HELD AT: METHODIST CHURCH, JOHANNESBURG

DAY: 4

______________________________________________________ MR SHANE:   Morning Mr Chairman. The matter I wish to call is that of Mzwake Buthelezi. Mr Chairman there is no application in the normal form before you, an affidavit has been prepared which I believe you do have.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well to be quite honest I haven’t read it yet.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chair this affidavit doesn’t help you. It doesn’t explain what he did with the application form. He says here:

MR SHANE:   With respect Mr Chairman, he says he signed the form at the school, Mapanzela School, and it was on the 10th of May 1997.

CHAIRPERSON:   Despite what you want to submit, in paragraph 4 it doesn’t say to whom he gave it, where he was when he gave it to this official, and when he gave it.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON:   He does say in paragraph 3 where he was and when he signed it. That’s fine. I’m not talking about where he signed it, or where he signed it, the application form is lost, and that’s what we’re trying to establish. What happened to it. Because we must also investigate whether this application was in fact made. He planned, he says, I filled it in. That’s not the end of the matter. Is there any explanation or -

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, in this, relating to this affidavit, I ask you to take into account the fact that we’ve heard evidence from an applicant previously, that this person, you heard evidence in fact from the applicant Victor Jeremiah Mambaso Nxomozulu, Muchacho. He said under oath that this person was present, and he went as far as who the official is.

With the greatest respect Mr Chairman, the applicant is before you. If there’s anything that needs to be supplemented to this affidavit, the applicant can, he’ll be under oath and he can tell you who he gave it to. I’ve mentioned an official of the TRC. Now that, under oath he can say who that official was, if he remembers.

Whatever other information that you may require, with respect sir, I submit with the greatest respect can be obtained from him under oath while he’s before you, just by questioning him, and that will complete everything you need to know sir, with the greatest respect.

CHAIRPERSON:   And hat happens if we’re not satisfied that the application was made?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman if you’re not satisfied that the application is made timeously, at the end of everything, then the law is quite clear on that. Then he cannot be granted amnesty. If he, the same as anyone else, if you get your application in too late, after 10 May 1997, you’re not entitled to amnesty. That’s the rules and that’s the law. B

But he, I submit Mr Chairman with the greatest respect, that on this, and on what you can hear, and also bearing in mind what you’ve already heard from the other applicant, I would submit that on a balance of probabilities it’s possible that his documents got lost and that loss was due to absolutely no act or omission on his part.

CHAIRPERSON:   Are you done?

MR SHANE:   On that aspect, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now answer the following questions for me. In this event would you not agree that an application taken to the normal condonation should be made? We haven’t got his application form. That’s common cause. You provide us with this affidavit, part of which makes an attempt, a flimsy attempt may I add, to explain why the original application form, if it did exist, is not here. In short, he says he can’t give an explanation, but this is what he did when he, after he completed the normal application form. Now he says in paragraph 4:

plural:

Now, would you submit that that’s sufficient for me even prima facie to allow this application to proceed?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I would say absolutely, because it’s not only based on paragraph 4, with he greatest respect.

CHAIRPERSON:   On what else is it based?

MR SHANE:   ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) an affidavit from those people attached to this?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, because first of all, I don’t believe that the rules pertaining to these applications are enforced as stringently as they would be if it was before you in the High Court Mr Chairman, number one. Number two, number two Mr Chairman, evidence under oath was given to you that the applicant was there. That was evidence under oath. All that would happen is a repeat. If I got an affidavit from the other applicant, from the applicant who said it under oath, would it merely be repeating what he said under oath. Whatever he said to you was under oath. That you’ve got to accept Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why, isn’t there an affidavit from these officials who allegedly collected his form, attached to this application?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman the, it is, I’ll say it is an official, and I, that he can explain. It’s an official, that official is not available, I, on instructions from my client I didn’t mention the name of the official, but if, I can tell you, if I must tell you, the official involved was Sally Sealy, that’s my instruction.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why is her name not mentioned here, and why hasn’t she submitted to an affidavit?

MR SHANE:   Right, firstly Mr Chairman the reason is, number one, Sally Sealy, I cannot get hold of her, she’s not available. That’s number one. I prepared this affidavit, the applicant was in my office late yesterday afternoon, I prepared the affidavit, he came this morning, and he signed, and it was interpreted to him again, hence the changes that were made. Now I cannot get hold of Sally Sealy but whatever, I submit with the greatest respect Mr Chairman, that whatever the Commission wants to know, can be elicited from the applicant while he is under oath.

I will submit with the greatest respect, that on this before you there is, on a balance of probabilities, at the very least on a balance of probabilities, you can find that he, on the deadline day, he signed his application for amnesty. It was taken. He was with numerous, all the applicants. If you look all these applications before you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   You’re repeating yourself now Mr Shane. Can I ask you another question. What would be your position, and the position of the proposed applicant, if a person to whom he, assuming he did fill in the form and hand it over to somebody, assuming that person was not an official of the TRC, what would then be the position?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman if that was, I mean this is pure speculation, but if that was the case, I would have to try and find out who that person was, if he could tell me.

CHAIRPERSON:   But you just said it was Ms Sally Sealy. If she wasn’t an official of the TRC at the time. What would then be the position of the application?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I would still submit that if I could then establish who this person was, what was their capacity, I would then have to either bring that person before you or get that person to depose, but it would not, I would submit it would not render his submission invalid.

CHAIRPERSON:   But then his application was not submitted, before the closing date. That’s the aim of my question.

MR SHANE:   Well Mr Chairman we don’t know that, because it might have been submitted and got lost en route. We don’t know. I mean it’s possible that it could have been given to the proper authorities, and between the authorities it got lost. But Mr Chairman with the greatest respect I submit that before you, there is sufficient for you even if there is anything that needs further investigation or further information, it is obtainable from the applicant under oath. He can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   You see Mr Shane, you can’t get the application before us through the back door. We’ve got to be satisfied that there’s an application, which is hearable, which falls under the ambit of the powers and functions of the TRC Amnesty Committee. Whatever you want me to find out, or the Committee to find out, from the applicant himself, or the proposed applicant, would only be obtained once he’s taken the oath, and then in some strange way the application is before us. It’s putting the cart before the horse.

MR SHANE:   With respect Mr Chairman, if, after ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   A proper affidavit, which would set out a prima facia case would certainly have been in his favour. The flimsy explanation, or attempted explanation in paragraph 4 doesn’t help him. And that you submit that I must, this Committee must take into cognisance what some other applicant had said, I don’t feel, and I haven’t discussed it with my colleagues yes, I don’t think carries much water. Because when that person testified he was not testifying on this application to prove that in fact an application was made. Understand?

MR SHANE:   I do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:    I don’t find it plausible that anybody was unable to obtain an affidavit from an official or officials who allegedly were members of the TRC staff at the time, to support this affidavit.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman, we have, I consulted with the applicant yesterday. I prepared an affidavit last night. The applicant signed the affidavit this morning. There were alterations. Number one, the alterations are in my hand, they haven’t been changed on the word processor, in order to save time. I have to, if Mr Chairman you want further evidence, I have to look for it from the so called officials of the TRC, but Mr Chairman in my consultation with the applicant, this is the explanation he has given me after lengthy consultation with him. This is all he could tell me. I am, I cannot and certainly will not put words in his mouth and tell him what to say. Obviously that is not my task. This is all ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Did it cross your mind, did it cross your mind to try to find out who these officials were?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I did, I told you who the official is. I told you. I knew the official but I didn’t’ put their name, I called that person an official of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why would you not have put her name in this affidavit?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) lend credence to the allegation that he did give it over to an official.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman the reason is because first of all, if I mention a name, in the normal course, one should - If a name is mentioned that then should strengthen the affidavit by a confirming affidavit. Right. Mr Chairman this person is not available. I don’t want to, I can come and ask you now Mr Chairman for this matter to adjourn to next week to give me an opportunity to find this - that is the only solution I’ve got then, and I thought it would, we would be able to run, but if that is the case then Mr Chairman I will have to, further to this affidavit before you, get another affidavit from that official explaining the situation. It’s difficult to get hold of that official. I’ve tried to get hold of the official. I’ve left messages on her voice mail. That is my situation. I can then suggest let this matter stand down ‘til next week and I’ll make every endeavour to get hold of that official. If I can’t get hold of this official Mr Chairman then we’re going to be in the same position as we are today. I will argue, but I mean I could take that opportunity and I suppose given a few more days maybe I will get her.

CHAIRPERSON:   Let me explain something to you. This process, the Amnesty Committee, the Truth and Reconciliation process under the Commission, is not an informal process. In my view it must rank as one of the most important processes in the history of this country. The eyes of many people across the world is on this process. It is under the microscope, and we can’t afford to be as informal as you suggest we must be in making decisions here.

The problem I do have, and this I’ve discussed with my colleagues, is that we know that there was a process to submit application forms to the TRC office. Most, if not all, were in fact submitted, including one applicant with two different names. You tell us now there is an applicant, your client, who says he also did fill in a form and handed it to, and I quote his affidavit:

Be it many or one is irrelevant. We must satisfy ourselves that a proper application is before us. There is no such application yet. You and your client, or your client with your assistance, to persuade us and satisfy us that in fact he did make the application, the application is not before us because of some fault within the system, administrative system of the TRC. Failing that then I don’t think we do have an application.

Now I’ve said what I think I need to say to you to put you in the proper picture. I’m not going to advise you or tell you what to do next. If you want to apply for certain things than do so, we will consider it.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman if I may just reply. Sir this what you say is quite correct, this is very important, the amnesty proceeding, and the spotlight is on it, but Mr Chairman I ask you to consider the following. You are dealing here with the promotion of national, of unity and reconciliation, and I submit with the greatest respect that if the rules are going to be completely restrictively applied, and it is, I submit your suggestions are making the rules extremely restrictive, I submit that maybe this will have an adverse bearing on achieving the desired reconciliation and unity, as what, that’s what this Act is all for. I submit that it should be liberally applied, not restrictively applied. I submit with the greatest respect Mr Chairman that in a circumstance like this, where it is probable, and I submit that on this it’s not for the applicant to show you beyond doubt that he put an application in and it got lost. He’s not going to be able to prove to you beyond any reasonable doubt. There’s always going to be doubts Mr Chairman, I don’t think that is the test. I think that if it’s restrictively applied, he’s going to fail in that, but I don’t believe that you have to apply it restrictively. I think the opposite applies Mr Chairman, and if, in the circumstances, you see a way that it is possible that his application form did get lost, and he can give the explanation that he can, because he can’t give more than what he can. What is here Mr Chairman, what is before you, is all that we’re going to get from this applicant. He cannot give me any more information, it was canvassed from him. Save to tell you Sally Sealy was the person involved. He’s not going to be able to, he’s not even going to be able to give you the more or less, the time that he signed his application and gave it to - Mr Chairman I submit it’s not, it shouldn’t be restrictively applied.

I don’t know, maybe my learned friend Mr Steenkamp can have some comments on this, I don’t know if he could assist you Mr Chairman, but I submit that you shouldn’t be restrictively, shouldn’t be restrictive rules in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) point out to you, if our roles were reversed, then you could ask Mr Steenkamp, I’m asking you. Is that the best you can submit. I’ve put my problem to you, you don’t seem to be ...(intervention)

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman having put the problem to me I’m going to have to tell you that I am obviously on this, it’s not sufficient, and on this, he’s going to, I know that I’m not going to get more information out of my client but I might need information from another official, which I will have to get by affidavit. I’m not going to be able to get it today, I hope I can get it tomorrow, but I would ask you that this matter stand down then until next week, in the circumstances. That’s the best I can do.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane you are aware that we need to be satisfied that the proper application was made, and that the fact that it’s not before us is a TRC administrative problem, as opposed to no fault of the applicant. You’ve got to check that.

MR SHANE:   Correct Mr Chairman. By saying that his failure, or the failure of his application to be before you, is due to no act or omission on his part, implies something went wrong on the part of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON:   No, that’s precisely the point. I raise specifically with you that the person whom he alleges received his document, we must also be satisfied that that person was a member of the staff of the TRC. If that person was not, for example if it was a private attorney, then the TRC is not at fault. Unless that attorney can prove to us that she or he handed it in to the TRC itself.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman it’s quite clear then my position is I have to call that person, I’ve got no choice.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m not advising you what to do, I’m just pointing out my problems to you.

MR SHANE:   I, it’s quite clear, and all I say is I will do my best to get that person. That person’s not available today, I ask that this matter possibly stand on until Monday.

CHAIRPERSON:   And can you do something else for us? When you’re considering this application, because it’s not going to be an easy one, you need to pay attention to it and do everything necessary as any attorney should do. I’ll tell you what the normal procedures are, and you may picked it up with other applications, that as soon as the TRC received an application in the form of the roneoed form, the applicant or his attorneys will receive a letter of acknowledgment of receipt of that application. According to this affidavit, this application is allegedly to have been completed on or about the 10th of May 1997. One would have expected an explanation as to why enquiries had not been made thereafter about, what about the position of this application. So in your preparations, one would expect an explanation for that as well.

Mr Steenkamp there’s been an application for this matter to be postponed to next week. Have you got any comments on that?

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman with all respect I don’t think I’m in a position to make any comments, maybe save to say, maybe not directly relevant, but I am informed, I was informed as well, yesterday and today, I spoke to Mr Khanyile, one of the victims in this matter. My only, with all respect Mr Chairman, the suggestion is that when considering this application the rights of the victims must be considered. That’s my only remark if I may make it. Thank you Mr Chairman.

But regarding the position of postponing it, may we put on record I think it’s a common fact that during the time of this application I don’t think this specific individual in discussion was a member of the TRC. I think that’s a factual position.

CHAIRPERSON:   I don’t know, I’ve asked Mr Shane to investigate it and to consider it properly in that light. She may very well have been a member. This Panel is unaware of it.

ADV STEENKAMP:   I withdraw that remark Mr Chairman. The only thing I would suggest is, regarding the specific application, I’m sure and I would like for the moment just to speak at least to the victims and to hear what their view is on this application, because it can have an effect on their rights ultimately, obviously.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Steenkamp, two days, and I’m going to discuss it with my colleagues, I for one would insist that it’s no longer than by Monday, so we’re talking effectively a one day difference, or two days if you want to become technical. That’s the best I’m going to do for Mr Shane.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Steenkamp I agree, I mean with all respect I’m in your hands, but the only point basically I’m making if I may, is the fact that I would suggest that the rights of the victims must all be taken into consideration.

CHAIRPERSON:   I don’t know what we’re going to do if they oppose the application for a postponement, but I want to give you an opportunity to talk to them and explain the position to them. While their rights are important, the rights of applicants are just as important and we have to draw a balance between the two. Can we adjourn for five minutes please.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes Mr Shane.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I’d ask that this matter be stood down until next week, Monday.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you for the five minute break. Mr Chairman there will be no position from my side until Monday. I think it’s reasonable and give me some time to consult with the victims.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes I think it’s far too important to make a decision on the validity of this application without proper information. There has been an application to postpone this application to Monday morning, and in the interest of justice and bearing in mind the rights of both the applicant and the possible victims in the matter for which he proposes to apply for amnesty, I’m going to grant him the postponement until Monday morning, nine a.m.

MR SHANE:   As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   I believe there’s further applications to be heard today still?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman we’re ready. If you will allow it Ms Nhlayisi will take over immediately without adjourning if that is in order.

CHAIRPERSON:   It’s teatime, we can start with her after tea.

MR SHANE:   As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   We’ll adjourn.

MS NHLAYISI:   The name is Ms Z Nhlayisi. Mr Chairman, my first application, it’s application number AM7363 appearing on page 219. The name of the applicant, it’s Sakile Jethro Motjale. Further Mr Chairperson I realise that the identity number was not inserted in the original application. If I may supply same to you. The identity number is 690516 5550 08 2.

Mr Chairman the applicant is bringing an application for amnesty for the following. It’s attempted murder. Possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition. Malicious damage to property. Kidnapping. Assault. And pointing a firearm.

Further, before I proceed I wish to mention that in his application form he stated that he’s applying for murder, and it turned out later that the victim did not die in this particular incident, hence the change to attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Motjale what language would you prefer to use?

MR MOTJALE:   Zulu

CHAIRPERSON:   Very well. Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE:   (sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON:   Please be seated.

ADV STEENKAMP:   I’m sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I’m sorry I missed out on the question a bit. My position is that the victim is present. My instructions is that the victim is not opposing the application for amnesty. Now there’s a few factual differences, but he’s in principal not opposing the application. Thank you Mr Chairman.

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI:   Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Motjale, you were a member of the SDU’s in Mlangeni section in Tokoza. Is that correct?

MR MOTJALE:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   In which year did you join the SDU?

MR MOTJALE:   1993.

MS NHLAYISI:   At that time, who was your commander?

MR MOTJALE:   It was Vusi.

MS NHLAYISI:   Do you know his surname?

MR MOTJALE:   No, I don’t know his surname.

MS NHLAYISI:   In your application form, or during our consultation, you stated that it’s Vusi Malinga. Is that correct?

MR MOTJALE:   Yes.

MS NHLAYISI:   You’ve applied for amnesty for the offences that I’ve mentioned before. That is attempted murder of one person known to you as Gobani. Is that correct?

MR MOTJALE:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   And for malicious damage to property, possession of firearms and ammunition, kidnapping, assault, and pointing a firearm. Is that correct?

MR MOTJALE:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   In your application form, on page 221, you mention that there’s an incident where you tried to kill Gobani, and he escaped. Could you briefly tell this Committee what happened on this particular day? How this came about.

MR MOTJALE:   Our commander Vusi, told us that the people from Mlangeni street, are complaining that there’s someone that they don’t understand his motives. That was Gobani. He came to us, he told us that as SDU members.

MS NHLAYISI:   Could you be clear and clarify what is it that your commander said that people could not understand about this particular person? Just elaborate on that.

MR MOTJALE:   Gobani was person who used to be found at Penduka, that was IFP terrain at the time.

MS NHLAYISI:   You’re saying he used to be at Penduka, and him being at Penduka, what did it imply to you, as the members of the SDU’s?

MR MOTJALE:   That meant that he was an IFP member.

MS NHLAYISI:   So what you’re saying basically is that this Gobani was seen at Penduka, at the place were all the IFP members could have access.

MR MOTJALE:   Yes, that is correct. Most of the time he would be at the taxi rank that is in Penduka. He was queue marshall at the taxi rank. Marshall, queue marshall, at the taxi rank.

MS NHLAYISI:   It was confirmed by him being there that he was a member of the IFP?

MR MOTJALE:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   I don’t follow that. Is it because he was a queue marshall that people though - Is that what would have made him a member of the IFP?

MR MOTJALE:   The people were complaining about him because they knew that even at the taxi rank he was entreating people. He was later found at Tokoza.

CHAIRPERSON:   But how does the question of his IFP membership come out?

MR MOTJALE:   Vusi came, he told us that there was a person that was suspected in that street, in that particular street. They said he was an IFP member and they didn’t know what was it that he was looking for.

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike.

MS NHLAYISI:   How was it established that he was a member of the IFP, or how did you get this information that he was a member of the IFP?

MR MOTJALE:   We got that from our commander. The community approached our commander, and they told our commander about this person that used to be seen in our street.

MS NHLAYISI:  To clarify what you mentioned earlier about this Gobani being a queue marshall. Where exactly was he a queue marshall? Was it at Tokoza or some other place?

MR MOTJALE: That meant that he was an IFP member.

MRS NHLAYISI: What you are saying basically is that this Qobani was seen at Penduka, at the place where only IFP members would have access, is that correct?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct. Most of the time, he would be at the taxi rank that is in Penduka. He was a queue marshall at the taxi rank.

MRS NHLAYISI: It was confirmed by him that he was a member of the IFP?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow that. Is it because he was a queue marshall that people thought, is that what would have made him a member of the IFP?

MR MOTJALE: The people were complaining about him, because they knew that even at the taxi rank, he was ill-treating people. He was later found at Tokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: How does the question of his IFP membership come up?

MR MOTJALE: Vusi came, he told us that there was a person that was being suspected in that street, in that particular street. They said he was an IFP member and they didn't know what was it that he was looking for.

MRS NHLAYISI: ... establish that he was a member of the IFP or how did you get this information that he was a member of the IFP?

MR MOTJALE: We got that from our Commander. The community approached our Commander and they told our Commander about this person that used to be seen in our street.

MRS NHLAYISI: ... mentioned earlier about this Qobani being a queue marshall. Where exactly was he a queue marshall? Was it at Tokoza or some other place, can you elaborate on that?

MR MOTJALE: It was in Tokoza, Khumalo Street, at the taxi rank. The taxi's that were using the Khumalo Street.

MRS NHLAYISI: It has come during our consultation that during the period of violence, people who belonged to the IFP, used their own taxis and the rest of the community, used other taxis, so on which of these two taxis was he a queue marshall?

MR MOTJALE: He was a queue marshall at the taxi rank at Khumalo Street. That was before the violence in Tokoza.

MRS NHLAYISI: During the violence, did he continue to work as a queue marshall at the taxi rank? Do you know or you don't know about this?

MR MOTJALE: No, I don't know.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you said you were given an instruction about this Qobani because it was said that he was an IFP member. What exactly was the instruction from your Commander?

MR MOTJALE: He told us to deal with this person, he told us to kill him because he was an IFP member, because even ourselves if we would be found in the IFP terrain, we would also be killed.

MRS NHLAYISI: Where exactly were you going to get hold of this Qobani, where were you going to find him to carry out this instruction?

MR MOTJALE: He came to us, the Commander came to us and he told us that this person was seen at Khumalo Street, standing at the bus stop and then he instructed us to go and fetch the AK47 rifles and we took two AK47 rifles, there were five of us, we took a taxi at Khumalo Street, we found him there.

We took him into the kombi, we took him to Polla Park. We arrived at Polla Park, he was questioned as to what it was that he was looking for, because we had already told them that we had ...

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, before you proceed. You said there were five of you to carry out that instruction, who were the other people who were with you when you went to pick him up in a taxi?

MR MOTJALE: It was myself, Themba, Mswazi, Quambi. I don't know the other boy's name because I just saw him for the first time on that particular day, and Vusi.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay. You said you picked him up in a taxi, you took him to Polla Park. What was the purpose of you taking Qobani to Polla Park?

MR MOTJALE: He was to be questioned as to what was it that he was looking for in our section, Mlungeni Section.

MRS NHLAYISI: What transpired when you arrived at Polla Park?

MR MOTJALE: We showed him to the people there, we introduced him to the other Commanders. I don't know the comrade from Polla Park, Vusi and Themba were talking and they questioned him, but he said nothing and he was searched. His ID book was found and the card, membership card, and he was told to go to the playground at Polla Park.

A firearm was pointed.

MRS NHLAYISI: You said when he was searched his ID document was found and IFP card, what do you mean? Was this an IFP membership card?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, after he was searched, what happened then?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the questions.

MRS NHLAYISI: After he was searched, what happened? After you found that documentation, his ID document and his IFP membership card, what did you people do to him?

MR MOTJALE: He was questioned but he did not respond. He was told to go to the playground and the firearms were pointed at him.

He went into the playground, he was shot at, but he ran towards Eden Park. He got into a police car that was in Eden Park.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you know whether he was, there was anything done on him on that particular day, was he assaulted or anything?

MR MOTJALE: No. I heard nothing.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you remember during our consultation you mentioned that although you yourself didn't assault him personally, but some other people did assault him. What do you say about that?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, he was assaulted. I think he was wearing a jacket, that jacket was taken off. He was standing on the other side, because there were other people who were questioning him.

MRS NHLAYISI: To who did you take Qobani to Polla Park, were you taking him to any specific person at Polla Park, or were you just taking him to a place in Polla Park for interrogation? What was the situation there?

MR MOTJALE: Our Commander instructed that he be interrogated, he be questioned, because the people wanted to know what is it that he was doing at Mlungeni.

MRS NHLAYISI: My question to you is why did you choose Polla Park? Did you choose Polla Park because you wanted to take him to a specific person who was going to conduct the interrogation or were you taking him to Polla Park, to a certain venue to interrogate him there?

MR MOTJALE: We were taking him there because in the township, there were people who were against ANC. There were informants, that is why we decided to take him to Polla Park.

MRS NHLAYISI: So these people that you mentioned that joined in in the interrogation, where did they come from?

MR MOTJALE: Will you please repeat the question.

MRS NHLAYISI: You said on your arrival in Polla Park, there were other people who assaulted him and you just stood by and watched, where did this people come from? How did it come about that they joined you?

MR MOTJALE: This boy who was in our company, is the one who got inside in one of the shacks and he came out with another gentleman. Then he called the others.

MRS NHLAYISI: With this particular incident, is there any stage where firearms were used, where he was pointed with firearms or something of that nature?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, because during questioning the firearms were pointed at him.

MRS NHLAYISI: Did you point him with a firearm?

MR MOTJALE: I did when we were taking him into the kombi, when we arrived there at the spot, this other guy took the firearm.

After questioning him, they instructed him to go into the playground and he was shot at.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you know who shot at him?

MR MOTJALE: I don't know his name, it is someone that I did not know very well.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you know the owner of the kombi that you used in transporting Qobani to Polla Park?

MR MOTJALE: No, we just stopped a kombi.

MRS NHLAYISI: How did you take this kombi, did you take it and drive it yourself or did you request this person to assist you in transporting Qobani to Polla Park?

MR MOTJALE: The owner, we stopped the owner of the kombi and he asked him to transport us to Polla Park, but we are not yet at the spot where Qobani was and then we opened the sliding door and we instructed him to stand at a spot where Qobani was and we pointed him with firearms and we took him into the car.

I don't know the owner of the kombi.

MRS NHLAYISI: What I am trying to establish from you Mr Motjale is, you didn't take this kombi by force or you didn't in any way force the driver to take you to Polla Park. He requested him and he agreed to assist you?

MR MOTJALE: We did not force him, we requested him to help us and he agreed.

MR SIBANYONI: I am sorry, how were you holding your weapons? Were you concealing your weapons or were they open?

MR MOTJALE: They were concealed.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So the driver could not have felt threatened or pressurised into giving you a lift?

MR MOTJALE: I don't know whether he was threatened or not, I did not take notice. I did not take notice. We were wearing duster coats and we just stopped the taxi and we asked him.

MRS NHLAYISI: You are saying that on this specific day Qobani managed to run away, he was shot at. Do you know whether he suffered any injuries on this particular day?

MR MOTJALE: I do not know because he ran away. He did not stop. When he was instructed to go into the playground, two boys were shooting and the other one from Polla Park, they were shooting and we just saw him running away until he arrived at the other side of Eden Park.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you didn't observe any shots that struck him?

MR MOTJALE: No, because he was at a distance and he was also running away.

MRS NHLAYISI: The fact that on that particular day, you yourself didn't fire any shots, can you say you agree with what was happening to Qobani at the playgrounds as he was assaulted and shots were fired to him?

MR MOTJALE: This other comrade wanted the firearm that was in my possession. It was not yet mentioned at that time that Qobani would be killed.

I gave him the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't your Commander make that order prior to his kidnapping?

MR MOTJALE: Will you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your Commander not order his death even before he was kidnapped?

MR MOTJALE: The Commander said something just before he was fetched, he said shoot, kill just before we could go and fetch him. He told us that he should be questioned.

He instructed that he be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: So when he was kidnapped, when you participated in his kidnapping, you knew that the kidnapping was to facilitate his killing, not so?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time, it could even have been him who was going to shoot him, not so?

MR MOTJALE: Will you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time you helped kidnap him, no one knew who was going to shoot him, correct?

MR MOTJALE: I also did not know who was going to shoot him because that was not discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it could even have been you that would have been instructed later to shoot him? You knew that?

MR MOTJALE: I did not know because we had only two AK47 rifles and one pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were armed with one of them, one of the firearms?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, I was armed with an AK47 rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: And if the Commander have ordered you to shoot him, you would have done so?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the fact that someone was told or someone else shot him, didn't matter, you agreed with that, not so?

MR MOTJALE: We knew that IFP members, whenever they get hold of you as an SDU member, you would be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was the reason for him being kidnapped, correct?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, all these things that occurred to the victim, as I understand your evidence, you associated yourself with that, not so? Everything that happened to him?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, I associated myself with all these activities because I was forced by the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. That is attempted murder, the kidnapping, the assault. You yourself pointed a firearm at him, and you were in possession of a firearm illegally, correct?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Nhlayisi, I don't recall us dealing with the (indistinct)

MRS NHLAYISI: Yes Mr Chairperson, we are coming to a second incident involving the same person, but which happened in a house. That is where the malicious damage to property come in.

Yes, there is another attempted murder on the second incident, on the same person. It relates to the same person, but this time it happened in a certain house.

CHAIRPERSON: ... attempted murders, yes. Then I need to find out also the incident you are now describing or that you have just described, when did that happen?

MR MOTJALE: In 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you be more specific? I will tell you why, we are now being told there are two incidents and if we, we are going to have to decide on both and we need to identify each by way of a relatively ascertainable date, maybe a month or something.

MR MOTJALE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did both happen in the same month?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 220 there is an indication that it was September 1993?

MR MOTJALE: I cannot remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you be able to dispute that it was September 1993?

MR MOTJALE: No, I cannot dispute that because I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. The first incident that you have described already, would that have occurred in the early part of September or the later portion of September?

MR MOTJALE: I think it was towards September.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but when in September? Early in September or late in September?

MR MOTJALE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Proceed.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Motjale, can you remember when we consulted with you and your other colleague, you mentioned that the first incident that you have related here, occurred in September and the second one, occurred a week thereafter. Do you still confirm that?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, let's come to the second incident where Qobani was shot at in a certain house at Xaba Street. Could you relate to the Committee what transpired on that day?

MR MOTJALE: It was found out that Qobani did not sustain injuries. He went back. It was discovered that Qobani did not die or sustain injuries as he was shot. One of us, Quambi, told us that Qobani was at Xaba Street.

MRS NHLAYISI: Where is this Xaba Street, is it in your Section, in Mlungeni Section?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, it is at Mlungeni Section.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay. In your application form on page 220 you mention that the house there, it is 2190 Xaba Street, however during our consultation you realised that you have made a mistake, the house number there is 2192 Xaba Street, do you confirm that, where this particular incident took place?

MR MOTJALE: Yes. Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, after you had received this information that Qobani has been seen at this particular house, number 2192 Xaba Street, what happened then?

MR MOTJALE: Our Commander told us again that the person was around. I cannot remember but I think he was told by a certain woman who was staying there.

MRS NHLAYISI: You do not know the identity of this particular woman who gave the information to your Commander, is that correct?

MR MOTJALE: No, we got that information from our Commander that this person was seen in that street.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, so after you were told that Qobani has been seen at Xaba Street, what were the instructions? What were you commanded to do then?

MR MOTJALE: The Commander told us to kill this person, the person was no longer needed in the community, because the IFP people, they killed any SDU member if he can set his or her foot at Penduka Section. He gave us two AK47, we were three, and he told us to go and kill that person.

MRS NHLAYISI: You were three, who were the other two people with you?

MR MOTJALE: It was myself, Themba and Mswazi.

MRS NHLAYISI: When you are referring to Mswazi, you are referring to Mswazi Puncumalo who has also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Where is Themba at present?

MR MOTJALE: He passed away.

MRS NHLAYISI: So the three of you were given these instructions to go to this particular house?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: You set off, what happened on your arrival there?

MR MOTJALE: We knocked at the door, someone asked, enquired as to who was at the door, and a friend of mine said my name is Peter, that was Themba. Themba said he was Peter.

MRS NHLAYISI: Was it at night?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, it was at night.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, then what happened after this person inside has enquired about your identity?

MR MOTJALE: He did not open the door. He or she did not open the door. We knocked for a short time. The door was not opened. There was a padlock outside that was used to lock the door.

Themba shot at the padlock, because we knew that there were people inside. When he shot at this padlock, the door couldn't open still.

MRS NHLAYISI: What happened, did you leave after the door could not open?

MR MOTJALE: No, we did not leave. We waited for a while, we wanted to see if they were going to open the door.

We went to the front door and the front door was also locked. He broke the window pane at the bedroom, the one that was on the left hand side.

MRS NHLAYISI: Before you proceed, sorry, you are saying he broke a window. You were with two people, who broke the window?

MR MOTJALE: Themba is the one who broke the window before the shooting.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, then what did you do?

MR MOTJALE: I shot directing at the kitchen window.

MRS NHLAYISI: After this shooting, did you manage at any stage to gain access into the house?

MR MOTJALE: We shot directing at all the windows, after that we opened the window. I was told to get inside first, in the kitchen.

When I got inside, Qobani appeared with a spear.

MRS NHLAYISI: He was inside the house?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, what happened? You still had your firearm at that stage when you got inside the house, through the window?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, I still had my firearm because after getting into the house, I went straight to him.

MRS NHLAYISI: How did you identify this person who was inside the house, as Qobani because it was at night? Was the house lit?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, the light was on. The (indistinct), the streetlight outside, the light could lit the dining room of the house. The light from the streetlight, and I knew, I knew Qobani.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, so you are saying through the assistance of this light in the street, you could identify this particular person who was in the house as Qobani? It was well lit for you to can identify this person?

MR MOTJALE: No, it was not well lit, but at least one would be able to identify a person.

MRS NHLAYISI: After you got into the house, what happened next?

MR MOTJALE: We fought, he had an assegai, he stabbed me with that assegai. I lost my firearm as I was struggling this assegai, because he had already stabbed me at the time.

MRS NHLAYISI: Did you manage at any stage during that incident, to fire any shots at him?

MR MOTJALE: No, it was not possible for me to shoot at him because he was nearer, he was very close to me, I couldn't shoot him. He had a short assegai. He stabbed me and we were struggling and I was trying to get hold of this assegai and I lost my AK47 in that process.

MRS NHLAYISI: How did you manage to get out of the house?

MR MOTJALE: We did not leave the house until Themba came in. He stabbed him with a sharp object from the AK47. There is something that is like a knife and it is embedded in the AK47, he used that thing to stab him.

MRS NHLAYISI: You are saying Themba stabbed Qobani with that object from the AK47, is that correct?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, he stabbed him with that and he started fighting with him now.

They were fighting and I went out of the house and I fired.

MRS NHLAYISI: So at some stage, because you said initially you lost your firearm or your AK47 in the struggle with Qobani, at some stage you managed to get hold of it again and you fired. At who did you fire?

MR MOTJALE: He was now fighting with Themba as Themba was holding an AK47. When he left me alone, I was already stabbed in the neck with that sharp object that he had.

As he was still fighting with Themba with this AK47, I took my firearm and I fired.

MRS NHLAYISI: Did your shot strike him, could you see whether he was struck by your shot that you fired when he struggled with Themba?

MR MOTJALE: I shot and after that I saw him falling at the dining room door.

MRS NHLAYISI: Were you shooting at close range?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: So when he fell, you assumed that you have hit him with your bullet?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, because I saw him falling. I told myself that I did hit him. I was a bit dizzy because I was also stabbed.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you cannot tell this Committee today on which part of his body, if he was hit, as to where on his body was he hit?

MR MOTJALE: I cannot tell because I just shot and I saw him falling and I was dizzy. I just saw him falling after the shooting, and I also fell. Themba came to my rescue.

MRS NHLAYISI: When you completed your form for amnesty, that was in 1997, you stated that you killed this particular person. Why is it so when actually this person was still alive, did you say that he was killed in this particular incident? Can you give an explanation?

MR MOTJALE: It is because I assumed, because I know that a firearm can kill a person.

I told myself that he was dead because I saw him falling.

CHAIRPERSON: You went there to kill him, you shot him and therefore you thought you had killed him?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you have left out regarding these two incidents that you have mentioned that you wish to bring to the attention of the Committee?

MR MOTJALE: I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: When you remember, if you remember anything, then you can raise it. Do you understand?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Today you are here for an application for amnesty. Do you wish to say anything in particular to the victim, to the person that you have kidnapped and you have attempted to kill? Is there any particular message that you would like to send to him?

MR MOTJALE: I just want to say that we were forced by the situation at the time, and we were also having our own Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see him in the hearing today?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to address him? Do you wish him to hear what you want to say?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then, proceed.

MR MOTJALE: I am applying for amnesty. I was not prepared to do such a horrible thing. I want to apologise to him, I apologise for what I did.

I apologise for what I did to him.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson, I have nothing further.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I have no questions, however, I am instructed to make one remark on record to the applicant on behalf of the victim, if I may do so. Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, although the victim feels he is not opposing the application, he is saying that he has suffered a lot because of the seriousness of his injuries. Today he is still suffering, he still has a lot of pain which changed his life, and he feels that the applicant will never or can never do anything that will change this, and he feels at this stage without meeting the applicant, he is not in a position to forgive or to forget this incident which changed his life forever. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe Mr Steenkamp, was he ever struck during that shooting, did he sustain any injuries - was not able to specify?

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry, sorry Mr Chairman, yes indeed, the victim was seriously injured by the shooting incident. He spent a lot of time in the Natalspruit Hospital before being released. We don't, unfortunately have the medical records, apparently they are not available Mr Chairman.

He was injured, shot in the thigh, there was also other injuries to his body which changed him, he had to undergo a few operations as well and even today, he is suffering from that. He is unfortunately not in a position to supply any further details of his specific injuries Mr Chairman. Thank you sir.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Motjale, just help me understand exactly what you are saying. Are you essentially saying that you had no personal knowledge of Qobani's activities?

MR MOTJALE: No.

ADV GCABASHE: You are saying you too knew of Qobani's activities before Vusi told you about them?

MR MOTJALE: Vusi came to tell us that there was a person that looked more like a suspect because the people from that area, used to come to him and complain and try and get some information.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I understand you to say that, but my question really is, you personally, did you know about his activities or the other way of looking at it is, were you simply following orders because Vusi said certain things and you were a member of the SDU under Vusi's command, you then did certain things? This is what I am trying to understand.

MR MOTJALE: No, I had no personal knowledge, but Vusi was our Commander.

ADV GCABASHE: You lived at Mlungeni Section, 2192 Xaba Street in Mlungeni Section, was that Qobani's home?

MR MOTJALE: No, he used to visit that house, just before the violence.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just in terms of who had the authority to give particular orders, I understand the kidnapping fell within Vusi's jurisdiction, he gave that command. He also mentioned that Qobani should be killed. I am right about that?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You then went to Polla Park and you talked about Themba fetching some other chap from one house, this other person called the rest of the community. Who was in command at the time, who was giving the orders at that time?

MR MOTJALE: No one was responsible for commanding the group. Anyone would just say something or pose a question.

ADV GCABASHE: That final order that Qobani should be killed at Polla Park, who gave that final order or was it just a general agreement by everybody, just help me with that?

MR MOTJALE: It was the agreement from the group that this IFP person should be killed.

ADV GCABASHE: Then one last aspect, I wasn't too sure about your participation in the assault. I am not sure if you participated in the assault or whether you simply observed others participating in the assault of Qobani at Polla Park, or whether you were not there at the time of the assault at Polla Park. Just help me with that.

MR MOTJALE: I was present, but I did not take part because it was chaos. They were pulling him towards the playground.

ADV GCABASHE: Finally, when you shot at Qobani the second incident at Xaba Street, you shot at him, you were inside the house with an AK47 and he was still struggling with Themba at the time? Did I get that right?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, I was inside the house, we were inside the house.

ADV GCABASHE: How did you know you would not hit Themba instead? I am just trying to picture this.

MR MOTJALE: He was at the place where it was brighter. The light was brighter.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Just to follow up on Adv Gcabashe's question. Themba was not hit during that shooting?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, he was not hit because I fired only once.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are things peaceful there in Tokoza now?

MR MOTJALE: After what happened, there was no peace. We couldn't look one another in the eye.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about now, today?

MR MOTJALE: Qobani does not reside there in my street.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to me carefully, it is not only you and Qobani who caused the problems there in Tokoza, I am asking if it is peaceful there today or is there still trouble?

MR MOTJALE: No, there are no problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Are people living with each other in peace now?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, that is in the process because the people had gone back to their houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the fact that there are people who belong to different political parties, tolerated now in the area?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And from what you say now, it seems like people can live together, whether they are members of IFP or the ANC or any other party?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, because we are able to move freely at Penduka Section and the IFP members from Penduka, they are free to go to our area, to Mlungeni and the other places.

CHAIRPERSON: And people are talking to each other now?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am pleased to hear that. Do you say Qobani doesn't live in the area any more?

MR MOTJALE: He never used to stay there, he used to visit.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you never tried to go to house 2192 Xaba Street, to go find out where you could find Qobani for the purposes of making peace with him and to tell him personally how sorry you were like you said today?

MR MOTJALE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR MOTJALE: That has been in my mind, but I was also scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what?

MR MOTJALE: About what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you tell me that people are now appearing to be living with each other peacefully, talking to each other and tolerant of each other's political choices. What would make you scared to make to him to say, and tell him personally how sorry you were about it, and to encourage people not to repeat these things?

MR MOTJALE: I couldn't go there because I only knew that Qobani was dead, that is why I was scared to go there. I only knew that Qobani was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you find out that he was alive and that you wouldn't be speaking to a ghost?

MR MOTJALE: I got that information when this issue of the Truth Commission was raised.

CHAIRPERSON: If it could be facilitated that you meet him to talk to him, maybe between your Attorney and the Evidence Leader, would you be prepared to talk to him, despite what he has just said?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: These battles that raged in the area, it may not have been the worst in the country, or perhaps it was, one never knows, do you regret that that has happened?

MR MOTJALE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And that really our own people were killing each other, not so because of somebody or some other agenda? Do you agree?

MR MOTJALE: Will you please repeat the question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: That this senseless battle where our own people were being killed, seems to me to have been the result of other people or other institutions or other parties' agendas and should not have happened at all, would you agree?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you yourself learnt about those mistakes now?

MR MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, what is the full name of the victim?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it is actually I will spell it, it is Jephanos and the correct surname is Dube. There is also the nephew, Mr Mandla Elios Soko. He is also here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he become a victim?

ADV STEENKAMP: Just sir by the fact that he was next of kin or family member, related family member. He is not directly, can be seen directly as a family member, but he was next of kin, and at one stage I think, he stayed in the house that was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get Mr Dube's address.

ADV STEENKAMP: Please Mr Chairman, if you will just allow me a minute. Mr Chairman, I can maybe just say in the meantime if I may be allowed ...

CHAIRPERSON: You can give us his address in chambers. What is the second ...

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I may, the feeling of Mr Dube is that if it can be facilitated, he feels he is in a position to speak to the applicant about what happened and he is prepared to make his peace.

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please speak a bit slowly because the Interpreters are struggling to hear him.

ADV STEENKAMP: I am just saying sir, the applicant has indicated to me now that he is willing and able to speak to the applicant, if that can be facilitated.

Mr Chairman, the second victim is Mr Mandla Elios Soko. The correct address Mr Chairman, of the victim is 2192 Xaba Street, I am sure I am pronouncing it incorrectly, but it is spelt Xaba Street, Tokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was it that was damaged?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, as far as I can establish, it belonged to the whole family, but the victim at one stage, stayed there. During the attack he stayed there as well. In the second incident, he stayed in this house. He used to stay in this house.

CHAIRPERSON: The victim in the sense of the damage, related to the damage caused to the house, would really be the owner who was almost obliged to fix it up and we need to consider whether we should refer that to the Reparations Committee and therefore we need to know who the owner was and of course it would be the same address.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is exactly one of the problems that we are trying to establish because apparently this house was rented from somebody and we will find that information. We will do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard that the victim has had a change of heart and I would request your Attorney and the Evidence Leader to facilitate that meeting, possibly in private, I am not too sure what is required.

I just want to say to the victim that I am pleased that he is able to see his way clear to do so because the time has come for us to live together as we should have been doing over the last 300 years.

We all should consciously avoid a repetition of what occurred in recent times in our country. You are excused.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the owner of that house was at that stage Mrs Lena Soko, Lena Soko, that was the actual, physical owner of the house. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, my next application is related to this one in terms of incidents. The name of the applicant is Mswazi Poni Xumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would his application be found?

MRS NHLAYISI: It is on page 226 and case number AM7281/97.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you prefer to use?

MSWAZI PONI XUMALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to come close to the microphone, they are special microphones which are very sensitive, and can pick up your voice as you sit normally, do you understand?

MR XUMALO: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can relax and your Attorney can ask you questions.

EXAMINATION BY MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, before I proceed, may I supply the Committee with the ID number of the applicant? 751027 5384 08 0.

CHAIRPERSON: What is he applying for?

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairperson, as I have indicated before, that he was present in both incidents that has been mentioned by the previous applicant, he is also applying for two attempted murders relating to the same person Qobani, possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, malicious damage to property, kidnapping, assault and pointing a firearm.

Mr Xumalo, you were also a member of the SDU in Mlungeni Section in Tokoza, is that correct?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: When did you join the SDUs?

MR XUMALO: I joined in 1992.

MRS NHLAYISI: Who was your Commander in Mlungeni Section?

MR XUMALO: It was Vusi.

MRS NHLAYISI: When the previous applicant, that is Mr Motjale testified, you were seated inside this room, is that correct?

MR XUMALO: Very true.

MRS NHLAYISI: He mentioned an incident relating to kidnapping one Qobani and taking him to Polla Park and in his testimony he mentioned that you were one of the people who participated in this incident. Do you confirm that?

MR XUMALO: Yes, that is true.

MRS NHLAYISI: You heard his testimony relating to this particular incident. Do you agree with what he has told this Committee or is there anything that you believe he has left out that you wish to mention?

MR XUMALO: The way he said it, I do concur with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to give us dates, he was unable to? Perhaps your memory serves you better?

MR XUMALO: I have no recollection of the dates as well, but it was around September, because it was right towards December.

MRS NHLAYISI: With the incident in Polla Park, did you associate yourself fully with what happened there to the victim, Qobani, I mean relating to his kidnapping, assault, attempted murder and pointing a firearm at him? Can you say today that you are disassociating yourself to any of those things that happened there?

MR XUMALO: I concur with the version of the former applicant.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you are associating yourself with what happened there?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: And the incident that took place at the house, 2192 Xaba Street, what role did you play there?

MR XUMALO: I had in my possession a palm gun, self made gun, we shattered the windows, that is what I did.

As to enter into the house, I did not, I was always, all the time, outside.

CHAIRPERSON: You went there in order to facilitate the killing of the victim?

MR XUMALO: I think if we were able to drag him to the outside, I think I would have played an active role.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but in other words you associated yourself with whatever occurred inside the house also, even though you never went into the house?

MR XUMALO: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You were one of three people that went to that house with an order to kill the victim, not so?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You armed yourself for that purpose essentially?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That you didn't get into the house, made no difference to the plan to which you were party, correct?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore you associated yourself with the activities or actions of your two colleagues as it occurred inside that house?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Xumalo, these two incidents as they were told by your colleague, Mr Motjale, do you agree with everything that he has said or is there anything else that you would wish to add that you regard as of importance that the Committee should know about, relating to these two incidents?

MR XUMALO: There is nothing he left. I believe what he said is exactly as it happened.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you have anything else that does not relate to Mr Motjale, that you - an incident that only you were involved, that you wish to put before this Committee?

MR XUMALO: No.

MRS NHLAYISI: As you were sitting in the room and I believe you heard that a meeting will be facilitated between the victim and Mr Motjale, do you also wish to be part of that meeting in order to facilitate good relations between yourself and the victim?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That meeting goes further than personal relations, do you realise that?

MR XUMALO: I did not hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: That meeting in an attempt to facilitate good relations, goes further than merely personal relationships, do you understand that?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It goes much further, because it is an attempt to restore the fabric of society, not because you know each other, it is a bringing together of human beings as we should have been living all these years, and haven't been given the opportunity to do so,do you understand that?That is how important that meeting is.You are willing to attend such a meeting?

MR XUMALO: Yes, I am willing and prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, my instructions is similar in this position, the victim is not opposing the application, and the remarks that went for the first applicant, is also going for this applicant. Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Xumalo, the same question I asked Mr Motjale, you were following orders, you had no subjective knowledge of Qobani's activities, is that correct?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In your case also, I want to ask one or two questions. Would you agree that what has happened in the past especially in your area, if we look back on it now, it should not have happened? Not only your incident, but the general problem in the area? Would you agree it should not have happened?

MR XUMALO: Yes, I believe so.

CHAIRPERSON: And have you learnt from those mistakes?

MR XUMALO: Yes, I have learnt.

CHAIRPERSON: And that every effort, should similar problems arise, before we resort to killing each other, every effort must be made to solve those problems some other way? Would you agree?

MR XUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

MRS NHLAYISI: That was my applications for the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp have you got anything else set up?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, as far as I can establish my other colleagues don't have any matters that is ready for today. I am not quite sure what the position as far as Lawly Shane is, unfortunately he is not here, but if you would give me the opportunity, I can maybe inform during lunch time, I see it is one o'clock. It will take me five minutes sir, thank you sir.

MR SHANE: My first applicant is Mr Solomon Dlamini, his application appears on page 8. The application number is AM7134/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got an identity number for us?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, the applicant has an identity document, but it is at home at the present moment, with your permission I beg leave that we submit the identity document on Monday.

He confirms that the date of birth herein is correct, but we will further submit the ID on Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you prefer to use?

MR DLAMINI: Zulu.

SOLOMON DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. Mr Dlamini, if you press that button on your microphone, leave it on, because you are going to be talking most of the time. Yes, Mr Shane.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Which Section were you part of the Unit?

MR DLAMINI: At Tokoza Slovo Section.

MR SHANE: Who was your Commander?

MR DLAMINI: Blah was the Commander.

MR SHANE: Is Blah also known by the name of Mduduzi Moses Kubeka?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is the one.

MR SHANE: Since when were you part of the Unit, when did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR DLAMINI: In 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that name, I didn't quite get it. You can do so yourself?

MR SHANE: The name of Blah is Mduduzi Moses Kubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHANE: With me here, I've got your application and on page 9 on paragraph 9(a)(i) you said the acts that you are applying for is theft of firearms from Kliprivier police station and assault. In fact it shouldn't be theft, it should be armed robbery, assault and unlawful possession of arms and ammunition, do you confirm that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Do you know the date on which this incident occurred?

MR DLAMINI: 15th of December 1993.

MR SHANE: 15 December 1993? What happened on the 15th of December 1993?

MR DLAMINI: There were six of us. We left from Blah's place, headed for the Kliprivier police station. We went there with the intention of armed robbery. Four of us remained outside when we got there. Only myself and one other deceased person went inside. There were two police.

CHAIRPERSON: How many went in?

MR DLAMINI: There were only two of us who went inside. We found two policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the two that went in?

MR DLAMINI: It was myself and Themba.

CHAIRPERSON: Themba who?

MR DLAMINI: Sibeko.

MR SHANE: Then who are the four who remained outside?

MR DLAMINI: It was Mduduzi, Kage and Molefe as well as Serge Mokozi.

MR SHANE: Then Themba Sibeko and yourself got in to this police station, then the four others remained outside. What happened?

MR DLAMINI: We found two policemen, black policemen. I said to them we are asking for help. They wanted to know what kind of help we wanted and I told them that we have a breakdown, a motor vehicle breakdown and when they wanted to know where, I drew my firearm and pointed it at them.

Themba too had a firearm. We then instructed them to lay on the floor. After that, we took the firearms that they had. We took the firearms that they had in their possession. Mduduzi, Molefe and the other one came in. We wanted to know where the other firearms were.

We wanted to know from these policemen where the other firearms were because we only found three firearms from them, two pistols as well as an R5. They became stubborn. We tried to scare them, beating them up and promised them death.

They then told us that the firearms, the other firearms are in the safe. We demanded the keys to the safe. They gave us the keys. They showed us the key, we ordered one of them to stand up and that was the one who was led to the safe to open it himself. Indeed, we found the firearms there in the safe. We found palm guns, six of them. Six palm guns, three R1's, four pistols. We then tore a wire, we then disconnected the telephone wire. We then left.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the policemen?

MR DLAMINI: We left them there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tie them up or ...

MR DLAMINI: No, we did not.

MR SHANE: Who commanded this operation sir?

MR DLAMINI: Mduduzi.

MR SHANE: Why did you specifically target this Kliprivier police station?

MR DLAMINI: It was an easy target.

MR SHANE: Explain.

MR DLAMINI: It was an easy target, it did not have many policemen.

MR SHANE: Were you all armed on that particular day?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SHANE: If you were armed and your intention was to go and rob these arms and ammunitions, did you foresee that the police officers who were at that police station, would if resisting, would get hurt or would eventually die?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we did think about that but then we were also armed. We wanted these firearms from the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you do what was necessary to obtain those firearms?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Do you what ultimately happened to the arms and ammunition that you robbed that particular day?

MR DLAMINI: We used these firearms for the protection of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left the police station with all these firearms, what did you do with that?

MR DLAMINI: We gave these firearms to Blah and he in turn gave it to our soldiers, gave these firearms to our soldiers.

MR SHANE: The arms that were distributed by Blah, that is the arms that you robbed at the police station, will you agree with me that they were also used in all these violent activities that occurred during the period 1993 to the end of the violence in mid-1994?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: And you associate yourself with the results that came about as a result of those arms, that is the murders and the injuries that were caused?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you associate yourself with the crimes committed in the process of stealing those firearms?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: If you were to know the identity of the police officers that you assaulted, threatened when you robbed these arms, would you take that opportunity and try to express your words of regret, that you are sorry for what you did on that particular evening, on that particular day?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I would apologise to them.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, through the evidence it transpired that a telephone wire was cut and as a result, it constitutes malicious damage to property. I would request that it be added as a further application in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: ... telephone wires, as I understand your evidence, it was part and parcel of this whole action?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct. We wanted to be safe until we were out of the place.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't have any questions, except to confirm that we have received information from the police that there was actually police officers injured on the scene. That was all that we received.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we not aware of the identities of those?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I was informed that the specific incident could not be further traced, except that an incident occurred where police officers were injured. Thank you sir.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that the Commander, once he received the firearms, he distributed it to the soldiers of the Unit?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that that was going to happen when you went on the operation?

MR DLAMINI: Yes. We already knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you associated yourself with such distribution of firearms?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You had no right to do so, no legal right?

MR DLAMINI: What right?

CHAIRPERSON: To distribute firearms? I am talking about legal right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did not have that right.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation in Tokoza today?

MR DLAMINI: The situation is back to normal today.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you feel about that fact?

MR DLAMINI: I am free.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think of institutions like police stations today? Are they necessary in our society?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they are important for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Should they be respected?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they should be respected.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that in the violence that occurred during that time, and in particular I am talking about the Tokoza area, many people died?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, many people died.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree we should avoid a repetition of that in future?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And that our people irrespective of their political affiliations, should live in peace together?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have there been lessons to be learnt from the previous experience do you think?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, so many lessons.

CHAIRPERSON: And have we learnt from them?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we have learnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR SHANE: My next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mduduzi Moses Kubeka. His application appears on page 15. The application number is AM7662/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kubeka, which language would you prefer to use?

MR KUBEKA: Zulu.

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kubeka, are you also known as Blah?

MR KUBEKA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you confirm his identity number please Mr Shane?

MR SHANE: Mr Kubeka, please correct me if I am wrong, is this your identity number, 551006 5258 08 2?

MR KUBEKA: Yes, those numbers are correct.

MR SHANE: Your answer to my first question that you are also known as Blah, did you say yes?

MR KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: The previous applicant, that is Mr Dlamini, Solomon Dlamini, indicated to us that you were his Commander, is that correct?

MR KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He further testified to the effect that you issued out instructions that Kliprivier police station had to be robbed, is that correct?

MR KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He further stated that there were six of you and you were all armed, is that correct?

MR KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He said that had there been any resistance from the police officers at that police station, you would have force to an extent that your aim was to go back to the township with those arms and ammunitions, do you confirm that?

MR KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He further stated that you remained outside with three others, whilst he and Themba Sibeko went in and assaulted the said officers and robbed them of the firearms. Do you associate yourself with those activities?

MR KUBEKA: Very much so.

MR SHANE: He said those arms were given over to you and you in turn, in return you distributed those arms to the community, do you confirm that?

MR KUBEKA: Yes, I took these firearms and handed them over to the soldiers to protect the community.

MR SHANE: Do you confirm any other thing that he said in as far as it relates to you?

MR KUBEKA: Yes.

MR SHANE: Is there anything that you would want to add that you think he might have left out in his evidence?

MR KUBEKA: No.

MR SHANE: If you were to know the police officers that were harassed or that were attacked on that particular day, will you take that opportunity to reconcile with them?

MR KUBEKA: Very much so.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Kubeka, in your application form you talk of general defensive actions and I assumed that this particular one you have just dealt with one of many, are you going to supplement as the Commander of a particular area, are you going to be supplementing your current application at all, you know vis-a-vis the other things that you may have done. Your name has come up quite a few times and I don't know if you know the detail of those particular applications, and whether you are intending in this general application of yours, to mention those incidents as well?

MR KUBEKA: What I can say something that may not be part of this form, is that I was a Commander of the soldiers. We were at a battle field. If one were a Commander, there is, I can say there is nothing specific that I can refer to.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of any details of other incidents which you may have ordered some of your soldiers to commit? Can you remember?

MR KUBEKA: No. I cannot remember. It has been a long time now.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I accept that. You see, I just want to point out to you that there are other applicants who testified here about incidents that they had committed and they have also said that you were the Commander of that Unit.

They may not have said that there was a plan or a meeting in which you were present, where they decided to do certain things, so I am not too sure, whether you were involved in such incidents or not. I thought it best to raise it with you, just in case you - you've got an opportunity now to apply for those. If you were not involved, then so be it.

I don't know if your Attorney wants a few minutes to check with you.

MR SHANE: I would appreciate that very much Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, I have consulted my client and my instructions are that as far as he knows, there are no other incidents where he issued out commands, except for this one. He remembers this one very well. Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kubeka, you seem to have been a respected leader in a small way there in Tokoza. What seems to be the situation there now as far as fighting and violence is concerned?

MR KUBEKA: The situation is very acceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any chance of a repeat of this, there?

MR KUBEKA: No, that will never occur ever, because the situation is under a watchful eye now.

CHAIRPERSON: And the lessons that had been learnt from them, are they such that one can avoid a repetition of this problem?

MR KUBEKA: Yes, they are our brothers. We are living together.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR SHANE: The next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mr Christopher Ngcobo, his application appears on page 86. The application number is AM7669/97.

Again Mr Chairman, in this application, there is no identity document number and Mr Ngcobo instructed me that his ID book is at home, and we beg leave that we submit it on Monday as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngcobo, what language would you prefer to use?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot lift my right hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Just say, so help me, God.

CHRISTOPHER NGCOBO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngcobo, were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit in Penduka?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Is this Section also known as Tambo Slovo?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Here in your application, you state that your address is 942 Nqala Section, Katlehong. Do you have an explanation thereof?

MR NGCOBO: Yes. Nqala is separated by a furrow.

MR SHANE: So, will I be correct that you were actively involved in the incidents of Penduka?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Were you listening to the testimony or the evidence of Mr Solomon Dlamini?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR SHANE: Was your name also mentioned amongst the people who went to rob firearms at the Kliprivier police station?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR SHANE: Were you part of the group that remained outside of the police station while Mr Dlamini and Themba Sibeko got into the police station?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR SHANE: Do you associate yourself with their conduct, that is the conduct of Mr Dlamini and Themba Sibeko?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR SHANE: Is there any other thing that you would want to add that you feel Mr Dlamini has left out of his evidence?

MR NGCOBO: No, there is nothing at all. I think he must have forgotten that, I think he forgot the fourth person, there were four of us outside. Yes, there were four of us outside.

MR SHANE: If you were to be given a chance to reconcile with the victims of your incident, would you take that opportunity to do so?

MR NGCOBO: Very much so.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you known by another name?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

MR NGCOBO: Khethi.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell it.

MR SHANE: Is there any other thing that you would want to add sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Spell that name.

MR NGCOBO: Khethi.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Is there any other thing that you would want to add sir?

MR NGCOBO: No, I think that is about all.

MR SHANE: Do you confirm everything that he said to be a true version of what actually happened on that particular day?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I confirm that.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You are excused.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, that would conclude my applications for the day. May I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to find out if Mr Steenkamp can get hold of you at any time?

ADV STEENKAMP: I can Mr Chairman.

MR SHANE: Pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I am finding out if Mr Steenkamp can contact you at any time. You are excused as well.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't want to have the last word, but I have consulted and spoken to all my colleagues, including Mr Shane, detailing in an attempt to have enough information to prepare the roll for the next week, I have a very clear idea at this moment which cases are going to be heard and which are not going to be heard.

There is unfortunate certain matters which all my learned colleagues still have to be in a position to consult, they still have to meet certain applicants. At this moment, this is including Mr Sanje Makanjee, who is not here - well, he is here today, but he didn't appear today, which is about, I would guess about eight to nine matters.

My suggestion to you Mr Chairman, that on Monday I can just put on record that Mr Lawly Shane informed me just now, that he will be only available and ready to continue next week, which will probably be Monday or some time next week, he was not in a position to put a date or a time exactly when he will be ready.

There is however, certain other matters that we can start with on Monday, which my colleagues have prepared already. I would suggest for the rest of the week Mr Chairman, there is no hearable or matters that is ready for today and I would suggest that we continue with this hearing and with the roll, on Monday if that suits you. Obviously we are in your hands, Mr Chairman. Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we then have to adjourn till Monday morning, nine o'clock.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.