CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would like to start the proceedings. For the record today is Thursday the 18th November 1999. It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the Durban Christian Centre. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The first matter that we will be hearing this morning is the amnesty application of Mr M M Jili, amnesty reference number AM7643/97. For the record I'm going to ask the parties legal representatives to go on record. Ms Loonat, I think you're for the applicant.

MS LOONAT: Good morning Mr Chairperson, learned Members of the Committee. I am Mrs Zerina Loonat and I'm representing the applicant, Mr Jili, this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Loonat. And then for the next-of-kin, Ms Reddy?

MS REDDY: Chairperson, I'm actually representing the victims in this family namely the Ferrero family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's Ms Reddy is it? And the leader of evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson I'm Zuko Mapoma, I'm the leader of evidence. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Ms Loonat, do you want your client to take the oath?

MS LOONAT: Yes please.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Jili, please tell the Members of the Committee how old you are?

MR JILI: I am 25 years old and I'm about to turn 26.

MS LOONAT: Where do you live?

MR JILI: I was born in KwaMashu and now I'm residing in Richmond.

MS LOONAT: Which party are you a member of?

MR JILI: ANC.

MS LOONAT: Are you a card carrying member and have you got proof of that?

MR JILI: Yes I am.

MS LOONAT: And do you have proof of this?

MR JILI: Yes I do have that card but I don't have it in my possession right now but it is at home.

MS LOONAT: At the time when you entered politics who was your leader?

MR JILI: Siphiso Kabindo was our leader.

MS LOONAT: In what respect was he your leader, did he give you instructions or how was he your leader?

MR JILI: He was a leader in the area and we used to go and join to him as ANC members, he's the one who was giving us cards or was issuing the membership cards.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you join the ANC?

MR JILI: In 1991.

MS LOONAT: Tell me, was there any kind of political turmoil in your area?

MR JILI: Yes there was as from 1992 and from 1993.

MS LOONAT: And what did you do about it?

MR JILI: A certain organisation used to attack us, shoot at us and sometimes take our cattle.

MS LOONAT: What is the name of your organisation, do you know?

MR JILI: It is the people from Apateni not the organisation, from a Apateni and their leader was Mbashlazi.

MS LOONAT: What party did they belonged to, do you know?

MR JILI: IFP members.

MS LOONAT: How often did they attack your area?

MR JILI: It will be three times a week.

MS LOONAT: As from when would you say, as from 1992 onwards?

MR JILI: It's from 1992 onwards.

MS LOONAT: What did you do about these attacks?

MR JILI: We ...(inaudible)

MS LOONAT: I didn't hear the translation.

INTERPRETER: That's because I didn't because I was disturbed.

MS LOONAT: Sorry about that. I'll put the question again.

Mr Jili, what did you do about these persistent attacks on your area?

MR JILI: After they had come and attacked us sometimes we would run away and go and hide in the bushes and then later we decided that we needed to arm ourselves so that we don't have to run away from our homes.

MS LOONAT: You say we decided to arm ourselves, please explain that?

MR JILI: I will put it this way, there was a commander. His name is Kotele Sibonele. He was the one who usually gave us instructions that we were supposed to go and combat them, to go in the area where we will block them from coming into our community and attack them as they were coming to attack us.

MS LOONAT: How many of you were there when you retaliated?

MR JILI: Sometimes we will be thirty, sometimes thirty five and sometimes less than that, sometimes twenty nine, depending on what time the attack was launched because sometimes we will wait for people to come from work to join us.

MS LOONAT: Mr Jili, when you were given instructions to fight back, what exactly was your instructions, did you have firearms, what did you actually do?

MR JILI: Some had firearms and some didn't have.

MS LOONAT: And do you own your own firearm?

MR JILI: At that time I didn't have.

MS LOONAT: Where did you get the firearms from?

MR JILI: When we launched attacks we usually armed ourselves with spears and sticks but Mtuduzi used to give me his firearm.

MS LOONAT: Who is Mtuduzi?

MR JILI: Mtuduzi Jama.

MS LOONAT: Who was he, was he a friend, a leader? Who was he?

MR JILI: He was also a member of the ANC and he was one of us.

MS LOONAT: You mean one of us carrying on our fighting on a regular basis, is that what you mean?

MR JILI: Yes one of us who were also counter-attacking our enemies.

MS LOONAT: Do you have any training in the use of firearms?

MR JILI: No.

MS LOONAT: Tell me, were these firearms supplied to you by Mr Sibonele, Kotene Sibonele, or by Mr Mtuduzi Jama?

MR JILI: Mtuduzi used to lend me his firearm.

MS LOONAT: Where is Mr Sibonele at the moment, your commander?

MR JILI: He is now late, he passed away in 1994.

MS LOONAT: On the 27th April 1993 you and some of your co-perpetrators entered the home of Mr Ferrero, the farm house of Mr Ferrero, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes that is correct.

MS LOONAT: Please tell us what led up to your going to that farm house on that day, why did you go and who arranged the whole thing?

MR JILI: Bongani Zuma was the one who organised this whole thing.

MS LOONAT: What did he organise?

MR JILI: He organised that since the people from Apateni who were attacking usually go past that farm and pick up weapons there and come and attack us, therefore we were supposed to go there in that farm and pick up those firearms.

MS LOONAT: Are you saying that the victim was supplying firearms to the IFP members, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MS LOONAT: Did you have any proof of that besides Bongani Zama telling you that?

MR JILI: When I was told that the weapons and the firearms were taken from that farm five of us or five guys who belonged to our community went to that farm to check if this was true and they discovered that there were weapons but then those weapons were not as many and then we believed that they were probably many other weapons in that farm because the attackers usually passed that farm when they turned to attack us.

MS LOONAT: What time of the day or night was it that you entered the farm?

MR JILI: It was in the morning at about 10 o'clock.

MS LOONAT: What did you do then?

MR JILI: From where we camped some of us went back to our homes to go and rest because we were not asleep part of the night and ...(intervention)

MS LOONAT: Sorry Mr Jili. Sorry, one moment. The question I'm asking you is when you entered the farm what happened, not when you left the farm. When you entered the farm with your five colleagues what transpired that morning.

MR JILI: Mr Ferrero was going towards his car and we approached him there, we had firearms and then later I heard a gun firing and myself and Sibongile and Tanda, we entered the house together with Mr Ferrero and Mduduzi came there and asked him as to where the firearms where and he only issued one firearm and then Mduduzi asked him about the other firearms and then he said he no longer had other firearms except for that one, that was the last one and then Mduduzi also asked for ammunition and later I heard a gun fire again and then I asked them as to where they were taking these - they took firearms, ammunition and his bag as well.

MS LOONAT: You say you were on the farm and whilst you were talking to Mr Ferrero you heard gunshots. Can you please be more specific, was it on the farm or was it in the neighbouring area?

MR JILI: On the farm.

MS LOONAT: What did you do thereafter?

MR JILI: We went inside his house and Mr Ferrero said there were no longer other firearms. We left.

MS LOONAT: Two of the occupants of the house were murdered that day, please tell us how that came about?

MR JILI: As we left the house we saw Mduduzi outside the veranda and Mduduzi gave me the firearm which belonged to Mr Ferrero and told me that I should shoot Mrs Ferrero. I didn't even ask him why he wasn't the one who is shooting Mrs Ferrero, why he was asking me to do so because I realised then there that someone was lying down, Mduduzi had already shot him and then I just shot and then we left.

MS LOONAT: So you shot Mrs Ferrero on Mduduzi's instructions, is that what you're saying?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Why didn't you ask Mduduzi to shoot him himself?

Sorry, to shoot Mrs Ferrero himself?

MR JILI: I was afraid to ask him and it was my first time to see someone lying down dead and Mduduzi had the gun in his hand, I was scared that if I were to tell him so he may have done something to me as well.

MS LOONAT: So in actual fact you panicked, is that what you're saying?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: What items were removed from the farmhouse on that day?

MR JILI: A belt and ammunition and pump gun and a bag.

MS LOONAT: Who removed all these items?

MR JILI: Nomanzuma.

MS LOONAT: Did you remove anything yourself?

MR JILI: No I didn't.

MS LOONAT: So the purpose of your entering the farm that day was to steal the owner's firearms, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Was there any - did you plan to murder any of the occupants before you had entered the farm?

MR JILI: No we didn't plan to kill anyone, I only heard a gunfire whilst I was there.

MS LOONAT: In the judgment we find that your fingerprints were found on the telephone. Could you explain how that came about?

MR JILI: You mean in the court judgment?

MS LOONAT: Sorry, I didn't understand that?

MR JILI: Do you mean in the court judgment?

MS LOONAT: That's right, the proceedings at the Supreme Court.

MR JILI: Yes I did put my hand on the telephone and then Mtanda Tshabalala broke the telephone. He deliberately broke the telephone.

MS LOONAT: Were you ever employed by Mr Ferrero on his farm prior to this incident?

MR JILI: Yes, during school holidays, winter holidays and summer holidays I will go there and work temporarily.

MS LOONAT: Was it then that you noticed this movement of Mr Ferrero handing over firearms to the IFP etc?

MR JILI: No at that time I was still young and I was still attending school.

MS LOONAT: So you in fact just took instructions from your senior and believed this was what was going on?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Mr Jili, the victims' families are here this morning, is there anything you would like to disclose to them that you haven't already done?

MR JILI: There is something that I can tell the victims' family. It is very sad, what I did was not actually my aim. The people who were with me at the time and who gave me instructions were older than me and at the time I was still immature and I couldn't stand up to them and I feel a great remorse that a life has been lost because of me and I would like to apologise greatly to the Ferrero family about what happened to them. It was not my aim.

MS LOONAT: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Loonat. Ms Reddy have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY: Yes Mr Chairperson, I wish to cross-examine Mr Jili.

Mr Jili, when did you become a member of ANC?

MR JILI: In 1991.

MS REDDY: You say that the victims were AWB people, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes I'm saying so because police told me so.

MS REDDY: Which police were that?

MR JILI: Police from Port Shepstone who arrested me.

MS REDDY: So you only learned that the victims were AWB members after your arrest. In other words what I'm actually asking you is after you committed the offence that's in question here today then you were informed by the SAP police?

MR JILI: Yes before the incident I thought that they were IFP or they were IFP sympathisers or supporters.

MS REDDY: Mr Jili, AWB members are predominantly, are only White members and I put it to you that the victims were unmistakably coloureds so in so circumstances can those victims belong to the AWB. Can I have a response to that?

MR JILI: I know them as coloureds, I never knew them as AWB until the police told me. What I knew before the incident is that they were supporting IFP.

MS REDDY: How did you actually come to know that they were IFP supporters?

MR JILI: Mduduzi told us, Bongani Zuma also told us that they were helping IFP and whenever the IFP attackers were coming to attack us they used to pass through that farm and he was the one who was supplying firearms to the IFP attackers.

MS REDDY: So are you telling us that you went solely on what Mduduzi told you? Can I have a response please?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: So in other words you actually didn't have any solid proof to the extent that these people in question, in other words the victims, were really IFP supporters? Please answer yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy, just a minute. Ms Reddy when you put the question in English then the interpreters in the box there translate it into whatever language the applicant is speaking, I'm not even sure, I think he probably speaks Zulu and there's a lapse of time between them translating to the witness, him listening to that, responding in Zulu, it goes back to the interpreters, the interpreter then interprets the question to you so you must just allow for that process to happen, alright? So it takes a bit longer then than usual to get a response in these circumstances.

MS REDDY: My apologies, Chairperson.

MR JILI: Would you please repeat your question?

MS REDDY: You don't have any solid proof that the victims were actually IFP members?

MR JILI: I personally, I don't have solid proof that they were IFP members.

MS REDDY: So you acted solely on what Mduduzi told you?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: You killed two innocent people on just what Mduduzi told you?

MR JILI: I only killed one person.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you actually find out whether what Mduduzi told you was the actual truth and reality before going to the place in question and actually shooting one person?

MR JILI: It wasn't going to be easy because sometimes if you heard something in a caucus meeting and then you take responsibility on your own and you go and check if that information is true and false then you want to know if you were checking that and they will think we're leaking the information and then sjambok you.

MS REDDY: You make mention of a Mr George in your affidavit, can you tell me who Mr George is?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, could my learned colleague just show us where in the affidavit so that my client could refer to it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps you could refer to the page in the bundle, have you got the bundle? I assume you've got this application bundle, Ms Reddy?

MS LOONAT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, the pages are numbered, are paginated so you can just refer to the page?

MS REDDY: Page 4, paragraph 5, line 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 4? Sorry, is it the paginated page because we've got in our bundle, the pages are paginated with a koki pen, black koki pen. I don't know what your one looks like?

MS REDDY: Alright, just go to the affidavit of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does it appear?

MS REDDY: It's on the first page of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does it appear, page 9? So you don't have a paginated bundle there?

MS REDDY: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, well let's try and find the affidavit. I'm told it could be on page 9. Is it a document, is it a fax document with some faxed information on the top there 3/11/99 16/16 etc?

MS REDDY: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that?

MS REDDY: It's the affidavit of Jili, the first page of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright has it got an amnesty reference number and then the heading affidavit and then it starts "I the undersigned"

MS REDDY: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: "Mbekesini Jili said under oath, I'm a South African male", is it that document?

MS REDDY: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, what paragraph?

MS REDDY: It will be paragraph 5 line 2, "George Ferrero."

CHAIRPERSON: George Ferrero?

MS REDDY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we've got that. Yes, Ms Loonat I assume you've got that?

MS REDDY: Yes thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, let's proceed.

MS REDDY: Could you please tell me who you are referring to as George Ferrero?

MR JILI: The owner of the farm who we attacked.

MS REDDY: The farmer that you attacked was a Mr Edward Ferrero.

MR JILI: I know him as George Ferrero. Mduduzi and them told me so.

MS REDDY: Right, evidence would be led here by the daughter of Mr Edward Ferrero, that George actually was the grandfather on the maternal side so that is why I'm now in confusion with the said name. You say Mduduzi or Mdudu actually gave you a firearm, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes that is correct.

MS REDDY: And you also say that your political objective was to actually go to the farm in question and get firearms to protect yourselves. So I'm having problems reconciling the two because you had firearms, you had spears, that was enough to actually enough to counteract any attacks from the IFP. So why did you actually need to go and get more firearms for the said objective?

MR JILI: We went there because we needed more firearms. The only firearms we had they were home made firearms of which there were just three.

MS REDDY: Can I just take you back to the incident where you said some other persons from the ANC members actually went to the farm, you actually say in 1993 they went to the farm and took five firearms. Were not those five firearms sufficient?

MR JILI: Only five people went there, I didn't say they'd taken five firearms, I said five of them went there.

MS REDDY: In your affidavit five is stated?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, can I just ask my learned colleague to point to us where in the affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, paragraph 6, the middle line, towards the end of that middle line.

MS LOONAT: Thank you.

MS REDDY: It's in the affidavit of the applicant.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, may I address? Our understanding, it appears that that was hearsay because he says he was not part of the delegation so it's ...(indistinct) to ask him to confirm what is actually told by somebody else?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Jili, this affidavit of yours was taken I assume by the TRC.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, by the TRC investigator.

CHAIRPERSON: The TRC investigator took an affidavit, a statement from you which was signed on the 2nd of this month. Now in paragraph 6 of that affidavit which is what Ms Reddy is referring to, it is said that there were some members of your group that had gone to the farm of Ferrero one day in 1993 and they broke into that house and they stole five firearms and then it says that you were not part of that delegation that went to steal the firearms. Ms Reddy is asking you about these five firearms. Now is this right, is this what happened, were there people who went there and they broke in and they stole five firearms from the farmhouse? Was it something that you heard or what, where does this come from?

MR JILI: I heard about them going there and one of them, I saw him and he had the firearm with him, one of the five boys.

CHAIRPERSON: So that person, how many firearms did that person have with him, the one that you saw of the five that went to break into the house on the farm?

MR JILI: He only had one and then he promised that he was going to bring the rest in the camps where we were hiding.

CHAIRPERSON: So did he say that they took five firearms from the farm?

MR JILI: He counted that it was him and the others, he told me he was with Mdonda's son and Mthembu's son and Dlamini's son and he said they went in that farm and they stole the guns or the firearms and the said they were going to bring the rest in the camps.

CHAIRPERSON: So that firearm that he had with him did he say he got that on the farm?

MR JILI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of firearm was it, was it a handgun or was it a big gun or what was it?

MR JILI: A shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: A shotgun?

MR JILI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you see any of the firearms that this chap was talking about, this person that went to break in there whom he said that they took there, had you seen any of the other firearms apart from this shotgun?

MR JILI: I say another one in Reggie Mkhize's possession.

CHAIRPERSON: So let me ask you, how many of those firearms did you see, you saw the one with this first person that spoke to you then you saw another one, how many in total of those firearms did you see eventually?

MR JILI: The only guns that I've seen with my eyes were these two and then the rest I was told and I was told that they were going to bring them in the camps.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and the second one that you saw, what kind of firearm was that?

MR JILI: It was also a shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Also a shotgun. Yes Ms Reddy?

MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MS REDDY: Mr Jili, I'll refer you back to your affidavit, paragraph 7 and I quote:

So your actual reason for going to that farm on the day in question was to get firearms, am I correct?

MR JILI: When we arrived there Mduduzi Jama was in front. He started shooting and I only saw a person lying down there.

MS REDDY: But Mduduzi also told you to kill Mrs Ferrero and you abided. Can you respond to that please?

MR JILI: Mduduzi was standing right near Mrs Ferrero and then he said to me I must shoot at here and someone was already lying down, I think he was dead and then he said I must shoot and then I shot at her.

MR JILI: Did you question him why he wanted you to kill her even though you had the firearm in your possession?

MR JILI: I was panicking and scared because when I looked at Mduduzi's face he had already changed, he was scaring me and I though if I were to question him he was going to turn and shoot at me.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Reddy, just to get this more clear, is it the only reason that you shot this person, is it simply because you were scared of Mduduzi otherwise you would not have shot the person he was instructing you to shoot?

MR JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Ms Reddy.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you testify in court and come clean that you were responsible for one shooting?

MR JILI: I did mention in court that Mduduzi gave me a gun and instructed me to shoot Mrs Ferrero because the other one Mduduzi had already shot at.

MS REDDY: No Mr Jili, you did not testify in court, you actually kept silent right through the proceedings?

MR JILI: In court I pleaded not guilty.

MS REDDY: Why did you plead not guilty?

MR JILI: The reason was we were not supposed to sell other comrades. We knew from long time that if you were arrested as a comrade you must die alone, you mustn't reveal other comrades.

MS REDDY: So you lied on behalf of your comrades when you were under oath?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, I refer you to the application of Mr Jili. Paragraph 10 (b).

CHAIRPERSON: That's page 2 of the bundle.

Can I ask you if you are God?

MR JILI: No I am not God, the one reason I did this was because Mduduzi instructed me to do so and I don't think on my own I could have done something like this.

MS REDDY: So all the time you are hiding behind the instructions of Mduduzi?

MR JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you bring him here today to testify on your behalf?

MR JILI: I did write letters to all of them and I told them to come forward so that we tell the whole country the truth and I decided to apply for amnesty. I thought since they were outside free maybe they did apply for this because people were told to apply for amnesty.

MS REDDY: Where is your ANC membership card?

MR JILI: At home.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you make any endeavours to bring that card here today so that you could offer us solid proof as to your membership?

MR JILI: I wanted to do so but I'm not from home, I'm from the Eastern Cape and I couldn't contact people from home when I was in Westville. I wanted to tell them to bring it here but then I failed contacting them.

MS REDDY: Where are you from?

MR JILI: Eastern Cape, Umtata.

MS REDDY: Didn't you tell this sitting that you're from the region near Richmond?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Are you in prison in Umtata? You're serving your sentence in Umtata prison?

MR JILI: Yes I'm in prison in Umtata, I'm being transferred from Umtata prison to Westville Prison for this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes to come here, alright. Ms Reddy?

MS REDDY: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Reddy.

Mr Mapoma any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

Mr Jili, prior to you joining the ANC in 1991 did you belong to any political organisation?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Which organisation was it?

MR JILI: At the time before 1990 it was UDF.

MR MAPOMA: During that time was there any conflict between the UDF and IFP in your area?

MR JILI: No, there wasn't.

MR MAPOMA: So is it your evidence this conflict arose only in 1992?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: In your application in page 2 of the paginated bundle, in your application there in paragraph 9(c) you are required to state the name of the victim. You say:

and you go on to say that the White man was a farmer. Who is this White man you are referring to in that application?

MR JILI: I think it was a mistake what is written there that it's a White man because it's not a White man.

MR MAPOMA: So there was no White man as such, is that correct?

MR JILI: There was no White man but there was a Coloured.

MR MAPOMA: Who completed this application form?

MR JILI: It is another inmate from Johannesburg.

MR MAPOMA: And he was interpreting to you the questions and you would tell him the answers and he would write, is it so?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: How was he doing it, would he read one question and you would tell him the answer and he writes down and continues to another question, like that?

MR JILI: Yes he was doing like that.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying that firstly he asked you tell who the victims were and then you referred, you said there was a White man there and then he wrote down and then he continued again to ask another question and then you spoke of a White man again and he wrote down, is that what you're saying?

MR JILI: When I was telling him I only referred to them with their surnames.

MR MAPOMA: You know Mr Jili, even before this paragraph, on paragraph 9(a)(iv) on page 2 of the paginated bundle you say there:

You know, my question is to you now, are you saying this mistake was repeated on a number of questions referring to a White farmer now and again? How do you explain this please?

MR JILI: I was the one who was telling him and he was writing down. Maybe I didn't referred to him as a Coloured but I refer to him by his surname.

CHAIRPERSON: This person from Johannesburg who assisted you is prison advisor then inferred from the surname that this person was a White person, is that what you're saying?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. So before you went there you say Bongani Zuma organised the attack on that farm, do you recall that?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Who was Bongani Zuma?

MR JILI: You mean his other name?

MR MAPOMA: Not really, what I want to find out did he occupy any position in the organisation?

MR JILI: He was a marshall.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mapoma.

Who was the leader of your group when you went to attack the farm, did you have a leader amongst yourselves?

MR JILI: Bongani Zuma and Mduduzi.

ADV SANDI: Was Bongani a leader or a commander to all of you including Mduduzi? How would you rank the two?

MR JILI: I will say Mduduzi was the leader and then Bongani after Mduduzi.

ADV SANDI: Why do you say that?

MR JILI: The person who usually instructed us was Bongani but then Mduduzi would be leading us after we received instructions from Bongani so we will take instructions from Mduduzi and Mduduzi will take instructions from Bongani.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Sorry Mr Mapoma for interrupting.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

I suppose there was branch of the ANC in your area, am I correct?

MR JILI: No there wasn't at that time in our area.

MR MAPOMA: When was it launched if at all it was ever?

MR JILI: It was Siphiso Kabinde.

MR MAPOMA: Siphiso Kabinde stayed at Komagoda, is it not so? And that is not where you stayed. Was that the place where you were, where you resided?

MR JILI: I don't quite understand what it means to say a branch because I thought maybe if you're asking for a branch you're asking for someone you go and report to or you ask permission for whatever, if you had a problem you will go to that person so I know that Mduduzi and Bongani used to go to Siphiso Kabinde and report to him about incidents and decisions.

MR MAPOMA: And this Kabinde was residing in another area, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Was there no leader in your area of the ANC, leader of the ANC?

MR JILI: He was the prominent leader in our area, there was no prominent leader like Siphiso Kabinde.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever become a member of the ANC?

MR JILI: Yes I am.

MR MAPOMA: When did you join the ANC?

MR JILI: In 1991.

MR MAPOMA: How did you join the ANC in 1991?

MR JILI: In our area we agreed that we as ANC we decided to take membership cards as members of the ANC in our area.

MR MAPOMA: I see.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mapoma are you moving onto something else?

Where is your membership card now?

MR JILI: At home.

ADV SANDI: Where was it issued to you, who from the ANC issued that membership card to you?

MR JILI: Siphiso Kabinde.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying Siphiso Kabinde is the person who gave you the ANC card?

MR JILI: No. When we were renewing our membership cards we took I.D. documents and we gave them and then they took all those I.D.'s to Siphiso's office and then he brought back membership cards and they were distributed to us.

MR MAPOMA: Now when in your area it was agreed that you are going with the ANC were there no people who were elected to be the leaders of the ANC in that area of yours to your knowledge?

MR JILI: It was Bongani Zuma, Mduduzi Jama and Kotene and Sibonele.

MR MAPOMA: I see. Okay, now let us come to the place now. Before you went you planned the attack didn't you? You did plan the operation?

MR JILI: It was the thirty of us in our camps when we were sleeping overnight. Early in the morning before we could go back to our homes Mduduzi came and appointed that some of us were going to remain and then the rest will go back home and sleep or rest and then we were to go to the farm and take the guns.

MR MAPOMA: But you didn't go there to kill people but to get firearms, that's all? Isn't that so?

MR JILI: Yes that is so.

MR MAPOMA: And to get firearms, nothing else? Is that not so?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And when you were inside the house Mr Ferrero gave you the firearm, he surrendered the firearm to you?

MR JILI: Yes. Yes he pointed the gun to Mduduzi and Mduduzi took that gun.

MR MAPOMA: Yes did you ask for other firearms?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And what did you say?

MR JILI: He only pointed to that one gun and then even when Mduduzi started searching the house for firearms he couldn't get any and then he took that only one and went outside.

ADV SANDI: And that was before you say Mduduzi started searching the house and he did not find any firearms?

MR JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: And that was before Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero were killed?

MR JILI: I had already heard a fun fire outside and I think one person had already been killed outside.

ADV SANDI: Yes but that was before Mrs Ferrero was killed when Mduduzi searched the house and he could not find any firearms?

MR JILI: Yes it was before.

MR MAPOMA: And you say after Mr Ferrero showed you the firearm Mduduzi took the firearm and you went out, is that correct?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And on your way out having got the firearm you now showed Mrs Ferrero?

MR JILI: As we were leaving and I was getting nearer to Mduduzi, Mduduzi gave his gun to me and he said to me I must shoot her.

MR MAPOMA: You will agree with me at this stage, Mr Jili, that Mrs Ferrero was killed and when she was killed that had nothing to do now with your receiving or returning firearms? Correct me if I'm wrong?

MR JILI: Yes the truth is I couldn't see the reason why she was supposed to be killed because at that time when she was killed or when Mduduzi instructed me to kill her we had already received the gun and ammunition. I don't know why Mr Mduduzi said she must be killed.

ADV SANDI: In other words you're saying it was not necessary at all for Mrs Ferrero to be killed at that stage?

MR JILI: Yes it wasn't necessary at all.

ADV SANDI: But was she not killed because she happened to know Mduduzi?

MR JILI: Yes. Later when we asked Mr Mduduzi why he instructed me to do so Mduduzi did say that sometimes he goes there to buy cattle and Mrs Ferrero may or might recognise him later.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you wear anything over your faces at all?

MR JILI: No we had nothing.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't Mrs Ferrero know you? You'd worked there as a casual labourer?

MR JILI: Yes maybe but she was old, I didn't have a problem with that.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ferrero, did he know you?

MR JILI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So when you went there did you expect them to know you?

MR JILI: It wasn't easy for them to recognise me because it had been a long time since we'd worked there.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you last work there?

MR JILI: It has been a long time.

ADV BOSMAN: But just an indication, how old were you when you last worked there?

MR JILI: In 1991.

ADV BOSMAN: So why didn't you cover your face for in case they recognised you?

INTERPRETER: I don't think he understood the question.

MR JILI: I was 17 or 18 years when I last worked there.

ADV BOSMAN: And how old were you when they were killed?

MR JILI: 19 years.

ADV BOSMAN: So that is not such a long time, so why did you not take precautions and cover your face so that they would not recognise you and give your name to the police?

MR JILI: I think it is because we took it for granted that they were elderly and it wouldn't be easy for them to recognise us.

ADV BOSMAN: Did they recognise you?

MR JILI: Yes they did.

ADV BOSMAN: Isn't that why you killed them?

MR JILI: No, that's not the reason because as we arrived Mduduzi was already in front and just started firing. I don't know what happened but then he started firing and the person was lying down.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry for that long interruption Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks ma'am.

Why was Mr Mbaba Mtola killed?

MR JILI: I don't know what happened. Mduduzi was in front and I was just following from the back, I don't know what happened there.

MR MAPOMA: Was he killed whilst you were still approaching the house?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: So when you heard a gun fire outside when you were still inside the house Mr Mbaba was already shot, is it not so?

MR JILI: Mtola was killed just as we were approaching, in fact as soon as we entered the yard. He was killed first. I wasn't there, I was in another place so I didn't see him being killed.

MR MAPOMA: Now on your way when you left the place you had two radios, is that correct?

MR JILI: No, we didn't have radios.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were leaving did you take any radios from the house?

MR JILI: Yes Bongani took radios.

MR MAPOMA: There were two weren't there?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And a bag?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And a suitcase?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Inside the bag was there any money?

MR JILI: No there was no money.

MR MAPOMA: Why were these suitcase and bags and radios taken away?

MR JILI: I don't know where he was taking them because he was also asked why was he carrying those things and then he left them there as he was asked.

MR MAPOMA: No, what are you saying now, can you explain what you are saying?

MR JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Explain what are you saying.

MR JILI: As we were leaving Bongani was asked why he was carrying those bags and then he dropped them then and there and then he started walking with us, he left those bags there.

MR MAPOMA: Where did he drop them?

MR JILI: It wasn't quite a distance it was nearer to the farm.

ADV BOSMAN: Who asked him why he was carrying it?

MR JILI: Mtando Tshabalala.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he with you?

MR JILI: Yes he was.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying now Mduduzi was carrying two radios, a purse and a suitcase alone when you were leaving, is that what you're saying?

MR JILI: Yes Mduduzi was carrying a gun, Bongani was carrying a gun and a bag, that's all.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, my question is are you saying Mduduzi was carrying two radios, one suitcase, one purse all by himself when you were leaving?

MR JILI: Yes he had put the other items inside the suitcase.

MR MAPOMA: Oh, this is the Mduduzi that threw the telephone, is that correct?

MR JILI: It was Mtando who threw the telephone and broke it.

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry. Now where is Mduduzi?

MR JILI: I don't know where he is now.

MR MAPOMA: Is he still alive do you know?

MR JILI: Yes he is still alive.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: After you had left the farm did you get to know from your colleagues why Mr Mtola was shot?

MR JILI: Yes we did ask. It wasn't just myself, me and the rest who were behind we asked what transpired and we were told that he was fighting and Mduduzi just decided to shoot at him because also he was an IFP, that's what Mduduzi said.

ADV SANDI: Do you know of anyone who stayed on the farm with Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero?

MR JILI: No at that time I didn't know.

ADV SANDI: Yes but did you know if anyone was staying in the house on the farm with Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero?

MR JILI: I didn't know that there were other people who were staying with them inside the house.

ADV SANDI: Did you know if Mr Mtola knew you?

MR JILI: No he didn't know me.

ADV SANDI: Did you know him?

MR JILI: Yes I did know him.

ADV SANDI: What did you know about him?

MR JILI: My mother's brother.

ADV SANDI: He's your mother's brother?

MR JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Are you aware of any members of the so-called Coloured community who were members or supporters of the IFP?

MR JILI: No I don't know of any.

ADV SANDI: Did you know of any Coloured person elsewhere who was a member or supporter of the IFP?

MR JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Tell us about that.

MR JILI: There is a certain guy who is a Coloured and he is an IFP supporter. He usually went to a certain area where it was IFP dominant and he will take with them about the ANC and some boys will would come and tell us what he was saying and there are other families as well in my neighbourhood even though it's not so close but I also know that they are supporters of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS LOONAT: No Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jili, you are excused, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anything else?

MS LOONAT: Would you like me to address otherwise there is nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicant? Yes Ms Reddy, what is your position?

MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, I just wish to call Mrs Julia Ferrero to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Julia Ferrero?

MS REDDY: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will she come forward? Is it an eye witness?

MS REDDY: No Mr Chairperson, she's the daughter of the late Mrs Patila Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it background information, it's not to do with the incident?

MS REDDY: Not predominantly Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Just switch on her microphone there.

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO : My name is Julia Arensi nee Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Arensi?

MS FERRERO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other name?

MS FERRERO: Nee Ferrero, I was a Miss Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh is Arensi your married surname?

MS FERRERO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we've got that.

JULIA FERRERO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Reddy.

EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can you tell us what's your relationship to the two said victims?

MS FERRERO: Mrs Patila Ferrero was my mom and Mr Mtola was -I can't say, he was a person living with my mom and my dad.

MS REDDY: Can you describe Mrs Patila Ferrero to us?

MS FERRERO: My mom was a very homely person, she wasn't one who moved around a lot, she kept close to the quarters of the home and the immediate home grounds. She never walked further than the nearest vicinity of the yard. She seldom went out and she seldom kept much contact with any people. She used to be mostly in the home and whoever saw my mom had to come to the home to see her because she wasn't one who was moving around any more.

MS REDDY: What was the relationship with the neighbouring people?

MS FERRERO: She was friendly with them, they'd bring people and she knew them, she kept acquaintances with them, she wasn't over friendly with them but she knew the people and they knew her because the farmhouse was isolated and a lot of people needed help from her in many kinds of problems they had, maybe others with their pension, others with maybe injuries and such sort of things then she would render assistance whoever asked for her assistance.

MS REDDY: Can you tell us a little about Mr Mtola, the other victim?

MS FERRERO: Mr Mtola was a person that came to the home in 1976. He originally came wanting employment. That time my dad was still productive, he was still doing quite a lot of work on the farm and Mr Mtola wanted employment but it was found that Mr Mtola had a very low I.Q. His I.Q. was rather low and he wasn't physically capable and neither was he mentally capable to really do heavy work or any kind of work so my parents took him on from then and would try to retrain him especially mentally so he could become better, more able to do certain things at least, you know, to be able to assist himself and then from that time he didn't want to be separated from the family, he wanted to live with the old people, my mom and my dad and the three of them grew old gracefully together there and you couldn't separate the three of these people because they were very fond of each other and they had grown to live together for many years together.

MS REDDY: Can you tell us about the physical capacity of your father, the late Mr Edward Ferrero?

MS FERRERO: My dad had already gone old, he was on the verge of senility, he was starting to grow old and he didn't have much energy any more and he also kept very much to the home and didn't move around much and wasn't very physically fit any more, you could see that he was going downhill physically and mentally he wasn't very mentally capable any more because it seemed that it was Parkinson's setting in and there was a bit of senile dementia, so something starting to set in because he was becoming forgetful and he wasn't very capable of much any more. Just keeping near the home and keeping the home fires burning.

MS REDDY: What type of relationship did he share with the neighbouring people?

MS FERRERO: He was friendly, no over friendly to anyone in particular. He gave assistance where he could give assistance. He was there if anybody needed him, he was there but he was just a homely person I could say too.

MS REDDY: Did your father keep any guns in the homestead?

MS FERRERO: Yes he did have guns in the homestead, his guns were guns that have been in the family for generations and generations already. He had inherited these guns from his parents who had inherited them from their parents and so on and it was guns that were being passed on in the family. They were mainly heirlooms and antiques.

MS REDDY: Were these guns capable of being utilised?

MS FERRERO: Not unless they were serviced or maybe altered in any way but in their present form they weren't capable much of doing anything.

MS REDDY: Did your parents have any political affiliations?

MS FERRERO: None whatsoever, they weren't politically minded and they weren't politically affiliated to anything and furthermore they never got much news because in the valley you couldn't even keep a T.V. because there was no - the current or what could you call it but the waves couldn't reach the valley therefore T.V. never showed in the valley. They only had their radios for the little bit of news that they did acquire.

MS REDDY: What did your family actually keep on the farm?

MS FERRERO: They had cattle, they had goats, they had sheep, they had chickens, geese, ducks and they had some pigs and that was about most of the things that they kept on the farm.

MS REDDY: Were there many offences of robbery and such like offences committed in that area round about 1992?

MS FERRERO: There weren't much offences committed and it was very quiet in the area, there wasn't many people walking around excepting those that really needed help of some sort or the other but there wasn't much activity I can say on the farm.

MS REDDY: Were there any theft of livestock, machinery or otherwise on the farm?

MS FERRERO: Livestock there had been reports of theft of livestock but that used to occur far from the homestead. You know if the cattle strayed into the other areas then maybe sometimes you heard but it wasn't prominent feature as such but there were thefts.

MS REDDY: How would you describe your family's financial status?

MS FERRERO: I would say the family's financial status was alright because my parents never actually got any assistance like in the form of pension or anything, they were self sufficient.

MS REDDY: How far is the Richmond area from your father's farm?

MS FERRERO: Okay, the nearest is across the river but that's Richmond but the other areas, the real populated areas are far from near the farm, they are a good 30 kilometres to 40 kilometres away.

MS REDDY: Let's just go back to the incident where the first lot of firearms were stolen from your father's homestead. Do you have direct knowledge on that?

MS FERRERO: Yes I do.

MS REDDY: Can you please tell this Committee?

MS FERRERO: On that day my dad, a cousin of mine had arrived, was arriving from Australia after a long time to visit and my dad came into town and picked me up and we were going home because I had been working that day so we went home a little bit late, about 7 o'clock in the evening which was late for us because we never moved around so late and when we got into the home the windows were open in my dad's room and those windows were never opened really because they had been jammed for some years before because the homestead was old and we found the windows open and when my dad checked he found that all the guns, the guns that he had kept in his room were missing and the window was open.

MS REDDY: Do you know how many guns went missing?

MS FERRERO: There were four of them.

MS REDDY: How many were left thereafter?

MS FERRERO: There was only one left because it wasn't in the vicinity with these others it was in a different room.

MS REDDY: How many people lived on that particular homestead including employees?

MS FERRERO: Well it was only my mom and dad that lived in the house and Mtola had his own quarters below the house and then there were leases that had just started and they had employed a couple, a husband and wife that was living in the other house, little room that was below the house. Those were the only people that were living on the homestead.

MS REDDY: Did you have any security guards on the farm?

MS FERRERO: No security guards were on the farm.

MS REDDY: Do you wish to tell this Committee anything further?

MS FERRERO: Yes I would like to say something to the Committee, that today is a very painful day for us and that we are very heartsore as a family to come and sit here and to hear what we've heard today because we as a family have made our peace. We had accepted that what had taken place was a sheer robbery and a murder that had taken place and we had learnt to accept that and to let it pass by and we were shocked that today we've been called to hear other things that we've heard at this hearing today.

MS REDDY: Is that all Mrs Ferrero?

MS FERRERO: Yes, that's all I'd like to say.

MS REDDY: That's all Mr Chairperson from Mrs Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Ms Loonat, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT: Yes Mr Chairperson.

Madam, you understand that my client has expressed his deep remorse at the loss of your family members and your employee but you do understand that he has explained that there was no mens rea to commit either of these murders and in fact he wasn't party to one, the one that he was party to you understand was an instruction and from somebody who was senior. This was a political activity. My instructions are that he had to accept instructions from a comrade and this is how they functioned, you couldn't question, you just obeyed orders and it all happened very quickly.

Further you understand my client was trained in political warfare, there was a lot of political activity, he honestly was led to believe that there was an involvement by your family members with the IFP. You do appreciate that if they came to rob they did not steal any of the cattle, livestock which they had been losing when the IFP were fighting them. When they attacked your father's farm it was purely to obtain firearms which they understood were being supplied to the opposing party.

My instructions are that they just took what they really needed for their cause and you have confirmed that four guns were missing which only one was left behind. Today he has made full disclosure to you hoping to come clean and explain to you from their side what had transpired and not to cause you more pain. I have nothing else to say, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I don't know if you wish to respond to that, if you do wish then you can respond if you want to.

Yes, is there anything that you want to say in response to that even though it's not necessary?

MS FERRERO: Yes I like to say there was a lot of cattle that went missing and goats after that incident that went missing. In fact all the goats went missing and the cattle we recovered very few cattle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

Ma'am, how old was your father and your mother at the time of the incident?

MS FERRERO: My mom was 71 and my dad was 75.

MR MAPOMA: I suppose you were not residing where they were residing at the time of their death?

MS FERRERO: No, I was in the village as close as possible to them because that was the nearest place there I could find employment because I had been in Johannesburg prior to this and because of my parents failing strength and they had nobody in the family that was nearby that could assist them, I had planned to come back and be as close as possible and try to get them out of the farm and into the village at least because they were used to their surroundings and they were quite resistant to change. That's why I came into the village.

MR MAPOMA: I didn't hear you, who was quite resistant to change?

MS FERRERO: The old people were resistant to change. You know, old people are not very easily removable, they're not people that can be removed easily from where they reside. As they grow older they become resistant to change.

MR MAPOMA: I see. Now when, I suppose from what you have just said the guns which were stolen before the incident, they were stolen through burglary, am I correct?

MS FERRERO: I would assume that it was burglary and we did believe that it was burglary.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, now other than those guns was there anything that was stolen on that day that the guns were stolen?

MS FERRERO: No, not that I know of, just the guns were taken.

ADV SANDI: If I can just ask, when was the burglary, how soon was it before the actual attack?

MS FERRERO: The burglary was in December 1992.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Just one. Mr Mtola, are you able to estimate his age, what was he more or less?

MS FERRERO: Yes, Mr Mtola was about 60, he had just reached 60 and because I remember my dad was trying to negotiate an old age pension scheme for him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy, any re-examination?

MS REDDY: No Mr Chairperson, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, are you calling any other witnesses?

MS REDDY: No Mr Chairperson, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mrs Arensi, you are excused, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat, have you got any submissions?

MS LOONAT IN ARGUMENT: Just my final address Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, my learned colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, one has to admit that there was a common purpose attack on that particular day to commit the crime which was motivated by the volatile political situation existing at the time. On page 19 of the bundle the learned judge states, line 6, that:

My client has in full disclosure has admitted to what he took and why and what he knew what the others could have taken, the co-perpetrators could have helped themselves to. Essentially my client has confirmed that firearms and ammunition was what was removed and the victims' daughter has confirmed that and no more.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Loonat, as I understood the witness she confirmed that on the first occasion, no more than the firearms were taken, not on at the time of the incident.

MS LOONAT: I beg your pardon, I understood that at the day of the incident it was just the firearms and thereafter a lot of livestock and things were taken. I'm mistaken am I?

ADV BOSMAN: No, she did say that the livestock was taken thereafter but she did not say that nothing more than a gun was taken on the day of the incident.

MS LOONAT: Thank you. My instructions are that firearms for the cause, to counteract the incessant IFP attacks on my client's area and people was the sole purpose of the attack on that day. Mrs Ferrero was killed on instructions by the leader on that day, Mr Mduduzi. The murder was not a part of their plan from the outset, but in such situations panic and the ingraining of having to follow orders from comrades and people superior to you in the cause was what my client did when he killed Mrs Ferrero. He had the choice, it was either to kill her or be killed. What was his option? He obtained firearms and pump guns and the purpose of the attack as I said was purely political but certainly innocent people getting injured, maimed, killed as it happened on that day.

His remorse has been expressed. The mens rea for murder has not been ascertained but to obtain firearms. He been honest in answering his questions to the best of his ability and he volunteers to implicate his co-perpetrators as best as he can. His intention today is for the truth and full disclosure and hopeful reconciliation and in the light of the above I ask that the Honourable Members of this Committee consider my client's application for amnesty. Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Can I just ask something here? Three old people are killed by a group of armed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Two are killed.

ADV SANDI: Three.

CHAIRPERSON: No, two. Do you understand this position correctly Ms Loonat? The wife of the farmer and the person who was living with them were killed by the attackers. The farmer survived this incident but he died subsequently from some unrelated cause.

MS LOONAT: That is my understanding as well.

CHAIRPERSON: The farmer doesn't seem to have been killed or harmed in this, physically harmed in this incident.

MS LOONAT: That is how I understand it Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, then I'm with you.

ADV SANDI: But we're not dealing here with a situation of victims who could hardly put up any resistance to these armed young men. What was the political objective for the killing of these people?

MS LOONAT: My instructions are it was, my client was led to believe as part of his meetings with his comrades that these people were known to be supplying firearms to the opposing party and the idea was get those firearms. One, to obtain it for their cause and two, to stop them giving it to the IFP who were attacking them and the question of the ages of the people. At the outset my client has been admitting that there was o intention to kill the old people it was merely to get the firearms and get out of there.

ADV SANDI: Yes but he says when he shot Mrs Ferrero he was acting under compulsion. Can he have a political objective? Can he have an objective in his mind if he was just doing this thing because he was scared of Mduduzi? He was afraid of Mduduzi?

MS LOONAT: My submission is that he was in a frame of mind of a political attack on this place and he was to take instructions from his senior. Admittedly the instruction to murder a helpless old lady is because Mduduzi would be recognised by him, is not a political act but it was a common purpose thing and this happened in the course of the events.

ADV SANDI: His evidence does not, as I understand it, does not really show any compelling necessity to kill them whilst they were there. They had been there the previous time, they got four firearms, they come back they get one firearm, they're not satisfied, they search the house, they don't find any firearms, they still kill Mrs Ferrero?

MS LOONAT: My instructions are that he had the choice, he was afraid of Mduduzi, he was his senior and at that time he didn't think further than which was his instructions, kill or he knew would be killed by Mduduzi himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy, have you got any submissions?

MS REDDY: Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, Committee Members, audience, all I wish to submit at this stage is that can we really believe what the applicant has said us today?

In his bail application previously he said that he was nowhere in the vicinity of the farm. Can we really trust what he says today? In his trial in the Supreme Court he actually said that he was not guilty, he put in a plea of not guilty. Can we really trust what he is saying?

The victims, as evidence was led, were old feeble people. There was no reason for killing those two victims. Evidence was also led that these people were feeble in that they could easily been taken advantage of.

If we ought to go back to the sentence that the Honourable Justice Hugo delivered, it relates in the sentence that there could have only been one motive for these killings and that was of greed. As evidence was led by Mrs Julia Ferrero that the family was relatively wealthy, this lies in support to that evidence.

He couldn't prove to this court that he really was a member of the ANC. He couldn't show this court any documentary proof. He didn't bring any witnesses to testify on his behalf that what he was really telling this court was the truth. Mr Chairperson, that is all I wish to submit at this stage, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I have no submissions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Have you got anything you want to add Ms Loonat?

MS LOONAT: Just two questions Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS LOONAT IN REPLY: My learned colleague raised the issue of my client pleading not guilty at the trial and he does not deny that but his explanation was, as I recall, that he was brainwashed by his comrades when he attended these meetings, he was brainwashed into the fact that you do not tell on your comrades you just keep quiet and take what comes and this is what happened.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just put one question to Ms Loonat, please Chairperson? Ms Loonat, how do we explain that if people went to a farm with the intention of not harming the residents and they know, at least two of them know, that they are possibly going to be recognised because they are known to these people?

How do we explain the fact that they took no precautions not to be recognised?

MS LOONAT: My client I seem to recall said that Mrs Ferrero would not be able to recognise him for some reason but did recognise Mduduzi and that is why he had to kill Mrs Ferrero because she recognised Mduduzi.

ADV BOSMAN: Well the question is should we believe that? Your client worked there about a year prior to the incident. Mduduzi was obviously known, surely in planning the operation they must have said well, these people know us or we know these people and they go there taking this risk of being recognised and they want us to believe that they had no intention of doing anything about it?

MS LOONAT: My submissions are from the instructions that I've been receiving that my client's mind was not so sophisticated at that time, he was actually just being led by his leaders and didn't think further as to having to conceal his identity and things, he just went in there with a political motive of removing firearms and run. Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am, is there anything else you want to add? You were dealing with the fact that your client pleaded not guilty?

MS LOONAT: That's right Mr Chairperson, just one more thing. The position about his documentary proof, he's been trying to say time and time again he doesn't have it, he doesn't deny it, he said how he has come about it, it is lying at home, it's just that he has been incarcerated and he has just not been able to get it. His family are not even here to support him today and on the issue of trying to get witnesses to prove his point, he has stated that he has written to these people in the light of the amnesty applications and asked them to come in line with him and he's got no response because his hands have been tied because he's been in prison and he is just not able to make that communication and it's unfair in his opinion that there were so many of them that were actually involved and only the three of them were finally arrested and he was charged and sentenced. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes that concludes the formal proceedings in this application. We will consider the matter and we will formulate a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit at which stage we will notify all of the parties with an interest in this matter as to what the decision in the matter is. So under those circumstances the decision is reserved.

Well thank you Ms Loonat and Ms Reddy, Mr Mapoma.

MS LOONAT: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't mean to interrupt but you were just saying that the interested parties here at the end of the session. Is the applicant's attorney sufficiently an interested party?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes absolutely, this is his application.

MS LOONAT: We are just not notified at any time as to what has happened. It's been one in all the incidents that I've done and that was after I wrote up to the Truth and Reconciliation to tell us please what has happened to our clients and we're just not getting that response back and we would like to know. Could you please when you do that make sure that we are informed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, would you take that up with Mr Mapoma?

MS LOONAT: I did and I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who represents that side of the Committee here.

MS LOONAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I apologise for interrupting.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will make the decision available once it is ready. We'll now take the short adjournment, we'll reconvene in 15 minutes when we will proceed to deal with the next matter.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now proceed to hear the amnesty application of Jones Juda Mdluli, Amnesty Reference AM4100/96.

The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record. Yes, Mr Ngubane, do you want to put yourself on record for the applicant?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is E M Ngubane, I appear on behalf of the applicant, Mr Mdluli.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. And then the leader of evidence?

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the leader of evidence as before. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Yes Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Sir. May I call the applicant Mr Mdluli?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mr Mdluli, is it correct that you were born in 1960 at a place known as Inanda?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And are you currently serving a sentence in prison as a result of a conviction?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And were you convicted of murder, attempted murder, robbery and you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment, correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And how many years did you receive as a result of that conviction and sentence?

MR MDLULI: 18 years imprisonment.

MR NGUBANE: I see and do you recall when that was?

MR MDLULI: In 1992.

MR NGUBANE: Prior to your conviction and sentence is it correct you were residing in the KwaMashu township?

MR MDLULI: My house is in Inanda in a town Section A.

MR NGUBANE: So you were residing in Inanda, the new town?

MR MDLULI: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Backs to KwaMashu township?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And now were you a member of any political party?

MR MDLULI: I was an ANC supporter.

MR NGUBANE: I see. You were not a paid up member or you were not a member at all of the ANC, you were merely a supporter, is that correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you were also employed as a member of the KwaZulu Police, is that correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What rank did you have?

MR MDLULI: I was a lance sergeant.

MR NGUBANE: And for how long had you been a member of the police force before your conviction?

MR MDLULI: I had been employed for about nine years.

MR NGUBANE: Alright. Now you committed these various offences for which you were convicted. Can you tell the Members of the Committee what motivated you to commit these offences?

MR MDLULI: I was stationed at KwaMashu. There were two conflicting organisations at KwaMashu, that is the ANC dominated in the township and outside KwaMashu there was Lindelani which was dominated by the IFP. Those IFP members collaborated with the KwaZulu Police when they attacked the ANC members in the township particularly in Section K and in Induzu.

MR NGUBANE: May I just interrupt you a little bit? If you speak can you take it step by step because there are people interpreting so that they can catch up with you? Right, carry on from where you ended?

MR MDLULI: This killing of ANC by IFP members and sympathisers and the police affected my family, friends and neighbours. This affected me very deeply and I felt that I had a responsibility to do something to assist. There were defence units that existed in the areas to protect the communities. I knew those units and they were responsible for protecting the community, my friends, my family and the people of the section as well as M Section as well as the rest of the KwaMashu township.

I saw it fit to render assistance and the first thing that I did was to give them ammunition. After a while we acquired firearms which we used to assist them with although these were later confiscated by the police when we were arrested.

MR NGUBANE: When you say you were arrested and neighbours were affected, did you have any specific relatives that were killed by Inkatha?

MR MDLULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Now how were your relatives effected there?

MR MDLULI: They were effected because the section of M would be attacked and that is where I had relatives. My children would also be effected there as well as my neighbours. They knew me and I had rendered some assistance to protect that family that housed my children.

MR NGUBANE: This background you are giving it as a motivation for you committing these crimes you are serving in respect of which you are serving a sentence, is that correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: I take it you planned to commit this robbery at Ntwetwe, is that correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What did you hope to achieve by actually committing this robbery?

MR MDLULI: We wanted to acquire firearms so that we would be able to assist different units who were protecting the township. I have already mentioned that is KwaMashu and Ntuso.

MR NGUBANE: During your planning did you at any stage plan to commit murder or attempted murder?

MR MDLULI: No, that was not planned.

MR NGUBANE: Right, I take it that you proceeded from wherever you were on the day of the robbery to Ntwetwe area, correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you driving any motor vehicles?

MR MDLULI: We were in two vehicles, a BMW and a Toyota Corolla.

MR NGUBANE: Who were driving these motor vehicles?

MR MDLULI: The BMW was driven by Dunsani Dlamini and the Toyota Corolla was driven by myself on the way to and on the return journey it was driven by James Lucky Hlengwa.

MR NGUBANE: And the people you have mentioned are the people that were convicted and sentenced together with you by the high court, they were accused number 3 and number 5 in that case?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Right, were you armed in any manner?

MR MDLULI: Yes we were armed.

MR NGUBANE: You personally, how were you armed?

MR MDLULI: I had my service pistol, a 7.65 as well as a 9 mm pistol which belonged to Constable Kamboli.

MR NGUBANE: Alright and did you know where you - well sorry, can I just rephrase it? Did you discuss ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Ngubane, let's get a clear picture who was armed with what before you go on?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. You have described how you were armed and were the other people also armed? People in your company?

MR MDLULI: I had my own firearm as well as Sangoni's firearm. When we arrived at the scene I handed my firearm to Bheki who was a member of the defence unit.

MR NGUBANE: Bheki who?

MR MDLULI: Bheki Dlamini.

MR NGUBANE: He was not one of the co-accused when you appeared before the high court?

MR MDLULI: Yes he was not one of the accused.

MR NGUBANE: And how were the other members armed, members of your group?

MR MDLULI: James Lucky Hlengwa had his 9 mm and Ukunuleko was also a member of the self defence unit, he had a 9 mm in his possession, that was his firearm.

MR NGUBANE: Was there anyone in your group who had a firearm known as HMC?

MR MDLULI: Of the people who were at the scene, no one carried a big firearm. I do not recall correctly which firearm Dumsani Dlamini had although he was not at the scene of the crime.

MR NGUBANE: But when he did the planning and after the robbery did anyone of you possess a firearm known as the HMC?

MR MDLULI: On our way back we left three firearms at KwaMashu K section, there were two HMC's and one shotgun. Dumsani Dlamini took one HMC to Hammersdale, that would have been used to assist defence units there because there were similar problems prevailing there.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, let's go back to the stage now when you were travelling and before you could do that, before you could commit robbery did you target any particular area where you were going to commit robbery?

MR MDLULI: What happened was that Dumsani Dlamini came to us and informed us that the opportunity to acquire firearms to assist defence units has presented itself. He then told us that there was a certain gentleman by the surname of Luthuli, a Constable Luthuli who was stationed at Ntetwe. This person had come up with a suggestion of robbing a vehicle that would be paying out some monies. Mr Luthuli was a member of Inkatha but at the time he was our friend.

MR NGUBANE: Right?

MR MDLULI: We then agreed that what we are after is the firearms but we were not going to inform Luthuli about that because he was a member of the opposing organisation and he was stationed at Ntwetwe, he worked with the police there.

MR NGUBANE: So Luthuli suggested to you that you should commit robbery and rob people of money, is that what he told you?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did he tell you anything about the firearms?

MR MDLULI: He informed us of the type of firearms that those people carry and exactly how many there are that escort the PL team.

MR NGUBANE: Did he tell you where these firearms are kept?

MR MDLULI: As far as we knew the police would have the firearms in their possession.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, then you went to the spot where this robbery was to take place, correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct, we did go there.

MR NGUBANE: Where was that?

MR MDLULI: It's at Tapuka's Store.

MR NGUBANE: And you arrived there and what did you do?

MR MDLULI: When we arrived there it was myself, Lucky Hlengwa, Bheki and Gunuleko. There were four policemen, one was seated in the vehicle and three were outside the shop. We then instructed them to drop their weapons. The one that was directly in front of me, I had pressed my firearm against him on his back. He tried to turn, carrying an HMC, to fight back. At that precise moment I heard gunfire which I did not know where it came from. I then shot at that policeman and then took cover behind a van that was parked on the scene.

MR NGUBANE: The policeman that you shot whereabouts did you shoot him?

MR MDLULI: On the head.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know who that policeman is?

MR MDLULI: No I do not have knowledge with regards to his identity.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know what happened of him or he was merely injured or he died?

MR MDLULI: He died on the scene.

MR NGUBANE: But surely in the High Court you must have been told that you had committed murder in respect of a certain person whose name was mentioned, is it not correct?

MR MDLULI: I do not remember it being mentioned.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, when you say you shot him on his head did you shoot him on his forehead? Did you shoot him on his forehead or the back of his head or the side of his head?

MR MDLULI: If I remember correctly it was on the side towards the back.

MR NGUBANE: How many times did you shoot him?

MR MDLULI: Once.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, besides that shot that you fired, did you fire any further shots, you personally?

MR MDLULI: Yes, after that I took cover behind a van. There was then a shoot out that took place between us and the police for quite a while. At the end two of them fled and one other died on the scene. In total there were two policemen who died on the scene and two fled.

MR NGUBANE: And were those the two people who were killed at the scene?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What did you remove from the scene?

MR MDLULI: We removed all firearms on the scene and we saw a trunk that was in the van. As far as we knew any truck that is in the possession of the police was used for the storing of firearms and ammunition. We then assumed that there might be firearms or ammunition inside the trunk so we took the trunk as well.

MR NGUBANE: Who actually took the trunk?

MR MDLULI: It was Gululeko.

MR NGUBANE: And then what did you do with all the things that you removed at the scene of the robbery?

MR MDLULI: We took those firearms and the trunk with to K Section and when we opened the trunk there was nothing except for a slab of zinc. We then left three firearms with Gululeko at K Section as well as Bheki. Those two were members of the self defence unit. One firearm was taken by Dumsani Ernest Dlamini to Hammersdale. As I've already mentioned, there was also fighting going on there.

ADV SANDI: You say you left the firearms with who?

MR MDLULI: With Gululeko and Bheki.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. When you decided to commit this robbery were you under command of anyone or any political organisation or local defence unit structure?

MR MDLULI: No one had given us the authority to go fetch those firearms but we were forced by the situation that prevailed, that is we felt we had to render assistance to ANC structures who were unarmed, defenceless and were suffering attacks from armed people such as Inkatha and KwaZulu Police.

MR NGUBANE: So you are asking that you be granted amnesty in respect of all the offences that have been convicted of and in respect of which you are serving sentence is that correct?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: According to the charge sheet you were charged, that is the indictment, I think it's page 12 to 13, towards the end of page 12, you were charged with murder in that you killed one Samwe Sipho Hlongwane and murder again, that you killed one Ngongo Jerome Kuzwayo and attempted murder and robbery of various people. The point I'm making to you is that there are definitely families of these people present here and who may not be present but who are aware of your conviction of your sentence. Do you have any message for them?

MR MDLULI: Yes. When the incident occurred it was during a time of war. During that time, the '87, '88, '89, '90, 1991, everyone knows that there was a war going on in all the townships, that is between the ANC and the IFP. What we did then, that is to fetch those firearms, even though it added up resulting in the death of their loved ones, that was not our intention. We wanted to help families who died day in, day out being killed by people who were armed and trained as well as the IFP which was armed as well. Therefore I will say to those relatives please understand the situation that prevailed at the time. We are now faced with a different situation where we reconciled with regards to past conflict. I will then ask that maybe what took place, before then, before the present government, led us where we are today so I would ask them to please forgive and forget the past and let us look towards the future. Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.

Mr Mdluli, you were a member of the KwaZulu Police?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact in KwaZulu during that time you will agree with me KwaZulu Government was led by the Inkatha Freedom Party, isn't it so?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And the KwaZulu Police themselves had allegiance to the Inkatha Freedom Party, generally?

MR MDLULI: Generally the KwaZulu Police were aligned to the IFP but it was not everyone but yes, most of them did support the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact your friend who was an Inkatha member, what's his name now?

MR MDLULI: Constable Luthuli.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, he was an Inkatha member and worked closely with Inkatha and the police, KwaZulu Police?

MR MDLULI: We knew him to be a member or a supporter of the IFP but we had never seen him committing acts on behalf of Inkatha or for instance killing, murdering people on behalf of Inkatha.

MR MAPOMA: I see. Now you yourself, were you not a supporter of Inkatha?

MR MDLULI: Throughout my service at the police station or even before I've never been a supporter of the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: Before you became a policeman were you supporting any political organisation?

MR MDLULI: Yes I supported the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, so when did you join the police?

MR MDLULI: In 1981 I joined the South African Police then and in 1984 I wanted to work in the department of the finger printing unit. I then made a request to be moved there but because of discrimination then I was not accepted. I then heard of the KwaZulu Police where I met somebody who was in charge of the finger printing department. That person then requested me to go work in his section. I was then made to fill in a pro-forma form which released me into the KwaZulu Police.

MR MAPOMA: And in 1981 the ANC was a banned organisation and in fact it was known by the police force then as an organisation of the terrorists, you are aware of that, aren't you?

MR MDLULI: Yes I'm aware of it.

MR MAPOMA: Yet that was the organisation you were supporting when you went to join the police, that's what you want to tell this Committee now?

MR MDLULI: I will explain that. When I joined the police it was after my schooling at Gugulabasha. That school is in Dusoma, very close to KwaMashu. I and other pupils from that school and neighbouring school we supported the UDF at the time which I think was a branch of the ANC. When I joined the police in 1991 you made to take an oath and you were informed that if you are a police officer you should be apolitical so that you are able to protect the community fairly. That is what was on my mind when I went to college and when I returned from the college that was also on my mind. When I was with the KwaZulu Police in 1984 I arrived there in April. I was told then that when you joined the KwaZulu Police you should become a member of the IFP and also that the police force is under the command of Mangosutho Buthelezi who was the Minister of Police and an IFP Chairperson there. I then attempted to make an application to return to the SAP because that was against my policies. That application was turned down in Ulundi. I went to the police commissioner at C R Swart to explain my problems. He said he would accept me provided Ulundi gives me permission to do so. When I returned to Ulundi they refused, they said I cannot go back to the South African Police. I then decided that I shall continue working then and then I had an idea that my colleagues were members of an organisation that I opposed therefore I felt it was time for me to do whatever I could to support that organisation which I supported and that which was supported by my family and my friends and neighbours. Therefore I continued being an ANC supporter although I was working in an environment which was dominated by the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: So you're saying you started being a KwaZulu Police in 1984?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, it is in 1984 when you were told that if you are KwaZulu Police you're supposed to support Inkatha?

MR MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. Now on this day when you planned this robbery what were you intending to rob actually?

MR MDLULI: We wanted to acquire firearms for the reason I stated previously that is to assist defence units who protected our families, our friends in the township who were under attack from the IFP from Lindelani and Richmond Farm and they would do this with the assistance and collusion of the KwaZulu Police, such police whom I knew. Sometimes things would happen even in front of me.

MR MAPOMA: During your service as a policeman, nine years service, I suppose you knew where the storeroom with the service firearms was, is it not so?

MR MDLULI: That is correct, I did know.

MR MAPOMA: And it has never been your plan to rob the firearms from the storeroom of the police service weapons, is that so?

MR MDLULI: After nine years of service in the police I had knowledge of how well guarded those firearms were.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, Mr Mdluli, just answer my question. My question is very clear and it just needs a very simple answer. I am asking you when you were planning to rob firearms, it never came to your plans that you had to go and rob from the storeroom. I just want yes or no.

MR MDLULI: No.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. And what was happening at that shop where you went to rob? What was actually happening there?

MR MDLULI: It was a pension payout point.

MR MAPOMA: And you were aware that was what was going on there?

MR MDLULI: Yes I knew very well.

MR MAPOMA: And you were aware that the van which keeps money is escorted by police?

MR MDLULI: Yes I knew that.

MR MAPOMA: I see and you were aware when you took the trunk that that is the trunk which is supposed to be carrying money?

MR MDLULI: No, we knew that the money was kept in briefcases. In all police stations trunks are used to store firearms or ammunition.

MR MAPOMA: I see. You know of no trunk which was used to carry money?

MR MDLULI: No trunk is used to store money.

MR MAPOMA: I see. I see. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes. Tell me, the people responsible for paying out pension monies, where were they when they came back?

MR MDLULI: When we arrived those people were inside the shop where we didn't even go.

ADV SANDI: How did it go about before this incident, how exactly did you go about supporting the ANC as you've said you were a supporter of the ANC?

MR MDLULI: I explained before that I supported the ANC since my childhood until I joined the police service. When I was in the KwaZulu Police I became firm in my support in the ANC to render assistance to my community, my family and friends who were under attack and being killed by the IFP and KwaZulu Police.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me did you deliberate with anybody in the ANC about this robbery?

MR MDLULI: Yes Ugunulego was an ANC person who worked with the different units and they protected the community of peace action and Bheki who arrived later also was part of the discussions.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know the ANC chairman of the branch of the ANC in that area?

MR MDLULI: No I did not know the chairman, the people I had contact with were in the lower structures of the ANC, that is the foot soldiers who protected the township.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Chair. By launching this attack at this particular place where you did were you not putting the lives of pensioners in danger?

MR MDLULI: Our plan was to direct ourselves at the police who were as well trained as we were. We knew that if you point a firearm at a trained police officer it is difficult for that person to fight back. Nonetheless we were surprised to encounter police officers who were prepared to fight back and we were then forced to shoot.

ADV SANDI: That police officer you shot on the head, why did you shoot him on the head?

MR MDLULI: I shot him at the side of his head that is above the ear if I'm not mistaken.

ADV SANDI: Why did you do that, was it your intention to kill him?

MR MDLULI: The intention was not to kill him but what caused all that was that when I pointed my firearm at him and instructed him to put down his weapon he fought back, he tried to turn around and he had a HFC in his possession. Also I heard a gun going off and I was not sure who was firing so to be safe I felt that I should at that person who was directly in front of me because he was also fighting.

ADV SANDI: If you had found money in that truck would you have taken it?

MR MDLULI: Unfortunately when we did attempt to open the trunk on the scene but it was locked so it could not open.

We then assumed that there must be firearms or ammunition in the trunk. We only managed to open it at K Section and we only found a zinc slab inside. Our intention was to remove firearms not money. If we had an intention of robbing cash we would not have gone to the last pay point. Secondly, we knew very well that the people who were paying out the pensions were inside the shop and after we had shot and everybody had been killed it would not have been difficult to go inside the shop and remove that cash but we only removed the firearms and we left the scene.

ADV SANDI: But that does not answer the question. What would have been your attitude if you found money in the trunk? I know you didn't find any money in the trunk, what would you have done with the money if you found it?

MR MDLULI: If we could have opened it on the scene and discovered money inside we would have left it there because that was not our intention. Our objective was to acquire those firearms to assist our community.

ADV SANDI: These people you have mentioned, Gululeko and Bheki, where are they now?

MR MDLULI: The police could not trace Gululeko. We heard that he had skipped the country. I do not know about Bheki because he has never been arrested ever since.

ADV SANDI: You've not heard anything of Bheki, you've made no contact with the two whatsoever?

MR MDLULI: We never had contact but we would contact his younger brother. On our last contact he informed us that Gululeko has not returned up to this date.

ADV SANDI: How long after this incident were you arrested?

MR MDLULI: After a week, on the 29th March.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR NGUBANE: I've no re-examination thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mdluli, you're excused.

MR NGUBANE: That closes the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, any submissions?

MR NGUBANE IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My only submission is that the evidence by the applicant is enough either to advance or negate his case. I cannot improvise on what he has said. That is all I wish to submit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any submissions?

MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, my short route will be that as it is from the evidence it is quite inconceivable that the KwaZulu Police could have been supporters of the ANC during that time. In fact the applicant has not tendered a

convincing or satisfactory explanation as to how this irony occurred that he could be a member of KwaZulu Police and yet be a supporter of the ANC at that time and it is quite strange indeed as well for them to turn to rob weapons at a pay point and in fact rob a container which is supposed to be a container of money yet all the time the intention is to rob weapons and unfortunately some people died there and it is my submission that there has not been any explanation which makes the killing of those persons a politically motivated act.

Without dwelling much, Chairperson, I would say the application ought to be refused.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Is there anything else that you wanted to add Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the Panel will take time to consider this matter and will formulate a decision as soon as the circumstances permit for that to be done whereupon the decision will be made available to the parties with an interest in this matter. Under the circumstances the decision of the Panel is reserved.

Mr Ngubane, we thank you for your assistance in this matter.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, we've got one more matter left on the roll. What is the arrangement with Mr Panday in regard to that?

MR MAPOMA: He is present, Chairperson and also Mr Maseko is present. The applicant and the victims, they're all here.

CHAIRPERSON: They're present?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Perhaps we should take a short luncheon adjournment and try and start with this matter as soon as circumstances permit. We will take the luncheon adjournment at this stage but we will only adjourn for thirty minutes whereafter we will deal with the matter of Mkhize. So we will reconvene here in 30 minutes time. We're adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will now hear the amnesty application of Mandlekahise Joseph Mkhize, amnesty reference AM4477/96. The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record. Mr Panday, could you just put yourself on record?

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I confirm my appearance on behalf of the applicant Mr Mandlikhize Joseph Mkhize. Initial S, surname Panday.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday and then Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I confirm my appearance on behalf of the victims in this matter. My initial is M, surname is Sibeko, S-I-B-E-K-O.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibeko and the leader of evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma the leader of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Yes Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the applicant is the first witness to be led in terms of his application he may be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, can you hear the interpretation?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mkhize, is it correct that at present you are a prisoner in the Inkombe Prison?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: And Mr Mkhize when were you first taken to Inkombe Prison?

MR MKHIZE: I was taken there in 1994 on the 3rd November.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, for what offence or offences were you sentenced?

MR MKHIZE: Attempted murder, as well as possession of a hand grenade. It was attempted murder with a firearm, a home made firearm and possession of a hand grenade. Those are the charges I was sentenced for as well as the ammunition I had in my possession.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, what term of imprisonment are you serving?

MR MKHIZE: In total it was 14 years imprisonment.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize is it correct that you are now seeking amnesty in respect of the offences that you've been sentenced for?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I seek amnesty for the charges that the court indicted me and also because I did not have intention of doing that act but I was forced by the circumstances.

MR PANDAY: At the time of committing these acts where were you living?

MR MKHIZE: At that time I had no fixed residence because I was being sought by the police for the manufacture of firearms so I stayed with a relative.

MR PANDAY: Which area were you living in?

MR MKHIZE: It was at Empangeni, the Inkosi of that area is Zwelindale, I also stayed at Matigulu, that is where my father was born.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, the acts or the offences that you committed, in which area were these offences committed?

MR MKHIZE: It happened in the Empangeni in the Embo area.

MR PANDAY: Is that area described as the mid lows area?

MR MKHIZE: Mid Low is the town, it is a farm area but the crime happened at the tribal land which is under a chief.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, during that period of time were you a member of any political organisation?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I supported Mr Sepo Mkhize but this was done covertly because the ANC at the time was banned and if you were found out to be a member you'd be killed.

MR PANDAY: So is it correct to assume that you were an ANC supporter?

MR MKHIZE: Yes in other words I did support the ANC. In fact we had held discussions with Mr Sepo Mkhize for me to go receive training but he died, he was killed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sepo Mkhize, what position did he hold in the ANC?

MR MKHIZE: He was the ANC leader in the area and he used to be the one person who informed us on the teachings and policies of the ANC as to what assistance it rendered to Black people. He would give us these discussions in secret because that organisation was not wanted in Umbumbulu.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, when did you first join the ANC?

MR MKHIZE: Around 1983 that is when I got into contact with Mr Sepo Mkhize, that is when we had discussions about this organisation.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, in the area that you lived or resided in, were there any other political parties in that area?

MR MKHIZE: Yes the one active organisation at the time was the IFP because if I'm not wrong it was found around the '70s and the ANC was still operating underground.

MR PANDAY: You mentioned that the IFP was from the 1970s. Do you know how the IFP came to be a party since the 1970s in the said area?

MR MKHIZE: It all started in schools, that is when we were indoctrinated with the organisation. Some people didn't support it and some of us did not have any regard to it. The people who were more concerned about it were our parents, the older generation. Amongst the youth the opinions were divided.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, during the '70s you mentioned the IFP were also a party in the area. Do you know any event that caused there to be an IFP and ANC parties in the same area?

MR MKHIZE: With regards to the ANC there was first the UDF movement. At that time people used to wear ANC tee-shirts. At the time the UDF was the operating arm of the ANC. The IFP was already in existence by then because they operated freely without any problems but the establishment of the ANC was considered by UDF. After the UDF was disbanded then the ANC operated freely, that was in the '90s.

MR PANDAY: And Mr Mkhize at the time that you became a member of the ANC did you experience any problems in the Ndlovo area?

MR MKHIZE: Yes there were serious problems at mid Ndlovo because there were wars that were going on, people were fighting White farmers in the neighbouring areas. It was actually people who were living, residing inside those farms so they would launch attacks at us in tribal areas. When we went to report such matters the police would take no notice of the people who were being killed. That started around 1975, 1976. People from Lupapa were attacked and they were driven out of the area but the police did not take an action, they did not arrest those perpetrators. The area Umgugamisa was also attacked. People from Tamele were also attacked. A few of them remained near Mr Delongo's area. It was just a few of us remaining. After a while those people from the farms returned and they resided in the area. At that time I was no longer residing at Empangesi but Umbumbulu. I was then living with Mr Sepo Mkhize's group because of the violence that went on in the area and also for the fact that no one was being apprehended for those acts and the police were clearly aligning themselves with the perpetrators.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, the mentioned that the police did nothing and were aligning themselves with the perpetrators. Who were the perpetrators?

MR MKHIZE: It was Mr Tandawasi Mtenga's group. He was their leader. The reason why I point a finger at the police is because the people of Empangisa would identify the attackers but no one will be arrested. This affected me deeply because it appeared that we were all going to be finished up and no steps will be taken.

MR PANDAY: And Mr Tembagasi Mtembu, who was he?

MR MKHIZE: He was one of the people who resided in Empangisa after conquering that area. He was the leader of the attackers.

MR PANDAY: And why were the police on his side or aligned themselves with him?

MR MKHIZE: They were related by marriage with some of the police because from the police's actions you could see that they aligned themselves. When we were attacked the police would come to us and look for firearms or weapons from our side and not from them so we would be disarmed so that they can attack us more easily.

MR PANDAY: Did this Mr Mtembu belong to any political party?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot be completely certain but he once came to us and informed us that he wanted a few young men who would go and be trained in the use of firearms, that is in the use of G3 firearms. I declined to join this group, that is one action that convinced me that he was aligned to the IFP. When we declined, some of us declined to join that group, we were then targeted for attack.

MR PANDAY: Okay, Mr Mkhize I'm going to now take you to the day of the 25th March 1993. This is the day where the police had come to arrest you, right? Now could you explain to the Committee the events that took place on that day and why you had launched an attack on the police?

MR MKHIZE: I will explain briefly. The police would regularly pick me up because I had explained to the court that I can no longer go to court myself because some people would lie on the way for me. The magistrate then advised me to contact the police who would assist me in getting to the court. I did discuss the matter with the police.

On a certain day a certain police officer, Mr Mnengbe, informed me that he would no longer be able to fetch me because the people from the farms were complaining and I informed him the reason for their complaint is that they want to kill me. Mr Mnengbe said he was no longer going to pick me up. I then realised that I would no longer be able to attend court because I had already informed the magistrate of my predicament, that is people lay on the way for me and they would be in a better possession to kill me if I went by myself. That was when the warrant of arrest was issued for me. Nonetheless, the police knew that I could not go to the court voluntarily or on my own because I was afraid for my life.

So on the day I was supposed to attend court people would wait for me along the way and they would wait for anyone who passed by and if they encountered a person they would kill them. That is how that warrant of arrest was issued against me for being absent at court but I was not absconding it's just that I had no other way to get to court.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, before you go on, you mentioned that people were wanting to kill you if you went to court alone. Why were these people wanting to kill you?

MR MKHIZE: It was for the reason that I supported the Mkhize group because they showed that they had conquered or they had captured the land after winning the war. In that way we as the indigenous people of Empangisa who were born and bred there did not align themselves with them. That is how the war started.

MR PANDAY: You talk about aligning yourself with them, who is them, aligning yourself with who?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Tandawasi's men. He then went back to Bangisa.

MR PANDAY: Is that the IFP you refer to?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Right now as a result of people wanting to kill you, you then escaped, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, now I'm going to take you to the day where you attacked police, where you fired shots at the police and where you threw a hand grenade at the police. I want you to explain to the Committee why you attacked the police by shooting at them and throwing a hand grenade at them or in their direction?

MR MKHIZE: On that day I was keeping guard at Golo Park. I done this to protect the community because a rumour heard that they were going to approach from a certain forest in the area. I remained in a ...(indistinct) forest on the lookout for these people. I waited there until dusk fell. Thereafter I returned to the Ingite home. They then prepared tea for me. As I was still drinking tea I was with Vyasan Luluva. The dogs started barking outside. I then thought this must be the people I had been waiting for because the house was along the road so they wouldn't approach from that road. I then decided to cock my firearm. A person then kicked the door in. I then realised this person was in a fighting mood so I started firing and then after that there was a load noise firing from all around. I told everyone else to lie on the ground and I'd be the only person firing back. It was obvious to me these people were heavily armed. When I ran out of ammunition and I could hear from the sound that was going on outside that they were also running out of ammunition, they were changing cassettes. I then found that the heaviest noise was coming from below. I then decided to throw the hand grenade in that direction. I was in a rondawel and I threw the hand grenade from the top of the rondawel and threw it to that direction where the loudest noise came from. I then fell down to the ground and cocked my firearm again, ready.

After throwing the hand grenade I heard a woman's voice screaming, "Mandle, these are the police, they are not the attackers." I was surprised that they hadn't said anything. Why didn't they announce themselves? They were aware that there was fighting going on, why didn't they announce themselves and produce their badges? Why should we have to exchange such gunfire?

The station commander then approached and he said "yes, we are the police" and I didn't understand because at the time there were people who went around killing people and they will do this in the name of the police so I did not believe him at first.

Another police officer, Mr Njangasi, approached. I knew this Njangasi well so I recognised his voice. At that time I realised that these were the police and I thought of shooting myself and unfortunately I had run out of ammunition. They then asked for everybody else to leave the room and I was afraid that they might shoot me because I was an ANC person so I was afraid to come out, I remained in the rondawel but then everyone else persuaded me to come out and not be afraid. I then did so and I was apprehended outside the rondawel. They then started assaulting me, asking me where the firearms were I had nothing else besides the one that was in the house.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, you mentioned that you were afraid that the police might shoot you because you were an ANC person. Why would they shoot you just because you were an ANC person? Why do you think they would have just shot you?

MR MKHIZE: In the Ambo tribal lands most people, that is the elders even the Inkosi, were all IFP members and the ANC was labelled as terrorists because sometimes you will see helicopters on the lookout for those terrorists so you would be killed if you were found out to be one of them.

MR PANDAY: And Mr Mkhize was there any relationship between the IFP and the police?

MR MKHIZE: On my arrest I discovered that there was such a relationship particularly with regards to the station commander of Mid Illovo. When I was being questioned or when I was about to be interrogated he came with a certain ...(indistinct). He asked me what organisation did I belong to, the ANC, and I denied that because I was afraid they might shoot me because they were armed. I could even smell liquor on their breath. I thought that was the day for me that I was going to be killed because even Mr Sepo Mkhize was killed in custody. He cocked his firearm and pointed it, pressed it against my forehead. He told me that I should be killed and I thought that was the end. I started praying. They then left me but they told me that the IFP is much better. If you were an IFP member your case would go much better but we cannot ...(indistinct) the ANC in this area. That is when I realised that there was a good relationship. They even went to the extent of telling me that if I was an IFP member they would release me but because they suspect I'm an ANC member they would not. That was when I realised that the station commander and farmers and the people around that area were aligned to the IFP.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, previous to this incident did you know of any relationship between the IFP and the ANC?

MR MKHIZE: You mean prior to the commission of the crime?

MR PANDAY: Yes prior to the commission of the crime.

MR MKHIZE: It was only after my incarceration that I heard that there were moves towards reconciliation between the two organisations. I also heard that political prisoners should apply for amnesty.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, what did you hope to achieve at the time that you launched this attack on the people you report were attacking you?

MR MKHIZE: At the time it was to assist the community of Empangisa. They had suffered so many attacks that more than a thousand people had fled the area. That is why I felt I should protect the indigenous people of Empangisa who were not even protected or taken notice of by the protection services. My objective then was to protect the community.

MR PANDAY: These people that should attack the community, who were these people?

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to their names?

MR PANDAY: Okay, did they belong to any political party?

MR MKHIZE: I would say some of them were aligned to a political organisation and some were supporters or sympathisers of that organisation.

MR PANDAY: Of which organisation?

MR MKHIZE: The IFP.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, on the day that you acted is it correct to be assuming that your actions were as a result of protecting the community from attacks that may be launched against the community by the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now the ...(intervention)

MR MKHIZE: I had no intention of attacking the police, they were not my targets. I was just protecting the community on the realisation that the police themselves did not do anything. People were slaughtered like cattle and no investigations would be carried out so I was protecting those people but I had no intention of attacking the police.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, the weapon that you used what weapon was that, to fire the shots?

MR MKHIZE: It was an F1 hand grenade.

MR PANDAY: Was it an F1 hand grenade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And the firearm, the gun?

MR MKHIZE: It was a home made firearm that I had made myself.

MR PANDAY: And where did you obtain the hand grenade from?

MR MKHIZE: I will explain briefly. After Mr Sepo Mkhize's death, his son Sibo gave the hand grenade to me and he said I should be on the lookout because after killing his father the same people would be after me. Mr Mkhize had been taken by the police for interrogation and he was killed in their custody. Sibo then gave the hand grenade to me for protection because his father had been killed by the police for establishing the ANC in the area.

MR PANDAY: And do you know where Sibo Mkhize obtained the hand grenade?

MR MKHIZE: No I do not have knowledge thereof but he did hand it over to me.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Mkhize, were you found with any other weapons in your possession?

MR MKHIZE: I will explain. After we suffered those attacks I managed to make or to be able to make firearms so I would manufacture those firearms.

ADV SANDI: The hand grenade, where did you get it?

MR MKHIZE: It's the same hand grenade as I obtained from Sibo Mkhize whose father had been killed. After that incident we realised that we were also amongst the targets.

ADV SANDI: Did he tell you where he had obtained this hand grenade?

MR MKHIZE: No he did not.

ADV BOSMAN: Who taught you how to make firearms?

MR MKHIZE: My father bought me a pellet gun a pellet rifle, there was another person, a certain Mr Mgamo, whom I approached as to how I could alter my pellet firearm to make it into a home made rifle. He showed me and that is how I learned because I was intelligent I could catch on quite quickly.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, where was this Mr Mgamo from?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat that question?

MR PANDAY: Where was the man who taught you how to make firearms, where was he from, which area?

MR MKHIZE: Indwengo but I understand that he is now deceased.

MR PANDAY: And do you know if he made firearms for any other persons or political organisations?

MR MKHIZE: He would manufacture them to assist the people who were under attack because even in his area, the Indwengo area, there were ANC supporters who were under attack from the IFP and the IFP came from the Inyoni area so he would make those firearms to assist the people who were under attack.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, I'm going to refer you to a translation of your affidavit that you had drafted.

Sorry Mr Chairperson, one for me to hand the affidavit to the applicant first?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes where's this in the bundle?

MR PANDAY: The affidavit is on page 24, it starts at page 24 and finishes on page 29 and the translation is from page 21 to 23 of that affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it just a typed version of it? Okay.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, I'm going to show you an affidavit that was taken down and this is on pages 24 to 29. Now the signature that appears at the end of the affidavit, can you confirm that that is your signature?

MR MKHIZE: Yes it is mine.

MR PANDAY: And you confirm that you had - and who helped you write this affidavit? The signature appears here where my finger is, is that your signature?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is mine.

MR PANDAY: Who helped you draft this affidavit?

MR MKHIZE: An inmate at the Ingome Prison.

MR PANDAY: Okay, Mr Mkhize I'm now going to refer to a typed version of your affidavit that appears on page 22. Page 22 is a typed version of your affidavit or the part I'm going to refer to you. I will refer to paragraph 2.10 and in that paragraph you say in your hand written affidavit there:

Now who was assisting the Inkatha when the Inkatha was fighting?

MR MKHIZE: It was people like Tando Kwasi and other people from that area like Masitela. There were many of them but Tando Kwasi Mtembu, he was their commander.

MR PANDAY: And one more thing Mr Mkhize, on page 21 of the same affidavit, paragraph 2.1 the translated version is that the date of the incident was the 29th March. Now the court record reflects the date of the incident as the 25th March. Now is there an error in your affidavit or was the an error in the ...(intervention)

MR MKHIZE: Well I cannot say because I was assaulted and that rendered me to be in a confused and dazed state so I did not really take much notice of the date so I will think that was a mistake on my affidavit.

MR PANDAY: So the date should be the 25th March as according to the court record?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct because the courts always takes notice of those dates. As a prisoner I was exposed to various forms of assaults so I was confused.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Mkhize. Thank Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday. Mr Sibeko have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

Sir, if I follow you correctly, from your evidence you've given so far the origins of the conflict in your area, will I be correct to say it was a result of the tribal conflict, faction fighting? Answer the question, Sir?

MR MKHIZE: Yes there was a war that erupted between the people who lived on the farmlands and the people who lived on the tribal lands. That is how it started.

MR SIBEKO: And yet at that time there was no political organisation involvement? There was no involvement of any political organisation?

MR MKHIZE: At that time yes there was no political involvement because we were still young. It was faction fighting, they wanted to capture that area.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you say well of course this thing started when you were still young. Now you mean to tell this Committee of course it has been an ongoing faction fighting for which was kept carrying on in a number of years or there had been some period where there was a lull or of course then of course it will stop? What was the position?

MR MKHIZE: It was periodical, there would be an attack and the people would be driven out of their area and then there will be a lull, it would erupt again and the same people would be driven out. There were periods when there was a lull in the war. In 1990 we decided that we were not going to involve ourselves in the faction fighting but we were going to concentrate on fighting for the rights of the community. We then met as the youth in a meeting in Umbumbulo.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, during that entire period when of course they had, had there been any stage where of course there was some sort of peace being brokered between the warring factions that is maybe those groups which was from the farmers and your people that in what you term the indigenous people of Empangisa?

MR MKHIZE: I will not hide the facts from you. The peace could have been brokered if the Ingosi took any initiative in the war but he himself did not take any notice of the community so there was no peace that could be brokered. The people were just driven out, the police would also be informed and they would not take any steps.

MR SIBEKO: Yes Sir, now let me see whether I get it clear. Now you are saying that when the Ingosi was doing nothing, how many Ingosis were in that area per se or alternatively let me refer to it this way, now these people whom you were fighting with, that is the people from the farmers and you being the indigenous Mkhize group, were you belonging under the same Ingosi?

MR MKHIZE: We are under our Ingosi, Zwele Injani because White farmers had captured parts of his land and I would then regard the people from the farmlands as belonging under one Ingosi but in practise they were under the farmers so we only regarded ourselves as belonging to the Ingosi, Zwele Injani.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words what you are telling us is that when actually these people, the farm hands actually because you say that of course they were staying with the farm, the were residing in the farms which of course were belonging to the Whites, is that correct, if I follow you correctly?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now those attacks you are telling us were launched from the White farmers to your area, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now surely then say then what was the main reason were they motivated by the fact that when they had to drive you off you left?

MR MKHIZE: They just wanted to completely destroy us and capture our land. It was after attacking a certain area the same White farmers would then use that land to farm so that is what was their objective.

MR SIBEKO: So what you are saying is that when those people were in employ of the White farmers?

MR MKHIZE: I would not say they were employed by them but they didn't do anything. Moreover, White people enjoyed the fighting between the Black people so they didn't care because they gained and benefited because after those lands had been captured they would then start farming them.

MR SIBEKO: And the very same ones the people you had been fighting then surely then after when they had secured those lands, your lands, then of course they would remain landless because the White farmer will be the one of course who will be the owner of those lands. Is that right what I'm saying?

MR MKHIZE: Yes they had a serious problem because they were now under restrictions from the White farmers because they could not farm and get as many cattle as they wanted so I could see that they wanted the land so that they could live their lives as freely as they could.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Sibeko. Mr Mkhize can you explain something? You've just said the White people enjoyed the fighting that was taking place between the two factions. Can you explain what do you mean by that? Why do you say that?

MR MKHIZE: The White farmers are our neighbours at Empangisa. When the war was going on they did not do anything to broker peace or to contact the Amakosi that is why I say they enjoyed that fighting because we were the only people who were fighting who experienced war. There was peace in our lands and they would not do anything but when we went to their lands they would then take up arms. The same people from their farms who would attack us would hide in their farmlands and when we attack, launch counter-attacks, they would take up arms and they would call the police to come patrol and be on the lookout for any attacks that may be launched. That is why they say they didn't care about our fighting.

ADV SANDI: And the issue of political affiliations in respect of ANC and IFP, how does that come into the picture? Can you explain that?

MR MKHIZE: In 1990 the youth then met and discussed this issue of faction fighting and it was decided that that is not productive. What we should be embarking upon is a campaign to fight for the rights of residents so we are the people who met as an organisation and they also started having meetings which they held in the open but our meetings were in secret. I explained what I could about the ANC to the youth such education that I had received from Mr Sepo Mkhize. I then explained to them that they should go to the Isopingo office to obtain membership cards so that we could form a united voice. So there were people who had already joined the ANC and had membership cards. That is how the political, that is how it became political.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you further mentioned that well of course, now when did this issue of political affiliation exactly did it start taking place? Was it after the 1990s or before the 1990s, that is the issue of political affiliation, IFP versus the ANC?

MR MKHIZE: You're referring to Empangesa? I don't quite understand your question would you please repeat it for me?

MR SIBEKO: Now you mentioned that sometimes you then you decided to organise youth where of course you decided to teach the local youth about their rights and all those things and then you solely seeked them to go and get membership cards at Isipiwe. Then my question is when was that?

MR MKHIZE: In 1990 that's when the youth organised itself. We started holding meetings and telling each other to join the ANC in Empangisa because the youth wanted to defend themself and they wanted to belong to an organisation, an opposite organisation.

MR SIBEKO: Now you say some time in 1990 I take it it was probably when, was it sometime in June or when? You don't remember?

MR MKHIZE: Beginning of 1990. I do remember because in 1987 Mkhize tried when moved from Atanile and the beginning of 1990 that's when we started.

MR SIBEKO: So then in 1990, beginning of 1990 coincidentally it came with the unbanning of the ANC, is that correct, where then you started organising some of these meetings, secret meetings as you have put it?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, what I find very strange, why then was it necessary for you to engage in a secret meeting when of course ANC by that time it was now an unbanned organisation where people can freely operate.

MR MKHIZE: As I've already explained that in the area the elderly were IFP. We, the youth, we didn't see through one eye like the elderly in the area because we didn't want the elderly to look at us as mischievous and we also didn't want to have problems. Yes it was unbanned but in the area the elderly were IFP and they were going to kill us even though it was unbanned in the country as whole but in the area it wasn't as easy to be freely participating as a member of ANC.

MR SIBEKO: Now will you agree with me, if I am following your evidence correctly, before you started these meetings there had never been any conflict between the ANC and the IFP in that area, is that correct? That is before 1990 organisational?

MR MKHIZE: The conflict started in 1992 to 1993. That's when the incident when I shot at police occurred. It was because the police knew that I was in conflict with them and the IFP and also when I was approached and recruited that I should go and train and I refused. That's when they were shot at. I wasn't one of them. There is IFP in Empangisa.

MR SIBEKO: But be that as it may, Sir, the fact of the matter is from the first, 1990, 1991 up to 1992 because you said you started having a problem, of course then the area was enjoying a relative peace, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I will say there was never peace in the area. The only thing I can tell you is that most of the incidents which occurred they were never published. I will say in 1987 people were killed at Empangisa but this was never reported in the media or never reported in any documents. There are quite a number of incidents which were never published.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, I understand what you're saying but the fact of the matter is from what you have just said, you said for some time there was this period from 1990, 1991 where of course there was this - you started forming or then structures were created. You said at having these meetings. In fact you never encountered any problem, is that so? At there was no harassment that was coming from anywhere?

MR MKHIZE: We encountered problems before we formed ANC formally because I do remember an incident when police came in a school and started shooting at children and I saw this with my eyes and children came and they told us they were being shot at by police and when I asked them why they didn't know but then they wanted to go across a certain farm to fetch reports but most incidents were never published or reported.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, when did that happen, the shooting of children by police?

MR MKHIZE: I'm not certain but I think it was in 1989. At that time UDF was the predominant party. We had held a meeting at Kwadweno and people wanted to go and report their problems in the police station and children were shot at.

MR SIBEKO: But I understand what you have just said before the Committee but now my question of course, I'm still hammering on this point that you said that you started having conflicts up to 1992, 1993, that's when of course the whole mayhem, trouble started with the IFP organisation, is that so?

MR MKHIZE: Yes it is so.

MR SIBEKO: So Sir, if that's the case why then was it necessary for you to have these secret meetings when there was this relative peace which was in that particular committee and if I'll gather from you then there was no harassment whatsoever which was occurring at that time?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I think he's explained for more than two times that in this area the elderly members of the community are generally IFP orientated and the youth organised themselves and they ended up here that they sympathised with the UDF, ANC faction and they didn't want that to be known by the elderly members of the community because of all kinds of problems it would result in?

MR MKHIZE: It is so.

MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Committee Member, well I do concede he has explained but I'll move on, in fact I'll come back to that question then. I apologise.

Now Sir, you mentioned furthermore in your evidence in chief earlier on that you were receiving instruction from Sepo Mkhize, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now at what stage?

MR MKHIZE: You mean I must tell you about when Mr Sepo Mkhize gave me instructions? It started in 1985. Usually he was explaining to us that there will be an organisation that will come into place, that organisation will be fighting for the rights of the human beings. In 1987 I was found guilty because of my participating in a conflict of violence. I do remember this because on of the people who participated with me went to exile. The reason was because he was harbouring terrorist. Therefore from there I restricted myself into participating more often. Sepo Mkhize was the one who was guiding us. He was lecturing us on how to hide things more especially when you're talking about ANC as an organisation because it was going to land him into trouble.

MR SIBEKO: Now where was this Sepo Mkhize staying, residing?

MR MKHIZE: At Entenjani in the district of Umbumbulo.

MR SIBEKO: Now will I be incorrect if I were to say then when Entenjani and Umbumbulo and mid Illovo are situated a distance apart?

MR MKHIZE: Yes they are but they are under one district because I will say for example my father has a house in Illovo but where he was born was in Umbumbulo near Entenjani. These areas are close. People from Entenjani can also be residents of Illovo. Yes it is a distance from one area to the other.

MR SIBEKO: Now do you have any idea whether the police at Umbumbulo area were under KwaZulu government services and at mid Illovo then they would be belonging to South African Police Service?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I do know that because I do remember at one time when they were looking for me for manufacturing these firearms. The police from Illovo were looking for me and also when I was arrested for participating in the violence they took time to get hold of me because I was arrested by the Umbumbulo police and the Illovo police were looking for me and people told me before they could come and arrest me. I do know that they were ZP's and SAPs.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here to clarify one thing? They were looking for you because you were involved in making arms. Did you ever train as an MK soldier? Were you an MK commander? Did you have anything to do with MK?

MR MKHIZE: I was manufacturing arms and I was distributing these arms to the ANC supporters and ANC members because I wanted them to protect themselves with those guns that I was manufacturing.

ADV BOSMAN: You see why I'm asking the question is on page 11 which is a translation of your application you say that you were an MK commander?

MR MKHIZE: When Sepo passed away I was the one who was training other ANC supporters and I was showing them how to handle firearms because Sepo had been injured and had been killed. In 1991 I was the commander but not an MK but a commander in the area.

ADV BOSMAN: Then why did you say that you were an MK commander in the underground branch?

MR MKHIZE: It is because at the time everything we did was underground and also I was a commander. Everything we did was underground.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you become a commander?

MR MKHIZE: You mean in my area? Yes I was a commander in my area because I had more information on manufacturing firearms and also I was the one who was selecting people to go on war or violence.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Sibeko, you may continue.

MR SIBEKO: Now in your area, Empangisa area, were there any structures which were in place which were created by the organisation?

MR MKHIZE: What do you mean by structures?

MR SIBEKO: I take it Sir that surely you are familiar with the underground work that is the ANC cells, the letter boxes and all those things, were there any such structures in Empangisa area at mid Illovo during that time?

MR MKHIZE: It was the time when we started forming those structures but we never succeeded but we just started doing that. We never succeeded because of the elderly them being present all the time. We were not free at Empangisa.

MR SIBEKO: Let me see whether I follow it correctly? So then whatever what was in place at that time in Empangisa area was purely then a political work that is maybe then organising the youth in the area at that time, it had nothing to do with maybe then the defence activities, self defence activities that were taking place in the area?

MR MKHIZE: Yes it was like that. The reason we formed structures as youth it is because we realised that we were being attacked and we saw that this was destabilising us and we decided that we as youth we didn't need to live in situations like that and we should create a better future for us. We needed an organisation which was going to be there for us, an organisation which was going to fight for our rights because we couldn't stand the boers and then now the IFP. The boers came and took our land and now these people were also attacking us and they also wanted to take our land, therefore we decided that we needed to join an organisation which was going to fight for us.

MR SIBEKO: Yes I see, Sir, so then it means in other words your affidavit in fact, page 21 and page 22, paragraph 2.13 where you said you were a normal self defence unit member was incorrect because as you say all these things were still at the formative stage, you were still in a state of preparation?

MR MKHIZE: You mean it was in the initial stage? Yes it is so. In our area I won't dispute that. I was the one who was targeted as someone who had more knowledge about ANC because most of the time I wouldn't stay there, I will go to Umbumbulo and come back and also I'll tell them that we should organise ourselves in order to take care of our area but we couldn't do all these things freely and you can call us SDUs because all we did was to protect the community and to do underground work because also manufacturing guns, one cannot manufacture guns in front of anyone or letting anyone know about it because the government never wanted anyone to do that. They were the ones who were allowed to manufacture guns, everything I did I was doing it underground. It was my secret.

MR SIBEKO: So I put it to you Sir that in fact you were never a self defence unit member nor an MK commander but as you say yourself, if one follows your evidence, you were more often organiser than anything else in the area, is that so?

MR MKHIZE: Yes can also say that because I was organising the youth but also you can also say that I was a commander because I was the one who was distributing firearms and also even the youth told me that I should be the one who'd be their commander because they told me that if I wasn't present people were being attacked and killed but if I was present they were not killed. I remember one incident when the Xongo boy was killed at the Zwelenjani and the Moyeni area and sometimes when they come to our area they will attack during the night. This was before I was arrested and when they tried to attack these areas I was the one who was against them and I defeated them and after that that's why they selected me as their commander.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words when those people were attacking you it was the continuation of a tribal faction fight, will I be correct? Because you were able to ward off that attack?

MR MKHIZE: I will say the attackers had already acquired the land because they were one of us, the residents of Empangisa and I'm telling you, even if you can go there you'll still find those old places where they were staying. They had already acquired the land but they were still harassing us. They wanted us to join them and they also wanted us to join them to go to Caprivi and train as IFP armed wing. We didn't want to do that. They had already gained because they had already acquired the land but still they went further, they wanted us to join the IFP. This we refused so myself and the youth we counter-fought them.

ADV SANDI: Who wanted you to join the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: Thando Kwasi and his group. Thando is the one who came and told us that they needed men to join them and to be sent to Caprivi for training, that's when I realised that they wanted us to be trained on firearms and come back and guard the chiefs and the Indunas because they had legal guns, G3s and pump guns and I refused. That's when they realised that we were not aligned with them and that's when they suspected that we belonged to another organisation because we refused what they had requested from us.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Sibeko, just another question?

What exactly is in dispute, the background he is giving, is that in dispute? Is it in dispute that he was a member of the organisations he has referred to? Is it in dispute that he had this ability to manufacture arms?

MR SIBEKO: Sir, actually what is in dispute is that at the time when of course this offence which this applicant is applying, there was a political motive and objective. Now the part is in dispute is that in that area concerned there was no political strife whatsoever in that area and there was no presence of any political organisation in that area so basically that's up on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now can't we come to that? Let's deal with this incident before us, let's hear what is the basis of your opposition if there is any? Put it to this applicant, let the applicant response to that and let's move on with this application, alright?

MR SIBEKO: Sir, you further mention although you were not a commander you were reporting to Sepo Mkhize is that correct? Now what I will like to know, after Sepo Mkhize passed away to whom were you reporting?

MR MKHIZE: After they had passed away that's when we, the youth, organised ourselves. I went to Sipimo offices and I reported the matter that there were people coming from the tribal areas attacking us. That was the time when I was charged because I had already absconded my bail. People who had been killed, ten of them, at Empangisa. I used to report in the office.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, furthermore you mentioned that you had absconded in your criminal court case. What was that criminal court case all about in paragraph 2 and 4?

MR MKHIZE: I was arrested because of participating in this violence. People from Empangisa and Maholdo were attacking each other.

MR SIBEKO: So you got arrested as result of your activity in respect of the matter which you subsequently absconded?

MR MKHIZE: I was arrested and I was given bail. That is when the police who were supposed to come and fetch me everytime I was supposed to appear before the court didn't come and fetch me. After I had told the magistrate ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, you've told us that in great, great detail. We've written everything down as you said what happened about your case, the police wouldn't give you a lift and you were forced to stay away. Don't repeat it, just respond, listen to what the question is, just respond directly to the question, don't retell the whole story. We've already got it, we won't miss anything, just tell us something new, alright, and stick to the question please? Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: This criminal case which you subsequently absconded, what was it all about?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes didn't he answer that now? He participated in this conflict and he was charged.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairperson, in fact I didn't follow it, in fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes there was some conflict and he was charged for participating in the conflict.

MR SIBEKO: I put it to you Sir one of the victims who happens to Mr Njanga, he is going to testify in this Committee that actually it had nothing to do with the political conflict in the area and in fact it had to do with, it was actually an attempted murder where of course you had a quarrel with a certain gentleman where you shot him, a Mr Makwiki, that is all. It had nothing to do with the political conflict or anything in the area per se. What will you say to that?

MR MKHIZE: It is politically motivated. Even then in my trial they did explain this. I didn't want to tell the court that I was an ANC because I was scared.

MR SIBEKO: I further put it to you that Mr Njanga is going to testify that actually you had no reason to fear the police because they used to provide you transport you to and fro court and at no stage of course did any harm befall you? So of course there was no reason to fear about your affiliation, political affiliation, what do you say to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree or disagree?

MR MKHIZE: I disagree because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No, no, not because, because of nothing. Next question?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Njanga again will further testify to this court that on the day in question actually in fact he himself announced himself that when they arrived at her hut, he was the one who of course identified himself as the police officer and you did confirm that you were familiar with his voice. In fact there was no reason for you to react in the manner in which you reacted?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the shooting, are we there now, on the incident. So did you follow that? Have you got a response, one of the policemen said that you knew him or you knew his voice of whatever so you don't need to shoot at them?

MR MKHIZE: After I heard his voice then I didn't continue shooting but when I first started shooting he had said nothing.

MR SIBEKO: And I further put it to you that actually the victims furthermore they're going to testify that in actual fact you are the one who opened fire at them first in fact and thereafter then, before they could do anything you threw a hand grenade at them?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think there's no dispute there, I think his evidence is that he cocked his gun, somebody kicked open the gate and then he opened fire, right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Finally Sir, I put it to you then the victims furthermore are going to certify before this Committee that in actual fact this had nothing to do with the political conflict because there was none whatsoever. In fact you were running away from them of the pending charge which of course was already hanging over your head. That is why you reacted in the manner you had reacted by shooting at them in fact without any provocation?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you can respond to that but you don't need to repeat what you've already told us. If there's anything new that you want to say in response to that statement then you can do so?

MR MKHIZE: It was truly political and I was politically active at that time. They can say whatever they want to say. I had reason for being scared of them because I realised after they didn't come and pick me up that they wanted me to be killed by those people. The reason why they were taking me to court was because they were protecting me.

MR SIBEKO: Now how many times did they take you to court?

MR MKHIZE: If I'm not mistaken it was quite a number of times and the last time they brought me back home they searched my house, they were looking for arms, firearms and they couldn't find any but I think they'd taken me quite a number of times.

MR SIBEKO: During that occasion when they used to take you to and fro of course you had become quite accustomed to them, more specifically the ...(indistinct) those people who used to ferry you to court?

MR MKHIZE: Yes Nyembe more especially because usually he'd come even when he was alone and he told me that other police were not prepared to come back and take me and he also told me that it was his last time. That's when I realised that I was supposed to go and hide because I saw that there was no one who was going to protect me.

MR SIBEKO: Sir I further put it to you the victims are going to testify that at no stage as being the members of the South African Police Service in any way assisted IFP in any fight whatsoever in that area. But there again, what do you say to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree or disagree? The police said they never helped the IFP. Do you agree or disagree. You don't have to tell us the full story again that you testified about.

MR MKHIZE: I disagree because sometimes you'll find SAP who are IFP sympathisers and sometimes you will find SAP who are ANC sympathisers therefore I cannot say I agree or disagree.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words your statement in paragraph 2.10 in page 22 of your affidavit you are not certain where you said as explained "they were assisting Inkatha who were fighting us" so in the light of what you've just said you cannot be quite certain because there were others who were fighting who were IFP and who were ANC so the ANC/SACP there was no way they could have assisted IFP members that is Inkatha?

MR MKHIZE: I will explain that. There are SAP police who are IFP sympathisers and also SAP who are ANC sympathisers. They just belong to SAP as police.

MR SIBEKO: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibeko. Mr Mapoma any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR PANDAY: No. Sorry Mr Chairperson, the applicant he indicated he had two witnesses to be called namely his brothers. Their affidavits are reflected on pages 30 to 39. Now his sister is present and we've taken note that the brothers are not present. Can I just confirm with the applicant that he still requires his brothers to give evidence and have that placed on record, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, during consulting with you, you indicated that you had two brothers, B Mkhize and M Mkhize who will be giving evidence at your application. Now they are not present. Do you still require them to give evidence at your application?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I still do require them because they were the people who came to Umbumbulo to fetch me when they were being harassed. What I think is that they were not told as to when the Committee is going to sit and where the Committee is going to sit because I communicated with them over the phone.

MR PANDAY: Sorry Mr Chairperson? I think the applicant indicates that he would like for them to be present.

CHAIRPERSON: And what are they going to say, can you just explain to us?

MR PANDAY: I think the affidavit reads simply that they merely confirm in terms of the conflict, the tribal conflict that had taken place in the mid Illovo area, that's on pages 30 to 39.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes let's have a look at that? Is that in dispute in this case? Let's see?

MR PANDAY: I do not believe it to be in dispute Mr Chairperson as the brothers will merely testify that there was a conflict and that part of the tribe had followers to the IFP side and the other part had gone onto the ANC side. The only thing is that they may really be able to collate the events a bit better as opposed to what the applicant has but the essence I believe is still the same Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well should you not listen to what evidence is tendered in opposition to your client's case because we're not quite sure at this stage exactly what the opposition is?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then reassess your position and consult with your client and hear whether this sort of thing is strictly necessary? But if it's not really in dispute then it doesn't really assist the matter so perhaps you should hold back what you intend to do.

MR PANDAY: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well is provisionally the evidence that you had?

MR PANDAY: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko, do you intend to tender any evidence in opposition to this?

MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Chairperson. Yes I'll call Mr Ntshangase Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Crawford Sipho Ntshangase, do you want to call him as a witness?

MR SIBEKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes where's Mr Ntshangase, let him sit there next to you.

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: As the Committee pleases.

Mr Ntshangase, is it correct that you were a sergeant attached with the South African Police Station at Illovo?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: For long have you been stationed in the mid Illovo area?

MR NTSHANGASE: I've been there for approximately 10 years.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you have heard the evidence which of course has been led by the applicant in his application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now we have heard that he's asking amnesty for the action which took place on the 25th March 1999?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now can you tell this Committee briefly as to events which led to what happened on the said day?

MR NTSHANGASE: In fact I was investigating a case of attempted murder against Mr Mkhize. Then Mr Mkhize was arrested, given bail, but at a certain time he failed to appear before the court and then there was a warrant of arrest issued against Mr Mkhize.

MR SIBEKO: Now this attempted murder case which subsequently was granted bail, did it emanate from - was it due to a political conflict happening in the area or what was it all about?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, as far as I know there was no political activities in the mid Illovo area. This thing only operated from the faction fighting that was taking place in the mid Illovo area.

MR SIBEKO: Now are you familiar with the applicant in this case?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now for how long have you been in the area?

MR NTSHANGASE: I've been in the area for ten years but I've known the applicant for almost about three years.

MR SIBEKO: That is three years before this incident then?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes before this incident took place.

MR SIBEKO: Now on this fateful day what happened?

MR NTSHANGASE: Sir I went to Mr Ngete's kraal together with my colleagues. When I got to Mr Ngete's house I knocked at the door, identified myself, Sergeant Ntshangase from mid Illovo Police and then I requested the applicant before court

to open the house. Just after I identified myself to the applicant there was a gunshot fired right at the door.

MR SIBEKO: Now who was it you were with at the time when you approached the place?

MR NTSHANGASE: It was Sergeant Dlamuga, Sergeant Kulu, Sergeant Ralu, Sergeant Osborne, Inspector Dippenaar, Sergeant Nyembe and Sergeant Gcabashe.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people did you name now?

MR NTSHANGASE: Nine, nine altogether.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you colleagues, you were also stationed at the same place?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So including yourself it was nine?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Carry on.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, why was it necessary for you all nine of you to approach the Ngete's kraal, nine of you because instead of going two or three of you apprehending the applicant?

MR NTSHANGASE: No the fact is that it was dark at night and then we had received information that the applicant was already in possession of a hand grenade.

MR SIBEKO: Now you say that when you arrived there you identified yourself. How did you identify yourself?

MR NTSHANGASE: By shouting loud, saying that I'm Sergeant Ntshangase from mid Illovo Police and asked the accused to open the door, I was coming to arrest him in connection with the attempted murder case that he was charged for.

MR SIBEKO: Now after you had said that what happened?

MR NTSHANGASE: Just after I'd said that there was gunshot fired at the door where I was standing next to it then after that there was a hand grenade thrown at the same time after that shot was fired.

MR SIBEKO: Now this hand grenade which was thrown at you, did anyone sustain any injuries?

MR NTSHANGASE: The hand grenade was thrown through the window and Sergeant Dlamugo who was Constable Dlamugo at that time was injured.

MR SIBEKO: Now after then, this episode of you having one of your members injured as result of the hand grenade thrown at you, then what was your reaction, what did you do?

MR NTSHANGASE: There were gunshots fired by the police to the hut where the applicant was.

MR SIBEKO: Now this gunshot was it before the throwing of the hand grenade or after the hand grenade was thrown at you?

MR NTSHANGASE: The gunshots were fired by the police after the hand grenade was thrown out.

MR SIBEKO: Now did anyone who was inside the house injured as a result of your gunshot?

MR NTSHANGASE: Nobody was injured at the house.

MR SIBEKO: Now you have heard furthermore the applicant stating that there has been some instances where of course you were colluding with the IFP members in the area attacking some people of Empangesa area?

MR NTSHANGASE: No that is totally a lie, as I have said mid Illovo area there was no political activities like ANC or IFP in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Now first you must understand, he didn't say you personally, he didn't say you personally, his perception was that members of the police were colluding with the IFP in the area?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that's not correct?

MR NTSHANGASE: That's not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you speak for each one of the police in the area? Are you speaking for yourself or are you speaking for the police now?

MR NTSHANGASE: I'm speaking for myself the way I know, the area in my station and my colleagues in that area, they were not involved with anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Yes, now mention was made of the presence of faction fighting which was to take place in the area or what was happening in the area. Are you familiar with some of the aspects of these tribal faction fights which was taking place or which used to take place?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you say that's correct, when was the last time when the faction fights happened or was it during that time sometime when in March 1992, was there any faction fighting carrying on or taking place?

MR NTSHANGASE: At the time this incident took place there was no faction fighting but about two or three years back after this there was faction fighting in this area of Empangisa.

MR SIBEKO: Now the applicant has further testified before this Committee that he was a member, - before I come to that was there any organisational ...(indistinct) in the area that is whether it be an IFP or ANC at Empangisa area?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know there was nothing of such matters.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of policeman are you, are you a detective or what are you? What kind of work were you doing? You say you're an investigating officer, were you a detective or were you a crime investigator?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, I'm a detective.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a detective at that stage?

MR NTSHANGASE: At that time I was investigating under the uniform branch because mid Illovo Police didn't have some detectives.

CHAIRPERSON: Or in uniform, you had nothing to do with security matters?

MR NTSHANGASE: Nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Political matters?

MR NTSHANGASE: Nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, now if of course there was any political activity was it possible, would you have known about it?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes if there was any political activities we would have known about it.

ADV BOSMAN: Sergeant - if I may just come in here Mr Sibeko?

It's very difficult to believe that there was no political activity. I can understand if you say there was no political conflict. Can you just clarify that for me please?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can say there was no political activities, or conflict, both of them, that took place in mid Illovo because the way I know mid Illovo there was no branch of either ANC or IFP in the area or any other organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: But this was when people were beginning to get ready for the elections and everyone was talking about the release of President Mandela. This is why I find it bit difficult, I mean people in the country were generally discussing politics, was there no talk about politics in this area?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can see the way it looks but mid Illovo is such that people of that area they were very quiet as far as I know.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Sibeko.

ADV SANDI: Do you mean to say that there were no people in this area who either believed in the ANC or the IFP?

MR NTSHANGASE: If there were I think they were taking that secretly because no on actually shown himself or identified himself as an ANC or any other item like that.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any flags around for the ANC or IFP?

MR NTSHANGASE: Flags, there was nothing at all and that is the truth what I'm telling you.

ADV SANDI: No security branch office in the area?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct, there are no security branches in the area.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBEKO: Now, this mid Illovo area, is it an urbanised area or a semi-rural area or rural area? How is it?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can say it's a rural area.

MR SIBEKO: Now are you familiar with what the said applicant has stated before this court that when in fact well they used to be a faction which was aligned to IFP, that is Mr T Mthembu who used to launch some attacks from the farm areas?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes, I know Mr Mthembu but the way I know him is that he didn't belong to any political activities, political organisation because even the day the applicant showed that to Mr Mthembu it was just a friction just between the applicant and Mr Mthembu because the applicant, he didn't want Mr Mthembu to be appointed as an Induna for the youngsters because Mr Mthembu was just coming from the farms.

MR SIBEKO: So now let's for clarity purposes of the Committee, now Induna, you mean the Induna is Indonesiso?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: What's the rule of Indonesiso in a tribal rural set up.

MR NTSHANGASE: The work of an Indonesiso is to look after the youngsters if there's some weddings or anything that took place in younger people in the area.

MR SIBEKO: So now in your knowledge was at some stage maybe then or later, well before this incident happened, Mr Mthembu that is aligning himself with the IFP people, with the IFP?

MR NTSHANGASE: No I don't know anything of such.

ADV SANDI: Did Mr Mthembu say to you he did not believe in any political cause?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes Mr Mthembu was questioned about that but he told me that he doesn't belong to any political organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you say that Mr Mthembu was a traditionalist?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, I cannot be specific with that but I can say he does belong to the traditional.

ADV BOSMAN: Is it not so that the traditionalists were by the youngsters, that's maybe why they didn't want him. Were the traditionalist not regarded as IFP by the youngsters? I'm not saying he was IFP, I'm asking whether the youngsters who perceived him did not perceive him as an IFP person or can't you answer that?

MR NTSHANGASE: No I cannot answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it possible because there seemed, to my mind, there seemed to have been this identification of people who held positions of authority in the traditional system was regarded as some are being linked to the IFP? So is the proposition that my colleague put to you not possible? Even if it's wrong but that is a perception of the young people?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, I cannot comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't comment?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can't comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko, sorry.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Chair. What I find it difficult to understand is that if there are no political clashes in this area why did you have to ask Mr Mthembu if he believed in any political cause in the course of your interview of him whilst you were investigating this case against Mr Mkhize?

MR NTSHANGASE: The reason was that we wanted to find out whether it was a faction fight or it was a political. As it was already mentioned here at that time there was some political conflict all over South Africa so what we had to find out whether this then was related to the faction fight or it was related to the political things.

ADV SANDI: The attempted murder had taken place in your area where there was no political conflict?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now why did you have to ask him if he belonged to any political organisation? It could never have been a politically motivated attack if what you're saying is true?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes as I'm saying there was no political activities in that area of ours, the only thing is that the applicant and the Mkhize people, they didn't want Mr Mthembu to be appointed as an Induna of the youngsters because he was from the farm and he was new in the area of Empangisa so they wanted a person who would be in the area for a long time and whose other Mkhize family because most of the Empangesa area belongs to the Mkhize people.

ADV SANDI: But you still asked him if he was aligned to any political organisation and you say the reason for that was because you wanted to find out if the attack was politically motivated?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes you see I can say in the old government if there was a crime committed he had to be reported to the area commissioner then at the area commissioner, when you report a crime, they will ask you whether it was political or it was not political. We had no record of that crime that's why I asked that question to Mr Mthembu.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Sibeko, carry on?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you do that. Mr Sibo Mkhize, was he linked to the ANC?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know he was linked to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now just a recap and follow up of what was said, this question. Now was Sibo Mkhize operating within mid Illovo, do you know him?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, I don't know MR Sibo Mkhize but all what I know that he was operating from Umbumbulo area.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words what you are saying is that of course when Umbumbulo area it's another jurisdiction than your jurisdiction?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct, mid Illovo doesn't fall under Umbumbulo, those are two different places.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words in the old South African set up then will you say that mid Illovo belonged to Natal and Umbumbulo belonged to KwaZulu Natal? Was that the position?

MR NTSHANGASE: It was like that.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words that is why the police were then that's why at Umbumbulo area then there was a KZP which was operating there, you at mid Illovo then, there was SAP?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you further heard that the applicant has testified before this Committee that when he was suspected you of aligning yourself with the IFP members then of course there had been some instances when some of your members had participated in the attacks?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is not correct.

MR SIBEKO: So now will you briefly tell this Committee the reason why the offence which of course was committed on the 23rd March it had nothing to do with the politics, is that what you are telling me now?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct, that's what I'm telling you is the correct. This incident was not related to any political activities.

MR SIBEKO: So now how would you explain the applicant firing at you when you announced yourself?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can explain. The applicant, that's the type of person who wouldn't like the police or he didn't want to be arrested or taken to jail, that is the reason why he fired at the police.

MR SIBEKO: Now he has mentioned to this Committee that he no longer trusted you because you could have been in cahoots with the people who may have wanted him out, what do you say to that?

MR NTSHANGASE: I would say that the applicant is lying because several times I, myself fetched the applicant from his house to the police station to court when he was supposed to appear before the court and then I'd done that several times, he used to phone me or send messages and then I will take up the police van, go and fetch him to court and then after that I will take him back from court to his house.

MR SIBEKO: So now when he absconded I take it that a thirty days period had already expired when you started looking for him or what was the position?

MR NTSHANGASE: After he had planned to appear before court and then we started to look for him.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here again. Tell me, Sergeant Ntshangase, did you at any stage or one of your colleagues indicate to him that you were no longer prepared to take him to court and to grant him some sort of protection?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know what happened on that day, you see Illovo is justice police station with about 20 members and then we had two police vans. On that day when he failed to appear the court one van was broken and then it was only van at the police station so we explained when the applicant phoned at the police station, we explained to him that we will not be able to fetch him because we only had one van, the other one is broken so he must try other means to come to court.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it not a reasonable inference that he then drew that he was not safe?

MR NTSHANGASE: On the side of maybe the complainant in the attempted murder case maybe I can say that he was scared of the complainants in that attempted murder case.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Can you just explain this, did you go to look for him on the same day he had failed to appear in court?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes on the same day after the court then I went to Empangisa and then I did send a word from the Zonde Store to tell him that he must come to court or he must try and contact me so that I will make other arrangements to come to court and then because a warrant of arrest was issued but I explained to the magistrate the reason why he had failed to appear before court because the applicant was very well known to me.

ADV SANDI: This place where this shooting took place you went there on the same day that he failed to appear in court?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct, I went on the same day.

ADV SANDI: The information that he had a hand grenade, when did you get that information?

MR NTSHANGASE: The information came about two or three weeks after he failed to appear before the court.

ADV SANDI: I don't follow you now. He fails to appear in court and you go and look for him and the shooting incident takes place on the same day, not so?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, I mean to say the accused failed to appear before court then I went to his area where he stayed then I left a message with the people to tell him that he mustn't be afraid that just because he failed to appear before court he will be arrested, he must phone me and I will still be prepared to fetch him and take him to court but he didn't do that. Thereafter that we then, after about two or three weeks we then received information that he was also now in possession of a hand grenade and he was not prepared to come to court any longer.

ADV SANDI: Thanks Mr Sibeko.

MR SIBEKO: Now Mr Ntshangase, you have mentioned that you were a police officer in that area. For how long have you been in mid Illovo?

MR NTSHANGASE: I've already said I've been working there for ten years.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words you are quite familiar with people of the area?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now one last question. No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Have you got any questions Mr Panday?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Yes Mr Chairperson.

Mr Ntshangase, before we go into your evidence, could you explain to the Committee members why Mr Mkhize was afforded the privilege of the police fetching him and taking him to court on every occasion, what was the reason for that?

MR NTSHANGASE: The reason was that when he goes to court he had to go past the complainant's house before he gets to the police station or to get to court.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshangase, you're an investigating officer, isn't the long course of events it's normally the complainant that is afraid of the accused and not the accused that is afraid of the complainant?

MR NTSHANGASE: It is like that but just because as I've said Mr Mthembu with his brothers there on the farm there, how can I put it, I can say the applicant was just afraid of Mr Mthembu with his brothers.

MR PANDAY: Alright, now Mr Ntshangase, when you were stationed at the mid Illovo Police Station how long were you a policeman from your appointment at the mid Illovo Police Station?

MR NTSHANGASE: I've been there for 10 years.

MR PANDAY: And how long are you in the police force currently?

MR NTSHANGASE: At that time?

MR PANDAY: At the time you were in mid Illovo, were you already ten years in service?

MR NTSHANGASE: I was 8 years in service when this incident took place at the time.

MR PANDAY: So you got about almost 14 years of service in the police force?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes it's affirmative.

MR PANDAY: Thank you. Now Mr Ntshangase, were you resident in the mid Illovo area, were you born and brought up in the mid Illovo area?

MR NTSHANGASE: No I was born and grew up in Howick area.

MR PANDAY: So it would be correct to assume that you would not know of the happenings in the community of mid Illovo, you were effectively an outsider to that area?

MR NTSHANGASE: Since I was there for a long time ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: No, just answer my question, you were born and brought up in the Howick area, that is correct right? You've confirmed that? Now in the mid Illovo area, did you live there once you became appointed as a policeman?

MR NTSHANGASE: No I only worked there.

MR PANDAY: You only worked?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: So you attended work and you travelled back to the Howick area, is that correct?

MR NTSHANGASE: I only travelled to Howick area on the weekends when I'm off.

MR PANDAY: Okay. Do you also associate with the people in the - forgive my pronunciation, in the area from which the applicant lived in? Did you associate with the people in that area?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes Sir.

MR PANDAY: In that you spent time with them except your working hours?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR PANDAY: What sort of time would you spend with the people in that area?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, just playing soccer with them then attending meetings if there's some meeting called up by the chief and other people in the area.

MR PANDAY: What were these meetings called up for?

MR NTSHANGASE: Just to make peace maybe if there two - or during the faction fighting at the time.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Ntshangase, this faction fighting, would it be possible that one side of the faction supported the IFP and the other side supported the ANC? I'm asking you if it would be possible, I'm not asking you to give me a confirmation, would it be possible?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know it wasn't associated with any political activities.

MR PANDAY: So you are saying ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, why would it not be possible?

MR PANDAY: Because if people were just fighting there over girlfriends just fighting over can say about Zulu dancing, that's what the cause of all this faction fighting.

ADV SANDI: Is it not possible that one party in the course of this faction fights would perceive the other to be aligned to the ANC and one group perceive the other to be aligned to the ANC and so forth? Aren't those kinds of perceptions possible?

CHAIRPERSON: May I add you've already said that Sibo Mkhize seems to have been clearly aligned to the ANC and you said that this applicant is associated with him? Is it Mkhize, the area belonged to them, you said?

MR NTSHANGASE: The area belongs to the Mkhize family but I will say definitely the thing was not - the Zulu dance or everything that caused the faction fight was not involved with the politics.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain, how would the applicant be aligned to the ANC if there was no ANC in that area?

MR NTSHANGASE: I will say that if the applicant is just asking for amnesty or to be freed from jail because he's been sentenced for quite a long time now he wanted other means to get out of jail because really what happens at mid Illovo there was no political ...(indistinct) in the area.

MR PANDAY: I think Mr Chairperson there's a storm on it's way.

Mr Ntshangase, let me put this more simplistically, it's correct that you are in the police force, isn't that so?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: There are also many members in the police force. Now in this police force you are a group of people right? Like Mr Mkhize he is a group from the Mkhizes that belonged to a group in the area. Now in the police force isn't it possible that most of you will be aligned to different political parties, you will have different political views, is that not possible?

MR NTSHANGASE: It is possible.

MR PANDAY: Now why is it not possible in this scenario?

Just to clarify for you, if we have the Induna, he is a person you must accept that he is not an animated thing, he's a person, he lives. He's got people that follow him. You mentioned that this Induna is there to guide the youth to solve problems. Now if he's seen as a person of a figurehead, as a person with standing in the community, isn't it possible that this Induna could have very well guided the people to follow the IFP?

MR NTSHANGASE: It is possible but as far as I know at mid Illovo there was not a single incident that was reported which was related to the political activities. If there was anything we could have known of that.

MR PANDAY: Okay Mr Ntshangase, you also mentioned that you played soccer now and then with the people in this area. Did you associate with the Mkhizes as well in that area?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes affirmative, I was playing with Mkhizes and everyone in the area.

MR PANDAY: Did you discuss problems with the Mkhizes as well?

MR NTSHANGASE: If there was anything that involves them I would discuss problems with them.

MR PANDAY: No, that's not what I'm asking you, did you discuss any problems with them? Sorry, did you discuss the conflict that exists between the Induna and Mkhizes?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes affirmative we did discuss it.

MR PANDAY: What was their response?

MR NTSHANGASE: No the Mkhizes, they wanted the Mthembu people to go back to the farms, they didn't want them to come and stay in the Empangisa area.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Ntshangase, you also mentioned that you would know if there was any political activities in the area. Now is it correct that you mentioned in your evidence that the people may keep quiet as to their political affiliation, isn't that correct in your evidence, it was mentioned?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes it was mentioned.

MR PANDAY: Now isn't it also possible that this Induna didn't let you know, you mentioned you had discussions with him, you know that, you've mentioned it a bit earlier. You mentioned that the Induna was to take care of the people around that point of evidence but is it not possible that the Induna didn't want to tell you that he was an IFP member?

MR NTSHANGASE: The Indunas, they are the ones who used to give us information what is happening to the area because we used to keep in touch with them several times but at this stage they'd inform us if anything that involves politics in the area.

MR PANDAY: No but my point being, Mr Ntshangase, if there was any political activity why would the Induna inform you that it's political if he was hiding his political affiliation. If people in the area kept a secret of their political affiliation why must he now tell you of the political affiliation or any activity that's political because to an effect the Induna he had to have been on a political side?

MR NTSHANGASE: As I were saying we were working hand in hand with the Indunas and everyone. I think I don't see any reason why he would hide that to me, he can tell me what was happening.

MR PANDAY: But he may very well have chosen not to tell you, that's also very possible. Now Mr Ntshangase, you mention a lot that you worked hand in hand with the Induna. Now the applicant has testified that there was always a perception that the police worked hand in hand with the IFP. Now isn't it very well possible that on the day of the attack that firstly the applicant thought that he was being attacked by the attackers, the IFP and he was also scared of the police because they believed them to be part of the IFP?

MR NTSHANGASE: As I've already said there was no political organisation in the area and then there was no reason, the police at mid Illovo would not have been involved in any of these things because there was no political activities there.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshangase, you seem to stress the point that there's no political activities, what was the date that you were appointed in the mid Illovo area as a policeman?

MR NTSHANGASE: It was in 1984.

MR PANDAY: 1984? Now in 1984 isn't it correct that the organisation, namely the ANC was still banned?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now when you joined the mid Illovo back in 1984 what was your position there?

MR NTSHANGASE: I was a constable.

MR PANDAY: And at the time of the arrest of the applicant isn't it correct you were merely the investigator?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: And the primary concern of the police in the mid Illovo area was to attend to more criminal activity not political activity in the area, is that also correct?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes I will say that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now then isn't it also possible that the police in the mid Illovo area were not always kept abreast of any political activity or underground activity in that area because this would have come obviously from special branch and not your regular police?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Thank you. Now Mr Ntshangase, just to get one more important question, in your affidavit on page 80 of the bundle of documents, if you'd like a copy I've got a spare copy, if you would just read it? Right, you testified in the beginning in your evidence that you identified yourself and then the constable kicked the door in and it was at that point that shots were fired. Now let me refer you to paragraph 4 of your affidavit that states that as is quoted:

Right? "I knocked at the door", is that correct?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Right now this is where the change in the evidence comes:

Now the discrepancy in your evidence now is that you knocked, you identified yourself and then the door was kicked. Now where does the discrepancy lie, in your affidavit on page 80 or the evidence that you've tendered before this Commission?

MR NTSHANGASE: The evidence on page 80.

MR PANDAY: Is that the correct version?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Okay the reason we'll also submit was that in keeping with the version that the applicant has put before this Committee that he heard the footsteps and the door was kicked in and the shot went off. Right, now more importantly Mr Ntshangase, the applicant has testified that he believed that at that point he or the people in the area were being attacked by the attackers, namely the IFP. Now keeping in line with what you've mentioned, that paragraph 4 is now the correct version of what took place, isn't it now very possible that when that door was first kicked in this applicant immediately responded by thinking that the attackers were now attacking them as opposed to the police coming to arrest him?

MR NTSHANGASE: The point here that I'm against it, is that you've saying that IFP mentioning political things. At that stage, as I've said, there was no politics in that area. That is why that is the point I'm against it on this applicant here, on this application here.

MR PANDAY: You see Mr Ntshangase, whilst you can accept that or whilst we may listen to what you are saying that you are against the application on the basis that there was no political activity, what you must also bear in mind is that you were not in a position to know of any political activities because one, your job revolved around mainly criminal activities as in murders, robberies, as in the normal routine of what you policemen would attend to in these areas. You never received any directives from the special branches that there were political activities and as you've testified the special branch has never kept you, you or the mid Illovo Police abreast of any political activities. Now that we find hard to believe. We're not saying you're a liar, we're just saying that this information cannot be within your knowledge and as such it doesn't put you in a position to challenge the version of the applicant. Do you have any comment on that?

MR NTSHANGASE: No comment.

MR PANDAY: Nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few Mr Chairperson.

When Tandakwasi Mthembu told you that he belonged to no political organisation, did you believe him?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes I did believe him because as I've already said we didn't know any political activities in our area.

MR MAPOMA: Is that the reason why you believed him?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ask the applicant what political organisation he belonged to?

MR NTSHANGASE: No I didn't ask him.

MR MAPOMA: Why?

MR NTSHANGASE: Because to my knowledge and since I was in the area for a long time I didn't have any information or got any information in that regard to the political activities.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, no, no, Mr Ntshangase. You see you were dealing with a situation there when Mthembu was a complainant of attempted murder from Mr Mkhize. Now in the course of investigation of this you asked the complainant whether he belongs to any political organisation, he gives you an answer, you believe him. Why don't you ask then the accused person?

MR NTSHANGASE: That could have slipped out of my mind on that day.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Sepo Mkhize?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, I didn't know him but I used to - I heard about him.

MR MAPOMA: And you heard that he is Sibo Mkhize's father?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear that he was killed by a policeman?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear that he was a member of the ANC?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes I heard about that.

MR MAPOMA: Now during all this were you aware that the applicant was also a member of the ANC?

MR NTSHANGASE: No I wasn't aware of that.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, now you agree with the applicant that Tandawasi Mthembu was the leader of what you call a faction which were staying in the farm?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And in the other area it was the Mkhizes?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, Mr Mthembu was staying on the farm before thereafter they moved to Empangisa area where the most Mkhize people stayed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. Yes. So at least three of the Mkhize's now were members of the ANC, you were aware of that weren't you?

MR NTSHANGASE: Can you repeat that?

MR MAPOMA: At least three of the Mkhizes, during the faction fighting, what you call the faction fighting, three of the Mkhizes at least were members of the ANC that was known to you?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct but I would like to comment on that. At that time when Mr Sepo Mkhize was already dead at that time when this incident took place and I'm not sure but Sepo Mkhize at that time was already the deceased or not.

MR MAPOMA: Yes fair enough. Did you at all investigate, I'm not asking you personally now, was it ever investigated the causes of what you call the faction fighting?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes it was investigated.

MR MAPOMA: Who investigated that?

MR NTSHANGASE: It was members, my colleagues in the mid Illovo area.

MR MAPOMA: Did you get the report?

MR NTSHANGASE: What else I can say is that you see it was investigated in this way, maybe a person would be killed and then a murder docket will be opened and it will booked to a certain officer and then he will investigate that murder case.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, so you were just investigating a crime which was committed in the course of what you call the faction fighting?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You did not go deep into investigating what are the causes of this faction fighting?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can say we went deep because we used to question the people, ask them what they were fighting for, what was their reason, the reason why they were fighting and then they will tell us this fight started over because the Mkhize people didn't want Mr Mthembu to be elected as the Induna for the youngsters because he was new in the area, they wanted the Mkhize people to be nominated as Induna of the youngsters.

MR MAPOMA: I see. Now where is Mthembu?

MR NTSHANGASE: At the present stage? You've asking at the present moment?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, yes.

MR NTSHANGASE: I don't know now because I've left mid Illovo about three years back.

MR MAPOMA: I see. When did you leave mid Illovo?

MR NTSHANGASE: I left mid Illovo in 1996.

MR MAPOMA: Now before you left what organisation did Tandakwasi Mthembu belong to?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know I didn't know which organisation did he belong to.

MR MAPOMA: Oh, up till 1994 you didn't happen to know which organisation Mthembu belonged to?

MR NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: In April 1994 were you still at mid Illovo?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes I was still there.

ADV SANDI: Did any elections take place there, did the people participate in the April 1994 elections?

MR NTSHANGASE: Elections did take place.

ADV SANDI: How did that go?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know everything went alright, there were no complaints to anybody, from any side.

ADV SANDI: I take it that you cannot claim to know the political perceptions that existed at mid Illovo at the time we're talking about today?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can say I know everything that took place at that time since I was working there in that area for a long time.

ADV SANDI: I'm talking about political perceptions. You can't claim to know that who thinks what about who politically, can you?

MR NTSHANGASE: Since there was, as I've said, since there was no political activities that took place or movements or anything that took place at that time I will say there was nothing of that matter.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ntshangase, you conceded that Mthembu was a traditionalist. Would you say that the Mkhizes were also traditionalists?

MR NTSHANGASE: Yes you can say both of them were traditionalists, that's so.

ADV BOSMAN: And the youngsters there, were they not a little less traditionalists than the older people?

MR NTSHANGASE: I would not comment on that but although most of the youngsters in the area, in that area, they were still up with these elder people doing Zulu dance together, everything together.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did say that there were some differences on the Zulu dancing. Was it not because some people were less traditionalists than other.

MR NTSHANGASE: It's not that causes the faction fight or the quarrel over the Zulu dances because the quarrel over the Zulu dance would appear if one group have performed better than the other group.

ADV BOSMAN: I misunderstood you there. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Now do you know whether Sibo and Sepo Mkhize, were they staying in mid Illovo, Empangisa location?

MR NTSHANGASE: Both of them were not staying in mid Illovo area.

MR SIBEKO: Now how did you come to know about it, was it through the word of mouth, in the newspapers or what?

MR NTSHANGASE: No, we used to hear over the radio and then sometimes when they go to Umbumbulo because Umbumbulo and mid Illovo were just close to each other.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words do you know whether the applicant was associated with Sepo Mkhize?

MR NTSHANGASE: As far as I know I didn't know that the applicant was associated with Sepo Mkhize, I only found out just when they have made this application here.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you've heard that when you answered that you've considered that Sepo Mkhize was killed by the members of the police. Now will you clarify as to which members because earlier on you mentioned that there is KwaZulu Police which were under KwaZulu Government and the SAP which were belonging to the old South Africa. Now this Sepo Mkhize, which police officers killed him?

MR NTSHANGASE: If I'm not mistaken, Sepo Mkhize was killed by KwaZulu Police then Sibo he was shot at Lamontville by the I think it's the SAP.

MR SIBEKO: So in others words Sibo was waging a war against the whole police force who specifically was targeting KwaZulu Police, or what?

MR NTSHANGASE: I can say he was targeting to all the police.

MR SIBEKO: That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ntshangase, you are excused, thank you very much.

MR NTSHANGASE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairperson well I don't think, because I was under the impression that maybe then I'll call the second victim but I don't think it will take the issue any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well if he's not going to add any substance to what Mr Ntshangase has said who seemed to have been very intimately involved with the case, with the incident that happened and the background to the area and so on and so forth. It might not be of some assistance.

MR SIBEKO: I think what the only aspect he can only comment is to the day when this thing exactly happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Yes I don't know whether maybe then, but I'll leave it in the hands of the Committee maybe it would be appropriate and maybe then make some input as to actually what did he see and what was the reaction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well do you believe that he can add something on the incident itself? The other witness that you had in mind?

MR SIBEKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You think so?

MR SIBEKO: There are two or three questions.

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the witnesses coming before the Panel are going to testify what the documents in the bundle insofar as the incident is concerned, that is not in dispute. Even the sequence of events in terms of the political motivation, if there was political motivation, I will submit cannot seem them taking the matter much further unless they have some specific knowledge and that's not disclosed in this bundle and so the purpose of expediting this matter, Mr Chairperson, I'll submit that even if one has to accept the evidence in the bundle materially does not effect or cause any prejudice to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes there doesn't seem to be a real dispute on the incident but given the sequence of what happened that night seems to be common cause?

MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Chairperson, I think I do concede, I don't think it will take the issue further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you can argue on the papers too if you want to, there are the affidavits but they don't really add much.

Will that be the case on behalf of the victims?

MR PANDAY: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, have you got any evidence you're tendering?

MR MAPOMA: I have no further evidence Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you got any submissions on the merits?

MR PANDAY IN ARGUMENT: No Mr Chair, I think it's pretty self-explanatory except for the evidence tendered by the witness, Mr Chairperson, that itself one can gauge that the witness was not in a position to judge the political situation in the area and as such that his evidence does not indicate a substantial ground for opposing the application brought by the applicant for the amnesty in relation to the incidents that took place on the 25th March I think it's 1983 and the applicant's version is quite simply that there were attacks being launched against the ANC by the traditionalists who obviously at that stage seemed to be supporting the IFP and on the day in question it was perceived that the attack was that of the IFP and the retaliation was on that basis as a result creating the political basis. Nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Panday. Mr Sibeko, any submissions?

MR SIBEKO IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson, well of course it is my humble submission that the offence which occurred on the 23rd 1993, it cannot be said to be committed under the political objective. It's further my submission that although it has been said by my learned friend the witness who has just testified is not in a position to gainsay as to the political perception in the area. Mr Chairperson, well it is my submission that we are not dealing with a situation a stage where in the '80s the ANC was already banned and there was a free political activity and as a person who is anchored in that particular community, being a police officer, he has been here for the past eight years, he knows the political barometer and as to the political perception of the people of the area, he's in a better position to know actually as to what was happening.

Now the only reasonable conclusion, the context in which the act was committed, again Chairperson it's further my submission that it cannot be said there was a political objective in the sense that it was clear that the applicant in this instance, he had absconded with the criminal case which was pending which the affidavit stated that people were approaching, members of the police force, then he opened a gunfire that some of the police members were affected. Therefore Chairperson, it is my submission that as for the aspect whether then Sibo or Sepo Mkhize, we are talking about two different areas. Sibo Mkhize as of course the witness has testified, Sibo Mkhize and Sepo Mkhize, they were staying in a totally different area which happened to be at Umbumbulo which is a distance away from mid Illovo and I further submit, Mr Chairperson, that given the conflict what was happening at KwaZulu at that time, there was this general perception that the IFP it was given that the IFP be the ZP, that is the KwaZulu Police were in line with the IFP but in this instance which as of course the evidence has been led before this, the victims then, which was quite considered by the applicant in this instance that the police officers at mid Illovo, they were under the area of jurisdiction of South Africa which necessitated they were under SAPS vis-a-vis not under KwaZulu Government which can indicate a little level of political bias in executing their duties. Mr Chairperson, on the strength of that what I've highlighted, it is my submission Mr Chairperson, that this offence when that was committed there was no political objective. That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibeko. Mr Mapoma, any submissions?

MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson, if I can just contribute. Chairperson, it is not disputed that there were differences between two groups in that area and as a result of which the applicant had to shoot at somebody hence the victims were shot at, that is the actual reason which apparently caused the shooting in the mind of the applicant at the time on the evidence before us. Then it therefore shifts the focus on what were the causes of this difference between these two groups which is described by the police as a faction fighting and nothing else. Then I would therefore say, Chairperson, that the Committee has to be careful now not to just dismiss it as a mere faction fighting which was happening there, especially given the fact that one of these groups was dominated by the Mkhizes and it has since transpired in this evidence that the Mkhizes have got a history of being ANC members and they have got a history of a ...(indistinct) with the police for that matter. So it would be highly improbable to just say that this was just a mere faction fighting and for that matter we don't have an explanation as to exactly what were the causes of this fighting expect for the version of the applicant who was, he himself, involved in the conflict personally.

So that being the case, Chairperson, I would say that in the circumstances the probability is that there was in fact really a fight between the ANC and whatever, if it was not IFP. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Panday, have you got anything else you want to add?

MR PANDAY: No Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that concludes the proceedings. The Panel will have to consider all of the evidence and the arguments that were addressed to us carefully in order to come to a decision on the application before us. Under those circumstances we will take time to consider the matter, we will reserve our decision and once that is available which we will try to do as soon as the circumstances allow us given the other demands the resources of the Panel and our Committee and we will then notify the parties as to the outcome of the application. So in the circumstances the decision will be reserved.

We extend our thanks to Mr Panday and Mr Sibeko and Mr Mapoma for your assistance and for all of the interested parties who have contributed towards this matter and towards trying to come to an understanding as to what was actually taking place at this particular stage at this particular place.

It concludes the sitting of the Committee as well, it takes care of the roll that we had here. Before we adjourn the proceedings also extend our thanks to everybody who have assisted us in making it possible to have the hearing here for these past few days in Durban. There's always a lot of effort that goes with having a hearing of this nature taking place and running smoothly as this one has and as they in most instances do we are always aware of the effort that goes with that and we're always grateful for everybody who contributes, to our interpreters, the rest of our staff and the proprietors of this venue for making their venue available to us for use for these purposes and for any members of the public who have come along to listen to the proceedings, that is also an important aspect, part of the process from our point of view. We are always grateful for that. We will now adjourn the proceedings.

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