CHAIRPERSON: We want to start the proceedings. For the record, it is Tuesday the 1st of February 2000. We are continuing with the amnesty applications of S M Ntisana and others. The Panel is constituted as indicated on the record and the appearances are as have been indicated as well.

Mr Dambuza, I believe that you had managed to get in touch with your outstanding clients.

MS DAMBUZA: It is so, Mr Chairman, and they are both ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: They are here and you are able to proceed?

MS DAMBUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next one?

MS DAMBUZA: The next one is Mxutu, applicant number 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Number 3. Yes, thank you.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, I call Hlumelo Mzwane Mkhulu Mxutu to the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Mxutu, just indicate to us if your headset is working, can you hear the interpreters?

MR MXUTU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask you to stand to take the oath. Can you give your full names for the record.

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Ms Dambuza?

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, I would like to indicate that because of the problem of communications with the applicants, no affidavits were prepared for them and therefore I shall just lead them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's in order, we understand the position.

EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mxutu, are you an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of Act 34/95?

MR MXUTU: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And are you applying that this Committee grants you an amnesty?

MR MXUTU: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Which acts are you actually requesting amnesty in respect of?

MR MXUTU: It's that I took part in the group that was planning the coup.

MS DAMBUZA: How did you become involved in this planning of the coup?

MR MXUTU: I was involved in the planning itself.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you employed at the time this happened?

MR MXUTU: I was a soldier in Ncise.

MS DAMBUZA: And what rank were you at the time?

MR MXUTU: I was a Warrant Officer.

MS DAMBUZA: Who approached you to become involved in the coup?

MR MXUTU: It was Mr Mazizi Ntisana.

MS DAMBUZA: And can you relate then to the Committee what happened after Mazizi Ntisana approached you.

MR MXUTU: Mr Ntisana came to me and he told me that Col Duli wanted to see us, it would be myself and him and Mzwamadoda Ntisana.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you then go and see Col Duli?

MR MXUTU: Yes, we went to Col Duli.

MS DAMBUZA: Where did you see him?

MR MXUTU: In Queenstown.

MS DAMBUZA: How did you get there?

MR MXUTU: There was a car from him that took us there.

MS DAMBUZA: What happened when you met Col Duli, what did he say to you?

MR MXUTU: Col Duli said that as we knew that Ms Stella Sigcau's government was overthrown by the soldiers and these soldiers said after six months it would change and then he said that that six months had elapsed, so he wanted us to do what had happened to the previous government. He wanted us to overthrow the military government so that the government can be returned to the people. We agreed.

MS DAMBUZA: Had you in fact been involved in the previous coup when the government of Ms Stella Sigcau was toppled?

MR MXUTU: Yes, I was involved.

MS DAMBUZA: What happened then after you agreed to participate in Col Duli's coup?

MR MXUTU: He told us to tell the soldiers of the special forces that they should be aware of what was going to happen.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes, and what happened then?

MR MXUTU: We indeed went to these soldiers and we told them, told certain soldiers. After that - this coup was supposed to be on the 15th of January, if I still remember well, but a day before we heard that this plan would not succeed so we decided to abort the coup and after that, on the 15th we went to work normally and then the 16th we were arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: And were you actually subsequently convicted and sentenced in respect of this deed?

MR MXUTU: Yes, I was sentenced.

MS DAMBUZA: To how many years?

MR MXUTU: 8 years, 4 years suspended. We served that sentence and then we were released after serving the sentence.

MS DAMBUZA: When were you released?

MR MXUTU: I think it was November or December 1994.

MS DAMBUZA: When Col Duli invited you to take part in this coup, did you foresee that there would be bloodshed or even loss of life?

MR MXUTU: It was not like that, he said that it would be like the previous one, the Ms Stella Sigcau one.

MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying for amnesty in respect of the acts that you've outlined to the Committee just now?

MR MXUTU: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dambuza. Mr Nodada, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: One or two, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mxutu, did Mr Ntisana actually tell you exactly what Col Duli wanted to see you in connection with?

MR MXUTU: No, he did not tell me, he said that we would get all the details from Col Duli.

MR NODADA: Did you ask him any questions when he first approached you? - that is Ntisana.

MR MXUTU: I asked him and then he said that he did not know why we were needed, but he said that because we were working for Col Duli before, maybe he wanted us to do something for him.

MR NODADA: And at that time you knew that Col Duli had just been released from detention in Port Elizabeth, isn't it so?

MR MXUTU: Yes, I knew.

MR NODADA: Right. Did you actually meet him in Queenstown or at Stutterheim?

MR MXUTU: In Queenstown.

MR NODADA: Did he actually give you the details of the modus operandi that was planned for the coup?

MR MXUTU: No, he did not give us details, he just said that on the 15th we had to wait for him, he would arrive.

MR NODADA: And was that the only meeting that you had with him before the 15th of January?

MR MXUTU: Yes, that was the only meeting whereby I was present.

MR NODADA: Are you aware of any other subsequent meetings that were held with him before the 15th?

MR MXUTU: There's only meeting I know, it was with him, Ntisana and Bongolani Ndamase.

MR NODADA: And you knew that when the coup was actually implemented, the soldiers that would be involved would be armed in order to overcome the opposition which was also made up of soldiers?

MR MXUTU: The way it was said there was not going to be any bloodshed, that's what I knew, as it happened with the previous coup. Because he said that most of the senior soldiers knew about it.

MR NODADA: And when you actually met Col Duli in Queenstown, did you ask him how the whole thing was going to be implemented?

MR MXUTU: I didn't ask him that way, we were just asking him how he's going to do this. He said that we must go and tell the soldiers of the special forces because they were not aware of this, so that there could not be any conflict. He said that the officers in Ncise were aware of this, so we must not be afraid or scared of anything.

MR NODADA: And what role were you going to play in this coup, you personally?

MR MXUTU: As I was his secretary before, I was going to be the one who was going to take the documents that were there.

MR NODADA: I see. Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan, have you got any questions?

MR MALAN: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just one, Chairperson.

When you met with Mr Duli in Queenstown, how many were you in that meeting?

MR MXUTU: There were five of us.

MR MAPOMA: Would you could who you were?

MR MXUTU: It was myself, Hhlumelo, Mzwamadoda Ntisana, Bongolani Ndamase, Zandisile Bongweni and Col Craig Duli.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Mr Mazizi Ntisana?

MR MXUTU: He went with another car and then he came back and told us what he told us.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Has the Panel got any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: You said "he told us what he told us", what did he say? What did Mazizi tell you?

MR MXUTU: Can you please repeat your question, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: You said Mazizi went into another car and then thereafter he came back and "told us", I want to hear from you what did he say.

MR MXUTU: It was Col Craig Duli who was speaking to us, Mazizi Ntisana was not in that meeting, he was in another car. It was Col Duli who told us what he had told us.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Dambuza, any re-examination?

MS DAMBUZA: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Mxutu, you are excused, thank you.

MR MXUTU: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairperson, I now call Zandisile Edwin Bongweni to the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bongweni, just indicate to us if your headset is working. Do you hear the interpreters?

MR BONGWENI: I can hear, but no properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright we'll assist you. Will you please stand to take the oath. Are you full names Zandisile Edwin Bongweni?

ZANDISILE EDWIN BONGWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Ms Dambuza.

EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Bongweni, are you an applicant in terms of Section 18 and 20 of Act 34/95?

MR BONGWENI: That is correct, Ma'am.

MS DAMBUZA: Which acts are you actually applying for amnesty in respect of?

MR BONGWENI: It is because I was involved in the group that planned the coup.

MS DAMBUZA: Who approached you to be involved in this planned coup?

MR BONGWENI: Bongolani Ndamase.

MS DAMBUZA: What did he say to you, Bongolani Ndamase?

MR BONGWENI: He said that Col Duli wanted to see me.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you know Col Craig Duli before Ndamase approached you?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, we were working together.

MS DAMBUZA: When Bongolani Ndamase approached you as you have said, what were you employed as?

MR BONGWENI: I was training the soldiers that were attending the military school.

MS DAMBUZA: And where exactly were you stationed?

MR BONGWENI: In Ncise.

MS DAMBUZA: And what was your rank?

MR BONGWENI: I was a Sergeant-Major.

MS DAMBUZA: Did Bongolani Ndamase tell you what Col Duli wanted to see you about?

MR BONGWENI: No, he did not tell me.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you go then and see Col Duli as requested?

MR BONGWENI: Yes.

MS DAMBUZA: How did you get there?

MR BONGWENI: Ndamase was driving a car, he took me with him and then we met Mxutu and Zwamadoda Ntisana and Mazizi. We all drove to Queenstown and we met with him in Queenstown, that is Col Duli.

MS DAMBUZA: What did Col Duli tell you when you met him?

MR BONGWENI: Col Duli said that he wanted to see us because as we knew that the government said that it would hand over to the people's government, but that didn't happen yet, so he said that he had already met with other soldiers so we had to overthrow Mr Holomisa's government.

MS DAMBUZA: And what was your response?

MR BONGWENI: We said that we had wanted that to happen because Gen Holomisa had promised that the government would be returned to the people.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you involved in the pervious coup when the government of Ms Stella Sigcau was toppled?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, I was involved.

MS DAMBUZA: What happened then after you agreed to be involved in the coup?

MR BONGWENI: He told us that we must go to Port St Johns and inform the soldiers there, so that they can be aware of what was going to happen. He said that he had already told the officers in Post St Johns, but the other soldiers were not aware of what was going to happen.

MS DAMBUZA: And did you go and tell them as instructed?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, we told them as we were instructed.

MS DAMBUZA: Did the coup in fact take place?

MR BONGWENI: No, it didn't take place because when we came back from Port St Johns, when we arrived here in Umtata the day before the planned coup, we were told that we had to abandon the plan and then on the following day when we were going to work we were then arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: And were you subsequently convicted and sentenced in respect of this deed?

MR BONGWENI: Can you please repeat the question.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you then after your arrest, subsequently convicted and sentenced for your actions?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, I was convicted and sentenced to 8 years, 4 years suspended.

MS DAMBUZA: How many years did you serve and when were you released?

MR BONGWENI: I served four years and I was released in 1994, end of November 1994.

MS DAMBUZA: When you met Col Duli in Queenstown, was Mr Mxutu in the same meeting?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And what part were you going to play, you yourself, in the intended coup?

MR BONGWENI: I was going to talk with the soldiers, inform them about what was going to happen, so that there could be no conflict.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you foresee any bloodshed or even loss of life when you were planning this coup?

MR BONGWENI: No, there was nothing like that because Col Duli said that he had informed all the officers, they were aware of what was going to happen.

MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying that the Committee grants you amnesty for your acts as you've just outlined?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, I would like the Committee to give me amnesty for my actions.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Mr Nodada, questions?

MR NODADA: Mr Bongweni, by the way where were you based as a solider at the time?

MR BONGWENI: At Ncise.

MR NODADA: And how were you going to inform the members of the special forces at Port St Johns about this intended coup?

MR BONGWENI: We would meet with them in Port St Johns and tell them, those that were the same level of ranks with us, that Col Duli had told us to inform them, as we indeed did so, we told them.

MR NODADA: Did he tell you how you should actually go about telling them, namely whether you should call a meeting of all of them and announce this, or how did he say you must actually inform them?

MR BONGWENI: He told us that we should meet with some few members that were in the same ranks as ourselves and tell them.

MR NODADA: Did he give you the assurance that most of the soldiers were in favour of the coup that he was planning?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, that is correct, he gave is the assurance.

MR NODADA: You have said in your evidence you did not expect that there would be bloodshed, why did you not expect it if it was going to be as planned by Col Duli?

MR BONGWENI: It is because he said that he had met with the soldiers, they were aware of what was going to happen, so there was not going to be any conflict.

MR NODADA: What did he say about these senior officers, that is senior members of the TDF?

MR BONGWENI: He said that he had already met with all of the senior members of the TDF, they were aware of this and they were supporting him.

MR NODADA: Did you believe that personally?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, I believe that because there was nothing that could make me not to believe it.

MR NODADA: Did you also share the feeling that the military council that was ruling at the time should be overthrown?

MR BONGWENI: Yes, I also shared that feeling because I thought that it would be better if the government was ruled by the civilians.

MR NODADA: And you know now what actually happened, how the whole coup was carried out and when it was actually stage in November later that year.

MR BONGWENI: No, I don't know how it happened.

MR NODADA: Now do you consider yourself responsible directly or indirectly, for the loss of life as well as the loss of limb that was occasioned by the aborted coup of 22 November 1990?

MR BONGWENI: No, because I was already in jail at the time.

MR NODADA: So you do not consider yourself responsible for that?

MR BONGWENI: ...(no English interpretation)

MR NODADA: You do not consider yourself responsible for that ultimate ...(intervention)

MR BONGWENI: No, no, because I was not there, I was not involved.

MR NODADA: Now why are you applying for amnesty, what do you want to be pardoned for?

MR BONGWENI: Because I was sentenced and I have a criminal record, so I would like that to be removed because I cannot even get employment, I can't do anything.

MR NODADA: Why must it be removed, why do you want it removed?

MR BONGWENI: Because I was involved in the group that was planning this coup.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: I've got no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel? Have you got any re-examination?

MS DAMBUZA: None Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for your applicants?

MS DAMBUZA: That is the case for my applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Bongweni, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nodada, do you intend to call some witnesses?

MR NODADA: Yes, Mr Chairman. That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you need to make some logistical arrangements for them?

MR NODADA: Yes, precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see if we can. Are you able to proceed with them?

MR NODADA: I'll start with the one next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let's set the thing up quickly.

MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm calling Themba Pokwana, who is going to testify as one of the victims of this aborted coup on 22 November 1990. May he be sworn in please.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Nodada. Mr Pokwana, just indicate to us if your headset is working, whether you can hear the interpreters talking to you.

MR POKWANA: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: You must please stand to take the oath. Are your full names Themba Pokwana?

THEMBA POKWANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Nodada.

EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Themba, during 1990, were you a member of the Transkei Defence Force?

MR POKWANA: In 1990 I was a recruit in Ncise.

MR NODADA: A recruit in the Transkei Defence Force?

MR POKWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: And you were based at Ncise, where you were undergoing your initial training.

MR POKWANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: Right. Were you present at the camp where you were accommodated on the night of 21 November 1990?

MR POKWANA: Yes, I was present.

MR NODADA: I want you to cast you memories back to the events of that evening and actually give a full account of what you experienced on that night.

MR POKWANA: What happened is on the 21st until the 22nd of November 1990, we were sleeping as the recruits. At about 3 o'clock in the morning we heard some noise outside. After hearing that noise out side some of us woke up because we were staying there in the camp, in the bungalows.

MR NODADA: Just slow down a bit. Carry on.

MR POKWANA: After that almost all of us woke up, we heard outside that there was noises of some gunshots.

MR NODADA: What noise - oh gunshots. Was that the only noise that you heard outside, gunshots being fired?

MR POKWANA: Yes, at first it was only the gunshots.

MR NODADA: And what was your immediate reaction when you heard those gunshots?

MR POKWANA: As we were sleeping we woke up and we dressed up.

MR NODADA: Were you all sleeping in the same sort of a dormitory or how were you sleeping? Were you in different rooms?

MR POKWANA: Some of us were sleeping in a bungalow like a dormitory.

MR NODADA: And others?

MR POKWANA: Others were in other houses, others were in the tents.

MR NODADA: But you were within the same premises, all of you.

MR POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: Alright, carry on.

MR POKWANA: After getting dressed I saw a man by the name of Kwele, he had blood on his face.

MR NODADA: Were the lights on inside when you woke up?

MR POKWANA: Yes, because we had already woken up, all of us.

MR NODADA: So this man by the name of Kwele, was he entering the bungalow in which you were gathered after you had woken up?

MR POKWANA: Yes, he was entering the bungalow that I was in.

MR NODADA: Yes, continue.

MR POKWANA: He went in and he was bleeding heavily in his face. When I stood up, next to me was Mr Peter, the deceased Mr Peter. He was still alive at the time. And when I was standing up I could hear that there were some movements and it was at that the time when the bomb was thrown inside the bungalow. I then got injured that way.

MR NODADA: Were you armed as you were sleeping in the bungalow?

MR POKWANA: No, we had nothing, we were not armed.

MR NODADA: After you had been injured, were you able to see what followed after the event?

MR POKWANA: Because it was still dark, at about three or four when this bomb was thrown inside, the lights went off. After that I didn't know what happened.

MR NODADA: Were you unconscious or was it just dark?

MR POKWANA: After being injured I became unconscious.

MR NODADA: And when did you regain consciousness and where were you?

MR POKWANA: I became conscious and I was still in the bungalow, at about 6 a.m. on the 22nd.

MR NODADA: And what part of your body was injured?

MR POKWANA: In the head, face and in my body and both legs.

MR NODADA: What did you see when you regained consciousness at about 6 o'clock?

MR POKWANA: When I regained consciousness I saw Mr Peter and he was sleeping where he was sleeping and the deceased Mr Gungu too, the people that I was staying with in the bungalow and they were dead.

MR NODADA: And were there any casualties that you saw in the same vicinity, other than the two dead persons?

MR POKWANA: Yes, I also saw Nomganga, I saw the man behind me, Nombida and the others that were also in that bungalow and Mr Mogoduga who is not there now. They were all injured.

MR NODADA: And what was happening at that time?

MR POKWANA: At that time it was noise outside, I think it was when these people that were with Col Duli were arriving. I don't know what was happening outside because I was inside, it was just noises outside.

MR NODADA: What sort of noise was that, was it human noise or noise of fired guns or bombing, what noise was it? - as you could make out.

MR POKWANA: It was gunshots and people's voices, they were calling others.

MR NODADA: Yes, and then after that what happened?

MR POKWANA: After that at about seven or after 7 o'clock, soldiers came that were trying to help us, those that were working in that recruit camp.

MR NODADA: Did they take you to hospital?

MR POKWANA: Yes, they took us out outside and when we were outside we were supposed to be taken by an ambulance and then we realised that the group that was with Col Duli had arrived and then these people that were going to help us, they ran away trying to save their lives and they left us outside.

MR NODADA: And these people that you say were coming with Craig Duli, that you saw when you got outside, what were they doing? - as far as you could make out.

MR POKWANA: As I was already injured and I was outside, I could only see people that were going to the other camp known as 1TBM.

MR NODADA: Were you sitting - I mean, how did the soldiers who were helping, leave you outside, did they just leave you on the ground or where were you left?

MR POKWANA: They took us out of the bungalow, we were wrapped in blankets, so they left us like that. The reason why they decided to leave us is because another bomb was thrown when they were busy taking us outside, so they ran away.

MR NODADA: Was it thrown at the place where you were left, or inside some building?

MR POKWANA: This bomb was thrown in the road, because there was a road in-between, so they put us on the side where the tents were.

MR NODADA: So you were not affected by that bomb?

MR POKWANA: Yes, I was not affected.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Nodada.

Was it a bomb or a handgrenade, or don't you know?

MR POKWANA: It was a mortar bomb, not a handgrenade.

JUDGE MILLER: On both occasions, the one that was thrown into the bungalow and also the one when you were being carried out?

MR POKWANA: Yes, they were both mortar bombs.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Nodada.

MR NODADA: Thank you.

Did that one explode, the last one that you have just mentioned?

MR POKWANA: Yes, it exploded and its shrapnel went to the sides of the bungalows, not on our side.

MR NODADA: So nobody was injured as far as you know, as a result of that?

MR POKWANA: I can't remember well because I was on the other side with others that were injured, so I don't know about the people that were in the bungalows because there were a lot of bungalows there.

MR NODADA: You have described these people that you saw outside, those that caused the group that was helping you, as Duli group, did you know that they were Duli group at that time, or you were just confused?

MR POKWANA: Because of the uniform they had it was clear that it was not the soldiers that were working with us, it was clear that they were the attackers.

MR NODADA: Were they dressed in combat uniform, or how were they dressed?

MR POKWANA: Those that I saw were wearing coco-brown, not the Transkeian Defence Force uniform.

MR NODADA: This coco-brown uniform, did you recognise it to be belonging to any military group or liberation army? How did you understand this coco-brown uniform?

MR POKWANA: It was being used by the SADF.

MR NODADA: So in short you saw people who were dressed in the South African Defence Force uniform?

MR POKWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Did you recognise anyone of them at that stage?

MR POKWANA: No, I didn't recognise anyone.

MR NODADA: Alright. Now you saw them going up to the other camps and then, carry on and tell us what you saw.

MR POKWANA: After that as we were being left there and the soldiers ran away after this second bomb had exploded, I noticed some people like Mr Mlandeli, a deceased, and Mr Mzweni, they were already dead. And after some time the soldiers came back, they took me to the military hospital.

MR NODADA: And did you ever see those soldiers who were dressed in the SADF uniform, after you had seen them going up in the direction you've indicated?

MR POKWANA: No, I didn't see them after that.

MR NODADA: And then you landed in hospital?

MR POKWANA: Yes, I was taken to the hospital.

MR NODADA: And while you were in hospital did you see anything else that apparently was connected with those acts?

MR POKWANA: No, I did not see anything.

MR NODADA: And for how long did you remain in hospital?

MR POKWANA: I remained there in the morning and I was taken at about three and I was transferred to the general hospital here in Umtata.

MR NODADA: On the same day, that is 22 November?

MR POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: And when did you first hear that these were soldiers, or these were persons who were aiding Col Duli to overthrow the military council government?

MR POKWANA: As I've already indicated, as we heard those bombs and there was a person who was speaking in a loudspeaker saying that he was Col Duli and he was back.

MR NODADA: Yes, and then after you had been discharged from the hospital, did you go back to the base where you were being trained as a recruit?

MR POKWANA: Yes, I went back to the base where I was being trained.

MR NODADA: Are you now still working as a soldier?

MR POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: What is your rank now?

MR POKWANA: I'm a Corporal.

MR NODADA: Where are you based now?

MR POKWANA: At Ncise, 14 ...(indistinct).

MR NODADA: Right. Did you get any compensation for the injuries that you sustained?

MR POKWANA: No, I didn't get any compensation.

MR NODADA: I've no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Nodada, just while you're on that point, I don't know if you've done it already but it would be appreciated if you could give a list of the victims that you are representing to Mr Mapoma.

MR NODADA: I'll do that.

JUDGE MILLER: Because we as a Committee, in the event of any amnesty being granted or in the event of a gross violation, are bound to refer the victims through to the Committee on Reparations and Rehabilitation and having a list also enabling that Committee to be able to track down and trace the victims would be appreciated.

MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You're through?

MR NODADA: I'm through.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just before we go to you, Mr Malan, can I just ask the members of the public not to read their magazines and their newspapers in the venue please. We are busy with serious matters here and it's inappropriate. If you're not interested in the proceedings, it's inappropriate to come here to sit and read your magazines, obviously not interested in what is going on. So please let's get your cooperation in that regard.

Yes, Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: From the Panel?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just very briefly.

Mr Pokwana, do you know how many people died in that attack on the base at Ncise? - that morning.

MR POKWANA: The people that I saw that morning that died were four.

JUDGE MILLER: And you say they were mortar bombs, the first one that came into the bungalow, did it come through the roof or the wall or through the door? How did it get into the bungalow?

MR POKWANA: Through the roof.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication as to how many people got injured in the attack? Four died.

MR POKWANA: If I still remember well, I think it was 33 who got injured.

CHAIRPERSON: And four died?

MR POKWANA: Those that I can still remember were four.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Nodada, any re-examination?

MR NODADA: I've no re-examination, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I will now proceed and call the second victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Mr Pokwana, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: What are his names, Mr Nodada?

MR NODADA: He's Zolo Nodeta.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give the surname again.

MR NODADA: Nombida, N-o-m-b-i-d-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Nombida. Thank you.

Mr Nombida, just indicate to us if your headset is working, if you can hear the interpreters.

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath. Are your names Zola Nombida.

ZOLA NOMBIDA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Yes, Mr Nodada.

EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Zola, what are you doing for a living now?

MR NOMBIDA: I'm a soldier, Air Force in Pretoria.

MR NODADA: And were you a member of the Transkei Defence Force in 1990?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I was a member of the Transkei Defence Force in 1990, I was a recruit.

MR NODADA: Were you in the same group as the last witness, Mr Pokwana?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Were you in the same camp on the night or early morning of the 22nd of November 1990?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I was in the same camp, we were in the same bungalow with Mr Pokwana.

MR NODADA: Yes. What happened as far as you can remember?

MR NOMBIDA: In the morning, 22nd November 1990, round about 3 o'clock, early in the morning we heard gunshots outside and immediately after that we put the lights on and then we dressed up.

MR NODADA: Did you all wake up?

MR NOMBIDA: Not all of us at the same time, some of use woke up and then some were dressing up because that was a big bungalow, there was more than 80 of us, but most of us had already woken up at the time.

MR NODADA: Yes, you woke after hearing gunfires outside, and then what happened?

MR NOMBIDA: After that Mr Kwele went in and his fact was full of blood, he was bleeding, we then asked what was happening, he then went to the other side of the bungalow, he went straight to the other side. We asked one another what was happening, his face was full of blood.

MR NODADA: Did he tell you what was happening?

MR NOMBIDA: He just said that there was shooting outside.

MR NODADA: Had he been sleeping in the same bungalow as you and Pokwana?

MR NOMBIDA: No, he was not in that bungalow, he was sleeping in the tent because we were sleeping according to the different companies. We were in D company and he was in E company on the site of the tents.

MR NODADA: Yes, and then what happened afterwards?

MR NOMBIDA: What happened after Mr Kwele went in, we heard that there was shooting going on outside. Immediately after that this mortar bomb from the roof exploded.

MR NODADA: Yes, and what happened, did you get injured?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I got injured. There was noise going on and the cries in the bungalow. We were injured and there was confusion all over. I was also injured.

MR NODADA: Yes, were you able to see anything immediately after you had been injured?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I was able to see everything that was happening because I was not unconscious, I was hit here on the waist and on my leg, so I was able to see what was happening because I was just shocked but I didn't become unconscious.

MR NODADA: Now did you also hear some voices after the bomb?

MR NOMBIDA: I heard the voices when the soldiers came, those that saved us from the bungalow, those that took us outside. And they took us to a place outside, we were covered with blankets. From there another bomb, the second one, a mortar bomb exploded and those people that were helping us said that those who can manage to run away must run away and they left us there. I managed to crawl and go to another tent, trying to hide away from what was happening. I was with another young man, Nomganga. We went inside that tent, hiding.

MR NODADA: Just try and slow down.

MR NOMBIDA: It is where I heard voices when I was in that tent.

MR NODADA: Yes, what voices were those?

MR NOMBIDA: I heard somebody speaking from a loudspeaker outside saying that he was Col Duli, he said that we must stand in a queue in the camp.

MR NODADA: Did you see any other soldiers who were not injured, outside at that stage?

MR NOMBIDA: Those who were able to run away, they managed to run away but others were taken to the hospitals with the ambulance, those that were injured.

MR NODADA: Yes. In other words, there was just a chaos that you witnessed outside.

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Alright, that continued until what happened?

MR NOMBIDA: After hiding in that tent we heard rifles outside and the mortar bombs continued. What I could recognise is that in that cover I was injured when I was going there and there were people that were wearing coco-brown uniforms. They were next to the fence in our camp, those were the people that I recognised.

MR NODADA: Were there any moving motor vehicles or trucks in that area at the time?

MR NOMBIDA: No, those people were standing next to the fence, seemingly it was clear that they are the ones that were shooting in the camp because they were wearing coco-brown uniforms and in the Transkei Defence Force we were not using coco-brown uniforms at the time.

MR NODADA: Did you also know that uniform to be the South African Defence Force uniform?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I knew that it was the South African Defence Force uniform.

MR NODADA: Yes, and then? Carry on.

MR NOMBIDA: Whilst I was still in the tent there was chaos outside and I could hear the person who was speaking and it was going towards the morning and the soldiers that were going to save us, they came and we were in the tent, they went inside the tent. They were the ones who organised transport for us to take us to the hospital.

At that time there was no ambulance, they took me with a motor vehicle that belonged to a bakery and took me to the junction. When I arrived at the junction I was taken to another car that was driven by the deceased Sgt-Maj Boni. I was taken by that car and then I was escorted by two people, they took me to the general hospital.

MR NODADA: You are describing Sgt-Maj Boni as deceased, did he also die on the same day?

MR NOMBIDA: No, didn't die on that day, he died afterwards due to some illness, after the coup.

MR NODADA: How many persons did you see dead on that morning, before you landed in hospital?

MR NOMBIDA: Three of them died in that bungalow, Mr Cgonguto, Olyai and Peter. Three of them died in that bungalow, two died in the tents, Mr Zweli and Mr Mlangeni.

MR NODADA: And in hospital were there any of those that were injured that died?

MR NOMBIDA: No, nobody died in hospital, but most of us were taken to the intensive care unit.

MR NODADA: Yes. What part of your body was injured?

MR NOMBIDA: My waist and my right leg and my left side.

MR NODADA: Were you shot or were you injured as a result of the bomb that was thrown into the bungalow?

MR NOMBIDA: I was injured due to the bomb that was thrown in the bungalow.

MR NODADA: Alright. And you subsequently learnt that that was Craig Duli's group that was attempting to stage a coup d'état to take over the government of this place from the military council, is that so?

MR NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct, and that was also confirmed when I was in the intensive care unit. When Gen Matanzima arrived, he gave us the information, he told us what was happening. He said that Mr Duli had staged a coup.

MR NODADA: Apart from you soldiers that were based at Ncise camp, did you see any other persons who did not belong to the TDF, that were killed or injured in the same area?

MR NOMBIDA: According to me I don't know anything of that sort because I only know the recruits that died and then I was taken to the hospital.

MR NODADA: Did you know that there was going to be an attack that evening, or that morning?

MR NOMBIDA: No, I didn't know anything.

MR NODADA: Did you know that Col Duli was planning to overthrow the military government during the year 1990?

MR NOMBIDA: No, I didn't know anything at all.

MR NODADA: Have you received any compensation for the injuries that you sustained, Sir?

MR NOMBIDA: No, we didn't get anything.

MR NODADA: What is your rank now as a member of the SANDF in the ...(indistinct)

MR NOMBIDA: I'm a Corporal.

MR NODADA: Is there anything else that you'd like to inform this Committee about?

MR NOMBIDA: What I can say to this Committee is that as we sustained injuries there it is very difficult to advance ourselves in the military and some of us left the military because they were injured. Even myself, it is very difficult for me to do certain courses because they require physical training, but because I was injured I am unable to do that. That is what I can say to this Committee.

MR NODADA: That is all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: I've got no questions to pose, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: No questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: Were there any people from Duli's group who were injured?

MR NOMBIDA: I don't know because when Gen Matanzima came to us he didn't say what happened, he just told us what was happening there, that there was a coup, that's all.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were taken to hospital, did the attackers stop attacking you?

MR NOMBIDA: At that time they were still attacking, that is why Sgt-Maj Boni handed me over to two people to escort me, two soldiers to escort me to hospital.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nodada, have you got any re-examination?

MR NODADA: No re-examination, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nombida, thank you, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence that you wish to present on behalf of the victims?

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I would like to call just one of the widows who would like to say something to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What are her names?

MR NODADA: The names are Nosisi Kahla.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell the surname?

MR NODADA: K-a-h-l-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mrs Kahla, good morning. Just indicate to us if you can hear the interpreters on your headset.

MS KAHLA: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: It's working, good. Will you please stand to take the oath. Your full names Nosisi Kahla?

NOSISI KAHLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sit down. Yes, Mr Nodada.

EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Nosisi, are you the widow of Nedisi Atwell Kahla?

MS KAHLA: Mlungisi Atwell Kahla.

MR NODADA: Was he employed by the Transkei Defence Force?

MS KAHLA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: And is it correct that he died on the same day, that is the morning of the 22nd of November 1990?

MS KAHLA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Where was he based during his lifetime?

MS KAHLA: He was in Ncise camp as the instructor for the recruits.

MR NODADA: And what was his rank, if you know?

MS KAHLA: He was a Sergeant-Major.

MR NODADA: And where were you working at the time, if you were employed?

MS KAHLA: I was working for Telkom as a telephonist.

MR NODADA: And was he living outside the camp or was he residing at the camp, that is your husband?

MS KAHLA: Sometimes he would be inside the camp as a training officer for the recruits, but on that particular night he was in the camp.

MR NODADA: In the camp. And what did you hear on the 22nd of November and where were you?

MS KAHLA: I was at work at the post office that night, I was on duty.

MR NODADA: You were doing night-duty?

MS KAHLA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Just tell us how you got to know that your husband had died.

MS KAHLA: On that particular night, on the morning of the 22nd, we left our workplace, some technicians came and they realised that something was going on in the camp at about 3a.m. We were requested and the other people were requested to come and assist because the people inside at work were not supposed to go out, we help in communications.

I continued on duty up until 11 and 12a.m. because people were not allowed to come in and those who were inside were not allowed to go out.

MR NODADA: Yes, carry on.

MS KAHLA: We were later released at about one. I was residing next to Chatham. In fact on that particular morning I asked the other soldiers who were going to the camp to go and check out for Mlungisi. No-one came back to me to tell me what was happening until such time that I had to go home.

After that I decided to go out to check up on him because he was at work on that particular night, but I did not get a clue of what was happening. And I called Mr Derek Mgwebi, Mr Mgwebi told me to stay in the house, he was going to check what was happening and then I also called Brig Matanzima, he told me that he would come back to me but he requested me to remain in the house, they would come and fetch me because Mlungisi was injured.

I waited until the following day but no-one came. I phoned my brother, the deceased DM and I told him that no-one came back to me to tell me what was happening to Mlungisi and I asked him to accompany me to the camp. When we got to the road junction there were roadblocks, we could not get into the camp in time but eventually we managed to get inside. I went to his office that was called "Skollie", I met with the late Andile Mncwazi, he told me that Mlungisi was injured, but he did not tell me that he had died.

When we left him all the people who knew me they did not even want to look at me. Rev Lila came and asked me where I was going and I told him that I was looking for Mlungisi, I wanted to know what was happening because when we went to the hospital to see the casualties we were refused. Rev Lila told me to go to Lebode to go and fetch my mother because Mlungisi was injured. He told us that we could not go to the hospital without an elderly person. Mr Lila told my mother that Mlungisi was injured and he died in the process. That's how I know the story.

MR NODADA: And how many children did you have at the time of his death?

MS KAHLA: Two children, two daughters. The first-born was four years old and the last-born was one year old.

MR NODADA: And since his death have you perhaps received any form of compensation for the loss of maintenance and support as he was the breadwinner in your house?

MS KAHLA: Yes, I am receiving a widow's fund plus what is called Workmen's Compensation.

MR NODADA: Is there anything else that you would like to tell this Committee? Is there anything else that you'd like to add to what you've already said?

MS KAHLA: Not at the moment.

MR NODADA: Nothing. Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all I wanted to lead from this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nodada. Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Chairman, on behalf of both my clients and myself we would like to offer our sincere condolences to her, but we've got no questions, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that is noted. Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel? Have you got anything further, Mr Nodada?

MR NODADA: No further evidence, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Kahla, thank you, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I assume that you don't have any witnesses that you intend calling.

MR MAPOMA: No witnesses Chairperson, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan, are you in a position to address us on the merits of the applications of your clients?

MR MALAN IN ARGUMENT: I am indeed, Mr Chairman. Can I continue?

Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, at the start of the proceedings yesterday I didn't feel at liberty to disclose some of the views, due to the fact that I felt it might prejudice my clients' applications. Now at the conclusion and after tendering evidence under oath, it is my conviction by making a simple and clinical analysis of the facts, that both of my clients, both applications of my clients don't fall within the ambit of Act 34/95.

It is one of the prerequisites that an applicant must have committed a crime and acknowledge it, and throughout their evidence they persisted that they didn't commit a crime and they were merely executing their duties and I respect the fact that they played open cards with the Committee in this regard. If there was a great miscarriage of justice in the criminal matter, it is not for this Committee, with respect, to rectify the omissions in the defence by means of this forum.

It was as early as our first consultation that I informed them of my opinion that they will not qualify for amnesty due to this fact. If I'm wrong that's another story, I do not want to underestimate the powers and the discretion of this Committee to overrule my humble opinion, but I have already informed them yesterday of my opinion and I think they accept it in that way that I've explained it to them. That is still my opinion at this point in time. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan, for your frank submissions. Ms Dambuza, have you got any submissions before I go to Mr Nodada to respond.

MS DAMBUZA: Just a few, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS DAMBUZA IN ARGUMENT: It is my humble submission that all four of my clients do fall within the ambit of the Act, Act 34/95, in that they have all admitted to having committed a crime. In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he has admitted that he did take part in the planning of the coup. In respect of the other three, Mzwamadoda Ntisana, Mxutu and Bongweni, they have also admitted that they were involved in the planning of the coup which did not take place.

CHAIRPERSON: So in your case we're just talking about the January aborted coup.

JUDGE MILLER: Except for the one.

MS DAMBUZA: Except for the one. In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he was involved in the coup of the 22nd of November 1990. That is applicant number 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so does his application relate to both the abortive coup and the unsuccessful coup?

MS DAMBUZA: His application Mr Chairman, relates to the coup of the 22nd November 1990, because we do not have any evidence of his involvement in - oh I'm sorry, it is in respect of both the coup that did not take place in January and the coup of 1990, November.

CHAIRPERSON: And the actual one.

MS DAMBUZA: And the actual one that aborted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS DAMBUZA: He does admit having taken - having been involved in both instances.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the other three it only relates to the January conspiracy.

MS DAMBUZA: In respect of the January - exactly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR SIBANYONI: May you respond to this question. Would you say your client, Mazizi Ntisana has made a full disclosure in respect of this coup of the 22nd of November? We hear that the soldiers were wearing some SADF uniforms, we also hear that some mortar bombs were used, but insofar as the evidence he's given us, he didn't disclose any of those details.

MS DAMBUZA: The evidence that he has given is to the effect that he was not aware that there was going to be any arms, he did not see any arms and he was of the view or believed that the coup would be bloodless.

Mr Chairman, there is an indication that he subsequently became aware of what was said, that the South African Government was involved in aiding Col Duli. However, my submission would be that that could only be regarded as hearsay because he did not have firsthand knowledge of that. He has said repeatedly that Col Duli did not, apparently on hindsight, disclose everything to him. It is my submission that in the circumstances he has disclosed all what he personally knew or what he was told by Col Duli.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, just remind me now Ms Dambuza, he testified about two legs of this operation, now just help me, is this in respect of the November coup? He was talking about Operation Sacrifice and Operation Dawn, I'm not sure which one of the two he fitted into but I formed the impression that what he said was he was to really feature actively only in the subsequent leg of the coup, which seems to me to have more been after the actual takeover, the physical takeover of power he would come in, on the second leg of the operation. Now do I understand this correctly or what?

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly Mr Chairman, that is exactly what Mazizi Ntisana says. He says the first part it was going to be exclusively Col Duli and the other soldiers, he would only take part after he had received a signal from Col Duli that everything was okay and then he would then perform his part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. He was travelling with his Lesotho people, was he?

MS DAMBUZA: He was travelling with the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the road and then they lost contact with Mr Duli and then returned.

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, Mr Chairman. And therefore they could not proceed to perform what was supposed to be his part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you. Have you got other submissions?

MS DAMBUZA: Save, Mr Chairman, to indicate that all applicants have been punished in the sense that they have served sentences, they did undergo the process of prosecution and serve sentences, and it is my submission that they sort of paid for the part they took in the coup.

In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he has indicated that he regrets the loss of life which eventually occurred and on behalf of him I would like to again echo this sentiment. In respect of the other three applicants, they also served their sentences and the coup that was intended did not take place. I think those are the only submissions I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Chairperson.

What would you say on - what would your submissions on proportionality be, they attack people who were asleep, unarmed.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, it is a bit difficult to say in the sense that the evidence of Mazizi Ntisana, applicant number 5, is that he was really not aware of what would actually take place in the stage one of the coup and therefore one is loathe to speculate on what his actions would have been if he had known the extent to which the military operation would go. He has repeatedly said he was acting under the conviction that Col Duli and his soldiers would be able to carry this out without bloodshed or loss of life as this had happened before when they were involved in the coup of Ms Sigcau's government.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my colleague just reminds me now, what was he convicted of?

MS DAMBUZA: He was convicted of treason. I think ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, I think he was in the Supreme Court trial, yes.

MS DAMBUZA: He was in the Supreme Court trial. JUDGE MILLER: He was convicted of treason, yes.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is in respect of the November one.

MS DAMBUZA: Applicant number 5, that is in respect of the November one.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the other one, was he never charged for his role in the ...

MS DAMBUZA: No, he was never charged for that particular one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: But his involvement in the first one, according to his evidence was he didn't know what was going on because - although he did say later after that, there were some meetings. When he actually took them to see Col Duli, he didn't know why Duli wanted to see them, but I think that after the there were a couple of meetings.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes, he became aware in subsequent meetings, but when he first told him to go and fetch them, he did tell him what he wanted them for.

JUDGE MILLER: Just one other small point, Ms Dambuza, the acts sets out three criteria, you've dealt with two, namely the political objective, I think quite clearly it was political. The second, full disclosure. The third is that the application itself complies with the requirements of the Act, from a technical point of view. Now I don't know if you associate yourself with what Mr Malan put to us earlier, that these application forms were completed in the presence of somebody from the TRC, immediately before the cut-off date and that is why the actual form contains very little information. Because normally one would expect these questions to be answered, but is it the same situation that prevails in relation to your clients, as opposed to Mr Malan's?

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, although I was not yet involved in the case at that stage, yesterday when Mr Malan clarified the situation I did confirm with my clients and they did confirm that it was indeed so and therefore I would align myself with what Mr Malan has submitted.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Dambuza, just in respect of the other three applicants of yours, other than Mr Mazizi Ntisana, what were they convicted of, what was the offence?

MS DAMBUZA: They were convicted of conspiracy to commit treason.

CHAIRPERSON: To commit treason.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All three of them?

MS DAMBUZA: All three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that what they're asking amnesty for?

MS DAMBUZA: That is what they're asking amnesty for, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And does that include Mr Mazizi?

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Mazizi's application goes further to apply for amnesty in respect of the treason conviction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I'm sorry, I didn't make myself quite clear, I'm only limiting myself now to the January planning. So the other three are asking for amnesty in respect of the conspiracy to commit treason and Mr Mazizi is asking for amnesty in respect of treason insofar as the November coup is concerned, and is he also asking for conspiracy to commit treason in respect of the January incident?

MS DAMBUZA: My instructions are not as such Mr Chairman, because he says he was not aware of what was going on and therefore was not involved and he didn't actively take part in that plan of the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not applying for amnesty in respect of the January incident insofar as Mr Mazizi Ntisana is concerned?

MS DAMBUZA: No, I haven't been instructed in that fashion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So the three is in respect of January and Mazizi in respect of November?

MS DAMBUZA: Mazizi in respect of - yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Yes, Mr Nodada, we don't need to hear you in respect of the clients of Mr Malan, if you have any submissions you could focus on the clients of Ms Dambuza.

MR NODADA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Basically, insofar as the other three applicants, that is with the exception of Mazizi Ntisana, I don't seem to be having any problems. But my main problems actually relate to the testimony of Mazizi Ntisana, as regards the full disclosure of the relevant facts that he's required to make.

If one looks at his evidence closely, objectively as well, he wants to create an impression to this Committee that he did not know much about what was going to happen, but if one looks at his affidavit he states clearly that he had several meetings with Col Craig Duli who approached him, apparently immediately after he had been released from prison, he knew him very well, they had known each other since 1975, and he appears to be one of the persons who were aggrieved as a result of the military coup that was led by Col Duli and Bantu Holomisa, which led to the military council government in Transkei, the former Transkei. And his dissatisfaction and grief actually emanates directly from the fact that he was a member of parliament of the civilian government that was led by Stella Sigcau and then he definitely must have involved himself in the planned coup which actually was led by Col Duli in particular, in fact it appears that he was also playing a leading role in the planning of that coup. He gives the impression that although he had so many meetings, not only in Queenstown and East London where he fled and stayed, but also in Johannesburg and perhaps some other places. But despite that, he has not honestly and openly told this Committee about the details of those meetings.

We are told not only through his affidavit but also from his evidence, that he is the one who was actually sent by Col Duli to make contact with the members of the TDF at Port St Johns. He started with his brother, Mzwamadoda Ntisana and also he made contact with other members like Ndamase, Mxutu and others that were based at Port St Johns and at the Ncise base in Umtata. And all that is being disclosed by him is that he just told them that Col Duli wanted to see them. And this is also repeated by the other applicants who state that they were just told that Col Duli wanted to see them, and we are not told as regards exactly the questions that they must have posed. I mean you cannot just be called by a man that you have known to have been in detention and subsequently released through a court order, who definitely must have reached a stage where he developed some misunderstanding with his Chairman, that was Bantu Holomisa at the time, to respond to a call when you owed the allegiance that you had taken as a soldier to the military government which was ruling at the time.

And we also hear that he actually provided transport to Stutterheim, according to him, where the meeting was with Col Duli, but he does not appear to have been involved in the deliberations in that meeting and as regards what Col Duli actually said. He seems to be wanting to take advantage of the fact hat he was a civilian and not a soldier and therefore he could not have taken part in those discussions and he knew nothing that was being said. Yet, he clearly informs this Committee that he was going to be the leader of the second part of the operation, that is Operation Dawn, and he had some tapes that were in his possession. He does not tell us what was contained in those tapes and what was going to be done, save to say that he was going to meet the four paramount chiefs and also four senior chiefs that were going to take over power as soon as the coup was successful.

As regards the discussions that he had with Col Duli before they left East London on the morning of the 21st or rather, on the evening of the 21st when he was to pick up some liberation, the Lesotho Liberation Army members in Queenstown, he just skims over the events that took place. And even as regards the communication, the constant continuous communication that he had over the radio with Col Duli, he wants to give the impression that well really there was nothing really important that was being discussed and yet that was actually the eve of the main event.

He plays the role of - whilst admitting that he was going to be involved immediately after the coup, he wants to give the impression that he knew very, very little and he keeps on telling this Committee that whenever he has to answer a direct question which would actually cause him to disclose any relevant factors, he decides to hide behind the statement that he was dealing with a very clever man. He kept on informing this Committee that Craig Duli was a very, very clever man and he hid most of the information from him.

Now he was a member of parliament, he gives the impression that he was an active politician and was very much interested to have the power returned to the civilian government and yet he involves himself in such a serious act of high treason without exposing himself to know exactly the details and what to foresee and what to expect as to the manner in which this whole coup was going to happen. Like for instance, as regards the involvement of the South African Defence Force he was questioned directly as to whether he knew that the SADF members were involved, he said no, he did not know.

And he was taken further and asked whether even after the event, up to now, he has not heard that the members of the SADF were involved and when he was asked by Mr Mapoma, he denied knowledge of that until he was specifically asked by Judge Miller when he was referred to the involvement of Eugene de Kock, then he started disclosing that he had heard in the media that Eugene de Kock had supplied the arms to the people who were going to stage the coup.

If I may just go back a little bit to the members of the Lesotho Liberation Army. He gives the impression that those people were not armed, but up to the end of his testimony we do not seem to know what their involvement was actually going to be and what role they actually played, except for conveyed in his motor vehicle from Queenstown to Maclear and Tsolo and then back to Maclear and then back to East London. In fact he does not even say where he actually left them.

JUDGE MILLER: I think he said he dropped them in Queenstown, then he ...(intervention)

MR NODADA: In Queenstown. Yes thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MILLER: And he said he didn't see any arms and the one person was elderly, over 70.

MR NODADA: Over 70, yes. And he didn't know their names, but they were members of a liberation army and they came here to play a role, what role did they play? They were in his motor vehicle, they were in his group, they were going to be involved in the coup, what role did they play? That leaves a lot to be desired. And it is my submission that when a person makes such an application, at least - although he's not required to give all the details, the Act requires that he must make a full disclosure of all relevant and material facts that will assist the Committee in coming to a decision whether the application should be granted or not. And I submit that he has failed to do so and it is my submission that in the circumstances I'm of the view that he has not satisfied the requirements of Section 20(1)(b) of the Act, and as such I would not expect his application to be granted in those circumstances.

Insofar as the other applicants, as I've indicated, it would appear that they were soldiers and apparently they were hand-picked. I'm not sure about Ntisana, whether he was hand-picked by his brother or it was the choice of Col Duli, I'm not very sure there, but according to the evidence of Mazizi Ntisana he approached them. And also the evidence of Mzwabantu(?) Ntisana, his brother himself, he was just approached and told that he was wanted by Col Duli, he wanted to see him. The same applies to Mxutu and Bongweni.

And without asking questions, without really wanting to know about what was going to happen, they give the impression that they just got up and went to see Col Duli and when they got there Col Duli told them that he was going to take over and that he had already made contact with his senior officers, they were aware of this and they were ready to assist him, and then they were sent to go to the special forces at Port St Johns just tell them that this is what was going to happen.

And those members, those applicants were members of the TDF and they were employed full-time, like we have heard from Mxutu that they were arrested on the day they were going to work. I also feel that really although their case is not, insofar as I'm concerned, as bad as that of Mazizi Ntisana, there is a lot that they have not disclosed to this Committee and all the attempts have been made to extract the information from them and this unfortunately has been in vain.

I also submit therefore that there is not much that has been presented by these persons, that is the other three applicants, that would make them qualify for the application that they are making. That is all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Mapoma, have you got any submissions, save in respect of the clients of Mr Malan?

MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I just have very few points in respect Mr Mazizi Ntisana's application, as some of the issues Chairperson, have been covered by my learned colleague, Mr Nodada, regarding his application.

Chairperson, I have got some concerns regarding the requirement of full disclosure as well when it comes to the application of Mr Ntisana. It will be recalled Chairperson, that Mr Mazizi Ntisana was a member of parliament prior to the overthrowing by Gen Holomisa and in fact he was a businessman in Transkei. One of the reasons why this government was toppled by Gen Holomisa it's a matter of public record, were accusations of corruption and nepotism. He was a personal friend of Mr Craig Duli for a number of years. In fact in paragraph number 4 on page 61 of the bundle he says -

This shows that immediately after Holomisa came into power he had his own problems with that government and has never been satisfied with it. And he goes on to criticise the Holomisa government and he says on page 62 of the bundle -

I leave it there.

Chairperson, this I would submit gives an impression that we are dealing with a man who all along, after Holomisa came into power, became convinced that the only solution is to get him off power through a coup d'état. Now he meets with Mr Duli after his release from prison, he gets conversation with him to the extent that he is sent to call some soldiers. Interestingly enough there Chairperson, he pleads that he is ignorant of what the plan is. And I submit Chairperson, this is highly inconceivable, that at that stage during January, we are dealing with a man who did not know what these soldiers were wanted for by Mr Craig Duli. And that is important Chairperson, a disclosure to be made because it impacts on his role in the planning of this coup d'état. It impacts as well on his role in the actual coup itself.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but Ms Dambuza said that he's not applying for the January one, she hasn't got any instructions. So we can't refuse it if he's not applying for it.

MR MAPOMA: Oh yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, but what I'm saying is that this draws a background, this is in January, the actual coup d'état took place in November 1990, that is some months after that and still he is not very much involved in this planning and how it's going to be executed and all that. I've got a feeling Chairperson, I would submit, that he has not been candid enough before the Committee to give as complete a picture as possible of what their plan was in this coup. It is not enough Chairperson, I would submit, to say that because he was to be involved in Operation Dawn and not Operation Sacrifice as such, that would mean that he did not know at all what Operation Sacrifice would entail. I'm saying Chairperson, that is not sufficiently conceivable in the circumstances. Well, the other issues have been dealt with by Mr Nodada. Thanks, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Ms Dambuza, have you got anything you want to respond to that arises from the submissions of your colleagues?

MS DAMBUZA IN REPLY: Just on one or two points, Mr Chairperson. I would like to bring to the fore the different stages, or the difference between the two instances, that is the planned coup of January 1990 and the actual one that aborted in November.

Now Mazizi Ntisana says he was instructed by Col Duli to call the soldiers and I would like to refer the Committee to paragraph 6 of his affidavit, on page 65 of the bundle, in which he says, line 3 -

Now according to the evidence that is before the Committee that is the stage he became aware, but he was candid enough to say that then after he became aware he willingly aligned himself, continued to plan now the coup that he became aware Col Duli still intended to execute. And therefore, even though he does not align himself with the coup of the 16th January or 15th January, the planned one, it is my submission that the background that he has given, there are no flaws of significance that can be cause enough for the application not to be granted in his favour.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why would he be hiding ...(indistinct), why would he be still lying at this stage, I mean what - hasn't he served his sentence, hasn't he been punished for all this? What is the real purpose of this amnesty application, apart from things like clearing records and that sort of stuff?

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, that is exactly my sentiment Mr Chairman, that he does not have any reason to be lying, and if he was lying in respect of his knowledge about the planned coup of the 15th January, it was such an insignificant - it was an event of less significance than the one of the 20th of November. If he chose to lie, he would have tried to lie more about the one that resulted in loss of life and can be considered as more serious than the one of the 15th January.

It is my submission Mr Chair, that he - that is Mazizi Ntisana, does not really say "I did not know anything about the first operation, Operation Sacrifice", he says "I knew that there were two stages, there was going to be the military part that was going to be carried out Col Duli and then I would come in". And he does say exactly what he was then supposed to do in the part that he was supposed to play. It is my submission that even the contention by my learned friend, Nodada, that even during the journey to Maclear/Tsolo he does not divulge what was discussed over the radios. If there was anything of significance it is highly unlikely that it would have been discussed at this stage, for really - they could even be intercepted. It is reasonable I submit ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: He did say that he was in contact regularly with Col Duli, who enquired whether they were still travelling well on the road. I mean that's what he said the discussions were about.

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, that's what he said Mr Chairman, and it was not necessary for them to discuss any details at this stage, save to check on each other if they were still safe whilst they were still in contact. And that is why I say that even his disclosure at this stage, it is reasonable for them to have been doing that, there's no reason for him to hide any other thing.

And in respect of him and the other three soldiers, I do submit that Duli is a man they were used to working with and he had successfully executed a coup with them a few months prior. Mr Mazizi Ntisana does not say - his evidence does not indicate that he became agitated or dissatisfied with Holomisa's government immediately after he took power, he said the agreement or the understanding was that he was going to take power for six months and thereafter he would release the power back to the people.

Now in paragraph 4 he does indicate that what happened is that the corruption that was present on Ms Stella Sigcau's government escalated and it, I submit, was sufficient ground for him at this stage to think that if we let this go on and on, things are going to get only worse. He was not impatient as my learned friend has suggested, immediately that Holomisa took power. I therefore submit, Mr Chairman, that enough or full disclosure has been presented to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Dambuza. Mr Malan, I assume that you wouldn't have anything in relation to that.

MR MALAN: That is correct, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you very much. This concludes the formal part of these applications. We have listened to a lot of evidence, there is some other material that have been placed before us which we will consider and we will formulate a decision in the circumstances, once we are in a position to do so. So under the circumstances we will reserve the decision in this matter and we will notify the parties as soon as that decision is available.

It only remains for us to thank you legal representatives for your assistance in this matter, Mr Malan, Ms Dambuza, Mr Nodada, Mr Mapoma, you assistance is appreciated.

We will now take the short adjournment and hopefully in the meantime the rest of the matters would be prepared, so that we can proceed with those others Mr Mapoma, when we reconvene. We'll take the tea adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter that we'll be hearing are the amnesty applications of Pumelele Gumengu and Allan Tyani. The reference number of Gumengu is AM3610/96 and that of Tyani, AM3786/96.

The Panel is constituted as has been already indicated on the record. I'm going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record for the applicants.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Kobus Malan of the attorneys firm Kobus Malan Attorneys in Northum, I'm acting on behalf of both the applicants in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. For the family?

MR MNQANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Philiza Mnqandi, Mnqandi is M-n-q-a-n-d-i. I'm acting on behalf of the victims and I'm from Ntsebeza Incorporated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mnqandi. And then the Leader of Evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Zuko Mapoma, Leader of Evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Yes, Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would like to call Mr Pumelele Gumengu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumengu, is your headset working?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, it is working.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan.

EXAMINATION BY MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gumengu, where do you reside presently?

MR GUMENGU: I am from Thimane in eDudjwa, but I reside in Northern Province.

MR MALAN: Right. You are making your application to this Honourable Committee regarding the death of Sthembele Zokwe. In the first instance the attempted murder and in the second instance the actual murder of Sthembele Zokwe, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You are an applicant in terms of Section 18, as well as Section 20 of Act 34/95 and you complied with all the prerequisites in this regard, except for one aspect that you could or were not in a position to fill in the application form completely, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you explain to the Committee why the form was not filled in properly at the time when we took down the particulars?

MR GUMENGU: ...(no English interpretation) We forwarded the forms, we were in a hurry because of time constraints.

MR MALAN: Can you also confirm to the Committee that it was indicated by members of the Truth Commission, that we can submit the forms in that form and if needs be we can fill in the necessary ...

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that's what we were told.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Malan, it would appear that two forms were filled in, the one in April 1997, which was the one that you're referring to now which is indicated on the form that there'll be later submissions and then the first one that appears on page 3 of the bundle, which doesn't seem to fall into the category of form that you were referring to.

MR MALAN: Mr Chairman, that is indeed correct. I can just put it to the Committee that with regard to the form on page 3, I did not assist the client at that point in time and he was referred at a later stage via the Truth Commission to me and that's where I can vouch for, from there on.

Mr Gumengu, would you please give the Committee a brief

background of your training in the Police Force.

MR GUMENGU: I was employed on the 31st March 1982. I attended training, basic police training in July 1982 and it came to end in December 1982. That took place in Hammanskraal Police College in South Africa.

MR MALAN: But during 1985 you were recruited by one, Lieut John Mfazwe to enlist with the Security Police of the Transkei, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Where is this Lt Mfazwe now?

MR GUMENGU: He is now late.

MR MALAN: Can you give us an indication when and in which manner did he die?

MR GUMENGU: He was involved in a car accident in June or July 1990.

MR MALAN: During June 1986, you enrolled with the Anti-Terrorist Unit in the Transkei, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And during February and March 1987, you attended a demolitions course which was held by the South African Police at Groblersdal, and on that course you also received the highest marks of the whole course, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: During April and May of '87, the Lieutenant in the meanwhile became Capt Mfazwe, he requested you to go to his offices personally and he said that you will be earmarked for special tasks and that you have to report to him only. These tasks would be solely in the interests of the Transkeian people, am I correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you have any reason to doubt your superiors at that point in time?

MR GUMENGU: No, I had no reason to doubt my authorities because I trusted them.

MR MALAN: Can you briefly point out to the Committee what your political views were in that stage of your life.

MR GUMENGU: As a member of the Security Police, there were banned organisations. Our task as the Security Police was to deal with people who were promoting the interests of these banned organisations, those organisations that were banned in Transkei.

MR MALAN: Who were those organisations, can you name them?

MR GUMENGU: Many of them, amongst them there was ANC, there was SACP, there was PAC, there was UDF, AZAPO and the others. I think there were about 13 organisations.

MR MALAN: Was it part of your mandate and task to fight terrorism as we have known it, at that point in time?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: By which ways were you trained to fight the onslaught?

MR GUMENGU: The manner in which we were fighting would changed from time to time according to the strategy that was used by the resistance organisations and the units would be established according to the situation prevailing at the time. All of us, though we were in the Security Force, but our units were different and our assignments were also different and our assignments would depend on the situation prevailing at the time.

MR MALAN: Your enrolment with the Security Police, did it imply that you were working with top secret missions?

MR GUMENGU: That was the first thing that was indicated. On the very first day you have to sign a specific document that mentions that you are actually dealing with top secret and you are never to reveal any information concerning that and all the time you are supposed to work per instruction from your operatives.

MR MALAN: Was it in that sense weird for you or out of the normal than if you received orders only from one man and if you have to report only back to one man?

MR GUMENGU: To me there was nothing unusual about that in the sense that when the units were established they would be open for one person or more, but there was a situation whereby you have to know that you have to contribute because of the situation and the other people are not supposed to get some details, therefore you would be forced to report to one person, not just anyone.

MR MALAN: Right. Have you ever received orders - I'm going to phrase it in italics or inverted commas, "from the top"?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I would receive instructions, that was a normal thing.

MR MALAN: And what was your view, how do you interpret instructions from the top, what did you understand by that term?

MR GUMENGU: If I say it's an instruction, it's something that I have to do and I should ensure that it's something that is allowed by the government and it's something that supposed to help the government of the time.

MR MALAN: In other words am I correct if I state that you were under the impression that when you are executing orders in that sense from the top, you were well in the boundaries of the law?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan, if I could just intervene.

Where were you stationed, Mr Gumengu, when you were with this so-called Anti-Terrorist Unit?

MR GUMENGU: When I started working for the Anti-Terrorist Unit - it was established in 1986, I think the month was July, at the time I was in district number two, that was Butterworth. That consists of Willowvale, Gcentane, Namakwe, eDudjwa, Kei Bridge, that is district number two. And in 1987 I was taken to Johannesburg.

JUDGE MILLER: And then were you stationed in Johannesburg from 1987 onwards?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: With the Transkei Police, or did you switch over to join the SAP?

MR GUMENGU: I was staying alone because my assignment there required me to stay in different hotels or I would look for a flat and stay there and the government would pay for me and I would be called for an assignment here in the Transkei if it was necessary.

JUDGE MILLER: And when you were in district number two, namely Butterworth, stationed in Butterworth and also when you were stationed in Johannesburg, was it still the situation that you only took orders from Capt Mfazwe?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, although what was mentioned to me was this, if Capt Mfazwe, if it can be difficult for me to get hold of him, the person that I had to contact was Gen Kauwe or else the person who was in a position to help me in Johannesburg whenever I come across problems, was a divisional - from the Security Police who was in charge of Soweto. He as Brig Grobler, though I never saw him with my own eyes, I was just given his telephone number.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, and sorry just one last little point, where was Capt Mfazwe stationed? Was he in Butterworth or head office here in Umtata?

MR GUMENGU: He was in Butterworth.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: No problem, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gumengu, there were some courses that you had to attend in the normal course of the furthering of your career, but there were also a lot of special courses that you attended, can you inform the Committee of them please.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there were special courses.

MR MALAN: Can you name them please.

MR GUMENGU: One other course that was not supposed to be revealed to anyone, was a course of breaking in the houses or offices that could enable me to take whatever I wanted inside a house or an office.

MR MALAN: Who provided this course, is it the South African Police or the Transkeian Police?

MR GUMENGU: When I started on this course in 1987, I was here in the Transkei through a white man that I was introduced to by Mr Mfazwe. This white man used to call himself John, he's the one who was training me here in Transkei.

MR MALAN: Right. You were also attending courses where they showed you videos and books and stuff regarding political ideologies, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, I attended such courses.

MR MALAN: What was the intention of the course?

MR GUMENGU: It was to ensure that I have all the necessary knowledge of what is the reason banning all these organisations and to know more about the actions at the time, or movement, and how to counteract the activities of such organisations. And in the same videos we would learn that most of the things - there was nothing that was being promoted or said by the banned organisations, but all what was promoted was the constitution or the ideas of the government of that time.

MR MALAN: These organisations, were they proposed as the enemy to you, and if so, did you believe that?

MR GUMENGU: They were not enemies to me personally but to the government yes, they were enemies.

MR MALAN: In being the enemy of the government would it tantamount to being your enemy? Am I correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you receive any remuneration excepting normal salary and monies for sleeping out or whatever, for doing this job?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there were allowances that would be granted to a person who would sleep out of home for 24 hours. There was S&T that had a limited amount and there's another one that was called constant allowance, that we would get for claiming with slips. I was using that but at some stage they realised that I was using a lot of money and they changed me to something that was called operational allowance that was coming to me every month. Even if I had gone out or not, I would get that allowance.

MR MALAN: But the monies that you received were in line with the doctrines of the Police Force and were monitored by the Police Force, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, because we would fill in forms before getting that money. We would not get that money without any approval, you have to sign, to fill in forms and after the approval you'd get a cheque.

JUDGE MILLER: So is the position then Mr Gumengu, that when you for instance were in Jo'burg, you'd only received an operational allowance, you didn't get a salary plus an operational allowance, or did you get both?

MR GUMENGU: I would get both of them till such time in 1988 where it was reduced to only one.

JUDGE MILLER: Then that was the operational allowance?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: In your affidavit you state that you had regular contact with Capt Mfazwe and he at some stage indicated to you personally that if you act against the enemies of the State, which we outlined in brief, even if it means that you have to eliminate people, you were acting on the highest authority's orders, is that so?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did Capt Mfazwe indicate to you that you not only have to eliminate the enemy but that you have to infiltrate their organisation will also be asked from you?

MR GUMENGU: Will you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR MALAN: Did he also say that part of your task would be to infiltrate the enemy in an effort to learn more about their organisation and their efforts to undermine the Transkeian Government?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Is it so that some of your actions were either covert or clandestine?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: At a certain stage you were issued with a motor vehicle that was not registered in your name and you were issued with the following firearms:

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: How did you receive these items, and did you have to sign for it on an official form?

MR GUMENGU: The 9mm pistol and the BXP sub-machine gun and the R4 rifle, I signed for them but the AK47 and the handgrenades I never signed anything for them.

MR MALAN: The handgrenades might come in at a later stage in this hearing. Was the origin of the handgrenades South African or communist?

MR GUMENGU: They were of South African origin.

MR MALAN: How do know that?

MR GUMENGU: They were M26 and I was trained in the use of that, I know the difference.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan, if I could just intervene.

Why didn't you sign for the AK47 and the handgrenades?

MR GUMENGU: The manner in which I received them, it was when I was in this highly protected job and even the manner they came, like this AK47 I was given by Capt Mfazwe, he brought it to me and the handgrenades were brought to me by Lt Kabingese. I went to fetch them in his house while he was still staying in this township called Kwezi.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, just one follow-up.

And you say you were given these handgrenades of South African origin because you were trained in the use of them?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I was trained but they were given to me so that I could do some tasks when necessary or when I get instructions to use them.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, because I've heard personally in many of these hearings that to be trained in the use of a handgrenade, five minutes is enough and if you are an expert, you got top marks at the demolition course, you wouldn't have to actually be trained in the use of a handgrenade just because it comes from Russia or China, you'd know wouldn't you?

MR GUMENGU: The training of explosives I did everything all at once. Those coming from China or from wherever in South Africa, I got that course, all of them at once. I was given these handgrenades to use them, not to be trained.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gumengu, when you received the handgrenades were there distinctive markings on the outside so that you can ascertain that it was South African origin?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And the purpose of receiving the handgrenades, was it for a specific task or was it merely to keep in your custody to be used whenever required?

MR GUMENGU: I had to keep them in my possession and wait for instructions to use them.

MR MALAN: And the person that you mentioned where you received the handgrenades, was he known to be one of the Security Police or any other official structure?

MR GUMENGU: He was the person who was in charge of the explosives in the Transkei.

MR MALAN: Right. And you know that from your own knowledge?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: If we can go back in the first instance. We would like to deal with the attempted murder on the deceased, Mr Zokwe, during August 1987. Was Mr Zokwe in your mind, part and parcel of the political enemy that was sketched to you through all your courses and training in the Police Force?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he was part of the enemy.

MR MALAN: How did you ascertain that?

MR GUMENGU: I was first given the files to read about him, secondly we monitored his activities. We would from time to time follow up on clues that we would get.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, would you please just give the last part of that again, I didn't hear that.

INTERPRETER: He said they were monitoring his movements, his activities and even the follow-up on clues that they were given.

MR MALAN: Thank you so much.

Alright. Capt Mfazwe at some stage before August '87, tasked you with a certain task, would you please reveal this in detail to the Honourable Committee.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Sorry who was this gentleman that you're referring to?

MR GUMENGU: It is this person who was giving out information to Capt Mfazwe. That was Capt Mfazwe's informer, I was to know his name, I had to do what I had to do.

I tried to flash the light, trying to stop this car that Sthembele was driving in but he refused to stop. I followed the car and it was driving in the direction of eDudjwa.

MR MALAN: Were you alone in the car at that point in time?

MR GUMENGU: I was with this Capt Mfazwe's informer.

MR MALAN: You referring in your affidavit to two names, namely - I hope I pronounce it correctly Mcukana, who was the driver and the one, Shologu, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: That is another incident, the one that you are talking about, I'm not yet there.

MR MALAN: Sorry, proceed. You can proceed.

MR GUMENGU:

After that I followed him, I chased him and he disappeared and as the road was a gravel road, there was a lot of dust that made me not see where he went to, therefore I had to go back to Capt Mfazwe, still driving in this same car."

MR MALAN: Alright. You referred earlier that the deceased, Mr Zokwe, also used to involve himself in the activities of the unions, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And in retrospect, was that an offence? Didn't the law provide for activities with the unions?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: So if the deceased did so, he didn't contravene any law at that point in time but it was a thorn in the flesh for the government, am I correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Alright. Can you please proceed with the matter, the first incident where you apprehended Mr Zokwe.

MR GUMENGU: I would like to place the story in a certain logic because it looks like there are some information that you are going to skip because his arrest was the last thing, therefore I would like to place these events in some logic.

MR MALAN: Please do it, Sir.

MR GUMENGU:

MR MALAN: Sorry, was it during the day or the night? What was the light condition at that point?

MR GUMENGU: It was during the night.

...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Gumengu, before you get onto another point. Why didn't you go and check to see whether you had fatally shot Mr Zokwe? You said that you were sure you hit him, but the fact that you shot at somebody and hit him doesn't necessarily mean you would kill him, and your instruction was to kill him. So why didn't you walk up to where he had fallen to make sure what his condition was?

MR GUMENGU: The reason for me not to go there to inspect is because I was so confident that when I hit him it was on the head and with the distance where he was, with a 7.5 pistol he wouldn't survive and I was so sure that I hit him on the head. There was no need for me to go back there and make sure that he was dead, or finish him out, but I was so confident that he was dead.

MR MALAN: How many shots did you fire on the deceased?

MR GUMENGU: Only once.

MR MALAN: Right, you can continue.

MR GUMENGU:

MR MALAN: Sorry, I must interrupt you Mr Gumengu. In your affidavit in Afrikaans, page 16 you indicated that you have fired two shots and you are informing this Committee that it was only one, can you just clarify that for us please.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I can clarify that. I pulled the trigger only once but I think and after getting the report, I thought that the rifle was on double-action because it is possible with this kind of pistol to fire at double-action, though you only pull the trigger once. That is possible with this kind of a pistol.

MR MALAN: So there were indeed two shots fired, but you pulled the trigger once, do I understand you correctly?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you, you can continue.

MR GUMENGU:

MR MALAN: Were you at any stage issued with a warrant for his arrest through the normal channels of apprehending a person?

MR GUMENGU: No, I was told that I must not apprehend him, I should shoot to kill when I meet him.

MR MALAN: But wasn't it part of your instructions in the first instance, either to arrest him or to kill him if need be?

MR GUMENGU: Please repeat the question, Sir.

MR MALAN: Was it not your instructions to either apprehend and arrest the person or if you cannot do that, then prefer to the killing of the deceased?

MR GUMENGU: Initially that was the instruction at the time where there was this informer, Mfazwe's informer but after the attempts from his side to attack the office, the orders took a turn and I was told not to arrest him but to kill him straight away.

MR MALAN: Are you familiar with the term dynamite house, or place called dynamite house?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I used to hear about such houses.

MR MALAN: On page 4 of the bundle that was given to me yesterday, the supplementary bundle, in the Supreme Court of the Transkei where you were in the criminal matter regarding this thing, there was a summary in terms of Section 149(3)(a) of Act 13/83, and in this summary it was suggested that you being one of the accused, took the deceased on this occasion to the so-called dynamite house where he was shot three times in his head and neck and where you left him for dead. Can you confirm that?

MR GUMENGU: I do not know the area and it was during the night and I told them to go to any place as long as it was outside of Umtata. If the charge sheet mentions the fact that there were three bullets or whatever, as far as I'm concerned with this 7.65 I pulled the trigger only once, but when I heard later that the bullets that were found in his body were more than one, I was sure that since this was a pistol, the pistol had released more bullets though the trigger was pulled only once. And I'm the only one who pulled a trigger there. Even if they say any number of the bullets, I am accountable because I'm the one who actually pulled the trigger.

MR MALAN: Would you deny it if it was put to you at any stage that you indeed took the deceased to the dynamite house and shot him inside the dynamite house, may I call it mafia style, execution style?

MR GUMENGU: That was not how it happened, taking him to the house, that is not true, it happened the way I am explaining it here.

MR MALAN: Alright. At a later stage you learnt ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: This place where the shooting took place, was it not near the quarries?

MR GUMENGU: I heard that in the newspaper and in the charge sheet, that it was next to a quarry, but it was very dark and I did not see and I do not know and I was not familiar with that vicinity. But if they say that it was next to the quarry, I cannot dispute that, that is possible.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, and one would imagine then that the dynamite house would mean the house where the dynamite that is used in the quarry to blow up the rocks would be kept - the dynamite house would be near the quarry.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is also possible, but I'm not familiar about that place.

MR MALAN: You subsequently learnt that Mr Zokwe survived this onslaught on his life, when did you learn that?

MR GUMENGU: I heard that. I was called Capt Mfazwe coming from Umtata, saying that Mr Zokwe was in hospital. His intentions to go to Umtata was to go there and report to the authorities, to tell them that the mission was accomplished but he got a shock when he heard that he was still alive and he was in Umtata hospital. And the police of Umtata, they arrested him, he is in hospital but under police guard. And I also got that information from the newspapers.

MR MALAN: Alright, what happened then?

MR GUMENGU:

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll stop there for the moment. We'll take the luncheon adjournment, we'll reconvene at 2 o'clock.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan.

EXAMINATION BY MR MALAN: (Cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Gumengu, you can commence.

MR GUMENGU:

MR MALAN: Mr Gumengu, just to wrap up your testimony in-chief, I'd just like to pose a few questions. To sum up, do you testify before this Committee that all your actions mentioned in your testimony were born out of political motivation?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR MALAN: And did you receive no personal gain financially other than normal salaries that was given to each and every person in that capacity?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there was no other benefit.

MR MALAN: We've just learnt now that you received presidential pardon for this criminal matter, and in the light thereof, is there any reason that you didn't or are afraid to make a full disclosure of the events?

MR GUMENGU: Everything that had happened is what I've just said, except maybe the fact that I have forgotten, but there's nothing I want to hide.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Malan, if I could just intervene.

You say - did you receive indemnity for the shooting of Mr Zokwe, presidential pardon or whatever?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Because I see - if you take a look at page of the documents, that's the form that you filled in yourself, it says there that you've been charged in the Supreme Court case number 491, attempted murder and it says -

MR GUMENGU: What happened is when I was arrested in 1990 for the coup, when I was refused a bail by the Attorney-General, he said that I had a pending case which is this one, so I went to him and asked him to explain this to me. He said that the indemnity that I got was not recognised, so his advice was that I must make another application. And at that time there was the Commission of Inquiry of Mr Dumbushana here in Umtata in 1991 or 1992. I then made that application in the Supreme Court, but he answered me and said that he had cases, specified cases that he was supposed to look at, so I had to wait for this one. That is the reason why I made this application because I realised that that first one was not recognised, but we were released from jail.

MR MALAN: Alright. Mr Gumengu, you testified that you at some stage received several handgrenades, what's happened to them? The South African M26 handgrenades.

MR GUMENGU: I said when I was arrested in January 1988, I handed my weapons over, the R4, the BXP, the AK and grenades. What was always with me in the cell was the 9mm pistol. These are the weapons I handed over to Capt Mfazwe.

MR MALAN: Did you use any of the handgrenades at any stage?

MR GUMENGU: No, I did not use them.

MR MALAN: When you accompanied the deceased at the scene where he subsequently died, did you have any handgrenades with you on that particular day?

MR GUMENGU: No, I only had a 9mm with me.

MR MALAN: You testified that it was part of your orders in any event to execute Mr Zokwe. At what time did you intend to do that?

MR GUMENGU: At any opportunity, at any right opportunity that I had found. I was supposed to execute the orders at the right time.

MR MALAN: The handgrenades that you found in the cache were they South African made or foreign?

MR GUMENGU: Even though I didn't see them because I didn't go inside the house to search the house, I heard that they were not from South Africa, they were foreign handgrenades. I heard that because I was not even interested in going inside the house when that happened because I was very disturbed of how this happened.

MR MALAN: What will your reaction be if it's put to you that this whole description of his death was merely rigged by yourself and other Security Force people, to give it the look that it was an accident?

MR GUMENGU: When it happened at that time, even though it was supposed to happen at that time, it didn't happen to serve my interest because I don't know what orders other members had. But at that time what happened is that the mistake he made was he had a handgrenade on his hand, but I'm not saying that I wouldn't have got the opportunity to go on and follow the instructions that I got.

MR MALAN: I just want to verify one point. You testified after the shots the handgrenade exploded, does this imply that the safety pin of the handgrenade was already removed?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, because it was not only one shot before the handgrenade exploded, there was a sequence of gunshots and then the grenade followed, so indeed the safety pin had already been removed.

MR MALAN: Alright. The very last question that I would like to pose to you, in retrospect did you think that the attempted murder and subsequent murder of the deceased was a violation of human rights? And if so, why?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, it was the violation of human rights because when a war was declared, every time a war is declared by two sides, soldiers of both sides had to serve the interests of their side. So in that kind of situation we are indeed violating human rights, but you would know that you are doing this to further the interests of your side and to show that your side is stronger than the other side and it will win.

MR MALAN: Do you agree that it would have been more appropriate to go through the channels that were in place through the judicial system, to arrest him on a warrant of arrest, to put him on trial, to give him a chance, the audi alteram rule, so that he can pose his side of the story to a court of law? Wouldn't that be the more appropriate route to follow than a mere execution?

MR GUMENGU: It would have been an appropriate way but in other units there are units that are specified for that and there units that are not specified for that, but because of the stages of the war and the situation at the time, we would evaluate the tactics and the strategies of an enemy and we practise the same tactics of the enemy, to show them that we are above them.

MR MALAN: And lastly, do you have a sincere remorse of what happened ex post facto, when you take all the facts together?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I do have a sincere remorse about what had happened and a war is something that is not required because the person who is on the opposite side, it happens that maybe you know each other but because you are in a war you have to ignore that you know this person and I would like that such a war would not be happening again and I regret taking part in such a war.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Mnqandi, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MNQANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I will ask a few questions.

Mr Gumengu, where were you born?

MR GUMENGU: In eDudjwa Diman.

MR MNQANDI: And during the course of your work with the Security Police were you used to coming to Umtata?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I used to come to Umtata.

MR MNQANDI: I want us to come to the day of the quarry incident. When you left Butterworth were you aware that the deceased, Zokwe, was also around Umtata?

MR GUMENGU: There was information that where Tami Moweli was he would also be there, but at that time there was no information that we would arrive here and he would be here but we knew that it was possible that he was around.

MR MNQANDI: When you apprehended Mr Zokwe you said you told them, whoever was driving, that they must drive towards the outskirts of town, what was the purpose of so driving out of town?

MR GUMENGU: It was because I wanted to do as Capt Mfazwe had told me to do because he said that he was not be arrested, I had to make sure that he was not alive.

MR MNQANDI: So you were going out to kill him?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I was going out to kill him. I don't know about the others orders.

MR MNQANDI: You say you don't know which direction you took, is that a fact?

MR GUMENGU: I do remember that we took the direction towards Tsolo, but we took a lot of routes when we went out of Umtata. I don't know these roads but I know that we used that route out of Umtata. I don't know whether we were in Umtata or Lebode but we went in that direction.

MR MNQANDI: How many were you in the vehicle when you left?

MR GUMENGU: There were four of us including Sthembele.

MR MNQANDI: Was the deceased handcuffed in any way or was he just free?

MR GUMENGU: He was not handcuffed.

MR MNQANDI: Why wasn't he handcuffed?

MR GUMENGU: No-one said he must be handcuffed. Because I had no reason to handcuff him but I knew that the time had come to do as I was instructed.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mnqandi - wasn't it normal to handcuff somebody who you apprehend? You don't have to wait for somebody to tell you.

MR GUMENGU: I was not arresting him, but I was going to kill him as I was instructed to do so when we found him in Umtata. I don't know whether others had orders to arrest him or to do what with him, but I had no orders to arrest him, so I was not arresting him.

MR MNQANDI: Was he in any way searched before he was put into the vehicle?

MR GUMENGU: I don't remember anybody searching him, except that he was told to get into the car and he did so.

MR MNQANDI: So you didn't yourself specifically search him?

MR GUMENGU: No, I didn't, but I cannot dispute when it is said that somebody else searched him, but I didn't personally search him.

MR MNQANDI: Weren't you afraid that he might be having a weapon with him?

MR GUMENGU: No, I wasn't afraid.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the scene where the attempted execution took place, you have told this Tribunal that you were first to go out of the vehicle, what were you going out to do?

MR GUMENGU: When I went out of the car I was going to the toilet.

MR MNQANDI: And the other members, what were they doing at the time?

MR GUMENGU: They also got out of the car and they stood next to the car with him.

MR MNQANDI: Had you told them to take him out of the car?

MR GUMENGU: No, I didn't say that they must take him out of the car. I just said they must stop the car in that spot, I didn't say that they must take him out of the car. I wanted to go to the toilet at that time.

MR MNQANDI: Approximately what time was it when you arrived at this ...(indistinct)

MR GUMENGU: I think it was about nine or ten at night. I am not sure, but it was during the night.

MR MNQANDI: Was there any light in any way in the area you were in?

MR GUMENGU: I didn't notice, or if there was light I can't remember. What I can remember is that there were houses not far away, but I can't remember whether I could see those houses because of - there were lights in or not. I'm not sure whether there were lights in or not, I'm not sure.

MR MNQANDI: But you were able to see each other in the area.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: How far from the others were you when you noticed the deceased running?

MR GUMENGU: I think from here to the offices of the Magistrate.

JUDGE MILLER: ...(inaudible - no microphone) knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: I don't know if counsel will agree, but the street behind us is rather wide here, I'd say about 40 to 50 paces. Would you agree with that? From where he's sitting I would say it's about 50 paces. It can be checked later but we can work on that at this stage.

MR MNQANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I cannot say yes or no about that.

MR MNQANDI: When you noticed him running, was he running towards you?

MR GUMENGU: I heard footsteps before seeing him and after that he was coming towards my direction. I think that he was not aware of which direction I was. I went down and he was coming towards the direction that I was in. I can say that he was coming towards my direction but on the side.

MR MNQANDI: When you fired your first shot, how far was he from you?

MR GUMENGU: I think that he was here to that flag or that speaker there next to the flag.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems like it's about 25 paces that the applicant points out.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, I would accept that, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. Yes, Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: And were you able to determine where you had hit the deceased?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I was able to do so.

MR MNQANDI: How was it possible that you were able to determine that in the light of the fact that it was dark in the area?

MR GUMENGU: It was during the night, he was running away, he didn't know which direction I was so I took my time and I could see that it was him and he was running away, so I took my time watching him and I then shot at him when I realised that he was nearer, but he was going to the other direction.

MR MNQANDI: What type of firearm were you using?

MR GUMENGU: 7.65mm, the pistol.

MR MNQANDI: And you have given evidence here that at a point in time it can issue two bullets at the same time, can you explain this to me, I'm not familiar with the use of guns.

MR GUMENGU: It happens that when you were aiming for a long time and you had cocked your weapon and your hand - your finger would not be fast to pull the trigger, three or four bullets can come out at the same time. So it will only stop after you remove your finger from the trigger. As long as you are still holding the trigger, all the bullets can come out at the same time.

MR MNQANDI: And I take it this would be from one aim, that is you would be aiming at one point on the victim at the time.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Is it possible that the bullets would hit the target at different places in such an instance?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, the bullet would not hit the same place, they might hit different places.

MR MNQANDI: And when you fired at the deceased you say he was running.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he was running but I was not shooting at him because of the fact that he was running.

MR MNQANDI: You were shooting at him because you had orders to kill him.

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And when you fired at him, the two shots that hit him, is it not peculiar that these shots which were fired at a person who was running were able to hit him at points that are very near to each other?

MR GUMENGU: I don't know how they hit him because I didn't go back to him to see where I had hit him, but I was sure that I had hit him and I was sure that I had finished the job, so I left.

MR MNQANDI: I find it strange Mr Gumengu, that at night you were so sure that you had killed the deceased without even going to ascertain that fact, why were you so sure?

MR GUMENGU: The reason for that is that the way we practise when we are shooting during the day or at night and the way we rate our shooting, so there was no need for me to go and check because I was sure that the bullet had hit the place that I wanted it to hit and because I was using the 7.65 and it was at night and my mission was not accomplished, that surprised me, but I was sure because of my training and the way we rated, I was sure that I had done the job, so there was no need for me to go back to him. But because it was a 7.65, the distance and the power it was not able to do what I had thought it would do.

MR MNQANDI: I put it to you Mr Gumengu, that in fact what you are telling us is not what really happened. In fact, when you hit the deceased he was lying down and you left him for dead because you had ascertained that you had hit him on the day in question.

MR GUMENGU: If I had went to see or to check him and if I had realised that he had not died, for sure I would have hit him so that he can die. So I didn't go to him, I left him lying down there without checking, but I was sure of the shot that I had fired. If I had went back to him I would have realised that he was not dead and then I would shoot at him again. So there was no need for that because I was sure that I had hit him.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Mnqandi, if I could just ask a question on this point.

Mr Gumengu, why didn't you at that stage - okay, you've now shot Mr Zokwe, why didn't you go and get a police photographer and get other policemen in to remove the body like you explained when he eventually was killed? You went great efforts to get photographers to try to get the body, the ambulance people, hospital people to the body, why didn't you behave in the same way out at the quarry there after you had shot him?

MR GUMENGU: I wouldn't be able to do that because I was told that he must die and he must be found dead and they must not know who had killed him. So I wouldn't be able to go call the police or the ambulance because my shooting at him was not the fact that he was escaping, but I was doing as I was instructed, so I would not have been able to call the ambulance or the police. The reason why I did all these things at the second incident is because that didn't happen per instruction, what happened was something that was not expected.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, Mr Gumengu, what you are saying is exactly what is making me not believe your story. You have instructions to kill a person, you don't ascertain whether that is done, you just leave him without ascertaining so and this suggests to me that what you are telling us is not truth.

MR GUMENGU: What I'm saying is the truth because if I had gone back to him and found out that he was not dead, I would be forced to kill him, but because I was sure of myself I was sure that I had hit him and he was dead. But because of the calibre of the firearm, the 7.65, and the distance, I think that is why he had survived, but I was sure that I had hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: But just on that point, Mr Gumengu, even if you were sure that you hit him, how did you know that you had hit him in a spot on the body that would have proved to be fatal? I mean he might have fallen if you'd hit him on the knee, or if you hit him in the ribs with a non-fatal shot he could have fallen. The mere fact that you shot and he fall doesn't mean, I'm sure even to the best hunter, that the target was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: He could even have slipped and fell. You might have missed him.

MR GUMENGU: That would not have happened, I was sure of my aiming and when you had hit the target at any time, you could feel it in your blood that you had hit the target. You would not determine that by him falling, you would know that you had hit him and you would know where you had hit him. Even if the people can hit now you would know where you had hit that person, so there's no reason for you not to know in which spot or in which part of the body you had hit him and I was sure that I had hit him and I was sure where I had hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he coming in your direction as he was running?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he was coming towards my direction but he was not aware that I was in that direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and he was about 25 paces away from you when you fired the shots as you had indicated to us, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, it was from here to the flag.

CHAIRPERSON: So for you to get back to the car if I understand you correctly, he was between where you were, he was lying between the point where you were and where the car was. Is that right?

MR GUMENGU: I don't understand the question, can you repeat it.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that the deceased was running in your direction when you shot him.

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So when he fell he must have been somewhere between the point where you were and where the car was, because we must assume he was running from the car, that's where you left him standing.

MR GUMENGU: He was not in the middle, what happened there is he was coming towards me but he was on the sides and I was on the other side. I was on the edge of the other side and he was coming towards my direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now if you had left where you were standing and you now move towards the car, mustn't you move roughly past the point where the deceased was now lying?

MR GUMENGU: No, I was not passing that place, that spot.

CHAIRPERSON: Then explain to us, where was the deceased lying after you had shot him.

MR GUMENGU: As he was coming towards that direction, when I shot at him he fell down on the side and I was on the other side and then I went on the other direction to the car, I did not go towards his direction. He was going to pass my direction, so when I hit him I went back to the car using the direction that I'd used when I was going to that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Look if you hadn't shot him, if you just left him to run as he was running, would he have run past you?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he would have passed me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now if I understand that situation correctly, then the deceased must have fallen somewhere on your way back to the car. Or am I misunderstanding what you are explaining?

MR GUMENGU: What happened is we left this car and I took another direction towards the car and he was coming towards me, towards my direction and I was on the other side, he was on the other side. There was nothing - I wouldn't pass him when I was going to the car, I would have gone back to the car using the direction that I used.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: Thank you ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry to interrupt. Mr Chairman, may I make a suggestion, can he probably try and explain if this was the car, this was himself and this was the deceased?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR MNQANDI: Mr Gumengu, wasn't it a coincidence to you that the fact that a person you had gone for the purpose of killing, would run directly towards you?

MR GUMENGU: No, because I knew that maybe he didn't see which direction I was, because I went on the other side, I did not remain where the car had stopped, so he was not aware of which direction I was.

MR MNQANDI: Why if you were seeing him, was he unable to see you?

MR GUMENGU: It is because when I left him there standing in the car, I am sure that maybe he didn't see which direction I am heading towards. Secondly, the reason why I noticed him is because I heard his footsteps and he didn't hear anything, so after hearing the footsteps I could see which direction he was taking. That is why he could not see me.

MR MNQANDI: When you got back to your colleagues in the vehicle, did you explain to them why you shot the deceased?

MR GUMENGU: No, I didn't explain to him and they didn't ask whether he is dead or what was happening, I just said that we must go, the job has been finished. They didn't ask anything. And I think that that was because we were from different units, they were aware that we were from different units.

MR MNQANDI: Were any criminal charges laid against you for this incident?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there were criminal charges that were laid in 1988.

MR MNQANDI: That is after the second incident.

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And were there any investigations taking place according to your knowledge, between the first incident and the second incident?

MR GUMENGU: There was an investigation after the second incident. After the first one a docket was opened but I don't know who was investigating, I don't know what was happening, but after the second incident there was an investigation.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mnqandi, when you say after the incident a docket was opened, was that docket opened against you or was it opened against Mr Zokwe? Was the docket to arrest Mr Zokwe or was the docket to investigate the shooting of him? What was the investigation after the first incident?

MR GUMENGU: A docket was opened that he was found being injured and Mr Zokwe was arrested by the Security Police of Umtata, but there were no charges laid against him because he was released after some time. But when was in hospital - when he was found there, taken to hospital, he was then arrested by the police here in Umtata, and on the other side a docket that he was injured was opened.

MR MNQANDI: In fact I want to put it to you that when he was in hospital he did lay a charge against you and you are aware of that.

MR GUMENGU: No, I'm not aware of that.

MR MNQANDI: When did you first become aware that there was a case pending as a result of the first incident?

MR GUMENGU: I found that out from the newspapers that there was a case and there was a docket that was opened because he was found there injured. I think it was that same week that I read that from the newspapers.

MR MNQANDI: Did you try to establish what statement he had made to the police about the incident?

MR GUMENGU: No, I didn't try to find out what was happening because I knew that if there was anything involving my name, Capt Mfazwe was there, the one who instructed me. He was going to be the one who would give me details about the process or about what was happening. I knew that he would tell me everything, but he didn't tell me that there was any threat or anything else, I continued with my job.

MR MNQANDI: Are you aware of any statement that the deceased made concerning this incident?

MR GUMENGU: No.

MR MNQANDI: I want to put to you that the deceased made a statement to the fact that when you reached the quarry he was led by three policemen, two in front, one at the back, to dongas which were in the area where he was attempted to be killed.

MR GUMENGU: No, if he had put it that way, that was not what happened or maybe the statement was not taken properly. Maybe he was saying that three police took him to that vicinity where he was, where this attempted murder continued, not that he was led to that place, but he went there with three police. That is the truth, but not that he was lying down and he was shot lying down, it is not like that. Maybe there was a mistake somewhere. Because if he was lying down he would have died, we would have made sure that he was dead because three policemen would have made sure that he was dead.

MR MNQANDI: In fact he says that he was running away and he fell down and that's the time he was shot.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, he was running away and then he fell down because of the bullet, that's all.

MR MNQANDI: When you discovered that the deceased had not died from this first incident, how did you feel?

MR GUMENGU: That surprised me that he didn't die in that first incident and then Capt Mfazwe said that we were working and nothing would be charged for that.

MR MNQANDI: The fact that you heard, or you read a statement in the press that there were charges pending, did it not surprise you?

MR GUMENGU: No, it did not surprise me because if a person is found lying on the street, a docket would be opened, depending on the investigations. So the fact that the docket has been opened doesn't mean somebody would be arrested but it means that there has to be an investigation, so I was not surprised or afraid because Capt Mfazwe had assured me that there won't be any problem.

MR MNQANDI: Didn't you feel that maybe the deceased would be able to disclose the names of his people and you were - of the people who were attempting to kill him and you would be in trouble?

MR GUMENGU: No, we were not afraid of that because the government of the day backed us on all the efforts that we did fighting the enemy so we knew that even if the case went to the Supreme Court, we would be released, the government would support us so we had no problem with that. Because we were not the ones who were planning all these operations, the government would plan this and it would come to us as the police, as something that has been made a law. So I was not afraid, even if I was told to go to the Supreme Court, I knew that the government would support me and I would be released, as it indeed happened.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know how long the deceased after the first incident, stayed in hospital?

MR GUMENGU: No, I don't know.

MR MNQANDI: And you say that when he was in hospital he was under police guard.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Were there any charges that were going to be preferred against him?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, because maybe other units had charges against him because he was a wanted, other units wanted to arrest him even in that office but in our unit we had no cell where we could put him but maybe in other units he would be charged and taken to court, but in our units we did not want to arrest him.

MR MNQANDI: Okay, I want us to deal with the second incident. When you took the deceased to the place where he was killed, how many were you?

MR GUMENGU: The first incident, Sir?

MR MNQANDI: The second incident.

MR GUMENGU: It was myself, Spambo, Mr Tjane, Gofunga, Smooi. I'm not sure whether we were more than five, but I'm sure that these people that I've already mentioned were there.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know how many vehicles went on this operation?

MR GUMENGU: If I still remember well I think there were two.

MR MNQANDI: What time of the day was it when you left Butterworth?

MR GUMENGU: It was about five when we were closing the office, but it was before six. It was five or after five, but before 6 o'clock. I'm not sure whether we were closing at half past four or five in the office, but it was during that time. Maybe we had arrived there at about six or past six, but this happened before we close the office.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the deceased place, was it still light?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: Can you explain to us what exactly happened when you reached the place.

MR GUMENGU: Tjane and myself we took the deceased, we went with him so that he can point out this room that he said there were grenades in and at that time other members were surrounding the house. W/O Spambo who was in charge of the operation was the one who was putting members in certain points so that we would surround that place. And then at that time we continued, we went inside. We went through the gate, there was a house on the right-hand side, a rondawel house, I'm not sure. ...(intervention)

MR MNQANDI: Sorry, let me interrupt you. When you came to the house was there any person that you met, that is the people from the vicinity or the members of the homestead?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there was someone who was standing next to this house on the right-hand side, we asked where the mother of the house was, he said she was not there. We asked who was present, he said there was no-one but he was going to call somebody. We then went in at that time, then he went to call that person that he said he was going to call which I think he was related to that family.

MR MNQANDI: This person that you are talking about, was it a male or a female?

MR GUMENGU: It was a female.

MR MNQANDI: Did you meet any male member of the family when you came into the house?

MR GUMENGU: I can't remember except maybe she arrived after being called by that person we were talking to, but I can't remember anybody else except the person that we met with who was standing next to that house. She said that the mother of the house was not there, she was in town but she was going to call someone else. But I didn't see that person if she had called him because we went inside the house after speaking to that person.

MR MNQANDI: How was the deceased handcuffed when you reached the house?

MR GUMENGU: His hands were handcuffed on his back.

MR MNQANDI: And the members that you were going with, did anyone ...(indistinct) onto the deceased or was he walking on his own?

MR GUMENGU: He walking on his own.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the inside of the house, how many were you?

MR GUMENGU: It was two of us, he was the third one.

MR MNQANDI: And you said that you asked for a key from him, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Where did the key come from?

MR GUMENGU: He pointed a key in different places of which I can't remember whether he said it was in his pocket or on top of the door, but I thought that I had no right to check the key and open his home. But because of the instructions that we got, he was the one who was supposed to go inside first, so I took off the handcuffs and then he opened the door.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, you say you think you've got the right to kill him but you haven't got the right to walk into his home?

MR GUMENGU: We do have a right to in homes, but not before him because of different incidents that had happened before whereby our members found themselves being targets.

MR MNQANDI: And the sole purpose of your going to his home was to look for weapons, is it correct?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And when you went to this door he had indicated that this was the door in which the weapons we kept.

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: And I take it that you were armed.

MR GUMENGU: I had my 9mm with me and other members had their weapons with them.

MR MNQANDI: Can you explain exactly how it happened that he was inside the room on his own?

MR GUMENGU: It happened this way, after I took off the handcuffs he took the key, he put the key in the door and we were standing behind him. What he did he pretended as if he had difficulty opening the door, but what he did is he went inside the house quickly and then he closed the door quickly and after doing that I held onto the key, trying to open the key(sic) but I found out that he was holding the key on the other side and then I asked him to open the door. After some few minutes, I think one minute or two minutes, he opened the door, he slightly opened the door, he was bending and he had a handgrenade in his hand and because that was the passage I could see that he could not be able to see us where we were standing at that time.

MR MNQANDI: When he was opening the door, how far from him were you standing next to the door?

MR GUMENGU: I was close, I was very close to him.

MR MNQANDI: Can you indicate to us.

MR GUMENGU: ...(no English interpretation)

MR MNQANDI: And your colleague, how far was he?

MR GUMENGU: He was coming, my colleague was coming on my back but because the passage was dark I couldn't see where he was standing. I think maybe he was towards the judge there, but I did not know or did not see where he was. But what I realised afterwards is that he had passed me and he went to the other side but I hadn't seen him. When I was calling "grenade!", he was on the other side.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Mnqandi, if I could just ask, I just want to clear up something.

When the deceased got into the room, you said he put the key in the door, opened the door and he went into the room and then he slammed the door, is that right?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: So the key was still outside, he didn't lock the door from inside?

MR GUMENGU: Can you please repeat, Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: So am I correct in inferring that the key to the door was still in the door on the outside, where he had used it to open it? So when he got into the room he couldn't lock the room, he just pushed the door closed.

MR GUMENGU: He took out, the key was with him inside.

JUDGE MILLER: So you're saying that he opened the door with the key and then got the handle and opened the door to get in and then took out the key, managed to get in, closed the door, put the key back in the keyhole and lock it, while you did nothing? Is that what you say?

MR GUMENGU: What I noticed is that at the time he was pretending as if he had difficulty opening the door, he was taking the key out of the door and because it was dark in that passage we could not see clearly. That was the trick he used because when he was pretending as if there was a problem opening that door, it was the time when he was taking the key out. Because when I was trying to open the key was not there, it was inside with him, so that was a trick because he pretended as if he had difficulties opening the door.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you. Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: Mr Gumengu, as an officer who was going there accompanying someone who had indicated that he was going to a place where there were weapons, I take it you had to be very cautious on every step that he was going to take that day.

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: You could expect that he would make any move at any time.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is so.

MR MNQANDI: I find it then strange that you were able to allow him to get into the room, lock himself without you being able to do anything.

MR GUMENGU: It did happen that way because it was the trick that he used. Even though we had covered all his tricks according to your work, but he tricked us using this way and what he did had surprised us because when we went there he pretended as if he was cooperating with us but then he pretended that he had a problem with the key and he also had an advantage that it was dark in that veranda. So that is how he tricked us.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Gumengu, was this an ordinary key that you put in a lock or was it a yale lock type of lock? What sort of lock was it?

MR GUMENGU: It was not a padlock, it was an ordinary house key.

JUDGE MILLER: An ordinary house key but not a yale lock, not one of those flat keys, it was one of the long keys with the stem and the look behind it.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, one of the long keys.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, while we are on this point, why did you remove the handcuffs?

MR GUMENGU: It was because he had to take the key and open the house so that if he had booby-trapped the door he would not be saved, or if there was going to be a firing from inside or maybe of there were people inside, he would be the first one to be hit.

CHAIRPERSON: But why do you have to remove the handcuffs for that purpose? Why do you have to remove the handcuffs to get him to unlock the door?

MR GUMENGU: He was going to be able to open the door while he was handcuffed, he was not going to be able to open the door while still handcuffed.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not? Why can't you unlock a door if you're handcuffed?

MR GUMENGU: According to my knowledge if a person is handcuffed on his back he would not be able to open the door, that was not possible, and we also thought that we had handcuffed his hands on his - his hands on his back, so we did not expect him to open the door while handcuffed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and if you cuff his hands in the front, why can't he open a door?

MR GUMENGU: We did not handcuff him on the front, we handcuffed him on the back because according to our instructions we were not allowed to handcuff them on the front, we had to handcuff them on the back.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but for the purpose of opening the door, to neutralise any tricks that he might have with booby-traps and making a sudden move on you, why can't his hands be cuffed in the front?

MR GUMENGU: We couldn't do that Sir, because we had a rule that we are not supposed to handcuff a person from the front because if anything had happened, the department would blame us that we had handcuffed that person from the front, so we had to follow the rules to handcuff the person from behind and a person was supposed to be the one who was in front and opens the door all the time.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, your answer seems to lack a bit of logic, Mr Gumengu, you say you couldn't put handcuffs in the front because you weren't allowed to by the department, right?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: But it's better to have a person in your detention completely free than if you handcuff him in the front, is that what you say?

MR GUMENGU: No, it is not like that, what I'm trying to explain is, according to the regulations we had to handcuff a person on the back ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: We know, but what Judge Potgieter was asking you, was saying, okay you handcuffed him at the back to comply with regulations, now you get to a situation where you want him for some reason or other, to open the door, instead of you just putting in the key and pulling down the handle, you wanted him to do that. So you undo the handcuffs from behind because he can't open the door himself, why didn't you put it in front? When you got him from behind, why didn't you handcuff him again in the front and then say okay, open the door?

MR GUMENGU: That didn't occur to us because we did not want to change the rule, we just wanted him to open the door.

MR MNQANDI: What was wrong Mr Gumengu, in your opening the door for him and then allowing him to get inside the house before you entered the house?

MR GUMENGU: Can you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR MNQANDI: Yes. I'm asking what was wrong in your opening the door for him and then letting him get inside the room first before you did?

MR GUMENGU: We were running away from the booby-traps in the door.

MR MNQANDI: Surely the booby-traps would come into effect when you open the door, isn't it?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: Then if you allow him to be the first to enter, then the booby-trap would catch him.

MR GUMENGU: When you put in a key in the door, maybe a booby-trap would work but it is also possible for you to put the key and then open the door and then the booby-trap would catch up on you, but it depends on the person who was putting those booby-traps. And secondly, a person who would be inside, it depends on when he wants to shoot, when you put in the key or when you open the door. So it will all depend on the person who was planning all this. We had to be careful so that we cannot be involved.

When you are from the office or when you are at work, you had to guarantee that you come back alive and the person or the target or the victim's life would depend on the circumstances. So we had to be safe all the time. Even if the booby-trap had worked when the key was put in or when the door was opened, he had to be the one to be caught by the booby-trap.

MR MNQANDI: Okay. My instructions are that the door in question was not even locked on the day in question.

MR GUMENGU: I would not agree with that because he took out the key, whether he took it out from the pocket or on top of the door, but he took out the key to open the door and he used the key to open that door. So if you put in a key you can hear that that person is putting in a key in the door. The fact that the door was not locked is not true.

MR MNQANDI: In fact my instructions are that the deceased at the time was not even staying at his homestead, ...(indistinct) that there was someone else using the room.

MR GUMENGU: Whatever happened, the fact is he wanted to show us where the handgrenades were and that was his homestead, so I can't dispute the fact that he was not staying there but at that time he said that he had kept the grenades there. So even if he was not sleeping at his home, he would have kept the grenades there.

MR MNQANDI: Can you dispute the fact that that room was not locked?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I do dispute that.

MR MNQANDI: Did you in fact before you came into the room, check if it was locked?

MR GUMENGU: When I was in the passage I asked him whether this room was locked or not, he said it was locked. I asked where the key was, he then pointed where the key was, of which I can't remember where but it was not far from where we were because he did not move from the position that he was in. I asked him to open the door, so there was this problem of the handcuffs and I had to remove the handcuffs and he got a chance to go inside the house alone.

MR MNQANDI: The door next to which you were standing, was it in a passageway or was it a door that was standing on its own?

MR GUMENGU: Which door?

MR MNQANDI: The door that the deceased was opening.

MR MALAN: Sorry, it seems as if there's some trouble with his microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Interpreter, just ask if there's a problem. Alright, the problem seems to be solved. Yes, Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: I say the door which was being opened by the deceased, was it a door that was standing on its own or was it in a passageway?

MR GUMENGU: When you go in that house, we went in through the kitchen door and we went in with the passage, in the passage, there was a door on the right-hand side but he did not open that door, he opened the door on the left-hand side and if you look through the window, there was a tank in that side of that room opposite the window. There was another door on the right-hand side, but it was not the one he opened, he opened the door on the left-hand side.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, the door on the right, was it directly opposite the door that you were entering, or the deceased was opening?

MR GUMENGU: It was not directly opposite but it was on the side, but not directly opposite but there was a small gap.

MR MNQANDI: When the deceased opened the door for the second time, when you alleged that he was handling this handgrenade, how far from the door were you standing?

MR GUMENGU: I was standing next to the door because when he closed the door from inside, I went back and then I spoke with him and then he opened at that time. I was standing towards the wall that was facing with him, I was looking in the direction of his door and there was another door next to me.

MR MNQANDI: How much elapsed between the time that he closed the door and the time that he reopened it?

MR GUMENGU: It was not that much, I think it was a minute or two minutes because all that thing happened quickly. It happened quickly.

MR MNQANDI: And how was the visibility during this time?

MR GUMENGU: I could not see my colleague in the passage, it was dark but I could see him because of that window that was opposite that tank but he could not see me, but I could see him, he was still trying to locate where we were in the passage. But at that time I was able to see him, that he had a handgrenade because of that window. That is why I called out saying "grenade!" and then I went, I dived through the side of the kitchen and I heard a gunshot from my colleague and after that I heard the explosion of the handgrenade.

MR MNQANDI: You don't know where your colleague was at the time?

MR GUMENGU: The last time I saw him was when we were going in, he was on my back, behind me, but he told me that he went on the other side, on my right side. When I was calling out, saying "grenade!", he had seen that grenade and he was in the right view. It was dark in the passage and I was trying to talk with this man who was inside.

I concentrated on that so that he can open the door, so that we can do the job and then go out. So he surprised us and did what he did. And when my colleague told me that he had passed me whilst I was still negotiating, he went to the right side, I didn't dispute what he said.

MR MNQANDI: And at the time that he fired the first shot, was he back to the position you were in or did he fire from the position that he was standing in?

MR GUMENGU: ...(no English interpretation)

MR MNQANDI: Your colleague.

MR GUMENGU: The position that he was standing in when he was shooting I did not see him, but he told me where he was because immediately when I was shouting out saying "grenade!", trying to warn him to take a cover, I took cover. So I was on the left side where we went in the kitchen side. So I heard afterwards from him where he was, in which position he was, but I did not see him.

JUDGE MILLER: Did the door of the room open into the passage or into the bedroom? If you opened the door, did it swing into the passage or did it swing into the bedroom?

MR GUMENGU: Inside the room.

MR MNQANDI: What I would like to find out from you, after you had taken cover was your colleague, or did he move from where he was standing, to face the door of the room where the deceased was?

MR GUMENGU: When I called out "grenade!", I think he would be the one who is going to explain which position he was because I was sure that I had a backup, he was my backup, because the last time I saw him was when we were going inside, he was on the left-hand side. But I did not see him when he was passing me, so I would like you to ask him that question so that he could be the one who can explain, because I did not see him when he was changing positions.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that unless the shots were fired from a position which is directly opposite the door, there could be no way that from any other position in the passage that one would be able to hit the deceased when he was inside the house.

MR GUMENGU: Maybe, for sure when he was shooting he was standing opposite the door, that is true, maybe he was standing in front of the door.

MR MNQANDI: This is exactly what I find to be strange, that you had shouted to him to take cover because you had seen a grenade and at that instance he would just go opposite the door to be in a position to shoot at the deceased.

MR GUMENGU: That depended on him, on how he had positioned himself when I called out "grenade!". That is why I don't want to answer for him, I don't want to account on how far he was because I did not look at him. The last time I saw him was when we were going inside the house. He is the one who will explain how far he was from me when I was calling out "grenade!" and how he could be able to see him.

MR MNQANDI: The first time when the deceased opened the door holding the grenade, can you tell us how far he was from you as you were standing opposite the door?

MR GUMENGU: He was not far, he was near because I was standing towards the wall of the passage and then he opened that door on his direction.

JUDGE MILLER: Perhaps if you could indicate a distance in this room. When you saw the deceased with the grenade in his hand, approximately how far away was he from you? If you can just indicate a distance.

MR GUMENGU: As I am saying, when we opened that door ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: No I mean you've told us, but we don't know how wide the passage is, if you could just point out more-or-less how far he was from you.

MR GUMENGU: When he was opening the door, I think maybe he was in the corner of this table.

JUDGE MILLER: Approximately what, three paces, two paces.

MR MNQANDI: About three paces, yes.

JUDGE MILLER: Two to three paces. - perhaps two paces.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that the door at which you entered and the other door are directly opposite each other.

JUDGE MILLER: Is that the kitchen door?

MR MNQANDI: No, it's another one.

JUDGE MILLER: Oh the other one. On either side of the passage?

MR MNQANDI: They are on either side of the passage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is that possible?

MR GUMENGU: It is possible, but it's not directly opposite because I was not standing towards the door when I was standing there, I was standing towards the wall but there was a door next to me but it's not directly opposite. Even though I am not staying there, maybe when I saw it it was not like that.

MR MNQANDI: After - how many shots were fired?

MR GUMENGU: I heard several shots, but I didn't count how many, but there were several shots.

MR MNQANDI: And they were all coming from your colleague's firearm?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, they were coming from my colleague's firearm.

MR MNQANDI: Did you yourself have any chance to fire any shots?

MR GUMENGU: No.

MR MNQANDI: What prevented you?

MR GUMENGU: When I took cover at that time and the position that I was in negotiating, I was not waiting for something like that to happen and when I took cover because I saw the grenade, I wanted to save my life and then I waited for something that was going to follow. So I did not shoot, I went to the left side taking cover and waiting for something that would follow, and then I heard a gunshot afterwards and then a handgrenade after that.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know how long the shooting took?

MR GUMENGU: It was only seconds, it was only a few seconds.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that when you came to the deceased's homestead you were in fact holding onto the deceased, he was not walking on his own.

MR GUMENGU: That is not true, there was no need for us to do that.

MR MNQANDI: And I'm further instructed that when you came there was a man who asked you what the purpose of your visit was and who wanted to get inside the house with you but was prevented from doing so.

MR GUMENGU: I did meet that man or talk to him, maybe my colleague, the one who was behind me, saw him and spoke to him, but I did not speak to that man, I did not see him.

MR MNQANDI: I'm further instructed that in fact there were no weapons inside the house and any weapons that were used on that day might have been weapons that were brought by yourselves.

MR GUMENGU: When we went to that house we were told that there were weapons inside the house and after that I got the report that there weapons that were found when the house was searched. I didn't search that house. After all this incident happened I tried to find ways, or I tried to call the police but I found out that there were grenades that were found after the house was being searched. But what I'm sure of is I saw the handgrenade on his hand, so if there's someone who's saying there was no handgrenade there, there was nothing else that blasted on his hand but the handgrenade.

MR MNQANDI: I find it very strange that you, Mr Gumengu had instructions to kill the deceased, who was the person who was unable to fire a single shot on that day.

MR GUMENGU: It is not strange to me because I knew my time, I knew that I would do that when I find the opportunity, so the situation at that time did not allow me to do that. Maybe if he was arrested on that day and released on the next day or the following year, I was going to continue with my job as per instructions. And if I had gone there with the intention to shoot at him, I would reveal that here and say that I shot at him per instructions.

So if I wanted to shoot at him I would have shot at him on the way, there was no need for me to take him to his home. Even if he was arrested on that day and released, I would find the time to do as I was instructed. Or if Capt Mfazwe changed the instructions and said that we must leave him, I would have done that. So at that time the situation did not allow me to do so. And other units had other instructions to arrest him, so I would not make a mistake of shooting a person who had already been arrested on the orders that he must be arrested.

MR MNQANDI: But you had orders to kill him anyway and you knew that you had indemnity from all the authorities, so I don't see what prevented you from killing him there.

MR GUMENGU: What prevented me is the situation, the situation did not allow me to do it at that time even though I was going to do it when the opportunity is right. Yes, I was going to get indemnity, I was not going to be arrested, that is true because I was working for the government at that time.

MR MNQANDI: In fact I want to put it to you that after your failed attempt on the deceased, the second occasion was your way of making sure that you had executed your instructions - if there were instructions, and you did in fact kill the deceased on that day to prevent yourself from being prosecuted.

MR GUMENGU: It is not like that, I do follow instructions and I was going to kill him when the opportunity was right, but not at that time because the situation was not right for me.

MR MNQANDI: I just want to go back to the incident when he opened the door and went inside, you say he opened the door and went inside and locked himself.

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And after that he came back after a few seconds, holding a handgrenade.

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Did you see whether the pin on the handgrenade was on or off?

MR GUMENGU: I did not see whether the pin was on or off, what I saw was that he had a handgrenade on his hand and the position, the way he was holding it, he was not going to hand it over to us, he was preparing to throw the grenade. That is why I called out and said "grenade!" and then I took cover.

MR MNQANDI: What colour is a grenade?

MR GUMENGU: All the colours are there in a grenade.

JUDGE MILLER: No, I think what Mr Mnqandi is asking you is, what colour was this particular grenade, the one that you saw in the deceased's hand, what colour was that one?

MR GUMENGU: I saw a grenade on his hand, but because it was dark although there was light because of the window, the colour I saw was brownish.

MR MNQANDI: And this light that you were able to see the handgrenade from was the light that was coming through a window?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, it was a light coming through the window.

MR MNQANDI: I want to put it to you that you couldn't have seen a handgrenade on the deceased's hand.

MR GUMENGU: I saw it and I was in a position that I could see it.

MR MNQANDI: Besides the light from the window there was no other light.

MR GUMENGU: There was no other light and that was a house that even if the windows are closed, there would be some light, but there was no other light except the one coming through the window.

MR MNQANDI: Are you able to tell when investigations were done, what type of handgrenade was found on the scene? Was it of South African or foreign origin?

MR GUMENGU: I heard that there were of foreign origin. I did not see them because I was not interested in what was happening afterwards.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that investigations revealed that the handgrenade that was used there was that which belonged to the police.

JUDGE MILLER: Which police, the Russian Police or the South African Police or the Transkeian Police?

MR MNQANDI: Transkeian Police, yes.

JUDGE MILLER: Transkeian Police.

MR GUMENGU: The police that were with me did not have a grenade with them. If that a handgrenade from the police outside, maybe it was like that, but it was not from the South African Police.

JUDGE MILLER: How can you say it was not from the - if you say afterwards you had no interest in it and you just saw a brownish thing? Are you saying that you were able to identify it yourself as not being a South African grenade?

MR GUMENGU: According to the report I got it was said that the grenade that was found was from outside.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know what damage was caused to the room on that day?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I saw the damage the following day and the other days because I went there.

MR MNQANDI: Can you describe what damage was caused.

MR GUMENGU: There were bullets that went through the door and the roof of the house was also damaged. I can't remember whether, I think it was a bed that was damaged, but the windows were not broken.

MR MNQANDI: Was there no damage to the wall directly opposite the door?

MR GUMENGU: There was a bullet on the doorframe, but I'm not sure about the wall because what was happening there, they were counting the bullets that they could see, the bullet holes.

MR MNQANDI: In fact my instructions are that on the wall opposite the door there was a big gash. - on the floor, just next to the wall. Directly opposite the door.

MR GUMENGU: I did not see that because the shooting was happening inside the room. Starting from the door - I saw the bullets starting from the door and the damages inside, I didn't notice any damage on the wall in the passage. Maybe it was damaged, but I did not see it.

MR MNQANDI: Was there any damage, according to you, that was caused by the hand grenade?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: Where was this damage?

MR GUMENGU: The roof of that house was damaged by the handgrenade, that is why there were holes all over that roof. And again, I think it was a bed or a wardrobe, I think it was a wardrobe that was also damaged in the corners at the bottom. And I think that when the grenade fell, it hit the wardrobe. If I still remember well, I think it was the wardrobe that was damaged.

MR MNQANDI: Where according to you did the grenade fall, was it inside the room or outside the room?

MR GUMENGU: Inside the room.

MR MNQANDI: How far from the place where the deceased was standing when you saw him?

MR GUMENGU: It was not far, it was the position that he was in because there was a wardrobe and then when he was opening the door he would open the door on the other side, the other side was a wardrobe, so when the grenade fell it fell on the corner of the wardrobe, it hit the wardrobe. That is why the debris of the grenade went straight to the roof, hit the corner and then it went up. Because when you open the door the first thing you see on the left-hand side, was a wardrobe, so which means that when the grenade fell, it fell in the corner of the wardrobe and it damaged the wardrobe.

MR MNQANDI: Would you say the deceased had a change to throw the grenade?

MR GUMENGU: I think he did not get the chance because when he was still thinking about doing it, there were shots fired. What happened is that the grenade just fell after he was shot.

MR MNQANDI: Why would he not have thrown the grenade immediately when he opened the door?

MR GUMENGU: He wanted to locate our position first and he was not aware that the window, there was light through the window so we could see him. So he wanted to locate our position and then throw the grenade, and he had to be sure that he was in a safe place so that he can not be affected by the grenade.

MR MNQANDI: When the deceased was shot, were you acting in self-defence?

JUDGE MILLER: That's the "you" plural?

MR MNQANDI: "You" plural, yes.

MR GUMENGU: That is correct, Sir.

MR MNQANDI: You have applied for amnesty for the killing of the deceased, why do you see it necessary that you should apply for amnesty if you were acting in self-defence?

MR GUMENGU: First of all the deceased, we were charged for his murder. Secondly, he was not arrested for criminal actions, but he had a political record. His career was politics and at that time we were also serving the politics of the government, so if a person died, we cannot say that is a criminal matter because he did not steal anything.

So we were there for political reasons and when he would be arrested he would be arrested for political reasons. If there was nothing that involved politics there was no reason for us to be in his home, he was the enemy of the government of the day, that is why we decided to apply for amnesty, that is why we thought that we qualify.

MR MNQANDI: At the time that you killed - or you as the policeman, that you killed the deceased, there was no political motivation, you were acting in self-defence, isn't it?

MR GUMENGU: We were doing this in self-defence, but there were political motivations. We went from the office for political reasons and all what we did was politically motivated. The issue of self-defence happened within the scope of the political motivation.

MR MNQANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mnqandi. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.

Mr Gumengu, I understand that at the time when you shot at the deceased, at Ngolo in Lebote, that is the first instance, you were shooting him whilst he was running away from your colleagues, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: I was not shooting him because he was running away, I was shooting at him because I had to do that. Even if he was not moving, but it happened ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: That's not my question. My question is, you shot at him whilst he was running away from your colleagues, is that not correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he was running away.

MR MAPOMA: And your colleagues were giving a chase at him.

MR GUMENGU: Sorry?

MR MAPOMA: And your colleagues were giving a chase at him at that time.

MR GUMENGU: I am not sure if they were actually chasing him.

MR MAPOMA: I have a statement here on bundle number 2, the supplementary bundle, from your colleague then, Chris Sholo. On page 10, just the second paragraph I think, line 5 - in fact I want to read to you, he says -Mr Sholo -

Didn't you give chase at all?

MR GUMENGU: Not at all, but he ran towards the direction where I was.

MR MAPOMA: You confirm that he escaped from the motor vehicle?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, as he was running away I can say he actually escaped.

MR MAPOMA: Then can't I suggest that you killed him because he was escaping for lawful custody?

MR GUMENGU: No, that was not the intention, I was killing him because I was instructed to do so.

MR MAPOMA: I have got you testifying here to suggesting that you are a person who likes adhering to the regulations in your police force, I've got that impression, that you were quite honest in adhering to the regulations of how the police practice is made, especially when it comes to apprehension of the arrestees. Is my perception about you wrong?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, that is true.

MR MAPOMA: What is it that is true actually?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I adhered the rules in the police force, I do as instructed. If I'm instructed to release someone, I do that, if I'm instructed to kill someone, I do as told.

MR MAPOMA: Now am I given an impression that during your period in your service there were orders to kill, in the police force?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And apart from the man who is now late, Mr Mfazwe, who else do you of having ever issued orders to kill, in the police force?

MR GUMENGU: Such instructions would be issued but it was not that direct, but you would realise that this instruction is not against the killing, but it wouldn't come as direct as Mr Mfazwe would issue it. And the example, Gen Kauwe once summonsed me to his office and he actually instructed me to go to a place called Nzamba in Mbizana where there were two MK members, he told me to remain there, he mentioned straight away that he was there to guarantee my life, but those people's lives were not guaranteed, if I can bring them alive or dead they would accept that because those people have already killed a lot of people. But what was most important in this instruction was the fact that my life was guaranteed and anything I would be involved in, I have to be sure of what was going to happen ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I understand, he guaranteed the cover-up, is that what you're saying? He guaranteed that you will have a cover-up.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. But he was not direct that you must go and kill those people.

MR GUMENGU: He was direct because he said if the situation prevailing at the time was suitable, I had to kill them because for whatever mistake when trying to apprehend them, I had to kill them and I had to decide at the spot what to do, whether to kill them or apprehend them.

MR MAPOMA: But the deceased man now, Mr Mfazwe, gave you precise orders that you must shoot and kill Zokwe on sight, is that what you want to tell this Committee?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is true.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thanks, just briefly.

Mr Gumengu, in your trial - we've got before us also in bundle 2, a copy of the indictment, that's the charge sheet and also a document on page 4 called a "Summary of Substantial Facts", which is made in terms of Section 149 of the Criminal Procedure Act. If I could just briefly explain to you, this summary of Statement of Facts is a document that is prepared by the prosecuting staff, right, and if your matter were to go to trial, this document would be handed in or read out into the record. It contains a very short description of what the State case against you would be and the person who drafts this document is expected to be able to lead evidence to substantiate any fact that he or she discloses in this document. It's a brief summary of the State's evidence. Whether the evidence they lead will be accepted by the Court or not, that's another story, but when they draft this document they base it on evidence that they have in their possession. Now I just want to read to you, just for you comment, from page 6 of the bundle, it's on the fourth line. I'll read from there, and this is describing the incident that took place on the 11th of January, this is from what the prosecuting authority put in their Statement of Facts, essential facts -

What do you say to that? Which if this matter went to trail, one would expect the State would be able to lead some evidence to substantiate that. Whether that evidence be accepted by the Court or not is neither here nor there.

MR GUMENGU: This evidence that was going to raised by the Prosecutor, I'm sure that he had no proof because that was not the case.

JUDGE MILLER: And then also just again for your comment, I again refer to this document contained in the supplementary bundle. This is the statement from one, Shologu, I think he's known as Chris Shologu. I'll just read this for your comment, and I know that this is not evidence, it's merely an unsigned statement, but we have it before us and I think it's fair that you comment on this. I'm reading from page 9. He's describing, you're now in the motorcar, this is the first incident when you're going to the quarries. You're now in the motor vehicle with Mr Zokwe and this is what Mr Shologu says, and it's the last sentence on page 9 -

What do you say to that?

MR GUMENGU: I do not know that, but that was never mentioned in my presence.

JUDGE MILLER: And then comes the passage which was read out to you by Mr Mnqandi - sorry, or Mr Mapoma, and then says here, he describes that you chased him, he ran away and you chased him. He says -

What do you say to that? Is that wrong?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that was not the case, that is a mistake.

JUDGE MILLER: Can you think of any reason why Mr Shologu should come and make such statements if there's no truth to them? Why should he say something like this?

MR GUMENGU: Perhaps Mr Shologu was making a statement as the accused. I am not sure if that was directed to the TRC or to the police during their investigation, or at the time he was merely doing that to protect himself, but that was not the right story.

JUDGE MILLER: Do you agree that he was one of the people with you in the vehicle in the first incident, when Mr Zokwe was shot?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he was there.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: This training you underwent in Groblersdal in demolition and the training you gave evidence about, to enable you to break into houses, was it specifically to equip you with the expertise of doing some covert operations?

MR GUMENGU: That training I never acquired it in Groblersdal, I was trained to that effect here in Butterworth and again in Johannesburg. Yes, the intention is to make sure that whenever given some assignment by the government to go and fetch something or open a certain office and get something there, I have to do that.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, those assignments were - the nature of those assignments were covert operations. In other words, they were something illegal, not the ordinary duties of a policeman?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Can I just ask your comment on your affidavit in the main bundle on page 16, it's in Afrikaans, and this deals with the first attempt on the life of the deceased. I will do a rough translation of what is said here in the first paragraph, towards the middle of that paragraph, dealing with the situation after you had loaded the deceased into your vehicle. You say that - about halfway down that first paragraph, that you had confronted the deceased, you ordered him to get into your vehicle and you then ordered the driver of the vehicle to drive out of the city. And then you say, in the next sentence, and that's what I really want you to focus on. On the outskirts of the city you ordered the deceased to get out of the vehicle and to follow you, but after a short distance he freed himself and escaped. Now is that what happened, or what?

MR GUMENGU: He never got out driving a car, we are the people who were driving the car with him. I alighted from the vehicle leaving my colleagues who later alighted from the vehicle and I went to the dongas because I wanted to relieve myself, but I think there was a mistake, that it was as if he was the person who was driving the car. He never drove the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you misunderstood it. What I really want you to respond to is, this one sentence that says that you ordered the deceased out of the vehicle on the outskirts of the city, you ordered him to get out of the vehicle and to follow you and after a short distance he freed himself and he escaped. And then it carries on to say that you shot him. Now did you order him out of the vehicle, did you ask him to follow you, did then free himself and escape?

MR GUMENGU: He was told by them, but I was not in the car at the time because I was relieving myself in the dongas. He escaped in their hands. I was not behind him, but I was rather in front.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you see this is your affidavit that I'm referring to and it's deposed to on the 10th of June 1998, and I'm asking you about that specific sentence here in your statement. Now is this right or not? Is this true or not, this sentence which says that you ordered the deceased to get out of the vehicle on the outskirts of the city, he followed you, then he freed himself and he escaped and you shot him?

MR GUMENGU: No, that is not what happened, that is a mistake there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, Mr Malan, have you got any re-examination?

MR MALAN: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I would just like to ascertain from Mr Gumengu - you had received instructions to kill the deceased and you must have formed some way or other of how you're going to execute your task. Where did you think of executing the deceased?

MR GUMENGU: I knew that wherever I meet him I was going to shoot him.

MR MALAN: But you indeed met him in the city, or in Umtata and you didn't shoot him, so you must have had some plan to shoot him at some stage at some place in cold blood, broad daylight in the middle of Umtata, or would you prefer to do it somewhere in an obscure place like a bush or wherever?

MR GUMENGU: I was supposed to shoot him at spot whereby no-one would see me or him.

MR MALAN: For what reason must nobody see you, because you were backed by the government?

MR GUMENGU: Although I was backed by the government, there were units who were involved in some secret operations. I can say that they knew that there was something called human rights violations, but the government would be involved in clandestine operations, that's why there were special operations(?) who would be involved in these clandestine operations to make sure no-one regards the government as their enemy because of such operations.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. Yes, Mr Gumengu, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, we just want an indication as to what remains in this matter. We have more work than this in this session, so we would like to see what the rest of our session would look like. Mr Malan, are you in a position to indicate to us? Are you intending to call any other witnesses over and above the applicants?

MR MALAN: Mr Chairperson, I just learnt today that one of the senior officers is apparently available here. I haven't had the chance to have a consultation with him, but my intention was to at some stage lead the second witness and as a third witness to testify on behalf of both of them as a mere background. I think it will be in the interests of all parties concerned to have an independent person that was there chief at some stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, no that's fine. I just wanted an idea of what time we're talking about. So that's a general witness?

MR MALAN: That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who will speak about the general situation.

MR MALAN: I don't presume it's going to take much time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it shouldn't. So that would be the sum-total as you are presently advised, in respect of the applicants?

MR MALAN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mnqandi, what is your position, are you going to lead any evidence in this matter?

MR MNQANDI: Yes, we are going to lead about two or three witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Two or three?

MR MNQANDI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Eye witnesses or what?

MR MNQANDI: The mother of the deceased and two eye witnesses, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So the mother of the deceased as a sort of a background and two eye witnesses?

MR MALAN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, there's one witness I intend calling, in fact just to confirm what is contained in the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well I must say that we intend to finish off the testimony in this matter before we rise here tomorrow, because at this stage our session here is until - initially it was until sometime towards the middle of the day tomorrow, but we are not in a position to allow this matter to be turned into a partly-heard thing, so we are going to finish it up tomorrow.

We have an idea - it looks as if it's going to be quite a stiff schedule, but thank you, we just wanted some indication as to what still must be done in this matter. Ja, there are some suggestions of ways and means. But at this stage at least we will adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock, in order to carry on with this matter and finalise it. We're adjourned.