when the memorial service was attended on Thursday people were about to go past the hostel. You had to go through three hostels to reach Sam Ntuli’s house, and people had to go back to their house to toyi toyi to pay their last respects before the funeral. 12 people died on that day and he was part of helping others. Beki was therefore the driver of the hit squad that was operational that day. And he also referred to incidents where Nthabazimbi tavern was attacked or a tavern at Nthabazimbi was attacked. One of the people who were victims of the attack is confined to a wheelchair, but then importantly it was the driver of the hit squad members. And I also observed a number of things apart from this evidence. And these things were hurting, touching to the heart, because I could have easily said he should go back and serve as an intelligence but that was not an appropriate idea at that time. I therefore had no choice so that I issued an order that he be killed.

MR SHANE:   The civic leader that you called Sam, that is in fact the late Sam Ntuli, is that correct?

MR MABASO:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Right, and after apologising, saying he’s sorry, you, what did you feel?

MR MABASO:   Yes he apologised profusely. I was supposed to be sensitive towards his apology, but because we had been harassed and we had suffered a lot, so that we no longer had mercy, we no longer cared, we no longer cared about everything, we had lost heart. And anybody who was operating within the IFP could not have survived, and therefore I issued this order after his plea. He cried pleading with us, but then because of the things that he did, remembering the many people who died on Sam Ntuli’s memorial service, these were old people who were shot simply because they were wearing Mandela T-shirts.

CHAIRPERSON:   You say that you knew what the history of both these deceased’s were, or was. Correct?

MR MABASO:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   You knew that they were IFP activists that are getting up to all this nonsense.

MR MABASO:   Yes, fully.

CHAIRPERSON:   What was the purpose of speaking to them, getting them to admit issues, things?

MR MABASO:   That was the procedure. A person had to be questioned first. Given, to be given an opportunity to speak for himself. We didn’t want to do something and only later on discover that we were wrong. We wanted to make sure which organisation a person belonged to in terms of membership cards and things like that. These people used to go around carrying membership cards of their organisations, and some of the cards that we used to come along in the houses were IFP cards. We then asked him questions. We also asked him questions because he was a township boy. He didn’t come from Natal or Transkei, or an outside area. He was a person from Gauteng, a township boy. We therefore had to give him a chance.

CHAIRPERSON:   What would have happened had he said, no, what you’re suggesting, or what he’s being accused of, is not true?

MR MABASO:   May the question please be repeated.

CHAIRPERSON:   What would have happened had, during that interrogation, either or both of these victims denied what was being said to them?

MR MABASO:   I would have no choice if they denied everything, or should I say, if they denied everything and yet I knew certain things, I would issue an order to the effect that we should forgive them but use them later on. They should stick to Inkatha and only SDU members should know that we have our own intelligence within Inkatha. So that it transpired that they admitted their involvement and they admitted to these because they knew we grew up together and they knew what they were doing, and that is why I am saying that I did not have a choice. They cried very sadly, apologising profusely.

MR SHANE:   Now, can you explain how, what happened regarding the actual killing of Beki? He was taken somewhere. Will you tell the whole story of how he died.

MR MABASO:   He was shot. It’s six years ago, I cannot remember who shot first between myself Mzwake and Bashin, but we all shot. We all fired shots and we left him there. On the following morning on coming back from patrol he had been burned. We don’t know who burned him, but it was known in the township, even ‘though the order was not issued, it was known that he was an IFP member, in the event of his death he should be burned. I don’t know who burned him. I was busy doing something else, but yes, he was burned.

MR SHANE:   At which place was he actually killed? Can you give a description?

MR MABASO:   It was between Makazile and Katizwe. There is a veld in that area. It is not a long distance from the office and he was walking freely. Even if somebody could come across us one would not have noticed that somebody was under guard. He was walking freely right up to the spot where he was shot, but then I am not quite sure who fired the first shot, but yes, three of us shot, using, fired shots using AK-47.

MR SHANE:   Did all three of you use the same weapon, or did you have, each of you have your own weapons?

MR MABASO:   Some of the other firearms had been stored for later patrols. The one firearm that we used was the one that used to be kept at the office. We used the same firearm.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember how many shots you actually fired?

MR MABASO:   Plus minus two times.

MR SHANE:   At what part of the body?

MR MABASO:   I cannot recall, because he had been lying down at the time trying to stand up. He was quite a strong person. He tried to rise after he had been shot. It could have been the foot or the hand, I am not sure.

MR SHANE:   Did you know members, any members of Beki’s family?

MR MABASO:   The one person I knew was his father. I can say I know one member of the family, but I do not know the name. However I can identify the person, they used to own a dry cleaning at Madondo. It’s quite an old store but I do not remember everything. I can tell a family member. I am quite sure of the father, ‘though I’m not sure whether its the father or the grandfather.

MR SHANE:   Were there any other actions, illegal actions besides that what you’ve mentioned now, that you took part in?

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you answer that question. Are you ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER:   May the question please be repeated.

CHAIRPERSON:   Before it’s repeated I’m asking Mr Shane, are you quite sure what answer you’re going to get.

MR SHANE:   Sir we have discussed it. It would have been, it would be of a general nature, general defence, but we’ve actually dealt with that, the possession of the weapons, everything relates to these acts.

CHAIRPERSON:   You see, if you get an answer for which application for amnesty has not been made, or cannot some way be covered by what has been submitted, then we can’t deal with it. And I may as well add that I think you sufficiently dealt with the generality of his status as commander of that unit.

MR SHANE:   Thank you sir. Have you got anything that you wish to say to the families of both deceaseds’, Stephen and Beki?

MR MABASO:   Yes. What I can say is this. Because of the apartheid regime in those times we were led to fight as black people. We killed ourselves, whereas there were other people who had infiltrated the black communities, ‘though we are not sure whether there was third force involved or something else, but I hope now during this new dispensation people will not be used to kill their own people. I would like to apologise to the parents of the two gentlemen where, of which I was involved in the killings. I apologise. I also want to apologise to the committee that is here, but I was forced to do whatever, because of the situation, and my parents also died and I don’t know their killers but I knew very well that the Inkatha people have killed them. I was forced, it’s not that I was taken by anger to the Khanyile families and the others, the apology is coming from the bottom of my heart. I hope this will never happen again, ‘though I knew very well that the elections are coming because all this happened just after Chris Hani’s death and just before the elections. But I hope such things will never happen again. I’ll try to avoid such things as the former commander if I see that there are some attacks that are imminent. If Beki’s family is here I would like to apologise ‘though I fail to go to their house and apologise. I did not know what their response would be. I want to apologise again and I hope that even the Truth Commission would forward my request to the family of Stephen and Beki.

My request is this, I don’t know what to say at the moment, but the major thing is I would like to be granted amnesty as a person who confessed.

I know that no-one knew what happened except the members of the SDU. No-one knew that we killed Stephen. We used to cover up for one another and knew very well that even the Commission, the Committee and the police wouldn’t know about that incident because we used to cover up for one another. I would like to be granted amnesty because that was not my intention to be involved in that war, but I was trying to protect the community that I loved so much. I apologise deeply. Thank you.

MR SHANE:   That is the evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Steenkamp?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, my question to you is, did you discuss the questioning and the possible killing, of both Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, with any of the political leadership before they were killed? The people you mentioned. Please like Mr Duma Nkosi, Louis Sibeko, Mr Sieyephe, Ms Ngubu, Mr Mbatha. Do you understand the question?

MR MABASO:   Yes, I understand the question. We did not discuss that. I want to explain this clearly. We used to meet with de Marcos and the others for development and get advise from them so that we can get guidelines as to use. They were not that much involved in killing, because if they were there they would try and stop us. We did not discuss that matter. According to the plan, Beki was going to be killed, whether he was questioned or not, but he was going to be killed. But because of the situation I just decided that Beki should be questioned. If I, he was going to be killed without any interview, but I decided that this is a good thing to question him and he also gave us his views, he told us about his views, and he apologised. I’m not sure if you are satisfied about, I’m not sure if you are satisfied with that answer.

ADV STEENKAMP:   My question basically is, are you then saying that none of these people were aware, whatsoever, about the decision you took, am I right?

MR MABASO:   Yes, they knew nothing. There is what is called a sectional command that was under our leadership. We used to meet on Tuesdays to report the problems that we are experiencing. Not about the people who are to be attacked or the people who are to be killed or informers. In other words the central command knew nothing about that ‘cause central command wouldn’t issue orders to kill people. They wouldn’t issue such orders. They were just there to maintain the SDU’s to make the point that everything is in order. People like de Marcos were in the ANC and other people were in ASACP and the ANC youth league. All the shareholders would be present in the meeting just to handle the SDU’s to make it a point that they were disciplined and they were in line with the objectives. In the central command we were to discuss about how to handle the criminals, because we had problems that were brought by the criminals, so we wanted to removed them from the communities and SDU’s.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Can you just indicate to us, who were the people you sent to fetch Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, for the questioning? Can you tell us who these people were?

MR MABASO:   There were more than 20 or 25. I can try and count the others ...(indistinct).

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE:  Mr Mabaso, Beki and Stephen, where did you find them, in relation to where they lived. You can deal with one and then with the other one.

MR MABASO:   I was not present when they were first, I don’t know where were they, but I’m sure that they were not at the same place because the first one to be first was Beki and the second one was Stephen. I was not there in the group of people who went to get them. But as the commander I used to issue orders. I don’t know where they were first but all I know is there was first somewhere and they were brought to the office.

ADV GCABASHE:   Where were you expecting them to be found, when you gave that order?

MR MABASO:   I had some information that Beki Khanyile as at Xhaba Street. We went to Txhaba for the first time, he wasn’t there. I issued another order in December, a month after the first visit, and I told the other comrades that we have to keep quiet, keep a low profile, so that he doesn’t suspect anything. We waited for a month, I think it was December when he was fetched for the second time. He was visited for the second time.

MR SHANE:   Excuse me Mr Chairman, I’ve a request from the applicant the call of nature. He asks for a short adjournment.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: (s.u.o.)

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman there was, I think learned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Is your client okay now?

MR SHANE:   He’s fine thank you sir.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you. Thank you Chair. We were talking about Beki and Stephen, and you had indicated in your testimony that they were killed on the same day. Who was fetched or brought to you first, is one question?

MR MABASO:   Beki Khanyile was the first one.

ADV GCABASHE:   Then Beki was killed. Stephen was brought on the same day at a later time. Is this what your evidence is?

MR MABASO:   Yes, that took place after 20 to 30 minutes, Stephen was fetched.

ADV GCABASHE:   Was he fetched by the same group of SDU members, the same group that had fetched Beki?

MR MABASO:   I’m not clear about that one. Maybe there was, there were more or less than the first group. I think there were more when they went to fetch Stephen.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you. Thank you chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. You said you took, in fact there were two weapons, an AK-47 and a palm gun. Did I understand you correctly?

MR MABASO:   Yes.

MR SIBANYONI:   Now, at the killing, which weapon was used?

MR MABASO:   An AK-47 was used to kill Beki, and the second killing both weapons were used.

MR SIBANYONI:   Now amongst the people who fetched Khanyile and Beki, are there any who are your co-applicants today?

MR MABASO:   There is one of them that I was with during the killing. There are some of them here in this hall but some of us, some of them, are dead now.

MR SIBANYONI:   Who are here? Who are still here, who are still alive?

MR MABASO:   Its’ Mzwake, Telesi, Fana Makembeni, Fana Tshabango Makembeni, Jabi Macubu, Kenneth Masoga, Moses Ngcani, Sitingosi, Mandla Lukele.

MR SIBANYONI:   Now how did it happen - We heard that they were taken to the house which was used as an office. Were both of them taken to that house first, before they were taken to the veld?

MR MABASO:   As I’ve already explained we first do, we fetched the first one and we dealt with him. We went to fetch the second one. They were not fetched at the same time, but that happened during the same night.

MR SIBANYONI:   Yes what I want to know were they, each one of them, taken to the same house before taken to the veld?

MR MABASO:   Yes, that is true. They were taken to the same house and the reason for that I can say where we were so clever, just before killing the person, just before taking any action we had to question the person. We wouldn’t just, we wouldn’t kill randomly, we would use our brains and follow the right procedures. That is why both of them were brought to 1037 Khosa Street.

MR SIBANYONI:   Now after Khanyile was killed, and while Radebe was going to be fetched, where did you wait, you personally?

MR MABASO:   In the office. I was busy having my supper. It was time for patrolling so I was having my supper in that house number 1037.

MR SIBANYONI:   Lastly, I heard you saying, because everyone knew what Khanyile did, if you didn’t issue an order people would be angry with you. Were you the only person who should issue the order to kill?

MR MABASO:   In the commanding structure of Tambo Slovo there’s two of us. I was a chief commander. The person who is supposed to issue an order is myself. As I said, if I did not issue that order perhaps today I would be killed, I will be dead today instead of him. I was forced to issue an order because of his activities, things that he was involved in and my position also obliged me to issue an order. And if there were no other leader, if there were no leaders maybe he wouldn’t be questioned to, anything would just be done, that is why I was the commander.

MR SIBANYONI:   You said you are two. Who is the other one?

MR MABASO:   Moses Blangobesi. He was not present on that particular day.

MR SIBANYONI:   What is his rank compared to your position, being the highest one?

MR MABASO:   Tambo Slovo is composed of two sections, Tambo and Slovo were under Penduka section because they were in Penduka. That other person was a leader of Tambo section, was a leader of Tambo but we were combined, we were one, and we would command because we were under the commanding structure. If he issues a command during my absence he reports that, he would report that to me, and I would do the same.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:   You said Stephen was an informer. That was one of the problems you had with him.

MR MABASO:   Yes, he was an informer. He was also an inyanga, that was protecting the Inkatha impis.

CHAIRPERSON:   To whom would he report his information?

MR MABASO:   David Mazibuko was one of them but he had a lot of people that he used to report to but the person that I knew that we used to play dice with was David Mazibuko who was later involved and he was the cause of the people’s displacement at Penduka and he is the one that wrote the people letters to vacate Penduka within seven days so that they could take over and occupy the houses and take their furnitures. Even David Mazibuko had his own leaders, but I don’t know them.

CHAIRPERSON:   Maybe I don’t understand, you say - You see, as I understand your evidence, Stephen informed somebody, some group, or some party, or some institution, about other people. I just want to find out what the nature of his information would be, and to whom he would make such reports about other people.

MR MABASO:   He used to report to David Mazibuko. That’s the one that I know who was Inkatha, who is Inkatha youth brigade now, and things that I know, I remember he used to confess about our meetings as youth from Tambo section, before displacement, as we wanted to form the SDU’s and in order to get, or to purchase AK-47. The information leaked and we had to held the meeting at different venues, and the intelligence of the SDU’s, there three departments in the SDU’s we had the department of intelligence and the logistics and other department. Stephen used to forward such information and the comrades to be attacked. One gentleman died through Stephen’s information. The gentlemen was from Selby Street but I cannot remember his name but I think the other comrades can remember his name.

CHAIRPERSON:   You, from your evidence it seems to me that there is brought into sharp focus the issue of cultures, as followed by what is known as Zulu people and what is known as Xhosa people. Do I understand you correctly?

MR MABASO:   I do not understand you.

CHAIRPERSON:   When you testified, it seems to me that you were talking about Zulu people from Natal and elsewhere, and those that I assume are not Zulu people, for example Xhosa, there are differences and during these fights that issue was brought into sharp focus. Did I understand you correctly?

MR MABASO:   I do not understand. I understand about the Zulus coming from Natal, but I do not understand the other parts of your question. Will you please explain further.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why was it important that Zulu people, as it was put to you and I assume it was your instructions therefore, that Zulu people were attached to the IFP? Or so it was perceived.

MR MABASO:   After Mandela’s release from prison there was a fight in Tokoza, the Zulus were fighting the Xhosas. They wouldn’t kill anyone else, they would only kill the Xhosas. And the people who was not a Zulu in the Xhosa community would be killed. The fight started there between the Xhosas and Zulus up to a certain stage whereby the IFP and ANC then the Zulus were falling under the IFP because they were residing at the hostels and I believe that there were other Zulus who were against the IFP but for the fact that they were staying at the hostel and everyone in the hostel nationwide would be regarded as an IFP member. So people would be forced to fall under IFP as long as they were staying in the hostels.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now that’s what I was referring to. Now coupled with that, during the last section of your testimony, you also expressed the hope that we as black people should not repeat what has happened again, and fight with each other, kill each other. Did I understand you correctly?

MR MABASO:   Yes, you understood me correctly, that is what I said because the reason for the war was the apartheid regime. I’m also happy that I contribute to the new South Africa against the apartheid. I mean if I didn’t contribute even you Mr Pillay were not sitting there, but I’m sorry for the family of Stephen and Beki, for harm them, but I’m not feeling sorry for defending the country and defending the people of this country contributing to the apartheid, so thanks for that.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did I understand you correctly, you were saying as I understand your evidence, that our people should not allow themselves to be used with all these dirty tricks again?

MR MABASO:   Yes, they are not supposed to allow that, they are not supposed to be used but I think because of the situation and poverty that was prevailing at the time and the unemployment that was so high, if you promise a black person, a person money he can do anything, but I think the people who were involved in the fight we can try and prevent that kind of a situation, but I don’t know how will we prevent that if there is a fire I’m involved. But I don’t think it is a wise idea for me to go and purchase an AK-47 in order to kill people because we are in the, a new, I beg your pardon the government of national unity in the new South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON:   You see you, we’re coming to elections again very soon. Do you think it’s wise for our people not to have learned from what has happened before, and so thereby allow themselves to be bought over to create all these things?

MR MABASO:   The issue of the election is two fold. First of all the violence started before, long before the elections, and it went on and on after the announcement of elections, after the date the 27th of April was mentioned. That is when the people got the opportunity to use the people to kill the larger population who were to partake during the registration. Perhaps now such things will not happen because some of the people were worried that they will lose power and they were worried that the black people were there to defend their own country and win back the power. Because of the situation that has happened now, the situation that is brought about this new government and ANC has done a lot of things I think it’s the people who were used they’ve got their own jobs now, they are working now, it won’t be easy for violence to be used again. I’m not sure about Tokoza but I think the registration process is on right now and even the no-go areas are no longer like that. I went to register at Madondo where the place used to be a no-go area. I don’t feel free if I walk there, but I went there for registration that I’m prepared to contribute in trying to prevent violence.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now in your evidence also you are saying that some of these firearms that were used in your activities were purchased in Polla Park. Surely these were not recognised dealers in firearms? This was gun running, not so?

MR MABASO:   Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Tell me, is this still available, this facility? To buy guns illegally. I tell you why I ask and maybe you must consider your answer in the context of your other answer, where you said in those days, and I can understand why that was so, that offences committed by certain people were covered up by the community. Now if there is gun running today, this policy of covering up, would that still be in place in respect of illegal gun running?

MR MABASO:   I don’t think so. I don’t think the community would do such cover ups like before, because I have been using a firearm for several years and I was never arrested because the community used to cover up and the SDU’s would do the same. I’m not sure that the firearms, the gun running, is still existing, but the way I see things, the Mozambique border is always on guard and the guns would be coming from Mozambique. I think there is some reduction now in the gun running of, in that gun running. It’s only the people who use them, but as former SDU members we don’t think that it is a good idea for us to purchase firearms because there is no need for that we’ve got police, community policing forum and the community ...(indistinct) that was established out of the SDU’s and it’s dealing with stability in the communities. If there were such facilities they would find out. We also as a community we help the police to arrest the criminals in the community. I’m not sure if that facility is still available.

CHAIRPERSON:   One last aspect I want to cover with you. It is perhaps a sensitive issue, but I need to know what your attitude would be. When you killed these two deceased, how did you feel yourself?

MR MABASO:   As I’ve already explained that the heart, I did not have the heart. I felt nothing. I was not even guilty. Whatever I feel it’s now I’m thinking for Beki’s family and Stephen because they have lost I had lost and I know there’s always a gap when someone dies but at that time I did not have a problem. If it was possible I would kill even ten people because I did not have a heart at that time. I was hurt because of my parents that were killed. I did not have a heart. I was going to do whatever so as to protect myself.

CHAIRPERSON:   I understand that maybe at the time you were acting as a soldier, or something like a soldier, but even soldiers sometimes, long time after the incident, are affected by it, and maybe need help, and many people have gone through it. I’m asking you are you one of those that can handle it, or what is the position, or do you know of any other people who perhaps need assistance?

MR MABASO:   I think there are people who need assistance, things like counselling for a lot of things. I do not have a problem as a person. I don’t have nightmares, I have nothing, because I am sure that what I did, I know very well that it’s not a good thing to kill, God is against that, but I know that God his hand was on my side, that is why I don’t have a problem. I can cope today, that I think I need some counselling. I might think that I need no counselling now, but I later realise that I am not coping. I might think that I’m coping but I know that other people do need counselling because they used to see dogs feeding on dead bodies and they used to see a lot of dead bodies. Dead bodies, as a human being that has got a serious effect.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane have you got any questions?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE:   Just one last aspect Mr Chairman. Can you remember the 10th of May 1997, that was the day of the deadline for filing your application for amnesty. Do you remember that day?

MR MABASO:   Yes that was the deadline. That was the day when I filled, when we filled in the forms. The SDU’s from Tambo and Slovo section.

MR SHANE:   Where did you fill in your forms?

MR MABASO:   That was at Mapanzela Primary School on a Saturday.

MR SHANE:   Was it yourself and numerous other members of SDU’s together completing forms?

MR MABASO:   Yes, all the SDU members who were involved in offences that took place before, all of us were there filling in the forms, and we were divided according to incidents, according to separate incidents.

MR SHANE:   Were you assisted in this by officials from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

MR MABASO:   Yes, we were assisted. We were assisted and I would like to thank the people who gave us that assistance and even today they are still helping us.

MR SHANE:   Now, you have already told the learned Commissioners that Mzwake Buthelezi was involved in the two murders for which you’ve applied for amnesty.

MR MABASO:   Yes, in this two cases that I’ve mentioned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Was he there when you people were filling in forms?

MR MABASO:   Yes, he was sitting next to me and three of us filled in the forms. It was myself, Vushi Basinbata and Mzwake Ernest Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane there are issues relating to two other people, now I don’t know their names. Will you file a similar question in respect of those two names?

MR SHANE:   Certainly, besides Mzwake, or let’s dealing with Mzwake first. You saw him filling in a form, is that correct?

MR MABASO:   Yes, I saw him, because we were advising each other, reminding ourselves, reminding one another about the incidents. We were discussing and I saw him, I’m a witness to that he filled in the form, he applied for amnesty. And I’m the one who went to fetch him where he was, I wanted him to come and apply for amnesty. He knew nothing about this process. I explained everything to him and on Saturday we filled in the forms.

MR SHANE:   And do you know what happened to your form after you filled in your application? Who did you give it to?

CHAIRPERSON:   I don’t know if he is able to say how those forms were processed afterwards. Let’s get onto those other two names summarily.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I am also unaware of the other names that - We won’t, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Irrelevant, okay.

MR SHANE:   If I can leave it at that, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Steenkamp maybe you can ask those questions.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman as far as I am concerned, and I will beg leave maybe if I’m just waiting for some detail regarding the other two applicants. As far as I understand they’re not directly involved in the specific incident. I doubt very strongly if this applicant will be able to tell us, but if you will allow me just one second I will just get the correct details of these applicants. Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman the position as far as I understand is that there was an application form, or two application forms, missing. The one application form apparently is from this applicant. I’m not aware if my learned colleague is aware of that. I take it that can be sorted out and taken care by himself. The other application form is the application form of the applicant who was stood down yesterday Mr Chairman, it was Mr Victor Mbatha. It was different Mbatha Mr Chairman but it seems that there are no people who are available here whose applications are missing. It’s just the question of application forms, they filled in more than one application form. But what I suggest Mr Chairman, we’ll get the correct details the ...(indistinct) stood down. I’m informed that this applicant will not be able to assist us in that regard. Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV STEENKAMP:   I’ve nothing further for this applicant Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:   I hope by lunchtime those we are complaining about these things are able to give us proper information. We’re not here to trace things. I’m going to adjourn for 10 minutes for that purpose, before we excuse this witness.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman, insofar as this applicant before you, there is nothing further that we, that is his case, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   And no further applications?

MR SHANE:   No further applications Mr Chairman. In the circumstances I would ask the Commission to excuse this applicant, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Mabaso you’re excused. Thank you.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman the next applicant is Mr Sidney Nkosi. However, before he is called, I’ve been requested to address you on a certain problem, which I submit sir might have a serious impact on the smooth running of these hearings.

Sir on Thursday last week all the legal representatives, together with Mr Andre Steenkamp and other officials of the TRC met at TRC offices, and it was in fact undertaken that transport would be arranged for the applicants to be brought here. And the applicants needed that as they are all unemployed and cannot afford the transport costs which would be on a daily basis. Now I am informed, Mr Chairman, that there has been a problem, the taxi drivers up to now have not been paid, they are threatening the applicants who cannot afford to pay them, and they have clearly stated that they will certainly not take them back home today, or bring them back here again. Mr Chairman this could also lead to further violence because we all know how volatile the taxi industry is in this regard.

I am also informed, Mr Chairman, the secretary of the Amnesty Committee, Advocate Martin Coetzee, has said that they cannot give any assistance to the applicants and will only do so if you, Mr Chairman, order them to do so. I cannot see anything in Act 34 of 1995 which authorises you or empowers you to make such an order, but I am asked to, because Advocate Coetzee says he needs a directive from yourself, I am requesting you Mr Chairman to make such a directive so that this, these proceedings can proceed. It is, I would also mention that there was a request by member of parliament for the Tokoza, or who represents, from the Tokoza area, Mr Duma Nkosi, he requested that these hearings in fact be heard in Tokoza because, Mr Chairman, the Tokoza community that are affected by these hearings, it seems that they haven’t attended and maybe the reason is the difficulty in getting to the city every day. But be that as it may, we must concern ourselves with the applicants and their getting here, and I’d ask you to make an order. Thank you sir.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt. Maybe just a small amendment to what my learned colleague indicated, and that the minutes of the pre-trial or the pre-meeting will, pre-hearing will reflect this. The position was that the logistical officer of the Commission is in charge of logistical arrangements and such an issue will obviously have to be made with the logistical director or the logistical person responsible for this hearing. As far as my knowledge serves me no such undertaking was given that the TRC will in fact, as a point of principle, be responsible for the logistical arrangements of the applicants.

However, the indication was, for myself, that the logistical officer will make such arrangements and decisions like this will obviously have to be taken by the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee, or by the Chairperson of the specific hearing. Thank you Mr Chairman.

...(blank on tape)

CHAIRPERSON:   I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees to attend this hearing on behalf of the applicants. Mr technician I want what I’m going to say now to come over the loudspeakers to the public, not as per headphones.

...(blank on tape)

I want to break for five minutes. I want to see the Logistics Officer please.

CHAIRPERSON:   I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees for all or some of the applicants to attend this hearing. Mr Shane in this unusual application has indicated that serious problems may arise if these fees are not covered by the Commission. ...(inaudible)

I wish to point out that the fees requested is not a matter for, or covered by the rights which the applicants have. As in any other hearing either in a Court of law or tribunal, such fees are not claimable from the State. It is unfortunate that I have been told of threats or possible taxi violence should these fees not be paid. The fact of the matter is that the applicants are the applicants in this matter, and they have chosen to make the applications. The hearings have been arranged for this venue and if they wish to continue with the applications they must therefore in terms of the Act come testify. So it is for them to decide what they want to do. I am not making a ruling. These are just matters that I wish to point out, having been asked to make a decision on this matter. Mr Shane is completely correct, that I am not empowered to make a decision on those fees. I will not make such a decision. Thank you.

Yes Mr Shane?

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman, I hope that it can be resolved. We will endeavour to do our best. In the meantime I’d like to call applicant Sidney Nkosi.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt. This application will be opposed by the victims in this case. The victim who is present here is the mother of the late Mr Jabulane Nguwana, I’ll give you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you - I’ll give you an opportunity to do that Mr Steenkamp, I just want to find out from Mr Shane what page this application will be?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman on page 97 until page 103.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane you promised to give us identity numbers of the previous two applicants.

MR SHANE:   I will do so Mr Chairman. His name’s Sidney Vincent Nkosi, identity number 701129 5371 08 2.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) 97. ...(inaudible) quite different.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I see in his original application form the number seven was left out.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is this the same person?

MR SHANE:   It is indeed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you got an identity number for Mr Vusi Mbatha? You promised to have it by lunchtime.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I’m sorry, it slipped me. I will get it, I will obtain it now.

CHAIRPERSON:   There’s a lot of things slipping today. ...(inaudible) become an inconvenience Mr Shane, because every time we must refer to an old application.

MR SHANE:   Mr Nkosi what language do you prefer to use?

MR NKOSI:   Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you have any objections to the taking of the oath?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE:   Mr Nkosi, you’re applying for amnesty for the murder of one Jabulane Dube, is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   You’re also applying for amnesty for your part in an attack on the Khumalo gang.

MR NKOSI:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   Can you tell the Committee as to your membership of the Self-Defence Units, what type of member were you?

MR NKOSI:   Would you please repeat the question.

MR SHANE:   Were you an ordinary member of the Self-Defence Unit?

MR NKOSI:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   And that Self-Defence Unit was in the Slovo section?

MR NKOSI:   That is correct, Slovo section in Tokoza Gardens.

MR SHANE:   Were you not a commander in that unit?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   When did you join the Self-Defence Unit?

MR NKOSI:   In 1990, as an underground.

MR SHANE:   And you also are a member of the ANC.

MR NKOSI:   That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Just before you move on Mr Shane. Can I just get this right? Slovo section and Tokoza Gardens is that one section or two sections? I always try and differentiate between the old names and the new names.

MR NKOSI:   These are two different places.

ADV GCABASHE:   So you were active in both Slovo and Tokoza Gardens?

MR NKOSI:   That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   But you were only a commander in Tokoza Gardens?

MR NKOSI:   That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you.

MR SHANE:   And you explain to the Committee the circumstances which led you to be involved in the murder of Jabu Dube?

MR NKOSI:   Would you please repeat the last part.

MR SHANE:   Can you explain why did you get involved in the murder of Jabulane Dube?

MR NKOSI:   I am a resident of Penduka section and during the time of the violence I fled to Tokoza Gardens. That is where we started forming our own SDU’s. These SDU’s were already in existence in Slovo and other parts.

MR SHANE:   When you fled Penduka section, can you tell what happened to your home?

MR NKOSI:   I am the one who fled first.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why did you flee?

MR NKOSI:   It was on a Sunday, I was sitting outside at the gate and one IFP member came carrying a megaphone, calling us to a meeting, and we argued. From there I started insulting Inkatha, his leader Mangosuthu, or should I say Gatsha Buthelezi. He then left and came back in the company of other men. They could have been five or four if I’m not mistaken. I went into the house and they could not make out whether I was a member of the household or not, and one neighbour who was in bad terms with ourselves informed them about us. He fled to Nelspruit.

ADV GCABASHE:   Sorry, I just missed something. Your neighbour informed the IFP members that what? What did he inform them of?

MR NKOSI:   He told them that the boy that was insulting them at the gate was stays in that house, the one that was that they were staying next to, it was just the front opposite the front of the house.

MR SHANE:   Now in 1993, is that when Jabu was murdered?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember the month?

MR NKOSI:   I cannot remember the month but there was going to be a march to Inyoni Park. I’m not sure if it was the 21st of March. I cannot remember the month, but I know there was going to be a march on the 21st, that would be on a Monday and my brother was injured on the 20th.

ADV GCABASHE:   Where was the march going to?

MR NKOSI:   The march was going to Inyoni Park. It was to protest against the stability unit.

ADV GCABASHE:   Now I, we have been told of Kalanyoni as one of the residents of one of the hostels in the area. Has that got anything to do with Inyoni Park? Just help me with those two names.

MR NKOSI:   Inyoni Park is on the way, is a park next, on the way to Vosloorus.

MR SHANE:   Right, now is it correct that you had certain information that Jabu Dube was to be found in a certain tavern?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   And why, and you explain why was it so important for you to find Jabu?

MR NKOSI:   In our place of resident, Penduka, we couldn’t trust other residents, other comrades, and this person was not safe among the members of ANC.

MR SHANE:   What did you know about Jabu Dube, as being your enemy?

MR NKOSI:   Jabu was informer, IFP informer.

MR SHANE:   How did you know this?

MR NKOSI:   It happened several times he took a gun, a firearm from one of the comrades and the firearm got lost, and he’s the one who told the IFP members about there was a tavern at Madondo Street, he pointed out to the IFP members, he pointed out the ANC members to the IFP members who were in that tavern.

MR SHANE:   And did anything happen as a result of that pointing out?

MR NKOSI:   The problem started there and the other comrades are not here today, because even during the patrols at Selby Street at about ten, or between ten and eleven during the patrolling, we found the IFP members patrolling and we were on the other side of the ANC, also patrolling.

MR SHANE:   Right, now you went to a certain tavern, can you remember the name of the tavern?

MR NKOSI:   Which tavern is that?

MR SHANE:   This is the tavern where you went to look for the deceased, Jabu Dube.

MR NKOSI:   That is Blue Note, the name of the tavern.

MR SHANE:   Where is it?

MR NKOSI:   It is in Vergenoeg.

MR SHANE:   Is Vergenoeg right next to Tokoza township?

MR NKOSI:   Yes it is in Tokoza. It is in Tokoza.

MR SHANE:   Now you went to this tavern, were you alone?

MR NKOSI:   No. The other SDU members were there.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember their names?

MR NKOSI:   I cannot remember their last names but I can remember their first names.

MR SHANE:   Will you give their first names please?

MR NKOSI:   Johannes Mduduzi, Johannes and Mduduzi.

MR SHANE:   ...(inaudible) are those the only ones?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Can you just repeat that please.

MR NKOSI:   Johannes and Mduduzi.

MR SHANE:   Right, this person Beki Dube, Jabu Dube sorry, did you know him before? Was he a friend of yours?

MR NKOSI:   Yes he was once a friend of mine.

MR SHANE:   Tell what happened when you saw him in the Blue Note tavern.

MR NKOSI:   It was on a Sunday, we were at a meeting at Kathlele School. He was there in that meeting. We were going to discuss his case. We were expecting him to come and explain his position. There was a disturbance in that meeting to such an extent that that attempt was not successful. He left and he was told not to go. The decision was then taken that whenever he’s found he should be killed. Whenever he is found should be killed.

MR SHANE:   Who took that decision?

MR NKOSI:   That was taken by the commanders in a meeting.

MR SHANE:   Can you name any of the commanders.

MR NKOSI:   The first commander is no more, the second one Ncosi, I don’t know his surname.

MR SHANE:   And the one that is no more, that means dead I presume, what was his name? What was the name of the commander who is no more?

MR NKOSI:   The name of the commander was Thabo Sibeko.

...(inaudible section on tape)

MR SHANE:   So you were acting on orders ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   We didn’t get the second name.

MR SHANE:   Can you repeat the name of the commander.

MR NKOSI:   Thabo Sibeko is the name of the commander.

CHAIRPERSON:   That’s the deceased?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   What was the name of the other commander, just for completeness?

MR NKOSI:   Ncosi.

CHAIRPERSON:   Spelled

MR NKOSI:   N C O S I.

MR SHANE:   N C O N S I?

MR NKOSI:   N C O S I.

CHAIRPERSON:   Make up your minds.

MR SHANE:   Now you, when you went to the Blue Note did you have information that Jabu Dube was there?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, I had seen him there.

MR SHANE:   You had seen him there, and you had also been given orders that he has to be killed?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Explain what happened when you saw the deceased, Jabu, in the Blue Note tavern.

MR NKOSI:   I went inside the Blue Note tavern. The other group was waiting outside, SDU members, the group was waiting outside and I got inside because he knew me very well, and I called him outside. I left, we went to a circle, we took him with. We took him to a place that was behind the stadium

MR SHANE:   So in other words you went into the tavern because he knew you, he used to be your friend, and he would have left with you? Was that the reason you went into the tavern?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did he come freely?

MR NKOSI:   When we disappeared through the passage that was between the house and the fence I had already told the soldiers that the person I would appear with, they should know that that is the person. And when we appeared the comrades had already pointed him with guns.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did he come freely with you out of the tavern, or did you have to force him to come out?

MR NKOSI:   I did not force him.

CHAIRPERSON:   He came with you because you were, were a decoy? Did you make him believe that he was coming with a friend?

MR NKOSI:   He did not know that there was a plan for him when he came.

MR SHANE:   You went into the tavern alone, your other comrades who were waiting outside did not go into the tavern. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   What did you tell the deceased? What did you say to him?

MR NKOSI:   What I can remember, when I found him inside the tavern and I told him that I want to see him, he wanted to know what was it all about, but at the end he left the house with me.

MR SHANE:   And when he wanted to know what it was all about, what did you tell him?

MR NKOSI:   The soldiers were nearer and they could see what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON:   How did you manage to him out of the tavern?

MR NKOSI:   I said he used to be a friend of mine and we used to stay together at Penduka section, as I was calling him he knew he did not know, he did not know that there was a plan, but he went out of the house because he knew me and he thought we were going to discuss something outside. He did not know that there was a plan ready for him.

MR SHANE:   When you got outside, your other comrades who were with you, they also then must have seen the deceased. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE:   What happened then, with you and your comrades and the deceased?

MR NKOSI:   We took him with.

MR SHANE:   When you took him did you drag him or did he walk himself?

MR NKOSI:   He was asking for forgiveness on the way but the guns were pointed at him but we took him with.

MR SHANE:   So he walked with guns pointed at him asking for forgiveness?

MR NKOSI:   Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE:   What did he want forgiveness for?

MR NKOSI:   I won’t know because he was, I think he was also afraid because he was in that meeting that particular morning and he was told not to leave because the comrades wanted to see him after the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON:   But why would someone just ask for forgiveness without being told?

MR NKOSI:   Will you please repeat the question sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why would somebody ask for forgiveness, out of the blue, without knowing what his problem was or what he’s being accused of?

MR NKOSI:   In that situation, that war situation, when the comrades visit you with suspicions, and you feel guilty. He felt guilty that is why he was asking for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON:   How do you know that?

MR NKOSI:   Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON:   How do you know that he was feeling guilty?

MR NKOSI:   The way he was taken from that place and when the guns were pointed at him he, it was clear to him that he was going to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes but that’s not the point. He asked for forgiveness, for what? You say he felt guilty. How do you know that?

MR NKOSI:   Because he was an IFP member

CHAIRPERSON:   You’re guessing.

MR NKOSI:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   So you know that he felt guilty about being a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party and therefore he asked for forgiveness?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   When he asked for forgiveness, did you speak to him or did your other comrades speak to him, and ask him why he was seeking forgiveness? Did you find out from him what he had done that he needed to be forgiven for?

CHAIRPERSON:   That’s putting the cart before the horse, isn’t it? I would have expected them to have told him what he had done and therefore he was asking forgiveness.

MR SHANE:   With respect Mr Chairman, things, as it emerges, things don’t happen the way we would expect them to, with the greatest respect sir.

MR SHANE:   Do you know why he wanted to be forgiven? Have you got any idea?

CHAIRPERSON:   He wanted to be forgiven because he felt guilty because he was a member of Inkatha.

MR SHANE:   Did the deceased himself tell you anything that he did wrong? Not, this is now not what you thought, but what the deceased himself said to you when he was asking for forgiveness. Did the deceased not mention anything he had done that he needed forgiveness for.

MR NKOSI:   No.

MR SHANE:   You then walked with him, guns pointing at him. Where did you go?

MR SHANE:   We went to a place just behind the Tokoza stadium.

MR SHANE:   Is that near or far from the tavern?

MR NKOSI:   It was far from the tavern.

MR SHANE:   And what happened at the stadium, or outside the stadium, what happened then?

MR NKOSI:   When we arrived there, I instructed two gentlemen to shoot him.

MR SHANE:   Who were these gentlemen you instructed to shoot him?

MR NKOSI:   It was Nduduzi and Johannes.

MR SHANE:   Were they both armed?

MR NKOSI:   Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE:   With AK-47's?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, they had AK-47's.

MR SHANE:   Were you armed?

MR NKOSI:   No.

MR SHANE:   How did you order them to kill him, what did you say?

MR NKOSI:   I told them to take him, when we got behind the stadium they knew very well as they were told from the base that the person that would be brought that person should be killed. So these two boys had firearms, those are the guys that, those are the people that shot.

MR SHANE:   And they shot him on your orders?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Did you witness them shooting him?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Do you know how many shots were fired by each of your comrades who you ordered?

MR NKOSI:   No I cannot remember, but both firearms were used.

MR SHANE:   What happened after he was shot? Did you just leave the body there or what did you do?

MR NKOSI:   We went back to the bases.

MR SHANE:   And you left the body where it was lying. Is that right?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Now, how do you feel, and you say this facing the bereaved family of the deceased, how do you feel about what you did?

MR NKOSI:   I felt bad.

MR SHANE:   Did you feel bad after the incident because he was your friend? Why did you feel bad?

MR NKOSI:   It is because he was my neighbour but I had no choice, I had to do it.

MR SHANE:   So you felt bad because you killed your neighbour and you had no choice, you were doing your duty?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   And now that the family, the bereaved family of the deceased are facing you, do you have anything to say to them now?

MR NKOSI:   Yes there is something that I would like to say.

MR SHANE:   Will you say it?

MR NKOSI:   I would like to ask for forgiveness more especially his mother, the one I grew up in front of and his sisters, the whole family. I would like to ask for forgiveness.

MR SHANE:   These people that you are asking forgiveness for are people that you knew, some of them you grew up with?

MR NKOSI:   Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Now you’ve also applied for amnesty for an attack on the Khumalo gang.

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   This was also in 1993?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember the month?

MR NKOSI:   No.

MR SHANE:   You state ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   In your application you say around November 1993. Is that ?

MR NKOSI:   That could be possible but I cannot remember the month.

MR SHANE:   Can you explain what happened with your attack on the Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI:   Will you please repeat the question, sir.

MR SHANE:   Will you please explain the details of your attack on the Khumalo gang, for which you are seeking amnesty.

MR NKOSI:   Those people were harassing us at our place of residence. As we were SDU members we decided to launch attacks against the Khumalo gang. We wanted to removed Khumalo because Khumalo was harassing us.

MR SHANE:   Can you just give details? Who was this Khumalo and what was his political affiliations?

MR NKOSI:   Khumalo was a church minister and he was also a member of Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR SHANE:   How were the Khumalo gang harassing you?

MR NKOSI:   They were killing us.

MR SHANE:   When you say they were killing you, had people, can you name people who were actually killed by this gang?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   Can you give a few names to the learned Committee?

MR NKOSI:   I can remember some of them. At some stage Khumalo killed 12 people in the Tokoza community. That was New Year Eve, on the night of the New Year Eve. There is a boy from Tshabalala Street at the corner house, his name was Lucky, and one boy from Mbele family, his name was Happy, and one boy, I cannot remember the names of the others but there’s a lot of them.

MR SHANE:   What, can you describe the attack, what you did, what actually you did in this attack on the Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI:   We wanted to demolish Khumalo’s house and we wanted to kill them also.

MR SHANE:   Right, so what did you do?

MR NKOSI:   Sorry?

MR SHANE:   What did you do?

MR NKOSI:   His house was attacked, it was shot at, and the F1 bombs were used to demolish the house.

MR SHANE:   Did you use the F1 bombs yourself, or did other people use the F1 bombs?

MR NKOSI:   There was a unit that was responsible for handling the bombs, and the other were using the hammer. There was operation Shiza and operation Delisa.

MR SHANE:   And you, what did you use, just a firearm or did you use bombs and hammers?

MR NKOSI:   I was handling a firearm. I was handling a firearm. I used to carry a firearm.

MR SHANE:   And what type of firearm?

MR NKOSI:   AK-47.

MR SHANE:   Do you know if you caused any death or any injuries to members of this Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI:   No.

MR SHANE:   What you do know is that you caused damage to the house?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   Is there anything else you wish to tell the learned Commissioners about your attacks on the Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI:   How, what do you mean?

MR SHANE:   If you, you haven’t really, that is all you can tell about the attack on the Khumalo gang. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

ADV GCABASHE:   Can I just ask you, was this an attack on Mr Khumalo’s house, or was it an attack on the people who followed him, or who were called the Khumalo gang? Just help me with that.

MR NKOSI:   We wanted to destroy his followers and his house.

ADV GCABASHE:   But this particular incident, what does it relate to? To both Mr Khumalo with his people inside the house, or just a attack on the house itself irrespective of who was inside?

MR NKOSI:   The people who were staying there in the house was Khumalo and his boys and the soldiers who were safeguarding him and the other IFP members.

ADV GCABASHE:   But on that particular day, was Mr Khumalo there? Were his followers, his gang, were any members of the gang there on that day?

MR NKOSI:   They ran away.

ADV GCABASHE:   They ran away as you approached or as you attacked?

MR NKOSI:   They had information that there was an attack, that there would be an attack at the house.

ADV GCABASHE:   So by the time you attacked they had fled and you attacked the house essentially?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Now I asked you because evidence was given of this attack in the hearings last year in December and I just wanted to make sure that it’s the same incident that you’re referring to. Thank you.

MR SHANE:   Okay, now I’m showing you a photograph of a person from an identity document. Can you identify this person?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   Who is this person?

MR NKOSI:   This is Mlazi Jabulane Dube.

MR SHANE:   This is the person you murdered, or who was murdered on your orders, after he was taken from the Blue Light tavern. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE:   Are you now at peace with the members of Inkatha and the Khumalo gang, is there now peace between you?

MR NKOSI:   I won’t say so, but we are staying the IFP members, we are trying the best.

MR SHANE:   Now when you were called you were limping, it’s quite clear that your leg is injured. Can you tell how you got those injuries?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, I was shot.

MR SHANE:   When were you shot?

MR NKOSI:   It was in 1993.

MR SHANE:   Who shot you?

MR NKOSI:   I don’t know him but I know that he was an IFP member.

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman, that is evidence.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman. Just for record purposes, the person who was actually killed, this John Dube, according to the death certificate he was killed on the 6th of September 1993 and his full correct names is Winston Jabulane and I’ll spell the surname N Y O N G W A N E. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? Winston, W I N S T O N, and then Jabulane with an E Mr Chairman, and Nyongwane. This is also the person that was identified from his ID book document which was showed by, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP:   N Y O N G W A N E.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I confirm that this is the name that appears in the identity document where the photo is that was identified by the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman according to the death certificate this person. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP:   Sorry Mr Chairman I beg your pardon. According to the death certificate Mr Chairman this person was, died in Alberton, of unnatural causes on the 6th of September 1993. I think the applicant is referring only to September in his application.

Mr Chairman, the family of the late Mr Jabulane Nyongwane is present today. His mother is here, Mrs Esther Nyongwane. She is opposing the application of the applicant on the basis that the deceased was never a member of the IFP ...(indistinct). I would beg leave to as a few questions with regard to the applicant on the first instance. In the second instance Mr Chairman I would also beg leave to ask if it will be possible for Mrs Esther Nyongwane to say a few words. She wants to testify. I explained to her this is a decision that you have to make, but she instructed me to ask a few questions on the membership.

CHAIRPERSON:   We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, according to the mother of the deceased, Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, or Mr Vincent Jabulane Nyongwane, was never a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, or even a supporter. Do you have any comment on this?

MR NKOSI:   Will you please repeat the question sir.

ADV STEENKAMP:   The question’s actually quite easy. According to the family, the mother of the deceased, Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, or you call him Mr Jabulane Dube, they are saying he was never a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Do you have any comment on this?

MR NKOSI:   He was an IFP member. There’s nothing else I can say, but we had evidence. We didn’t kill them if we did not have evidence.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Can you maybe just indicate to us how did you establish that Mr Nyongwane was actually an IFP member?

MR NKOSI:   As I have already explained initially that he would be seen during the patrol during the night at Saville Street with Themba and the others, I cannot remember their names, but they were seen on that particular day and when Jabu’s firearm was taken he was also involved. He was the one who took Jabu’s firearm.

ADV GCABASHE:   Can you just clarify that for me? I’m not sure I understand you well. Jabu was seen patrolling, yes?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   He was seen patrolling with IFP members?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Did you personally see him patrolling with IFP members?

MR NKOSI:   I saw, I only saw him taking Jabu’s firearm.

ADV GCABASHE:   Now Jabu, the other Jabu, is one of your comrades, as SDU member, and that’s whose firearm was taken? Are we talking about two Jabulanes? I’m not sure I understand you.

MR NKOSI:   Yes, we have two Jabus.

ADV GCABASHE:   And you also indicated earlier that he, it’s not just one firearm that was lost, it sounds like quite a few firearms were lost by Jabu Dube. Did I understand you correctly?

MR NKOSI:   So we’re talking about one firearm going missing?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI:   Excuse me, what is the surname of this other Jabu whose firearm was taken?

MR NKOSI:   Sorry.

MR SIBANYONI:   What is the surname of the Jabu whose firearm was taken?

MR NKOSI:   Madi is the surname.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman my instructions is that the family is only opposing the fact that the applicant is saying that the deceased was an IFP member. They can’t contest the contents of the rest of the evidence, because they don’t have any first hand factual information regarding this. I’m not going to waste, with all due respect to the Chairman, any further time on this. The basic fact is, as far as the family is concerned, that the deceased was never a member of the IFP. Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE:   On the same issue, did you ask Jabu about his membership of the IFP?

MR NKOSI:   No.

ADV GCABASHE:   But you were his friend. Why didn’t you in particular go out of your way to find out whether it was true or not?

MR NKOSI:   At that particular time there was no time to question because the order was already issued, one was supposed to do his job.

ADV GCABASHE:   Did anybody else verify for you, the commander, that Jabu was indeed an IFP member?

MR NKOSI:   That was heard when there was a meeting Khatlele School.

ADV GCABASHE:   Now just help me understand this. Was this one report of one time that somebody saw Jabu with IFP members?

MR NKOSI:   On that day of the meeting, we heard that it happened one Friday he was seen entering the Penduka section and at the time the people from the other section were not allowed to get into Penduka section because the people had already vacated their houses. Jabu was seen going to his home. He was coming from work.

ADV GCABASHE:   So his parents, his mother, still lived in Penduka, and this where he was going to. Is that a correct summary?

MR NKOSI:   I am not sure that he, I am not sure whether his mother is still staying there, but I see her sometimes.

ADV GCABASHE:   Sorry, I probably didn’t express this properly. At the time Jabu was seen going to Penduka, was his mother still living in Penduka? Was his home still in Penduka? At that time, in 1993?

MR NKOSI:   I did not see his mother there but if my memory serves me well I think both his parents were there, were still there at Penduka section, if I’m not mistaken. I am not sure about that.

ADV GCABASHE:   Now, the reason I ask you this is because you have told us you were the commander and you gave the order that he should be killed. I’m really trying to find out what the basis of the order was. Why, you gave that order? You would give that order because you had certain information. Am I right, so far?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, but I was also in the meeting on a Sunday. It was the SDU meeting that was held at Khatlele School that is where the decisions were taken as to who, what people, who, what people were to be killed and amongst those names Jabu’s name was there.

ADV GCABASHE:   But as I understand your testimony, you are saying that the incident that he was, or that the members referred to, was the one time that he went into Penduka after all your comrades had moved out of Penduka. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, we were not at Penduka section at the time.

ADV GCABASHE:   What I’m just trying to find out is, were there other times that he was seen to go into what you considered to be enemy territory? Or are we really just talking about one time? This is all I’m trying to establish.

MR NKOSI:   I’ll try and explain this. There were people who would say that they did not go to Penduka, but those people would be seen entering Penduka section and they would go and visit their friends or relative at Penduka section, ‘though those people were said not to be entering that place.

ADV GCABASHE:   But you would not necessarily kill those people, because you knew that their families remained in Penduka. Or am I wrong?

MR NKOSI:   We were forced by the situation because there was a certain date that was set by the SDU’s that on such and such a date if the people were not, all the people were not at Slovo section or Tambo section, the people who would be left at the Penduka section would be regarded as Inkatha members.

ADV GCABASHE:   So you are, am I correct in saying that it is quite possible in that case that he indeed was not an IFP member and that he was just visiting his family, on the occasion that he was seen going to Penduka after the cut-off date?

MR NKOSI:   I agree and at the same time I disagree with that. It might happen that he was not a member of IFP and we did not know his movement whenever he was in that Penduka section. But when we were at Tambo Slovo he did not want to appear so we did not understand his position. We couldn’t understand his movement but the decision was taken to remove him.

ADV GCABASHE:   You couldn’t understand why he would not come and talk to you if he was indeed still one of your comrades essentially. And is this what eventually led to your decision to kill him? The fact that he wouldn’t come and talk to you about where he stood.

MR NKOSI:   I do not have evidence to that effect.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you. Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson.

You said when he was called to a meeting, or he left the meeting, when he was told that you wanted to see him, is that correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI:   At that stage he had not been told about the allegations against him, when he left. Is that so?

MR NKOSI:   It used to happen that if there was a certain suspect in a community we wouldn’t show that and indicate that something was going to be done. That particular suspect would be free just like anyone.

MR SIBANYONI:   If he didn’t leave the meeting, what was going to happen? Were you going to confront him about the allegation, or was there any action supposed to be taken against him?

MR NKOSI:   I cannot tell because if the instruction was already issued that someone is supposed to be killed, all the soldiers knew that he was supposed to be killed. I cannot say anything about his safety, whether if he did stay he was to be safe or not. I cannot say anything about that.

MR SIBANYONI:   So if we understand you correctly, there is no stage where these allegations were put to him, until the time the action was taken?

MR NKOSI:   He had other comrades that were telling him and they told him that he is no longer trustworthy among the comrades. His only alternative was for him to come forward and explain his position.

MR SIBANYONI:   So the basis of the suspicion that his is an IFP member was solely on the ground that he visited Penduka section?

MR NKOSI:   That was not all, the people who harassed, or who were harassing us in some way, that if one would be seen during the times while the people were still staying at Penduka and people would be seen at the meetings or in taverns. He had Zulu friends and other comrades turned against him because they could see that this person had another agenda that was different from ours. That’s when the people started to distance themselves from him. We heard that from other comrades that they could no longer trust him because of his movement.

MR SIBANYONI:   At which section was this tavern situated?

MR NKOSI:   It was at Penduka section.

MR SIBANYONI:   Was it frequented both by IFP people as well as people who were not IFP?

MR NKOSI:   The tavern was frequented by us, but because of the situation that was, it became apparent to us that it was not safe for us to go there, so we decided to stay away from that tavern.

MR SIBANYONI:   At that stage when you went to fetch him nobody but only IFP members frequented that tavern?

MR NKOSI:   I thought you were asking me about the tavern that was in Penduka section. The tavern where, the tavern where he was fetched, it is far away from this tavern that is in Penduka. This other tavern he was first at Vergenoeg but the other one was at Penduka section. I’m not sure if you understand.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were commander of the area?

MR NKOSI:   What area?

CHAIRPERSON:   Slovo section and the Tokoza Garden section.

MR NKOSI:   I was a soldier at Slovo section, at Tokoza Gardens I was a commander. I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now where this murder of Jabulane took place, was that an area in which you would have been a commander?

MR NKOSI:   Behind the stadium, I’m not sure whether the stadium falls under Vergenoeg or Tokoza Gardens. But Tokoza Gardens is on the other side.

CHAIRPERSON:   In any case you assumed the commander’s position when you were the one that gave orders for him to be shot. Whether you were entitled to do so or not, you did so. Not so?

MR NKOSI:   Will you please repeat your question, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Whether you were entitled by your status as a commander or not, in that area, you did in fact give the order for him to be shot. Not so?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   So you assumed at the very least the position or the rank of the commander in those circumstances when he was shot. Correct?

MR NKOSI:   I was a former Self-Defence Unit from Tokoza Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON:   Look I don’t know if we’re misunderstanding each other or not. On what basis were you entitled to give the command for him to be shot? Ordinary soldiers don’t do that, or they can’t do that.

MR NKOSI:   I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens. I was working for Penduka, Penduka section, because there was no need to leave the firearms at Tokoza Gardens whereas the battlefield was Penduka section.

Can I go on?

As I was in Tokoza Gardens I was also a subordinate at Tambo Slovo section, as a person who was coming from Penduka section. But I would use the firearms from Tokoza Gardens at Tambo Slovo section.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well answer this simple question for me. Were you entitled to give the order for ...(intervention)

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Dube to be killed?

MR NKOSI:   Yes because I was also instructed so I had to issue an instruction.

CHAIRPERSON:   So you did no in your capacity as a commander. Do I understand you correctly?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   And he would not have been shot without your order to do so?

MR NKOSI:   He was going to be killed anyway.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now then, there you first had to order it before it was done. Correct?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now we’ve had a witness here, previous applicant, Victor Mabaso, do you know him? - Muchacho.

MR NKOSI:   Yes, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON:   And he testified to us here this morning that you know, it was almost policy to find out and make sure, especially about the position of those that were intended to be killed. Did you hear him say so?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   And therefore there were sort of enquiries held before decisions to kill were taken.

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now I just want to ask wasn’t Jabulane asked whether he was a member of Inkatha or not, before he was killed?

MR NKOSI:   The reason for that I do not know, but I was given an instruction to kill him, whether he was asked or not, but the instruction was issued.

CHAIRPERSON:   At that meeting?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   How long before he died was that meeting, or did that meeting take place?

MR NKOSI:   That, he was killed on the night of the meeting. I cannot remember the time.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was the meeting on the same day?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   And when you were in the tavern, when you lured him out, why didn’t you ask him then, Mr Dube, are you a member of Inkatha?

MR NKOSI:   Some of us were so impatient, we did not have time to ask questions. We would act according to instruction and we would ask afterward, we would ask questions after the action.

CHAIRPERSON:   But in your case you were commander. Not so?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were sent in there to lure him out of the tavern. Would you not have been able to, had you asked him and he said no, would you not have been able to go to your superiors and say, look but we made a mistake, this man is not an IFP member? Can’t we discuss the matter again? He’s willing to come to us.

MR NKOSI:   There was no time for that.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why?

MR NKOSI:   As I have explained initially, during those times we did not have time to question. One would be lucky to be questioned, to get that opportunity. Because some people wouldn’t be questioned. He was so unfortunate that no questions were asked.

CHAIRPERSON:   And that decision to kill him was taken without him being present?

MR NKOSI:   The decision was taken after he had left the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON:   And was he asked whether he was a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, at that meeting?

MR NKOSI:   No, he was not asked.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was he spoken to?

MR NKOSI:   The other boys with him who wanted to bring him closer during his case.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was he given an opportunity to confirm or deny his membership of Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR NKOSI:   They were still busy with the others inside the office. They were coming in one by one. He was also in the list after the others.

CHAIRPERSON:   So why was he then killed without being given an opportunity to say what his position was?

MR NKOSI:   Maybe the commander who issued that instruction would be in a better position to respond to that question, but he is no more. I do not have any answer to that question.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were there.

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you carried out that instruction through another instruction. Not so?

MR NKOSI:   There was a lot of us in that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON:   You have indicated that you are seeking forgiveness from the members of the deceased’s family. Do you recall that?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you made any attempt to visit them in order to talk to them and make peace with them?

MR NKOSI:   No, but I am, I was willing just before this hearing, I was willing to do so.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why didn’t you make an attempt to visit them?

MR NKOSI:   I requested a lady to accompany me because I did not want this to be heard in public. I wanted it to be a matter that would be discussed with the family, but unfortunately that did not happen.

CHAIRPERSON:   If you get an opportunity to make your peace with them now, are you prepared to do so?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, I have peace with the family.

CHAIRPERSON:   You don’t know if they have peace with you, that’s the point. I’m asking you, if you had an opportunity to talk to them now, are you prepared to do so?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, but I don’t know what their response would be, what would be their response.

CHAIRPERSON:   You won’t know until you try, isn’t it? Have you perhaps asked your attorney to make arrangements for that?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON:   And?

MR NKOSI:   I was not successful because it was already late, it was time to appear in front of this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you intend to pursue that aspect?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, I am prepared to do so.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Steenkamp, you indicated that the mother of the deceased would want to say something. I’m going to leave it in your hands to decide whether it is a matter that she wants to deal with to the general public, or say certain things to the witness. I’m going to allow you the opportunity now, so that she doesn’t have to attend the hearing unless she so chooses herself. But her business would have been completed.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman. I will, if possible - I don’t know what the time line is the Committee is working on. Mr Chairman, if you would allow me just a second just to speak to her in the meantime Mr Chairman. Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you - Mr Steenkamp is going to find out if she needs the witness here. You’d better ask her.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Yes sir. Mr Chairman it seems that the mother is adamant that she wants to say a few words to the applicant. Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman her surname exactly is the same as that of Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, it’s also her surname and her first name is Esther, Mrs Esther Nyongwane.

If, with your indulgence Mr Chairman, she’s being assisted here by a family member, and if that will be allowed. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mrs Nyongwane what language would you prefer to use?

MRS NYONGWANE:   Zulu

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m going to allow you to say a few words. Do you want it to be a sworn statement, or do you just want to address certain people. I don’t know if you understand what is meant by a sworn statement?

MRS NYONGWANE:   ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON:   Is she taking the oath?

ESTHER NYONGWANE:   (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, proceed.

MRS NYONGWANE:   I can hear what you are saying. What’s your name by the way? Sidney. You would kill Jabulane without coming to me as Jabulane’s parent, to tell me that, mama, here is Jabulane and there are suspicions like this, knowing very well that Jabulane was an ANC member not Inkatha.

Sidney, my child, what made you not to come to me to tell me that Jabulane did this and that? And tell me about the rumours that you heard? I did not take you as enemies, my child’s enemies, that you can even plan to kill Jabulane saying that he was an IFP member, knowing very well that Jabulane was an ANC member. How could he be an IFP member, staying with you for six weeks at Vergenoeg, and kill him in the seventh week, knowing very well where his grandparents were staying and where his parents were staying. Please tell me my child, what made you to do that?

MR NKOSI:   Mam ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you - Mrs Nyongwane. I’m taking notes of the issues you want to raise with him. I will ask him on your behalf. If you want to say anything further, please say it.

MRS NYONGWANE:   Why didn’t you come to me, as you were staying with him and he used to help you with a lot of things, he used to support you financially and with food whenever he gets his salary or wages? Why didn’t you come to me to tell me that there was a plan against Jabulane? How do you feel today if, when you see me like this, all alone? Jabulane used to pay my rent, he used to support me. You know very well about my condition, and you used to be free at my home. What made you to do such things? I am all alone today. How do you feel? You see me walking up and down, I’m afraid to go back to my house, I cannot trust you. I cannot trust you at all. As you see me walking up and down I cannot trust you.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman that will be all. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   She can go back to her seat and listen to the answers as I’m going to put.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman if I may just, there’s just one question apparently the mother wants raised. She wants to know exactly what happened to the clothes of the deceased. That’s the only question. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now Mr Nkosi, you’ve heard what the mother of the deceased has raised. I’m going to deal with the issues one by one as I understand them, and if you want to you can respond. Do you understand?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mrs Nyongwane has said that the deceased stayed with you for six week before he was killed. You knew where his grandparents stayed, and where his parents stayed. What is your comment about that?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, we knew.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, what?

MR NKOSI:   We knew where his parents were staying, but during that six weeks that she is talking about, I know nothing about the six weeks.

CHAIRPERSON:   She says six weeks before he died he stayed with you.

MR NKOSI:   No, he was not staying with us. He was at Vergenoeg.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, she says at Vergenoeg with you.

MR NKOSI:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   You say that didn’t happen?

MR NKOSI:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   She says further that he supported you, financially and with food. What’s your comment on that?

MR NKOSI:   As I have already indicated initially when I was giving evidence here, we used to be together, that is true, I never ran away from that truth. He was more like a home boy to us. Everything that she had said, that we would be in his home and we used to be happy in his presence at his home and I used to drive his car, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON:   You see, I think what she’s trying to get at is that you were so close to him you ought to have known that he was a member of the ANC, and not the IFP. What is your comment on that?

MR NKOSI:   As we were staying with him, we wouldn’t reveal at Penduka section, whether one was IFP or ANC. That was to be a top secret, not to reveal yourself, because the environment was not safe. It was not safe to tell the people about the organisation that you belonged to.

CHAIRPERSON:   And his mother wants to know also what happened to his clothes?

MR NKOSI:   We left him there, we fled.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you know, do you not know how he lost his clothes?

MR NKOSI:   No, I do not have an idea.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now the most important question that she wishes to be answered by you, is why you never approached her. You knew where she stays, or stayed at the time. Why did you not approach her and tell her, this is what her son is getting up to, and maybe matters could have been sorted out that way. You knew her.

MR NKOSI:   I want to say again that during those times people got injured and their families were known. There was no time to go and visit their families, or explain to the mothers, because in some families they did not even know what happened to their loved ones. That did not come to my mind, that such a process should take place, that people should go to the family of a suspect and report whatever.

CHAIRPERSON:   What do you mean it never came to your mind? You were close to the family, he was close to you, it seems that you knew the family and that’s why Mrs Nyongwane has asked why didn’t you come to her, you knew her, to raise the problems with her, instead of killing her son.

MR NKOSI:   I did not have time, because we were staying far away from her, and to get some information that would come from the meeting. No-one came as I saw him for the very first, I saw her for the very first time in a meeting as the people were going back to their places. I never used to see her, because this happened suddenly, and there was no time for me to go and report to the family, because the instruction was already, had been issued at the time.

CHAIRPERSON:   For how long did you suspect that the deceased was indulging in IFP activities?

MR NKOSI:   If I’m not mistaken, we were still at Pen, as we were still at Penduka there were rumours that he was selling out. We did not have evidence at that time, till such time that we left Penduka and we got more evidence from other people who used to see these things happening.

CHAIRPERSON:   How long, two days, two weeks, two months? For how long did you suspect that he was dealing with the IFP?

MR NKOSI:   Will you please repeat the question sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   For what period before he died, was there a suspicion, or talk, that Mr Dube was indulging in IFP activities?

MR NKOSI:   I’ll say this, I cannot say, but what used to happen in the section, there used to be a list that would be compiled and that list had people, people’s names, people who would be killed. It was a long list and Jabulane’s name was there.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Nkosi, I’m asking you a simple question. How long, or for how long, did you suspect that Mr Dube was indulging in IFP activities?

MR NKOSI:   Quite a long time. I cannot mention in terms of months or days, but it was quite a long time.

CHAIRPERSON:   More than one week?

MR NKOSI:   Two to three years.

CHAIRPERSON:   Years?

MR NKOSI:   Yes, years.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you never found a single opportunity to approach his mother during that period, because you were so busy? Is that what you are saying?

MR NKOSI:   I did not have time to go to his family as this problem was in my hands. I did not have time to go and talk to his family.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, if I may, just arising from that, just ask one question. Mr Nkosi, did you, when you gave the order, and when you were also given the order, that Jabu was to be killed, did you have any doubt, whether he was or not, what was in your mind, was there any doubt, as to his membership and support of the IFP?

MR NKOSI:   Yes. I was suspecting him as, I was suspecting him, that he was an IFP member.

MR SHANE:   Yes. Did you have any doubt about it? In other words, were you sure that he was an IFP member?

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane maybe that horse is going to be reincarnated, I think.

ADV GCABASHE:   He had already answered the question Mr Shane. He said he suspected. He himself, suspected Jabu.

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman, that is evidence from this applicant.

MR SIBANYONI:   Mr Nkosi the people who joined you, left Penduka and joined you at Vergenoeg, did I understand it correctly?

MR NKOSI:   What people are you talking about?

MR SIBANYONI:   People who did not want to be suspected to be IFP members, were given a deadline to move away from Penduka. Were they supposed to come to Vergenoeg?

MR NKOSI:   Yes. But that was not only Vergenoeg, there was a no-go, a place that was declared a no-go area from Buthelezi, and the people who ran, fled to Tambo Slovo section. Therefore if you went, were beyond that no point you would be associated with Inkatha. Then from Buthelezi, beyond that point of Buthelezi, the people there were regarded as ANC members.

MR SIBANYONI:   So did Jabu also leave Penduka and join you at Vergenoeg, for these six months the mother was talking about?

MR NKOSI:   I saw Jabu after a long time, after leaving Penduka, I saw him at Vergenoeg. I hadn’t seen him at Penduka for a very long time. I did not know where he fled to, but I saw him at Vergenoeg and I did not stay with him there for a long time.

MR SIBANYONI:   But you did see him at Vergenoeg?

MR NKOSI:   Yes.

MR SIBANYONI:   Are you saying that you never knew that he was an ANC member?

MR NKOSI:   No.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)