CHAIRPERSON: For the record it's Tuesday the 18th of May 1999. It is the continuation of the amnesty application of WHJ Coetzee and Others, in respect of the matter - Simelane.

Mr van den Berg you had to consult and see whether you have any further questions.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can I express my gratitude that we started a little later this morning. It enabled me just to give some feedback to my clients in respect of the consultations that took place yesterday afternoon and then early this morning. I do have some questions arising from my consultations with Gilbert Twale and Nodumo Nkosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

WILLEM HELM J COETZEE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: (cont)

Mr Coetzee what did Nokuthula tell you about what her mission here in South Africa was? What was she doing here.

MR W H J COETZEE: If I remember correctly she joined with various persons, among others the group which we handled with both a military political background and orders.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It was then a contact with a group called Scotch and Frank?

MR W H J COETZEE: There were also other persons of whom I can no longer recall the particulars.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you describe the approximate vicinity where they were situated?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was in Soweto, and I speak under correction, and the Pretoria environment.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I put it to you that Miss Simelane was tasked by Mpho, that is his MK name, his correct name is Gilbert Twala, to make contact here with the unit consisting of Scotch and Frank, and this was for the purposes of establishing a communications network. Is it your evidence that she would have given instructions to Scotch, pertinently related to the bomb explosions at Bryanston and Fairlands?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson her contact was directly and indirectly related to their military oriented activities and the RSA as an underground unit of the MK machinery in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Chairperson may I perhaps enquire, through the Chair, who Scotch and Frank are, because these are new names that we are now hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would assist me as well. Either you or the witness.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I clarify it. Is it correct that the person Scotch was Terror Mkhonza?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And is it correct that the person with the MK name, Frank, was a Sergeant Langa?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And they operated as a front MK organisation?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I am indebted to my colleague, Mr Visser.

The bomb explosions at Bryanston and Fairlands, did these instructions come through Nokuthula Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was related directly and indirectly to the involvement of these persons and their infiltration and orders from Swaziland.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee please. Will you please try to give us a simple answer. Did Miss Simelane bring instructions for these two individuals to attack those places?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was target action, yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these targets specifically identified?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes these were identified targets.

CHAIRPERSON: So she came with the order that they were to attack these specific targets?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, and it was later cleared with a follow-up visit to Swaziland.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Twala has told me that the orders to Nokuthula Simelane were merely about the communications network and that there were no instructions with regard to targets and that there had been no operational instructions of any nature whatsoever. Can you dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Furthermore she only had communication with one other unit in the Vaal Triangle, and she was given pertinent instructions not to liaise with that group during this visit, can you dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can no longer recall the details of her visit.

MR VAN DEN BERG: She was sent by Mpho or Gilbert Twala. His recollection is that he sent her on Wednesday and that she arrived in Soweto on either the Wednesday or the Thursday. You would probably not know about that.

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have said Chairperson, I can no longer recall everything regarding the details of her visit and her movements.

ADV DE JAGER: You would never know what he told her, what Mr Mpho told her, except insofar as she may have told you that she received these instructions. Were you present when Mr Mpho gave her the instructions?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Therefore you don't know what those instructions were.

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: However, she did make certain admissions to you later.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And these admissions, which she made to you are they correlating with the statement that is being put to you that Mr Mpho sent her on a Wednesday and that she arrived here either on the Wednesday or the Thursday. Do you know anything about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, it does not correlate.

ADV GCABASHE: Like then you also had agents Mkhonza and agent Langa who were part of your Swaziland network.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And you may have gleaned certain information from them as well.

MR W H J COETZEE: Certainly in terms of the orders which were given to them.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you glean from them any information about when Nokuthula Simelane would be arriving? The questions that have been asked by Mr van den Berg.

MR W H J COETZEE: They were unaware of when precisely she would have come to the RSA. They only had information pertaining to the date, time and place of rendezvous.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then Scotch and Frank, or Mkhonza and Langa would not have known about where she would be accommodated?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That information about Duma Nkosi you only obtained from her once you interrogated her.

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did she provide any other information regarding Duma Nkosi?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson as I have said I can longer recall everything except that I know that the particular person was involved in cell structures which existed within the country and who all the members were I cannot comment about.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you receive any information from her with regard to the members of Nkosi's cell structure?

MR W H J COETZEE: Names were mentioned and there were also names which she later identified. However, I cannot comment regarding that because we did not address the Duma information thereafter.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just as the Security police functioned on a need-to-know basis the ANC also operated on a need-to-know basis.

MR W H J COETZEE: I agree with you, but they also made many mistakes, just like the SAP.

MR VAN DEN BERG: She was accommodated by Duma Nkosi. He gave her no information regarding the work which he had performed for the ANC and he pertinently did not give her any information regarding the cells which he had co-ordinated or the members of those cells. You cannot dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, we are speaking of her capability and her information which she obtained from her missions within the country as well as outside the country.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Nokuthula Simelane stayed with Duma Nkosi only once in his home.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot give any more detailed commentary about the Duma Nkosi issue.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you able, however, to indicate when the Nkosi issue came up during the interrogation? Very early on, very late in the interrogation?

MR W H J COETZEE: If I recall correctly it would have been during the course of the interrogation.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but please Mr Coetzee you are being asked when, now you say during the course of the investigation. This investigation took at least five weeks. You are being asked whether or not this took place at the beginning or at the end. Please listen to the question and try to help us and tell us whether this was during the first week or the last week.

MR W H J COETZEE: I beg your pardon Chairperson. I would say that it would have been immediately after the arrest and during the recruitment, that would have been during the first week, where we must have, and did, confront her with a multiplicity of facts, but primarily pertaining to the MK and military aspects which we were handling in co-operation with her.

ADV GCABASHE: The short answer is in the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, if I can recall correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And that was the first time that you obtained information regarding Duma Nkosi?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I think that he was well known in Soweto as a result of his activities.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If we study your amnesty application you say that as a result of the information which Nokuthula Simelane provided there were two consequences, and I refer you to page 276 of Bundle 2.

The next arrest which has to do with, among others, the following, that would be the arrest of MK, Mpho, and we saw his photograph yesterday, and I put it to you that that Mpho is not the Mpho who was her handler. You cannot dispute that.

MR W H J COETZEE: The two identities of those two persons are not known to me at this stage.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Then you mention a Cheche, who was that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot recall the real names of the person but I know that he was a member of that particular machinery.

MR VAN DEN BERG: These arrests, when did they take place?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can no longer recall the precise dates, but I know that the first case was two weeks after we had abducted Simelane, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The first case, was that Mpho or Cheche?

MR W H J COETZEE: The first case was Mpho, if I recall correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the arrest of Cheche, when did that take place?

MR W H J COETZEE: That took place at a later stage. I cannot recall the exact date of the arrests.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it during October, November or December of 1983, or later than that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson it could possibly have started in early December and run through to January of 1984.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Because, as I understand it, Cheche was also known as Wally. Do you know about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, we only knew him as Cheche.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And elsewhere in the documents he has been identified as Ngide, that was his real name.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, yes, that is his real name.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you then dispute that he was arrested on the 25th of March, 1984?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have already stated, Chairperson, I can no longer recall the exact dates, but I know that I did arrest a person.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So it was a full six months after the abduction?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, those are the cases that I can recall.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And his arrest led to numerous other arrests including that of Duma Nkosi?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, I did not manage that investigation. I simply arrested the man and gave him over to an investigative unit who would conduct the necessary follow-up work and arrests.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you still recall where he was detained?

MR W H J COETZEE: I did not detain him, neither did I interrogate him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Secondly you mention actions taken against the Sasol MK sabotage grouping. That's page 276 that I am referring you to again. Can you elaborate on that?

MR W H J COETZEE: That is on the hand of information which was given by Simelane.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And who were the members of this Sasol MK sabotage group?

MR W H J COETZEE: Their group and activities is no longer clear to me but I know they were a notorious group led by Barney Molekwane.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So the information which you received from her led to this action against Barney Molekwane?

MR W H J COETZEE: We are speaking directly and indirectly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did it also lead to the death of Barney Molekwane?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that. I was not involved in the incident.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I do not have the precise date of his death because it is also not known to the family but it took place during November 1985.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment regarding that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Twala says that after he re-established contact with Duma Nkosi, well let me just take a few steps back. I apologise.

The order to Nokuthula was to establish contact between her and Mpho on the Friday before the meeting with Scotch was to take place. And you would surely not know about that.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, as I have already said I can no longer recall of her movements before the action.

MR VAN DEN BERG: There was no communication between her and Mpho on that Friday. You cannot dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that. As I have said I can no longer recall the detail of the communication among the various subjects.

MR VAN DEN BERG: On the day of the contact with Scotch, and according to Mr Twala this was on a Saturday, I think that agrees with your evidence.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The incident took place on a Saturday?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: She did not return to the Nkosi household because she was in your custody.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: A few days later Mr Twala once again attempted to communicate with Nkosi and the information was then communicated to him that the lady had vanished. That she had not returned. I think I put it to you first that it was the next day, but indeed it was several days later. Once again you would not know about that communication.

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: He did not have contact with Miss Simelane again. She never returned to Swaziland. She never attempted to contact him again.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson yesterday, during my earlier evidence, I referred to the fact that we had identified Nkosi to manage her strategic replacements in Swaziland and to use the person as a scapegoat in order to manage our intelligence capacity and our group and to fortify it.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know anything about the relationship between Mr Nkosi and Mr Twala, do you know about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I no longer recall in detail what was told to us and I was not involved in later investigations, and that is why I cannot comment regarding that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You see they were together at school for a period of time. Later Mr Twala left the country for military training. Mr Nkosi completed his schooling in Swaziland. They were good friends and in Swaziland they re-established that contact. Mr Nkosi agreed to assist the ANC. He was a supporter and a member and he from time-to-time he would be in Swaziland to take instructions and to convey instructions to his cell structure. They were very good friends and the level of trust was very high. Did you have any knowledge about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, not about the background.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So the cover-up, or cover story which indicated that Nkosi was a problem would not have worked?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment about that. Depending upon how it was managed, yes Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know a Mpumi Dlamini?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I can no longer recall all the names because we dealt with a wealth of names which indicated true identities and MK identities.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What was the information which led to the arrest of Cheche?

MR W H J COETZEE: It emanated from our own intelligence capacity and the access which Mr Langa had among their ranks.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You stated that Nokuthula Simelane had two handlers. That would be Mpho, whom we have already discussed, and he was also known as Gilbert Twala, but the other handler you have stated that you cannot recall who it was. If I recall correctly you said that it was an Indian man and a white woman.

MR W H J COETZEE: She did refer to training in Mozambique in which a white woman and an Indian man had been involved.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And as one of the more high profile members of the ANC you would have remembered the name ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja ...(intervention)

MR VAN DEN BERG: .... for example Mac Maharaj or Indress Naidoo?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, the names which we identified were identified as a result of the terrorist photo album and on the basis of their MK identities. However, there were several persons whose identities we could never establish, if I recall correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you did not connect her with Aboobaker Ismail or Rashid?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, no Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman if you would just give me a moment to look at my notes. I don't think I have any further questions.

The hand-written notes which were taken during the interrogation and the notes which she made for you, were those filed?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And those were part of her file which was registered at the Soweto Security branch?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That file surely does not exist anymore?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that because later I was transferred from Soweto.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When you were transferred?

MR W H J COETZEE: At the end of 1987.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And to where were you transferred?

MR W H J COETZEE: To Pretoria Head Office.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Pretoria Head Office of the Security Branch?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then you would probably know about the evidence of Brigadier Cronje and his group who applied regarding the fact that files were destroyed?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was commonly known and this aspect is also confirmed by the media.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So if I understand it correctly there would be no written proof that she was registered as an informer?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot say anything about that because I was not involved in the process.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I cannot recall whether or not I put this to you or not, but if your evidence is correct then she would have returned to Swaziland and she would once again have been accommodated with her family.

MR W H J COETZEE: It wasn't about the family. Yesterday I gave evidence that the objective was to make contact and I indicated that she was to continue with the cell grouping of which she was actually a member. I also mentioned that she was sent in by somebody who was not authorised and that she did not tell this to her initial handlers and that they were unaware of the fact that somebody else was using her. And that is that in a nutshell.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Because her family never saw her again. She never arrived back at the home of her uncles where she lived from time-to-time and her family and her friends never saw her again either.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that. I cannot comment on what happened after her release and after her replacement in Swaziland. I have already said yesterday that appointments were not honoured and the circumstances for which she had to account with persons in Swaziland are unknown to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Coetzee how old was Miss Simelane when she was in your custody?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I would estimate that she was in her twenties, approximately 23 years old, but I cannot recall her exact age.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was her physical build?

MR W H J COETZEE: She was slender.

CHAIRPERSON: So one would not have described her as a strong person?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She was a twenty something, slender ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, I would agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that when you confronted her at the Carlton Centre she was nervous?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was when I joined in for the first time after we tackled her and grabbed her. That was when she was nervous. On various occasions she appeared to be nervous.

CHAIRPERSON: But from the very beginning?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, from the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: And upon various occasions thereafter?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, upon various occasions because it was about her own circumstances within the ranks of the relevant groups.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understand you correctly you said that as a result of that initial contact with her and her nervous reaction you held the opinion that you would be able to undertake a successful turning action on her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly, please correct me if I am wrong, did you slap her around in the vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that?

MR W H J COETZEE: To intimidate her and to obtain her co-operation. I would refer to that as part of my own handling methodology, the manner in which I worked.

CHAIRPERSON: You first slap and then hit?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and I think that some of the members will testify that that was my handling methodology.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did you slap her?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can't recall but I know that I have said that upon various occasions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No we'll get to that later, we are speaking of the first contact now.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was just a few slaps?

MR W H J COETZEE: Well if I had to give a number of slaps it will be two or three.

CHAIRPERSON: Through the face?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, in her face.

CHAIRPERSON: And you felt that that was sufficient?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't necessary for you to intimidate her any further?

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage she answered the questions that we were putting to her.

CHAIRPERSON: So basically it took two slaps in the face and then she would be sufficiently intimidated and co-operated with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she do, did she cry?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't she fight back?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, not after the arrest and not at that stage when she was seated in the car with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. So then if I understand you correctly, for the first week she was repeatedly assaulted?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes in my presence. I confirmed yesterday that she was also assaulted by the other members. That this could have been possible.

CHAIRPERSON: No we will only discuss what you can give evidence about. In your presence during that first week she was assaulted numerous times.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I also addressed the possibility that I may have slapped her on occasion thereafter when the input questions were put to her but that was upon certain occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Those assaults during the first week, were they serious assaults?

MR W H J COETZEE: I have already stated that we bagged her, we hit her with a fist and we slapped her. There is the possibility that she may have been kicked, but at this stage I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but was it serious?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I would say so to a certain degree.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was repeated assault?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson a person had to be broken first in order to rebuild them thereafter in order to establish a situation of trust between the parties.

CHAIRPERSON: So after that first intimidation in the vehicle she co-operated and then after that became difficult again?

MR W H J COETZEE: We handled her in various facets. She had a wealth of information with regard to persons whose photos were in the terrorist photo album, who had already been identified as a result of their external military training as well as information that she had heard, and information that she had gained from things she had seen, so there were many aspects on the table.

CHAIRPERSON: But I am asking you what her reaction was when you had her on the farm, in the middle of nowhere, in a single room, with a whole big group of you, did she not cooperate?

MR W H J COETZEE: No she co-operated. She co-operated to such an extent that we gave her the pen and paper to write with.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Regardless of that these assaults took place consistently during the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were serious?

MR W H J COETZEE: Upon various occasions in the first week of her presence on the farm, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And serious enough that you would be prepared to describe it as torture? That is what appears in Exhibit T.

MR W H J COETZEE: I would then put it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: So you tortured her for a week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes. It boils down to that.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many of you were involved?

MR W H J COETZEE: We rotated.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the average number of your police presence?

MR W H J COETZEE: Normally two to three. It may have varied to four. I can no longer recall but I do know with regard to the occasion that I was present there, we were only two, and that was during the later stages.

CHAIRPERSON: And all of you handled her?

MR W H J COETZEE: If I recall everybody participated.

CHAIRPERSON: So everybody participated in the assaults?

MR W H J COETZEE: Whether direct or indirectly or whether they struck her or whether they held her back, all of these things would have taken place with my authorisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words you were the member who was in control of the situation?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you also the chief attacker?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have already said I wouldn't say that I was - or least yes, I would say that I was the chief agent of assault. Yes, because I undertook the objective questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you assault and torture her the whole week long?

MR W H J COETZEE: We reached very sensitive aspects and I have referred to the fact that we had to break her and re-build her. We had to establish that situation of trust. We had to be able to access the entire circumference of the data which she had at her disposal. We had to get her to the point where she would implicate herself so that we could build upon that and give her future oriented tasks thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: But what I don't understand, and the reason why I am questioning you is that you said when you had her on her own on the farm there she co-operated, so why did the torture and the assault have to continue for the entire week?

MR W H J COETZEE: I have referred to the fact that we dealt with various aspects, various persons and cell structures of which she had knowledge, of which she had heard as a result of the fact that the ANC structures also made mistakes, just like the SAP did when it came to identifying structures and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this just simply part of the working method?

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage it was necessitated as a result of the need to establish the total amount of information that she had at her disposal, and also with the purpose of rebuilding her and recreating her attitude towards the situation. The assaults must have a contributed to a certain measure in the achievement of this objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this help to rebuild the relationship between you and her?

MR W H J COETZEE: There was a certain point where you would place a person under pressure, or sometimes you would be concessive towards that person and build and you would be building in order to re-establish the attitude and the partnership between the two persons.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would do this by means of an assault?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was after assaults, it was only after assaults that one would become concessive and begin to recruit that particular person and have long and lengthy discussions with that person, and to indicate the other side of the story to the person and to give them the assurance, in terms of their future in the event of them co-operating or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she refuse to give information during the first week on the farm?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, but it was about the in-depth knowledge that she had regarding certain subject.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words was it necessary for you to assault or torture her in order to obtain information from her or not?

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it necessary?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes it was necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: With all of them?

MR W H J COETZEE: The fierce psychosis which they had in terms of revealing the knowledge that they had was, according to my perspective, very intimidating and to a certain extent they suffered from a fear psychosis as a result of the feared action against them should they in such a case expose the military activities and networks Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So were there opportunities, I am just trying to establish what happened, were there opportunities or occasions upon which she refused to give you this information after which you would assault her and then she would give you the information?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have said a few moments ago, at times when she did not give all the information which she had and retained certain information ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You would then hit her in order to get that information?

MR W H J COETZEE: In order to extract the in-depth information from her, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So in order to extract that which she was holding back you would hit her, the whole week long?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes. When I say the week I don't indicate that this was consistent. It took place on isolated occasions. It was not a fluid, continuous torture or assault.

CHAIRPERSON: And after the first week things improved?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the very worst you may have given her the odd slap here and there?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But nothing more grave than that?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that her face was swollen?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it swollen?

MR W H J COETZEE: From slaps.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that she would have been hit so violently with an open hand that her face would have swollen?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it her whole face or what part of her face?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot recall specifically but what I remember is that it was her eye. I guess it depends upon which side of the face I struck her. I cannot recall directly but I do confirm that her eye or her eye bank was swollen.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one of the eye banks?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes. I cannot recall precisely in terms of which eye or whether or not it was both eye banks that were swollen.

CHAIRPERSON: So you hit her with conviction?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, I hit her hard.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that first week did you arrange any medical treatment for her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes if she had any kind of headache she would receive headache tablets.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get a doctor in for her?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR W H J COETZEE: Because her injuries were not open injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give her pain killers?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: If she had headaches, yes, because you must remember she was under a great deal of pressure. She was making revelations about her entire involvement as well as the involvement of others. I've already told you Chairperson that there was that psychosis of fear and it was a very well known fact that these persons who were involved had to be revealed.

CHAIRPERSON: But those pain killers would they have been provided after the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall specifically when but I do know that during the build-up process of the person we did indeed, or at least I did when I was there, provide medication in the form of headache tablets if she requested it.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long would that have been?

MR W H J COETZEE: That would have been during the reconstruction process.

CHAIRPERSON: So that would have been after the period of assault?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So during the period of assault you gave her nothing?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she complain of any pain?

MR W H J COETZEE: Her headaches, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about the first week.

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson I cannot recall anything.

CHAIRPERSON: She didn't complain of any kind of pain during the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: She may have complained to somebody but it wasn't to me.

CHAIRPERSON: So during that period that she was in your custody she did not see a physician?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I recall your evidence correctly, there was no reason to seriously assault her after the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So if anybody had seriously assaulted her after that week it would have been completely unjustifiable?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes if I had not known about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And according to you would it have been necessary to assault her to such an extent that she would be rendered barely recognisable?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: That would not have been justifiable.

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Or to assault her to such an extent that she would not be able to walk by herself, that would not have been fair?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you see whether or not she had bled at any stage?

MR W H J COETZEE: I remember after the arrest at the Carlton, yes, I think that she had an injured lip or nose, but apart from that, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a cut wound?

MR W H J COETZEE: It may have been a lip bite or something like that. I cannot qualify it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she not bleed again after that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No she did not have any such open injury or wound.

CHAIRPERSON: If there had been a consistent assault on Miss Simelane after that first week almost until the time that she left the farm, would you have been aware of it?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you could unequivocally tell us ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: ....that she was assaulted as we have described in a form of torture after which the reconstruction process began. There were more important things at stake.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can tell us unequivocally that after that first week there was absolutely no further serious assault on Miss Simelane in your presence?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and as I have already indicated that I periodically slapped her during interrogations and the compilation of documents in which she participated with regard to certain aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but that was less serious.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well I understand. Thank you Mr Coetzee.

ADV GCABASHE: On the same point Mr Coetzee, when then would you say the interrogation of Nokuthula Simelane stopped? At the end of the first week? At the end of the second week?

MR W H J COETZEE: I would like to say it in the following - it was a continuous, we were getting information from her and supporting it as she wrote it herself in the form of several statements. Information subjects which were identified which she put in writing which we had to use for later tasking and the management of herself as well as the agents who were already in the field. Does that answer your question?

ADV GCABASHE: No it doesn't. The first week, the second week - I mean you have now explained in detail ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: The interrogation in terms ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: The interrogation of Nokuthula Simelane you've explained that you managed to get certain information from her and you've also explained that at the time you had to do the rebuilding exercise, yes? The rebuilding exercise. Am I speaking too softly?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Oh okay I will talk a bit louder. What I would like to know is when did the actual interrogation stop? She was at the farm for about four to five weeks.

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say, as I have said, after the first week, but there were periods when I slapped her myself where we differed in terms of the subjects which she had put down in writing.

ADV GCABASHE: Now these slaps and this disinformation she was giving you, you don't call that part of the interrogation?

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say yes. I'd say it was part of the interrogation.

ADV GCABASHE: This is precisely why I would like you to identify the period where you felt you had the material information you needed and when the rebuilding started, because your plan was to send her back to Swaziland.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes that's correct Chairperson. That was done when I was there periodically along with Sergeant Mothiba or with Mr Pretorius or Sergeant Mong. We have to keep in mind that Simelane was willing to cooperate with us. She had certain requests surrounding her own personal and operational security, so it was done continuous from about the third week Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: So let's get this right Mr Coetzee. From the third week at the farm you no longer interrogated her?

MR W H J COETZEE: We were still busy. I don't know how you interpret it but with the set-up and the establishment of the inputs Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: I really would like to get this absolutely clear because you talk of a rebuilding and I am just trying to put that into perspective. I have assumed that with the rebuilding you no longer assaulted her. Is that a fair assumption?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Right. Let's work backwards from the rebuilding because after rebuilding you released her, and that is correct as well?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's work backwards to when the interrogation would have stopped when she was now just orientating herself to being part of your new unit. Can I just finish because I really want this crystal clear. At that stage she would no longer fear you; she would no longer feel intimidated by you; she would be able to speak to you about your plan; the plans you had for her, etc, etc. That's what I am trying to get right.

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say that periodically during the third week Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now during these last two weeks in that case, because that leaves us with two weeks on the farm before you release her, what did you discuss? This rebuilding exercise.

MR W H J COETZEE: Her operational or her continual cross-border application as a source. That is what we discussed.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, now give us a little bit of detail on that aspect.

MR W H J COETZEE: It was communication; it was tasking ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Let me help you because what you are saying now you have said before in your evidence, let me just help you with specific questions.

You for instance had two agents in the MK structures in Swaziland, Mr Mkhonza, Mr Langa, yes?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes and others who were not mentioned.

ADV GCABASHE: Absolutely, absolutely. Now did you discuss, I'll start with these particular two whom we know, Mkhonza, Langa, did you discuss how they would be working with Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: Mr Mkhonza was not part of our programme Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see Mkhonza is of particular interest to me because that's the man she met at the Carlton Centre.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson but our planning was on Langa.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying Mkhonza would never, ever contact MK Mpho again? Is this what you are saying?

MR W H J COETZEE: It could have happened in future Chairperson, but we planned everything around Langa. We brought in Langa to independently with myself, Mothiba and Langa to sit with her and talk to her. This joins up with the reason why later we left her with Langa before the final debriefing session and the instructions that were given before she departed.

ADV GCABASHE: So she knew Langa who was like her, an agent working for you?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And she knew that she would be meeting Langa in Swaziland at some stage or the other?

MR W H J COETZEE: As one of the persons who would help to handle her, yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet you did not ask Langa to assist in monitoring her movements once she got back to Swaziland.

MR W H J COETZEE: I think I've said it earlier on, any direct request in terms of this person or questions would have caused problems for the person herself because of the unknown to us Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: No I, I...

MR W H J COETZEE: Questions about the lady by Mr Langa in Swaziland was very, very dangerous for the lady at that stage Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: We are not talking about questions about the lady by Langa, we are talking about Langa knowing everything there is to know about Simelane; knowing where she lived, essentially; knowing her contacts, because those were his contacts after all; and in that way being able to keep you in touch with how she was faring as your new agent. You didn't put any of that in place.

MR W H J COETZEE: Can the question please be repeated Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see I'll tell you where my difficulty starts. My difficulty starts with Simelane being left across the border at Oshoek, right.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: She could have done anything after that according to you.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the way I understand Intelligence networks to operate from what I have heard in these hearings, is you would normally have a safeguard, a check here, a check there to make sure that the person who is working with you is in fact your person isn't doing something totally different.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: In the instance of Simelane we haven't heard from you what steps you took to make sure that she was doing all of the things you had agreed with her about.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson this is where I referred to in my evidence yesterday to the meetings, the appointments or the instruction as we mentioned yesterday was that make contact and afterwards lay low in terms of the group who manage you and task you. Continue with your own cell grouping whom you are a member of Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Let me give you another little example. If she was having a particular difficulty did you say to her you can reach Langa, who is local after all?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I already mentioned my telephone number yesterday where she could have contacted me if there was any problems. If she encountered any problems which indicated that she could be identified and she could be connected to arrests and actions then she had to run. And we told all our agents this Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: With regard to other Intelligence services operating in Swaziland, Military Intelligence or any other units from the PWV area, who were you in contact with? Who did you co-ordinate your activities with?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was with head office Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but Military Intelligence that was busy in Swaziland you may have had other units from the greater PWV area or even Eastern Transvaal operating there, who did you co-ordinate your activities with?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson all reports were put in writing and from time-to-time they were co-ordinating meetings.

ADV GCABASHE: The information you got from Simelane were you able to talk to Military Intelligence and say this is what we are told, do you know anything about this? Can you confirm this for us?

MR W H J COETZEE: I never liaised with Military Intelligence. I do not know where the reports that we drew up were sent to.

ADV GCABASHE: So all the information that you worked off you did not confirm with any other unit? I just used Military Intelligence as an example.

MR W H J COETZEE: It was in writing and it was sent to head office Chairperson. Head office circulated it. It was sent to the different departments.

ADV GCABASHE: And head office was Mr Schoon at the time?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes amongst others Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Was Mkhonza in touch with Mpho after the arrest of Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can recall that we were slowly busy working out the handling programme with Langa and to bring in new persons in the structure across the border of whom Mkhonza did not know.

ADV GCABASHE: You haven't answered - really I was going to come to Langa. I just want Mkhonza ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: The question Chairperson I know that there was some occasion afterwards where Mr Mkhonza moved across the border but because of a motor vehicle accident and according to me that was the last opportunity that he was across the border.

ADV GCABASHE: So between the time of the car accident and the time of the arrest of Simelane or the detention of Simelane, how many times did you send Mkhonza in and out of Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson with regard to Simelane this particular grouping I could say that possibly twice but according to me once.

ADV GCABASHE: Now was he able to come back and confirm any of the things you had learnt from Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: For example?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, at the arrest of the first person shortly afterwards; the weapons which were channelled into the country for the purpose of target execution or actions against targets Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Then let's get to Langa, Langa was supposed to go and create the legend about the meeting between Mkhonza and Simelane, the plaster-of-paris story, yes?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You tasked him to go and do that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I did.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he come back with a report?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And what was that?

MR W H J COETZEE: The scope, I cannot recall the scope of it but all that I know is that afterwards the credibility was such that Langa shortly afterwards in person was met at a point in Soweto after which we acted against that person, arrested that person with eight limpet mines as well as handgrenades and TNT. This person was given to the investigative team to deal with him further on.

ADV GCABASHE: And you are saying that that was because of original material from Simelane? Or are you saying it was Simelane and other people who gave you material that you then put together and were able to arrest particular people on?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes it was a corroboration of all the information.

ADV GCABASHE: A range of sources?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: A range of sources?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I said directly and indirectly Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just this "kop draai" exercise, how long would that normally take you?

MR W H J COETZEE: Some of the members are present Chairperson, depending on the person and depending on the target and depending on the person's personal capacities and circumstances, it varies from person to person and is based on his own situation or his acceptability within the MK structure Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: It essentially involved beating a person into submission and then rebuilding them and incorporating them in your structures?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was my modus operandi Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's just talk about safe houses for a minute. There were a number of safe houses in the PWV area?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you said you in your evidence yesterday that you were not able to - there was no facility you could take Nokuthula Simelane to?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Explain that because there's an article - just hold on a minute, your document, Exhibit T, has an article with a range of safe houses in this area.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson those years there were not safe houses, only later it came about when Soweto was incorporated into the RS programme and for handlers and Intelligence units the capacity was built up to set up such houses, to hire these houses and to use these houses as offices.

At that stage we had no, but no facilities available. The mere fact Chairperson that we worked at Custodum tells you, and should be clear to the Committee that it was risky to start with to have agents, to take agents to a police premises Chairperson. We had no, but no access in those years to safe houses at all. This only came about from 1987 or no from 1985 or 1986 we were allowed to make use of such premises.

ADV GCABASHE: So you used the quarters at the Norwood police quarters?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja, and your own house as well.

ADV GCABASHE: Ja, but you actually lived at the Norwood Police quarters at the time.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: And these people who owned the farm are they family members of yours?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja, family.

ADV GCABASHE: How were you related to them?

MR W H J COETZEE: Through my wife.

ADV GCABASHE: In-laws?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just finally on this business of leg-cuffing and handcuffing Nokuthula Simelane, you know I can understand the earlier period when you would leg-cuff her, handcuff because she was not one of you yet, but from about the third week you were satisfied that she now was going to do as you asked her to do. Just go over again why you continued to leg and handcuff her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Why I kept the leg irons on her Chairperson as I have said yesterday was one - certainty; and two, it was my agreement with her that at a later occasion I would remove the leg irons when we were away from the premises and with her return, placing back; that was my agreement, that was my modus operandi. I think Chairperson Mr Mkhonza, who is present, and Mr Veyi can tell you about a similar incident where the member was a member of a police unit.

ADV GCABASHE: So irrespective of the fact that a person had agreed to work with you, you would continue to keep that person in leg irons?

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage there was no evidence. There was in words an agreement between myself and this person, but this person had to prove herself.

ADV GCABASHE: But this is precisely the point Mr Coetzee. This is the same person who you then immediately released back into Swaziland. One day she is in leg irons, the very next day she's back in Swaziland. This is the person who you have not had time to test in any way, whose loyalty you have not had time to test.

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have said previously that was my modus operandi. I facilitated it, or the person knew that I would remove the leg irons the day we moved away from the place and other members can also testify that that was modus operandi. That is the way I went about my work. And people differ in their way of work.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying, and correct me if I didn't understand the evidence, she would use the toilet outside in the veld, so up to the last day she was on the farm she would walk in these leg irons to the toilet in the veld and walk back again, because this was your agreement with her, that those leg irons would not come off until she left the farm?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson because there were instances where people had run away, yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You needed interpreters during the interrogations, just a point I'd forgotten, what language did the interrogators use?

MR W H J COETZEE: English Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But you needed interpreters?

MR W H J COETZEE: When we, or can I refer to an example, when by the means of Mothiba or through a member specifically surrounding the recruitment, the orientation and the future it was always better with the authoritative figure Mothiba, to allow them to communicate in their own language.

ADV GCABASHE: She had completed her first degree at university, she was fluent in English.

MR W H J COETZEE: That is true, that is why she wrote down her own inputs.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet you felt for recruitment purposes she needed to be addressed in her own language?

MR W H J COETZEE: This is when we discussed the future with her and when Sergeant Mothiba, as the father figure, the authoritative figure, would be in discussion with her.

I can also imagine that with Langa's presence, who was a graduated person himself, they communicated in their own language.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one moment may I just ask you this one aspect Mr Coetzee. Did you ever have anything else but the words of this person that she will cooperate with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: I am not following you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You told my colleague when you spoke of the leg irons and the handcuffs that the only thing that you had was the words of this person.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes the words.

CHAIRPERSON: And that she had not proven herself ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: What I meant with this Chairperson she was not yet placed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand what you mean with that but I want to ask you at any stage did you have anything else but the words of the person?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I would say Chairperson in terms of the first arrest where she indirectly and directly was involved. This was the infiltration where the members who have to give evidence before the Committee will say how they joined up with me while I was with Nokuthula and afterwards I went directly back to Johannesburg. And indirectly and directly she co-operated.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I should put the question more directly. Up to the stage when you let her go at Oshoek Border Post did you have anything else ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage I was to some extent, if I may put it this way, I was convinced that we will keep her co-operation on the grounds of what was in writing and what she had said and knowing that she knew that we are in possession of all documents in terms of certain individuals or groups who were disclosed by her.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the strength of her words?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, this was in writing. Some of these aspects were already evaluated and we knew it was the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: But the conviction which you had was because of the words that she gave you?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to have more clarity with regard to the transport of her from the farm, where exactly was she taken to? Where was she handed over in Potchefstroom or where? Where did you transport her to in the panel van?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, Sergeant Mong will give evidence to that. We met her on the outskirts of Potchefstroom. Already at that stage we, myself and Supt Pretorius we were at another point with Langa.

ADV DE JAGER: I assume then from Rustenburg they drove to Potchefstroom. Is this past Ventersdorp?

MR W H J COETZEE: I believe so, that's the route.

ADV DE JAGER: You met them outside Potchefstroom?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Outside Potchefstroom there are two roads that lead to Johannesburg, the old Potchefstroom road that goes through Carltonville and the other one that comes directly south from Soweto, is that correct?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now where did you meet, where did you meet Mong?

MR W H J COETZEE: On the outskirts of Potchefstroom in the industrial area.

ADV DE JAGER: Now at this stage who was with Mong?

MR W H J COETZEE: I recall correctly Chairperson it was Sergeant Mothiba.

ADV DE JAGER: So the two of them transport the detainee from Thabazimbi to Potch?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: There you hand her over in your vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, in one of our vehicles, either mine or Supt Pretorius' vehicle, I cannot recall which vehicle was used that day.

ADV DE JAGER: And from there where was she taken to?

MR W H J COETZEE: By myself and Supt Pretorius with Langa, whom she already met was handed over to another vehicle directly.

ADV DE JAGER: Directly?

MR W H J COETZEE: Directly from the one vehicle to the other vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: So you drove with your or Pretorius' vehicle and you hand her over to the other vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Where was that vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: That vehicle was also outside Potchefstroom in the close vicinity, if I can recall correctly close to the Vereeniging off-ramp, the Potchefstroom/Vereeniging off-ramp.

ADV DE JAGER: How far outside Potchefstroom?

MR W H J COETZEE: This was before the bridge, according to my estimation it was about seven kilometres outside Potchefstroom.

ADV DE JAGER: And is this on the southern road, this is the road back, in other words back to Johannesburg?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: That comes in south of Soweto?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: This is not the one where you drive over Carltonville?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson I don't know that road.

ADV DE JAGER: And were you present when she was handed over to Langa? Did Langa drive that vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Langa alone or was somebody with him?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Langa was alone Chairperson, because Mothiba at that stage, the other handler was with Sergeant Mong.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did she sit in that vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: From what I can recall she sat in front in the vehicle and it was his vehicle that he was using.

ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle to which you handed her over where in your or Pretorius' vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: She was on the back seat Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: She was not loaded into the boot?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So from the panel van, where she could not see, she was transferred to a vehicle where she could identify her surroundings?

MR W H J COETZEE: Because of her own operational certainty we made her lie down on the back up to the place where we handed her over Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Did she still have handcuffs on at that stage?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, I already received her without handcuffs from Sergeant Mong and Sergeant Mothiba.

ADV DE JAGER: During her detention at Thabazimbi we assume she was there for approximately four to five weeks is that correct?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you estimate how long you spent there?

MR W H J COETZEE: That is very difficult because we were on a rotating basis. This was not the only aspect to which we attended to. We had several agents and we rotated on a continuous basis, but I was one of the primary persons.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you say you were there full-time for the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and afterwards a lot.

ADV DE JAGER: If you say a lot, do you go there and you stay there for a few days or do you go for a day and come back and go back again?

MR W H J COETZEE: I move in and I move out Chairperson. I sometimes slept over but by the final part of her presence there I slept there most of the time.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know where Westonaria is?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know if she visited anybody at Westonaria?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: I think Mr Lengene, page 413, says in his statement, paragraph 63 on page 412:

Then it's not clear, the following sentence does not follow. It seems that a page is missing here, but I am not sure but I am not sure if there's a page missing here.

Now it seems that the intention may be that they drove in a convoy to Westonaria and there they went to someone, who was probably your brother, where she was taken to the servant's quarters.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that Chairperson. I do not know what Lengene refers to.

ADV DE JAGER: Who is Sefuti?

MR W H J COETZEE: This was a member of the force. I don't know if he's still a member of the force and where he is. For a short period he was with us.

ADV DE JAGER: So he was a member of your - he was under your command?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Then he says:

MR W H J COETZEE: I have already said Chairperson where I have received her. I deny and I do not know what Lengene in this instance refers to.

ADV DE JAGER: But was Sefuti not present when you received her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Negative Chairperson. It was only the handling group as I have already stated, consisting of myself, Supt Pretorius, Sergeant Mong - this is where his involvement stopped, and Sergeant Mothiba and Sergeant Langa.

ADV DE JAGER: Mothiba's involvement stopped with Mong?

MR W H J COETZEE: Negative, Mothiba joined us in Johannesburg at the final debriefing and the transporting and the placing back of the particular person.

ADV DE JAGER: Hold on a moment. She is in Potchefstroom, she was handed over to Mong on the Vereeniging road, or to Langa.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did Langa go with her?

MR W H J COETZEE: They spent some time Chairperson, it was regarding the operational side of the matter, the motivation, communication, how she had to work operationally ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, how long was she in Langa's presence ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: Vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: Langa's vehicle or with him, before she went back to Swaziland.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson continually until the time that they departed.

ADV DE JAGER: Very well. They drive from this Vereeniging crossing, where do they go to?

MR W H J COETZEE: They moved in the direction of Johannesburg at a later stage.

ADV DE JAGER: Very well. They drove to Johannesburg, did they stay over in Johannesburg?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, it was late afternoon, if I recall correctly it was between six and seven. We met them outside Soweto Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So you joined them again, what was her condition then?

MR W H J COETZEE: She was in a good condition.

ADV DE JAGER: And she drives in the vehicle with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: She is uncuffed and she is with Langa in the vehicle Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: And from there where did you go to?

MR W H J COETZEE: They departed after we had discussion with her and they departed for Swaziland.

ADV DE JAGER: Directly?

MR W H J COETZEE: Directly, the same day.

ADV DE JAGER: The same day?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So she did not stay over in Johannesburg with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee did you have a brother at that stage?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he live in Westonaria?

MR W H J COETZEE: I don't know if it was Westonaria but it was on the mines.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in that same vicinity?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, at a later stage in 1984, yes, Chairperson, 1985, 1985 yes he did live in Westonaria.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a house there?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, and if I recall correctly I can point out the house, there were no servant quarters there.

CHAIRPERSON: You are convinced that Miss Simelane is deceased?

MR W H J COETZEE: If you can repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you, you are convinced that Miss Simelane is deceased?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot comment. The only comment I can offer is in this instance I cannot prove what I have said. I can make some assumptions based upon similar incidents. If I refer to this incident Chairperson I am still waiting for RS267 and 282 to come back. The information which I cannot prove says that they are dead. The one Quatro, the other one shot somewhere else. The way we know Supt Pretorius would later say, but this is some of the similar matters which we handled.

CHAIRPERSON: But in this instance you are convinced she was killed by her comrades in MK?

MR W H J COETZEE: They had reason to act against her Chairperson, as well as they had reason to act against the two members who were killed Chairperson. That is what I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: So you accept that she is dead?

MR W H J COETZEE: I believe on the grounds of several examples which I have just put to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

ADV GCABASHE: The last time you saw Langa and Nokuthula Simelane was where now? Are you saying it was somewhere near Soweto?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja near Soweto.

ADV GCABASHE: At the police station?

MR W H J COETZEE: Negative Chairperson. A person that was recruited can never be brought to a police station because it would mean that we have identified the person. Langa was a deep cover agent, a member of the force whose identity was not known. Secondly Langa had used a vehicle which could not be connected with the police and it was registered, and I speak under correction, under his name Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did you last see them?

MR W H J COETZEE: Outside Soweto Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just on the road?

MR W H J COETZEE: Where we sat under the trees at the rendezvous point if I may put it as that.

ADV GCABASHE: You had made a specific appointment to meet at that spot?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: What was the purpose of your meeting them for the very last time at that spot?

MR W H J COETZEE: If there were any problems to discuss the programme in general and the communication and the attitude and to wish her well with the certainty that if there were any problems we could handle it, we could manage it, and communication was the key to success, discipline and so forth as well as money that was handed over Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now ...(indistinct) would have risen during Langa's last debriefing of Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: How long was that supposed to take?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was approximately, if I recall, an hour, maybe less than an hour.

ADV GCABASHE: And who were you with in the car?

MR W H J COETZEE: Myself, Pretorius, Mothiba, Mr Langa and Simelane.

ADV GCABASHE: And at what time would this have been when they departed to Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was very late afternoon, I think between six and seven, they departed after seven o'clock Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And did you discuss specifically at what point you should let her cross the border?

MR W H J COETZEE: Mothiba was an expert as to where the persons crossed and in the past with the other members present he had other people cross into Swaziland.

ADV GCABASHE: Was he going to go with her beyond the border?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And when were you expecting him back to report to you?

MR W H J COETZEE: The following day Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And is this what he did, report the next day?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: How far did he go with her in Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: He just accompanied her some distance inside I think, and I assume past the police quarters on the Swaziland side.

ADV GCABASHE: And he left her hiking on the road or something?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and she went towards the road.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he indicate at what time they got to Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall correctly, but I think it was in the early hours.

ADV GCABASHE: Early hours of the following morning?

MR W H J COETZEE: The morning, late that night, the morning she crossed into Swaziland Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: And your instruction to her was to walk or just to hike or just to find her way to wherever she was going to?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, from there the circumstances, if a vehicle was there or if a taxi was there, or if a taxi was there, and if she met anybody she had to move on her own.

ADV GCABASHE: Otherwise to walk if it was the early hours of the morning, she must walk to the nearest town, Babanyawayo(?)

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And you say she was in a condition to do that, physical condition to do that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson I am convinced of that.

ADV GCABASHE: Despite being in cuffs up to that very same morning?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the 15 minute adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman Mr van den Berg intimated to me that he wants to rectify a statement which he made to this witness. I have no objection to him doing that.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman I, after Mr van den Berg, I just also, instructions that I obtained as a result of the questioning of the Committee from my clients which I just want to put to Mr Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Coetzee I put it to you that the arrest of Cheche took place on the 25th of March. My attention was brought to the fact that it was indeed on the 25th of May and I would like to put that to you, that it was actually the 25th of May 1984.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, I will not be able to comment regarding the specific date.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey, what have you got?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman may I just deal firstly, Mr Coetzee has mentioned in his Exhibit T, paragraph 58, that there is a suggestion by Mr X that Simelane was murdered or killed and he said that he denies that. Initially I don't know who the Mr X is that he referred to, I assume it was in relation to the report, the newspaper report, the Sowetan, and I must just say that it is common cause that my client Mr Veyi was the person who spoke to that, well made, and he also said that in his supplementary application that he told the Sowetan as to what he knew at that stage.

In all fairness to Mr Coetzee I just want to put to him exactly what has been stated in his Exhibit T, which I haven't done previously and that is that - Mr Coetzee may I proceed. Mr Coetzee the evidence will be that, if I could just get to the relevant passage, Mr Veyi in paragraph 8 of his Exhibit T, that will be annexure A, paragraph 8, page 6, I beg your pardon Exhibit S. He maintains that he participated in a discussion thereafter with Mothiba and that Mothiba told him that you and Pretorius had shot this lady, Miss Simelane, and that she was buried near Rustenburg. I am simply putting it to you that his evidence will be according to what was told to him by Mothiba.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Then I would also like to put it to you that Mr Mkhonza will maintain that when he informed you about the instructions that he had received from Mpho he didn't know what the name of the woman who he was to meet at the Carlton Centre was. However, he did indeed tell you that it was a woman that he was going to meet.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson according to my knowledge, as I have already testified, it was going to be an MK member of the underground structure.

MR LAMEY: Yes an MK member, but that it was a woman.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Then it is not precisely clear to me from Exhibit T where you mention in paragraph 45 Simelane's orders from MK was to undertake target identifications with RS243 and RS269. We know that RS243 was Mkhonza, did you hear this from Simelane or did you hear this from Mkhonza?

MR W H J COETZEE: If I recall correctly this came from Simelane.

MR LAMEY: Because my instructions from Mr Mkhonza are that he knew nothing about this. And furthermore my instructions are that he was also involved, or that he knew about the explosions which had taken place at substations to which he referred. He also says that this had nothing to do with the information which was obtained from Simelane.

MR W H J COETZEE: It was within the context of cross-border tasking.

MR LAMEY: Then the other aspect, according to my instructions from my client, Mkhonza and Selamolela, are that they would know that it was your modus operandus and method that when you were busy with a turning action you would keep the person cuffed to the very end, and my instructions are that their evidence will differ from yours on that point, especially Mr Lengene who will maintain that whenever the person turned, or gave their co-operation they would be released and no longer cuffed.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Insofar as what you maintain about your methodology they will give evidence that that was not your modus operandi.

The further aspect has to do with the safe houses and that you maintain that there were no safe houses in 1983, my instructions are that there were safe houses that you used at Klipspruit or in the Klipspruit environment, among others Lengene was interrogated at such a safe house.

MR W H J COETZEE: That was the accommodation of a commander's member.

MR LAMEY: Were there any such houses?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes later in the Klipspruit area such a facility was made available to us, but it was used primarily for the accommodation of members.

MR LAMEY: And then where you also testify with regard to the arrest of Justice Ngedi, or Cheche, my client maintains that that had nothing to do with Simelane and that this was the result of an information that agent SVT66 provided.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey. Re-examination Mr Visser.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee if we can just attempt to clarify a number of aspects you were asked by the Chairperson whether a point was reached at which continued assault would no longer assist in obtaining further information from Simelane. You responded to that and said that you consistently attempted to obtain in-depth information from her.

Furthermore you added that at the end you assaulted her from time-to-time, can you recall that?

MR W H COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot recall everything.

MR VISSER: But can you remember what I just put to you?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now what would the situation have been that caused you to slap her against the head from time to time near the end?

MR W H COETZEE: As a result of ambivalence of inputs.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee please simply answer in simple Afrikaans so that we can understand what you are saying.

Why would it have been necessary for you to assault her near the end?

MR W H COETZEE: Chairperson that would be when her inputs differed.

MR VISSER: In other words when you caught her out, when you caught her out with different information?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did that still happen towards the end?

MR W H COETZEE: To a certain extent, yes.

MR VISSER: And was the slap then intended to make her understand that if she wanted to return to the beginning there would once again be assaults or what was the intention?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: You also said that she was held in leg irons during the night, or at least just remind me here, the handcuffs were they removed during the day?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the leg irons, she wore permanently?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now the environment where the room was, the room that you referred to, how did that environment look?

MR W H COETZEE: It was a bushy area.

MR VISSER: So if she wanted to go to the toilet at night and she wasn't wearing leg irons what do you think may have happened?

MR W H COETZEE: She would have escaped.

MR VISSER: You were also questioned or it was put to you that all that you had to go on was her word that she would cooperate with the South African Police, is that correct?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: You also had other sources of information which could be used, one would assume, to control the information that she had provided.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you indeed do this, did you have other information at your disposal or to your knowledge according to which you could control her information?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes at the office.

MR VISSER: But did you have it with you in your minds there where you were interrogating her?

MR W H COETZEE: No, not entirely.

MR VISSER: However, could you or could you not control or verify what she was telling you in light of existing information which you had?

MR W H COETZEE: We could do that at the office.

MR VISSER: And did you do that?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes on a continuous basis.

MR VISSER: And is it a sign when a person whom you are attempting to turn gives you information which correlates with other information, is that a sign of the willingness of a person to cooperate?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: With regard to the information you have consistently referred to in-depth information. In your world of espionage and counter-espionage as it appears from this case, if a person who was your captive did not provide all the information at their disposal, what would the possible consequences be?

MR W H COETZEE: It would place the person at a disadvantage, ultimately.

MR VISSER: I am speaking of you. If you only get half of the story what would that mean for you?

MR W H COETZEE: It would put us on a wild goose chase.

MR VISSER: There is an application before the Committee from the deceased Mr Lengele in which he applies for amnesty, you are aware of that?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you have also applied for amnesty with regard to the abduction of a person by the name of Lengene from Botswana and the assault of this person?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is that the same person?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you aware of the fact, as it appears now, that Mr Duma Nkosi indeed conveyed information to MK indicating that Miss Simelane had disappeared when you arrested her?

MR W H COETZEE: I am unaware of that.

MR VISSER: And were you aware of the close relationship that existed between Mpho and Mr Nkosi?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Which would have resulted that your cover-up regarding him would not have worked, are you aware of that?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Did you at that stage when you fabricated this cover story in which Mr Nkosi would be involved did you believe that this would serve as an excuse to Simelane which she could give to her commanders which would explain why she was away for such a long time?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: The Chairperson also asked you, you have now abducted Simelane, and your objective is to turn her, what would happen if somewhere along the way you had realised that she wasn't going to cooperate, that you couldn't trust her and that it was extremely clear that she was not going to cooperate, what would happen to her then?

MR VISSER: You then answered and stated that there was the possibility of prosecuting her, is that correct?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were there also other options?

MR W H COETZEE: yes.

MR VISSER: What were they?

MR W H COETZEE: To release her.

MR VISSER: You were at that stage in possession of, and you referred to it when you answered the question, you were in possession of an affidavit which she herself compiled.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would that have been something with which you could have threatened her by releasing her and saying that you would make this available, what was the position?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: So in other words this wasn't something that she would have accepted lightly after four to five weeks to simply be released?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Without any cover-up?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Commissioner Gcabashe asked you about this precise point whether or not it ever occurred to you that MK, during this period of time, may have developed a suspicion, may have become suspicious regarding her, did that ever occur to you?

MR W H COETZEE: It is possible.

MR VISSER: I am asking whether it occurred to you.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now at the rendezvous point there was talk of a cigarette box which you referred to which should have been on a table.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: In Bundle 2, page 420, Mr Mkhonza stated that his arrangement with persons in Swaziland was that he would meet a person at the Carlton Centre - that's paragraph 2 Chairperson, page 420, right at the top - and that he was given instructions by an MK commander, Mpho, to wear a yellow shirt and brown trousers by means of which he would be identified at the rendezvous, do you recall that?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: But you do not deny that it may have been so?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: During the course of the morning certain questions were put to you, and I would just like to ask you about a few of those questions. Commissioner Gcabashe asked you a question about when the interrogation phase came to an end and the reconstruction phase began. And in this comparison there has also been mention of assaults. As I recall you maintain that it was continuous process from beginning to end. Are you then saying that you are not capable of saying whether or not there was a certain point at which you claimed that they may have stopped assaulting her in order to obtain information from her.

MR W H COETZEE: There was a point.

MR VISSER: And what point was that?

MR W H COETZEE: If I recall correctly I would say it was after a period of plus/minus three weeks.

MR VISSER: Three weeks. Would that be the three weeks that you referred to when you responded to the question?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And then it was no longer necessary for you to obtain information from her because you were satisfied that you had all the information that she had at her disposal.

MR W H COETZEE: We were still in the process of receiving certain inputs from her, yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee can we just begin from the beginning. You say that after three weeks the interrogation stopped, is that what you just said?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you then have all the information from her that you believed to be at her disposal?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Very well, what did you do then in order to obtain the information which you still believe she held at her disposal?

MR W H COETZEE: We tasked her to put this in writing.

MR VISSER: Don't you regard this as part of the interrogation?

MR W H COETZEE: No, no, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So if she wrote it was not part of the interrogation according to your perspective?

MR W H COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: The other question put to you by Commissioner Gcabashe, about which I would like to examine you, is that she referred to the normal thing that one would have expected and that would be the existence of checks and balances, that provision would normally have made and one would assume this, we who know nothing of espionage would simply assume this, that you would have established a monitor action to monitor her in Swaziland after her replacement there, that is now Miss Simelane, was such a monitor action ever devised or established by you?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And what was that monitor action?

MR W H COETZEE: There was a multiplicity of agents in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: And what about that?

MR W H COETZEE: Their movements would be reported according to the normal procedure by them.

MR VISSER: Did you give any agents in Swaziland the special order or instruction to look out specifically for her and to monitor her?

MR W H COETZEE: No, for various reasons.

MR VISSER: Well give us one or two.

MR W H COETZEE: One can only task an agent in terms of the access available to him.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR W H COETZEE: The agents didn't have that kind of access within that milieu.

MR VISSER: Maybe just return, I am trying to understand what you have told me. You said that there were agents in Swaziland.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I just want to know from you whether you specifically tasked or requested any one of those agents to monitor her?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Was there any particular reason for that?

MR W H COETZEE: They had no access.

MR VISSER: And when you speak of access what are you referring to?

MR W H COETZEE: That would be that they do not have access to a determined group of people.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might just interrupt, then what is the monitoring action that you did set up, which was your first response to your Advocate's re-examination?

MR VISSER: When I asked you a few moments ago whether or not you took any actions to monitor her movements your response was, yes. Now we just want to know what this action was that you took to monitor her.

MR W H COETZEE: That was by means of the appointments.

MR VISSER: Were those the only monitoring actions?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you have anybody standing on a corner somewhere near where she lived to watch her and monitor her movements where she would go in the morning, where she would spend the day, when she would return and so forth?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Then the final question from Commissioner Gcabashe was whether you later made enquiries, for instance with the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal whether they had heard anything about what happened to Miss Simelane?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: So would Eastern Transvaal Security Branch not, for example, have had a file on Miss Simelane?

MR W H COETZEE: It is possible.

MR VISSER: Did you make enquiries and ask whether or not they knew anything about her?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Why not?

MR W H COETZEE: That case was not co-ordinated.

MR VISSER: What do you mean when you say it was not co-ordinated?

MR W H COETZEE: What I mean by that Chairperson is that we didn't go specifically to the Eastern Transvaal and make enquiries regarding this specific case.

MR VISSER: But you accepted that something had happened to her?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am not certain whether or not I heard your evidence correctly when you were questioned about the following, but Mr Mkhonza maintains that after Miss Simelane was grabbed he placed his leg and his arm in plaster of paris so that he would have an excuse to indicate why he did not honour the appointment with her. Are you aware of that? Do you know about it? Can you remember it? What was the situation?

MR W H COETZEE: No I cannot recall it.

MR VISSER: But you would not deny it?

MR W H COETZEE: No I wouldn't.

MR VISSER: Now let us return once again to the issue of the cuffs. When you were later once again examined on the leg irons by Ms Gcabashe and asked why it was that the leg irons were never removed you said there were three reasons. One was certainty in order to prevent her escape; secondly, it was your modus operandi and thirdly it was the agreement with Miss Simelane. Would that be the agreement to which you referred to earlier which denoted that she was concerned about the fact that the fact that she was working with the police should not be circulated too widely, was that to keep up appearances?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: I have made a note here to ask you the following, but now I don't even know what the answer is. Do you have a brother?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Does this brother live on the West Rand?

MR W H COETZEE: He is deceased.

MR VISSER: Did he ever live on the West Rand?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: In 1983 did he live in Westonaria?

MR W H COETZEE: I don't know where exactly he lived in 1983, however I can confirm that after '85 he did reside in the Westonaria suburb.

MR VISSER: Is it possible that he lived in or near Westonaria in a house where there was servant's quarters?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well be that as it may do you have any knowledge that Mr Mong and Mr Lengene, that Mr Mong apparently together with Lengene would have been with your brother, do you know anything about that?

MR W H COETZEE: No I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: However you have just said that Sefuti was not involved in the final handling of her legend and her replacement in Swaziland, was he involved?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Just in response to Mr Lamey's question with regard to safe houses, Commissioner Gcabashe referred you to the article that you attached to your affidavit, that would be Exhibit T, and reference is made to safe houses. This has to do with what was pointed out by Mr Veyi to certain informers and if I recall correctly this is the report in the Sowetan. Well my learned friend Mr Lamey says he doesn't think it was Mr Veyi, but it doesn't really matter because what is of relevance Chairperson, is that reference is made to safe houses.

Now I can read a date, 1995, but I can't do better than that on this article, you said Mr Coetzee, in the beginning, that you didn't have safe houses in order to launch a project such as the turning action of a cadre.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And it was put to you by Mr Lamey that in the Klipspruit area Mr Lengene had been interrogated at a safe house after he had been abducted, can you recall that question?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Just tell us firstly, when did Mr Lengene’s incident take place?

MR W H COETZEE: That would have been 1982.

MR VISSER: Bundle 2, page 235 Chairperson. I see that you say there that it was approximately February '82. Did you then have a safe house at Klipspruit?

MR W H COETZEE: It was a house for accommodation.

MR VISSER: So in other words what are you saying, accommodation of who?

MR W H COETZEE: Accommodation of members....

MR VISSER: So in other words - let me ask you, was this a house, a flat or a room?

MR W H COETZEE: It was a semi-detached house.

MR VISSER: And was this used for the accommodation of police members?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And was there one of those that was available at that stage that you used for the abduction?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: I am talking about the stage when Lengene was abducted?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Where did you question Lengene?

MR W H COETZEE: In Rustenburg.

MR VISSER: Not at Klipspruit?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: But was Lengene later accommodated there?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did Lengene join the police at a stage?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was this before or after he joined the police?

MR W H COETZEE: He became a member of the force shortly after that.

MR VISSER: And then he was accommodated there?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: In other words you would say that this was not a safe house?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: And when did the safe houses appear for the first time? You referred to Soweto's incorporation in the programme, in the RS programme, what exactly does that mean?

MR W H COETZEE: Where we received or had authorisation that there should be a specific house which was obtained or rented for the purpose of being used as a safe house.

MR VISSER: When did Soweto become part of this programme?

MR W H COETZEE: I would assume that it was in 1985.

MR VISSER: In either event it was after this incident?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: If you had a safe house at your disposal, near Soweto, what would the reason have been for you going to Northum?

MR W H COETZEE: If we had a safe house at the local Security Branch then there would no reason to go all the way to Northum, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And you had to obtain permission for the use of this room in the house at Northum in order to perform this turning action?

MR W H COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Coetzee you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

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MR VISSER: Mr Chairman with your leave I wish to call Mr Williams. We have prepared a statement for him which I typed over the weekend and which my attorney made me retype last night, so you have a redrafted statement for him which will be Exhibit U, I believe Mr Chairman, which we beg leave to hand up to you. It's a brief statement. This witness' evidence won't be long Chairperson. It's U...

ADV DE JAGER: Was that the letter of the 4th ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Oh yes, oh yes, I am sorry, absolutely right. Civil Service of Swaziland, yes. And then this will - thank you Commissioner de Jager, then this will be Exhibit V, I am sorry Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Sorry Mr Chairman just before we continue with the witness I in the meantime got instructions from Mr Veyi, the article which my learned friend has referred to, I wasn't sure when he spoke about it whether it's the same but it is. Mr Veyi confirms that he is there the Mr X also referred to in that article about the pointing-out of the safe houses.

JAMES FREDERICK WILLIAMS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Williams you are also an applicant for amnesty in the current proceedings and your participation or your involvement is not as great as that of the previous witness. We shall get to that involvement soon, but it regards the abduction and detention of Nokuthula Simelane.

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Your application appears in Bundle 3 on page 581 to 592, is that correct?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And do you confirm the correctness of the contents thereof?

MR WILLIAMS: I do Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you have studied Exhibit A, the general background document?

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And did you study this thoroughly?

MR WILLIAMS: I did Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And do you concur that the contents thereof, according to your knowledge, is correct?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And that you as that this be incorporated with your evidence?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you also request that the amnesty applications as it appears thus far of Supt Pretorius and Supt Coetzee, Mong and W/O Ross also be considered with your application, is that correct?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Are you still in the police force?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I am.

MR VISSER: What is your rank?

MR WILLIAMS: Superintendent.

MR VISSER: Where are you stationed?

MR WILLIAMS: At Potchefstroom.

MR VISSER: In which division?

MR WILLIAMS: (No audible reply)

MR VISSER: Now may I ask you to look at page 2 please, paragraph 2 you said that in 1983 you were part of the Intelligence Unit at Security Branch Soweto, and you served under the command of Supt Coetzee. Then he was a lieutenant.

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And what was your rank then?

MR WILLIAMS: I was a sergeant Chairperson.

MR VISSER: He has given evidence here, you have heard his evidence which is said in paragraph 3 that an MK courier was on his way to South Africa and had instructions to make contact and to transport instructions and that a meeting with whom we know is now Mr Mkhonza was arranged for this courier to meet at Carlton Centre, is that correct?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You were informed that this meeting between Mr Coetzee and Brigadier H Muller was discussed with a commander.

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And a meeting was held at the Custodum flats where on the roof of the 10th floor you had servant's quarters that you used as an office.

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And at this meeting certain information was given to you?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR VISSER: At paragraph 5 could you please put it to the Committee?

MR WILLIAMS: Certainly. At a meeting all the members, who I will refer to later, was informed by Supt Coetzee that it was decided by Brigadier Muller that the MK courier during the meeting would be abducted and we had to immediately start turning this person.

I realised that this was unlawful to arrest a person, to turn this person without this person being charged or without this person being held in detention, according to the correct regulations.

At the same time the Security Branch could not oppose the revolutionary onslaught without information from the enemy. We were forced to launch such actions and I saw that it was within my tacit authorisation. I associated myself with the action on this particular day in approximately September 1983.

The movements of the abovementioned MK courier was monitored by the following persons whose names I can recall at the Carlton Centre. It was myself, Supt Coetzee; Supt Pretorius; W/O Mong; Sergeant Radebe; Sergeant Selamolela; Constable Veyi and Sergeant Mothiba.

MR VISSER: Current W/O Ross, we don't know what his rank was then.

MR WILLIAMS: He was a sergeant.

MR VISSER: You don't mention him here. Shall we accept that he was there?

MR WILLIAMS: Definitely Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you recall this from later recollection?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR VISSER: If you refer to RS234 you can refer to Mkhonza and when you refer to RS269 you can refer to Sgt Langa. Can you continue with paragraph 8?

MR WILLIAMS: Certainly. Sergeant Mkhonza met her the particular day. Only with the meeting it was realised that the MK courier was a female person.

MR VISSER: Did you know this before the meeting at the Carlton Centre that the courier would be a woman?

MR WILLIAMS: Definitely not Chairperson.

She went to the ...(tape side A ends)

...and afterwards we left for Norwood . On our arrival we withdrew from the flats there and according to instructions from Supt Coetzee we went about some other tasks.

Later the same day Supt Coetzee asked me to accompany him to the house of Brigadier Muller because he did not know where it was. I accompanied him and we had a discussion with the Brigadier.

MR VISSER: That was a Saturday?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I think that's common cause.

MR VISSER: So this was the Saturday afternoon?

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

Supt Coetzee reported to Brigadier Muller. The latter decided that the matter had to be discussed with head office. Afterwards we went to Brigadier Schoon at head office and he was informed and that it was told to him that the idea was to turn Simelane. Brig Schoon gave his permission for this.

MR VISSER: Was an agreement reached telephonically? Were you present during this discussion at the office?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I was partially present.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything else to do with Miss Simelane?

MR WILLIAMS: Absolutely nothing.

MR VISSER: May I just ask you, there have been some allegations that Mr Coetzee and/or others would have killed Simelane, do you have any knowledge which indicates that the police could have killed Miss Simelane?

MR WILLIAMS: I have no such knowledge Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you receive any information whether she was recruited as a source or not?

MR WILLIAMS: They did not discuss it with me but I received the message that they were using her, yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you continue with paragraph 13.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well. The actions and omissions which I am guilty of I have done in the execution of my official duties under instruction of a senior officer whose instructions I was obliged to obey. I did this as part of the opposition of the struggle and it was aimed at the supporters of a liberation movement. What I had done I had done to protect the government and the National Party and to oppose the revolutionary onslaught.

MR VISSER: You say you were a sergeant at this stage, how long before this incident, from approximately September 1983, how long were you then with the Intelligence Division under Mr Coetzee?

MR WILLIAMS: Chairperson it was approximately two weeks.

MR VISSER: Two weeks, you were very new in the Intelligence Division.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And you had an instruction which you had to comply with?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR VISSER: At any stage did you physically assault or touch Miss Simelane?

MR WILLIAMS: No I never touched her at all, not at all Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So it is obvious then that you had no comprehension as to Mr Coetzee's method that he went about his work?

MR WILLIAMS: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So you request amnesty for your involvement in this incident. If we could refer to page 2 as it would seem from the evidence it is conspiracy to abduct Simelane, and you say you knew it was an unlawful act; and then the abduction of the mentioned Simelane; as well as the assistance in this act and the unlawful arrest and detention of this person; and then defeating the ends of justice with regard to the omission and the true facts of the matter, as well as defeating the ends of justice or any other offence or delict emanating from your evidence, is that correct?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Lamey questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Williams paragraph 7 of this Exhibit U, you mention a list of persons who were present at the Carlton Centre.

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: With the arrest my instructions from Mr Veyi is that he was not present there and that he later joined that arrest at Norwood.

MR WILLIAMS: It is possible Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: So you concede that you might be mistaken here by mentioning his name here?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I may be mistaken.

MR LAMEY: I would like to ask you, before I hand in paragraph 5 you say at a meeting the members who I will refer later to, is this "later" referred to, is this the members that you mention in the list at the bottom here and on the next page, paragraph 7?

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct. So what you are saying is Veyi and Selamolela were present at the meeting where it was discussed that this MK courier would be abducted to start turning her?

MR WILLIAMS: That's how I recall it Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Are you sure as to Veyi's and Selamolela’s presence at such a meeting or could you be mistaken?

MR WILLIAMS: I may be mistaken as well.

MR LAMEY: I may be wrong but my recollection of Mr Coetzee's evidence is indeed that the black members were not present during the whole, or were not aware of this turning action during this whole operation, if I understand his evidence correctly.

MR WILLIAMS: How I can answer you Chairperson is that the persons who were present were informed as to what their tasks were and everybody knew what his task was. Although who exactly was there I cannot say with great certainty. But that everybody received his specific task, that I can recall.

MR LAMEY: Is it not possible that during this discussion, if such a discussion did indeed take place, can you definitely recall that this issue of turning was discussed at that occasion, was this before the arrest or was it only later after the arrest when this was cleared with Brigadier Schoon at head office that that was the moment when it was decided on the turning action? Or was it from the initial process?

MR WILLIAMS: I recall that we definitely knew that we would turn her and I also drew the inference from the instructions which we received.

MR LAMEY: But what you are saying is that some of the black members, Selamolela and Veyi, that they were not present and that they would have not known about this turning action?

MR WILLIAMS: I can honestly not recall who exactly were present.

MR LAMEY: I put it to you that my instructions are that on paragraph 3 on page 566 he says that he was never present with any briefing, he was never personally briefed and he did not know what would happen. He received instruction that he had to be present at the Carlton Centre and to take her to the police station, the arrest, where the seeming arrest would take place.

MR WILLIAMS: I cannot argue with his version.

MR LAMEY: I don't think there is anything further. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey. Mr van den Berg?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Just one moment I have omitted something Chairperson, there is something that bothers me.

Can you say with conviction that there was no communication, that the person who Mr Mkhonza was to meet in the Carlton Centre would be a woman?

MR WILLIAMS: Definitely not Chairperson, but to give you an idea of what happened there my task was to keep Mr Mkhonza in my vision and we did not know that he was to - I was not aware that he was to meet a woman Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: But he says that he knew he was to meet a woman and this is how he communicated it to Coetzee. For your identification it would be important to know that he was to meet a woman, or is that not the proper inference to draw?

MR WILLIAMS: I am convinced that we did not know it was to be a woman.

MR LAMEY: Do you not think that if such communication was conveyed from Mkhonza to Coetzee that it was important for Coetzee to know what the sex of the person would be?

MR WILLIAMS: I would have been important for the action Chairperson because we could have planned it somewhat different. But because we did not know who we would expect and that is why we amended the planning for the abduction as such, so that we could handle any situation and we were not aware of her sex.

MR LAMEY: No further questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Just one question Mr Chairman.

Mr Williams when earlier on you said you had received a message that Nokuthula was being used by the police where did you receive this message from?

MR WILLIAMS: The colleagues whom I worked with told me a week or two later after she was abducted told me that they were using her. I drew the inference that they were withdrawing information from her.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe. Was it Brigadier Schoon who authorised this whole operation?

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say, what can you do?

MR WILLIAMS: I was not present the whole time when the discussion took place in the office between Muller and Brigadier Schoon and what I can recall is that he authorised the turning of her.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say?

MR WILLIAMS: I cannot recall Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say you could kill the person?

MR WILLIAMS: No he never at any stage said something like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say you can assault the person?

MR WILLIAMS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: He definitely did not say that?

MR WILLIAMS: Not at all. He said we can continue with the operation but he did not give any permission to that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

ADV DE JAGER: And this was after the abduction took place?

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: The same day?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, the same afternoon.

ADV DE JAGER: And the abduction took place without Schoon's knowledge?

MR WILLIAMS: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And then you went over and he said Muller could continue to recruit her or to turn her or whatever, I don't know what term was used. Is there a specific term that was used or was the word "turn her" used?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes Chairperson the word "turn her" was used.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Visser?

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson I understand there is a threat of cutting in on our lunch time. I now see it's six minutes past. Perhaps we could take the lunch now and reconvene again at what, twenty to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we will take the luncheon adjournment for 30 minutes and we will reconvene at 13H40.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

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ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. We call Inspector Ross, Exhibit W. It's been placed before you.

JACOBUS EVERADUS ROSS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ross you are the applicant in this matter. Your application is in Bundle 3, page 548 to 589, do you confirm the correctness of the content thereof?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: You have seen Exhibit A, is there any part thereof which is not of application to you?

MR ROSS: No.

MR VISSER: Do you also wish that the evidence which is referred to in there as well as the content thereof be incorporated into your amnesty application when evaluated?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: You also request that the Amnesty Committee inspect the amnesty applications of Coetzee, Pretorius, Mong and Williams, is that correct?

MR ROSS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 7 of your application form where it referred to member or support of a political party you wrote "not applicable" what is the correct situation?

MR ROSS: I was a member of the National Party and a supporter thereof.

MR VISSER: A supporter. Now in this matter you acted very peripherally, you acted under the command of Mr Coetzee, is that correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: In 1983 you were a member of the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch of Soweto and under its direct command, is that correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: In your application you confirmed the knowledge that we already have regarding the information of the MK courier who was to have come in, is that correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And that a meeting was arranged at the Carlton Centre between her and Mkhonza?

MR ROSS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: You were also informed that this meeting was to take place and how or what action would be taken there beforehand by Brigadier Muller who was your overall commander?

MR ROSS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: Can you recall that a meeting took place in the Custodum flats in Norwood?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you present?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can you recall whether Mr Selamolela was present?

MR ROSS: I cannot confirm that.

MR VISSER: And Mr Veyi?

MR ROSS: I cannot confirm that either.

MR VISSER: As far as your recollection goes the persons who were present there and who participated in the action are set out in paragraph 7, but you say that you are not certain of everybody?

MR ROSS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened during the meeting was that you were informed about this MK courier, is that correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And a decision was made by Brigadier Muller that there would be a grab action and not a usual arrest.

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would you please continue from paragraph 6.

MR VISSER: That was yourself, Supt Coetzee; Supt Pretorius; W/O Mong; Supt Williams; Sergeant Radebe; Sergeant Selamolela; Constable Veyi and Sergeant Mothiba, is that what you remember?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is it possible that Mr Veyi may not have been there?

MR ROSS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You say that's correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was he not there or can you not confirm it?

MR ROSS: I cannot confirm it.

MR VISSER: Mkhonza met a person. is that correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Where were you?

MR ROSS: I was on the same level as the restaurants, I was in front of the restaurant.

MR VISSER: Did you see who the person was, or what gender the person was?

MR ROSS: I noticed that this was a female person.

MR VISSER: Did you know beforehand that it would be a woman?

MR ROSS: No.

MR VISSER: What did you do when you saw it was a woman?

MR ROSS: At that stage we moved on ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No I am talking about you, what did you do?

MR ROSS: I moved on to the basement level of the parking area where we informed Supt Pretorius that it was a woman.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

MR ROSS: We ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Ross I don't want to know what "we" did, I want to know what you did.

MR ROSS: I undertook further observation.

MR VISSER: And where did you do this?

MR ROSS: In the vicinity of the restaurant.

MR VISSER: So then you went back to the restaurant?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: You went down especially to tell Pretorius that it was a woman and then you went back up to the restaurant?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And then?

MR ROSS: Upon my return I noticed that the woman and Mkhonza had already gotten up and moved down to the elevator.

MR VISSER: What did you do then?

MR ROSS: I moved down with the stairs to the parking area.

MR VISSER: Was anybody with you?

MR ROSS: It was me and Supt Williams.

MR VISSER: And when you arrived there what did you find?

MR ROSS: We saw that the woman had already at that stage been caught by Mr Pretorius, Mr Coetzee and Mr Radebe, or at least that she had been arrested and that they were busy putting her into the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Very well. Then you left there in your vehicles and you were given an order by Mr Coetzee to go and undertake further work.

MR ROSS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And furthermore you had nothing to do with the operation?

MR ROSS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Will you go on with paragraph 11.

MR VISSER: You then request amnesty insofar as it may appear from your evidence that you were participant to conspiracy to abduct Miss Simelane; aiding and abetting as well as illegitimate arrest or detention; as well as defeating the ends of justice or any other offence or delict emanating from your evidence, is that correct?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Ross if I look at the members who were involved in the grab action or the "arrest" at the Carlton Centre, compared to the members who were later involved in the interrogation on the farm as well it would appear that it was mostly the white members who were tasked with the arrest at the Carlton Centre, and that the black members were involved in the guarding and later interrogation after the grab action?

MR ROSS: The grab action was planned so that Coetzee, Pretorius and Radebe would grab her.

MR LAMEY: No I am speaking in entirety. You were involved in the grab action along with Williams but that is as far as your involvement went?

MR ROSS: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: You were not involved later on in this matter.

MR ROSS: No.

MR LAMEY: If you look at the list of applicants we can see that several black members were later involved in the interrogation period, am I correct?

MR ROSS: Would you please repeat your question.

MR LAMEY: If we look at the list of names it would appear to me that several white members were tasked to handle the grab action ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But on the list it indicates that there were five white members and four black members of which it would appear that Mr Veyi was not present.

MR ROSS: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: Well let me ask you this way. Do you know why you were only to be involved in the grab action?

MR ROSS: I also had administrative duties that I had to attend to that is why I was not as deeply involved.

MR LAMEY: Why did you go and tell Pretorius specifically that it was a woman, what was the meaning of that?

MR ROSS: Also to state that contact had been made between Mkhonza and the courier. Not specifically no, we went to inform him that the courier had made contact and that it was a woman.

MR LAMEY: So you would actually correct that then?

MR ROSS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Mr Ross.

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MR VISSER: The next witness is Mr Pretorius. I beg leave to hand up to you his statement which will be X I will imagine.

ANTON PRETORIUS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Pretorius you are an applicant in the matter which has to do with Miss Simelane.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application appears in Bundle 2, page 435 to 547. Do you confirm the content thereof as true and correct?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: You have Exhibit A, which you have studied, is that correct? That is the general background document.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: Is the content thereof also applicable to you?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you request that the Amnesty Committee take this into consideration when they evaluate your amnesty application along with the evidence that has been mentioned in that document?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: You also request that the Amnesty Committee incorporate the evidence in the applications of the other applicants when they consider your application?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: In Bundle 2 on page 464 to 467 you have given the same background as Mr Coetzee with regard to the current incident, is that correct?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: It is then fair to say that you and your evidence, indeed your affidavit which has been served to the Committee in most aspects are similar to the affidavit compiled by Mr Coetzee, what can we ascribe that to?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson because Mr Coetzee and I were together most of the time and were involved in the same actions.

MR VISSER: Yes. And for how long did you work together before 1983?

MR PRETORIUS: From 1981, November 1981 if I am correct I was stationed at Soweto Security Branch.

MR VISSER: So by 1983, September 1983 you had been there for almost two years and that was when you worked with Mr Coetzee?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And do you agree with his evidence regarding what your task was in the Intelligence Unit?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes I agree.

MR VISSER: And you also agree with the classes of informers and RS members to which he referred. You reiterate that in paragraph 2 of your document.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And can we then say on a global level that paragraphs 3, 4, or at least 3 and 4 along with 5, 6, 7 are confirmed by you?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes I confirm that.

MR VISSER: And you are also familiar with - I beg your pardon did somebody say something?

You were also familiar with the informer SWT66?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Were you also one of her handlers?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes I was a co-handler.

MR VISSER: And did you also have information at your disposal regarding the agent who was supposed to come in, or at least the courier that was supposed to come in from MK in Swaziland to Soweto?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson if I recall correctly Mr Coetzee informed me that he had already spoken to the informer and that that was the information. I wasn't personally present there.

MR VISSER: Very well and you were not present when a discussion took place between Coetzee and Muller before the action against her?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct I was not present.

MR VISSER: However there was a meeting in which certain things were said.

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And it boiled down to the fact that Mkhonza would meet the courier in the Carlton Centre on Saturday which we believe to have been somewhere in September 1983?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: At the meeting Coetzee told you what was decided and what the action would be, whether there would be an arrest and so forth.

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And what did he say had been decided by Brigadier Muller?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson he told all of us who were present that it was going to be a grab action along with an abduction.

MR VISSER: So it was going to be an abduction?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And that would be an illegitimate act because one would either have to arrest someone and prosecute them or detain them in terms of legislation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And it wouldn't have been either one of the two?

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson I keep on hearing reverberations from the back and I have just requested for the lady behind me to turn the volume down somewhat.

Thus the idea was that it was going to be a turning action and you knew that this was illegitimate and illegal?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes I was aware of that.

MR VISSER: However in your work you had to do with many turning actions, not so?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And turning actions were executed in terms of persons who were in legitimate detention in terms Section 29 of the Internal Security Act?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And the person would appear to cooperate and that is when you would go through with a process of turning?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And that would not necessarily be illegitimate?

MR PRETORIUS: No.

MR VISSER: But in this case you went to arrest the person in order to turn her?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, the idea was to grab her and then to turn her.

MR VISSER: Was it important to undertake these turning actions which you applied to people?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes it was of immeasurable value.

MR VISSER: From which perspective?

MR PRETORIUS: From a global threat information perception the value of such information could, at that stage, not be measured at all. It was of immeasurable value.

MR VISSER: And without that you would not have been able to combat the revolutionary onslaught?

MR PRETORIUS: I don't believe so. Without information nobody would have been able to do anything.

MR VISSER: Can I take you to paragraph 7, page 7 paragraph 15 and can you just submit what appears on paragraph 15.

MR VISSER: Please pause there. Mr Pretorius I know that we are discussing an incident that took place a number of years ago but can you tell us whether you can remember who was present during the meeting?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Coetzee, Mr Mong, Mr Ross ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Just a little bit slower please.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Ross, Mr Williams, Mr Mothiba, Selamolela, Radebe and Veyi.

MR VISSER: Well then I will leave it to my learned friend Mr Lamey to put questions to you regarding that.

Who were all involved in the action? Was it the same people or were any other people involved?

MR PRETORIUS: As far as I can recall all the people that I have mentioned were present. It may be possible that another member who I cannot recall was also present because our unit did not only consist of these members and there may have been another member. However I cannot place that person with this specific day.

MR VISSER: Would Strongman, for example, have been involved?

MR PRETORIUS: No, I can say in all honesty that this person was not present.

MR VISSER: I should have referred you to paragraph 10 at page 5 is where he mentioned the names. I am sorry I should have done that.

Proceed, paragraph 16 please.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: According to you that is not completely correct, you were not in the restaurant?

MR PRETORIUS: No I wasn't.

MR VISSER: Then how did you hear for the first time that the courier was a woman?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson as the witness before me has given evidence he came to inform me that the person had arrived but that it was a woman.

MR VISSER: Very well, he then returned he said.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes he had to return to his position from where he had to undertake observation.

MR VISSER: And gradually, you say in paragraph 18, Mkhonza and Simelane moved towards the parking area in the building.

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And that is where she was grabbed.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Who are the people who physically grabbed her?

MR PRETORIUS: It was me, Sergeant Radebe and Mr Coetzee.

MR VISSER: Very well proceed with paragraph 19.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: That is Bundle 2.

MR PRETORIUS: I meant to refer to the departure from where she was with us in the vehicle to the apartments and not from the Carlton Centre.

MR VISSER: It is not clear at what stage he refers to it. It may create the impression that before they left towards the flats from the Carlton Centre that he came to this conclusion. But in consultation it was quite clear that he meant that from where they were waiting at the flat, before they left to go into the building is when he got the impression. I now suddenly can't find it, but it's in here somewhere. But it's not a serious point.

Proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: Paragraph 25.

MR VISSER: Mr Pretorius we will return to paragraph 32; and we will ask you to take us back to the point where you were in the car, that's paragraph 23. Was Simelane assaulted in the motor vehicle while she was seated between you and Coetzee?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you assault her?

MR PRETORIUS: No.

MR VISSER: Who assaulted her?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Coetzee.

MR VISSER: How did he assault her?

MR PRETORIUS: He slapped her.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us how many times or can you not recall that?

MR PRETORIUS: In all sincerity I cannot remember.

MR VISSER: Were these hard slaps?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: What was the purpose behind that?

MR PRETORIUS: It was to create a psychosis of fear within the person if I might put it that way.

MR VISSER: In other words the person was to cooperate?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Very well. Let us return to paragraph 32. I beg your pardon, did you have the impression that she was material that could be used, that she could possibly be persuaded to cooperate?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson there in the vehicle I could literally see the fear in the eyes of the person. I could see that she was the type of person who would give her co-operation; that we would be able to persuade her.

MR VISSER: With regard to the assault which you describe in paragraph 32, did you apply any of those assaults to her yourself, those assaults which you described personally?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Which assaults did you commit against her?

MR PRETORIUS: By slapping her with a flat hand against her face and head. By then punching her with my fist in her sides and on her back. And then I was also part of the suffocation action on the particular person.

MR VISSER: Was any electric shock device used?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you - no, aware that there was any such device on the farm?

MR PRETORIUS: I didn't see anything like that and I wasn't aware of anything like that.

MR VISSER: Did you or anybody else in your presence kick her with the foot?

MR PRETORIUS: Not that I ever saw.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself do this?

MR PRETORIUS: No.

MR VISSER: This assault undertaken by you, in paragraph 33, you say this also took place in the apartment where you held her on the Saturday and the Sunday. It was also there that you slapped her and you punched her in the back and in the sides?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: These assaults, how serious were they?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I believe that they were reasonably serious, because if one decided to use the suffocation action, it would definitely not have been games, it was a serious matter.

MR VISSER: So the action of suffocation would be an action of torture?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Because the idea would be to hold the bag over her head until she could not longer breath and began to gasp for breath?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And would she also have been injured, received bruises and wounds, not surface wounds but below the surface wounds, as a result of the slapping and punching?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can you proceed from paragraph 34.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: How necessary was it for you to be convinced that she was serious about her intention to co-operate? Was that an important aspect?

MR PRETORIUS: I think it was a very important aspect of the situation.

MR VISSER: Was that also then part of the reason why she was assaulted?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: To make dead sure that she would not be telling you half truths, but that you had her full co-operation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Very well, proceed.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: Do I understand you correctly, Mr Pretorius, you began with a turning action which went along with coercion, which was applied to her by means of assaults?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Initially you were under the impression that she could possibly co-operate?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you reach a point where it became obvious that she had begun to co-operate with the police and that she would be prepared to do so in future?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: When did you yourself come to that conclusion? Where do you think this took place, that you could say we're not wasting our time, it would appear that she is going to co-operate?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, if I might explain it as follows, and I hope I'm doing so correctly, it would be that since our arrival upon the farm, or at least with every day that this particular person was in our presence she began to speak more and more open-heartedly with us and began to expose more and more MK activities to us and every day there were better signs that this person would work with us, with every day that we spent with her.

If I can get closer to a period of time when we were absolutely certain that we were on the right track with her, it would be between the second and the third week.

MR VISSER: So you say that this was a gradual process and that between the second and the third week you were at least convinced that she was going to co-operate?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: She gave information to you?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And you re referring to operations which are mentioned in paragraph 46, the Fairlands and Bryanston North Power Substations and the main railway line between Johannesburg and Natal. These actions were executed by the South African Police?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And with regard to the main railway line between Johannesburg and Natal, who was involved in this?

MR PRETORIUS: I was under the impression that the South African Railway Police at that stage had undertaken the operation.

MR VISSER: This false operation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was the main railway line indeed damaged or what was the situation?

MR PRETORIUS: Negative. If I might just elaborate. The newspaper report which appeared the following day in the media did state that the main railway line between Johannesburg and Natal had been damaged, but the initial order as I understood it, for the South African Railway Police, would be that they would damage a sideline.

MR VISSER: So this was misinformation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: With regard to C?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, with regard to C.

MR VISSER: Were you at, or involved in the Fairlands or Bryanston Power Substation matters?

MR PRETORIUS: I was personally involved in the Bryanston North Power Substation in Sandton.

MR VISSER: And who was there?

MR PRETORIUS: On the scene it was me and the deceased, Sergeant Langa.

MR VISSER: And you were not involved in the explosion of the Fairlands Power Substation?

MR PRETORIUS: No.

MR VISSER: With regard to your share in this false flag operation in bundle 2, on page 256, you have filed an amnesty application.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Now what was the result of these explosions? If you could refer to paragraph 48.

MR PRETORIUS: These explosions were necessary for us to let them take place, because Simelane had brought the order from Swaziland, that the agents, although they didn't know who the agents were, at least their units were to go ahead with the explosions.

MR VISSER: Which explosions are you referring to? The ones that Simelane spoke of.

MR PRETORIUS: Well she only brought the order and said: "The time is right, you must continue and execute the orders as they have been given to you from Swaziland".

MR VISSER: Very well. And how did you know that it was the Fairlands Power Substation and the Bryanston North Power Substation, as well as the main railway line between Johannesburg and Natal?

MR PRETORIUS: Before Simelane's arrest, Sergeant Mkhonza had been in Swaziland with the particular MK machinery. Mr Mkhonza was in Swaziland before the arrest of the particular person and in Swaziland he was in the presence of the relevant MK military machinery and that is where they discussed future military targets with him. So Sergeant Mkhonza knew exactly what the targets were about in South Africa.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 48, the second sentence.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: This is now Mkhonza and Langa?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson. To finish the paragraph:

MR VISSER: We know why you did it, it was to get the information from this person and to cross-control this information with information that already existed.

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was this done in her case?

MR PRETORIUS: Several times, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And did this satisfy you that you were getting a full disclosure from her?

MR PRETORIUS: Towards the end, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Continue with paragraph 50.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: Can you recall her number?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: This was after you were satisfied that she was recruited?

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: So could one get away very easily?

MR PRETORIUS: If you were away for two meters at night, nobody would have been able to find you again.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: Give us an idea, according to your recollection, how many nights did you spend there during these four or five weeks? Can you recall?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, unfortunately I cannot tell you exactly how many nights. It is indeed so that with the first week I was there for a reasonable time. Afterwards with several follow-up actions, I was busy with follow-up actions and I can quote certain actions where I went to the border of Swaziland with Sergeant Mong and so forth. This was a movement in and out. Towards the end I spent more time on the farm, but it would be a maximum of two nights at a time that I was present on the farm, Chairperson, that I can recall.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR PRETORIUS: I'm not sure which paragraph.

MR VISSER: You completed 53, you can go on with 54. What did you say?

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: I have to interrupt you again, Mr Pretorius. Mr Coetzee gave evidence as to what the detail or some of the detail this entailed. Can you recall what this entailed? Did you know anything of Mr Duma Nkosi?

MR PRETORIUS: I can recall the name, Duma Nkosi. I remember the name, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Any of these strategies which you mentioned here, do you recall the detail thereof?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, we realised that she was out of circulation for quite some time and there were certain points, if I could say that, that was to our advantage.

I think the first one which was the most important was the fact that she was sent into South Africa by a group of MK people who were not supposed to send her in. In other words, we knew exactly that we could exploit this point. In other words, to cause confusion in any explanation which she could give and that could be used.

Secondly, we realised that the passport and her clothing was on Mr Nkosi's premises and we could not afford to send her back to Mr Nkosi's house because this would be fatal and that is why Mr Coetzee developed some legend surrounding Mr Duma Nkosi, that she suspected that Mr Nkosi had worked for the South African Police. I don't know if that explanation is sufficient.

MR VISSER: Very well. And of course there were the false flag operations?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, we were always busy with false flag operations.

MR VISSER: Which would add credibility to Simelane, as I understand?

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well. Continue at paragraph 55.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: Do you agree with Mr Coetzee, that her direct contact person in Swaziland would be Sergeant Langa?

MR PRETORIUS: To meet him there, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And arrangements were made for such meetings and what would happen if a meeting did not take place?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So you concur with Mr Coetzee's evidence in this instance?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And in paragraph 57 you mention this.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: When was this?

MR PRETORIUS: Sir if I - it could have been a few months after Simelane was placed back, a month or two. I cannot recall exactly.

MR VISSER: Was this in 1983, according to your recollection or was it possibly later? Can you not remember?

MR PRETORIUS: If I could offer an explanation ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No, I would just like to know if you can recall.

MR PRETORIUS: No, I cannot remember exactly.

MR VISSER: Very well. Continue with paragraph 59.

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: And the evidence as it was put by my learned friend, Mr Lamey, is that this Mr X is Mr Veyi, who spoke to reporters from the Sowetan. He told him that this information he received from Mothiba. Are you aware that Mothiba would have conveyed this to Mr Veyi?

MR PRETORIUS: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And if he did convey such a message, do you know anything of the fact that Ms Simelane was killed by members of the police?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson, I deny that.

MR VISSER: And paragraph 59, what do you say is your conviction, the second sentence?

MR PRETORIUS:

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR PRETORIUS: I humbly request that amnesty be granted to me for my actions and omissions in this regard, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: This would be abduction, unlawful arrest and detention of Ms Simelane. If we could have regard to page 2. Her assault and torture to which you were part, conspiracy and accessory to abduction and any other deed which may emanate from any other evidence led here.

Mr Pretorius, before we conclude your evidence, may I just ask you, Mr Veyi, Nimrod Veyi, in Exhibit S on page 6, paragraph 8 - this is Exhibit S on page 11. I see it is written by hand, Mr Chairman. Paragraph 8, he says that he spoke to Mothiba and that he said that Coetzee and Pretorius, that's yourself, would have shot Ms Simelane and killed her and had buried her in Rustenburg. You already said that you deny that.

And then he says he had forgotten to mention that on the farm at Northum there was a Constable Patrick Kobe, K-O-B-E, and he says that this is the person who is currently stationed at the taxi unit in Heidelberg. Do you know a Constable Kobe?

MR PRETORIUS: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was he a member of the Intelligence Unit that had worked with you?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was he on the farm, as far as you remember?

MR PRETORIUS: As far as I recall he was not there, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Selamolela, through his legal representative put it to Mr Coetzee here that - maybe I am mistaken, it is on page 568 of bundle 3, Mr Chairman, paragraph 8 he says that he was withdrawn at some day on the farm and this was the last time when he saw Ms Simelane, but he can remember that he told him that you would lock her up, as in a prison. And he says that he thought that you would take her to a police station.

Now firstly, can you recall a conversation with Selamolela where you told him that you would lock up Simelane?

MR PRETORIUS: Negative, Chairperson, I cannot remember this.

MR VISSER: Now if it is so that you did tell him, and as you sit here today and think back and think about this turning situation, would it be strange if you had told him this?

MR PRETORIUS: I don't think so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why not?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, at that stage she was regarded as an informer and it was not necessary for Mr Selamolela to know that she was an informer and what type of work she would be doing for us.

MR VISSER: You - in cross-questioning, certain aspects were touched upon with regard to the transport of her from the farm. Can you please say who transported her away from the farm?

MR PRETORIUS: As far as I know it was Mr Mong and Mr Mothiba.

MR VISSER: And where did they take her to?

MR PRETORIUS: To Potchefstroom, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Were you there in Potchefstroom?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I was, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What did you do there?

MR PRETORIUS: I attended a meeting with Mr Coetzee, at that time the Divisional Commander of Security Western Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Did you see Simelane again that day after the meeting?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where was this?

MR PRETORIUS: What I can recall is, Chairperson, it was in Potchefstroom or close to the industrial area of Potchefstroom.

MR VISSER: And what did you do there?

MR PRETORIUS: We received her there, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If you say "we" or "us"?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, it was Mr Coetzee and I. We received her from Mr Mong and Mr Mothiba.

MR VISSER: She was taken to the car and placed in the car?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: In front or at the back?

MR PRETORIUS: In the back seat, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did she sit down or was she lying down?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Coetzee asked her to lie down.

MR VISSER: Was she cuffed when you received her?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was she wearing?

MR PRETORIUS: If I can recall correctly it was the clothing which I had, which we had bought for her, but I cannot remember what type of clothing.

MR VISSER: But what I want to know is, was she wearing a brown police uniform?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And from Potchefstroom, or from the time that you loaded her into the vehicle, where did she go to?

MR PRETORIUS: Just outside the town of Potchefstroom we met Sergeant Langa.

MR VISSER: And then?

MR PRETORIUS: And we handed Simelane over to him and Mr Coetzee gave them instructions to have final a discussion and get their story together, to sort out things with each other. And then at some later stage the same day we would meet with them close to Soweto.

MR VISSER: Did you agree on a place?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was it along the road?

MR PRETORIUS: It was just along the road, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And was there such a meeting?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Were you present?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I was.

MR VISSER: Were final arrangements with Langa and Simelane made?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: By Mr Coetzee?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you also participate?

MR PRETORIUS: I believe that I would also have spoken, Chairperson, but Mr Coetzee was the chief speaker in this regard, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what happened afterwards to Simelane?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I think this was the last day that I saw Simelane. Mr Langa and Simelane and Sergeant Mothiba drove away from there to the Eastern Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Did you ever afterwards hear what had happened to her?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What do you think had happened to her?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, something might have gone wrong. That is the suspicion I have. Something must have gone wrong in Swaziland and that the explanations which she had given to her commanders did not work, may not have worked,

MR VISSER: And that what had happened to her then?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I can mention many instances. The strategy of the MK at that stage was if a person was under suspicion, that person would be taken away from that neighbouring State to Angola or to Zambia, depending on the circumstances of that person.

MR VISSER: There was evidence, or it was put here that because of the relationship between Duma Nkosi and Mpho in Swaziland, the was story that she worked out in his instance would not have worked. Were you aware thereof that this story would not have worked when you had thought up this cover story?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You thought it would work?

MR PRETORIUS: We believed that it would work, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you know that Mr Duma Nkosi was indeed, a day or two after the abduction of Simelane he reported the fact that she disappeared to MK in Swaziland?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: With regard to the assaults, you said it was during the first week, and after the first week were there any other assaults?

MR PRETORIUS: If I refer to the first week's assaults, then I refer to the serious types of assaults which we used. And we also used the suffocating method and after the first week when there was some conflict or when we felt that Simelane was lying to us, or she did not speak in a manner that we believed she should speak, she would receive one or two slaps or a few punches in the side. She would receive that.

MR VISSER: So you say those assaults were not very serious?

MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: But the first ones were?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you ever personally enquire anywhere to find out what had happened to Simelane? And I'm not talking about enquiries in Swaziland, but maybe at the other Security Branches.

MR PRETORIUS: If I may put it in the following, Chairperson, it would have been very strange to make such enquiries. And if I can offer an explanation as to how the system worked at that stage, which may shed some light on what we believed, it is that all information that was received by the security was fed into a system. There was the old telex system at that stage, that normal reports were circulated. Mr Coetzee and myself studied all intelligence from all over the country that was received. Our information ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: May I interrupt here. In these reports which you received after this, was there any reference as to what may have happened to Ms Simelane?

MR PRETORIUS: I did not encounter anything like this, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You are also aware that Mr Mkhonza was placed in plaster-of-paris as a cover story for him, as to why he allegedly did not meet with Simelane.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, this was the first time my memory was jogged here yesterday ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Please excuse me, I have led you now and I have made a mistake, that was Mr Coetzee. What do you know of this plaster-of-paris?

MR PRETORIUS: I can recall such an incident, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So you do not deny that it did happen?

MR PRETORIUS: I can recall something to that effect, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee has given evidence with regard to an agreement with Simelane, did you know anything of that?

MR PRETORIUS: I've lost you there for a second, can you repeat please.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee has given evidence that, or with effect to some agreement which was made with Simelane with regard to the disclosure of the fact that she would be a source of informant.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I can recall personally where Simelane at some point said to me that she was worried that so many black colleagues of ours knew of her presence there and knew her and this is what worried her. I would believe that she - I cannot specifically or I was not specifically present where she and Mr Coetzee discussed this, but I can recall that she personally told me that she was worried why so many black members were present there.

MR VISSER: Was a decision given taken and an undertaking given to her that the recruitment of her as an informer would be covered up from the black members?

MR PRETORIUS: From some of them, yes.

MR VISSER: Specifically not Mothiba?

MR PRETORIUS: No, he was part of us.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lamey, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Pretorius, before the incident of Simelane, at how many turning actions were you involved, or your unit or yourself?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I cannot exactly remember how many turning actions we were involved in, there was a reasonable number.

MR LAMEY: So you were involved in several instances. CHAIRPERSON: And with women, women whom you turned?

MR PRETORIUS: There were a few.

CHAIRPERSON: Before this?

MR PRETORIUS: Before the Simelane incident.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR PRETORIUS: It's SWT66 to which we referred, this was a turning action, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: A similar incident where you tortured a person?

MR PRETORIUS: No, no, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was not necessary.

MR PRETORIUS: No, that was very easy, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you speak to her there?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I was not present when she was arrested with her entrance from Swaziland and she was in possession of an F1 defensive handgrenade.

CHAIRPERSON: SWT66 was also a trained MK member.

MR PRETORIUS: I could say so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't have to assault her?

MR PRETORIUS: No, she gave us her total co-operation right from the start.

CHAIRPERSON: Without any assault?

MR PRETORIUS: Without any assault, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.

With previous turning actions, can you recall or do you know if other black members were involved?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, definitely, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall if Mr Veyi and Mr Selamolela were present with other turning actions?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: In this Simelane instance, according to you Mr Veyi and Mr Selamolela, and I refer specifically to them as my clients and as part of the black members of the group, they knew of the purpose of the exercise, whether before or during this action, that it would be a turning action.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, if I could say, I was also informed just like them. If I could refer to the first day, the specific Saturday, Mr Veyi and Selamolela just like me was informed that we would abduct this person to turn her.

MR LAMEY: Let's take you back to the list of names. At a meeting you specifically referred to Mr Selamolela and Mr Veyi, are you sure of their presence there?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Why are you so sure?

MR PRETORIUS: Because I can remember them.

MR LAMEY: Yes, but one can place someone at a scene, but that you can made a bona fide mistake about it. Is it possible that you are mistaken?

MR PRETORIUS: I don't think that I am making a mistake with Veyi and Selamolela.

MR LAMEY: With certain previous turning actions where your other members were also involved, can you give us a list of names in each of these situations, who were present there? Can you give us a complete list of who was there?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, if the Honourable Sir could mention a specific operation, then I could give him a list as to who was ...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: How many turning actions were you and your members of the unit involved with?

MR PRETORIUS: No, it's impossible for me, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Are you able to say with all those instances of abduction and turning, where you can't even mention the number, who all the members were who in each instance were present?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, this particular Sir is talking about a wide spectrum. I can mention the Lengene incident which was a year before that. I can remember with certainty who was present there. Mr Selamolela was personally present there, in the Lengene matter.

MR LAMEY: If you cannot recall at how many turning actions you were involved with, how can you say with certainty who were all present at these turning actions?

MR PRETORIUS: It's very easy. This was an extraordinary matter as well as the Lengene matter, which I also applied for amnesty for. It is indeed so that there are some things which one could remember of in one instance than in another instance.

MR LAMEY: What makes this matter so specific?

MR PRETORIUS: This was an abduction, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And the others?

MR PRETORIUS: The others were not abductions.

MR LAMEY: So how did you turn the others' heads?

MR PRETORIUS: I've already mentioned SWT66. She came into the country and was caught in possession of an F1 handgrenade. The choice was put to her: "We will charge you or you co-operate with us". In some cases it was literally just that easy.

MR LAMEY: With regard to this turning question of Simelane, you said she was worried about the presence of certain black members.

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: When did she voice this concern?

MR PRETORIUS: I would say this was after the first week, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: With regard to certain black members?

MR PRETORIUS: My words were that she was worried that there were so many black members present. I can just add to this, in many instances the first thing - and I think your clients can testify to that, in many instances where they were present where persons were recruited, that in many instances they said they were scared of the black members because they could not trust them, they would rather talk to the white members.

MR LAMEY: Also in the past?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, such incidents did happen where they did not want to speak to other black members.

MR LAMEY: Are you talking about previous turning actions?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: What did she say, she was concerned about the presence of black members or the amount of black members, or certain black members? What was her concern specifically?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, for any future agent or informant it was the greatest fear to be caught out, that he or she at that stage was working for the State. And it was indeed so that the more people - there's some idiom that says that one or two can keep a secret, but three cannot keep a secret, and it was applicable here. She was concerned as to why there were so many people and we were eat the phase where we had started with her recruitment and she was concerned that one of these members could turn around and say: "This is an informer ..." ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what she told you?

MR PRETORIUS: This was her concern, that one of the members, because ...

...(end of Side A of tape)

... evidence has been before the Commission that some of the members would come and go and they disappear for a few days and they come back again. If I was a person who was recruited, I would be very careful in such a situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what did she tell you?

MR PRETORIUS: She was concerned with the many members who came there. She did not want the black members to know that she was going to work with us.

CHAIRPERSON: So she was worried about the many members that came there.

MR PRETORIUS: Who came there, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What members, all the members?

MR PRETORIUS: No, she specifically referred to the black members.

CHAIRPERSON: So she said: "I am worried about all these black members that come here." What else did she say?

MR PRETORIUS: Then at that stage, Sir, we were recruiting her.

CHAIRPERSON: What else did she say?

MR PRETORIUS: That she felt that only specific people could work with her. What I can recall, Chairperson, is that this is the reason why Sergeant Mothiba, we told her that ...(indistinct) would take place in front of Sergeant Mothiba, not before the other members.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she satisfied?

MR PRETORIUS: She was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: She agreed that Mr Mothiba can be present?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did she say about the others?

MR PRETORIUS: She never said anything to me which I can recall at this stage, just that she had this fear that she did not want the other members to know that she was in a recruitment programme with us.

CHAIRPERSON: She did not have anything specific against those persons?

MR PRETORIUS: She didn't say that to me, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Did you not tell her; "Listen all these members know and they were all informed at some briefing session before that you are being detained here for the purposes of turning you"? Did you not tell her this?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, what I can recall is that I told her that we are in a programme and that is why in my application I said that at the end there were less members present on the farm. We worked according to a system without creating any suspicion or antagonism with the other members, to phase them out from the firm so that only Mothiba could speak to her with regard to this turning action.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. What did she say about the Mozambican that was there?

MR PRETORIUS: Nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: She didn't have problems with him?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, Strongman's participation or involvement was, at the last stages he was used as I have said previously. He could speak English, but he could not interpret. He was only there as security guard and to help with the food, to help with the logistics of the place.

CHAIRPERSON: But he was present most on the farm.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, he was like a guard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. He was the person who was on the farm the most?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: She didn't have a problem with that?

MR PRETORIUS: She did not voice this to me, that she had a problem with Strongman, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Is that why Mr Mothiba was involved with the reorientation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, he was the leading figure.

MR LAMEY: I'd just like to return. You did not answer this question for me properly. You did not tell her: "Listen, all the members who are here you can trust, I trust them and that is why they are part of the unit, they know that this is a turning action, they know who these cover persons in Swaziland were" and that there was nothing that she was to be concerned with? You did not tell her this?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I believe that I might have said this to her, that she need not be worried about the members who were all present there because if I had a concern, they would not be there. I would believe that I have told her further that: "We will out her handling programme with Mothiba and not with them", and that makes a big difference.

MR LAMEY: But despite these words that you spoke to her, you gave into her request that most of the black members be withdrawn when you were specifically busy with her reorientation, is that correct?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I have lost you there, can you repeat.

MR LAMEY: Despite your conveyance to her and your putting her at ease, you complied with her request and had withdrawn most of the black members except for Mothiba, while you and Coetzee were busy with her reorientation, is that correct?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, if I could explain it in the following way. What Mr Coetzee did was that he was in the position to arrange who had to stay at the farm and who did not have to be there. He made the arrangements. Then he would send this person this way and he'd call that person that way or send him back to Soweto. He made sure that Mothiba and himself, and at certain times I was also present, where we were alone with this person and the other members were not there.

MR LAMEY: This was when you were involved with the reorientation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: So it's correct what I am putting to you, that when, to comply with her request with regard to this concern of hers about the presence of most of these black members, you had withdrawn all the other members from sessions where reorientation was at hand?

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Lamey. And at what point was this, week one, two, three?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, if I must make an estimation I would say from the third week.

MR LAMEY: Lengene, was he involved with that reorientation?

MR PRETORIUS: An incident which I recall very well with regard to Lengene, as I have said previously, Lengene in the same manner was not even a year before that brought from Botswana.

One day Lengene and I were present where we sat with her the whole day and Lengene had to explain to her that he was in a similar situation as her, that we orientated him to work for us and that he was working for us and he was now a police official and everything had changed. In other words I would like to say that Lengene had to be aware that we were turning her, because I was tasked to explain that process to her with Lengene, that nothing would happen to her if she worked with us because there was a person here who was in the same situation about a year ago.

MR LAMEY: Was Lengene also withdrawn later?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And Strongman, was he involved with the reorientation?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, as I have said previously, Strongman did not play a role with anything with regard to the lady, how can I say, with regard to operational arrangements. He was there to watch her, to guide her, to safeguard the place. I would like to say he was the administrative logistical person, he had nothing to do with this action.

MR LAMEY: Was he not involved with the questioning and reorientation?

MR PRETORIUS: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Can you please have a look at paragraph 30 of your exhibit? There you have a list of names and you say:

And then you say:

My concern is Veyi and that is why I'm asking you, is this list correct?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, as I had said there, members who visited the farm and helped with her reorientation. I did not give a definite division as to who did what. The question was whether Strongman had helped with the reorientation, and my answer is "no".

MR LAMEY: But you mentioned him in the list.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, as a person who visited the farm.

MR LAMEY: This has nothing to do with the visit to the farm, this has to do with the reorientation and there is a list there. It doesn't stop at the farm visit.

MR PRETORIUS: This is how I saw it there.

MR LAMEY: But it is not said there that he visited the farm just to guard the people, this is with the objectivity and reorientation of the person.

MR PRETORIUS: He was not involved with the reorientation.

MR LAMEY: But that is what I want to know.

MR PRETORIUS: And that is why I say, the paragraph may create the wrong impression, that I may have faulted in putting it in this context.

MR LAMEY: Well I would like to tell you if you're at fault with this list of names, you may as well be wrong with the previous list of names where this, at this meeting where this turning action was conveyed to Veyi and Selamolela.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I stick to the list of names of persons who were there and I said there might have been other persons who may have been present, these are the people whom I can remember that were present.

MR LAMEY: My instructions from Mr Veyi and Selamolela are that they did periodically, as you say, visit the farm, left, went back. Their impression from their observation and their inferences that they draw is that during the questioning, as late as the fourth or fifth week was that the person, it was not a turning action, it was an interrogation, an intensive interrogation which was accompanied by assaults to draw information from an MK person who would not give her co-operation.

MR PRETORIUS: That is not correct, Chairperson, that person gave her co-operation. I did not hold her hand when she wrote that information for us, she did it on her own.

MR LAMEY: I would like to return to the false flag operations, the explosions at the power stations. Can you tell us what Simelane's role here was?

MR PRETORIUS: Basically she brought the message that they could continue with the explosions as it was discussed by them.

MR LAMEY: Who is "they"?

MR PRETORIUS: This is Sergeant Mkhonza and Sergeant Langa.

MR LAMEY: She brought a message that they had to continue with the explosions?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: When did she convey this, was it during the interrogation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: It was not said before by Mkhonza, for example, that he would meet Simelane with the purpose that she would bring some message or give some instructions with regard to planned actions by MK?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, Mr Mkhonza knew, they knew that there was person on the way with a message with regard to ...(no further interpretation)

MR LAMEY: Mr Mkhonza says his instructions from Mpho, the MK commander in Swaziland, was that he would be the person and this person would hand over certain information to her. He didn't know whether it was soft material or hard material or whether it was information or whatever.

MR PRETORIUS: Did the gentleman say that Mpho conveyed these messages? I missed the first bit. Do you say Mpho said so or do you say ...(no further interpretation)

MR LAMEY: I said, Mkhonza will say that the MK in Swaziland gave him instructions that the person would be met, who would be Simelane, and later that she would hand over certain information to him.

MR PRETORIUS: That statement is only halfway correct. If I can recall, Mkhonza reported back that in Swaziland, he was with his MK commanders in Swaziland and that he told him that a courier would come in. They did not tell him that it would be a man or a woman. If they told him it was a woman, then he did not give us all the information.

MR LAMEY: Can I just stop you right there? My instructions are that he may have said it to Coetzee, that is a woman, he knew it was a woman.

MR PRETORIUS: I did not know that he told Coetzee it was a woman, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Did you know that she would hand over certain material to him?

MR PRETORIUS: ... if the instructions included some material, I don't know, Chairperson, if it was any terrorist matters or whatever.

MR LAMEY: It would appear from our bundle that the section pertaining to your amnesty application with regard to the power station is also contained therein. You say that Simelane was supposed to bring a message for them to go ahead with the explosion.

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: This message, after this came to light during interrogation, was supposed to go back to Mkhonza?

MR PRETORIUS: I believe so, because he was part of the action and we were supposed to make these explosions take place and they would have to be part of it because they would have to report back to confirm that it had taken place.

MR LAMEY: So it was reported to Langa and Mkhonza? If they had had that order from Swaziland for the explosions to take place, why was it necessary for Simelane to bring a message for them to go ahead with it if they had already received the order?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, the ANC, if I may give them credit, they didn't simply send people in and tell them to plant a bomb wherever, there were specific order for specific times and I don't know what the Transvaal military machinery's onslaught at that stage was and what was the timing and so forth.

MR LAMEY: I have studied your amnesty application in which you mention these specific incidents, on page 246, a specific event, up until page 463 and nowhere is there any mention or reference to Simelane as a person who had told you to continue with such actions after reorientation.

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct. If I could ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think that she told them that they were supposed to go ahead with the action.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the "they" refers to Mkhonza and the other one.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: But as I understand Mr Pretorius' evidence, Simelane said that they were to continue with this action.

ADV DE JAGER: So that would have to be conveyed to Mkhonza and Langa, or would that be the message that she was to convey for them to go ahead?

MR LAMEY: As I understand Mr Pretorius' evidence, we must remember that Mkhonza and Langa were not present during the interrogation and this was her admission to Coetzee and Pretorius, that they were to continue with the action.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I understand, but it's not for Pretorius and the others to go ahead, it's for Mkhonza and Langa to go ahead.

MR LAMEY: Very well. I don't think that that really differs from the question that I want to pose to you because in your statement regarding the second event, mention is made of how these false flag operations were executed. However, there is no mention of Simelane anywhere here, that she too emphasised the importance of continuing the actions during her interrogation or her reorientation.

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, but if you read it correctly you will understand that precisely the same agents and informers, such as SWT66, Mkhonza and Langa were used. And when I was busy compiling these amnesty applications I was under the impression I would have the opportunity to give thorough explanations surrounding certain issues, as I have received today, the opportunity to explain exactly what happened. I was also advised - if I could just explain to you for example, without wasting too much time, my initial application was a very longwinded affidavit and I was advised to collate all this information into specific grouping according to the offences for which I am requesting amnesty and that is probably what may have happened there.

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I just want to make certain of my instructions here, I just want to be absolutely certain.

MR VISSER: While there is a space of time, Chairperson, I'm not interrupting my learned friend, I think if I don't we might finish sooner, but my learned is not entirely correct in putting these questions because if you read from page 456 to the point where you reach page 460, where he deals with these attacks, it's quite clear that it all ties in with what they knew at that stage about the Transvaal military machinery from Swaziland, and yes, it's true, Simelane's name is not mentioned here. But in context, Chairperson, it's perhaps not all that fair to say that there is no reference to any information having been received, because it all ties in. You've got to read from page 456 onwards. But I'm not interrupting.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, I have my instructions.

Mr Pretorius, my instructions fro RS243, Mr Mkhonza, are that the explosion of these power stations had absolutely nothing to do with Simelane.

MR PRETORIUS: I deny that emphatically, it had to do with her.

MR LAMEY: I would like to tell you more about what my instructions are, and they are that Mr Mkhonza had instructions that an action was to take place at the military base in Wits, you are aware of that?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I can recall something like that.

MR LAMEY: Where handgrenades were to be tossed?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Now this was the order to him from MK, and that was during a parade.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, but that was before the arrest or abduction then of Simelane.

MR LAMEY: Yes, indeed, it was before the arrest. This action at Wits, at the military base where the handgrenades were to be tossed into the parade, created quite a dilemma. In order to maintain the credibility of your deep cover-agents, it was decided, it was the brainchild of Coetzee, possibly also you within your unit, that the explosion of power stations should be investigated instead, to ensure the credibility of these deep cover-agents.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I deny this. I don't know anything about that which Mr Mkhonza has imparted to his legal representative.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mkhonza has instructed me that he did not have specific instructions from MK in Swaziland to blow up these power stations.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, Mr Mkhonza, according to my recollection, during his visit before the abduction of Simelane, returned and reported what the ANC had told him and one of these instructions was to bomb power stations and railway lines. And he had also mentioned targets to them which he could possibly blow up so that he could preserve his credibility later on and indicate that he was indeed capable of doing this. If now, 16 years after the fact, Mr Mkhonza comes along and gives us a different story, it's a complete distortion of what he told us at that stage.

MR LAMEY: If you will grant me a moment please. You were present when I put it to Mr Coetzee, with regard to the assault on Ms Simelane. I accept your version, and to save time I'm not going to discuss everything, I accept that you differ and that your version is more-or-less similar to that of Mr Coetzee.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: I don't know, Chairperson, whether you expect of me to put every single aspect to this witness as I did with Mr Coetzee. I'm willing to do so should it be necessary because the two applications appear to be the same. I do not wish to waste any time unnecessarily with regard to the assault, as they have explained it's course, how many times it took place and so forth. I should assume that it took place according to the way they put it.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. You have heard what Mr Lamey put to your former colleague, Mr Coetzee, with regard to the assaults and the duration thereof and the apparent effect thereof on Ms Simelane. You have heard all those statements, what is your commentary with regard to the version of the applicants represented by Mr Lamey.

MR PRETORIUS: What I can remember, Chairperson, is that the first week had the most serious degree of assault and after that I cannot remember up until which precise stage she was periodically, or not periodically but intermittently assaulted. When Mr Coetzee realised that she may have told a lie or that there were certain unclarities in what she was saying, she would be slapped or punched.

However, I deny emphatically that she was so gravely assaulted up to and including the last day. Furthermore, I deny that she was unable to walk, she was able to walk. But it is so, Chairperson, that a person who was bound in leg-irons had to be assisted to walk. I don't know whether it is that aspect to which the applicant on my right is referring. I cannot assure you that anything else didn't happen, I just know that we had to assist her with walking at those times when she was bound in leg-irons. I don't know whether I have answered your question sufficiently, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that would then be your version according to Mr Lamey's remark. It is very much similar to the version presented by Mr Coetzee. Was she ever assaulted to the extent that she soiled or wet herself and had to be thrown into the dam to wash herself?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, regarding the first aspect of your question, the first part of interrogation was always very harsh and I do recall that she did soil or wet herself, to express it that way, but with regard to her being thrown into the dam I cannot say anything, that she did wash there. As Mr Coetzee said, we brought her a blue enamel dish at one stage, in which she could wash. However, we did not throw her into the dam. I was not present at any time when we threw her into the dam.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did she soil or wet herself?

MR PRETORIUS: As I have said it was during the first week and it may have happened several times, however I cannot say exactly how many times. I would say about three to four times.

CHAIRPERSON: And how was she cleaned?

MR PRETORIUS: She had to clean herself.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR PRETORIUS: Behind the house and many times inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Not in the dam?

MR PRETORIUS: As I've said, behind the house near the dam. There were many cases where she had to go and wash herself there, but that was the only place where there was available water. There was no tap with running water as such, as I can recall, from which one could tap water or pour water.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Lamey?

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, Mr Lamey, before you continue. What about the swelling of the face, do you confirm what Mr Coetzee ...(intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, definitely, her face was swollen and if I can remember correctly she had a very light complexion and it was clearly visible.

ADV GCABASHE: And the eyes as well, one, two swollen, you couldn't quite recall?

MR PRETORIUS: I would say that her eyes were swollen as a result of her light complexion. It looked worse than what it may have been, if I might put it that way. However, one could see clearly that her eyes were thicker than usual.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also confirm that you did not give her any medical treatment.

MR PRETORIUS: No, there was none.

MR LAMEY: Mr Pretorius, I would just like to put it to you for completion's sake, that her sleep was restricted to a minimum.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, if I might offer a possible explanation for that, I think that Mr Coetzee has already said this and I will repeat his sentiments. We were not always there, but it did happen that when we were there we tried accomplish a maximum level of work and it may have been that we worked until late at night on many of those evenings. And I'm sure that we can agree that Mr Coetzee was a very efficient, he could work for long hours, but it is not as if we kept her up all night and every night, according to the statement that the applicant over there wishes to put.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, it was part of the process of breaking her. You would not only assault her, but you would also deprive her of sleep?

MR PRETORIUS: That we deprived her of her sleep and that we spent many hours interrogating her, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that part of the strategy in breaking her down?

MR PRETORIUS: On the one hand, if I had to say yes today, but at that stage I think that was more Mr Coetzee's modus operandi. It was also part of the plan of breaking her down.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he such a hard worker that when he interrogated you ...(intervention)?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, he was a very hard worker, but what I mean by that is that we worked very long hours. In other words, in order to explain I could say that we had many cases that we were dealing with and we would arrive there at 4 o'clock the afternoon after spending the day in Soweto and we would stay up until about 11 o'clock at night with the person and interrogate her and tell her: "Write these things" and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was not purposeful as such?

MR PRETORIUS: Well I can't remember, Chairperson, and I understand what you are aiming at. It's not that we told her: "You have to stand here for the following day all the time, you may not sit down, you may not sleep". That never happened in my presence, I never saw that and I don't know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: So you dispute that statement?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, if that is the statement that this gentleman is aiming to make.

CHAIRPERSON: That is how I understand it.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, then I will dispute it.

MR LAMEY: Maybe I could just achieve some clarity about this, Chairperson, I was simply quoting from his amnesty application in which it said:

Perhaps I should just receive instructions. Thank you, Chairperson. My instructions are as follows, Mr Pretorius, what I mean by that is that there were occasions upon which you and Mr Coetzee returned, that you had not been on the farm and then the interrogation had not been continued in your absence. In other words, the interrogation took place only in your presence.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I understand that, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And during those interrogation sessions her sleep was kept to a minimum.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I have already ...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: In other words, she became tired and she was assaulted and you continued the interrogation, but when you departed she would resume her normal sleep patterns?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I think we could state that with relative correctness.

MR LAMEY: Is it correct that you and Coetzee were the ones who led the interrogation?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, and Mr Mong, along with some of the other black members who were present.

MR LAMEY: Yes, but you were the leaders of the interrogation.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Coetzee was the commanding officer and I was his deputy.

MR LAMEY: Yes, but he led it?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And he would begin it and he would end it?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: With regard to the sleep being kept to a minimum, with regard to hours, would it be until 4 o'clock in the morning or what are the further particulars that we could gain from that?

MR PRETORIUS: ...(no audible reply)

MR LAMEY: I hope this will be of assistance, my instructions from Mr Veyi are that during these interrogation session it happened more-or-less as follows, that she would be interrogated and also then assaulted during these sessions, then at a certain stage she would appear to be tired and she would be given the opportunity to rest for a while, say 30 minutes to an hour, then she would reawaken and they would continue with the whole session. So it seems to me as if these sessions functioned on an on/off basis. However, the sum total of that is that her sleep was kept to a minimum. That is my instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that this was continuously the situation while she was detained on the farm?

MR LAMEY: Yes, that was during the interrogation sessions on the farm. There were occasions that Coetzee and Pretorius were not present on the farm and during those times the interrogation did not continue.

CHAIRPERSON: But was this the case during the complete four to five weeks that she spent on the farm, or was this only during the first week?

MR LAMEY: Well then let me just get instructions once again. That was my initial impression, but I will just make certain. Yes, I confirm that this took place throughout the entire period of time, that the depravations and assaults continued until she was withdrawn from the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. You have the statement, do you have any reaction to that?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, he's correct when he says that during the interrogation sessions we wanted to spend maximum time with that particular person because Mr Coetzee and I had to return regularly. However, just as he says that, there were also many days that we didn't spend with this person and during that time she would rest, unless she was interrogated by the others. But there were times that Coetzee and I and some of the other white officers were not there at all and there were only black officers with her.

And just to give you an example, there were incidents where limpet mines were planted and I was injured because Sergeant Langa fell on me and I was hospitalised and put out of circulation for a few days. The point that I'm trying to make is that it is correct if it is said that while we were there, we spent maximum time with her. However, she had much time, in fact more time free, when we were not with her, except during the first week because the first week was heavy and intense interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: But would you interrogate her and if she appeared tired you would allow her to rest for a little while, about 30 minutes, allow her to fall asleep and then reawaken her and continue with the session?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, but it was our primary objective to win that person's favour at the end of the day.

MR LAMEY: Mr Pretorius, did the other members have order whatsoever to interrogate her when Coetzee specifically, and you were not there?

MR PRETORIUS: I can tell you that I was left alone there a number of times when Coetzee gave me orders such as: "Complete those photo identifications" or "Let her rewrite that story, something like that. And I know that there were occasions when there were black members who remained behind, who were specifically tasked to perform certain duties. Officers such as Mr Mong were given orders to undertake certain interrogation functions and identification functions and so forth.

MR LAMEY: But when we speak of subordinates such as Veyi and the others, they would not have acted alone or on their own initiative and undertaken interrogation when you or Coetzee were not on the farm?

MR PRETORIUS: They had instructions.

MR LAMEY: Did they have instructions to interrogate in your absence?

MR PRETORIUS: Well to ensure that the person would study the photo identification albums, to ensure that the person would study the documents and clear up any written statements that she had made. They were interpreters.

MR LAMEY: Was this only when you were there?

MR PRETORIUS: No, when we were not there as well. There were policemen. Sergeant Selamolela was a Sergeant and I think that he was competent enough to undertake such functions.

MR LAMEY: Well unfortunately he is not here, he had to return. He had to go for a neck operation. I will take instructions from him tomorrow morning. Let me just once again obtain instructions from Mr Veyi with regard to this.

My instructions from Mr Veyi are that photo identifications took place during the interrogation sessions, in which they may have assisted while you and Coetzee were present, but that they did not have instructions to undertake this upon their own initiative or alone, after your departure.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, any former MK terrorists who was captured could testify here today that to go through one of those photo albums would take a few hours, and then to go through the identification process to say: "Who is that person, how do you know that person, what were they involved in, what infiltrations were they involved in", would take a number of days.

And this would be, according to my recollection, functions that these members assisted us with, because they had to see that this person would compile these affidavits, or not these affidavits, these statements and identify the persons and complete the information as much as possible.

And in my wildest dreams, Chairperson, I would never think that the clients of this gentleman could not have remained still on that farm while we were not there, it is not as if they were sentries that stood in front of the door, that's totally absurd.

MR LAMEY: No, but that's not what they're saying.

MR PRETORIUS: They were there to assist with the guarding of the subject and to assist with the extraction of the information in our absence. That is what I remember.

MR LAMEY: Would they also have assaulted her in your absence if they saw that she was not bringing her full co-operation?

MR PRETORIUS: I cannot comment on that, however they were in the position to do that, if I may express it like that.

MR LAMEY: With regard to these instructions to extract information by means of interrogation and to undertake the photo identifications did this take place after the first week?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson I think that the main extraction of information took place after the first week, because as I can recall during that first week we could not sit still with the person and say give us a description. In other words it would be a question of her asking something, us assaulting her; her saying something wrong; us questioning her again. I don't really have a word to denote that sort of interrogation. But from the second week onwards things were more systematic when it came to the extraction of information. In other words as already testified by Mr Coetzee we would tell her right, about the MK military machinery of the Transvaal, tell us who all the members are, what you know about them, where they are, who they are, and that is what she would have to do.

Every time that I can recall where I was present before we left we gave pertinent instructions for her to write about specific subjects and the members who remained behind had to see to it that she would do that, because we returned or when Coetzee returned he would want those reports.

MR LAMEY: But did you give instructions to the other members that when they remained behind they should continue with the extraction of information, for example that they would not assault the woman?

MR PRETORIUS: I cannot recall any instruction that was given by Coetzee or me that a person should be or should not be assaulted. There was no such instruction.

MR LAMEY: But during that first week she had been gravely assaulted until it appeared that she was going to give her co-operation.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes that's correct and after that it ceased with the exception of the odd slap here and there.

MR LAMEY: Did the danger not exist that if such an order was not given to the remaining staff members that such a turning action would be jeopardised?

MR PRETORIUS: I think that is what Mr Coetzee tried to explain, the reason why we always had two members present there, so that there could be no illegitimate actions without us knowing about it, that the one - or at least if there was only one person there we could foresee the possibility of problems and the idea was for two members to be there, for the one to watch the other, so that we wouldn't have other problems, if I might explain it as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there ever any complaints of other problems?

MR PRETORIUS: No, not to me. Not that I heard of.

CHAIRPERSON: And from Simelane?

MR PRETORIUS: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any signs of other problems?

MR PRETORIUS: No, I think that the members who were present, if I might put it like this, Mr Coetzee was very strict about instructions and he would not have tolerated any kind of impropriety.

MR LAMEY: Mr Selamolela, my instructions from him are that when he left the farm or was instructed to leave the farm and he says here in paragraph 8 on page 568 he was one of the first to leave, he said that you and Coetzee and Radebe remained behind when they left the farm. Is it correct that Radebe remained until the very end?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson I can't recall that Radebe remained until the very end. I cannot recall that.

MR LAMEY: But what is perhaps more important is that he was still dressed in this brown, or she was still dressed in the brown clothing which was given to her at the beginning and there was no talk of toiletries and so forth which were given to her. Might I just ask you at what stage this took place, the handing over of clothing and toiletries to her, at what stage of her stay on the farm?

MR PRETORIUS: I should say during the last two weeks, but toiletries would include toilet paper and there was toilet paper as I remember.

MR LAMEY: No I am talking about cosmetic toiletries.

MR PRETORIUS: Well I would say that this would be from the last two weeks onwards.

CHAIRPERSON: So before then there was nothing?

MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson the basic facilities were there, such as toiletries, I mean we were not inhuman. I can also tell you that we had ration packs which at that stage were available, they are commonly referred to as "rat packs", and they were specifically geared for survival in a bush situation.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are a group of men, we are talking about a woman. It's logical that it's not the same for a woman as what it is for a man. If for a period of five weeks she was kept locked up in a place there would be certain sanitary requirements which are radically different from that of a man.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes we had the basic necessities for her, which we provided for her.

CHAIRPERSON: Such as?

MR PRETORIUS: Such feminine products. I know that I sent Mr Mothiba to go and purchase some of these things for her. There was toilet paper and apart from her own personal toiletries and toilet paper the other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying this was there from the very beginning?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, from the very first week.

CHAIRPERSON: From the very first week?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened during the second and the third week? What was added?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Coetzee said that we should get her some clothing. I think that in Lengele's statement it will appear. Unfortunately he isn't with us anymore today but it will appear that we were to go and purchase clothing and shoes and all sorts of items for her. Things like a comb and other such items.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that if for a period of four to five weeks those necessities were not provided to Miss Simelane it would have been inhuman?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, let me first receive some instruction from Mr Veyi because at this stage I don't have any further questions. I can just say that my instructions from my clients are that her general physical condition, because of her interrogation and the assaults during these interrogations was to a stage where when they were at the farm the last time it was very bad for a woman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey please assist us. You are just as general as some of these witnesses, when was the last time they were at the farm?

MR LAMEY: The last time they were at the farm was during the fourth or the fifth week ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: How long before they saw her the last time at Potchefstroom, a week, two weeks, how long?

MR LAMEY: I will have to receive instructions to that Chairperson, but my instructions - or the last time they were there was during the fourth or fifth week ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But we don't even know whether she was there for four or five weeks. Everybody is saying four or five weeks. We don't have any clarity as to the time period. Was it quite a while before she was removed from the farm that they left there or was it the day before?

MR LAMEY: I shall get instructions Chairperson, I don't have instructions to that at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I will tell you what the impression is that I have, and that is for the major part of that four or five weeks they were involved at the farm and if that is wrong you must put that right.

MR LAMEY: My instructions are that they came and went. They were not there continually ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But over the time with their involvement - (not interpreted) on the farm ...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: I shall these aspects - but the essence of what I want to say, what my instructions are is that up to the fourth or fifth week, the last time that they were there her general physical condition was very deteriorated because of this interrogation and assaults. Those are my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words it differs from the version of this applicant?

MR LAMEY: That is what I am putting to him Chairperson. I would like to know from the applicant if he agrees with that statement that up to the fourth or fifth week her physical condition was very bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you should react to that Mr Pretorius because the version of Mr Lamey's clients was that up to the end of the time she was continually interrogated and assaulted and she was in a very bad condition. I think you have to react on that if you want.

MR PRETORIUS: I am just as confused as Mr Lamey's clients because at some stage Mr Lamey told him that one of his clients, Selamolela came at an earlier stage, when was the earlier stage? And then he says he saw it right to the end.

MR LAMEY: Let me clear that aspect up for you. It is in paragraph 8. He says, and my instructions from him also is that at approximately the fourth or fifth week he was at the farm for the last time and he was withdrawn and he was one of the first who was withdrawn, but he was the last - the last time he visited the farm was during the fourth or fifth week.

MR PRETORIUS: I deny if the client or if the person says that by the fourth week he was there and that she was assaulted so badly. I deny that. That his statement is wrong. And from my personal inference I think they are confusing the time because myself, to be honest to you Chairperson, because I came and went, and no time was kept as to "listen you have been here one or two days", maybe they kept time but I did not, but time might have been lost somewhere, but I am not sure. During the last time this person did not look like the way they explained it. I have a problem with my last time and their last time.

CHAIRPERSON: You were there from the start to the end, right up to the moment when Miss Simelane went to Swaziland you were at the scene. You saw her. And your evidence is that right up to the last instance when you saw her she was not in the condition that Mr Lamey's clients allege she was?

MR PRETORIUS: No Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: I shall have to take instructions and we shall have to clear this time lapse, as to the time that elapsed when this person was on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we shall adjourn and then you can between now and when we start again, you can use the time to clarify those differences and then you can conclude your cross-examination. We shall adjourn until tomorrow morning at 09H30.