NAME: HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: The Khubeka incident hearing will only be commencing tomorrow, Tuesday at this venue. I'm mentioning it now because I believe there might be some people who are here today who have an interest in that. So the Khubeka matter will start tomorrow and today we'll deal with the Lalla and Gordhan matter, but before we start I'd just like to briefly introduce the Panel. On my right is Advocate Bosman, she is a Member of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. She is an advocate, she's from the Cape. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermartizburg, also a Member of the Amnesty Committee and I'm Selwyn Miller, I'm a judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Division of that court and I'm also a Member of the Amnesty Committee. I would like the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR VISSER: If it pleases you Chairperson and Members of the Committee, my name is Louis Visser, I'm instructed by Wagener Muller Attorneys of Pretoria. In the present application I appear for one person only, that is Colonel Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, may it please you and your members, my name is Christo Nel and I represent three applicants in this matter of the Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, namely Mr Greyling, Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma. Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and is it correct Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla that you'll be appearing for yourselves?

MR GORDHAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LALLA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think we'll take the applicants in the order that they appear on the documents. We'll start with Hendrik Johannes Petrus Botha.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Chairperson. Mr Botha is available, he has no objection to taking the prescribed oath and he will give his evidence in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, the proceedings are simultaneously translated, you'll have to use this ...(indistinct)

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Chairperson, before I commence leading the evidence of the witness it might be helpful to you if I gave you a very brief background against which the present incident played off. Chairperson, you are well acquainted with the document which we have been handed in at previous amnesty hearings, "Die Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke" - The General Background to Amnesty Applications and you have heard us also address in argument where we refer to this document and I hope that and I trust that I won't have to take you through that again?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am fully acquainted with it Mr Visser and I'm sure my colleagues are as well.

MR VISSER: Yes. Chairperson, as far as the present hearings are concerned we added two documents to that and I've been told by yourself that you have studied those documents in the week?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I had an opportunity of reading these and I have studied them. In fact I've studied more than two documents.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm certain. Chairperson, the background to the present incident is precipitated by the discovery of an operation called Vula as you now are aware. This occurred after the arrest of a certain Mr Ndaba on the 7th July 1990 at a time when there were serious talks about negotiations and in fact certain negotiations have already commenced between the government and other important groupings, political groupings, in the country including the ANC/SACP Alliance.

Chairperson, one thing led to another and on the 12th July while two members of the security branch of Durban were observing Mr Nyanda, Mr Siphiwe Nyanda, they got the impression that he had become aware of their watching him and he was then arrested. That arrest was immediately followed by a number of arrests. The evidence was in previous incidents before his Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson, as the Chairman, that 12 to 15 people were arrested on the 12th July. Those people included according to the evidence, Chairperson, Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla apparently because of the shortage of space for Section 29 detention facilities, both Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla were detained in Bethlehem in the Free State.

Chairperson, just one last bit of information. At the time during 1990 and also before that the security branch members in Port Natal here in Durban became aware that information was leaked out from security headquarters and they suspected that there was a mole in security branch. The name of this person was The Owl, O-W-L, and when Mr Maharaj gave evidence last week, Chairperson, he actually confirmed this. In fact he went further to say that there was more than one person of the ANC which had been infiltrated into the security branch. With that brief background, Chairperson, I now beg leave to lead the witness.

Mr Botha - oh yes, Chairperson, my attorney just reminds me, we have made summaries of the evidence of Mr Botha. I saw fit to do that in two documents, Chairperson, we will lead the evidence on both these gentlemen's assaults simultaneously but perhaps if you could mark - well could first of all the general background remain as Exhibit A, B and C, those exhibits which you already have before you, Chairperson. "Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke" is Exhibit A, an extract of chapter 17 of The Other Side of the Story, Exhibit B and then C.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be the Operation Vula, the article?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: By Dr Robert Henderson.

MR VISSER: Yes correct, we've been referring to that document as the Gail Wannenburg document because those are the first words you'll read at the top of the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes.

MR VISSER: Well can this then be Exhibit D Chairperson, that is the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: This will be the one relating to Mr Gordhan?

MR VISSER: Mr Gordhan is D and Mr Lalla will be E.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, Mr Lalla, do you have these documents?

MR GORDHAN: I've only just received it, Chairperson, that's being an English speaking person places me at a distinct disadvantage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, we will go through the whole document and it will be translated as we go on. It's a very brief document.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you have these other Exhibits A, B and C?

MR GORDHAN: I've just been handed them, thank you.

MR VISSER: Mnr Botha, u het van tevore reeds getuig voor die Amnestie Kommittee tydens hierdie sitting in Durban en ook in November verlede jaar, is dit korrek?

MR BOTHA: Korrek Mnr die Voorsitter.

MR VISSER: U het ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you getting the translation Ms Thabethe?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not either. Sorry which channel are we on? Channel 2. Mr Gordhan, Mr Lalla are you on channel 2?

MR LAX: There may be a technical problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll just leave it to the sound technician and he'll take a look and then Mr Visser if you could just recommence please once it's ready?

I can hear that coming through but it's in English, I don't know if it's coming from the interpreter's box?

I think if the interpreter can do that, the translator?

MR LAX: It is the translator.

CHAIRPERSON: Translator. Okay let's ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: I think we can proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I will start again.

Mr Botha, you are an applicant in this application and you are requesting amnesty for the assault of Messrs Gordhan and Lalla. You have already given evidence before the Amnesty Committee under the Chairpersonship of the Honourable Judges Mall and Wilson, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And during November last year you also gave evidence especially with regards to the background of Natal violence and Operation Butterfly and Operation Vula, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You have also studies Exhibits A, B and C?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And do you concur with the content as far as it has to do with your knowledge which is embodied in the document?

MR BOTHA: I agree.

MR VISSER: And did you hear the brief introduction that I gave this morning with regard to how it came to be that Messrs Gordhan and Pravine were arrested?

MR BOTHA: That is correct and I concur with it.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, what did I say? That is Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla who were arrested.

MR GORDHAN: I don't have a split personality, Chair.

MR VISSER: May I refer you to Exhibit D and would you address the Committee regarding this incident?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, during 1990 towards the end of July beginning August I went to interrogate Pravine Gordhan in Bethlehem where he was being detained. The reason for that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Mr Botha, at that period of time what position were you holding? I think just for the record purposes were you attached to the Durban Security Branch of the Police?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I was connected to the security branch of Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Holding what rank at that period?

MR BOTHA: I think that I was already a major or a lieutenant colonel.

MR VISSER: Just to put this clearly there was a Natal Division and a Port Natal Division, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: At that stage Chairperson, everything had already been combined into one.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I'm referring to previous times, you were connected to which section or unit of the security branch?

MR BOTHA: I was in the terrorism division which was divided into three components. There was the terrorism investigation unit, the askari unit and the intelligence component.

MR VISSER: And who was the head of the askari unit?

MR BOTHA: It was Colonel Andy Taylor.

MR VISSER: Did he occupy the same rank as you?

MR BOTHA: No, Colonel Taylor was one rank higher than me.

MR VISSER: So was he your senior with regard to command?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And the other division that you mentioned?

MR BOTHA: That was the investigations unit which was under the command of Captain Hennie Cloete.

MR VISSER: And the third?

MR BOTHA: That was the intelligence component which was under my command.

MR VISSER: Very well and what exactly did the intelligence component do?

MR BOTHA: We were responsible for the collection of information within the borders of division Port Natal as well as within the borders of the R.S.A. and then in neighbouring countries such as Swaziland, Mozambique and Zambia.

MR VISSER: You said you went to interrogate Mr Gordhan in Bethlehem where he was being detained after his arrest regarding the Operation Vula matter. What was the reason for that?

MR BOTHA: The reason was that there was information indicating that there was a mole in the security branch in Durban who had the name The Owl and this information was confirmed by documents which were drawn from the computers during Operation Vula.

MR VISSER: And to which computers do you refer now?

MR BOTHA: These were the computers for communication which were used by members who were connected to Operation Vula.

MR VISSER: And did the security branch take possession of these computers?

MR BOTHA: That is correct. I had reason to believe that Gordhan knew who the mole was.

MR VISSER: Was it important for you to find out who it was?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, it was necessary because so doing one could prevent any kind of leakage during an investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: I think for purposes of record a mole is a spy?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And undercover agent or spy?

MR VISSER: Yes, an infiltrated undercover agent of the enemy so to speak. You are correct, Chairperson. Please continue?

MR BOTHA: I travelled to Bethlehem where I spoke to Mr Gordhan in the offices of crime intelligence services of the security branch in Bethlehem.

MR VISSER: You're going too fast, please remember that the two victims are not proficient in Afrikaans and please give the interpreters the opportunity to do their job peacefully so that they can have the opportunity to hear what you're saying and undertake the interpreting.

MR BOTHA: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Visser, just one little point? We've heard from Mr Visser that Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla were arrested on the 12th July. Approximately when would you have gone through to Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, this was towards the end of July, beginning of August. As far as my knowledge goes they had been detained from the beginning of the investigation in Durban and they had been sent out to other places for Section 29 Detention.

MR VISSER: And while the Chairpersons on that point, why were they detained in Bethlehem and not here in Durban?

MR BOTHA: There were only so many cells within the greater Durban area which were suitable for Section 29 detention. There were specific prerequisites that a cell had to comply with for Section 29 detention.

MR VISSER: And?

MR BOTHA: And consequently they were transferred to Bethlehem because Durban was already full.

MR VISSER: Very well and you say that you found Mr Gordhan in the offices of the crime intelligence service of the security branch in Bethlehem and that is where you spoke to him?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were any other persons present during this meeting?

MR BOTHA: The members who had been allocated from Durban to interrogate Messrs Gordhan and Lalla were Carl Duhr, Marius Greyling and Frans Bothma. A fourth member who has passed away in the meantime was Warrant Officer Basson and he was also allocated to that interrogation team.

MR VISSER: Very well. Now why did you go if they were already there?

MR BOTHA: They were occupied with the general interrogation and recording of statements of the detainee.

MR VISSER: Very well?

MR BOTHA: The specific information which was required was not known to them.

MR VISSER: Please proceed with paragraph 4?

MR LAX: Why was that - sorry if you'd allow me? You've got three chaps who are interrogating these people held in Bethlehem, why didn't they know what they were supposed to be - what the specific information they were supposed to be getting was?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, in a Section 29 detention situation the Act prescribed that the detainee had to make a statement and they were tasked with that. In other words he would tell them about his own involvement and when there was specific information which would be obtained from elsewhere which such a detainee would possess. Information would be channelled to the interrogator who would interrogate him about it.

MR LAX: Mr Botha, I'm quite aware of the Section 29. The primary task of Section 29 is to answer questions to the satisfaction, that's the term used in that stature. Now the people who were questioning didn't know what information was required so how could they question the person if they didn't know what you were looking for? A general statement is of no use to anybody because it can't satisfy anyone. Do you see my point?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson, but at that stage the documents which had been withdrawn from the computers during Vula had been collated into bundles and given to the various interrogators.

MR LAX: So then they did know what they were looking for?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: But then why did you say they didn't?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, during the detention of these persons and quite a few months after the dates of arrests, a lot of information was still be drawn from the computers and as the information became available it was sent out. In this case it was vital for two reasons with regard to Messrs Gordhan and Lalla.

One, the case of Mr Gordhan indicated to us that he knew the identity of the mole, namely The Owl, and in the case of Mr Lalla, he was specifically tasked within Operation Vula and this was confirmed by documents that he had to establish contact with recruited agents within the R.S.A. and that he would continue with the handling of such persons. Some of those persons were described with code names within the documentation and only he knew the detail of how to establish contact with such persons in terms of the documentation which was obtained from the computers and that was the reason why I travelled to Bethlehem, it was to clear up those two aspects with the detainees.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR VISSER: Please proceed, paragraph 4?

MR BOTHA: Firstly I worked with Mr Gordhan and he was not prepared to provide any information with regard to the mole.

MR VISSER: And was it clear to you as interrogators that Mr Gordhan was not going to provide you with any information?

MR BOTHA: That was clear to me. Consequently I decided to use a method of coercion to oblige him to provide information to me. Now in this case it was that I would make use of a suffocation method to get him to talk. In this process I was assisted by three members, namely Greyling, Duhr and Bothma.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, if I may intervene? If this is a supply of evidence and reading of the statement, it would be very useful if reference can be made to the particular paragraph that the witness is addressing.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha do you follow what the problem is here? This person is following you by means of the document but you keep jumping around so would you just stick to the paragraphs and if you wish to add anything you can do so afterwards. We are now going to proceed with paragraph 5?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR BOTHA: I used a bag or a towel to suffocate Gordhan after he had been wrapped up in a blanket. This would make his detention easier. I used either a bag or a towel to suffocate Gordhan. I cannot recall whether his hands were cuffed but I don't believe that that was the case otherwise the cuffs would have made marks as he was struggling. The other persons whom I've mentioned namely Greyling, Duhr and Bothma, assisted me in holding him down while I pulled the towel or bag tightly around his head. I cannot recall which of them assisted with which of these persons but it is my opinion that in the case of Gordhan, Greyling, Duhr and Bothma were present. The suffocation along with the interrogation and response of Mr Gordhan took approximately ten minutes. Mr Gordhan did not cooperate in any way with regard to the questions which were put to him regarding the identity of the mole, he denied any knowledge of who the person was and it became clear that Gordhan would not provide any information and I ceased the interrogation. The reason why I assaulted Mr Gordhan was in order to obtain the information from him which would be of tremendous value to the security branch at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: What effect did this torture have on Mr Gordhan that you could see, physical effect?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I could not see whether it had any physical effect on him. All that I could observe was that Mr Gordhan was a very aggressive person and his attitude was negative regarding the questions which were put to him. If I had to evaluate I would say that the suffocation had absolutely no affect on him.

The secrets with regard to the supply of investigations, names of informers and many other matters were in danger of being exposed and were indeed exposed to a great extent by the aforementioned mole. At that stage the armed struggle still waged forth and Operation Vula was in full swing. It was in order to combat the threat which was represented by Operation Vula that I acted accordingly.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, paragraph 9, I see that I have inserted something here and I just want to ask you if I have it correctly, did you act here under the order of a higher officer or upon your own initiative?

MR BOTHA: The order with regard to the interrogation of Mr Lalla and Mr Gordhan was based upon a request of the commander of the security branch of Durban at that stage.

MR VISSER: Who was he?

MR BOTHA: It was Brigadier Steyn, he is currently a general.

MR VISSER: But not the order to assault him?

MR BOTHA: No, that was my own decision.

MR VISSER: Very well and why did you do so?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson it was my opinion that this would be the only method in which to coerce Mr Gordhan to give the information.

MR VISSER: Continue with paragraph 10 please?

MR BOTHA: I did this as part of my opposition to the struggle and my acts were aimed against supporters of a liberation movement. What I did I did in order to protect the government and the interests of the National Party and to combat the revolutionary onslaught.

MR VISSER: May I just stop there for a moment. You know that it is part of the history and general knowledge that the struggle that we referred to during these amnesty applications by 1989 actually began to subside, isn't that so? Then there were negotiations or at least talk of negotiations and in 1990 there were already negotiations. Could you just tell the Committee Members and the Chairperson according to your insights as a member of the security branch whether the struggle had already subsided by that stage or whether it continued?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, although the negotiations had started at that stage there were two things. One, Operation Vula indicated that the ANC was not negotiating in good spirits. There was the SACP initiative of Vula to prepare a national revolution so that the country could be taken over by means of violence after the five year programme and then on the other hand the terrorism which took place in Natal over a period of time in terms of the intensity of the violence, in other words bomb explosions, this diminished but armed attacks, hand grenade attacks, such things increased and reached a high point in terms of statistics during 1992 and 1993 and against whom were these hand grenade attacks and other attacks aimed or between which parties did it take place. The target between the two involved groups indicated that it was IFP versus ANC and the primary targets in these cases were members of the IFP and not government institutions or government staff members.

MR VISSER: Therefore it is your summary that visible bomb attacks in public places and so forth diminished but attacks on people increased?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you've already stated during your evidence before Judge Mall and the two Committee Members who are seated here today that there are certain statistics and you provided these statistics?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: May I just see if I can lay my hands on the statistics directly for your information? Yes, it is a previous Exhibit D Chairperson, at page 8 which is the evidence of Mr Botha in the Ndaba and Shabalala matter and the statistics are 1990, 26th. These are armed attacks, not bomb attacks, armed attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I will have a look at those perhaps during the tea adjournment.

MR VISSER: Yes, there are only four of them, Chairperson. As it pleases you.

Very well, please proceed with paragraph 11?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, as such I believed bona fide that what I did fell within my express or implied authorisation.

MR VISSER: And you request amnesty then for the assault on Mr Gordhan, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Would you just proceed and just tell us immediately what you did afterwards? That was where Mr Lalla came into the picture.

MR BOTHA: Directly after I had ceased the interrogation of Mr Gordhan, I asked Marius Greyling because he had been deployed with Warrant Officer Basson, I asked him to work with Mr Lalla.

MR VISSER: Would you please begin at paragraph 1? This is Exhibit E. Page 2 of Exhibit E paragraph 1.

MR BOTHA: On the same date and immediately thereafter, after I had worked with Mr Gordhan, I also spoke to Mr Lalla. The reason why I interrogated him was in order to obtain information regarding the names and activities of certain persons who had been recruited internally by Operation Vula. This group of persons consisted out of Whites as well as Black persons. It was vital to the security branch in order to address Operation Vula completely to know who these persons were, who had been recruited as such, where they resided or where they were hiding and what their activities were and Chairperson, some of these names were not just the usual run of the mill names, these were the names of some very prominent figures who were children of politicians therefore it was necessary to know what their activities were. I spoke to Mr Lalla and initially he provided information up to a certain point where I noticed that he was holding back.

MR VISSER: Can you recall precisely what that information was that he did provide to you?

MR BOTHA: If I had to make a comparison between Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, the difference was that Mr Lalla offered his cooperation from the moment of his arrest, not necessarily with regard to all the questions that one would put to him, he did not necessarily answer all of them or answer all of them honestly but in eighty percent of all cases he cooperated.

MR VISSER: Now on this day in Bethlehem, according to you, he began to provide information to you?

MR BOTHA: I specifically questioned him regarding the names which were obtained from the documents and it was about where these persons had been recruited, upon which occasions and whether or not he had already established contact with these persons. If I recall correctly, an amount of R1000 per person was allocated and he had to hand over this money to them and it was also when he was discussing these names that he began to withhold regarding a specific aspect. I don't recall what that aspect was.

MR VISSER: Very well, continue.

MR BOTHA: I decided to use the same method that I had used with Mr Gordhan. In this case I was assisted by Mr Greyling.

MR VISSER: Not Duhr and Bothma as you have stated it here in your statement?

MR BOTHA: No I was assisted by Greyling and I cannot recall whether his hands were bound or not. He was wrapped in a blanket and I made use of the suffocation technique. Suddenly he began gasping for his breath and it appeared that he had had an asthma attack and it was unknown to me that he was an asthma sufferer. I called for an asthma pump and it then appeared that Lalla's asthma's pump had run empty that morning. I sent Greyling to the pharmacy which was situated in the same building as the security branch's offices and he went to fetch an asthma pump. I think Mr Lalla will give evidence that the asthma pump which was prescribed for him was for example a green pump but the one that the pharmacy gave was a blue asthma pump. Nonetheless, he could use this asthma pump safely. After we had given him the asthma pump he used it and recovered from his asthma attack. After that I did not interrogate him further.

MR VISSER: And your political motivation was the same in Mr Lalla's case as what it was in Mr Gordhan's case, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And with regard to the order from a superior officer it was also the same with Mr Lalla as what it had been with Mr Gordhan according to your evidence that you have already given?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you then request amnesty with regard to Mr Lalla for assault. Perhaps you should just state, the Chairperson asked you whether or not you noticed any physical effects of the assault on Mr Gordhan and you gave evidence that there was a noticeable physical effect of the effect on Mr Lalla, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Where there any other physical effects which you could notice on Mr Lalla as a result of the assault?

MR BOTHA: With the exception of the asthma attack there was nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Nel do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, I've just got one question for Mr Botha.

Mr Botha, if you can confirm, Mr Duhr will testify that during the interrogation of Mr Gordhan he was indeed present but he was tasked with taking notes of any answers or questions which were put or answers which were received and he will say that he was also not physically involved in the suffocation of the person but the other persons were Mr Bothma, Mr Greyling and yourself. Can you confirm that?

MR BOTHA: That would be true, Chairperson, one person is usually tasked with taking notes.

MR NEL: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson.

We were taken to Bethlehem because there was a shortage of space in Durban. I put it to you that this is a lie, that in my experience and Mr Chairperson, I've been in detention for many, many times from the period 1981 to 1990 and in that time for example at C.R. Swart Police Station alone, in 1981 there were some 25 Section 29 detainees at the same time in the police cells and I put it to you Mr Botha the real reason is that you didn't want any communication to take place in the event of any assault, perhaps even murder, between any detainee and family or other members and I put it to you also that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: Alright, let's hear your answer now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think otherwise it gets a bit cumbersome. What do you say to that, Mr Botha?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I will answer as follows, that in 1991 or 1981 before I came to Durban so I cannot be able to testify as to how many people were detained in those cells but if one looks at when the Act was drawn up there were certain prescriptions which had to be satisfied except for the reference of the place of detention, there were also visits from district surgeons and magistrates so I cannot accord with what Mr Gordhan says with regard to the reason for his detention in Bethlehem.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gordhan, if I could just follow up on something here?

Were you involved in the decision yourself personally for Mr Gordhan and Lalla to be sent to Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are telling us now is what you think the reason was?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, that is why I only answered the first part of the question with regard to 1981 and then generally how many people could be detained in one cell.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but if you don't know what the reason or if you weren't part of the decision to send the two gentlemen to Bethlehem, you don't know what the real reason is then. It may be that they wanted these particular detainees far apart or separate from their colleagues?

MR BOTHA: It may be so, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask a question, Chairperson?

Did you have any indication why Bethlehem was decided upon which was so remote from Natal?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, if I recall correctly all the other places where there were Section 29 cells all fall within the detentions in Natal.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, you may continue.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, for the information of the Committee and I put it to Mr Botha as well, that when I was taken on the evening of the 13th July out of Durban I was eventually taken to Newcastle and spent two or three nights in Newcastle. Were the cells in Newcastle destined to be Section 29 detention cells?

MR BOTHA: As far I know Newcastle does have Section 29 cells.

MR GORDHAN: So why wasn't I left in Newcastle?

MR BOTHA: I don't know why, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Let me tell you why and I put this to you, Mr Botha, that the real reason goes back to our racist past and that in the Free State, Mr Botha, Indians haven't been allowed for many, many decades and that this was the mindset which dictated that you or your colleagues decided that these so-called Indians must actually be taken to Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: I cannot comment on that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, the assault on myself relative to the murder of Ndaba and Shabalala amongst many others is a relatively minor assault. Why do you see fit in this context to disclose your role in this assault?

MR BOTHA: I have applied because the other members have applied. If you look at the date of my application it was on the last day otherwise I would never have applied for this assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct you have applied in respect of other various matters?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson. I applied, after then my other three colleagues applied.

MR GORDHAN: So if they had not applied you would not have applied?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: And therefore your inclination was not to make a full disclosure and breast of all the offences you were guilty of in terms of the Act under which we sit here?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I think it's a matter of argument this, my own legal team differ from me, I know I feel that I have already received indemnity for matters of assault.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, the question is, is this confirmation of your inclination not to make full disclosure?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I've already explained, in my opinion I have already had indemnity for assault and it was not necessary to apply for amnesty. When my colleagues applied they informed me and consequently I supported them in their amnesty applications and I submitted a supplementary document.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, I heard your evidence on a previous occasion in respect of Ndaba and Shabalala and I heard your explanation of your long background and security related activities in Namibia and South Africa. What is your personal philosophy and on the question of assaulting person in detention? Is it something that you think about carefully, is it something that you weigh up very carefully, taking into account the individual concerned, the circumstances and in particular the law which applies to these detentions?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, a stage arose during the activities of the security branch where we worked outside the law but believed that we were acting correctly and that it was necessary that we had to do what we had to do and consequently the use of violence with interrogation and in some instances it was necessary.

MR GORDHAN: My question is about whether is this a matter -I'll make it easier for you, some of you sometimes try to do when I was at the receiving end of the questions, is this a matter that you acted upon impulsively, in other words if the mood struck you, you went ahead and you assaulted the detainee concerned or is it something that you weighed up very carefully and only on the rare occasion did you use assault as a detention or interrogation technique?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, the assault of a detainee or the coercion of a detainee would not necessarily be planned. The circumstances could determine if such a decision would be taken to use coercion to let them speak.

MR GORDHAN: How often in your experience which is a vast one in interrogating detainees did this kind of circumstance arise and I suggest to you that it arose fairly frequently?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot attach a number to it but it was many cases.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you, Mr Botha, that your inclination given your history and training is in fact to at the first instance to attempt to assault a detainee?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I cannot accord with that.

MR GORDHAN: You made reference earlier on when we talked about the availability of cells for detention of Section 29 detainees, you made mention of the fact that an Act of parliament, be it an undemocratic parliament at that point in time, was one which prescribed the conditions under which a detainee needed to be kept. You also made mention of the fact that magistrates and sometimes district surgeons had access to detainees. Now I've been visited by many magistrates in my time, I have laid many complaints in my time and I put it to you that the security branch and you in particular actually never took magistrates seriously.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, we worked within that framework and if we manipulated the system to our advantage then it was so.

MR GORDHAN: So you admit, Mr Botha, that magistrates were normal and a sop and a cover up for what were essentially elicit activities on the part of the security branch then?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, that is not what I testified. What I say is the visiting magistrate will put a question to the detainee which he will put in writing and when there is an allegation of an assault the magistrate will react that such an assault be investigated and the place of detention was visited by the magistrate so he will physically make an observation. So what I am saying is what I saw from the magistrates' reports was that they fulfilled their function.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think what Mr Gordhan, one of the aspects of Mr Gordhan's question is that you as members of the security police who had dealings with Section 29 detainees didn't let the visits of the magistrates hinder you in acting unlawfully towards the detainees, in other words it didn't in any way stop you from assaulting them. Instead of beating them over the head with a stick you would use the suffocation method or some other method where there wouldn't be any physical marks left?

MR BOTHA: That is very well described, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I think the thrust of his question was subtly different as well. He said essentially that you didn't take any notice of those visits to any great extent, that's how he put it if I understood him correctly?

MR BOTHA: Yes, it is as he put the question, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: So you're confirming Mr Botha that whatever detainees told magistrates, they in fact were never taken seriously, that the security branch has complied with the requirements of the politicians at the time i.e. to go through certain processes but at the end of the day no impact of any sort was made on your conduct.

MR BOTHA: Please repeat the last part of the question?

MR GORDHAN: At the end of the day reports from magistrates, reports from district surgeons, complaints from the detainees made no difference to the conduct of the special branch?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, how much of your attitude, which I'm going to come back to a little later and your conduct is actually related to the fact that you in fact didn't want apartheid to end and you didn't want negotiations to work?

MR BOTHA: The question has two parts, the first one I can answer. Yes at all times we had to protect the government, keep them in the chair and with regard to the negotiations not succeeding, we did not have any say in that but years afterwards we found out that we were sold out by a government who negotiated our lives away and did not have the courage to make a stand at the negotiations table but this was years afterwards. Yes at all costs we had to maintain the government in power.

MR GORDHAN: Now I'm putting it to you Mr Botha that is not maintaining the government in power, I'm saying to you that your goal in life at that time and perhaps even now went beyond and that is that you wanted to sustain a system of racial superiority and domination, called above that?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, not personally. My personal ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: Why then do you say that the government sold you out?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, if I may explain, the question - once again this is a double edged question, the one is personal and the question is why do I think that the government sold us out. The first, I was part of a system that through the years through birth up to 1990, with the release of Mr Nelson Mandela which was the beginning of the negotiation process, the National Party was in power in this country and separate development or apartheid was a way of life, it was the order of the day. The victims of that system, many of those people are in the country today. We ourselves are the victims of that system. I may have personally felt otherwise about certain of the government's political reasons and motivations and consequently I feel different about it and I say I feel that the government sold out this country with the negotiations, that is my personal opinion.

MR GORDHAN: Let's leave that for a political debate at some stage. Mr Botha, as a result of all your admissions, do you feel today any remorse or regret or do you feel it opportune to apologise to the families and individuals concerned for the manner in which you conducted yourself in murdering people, assaulting people and whatever else you've done?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, in hindsight if we can turn the clock back to where we have started, everybody, not only the victims and the victims' families of these tragic events, we the offenders are also victims of the system and as such the whole country is a victim, directly or indirectly and one wants forgiveness for what one has done and that is why we apply for amnesty. The reconciliation which has to come must come from both sides and that is why we request amnesty, we want to be forgiven for what we have done and the reasons for what we have done are supported by going through that whole process and ask and in repetition, two or three years we had applied to bring out those memories and just as it is a sensitive matter for the victims and their families, it is the same for us. Every time we are taken back to the scene and back to the decision which was taken. One cannot close down here now and say let's continue with the new future but one thing I can say of this process is that everybody has to be honest and this process has brought us closer to God and only He can forgive at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, would this be a convenient time to take a short tea adjournment?

MR GORDHAN: Yes, sure.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short tea adjournment, approximately twenty minutes and then we will resume after that. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha, I'd just remind you that you are still under your former oath?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: (cont)

Mr Botha, when I was arrested and finally after some hours taken to C.R. Swart Police Station, I think to the 14th Floor, I requested to make a phone call to my lawyer to inform him of my detention. I was told that no such thing would be allowed.

MR VISSER: Is there a ..(indistinct) that this is the witness who told him that, Chairperson?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I imagine that the security branch works as a disciplined unit and I'm saying I didn't say that Mr Botha said that to me, I said I was told that no such thing would be allowed. Who told me that I don't know, there were many comings and goings from the office in which I was kept because at some stage it might have been the intention of the special branch to abduct me, kidnap me?

MR BOTHA: I would not know, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Why wasn't I formally detained in terms of Section 29, given the usual notice, warnings etc. etc. upon my arrival at C.R. Swart Police Station?

MR BOTHA: I would not know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Gordhan, perhaps before we proceed?

Were you at any stage - I know you're not giving evidence now, but were you at any stage formally detained in terms of Section 29?

MR GORDHAN: Only late in the afternoon of the 13th after having been kept the whole night in an office.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you were taken to Newcastle?

MR GORDHAN: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, are you aware of the fact that your present National Deputy Commissioner, Mr Morgan Chetty, actually made enquiries about my whereabouts sometime earlier on the day on the 13th July?

MR BOTHA: I'm not aware of that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Well did you know that it was him that finally told my family that I'm in fact alive and in your hands?

MR BOTHA: I was not aware of that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Are you aware of the fact that he was reprimanded by either you or others in the senior ranks of the security branch for having disclosed the fact that I was alive and in your hands?

MR BOTHA: I did not know about that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: You have not said in the evidence you've given now but in previous evidence before the Committee, you've indicated that Mr Charles Ndaba gave you information about the flat in Brickfield Road, is that true?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Who was the person who had the flat under surveillance on your behalf?

MR BOTHA: Is this relevant Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, what flat is this? I wasn't involved in the previous hearing.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, under this underground operation a number of premises were used.

CHAIRPERSON: Sort of, safe houses type of thing?

MR GORDHAN: And so on, yes and Mr Botha is very well aware of this particular one, he has made prior reference I think that's Mr Lax and Mrs Bosman might be able to confirm? The purpose of this question Chairperson, is to establish whether full disclosure has been made in respect of my arrest which is tied to my assault and which is tied to the rest of Mr Ndaba so all these interconnected events I don't one can clinically separate the one from the other.

So Mr Botha, I put the question back to you. Who, from your side, that is the security branch had this flat under surveillance?

MR BOTHA: Warrant Officer van der Westhuizen.

MR GORDHAN: And was this warrant officer also the person in the flat when I entered it and was accosted and arrested?

MR BOTHA: I believe so, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: So he was the person who held the gun to my head at that time?

MR BOTHA: I would not know, I was not there, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: From which point in time was that flat under surveillance?

MR BOTHA: For quite a while Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Can you pin an approximate time to it? A week before, ten days before, two months before?

MR BOTHA: I cannot attach a specific time to it. We at least were aware of the flat for about five weeks, five to six weeks before your arrest and from Charles and Mbusu Shabalala on the Saturday together.

MR GORDHAN: So both Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala attested to the fact or rather gave you information that there was this flat that someone like myself was actually using it and so on?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I have not finished my answer yet. I said from that date I have testified that the flat was under permanent surveillance, that was my previous testimony and Lieutenant du Preez and I went into that flat illegally and removed certain documentation from there, that was my evidence.

MR GORDHAN: Okay, let's just pin the facts down a little bit more. You said you became aware of the fact and I just want to understand you clearly, obviously from Mr Ndaba five weeks before the arrest. True? You're also saying that sometime after that point in time which means for several weeks, on and off or perhaps continuously, that flat was under surveillance by yourself?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: You're also saying that finally when Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala were in your hands that both of them actually told you that there was such a flat and it was used for various things?

MR BOTHA: Mr Ndaba told me Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Now you were given instructions on the 11th after your meeting in Pretoria with the then General van der Merwe that no arrests would be undertaken before the 16th July, is that true?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, we are going over evidence that I have already rendered in detail, it's not that I do not want to testify to this but we are revisiting the scene and it does not make sense to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this very relevant to what we have to know, Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson, it is and in time we will get to the relevance and I believe that as a victim I have the right ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I'm just asking.

MR GORDHAN: Without taking undue time to put certain facts before you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could answer the question?

MR BOTHA: Will you repeat the question please?

MR GORDHAN: According to your previous evidence on the 11th July after having or when you actually met General van der Merwe in Pretoria you were told that no action, therefore no arrests would happen or could happen or should happen before the 16th July, is that true?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, my evidence was that the request was that no arrests would be made other than from the 16th.

MR GORDHAN: Now I put it to you that Aness Sanka and myself who were both arrested at about the same time were in fact arrested around 10 o'clock on the morning of the 12th July, would you confirm that?

MR BOTHA: I would not know exactly what time, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't deny that?

MR BOTHA: It's possible.

MR GORDHAN: I also put it to you that having had knowledge of the flat for by your admission some five weeks and having had it under surveillance for several weeks and having conceded that you've actually entered the flat, the point I'll come back to that my arrest, Aness Sanka's arrest and the arrest of several other operatives within this Vula Operation as it later became known was in fact part of a well thought through planned and coordinated set of arrests, would you agree?

MR BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Why?

MR BOTHA: The arrests which led to your own arrest was preceded by that of Mr Siphiwe Nyanda who after he became aware of the surveillance of him, he was arrested and thereafter your arrest followed.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Chairperson and Mr Botha I actually put it to you that that is not correct, that given the whole history of special branch operation and given the order of arrests of myself, Mr Sanka and then subsequently others and Mr Lalla can confirm his a little later, at about 12 o'clock on the same day, in fact that these were premeditated arrests, all designed to happen in an organised and coordinated way in defiance of the order that you received in Pretoria?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson that is not correct.

MR GORDHAN: Let's come back to Mr Ndaba. Did he ever in his so-called liaison with you prior to his arrest actually identify me by my true name?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that's a lie, he didn't know my true name.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, Mr Pravine is very well known to many people and when you communicate in codes one does not expect that you will not be addressed by your code name, your code name was well known.

MR GORDHAN: What was my code name?

MR BOTHA: I cannot recall any more.

MR GORDHAN: Perhaps you weren't even told?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, the documents are available here that's been handed in to this Commission in previous evidence. We can always go back to it if you want to know what your code name was.

MR GORDHAN: No, I know what's my code name, thank you. Where did Mr Ndaba stay while he was here from the period 3rd February approximately until his arrest on the 6th, the 7th of July?

MR BOTHA: In Durban, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Where?

MR BOTHA: Several places.

MR GORDHAN: Can you name them?

MR BOTHA: Amongst others at Brickfield where you were arrested.

MR GORDHAN: And?

MR BOTHA: The exact addresses are not known to me any more.

MR GORDHAN: I'm not that unreasonable. All I want to know is which suburbs did he live in?

MR BOTHA: If I recall correctly I think amongst others there was KwaMashu, there was an address in one of the Indian residential areas, I cannot recall exactly, Chairperson. I may confusing them for rendezvous points from where you met frequently, was a DPC.

MR GORDHAN: But did he put it to you that most of his time in Durban he had to spend at the flat in Brickfield Road?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I cannot recall that detail.

MR GORDHAN: Well I put to you that he in fact spent most of his time in the Meerbank area with a family that he actually lived with, you would have never confirmed that of course.

MR BOTHA: It's possible Chairperson, I cannot recall all the addresses.

MR GORDHAN: I actually put it to you that he never told you that, that those people were never visited by you or interrogated in any way whatsoever. In other words Mr Ndaba never told you everything?

MR BOTHA: I cannot confirm Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you. Where did he indicate what was a rendezvous point between myself and him?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Gordhan, is this - it doesn't seem to be relevant to the subject matter of the application namely the torture upon yourself. You know what Mr Ndaba did and what he told them, how relevant is that going to be for us in arriving at a decision in this matter?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, these are all facts that the public is not aware of. The relevance is the fact that Mr Ndaba's arrest led subsequently to my arrest. As the other Committee Members will confirm for you, Chairperson, the timing of the arrest and whether he was an informer or not are highly contentious matters in the full range of hearings that are before the Committee at this point in time. It is not my intention to test your patience, I hope it is not your intention to stop me from trying to explore particulars ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But there's got to be some sort of limit, we can't sit here on all sorts of surrounding or matters that haven't got - that have no direct impact on the actual subject matter of the application. I'll give you freeway but please bear in mind we've got other applicants to come and we have a time ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I don't mean to be discourteous, but I think you'll be doing me and the country a disservice if we're not given an adequate opportunity to address.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Because the last thing I'd like is the impression to be created, Chairperson, that the ex-policemen have a free ride ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's not that at all, it's just a question of being relevant to the matter.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, if I may say, it is very interesting to me that I sit here as an amnesty applicant and the same Mr Gordhan opposite is not an amnesty applicant. Nowhere ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not get into an argument. Mr Gordhan, you may proceed with your questioning.

MR GORDHAN: Just for the record, Chairperson, I am an amnesty applicant, I'm one of about 37 ANC persons who applied en bloc for amnesty and I suppose when your Committee gets to that point you have to do the same with me as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, you may carry on.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, you indicated earlier that you raided the flat at Brickfield and you indicated that you extracted information from there. What information in relation to what became known as Operation Vula did you take from that flat?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm now going to object. We are wandering so far afield now, with great respect, these matters weren't even asked in the Ndaba matter, Chairperson. With respect, I must object to these questions.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, it obviously - this line of questioning will invite the kind of objection that we've just heard. The relevance here is to check whether the information being placed before the Committee, even if they haven't been tested before are in fact valid and whether there's been full disclosure? Surely these things must be tested in some form?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, in reply ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: That is the flat in question that I operated from. I knew what was in that flat, I knew what I had left there, I was the joint secretary of the Vula Committee in the greater Durban area and I know what information was where, up to a point and surely the Committee must be interested in that?

MR VISSER: Chairperson in reply, Mr Gordhan has now illustrated to us that it has absolutely no relevance to his assault and my objection stands Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: So see, Chairperson, my assault was in the course of interrogation. Interrogation was about extracting information from me and this is about information but I leave it to your ruling, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You see it's common cause that you were arrested and interrogated. The applicants do not apply for amnesty in respect of the arrest but only in respect of the assault performed upon you and Mr Lalla during the interrogation so as far as the relevance is concerned in this particular matter for this Committee, all that we're focusing on is whether or not there's been a full disclosure in respect of the actual assault.

MR GORDHAN: No Chairperson, I will accept your ruling with the reservation that I am in fact being limited in my rights in this matter but let's leave that for now.

Mr Botha, let's take you back to Bethlehem and the day on which you said you came into the office where I was present with Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma and you used the words as it was translated to me in English that you worked with me and that I was not prepared to supply information. Mr Botha, you hardly spent three minutes in that office when you walked in?

MR BOTHA: I spent about ten minutes there with you.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, I put it to you that all you said, you asked - fired a couple of questions, swore at me and walked out.

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: You then said to the Committee that you then decided to use coercion. Even if you take your version of ten minutes being used to question me and it wasn't only about the so-called hour that you questioned me, your decision to apply coercion was a very swift one?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson. Your attitude was aggressive and one of arrogance and you did not want to cooperate and my decision was to use violence to extract information from you.

MR GORDHAN: Well, I put it to you that I was extremely calm, I was extremely collected, I was certainly not arrogant and I certainly didn't cooperate. Will that be a fairer description?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson except for the last statement there.

MR GORDHAN: Well the word cooperation for us means different things as you know, being detainee and security policeman but I still submit to you that you spent less than three minutes there.

Let's move to another point on the day. At about 5 or 5.30 it began to become dark on the day on which the assault took place. These are the events that took place as I remember them and I'm putting them to you. You were not there at the beginning when the two gentlemen who were with me asked me to stand up, face the window of that particular office and then walked out of the office. Subsequently, within that half a minute or so a hood was put over my head and I was wrapped in something, some rope or equivalent was tied around me. I was dropped very gently to the ground. The hood was lifted to cover only my eyes so I could only recognise you by your voice and you then used not the hood or a towel as you suggested, but you actually used some rubber or plastic material to suffocate me by covering my nose and mouth. Is that a fair description of the events that you were aware of?

MR BOTHA: As far as it is applicable to me, yes.

MR GORDHAN: Do you recall your extreme aggression and violent mood, the swearing and abusing that you subjected to me at that time?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Did you remember the fact that you said that I would never see my family again?

MR BOTHA: That is possible.

MR GORDHAN: Was it your intention at that point in time to carry on the torture up to the point that you might have killed me?

MR BOTHA: No, that is a general statement to make.

MR GORDHAN: I beg your pardon?

MR BOTHA: I said this was a general statement to make. In order to influence you that I was serious.

MR GORDHAN: Are you aware of the fact that that assault amongst other things during the detention led to the development of high blood pressure, hypertension?

MR BOTHA: I will not know when your high blood pressure started.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that your questions were only to a very limited extent about The Owl phenomenon that you referred to. That in fact much of your questions were in respect of the so-called Tongaat Conference?

MR BOTHA: That is possible that other questions were asked which formed part of the main purpose of the interrogation.

MR GORDHAN: I also put it to you that you spent a fair amount of your time questioning me about who else was involved in the underground structures that I was involved in?

MR BOTHA: It is possible that I may have asked those questions, yes.

MR GORDHAN: So a substantial amount of time, Mr Botha, was actually spent asking about issues that were already public knowledge at that point in time. Who was involved in the underground structure by your own admission you knew from documentation taken from one place or the other and by then most of them were arrested. The Tongaat Conference was public knowledge and so information that was already well known was being "extracted" from the detainee using this reasonably harsh method of assault?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, there was an introductory piece to the interrogation in order to determine the state of mind of the detainee at that stage.

MR GORDHAN: Were you aware of the fact that by that time I had already in detention been shown copies of newspapers by the Black policemen so I was fully aware of what newspapers like the Citizen and so on already had to say about the Tongaat Conference, about the arrests and about the negotiations process?

MR BOTHA: No, I'm not aware of that.

MR GORDHAN: I also put it to you that when you say in your more recent statement that the assault lasted for ten minutes that is not true that in fact it lasted between 30 and possibly 50 minutes?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, then I don't understand. A short while ago it was said that I spent a total of three minutes there.

MR GORDHAN: No well let me help you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think - sorry, just correct me if I'm wrong Mr Gordhan, that what Mr Gordhan says that initially when you came in you were only initially there for about three minutes or for a very short while before the assault started.

MR GORDHAN: There were two interactions on Mr Botha, Chairperson, as you correctly point out. The first was the visit and working with as he calls it in his statement and the second was the assault itself.

MR BOTHA: Yes, that makes sense, that is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Okay, so the 30 to 50 minutes makes sense as well?

MR BOTHA: No, negative, my recollection is approximately 10 minutes in total.

MR GORDHAN: You then say that this assault took place by virtue of a decision you made on your own and from no higher order?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gordhan, if I may just intervene?

You say the whole process took ten minutes from the time that you first went into the room where Mr Gordhan was until you decided to stop suffocating him?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which means that you must have arrived at your decision to apply force in a very short time?

MR BOTHA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you arrive at that decision in such a short while, I mean surely any interrogator couldn't arrive at a final decision in three or five minutes, decide whether a person is going to cooperate or not? Why didn't you give it longer, why didn't you carry on questioning him for an hour or two or two days even before you resorted to violence?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps the questioner to whom this aspect has been allocated could examine this better but my understanding is that he did not want to offer any cooperation voluntarily and that is why I came to that decision rather swiftly.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, you'll note that I actually spent three and a half months in detention subjecting myself to the so-called persuasion of the security branch and here Mr Botha you are saying that within split seconds you made a decision to assault as opposed to leave it to the gentlemen who are dealing with me to extract through persuasion this information. Are you saying that they were ineffective in the way they interrogated me?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, once again the reason why I did this was to obtain information with regard to the identity of the mole, it was necessary, it was vital for me to obtain such information quickly.

MR GORDHAN: Did you finally get that information?

MR BOTHA: Who would want to know?

MR GORDHAN: We'll tell you sometime. Why did you actually commit those assaults when on the 14th July in your previous evidence you indicated that you were told by headquarters that no prosecutions will be pursued in respect of these arrests?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, once again I will reiterate. The reason was to obtain information with regard to the identity of the informer or mole within the security branch.

MR GORDHAN: A slight variation of an earlier question, the information about Tongaat Conference etc. etc., apart from the mole story, was already in the public domain and yet, I mean that you could have asked in the three minutes that you were with me. Why use the assault as the mechanism through which you wanted to explore those questions?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, with any interrogation there would be an introductory section. The types of questions and Mr Gordhan has reminded me of the types of questions which were asked or at least the subject of interrogation which served as the introductory aspect. The purpose of his interrogation by me on that day was in order to determine the identity of the informer.

MR GORDHAN: When did you report to your seniors that you had committed this assault?

MR BOTHA: I never reported it to them.

MR GORDHAN: So neither your commanders within your so-called region or at headquarters were told that you had committed the assault?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR GORDHAN: Was this common practice?

MR BOTHA: Well in terms of assault I would say yes.

MR GORDHAN: Would you not consider the mode of assault as excessive compared to the kind of information that you actually wanted to extract but you could you have well tried the route of persuasion?

MR BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that your assault was committed as a result of a culture that developed amongst some of the policemen at that time that it was as a result of almost an habitual practice as opposed to a well thought out decision?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I cannot agree with that statement.

MR GORDHAN: Were you surprised by the fact that there was some weeks later a court application brought by my family to restrain the police from assaulting me?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, at that stage it was already general practice.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was general practice?

MR BOTHA: Approximately all Section 29 detainees families would as a standard practice bring about such an application.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that this was no standard practice, that this was as a result of information that I sent out from Bethlehem notwithstanding the fact that I was there so far from Durban that in fact I had been assaulted?

MR BOTHA: That is possible, I wouldn't know the facts.

MR GORDHAN: Were you aware of the fact that I had a line of communication to the outside?

MR BOTHA: Yes we have the documents, your communications.

MR LAX: No, he's talking about aware of the fact that he was communicating from Bethlehem to the outside.

MR BOTHA: We are in possession of the documentation. His communications from his cell to the outside, his communications with others and with Mac Maharaj, the persons whom they thought they could use as couriers were actually policemen who conveyed this information to us.

MR GORDHAN: We'll contest that but leave that to another time, Mr Botha. On the 25th July Mr Maharaj was arrested as you know and in his possession the police who arrested him found a draft of the ANC's proposal which later became part of the Pretoria Accord on the 6th August for a unilateral suspension of armed actions, are you aware of that?

MR BOTHA: No, I'm not aware of that.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that your seniors were aware of that, that probably you as central figure were aware of that and notwithstanding the fact that you knew that the ANC was about to declare in the next round on negotiations, unilaterally a suspension of armed actions you still insisted on assaulting detainees of the ANC?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson at that stage nothing was officially known from the ANC or SACP side. In my own mind I believed that this Operation Vula was a 5 year plan which would establish a national revolution which would topple the country into absolute chaos so at that stage nothing was known and I cannot agree with the statement put by Mr Gordhan.

MR GORDHAN: Are you denying the fact that on the 6th August 1990 as part of the Pretoria Accord which was part of our history the ANC actually submitted this document as their proposal which was accepted and included in the accord that there will be a unilateral suspension of armed actions?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, what became known later is now history. This took place in the times to which you have referred as something that I don't know about.

MR GORDHAN: No, I'm talking about that time, the 25th July is right in the middle of that period and I'm suggesting to you that it was your vindictiveness that led to the assault and it had nothing to do with your theory of revolutionary struggle?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, what happened with Mr Maharaj's arrest is something I don't know about.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, as a result of that assault and the application to the then Supreme Court in Durban on or about the 16th August initiated by my family, the then Minister of Law and Order served in a letter/statement that no assault was committed and notwithstanding that, he would still give an undertaking that no other assaults would take place. Now did the Minister say that no assault had taken place on the basis of information provided to him by people like yourself?

MR BOTHA: That would be so.

MR GORDHAN: So the Minister was mislead?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Was that common practice as well?

MR BOTHA: As I've already said I did not inform anyone that I had been involved in an assault on Mr Gordhan thus it would have been a denial on my behalf in such an investigation.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, that would conclude my questions and I want to make three comments if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Gordhan.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, although I haven't been the latitude to explore certain areas I want to submit to the Committee that Mr Botha is not making a full disclosure particularly about the arrest and I believe that the facts around that have been concocted to suit his particular version that he wants to put to the Committee now. I believe that Charles Ndaba did not break down completely, nor was he an agent of the security branch at that time.

And secondly, Chairperson, by virtue of all answers that we've heard there was no political motive for the assault, that this was a personal choice made, this was part of a historical pattern and style of work and that it was a manifestation of personal vindictiveness in a previous position to violence against persons like myself.

Thirdly, that there was no proportionality in the relationship between the information requested and the techniques of assault used in that point in time.

I conclude by saying that this matter is inextricably linked to the matters of Mbuso Shabalala and Charles Ndaba and that when the Committee has the full facts before it and has considered them it can determine whether to grant Mr Botha his amnesty or not. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Gordhan, what we'll do is, Mr Lalla will be given opportunity to question this application then there will be re-examination, then all the other applicants will testify and everybody will be given an opportunity to question them and then at the end of that, you and Mr Lalla as well as the applicants will be given a full opportunity to make submissions to the Panel for us to take into consideration in our deliberations.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you for your guidance, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lalla, do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LALLA: Yes. I came here with the intention of not asking any questions and prior to my meeting I went to meet the applicants themselves and I wish them well. Why am I saying this, why am I doing this? Is it I must search for the truth and I think the truth around what took place and what were the events is important because I believe that Mr Botha over here is trying an impression or trying to create division in terms of what he regards as cooperation and he tortures, agent and he kills, so I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Initially I came here but with no sense of hatred, no sense of anger and I felt that he is continuously throwing a spanner in the works to create division. I'm going to ask him a few questions.

Mr Botha, how many days was I in the country before I was arrested?

MR BOTHA: I think one or two days.

MR LALLA: I was here - he knows me quite well so he'll speak English to me. I'll put it to you it was one day, I slept here in South Africa one night.

Were you aware that I was coming into the country?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR LALLA: Were you aware of the task that I was about to perform?

MR BOTHA: No, you told us that.

MR LALLA: I like this. The reason why I'm asking is that you said four, five weeks ago, prior to the incident when we got arrested, Charles Ndaba had made contact with you and informed you of developments taking place, is that true?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LALLA: Don't you see some contradiction in this process?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR LALLA: Okay, I'll leave that hanging there. You said that you were aware of the means, you were aware of the people that I was working with and that is why you wanted to interrogate me or that is why you took this decision to subject me to. Were you aware of the names and the real names of those individuals who I was working with.

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, that was the purpose behind my interrogation so that you could explain it to me.

MR LALLA: I will put it to you, you said over here a few minutes ago, I put it to you that you are lying. You said over here that there were members of politician's family of the Nationalist Party who was in some way linked with the ANC and you said I was aware of the details. I am putting it to you that on the disks, that which was seized in one of the residences at one of the houses they had the names and the real names and you were aware of it when you subjected me to this torture.

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I think that Mr Lalla is mistaken regarding the circumstances. If I may explain, Mr Lalla told me precisely when he met Gillian Duhr in Lusaka when she was introduced to him, he explained the circumstances and that is why I went to Cape Town afterwards and recruited her under a false flag.

MR LALLA: I have met Gillian Duhr as an acquaintance who came to an IDASA meeting. She was not an agent.

MR BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, the documents will indicate that.

MR LALLA: But what I'm indicating to you, what I'm indicating to you, what I'm trying to request from you over here is that if you say that you were unaware of the details then perhaps I can to some extent understand the circumstances that we were subjected to. What I'm saying over here is that you were aware of all the people that came to Lusaka in 1989, was it? And all those people who came to Lusaka you had the names of those individuals and therefore I find it a bit confusing in the sense that one, you know the people that came to Lusaka. Two, you have the disk with the names and the real names of the individuals. How did you know that she was there? How did you know that her name was on the disk?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, the information which was obtained during the investigation and which referred directly to Mr Lalla's own handling of these persons. All the particulars were not embodied in those documents regarding their activities and details and he had to colour the picture further. That is why I interrogated him.

MR LALLA: So you are now admitting that you knew the names, the real names of all those individuals that I was supposed to have alleged to have contacted.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, once again I will say, there was a document upon which the names appeared and there was reference to an amount of R1000 that you had to hand over to them. The rendezvous point regarding where and when and so forth, all the particulars regarding the specific individuals were not contained within the document. Once again, that document forms part of the record of documents which has been handed up to the Committee if I recall correctly and those particulars which were found lacking, Mr Lalla was supposed to provide to me.

MR LALLA: Are you aware that I don't have a history or medical history of asthma?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, I did not know that.

MR LALLA: Are you aware I've never had a history of asthma?

MR BOTHA: Well I'm not aware of that, as far as I know.

MR LALLA: But why did you prescribe a pump to me?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, because you said you were an asthma sufferer at the time of your attack in Bethlehem when you suffered an asthma attack, you said that your asthma pump was in your cell and that it was empty. I sent Marius Greyling to the pharmacy to fetch an asthma pump and after you had used it you recovered.

MR LALLA: I want to put this to you, are you aware that I was taken to the Free State Hospital for a brain scan?

MR BOTHA: Negative.

MR LALLA: How is it possible? There are medical records that I was taken to the Free State Hospital for a brain scan?

MR BOTHA: That may be so but I'm not personally aware of that.

MR LALLA: It was as a direct result of what took that day?

MR BOTHA: Negative, I'm not aware of that.

MR LALLA: That's all Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lalla. Mr Visser do you have any re-examination?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR LAX: If you could just bear with me Chair, I just want to check something before I go ahead?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, while you're looking. Mr Botha, were Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla the only two of the people who were arrested on that occasion on the 12th, the only two to be transferred to Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: I don't know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether any of the other persons that were arrested on the 12th that's part of that operation, if I can call it that, were transferred out of Durban for detention in other centres other than Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just one aspect, Chair.

The evidence you gave us in the beginning that these people were transferred because there wasn't space to keep them, you don't really know that at all, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson and I also provided an explanation as to why they were in Bethlehem.

MR LAX: The fact is you don't know why they were transferred, why did you give us a fairly explicit reason why they were transferred to Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, as detainees who were or if detainees were detained outside Durban it would mean only one thing, we would not detain persons outside Durban if there was place here. We would only detain people outside Durban in terms of Section 29 detention if there wasn't any room.

MR LAX: But you see, Mr Botha, you've already given us other reasons and agreed with reasons put to you by Mr Gordhan that often one of the reasons why people would be held far away from Durban would be to keep them incommunicado for example. You agreed with him on that?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that may be for a singular occasion.

MR LAX: Yes and it can be very disorientating to be kept far away from where you normally are which would facilitate your interrogation? That's quite normal part of interrogation process, that's why you blindfold people?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: There's a lot of other reasons why they were transferred and you bear no knowledge whatsoever of that real underlying reasons of that decision because you weren't part of it?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: So why did you give us the impression that that was the reason when you had no knowledge, you should have in fact said to us I don't know, I wasn't part of that decision?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, I must have answered it that way but I didn't. I gave an explanation as to why they were detained outside Durban and you were recall that Mr Gordhan has referred specifically to the case in 1985 when more than 20 people were kept together in a cell.

MR LAX: Yes, the fact of the matter is that you had no reason or no understanding of why he was sent to Bethlehem?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, there's no reason for me to mislead you as to why Mr Gordhan would be detained anywhere other than Durban.

MR LAX: You told us that your sole purpose of going there was to question Mr Gordhan about The Owl, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And yet on what he's put to you, you spent very little time on that issue with him?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, once again I will say the entire process of his interrogation was about ten minutes long. It was very clear that he was not going to cooperate. When I asked him about the owl he denied any knowledge about it, he denied any knowledge of who the person was, he denied everything regarding the person. Even though there were documents which indicated that he would know who the person was.

MR LAX: Now you made your decision to torture him very, very quickly, even on your own admission?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Why bother to torture him at all when it was so clear to you that he wasn't going to cooperate?

MR BOTHA: Because I wanted to know the identity of The Owl.

MR LAX: But it must have been clear to you, Mr Botha, that this man was not likely to cooperate with you at all. His whole attitude his "houding" was such that he was aggressive, he was non-cooperative, he wasn't going to give you anything.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, if one makes use of a technique of coercion, it often has the effect that even though his attitude may be non-cooperative, he would ultimately make the information known.

MR LAX: In terms of your documentation you haven't made any mention of swearing at him, of threatening his life, why was that?

MR BOTHA: It was not important to me to insert that.

MR LAX: Well isn't it a component of the offences for which you apply for amnesty, which was subtly different from the physical assault itself?

MR BOTHA: No, not in my opinion.

MR LAX: I see. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you'll be able to answer me but you drive all the way from Durban to Bethlehem to come and extract very important information, vital information according to what you say, there's somebody in your organisation undermining it etc. so it's very important organisation, you drive the whole way from Durban to Bethlehem, you then interrogate Mr Gordhan for obviously a very short while, less than ten minutes because the suffocation process must have taken a few minutes in itself and then you torture him for, on your version, also less than ten minutes and the whole procedure comes to an end after ten minutes. It seems extremely quick, you know one would have imagined that first of all the interrogation as suggested by Mr Lax would have been much longer, more questions and then even the torture would have been more sustained, take a break, come back again, carry on, until the person is reduced to talking but it seems very strange that taking into account the importance of the information you were trying to get out of the victim, the fact that you had travelled so far, it's all over in ten minutes? I mean I should imagine that most people who are interrogated and who are subjected to torture initially uncooperative, that's why there's torture and we've heard on a number of occasions matters concerning torture where the torture process has endured, often it's short but it's often endured until there's absolutely, the interrogator is absolutely sure that there's no chance of any cooperation but it seems very premature to have stopped in such a short while.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I can explain as follows. I don't know for how long Carl Duhr and the other members ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm talking now about the moles, you said they didn't - their brief wasn't to get the information about the mole, they were getting the general information, Operation Vula etc., but you came specifically for this vital information on the mole?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The identity of the mole.

MR BOTHA: And I think they will give evidence about that.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet it's all done and shot and finished and filed away in ten minutes?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: You see, if I could just add, Chairperson, the most important bit of information in terms of his interrogation was actually the mole?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: You guys knew everything else and you were beginning to get more and more information as time went by as you were able to decode the documents and the computer's information in your possession. So the most important reason and really, the only reason for you to go there was the mole issue, they were handling all the rest which was already well known anyway?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I think that Captain Duhr and Mr Bothma will themselves be able to explain or give evidence regarding what they questioned Mr Gordhan about and whether they questioned him about the mole. I was specifically tasked to obtain that information because it was necessary. Now their interrogation took place over a period of time and they will be able to give evidence regarding what his attitude was. My observation was that he was non-cooperative, it was quick, I didn't have time to spend days undertaking interrogation and applying methods of coercion to him in order to obtain information. I needed that information quickly. The visit to Bethlehem was not directed only at him but also at Mr Lalla who possessed other information so it was dual in nature.

MR LAX: I understand that, I think the question remains and again, you haven't directly answered the question. It's a very simple question. The most crucial bit of information that you had gone there for was the mole. The other stuff was ancillary, you'll concede that?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And yet you tortured him for less than ten minutes around that issue. Now in the stuff we've heard over the last two years, people far stronger than Mr Gordhan and others have given in over a period of time, using less harsh methods in suffocation but of a sustained nature and that's the point the Chairperson is putting to you?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, in this case I assaulted him within that period of time. I may have taken even longer but you must accept that it was in ten minutes that I did this.

MR LAX: And you obviously deny his assertion that this assault went on for much longer?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, he describes a period of approximately 50 minutes but in my mind it was ten minutes.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Thabethe do you have any questions?

MS THABETHE: No Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I don't know what my rights are in this matter but I just want to correct one statement which Mr Botha might have misinterpreted?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR GORDHAN: When I spoke of my detention in 1981 when 25 detainees were kept at C.R. Swart Police Station, it wasn't in one cell. There are 50 cells in that complex and there were some 25 of us there connected with different issues all in the same complex and that's fairly common practice. Mr Lalla and I were kept in the Bethlehem cells for about two and a half weeks, there are only four cells there but there were two detainees there at that time. That's the only point I was trying to make, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla, any questions arising?

MR LAX: Just a comment because I think the perception has been created here and I think we need to rule out this perception. The comment is that, just following from what Mr Lax says that you can torture people while they cooperate, you can torture people while they don't cooperate, where does he draw the line then?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you draw the line there at - the question was, people can get tortured if they cooperate, people can get tortured if they don't cooperate, where do you draw the line because on your evidence you've mentioned that Mr Gordhan was completely uncooperative whereas that wasn't the case with Mr Lalla yet both were subjected to the same form of treatment. Where do you draw the line, who don't you torture?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I think that I attempted to describe it in my evidence that in the case of Mr Lalla it was cooperation up to a certain point and then he started to withhold and that is when I went over in the application of violence on him and the circumstances of interrogation determined that.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson, with your indulgence.

Mr Botha, I was in fact subsequent to your departure after the assault questioned both by Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma about the so-called Owl, in other words the attempt to persuade me continued after your visit to Bethlehem, were you aware of that?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR GORDHAN: I actually put it to you that in fact all you needed to do and the Committee might want to know that on a virtually a weekly basis Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma would come back to Durban, they would attend one form of debriefing or briefing sessions and they would return on a Sunday night or a Monday morning to Bethlehem, at much cost I might add to the taxpayer but they could have been briefed on this matter and they could have asked the questions, Mr Botha?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson, that may be correct but directly after that I went to Cape Town for another aspect of the operation.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, I also put - and that's the second point Chairperson after which I finish, the second point is the issue of cooperation doesn't really arise here. Well for two reasons, the one is you can never expect your enemy to cooperate with you but the second and more important one in this context is as Mr Lax pointed out all the information connected with Vula was public domain information soon after the arrest of the people on the 12th July. So the issue of cooperation never really arose. Was the real issue one of breaking my morale and subjugating one to your will and so on?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I think that somewhere we have a communication breakdown because there is a tremendous gap here, I don't understand the question and I also don't understand it with reference to Mr Lax's question, there seems to be another gap there. Perhaps if some explanation could be provided?

MR GORDHAN: I put it back to you. I said the issue of cooperation doesn't arise between a detainee and an interrogator. So the first reason being that they allegedly, not allegedly, they were enemies, that you wouldn't expect a detainee like me to actually cooperate with you? Particularly if I'm in solitary confinement for month on month on month. The second and more important fact here was that you were asking one to cooperate about disclosing information that I knew that you knew and that was in the public domain so why get me to cooperate? Just keep me in a cell until you're finished your so-called information gathering and let the politicians decide what to do with us which is what happened anyway?

MR BOTHA: So what is your question then, Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Why engage in assaults and why look for so-called cooperation and so on when in fact that's something that (a) you shouldn't expect, and (b) you didn't actually require?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I did not seek cooperation from Mr Gordhan, I wanted answers from him in terms of who the informer was. His attitude was non-cooperative, I was looking for an answer.

MR GORDHAN: Well you used the word cooperation. In my vocabulary when I talk to people like you it doesn't exist so let's leave it at that, Chairperson, I made my point.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN:

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I now clarify something?

Mr Botha, it has been put to you that detainees could not be expected to cooperate, that you could not expect this from them, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR VISSER: What was your experience then?

MR BOTHA: The experience that we had from arrested terrorists that some of them would cooperate within a minute and others simply never would cooperate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Botha, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, I am going to call the next applicant which is going to be Mr Greyling and his application is found in the bundle on page 9. I've also placed before you, Chairperson and the Members and everybody else concerned certain documents which I've taken the liberty of marking. You'll find the first one is a document that's a summary of the evidence of Mr Greyling which is the "Aansoek om Amnestie vir die Aanranding op Pravine Gordhan". I have marked that Exhibit F. Chairperson, yours in front of you is those yellow pages. For some rhyme or reason my secretary was of the belief that yellow looks nice. There are four documents in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Four different, yes.

MR NEL: With regards to Mr Greyling there's two documents, one relating to the assault on Mr Gordhan and the second one relating to Mr Lalla which I've marked Mr Gordhan's Exhibit F.

CHAIRPERSON: The one that's headed "Application for Amnesty for the Assault on Mr Pravine Gordhan", that is F?

MR NEL: That is correct, Chairperson, that is in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: The translation of that is that.

MR NEL: There is only an Afrikaans translation of that, that is a summary of the incident.

MR LAX: I see it's Mr Duhr's one that's in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I was looking at Mr Duhr's one. Sorry, let's just get this straight here. I've got four, this is Duhr, Bothma, Greyling, so there's just the one document?

MR NEL: There's two documents for Greyling.

CHAIRPERSON: Two for Greyling. The first one relates to Mr Gordhan, that's F and the other one will be G, relating to Mr Lalla?

MR NEL: Correct, Chairperson, whilst we're at that point in junction we might as well mark the remaining two documents as well relating to Mr Duhr which will then be Exhibit H with regards to the assault on Mr Gordhan and then the document relating to the assault on Mr Gordhan for Bothma will be Exhibit J if I have it correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, do you have these documents? I think at this stage the important one to have are the two relating to Mr Greyling.

MR GORDHAN: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe, could you kindly arrange for copies for Mr Lalla and Mr Gordhan please? Thank you.

MR GREYLING: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: As it pleases the Chair. Chairperson, Mr Greyling will be testifying in Afrikaans and as I've indicated his amnesty application form is found on page 10 of the bundle in front of you.

Mr Greyling, you have applied for amnesty for the assault of two persons namely firstly Mr Gordhan and secondly Mr Raymond Lalla, both of whom are present here today, is that correct?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: If you look at your amnesty application which is embodied in the bundle from page 10 to page 14 to you confirm this application and confirm that it is signed by you and do you confirm this as correct?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: You have also heard the evidence of the previous applicant, Colonel Botha, and do you confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it concerns you?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: And before we go over to the incident itself you have also heard that certain documents had been served before this Committee which have been submitted previously namely Exhibits A, B AND C and during consultation with me you have studied these documents and do you confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it concerns you and do you also request for this to be incorporated in your amnesty application?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: If I may refer you to Exhibit F which is before you, Mr Greyling, would you read from paragraph 1 and I ask you to read this slowly seeing as it is being interpreted by the interpreters. Would you being with paragraph 1 please?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, during 1990 I was a member of the security branch stationed in Durban. I was a member of a group of investigators and at that stage we were involved in the investigation of the so-called Operation Vula. During ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Greyling, just to complete the picture, what was your position in seniority with regard to that group?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I was a warrant officer during that period in time.

Warrant Officer Basson and I were tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla with regard to his involvement in Operation Vula. During the interrogation of one Pravine Gordhan, I assisted Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha in suffocating Mr Gordhan and so doing to attempt to persuade him to answer questions which were being put to him with regard to Operation Vula.

MR NEL: Mr Greyling we have heard that before Mr Botha went to Bethlehem you were also involved in interrogation, was this also with regard to Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: No, I was simply tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla, Warrant Office Basson and I at that stage.

MR NEL: Please proceed with the case of the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan?

MR GREYLING: During the assault Colonel Hentie Botha arrived at the Bethlehem office of the security branch. He put certain questions to Mr Gordhan that he was supposed to answer but Mr Gordhan did not assist him during that period and Colonel Botha requested me to help him with the assault of Mr Gordhan. After it appeared that Mr Gordhan did not intend to answer any of Mr Botha's questions, the assault on him was stopped. During the assault and at that stage I believed that my actions were aimed at protecting and maintaining the existing government of that time. I was not rewarded nor did I draw any advantage out of my participation in the assault of Gordhan. I request that my application for amnesty be favourably considered.

MR NEL: Mr Greyling, would you then continue immediately with Exhibit G which is basically the same with regard to your involvement in the assault of Mr Lalla and may I just ask you from the very beginning that during the compilation of this document, is it correct that you could not recall anything about the asthma pump incident?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: Would you also agree with the evidence which Mr Botha gave insofar as it concerns you with regard to Mr Lalla?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: And was the assault on Mr Lalla stopped as a result of the asthma attack or some form of attack that he experienced?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: Is it also correct to say that you were not rewarded for your share in the assault on Mr Lalla?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: And do you also further request that your amnesty application be favourably considered in this regard?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: Chairperson, that will be the evidence of Mr Greyling.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel. Mr Visser, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Greyling, are you today capable of recalling precisely what the questions were which Mr Botha put to Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla or can you no longer recall?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I can recall clearly that Colonel Botha specifically asked Mr Gordhan to disclose the identity of the informer within the security branch. Mr Gordhan refused from the very beginning to assist Mr Botha in any way and insofar as it concerns Mr Raymond Lalla I can recall that he asked him questions with regard to a list of names as well as who fetched him at the Swaziland border during his infiltration into South Africa.

MR VISSER: From cross-examination of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, it was disclosed here that you being the security police, if I may put it that way, already possessed all the necessary information that it had been published in newspapers and so forth with regard to the questions that you were busy asking him, that you attempted to get answers for, is that correct?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, we were specifically tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla. There were various aspects which Mr Lalla refused to provide any information about during that period in time.

MR VISSER: Information that you did not possess?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And then finally, Mr Greyling, you state that your memory has failed you regarding the asthma pump. Today after your recollection has been refreshed, can you recall anything about an asthma pump?

MR GREYLING: That is correct, I can recall it. During the interrogation of Mr Raymond Lalla he had an asthma attack and Colonel Botha also asked me to go and look for an asthma pump as soon as possible.

MR VISSER: And is it also correct that there was a pharmacy in the same building where these two gentlemen were detained?

MR GREYLING: That may be so, I cannot recall specifically but I can recall that it wasn't very far from the police office.

MR VISSER: And did you then obtain such an asthma pump and return it?

MR GREYLING: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you present to see whether Mr Lalla used the asthma pump?

MR GREYLING: I can recall something like that very vaguely, I know that after a period of time Mr Lalla was once again acting normally.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Gordhan?

MR VISSER: Sorry, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR VISSER: Can you assist the Committee, according to your recollection how long did the assault of Mr Gordhan last and after that how long did the assault of Mr Lalla last, this suffocation process?

MR GREYLING: I can recall specifically that the suffocation process on Mr Lalla did not take place for very long seeing as he suffered an asthma attack and with regard to Mr Gordhan, it's difficult to tell you exactly how long it took seeing as this was approximately twelve years ago.

MR VISSER: What is your recollection?

MR GREYLING: I cannot say that it lasted for longer than ten to fifteen minutes because during that assault I was called out of an office and requested to go to the office where Mr Gordhan was tortured.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you weren't present the whole time that Mr Gordhan was being tortured?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I cannot respond to that because I was in an office with Warrant Officer Basson when Colonel Botha called me and there were no other persons who I saw at that stage because it was reasonably dark and that is when I was asked to assist with the suffocation.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went into the office where Mr Gordhan was, was he already - had the procedure started, was he being suffocated?

MR GREYLING: After I had gone outside Mr Gordhan already lay on his back on the ground on the floor and there was a bag or something over his eyes and Colonel Botha simply asked me to hold his legs down while he was applying the suffocation technique.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Just a few, Chairperson. Earlier, I think around paragraph 4 you said that Mr Botha put certain questions to me which I did not answer. You of course were not present in the earlier part of my interaction with Mr Botha so you actually wouldn't be aware whether he put questions and whether I actually answered them?

MR GREYLING: That's absolutely right, Mr Gordhan, I must have been confused, yourself with Mr Lalla at that stage.

MR GORDHAN: The second question, you operated as you say under the instruction of Mr Botha to do what you did?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: If you had a choice is it your inclination to assault detainees or are you one of the nice guys?

MR GREYLING: No Sir, if we wanted to assault yourself or Mr Lalla I think that we could have done it long before that, I think we were there for approximately three weeks already.

MR GORDHAN: That's right. In terms of the time you have already conceded you haven't been there at the beginning of the assault, it could be as long as fifteen minutes, it could have been as long as twenty minutes or twenty five minutes in all as well?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, according to my recollection, it could not have been longer than 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the time that you were in the room with Mr Gordhan?

MR GREYLING: Yes that is correct.

MR GORDHAN: No, the question I'm putting to you Mr Greyling is that in all it could have been twenty, twenty five minutes because you weren't there all the time?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I cannot testify regarding things which took place and which I was not involved. I can only give evidence regarding that period of time during which I was present.

ADV BOSMAN: Very briefly, is it your evidence that you spent at the most fifteen minutes in the room itself?

MR GREYLING: Ten to fifteen minutes.

ADV BOSMAN: Very well, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, you may proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Again, Mr Greyling, I might not have understood you correctly, but you said that from the beginning the questions around the so-called hour have been put and from the beginning I refused to answer them, did I get you right?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, as I have already said I was not present when Colonel Botha initially spoke to Mr Gordhan so I cannot respond in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were present were any questions put by Mr Botha to Mr Gordhan in your presence?

MR GREYLING: That is correct, Colonel Botha repeatedly asked Mr Gordhan various questions. I can remember particularly with regard to the identity of The Owl, that Mr Gordhan flatly refused to provide any information with regard to The Owl.

MR GORDHAN: What other questions do you remember, Mr Greyling?

MR GREYLING: I can recall that he asked Mr Gordhan about certain aspects pertaining to his involvement with operation Vula but I cannot recall the specific detail attached to that.

MR GORDHAN: And you were present during your stay in that room, you were present when Mr Botha was swearing and hurling abuse and threatening me that I wouldn't see my family again and so on. You would of course recall that as well?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, at that particular point it may have been but this was twelve years ago and I cannot recall particulars. It is impossible for me to recall something like that.

MR GORDHAN: It's only nine years ago, Mr Greyling, almost to the day. Last question, Chairperson. Do you have any regret about the fact that you participated in this assault and what's your approach to the reconciliation question?

MR GREYLING: Well, Chairperson, I think that that would be the reason why all of us are here. It is not only about telling the truth, it is also about the reconciliation process, that is what it is about, that is why we are here.

MR LAX: You haven't actually answered the issue of whether you regret your actions?

MR GREYLING: Yes Chairperson, I regret my share in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lalla, would you like to put any questions to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LALLA: No, I think it's more for comment. I want to state that Mr Greyling, on the night that I was tortured, yes he did fetch a pump. Whether I suffered from asthma it's another story, but under doctor's advice from Mr Botha, he did fetch a pump and on the same night Mr Greyling was traumatised by the fact that he had tortured us and he had apologised and he was in a state. I just thought the Committee should be aware of this. Subsequently, after that I'm not sure for whatever reason, but he was removed from the interrogating team that was interrogating me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lalla.

MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, do you have any re-examination?

MR NEL: I have none, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(inaudible) Mr Chairperson, yours won't go off and mine keeps on going off.

At the stage when Colonel Botha arrived there, had you already spent quite some time interrogating Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson yes, we had spent approximately two weeks in Bethlehem but we had also gone to Pretoria where Mr Lalla assisted us with the identification of a stockpile in Pretoria.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you and Mr Botha have any discussion before he came in at the stage when they were assaulted and did you tell him that you were not obtaining any cooperation from them or at least from Mr Gordhan?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, as I've said, initially we were deployed to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla and during that period Warrant Officer Basson received a telephone call from the Durban office requesting that he speak to Mr Gordhan for one day briefly because Mr Duhr and Mr Frans could not achieve any successful development or cooperation from Gordhan. I spoke to Mr Gordhan that he stated flatly that he would not provide any cooperation with us and that message was sent back as such to our office in Durban so they were well aware of the fact that Mr Gordhan was non-cooperative.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did not speak to Mr Botha personally, I just want to know if you spoke to him about this personally?

MR GREYLING: Not at all, at no stage did I contact Colonel Botha or speak to him before the assault took place.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you bear any knowledge of Mr Lalla being sent for scans at Bloemfontein hospital?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, after the time the reason why I returned to Durban was because I was supposed to get married a week and a half after the incident and that is why I withdrew from Bethlehem.

MR LAX: So do you think you've been married for twelve years now, Mr Greyling?

MR GREYLING: It feels like twenty years, Chairperson. Chairperson, I was informed by Warrant Officer Basson when I saw him again after the time that Mr Lalla had indeed been sent for treatment and he mentioned something about a brain scan in the Free State but I cannot recall precisely where or in which hospital this took place but that is what I was told.

MR LAX: Just one other short aspect Chairperson.

You mentioned that Mr Botha asked Mr Gordhan during his interrogation about The Owl and he wouldn't cooperate about that. Now clearly you were quite upset at this whole process of interrogation according to what Mr Lalla has suggested in his comment and it had a fairly - was this an exceptional circumstance for you, this question of being involved in such torture?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, by nature of Colonel Botha's visit we were informed that it was of the utmost importance to find out precisely who the informer in the security branch was. Warrant Officer Basson and I understood the seriousness of it and there was certain information which according to Colonel Botha had to be obtained in order to assist with the investigation with regard to Operation Vula so I must say that in my opinion it was of cardinal significance for us to know exactly who or what the identity of the informer was within the security branch.

MR LAX: If you will just bear with me one second, Chair, I just check some facts from another matter?

ADV BOSMAN: While Mr Lax is checking if I may just come in?

Mr Greyling, I don't think that you really answered Mr Lax's question. His question was whether or not it was extraordinary for you to participate in such an assault?

MR GREYLING: Personally I felt that at that stage after the investigation it was extremely important if we examine all the facts that we had collected by that stage. I think that it was of extreme importance to us to know who this person was who was leading information out from the branch.

ADV BOSMAN: I will try once again to illustrate my problem to you. The question is not whether it was important for you to obtain the information. If I understand Mr Lax correctly, the question is whether or not it was extraordinary for you to participate in such an assault. In other words, did you actually regard this as a difficult circumstance under which to assault someone?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I did not regard this as something extreme. To me, as a policeman, as a police officer at that stage who was involved in the Vula investigation I was part of it and I regarded it as my duty to participate in the matter. At that stage I felt that it was my duty.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're waiting for Mr Lax, when did you first hear of The Owl?

MR GREYLING: We heard about The Owl for the first time during the assault, on the day of the assault, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Chair, I can't find the specific name but I'm going to ask the question in any event, I'm sorry to delay you.

Who were you reporting to with regard to your enquiries into Operation Vula?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, Warrant Officer Basson and I reported to Colonel Zen de Beer in Durban. I did not telephone personally but Warrant Officer Basson was the liaison person between me and our office in Durban.

MR LAX: So you were busy as part of this national investigative team put together by Zen de Beer under his control?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't catch that Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes it was put together by Steyn who appointed Zen de Beer as the head of the national investigation unit, yes. Sorry, no, no, that was the evidence given by Steyn.

MR LAX: Yes, the evidence given by Steyn was that this team was appointed.

MR VISSER: By him.

MR LAX: I don't remember that directly but in any event it's not that relevant who appointed it, the fact is that there was this team under Zen de Beer and they were investigating Operation Vula. You see, where I'm a little bit puzzled is you weren't working under Botha at all?

MR GREYLING: Not at all.

MR LAX: Botha's earlier evidence is that he wasn't involved in that investigation, that Zen de Beer was, he had from time to time to assist them a little bit with little bits of information, that was his previous testimony.

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I don't know, we simply reported to Colonel de Beer and what he did with the information I don't know.

MR LAX: You also weren't aware that there was no intention on the part of the State at that time to prosecute anybody for all the work you were doing?

MR GREYLING: I cannot agree with that, Chairperson, during our interrogation of Mr Raymond Lalla, we accompanied him to Pretoria where a stockpile was identified. Mr Lalla stood by his contention that he knew nothing of the map. We were told that the map was found in Mr Lalla's room but Mr Lalla agreed to point out the stockpile in Pretoria to us by means of the map. We had a special investigating officer who we appointed in Pretoria to assist us with the identification of the stockpile. Videos were taken as well as photographs of the process in order to give as evidence at the end of the day.

MR LAX: You see, you haven't heard that evidence but we have and the fact of the matter is that General Steyn knew and Major or Colonel Botha knew that there were to be no prosecutions arising from all your extensive work.

MR GREYLING: That is the first time that I hear of it.

MR LAX: That was a political decision taken at the times when De Beer was appointed to do this job but be that as it may I wanted to know whether you were aware of that?

MR GREYLING: No, we were not. During the interrogation of Mr Lalla it was exposed to us from the first time that there were negotiations among the senior security staff which to Warrant Officer Basson and me was upsetting regarding the fact that senior officers within the police or politicians were simply using the security police at that point for their own advantage.

MR LAX: Were you party at all to any of the observations on any of the houses or any of the arrests that took place. Were you party to any of that?

MR GREYLING: During the arrest of Siphiwe Nyanda I was present. There were not enough people in the office and they were looking for persons to assist with the arrest.

MR LAX: What time was he arrested?

MR GREYLING: I can't recall precisely, I think it was in the morning perhaps between 11 and 12, I cannot recall precisely. So it was late morning as far as you can recall?

MR GREYLING: Yes, as far as I can recall.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Any questions arising from questions that have been put by the Panel, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, sorry I should have asked you first.

MR NEL: No thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: I just want to get here, Chairperson, Mr Greyling's attitude to assault quite clear. I was quite disturbed by your answer to Advocate Bosman. Are you saying that you - I understand that you were under instruction and I asked you that question but you seemed to say that you would have no problems in participating in assaults of your own accord, not under instruction?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I did this upon instruction. It was not the manner in which we would do it and I'm not trying to suggest that. At that stage even though the instruction was illegal I felt that it was expected of me as a policeman to execute this instruction. Personally, that would not be the way that I would work or the way that it should be, that would not be the moral way of doing this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LALLA: Mr Greyling, are you aware that I am presently the Head of Crime Intelligence?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I have been notified as such.

MR LALLA: I'm beginning to get a signal over here that there is some mischief making going on in terms of implications of saying one cooperated with one and the other cooperated with the other and the other helped in finding this arms cache. I'm going to put this question to you directly, were you aware where the map of the arms cache, where was it found? Were you there?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, at no stage was I involved or present during the obtaining of the map of the stockpile. Mr Lalla told us from the beginning that he didn't know abut the map but the fact that we gave the map to him, he said that he would use the contents of the map and assist us in pointing out the stockpile, that he had no personal involvement with the map or with the stockpile.

MR LALLA: Mr Greyling, were you present right throughout the time when the location of this arms cache was found, were you there with me right throughout the time?

MR GREYLING: Yes I was present, it was in Pretoria. The video unit of the Pretoria unit was also there.

MR LALLA: Were you aware at that time, you all took me to Soshanguve, I had no idea where Pretoria was. It was my first visit to Pretoria. You had taken me to a point and you had said to me this is the road, this is how you go there and I was directed through the process of the policeman who was investigating that case to the location of the firearm.

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR LALLA: Thanks, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Greyling, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.

CHAIRPERSON: I see that it's now quarter past one, this will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment which we will take until 2 o'clock.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, just one thing. Only two other persons whose matters could be fairly brief and in view of the fact that they ...(indistinct) you don't have anything to follow up this matter, would it be an imposition upon you to say that let's conclude the other two and then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, you'll also be given an opportunity if you want to, to testify yourselves, you have that right.

MR GORDHAN: I also don't intend to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GORDHAN: Well, in the interests of expediting this matter Chairperson, I'm saying that a little bit hunger might not be misplaced.

CHAIRPERSON: It's just that I personally have no problem with what you're putting, it's just that there are caterers and

translators need a break, it's very difficult for them to continue but we can make it shorter, half an hour and start at quarter to two?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, I'm going to call the next applicant who is Mr Duhr. May I just ask your indulgence for one second? They were in the passage a short while ago and I've asked Mr Botha to just have a look where they are.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit H?

MR NEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, have you now got copies of these exhibits, that's the one by Mr Duhr. That's H, J is the one of Mr Bothma.

MR DUHR: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mr Duhr, am I correct in saying that you are an amnesty applicant in terms of the Act for an assault which you have described in your amnesty application which is found on page 16 of the bundle and may I ask you to confirm your entire application which runs to page 19 except for where you have given your address as Panorama Park in Illovo Beach, you no longer reside there?

MR DUHR: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR NEL: You confirm the correctness of the rest of your application?

MR DUHR: I do.

MR NEL: Mr Duhr, you've heard me ask this question for the previous applicant. I want to refer you to Exhibits A, B and C which serves before this Committee which was handed in as an exhibit on a previous occasion, you also like the previous applicant had the opportunity to peruse these documents. Do you confirm the contents thereof as far as your knowledge is concerned and do you ask that these also be incorporated as part of your amnesty application?

MR DUHR: Yes I do, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Also with regards to the evidence given by Mr Botha and Mr Greyling, do you confirm the evidence they have given insofar as the correctness thereof and as far as it concerns you?

MR DUHR: I do.

MR NEL: May I then immediately refer you to Exhibit H which is in front of you which is a summary of the incident and can I confirm that during 1990 you were stationed at Durban as a member of the security branch. Can you just tell this Committee what your rank at the time was?

MR DUHR: I was a lieutenant at the time, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Is it also then correct that you were part of a number of investigators who were at the time busy with interrogation inter alia of Mr Gordhan with regards to what as known then as Operation Vula?

MR DUHR: Yes that is correct.

MR NEL: Can you in your own words then briefly just tell us your involvement in the assault upon Mr Gordhan?

MR DUHR: Well, Chairperson, I see there is a summary here, maybe I should just go ahead and read the summary?

MR NEL: Please do.

MR DUHR: Thank you.

MR NEL: Am I correct in saying that you were not actually part of the assault itself but you were present and you were tasked to take notes if necessary?

MR DUHR: That is correct, Chairperson. If I can continue:

MR NEL: Mr Duhr, it's correct that you were involved in questioning Mr Gordhan before the actual incident of the assault, is that correct?

MR DUHR: That is correct, I was tasked, myself and one of my colleagues, Inspector Bothma, at the time, we were tasked to question Mr Gordhan at Bethlehem.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that you were tasked to question Mr Gordhan was that immediately on the same day or had you been in Bethlehem for some time?

MR DUHR: No, I'd been tasked shortly after his arrest, we were tasked by the then Lieutenant Colonel Botha to go ahead with the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: So who was tasked to deal with Mr Gordhan, yourself and anyone else?

MR DUHR: That would be myself and Inspector Frans Bothma, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions you wish to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Duhr, I'm not certain that I quite heard you, you were tasked to question whom? Mr Lalla or Mr Gordhan?

MR DUHR: That will be Mr Gordhan.

MR VISSER: Mr Gordhan. Now what was your experience of the attitude of Mr Gordhan during your questioning of him prior to the day of the assault?

MR DUHR: My experience was with Mr Gordhan that he was a reasonably calm person you know but at the same time uncooperative as far as certain questions were concerned pertaining to the Vula investigation.

MR VISSER: And on the day of the assault was that on that day also your impression that he wasn't going to cooperate?

MR DUHR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you at all remember what Botha questioned him about?

MR DUHR: I think one or two of the questions I can remember. Primarily the question obviously being as previously testified, the identity of The Owl, I think that was the primary question which was levelled to Mr Gordhan and there were one or two questions pertaining to the Vula investigation itself but that was secondary to that.

MR VISSER: Right and were you present from the time when Mr Botha commenced his questioning of Mr Gordhan to the end?

MR DUHR: I was present yes until the end.

MR VISSER: Can you give a guestimate of how long this whole process lasted?

MR DUHR: I would say in my opinion, it is a long time ago, in my opinion it was approximately 15 minutes, it was a reasonably short duration.

MR LAX: That estimate of yours, that fifteen minutes, is that the questioning prior to the assault or is it the whole process?

MR DUHR: That would be the whole process, Chairperson. The questioning prior to the assault was - well it didn't take long it was very brief.

MR VISSER: So in fact Botha very rapidly came to the conclusion to go over to more forceful methods after he had arrived there?

MR DUHR: That is correct, I would suggest that is a correct interpretation.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Mr Duhr, were you involved in any of the Vula arrests?

MR DUHR: No, I was not involved with the physical arrests although I was at one or two of the safe houses subsequently but with the physical arrests I was not involved, not to my memory.

MR GORDHAN: While you were in Bethlehem, whom did you report to in Durban?

MR DUHR: I reported to Colonel Zen de Beer at that time, we reported on a weekly or two weekly basis. We had to go back and give him a feedback, brief account of the previous weeks activities.

MR GORDHAN: You obviously didn't according to your version directly participate in the assault itself but you were witness to it?

MR DUHR: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: If you had a choice in the matter would you have - or do you have an inclination generally, or during that time to assault detainees?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I was with Mr Gordhan for about three months and I'd think he would bear with me that I didn't show any inclination towards assaulting detainees specific to him and generally speaking to any other detainee I was in the company of.

MR GORDHAN: There was an occasion subsequent to the assault when one of the police persons, uniformed police persons, was instructed it appears by you to ensure that I didn't sleep that night by every fifteen or twenty minutes coming into my cell, rattling the gate, opening the door, physically waking me up if I had fallen asleep. Do you recall that?

MR DUHR: I do not recall that but if you could maybe just refresh my memory what objective I had in mind at the time, I'm not too sure? I don't recall that - right through the night, it could have happened and it could be true but I don't recall that specific instruction, it could be ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: It could be true though. Okay, I don't want to dwell on it, it did happen.

MR DUHR: I accept that.

MR GORDHAN: Very generously the next morning of course you allowed me to sleep a couple of hours but you might recall that. Do you have any regrets about your role in the detention in the violence against detainees and what is your approach to the reconciliation question?

MR DUHR: I have regrets you know as to the whole process that was followed bearing in mind that you know, we're ignorant on the true national events at the time and in retrospect I think it was unnecessary what we went through and yes, I am in favour of reconciliation and true reconciliation between all the parties involved.

MR GORDHAN: Just one last question, Mr Duhr, you will recall that on several occasions I wrote letters to the then Minister of Law and Order. I'd like you to firstly confirm that, secondly what happens to those letters, do they actually get to the Minister of Law and Order?

MR DUHR: According to my understanding yes, I recall those letters you wrote and they do get to him because I can recollect, I think one was - there was a response to one or two of them, I think there was a response which did come back which he did remark on. I'm almost sure about that, maybe my colleague could help me on that extent later but I think you did receive a response.

MR GORDHAN: Well let me put it to you that there was no response and those letter, for your information Chairperson, were demanding my release reporting to the minister about my assault and constantly putting to him, that's Mr Vlok at that time, that he was holding me hostage as a political hostage in the sense that they, as a National Party government, were attempting to get leverage over the ANC that they were negotiating with.

Just one question, Mr Duhr and that is you will confirm that on some occasion you had occasion to take me to a specialist physician who confirmed that I had hypertension, who explained to you what that hypertension meant and that I was put on treatment for that as a result of my stay there?

MR DUHR: Yes I can recall that you did go to a specialist, we did take you there and he did have a discussion of that, I just cannot recall the hypertension part of it but I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR LALLA: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Nothing Chairperson, just maybe if I maybe allowed to ask one question?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mr Duhr, is it correct that you are still presently in the South African Police Services?

MR DUHR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR NEL: And what is your rank at present time?

MR DUHR: Presently I'm a superintendent.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions concerning that last bit of evidence that anyone would like to put to the witness?

Advocate Bosman do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: I've no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question, Mr Duhr, Mr Gordhan says that he wrote several letters to the then minister which letters concerned his detention, asked for release and made mention of the assault and now you said that those letters reached their destination. Would you have censored those letters? Would you have let a letter go through to the minister talking about assault?

MR DUHR: Would I have censored those letters? Those letters, I think he would have placed in an envelope addressed personally for the attention of the minister. Not? Okay, well if they opened letters the possibility exists that I could have read through them but the fact of the matter they're delivered to our Durban office or to the minister. As far as my part of the equation is concerned, it was fulfilled and I'm still reasonably sure that there was a response to one of those letters, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying that any letter written by Mr Gordhan you forwarded on to your Durban offices?

MR DUHR: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why you say that they reached their destination although you don't know what happened to them when they reached Durban?

MR DUHR: That is correct, I cannot testify on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising out of questions that I have put? Thank you Mr Duhr, that concludes your testimony.

MR DUHR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: You may be excused.

MR NEL: Chairperson, the last applicant is ...(inaudible) for your involvement and participation in the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan and you set out your amnesty application in the bundle found on page 22 which runs through up to page 26, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: (sworn states)

That is correct.

EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mr Bothma, you are still in the Police Service today, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR NEL: And your current rank?

MR BOTHMA: I'm a Superintendent.

MR NEL: During the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan, what was your rank?

MR BOTHMA: I was a Warrant Officer, Chairperson.

MR NEL: And you were stationed at the security branch Durban?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR NEL: Firstly, do you confirm the correctness of your amnesty application as I have referred you to it in the bundle?

MR BOTHMA: Yes that is correct.

MR NEL: I have asked this question three times previously but it is necessary for the record. Exhibits A, B and C serves before this Committee which was handed up and deals with the general background to amnesty applications as well as Operation Vula. You have studied these documents and do you ask that these be incorporated in your evidence insofar as your knowledge goes and do you confirm the correctness thereof?

MR BOTHMA: Yes I do, Chairperson.

MR NEL: And you have heard the evidence of Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha as well as the previous applicants. Do you confirm the correctness of their versions of the events as it had taken place on the day of the assault?

MR BOTHMA: I do so, Chairperson.

MR NEL: If I refer you to Exhibit J will you please read to us from paragraph 1 where the circumstances are explained?

MR BOTHMA: During 1990 I was a member of the security branch stationed at Durban. I was part of a group investigators and at that stage we were involved with the investigation of the so-called Operation Vula. During the questioning of one Pravine Gordhan I assisted Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha to suffocate Mr Gordhan in order to persuade him to answer questions which were put to him with regard to Operation Vula.

MR NEL: What exactly do you mean that you assisted Mr Botha in suffocating him, what was your part in the assault?

MR BOTHMA: I helped in holding Mr Gordhan down on the ground.

MR NEL: Please continue?

MR BOTHMA: After it became clear that Mr Gordhan was not willing to answer any of Mr Botha's questions, the assault was ceased. During the assault and at that stage I believed that my actions were aimed at maintaining and protecting the then government. I was not rewarded and did not receive any benefit for my participation in the assault on Mr Gordhan. I request that my amnesty application be considered favourable. Thank you.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence of Mr Bothma.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel. Mr Visser, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Bothma, before this date of the assault were you involved in any interrogation of Mr Gordhan?

MR BOTHMA: No, I was not involved in any interrogation, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you recall on the day of the assault what the subject matter of the questioning was?

MR BOTHMA: The interrogation dealt with specifically the identity of the agent or double agent in the security branch known as The Owl and certain aspects with regard to Operation Vula.

MR VISSER: Were you present from the time Mr Botha started speaking to Mr Gordhan right up to the end after he was suffocated?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, I was involved.

MR VISSER: Please give us an indication of your memory as to how long the process had taken from start to end?

MR BOTHMA: Approximately between ten and fifteen minutes.

MR VISSER: And you say in your evidence-in-chief that it seemed clear to you, are the words that you used, that Mr Gordhan was not willing to answer, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you explain that, why was it so clear to you? How did you draw this inference?

MR BOTHMA: Mr Gordhan, since the start of his detention right from the start, he was not cooperative.

MR VISSER: How do you know that?

MR BOTHMA: We had to struggle to obtain his name and surname from him.

MR VISSER: So did you indeed take part in certain questionings of Mr Gordhan before the assault?

MR BOTHMA: Right from the start of the questioning right up to the end I was present.

MR VISSER: And he did not cooperate, is that what you say?

MR BOTHMA: No, not totally.

MR VISSER: And on the day of the assault was that once again the case?

MR BOTHMA: Mr Gordhan denied that he knew the identity of the mole or the informant within the security branch or that he had knowledge of the identity.

MR VISSER: Very well, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson.

Were you involved in any of the arrests of Vula detainees?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, I wasn't involved.

MR GORDHAN: Did you have a direct reporting line to Durban yourself?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, Mr Duhr did the report back.

MR GORDHAN: The issue of cooperation seems to plague our discussions here. Did you actually expect an ANC detainee to cooperate with the special branch official?

MR BOTHMA: Not really.

MR GORDHAN: From the moment that you and Mr Duhr stood up in that office, put the lights off, asked me to face the window, the hood goes on to my head, to the moment when the wrappings are finally taken off my body and the hood is removed, you will grant that trying to recall that nine years later it could well have been between twenty and thirty minutes as well, that whole duration?

MR BOTHMA: I doubt if it took that long, it might have felt that long for you, Sir.

MR GORDHAN: It could have been 25 minutes, 20 minutes?

MR BOTHMA: Possibly 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Gordhan, if I could just intervene on this aspect. Mr Gordhan said that he was placed, he was in this room or cell whatever it was and made to look out the window and the hood was placed over his head. Where did that hood come from?

MR BOTHMA: I don't know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did somebody have to go out the room to fetch it?

MR BOTHMA: That must have happened, it was not in the office where the interrogation took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember anybody going out or being asked to go out?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, I cannot recall that anybody specifically went to fetch it.

CHAIRPERSON: And also it seemed from the evidence that Mr Gordhan was wrapped up in some sort of blanket or something, where did that come from?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, it could have come from the cells I suspect, I do speak under correction.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this interrogation take place in the cell or was it in a special interrogation room or other office?

MR BOTHMA: The questioning took place in an office of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: And then we've heard evidence also that some sort of bag, I think it's been referred to as a bag or a towel or some plastic was placed on Mr Gordhan's face actually suffocating him. Can you say what was actually placed on his face when he was being smothered?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was a piece of plastic.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a plastic bag from a supermarket or what sort of plastic?

MR BOTHMA: A plastic rubber.

CHAIRPERSON: A thicker type of plastic, like a tube in a tyre?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where that came from?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, I don't know, it was also not in the office, it was brought there.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know how long you've had to wait more or less for this stuff to be obtained? This hood and the plastic blanket?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, we did not wait for it. When we started, when Mr Gordhan was wrapped up in the blanket the rubber plastic was already there.

CHAIRPERSON: So what are you saying that when Mr Botha came into the room for the interrogation the stuff was available, this material?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, just to amplify on that and Mr Bothma I'm sure will confirm that, that at least four pieces of equipment if you want to call it that were required. The blanket, the hood, the rubber/plastic, piece of material and a rope with string or some equivalent with which my body was tied and Mr Bothma will also I'm sure agree that there had to be an element of planning and premeditation in order that all of that would be available when the assault took place.

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, I don't know that Mr Duhr or I or I do not know that we had beforehand received instruction or collected these items out of our own motivation. With Mr Botha's arrival there the things were there.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Gordhan's putting to you then, well just to follow on what he has putting, would you agree then that before the interrogation started, the interrogator must have expected at least the possibility of using that equipment before it started, otherwise why bring it?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, Sir.

MR GORDHAN: So I would have imagined that the same piece of equipment would have been used on Mr Lalla?

MR BOTHMA: I was not present with Mr Lalla but I believed that they used the same things.

MR GORDHAN: What is your - you're a senior officer now in the South African Police, do you see yourself as being loyal to the current government and what is your approach to the question of regret and reconciliation?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, it's correct I am still in the police and I have the rank of superintendent. I feel sorry for what we had participated in and it took place during the circumstances of those times along with the influences which were upon us and seen in that light and I regret the fact that it had taken place and I agree with the reconciliation process which is ongoing in the country and I support it totally.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla?

MR LALLA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nel?

MR NEL: I have none, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: One question, thank you Chairperson.

Mr Bothma, do you know why Mr Gordhan and Lalla had been detained in Bethlehem and not in Durban?

MR BOTHMA: I don't know exactly what the reason was for it, I believe with my personal opinion, I think it was to prevent them contacting them contacting their families or all the other detainees.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one thing, Chairperson.

You've told us that this apparatus, these four items, were not in the room when this questioning commenced, there hadn't been in there at previous sessions, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Mr Gordhan, had he been questioned in that office before that in your presence?

MR BOTHMA: Yes he was questioned in that office in my presence.

MR LAX: And you don't know who brought those items into the room that day?

MR BOTHMA: No, Chairperson, I don't know if any of the other persons brought it there or who brought it there.

MR LAX: Was it not Colonel Botha?

MR BOTHMA: It is possible.

MR LAX: Because who else was in the room on that day?

MR BOTHMA: Myself, Lieutenant Duhr and Mr Gordhan.

MR LAX: So you have no recollection of who brought those items in?

MR BOTHMA: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I want you just to go back just for a moment. We understand that Mr Botha left the room at the point he decided to do something else, is that correct? At the point you ordered Mr Gordhan to turn around was Botha in the room or had he left the room?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I wonder if I could help to clarify that the initial questioning period of what I referred to as three minutes was at least an hour or two before the assault actually took place so in a sense it was two separate events. If that ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: If you've heard what Mr Gordhan says, do you confirm that?

MR BOTHMA: I would agree with it, I cannot recollect it hundred percent but I can agree with it.

MR LAX: Sorry, I certainly didn't have that impression, that's a very helpful clarification if you like of the process of that day. So are you saying that Mr Gordhan was questioned, were you present when he was initially questioned by Mr Botha? That's prior to the torture?

MR BOTHMA: Yes, I was present.

MR LAX: Well tell us what happened then?

MR BOTHMA: During that interrogation, Sir?

MR LAX: During the initial interrogation, yes.

MR BOTHMA: Mr Botha came into the room, he asked very briefly certain questions to Mr Gordhan. He did not obviously receive satisfactory answers to it and he left.

MR LAX: And then what happened?

MR BOTHMA: After quite some time, I don't know exactly how long it was, I cannot say whether it was ten or fifteen minutes or even an hour, Mr Botha returned and then the interrogation continued with the blankets and the plastic.

MR LAX: You see Mr Gordhan is suggesting it was over two hours later. Well an hour to two hours, that's how he put it.

MR BOTHMA: I don't know, I would speculate.

MR LAX: But it was a reasonably long period of time?

MR BOTHMA: I really can't say, I don't know whether it was one hour or two hours, I cannot say that it could have been longer than an hour.

MR LAX: You see if you can't even remember that how can you remember how long the torture went on for, how can you be so sure that it wasn't more than fifteen minutes or maybe twenty minutes?

MR BOTHMA: I am certain of the time that the interrogation and torture lasted, it was brief and the questions were asked quickly and it was clear that we would not get any answers from Mr Gordhan.

MR LAX: You see the question I want to know is why are you able to remember that and yet you can't remember what the intervening period was?

MR BOTHMA: It's seven years ago, Sir.

MR LAX: Precisely, that's precisely the reason why I'm asking you. I know it was a long time ago and that's precisely why I'm asking you why you're so sure about one thing but not about another? I would expect that if you weren't sure about things you would be not sure about a whole lot of things? Do you see my point?

CHAIRPERSON: You see what Mr Lax is getting at Mr Bothma is you've said that as far as you're concerned the interrogation and torture process lasted ten to fifteen minutes, plus minus fifteen minutes, you gave a time and we got the impression that you were fairly confident about what you were saying. Now you've been asked, you've been told that there was a gap between the first interrogation involving Mr Botha and Mr Gordhan and then the torture and you've got no idea as to how long that period is between the first interrogation and the torture, you've got no idea at all. Now what Mr Lax is asking you is well, how can you then be so sure in your own mind that the torture lasted for plus minus fifteen minutes when you can't remember the intervening period, the length of the intervening period.

MR BOTHMA: The torture - the interrogation during the time when the blanket and all the other things were used, I was actively part of that, I recall it specifically although I'm not saying specifically that it was ten to fifteen minutes, it could not have been longer than that and the time period before, I cannot even recall what I did during that time.

MR LAX: You see, this goes back to the issue of how the items that were used for the torture were brought in and what preparations were made for that next phase of the interrogation and so on. You've no recollection of that, did you not participate in that? Is it that you did and you've just forgotten about it or you're not sure?

MR BOTHMA: I am not sure how the equipment that we used arrived there at the office, I don't know who brought it there, that is what I'm saying. I don't know. It is possible that Mr Botha had brought it in, it's possible that he sent somebody else to fetch it.

ADV BOSMAN: To exclude the possibility that you could have collected and fetched it?

MR BOTHMA: Definitely.

MR LAX: You don't know what happened to Mr Gordhan in that intervening time, was he left in the office, was he questioned further by you or other people in the meantime? Did you carry on questioning him?

MR BOTHMA: I can recall he remained in the office.

MR LAX: Was he blindfolded, was he handcuffed?

MR BOTHMA: No, he was not blindfolded and he was also not cuffed. He was only blindfolded during the second entry of Mr Botha.

MR LAX: So at the time - so we go back to the start of the second phase. You or Duhr tell him to face the window and at that stage he is then - the hood is put over his head or at least over his eyes, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Was Botha in the room already, did he enter the room while he wasn't looking, while Mr Gordhan wasn't looking?

MR BOTHMA: I don't know whether Mr Botha was in the office at that stage because the lights were switched off.

MR LAX: So the lights were switched off and he was made to look at the window and then the process started?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Was that - what was the purpose of that, to hide the identity of the interrogator?

MR BOTHMA: No, I think it was to scare Mr Gordhan.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson, I'll leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

You've said that the hood and the switching off of lights was in your view designed to scare Mr Gordhan. Did you hear any threats being made to Mr Gordhan? Threats and or any unkind statements like for instance "you won't see your family again"?

MR BOTHMA: Yes Chairperson, threats were made to him.

MR LAX: Can you confirm he was sworn at?

MR BOTHMA: It's possible, I cannot recall, it's possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions put by the Panel, Mr Nel?

MR NEL: None, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Just a few Chairperson.

Mr Bothma, the offices you occupied were the offices of the security branch in Bethlehem and I imagine covering parts of the Free State region?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: The head of that office at that time was - I think he was a lieutenant then, Lieutenant Robert-Shaw?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What's that name Mr Gordhan? Robert?

MR GORDHAN: It's a hyphenated name, Chairperson, Robert-Shaw. S-H-A-W.

Is it possible that Mr Robert-Shaw and his staff from Bethlehem might have given a helping hand to find the equipment?

MR BOTHMA: I would speculate if I answered, I don't know.

MR GORDHAN: And Chairperson, just to put some facts so that we clarify this a cession version, the first set of questioning that took place in respect of Mr Botha's role took place in absolutely bright daylight. It was very brief as I said and that has been confirmed. As it became dark both Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma walked in and out several times and they will concede that, they put their files away and so on. As it got darker it was towards twilight, I was then asked to stand my back to the door, my face to the window and the hood was placed over my head, not just the eye, I just want to confirm those facts?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla, do you have any questions?

MR LALLA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Bothma, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down.

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are you calling any witnesses in addition to your applicant?

MR VISSER: Chairperson no, except that it has occurred to us that we might call Mr Botha back because of questions that have been put to other witnesses which really concerns Mr Botha whether he brought the stuff along with him in this new view that we have on the matter of two separate occasions. I think that he should be given an opportunity to tell you what his evidence is. I'm not sure whether he is here, I don't see him. Can I ask for a brief adjournment just to see whether he is here, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just before that I'll just ask Mr Nel whether his applicants are calling any witnesses?

MR NEL: No, Chairperson, I have no witnesses further to call. Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.

MR VISSER: Two issues which have arisen from cross-examination of other witnesses, Chairperson.

Mr Botha ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you commence.

Mr Botha, you're still under your former oath, do you confirm that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Botha, I want to limit you to two aspects. The first is, do you know where the items which you used in the suffocation of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla on that day, that is the blanket, and you say you cannot recall whether it was a towel or what it was but do you recall where those things came from?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, most probably from the offices in Bethlehem. The blanket could have been from the cells and I cannot recall that I took anything with me.

MR VISSER: Can you recall who brought the things to the office where you undertook the interrogation?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And the following aspect, Mr Gordhan says that somewhere while it was still light the original three minutes to which you had referred, you spoke to him and then you left and an hour or two later you returned and then the assault took place. What do you say to that?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, it cannot be correct. My recollection is that the opportunity that I was with Mr Gordhan that was after 5, after the official closing time of the offices and secondly, from my interrogation of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla and the asthma attack, I sent Marius back to the chemist and that was before 6 o'clock. So in an hour and a half I worked with the two people and I cannot recall that there was such a big gap, it was continuous that I worked with Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR NEL: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, any questions?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN:

Mr Botha, I put it to you that your first interaction with me was at the time when there was daylight out of the window?

MR BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that you then had to wait until it became dark?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, there was no reason for me to wait.

MR GORDHAN: Your other colleagues have actually said that lights had to be put out and so on in order to find the right moment because here was a huge window one floor above a street in the centre of Bethlehem, if in fact it wasn't dark and the lights hadn't been put out any member of the public could actually see through that window and see what was happening?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, it was on the first floor and I don't think there are adjacent buildings next door where one can see into the building so I cannot agree with what you are saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gordhan, if I may intervene?

When the actual torture took place the lights were off?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot recall whether the lights were on or off, I knew it was in a given time after the offices had closed between half past 4 and 6 o'clock.

MR LAX: There has been evidence already from two of your colleagues that it was dark, the lights were switched off and it was dark and the purpose of that darkness we are told was to frighten Mr Gordhan or that's what they speculated at any rate?

MR BOTHA: Mr Lax, I recall it is Free State and in the middle of winter so I don't know what time the sun goes down, it may have been dark.

MR LAX: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: The only point - I don't think we're going to go too far and I don't want to take up your time, is my recollection of all of this is fairly crystal clear and I've already put it to Mr Botha, it's up to him to come forward with the facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further questions?

MR LAX: Chair, if I may just interpose?

There's just one issue that's occurred to me and it follows exactly out of the questions you've been asked right now and that is at the time Mr Lalla was questioned, was it dark already?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I really cannot recall whether it was light or dark. If the lights were on and it was dark outside then it may be so but I cannot recall whether it was night or day.

MR LAX: Was Mr Lalla questioned in the very same office or in a different office?

MR BOTHA: The same floor, the offices were diagonally opposite each other.

MR LAX: And the same paraphernalia was used to question him?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that's how I recall it.

MR LAX: You wouldn't dispute the fact that your colleagues have indicated that it was some sort of a rubber tube like device that was used to smother them with? Not a handkerchief but something rubber that was stretchy?

MR BOTHA: My recollection was that it was a cloth or a towel. I have thought about it, I did not have a rubbery thing.

MR LAX: Obviously if it was some sort of fabric it would have to be wet to achieve your purpose?

MR BOTHA: To suffocate him, yes.

MR LAX: It means you would have had to wet it somewhere. Do you remember doing that?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not wet anything but the towel works just as well if you fold it over and pull it tight around his head.

MR LAX: I'm not engaged in that sort of stuff but anyway, thank you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, just one thing which I need clarity on. On the morning when you went out to interrogate the people did you foresee the use of violence?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not drive out with the purpose of torturing them.

ADV BOSMAN: You cannot recall where this equipment came from. Can you recall who brought it there?

MR BOTHA: No I cannot.

ADV BOSMAN: Because I find that strange. If you did not go out with the purpose of using violence then at the stage when you decided to use coercion you must have thought what type of coercion should you use?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, my decision would have been what was available there and that is why I usually would not wrap a person in blankets or the cells would be directly below and I would have obtained a blanket from there. I may have sent one of my colleagues to fetch it or whether I'd asked for it, I cannot recall. The towel would have been available because there were men's and women's toilets which had towels there.

MR LAX: And the blindfold?

MR BOTHA: It could have been a handkerchief.

MR LAX: And the piece of string that was used?

MR BOTHA: No, as far as I know no string was used.

MR LAX: Some of your colleagues conceded that string had been used?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I cannot recall. A rope around the blanket is strange to me.

ADV BOSMAN: I may just tell you that is the strange aspect of the evidence that you cannot recall such an important facet of it.

MR BOTHA: No, that is not my manner of doing this thing if I can explain it as such.

MR LAX: Did you arrange it or did you ask it of someone?

MR BOTHA: Do you refer to the equipment?

MR LAX: The equipment yes.

MR BOTHA: I would have asked for a blanket. I cannot recall if the blanket was brought from the cell or who brought it but I would have asked for it.

MR LAX: And the bag or whatever it was?

MR BOTHA: Whatever was used I would have used what was available there. If there are towels in the toilets and blankets in the cells.

MR LAX: And there would have been a tube or something to that effect because it was used often?

MR BOTHA: There would have been but I cannot recall that I used a tube.

CHAIRPERSON: I think while Mr Botha is here, Mr Gordhan mentioned earlier that he felt that he was curtailed in his questioning and I made a ruling and I've just now been reconsidering, I think that I might have been acting too much like a judge in a trial situation with regard to relevancy. This isn't a trial and I don't think there will be any prejudice if the question Mr Gordhan wants to ask to the applicant, I think I'll allow him to ask the question about what was found - what was it Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GORDHAN: But before that could I could intervene in the current interaction just to reinforce two points, Chairperson. The first is that there was no towel wet or dry that was used. This was a substance through which you couldn't breathe and Mr Lalla has confirmed that in his evidence as well.

CHAIRPERSON: He referred to it as plastic and one of the other witnesses referred to it as a rubber type plastic.

MR GORDHAN: Something that's fairly firm, elastic, not easily porous and therefore no air would be available. In other words it would be pointless using that to suffocate any individual.

The second is that the necessity to have a rope and put around the blanket is to immobilise ones limbs and obviously if one is being suffocated one would resist that suffocation and it makes absolute sense to me that such a device was actually used to mobilise me but let's leave that for the record, Chairperson. I'm quite surprised that after all the details Mr Botha remembers that one he can't remember.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Gordhan can give evidence and he can be cross-examined about it, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Well that's a choice I have, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: But evidence is now given not under oath, Chairperson, as if it's fact for the record. It's not so.

MR GORDHAN: As any lawyer will do, Mr Visser, and you know as well, I can put that to the witness and it's for the Committee to then decide but I don't want to engage in any debate with you, I'm here to question your witness.

Let's talk about the Brickfield Road flat and the fact that some days before the arrest took place on the 12th July you claim that the flat was raided. My question was what information did you get from that flat?

MR LAX: Sorry, if I could just clarify the question? He's not saying the flat was raided, he's saying it was burgled.

MR BOTHA: I've already given that evidence, Chairperson, it is available on the record.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what it is, what evidence, what was obtained?

MR BOTHA: Information with regard to Operation Vula which gave me a better indication as to what the operation was about, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you Mr Botha that no information on Operation Vula specifically was in that flat.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, once again I support my legal representative. It is easy for him, for Mr Gordhan to say that there weren't things and there were things, I know what I found there and I have given complete evidence about it on a previous occasion. The information was more supplementary to what the informant had reported with regard to the content of the operation as it was known to him.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you Mr Botha that you might have found it, I actually put it there and I'm saying to you that I put no information which gave any details about Operation Vula in that flat.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, it is clear that Mr Gordhan is trying to cover up his negligence. They were sophisticated but they were negligent in their information.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I'm unfortunately now tempted to say to Mr Botha that I've been an ANC operative from the early '70s. You've had me in detention three times as the security branch in Durban for a period of over a year in solitary confinement and until that moment you didn't find out anything about me and my involvement in the ANC, so let's just leave the question of sophistication there.

I again put it to you, Mr Botha, that that flat provided you with no detail on the question of the operation. All you found there was general political literature about the underground, the role of the underground, the role of political and military struggle and structures and that your real information came from a host of disks and documentation that you picked up elsewhere?

MR BOTHA: What is your point, Mr Gordhan.

CHAIRPERSON: He is asking what your comments are on that statement, do you agree with that or disagree with that?

MR BOTHA: The completeness of the operation came from the information which we obtained from the computers.

MR LAX: But just, sorry ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Those computers weren't in that flat, were they?

MR BOTHA: There was a computer, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the information obtained from that computer that was there at that flat?

MR BOTHA: There was one document that was on there, Chairperson.

MR LAX: That's exactly what I was going to ask on as well, it's fine.

MR GORDHAN: But you're using choice words like completeness, lets not let that dilute the facts for now. The core data about what Vula was, the reports that went out of the country and came into the country came from another computer, it wasn't in this flat and came from disks which were not in this flat were in some other place where you found them, true?

MR BOTHA: Once again, the completeness of the operation came from all the computers, which one exactly, which computer obtained which information, we'd have to go back to the investigation reports.

MR GORDHAN: So you can't place any clarity on the question that this flat and that computer in that flat and the documents in that flat didn't actually lend too much of core detail to your investigation about who was involved and what was happening?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, about the who was involved, we already knew that and more complete from what my knowledge was up to the moment we entered the flat led that we could inform Pretoria as to the better picture of the operation. The more complete fact of the operation came from the time when all the information was taken from the computers and this continued up to months after the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: The problem here, Mr Botha, is this. Is that initially your answer to Mr Gordhan was emphatic, now your answer is not emphatic, now your answer is that yes, the totality of information - initially your answer was emphatic. From that house you got very definite information. Now it's not emphatic any longer. That's my difficulty because I heard your previous evidence and your previous evidence was in line with what you're saying now, not with the fact that it was emphatic information, so that's the difference.

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, there may be a communication gap. If Mr Lax would please emphatic in this context as you understand it?

MR LAX: Your answer was emphatic in the sense that the information was definite and core. It's clear now from your subsequent answers which is in line with what you testified previously that the totality of the information only came about much later and in conjunction with further information from, on your version, Mr Ndaba and so on and once - the English word escapes me, the "ontleding", the analysis of that information had been carried out. At the time of raiding or burglarising this particular place and this is what Mr Gordhan is putting to you in essence, he is saying there was no information of such a nature that it could have given you core detail. Have I put it correctly? That's what I understood your question to be.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps if I can explain. If you look at the scope of Operation Vula, perhaps that is the problem that the totality of the operation has never really been exposed completely here. We are familiar with an army bag, if you had to fill this with computer printouts that would be an idea of how comprehensive that information was. That information emerged at the end of the investigation and what was found at that apartment upon two occasions that we entered the apartment was information which was not in such a large quantity but which had enough core value and you will see that I gave evidence that there were three phases in which this information was evaluated and the final phase was at the end of the day. When we took the decision to inform Pretoria, it was as a result of the information that was embodied in those documents which were comprehensive enough to explain the NCW Network and if Mr Gordhan wants to deny that that existed I would say that that information was good enough for us to take the decision to consult Pretoria head office.

MR LAX: You see, what Mr Gordhan is putting to you is you didn't get that information, if I understand it correctly, from his computer in that flat, you got it from some other place.

MR BOTHA: Once again I will say I received that information from that apartment.

MR GORDHAN: Well Mr Botha, you must make up your mind. In the first instance you had a servant, so to speak, in Charles Ndaba who was your informant way back in '88 from the moment he came into the country, you had six weeks or so to interrogate him/question him/enquire into what he was happening. Was that the source of your information where the disks, the computers and the printouts that you collected at some other place were the key source of your information or are you saying that a flat would actually have administrative information and core propaganda material is a key provider of information to you. What are you saying?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps Mr Gordhan could answer this question before I answer his. Does he know that weaponry was in that apartment?

MR GORDHAN: Yes and I'm sure that when you burgled the place you planted that as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well we won't get into debate on that.

MR GORDHAN: Can we get back to my question please?

CHAIRPERSON: The question, Mr Botha, is it's put to you my Mr Gordhan that what was contained on that disk that was in the flat in Brickfield Road that was burgled was certain administrative information and what he called core propaganda information. Would you agree with that?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, the information that we drew from that computer and not only from the computer, there were also other documents to be found in the apartment. What we found there was sufficient to supplement the information that we had already received from the informer, it was sufficient to inform the security head office that the information which had come to our knowledge at that stage regarding what the president's committee was and what later became known to us as Operation Vula. It was sufficient to inform them about it.

MR GORDHAN: When did you say you burgled the flat?

MR BOTHA: The Saturday evening or the Sunday evening, the 7th or the 8th.

CHAIRPERSON: Of July 1990?

MR BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Saturday and Sunday, two nights?

MR BOTHA: It was two nights.

MR GORDHAN: But ultimately you only go to the headquarters on the 11th July, many days later. You had the information from that Saturday or Sunday night, you had everything that you claimed that you have, conclusive proof that there was this operation on the way and yet it takes you three or four days to go to your headquarters and tell them this is what's going on?

MR VISSER: That's not the evidence. The evidence was that they went on the 10th, Chairperson, Tuesday the 10th for as far as this may be relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't recall. So the burglary took place on - we take it that the 7th and 8th was a Saturday and Sunday and then you must have, Mr Gordhan must have been arrested then on the ...(intervention)

MR BOTHA: The 12th, the Thursday. The 10th was a Monday and that is when I informed General Steyn.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, so the 7th and 8th - so it must have been the 8th and 9th?

MR BOTHA: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, the 7th was the Saturday night, the 8th was the Sunday night, the Monday was the 9th and that is when I informed General Steyn, Tuesday the 10th we went to Pretoria. On the 12th Mr Gordhan was arrested after the arrest of Mr Nyanda.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went the next day after the last break in?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Just for the record, Chair, of course I'm contesting, Mr Botha, that you arrested me after Mr Nyanda. You actually arrested me before Mr Nyanda.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I'm not going to dispute this point. The fact is that Mr Gordhan was not present when Mr Nyanda was arrested so I don't think that he has the capacity to put this. He was arrested by Warrant Officer van der Westhuizen and that is my response.

MR GORDHAN: Just one last set of questions, Chairperson, and that is again in terms of Mr Ndaba's relationship with Mr Botha and Mr Ndaba was the only of the two detainees, Chairperson, of Mr Shabalala and Mr Ndaba that knew of this flat so that you have that information. He was a member of, I think you mention in your earlier evidence, a military committee. What did he say about the membership of that committee, who were the members of that committee?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I did not give evidence indicating that he was a member of the military committee, you've just said so.

MR GORDHAN: Do you have any recollection of that information being passed on to you?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR GORDHAN: Who did he say were members of that committee?

MR BOTHA: He mentioned quite a few names.

MR GORDHAN: Can you think of one other than his own?

MR BOTHA: The detail is no longer known to me but it is available.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions - sorry, Mr Lalla, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LALLA: Mr Botha ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, your mike's gone off again.

MR LALLA: Mr Botha, from the time that I came in to the time that I got arrested, so what are effectively telling me from the summary of all these events you knew my movements?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson, I've already testified this morning that I did not know your movements.

MR LALLA: But you testified as well that you knew Mr Gordhan's movements?

MR VISSER: He did not say anything of the kind, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't know, I can't recall any evidence about knowing the movements of people.

MR LALLA: Okay, what effectively you are saying is that by observing and having surveillance of all these places, you knew the general movements of these individuals?

MR BOTHA: Some of the people, yes.

MR LALLA: Why I'm putting this question to you is a follow up to Mr Gordhan's question. Does that mean that you followed Mr Gordhan?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not say that.

MR LALLA: Okay. Were you aware that within the day, that since I came into the country and to the time I was arrested, that I had a meeting with Mr Gordhan and it's not reflected in any of your reports?

MR BOTHA: It is irrelevant to me, I don't know.

MR LALLA: Now why I'm posing these questions to you is that there seems to be selective coincidences and tying of issues and tying of incidences and tying of reports and a massive picture of some degree of control. What I'm trying to establish is that if Mr Ndaba was an informer at that time and if Mr Ndaba told you all about the house at the Knoll, surely you would have had surveillance of the Knoll and if you had had surveillance of the Knoll, surely at some stage or the other you would have known that Mr Gordhan and I met. Mr Gordhan, I was never questioned about any meetings of Mr Gordhan during the time of my interrogation which was quite alarming. What I'm reflecting is that I am saying that most of your information you got from the computers and some information in the process which could not have been achieved from the computer was basically the personal interaction and that's why I'm throwing some doubt on the issue of Mr Ndaba. If he knew, he would know the houses, there would be surveillance on the houses ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could just put a question to Mr Botha so he can answer?

MR LAX: Sorry, if I could just clarify as well, the evidence has been that the Knoll was under observation during that time.

MR LALLA: So was anybody followed?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, that is what led to the arrest of Nyanda.

MR LALLA: But you are saying, you are saying that the house was observed, you are saying the people were followed but you are saying that you didn't know how I got arrested, how I was there?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps I could facilitate this for Mr Lalla. The Knoll was under observation, the house in Brickfield was under observation, many other houses were under observation, we were a core group of people who had knowledge, one of the activities of Vula and those people involved, there was not a big team of observation which could observe these places for 24 hours at a stretch. We ourselves undertook the observation and if there had been a meeting between Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla at the Knoll or at any other place, it is possible and I concede because we did not observe the place for 24 hours.

MR LAX: Just one question, if I may Chair? Who carried out the observation of these various places?

MR BOTHA: I was involved in The Knoll, Lieutenant du Preez was involved, Wasserman was involved, Brickfield Road was Warrant Officer van der Westhuizen because he lived closed by, it was easier for him to get there, we took turns to observe the place.

MR LAX: Those were the only people that kept observation there?

MR BOTHA: Those were the only people.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions?

MR LALLA: Only one last question. In relation to the night of the interrogation, what was unusual about the night and that's why I'm a bit doubtful whether this was not well thought of by yourself and when I'm saying yourself I'm excluding the other members. It was rather unusual for us, we were normally interrogated in another room on the ground floor with burglar bars. On that specific night or that specific afternoon we were taken to the first floor and it was the only afternoon that we were taken to the first floor. I think we were taken to the first floor round about ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You were taken.

MR LALLA: Oh, I, I think it was the only afternoon where I was taken to that first floor around about 4.30 or 5 that afternoon?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I don't know where the previous interrogation had taken place or in which office. I worked with them in those two offices and that was on the first floor.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions arising? Re-examination Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gordhan?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, the issue of houses under observation and following people comes up.

Was I followed around for those few days?

MR BOTHA: No Mr Gordhan, you weren't.

MR GORDHAN: Because just for your information all the information that I had about Vula was at another place which you actually never discovered. What did Mr Ndaba tell you about the houses at which these meetings took place that he attended, where were they? The meetings?

MR BOTHA: It was in Durban.

MR GORDHAN: Which area?

MR BOTHA: I cannot recall precisely.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, thank you Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, you've now got to make a decision whether you want to testify. You've indicated earlier that you had not but I haven't explained the implications of testifying or not testifying. At the moment we have evidence under oath from the applicants. We know that certain aspects of that evidence has been put into issue by yourselves and we know that from the nature and content of the questions that you have asked them. However, if the way to contradict evidence is to actually give evidence as well because if at the end of the day we only have the evidence of the applicants and no other evidence controverting that, that doesn't necessarily mean that the evidence of the applicants has to be accepted because we examine the evidence, we analyse it, we deal with it in connection with the probabilities, whether there's self-contradictions, contradictions amongst that evidence, so it's not automatic that it will be accepted but if it stands uncontroverted by any other evidence, it's more difficult to reject, it's got to be inherently weak in order to have it rejected. So I'd like you to think carefully before you make a decision as to whether or not you're going to give evidence bearing that in mind. If there's anything further you wish to know please ask and I'm sure between the three of us we will be able to answer your questions.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, just for your information, I have given this fairly careful consideration. It's a point I'm going to repeat when you give me an opportunity to sum up. I'm not an individual here, I was part of an organisation, I was part of a huge operation in the country. The leader of that operation was the former Minister of Transport, Mr Mac Maharaj who has already given evidence before the Committee but I don't think you were in the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: No I wasn't, I've been actually brought into these hearings because of the unfortunate illness of my colleague and Chairman, Judge Mall.

MR GORDHAN: So that evidence was on oath, there was cross-examination on the part of the legal representatives of the other side. Secondly, I think you've had a fair balance of exposure to facts both from Mr Botha and others and the benefit of the questions and these huge piles of documentation available and thirdly is unfortunately, even if we start that now, I don't think we'll finish before the end of today and I'm afraid I'm not actually available to stay over until tomorrow. So those are the reasons so that you don't think that I'm slighting the Committee in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not a question of us thinking you're slighting it, Mr Gordhan, but thank you. Mr Lalla?

MR LALLA: I've also given this a great deal of thought and I'm sure that this chapter will not remain closed after we leave here but for the interim I leave the process in the hands of the Committee to take further action or further decision.

CHAIRPERSON: So you both now confirm that, your decision that you will not be testifying?

MR LALLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also of course have the right to call witnesses, do you have any intention of calling any witnesses?

MR GORDHAN: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well thank you, that then concludes the leading of evidence in this matter and what remains now is for submissions to be made. It's for the information of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, the submissions will be made. The applicants get the opportunity to make through their representatives submissions and then you two answer and then the applicants have the right to reply to your answer. Mr Visser?

MR VISSER IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm going to be brief. This is an application before you for the assault on both Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla. One of the outstanding features here, Chairperson, is that there is no dispute about the method or the intensity of the assault as testified to by the applicants through Mr Gordhan's or Mr Lalla's cross-examination.

Chairperson, least I forget, the application for amnesty, I specified specifically assault at page 1 of D, Chairperson, or any other delict or offence. I did not specify, Chairperson, the obvious one and that is defeating the ends of justice by not having reported it later but in line with previous applications, Chairperson, we will ask you to include that under that general heading under B.

Chairperson, Botha has given evidence on a number of occasions about Operation Vula. You have documents before you about Operation Vula. We know what it was more or less about. What Botha said at the hearing when you were not present, Chairperson, was that he had received information - well, perhaps I should just fill you in on the background.

Botha says he went to Swaziland in 1988 and approached Mr Ndaba directly to become an informer and Mr Ndaba did so. Mr Maharaj gave a very good reason why that would have happened. He said that at the time in 1988 ANC MK operatives in Swaziland was under pressure because the enemy was making life very difficult for them. Perhaps that might have been the reason why Mr Ndaba decided to become an informer but that's not relevant why he did so. Mr Botha says he did.

Then Chairperson, in 1988 Mr Ndaba became the deputy commander of the Natal urban machinery of MK in Swaziland. That was a very important event because Mr Botha explained the moment that happened his name automatically was placed on the list of Trevits who was security organisation composed of different sections of the security establishment in order to identify targets in other countries, particularly in our neighbouring countries. And then Chairperson, what he did, that is Botha, is he suggested to Mr Ndaba that he should try to arrange for him to be recalled to Lusaka because Botha was afraid that Ndaba might be eliminated. That's just a little bit of background, Chairperson. He then gave Ndaba a name of a contact person in Malawi plus his address and telephone number as well as a contact person in Swaziland and his telephone number.

Then Chairperson, we come to 1990. According to Mr Maharaj, Ndaba came into the R.S.A. illegally on the 4th or the 7th February 1990. That accords with the evidence of Mr Botha who says it was early in 1990. Approximately six weeks before the 7th July 1990, Botha says Ndaba contacted him, it was a direct contact, telephonic and certain meetings were then held. Botha could remember as I remember his evidence of two or three such meetings. During this time Mr Ndaba informed Botha that he had become involved in an operation which was headed by Mr Oliver Tambo himself and he referred to the President's Committee and he gave Mr Botha certain information. Mr Botha was quite clear that he was unable to recall what information was precisely given to him at what date but what is important, Chairperson, was that Ndaba was arrested on the 7th July by an askari, as it turned out later by two askaris.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, but what date was that?

MR VISSER: Saturday, 7 July. Botha is called down to C.R. Swart Square and when he arrives there he finds Ndaba there and obviously he wants Ndaba to be released. There's already a risk because an askari, as it later turned out, two askaris had knowledge of the arrest and Ndaba is then taken - and I don't want to dwell too long on Ndaba, Chairperson, but Ndaba is then taken to a safe house in Verulam where he is debriefed by Mr Botha.

Very shortly after arriving there Botha is told by Ndaba that he has a prior arrangement to meet Mr Shabalala and to cut a long story short, Chairperson, due to circumstances prevailing at the time and what happened there, Mr Shabalala is arrested and also taken to the safe house. As a result of information, Chairperson, received from Ndaba on the 7th and on the 8th July that weekend on the Saturday and on the Sunday, suddenly the light goes up for Botha and he starts understanding how this whole operation of the president's committee or whatever you want to call it, fits together. He is given addresses of safe houses by Ndaba which are later confirmed, Chairperson. I refer you to Exhibit H, that is the statement of evidence by General Steyn in the Ndaba matter where he quotes from the judgement of the magistrate in the bail application of Mr Nyanda where the addresses were confirmed as were other things for example weapons importation etc. etc. and because of this new picture, Botha informs Steyn and Steyn says lets go to head office which they do on Tuesday the 10th. Now Chairperson, Mr Maharaj as well as Mr Gordhan has made a point of attempting to convince you that Mr Ndaba was no informer.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, this particular Panel sitting on this hearing will make no finding in that regard because we have not received that evidence, that will be for the Panel dealing with the so-called Ndaba and Shabalala incident but ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Just so, Chairperson, I'm just mentioning this as a matter of background and because it was raised but of course, Chairperson, the fact of the matter is that Operation Vula was smashed because of information which could only have come from Ndaba.

Now if I may come to the present matter, Chairperson. At the time there was suspicion of a mole, an enemy agent, in the security branch at C.R. Swart. Mr Mac Maharaj confirmed that, that there was such a person. This at once explained why about two weeks - well, even less, after the arrests of the Operation Vula people had been made, he went to Bethlehem to go and ascertain from Mr Gordhan who - what the identity of this person was. He told you here that he had good reason to believe that Mr Gordhan knew who it was and that was in fact confirmed by Mr Gordhan's questioning here today, he knew who it was and the rest, Chairperson, are facts which you are aware of. Mr Gordhan and I take it Mr Lalla, appeared to oppose these applications on the trite issues set out in the requirements of the Act, no full disclosure. The closest that Mr Gordhan could draw the non-full disclosure is in regard to his arrest which is not to remain to the issues before you today. The fact that the - as it appeared, Chairperson, from the questioning, that the assault would have taken place because of a personal vengeance or personal malice or spite on the part of Mr Botha, no basis is laid for that. There's no evidence before you, tested under cross-examination which even vaguely hints at it except for the statements put by Mr Gordhan to Mr Botha.

And lastly then, Chairperson, there might even have been a hint of disproportionality. Mr Botha, with great respect, gave frank evidence before you. He has made various concessions which shows and proves in our respectful submission his credibility and we submit in brief, Chairperson, there is no evidence at all to make a finding against Botha on any of the counts which I've just mentioned.

Chairperson, it is clear that also again from the cross-examination of Mr Gordhan that what took place on that day in July/August 1990 in Bethlehem had everything to do with a political background and political motivation. It was quite clear that the armed struggle was still at the time proceeding, in fact the armed struggle was only suspended on the 6th August, if I remember correctly Chairperson, 1990 which is a date which follows the occurrences of the present incident and Mr Botha also gave evidence here to you to say that while the bomb attacks had diminished, other type of attacks were taking place particularly that in Natal or between the IFP and the ANC which was just another dimension as we all know, Chairperson, of the armed struggle. So the armed struggle was by far not something of the past when these assaults took place.

We say, Chairperson, that it is clear on the evidence that has been given to you under oath that it was a very brief encounter. Ten to fifteen minutes. Chairperson, nothing turns on another fifteen minutes for that matter but the fact is that all the witnesses recorded to have been brief, it was not a savage assault and even if it was, Chairperson, amnesty also provides for savage assaults but the fact is, in our submission, it does appear to be proportional to the ends which Mr Botha intended to achieve.

All in all, Chairperson, we submit that you would not have a problem with the evidence of Mr Botha or for that matter of any of the witnesses. The contradictions such as they appeared from the evidence are such as one would expect from honest witnesses attempting to recall what happened nine years before. There was no inherent improbability in anything that the witnesses stated and there certainly wasn't a fatal contradiction between them on any essential part of the elements for which - of the incident for which they apply for amnesty.

We would therefore ask you, Chairperson, to favourably consider that amnesty be granted to Mr Botha as prayed for. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Nel, do you have any submissions to make?

MR NEL IN ARGUMENT: Yes thank you, Chairperson.

As I've indicated at previous hearings, I'm always in the position, the nice position to argue after senior counsel so there is not much more that I can say but with regards to my applicants, Chairperson, I can only submit that it's my humble submission that my clients submitted their application for amnesty on the prescribed form. It's my submission to this Committee that the Acts to which these applications are related are associated with a political objective committed in the course of the conflict of the past. The main focus lies on Section 20, sub-section 1 (a), (b) and (c) and I do submit that those requirements have been met.

Of course the other hurdle that my clients have is to place them in the category as mentioned in Section 20, 2(a) to (g) and I respectfully submit, Chairperson, that all three of my clients falls within sub-sections (b) and (f) that being employment of the State and they believe that they were acting in the course and scope of their duties.

Finally, Chairperson, the provisions of Section 20 3(i) and (ii) excludes a person if he acted for personal gain or out of personal malice or ill will or spite and I do, with respect, submit that my clients did not do that.

CHAIRPERSON: It would also seem that your clients were acting under instruction?

MR NEL: Chairperson, the evidence given by my clients were straightforward, it was not disputed and not contested and I also ask this Committee to consider their application for amnesty favourably and I cannot see that it could be done otherwise. Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's been brought to my attention by Advocate Bosman that the applicants have all been applying for amnesty mainly in regard to the offence of assault. If one takes a look at the definition of gross human rights violations as contained in the Act, it talks about assault being one where there has been serious injury but it also specifically refers to torture. Now we all know that torture always involves an assault of some form or another but one would imagine that they've identified torture separately from assault to include torture even if there hasn't been serious physical injury so are there any submissions? If the applications were to succeed should it be granted in respect of assault or should the word torture be involved.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps Mr Visser if I may just add, or perhaps assault with intention to do grievous bodily harm?

MR VISSER: Yes well assault in all it's various forms would fall under assault. Well, Chairperson, that I leave in your discretion but we're thankful for having been alerted to the issue which Commissioner Bosman has brought up. It would appear, Chairperson, speaking off the top of my head that the difference between an assault and torture would certainly involve also the mental agony to the victim and certainly, if on the facts of the matter it is found that there was such mental agony and apparently there was, then torture would be the correct thing to apply for. Chairperson, may I just on that score and I don't want to take up more of your time than is absolutely necessary, we have submitted very recently that perhaps, Chairperson, as you know that from the beginning we all have had difficulties with certain provisions of the Act which could have been a little clearer and one of the remaining issues, Chairperson, is - and I know very well what Commissioner de Jager's attitude about this is in specifying offences for which you apply for amnesty but the question really here is does the Act really expect the Committee to find on the facts which precise offences or delicts had been committed or is it not really the function of the Committee in the intention of the legislature simply to grant amnesty for all offences and delicts committed in the confines of a particular incident. Now I don't want to take that much further but if my submission is correct that on a proper reading of the Act the interpretation must be that it is not your function and that all that is expected of you is to grant amnesty for any delict or offence committed specifying a particular offence. Then Chairperson, all these issues fall away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you agree with that?

MR NEL: I agree with Mr Visser, thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, my attorney is again more clever than I was, I didn't think of this. There is of course no offence, torture.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I know that, I know that but maybe just to - one could bring it in, you know, just to indicate that a hearing was held in this matter because there was torture and therefore a gross human rights violation.

MR VISSER: And apart from that then perhaps Commissioner Bosman's suggestion to me just now is becoming to make more sense to me that one should rather then perhaps speak of assaults in any of it's forms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'm not quite sure that one has to start with the intent to due grievous bodily harm because if you gave amnesty for assault, Chairperson, I doubt very much whether the Attorney General is going to prosecute for assault with the intention to do grievous bodily harm but be that as it may, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Gordhan, are you ready to make any submissions now?

MR GORDHAN IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson.

In the first instance, Chairperson, I want to say that as far as Mr Duhr, Mr Bothma and Mr Greyling are concerned, I believe that the spirit in which they have approached this hearing and application is one in which they seriously regret their past conduct, that they have a commitment to building a new South Africa, that they have a commitment to being part of our new nation and above all they have a commitment to reconciliation and in those circumstances and given their political role, certainly in as far as the assault is concerned, I have no problems in agreeing to any decision that you would make that they be granted amnesty in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR GORDHAN: I must however point out that as far as the last interaction about what is torture and what isn't and whether it's a human rights violation or not, the Committee might want to take into account that solitary confinement where you are a total captive to the whims, fancies, desires or otherwise of a group of persons who are there to perpetuate a racist ideology is one that must be considered a serious violation of human rights. If one is in the situation where you have no contact with family, no contact with law, you only have contact with the lawyer, a doctor that they can choose, you have no access to your own medical personnel, you have only access to a bible, upon request you can get religious material of any other denomination, you have no access to reading material, they will only allow clothes that they deem fit that a family might want to send to you, they might allow an odd packet of biscuits to reach you from time to time otherwise nothing if they desire not to, you'll have a bath at their leisure and pleasure, you won't have it if they don't want you to have it, if you can shave if they want you to shave, you don't shave if they don't want you to shave and I can go on, Chairperson. That's the condition in which people who subsequently played a leading role in both the negotiations for this country, that brought us where we are and in it's first democratic government were subjected to during the course of what we described as this set of events here.

The second thing, Chairperson, is Mr Visser has in the absence of Mr Maharaj tried to recapture his version or his interpretation of the set of events from 1988 leading right up to 1990. I don't want to counter every fact or detail, all I want to say is that one needs to balance that out with the evidence that a previous Panel which included two of the people that are here heard from Mr Maharaj as a contrary or alternate set of facts. But there is some interesting terminology used there when he says that during the weekend of the 7th and 8th when Mbuso Shabalala and Charles Ndaba were in the hands of Mr Botha and others, he used the word "the light goes up" and suddenly there's an understanding on Mr Botha's part of what were the circumstances that were prevailing in relation to the Vula project. I submit to you, Chairperson, that how can a light suddenly go up when here for four to six weeks you've had free access to an informer who is allegedly working for you from 1988? That at that stage no computer tapes, computer disks, computer material, computers or any other personnel were in the hands of the security police or Mr Botha but just having - and earlier I think we heard that Mr Shabalala was also not cooperative, so the same person who was the informant, having spent a weekend with Mr Botha, suddenly becomes the source of the lights going up. I think that's a very dubious interpretation to be granted to the circumstances of that point in time.

As far as moles/informants accessed by the ANC in the pay of the police or security branch are concerned, there's a long standing practice in the ANC, Chairperson, at that time to actually recruit the police. It's not something new, The Owl wasn't the first person to be recruited by the ANC, nor was it the last at that point in time. So moles or informants who were connected to the ANC were a permanent feature of the struggle for democracy as far as the ANC was concerned. Why there had to be this inordinate desire to suddenly find out who The Owl is and do it personally and then do it vindictively is something that in my view lacks credibility from the evidence that we've heard.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Gordhan, if I may just sort of come in here? Should one not perhaps look at the extent of the Vula Operation and accept that, you know, the fact that the Vula Operation was seen to be such an extensive and almost dramatic operation that made it perhaps a little more important to find a particular mole?

MR GORDHAN: I submit not, the armed struggle has been going on from 1961 and from day onwards the ANC has been infiltrating cadres, it's been training cadres, it's been recruiting people within the country, it's been setting up structures and I can go on, Advocate Bosman. So Vula, whilst it was a big operation, should not be seen in isolation from the history of the struggle that this country has actually gone through.

Reference was then also made to the fact that the armed struggle was still continuing at the point in time that the assault took place. That's not true Chairperson. The fact of the matter is that Mr Maharaj was detained on the 25th July, that in his pocket when he was detained was the actual draft of the ANC's proposal to be tabled in the discussions leading to the Pretoria Accord dated the 6th August 1990 which stated explicitly as the court itself will demonstrate that the ANC had the intention to suspend armed actions and that in any event was the implicit understanding that both the government and the ANC through the dialogue that they were having from February 1990 onwards and indeed prior to that, through Mr Mandela and Mr de Klerk, Mr Mandela and Mr Botha while Mr Mandela was still in prison. That was the understanding that was already beginning to develop and to justify the assault on the grounds that either the Vula operatives or any other ANC operative was still engaging in active armed struggle is being less than frank with us. Equally problematic, Chairperson, is to deflect the importance of what was happening here by making reference to problems between the ANC and IFP in KwaZulu Natal. Now that alone will take many days of evidence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and I know and it was getting hotter and hotter at that period, it was the period with the SDUs and all sorts of things. All three of us here, Mr Gordhan, are fully acquainted with it having ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: I have no intention of repeating the facts, saves ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In fact it crossed my mind when I was listening to the evidence about the cessation of the armed violence etc., it didn't take into account particularly what was happening here in KwaZulu Natal which continued right up through to 1994.

MR GORDHAN: But equally important is that a colleague of Mr Botha's of the same name Louis Botha was an instrumental person in passing on resources to the IFP and there's many things that have happened that I don't want to recall now save to say that that in my view and submission is purely a diversion which the Committee shouldn't become too preoccupied with.

Then Chairperson, there are a number of contradictions that we've heard in the course of the day, contradictions about whether I was calm or aggressive, contradictions about my level of cooperation, or otherwise the duration of the whole assault itself, the difference in time between when the first interaction took place with Mr Botha and the second interaction, contradictions about the time of my arrest in relation to that of Mr Nyanda, contradiction about whether there was daylight or dark when this whole set of sagas actually emerged and all of which I believe indicates the fact that we haven't had sufficient frankness in the evidence put to us by Mr Botha himself. It is my view that in the first instance, Chairperson, although Mr Botha has been quite frank about the fact that he solely took the decision to assault myself and that he went through some of those details in a fairly frank way. He still has not, I think, addressed sufficiently and persuasively the type of equipment if you can call it that and how it was obtained in my view and in that sense in part we do not have sufficient detail being put before the Committee about the facts of the matter. As far as political motive is concerned, Chairperson, there's no doubt this was a personal decision, it was part of a pattern which I believe Mr Botha has practised within the police, he admitted that he has operated outside the law, he has admitted that the Minister wouldn't necessarily be informed about what's going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think on that one, Mr Gordhan, all these amnesty applications relate to offences or crimes so if it wasn't out of the law, there's no point in somebody applying for amnesty for an entirely legal act so that is given that it should be an offence or a crime.

MR GORDHAN: Well let me put it in - thank you for that clarification.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry or a delict I might say because one of the effects of the granting of amnesty is to affect the right of the victim to sue for compensation. So it's a crime or delict.

MR GORDHAN: Well even the law which prescribed how detainees should be maintained and that law - and in fact guidelines were initiated during my first detention in 1981 when Mr Agget was in our view murdered or killed in the hand of - committed suicide I believe whilst in detention in Johannesburg. But those laws are not followed, magistrates are ignored, district surgeons are not taken seriously so you have a paraphernalia, a set of mechanisms put into place which in fact are there for window dressing purposes and nobody actually took seriously. One can only say, Chairperson, that a very high level of personal vindictiveness and culture of violence was or the previous position to violence was the motivating factor in this regard.

As far as proportionality is concerned, I believe I have addressed that, the bulk of the information was available already. As far as moles are concerned there was no impelling reason to find out who that mole was in that point in time, information that we wanted we already had and many things were done with that particular set of information and in any event that particular mole called The Owl was not a unique phenomenon in the relationship between the ANC and the police at that point in time.

Finally, Chairperson, I believe that as the previous president would say we will have had less than frank answers, I believe, in the submissions put to you that there is no serious remorse about the kind of actions that were taken and the approach of Mr Botha as far as reconciliation is concerned is still wanting in sincerity in my view and I want to leave him with an appeal that he think seriously, not in my case, but having been party to the killing of Mbuso Shabalala and Charles Ndaba, that he gives very serious thought to letting those families have the bodies of their people, let those bodies be buried with dignity and with caring by their families and that perhaps when all these proceedings are over he should at least cooperate in that final and very important step of reconciliation to leave their minds at rest. My assault doesn't necessarily feature in this regard. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla do you have any submissions you would like to make?

MR LALLA IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson. In regard to Mr Greyling, I have no objection to his amnesty application. In regards to Mr Botha I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Although I respect the Commission's viewpoint that his amnesty is for the individual assault of torture, I find it difficult to isolate all those various different assaults, incidents and killings which he himself has admitted to and to distinguish this between his personal character and that of an officer fulfilling the duties of a higher command. But however, I leave it to the wisdom of the Commission to decide on his fate. Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lalla. Ms Thabethe, do you have any submissions?

MS THABETHE: No submissions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any reply Mr Visser?

MR VISSER IN REPLY: Chairperson, very briefly. We've anticipated most of the points but as far as Mr Gordhan's submissions are concerned, he says that there was no or there was not sufficient frankness and as I understand it, Chairperson, nothing else is advanced to you except that he shows no sincere regret and that his evidence does not promote reconciliation. Well, with respect Chairperson, I don't need to address you on those issues. Certainly showing regret is no requirement of the Act and whether or not his evidence shows reconciliation does not detract from the fact that what he said may not have been palatable to some people as long as you are convinced and satisfied, Chairperson, that what he said was the truth.

Chairperson, the issue of the address of the type of equipment and how it was obtained, he was very frank, he says he can't remember and it really is a side issue, Chairperson, it is not a material issue. We've dealt with the personal vindictiveness Chairperson, there's no evidence to indicate that at all except statements made in cross-examination.

Chairperson, lastly as far as the mole is concerned, Botha tells you it was important to find out who it was and one can easily understand why. This person probably had access to information about informers, about information about reports that came in etc. etc. which he could pass on to the enemy. With great respect, Chairperson, if Botha tells you that it was important to find it out there's no reason to doubt that assertion. That's all we have to say, Chairperson, in response and we again ask you to favourably consider the amnesty application of Mr Botha.

Just perhaps lastly, Chairperson, the same goes for the alleged contradictions about times etc. etc., the contradictions were raised by Mr Gordhan, it wasn't raised by the applicants. The applicants in fairness conceded as possibilities certain time lapses which were put to them by Mr Gordhan. Mr Gordhan cannot on the strength of that now submit to you, Chairperson, that there are contradictions which are material. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Nel, do you have any reply?

MR NEL: I have nothing in reply, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, that therefore leaves just one aspect of this matter and that is the decision to be handed down by this Panel. We will reserve our decision, we will need to deliberate on it and in any event I prefer to hand down a written decision so the decision will be reserved and that then brings the hearing to a conclusion.

Our next matter, as I mentioned this morning, on the roll is the so-called Khubeka incident which will only commence tomorrow. I see now that it's just on 4 o'clock, we will then adjourn for the day. Ms Thabethe, the people involved in tomorrow, what time will be convenient to start tomorrow morning? Are there any other lawyers coming in who are starting who aren't here?

MR VISSER: I personally don't know, Chairperson, but we have in the past attempted to start at half past 9, we have more often than not, not been successful but we have tried to start at half past nine in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd prefer to start earlier in the morning and that will give us more meaningful day in terms of time.

MR VISSER: Could I suggest we try for half past nine?

CHAIRPERSON: Seeing as it's the first morning of that particular hearing we'll adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you Chairperson for your accommodation and attitude. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your assistance to the legal representatives, Messrs Gordhan and Lalla, thank you. We'll now adjourn until tomorrow morning at half past nine.