--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today we will be starting with the application of Messrs Mulaudzi and Ndlovu. Before we start, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Adv Leah Gcabashe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an Advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, he is also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwin Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I would like Mr Fourie please to place himself on record and Ms Mtanga.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I am J.G. Fourie from De Wet & Fourie Attorneys in Pretoria, I am representing both the applicants in this matter, Mr Mulaudzi as well as Mr Ndlovu, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: To benefit from the interpretation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices, they are available from

the Sound Technician and if you want one, you can please go and get one, thank you. Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Maybe I can just put on record at this stage, there may be a language problem, I believe that it has already been brought under your attention, these people are Tshangaan speaking, but they will try to follow the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have been told that the applicants are Tsonga or Tshangaan speaking and the interpretation is in fact in Northern Sotho. If there is any difficulty, the applicants are requested to raise it immediately, because we obviously want to get a correct translation of what they are saying.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I call then Gilbert Mulaudzi as the first applicant.

MUKOSI GILBERT MULAUDZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fourie?

EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mulaudzi, how old are you now?

MR MULAUDZI: I am 30 years old.

MR FOURIE: And during the period in which this crime was committed, this was in October 1993, you resided at Malamolela Village or street in Gazankula, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: At that stage you were still a scholar and you were 23 years of age, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: During that time, in October 1993, you were a member of the ANC at that stage, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: Since when were you resided or did you live in this area, in this Malamolela area?

MR MULAUDZI: I started to live there in 1978.

MR FOURIE: Up until your arrest?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: Can you tell us more about the area itself, was it a violent area, was there any violence or was it a peaceful area?

CHAIRPERSON: This is during 1993?

MR FOURIE: 1993, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, the area was having political violence, but not that much.

MR FOURIE: Against whom was this political violence that you are talking about, or between whom?

MR MULAUDZI: At that time the violence was between the ANC and the IFP.

MR FOURIE: Was that now in the area in which you resided?

MR MULAUDZI: In actual fact in Malamolela there was no violence at that time.

MR FOURIE: Did you know anything about any violence in any other areas between the ANC, the IFP and the Police and so forth?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, there were in Katlehong.

MR FOURIE: What kind of violence was in Katlehong that you were aware of during that stage?

MR MULAUDZI: My Commander, that is Mr Nkuna, informed me that there is killing between IFP and ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your Commander, your Commander of what? Why was he your Commander, in what respect was he your Commander?

MR MULAUDZI: Mr Nkuna was my Commander because he was giving me orders to execute.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of MK, Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR MULAUDZI: I was the member of the ANC and Mr Nkuna gave me in-house training.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Nkuna, I take it, also an ANC member?

MR MULAUDZI: He was a member of MK.

MR FOURIE: Was Mr Nkuna a respectful person in your area?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, he was respected.

MR FOURIE: At a certain stage Mr Nkuna told you to go to Mozambique, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: When was that when he told you?

MR MULAUDZI: That was in 1993, September.

MR FOURIE: Can you remember the exact date or can't you?

MR MULAUDZI: I don't remember the actual date when he came to inform me, but I know the date when I departed to Mozambique.

MR FOURIE: Did he say as to why you must go to Mozambique?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, he did.

MR FOURIE: What was the reason, what did he tell you, why must you go to Mozambique?

MR MULAUDZI: He said I should go to Mozambique to meet Joseph Khosa in Mapayi to collect guns or firearms.

MR FOURIE: Did he say what kind of firearms?

MR MULAUDZI: No, he did not tell me what kind of firearms should I go and collect.

MR FOURIE: Did he tell you as to when you must go?

MR MULAUDZI: He did not give me a particular date, but I decided my own date, which was suitable.

MR FOURIE: When was that?

MR MULAUDZI: That was on the 29th of September 1993.

MR FOURIE: This Mr Khosa that you told us about, exactly where in Mozambique did he stay or where did he reside?

MR MULAUDZI: He was staying in Mapayi Village.

MR FOURIE: How did you know as to how to get there, to his place?

MR MULAUDZI: I went there initially in January and then I went together with Mr Nkuna.

MR FOURIE: So you first of all went for the first time with Mr Nkuna in January 1993 and then afterwards now, for the application, which you applied for? This was the second time that you would have gone to Mozambique, is that so?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: What did you and Mr Nkuna on the first occasion, in January 1993, what did you go to do in Mozambique?

MR MULAUDZI: The time when I was with Mr Nkuna in January, we brought two firearms.

MR FOURIE: What kind of firearms?

MR MULAUDZI: AK47's.

MR FOURIE: And what did he do with those firearms?

MR MULAUDZI: When we arrived home, he left them to Katlehong.

MR FOURIE: Did he tell you as to what the intention was for the firearms what you must fetch in Mozambique on this occasion?

MR MULAUDZI: He told me that he was going to take them to Katlehong.

MR FOURIE: To do what with?

MR MULAUDZI: To protect the community there.

MR FOURIE: Is that now the ANC community?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: What route did you follow to get to your destination in Mozambique?

MR MULAUDZI: I crossed the border at Kruger National Park.

MR FOURIE: How far was the Kruger National Park from your Village?

MR MULAUDZI: Approximately one and a half kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulaudzi, were you then going to walk to Mozambique through the National Park, the Kruger National Park?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct, I was going on foot.

MR FOURIE: Was there any other way that you could follow, any other route except for going through the Kruger National Park?

MR MULAUDZI: There is no other route because that is the only road Mr Nkuna showed me the first time.

MR FOURIE: Did you arrive safe at your destination in Mozambique without any incidents on the way to Mozambique?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes.

MR FOURIE: When you arrived there in Mozambique, did you find Mr Khosa there?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I did.

MR FOURIE: And was there any firearms handed over to you?

MR MULAUDZI: He gave me one firearm.

MR FOURIE: What kind of firearm did he give to you?

MR MULAUDZI: An AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mulaudzi, when you walked, how long did it take you to walk across the Kruger Park?

MR MULAUDZI: I travelled for five days.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in the company of anybody?

MR MULAUDZI: I was together with a second person.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you with?

MR MULAUDZI: Morris Hlupheka Ndlovu.

CHAIRPERSON: When you walked across to get to Mr Khosa, were you armed with any firearm?

MR MULAUDZI: We were not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Fourie.

MR FOURIE: How was this other person that was with you, known to you?

MR MULAUDZI: I was staying with him in the same Village.

MR FOURIE: How did it come that he went with you?

MR MULAUDZI: He is also a member of the ANC.

MR FOURIE: Did you approach him or did Mr Khosa approach him?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean Mr Nkuna?

MR FOURIE: I apologise, yes, Mr Nkuna Mr Chairperson.

MR MULAUDZI: I requested Mr Ndlovu to accompany me.

MR FOURIE: How long did you stay in Mozambique for?

MR MULAUDZI: We stayed approximately three days.

MR FOURIE: Did you then return to the RSA again?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: Who came with you back to the RSA? Was it only the two of you or was there anybody else?

MR MULAUDZI: We came with Vincent Mhlazi.

MR FOURIE: Who was that now?

MR MULAUDZI: He is a person from Mozambique.

MR FOURIE: What was his intention, why did he come to the RSA?

MR MULAUDZI: He requested that he should return with us so that he would be able to get employment.

MR FOURIE: So when you got back to the RSA, were you only - did you only have that one firearm with you, that AK47?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: Did you follow the same route back to the RSA?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Fourie, that AK47, did it have ammunition with it?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, we had - there were some ammunitions inside and then we had separate ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR FOURIE: Do you know how many rounds of ammunition there was in that firearm?

MR MULAUDZI: It had 30 ammunition in the magazine, but all in all we had 56 rounds of ammunition.

MR FOURIE: Where did you get the rest of the ammunition?

MR MULAUDZI: We were given by Joseph Khosa in Mozambique.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I keep interrupting, when you got this firearm from Mr Khosa, did you have to pay him any money for it or did he just give it to you?

MR MULAUDZI: We did not pay, he just gave it to us free.

MR FOURIE: On your way back to the RSA, whilst you were walking you crossed the Kruger National Park again, is that so?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: And then you met game rangers and which were employed by the Kruger National Park, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: How many of them did you meet?

MR MULAUDZI: I saw two rangers, but Morris, he saw the third one.

MR FOURIE: Is Morris now the second applicant that is sitting here?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: How did it come that you met them?

MR MULAUDZI: They were near the reservoir, then one of them approached us running with, armed with an R1 rifle. Then I requested him to drop the gun on the ground, then I asked Morris to move forward.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, were you yourself in possession of the AK47 at that time?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: So only one of the rangers approached you at that stage with his R1 rifle, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: Where was the other one?

MR MULAUDZI: There was a trench where they were hiding.

MR FOURIE: How far was that from you?

MR MULAUDZI: Approximately 20 metres.

MR FOURIE: Was he armed as well, or don't you know?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, he was armed.

MR FOURIE: So after this ranger dropped his firearm, who picked it up?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I took it up.

MR FOURIE: And what did you do with it?

MR MULAUDZI: I took my AK47, I gave it to Morris and then I took the R1 rifle.

MR FOURIE: What did you do then?

MR MULAUDZI: We went together with the game ranger up to the border.

MR FOURIE: What happened to the other one, where was he now?

MR MULAUDZI: He ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mulaudzi, when you say you went with the game ranger to the border, to you mean to the boundary of the Kruger National Park, not the Mozambique border?

MR MULAUDZI: We went with the ranger from Kruger National Park to the South African border, into South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because the Kruger National Park is in fact in South Africa, if you are in the Kruger National Park, you are in South Africa, so that is why I am saying you went from where you were to the fence, the Kruger National Park fence, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: We went outside Kruger National Park to the border between South Africa, that is between the Mabiliqe Village and Kruger National Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Sorry, and how far did you have to go with the ranger to that what you call the border?

MR MULAUDZI: Approximately 400 to 500 metres.

MR FOURIE: Why did you take him with, the ranger now, why did you take him with you?

MR MULAUDZI: I was afraid that if we can leave him behind, he will go and fetch another firearm.

MR FOURIE: Then when you got to the border of this Kruger National Park, or to the end, the fence of the Kruger National Park, what did you do then?

MR MULAUDZI: I informed the ranger to go back to Kruger National Park.

MR FOURIE: And what did you do then, where did you go then?

MR MULAUDZI: We hid those firearms in the veld then we went to the township in Mabiliqe.

MR FOURIE: This veld that you are talking about, how far was this now away from you?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question.

MR FOURIE: How far was this veld that you talk about, from your home, from the place where you stayed?

MR MULAUDZI: Approximately 300 metres if I am not mistaken.

MR FOURIE: Why did you hide it there?

MR MULAUDZI: We did not want people to see those firearms.

MR FOURIE: Approximately what time of the day or night did you return to your Village?

MR MULAUDZI: It was around six o'clock in the afternoon.

MR FOURIE: Was it already dark or could you still see, was it still light, the situation, the light situation?

MR MULAUDZI: It was at dusk so we were able to see.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Mr Mulaudzi, that game ranger or any of the game rangers, did anyone get injured at all or hurt in the incident in which you got the R1 rifle?

MR MULAUDZI: No one was injured or no one was assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any shots fired at all?

MR MULAUDZI: No, we did not shoot.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairman. After you hid the firearms, where did you go then?

MR MULAUDZI: We went to the Village.

MR FOURIE: Was all three of you still together? You, the Mozambican and Morris, the person that you took?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: This Mr Nkuna who sent you to fetch the firearms there, where was he at that stage?

MR MULAUDZI: We were not able to see him on that particular day.

MR FOURIE: When was the first time that you saw him again?

MR MULAUDZI: Sorry? We did not see him when we returned from Mozambique, because we were arrested.

MR FOURIE: Was there any other possibility or any time before you were arrested, to hand the firearms over to him?

MR MULAUDZI: We did not have that opportunity.

MR FOURIE: How did it come that you were arrested?

MR MULAUDZI: I do not have full information as to why, but myself and Morris decided to go to the clinic, then on the road, the Police approached us and arrested us.

MR FOURIE: Why did you go to the clinic?

MR MULAUDZI: My feet were swollen.

MR FOURIE: Was that due to the long walk and stuff from Mozambique to your house again?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE : When did you go to the clinic, the following day, the day after you returned?

MR MULAUDZI: We went a day after our arrival, then on our way to the clinic, we were arrested.

MR FOURIE: What, how many persons knew about this mission of yours?

MR MULAUDZI: Besides Mr Nkuna, no one knew about our mission. Maybe there were people from Katlehong who knew Mr Nkuna or our mission, but around our area in Malamolela, only Nkuna knew about our mission.

MR FOURIE: What would have happened if you refused to go to Mozambique to fetch these weapons, refused to go through with this plan?

MR MULAUDZI: The way I trusted Mr Nkuna, I didn't think that anything would happen to us in executing the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position Mr Mulaudzi that Mr Nkuna asked you to go and fetch the weapon from Mr Khosa and you were quite willing to obey his request?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't have to threaten you at all to make you go to Mozambique to fetch the weapons?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR FOURIE: I am not sure if you already said, you didn't gain financially by going to Mozambique or did you?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I didn't receive any benefit.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no promise to pay you money to undertake the mission?

MR MULAUDZI: No sir.

MR FOURIE: Where is Mr Nkuna now?

MR MULAUDZI: In 1997 at the time I received a letter from the Truth Commission by Mr Black, I wanted to meet him so that we would be able to discuss about that statement, then I received a letter from home informing me that he has since died.

MR FOURIE: Can you just tell the Committee exactly as to why you did this, what was your main purpose for going to fetch these weapons and bringing them back?

MR MULAUDZI: My objective was that I was going to collect the firearms to give them to Mr Nkuna so that he would be able to help the Katlehong community to defend themselves or to protect themselves.

MR FOURIE: I have received an additional statement from the Evidence Leader today, this is actually it seems to me an application for indemnity, I have already discussed it with you, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MR FOURIE: In this statement you mentioned something about certain ...

CHAIRPERSON: Certain people being killed by game rangers to Defence Force people in Mozambique, in the Kruger Park?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I do.

MR FOURIE: Did that have any influence on your decision to go to Mozambique to fetch these weapons?

MR MULAUDZI: No sir.

MR FOURIE: Why did you put this into the statement?

MR MULAUDZI: It was the time before the Truth Commission was formed, then I was requesting indemnity. I was trying to add information about things which happened in Kruger National Park.

MR FOURIE: So was some of this information that is standing in this statement, fabricated by you for the purpose of indemnity?

MR MULAUDZI: Those things happened sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We have read the statement Mr Fourie, so I don't think he needs to repeat it in his testimony.

MR FOURIE: If the Truth Commission or rather the Amnesty Committee, grants you amnesty in this application, what - rather let's say, what benefit would you say anybody else will gain from this if you will be granted amnesty in this matter, if any?

MR MULAUDZI: What I would say now is that I wish to ask for forgiveness to the community, whatever I have done, they should forgive me. If I am brought back to the community, I will work peacefully with the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulaudzi, it is correct, I see from the papers, is it correct that you were arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced and received an effective sentence of 13 years imprisonment?

MR MULAUDZI: I am sentenced for 18 years and 11 months.

CHAIRPERSON: I see from the record, page 77 of the Bundle, the Magistrate sentenced you on a whole lot of charges to various terms of imprisonment and then it says that the charges in respect of 3, 4 and 5 and 6 will run together and that you effectively, I am quoting -

In other words that you were sentenced to a total of just short of 19 years, but the effective term of imprisonment is 13 years, that is what it says here.

MR MULAUDZI: What I know is that I have been sentenced for 18 years and 11 months because of the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition and to enter Kruger National Park without a permit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FOURIE: How many years of your sentence have you already been serving?

MR MULAUDZI: Five years and half a month, then together with the trial it is five years and eight months.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Fourie. Mr Mtanga, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I do have a few. Mr Mulaudzi, what position was held by Mr Nkuna who was your Commander in the ANC structure in your area?

MR MULAUDZI: I know Mr Nkuna as my Commander and again as a member of MK.

MS MTANGA: Were there other people who were in your Unit under his command?

MR MULAUDZI: The way I know, it was only myself and Morris.

MS MTANGA: Was Morris also trained by, or did Morris also get in-house training that you mentioned that you got from Mr Nkuna?

MR MULAUDZI: No, he did not have training.

MS MTANGA: In your indemnity application you did not mention that Mr Nkuna had ordered you to go and fetch weapons from Mozambique, why didn't you state that?

MR MULAUDZI: What happened to the indemnity application is that in prison, people who were issuing us the application form, did not explain to us as to what was needed in those forms.

MS MTANGA: The fact that you were ordered, you knew that you were supposed to justify your actions politically and your evidence today is that it was political because you had been instructed by Mr Nkuna to go and collect firearms from Mozambique, why didn't you mention that? You didn't have to be told by the Prison Authorities to do that?

MR MULAUDZI: In regard to my submission for indemnity, I was just explaining what happened before this incident. In my TRC application, that is where I tried to explain in full or in detail.

MS MTANGA: Do you know in which year did Mr Nkuna die?

MR MULAUDZI: I did not know the actual date, Morris' sister sent us a letter at the time when we requested him so that we would be able to submit our applications together, that is when we know that he has since died.

CHAIRPERSON: You learnt that he died, you got knowledge that he died in 1997?

MR MULAUDZI: I am not sure as to whether he died in 1997, but the only thing that I know that we received a letter in 1997 when we wrote a letter home so that he will be informed that we have submitted our amnesty applications, so that he should do the same. As to whether when he died, we are not sure. Even in the letter the date was not mentioned as to whether when he died.

MS MTANGA: In which area did Mr Nkuna live?

MR MULAUDZI: He was in Katlehong most of the time.

MS MTANGA: How did you meet him?

MR MULAUDZI: He came home in 1992, December, that is when we met.

MS MTANGA: So are you saying Mr Nkuna was from your area but that he spent most of his time in Katlehong?

MR MULAUDZI: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Do you have any re-examination Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mulaudzi, just to pick up on the matter of Mr Nkuna, how do you know that he was indeed an ANC member and an MK member and not just somebody who was involved in gun-running?

MR MULAUDZI: In 1992, when Mr Nkuna returned home, we met him in a meeting, that is a Youth meeting, the ANC Youth meeting. He was together with other people whom I did not know, but I believed that they were members of MK. That is when he came to me, that he requested me to train me so that I would be one of those people so that I would be of help to help the community. That is when I started to know Mr Nkuna, that he is a member of the ANC and again he is a member of the MK.

ADV GCABASHE : Was he generally known in the area as an ANC member?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, there are those who knew him well, that he was a member of the ANC and MK.

ADV GCABASHE : And have you been able to find out the circumstances of his death, how he died?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I was able to find out.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you learn about his death?

MR MULAUDZI: In the letter they explained that he was stabbed, he was in a car and he was stabbed to death.

ADV GCABASHE : What did Mr Nkuna say you should do with the firearms once you returned to your Village?

MR MULAUDZI: Mr Nkuna told us that when we, on our way from Mozambique, when we see the members of the South African Defence Force or the game rangers or the Police we should do something so that we should not be arrested.

ADV GCABASHE : Yes, I understand that, but once you got home, what did he say to you, who were you supposed to hand that weapon to? When were you supposed to hand that weapon over, you know those are the types of arrangements I am interested in.

MR MULAUDZI: He informed us that when we came back we should hand over those firearms to him.

ADV GCABASHE : And had he indicated when he might be back?

MR MULAUDZI: At the time when we left to Mozambique, he was still at home, but when we came back, we were not cock sure as to whether he was home or not.

ADV GCABASHE : When you returned, did you actually try and find him, the night you returned, or the following day before you went to the clinic?

MR MULAUDZI: When we came back on that day, we were tired and we came late, so we did not try and look for him.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mulaudzi, I want to refer you to your application for amnesty. If one looks at page 5, question 11(a), there is a question that says in essence and I won't read the whole question, but did you do this act on behalf of anybody or with the approval of an organisation, State department concerned, etc and you answered that question "no". Why did you write that in the form? Page 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the Bundle page 5, and it is question 11(a).

MR LAX: Do you understand the question?

MR MULAUDZI: May you please repeat the question.

MR LAX: The question in the form here is and I will read it in full so you get the full context -

To put it briefly, did you have approval of some structure to commit this act? You said no. Why did you say "no"?

MR MULAUDZI: What happened for me to write this way is because I did not meet any member of the ANC office in Nelspruit, then after I met those people, that is when I wrote a letter to Mr Black, together with the names and addresses of the people who had instructed me.

MR LAX: Well, later on the next question says "give details of such order", now you acted on the order of Mr Nkuna, that is your testimony so far, is that right?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Why didn't you say "yes, I acted on the orders of Mr Nkuna"? Not no?

MR MULAUDZI: May you please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Why didn't you say "yes, I acted on the orders of Mr Nkuna who sent me to go to Mozambique to go and get firearms?"

MR MULAUDZI: In my application form as I have already explained initially that I said I should firstly discuss this with officials of the ANC branch in Nelspruit so that they would give me permission to include the name and the addresses of the person who had instructed me. That is why I wrote a letter after, including the name, the identity and the name and the addresses of the person who instructed me, through Mr Black.

MR LAX: At that stage, you hadn't spoken to anyone in the ANC and you didn't want to disclose the full truth at that stage, you were only going to do that once you had spoken to the ANC? Do I understand you correctly?

MR MULAUDZI: The application forms were issued to us before we could even know that there was anything like the Truth Commission is going to come into being. I could not have included the names of the people who belonged to the ANC before I discussed with the ANC officials.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are telling us Mr Mulaudzi is that your later letter, is a correct reflection of what occurred and what is contained in this form which you see before you, is not entirely correct because you hadn't yet spoken to any ANC representative and you were loathe to implicate the ANC in your application without getting some sort of go-ahead from them before you did so? Is that the situation?

MR MULAUDZI: It is true what I wrote in the statement, but I did not clarify on particular issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Because in your application form you say and I refer to right at the bottom of page 3 and over the page to page 4 you say "I disarmed Kruger National Park game rangers to achieve the rifle that I was going to use for Self Protection Unit, even to defend the community" and then later on you say "we were on the way to fight for freedom, the rifle was going to defend the community and myself. I was going to fight our rivals". That is what you say in the form whereas here you say that you were getting the rifle for Mr Nkuna, for him to take the rifle to Katlehong?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I wrote that way.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Lax wants to know, and we want to know is, why did you write it that way which is different from what you say today?

MR MULAUDZI: What made me to write this way is that, I was writing about what Mr Nkuna had told me because I was the one who was requesting amnesty, I was not - I was the one who was asking for amnesty.

MR LAX: Sorry, are you having a problem with the translation there, because you switched it on then you switched it off, I am not quite sure if the answer is finished yet?

INTERPRETER: The answer was finished, but we are still trying to find out as to whether did we say the right thing.

MR LAX: Okay, please just clarify that because it may be quite important later.

MR MULAUDZI: What I wrote on my application forms, at the time when I was writing this, I was writing about the instructions and again as the person who was an applicant in this matter, because I disarmed the game rangers with their firearms so that I will be able to defend the community. To defend the community in that way was that I was going to give Mr Nkuna the firearm so that he would be able to give it to the community to defend itself. About the issue of fighting our enemy, our enemy was the IFP. Then again the Police and the way Mr Nkuna informed us, he said the Police were helping the members of the IFP to the township, to attack the community, that is why I wrote in that way.

MR LAX: My question remains why did you use the words "I was going to use it", not the organisation, not taking it to some other place, you were going to use that rifle, that is what you said here?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I do understand. I said so because I am the person responsible for the firearm in Mozambique, that is why I had to write it that way.

MR LAX: Are you saying that you were taking the blame for it?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I put it that way so that I would be able to take the blame.

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mulaudzi, my understanding of what you are saying is that you identified yourself fully with the ANC and with the issues that were explained to you by Mr Nkuna and in that light, you answered this application in this particular manner because you saw yourself as an extension of the problems that had been put to you by Mr Nkuna, even though these problems occurred in Katlehong not in your particular area, that is the essence of what I understood your evidence in the last five minutes to be, is that correct?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any further questions? Perhaps I can ask one. Just tell me if I am correct Mr Mulaudzi, you say that Mr Nkuna requested you to go to Mozambique and then you requested Mr Ndlovu the second applicant, did you tell Mr Ndlovu why you were going to Mozambique and that Mr Nkuna had sent you and that you were going to fetch, in other words, was he aware of the nature of the mission from the beginning?

MR MULAUDZI: Mr Ndlovu knew our mission in Mozambique.

CHAIRPERSON: You told him?

MR MULAUDZI: Yes, I informed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one last question. Why don't you mention the person from Mozambique that you brought back into the country with you, at all in your application?

MR MULAUDZI: The reason why I did not mention this Mozambican from Mozambique to South Africa is because he did not know what was happening. He just requested that we should accompany him or we should be in his company to South Africa.

ADV GCABASHE : No, no, can I just get the translation right. Did he say you should be in his company or he would like to come back with you? Just let's get that right?

MR MULAUDZI: He requested that he should be in our company.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: I've got nothing further, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mulaudzi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR FOURIE: Then I call Mr Ndlovu, the other applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR NDLOVU: No sir, I have no objection.

HLUPHEKA MORRIS NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fourie, we have heard the evidence of Mr Mulaudzi, I don't think it would be necessary for this witness to repeat all the facts which are probably common cause between them, perhaps if you can approach it on the basis that if he wishes to confirm what Mr Mulaudzi said and if he has anything to add, that he may do so, but I don't think we need go through the whole issue again.

EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I agree. Mr Ndlovu, let me just put it to you in this way, you also stay in the same area, Gazankula, Malamolela and you stay there since 1969 till 1993 when you were arrested, is that so?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct sir.

MR FOURIE: And do you confirm, you have heard the evidence of the previous applicant, do you confirm what he is saying regarding the plan and all the issues in which you were involved?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I do in regard to the statement we wrote, both of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu, were you at that time a member of the ANC?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I was a member of the ANC.

MR FOURIE: Why did you go with him on this mission?

MR NDLOVU: We were going to fetch firearms.

MR FOURIE: What was your purpose for this, for this mission? Why did you want to go and fetch firearms?

MR NDLOVU: At all times we were together, we had the same idea of opening a branch of the ANC within our locality and then when he told me about the instructions from Mr Nkuna, I was willing to help him to go to Mozambique because I was also a member of the ANC.

MR FOURIE: Were you aware of the problems and violence in Katlehong?

MR NDLOVU: At the time when Mr Nkuna returned home, I began to know that there was violence in the East Rand, but otherwise before I only learnt about those violence through TV and the newspapers and radio.

MR FOURIE: What was your main goal to achieve by going to fetch the firearms?

MR NDLOVU: It was to protect the community, we were going to hand them over to Mr Nkuna and he would take them to Katlehong to protect the community.

MR FOURIE: The community that you are talking about, to protect the community, which community are you talking about?

MR NDLOVU: That is the ANC community.

MR FOURIE: Would you have gained financially from this?

MR NDLOVU: No sir.

MR FOURIE: Did you respect Mr Nkuna?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I was respecting him.

MR FOURIE: Were you aware of the fact that he was an MK member as well?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I knew.

MR FOURIE: Do you regret what you did?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I regret because I went to Mozambique to fetch firearms and because one gun can kill many people.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chair.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions? Mr Lax?

MR LAX: No Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndlovu, that is your testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, do you have any submissions or do you have any further witnesses to call?

MR FOURIE: I've got no further witnesses to call, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No further evidence Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that then concludes the evidence in this matter, do you have any submissions, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Although these two applicants were raised in a peaceful area, as they testified they learnt that there was a conflict between the ANC, the IFP and the Police and they were of the opinion that the Police supported the IFP in the Katlehong area and they were informed by Mr Nkuna that they can contribute to this by getting the firearms and to assist the ANC in their struggle against the IFP and the Police.

As they already said they became members of the ANC, they were members and they tried to assist the ANC in the struggle against apartheid and against the killing of all the people, the people from the ANC which were killed during that time. They also testified that they were commanded or ordered by a respected member of the community to do this and as they respected this man, that is the reason as to why they followed his order and completed the mission.

He was also told that by doing this, he would especially, this would especially benefit the people, the black people of his community and the ANC, by providing the weapons to them. It is clear from the facts that they had a political motive by supplying weapons to the ANC for the struggle against apartheid and the context in which this took place, it is clear that he was raised and the whole conflict between the ANC and IFP had a big influence on him doing this. He did this out of a political perspective.

He acknowledged the fact and he is aware that it was illegal and he regrets for what he did, both of them. It is clear that this offence was as I already said primarily directed at a political opponent and they both testified that they did not gain financially from this. This offence was committed before the election and it was their main goal to gain or to do this for the struggle towards a democratic society. My submission is that their act falls within the criteria of the Act and I therefore request the Committee to grant them both amnesty. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Fourie, any submissions Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No submissions from me, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Then that concludes the hearing, we will reserve our decision and hope that it will be handed down in the near future. Thank you very much. Ms Mtanga, we have one more matter on the roll, I think this would probably be an opportune time to take an adjournment now, perhaps have a delayed tea and then if we could commence with the other application as soon as possible please. You can let us know what the situation is, whether all the people are available and then we can start. Thank you. We will take an adjournment now, thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody. We are now going to hear the final hearing that has been set down, namely that of Messrs Chikane, Seloane and Maphetho. Before we start, I know some of you were here this morning when I introduced the panel, but for those who weren't, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Adv Gcabashe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an Advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwin Miller, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I would like the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Brian Koopedi, I am an Attorney in Pretoria, I am appearing on behalf of all three applicants, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.

MR MAJUJA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Thabo Majuja and I am appearing on behalf of the victim's family, the Makhudu family. As it pleases the Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell your surname please?

MR MAJUJA: It is Majuja.

MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Those people who haven't got these devices, the proceedings are simultaneously translated and if you want to benefit from the translation, please get one of these devices from the Sound Technician at the side of the hall. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, before I proceed, I would request that the applicants that appear before you, appear in another order as opposed to the order that is here.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly we have no problem with that.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. We will first start with Mr Akila Maphetho and I will ask that he be sworn in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maphetho, do you have any objection to taking the oath or would you prefer to make an affirmation?

MR MAPHETHO: I have no objection.

AKILA MANTSHANE MAPHETHO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Maphetho, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and that this application revolves around two incidents?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that these two incidents referred to the attempted murder on one George Mathebula which may have occurred around the 13th of October 1985?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: And the other application relates to one Zenzile Makhudu, which incident occurred around the 22nd of January 1986?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, at this times, were you a member of the ANC?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: In particular, were you a member of its armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Since when did you become a member of the ANC?

MR MAPHETHO: I became a member of the ANC in 1983, as from 1983.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you receive any military training from the ANC?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you receive this training?

MR MAPHETHO: My first training was in Botswana, I don't remember the year, but it was in Botswana.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you have any operations that you were involved in inside the country?

MR MAPHETHO: Other than the two that we have mentioned, there were no other operations.

MR KOOPEDI: When these two incidents occurred, were you a member of a Unit or a cell?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: And this was an MK cell, correct?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct, it was an MK cell.

MR KOOPEDI: Did it have a name?

MR MAPHETHO: It was called Unit 1.

MR KOOPEDI: Who were the members of this Unit?

MR MAPHETHO: It was Stanza Bopape, Michael Seloane and myself.

MR KOOPEDI: Where was this Unit operative?

MR MAPHETHO: It was in Mamelodi.

MR KOOPEDI: That is in Pretoria, right?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Commander of that Unit?

MR MAPHETHO: The Commander was Stanza Bopape, the late Stanza Bopape.

MR KOOPEDI: Who were the other members of this Unit?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Koopedi, if you put the headphones on, you will be able to hear the Interpreter, because they are asking you to repeat the question please.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was who were the other members of the Unit, you have mentioned yourself and the second applicant in this matter, namely Michael Seloane. Was there anybody else besides the three of you who were members of Unit 1?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, there were other members but they were just appendages to the Unit and others were Commanders of PWV, the other one was the Odirele Maponya. That was the Overall Commander of the Unit.

MR KOOPEDI: For clarity sake, you said Stanza Bopape was the Commander of your Unit, is that correct?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: What was Odirele, what - was he commanding your Unit also?

MR MAPHETHO: Odirele Maponya was the Overall Commander of the PWV.

MR KOOPEDI: Do I understand you then to say that there would have been other Units in the area and he would be responsible for those Units, but for your Unit, Stanza would have been the Commander?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, with my knowledge Odirele is the Overall Commander of the PWV area, but in our Unit, it was under the direct command of Stanza Bopape.

MR KOOPEDI: For the record sake, is it correct that both Mr Stanza Bopape and Odirele Maponya are no more with us today, they are no more alive?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, let's go to the attack on Mr Mathebula, George. Who gave the order for this attack?

MR MAPHETHO: That is Stanza Bopape.

MR KOOPEDI: Did he give any reasons for the order?

MR MAPHETHO: At that time, there was a campaign that the Police should be isolated, that was the part of the strategy that the Police should be isolated, then it happened that George was mentioned among those people who were notorious within the township, that is why he was one of the targets.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you explain what you mean by notorious?

MR MAPHETHO: When I say notorious, it is that in many instances we used to have meetings and then the Police used to harass people and shoot people and assault people, then it happened that George's name was mentioned as one of those notorious Policemen who used to attack the community.

MR KOOPEDI: So, he then became a target?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes. Though he was not alone. He was not isolated alone as a target, he was among the targets.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now, who took part in the attack?

MR MAPHETHO: That is Michael Seloane and myself.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee how the attack was executed?

MR MAPHETHO: What happened firstly, we went there and then we were able to locate his house, then we reconnoitred the yard and then we planned how we were going to attack the house. Then we planned again after the attack, how were we going to retreat. Then we were able to see how we would be able to succeed in that mission, then we went there to attack that particular house.

MR KOOPEDI: When you went there, was it the two of you?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, the two of us.

MR KOOPEDI: What happened, what did you do when you reached his house?

MR MAPHETHO: When we arrived, we threw handgrenades in the house. After that, we retreated.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give an indication of how many handgrenades were thrown into the house?

MR MAPHETHO: Two handgrenades

CHAIRPERSON: Did you each throw one?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say into the house, did you throw it through a closed window, an open window, through an open door, what do you mean you threw it into the house? Which part of the house?

MR MAPHETHO: The windows were closed and we threw two rooms, we stoned the house with bricks and then thereafter, we threw the handgrenades.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. After throwing the handgrenades, what did you do?

MR MAPHETHO: Then we withdrew and we went back.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you see if anyone was injured?

MR MAPHETHO: We realised the following day that there were people who were injured.

MR KOOPEDI: After this attack, did you make a report to anyone?

MR MAPHETHO: After the attack, we reported.

MR KOOPEDI: To whom did you report?

MR MAPHETHO: We reported to Stanza Bopape.

MR KOOPEDI: Let's move to the second incident. When Mr Zenzile Makhudu was killed. Is it correct that this incident could have happened around the 22nd of January 1986?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Who gave the order that this person must be attacked?

MR MAPHETHO: That is the late Odirele Maponya.

MR KOOPEDI: If your Commander was Stanza, why would you then receive an order from someone higher up?

MR MAPHETHO: It happened that Stanza Bopape at that time was detained, then I was working under the direct command of Mensday, that is Odirele Maponya.

MR KOOPEDI: So, does it mean that you replaced Stanza as a Commander of Unit 1 or simply that you just started receiving commands from the late Mensday?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I took the position of Stanza Bopape as the Commander of Unit 1.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Who took part in this attack?

MR MAPHETHO: That is Lazarus Chikane and myself.

MR KOOPEDI: Lazarus Chikane is one of your co-applicants, is that correct?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, you have told this Honourable Committee about the members of your Unit, could you tell this Honourable Committee how Lazarus Chikane was related to your Unit?

MR MAPHETHO: In that same year, the order came from the ANC that the Units which were inside the country, should expand, therefore we had to recruit more people so as to enhance the Units within the country. That is why I recruited Lazarus. Then we were able to continue with the operation.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you tell this Committee what happened on the day of the attack?

MR MAPHETHO: On the day of the attack, I went to the particular house. I reconnoitred the house then I saw his car entering, then I was convinced that he was in the house. Then I returned back, I met Lazarus and thereafter we went to his house and attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Koopedi, sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that Mr Mathebula George was a target because his name was mentioned in meetings and it was part of this programme to isolate the Police. What was the reason for Zenzile Makhudu to become a target?

MR MAPHETHO: The reasons are the same because Zenzile was one of those people who were harassing the people, then he was telling people openly that Mamelodi Youth Organisation and UDF, as long as he is still present or still alive, they are going to be extinct. That made him to be an enemy of the community.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. When the attack occurred, only two people were present, is that correct? Yourself and Lazarus?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: What happened exactly, please tell this Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was could you please tell the Committee what happened in the attack, describe the attack.

MR MAPHETHO: During the attack as I have already mentioned that we threw two grenades in two bedrooms. After we threw those handgrenades, then we withdrew. The following day when we listened to the news, we learnt that Zenzile together with his wife were injured, and then later we learnt that Zenzile had died.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you, when you executed these attacks, I am referring to the two of them, did you consider that there might be other people in their company?

MR MAPHETHO: According to the information we had at the time, we knew that George was usually alone and then we knew that Zenzile also was alone at all times, unfortunately it happened that the people who were there, were caught in the cross-fire. That is how I can put it, but it is not our intention or the intention of the ANC or of MK to kill innocent people.

MR KOOPEDI: If there were, if there were people as it appears from the documents before us that there were people in their presence, would you like your application to encompass whatever harm that could have befallen those people?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct, I want to include those people who were caught in the cross-fire. It was not our intention or the intention of the ANC or of MK to injure or to attack innocent people, but it was the intention of the ANC and MK to attack the Police. It happened unfortunately during a war situation, it happens that there would be people who are not part of the warring factions who would be caught in the cross-fire and they would be injured or killed. That is one of the things which made me to come forward and apply for amnesty before this Commission.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now for these two operations, did you receive any personal gain, were you paid?

MR MAPHETHO: I did not receive any personal benefit.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you think that you have fully disclosed all the material facts, relevant facts, in these two applications before this Honourable Committee?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: From your evidence, could you say that these two attacks were politically motivated?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: In your mind, do you think that any political objective was achieved by these two incidents?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief of this applicant, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have got several questions to ask the applicant. Could you tell us when did this incident happen, the attack of Mr Zenzile Makhudu's house?

MR MAPHETHO: Though I am not able to remember the actual date, but it happened in 1985 towards the end. MR MAJUJA: But we have the evidence from the inquest that

was held with regard to this killing, that this person's death was in 1986.

MR MAPHETHO: Are you talking about Zenzile?

MR MAJUJA: Yes.

MR MAPHETHO: As I have stated that I am not able to remember the actual date, but I accept that I am responsible for the death of Zenzile.

CHAIRPERSON: I think when Mr Koopedi was asking you questions at the start of this incident, he asked you whether or not the incident occurred on the 2nd of January 1986 and you said yes?

MR MAPHETHO: I said yes, because it is stated in the documents, but as I say that I am not able to remember the actual date.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned, it happened late 1985 or early 1986, somewhere around there?

MR MAPHETHO: Towards the end of 1985, that is when we executed the first operation and then the January one, is the one, is the operation towards Zenzile.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think anything really material turns on the actual precise date.

MR MAJUJA: Actually Chairperson, I think I am satisfied with the way he has responded.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAJUJA: You later told this hearing that there was an order from the ANC that your cells should expand and as I understand from the evidence that you have already given, you were like three in your Unit, does the word expand mean that you had to recruit only one member?

MR MAPHETHO: No, it doesn't explain that. When I mean to expand, it says whoever, any member who is in the Unit, should go and recruit people who would be part of that Unit. If he found those people, he must not come and tell members of other Units, so that there should be a mood of secrecy.

MR MAJUJA: Can you tell us at what time did you want to check Mr Makhudu's house?

MR MAPHETHO: I am not able to remember the dates, but I did do the reconnoitring the same day, but I don't remember the same dates.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day, were you there in the morning, early morning, lunch time, the evening, night time?

MR MAPHETHO: I did reconnoitring in the morning and again during the day and in the afternoon.

MR MAJUJA: Can you tell us, okay, at night, at what time, that is what I am concerned with?

MR MAPHETHO: I am not able to remember the actual time.

MR MAJUJA: At the time when you saw Zenzile's car getting into his yard, at what time was it?

MR MAPHETHO: I don't remember what time was it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it daylight or dusk?

MR MAPHETHO: It was at night.

MR MAJUJA: You have told this Commission that Zenzile was one of the people who were harassing the people of Mamelodi, is that correct?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAJUJA: And you said that he openly said that he was going to deal with the UDF and other organisations in the community?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAJUJA: When did he make those statements?

MR MAPHETHO: I would not actually say when, but he was at Maseko's shopping centre, he was telling people loudly. Then on that day I was present, I heard him saying so.

MR MAJUJA: Okay, in your application for amnesty, if you can check on page 4, what your justification for regarding such acts as political objective.

MR LAX: Mr Majuja, is that page 18 of the Bundle?

MR MAJUJA: Yes, Mr Chairperson. In the statement you are saying that the two Policemen were well known among the Mamelodi community as killers of our people, but now you are saying that they were harassing. What is the difference between harassment and killing?

MR MAPHETHO: You can harass a person by beating a person, you can harass the people by throwing the teargas on them and you can harass them by killing them. When you assault people and when you kill them, those who are around those, are harassed.

MR MAJUJA: ... evidence that Zenzile Makhudu had killed some of the community members?

MR MAPHETHO: I don't have evidence to that regard as to whether, whom did he kill, but I am saying the Police who were in Mamelodi, there were those who were killed by them.

MR MAJUJA: In your statement you are saying the two Policemen, you are talking about George and Zenzile, is that not correct?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAJUJA: You are saying that they were known amongst the Mamelodi community as killers, why did you write that if you are not in agreement with that?

MR MAPHETHO: I said they were known as killers. That is what I am saying, that the Police were killing people, then it may happen that George and Zenzile were known as killers, because even in the meetings, they would sing songs with them and then in the meetings the people requested that these people should be killed. According to Mamelodi residents, in this particular case, I quote these two people, because I am applying amnesty for the attacks. Those are some of the people who were regarded as killers by Mamelodi residents.

MR MAJUJA: There is a sentence where you say that as a result the Mamelodi Committee, I want to know what is that Committee that you are talking about here, the Mamelodi Committee that took the decision that these people should be removed from society?

MR MAPHETHO: It was not a formal meeting, but during the rallies and during the meetings when people sing slogans and when they lodge complaints, they would talk about people who were harassing them as people who were playing a leading role in the harassments and among the names mentioned, was Zenzile and George and others.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maphetho, what you are being asked is, you mentioned here just to quote from here -

Now, was there such a thing as a Mamelodi Committee and he is asking you about this Committee, what was this Mamelodi Committee because a Committee is normally an identifiable group of persons who regularly meet in order to pursue a particular object.

MR MAPHETHO: At that time, we used to have a forum and during the meetings of this forum, when we discuss about Mamelodi problems, in those forums the comment would be made that there are people who are troublesome and MK is not happy about Zenzile and Sinke and George but MK is not doing anything in that regard. Those are the various Committees which used to raise problems as to whether why is MK not solving the community's problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Could any citizen of Mamelodi attend these meetings or was it restricted to certain people only who could attend those meetings?

MR MAPHETHO: In various sections, there were Committees and then they would send delegations to the General Committee within Mamelodi.

MR MAJUJA: Was this an order from the Mamelodi Committee?

MR MAPHETHO: As I have stated that the people I am talking about as members of this Committee, it was their complaints that these people should be removed from Mamelodi because they were troublesome and I as a member of the ANC, and then as a member of MK, I was fighting on behalf of the people, so the complaints of the people are my complaints, and as a member of MK, I had to defend or protect the community against any attacker, and especially the person who was attacking the people in defence of the apartheid system.

MR MAJUJA: Do you know the Unit that Mr Makhudu was working for while he was a Policeman?

MR MAPHETHO: What I knew is that he was a member of the Special Branch, as to whether where, I did not have full details. But he was always going all out and telling people that he will deal thoroughly with UDF and Youth Organisations in Mamelodi.

MR MAJUJA: So will I be correct if I say that you were not sure that he was in the CID or a Special Branch member?

MR MAPHETHO: As I have already stated that I did not know as to whether he was a CID or a member of the Special Branch. But what made him to be among the target, is his comments before the people. As I have stated that it was a campaign that the Police should be isolated. In short it meant that each and every Policeman, as long as he defends apartheid, became a target. Isolation can mean many things, you can isolate them in the real sense of isolating them, it may be isolation in the sense that they should be removed from society be attacking them and killing them.

MR MAJUJA: Let's go back to the place where this whole incident took place. You said that you threw in two handgrenades into the house or one into each room?

CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about the Makhudu incident?

MR MAJUJA: Yes, the Makhudu incident. Is that correct?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed Mr Majuja, can I just get some information, these handgrenades, could you describe what they were, their potency, what type of grenades they were?

MR MAPHETHO: The handgrenades are those we call a defensive and offensive handgrenades and both of them have high potency. But defensive grenades have more power because it goes into splinters when it blasts and even offensive handgrenades has power also.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you use in that particular attack, were you using defensive grenades or offensive?

MR MAPHETHO: We used both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: One of each?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAJUJA: Who was handling which one, who was handling the offensive and who was handling the defensive one?

MR MAPHETHO: I had a defensive handgrenade and my colleague had an offensive handgrenade.

MR MAJUJA: And this defensive one, where was it thrown?

MR MAPHETHO: In the bedroom where the deceased was killed.

MR MAJUJA: Was the window closed or open at that time when you threw this handgrenade in?

MR MAPHETHO: The window was closed.

MR MAJUJA: So how did you manage to throw the handgrenade into the house?

MR MAPHETHO: I had a brick, I broke the window panes and then thereafter I threw the handgrenade inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there curtains across the window?

MR MAPHETHO: I don't remember about curtains because it was at night, what I know is that I broke the window and then I threw the handgrenade.

CHAIRPERSON: From what range Mr Maphetho, more or less?

MR MAPHETHO: I didn't throw the brick, I used it to break the window.

MR MAJUJA: How did you throw it?

MR MAPHETHO: From there I threw the handgrenade.

MR MAJUJA: Were you like placing it or throwing it inside?

MR MAPHETHO: I threw it inside.

MR MAJUJA: I don't understand, you threw it or you just placed it, that is what I want to know?

MR MAPHETHO: I said I threw it.

MR MAJUJA: With force or minimal force?

MR MAPHETHO: There was no need to throw it with force because I was near the window.

MR MAJUJA: How did you know that there were two people inside the house?

MR MAPHETHO: I did not know that there were two people inside the house.

MR MAJUJA: Did you report this incident immediately?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I did.

MR MAJUJA: Whom did you report it to?

MR MAPHETHO: I reported to Mainstay, that is Odirele Maponya.

MR MAJUJA: Can you tell us approximately how long was the whole operation?

MR MAPHETHO: It didn't take a long time, what happened is that we arrived there, I broke the window and then we threw the handgrenades, and then we withdrew.

MR MAJUJA: You know, if you can look at the Bundle there, there is a statement by, I think it is page 32, no page 26 Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a statement by Warrant Officer Rossouw Mashabane, is that right?

MR MAJUJA: There is something very interesting there, if you look at paragraph 1, the Officer talks about having been told about this incident by a certain Le Roux, Lieutenant Le Roux, how could Lieutenant Le Roux have known about this incident if you didn't report it?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, just for the record Mr Maphetho, this paragraph 1 says, this is a statement by Warrant Officer Mashabane, he says -

The question was, how would Lieutenant Le Roux have known about the explosion if you had not reported it to the Police?

MR MAPHETHO: I don't know how he knew, but when we executed our operations, we usually reported to our Commanders, not the Police.

MR MAJUJA: The F1 handgrenade, the defensive one, when it explodes, you explained there is some splinters from that, is that correct?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Shrapnel I think is the word, yes.

MR MAJUJA: Shrapnels?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes.

MR MAJUJA: So as you were an active member of MK, so I think maybe you might be able to help me, if maybe you are two in the room and with this kind of a handgrenade being thrown at us, would it not injure all of us?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, it will.

MR MAJUJA: And you say that you heard the following day that there were two people in the house?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR MAJUJA: And the other one was deceased?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MR MAJUJA: Would you be able maybe to guide as us to why is it like that?

MR MAPHETHO: How?

MR MAJUJA: I just want to, maybe you can help me, you know, because that is what the family wants to know.

CHAIRPERSON: What the witness said was that they threw the two grenades in and then they later learnt that two people had been injured and then they again later learnt, that one of them Zenzile, died. That is what he says, so we don't know whether they were in the same room or different rooms or whether - he just heard that two people were injured. I don't think the witness said that there were only two people in the house, he said he heard that there were two injured.

MR MAJUJA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Furthermore, the handgrenade, the offensive handgrenade, in which room was it thrown into?

MR MAPHETHO: It was thrown in the front bedroom.

MR MAJUJA: So it exploded inside that room?

MR MAPHETHO: What I know is that the offensive one exploded before the defensive one.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maphetho, when you threw these grenades in, did they immediately blow up or did they roll on the floor and then after a while, after a time span, blow or did they blow on contact with hitting the ground or whatever they hit inside the bedroom?

MR MAPHETHO: It does not explode immediately, but it doesn't take a long time.

MR MAJUJA: But you know I don't know whether your Counsel has got hold of the inquest report that was made with regard to this killing. If you look at, did you have it in your possession?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I have it.

MR MAJUJA: It clearly shows that the offensive handgrenade exploded next to the wall, I don't know what you call it, a (indistinct) in English?

CHAIRPERSON: Next to the?

ADV GCABASHE : Concrete fence, next to the concrete fence.

CHAIRPERSON: Outside?

MR MAJUJA: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Majuja, you have some photographs there that we don't have, I am afraid.

MR MAJUJA: If it pleases this Committee, I don't have a problem of handing them in because it is the intention of the victim's family to submit them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. What you are putting to the witness is that the offensive grenade blew outside the house, not inside the house?

MR MAJUJA: Not inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Next to the concrete wall which goes around the edge of the garden? What do you say to that Mr Maphetho?

MR MAPHETHO: I said if you are in an operation, after you have done an operation, there is no time to observe as to whether your target was hit or not. What I said is we threw two handgrenades.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not disputing the fact that one of them might have exploded in the garden next to the wall?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I don't dispute that and again, I don't agree with it.

CHAIRPERSON: The one that you threw, you yourself personally, you say you threw it into, because you were close, next to the window and you broke the window with a brick and you threw it into the room so the one that landed in the garden from what you tell us, would obviously not have been the one that you were throwing?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is not the one I threw.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Lazarus throw his grenade?

MR MAPHETHO: I did not see him because he was outside, I was inside. He threw. I heard by the sound that he threw his handgrenade, but I didn't see where.

MR MAJUJA: But you as a Commander of the Unit, will I be correct if I say that you were the one who came with the order to eliminate Zenzile?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, with respect, this witness has testified that he received orders from Odirele.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he received orders from Mr Maponya.

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson ...

CHAIRPERSON: And that he was the leader of the actual attack operation on the ground.

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, if it was possible for the late Mr Bopape to issue an order ...

CHAIRPERSON: Maponya. Was it Maponya? I think Bopape was the first incident on George.

MR MAJUJA: Yes, actually I am just trying to compare the two incidents, Your Worship, Mr Chairperson. Like, if it was possible for Mr Bopape to issue a command to go and eliminate somebody, why were you not in the position to do so because you were the Commander of that particular Unit, Unit 1?

MR MAPHETHO: I don't understand your question.

MR MAJUJA: Mr Bopape issued a command ...

CHAIRPERSON: What he said Mr Majuja is, and correct me Mr Maphetho if I am wrong, he said that they had a Unit 1, initially it had the three members he mentioned, including Mr Bopape and himself and the other applicant.

MR KOOPEDI: Seloane Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And of that Unit, Mr Bopape was the Commander and then when it came to the Zenzile, the Makhudu operation, Mr Bopape was not available, he was in detention, that is why the order came from Mr Maponya.

MR MAJUJA: But Mr Chairperson, what I understand is that the applicant has said that he replaced Bopape, meaning that he was the Commander of that Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's put it to him. Did you become the Commander of Unit 1 in the absence of Mr Bopape?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I said so because I was, at that time I was working with Odirele.

CHAIRPERSON: Right now, the question put by Mr Majuja is in that event, you said that when Mr Bopape was the Commander, he could make the decision himself, he gave the order himself as in the Mathebula incident, now he wants to know seeing that you were the Commander standing as it were, in the shoes of Mr Bopape, why did you have to receive orders from Mr Maponya, why didn't you make the order yourself, is that the thrust of your question Mr Majuja?

MR MAJUJA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words why didn't Mr Maponya also order the Mathebula incident?

MR MAPHETHO: I would explain it this way. In the Unit, the Commander is a Commander of that particular Unit and that Unit, there would be another Commander who is above him. Stanza was receiving orders from Maponya and then Bopape would transfer those commands to the Unit. If the Commander dies of a particular Unit or he is not present at that particular time, there would be somebody who would be in command at that particular Unit and then that particular person would receive commands from a higher Commander. There will be no Commander who acts independently. If Stanza was present during the Zenzile attack, the order would come from Stanza Bopape and then Stanza Bopape could have received the order from Odirele Maponya.

MR MAJUJA: Thank you for that answer. You said that, you told this Committee that you were sorry about the whole incident. Is that correct?

MR MAPHETHO: Yes, because I have stated that there were people who were attacked and they were not members of the Security Forces, it happened that they were caught in a cross-fire.

MR MAJUJA: What made you actually to come to this Committee to ask for amnesty?

MR MAPHETHO: The reason is that apartheid has been removed and then we have Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I wanted to be part of that Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that people should disclose about the past, the conflict of the past and that we will be able to build the new South Africa together, that we should forgive one another and start building the new nation.

MR MAJUJA: Besides your Unit, who knew about this incident?

MR MAPHETHO: We are talking about two incidents, which one are you referring to?

MR MAJUJA: The Makhudu incident?

MR MAPHETHO: No one knew about this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Maponya would have known about it and then afterwards it would have become well known because it was in the newspapers?

MR MAPHETHO: (No translation)

MR MAJUJA: So obviously because you were never arrested and there are no pending charges against you, why did you have to disclose it? I just want to know your motive for why? I am not satisfied with the answer that you gave me, that you ...

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, with respect, this witness has in evidence in chief explained why he came before this Committee. A few minutes ago the same question was put to him as to why he came before this Committee, he gave a very clear explanation why he came here and I feel this question is unfair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Majuja, I can tell you from experience in these matters that many, many applicants have come

forward and disclosed incidents that they have been involved in in respect of which they have never been arrested or charged or even suspected of having been committed and that they also have said that they have done it in the spirit of reconciliation and the building of a new nation.

MR MAJUJA: Thank you Chairperson. I don't have further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majuja. Do you have any questions, Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, about two questions. Mr Maphetho, in the statement made by Mr Mathebula he stated there that he was actually surprised as to why he was attacked by your Unit because he was only in charge of charge office duties, he was only at the charge office of the Police. Were you aware, were you personally aware of what activities would have made Mr Makhudu a target for your Unit?

MR MAPHETHO: We don't know as to whether who works in the charge office or who works in the field, but what we know is that all Police at that particular time, as I stated, is that they were regarded as enemies of the people because they were supporting apartheid. As I stated, is that this two people which I

have attacked, they happened to be among the Police according to the community, who were regarded as their enemy.

MS MTANGA: The attack on Mr Mathebula took place on the 13th of October 1985, did you carry out any reconnaissance on that day, that is prior to the attack?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: What time was this, can you remember, what time of the day was it?

MR MAPHETHO: My reconnaissance were done during the day and during the night.

MS MTANGA: In the affidavit of Mr Mathebula he states that he was at home with his ex-wife and his mother. My concern is if you had done reconnaissance and your intention was not to injure innocent people, his ex-wife and the mother were innocent people and if you had done reconnaissance, you would have known that there were these people in the house? What do you say to this?

MR MAPHETHO: My response is that when you are sent to do investigations and you bring the information gathered, you would not rule out the possibilities that at a particular time, it may not be complete, that is why even in a war situation, people who are injured ordinarily, are people who are not involved in that particular war. It was not out intention to kill his ex-wife or his mother or anyone who is not involved in the Police activities.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you Chair. Mr Maphetho, just explain to me again with regards Mr Makhudu's house, you arrived there with Mr Chikane, yes?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE : You were the first one to act, you broke the window and threw the handgrenade into the bedroom?

MR MAPHETHO: If I remember well, I was not the first one to act. Maybe our attack was simultaneous, but I don't remember quite well as to whether who attacked first, but what I know is that I threw my handgrenade where he was sleeping.

ADV GCABASHE : You see, the reason I ask is because of the issue of the concrete fence, that one of the handgrenades landed near the concrete fence, all right, and you said in your evidence that Lazarus was outside and you were inside, all right?

MR MAPHETHO: Let me explain this way.

ADV GCABASHE : Okay. MR MAPHETHO: When you talk about George, you should talk about George and then when you address about Zenzile, you must mention Zenzile because I only know of the surnames now because I didn't know their surnames, I only know them as George and Zenzile. When you put a question sometimes I become confused as to whether which incident you are talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about the Zenzile incident in this case, the Zenzile incident, the second one.

MR MAPHETHO: During the Zenzile attack, Lazarus threw the handgrenade first and then I threw my handgrenade second.

ADV GCABASHE : That is exactly where I need a bit of clarity, you said that Lazarus was outside and you were inside, that is I assume in relation to the concrete fence - hold on, hold on, don't rush, let's do this slowly, otherwise I am going to miss it completely - he was outside the yard and you were inside the yard, you had the concrete fence between you, yes?

MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE : Now explain to me from that point, you threw your handgrenade first and then he threw his, is that the order?

MR MAPHETHO: I said he threw his handgrenade first.

ADV GCABASHE : Okay, his handgrenade landed up next to the concrete fence on the basis of what Mr Majuja put to you, do you remember this, because you must have been inside the yard at that point?

MR MAPHETHO: As I have already stated that after the operation, you do not have time to make some observations as to whether, where did you hit. After the operations you withdraw immediately.

INTERPRETER: I don't think he did understand your questions.

CHAIRPERSON: While we wait, when the handgrenades were thrown, were the lights out, were the people inside apparently asleep or were the lights still on and people apparently still awake?

MR MAPHETHO: The lights were off.

MR LAX: Can I just ask, in that bundle of papers, is there a plan of the place to show where the various explosions were, with a map of the wall and so on, so that we can get a picture.

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, I can submit that if you want to see that, I don't have a problem with that.

MR LAX: Because that would help explain, that would help the witness to orientate himself as to where he was and where the other person was and so on.

ADV GCABASHE : Anyway, I must be honest, I am still not clear. Maybe Mr Koopedi will be able to assist, he might understand my difficulty because as I understand it, if you were inside the yard and Mr Chikane threw his grenade after you had thrown yours, or before, I beg your pardon, before, you would have been injured in that explosion, you would have noticed, you would have seen that explosion, but maybe you need to explain the sequence of events just a little better, just to assist us understand the timing of the devices, why you were confident that even if he threw his first and it landed outside, it wouldn't explode first. You know, maybe that is the area that is a bit grey and that I certainly don't quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And also whether the explosions both took place at the same side of the house.

MR KOOPEDI: If I may come to your assistance, excuse me, I seem to agree with the suggestion by Honourable Committee member, Mr Lax, that if we had a picture or a map of the place, it would be easy to deal with the question, because from what I understood from the evidence, is that he went inside and when he was inside, the other one was left outside and he went to the bedroom window, although he did not specify which bedroom window, but it could have been any, which means in my mind, it could have been a bedroom window behind the house perhaps or not on the same side of the wall, because I am not sure on which side was Mr Maphetho.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can ask Mr Maphetho, Mr Maphetho, we know that two explosions went off and we know that the handgrenade that you threw, you know landed inside the house because you were standing next to the window, in relation to where you were standing at that window when you threw in that grenade, do you know where about the other explosion took place? We know it was outside next to the wall, but where was it, was it behind you, was it on the same side of the house, the other side of the house? If you don't know, just say so.

MR MAPHETHO: Let me explain it this way, for the first handgrenade to explode, it was not an accident, it was a plan because I instructed him that he should throw his one, his first. Then after his one exploded, I would throw my handgrenade and then at the point where I was, his handgrenade would not affect me in relation to where I was standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would it not affect you?

MR MAPHETHO: The handgrenade which he threw, it affects you with the cartridges. There is a wall and then there is, if you throw it in front, then being at the back, there will be no way which it will affect me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it wasn't on the same side of the house where you were standing?

MR MAPHETHO: He was outside the yard, but I was at the back, next to the window and then when he threw his handgrenade, it would not affect me, and even if that person is behind the house, that handgrenade would not affect that particular person.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in, we have some photocopies of the photographs of the house and I have asked the Investigator to make copies of them, I think they might assist the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any other questions?

ADV GCABASHE : Yes, one other aspect. You spoke of the community wanting these people and I understand that you meant Policemen, to be removed from the Mamelodi community and in your application you speak about "remove from society", what was the intention here, or what did the Mamelodi community say? Was it removal from society as eliminate, kill or removal from that particular community so that they can move on and go and live somewhere else where they would not bother the Mamelodi community, or was it both, can you explain that to me?

MR MAPHETHO: When the Mamelodi, as soldiers we regarded ourselves as the people's army. If the people were saying that these people should be removed from society, to our standing it meant that they should be attacked.

ADV GCABASHE : That is precisely my question, was the issue that they should be removed from society or that they should be removed from the Mamelodi community?

MR MAPHETHO: To put it straight, it meant that they should be killed.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at this stage we can say that it concludes your testimony. Sorry, I forgot to ask Mr Koopedi, questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR KOOPEDI: You were correct Chairperson, that should conclude his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have any questions arising out of questions put?

MR KOOPEDI: I have no questions save to perhaps mention something which may have missed your attention in that particularly around the question of where was he standing. I seem to have heard him say in his evidence that when he heard that, rather he said "I knew that he (referring to lazarus) had thrown the handgrenade because I heard", this in my mind tells me that he did not see it, he was not on the same side and that goes on to explain why he would not have been injured. I am just trying to go to the difficulty that Adv Gcabashe had earlier on, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Majuja, do you have any questions arising out of questions that were put by the panel?

MR MAJUJA: At this time I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions arising?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We have arranged for lunch to be at half past one, so we have quarter of an hour, I think let's, if we could commence with the evidence of the next applicant and then we will break at half past one.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters request (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: The Interpreters, okay, I have received another request from the Interpreters, well, perhaps then we will

adjourn for lunch now and see if we can resume at quarter to two, provide lunch, would that be convenient?

MR KOOPEDI: That is convenient for us Chairperson, even if we could have a shorter lunch, we have no problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will now adjourn for lunch and try our best to start again at quarter to two.

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. During the lunch interval, we were handed some photographs and a description of the points indicated in the photographs and it would seem that the photograph, the explosion that took place next to the fence, is explosion (a) and the explosion described by Mr Maphetho, if one looks at the first page of the handgrenade that was thrown through the bedroom window, is (f). Our photo's, we don't actually have a (f), but it is clear that points (a), (b) are on the same side of the house and (f) must have been on another side of the house which would explain the fact that no shrapnel from (a) hit Mr Maphetho. I think it is fairly clear from this. Mr Koopedi?

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, may I intervene before we proceed? Mr Chairperson, during the course of this day, especially during the hearing, if this Honourable Committee understands, I asked one question twice, why are we here and the answer was given that it was to reconcile and even the Honourable Chairperson even assisted the applicant. You even mentioned one instance that happened earlier this year, I wish that the applicant should take into consideration that we have got kids of the deceased among us here and then to go out and just talking about that, you don't care, you know like, you are not scared of anything, it shows that there is no remorse, especially on the part of the first applicant who has already given evidence and I want this Honourable Committee to take this into consideration when they make their decision with regard to this, (indistinct) of the first witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majuja. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I am a little at sea, I am not sure what my learned friend is referring to and I believe this Committee will consider you know, in making its decision, will consider evidence that is before it. I am not sure what my learned friend is referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got to consider these applications in terms of the criteria contained in the Act, which criteria I think we all are aware of, that is political objective, full disclosure and whether the application complies with the requirements of the Act, the question of remorse isn't actually one of the criteria for the granting or refusal of amnesty.

MR KOOPEDI: May I just say Chairperson, and without belabouring the issue, that the first applicant explained why he came here, the first applicant explained why he says he is sorry and with respect, I do not understand my learned friend's utterances.

MR MAJUJA: I don't know whether my learned colleague wants me to respond to that? Actually I am referring to an incident that happened when we left this hall, when we went for a break. The applicant who has already, Mr Maphetho, uttered a statement that he was not scared and if the family of the victim wants to fight, he doesn't care, he is not scared. I think the purpose of us being here, is to reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly one would hope that that would be one of the effects of an application of this nature. We have noted what you have said. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: No Chairperson, I do not want to comment on this issue.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAIRPERSON: ... continuation with your applications, are you calling ...

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, the next applicant in this matter is Mr Michael Seloane. May I ask that he be sworn in Chairperson.

MICHAEL HOMOTSANG SELOANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be speaking in English?

MR SELOANE: Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Seloane, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter?

MR SELOANE: In which matter?

MR KOOPEDI: In the amnesty application where one George Mathebula was attacked?

MR SELOANE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that your co-applicant is Mr Akila Maphetho who has just given evidence?

MR SELOANE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: You have heard his evidence, is that correct, all of it?

MR SELOANE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now he has mentioned that you were a member of a Unit known as Unit 1 in Mamelodi, is that correct?

MR SELOANE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Which would then mean that you were a member of the ANC and MK, its armed wing?

MR SELOANE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, your co-applicant has mentioned that you were involved in an attack on one George Mathebula, which according to the documentation we have here, should have happened on the 13th of the 10th month 1985, is that correct?

MR SELOANE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, this attack, who told you about it? Who told you that you should partake in it?

MR SELOANE: I was a member of Unit 1 together with Stanza and Akila and we had the meeting sometimes around August/September and that is where the order to attack George Mathebula came up. But it was only known as George, I didn't know the surname.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.

MR SELOANE: It came from Stanza.

MR KOOPEDI: It came from Stanza? Now let's go to the day of the attack, what happened, what did you do, what was your role?

MR SELOANE: It was myself and Akila and we had two grenades and then he went to one of the rooms and I came to the other room and then we timed ourselves to say that at least within the next two, three minutes we have to throw the grenades into the house. I had a brick and a grenade and then I broke the window and then threw the grenade in the room and then dived on the ground for some few seconds and then after the explosion, I stood up and then ran away.

MR KOOPEDI: When you threw your handgrenade, could you see where Mr Maphetho was?

MR SELOANE: No, he was on the opposite side of the room.

MR KOOPEDI: You mean the other side?

MR SELOANE: On the other side.

MR KOOPEDI: So you could not see him?

MR SELOANE: Yes, but we only met when we were running away, because we ran away in the same direction.

MR KOOPEDI: What type of handgrenade were you having?

MR SELOANE: I was having the offensive handgrenade.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you have an idea what type of a handgrenade was he having?

MR SELOANE: He was having a defensive one.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, and your recollection is that he threw his handgrenade after your handgrenade?

MR SELOANE: We almost threw at the same time, because the explosion was just once, it was almost at the same time or just a difference of seconds.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now do you know if anyone was injured in this operation, injured or killed?

MR SELOANE: I only learnt later, after a day in the newspapers that George and someone else got injured, I don't know if it was a wife or what, I am not sure.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now this, when this attack happened, we were told that there was reconnaissance done before the attack, were you any part of the reconnaissance?

MR SELOANE: No, I was not.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now after the attack, what did you do? Where did you go, you said you met ...

MR SELOANE: After the attack we just ran away and then went home.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, this attack, would it have been your duty to report it to anyone?

MR SELOANE: It was a duty for us to inform Stanza about the operation and then whoever he was reporting to, he has to send it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in fact report it, you yourself, were you there when it was reported to Mr Bopape?

MR SELOANE: Yes, Akile and I were together with him.

MR KOOPEDI: And in any event you were members of a Unit? What I was saying is you were members of the Unit, you, yourself, Mr Maphetho and Mr Bopape were members of one Unit?

MR SELOANE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: For this attack, did you receive any personal gain?

MR SELOANE: No.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you think that you have disclosed all the relevant facts relating to this attack to this Honourable Committee?

MR SELOANE: Yes, I have disclosed everything in the statement and also through the questions, I think I have disclosed everything.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, do you think to attack Mr George Mathebula, the attack was politically motivated?

MR SELOANE: Yes, the attack was politically motivated. In the Unit I was part of, Akila was operation's person, Stanza was our Commander and I was the Political Commissar. We were working with Youth Organisations and Student Organisations and as Akila indicated, you know the Police were the enemy of the people because they were in the forefront of the apartheid machinery, there were teargas fired in the schools, churches when we had commemmoration services and they were seen as part of the problem. That is why you know, they were attacked.

MR KOOPEDI: Now other than you know, what you have said it being a politically motivated, do you also believe that a political objective was achieved by this attack?

MR SELOANE: Yes, I think a political objective was achieved because as I indicated, the Police and even the soldiers were the ones who were in the forefront of the defence of apartheid, because the community didn't want apartheid but it was always harassed by the soldiers and the Police who were in the township, everywhere and there was no freedom of movement. Even in funerals, the Police were attacking the people and firing teargas on the food that people have to eat after the funeral. A number of youth and students died in the process between January 1985 and the end of 1985. So, that whole process, there was that battle between the Police and the community in general. And in particular, youth and students.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that will be the evidence in chief of the second applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to ask this applicant?

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I realise you represent the Makhudu family, but I am giving you the opportunity if you desire. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe? Mr Lax? Mr Seloane, did you receive training, you mentioned that you were a member of MK, did you receive any sort of military training?

MR SELOANE: Yes, I received training but not outside the country, inside the country in the use of grenades and also the question of Intelligence and counter-intelligence, that training all happened inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I think that concludes the evidence of this applicant.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, may I proceed to call the next and last applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Lazarus Chikane. I will ask that he be sworn in.

LAZARUS CHIKANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, are you also going to testify in English?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Chikane, you - I take it you have heard the evidence of Mr Akila Maphetho, is that correct?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you are his co-applicant when it comes to what we have referred to in this incident as the second incident, the killing of Zenzile Makhudu?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, he, I am referring to the first applicant, Mr Akila Maphetho, he has told this Committee that you were involved in the attack on Mr Makhudu.

MR CHIKANE: That is true.

MR KOOPEDI: Can you tell this Honourable Committee how wee you involved?

MR CHIKANE: Myself as a person who has been recruited by Akila to join this Unit that I belonged to, he gave instructions on an activity that we had to carry out, that is attack the house of Mr Zenzile Makhudu. As a recruitee I had no authority to actually start to question whatever the command structure and my orders came from. We went to the house on the night of the attack, I was supposed to actually throw the grenade in the first bedroom, that is the bedroom just adjacent to the street and he had to actually throw his grenade on the other bedroom, which is on the other side of the house. The instruction was that I had to throw my grenade first in the room that was just next to the road and after that, he will throw his grenade when he hears the explosion, on the other bedroom. I didn't go into the yard, I waited for him to go into the yard until he was concealed on the other side of the house. I personally didn't go into the yard, I threw my grenade into the yard, that is hitting the house, so (indistinct) with the intention of it landing inside the bedroom and took cover for a few seconds after the explosion, then I fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what are you saying Mr Chikane, you were standing on the street side of the fence and you threw that grenade, do you say it hit the house and then bounced back?

MR CHIKANE: Street side of the fence, yes, it hit the house. The intention was for it to land inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: You missed the window?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, I am not sure where it landed finally, but the intention was to get it into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you threw it towards the house and then it went off?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, and I took cover.

CHAIRPERSON: And you took cover?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR KOOPEDI: After throwing your handgrenade, you say you took cover. For how long did you take cover?

MR CHIKANE: It must have been close to a second if I want to be precise, that wasn't for very long. Just to give it time to explode and I took off.

MR KOOPEDI: And did it explode?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, it exploded.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you recall where exactly did it explode?

MR CHIKANE: I can't recall, you know the kind of paralysing fear that I was in, so I didn't even sit around to analyze where it exploded and so on, I took cover and then took off.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you see or hear Mr Maphetho's handgrenade explode?

MR CHIKANE: No, I was in a state of shock I think when I ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was this your first operation?

MR CHIKANE: That was the first and the only operation.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, after rising from your cover, where did you go?

MR CHIKANE: I ran towards the place where we were supposed to meet, at Maphetho's house, just before the gate so that we could meet and decide what to do and we dispersed after that.

MR KOOPEDI: So you did actually meet with him after that operation?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, just after the explosion.

MR KOOPEDI: And thereafter dispersed?

MR CHIKANE: Then dispersed, I went home to sleep.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now do you know if anyone was injured by the handgrenade that you or Mr Maphetho threw?

MR CHIKANE: The first report came from the newspapers the following morning and that is when I knew how the incident finally rolled up.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now were you paid or did you get any personal gain out of or for having participated in this operation?

MR CHIKANE: No, I didn't receive any payment or no gain.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, as far as your recollection can assist you, do you think you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts pertaining to this attack to this Honourable Committee?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, I have made a full disclosure.

MR KOOPEDI: And in your own mind, do you think that this attack was politically motivated?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, it was.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief of the last witness, Mr Chikane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA: Yes, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chikane, how far is your home from the deceased's place of residence?

MR CHIKANE: I am not good with estimates, but it is about a kilometre.

MR MAJUJA: So, the deceased was well known to you?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, he was well known to me.

MR MAJUJA: How did you know him?

MR CHIKANE: He was a cop, he was a member of the Criminal Investigation Department and as I was also involved in community activities, anti-crime, to curb crime and so on, he was one of those people who was in the forefront to actually tell us that our structures won't take off.

MR MAJUJA: So you are saying that he was, okay, you say he was in the CID and you were involved in some of the community activities?

MR CHIKANE: I personally was.

MR MAJUJA: What kind of activities are you talking about?

MR CHIKANE: Anti-crime campaigns, Mamelodi Youth Organisation, those are the activities.

MR MAJUJA: So I believe that as he was in the CID, you have already met probably in one of the crimes that you were trying to solve in Mamelodi?

MR CHIKANE: Can you come again, I am not ...

MR MAJUJA: Because as he was a member of the CID, a CID member and you were a member of the anti-crime, I don't know whether it is a committee or what?

CHAIRPERSON: Campaign, I think it was anti-crime campaign?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

MR MAJUJA: So probably you have met maybe at the Police station with him?

MR CHIKANE: No, the cops at that time were completely opposed to that type of campaigns, they wanted actually to ensure that no anti-crime activities take place in the townships, so he was opposed to our kind of activities as a cop.

MR MAJUJA: Okay, can you tell us when Akila, the first witness, Mr Maphetho, told you that you should, you will be going to this to attack Mr Makhudu's house, did he tell you like maybe what was the main reason, besides attacking the house?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, well firstly the fact that he himself was one of the key Policeman who actually wanted to ensure that structures don't take off, we were unable to fight crime. When Akila came across to explain that he is one of the people that he has identified as people who are actually in the forefront of leading harassment against people, then I had no other question or doubt that he is the person that we should actually take this action against.

MR MAJUJA: Did Mr Maphetho tell you that maybe that maybe you were going to kill him or, you know, I just want to know that?

MR CHIKANE: I guess with grenades the intention is to kill.

MR MAJUJA: How many explosions, okay, you said you had only one explosion. You didn't hear Mr Maphetho's ...

MR CHIKANE: I said I was in a state of paralysing fear so the senses of recollecting what explosions were taking place, what I heard was the explosion of my grenade, that is when I took cover and took off.

MR MAJUJA: So how far were you when you threw this handgrenade to the house?

MR CHIKANE: I must have been about a metre from the fence, a metre from the fence.

MR MAJUJA: And where did you take cover?

MR CHIKANE: The other, the house next door on the fence.

MR MAJUJA: And you said, maybe after how long after the explosion, after taking cover, how long did you like take, were you like stood around and you left or what happened?

MR CHIKANE: No, I ran.

MR MAJUJA: You ran away?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

MR MAJUJA: Could you tell us what was the time maybe, on that night?

MR CHIKANE: I am not good with estimates, I am not sure, but it was at night, in the early hours of the morning.

MR MAJUJA: Early hours of the morning, thank you. And at what time did you arrive at Mr Akila's house, you don't know?

MR CHIKANE: I also don't.

MR MAJUJA: Can you like maybe estimate, like how long did it take Akila to arrive at his home?

MR CHIKANE: Well, if you insist, it should have been about two minutes or between two and five minutes.

MR MAJUJA: Between two and five minutes? Okay, in your application, I think it is page 2, I don't understand especially if you regard paragraph 9(a)(iv). Mr Chairperson, paragraph 9(a)(iv).

MR CHIKANE: What is it that you want?

MR MAJUJA: You said -

I want to know like, whom were you referring to here, were you referring to Akila or who, I just want to know?

MR CHIKANE: Higher Officer?

MR MAJUJA: Yes?

MR CHIKANE: No, as a Commander to him.

MR MAJUJA: Oh, the Commander to him?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, his Commander. Whose name I didn't know, I only discovered it when I made this application.

MR MAJUJA: But earlier on you have said that Akila gave you the orders and then you didn't question it?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

MR MAJUJA: So but why are you saying this that ...

MR CHIKANE: I am saying that, all right, command structures in any type of para-military or military structure, obviously if you are linked to an organisation like MK, it doesn't exist, you won't exist as a Unit independent, you always have a line of command that you have to follow and amongst other things that I was not supposed to be as a recruit, is to also try and find out where else this comes from. That was for my own protection and protection of other people that I might be working with. That is why I didn't want to know who gave him that order.

MR MAJUJA: No, it is very interesting. In the very same paragraph you were saying that you were in a state of shock, so you didn't like, you know, you cannot recollect anything but you say that the one that you threw, landed outside the house. How did you see it, how did you know that it was outside the house because you just threw it and took cover?

MR CHIKANE: This application was made in 19 whatever, 19 something, after we had attacked the place, it is upon yourself to decide whether you still want to go and check exactly what happened. I personally, on my own, after a few weeks when all this had been in the press, I went passed that area and checked exactly what happened, that is why I am actually able to sketch the picture of exactly what I said, because I knew the side on which I threw the grenade and I could clearly see where the explosion was, but at that time, I could not even tell where the grenade landed. I think it was for the purpose of actually trying to put across all information that I knew up to the stage when I made the application.

MR MAJUJA: Okay. So, you say that Zenzile was constantly harassing members of the community?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

MR MAJUJA: So have you ever been harassed by Zenzile maybe before?

MR CHIKANE: In one of the forums, anti forum activities that we had at the place, D1, called Greenland, we were actually trying to sort some of the petty criminal activities that some guy has committed, he came personally there in his car and drove into the crowd, we had to rush. And he stood there for a while, parading, so I had you know personal, I was a recipient in one of the activities of harassment that he was giving out.

MR MAJUJA: So, your participation in the attack, you were defending the community?

MR CHIKANE: Exactly.

MR MAJUJA: But how could you defend the community by attacking another person?

MR CHIKANE: Easy, because if you could harass, if you had those type of resources to actually also prevent us from solving criminal activities that we were faced with, then it was for us to actually try and take an action that would ensure that this type of activities are brought to a halt.

MR MAJUJA: Do you regret your actions?

MR CHIKANE: I really regret my actions.

MR MAJUJA: Okay, what is the motive of you being here?

MR CHIKANE: My motive for being here is to actually show that the family finally knows who actually was part of the activities of eliminating their brother, their parent, their father and for that reason, I felt motivated to come here, simply because it wouldn't have been fair on them not to know who actually carried out this attack on their father. For that reason I feel that because there was no (indistinct), there was no investigation, a suspicion against me, it really touched me deeply, to have to come out and expose myself, to say I was part of that type of activity.

MR MAJUJA: So by the way, were you only a member of MK or a member of the ANC? I just want to know that maybe?

MR CHIKANE: Myself, I was recruited into MK directly.

MR MAJUJA: Oh, okay. How long did you like train maybe before this incident, you know, for how long were you like in the Unit?

MR CHIKANE: I think it was about six months.

MR MAJUJA: Six months? Were you part of the team that was like, you know, checking on whether Zenzile was at home?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, reconnaissance, if you had to be part of an action, you also need to be part and parcel to familiarise with the place and try and see exactly what the area looks like, so as to ensure that you avoid injuring or hurting people who you didn't intend to hit.

MR MAJUJA: So you saw Zenzile when he went home, when he arrived at his home?

MR CHIKANE: I was not part of all reconnaissance activities, but I have been there to the house to see what it looks like and so on.

MR MAJUJA: Oh, so it was not on this particular day?

MR CHIKANE: On the night when my Commander went to check if he was home, I wasn't part of that reconnaissance, I was only part of the operation later.

MR MAJUJA: And you know, in your application there is somewhere where you refer to "us", and I just want to know like, who are those other people who are "us", you know?

MR CHIKANE: Can you quote the paragraph and the page?

MR MAJUJA: I think it is 9(4), page 2, but anyway, I think you have already answered that question. With regard to this information that Zenzile was with his girlfriend or fiance, where did you get it from?

MR CHIKANE: The press the following morning.

MR MAJUJA: Oh okay. Could you give us the particulars, can you give us maybe like the date when this order was made to like from, or you don't know, like to eliminate these people.

MR CHIKANE: I can't recall the date.

MR MAJUJA: Were you part of the Mamelodi Committee too?

MR CHIKANE: Mamelodi what?

MR MAJUJA: Committee?

MR CHIKANE: What Committee is that?

MR MAJUJA: No, there was a Committee I understand from the evidence that was made by Akila.

MR CHIKANE: If I knew what Committee you were referring to...

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Majuja is referring to a Committee referred to by Mr Maphetho when he was giving his evidence, he called it the Mamelodi Committee and he explained that there were various sections which had Committees and then they sent delegates to this Central Committee, is that the one Mr Majuja? The one referred to by the first applicant who testified?

MR MAJUJA: Yes, I am referring to that Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: And he referred to it as the Mamelodi Committee.

MR CHIKANE: Oh yes, I was a member yes.

MR MAJUJA: With regard to your actions, are you satisfied that you have achieved the objective of like you know, the attack maybe?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, it is a kind of a mixed feeling because on the other side I am satisfied that amongst people that were harassing us, we actually managed to reduce the casualties on their side, but for the family and all the other people, I am also sad like you know, we have just taken a life away of someone who would be looking after his kids. It is like it is a mixed feeling.

MR MAJUJA: I don't know whether you have had, I don't know whether you have heard the evidence that was led by Mr Maphetho?

MR CHIKANE: Yes, I was here.

MR MAJUJA: I just want to know like, do you agree with him when he said that Sergeant Makhudu once boasted at Maseko about you know like going to stop the UDF from rising.

MR CHIKANE: No, I wasn't there, I think he put it personally as to what he experienced. I just pointed to something that he didn't mention, that I have been part of that, that I have seen Sergeant Makhudu act out his ...

MR MAJUJA: But are you aware that several people had been helped by Sergeant Makhudu, especially from the movement side?

MR CHIKANE: There might be, I am not disputing that.

MR MAJUJA: You are not disputing that?

MR CHIKANE: No.

MR MAJUJA: Because I put it to you that Sergeant Makhudu in most cases, he was the one who was tipping comrades about the pending arrests.

MR CHIKANE: I can't dispute that, you know, obviously it was a terrible situation. I mean I can't even mention other cases, people were killed wrongfully and, but for the reasons that I have specified, for the kind of things that I had seen, I couldn't even think twice when I was told that he should be the target.

MR MAJUJA: And the only incident I think that you have seen, is the incident where you said that he went through the crowd with a car and parked the car?

MR CHIKANE: An incident is not a totalification of all examples where he has taken part. I am just giving you an example to say in this particular incident, I was there and that is what I have seen.

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, thank you, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE : Just one, that incident where he drove through the crowd, the name was what, Greenlands?

MR CHIKANE: It was in a section called D1, it is a Mamelodi Section M.

ADV GCABASHE : Mamelodi Section M?

MR CHIKANE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you, thank you Chair.

MR LAX: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one point, small point Mr Chikane, you say that you were recruited directly into MK and you received

approximately six months' training. By that are you saying that prior to your recruitment, you weren't actually a member of the ANC, just a supporter or what?

MR CHIKANE: I am saying that from the time I was recruited to the time that the incident happened, it was six months. The training didn't last six months, I was afforded training in the use of grenades and other type of military weapons, but that didn't take the whole of the six months. So my first contact with maybe an outside or banned organisation was with MK directly, well as a sub-structure of the ANC, one would automatically have membership to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, that concludes the testimony of Mr Chikane.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that will be the case for the three applicants, we intend calling no other witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any witnesses to call?

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, yes, I do have some witnesses to call, but with the Honourable Committee's permission, may I just like have a short ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a five minute adjournment?

MR MAJUJA: Yes, a five minute adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment and then we will reconvene to continue.

ON RESUMPTION:

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that we close our case.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not calling any witnesses?

MR MAJUJA: We are not calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well, then that concludes the testimony in this matter. Mr Koopedi, do you have any submissions you would like to make? Sorry, Ms Mtanga, are you going to be calling somebody?

MS MTANGA: No, I am not calling anyone Chairperson, but a request has been made to me by two people who are Rosina Mabena and Mr Mathebula, they would like to say something, they do not want to give evidence, but they ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just to make a statement?

MS MTANGA: Just to make a statement before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Further to that, if I may put on record that Mr T.R. Rademeyer had appeared for the Mathebula family and for Ms Rosina Mabena.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, I forgot to mention that, he was here earlier this morning and he did introduce himself to us before he left.

MS MTANGA: He also indicated that the two families, that is the Mathebula family and Ms Rosina Mabena were not opposing the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Well, can you call them up.

MS MTANGA: I would like to call Rosina Mabena to take the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could sit next to Mr Koopedi there, please Ms Mabena and then when you talk, you must please push the button on. Thank you Mr Koopedi. Sorry, before you start, what are your full names? What are your full names please?

MS MABENA: Rosina Mabena. Rosina Mabena.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct, is it Mrs or Miss?

MS MABENA: Miss.

CHAIRPERSON: That you wish to make a statement?

MS MABENA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MS MABENA: It was on the 23rd of January 1986, we were asleep. I heard a noise or a bang. After some minutes, that was after some minutes before I woke up, then after I woke up, I found that the late was in fire. After that, I took water and poured water on him and then two Policemen came, that is Machabane and Maposa. I asked them who called them, then they said someone telephoned them and then they don't know who called them. After that the ambulance came and we went to the hospital. In the hospital I was discharged, then I went to where he was, then he was certified dead when I arrived. Then I came back home.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything further you would like to say Ms Mabena?

MS MABENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to say anything more?

MS MABENA: Yes, and then now I am injured on the right hand side, then I have (indistinct) operations, then I have an asthma and then my right hand side is not working well. I am saying so because the public in Mamelodi, Makhudu's family and then from his laws, the community was alleged that I was responsible for this incident. I am happy that I am here and that the people who were responsible, identified themselves that they were responsible because the community alleged that I was alleged for this operation. Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mabena. We appreciate you coming forward. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: The next person is Mr Mathebula, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathebula, is it correct that your name is George Mathebula and is it also correct that you just wish to make a statement as well? You may proceed, thank you.

MR MATHEBULA: It was on the 13th of October 1985, it was not long that I was from the toilet, then I went to the bedroom. When I was just about to climb on the bed, then I saw two handgrenades thrown in my bedroom. Then we ran, that was myself and my wife and my mother, then whilst we were in the kitchen, we heard the third one. When I went outside through the kitchen door, then I followed one who was running through the gate, then I fell on the ground, then I ran to the next door house and then the gate was closed, I don't know how I entered, then I was helped with first-aid, then the ambulance came. All my clothes were burnt, then we were taken to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything further you would like to say Mr Mathebula?

MR MATHEBULA: I didn't know the people responsible for this incident, I first saw them today, this morning, since 1985. I forgive them, but I am just worried about the damage which happened at home and the houses next door, were damaged.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we spoke to your legal advisor this morning, Mr Rademeyer, and we informed him that it is our procedure in these matters that if we identify victims, we forward their names and particulars through to the Reparations Committee who will then investigate the matter with a view to looking whether or not reparations should be made and we will of course do this in this matter as well, we will do the same thing. We have also asked Mr Rademeyer to give details, your details and details of persons who suffered damage, I don't know if the details of your neighbours are included there, but if not, if you could speak to Ms Mtanga. Have you finished now? Thank you Mr Mathebula. Does that then conclude the evidence?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it does.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi, do you have any submissions to make?

MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: A very brief submission Chairperson. The Chairperson and Honourable Committee members, three applicants have appeared before you, the first applicant was Mr Akila Maphetho who was involved in both incidents, which is the attack on Mr George Mathebula and also the attack on Mr Zenzile Makhudu which resulted in his death.

Chairperson the second applicant is only involved in the first incident which refers to the attack on Mr Mathebula and the third applicant is only involved with the second incident, the attack on Mr Zenzile Makhudu. Before I proceed Chairperson, I would make an application or a request that the second applicant,

the person who today has been sworn in twice, that his amnesty application be condoned because from what I see, it was not attested to, it was not sworn to. I would request that that discrepancy be condoned as he has given evidence under oath.

Chairperson and Honourable Committee members, it is my submission that other than that discrepancy on the second applicant's application form, I submit that the three applications meet with the criteria and requirements stipulated by the Act. I further submit that from the evidence before you that was brought about through direct evidence and also through cross-examination, all three applicants have fully disclosed the relevant facts, material to the two attacks. I further wish to go on to say that from the very evidence that was adduced today in this hearing, it became very clear that no personal gain was received by any of the applicants. Chairperson and Honourable Committee members, the issue of political motivation has also been brought to the fore.

Finally the last, I am not sure whether to call a witness, but I will jump the gun and call him a victim perhaps before he is declared a victim, the last person to give a statement here, mentioned three explosions. Chairperson, I would with respect ask you to disregard that part in that it was not given in evidence, and therefore we did not see the need to challenge the veracity thereof. That having been said Chairperson, I will ask that the three applicants be given, be granted amnesty. Perhaps finally Chairperson, there has been a request from the applicants and I thought it would be proper to ask that Chairperson, you assist us in this if you can, the request is that after this hearing, the applicants would love to have an opportunity with the families and the victims involved in this matter. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. On that last point, Mr Koopedi, obviously that is also up to the families of the victims and the victims themselves, but I must say that where this has happened in the past in my experience, it has always been a very useful and fruitful exercise and it is certainly a type of meeting that I would encourage and - but I can't tell people to have meetings, that is up to the people themselves. It is and it has been proved in the past to be a good exercise and very fruitful, thank you. Mr Majuja?

MR MAJUJA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would like to call someone to just come and express her feelings about this before I submit my argument because I didn't want it to be part of evidence, that is why I closed my case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Who do you wish to call?

MR MAJUJA: I wish to call (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this also to make a statement?

MR MAJUJA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to make a statement. Could you please take a seat next to Mr Koopedi? What are your full names please?

MS NQOMALO: Lorna Lindiwe Nqomalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nqomalo, is it correct that you also just wish to make a statement?

MS NQOMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MS NQOMALO: On behalf of the Makhudu family, Lehabe, Kokhela and (indistinct), it is not upon the family to disregard the people who came here to apply for amnesty, grant nor refuse to grant them, but we came here to get full disclosure, but unfortunately we feel that we did not achieve what we came here for. The things that we feel that were not mentioned is that the people who actually took upon the operation, according to me were immature. Why I am saying this is because of I mean, you can see that their training was limited and the way they attacked the house, the grenade that actually killed my stepfather, it is not possible if you could have thrown that handgrenade, it could have actually landed in his legs, but you could see that they had full information, breaking the window and attacking him in the head, where they knew that he was going to be helpless. Rosina, you are right by saying that the family was suspecting you, yes, we did. The people who came here and testified, we feel that there was a lot of collaboration because how can as Akila mentioned, that some of the grenades you know, they've got a certain impact, why you didn't sustain injuries where you could have been even admitted for you know, even three days in hospital, but you were discharged immediately. My father, to be honest, if Akila said he mentioned in Maseku, I used to frequent that place as well, where everyone used to be there, taxi's were there, he was a people's person. I wouldn't say he didn't fear people, but he could be with people. I won't say people were afraid of him, but why if he was an enemy and he could say whatever he could say and he was never attacked in public. I feel we didn't get full disclosure of the whole thing, but the family, we are not saying we are opposing amnesty, it is upon this people and their God, we are all human here, we have got our own mistakes that we do upon other people, so their God will give them amnesty, but we will never forgive and forget as the family. It will always be there with us. No money will repay the damage and with that, I don't want to contradict myself any further. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Nqomalo. Mr Majuja?

MR MAJUJA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, we have heard evidence that has been led by the

applicants today and as you have just heard Lorna, we are not saying that we are opposing their application for amnesty, but our problem and that will always remain a problem, that we are not satisfied with the submissions of the applicants today, in particular Akila. I believe that he was not the only person together with the third applicant who were at the scene. Furthermore the way he was contradicting himself when he was submitting his evidence, with regard to the throwing of handgrenades into the house, we heard him, he was clear about it. We used bricks, then we threw in the handgrenades into the house. It is amazing that if somebody is inside the house and sleeping, if you break the window, you couldn't hear that. This is why we are not satisfied with the evidence because I believe that if Sergeant Makhudu couldn't wake up when the window was being broken, it is either he was given sleeping tablets or something else, but I am not sure about that, I am just you know, assuming that that might have happened. Even the fact, even the question that I asked Akila about Lieutenant Le Roux, you know ordering Policemen to go and investigate the explosion, we still have a lot of questions with regard to that. We are not satisfied with that. We thought maybe the applicants would assist us with that particular incident.

But more or less, whatever this Committee decides with regard to the applications by the three applicants, I put that discretion in the Committee's hands and as Lorna has just said, their fate would be decided by the Man up there. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majuja. Ms Mtanga, do you have any submissions?

MS MTANGA: I have no submissions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any reply?

MR KOOPEDI IN FURTHER ARGUMENT: I must say Chairperson, I have been debating in my mind whether to reply, I will have a very brief reply. Chairperson, I will restrict this to what my learned friend has said, in any event, that is what I have to reply to.

I must say Chairperson, I am mostly disturbed by the manner in which my learned friend for the Makhudu family has approached this matter. He has called a person, not a witness, whom he said that he is calling that person after my address because he didn't want that to be part of the evidence, but in his submission he starts of by referring Chairperson to what this witness said and what this witness has said, revolves around the issue of whether the truth has been told to the Committee.

The person who, I will call her a witness Chairperson for easy reference, the witness believes that there was corroboration

between one of the victims and the applicants. Chairperson, with respect, no such evidence was brought before us and I have no idea why such evidence was not brought before or why wasn't it even put to any of the applicants that they connived with someone. My learned friend also goes on speculating about what could have happened, what may have happened when there is definitely no evidence before this Committee contradicting the evidence that has been given to this Committee. I must stress that my learned friend had an opportunity to deal with those issues, to put his case to the applicants but that was not done.

Be that as it may Chairperson, I will stand by my initial address, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, a last thing, actually what I am saying is that we don't have a problem with, that is why I am putting everything in the hands of the Committee. You see, that is why - that was just my submission, just to put the way the family feels, you see. Because we are convinced that with regard to some of the requirements of the Committee, those have been met, except for only one that we are still in contention, that is the full disclosure. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that then concludes this hearing. We will reserve our decision. And that also Ms Mtanga, brings us to the end of the roll?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it does.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to before we finally adjourn, just to thank the people who made these hearings possible, the Interpreters who always work so hard, Ms Mtanga, the Evidence Leader who sets up the hearings, plays a big role in that and the Logistics Officer, Elizabeth, our Secretary, Molly, who helps, the Sound Technicians, the Security provided, the caterers and the people who provided the hall, thank you very much and also the legal representatives who have assisted us and the television crew and the media people as well. Everybody involved, thank you very much. We will now adjourn.