--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Today is Tuesday 15 June 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty applications of N R Nkwenkwe and 16 others.

Yes, Mr Obose, you were going to call Mr Nkwenkwe.

MR OBOSE: That is correct, Mr Chairman. He is here.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you full names Nsikilelo Richmond Nkwenkwe?

MR NKWENKWE: That is correct.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose.

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Mr Nkwenkwe, can you state your rank and your employment please.

MR NKWENKWE: I am a sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Where?

MR NKWENKWE: I am working at the fingerprints office in King William's Town.

MR OBOSE: You are attached to the South African police services, correct?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Since when have you been a policeman?

MR NKWENKWE: From the 25th June 1987.

MR OBOSE: Now, you are familiar with the incident in March 22nd and the 23rd of March 1994, is that correct?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Will you just tell the Commission as to what occurred during those days or days immediately prior to 22nd March 1994.

MR NKWENKWE: When I started there just before the 22nd of March, there used to be a call where they used to say they want the warrant officers to gather at Bisho in the college. That never affected us, but on that particular day on the 22nd, the radio control called people at about 11 a.m., they were telling us that everyone is supposed to be at Bisho in the college but we did not know who was actually summoning the police but we were just told that all the policemen are supposed to be at the college. When I arrived at the hall, the college hall, the hall was full already.

MR OBOSE: When you received this call or message, where were you?

MR NKWENKWE: I was driving a car. I was at work doing the cases in a car that belongs to the fingerprints office. I went via the office to collect the other police and I told them that all of them are supposed to be there.

When we arrived there we realised that there were police that were being saluted and those that were not being saluted. Those that were being saluted were at the podium and in front of those senior police, that is senior policemen were at the podium and there was a table in front of them. I remember Inspector Mfene was also there and when I came inside the hall he was the one who was addressing the meeting. I arrived there at about half past 11.

MR OBOSE: In the morning?

MR NKWENKWE: Half past 11 in the morning.

There were so many issues that were being discussed there. Among other things they were discussing about the fright that the police had during the elections because at that time there was a conflict between the ADM and the community organisations like ANC. The people were singing freedom songs and church songs and I used to love music. When I came in I was sitting with the crowd but I decided later on to go up and stood in front of the microphone and I started singing there. As a person who grew up in Port Elizabeth I used to know those freedom songs.

It came to a stage whereby we were told, because the hall was becoming full and we were told the reason for us to be there in that hall. Inspector Mfene told us. He told us that each and everyone who was there was called by General Nqoya, Commissioner Nqoya. He said he just went to Brig Gqozo’s office, he would be back. He asked for some minutes and then he would be back.

We waited there singing. There were also other transport problems. The other police from Umtanzani did not have transport but those problems were later solved because a bus from the riot unit was sent there to fetch them and even the police from Whittlesea were also on their way to the meeting because we were told that Gen Nqoya was calling us. In the afternoon, still waiting for this general, there were also other issues that came about and the police would ask questions like pensions, what was going to happen in terms of pensions as we were going to be affiliated in the greater South Africa. We were also told that Gen Nqoya would come and answer to those questions.

Some members were elected or appointed at about 4, those members who were going to be sent to look for Gen Nqoya in his office, in the commissioner's office. I was among those members who were appointed to go and look for the General, but this was not the first appointment. Some people were appointed to go and look for him. They would come back bare handed. As I was working there at the fingerprints office I was coming from the riot unit so I had a licence, a driver's licence for a big police Caspir. I drove this police Caspir to the commissioner's office looking for Gen Nqoya. There were also other policemen who were in the open bakkies, who were also following us.

MR OBOSE: Why did you have to go with a Hippo to check Comm Nqoya?

MR NKWENKWE: I forgot to mention that just before 4 o'clock some soldiers came in the hall, about 6 soldiers, they came, they said they were sent to inspect, to see what is it that we were doing there. Insp Mfene told them that we were doing nothing there, but we were just waiting for Gen Nqoya to listen to the grievances of the police or to listen to the problems of the police. Those soldiers left and we had a fright that those soldiers might come back again. That is when we decided that the policemen should be armed because the Ciskeian soldiers were an obstacle if we wanted to see Brig Gqozo.

We started looking for the keys for the armoury but there was some confusion. I cannot remember whether it was Brig Wuso or Capt Mondo or Superintendent Mema who had the keys but at the end he gave up the keys of the armoury, that is where the police arms were kept. The police were armed with firearms, but I did not go there because I had a firearm at the time, a firearm R5 that I took from the office, fingerprints office.

MR OBOSE: So to the meeting you went armed with an R5 rifle, or at what stage did you get to be in possession of same?

MR NKWENKWE: For example, I used to have this firearm wherever I go but at this particular moment when the police were armed and we were about to get into the Caspir, I took out this R5 as I was driving a Monza, I took out this R5 because we anticipated that on the way to look for Gen Nqoya we could meet with these soldiers and shoot at us, because they'd been to the hall to check what was it that we were doing in the hall.

MR OBOSE: Were all the policemen armed, those in the delegation that went to look for Comm Nqoya, you yourselves in the Hippo and the others in the open bakkie?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, each and everyone who was in that delegation was armed.

MR OBOSE: With assault rifles, R4's, R5's etc?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes. We were armed and others had the 9mm firearms, and R5's because this other one, the smaller one, is always kept in the waist. We arrived at the commissioner's office and we got inside. We realised that the police who were supposed to be guarding the premises were not there. I just thought that they were already in the college.

We got into the offices looking for Gen Nqoya, we couldn't find him. We used another gate that led us to the parliament and still we couldn't see him there and we went back to the college and we made a report back.

MR OBOSE: Did you get any report as to where he was from anybody in his office?

MR NKWENKWE: There was not one in those offices when we arrived, even in the parliament there was no one because it was after 4 and even the people, the public servants, had gone at that time.

We went back to the college to report back and we told the people that we couldn't find Gen Nqoya. I came with a solution as we were also scared of the soldiers, that they would come back as they had been there before because Brig Gqozo wanted them to check what was happening there. I came up with a plan to go to those soldiers and tell them about our meeting. I was also among the members who left for the base, the army base, just on the other side of the college. We were welcomed by those soldiers when we arrived and we told them that we were there at the college because we were there to discuss our future in the greater South Africa and it was apparent that in Ciskei no action would take place or no voting would take place because Brig Gqozo and ADM were killing the people. At that time Brig Gqozo had associated himself with IFP and Mangope and it became apparent that the rural areas, those states were not going to vote, but we did not tell them more about our intention because we wanted to overthrow Brig Gqozo’s regime. We couldn't trust those soldiers, that is why we did not tell them that. We went back to the hall, the time was about 6 in the afternoon, or in the evening. We decided upon - as the Radio Ciskei was always on guard, even the gate, the parliament gate and the state house where Brig Gqozo used to stay, it was announced that we should go and talk to the soldiers who were safeguarding Gqozo’s place, to leave him unprotected because we also wanted a way, an access to Gqozo’s premises.

When we went there driving this Hippo, those soldiers were not there, they had already taken in their positions at the Radio Ciskei gate and the parliament gate and the state house, they were no longer there. We came back. When we went back to the college, we decided upon appointing another group of people who would go and discuss with Brig Gqozo and to tell him what was happening because Gen Nqoya did not come back, as a person who had gone to Brig Gqozo’s place. I was among the group who was sent to Brig Gqozo’s place. It was before 7 o'clock, just before 7 o'clock in the evening, the evening of the 22nd. When we arrived there at Brig Gqozo’s place, the soldiers were not at the gate. We moved towards the premises secretly. The Hippo was just there, it was used to patrol and just look at the climate of what was actually happening. We got into Brig Gqozo’s premises and he welcomed us.

Capt Dioko was also there when we arrived there at Brig Gqozo. We were so surprised to hear from him. Just before he knew anything about our visit he said we sold him out, we asked him what is it that he meant and then he said that if the police are revolting that is a sign that they do not need that particular government because police are supposed to maintain law and order and he told us that the bodyguards had left him, they were at the army base at Bisho. He told us that he had just talked to Pik Botha, telling him that he was resigning. We got a surprise. He then asked us about our visit. We told him that we were there to tell him that the police want to see him at the college. He asked for the reasons. We told him that we were sent there to ask him to go to the college because Gen Nqoya was sent to see him but he did not go back to the college. He told us that he was not prepared to go to the police, but he told us to go and tell the police that he had left his office.

As we were going to the state house we saw the SADF there, the South African Defence Force, the convoy. It was there just on the other side of the stadium. He told us that he had told Pik Botha to prevent the S A D F not to enter Ciskei because the soldiers and police had already taken over the control, that's what Brig Gqozo told us. So we wanted proof that he was actually telling the truth and then he told us to go to those soldiers and police and he told us that he knew that the soldiers were also there at the college. He told us to go to those people and tell them that he had surrendered but we insisted on telling him that the people asked us to go and fetch him because we had some information that Gen Nqoya was hiding in the state house. He told us that Gen Nqoya was not there, he last saw him during the day at about 11 when they had a meeting.

We left Brig Gqozo’s premises after hearing that he had resigned. We reported back at the college telling the other police that Brig Gqozo - we asked him if he cannot go there and address the people and tell them and he promised that he would do that the following day and tell the people that he had surrendered, he had given control back to greater South Africa, there was no more Ciskei.

We went back to the college and we told them about this, but the police did not accept that, the fact that he did not come to the college to tell them that he had surrendered. We tried to talk to the police strongly, not to force Brig Gqozo because he had promised that the following day he would go to the stadium.

The night went on. There were other issues that came about. I remembered Capt Makubelu's issue, who was employed in a manner that we did not understand. I was the one who brought that up. I was asking the other police about their view about this case when a person is convicted in the court of law and Gen Nqoya would place that person back at work. There was a lot of people who would be convicted and would not be taken back to work again. This issue was discussed in the hall because just before Capt Makubelu's placement, his fingerprints were given to me to be screened and I realised that he had a record, but what came to me as a surprise was that this person was already employed but he had a record. There were also other problems, maladministration of funds. The police heard that Brig Gqozo had left his office but there were other problems that were being discussed, problems that were affecting the police at large.

Mr Goosen came at about 10 in the evening. I did not see Mr Finqa but heard that he was with him, but I only saw Mr Goosen who came to tell us to disperse because Brig Gqozo had resigned, therefore he was requesting us to disperse. The police were reluctant and they said that they were not prepared to disperse because they wanted to see Brig Gqozo the following day at the stadium addressing the Ciskeian people. The most important people were the civil servants, therefore he was supposed to address them and tell them that he had given control back to South Africa. Mr Goosen left, though he tried to beg us to disperse, but he ended up leaving the hall. Mr Jurgens came and the others in the morning telling us that charges of mutiny would be laid against us. There were a lot of things or events that took place on that particular day but we achieved the success of removing Brig Gqozo from his office.

MR OBOSE: Thank you. Now let's come to the officers. How did they happen to be there? Do you know?

MR NKWENKWE: I cannot remember seeing the officers coming in. I would just see the officers up in the podium as the people who used to be respected. We did not respect them on that particular day because of what was happening. They would come in and they would be called to go up to the podium. I remember in the middle of the night when they were talking about two white men, Maj Simms and Col Oosthuizen, Insp Mfene suggested that they be released but the police refused. They said these people who were called seconded officials in the Ciskei, were part and parcel of the Ciskeian police. I remember they were already on their way out and they had to go back again to the house and the police refused. Among the black officers, I do not remember any of the black officers wanting to leave. The people who had requested to be relieved were Col Simms and Col Oosthuizen. I don't know whom did they approach to announce that in the hall but that was never accepted. They were told to remain there because we wanted this action to be seen as the action of the police at large, the police were in one voice, were one.

MR OBOSE: Now, generally speaking were police in favour of the continued rule of Brig Gqozo or not, on the whole?

MR NKWENKWE: I am not going to speak on behalf of the senior officers. The police at the lower ranks were not satisfied about Brig Gqozo’s rule. I remember one day, on a Sunday, as I was still working for the riot unit, I heard that the soldiers were shooting one another. They wanted to overthrow the government. We went to the base to assist them but their officers in the army, during the attempted coup d'etat of Brig Jamane, we were shot at, we couldn't get inside, but if there was a way of removing Brig Gqozo, we were prepared to do anything to help anyone who was saying that Brig Gqozo be removed, because to us he was a monster, he was the worst monster, and I was even there when the people were being shot at the stadium, innocent people, and even the soldiers began to shoot one another. The previous night as we were given the briefing at the stadium there was no sign that there would be a shooting. We got a surprise when we saw people being shot at. That is when the dissatisfaction started. I did not like him at all, because even when we went to his office, we used to fight with words and I asked him how could he kill people that instead of telling the people. When we went to the state house the following day he was not there, he had run away. The only people who came were people like Zamtus, Titus and Smarts Ngonyama.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Commissioner, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose. Any questions Mr Nompozolo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nkwenkwe, at the time you and the other group of people, you went to Brig Gqozo’s place or palace, you went there to look for Mr Nqoya, am I correct?

MR NKWENKWE: We did not go there to look for Mr Nqoya, but we made mention to Brig Gqozo that we had some information that Mr Nqoya was there and we also wanted him to go there to the college. The police wanted to be addressed by Brig Gqozo, that is what we told him. That is what he totally refused, he did not want to go to the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I must have misunderstood your evidence. I understood your evidence to be that Nqoya, there was a group of people who were sent to look for Nqoya at Mr Gqozo’s place and they came back saying that they couldn't find him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no. no. that's not the evidence. The evidence was that after a number of delegations had been sent to look for this commissioner, unsuccessfully. At one point this witness was a member of a delegation that was also sent to look for the commissioner. They also didn't get him. At some later stage they were delegated further to go and call Brig Gqozo to come and address the police in the college and that is how they went to wherever Brig Gqozo was living at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you. Anyway, be that as it may, there at the college, on your evidence as a whole, there is nothing which suggests that there was a discussion that Brig Gqozo should step down. Am I correct?

MR NKWENKWE: That was not mentioned, that is Brig Gqozo stepping down because we were also afraid because that information would be had by the people who were close to Gqozo and we would be arrested. We were just calling him but if he had gone to the college he wouldn't be able to get out again because we did not want to include that in our agenda, that is the overthrowing of Brig Gqozo, we did not want that to be included in our agenda.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And secondly before you went to the college you never met Insp Mfene. Am I correct? That is on the 22nd.

MR NKWENKWE: Myself, I'm going to speak about myself, I met with Insp Mfene many times, but we were not meeting to discuss about what was going to happen at the college because we were working at different places. As a person who was staying at Nqushwa, I would go via his place and ask him about anything or what is happening, and then he would tell me that there is a meeting on the 22nd and then he would say - then we would meet at the meeting on the 22nd. I knew very well that on that particular day, the 22nd that is, something was going to happen because I knew very well that the masses on the ground were very dissatisfied with Gqozo’s rule. We had our own hidden agenda. Even if Gen Nqoya didn't summon us, sergeants would go there because that meeting was not called for sergeants and we knew that the sergeants would go there and disrupt the meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where was this meeting, oh I'm sorry. Did you and Mfene and others ever discuss the question of Brig Gqozo stepping down?

MR NKWENKWE: No, we never discussed that but we knew that something was going to happen because that was towards the 27th of April, that is the voting or the elections, but the people were continuously being killed by the ADM and we knew very well that we would not be able to vote in that area. We did not vote, we were also interested in voting but only the National Party people were voting. We did all that underground, we wouldn't stand up and tell everyone about it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So am I correct to say there was no common purpose between you and Mfene and others that on that day Brig Gqozo should step down?

MR NKWENKWE: Some of us knew that Brig Gqozo should step down on that particular day, but we couldn't tell everybody. First of all, Gen Nqoya had bodyguards, people like Muket and such in line. The information would leak and get to Brig Gqozo’s ears via people like Nqoya but I myself knew very well that on that particular day, he was supposed to step down and we were even prepared to die.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was the plan that you had for Brig Gqozo to step down?

MR NKWENKWE: Gen Nqoya did not come back, that is when we took a decision that we should go straight to Brig Gqozo, but our route would go via the soldiers who were safeguarding him.

We managed to talk to the soldiers after they had been to the college telling us that they were sent by Brig Gqozo to inspect, or to see or to check what was happening at the college. I don't know whether that has answered your question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Not really. What I want to know, there at the college, did you have plans of how to topple Brig Gqozo?

MR NKWENKWE: I can say myself when we were going to Brig Gqozo’s place - not at the college, there was no plan at the college, but we knew that if we can get a person who is close to him, a person like Gen Nqoya we would get access to Brig Gqozo, that is why I had to be included in the delegation that was going to Brig Gqozo’s place. We were heavily armed because his bodyguards were there. If he had caused some problems we would even shoot him, Brig Gqozo that is.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would I be correct to assume that the person who had intentions to shoot Brig Gqozo should he misbehave or should he not adhere to your request, it was you yourself. You did not discuss that with other members of your group.

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, that was myself.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I am saying only yourself.

MR NKWENKWE: It was myself. I'm the one who had told himself that I was going to shoot him if he happened to misbehave when we tell him to go and address the police at the college. I had told myself that because my brother was killed by his ADM in Pedi.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now let's go to another aspect. Do you know Capt Mondo?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, I know him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At the time he was with the unit logistics. Are you aware of that?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, he is still working there even now.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to him you and one Peteni and others, you actually went to logistics and you forcefully took Col Wuso out of logistics, the time could have been about 3 o'clock on the 22nd of March 1994. Were you there?

MR NKWENKWE: No, I was not there in that delegation who went to fetch Col Wuso.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, are you aware that there was a delegation which went to fetch Col Wuso?

MR NKWENKWE: That is possible, that could be possible because some police were sent to go and fetch other police and others were coming voluntarily. An example, there was a bus that left from Umtanzani to fetch the other policemen and when it came back it was full. I am not sure whether they did go to Col Wuso but I was not part of that delegation who went to fetch the people at logistics.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But according to him you were there.

MR NKWENKWE: No, I don't remember myself going there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Are you aware that Col Wuso was taken at gun-point from his office to the police college?

MR NKWENKWE: I cannot dispute that he was taken at gun-point, I can also dispute because I was not present, I was not there. The person who would be in a better position to answer that question perhaps is Peteni because they allege that he was also there, but I was not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, what was the last time when the officers came to the police college?

MR NKWENKWE: I think, if my memory serves me well, the officers were coming in even towards the early hours of the morning. Some were woken up in their houses. It was not only the officers, even the policemen they were still coming in, there were still members, I won't refer to them as officers, there were still members who were still coming in towards the early hours of the morning. Others were coming from places like Whittlesea, even at about 4 in the morning they were still coming in.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have mentioned that some of the officers were taken from their homes. Can you still recall who were those?

MR NKWENKWE: The person that I remember very well that when he came in the morning, that's what I heard actually, it is Gen Nqoya. I don't know whether he was fetched from his house or his wife was taken from the house, but there were people who were taken from their houses. If the others were not there their families would be taken and the example, Gen Nqoya was not there but his family was taken and I am so thankful to what was done by the soldiers because I heard that the soldiers are the ones who caught him, he was with his bodyguards. It means that there was a great influence because we were one with the soldiers because, at the time when we went to those soldiers at the base, I forgot to mention that in the evening at about 9 and 10 we went to the army base to tell them that if they happen to see Gen Nqoya they should catch him because we wanted him to go to the college. Then, meaning they met him on the way, I don't know where did they get him, but they brought him along. I am certain that some officers were fetched from their houses. I'm not sure whether Gen Nqoya when they found him, he was in the military complex or in the state house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, when the officers were first from their homes, do you know who gave that instruction?

MR NKWENKWE: There was only one instruction. Even on that day I gave out some orders. I would give orders if I knew that there were some other police who were not there. For an example, in Adoni's case when his name was mentioned there in the hall, I sent the police to go and fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now I understand that this was announced over the radio, that is radio control, that the police should go to the college. Why was it necessary for you to send the policemen to fetch Superintendent Adoni?

MR NKWENKWE: It could have happened that Superintendent Adoni could not get the message that the police were needed. I want to explain that our officers, even now, they don't have the two-way radios, those that are used for communication with the control. It might have been that he did not get the message and even those that were fetched from their houses, they did not get the message, so at that time, as we wanted everyone to come, we wanted all the police to be included, to be a part, so that Brig Gqozo could see that we were all one, but it was not important how to get the police to be gathered in one place. I saw Mr Nqoya pointed with guns, I saw him coming in because he is the one who left the place at about 11 promising to come back, but he did not come back.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let's talk about Adoni. Why did you say Adoni should be fetched by other policemen?

MR NKWENKWE: They said this, I mentioned this before, that the police officers they do not have the radios, not Adoni specifically but all the police officers did not have the radios. Each and every police was supposed to be there. We were obliged to go and fetch him. Adoni's name was mentioned, I think he was at the finance department if I'm not mistaken, or at the inspectorate office, there was a maladministration of funds as these problems were being raised and for example Brig Kondo mentioned that he found a cheque in his drawer, there were so many problems that were being discussed, he told us that he found a cheque of about R88 000 and he cashed that cheque and he used that money. We had a proof that Brig Gqozo had stepped down but we wanted him to go the following day to the stadium and address the masses.

MR NOMPOZOLO: During the night or early hours of the evening you were aware that officers had been fetched from their offices. Am I correct?

MR NKWENKWE: You mean at their houses, or their offices? I do not understand the question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: From their offices. That is early evening of the 22nd.

MR NKWENKWE: As far as I know I do not remember that there would be any officer in the evening because it was after 4. If they were there as we were coming in the commissioner's office, the one that we used to refer it as a glass house, the one that is next to the legislature, there was no one. We went across towards the parliament and we checked the offices, there was no one. I don't know what is it that they were looking for or what is it that they were doing at the offices in the evening, those whom are said to be taken from the offices in the evening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now my instructions are that a number of officers were taken from their offices forcefully, amongst others was one Wuso, who, on arrival at the college, the armoury keys were demanded from him.

MR NKWENKWE: It might have happened that Col Wuso was taken from his office before 4 o'clock or perhaps after 4. It was so unfortunate that he would be still in the office after 4. I remember very well. I'm the one who forced him to give up the keys and he told us that Col Mema had the keys and I told him that if he does not give us the keys, all of us were going to die because the soldiers had been there. We wanted the police to be armed so that we don't die unarmed when the soldiers come. We were also responsible for their safety.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you there when Col Wuso was brought into the hall?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, I was present, I saw him coming in.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you still recall how many soldiers, how many police brought him?

MR NKWENKWE: Because I was inside and that hall had doors just in the middle, the police would just come with a person. Some people were using a door that was on the western side of the hall. As they were coming in, the police would come and stand at the door and the officer would see where the other officers were and then he would just go there and join his colleagues. I cannot remember how many police were there because the police would just stand at the door and the people were a bit squashed there because it was full but they would try and open space for a person who was coming in, to come in, but I did not see how many police were in his company and I did not even see whether he was pointed at with guns. It is also possible.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Inside the hall there were police who were armed with R5's, R4's and some side arms, is that correct?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, there were police who were armed, because we said that each and every policeman who was there should be armed, whether it was a male or a female, because we were afraid of South African Defence Force.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And there inside the hall, my instructions are that you were busy giving the microphone to the policemen, to the officers in fact, asking the officers to give their service. Did that happen?

MR NKWENKWE: I do not understand this question. You mean I gave the other officers the microphones, to do what?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Saying that they must give out their service on the mike to the public, or to the police who were there.

MR NKWENKWE: I remember very well, Sir. What happened was this. The microphone, I was not just giving it to any officer that was on the podium, it was only the officers whose name was mentioned, a person like Brig Kondo, those who were affected, who's names were on the list of the people who were squandering monies and then he mentioned officers and then whoever he mentioned there would be given a mike and to answer for himself. People like Brig Lando admitted that he found a cheque in his drawer and Brig Kondo. They did not even ask what those cheques were for. Someone took a cheque of about R80 000 and cashed it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And, those actions of giving people mikes and saying that they must state how much they have misappropriated, is that politically motivated?

MR NKWENKWE: I can say yes, I can say no, I am going to answer this like this. As we were sitting there we had already achieved our political objective because Brig Gqozo had already stepped down, but those were the matters that came up like Capt Makubelu's case was not politically motivated but that was the pain that was endured by the people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, about 8 o'clock or so on the 22nd, you already knew that Brig Gqozo had resigned. Why was it necessary for you to give an order that other officers must be fetched from their houses and to humiliate them by saying that they must give out their service?

MR NKWENKWE: Some of the things were just happening so fast because a person whose name was mentioned, we would just give that particular person a mike to answer for himself. The most important thing, for us to stay there for the night. We were prepared to go to the stadium with Brig Gqozo to address the people, but as time went on there were other issues that came about.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And those issues were issues which were not politically related, which had nothing to do with Brig Gqozo stepping down. Am I correct?

MR NKWENKWE: As the police had their own grievances and it was difficult for them to address, or to voice out those grievances to the management, even in the memorandum that we drafted it was not mentioned, nothing was mentioned about overthrowing Gqozo, the main objective was already achieved and the other things were also problematic things like squandering of monies, those were the things that were coming up from the people, but the main objective was already achieved. Those were just the things that were coming up as we were sitting there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And all those who have misappropriate funds there were other forums to attend to those problems, inter alia a departmental inquiry, the court of law and all those. It was not for that forum to address those. Am I correct?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes you are telling the truth, Sir, but when an investigative unit was established the one that would be used to investigate those monies, things like the cheques, R134 000 that Gen Nqoya confessed about, as we thought that he squandered something like R80 000, he told us that we had a wrong figure, he had squandered something like R134 000, there was a unit that was established to investigate that, not a forum, but Gen Nqoya disbanded that unit and then he took Gen Tlela to Zone 6, who else was going to investigate that?

He took policemen like Xolani, he disbanded them because he knew that he was going to be implicated through the investigation and then we saw that forum as the opportunity to get those people to account because even Attorney-General Jurgens as he came he said the order that was from the Regional Court in Zwelitsha was that those people should be dealt with within the departments but it was difficult for him to implement that because Gen Nqoya is implicated and each time they try to do a kick start but Gen Nqoya will always disrupt that process, so it was difficult for them to get that money back by trying to deduct that from their salaries because each time a unit is established to investigate those monies he just disbands that therefore we saw that forum as the best opportunity for us to discuss such issues because we had time there where they had to be asked to account and that was successful because they did account and that was successful because they did account. We did not even know that Brig Gqozo got some monies. We got a surprise on that particular day because we only knew Gen Nqoya as a person who had squandered money. Brig Kondo, I beg your pardon, not Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you wanted Brig Gqozo to step down, were you hoping that the lives and the welfare of the Ciskei police would be better?

MR NKWENKWE: No. The main aim, or the most important thing was to get the people of Ciskei to vote because he has associated himself with IFP and Bophuthatswana. We were not looking for a better life there, but we just wanted the people from Ciskei to be able to vote because we knew that under Brig Gqozo’s regime they would not vote. Even the police whose houses were burned down and the soldiers, some soldiers had moved away from their houses, they went to stay in the army, we did not want to live in luxury, but what we had in mind was that we want to step aside so that the people could go straight to Gqozo but they were shot at the stadium and we were faced with the soldiers now, but they came to our side ultimately and we discussed them, we convinced them, we told them that their houses were being burned down and they were also affected by this problem.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, if then you were not hoping that the welfare of the police and the lives of the police would be better, I wish to refer you to section 9 sub-section 4 of your application, it reads as follows :

Did you say that when you were making your application?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you still recall who are the officers who are taken hostage?

MR NKWENKWE: There was quite a large number of officers but I can remember a few of them, people like Col Adoni, I saw him there on that particular night. Gen Nqoya. It was quite a large number. Capt Makwethu was also there because his matter was very serious concerning the money squandering.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this Captain's name? Say again.

MR NKWENKWE: Capt Makwethu.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he alleged to have misappropriated the funds of the junior officers in the widows and orphans fund and in the sports club?

MR NKWENKWE: I'm not sure which funds he misappropriated but I heard that he misappropriated funds because he was working in the finance department.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that it may be that some of the information which was given there at the college about the misappropriation of funds was not an accurate one? Number 2 -maybe somebody just had malice. Is that correct?

MR NKWENKWE: That might be possible but that might not be so because according to my knowledge there were cases that were going on whereby Capt Makwethu and Capt Sawuti were called in Zwelitsha court, so I don't know the outcome of those cases and there's no person who will just out of the blue say a certain person has misappropriated money and there would be a case. If there is a case it is possible that a person might have done that until he is proven not guilty in a court of law.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, exactly. Now why were those people held hostage if the allegation was that they have misappropriated funds? Why were they not taken straight to Bisho police station which was not far from where you were?

MR NKWENKWE: According to my knowledge even though I am not quite sure, I think that the following day they were taken to Bisho police station, but I'm not sure about that because I was not part of the people who escorted them but there was something saying that they will have to be taken to Bisho police station, I don't know what happened about that. Maybe they were taken that same night or not. Maybe they are the ones who will tell us whether they were taken to Bisho police station or not, so I'm not sure whether they were taken there or not but there was a word saying that they must be taken to Bisho police station and I could not be focusing on people who were misappropriating funds because I was focused on whether Gqozo had really resigned or not because I was also monitoring the South African Defence Force who were standing where the people were shot. I would drive by their area and then come back, so I don't know what was happening in the hall when I was not there. Maybe they were taken there or not, I'm not sure.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you'll agree with me Mr Nkwenkwe that it was a simple thing that a person who has misappropriated funds should have been taken, if he's taken from his house or from his office, should have been taken straight to the police station. There was no reason why the person was taken to Bisho police college.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo how does that, how is it relevant to this amnesty application, this question of the misappropriation of funds and what happened to people who were alleged to have done so and others who had confessed to having done so etc, how does it come into this application actually?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It comes Mr Chairperson because that is the reason why they were held hostage and what we are saying in opposing the application is that it was not a politically motivated action by the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was not politically motivated, the entire action or just the action in regard to people who were allegedly involved in a misappropriation of funds or what? What is the basis of your position, to be precise?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is that they were held hostage and the reason why they were held as hostages is because it was alleged that they have misappropriated funds.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your case that is not politically motivated?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, the misappropriation of funds. It's not politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the actions of the junior officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: By holding them hostage.

CHAIRPERSON: In trying to resolve this question around what happened to their money? You say that's not politically motivated?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes that's what we are saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, go ahead.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you. Now, it was a simple question Mr Nkwenkwe of the police whether junior or senior, arresting a policeman from his house or from his office. Take him straight to the police station and not to hold a person hostage at Bisho police college, when a person has misappropriated funds. is it not like that?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, it might be so. According to the law when you arrest a person you are not supposed to take him to the police college. I would not arrest a person on the street and take him to this hall, I'm supposed to take him to the police station, but concerning the issues that arose on that particular day, maybe they were asked what they had done with the money or what the decision from court was because I'm saying that I used to go outside and check the surroundings of the college and went to the soldiers so I can't answer that question. It might be possible that they were asked, I don't know. Maybe they would be able to tell us that I was given a microphone to tell what happened about the money or what the court decision was or whether they were taken to the police station after that. I don't know, because it might be possible that they were taken to the police college and then they were taken to the Bisho police station, I don't know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On your own evidence you have testified that the officers were held hostage. For how long did that last? From what time did you notice them held hostage until what time?

MR NKWENKWE: The officers, I don't want to use the word officers, I just want to say the police. The police that were there, that I found there when I arrived after 11, they were released the following day in the morning when we were going to the stadium, the following day. Irrespective of whether they were officers or not, everybody was released the following day but there are people that I know that they wanted to go to Simms and Oosthuizen and then the people did not want them to leave and they were told that they were not going to leave, those are the people that I can still remember. Others like Capt Makwethu, Sawuti, I don't remember them asking to leave and then being refused permission to leave. I don't know why they did not ask to leave. Maybe they saw that Simms and Oosthuizen were refused permission so they decided to ask for permission to leave, I don't know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When the officers or, when those policemen were questioned by you and others about the misappropriation of funds, what were you hoping to achieve, what was the political motive behind that?

MR NKWENKWE: The main objective about this funds issue was corruption because there was a lot of corruption in the Ciskei because when the unit was implemented to investigate about this corruption, Gen Nqoya disbanded that unit because it was investigating corruption. So, the reason why they were asked in the college, it is because issues came up. There were issues which came up because - those things which were coming up along this meeting that was not part and parcel of our objective. Our objective was to bring back the stability in the Ciskei, but because the night was long, things would come up, as I've already said.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you hoping that if you've removed Brig Gqozo and the new government comes to place, were you hoping that the new government would do away with corruption and all that?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, we were hoping that and we hoped that in Ciskei people were going to vote and Ciskei would be back to South Africa peacefully without any violence. We were hoping that the new government, as people - I was born in 1967, I didn't vote before. I wanted to vote because there were only National Party people who were voting and my brother was killed by the ADM and I would be arrested and then beaten up by the security forces of Ciskei, so we were hoping that the new government would help us in those problems and they would help people from Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were aware at that time that Ciskei had already pulled out of Cossap, that is concerned group of South Africa, something like that, that is where there was Inkatha, where there was Bophuthatswana, where there was - you were aware that they have pulled out of that group already and they had, the Ciskei had identified itself with the greater South Africa in terms of preparing for the elections, not so?

MR NKWENKWE: I was not aware of that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: If you were not aware of that, you were aware that the meeting was called to give a briefing to the police about the elections, or their rule on the elections, not so?

MR NKWENKWE: I don't know why the meeting was called. The warrant officers were the ones who were called to the meeting. We as such, we were not called to that meeting, I did not know why they were called there. It was the first time that I found out that, when I arrived in the hall, they were told about the elections and when they arrived there they were addressed by other warrant officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, when you were in the meeting, somebody addressed the meeting about the election, is that correct?

MR NKWENKWE: I was not there at the time, I arrived when they said that Gen Nqoya had said that all the police had to be called to that meeting. We waited for him to hear why he was calling all the police and then he did not come back until the next morning.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, I wish us to revisit section 9 sub-section 1, where it is said Acts or omissions or offences. There you have said 50 counts of - I'm sorry, I'm sorry Chair, I've referred to the wrong one. There you have said "Hostage taking, mutiny, kidnapping, and unlawful excess to armoury. It's supposed to be access, I think. Now did you say that on your application?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission who was kidnapped?

MR NKWENKWE: The people who were kidnapped for example are the people like Gen Nqoya and the officers who were there because some of them went there voluntarily and some of them were taken from their houses and some of them were taken on the way, according to information I got from the police that I instructed, because I would ask them what was happening about the police and they would say that we have brought Adoni with us. Those are the people who were kidnapped. They were kidnapped according to my instruction because I had given out an instruction for them to go and take the police. That is what I'm asking amnesty for, because when this was happening whatever that happened because of my actions, I would like to ask for amnesty or for forgiveness. Those were not my intentions but before we could reach Brig Gqozo we had to unite as the police so that Brig Gqozo can see that we are all united, we are doing this collectively, that is why we sent police to take or to bring those who were not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But by the time Adoni was fetched from his house Brig Gqozo, according to you, had already resigned, or had already informed you that he had resigned or stood down.

MR NKWENKWE: Even though he told us that he had resigned we didn't want any police to go to Brig Gqozo secretly to regroup with him so that he can arrest people at a later stage who had done this at the college. We wanted Brig Gqozo to be alone, not to have anybody to help him, and we managed to do that because we had managed to be united with the soldiers who were helping Brig Gqozo so we were forcing the police to help us whether you liked it or not. That is why we kept them hostage and that is why we gave out instructions to take them in their houses forcefully. If they would find a wife and children, if that police was not there, we would take the wife and children and then the police would come and take his family, that is the instruction I gave to the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Then if that was the case, why then on their arrival you did not tell them that look we are forcing you to be part of us, to force Brig Gqozo to step down. Why do you ask them about the monies and the promotions and all that?

MR NKWENKWE: That question is not clear to me. We would not ask promotion issues to Adoni. The person who was asked about this was Gen Nqoya, promotions like the one of Capt Makubelu because he re-employed him and gave him his rank even though he was convicted, for example the constables who had 7 years service and they were still constables, they were supposed to be sergeants and Gen Nqoya would just say everything will be okay, and then we told him that we did not care about that, Gqozo has resigned and we are going to be part of South Africa, so we didn't care about him because he had misused the money and he had already confessed that he misused a certain money.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but my question is, some of the officers amongst others, Makwethu, Adoni, Dolweni, Gqibithole, and others were asked about the misappropriation of funds. If the objective was political why didn't you say "guys, we've called you here, we've kidnapped you for the purposes of us or of you joining us in what we want to achieve, that is forcing Brig Gqozo to step down." Why did you ask them about the misappropriation of funds?

MR NKWENKWE: According to my perception we took them as thieves. They were supposed to be taken to prison because they were corrupt so there was no need to tell them that we wanted Brig Gqozo to resign. When Brig Gqozo had resigned we wanted them to be in prison because we'd not be part of the new South Africa with thieves, because they would corrupt our new government that we wanted to vote on the 27th of April. Those are the issues that came up when we were in that meeting. That is why today I'm here asking for amnesty for those issues, or for what I have done or for what the police have done to them, those who had pointed them with guns and those who had slapped them, if they were slapped, because instructions were coming from me sometimes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now what caused you people to kidnap them instead of approaching them and saying "look, we want you to join us in Bisho, we've got this plan". Why would you kidnap them, point them with firearms, traumatise them and their families?

MR NKWENKWE: As the person who was not present when they were taken from their homes or offices, I don't know what their reaction was, I don't know how they were approached by these police, but what was important at the time, we wanted them there in the hall, so I don't know how they were approached or what happened, I don't know what resulted to them being pointed with guns, I can't answer for that but what I know is that the police were armed on that day, so it might be possible for them to be pointed by guns, maybe some of them are lying, I don't know, maybe they were assaulted, I don't know, because there were groups that went to fetch them. The people who went to fetch them can be the ones who would answer the question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did it come to your knowledge that they were kidnapped?

MR NKWENKWE: It came to my knowledge in the morning that some of them were pointed by firearms. In the morning when we would get a report that we would find such and such a person and then we would ask how did you approach this person and they would say that no, he refused to come with them so they had to take such actions. So that is why today, I'm asking for forgiveness that they were taken in such ways. Maybe some of them were taken by pyjamas, if there was such a person who was taken by pyjamas because those police were instructed by me sometimes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that when they were taken hostage at Bisho police college hall they were never asked not even one question which was politically related?

MR NKWENKWE: How could we ask them about political issues because there was nothing involving them with political issues, but we wanted them to be on our side because we wanted Gqozo to see that all the police are on our side, on our objective to remove Gqozo because if you would reach Brig Gqozo you had to go via the officers. So as a junior member, it was difficult to even have access to the colonel because you have to via the captain. In the police force you have different steps, but that day we didn't care about that, we wanted all the police in there because they had force numbers and we also had force numbers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that by 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon on the 22nd you had about three quarters of the whole police force in the Ciskei at Bisho police college?

MR NKWENKWE: Mostly it was the junior police, the officers were the ones who were fetched. I can agree with you that three quarters of the junior police were there, not the officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And would you then agree with me that with that number of policemen, of junior policemen, it was impossible for senior policemen or senior officers, to have arrested the junior officers who were there in the hall? It would be impractical for them to arrest you people there?

MR NKWENKWE: The senior officers as the people who are close to the president or to the leader of Ciskei, they would be able to go to Brig Gqozo and tell him that they were on his side. Maybe the South African Police would be sent because they were just near, they were in King William's Town. Police from King William’s Town would be taken. We as Ciskeian police were very few as compared to the South African police because they would call police from Stutterheim, King William's Town and East London and we wanted even the police from South Africa, if they would be asked to come and arrest us, they would see that officers were involved in this, even though we didn't tell the officers, the informants that is.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On your application, still on 9 sub-section 4, at page 3 you say:

Now, the impression I get from that is that the officers were first taken as hostages and then all the other things followed. Am I correct in my interpretation?

MR NKWENKWE: The officers and their hostage issue and issues that followed, they were parallel to each other because we were not going to be able to take officers as hostages and then on the other side Gqozo was mobilising that this should be disrupted. We wanted this to be hand in hand because you cannot focus on one issue, so they were going hand in hand. So these things were parallel to each other, they were going hand in hand. Yes indeed officers were taken hostage, but at the end we had achieved our objective, Gqozo resigned. So it depends on that particular officer, what time he had arrived in the hall. Even those who didn't arrive we took them hostage because we went to their houses to fetch them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that it was never communicated to Brig Gqozo that the officers were held hostage?

MR NKWENKWE: He knows about that he can even come to this Commission, but I as the person who was part of that delegation, we had told him that all the police were involved in this. When I am referring to a police, I'm talking to a person with a force number who was trained as a police. We told him that all the police had gathered in the college, they want to see him. They wanted him to go there to address the police. Brig Gqozo is aware of that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, I don't think you understood my question. It was never communicated to Brig Gqozo that officers of the then Ciskeian police, were held hostages. Am I correct? So that he can step down.

MR NKWENKWE: What I'm saying is, Sir, we wouldn't be able to say to Brig Gqozo, such and such people are there as hostages. It might have been that we had told him but I think that he could see that we had told the soldiers at the gate to go to their camp, so he could see what was happening because when we arrived he told us that the police and the soldiers were against him. He had phoned Pik Botha, so he knows that when the junior officers had overthrown, he knew what was happening, because he took power by overthrowing, so he was aware that there were people who were taken hostage when this was happening., so we took the police to Radio Ciskei because he would go to the - Radio Ciskei announced that the government was being overthrown and people's property would be burned down, and people would be killed. We didn't want that to happen. We wanted this to happen in a clean way, so there was no need to tell him that there were people who were kept there as hostages. He is a military personnel so he knows when an overthrowing of government is happening there are people who are taken as hostages. We had told him that all the police are in the college, they want to see him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, the holding of the police hostage, that is the officers as hostage, and if that was not communicated to Brig Gqozo, how were you hoping to achieve your objective? How was it going to assist you holding them as hostage, if that was not communicated to Brig Gqozo, the person who is supposed to step down?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say that Gqozo volunteered before they could say anything? He volunteered to say "look chaps I've gone, I'm giving up" so there was not dispute there. It seemed as if by the time that they got there Gqozo had already decided that he's going to get out. That's exactly what he told them before they could say anything.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. That may be the case but the point here is that it was never their intention to inform Brig Gqozo that "we are holding people hostage, as long as you don't resign, or as long as you don't step down we are not going to release them." What he was saying, the hostage, at the end of the day, was not related to their objective they were seeking.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I understand your argument, I don't understand your question though. As I understand the evidence, Gqozo told them he'd stepped down, so why - you're not going to argue with him and say "look we have hostages" he's already said he's stepped down. So there was no need to exert pressure on him to step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes but when they went there, they didn't go to Gqozo to say this is what they are doing, they went there to say he must step down, they didn't say "look, there are people who depend on you stepping down and those people, we are holding them hostage", that is my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that's a different question. That question relates to what they had in mind when they went there. It doesn't relate to what happened when they got there because what happened when they got there is quite clear. Gqozo had resigned already so I mean there was no need to discuss hostages.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let me rephrase it. Thank you Mr Chair. Now, is it correct that when you went to Brig Gqozo you did not go to him to say "look, resign because we've got people who we are holding hostage". You went there to ask him to resign or to step down because you didn't want him and to go and address the police at the college?

MR NKWENKWE: When we went to Brig Gqozo, we didn't want him to know that he was overthrown. When we arrived he had already known that, that is why we thought that maybe Gen Nqoya told him that the police were kept as hostages. We didn't go there to tell him that we had kept people as hostages, we wanted him to go to the college and then when he arrived in the college we would tell him that he was not going to leave there as the officers were there. We would call the media and we would tell him to resign and tell the people that he had resigned. Luckily for us when we arrived there he said that we had disappointed him, he has given up, he had just phoned Pik Botha and at the time when his bodyguards had left, maybe he had asked them where they were going and maybe they told him that the police told them to go to the base so he knew that things were bad.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Ms Collett?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: Just one or two thank you Mr Chairman. Do you confirm then, Sir, that there

were certain police officers inter alia Commissioner Nqoya that were kept against their will at the police college and deprived of their liberty?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes I do confirm that because the person that was kept there against his will, he also kept there against our will because he had told us that he was going to come back. The people were kept hostages there by Gen Nqoya is ourselves because he had told us that he was going to come back.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that Gen Nqoya has instituted civil proceedings against you and others for the deprivation of his liberty, and claimed damages?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, I do confirm that. Even if I had money I would lay a civil claim against Gen Nqoya because he had kept me waiting there at the college but I don't have enough money to do that, but he has done that because he has money and he has misused money, about R134 000 because that's what he confessed.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that your political object - or do I understand your political objective to have been that you wished Brig Gqozo to step down and that is why all the people should be at the police college?

MR NKWENKWE: That was our main objective and indeed that happened, he has resigned. I'm very happy today because I'm under my new president Thabo Mbeki. If we didn't remove Brig Gqozo that day, I am sure that blood would be shed here in Ciskei because he was going to tell us to shoot the masses.

MS COLLETT: And at the time that Brig Gqozo informed you that he had stepped down, Commissioner Nqoya had not yet been brought to the police at the college.

MR NKWENKWE: We didn't know where he was, we were looking for him because he was a General, he was leading the Ciskeian police, so it was possible for him to communicate with the South African police to come and disrupt us in the hall. The South African defence force and the South African police would deal with us. The South African defence force would deal with the army, and then the police would deal with us so there would be chaos. So we were scared that he would go to South Africa and tell what we had done, that is why we were looking for him all over after he had told us that we should wait for him, he would be back, according to what the people who were there said.

MS COLLETT: Just give me a simple answer please, do you confirm that by the time Brig Gqozo told you that he'd stepped down, Comm Nqoya as yet was not at the police college?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, he was not yet there, since he had left us at about 11 o'clock saying that he was going to have a meeting with Brig Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: And do you confirm that it was only about 9 o'clock that night that he was actually brought to the police college?

MR NKWENKWE: He did not arrive at 9, he arrived in the morning and according to the information I got he was brought by the soldiers. I don't know where they met him, maybe they were together with the police, but I heard that he was brought by soldiers. He is making a mistake if he is saying that he arrived at 9 in the evening. He arrived in the early hours of the morning.

MS COLLETT: My instructions are that he was brought in the evening.

MR NKWENKWE: That is why I am saying maybe he might be making a mistake. Maybe he was scared, he didn't even notice what time it was.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that before Comm Nqoya was brought to the police, his wife and daughter were there?

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, I do confirm that because when they didn't find him, we said that if he was not there, they must take the wife and children because he's the person that we were scared of, he would tell South Africa that we had gathered there.

MS COLLETT: But South Africa already knew that you had gathered there. Brig Gqozo already knew, he told you that much.

MR NKWENKWE: Yes, he already knew because he had said to me he stopped South African defence force, they were standing next to the stadium and I could see them, so it is obvious that South Africa was aware, but we were scared of the police because if the soldiers were supposed to deal with the other soldiers, and then if the police were supposed to deal with the other police, we wanted Nqoya to be there so that we could all die if we were going to be shot.

MS COLLETT: You see I want to put it to you that the only reason that you took Nqoya hostage on that evening was because you wanted to hold a kangaroo court and make him answer to certain allegations.

MR NKWENKWE: I cannot dispute that or I cannot be against that because according to the issues that came up, he can analyse that and say that it was a kangaroo court, but we were gathering there whether it was legal or illegal, but we were gathering there.

MS COLLETT: I put it to you that the hostage taking of Comm Nqoya had nothing whatsoever to do with the alleged political motive of having Brig Gqozo step down because he had already stepped down at the time Nqoya was taken to the college.

MR NKWENKWE: What I want to explain all this is that if there is a problem the senior officers are the first people to be taken there because you had to deal with those in senior positions so that they cannot mobilise against you. So Nqoya was one of the senior officers. We wanted to take him first so that the leader, Gqozo, the one that was used to scare us, could see that things were very bad. Even if Gqozo would change his mind during the night, we knew that when Nqoya was amongst us Gqozo had no chance to do anything else because he was very close to Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: And I want to put it further to you that the interim administration in the form of Goosen, Jurgens and Finqa had already visited with you that evening. You would have been well aware of the fact that everything had been legitimately done, that Gqozo had legitimately stood down and that Pretoria knew about it.

MR NKWENKWE: Yes everything was legitimately done. Goosen and Jurgens were all there, but I'm still saying that we wanted this to be seen as having blessings of Gen Noqya who was very close to Brig Gqozo, irrespective of what time they arrived there. Even when Jurgens arrived in the morning he saw Gen Noqya there.

MS COLLETT: And I want to put it to you that even Jurgens, Finqa and Goosen who were the interim administration, asked you to disperse. There was absolutely no logical reason for you to have continued with the action that you did at that police college on that evening. Once Gqozo had stepped down, which was supposed to have been your main objective.

MR NKWENKWE: We wouldn't be able to disperse on that particular night, the agreement that we had with Brig Gqozo was that he was going to address the masses the following day in the morning at the stadium, the civil servants and the community at large, so we wanted to make sure that we were together and then we would go there to the stadium as one. There was a need to get Nqoya so that he can be together with us when we were going to the stadium and indeed that did happen.

MS COLLETT: Finally I want to put it to you that you are retrospectively trying to justify an absolutely unlawful action which was not politically motivated at that stage, in keeping inter alia Comm Noqya hostage the entire evening.

MR NKWENKWE: I can't do otherwise, I have to justify why Nqoya had to be there. Moreover, Nqoya himself, you are forgetting that I have already said before, that he promised the police that he was going to come back to us, that was at 11 o'clock, even though he came back the following day. So, as he was the person who had told us that he was going to meet with Brig Gqozo, he was supposed to come back and report to us and he did not do that, so we had to look for him all over, then we did find him eventually.

MS COLLETT: I finally want to put it to you that Comm Nqoya at no stage on the 22nd said that he was going to come back to the college after he'd been there initially. In fact he said he was not coming back, he had nothing further to discuss with you people.

MR NKWENKWE: Insp Mfene who gave testimony yesterday, if you had put that to him, he would have answered you but I will answer for him because he is my colleague and he was my colleague on that particular day. I was talking to Mfene and he said that Nqoya said that we have to wait for him there. We waited for him. There was no senior officer who would give an order for us to wait for him and then we would have waited for him if he had given us that order. So we waited for him and the police got bored and them some issues came up. We didn't actually want Nqoya, we were not interested in him, we wanted Gqozo, but in order to reach Brig Gqozo you have to go via Nqoya and Nqoya had bodyguards and we took those bodyguards because they were also junior members, we took their firearms and we told them to go inside the hall.

MS COLLETT: But if you didn't want Nqoya and you actually wanted Gqozo, you'd achieved your aim because you got Gqozo before you got Nqoya. You got Gqozo face to face.

MR NKWENKWE: This is like this. In order to get to Brig Gqozo, Nqoya had to gather the police. That was Nqoya's meeting, he is the one who called that meeting, but we went to that meeting with our hidden agenda. That is how we eventually got to Brig Gqozo. But in order for him to know that or to see that the police were against him, we wanted even Nqoya to be together with us. Even when we were in the state house, we told him that we knew that Nqoya was with him in the state house. We wanted him to take him out so that he can be part and parcel of the police and listen when he was addressing us. Those are my direct words to Brig Gqozo and Brig Gqozo said that Nqoya was not there, there were no bodyguards there. So Gen Nqoya's presence in the college was very important so that Brig Gqozo could see that the police were united. Even if we were not going to brief Gen Nqoya saying that we had taken over.

MS COLLETT: But Sir, you've said, you've just testified to the effect that the reason you wanted Nqoya was because you needed Nqoya to get to Gqozo. Yes or no?

MR NKWENKWE: The reason why we wanted Nqoya first was because we wanted to show Brig Gqozo that Nqoya was part and parcel of what was being done by the police. All the officers and all the police members irrespective of being an officer or not, so Nqoya's presence was very important to us so that Gqozo could see that we were all united with a common goal, even though there were different ways for them being there, but we wanted Gqozo to see that he was part and parcel of our group.

MS COLLETT: But you didn't trust Nqoya because you thought that he was big friends with Gqozo.

MR NKWENKWE: We didn't think that he was a close friend of Gqozo, we knew that because he used to have meetings now and then with Brig Gqozo but we wanted him to be present in the hall so that if the South African police would shoot at us they would shoot at all of us with him present. Let's say for argument's sake, if South Africa had arrived, when they would see that our general was there, they would go back, when they would see that Gen Nqoya would be there. We had that hope.

MS COLLETT: So the fact of having Nqoya there really didn't affect what Gqozo thought, because Gqozo would have known when Nqoya's alliance ... (indistinct) because he would have seen him earlier that day. Do you agree?

MR NKWENKWE: No, I don't agree. What I'm saying is, in order for Gqozo to see that the police are all part of this, it was necessary for Gen Nqoya to be there. There was nothing else we wanted to achieve. Irrespective of whether he had resigned, Gqozo had resigned or not, Nqoya was a policemen, he had a

force number, so we wanted all the police with force numbers to be there, even though he was the best, or close friend of Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: You see, I want to put it to you that your actions were unlawful and there's no political justification for what you did on that evening.

MR NKWENKWE: That is your own opinion Ma'am, because today I have voted the second time in democratic South Africa, so that was political. What we were doing was political because Gqozo had resigned from his position and we were looking forward to serving the present government and being loyal to this present government, not Gqozo’s government. The people who are crying today saying that they were pointed with firearms, they are crying because we had overthrown Brig Gqozo, but before we could reach Brig Gqozo we had to deal with them before we could reach him, even Gen Nqoya himself. That is why I am saying today that I'm asking for forgiveness to do all these to them because they were an obstacle for us, before we could reach Brig Gqozo. So I'm asking for forgiveness for all those things that happened. I'm asking them to forgive us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: The panel, anything?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Nkwenkwe, I just want clarity on one matter. Who was the leader of the junior officers that day?

MR NKWENKWE: There was no one we can say was the leader on that particular day but it depended on people or on individuals for example I told myself that I would die on that day, even when I went to Brig Gqozo, I had my R5 with me, but I left it in the car because I had told myself if he was resisting, because we knew that he was a person who did not have respect, he did not care about any other person, I had told myself that I was going to shoot at him. I had a side arm with me, there was nobody who searched us when we went in there. If we wanted to kill him we would have killed him. So what I am trying to say is that we had no leader there but all the people who took part there were doing that voluntarily.

ADV BOSMAN: The reason why I am asking this is Mr Mfene yesterday testified that he was the unofficial leader, but it would appear from your evidence that you didn't consult with him when you gave these orders. You said you gave the orders to people to fetch the officers.

MR NKWENKWE: Because things happened fast, I cannot dispute that Mr Mfene on his side was leader or he was controlling inside the hall because when, for example we had spoken about Capt Sawuti, maybe his name was mentioned in this maladministration of money, I would then address a few men and tell them that they must go out and find this man. If maybe Mfene, it was not his turn to address the people, maybe the microphone was with me, Mfene would talk to a certain group of people and tell them to go and take a certain person. I was regarding myself as a leader in my group. Even when we told the soldiers that they had to join us, I can't say that there was someone who was a leader, but we were doing the same thing, trying to achieve the same goal.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Nothing thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkwenkwe, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for 10 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

NAME: XOLINI TYALI

APPLICATION NO: AM7998/97

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose who is the next witness?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The next witness Mr Chairman is Mr X Tyali. His application is at pages 65 to 71 of the paginated bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose.

XOLINI TYALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Mr Tyali, you are a policeman. Where are you stationed?

MR TYALI: Yes. I am stationed at Zwelitsha.

MR OBOSE: Are you familiar with the events of that date, 22nd March and the 23rd as related by the witnesses before you, applicants before you?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Do you confirm basically what these applicants have said with regard to those incidents, those that you know of?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Just very briefly, did you attend this meeting yourself?

MR TYALI: Yes, I attended the meeting on that day. I was at Tech, I was in class. I was called to leave the students and go to the meeting at the hall. We did as we were told.

MR OBOSE: Could you enter inside the hall or were you outside?

MR TYALI: I was outside the hall. I was sitting under the tree in the shade.

MR OBOSE: Were you able to follow the proceedings?

MR TYALI: Yes, I could follow the procedure because a loud speaker was used.

MR OBOSE: Did you in any way participate in the goings on on that day, or evening?

MR TYALI: Yes, I took part later because it was announced that because Capt Sawuti was implicated or affected, they said anyone who had a key or a car, he must go and fetch Capt Sawuti in his house and I left with Nqinana because he was the one who had a key to a car and I occupied a passenger seat. Commander Toto and ...(indistinct) they drove another car and we went to his house.

MR OBOSE: Roughly what time was this?

MR TYALI: If my memory serves me well, I think it was between 10 and 11 in the night.

MR OBOSE: Was he assaulted, pointed with firearms etc?

MR TYALI: I do not remember seeing him being assaulted. We did not assault him. We did not even point him with guns but what was done to him, we requested his firearm to be with us on our way to the college.

MR OBOSE: When you got to the college, what happened?

MR TYALI: We put him in and he went up to join the other officers who were on the podium and then I remained inside the hall thereafter.

MR OBOSE: How was the mood in the hall when you got back?

MR TYALI: The police were singing freedom songs, there was a large number of policemen, there was noise inside the hall.

MR OBOSE: And in the morning when you got to the hall first, was there already singing or not?

MR TYALI: They were still singing even in the morning.

MR OBOSE: In the morning?

MR TYALI: They were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Mr Nompozolo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Tyali, what was the reason for you and other policemen to fetch Mr Sawuti?

MR TYALI: It was announced through the loudspeaker that anyone with the car keys should go and fetch Serg Sawuti and Serg Nqinana, the one who was with me, had the keys and he knew where Serg Sawuti's house was situated, and we got into the car.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you did not have the keys, you did not know where he stays, why did you have to go and fetch him?

MR TYALI: The reason for me to leave, it is because Nqinana requested me. I actually, I left with him because we were together and he had a key. I was not forced to go with him, but the only thing is that we were always together at that particular time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And why was it necessary for two cars to fetch him?

MR TYALI: The second car that was driven by Serg Kamana followed us. Perhaps they were just interested because we were just on our way to his house, but when we got out of the gate we just saw them following us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you fetched Mr Sawuti did you know that Brig Gqozo had already resigned or stepped down?

MR TYALI: We had heard about that. We heard that Brig Gqozo had stepped down. We got that information from the other police who were in the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you know who gave instructions that Mr Sawuti should be fetched?

MR TYALI: Different people were using this loudspeaker, the microphone, I cannot remember who exactly issued that instruction, but we just heard that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I correct to say you did not know for what purpose was Mr Sawuti fetched?

MR TYALI: As I was outside, sitting outside, we could hear what was being discussed in the hall. The issue was about money squandering and a person who was talking mentioned Serg Sawuti's name and it was said that someone who's got the car keys should go and fetch Serg Sawuti.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So your understanding when you fetched Capt Sawuti was that he must have misappropriated funds?

MR TYALI: It came that way and I was in the car of someone who was sent to do that, to fetch him, that is what I heard. We heard that he was also implicated.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What did come to your mind when you fetched him? Did you want him to account for the money or did you want him to be arrested?

MR TYALI: It is because his name was mentioned and the instruction was issued to go and fetch him so that he could come and answer for himself.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So his presence there according to you, was to answer to the allegations but not to join the broader police forum which was there, for any other purpose other than to answer the allegations?

MR TYALI: As it is already mentioned that the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo, but because it was late in the night there were other issues that were affecting police that were discussed, that is where this one was mentioned.

MR NOMPOZOLO: These were police grievances which had nothing to do with politics. Is it correct?

MR TYALI: Those are the matters that came up in the hall, but the purpose of the meeting itself was to remove Brig Gqozo, but there were other matters that came up that were actually troubling the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did you get to know that the meeting, the purpose of the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo?

MR TYALI: I got to know that when I was inside the hall when someone told me that Brig Gqozo is to be removed. But when I went there I knew nothing. Even the police at the police meeting, I was in class when I saw the vans approaching the hall. I was busy dealing with students and I was called. We were told to leave everything and go to the hall as Gen Nqoya wanted to see the police there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did it come, exactly what time did it come to your knowledge that the purpose was to remove Brig Gqozo?

MR TYALI: When I saw the soldiers coming at the gate. When the soldiers came I was at the gate and they got in and they said they heard that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo and they were also on the side of the police. We opened for them to get inside and they also safeguarded the place, that is when I got that information.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Before that what did you think was the purpose of the meeting?

MR TYALI: As I've explained that when I came the police were already there and Gen Nqoya was not there and I heard that he said he was coming back. I heard that he is the one who called the police. This issue of removing Brig Gqozo, I got that information from these soldiers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Had those soldiers not told you, you wouldn't have known?

MR TYALI: I am certain that if I did ask the people who were there, I would get that information in time, but I did not ask.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you fetched Mr Sawuti at his house, you were not fetching him for the purpose of removing Brig Gqozo. Am I correct?

MR TYALI: I had already heard from the soldiers that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo and now the police were telling the people to go and - telling anyone who had the car keys to go and fetch Mr Sawuti and that was in connection with maladministration of funds.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, therefore you confirm that it was not to remove Brig Gqozo. When Mr Sawuti was fetched, the purpose was not to remove Brig Gqozo, not so? It was for him to answer about misappropriation of funds.

MR TYALI: Will you please repeat the question Sir?

MR NOMPOZOLO: When Mr Sawuti was fetched from his house the purpose was not to remove Brig Gqozo, it was for him, that is for Mr Sawuti to answer about misappropriation of funds. To account for the misappropriation of funds.

MR TYALI: I can say yes because whoever was announcing that he said anyone with the car keys should go and fetch Capt Sawuti because his name was implicated among the people who were maladministering the funds, that is when I got out.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you accompanied whoever went there, your aim was not to arrest Mr Sawuti for misappropriation of funds, it was to kidnap him, take him to the police college to join other police officers who were already held hostage there?

MR TYALI: When we went to fetch Capt Sawuti we were told to come and fetch him because he was supposed to come and answer for himself as the implicated person and when we got into his house we told him so.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that you knocked in his house on the windows and on the door and you were shouting at his house that he is a thief, that he has misappropriated funds?

MR TYALI: It that did happen, I am asking for forgiveness but all I know is that we knocked nicely at the door and his brother opened the door and we talked to him and he told us to wait for him at the lounge, he was busy dressing up and then he finished and then he told us to go. If he says we knocked at the windows shouting at him saying that he was a thief, I apologise for that, but I do not remember seeing that happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What did you say when you met him in his house? What did you say to him? What was the reason for you to be there?

MR TYALI: When this young man opened the door we asked for Capt Sawuti and this young man went to call him and then he inquired what was the visit about. We told him that we were requested to go and fetch him because his name was implicated among the persons who had maladministered funds and he told us that he wanted to go and dress up and he came back. When we got into the car we requested his firearm to be with us, not to be with him. And then we took him to the hall and he joined the other officers on the podium.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Why did you request his firearm? What was the purpose? Was it to disarm him or was it to say that he's not fit to possess a service firearm?

MR TYALI: We don't know what would come to his mind as a person who was implicated in this problem of squandering funds, perhaps he would shoot at us, that is why we requested - I'm not also saying that the firearm was not safe with him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were armed yourselves, all of you who were there, is that not so?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were armed with R5's, with R4's and with side arms, is it not so?

MR TYALI: No we did not have the R5's, we had only pistols.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You did take out your firearms at his house and your tone was not as calm as it is today when you were addressing him.

MR TYALI: If he says that we did that to him, we apologise for that although we did not talk to him roughly. We were even chatting in the car and he even told us that he did not squander any funds and there was no chaos or squabble in the car, but if he says we did that, we ill-handled him, I am so sorry.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you went to his house, your purpose was to kidnap him, that is take him against his will. You were not going to leave his house without him, even if he didn't want to go with you.

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you were doing that you did not have any political motive on your mind to achieve.

MR TYALI: The aim of taking these officers into the college was to remove Brig Gqozo first of all, but when the police were discussing, the issue of funds came up and you were obliged to call the people who were implicated because that was not a very nice thing.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I correct to say, you are saying the purpose was to remove Brig Gqozo and you are saying that because others are saying that, otherwise you don't have anything to support your statement.

MR TYALI: I can support my statement because I never heard the police singing toyi-toyi songs before in the government buildings. I have never seen such behaviour, the behaviour that I witnessed on that particular day, that is why I am saying today that their aim was really to remove Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you were not part and parcel of those policemen, because one you were at the gate and all you were doing you were doing whatever is required to be done otherwise your mind was not set to do what the other policemen were doing because you were not part of the decision-making about those police. I mean you were not part of the decision-making

by those policemen and moreover you were never informed by the police that they want to remove Brig Gqozo.

MR TYALI: I was not at the gate as such but I would go to the gate and come back next to the hall. Fortunately when I was at the gate the soldiers came in, the soldiers who said they were coming to join the group of people who said they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo. I got that information from them. I went back to the hall as we were told that the security should be tight.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, may I be corrected, I don't want to put what was not said to the applicant. My understanding from Mr Mfene was that the six soldiers who arrived there, they were sent by Brig Gqozo to inquire what was happening there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well are we talking about the same soldiers?

Mr Mfene was talking about soldiers who came and wanted to find out what was going on and they left and Mfene and the others were left with some doubts, some suspicion and that's why they went to arm themselves but Mr Tyali is talking about soldiers who came there and who joined the police and who had said look the whole purpose is to get rid of Gqozo, so I'm not sure whether we're talking about the same soldiers. Did you want to put to him what Mr Mfene said about his soldiers, because his soldiers seem to have left and this African soldier seemed to have joined.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. May I just converse the point? The soldiers who told you that the purpose was to - that they also wanted to topple Mr Gqozo, did those soldiers leave the college?

MR TYALI: They did not leave the college, instead they came and joined the part of the security at the college, they became part of the security.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, you were never informed by the police that they want to remove Mr Gqozo, not so?

MR TYALI: I did not get that information from the people who were at the stage who were giving the other police microphones, I got that from the soldiers and I later got that as a rumour from the other people. No one told me directly that the aim was to make Gqozo to step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And would you concede that you unlawfully took Mr Sawuti from his house?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that had you not fetched Mr Sawuti from his house, he wouldn't have been held as a hostage at Bisho?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that Mr Sawuti could have been killed because you didn't know what was happening inside the hall, you didn't know what was the plan to bring them, could have been killed or whatever, something could have happened to him inside the hall?

MR TYALI: He would not be killed because he was not alone.

Not unless something else would be directed to him as an individual, but he was safe in the hall because the security was tight.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that when Mr Sawuti was fetched, already Brig Gqozo had announced his resignation?

MR TYALI: Yes I heard that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that the act of fetching Mr Sawuti and keeping him as a hostage, was a criminal act which had nothing to do with politics?

MR TYALI: Capt Sawuti, we did not fetch him forcefully, if there is anything that implies that, I apologise for that, but we took him nicely and we were even chatting in the car, there was no problem, even today we still chat nicely with him. If he thought that we took him in a rough manner or we manhandled him, I apologise for that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: My instructions are to the contrary, Mr Chairman. My instructions are that from his home in front of his children you humiliated him by saying he's a thief and he has misappropriated funds and then you manhandled him into the car pointed with firearms, up to the stage where he was taken into the hall wherein, inside the hall he was asked about money and to state his c v and all that. Now, I am instructed that you are not disclosing the truth before the Commission. What are you saying to that?

MR TYALI: That is why I am saying if he says that we acted in that manner, I would like to apologise for that, but all I can remember is that we requested his firearm while in the car, we did not disarm him in his house. When we were in the car we requested for his firearm and there was no wrestling and we never humiliated him in front of his children. If he says we did that I am so sorry.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sir, is it not correct that when you left the hall to fetch Mr Sawuti, already there were some officers who were in the hall who were being humiliated by other junior officers?

MR TYALI: Yes, people would be questioned about allegations about funds, people would be told to answer or respond whatever they know about the monies. Perhaps that person would mention someone else's name and they would ask anyone who has got the car to go and fetch that particular person to come and answer for himself. That was what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that when you left the premises of the hall to fetch Mr Sawuti you were in a very joyous mood because it was your turn as junior officers to question them? You were excited about it.

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct, because the situation that the police were in on that particular day, they were a bit rough, they were angry or rather rough because they had complained and at the same time they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo, the most important thing was to remove Brig Gqozo from what I saw, because I have never seen the police singing and ululating freedom songs in the government building.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that when you arrived at Mr Sawuti's house you wanted to show him that although he is a senior officer, you were above him on that day?

MR TYALI: I can say yes because if he refused to go with us on that particular time we were going to force him to go with us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you then agree with me that your answers are consistent with what he is saying that you forcefully removed him from his house against his will?

MR TYALI: Although we were not prepared to leave him behind if there was some resistance, but on that particular time he was willing, he went back to the house to dress up and we went back to the car. If he said we manhandled him I apologise for that because I don't remember seeing that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now other than Mr Sawuti, who else did you fetch? That is who else were you, personally, involved when he was fetched?

MR TYALI: The other person that we went to fetch was a certain brigadier who was staying in some rural area, Brig Kondo, the one that we went to fetch at his house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who else?

MR TYALI: The other one that we looked for and we couldn't find him was Brig Suys. He was not in his house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that when you fetched these people, you realised then that what you were doing was unlawful. As a result, subsequently you decided to ask for amnesty?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that you decided to ask for amnesty irrespective of whether what you were doing was political or not? Your criteria has not been that it was political.

MR TYALI: I disagree with you if you say it was not political because I've already said that the main aim was to remove Brig Gqozo, so we would hold some senior officers so that Gqozo could go down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At that stage you did not know that that was the plan, you yourself, I'm talking about you as an individual. You did not know that the plan was to take the senior officers so that Brig Gqozo can step down.

MR TYALI: That is why I say I got that information of Gqozo’s removal just before we could go to Capt Sawuti's place and Brig Kondo. As we were on our way to their homes, we knew at the time that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo, but those were the other issues that came about. The issues of money squandering.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But when you went to fetch Sawuti and others, Brig Gqozo had already resigned. Hence I'm saying you knew at that time what you were doing was unlawful and just a criminal act.

MR TYALI: Yes, I heard that he had resigned, but that's a rumour that I got but someone announced that, someone attached to the mike that someone should go and fetch this Serg Sawuti because he was also implicated.

MR NOMPOZOLO: As a policeman then and now, you knew and you know even now that if you associate yourself with a criminal act then you have to suffer the consequences,

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct. That is why I am here today to ask for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you went to the hall on the 22nd and when you left the hall on the 23rd you did not have - you were not politically aligned to any political organisation. Am I correct?

MR TYALI: I can say that is not true because at the time I was already a Popcru member. Popcru that is a Cosatu affiliate under the umbrella of the ANC.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Anyway, when you were fetching Capt Sawuti and others, you were not sent by Popcru to do so, not so?

MR TYALI: The people who were in front, people like Serg Nkwenkwe, Peteni and Mfene, I knew that they were Popcru members and even when this was happening it was apparent that this was the action that was taken by the members of the organisation, so I disagree with you when you say that I was not sent by Popcru to go and fetch Capt Sawuti, and even the freedom songs that were sung there, it was obvious to anyone that these people belong to some organisation.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At that stage you could differentiate between which is political and something which is not political.

MR TYALI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: On the 22nd and the 23rd of March 1994 you could differentiate between what is political and what is not political?

MR TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And anybody who had stolen money, that is not political, it has never been political. It is just a criminal act.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean, the perpetrator?

MR NOMPOZOLO: The perpetrator yes. Let's put it like this Mr Chairman, like Mr Sawuti, the fact that there was an allegation that he has stolen money, that was not political.

CHAIRPERSON: But assuming he had stolen the money, Mr Sawuti's theft of the money are you saying is not political?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now do you want him to comment on that?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, that he knew that time that the action of stealing money by Mr Sawuti was not a political action.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what has it got to do with his application, what Sawuti has done and whether Sawuti was actuated by a political motive or not, how does that fit into this?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't Sawuti's motive totally irrelevant to this application?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman, but what Sawuti has done was the cause for them to go and take Sawuti, therefore what Sawuti had done had nothing to do with politics, therefore what they were doing was not politically related.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's a different question. I would have thought that what Sawuti's motive was is totally irrelevant to this application. What their motive was in confronting Sawuti, would obviously be relevant to this inquiry here before us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I was driving to that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why don't you put that to him? Why don't you leave out Sawuti's motive because that doesn't seem to be relevant at all? Why don't you ask him what their motive was, whether their motive was political or not?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Actually, Mr Chairman, I wanted to put it to him what their motive was because we are saying that it was not political. The fact that Sawuti might have stolen money is not political.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well you might have dealt with that before, but why don't you ask him directly whether their motive in confronting Sawuti was political or not?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because Mr Chairman, once I put it like the Chair is suggesting, all what the witness is going to say is going to go right round and give a lengthy answer whereas I am getting to a point where I'm going to put it to him that the fact that Sawuti has stolen money for argument sake does not amount to a political related action from their side to go and fetch him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now that is exactly what I'm saying. Why don't you put it to him? Why don't you then put it to him that your case is that their conduct in confronting Sawuti, was not political?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, even Mr Tyali, even if we can take your case and say indeed Sawuti had misappropriated funds, but by going to him and confronting him about that is not politically motivated, or political related. Am I correct?

DR TSOTSI: Isn't what is or is not political going to be determined by the Committee?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you. That is so but the problem is that I have to put it to him, so that he can answer to that.

DR TSOTSI: Yes you have put it to him that what he did was not political. He says it was political. What further can we do now? You are cross-examining now, it would be in order to show that in fact the action was political, isn't that right - was not political?

MR NOMPOZOLO: To show that it was not political.

DR TSOTSI: Yes, but I'm saying the Committee has to determine whether or not an act is political. It is not the witness that has got to determine that aspect of the matter.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I had thought that it's my duty to elicit on behalf of my client that what they did was not political.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what my colleague is putting to you is that it's really argument. You're putting argument to the witness. The witness, his case as I understand it seems to be that they were acting with a political motive. You're saying they were not. There's obviously a dispute between the two of you and as my colleague puts it to you, that is something that the panel will have to decide on eventually so it doesn't take your case any further to put what is really a matter of argument to the witness.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.

Now, lastly Mr Tyali, is it correct that you were not part of the decision-making that Brig Gqozo will be removed on that day, you as an individual?

MR TYALI: We were heavily affected by Gqozo’s regime as the police. Even if that was discussed or decided upon in my absence I wouldn't say no. I got very excited when I heard that the aims of the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett any questions?

MS COLLETT: No Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Tyali you have just said that when you heard that the intention of that meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo, you got excited. When you heard that he has in fact resigned, when you heard it during the night that Brig Gqozo had resigned, did you believe that?

MR TYALI: I never believed that because it came to me as a rumour. I only believed it when I heard it over the news in my house and I heard that Brig Gqozo said he has resigned.

MR MAPOMA: When was it that you heard in your house?

MR TYALI: The following day.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you went to fetch Mr Sawuti and others, is it correct that you were still not in the belief that he has in fact resigned?

MR TYALI: I heard that as a rumour from the people who said they got that from him. I couldn't believe that and I didn't go there to fetch Mr Sawuti because Brig Gqozo had resigned, but I was doing that per instruction.

MR MAPOMA: Now this probing which was being made about the embezzlement of money and corruption, to your understanding, did it have anything to do with Brig Gqozo?

MR TYALI: Sir, as I've already said, the main objective there was to remove Brig Gqozo but it just happened that some work related issues were discussed in that meeting. Issues that just came and the police were interested in knowing how far did the case go, that is when we were told to go and fetch the people who were implicated.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?

MR OBOSE: Yes, just one point Mr Chairman.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Mr Tyali, I just want you to explain about the guarding of the premises. As far as you could establish at what stage were these premises guarded or from what stage, that is the police college?

MR TYALI: Sir you want to know on that particular day, or the normal procedure because there are two things here. On that particular day the police were on guard and the students who were training to be police were removed and they were taken to the bungalows, only the police assisted the soldiers because there was a rumour that the stability unit and S A D F would come and attack the police at the college. I am not sure if your question is answered.

MR OBOSE: Now when this news was received that Brig Gqozo has told some members that he has stepped down, I would imagine that this was related to the people in the hall and the general mood in the hall was it one of say oh thank you, we can now go home, we're happy, or was there some feeling that we should still remain until further notice?

MR TYALI: According to what I saw, the mood did not change but we continued collecting all the officers. There was no change in the mood and no-one said we must go home because Brig Gqozo had stepped down, but it was made mention, the fact that he would be addressing the people in the stadium the following day. I think that is why the police had to remain there because they were so much interested in seeing him addressing the people at the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tyali, thank you, you are excused.

NAME: SIBONGILE NDIOKO

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: ...(indistinct) pages 86 - 91.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 86 - 91.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

SIBONGILE NDIOKO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Mr Ndioko, you are a captain in the South African Police Services, is that correct?

MR NDIOKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: You are a captain in the South African police services is that correct?

MR NDIOKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: You know this application relates to the 22nd and the 23rd March 1994, is that correct?

MR NDIOKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you go to this meeting at Bisho police college?

MR NDIOKO: No, I did not attend the first meeting, but after some time when I heard that there were police that were held hostage I went there as a public relations officer.

MR OBOSE: When you received this news, where were you?

MR NDIOKO: I was in my office at Bisho.

MR OBOSE: At about what time did you go to the meeting?

MR NDIOKO: I cannot be that certain but I think it was between 1 and 2.

MR OBOSE: When you got to the meeting, what was the mood like in the hall or even outside?

MR NDIOKO: The people were singing freedom songs. There were officers who were at the stage and the other members and they were singing, they were in that mood.

MR OBOSE: Now, what did you then do? Did you associate yourself with this or did you decide that you won't be party to this singing?

MR OBOSE: I associated myself with this.

MR OBOSE: Doing what, specifically?

MR NDIOKO: When I arrived there I assessed the situation. I met with two to three people trying to inquire what was happening and then I realised that it was about overthrowing Brig Gqozo’s government and I gave my assistance with all I had. I also formed a part of a delegation that was going to Brig Gqozo’s place and I was also a part of a delegation in the morning that was summoned to the Embassy in King William's Town, that was the following day. All the time during this process I was not far from the stage.

MR OBOSE: Did you actually participate in the meeting, give instructions, pose questions, raise issues?

MR NDIOKO: Yes, I was assisting in certain issues, though I was not giving any instructions.

MR OBOSE: Now, you were part of the delegation to go to Brig Gqozo to do what?

MR NDIOKO: The police as it is already mentioned here, some people were appointed to go and call Brig Gqozo to come and address the police. That is how I got to Brig Gqozo’s place. I was in that delegation.

MR OBOSE: Did you find Brig Gqozo?

MR NDIOKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What happened at his house?

MR NDIOKO: We got into his house and we waited for a moment and he came to talk to us. Just before we could say anything, he expressed his disappointment, disappointed by the police and soldiers to such an extent that he decided to step down. That's what I can remember.

MR OBOSE: Now you were also part of a delegation that went to the Embassy the following morning. Why was it deemed necessary that there be such a delegation?

MR NDIOKO: Because we got information, though I cannot say today who gave us that information, that all the departments police should have representatives at the meeting that was going to be held at the Embassy where issues were to be discussed, issues around Brig Gqozo’s resigning and the way forward. I was appointed, myself and Col Mbi, to go there and represent them in that meeting. That is what we did.

MR OBOSE: What was the nature of this meeting?

MR NDIOKO: This meeting was a meeting of the representatives from all the labour unions who were existing at the time and representatives from different departments and the other people that I do not know, but the chairperson was Mr Smuts Ngonyama and Zen Pekas, those are the people that I can remember.

MR OBOSE: Did you see the following applicants in the meeting? Mr P A Loni?

MR NDIOKO: What meeting?

MR OBOSE: At Bisho police college.

MR NDIOKO: Yes, that it is correct.

MR OBOSE: L C Kamana?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: A K Mfene?

MR NDIOKO: Yes, I saw him.

MR OBOSE: L Moleshe?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: K N Potwana?

MR NDIOKO: I am not sure about the name, perhaps if I can see him I will be able to identify him.

MR OBOSE: Okay. V S Sibuqashe?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: N S Toto.

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: M C Nqinana?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: B M Yoyo?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: N Z Kolele?

MR NDIOKO: Yes

MR OBOSE: D Simangwe?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: N Ndoko?

MR NDIOKO: I am not sure about him, but perhaps if I can see him I'll be able to identify him.

MR OBOSE: M W Peteni?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: And S S Golo?

MR NDIOKO: Yes.

MR OBOSE: So they were part of this singing and goings on in that meeting?

MR NDIOKO: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel, any questions?

I assume you wouldn't have any re-examination Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndioko, you're excused.

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman I will call M W Peteni.

NAME: MAKAYA WELLINGTON PETENI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MAKAYA WELLINGTON PETENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose.

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: You are employed by the South African Police Services, is that correct?

MR PETENI: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: What rank do you hold?

MR PETENI: I am an inspector.

MR OBOSE: Did you go to the meeting of the 22nd March 1994 at Bisho police college?

MR PETENI: Yes that is correct Sir I was there.

MR OBOSE: Why? Why did you go there?

MR PETENI: I received a call from Gen Nqoya, a message.

MR OBOSE: What time did you get to the message?

MR PETENI: I arrived there at about 11.

MR OBOSE: What did you find when you got to the meeting? Was the meeting on already or not?

MR PETENI: I don't know whether when I arrived there, or let me put it this way, when I arrived there the main person who had called us, Gen Nqoya, was not there. There were police who were addressing the other police about the election but Gen Nqoya the one who called the meeting was not there.

MR OBOSE: Was there any singing of freedom songs or not when you got there?

MR PETENI: Yes, there were songs that were sung.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate or not in this singing of freedom song?

MR PETENI: Yes, I participated because what was important there, or what I knew about that day, was not the fact that -I knew the main purpose of my being there in that meeting that was called by Gen Nqoya, the reason why I went to that meeting is that I knew that we had to remove Brig Gqozo from his position because the police were not satisfied and the people at large, they were not satisfied, but there was nothing we could do at the time. There was no way that we had to deal with that fact. But he had helped us because he called us to the meeting in the hall.

MR OBOSE: So the idea was that once the larger number of police gather in one place, then the opportunity would then arise, is that what you had in mind?

MR PETENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Now, how did this, very roughly, in fact occur? I mean the turning of the meeting to suit your purposes?

MR PETENI: What happened Sir, my role that I took when I arrived there, I sat down as there were others who were on the stage, I listened to Insp Mfene as he was addressing us and as we were waiting for Mr Nqoya, the police were discussing issues about finances, the sports club finances and what that money was used for. We had to sell the things that were bought by that money, but I didn't know how that was going to happen. So what happened is Brig Wuso, we found out that he was one of the men that were involved in the issues of sports club. It seemed as if there was money from sports club that they were misusing it and then it was said that Mr Wuso was going to be fetched and I was one of the people who went to him to fetch him, Mr Wuso.

When we arrived at Mr Wuso, we told him that "Mr Wuso you are needed at the college, there is such and such a matter". We told him as we were told in the hall. Mr Wuso then stood up and he said he is a colonel and we can't just come that way to his office. Because there were a lot of us, he ended up standing up, leaving, but as there was a large number of us he was in front of us and he is a short man and I'm so short, I didn't see what was happening to him. So he was taken to the hall. I don't know anything about any other things. My involvement ended there.

MR OBOSE: How was the mood like when you got into Col Wuso's office of yourself and your group?

MR PETENI: It was quiet.

MR OBOSE: Where was Col Wuso's office, at the college or at the commissioner's office?

MR PETENI: It was in the offices next to the college.

MR OBOSE: Did you also remain in the hall until the early hours of the morning?

MR PETENI: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, yes, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: When Col Wuso was fetched, his office was left upside down because he was forcefully taken out of his office, not so?

MR PETENI: There is no such thing, I was there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when Col Wuso was fetched, Mr Nkwenkwe was there, not so?

MR PETENI: I don't think so Sir, because there were a lot of police there, so it's difficult to say such and such a person was there. I didn't see him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Anyway, why were the policemen fetched, these officers fetched from their offices?

MR PETENI: It is because of the issues that they were needed for there in the hall, the issues that were discussed whilst we were still waiting for Gen Nqoya. Gen Nqoya left the police in the hall saying that he was going to come back.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And those issues were labour related issues, that is issues relating to the nature of the work of the police, the payments, the monies due to them and all that?

MR PETENI: Those were some of the issues but the main issue was the fact that the police were not treated properly, they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo, they were not satisfied by what he was doing.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And the removal of Brig Gqozo was not dependent on the corruption of the officers.

MR PETENI: The removal of Brig Gqozo, I want you to understand it this way Sir. The removal of Brig Gqozo - we wanted him to be removed because of what he did to us. We couldn't discuss with him issues that were important. The people who were close to him, the people who were his friends, were those that were taken from their offices so that they can be kept there. It is when we were still waiting for Brig Gqozo when these issues came up of misuse of money, while we were still waiting for Gqozo and Mr Nqoya.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And Brig Gqozo was never informed that there were people who were held hostage, pending his resignation, by yourselves.

MR PETENI: I wasn't one of the delegation who went to Brig Gqozo, so I wouldn't know about that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR OBOSE: None, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Peteni, you are excused.

MR OBOSE: I don't know whether we will proceed during lunch-time, I see it is slightly after one now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are not going to take a lunch hour, we are forced to stop earlier this afternoon, so we are going to take a brief lunch adjournment. We were going to adjourn for lunch for 30 minutes, so have you got any other applicants that are

ready?

MR OBOSE: Yes, Mr Chairman, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you? Can we proceed to quarter past and then we will adjourn to quarter to 2?

MR OBOSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?

MR OBOSE: Simanga.

NAME: DAZI DENIS SIMANGA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------DAZI DENIS SIMANGA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: You are a member of the South African Police Services, is that so?

MR SIMANGA: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Stationed where?

MR SIMANGA: Provincial Protection Services in Bisho.

MR OBOSE: During March 1994 where were you stationed?

MR SIMANGA: I was station in NU12 in Vulingela Police Station.

MR OBOSE: What rank did you hold at the time?

MR SIMANGA: I was an inspector.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend the meeting at the Bisho police college on the morning of the 22nd March 1994?

MR SIMANGA: Yes I did attend that meeting.

MR OBOSE: At what time did you get to the meeting?

MR SIMANGA: In the morning but I can't remember the time.

MR OBOSE: What happened in this meeting very shortly?

MR SIMANGA: Gen Nqoya spoke to the police and then after that he was arguing with Insp Mfene then after that he left saying that we must wait for him. We should call the other police so that we can all be there, he wanted to address all the police.

MR OBOSE: Do you remember as to what was the cause of this quarrel, or exchange of words between him and Insp Mfene, of what did they talk about?

MR SIMANGA: They were talking about the elections and the conditions that would be in place during the new government and about the pensions of the police.

MR OBOSE: And what was Insp Mfene's objection, if any, to this?

MR SIMANGA: Insp Mfene showed the dissatisfaction of the government, of the way the government was treating us as the police in the former Ciskei and the working conditions and the things that were happening such as killing of people.

MR OBOSE: So Gen Nqoya left, what then happened in the meeting? Did the meeting continue?

MR SIMANGA: After Gen Nqoya said that we must call all the police, I was one of the police who went to Umtanzani to collect other police.

MR OBOSE: Why?

MR SIMANGA: Because he was going to address all the police.

MR OBOSE: Now you then got back to the meeting. What role did you play, if any, in this meeting or any other events related to this meeting?

MR SIMANGA: In this meeting my role, I was in front when I represented the police from Umtanzani. That was my role, there was nothing else except that I was in front and I associated myself with the police in all they were doing. If an action was taken I would associate myself with that.

MR OBOSE: Thank you. Nothing further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose. Mr Nompozolo any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Collett. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel? Have you got any re-examination?

MR OBOSE: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Simanga, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman the next witness I wish to call is not in right now. I was wondering maybe we could alternate the times and probably adjourn now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will adjourn for exactly 30 minutes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, I am happy to say that Mr Moleshe has arrived. His application appears at pages 30 to 36 of the bundle of paginated papers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: You are a member of the South African Police Services, is that so?

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: What rank?

MR MOLESHE: I am an inspector.

MR OBOSE: During March 1994 what rank were you holding?

MR MOLESHE: I was a sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Stationed where?

MR MOLESHE: At the police college.

MR OBOSE: There was a meeting there on the 22nd March 1993, is that correct, at the Bisho police college?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend this meeting?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, I attended it but not when it started.

MR OBOSE: Which category of policemen were to have attended this meeting, initially?

MR MOLESHE: The police that were not saluted.

MR OBOSE: What time roughly did you get to the place where the meeting was held?

MR MOLESHE: I arrived in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: How did you get to know that you had to attend the meeting?

MR MOLESHE: I was busy at the college with students and then I heard people singing. I then went to the hall.

MR OBOSE: What type of song?

MR MOLESHE: They were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: And you were attracted to this meeting because freedom songs were sung?

MR MOLESHE: I was supposed to be there at the meeting but because I was busy - I then joined whilst they were singing.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in this singing freedom songs?

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: In what other manner, if any, did you participate in this meeting?

MR MOLESHE: As the time goes by, while we were discussing, I was chosen to be one of the people who were to fetch Superintendent Sawuti.

MR OBOSE: Did you go?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you find Superintendent Sawuti?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is so.

MR OBOSE: Where?

MR MOLESHE: At his house.

MR OBOSE: Roughly what time was this?

MR MOLESHE: Because I didn't have a watch, but it was dark, I think it was in the middle of the night, but I'm not sure about the time.

MR OBOSE: Was he happy to come along with you?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, after we have explained to him why we needed him, he said he was going to go with us. He was going to dress up and then he did that and we all left.

MR OBOSE: And you took him to Bisho police college?

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did he remain there until the early hours of the next morning?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, he was there as the night went by.

MR OBOSE: And yourself?

MR MOLESHE: I was also there.

MR OBOSE: And the next morning, did you also proceed to Bisho stadium?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct, I went to the stadium.

MR OBOSE: Did you at any stage get to hear about Gqozo’s resignation?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, in the middle of the night we heard that Gqozo had resigned.

MR OBOSE: And why did the meeting continue?

MR MOLESHE: Because Gqozo had resigned and it was during the night and then we heard that Gqozo was supposed to address people in the stadium, telling them that he had resigned. So when we heard that he had resigned it was during the night and there were other issues that came up whilst we were still discussing amongst our officers, that is why we were there for the whole night, until the next morning.

MR OBOSE: It has been stated that police were armed, some with R5 assault rifles, is that so?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is so.

MR OBOSE: Do you know why?

MR MOLESHE: It is because we heard that we were going to be forced to leave the premises, the college hall, and then the boers would come and force us to leave the hall, so we decided to arm.

MR OBOSE: So you intended defending yourself in the event of people forcefully removing you from the hall?

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose. Mr Nompozolo any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct Mr Moleshe that by the time you fetched Mr Sawuti from his house, you already knew that Gqozo had resigned?

MR MOLESHE: When we went to fetch Mr Sawuti we didn't know that Gqozo had resigned. I didn't know at the time that Gqozo had resigned.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When Mr Sawuti was fetched, is it not correct that you were in company of Tyali?

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was it not announced by Nkwenkwe that Brig Gqozo had resigned before you left to fetch Mr Sawuti?

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't dispute that but what happened on that day, you wouldn't be in the hall the whole time, we were around the camp.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What kind of firearm were you carrying when you went to fetch Mr Sawuti?

MR MOLESHE: I had a side arm, a 9mm pistol.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was there anyone who was carrying the big firearms like R4, R5 in your company?

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't be sure, but in that car that I was in I didn't see any person with the big firearm, because there were two cars that went there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The aim of fetching Mr Sawuti was not to unseat Brig Gqozo, am I correct?

MR MOLESHE: The aim of collecting all the officers, we wanted them to be in the hall because we had regarded them as the people who were close to Brig Gqozo and everything that was not right, that was happening at the police service, Gqozo would be on their side. So we had to take the officers to put them in the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you know that the purpose of the meeting was to unseat Brig Gqozo?

MR MOLESHE: I didn't know at first because I arrived late in the meeting. I arrived when the people were singing freedom songs, that's when I arrived. I didn't know what happened in order to be that meeting, but when I arrived people were singing freedom songs and they were also shouting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At the - when exactly did you get to know that the purpose was to unseat Brig Gqozo?

MR MOLESHE: Whilst I was still in the hall people singing freedom songs, I could hear the police shouting saying that they wanted him to be removed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, is it correct that Mr Sawuti was kidnapped from his home by yourselves?

MR MOLESHE: Sawuti was taken by us from his home.

MR NOMPOZOLO: He was not kidnapped?

MR MOLESHE: We took him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You took him forcefully against his will.

MR MOLESHE: At that time there was not need to use force because why, when we told him that he was needed at the hall he asked who was in the hall. We told him that the commissioners and the officers were there, so he told us that he was going to dress up and then we didn't take him by force to the car.

Now, to whom were you referring to by saying kidnapping on your application?

MR MOLESHE: I was referring to Sawuti, the one I took from his home, because he laid a charge that I took him against his will.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So when you made the application - when you applied for amnesty on the written form, you indicated that you want amnesty for kidnapping.

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And that is consistent with what Sawuti instructed me to say, that you kidnapped him from his home.

MR MOLESHE: I can say it is so if he says that we kidnapped him because we took him from his house, but we didn't force him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to him you were so aggressive.

MR MOLESHE: There was no need for being aggressive at the time we were talking to him because he didn't resist when we told him that he was needed at the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to him you were humiliating him in front of his children and also in front of other policemen on your arrival at the college, calling him a thief.

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't dispute that because he was not in the car that I was in, there were two cars there. He was in the first car and I was in the second car, maybe that happened, but I don't have any knowledge about it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that you were never part of the people who planned the meeting and you did not know what the meeting was all about?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct, I didn't know what the meeting was all about, I was not part of the plan, or I was not part of it when it started.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And therefore, is it correct that you could not be part of the people who wanted to unseat Brig Gqozo because you did not know about that?

MR MOLESHE: That is not so, Sir, because I also didn't like Gqozo. I was one of the people who didn't like him. If it had happened that I was there at beginning of the meeting I would have supported that because I've supported it when I arrived there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that Mr Sawuti all along, throughout the meeting, he was not fetched from his place until somebody mentioned that he has misappropriated funds and then for that purpose he was fetched from his home?

MR MOLESHE: As I've already said before, there were discussions in the meeting about what had happened and these cases didn't go further against the officers because they were close to Brig Gqozo so he prevented these cases to go forward and the issue of the money came forward, it became part of the things that were being discussed so we were told to go and fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: They were fetched because people wanted to establish how much have they misappropriated, not that they were fetched because you people, you wanted to remove Gqozo.

MR MOLESHE: That is not so. Each and every officer, there were a lot of officers in the Ciskei, so it was difficult to think about all of them. If a person suggests or thinks about a particular officer, we would go and fetch that officer even if he was not involved in the misuse of money. There were other officers that were not fetched that particular day, but we didn't think about them at the time but they were also needed in the camp.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, if the decision was to take the officers because they were closer to Gqozo, therefore during the day when other officers were arrested or taken as hostage, it means that all the officers, if the purpose was to take all the officers, all the officers could have been taken during the day on the 22nd.

MR MOLESHE: Those we could be able to get, we did get them. We went to the head office and we took them all and then we went to the logistics office and then we took those that were there and those that were in other areas, so we couldn't find others during the day and then we managed to get others during the evening and then they met Capt Tlela for example at the robots and then he was taken to that area.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So the aim of taking the officers into the hall was not to unify the police and have one voice against Gqozo, is that what you are saying?

MR MOLESHE: I've already said the officers were the people that were close to Brig Gqozo, so it would have been difficult for us to be united with him, but we wanted them to be there in that place and Gqozo to be alone outside.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, why were the officers not questioned about their relationship with Gqozo, why were they questioned about the misappropriation of funds?

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't be able to answer that because I was not asking any questions and as I've already said, we were in and out, so I wouldn't say that those questions were asked or not.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who told you the purpose of fetching the officers?

MR MOLESHE: I heard that from the hall. I was outside. I heard that people said that we were supposed to go and fetch Sawuti. I was the one who knew where he was staying so I went inside the hall and I told them that I knew where he was staying, so I went to fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was the purpose of fetching Mr Sawuti from his house? Was it to unseat Gqozo, when it was announced when you were outside, or was it said the Mr Sawuti has misappropriated some funds therefore he must be fetched and come and account for that?

MR MOLESHE: The person who announced this, I didn't hear his reasons, he just asked whether we - is there anyone who knew where Mr Sawuti was staying, I then said yes I knew where he was staying. I didn't ask why he was needed and I knew where he was staying so I decided to go and fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you did not know for what purpose Mr Sawuti was to be fetched?

MR MOLESHE: I knew that the officers were needed inside. They had to be in the camp. If we meet an officer, you have to take him to the camp. He was one of the officers to be taken to the camp.

MR NOMPOZOLO: All along during the day the officers, during the day, during the night, the officers were questioned about their promotions, were questioned about the misappropriation of funds, is that correct?

MR MOLESHE: There were questions about the misappropriation of money and those were the reasons why we asked them and then their cases were not going forward, and then that involved the politicians such as Brig Gqozo. Those were the discussions that were happening inside.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And there was not one political question asked of Mr Sawuti, was there any?

MR MOLESHE: I don't know what kind of questions Mr Sawuti was asked, I didn't ask any questions.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that your role was just to kidnap him and put him in the hall and nothing further?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that was one of them, that he was supposed to be in the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you do any other thing to Mr Sawuti other than kidnapping him?

MR MOLESHE: No, I didn't do any other thing to him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that you decided to apply for amnesty after you had been charged at Zwelitsha Regional Court? After you had been charged and convicted at Zwelitsha Regional court?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it also correct that you applied for amnesty after summons had been issued for kidnapping, for unlawful arrest and detention and for malicious prosecution by Mr Sawuti and others?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, I even appeared in court.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that. prior to the civil and the criminal cases against you, you did not apply for amnesty, neither did you think of doing so?

MR MOLESHE: I didn't apply for amnesty before.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the actions of the day, that is the 22nd and the 23rd, as far as you are concerned, were not politically aligned but you were just doing this out of excitement?

MR MOLESHE: No, our excitement would not lead us to think of removing Brig Gqozo. It was not just excitement, it was what we wanted so we had to do it that way so that it can be successful because, in the first place, we knew that the soldiers were divided. There were soldiers who supported Gqozo and there were those that didn't support him. The police and our management were supporting Brig Gqozo. We knew that that was the opportunity to remove Brig Gqozo, that's why we did those things the way we did them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you happen to know if Brig Gqozo was informed that officers were held hostage at the Bisho police college?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, Gqozo knew about that because the commissioner at the time, Nqoya, was with him, was with Brig Gqozo. He left the hall, he went to the head of State, Brig Gqozo and he was also found there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How do you know that the commissioner told Brig Gqozo that officers were held hostage at Bisho police college?

MR MOLESHE: There was no way that he couldn't have told him because the officers from his office were not in the office at the time, they were in the hall and he was together with Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is evidence given here that the commissioner called the meeting and left the meeting to have a meeting with Brig Gqozo, is that not the correct evidence?

MR MOLESHE: As I've already said, before when the meeting started I was not there. When I arrived the commissioner was not there but what I know is that the commissioner was found at Bisho in the minister's residence. That is why I'm saying that Gqozo knew that the officers were there because the commissioner was found there with Gqozo, but when I got to the hall he was not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Therefore, we can safely say that the commissioner did not know that the officers were held hostage, because he left before the officers were held hostage, is that correct?

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't dispute that, I wouldn't agree with that because I've already said that when I arrived the commissioner was not there. I don't know when he left or how he left. When I arrived there, he was not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How did you hope to unseat Brig Gqozo?

MR MOLESHE: What happened on that day when we kept the officers inside the hall, the soldiers arrived during the night. They arrived at the hall and there was conflict, or disagreement about the police and the soldiers, they came as if they were there to help the police, but we as the police realised that these people still wanted Brig Gqozo. They left and then we sat there until the night when Gqozo said he was resigning.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Moleshe, I put it to you that you kidnapped Mr Sawuti and you held him hostage at Bisho police college and that had nothing to do with unseating Brig Gqozo.

MR MOLESHE: I would dispute that because kidnapping him or taking him was part of all this because we wanted to remove Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was there a plan in the meeting that Brig Gqozo would be told to step down and to achieve that his officers, his police officers, are being held hostage?

MR MOLESHE: When I arrived there, the meeting was continuing so I decided to join the meeting, I decided to be part of what was happening. When the meeting started I wasn't there so I don't know what happened before I arrived. When I arrived these freedom songs were being sung and then I went in, I listened and I also joined in the singing of those songs until the time came when I was supposed to go and fetch Capt Sawuti.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So there was not stage that you know of where the meeting agreed that we are holding these people as hostage and Brig Gqozo must be told to step down because we are holding police officers as hostage?

MR MOLESHE: There was no meeting that I was part of that I heard that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But now how did you hope to achieve your objective of unseating Brig Gqozo if he is not told that we are holding some people here hostage therefore step down so that we can release them?

MR MOLESHE: Surely the pressure that we had because we took all the officers from Whittlesea and around, we were trying to send him a message, we were pressurising him, so he could see that he had no police, so we were dependent on him, but by doing that we knew that he was being helped by the police so the if the officers were not there something would happen.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But now, he wouldn't have known that the officers attended the meeting voluntarily or they were kidnapped to go to the meeting, not so?

MR MOLESHE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Brig Gqozo wouldn't have known that he has got no officers, the officers are kidnapped, no would he know that the officers had gone to the meeting voluntarily, is it not so, because it was not communicated to him.

MR MOLESHE: The way this happened, it happened next to his offices. The officers were taken at the parliament head office with casspirs so it was obvious because the police were around Bisho, even if he was not told it, but he would have suspected, or he would have known that something was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you people who attended the meeting at that stage, you did not know where he was and you did not communicate with him, that is with Brig Gqozo, not so?

MR MOLESHE: We tried to meet with him, soldiers telling us that he was here or there, but we couldn't exactly find him where he was. Then at night we heard that he had resigned, so the police celebrated. We also heard that over the radio that Brig Gqozo had resigned, in the morning. We heard that Gqozo wanted to go and address the police. We then said that if he had resigned he must go to the stadium and address the people and tell them that he had resigned and that didn't happen.

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is exactly my point. My point is this, because you did not know the whereabouts of Brig Gqozo during the day, you wouldn't know that Brig Gqozo observed all what happened and as a result he got the message. Do you understand my point.

MR MOLESHE: What time?

MR NOMPOZOLO: During the day, before he resigned, you wouldn't know when the officers were taken out of the parliament offices and from all their offices, you did not know that he is observing that or not.

MR MOLESHE: But the way it happened according to my perception, he was supposed to observe that or to see that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now were all the officers taken to Bisho as hostage?

MR MOLESHE: The officers that were there at Bisho, they were all taken, those that were found there. Those that were not taken, they were not in the office, but everybody that was in the office, they were taken to the Caspir and they were taken to the college and those that were at the head office, they were also taken to the college.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, the officers, those who are instructing me are saying that there at the police college, those who were at the police college, taken hostage there, they are saying all what happened there, they were being humiliated, asked about their CV’s, asked about their promotions. Do you have any knowledge about that?

MR MOLESHE: It might be possible that that happened, but I can't say for sure that it happened or it was the only thing that happened maybe it was one of the things that were happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Those who are instructing me are saying there was nothing which was said to them about their support or their being under Brig Gqozo.

MR MOLESHE: Yes, that did happen when the commissioner was there because it was said that that is why their cases are not going forward because people like Gqozo were on their side, the cases about - the cases that were investigated by the department. So that clearly showed us that they were close to Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When was that said?

MR MOLESHE: When Commissioner Nqoya was present during the night.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But when Commissioner Nqoya arrived there already Brig Gqozo had resigned.

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't be sure about whether he had resigned or not because as I've already said, this issue about him being resigned was heard over the radio by those who were listening to the radio. Whether the commissioner was present at the time, I wouldn't be sure.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you as people who were there, in particular yourself, have any knowledge of the association of Mr Sawuti and Brig Gqozo?

MR MOLESHE: Capt Sawuti, because he was an officer, he was a commissioned officer, we associated them with him, not as individuals but because of his position, because he was a commissioned officer we associated all of them with him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you did not care whether he was against Brig Gqozo, as long as he was a commissioned officer, then he was on the side of Brig Gqozo?

MR MOLESHE: Every commissioned officer, we'd take him to the hall and he was also a commissioned officer at that time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, I don't wish to mislead the applicant. I understood Mr Mfene to be saying that - sorry -Mr Nkwenkwe to be saying that he went to Brig Gqozo with others in the evening and came back and told the meeting that Brig Gqozo has resigned.

MR MOLESHE: I wouldn't dispute that, that he went to him, but I don't know about that, I didn't hear about it and I didn't see him when he was leaving.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that had Mr Sawuti resisted you, you would have forcefully taken him?

MR MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett have you got any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Has the panel got any questions?

Thank you. Have you got any re-examination Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Just one issue Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Now you say soldiers got to the meeting and it became apparent that they were still pro Gqozo and there was some disagreement and they were told to leave, or at least left. Just briefly what was this disagreement or around which issue in particular?

MR MOLESHE: What happened is when the soldiers arrived they went in and they were given a chance to speak and whilst they were speaking we found out that these people didn't want Gqozo to be removed, they wanted him to continue, so the police told them to leave because they were not agreeing with them.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just, following on that, ask one question?

Were there any soldiers who actually joined you in the hall as part of the security, as one witness put it?

MR MOLESHE: Yes, there were soldiers that came there driving military vehicles. Those are the soldiers that I am saying they were given a chance to speak at the hall but we found out that we are not saying the same thing. They wanted Gqozo to continue, they didn't want him to be removed, that is when the conflict came. We then released them, we told them to leave.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is actually, were there soldiers that stayed, that joined you in your objective that Gqozo should be removed?

MR MOLESHE: No. Those that were in the hall, they left.

DR TSOTSI: You say that some of the soldiers who spoke in the hall there you found out that they were not really with you, supporting you, what did they say which made you realise that they were not supporting you?

MR MOLESHE: What happened is, as the hall was full, there were others inside, there were others outside, I heard that from someone who was coming inside the hall, he said that these soldiers wanted Gqozo to continue so they must leave. I didn't hear that directly from a soldier, I heard it from a comment from a police who was coming from inside saying that these soldiers were for Gqozo, they were not against him.

DR TSOTSI: So you yourself don't know whether or not the question of Gqozo’s resignation was raised at the meeting?

MR MOLESHE: No, what I heard was people shouting "Down with Gqozo", they were singing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Moleshe you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: That will be the last witness for today Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We have heard the testimony of 7 of the applicants. We obviously are intent on concluding this application in this session and to that end we are going to let the matter stand down until Thursday morning and we intend to conclude the matter on Thursday, so we would like to prevail on you to ensure that the remaining applicants are in attendance here on Thursday so that we can finalise their matters.

MR OBOSE: Yes, I'll do my best Mr Chairman, certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps you can impress the urgency and importance of that on your clients when you are in touch with them and if it's necessary you can convey that to the authorities if

you need to get the assistance of some of the authorities in the police to ensure their attendance here. you can impress upon those in authority that the remaining applications might very well be prejudiced if they don't ensure that everything is made possible for those remaining applicants to actually come through here and to attend and to have their matters heard.

MR OBOSE: I'll do so Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Under those circumstances, we are postponing the proceedings until Thursday morning and we will reconvene in this venue at 9 o'clock in the morning. We're adjourned until Thursday 9 o'clock.