HELD AT: THOHOYANDOU

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. For the record, I am Judge Pillay, I am going to ask my two colleagues to announce themselves for the purpose of the record, and so to the various representatives.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Chris de Jager.

ADV SIGODI: Sibongile Sigodi.

MR NDOU: I am Patrick Ndou, I am the Attorney appearing on behalf of the applicants in all these matters.

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the Leader of Evidence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: My name is Stephan van Rensburg, I appear on behalf of the victims in this enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: For those who are interested in those things, a translation of the evidence into the Venda language will be found on channel 3 and the English channel is channel 2. I have been asked to inform everybody in this room, to see to it that all cellphones are switched off, thank you. I understand we are starting with what is referred to as incident 2 on the roll?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, it is the continuation of a hearing on the incident relating to the murder of Edward Mavhunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ndou?

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members. This is an application by three applicants, three remaining applicants from the previous hearing which was held last year.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on Mr Ndou, I just want to get something on record. There are according to our list, 16 matters that were set down for this hearing?

MR MAPOMA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to confirm that the following have been withdrawn - matters 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 and 13?

MR MAPOMA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And in regard to matter 2, applicant Maivha, what is his position?

MR NDOU: As I understand Honourable Chairman, I spoke to some of the applicants now, I understand they have managed to get hold of him in Johannesburg, he will possibly be here today, his affidavit is here. If he does arrive, he will just sign his affidavit and then we can bring it in.

CHAIRPERSON: How long are we going to wait for him then?

MR NDOU: The understanding is if he doesn't turn up, we will just finalise the matter as it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Without him? But if he has indicated a willingness and intention to participate in this application, then he has that right, isn't it?

MR NDOU: Yes, he does have that right, but as I understood from one of his co-applicants, he managed to get hold of him and he promised to be here today from Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: When did they get hold of him?

MR NDOU: On Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he not here?

MR NDOU: No, he is not yet here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a contact number that anybody can reach him?

MR NDOU: If I can have the Chairman's indulgence, let me just find out. Honourable Chairman, his co-applicant tells me that he spoke to him on Friday and he was told that he would leave by train on Sunday evening, as soon as he gets to Louis Trichard, he will take a taxi and come straight to the hearing. Sometimes we find the train arrives here around eight, nine and then they've got to take a taxi from Louis Trichard, which is 70 kilometres from here.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not sure whether he got onto the train or not, and whether he has arrived?

MR NDOU: All we can try to do is at tea time, to phone the number, he's got the number where they phone him all the time, so that we can find out if he is on his way or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, there is not going to be a tea time today, because we are in tea time already. Is it not possible to give us the number? Is it not possible to have that number, or your assistant, one of your assistants?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, on the last occasion when the majority of the applicants in this matter testified, did Mr Maivha hear that evidence?

MR NDOU: Yes, he did, he was here all the time. He was only released I think in early January.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, we will come back to matter 2 now. Matter 11, what is the position about Masera and Ntimane?

MR NDOU: As the Honourable Chairman pleases, I spoke now again to the applicant this morning, and he tells me he feels he is in a state in which he can testify. He will be prepared to proceed with the application.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Masera's position?

MR NDOU: What number is that?

CHAIRPERSON: Matter 11, Masera?

MR NDOU: Oh, Masera is the one who is together with Ntimane.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on, the Interpreters cannot hear.

MR NDOU: Okay, under incident 11, the two applicants John Tshepiso Masera and Rodgers Ntimane, those are the people who could not be traced, we have tried everything possible and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Like what?

MR NDOU: In fact we proceeded to their homes, and the Committee phoned their relatives and it appeared that they are no longer interested, they said they are out of prison, they are no longer interested in proceeding with the matter. Mr Abram Luhule can come and testify to that effect. That is why here, when we wrote the letter on the 3rd of May, we indicated that it seems that they are no longer interested, they should be removed from the roll of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand it, the official position is that they informed you as their legal representative that those were their wishes?

MR NDOU: Yes, they are no longer cooperative, they say they are out, they are out.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And matter 12, Sithavhane and Raphulu?

MR NDOU: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: What are their positions?

MR NDOU: Similarly, these ones right from the outset, they indicated the intention that they were not interested in proceeding with the matter, these are the people who were released some two, three years ago.

CHAIRPERSON: So as their legal representative, you are informing us ...

MR NDOU: That we will withdraw that application.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then let us proceed. Who are you calling?

MR NDOU: I am calling Johannes Makatu. Before I proceed Honourable Chairman, my assistant tells me that she has been trying to get hold of these people on the phone, the phone is just ringing, there is no reply from the telephone number, but we will try again when we adjourn and see how far we go.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makatu, what language would you prefer to use?

MR MAKATU: Venda.

CHAIRPERSON: So be it.

JOHANNES MAKATU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. You are the applicant in this matter and you reside at Mavhunga Village, is that correct?

MR MAKATU: Yes, it is correct.

MR NDOU: When were you born?

MR MAKATU: I was born on the 16th of July 1973.

MR NDOU: Is it correct that you are presently serving a 12 year prison sentence at the Thohoyandou Medium A Prison?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR MAKATU: Yes, I am from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makatu, you were in the hearing when all the other applicants testified in respect of the event in which you apply now for amnesty?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard what they had to say?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I heard all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with that?

MR MAKATU: Yes, definitely with everything, anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, what did you actually do in respect of that incident, what did you yourself do?

MR MAKATU: With regard to the incident, I threw stones to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at that meeting at the hall?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I attended, I used to attend various meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: No, do you remember the evidence was they met at the hall before they proceeded to the house of the deceased?

MR MAKATU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at that meeting?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you agreed with the reasoning and everything that was decided at the meeting in respect of what was going to happen to the deceased?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I agreed with all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you threw stones at the deceased?

MR MAKATU: Yes, but I was still intending to continue to indicate what I had done further.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you can carry on, I am going to give you a chance to tell me that. I just want to know, when you threw stones at the deceased, was it while the others, after coming from the hall and the others were attacking this house, is that the time you threw stones?

MR MAKATU: I threw stones by the time when the deceased started to attack us and then we retreated, we decided to fight him.'

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR MAKATU: I participated in the burning one of the cars which was in the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MAKATU: I also burnt the furniture which was in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MAKATU: Now there is nothing, now it is all.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all?

MR MAKATU: Yes, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: The deceased's wife, Rosinnah I think her name is, did you do anything to her?

MR MAKATU: No, I have done nothing to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her that day?

MR MAKATU: Yes, she was there, I saw her.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her trying to escape?

MR MAKATU: No, she didn't try to escape, but she was taken out of the house pitifully and taken to the chief's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see when she tried to get out of the house, that people threw stones at her or did you not see?

MR MAKATU: No, no, they were removed from the hut and they were taken away from the crowd and they were led to the chief's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NDOU: That is all Honourable Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Makatu, let's start off with that meeting that you attended before you proceeded to the deceased's house. Can you just repeat for us what was the decision that was taken at that meeting?

MR MAKATU: The decision taken was the one of asking the deceased to leave the village because he was no longer needed at Mavhunga's Village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Anything else?

MR MAKATU: The main aim was that only.

CHAIRPERSON: What would happen if he would refuse?

MR MAKATU: You mean refusing to vacate? I hope by the way in which people were prepared to talk to the deceased, if he refused, of course, they were going to use all powers in them so that he can vacate the place.

CHAIRPERSON: Including violence?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I think if people are in a mob, their reasoning capacity is different, when others are negotiating, others may resort to violence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about what you think, I am talking about what was decided if Mr Mavhunga refused to accede to the request of leaving the area for whatever reason, what would those people do to him? Was there such a decision or what?

MR MAKATU: There was no decision regarding if he refused to go, what will happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I am asking you, what did you think would happen?

MR MAKATU: I think if he was asked to leave and then he refused, I think the violence could happen.

CHAIRPERSON: The what?

MR MAKATU: The violence could have happened.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. So when you left the meeting, you knew that there was a possibility that violence can erupt from this whole procession? Is that correct?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I was aware that violence could occur.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When you received at the deceased's house, did you or anyone there in the group, in fact ask or tell the deceased to leave the area?

MR MAKATU: Yes, that person was there who asked him to leave because it was long that he was told and many attempts were made to the effect that he must leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who is the person who told the deceased to leave the area?

MR MAKATU: It is Abel Muhadi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where was the deceased at that stage when Abel asked him to leave?

MR MAKATU: On our arrival, the deceased was sitting in a lapa, seemingly he was eating food and then he proceeded and went to him and asked him to leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, and what was his response to that request to leave the village?

MR MAKATU: The deceased refused to leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did he forward any reason why he is refusing to leave the village?

MR MAKATU: I didn't hear anything about the reasons why he didn't want to leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What did you hear, did you hear him refusing? Did you hear the deceased refusing to leave the village?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I agree that he was refusing to go, because several attempts were made to the effect that he must leave the village and he was always refusing.

MR VAN RENSBURG: We are not talking about other instances, we are talking about that specific day when you heard him. Did you hear him refusing to leave when he was asked by the group, on that day when he was killed?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I heard that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what did he say?

MR MAKATU: He said he won't go.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is that all?

MR MAKATU: Yes, that is all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did Abel or anyone in the group give a reason why they wanted him to leave?

MR MAKATU: Reasons were there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What reason die Abel or anyone ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not an answer to the question. There may have been reasons, the question is was he told why the people of the village wanted him to leave on that day? After the meeting it was decided they were going to go and tell him to leave, was he told why, then?

MR MAKATU: On that day he wasn't told.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you people just assume that he would have know, because he had been told every time previously?

MR MAKATU: Yes, that is that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you think everyone in the group knew what the reasons were why he must leave the area?

MR MAKATU: I agree that everybody in that group was aware what was the reason for him to vacate the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And even you knew the reason why he must leave?

MR MAKATU: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Give us the reason why you required him to leave?

MR MAKATU: The first reason is that he was suspected of practising witchcraft, the second reason is that he was against the Youth Congress of Mavhunga which was formed by then. That is all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, let's go on to the, what actually happened after he then refused to leave. Can you tell us when he said he wouldn't go, what happened then?

MR MAKATU: Immediately when he said he wouldn't go, people were shouting, saying that "we want you to go". After that then the deceased was throwing stones and spears to the people and the people decided to fight back.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And that is when the violence erupted that you expected to happen either before you arrived there on the scene?

MR MAKATU: Could you please repeat the question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is that now when the violence erupted that you suspected, even before you arrived on the scene, is that the violence that you referred to that you suspected to be erupting soon?

MR MAKATU: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. What was the name of this Youth Congress that you had at the time?

MR MAKATU: It was called Mavhunga Youth Congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And Mavhunga in this instance referred to the village where you lived, is that correct?

MR MAKATU: Yes, it is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What makes you think that the deceased was against the forming of this Youth Congress?

MR MAKATU: It is because wherever there was a meeting held of that Congress, it was found that he often harassed people so that people must disperse.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you notice or witness such harassment yourself?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I witnessed it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Could you tell us about that, at which meeting did that happen?

MR MAKATU: It happened while we were in the mountain and we held a meeting in the mountain and the deceased arrived with his children and they decided to throw us or pelt us with stones, but we didn't notice the direction of the stones, but I was one of the persons who were stoned by one of the stones, and I was also shamboked. The person whom I managed to identify was the deceased, because there was moonlight. That is all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was that a meeting of the Youth Congress that was held at night in the mountain, is that the instance that you are referring to?

MR MAKATU: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And who was chairing that specific meeting that you are now talking about, who was the Chairman?

MR MAKATU: The Chairperson by then if my memory still serves me well, it was Lawrence Modau.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Of these two reasons, namely that he was a witch and that he opposed the Youth Congress, which of these two reasons would you say in your own mind, was the strongest one which led to the people feeling that he must leave the village?

MR MAKATU: As far as I am concerned, I think they are both equal.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you tell us why the people wanted him to leave because he was a witch?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I can give evidence on that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please do.

MR MAKATU: To start with, during the time in which this violence happened, the people who were suspected of practising witchcraft were seen as people who were with the people who were in government, and we do understand if they are working with the government, or people in government, it means that they were people who were suppressing our rights, so that our rights cannot be realised. Another reason again is that during that time, we were trying to overthrow the Venda government or to make it ungovernable and then return it back to South Africa.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you ever see the deceased practising witchcraft?

MR MAKATU: No, I didn't see him, but I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe it, that what you heard?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I believed it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now this Mavhunga Youth Congress, what were the aims of this Youth Congress?

MR MAKATU: The aims of the Youth Congress was - because by the time in which Mandela was released from jail, there was the creation of organisations and then we decided to group, to ensure that we form our own Youth Congress in order to fight against apartheid and the Venda government which was ruling by then.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Just repeat again to me what were the aims or the objects of the Youth Congress? I am talking about the Mavhunga Youth Congress, what were their aims, what did they want to achieve?

MR MAKATU: May you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am asking about the aims, the objectives of the Mavhunga Youth Congress, not about other organisations, the Mavhunga Youth Congress, what were their aims and objectives?

MR MAKATU: The main aim of the youth was to fight against the Venda government which was ruling by then.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am not talking about the youth, I am talking about the Youth Congress, that specific organisation that you testified about, what were their aims and their objectives? Do you know?

MR MAKATU: They were not yet drafted by then.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you join the organisation?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I was a supporter.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, what did you think is worthwhile in that organisation politically?

MR MAKATU: I think what was worthwhile is that the organisations were unbanned and then in all villages, people formed a Youth Congress which were used, which will possibly help them in other things, with regard to the fighting with the Venda government which was ruling by then.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At that time, the youth came together and they decided to form a Congress or an organisation who would fight the government, but it wasn't formed officially yet, is that correct?

MR MAKATU: It was not yet officially formed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But it was in the process of being formed?

MR MAKATU: Yes, it was in the process of being formed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you were one of the supporters who would participate in this process of forming this new organisation?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I used to attend various meetings.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Makatu, I put it to you that this Mavhunga Youth Congress that you are talking about, such an organisation never existed.

MR MAKATU: That is not true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you have any documentary proof that such an organisation ever came into existence, either at the time that you are testifying about or afterwards, do you have any documentary proof that such a Youth Congress ever existed?

MR MAKATU: I don't have that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. Can you explain where there is no such documentation?

MR MAKATU: That I cannot explain.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Don't you think an organisation like that should have a constitution, should keep minutes of the meetings?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg tell me is it your specific instruction from your client that what you put to the witness was in fact the position?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is in fact my direct instructions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't recall but perhaps you can help me, when your client in the form of Mrs Mavhunga testified last time, I don't recall that that was ever her evidence, I don't further recall that any of the other applicants were confronted with that possibility that the Mavhunga Youth Congress in waiting as it were, never existed. I don't know, maybe I forget?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Mr Chairman, the reason why the witness that was called, Rosinnah, couldn't testify about that, is in fact because she was totally apolitical, she didn't have any knowledge of that specific facts. I have received instructions from her son regarding that, and you will also remember that during my cross-examination constantly, the political involvement, the structures, the leaders of that so-called organisation was put in dispute right from the beginning, in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: I say I cannot remember, I will take your word for it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Makatu, the question is, don't you find it strange because I certainly do, that you are testifying about an organisation that was so organised, that they could get a group of people together and do all these things, and yet there is not one scrap of paper to prove their existence, don't you find that strange?

MR MAKATU: The organisation was not yet formed officially and it was not yet in books, it was in the process of being formed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. But I understand your evidence that it was formed later, at a later stage, is that correct? Is that correct?

MR MAKATU: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is that you are testifying that at the time when the deceased was killed, this organisation was not officially formed yet. Now from that, I deduct that at a later stage it was in fact officially formed. My question relates to this later existence of this so-called Mavhunga Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's establish whether he can say if it was in fact formed later. Tell me, you say that at the time of this incident, the youth was preparing to launch the Mavhunga Youth Congress, certain meetings were being held, interrupted and so forth. After this incident, do you know whether the Congress was in fact launched? Can you tell us?

MR MAKATU: There was disturbances to the effect that the organisation was not formed officially.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether it exists today, the Mavhunga Youth Congress?

MR MAKATU: No, I've got no idea.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you agree with me that you are just talking about a loose assembly of people and not the Mavhunga Youth Congress, because it had no official existence?

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to the witness, all the evidence has been thus far that look, they were preparing to launch this and a number of them in fact referred to it as the Youth Congress when in fact strictly speaking, it could not have been so because it had not been launched yet. Perhaps we must bear that in mind, when we pose that question, the context in which he refers to the Youth Congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am perhaps not sure, perhaps the Chairman can assist me in rephrasing my question then.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makatu, when you talk about the Youth Congress of Mavhunga, are you talking about this group of youths that were preparing to launch and form the Mavhunga Youth Congress?

MR MAKATU: Yes, it is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will accept that. Mr Makatu, do you agree also that this let's call it, this loose affiliation or organisation or whatever, it was not at that time, at the time when the deceased was in fact killed, that body, that organisation, was not affiliated or associated with any specific political party or organisation, do you agree with that statement?

MR MAKATU: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any intention to do so?

MR MAKATU: Yes, there was that intention, that our Youth Congress will affiliate to the ANC.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. What was your own, individual involvement in politics at the time when the deceased was killed?

MR MAKATU: What I am saying is that of the Youth Congress, I participated in that Youth Congress and there is nothing more.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who was the Chairman or the leader of this Youth Congress as you call it?

MR MAKATU: By then it was Mr Nsondeni Muhadi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Just say his name slowly please, the Chairman's name, just repeat that slowly please.

MR MAKATU: Nsondeni.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And his surname?

MR MAKATU: Muhadi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was this Muhadi present on the day when the deceased was killed?

MR MAKATU: On that day he was not present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where was he?

MR MAKATU: I am not sure, I've got no idea.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was he at the meeting beforehand?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, the mother or the wife of the deceased, testified last time, was she not assisted by her two sons?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I would say that she was in fact assisted.

INTERPRETER: Yes, she was assisted.

CHAIRPERSON: Is one of them the person who gave you these new instructions?

MR VAN RENSBURG: If you talk about new instructions, meaning that I can put it to this witness specifically that the Mavhunga Youth Congress does not exist? Yes, indeed. Thank you Mr Chairman. I think I've lost my last question.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You asked whether Mr Muhadi was present at the meeting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I repeat the question, the question is was this Mr Muhadi present at the meeting before you proceeded to the deceased's house?

MR MAKATU: I have said no.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, may I just get instructions on one point quickly, thank you. Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any re-examination?

MR NDOU: None, Honourable Chairman.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps this, Mr Ndou, would be more for argument, but I want to put it to your witness. At the time, did you act on behalf of a publicly known political organisation? If you cannot understand the legal consequences, you could leave it to your representative to argue it. I know it is more a legal question than a factual question.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I can help. This grouping of youth in Mavhunga Village which intended to be launched as a Congress, was that known in the Village to exist? Did everybody in the Village know about this group?

MR MAKATU: Yes, it was known.

CHAIRPERSON: And everybody knew what it stood for, or most people knew what it stood for, I am asking?

MR MAKATU: I am not sure if other people were in the know of what it stands for, but what I know whenever people were called to attend the Youth Congress meetings, they used to come in numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about the youth themselves, we are talking about the public, the rest of the villagers. Did they know that the Youth Congress as you put it, was intended to be launched, it had every intention to canvass in whichever way it chose to be reincorporated into South Africa and that it was seeking the downfall of the Venda government?

MR MAKATU: Yes, it was known by the public in general.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes? Mr Ndou, I just want to point out to you that we are not exactly sure for which offences this applicant intends to apply. We don't want you to commit yourself now, but at the end of the hearing, we would want you to list whatever he is applying for.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Before I proceed Honourable Chairperson, I also wish to indicate that we are lucky, the applicant we were looking for, has arrived, and he will be ready to proceed. I am now going to call Andrew Rammbwa, who is the second applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rammbwa, which language would you prefer to use?

MR RAMMBWA: Venda.

ANDREW RAMMBWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. You are the applicant in this matter and when were you born?

MR RAMMBWA: I was born on the 3rd of March 1967.

MR NDOU: I see and you are presently serving a prison service in the Thohoyandou Medium A prison? Is that correct?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NDOU: And now, you have applied for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Amnesty Act. For which charges do you want to apply for amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you think it is safer for you to tell us that at the end of the hearing?

MR NDOU: Oh, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rammbwa, you know why you are at this hearing, not so? It is in connection, as I understand your written application, with the death of Mr Edward Mavhunga and the incident that occurred the day he died at his house?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, I know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at the previous hearing when all the historical details were given to us?

MR RAMMBWA: I was present here all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard what was said at that time?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what was said in respect of the background and the history that led to this attack?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, I agree with everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us what you did yourself, in respect of that incident.

MR RAMMBWA: I went to the deceased's home in order to ask him to leave the Village and the deceased refused to leave the Village. Before further talks can be pursued, the deceased started to throw the spear to the crowd and the stones and he was also using the assegai and then the people threw the stones back. I am one of the people who really threw the stones to the deceased. Furthermore when we were fighting with the deceased, it is then that the deceased was fighting very hard, and I was also there fighting with him. It happened that people decided to stop the people, to say let the children and the wife leave the place because we were not fighting with them, and then those people were taken out and were taken to the chief's kraal and then the deceased remained in the house. When the deceased remained in the house, what I did to the deceased then is that I took furniture which was there, while the deceased was alone, while others had already left, I took the furniture and threw it on top of the deceased while it was burning, and I also burnt the furniture which was inside the house. That is all.

MR NDOU: I don't know if we should take this any further Honourable Chair?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps for clarity, he was accused 8 at the trial according to the charge sheet on page 34?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, it is true.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Then if you can look at the sentence on page 46 or page 93 of the numbered volumes, he was sentenced on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7. Count 1 being the public violence in entering the people, Petrus Mavhunga; count 2 setting fire on the property of Edward Mavhunga; count 3 had the intention to injure Edward Mavhunga and count 7 killing Edward Mavhunga? Would that be the matters in which he is applying for amnesty?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: All those he was convicted on?

MR RAMMBWA: I am applying for amnesty with regards to that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you. Were you involved too in setting fire to the house of Edward Mavhunga on the 28th of February 1990?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, it is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you are applying for incidents on the 28th of February 1990 as well as the incidents on the 6th of April 1990?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, I am asking regarding all these aspects.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van Rensburg?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Rammbwa, you were not present at the meeting on the 6th of April, is that correct?

MR RAMMBWA: I was in that meeting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If the Chairperson will just give me one second, please.

CHAIRPERSON: While Mr van Rensburg is looking for his things, can I ask you something that he is likely to put to you. This grouping of youth that was referred to as the Mavhunga Youth Congress, did it exist?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes, it once existed.

CHAIRPERSON: If someone had to come put it to you that it didn't exist, what would you say?

MR RAMMBWA: A person who would say that it never existed, is a person who never attended our meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Rammbwa, I refer you to a statement that you made that was contained in the Police docket, in case docket CR11/4/90.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Page 9 and 9(b) of the bundle.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Is that the numbered pages?

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is the numbered pages, yes. Do you have the relevant passage that I am referring to?

MR RAMMBWA: I don't have them with me here.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it easier for you to tell him what is written in there?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I will do that. Thank you. You see in that statement, and I put it to you as a statement, that you can react to, in that specific statement that I have referred to, you have stated that you were at the time at the soccer ground when the people arrived, singing, in a group and saying that they are proceeding to the kraal of one Mavhunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, we've got to be very careful here. The statement doesn't seem to be signed or attested to or whatever, I am not too sure whether, what the source is of this. So we've got to tread very careful here, let's find out from him if that is what he said.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is the object of my question, we can handle it on that basis, yes. Mr Ndou, can I just ask you, have you shown him the relevant passage?

MR NDOU: Yes, he is looking at it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you. Mr Rammbwa, do you see that statement that is contained in that bundle that has been given to us?

MR RAMMBWA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, is that a statement made by yourself to the Police?

CHAIRPERSON: In that statement it says there that you were at the soccer ground and boys arrived there, singing. Did you tell anybody that?

MR RAMMBWA: I am surprised to see that statement, I don't know it.

CHAIRPERSON: It says further that they told you that they were proceeding to the kraal of one Mavhunga. Did you tell anybody that?

MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody that.

CHAIRPERSON: It then states there that "we" which includes you, arrived at the said kraal and it was set alight.

MR RAMMBWA: No, I disagree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: "Abel Muhadi lit the match and then set the hut on fire", did you tell anybody that?

MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody about that.

CHAIRPERSON: The hut got burnt. From there they said that they wanted to proceed to a place called Condeni. Did you tell anybody that?

MR RAMMBWA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: "From there I did not accompany them any more, they proceeded to Condeni." Did you tell anybody that?

MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody that.

CHAIRPERSON: "I only noticed when the huts were on fire, that is all." Did you tell anybody that?

MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, we have gone through the whole statement.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. I will continue. Have you in fact made a statement, a warning statement to the Police after you had been arrested for these specific instances after the death of Mr Mavhunga? Have you made a warning statement, that is the question?

MR RAMMBWA: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, if necessary, I will follow that up with other evidence later, I have no further questions to this witness.

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any questions?

MR NDOU: Nothing further Honourable Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: According to the evidence in court, given by Rosinnah, you were one who hit her with your fist when she left the house?

MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't beat her.

JUDGE DE JAGER: That is on page 74 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, I think you must look very carefully at what he is applying for because I think what he is sentenced for and what he has testified to, may not be inclusive of each other.

MR NDOU: Honourable Chairperson, I have noticed now that the charge of public violence, does not come out clearly. Although he does say in general terms that he is applying for amnesty in respect of the arson charges and the murder charge.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand this sentence, the public violence was alternative to count 2 which was a first attempt of arson. The application does not refer to that one.

MR NDOU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: But at any rate, I will leave it in your hands, you will tell us at the end.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

MR NDOU: My assistant is just whispering to me that the third applicant who has arrived, indicates that he is not prepared to proceed with the matter. We just want to find out if he wants us to have the application withdrawn. Honourable Chairman, the applicant indicates to me that he is no longer interested, he wishes to withdraw the application.

CHAIRPERSON: You are Ailwei Maivha?

MR MAIVHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Your Attorney has just informed us that you wish to withdraw the application for amnesty that you made some time in 1996?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It relates to the attack on Mr Mavhunga's homestead when he died?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you have travelled from Johannesburg to come here today?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you decide you wanted to withdraw this matter?

MR MAIVHA: It is now, because I want this thing to be postponed, I don't think I can speak effectively. I think if I cannot be allowed, if you cannot postpone my case to a further date, then I think for now, I am tired. I feel like sleeping, I won't be able to make an effective contribution.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, we will come to that. When did you decide you wanted to withdraw, today?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is now, today.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou was representing you some time in July last year, is that not so?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you contact him some time ago to find out "look, what is my position"?

MR MAIVHA: I didn't think about it in the past, it is something that I am deciding just now.

CHAIRPERSON: No, when did you know you must come here, when did you decide you were coming here?

MR MAIVHA: I knew about this, that I will be testifying here, within two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: Two weeks ago?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, two weeks ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you contact Mr Ndou?

MR MAIVHA: I was not in possession of his phone number.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you want to do now?

MR MAIVHA: For now I was asking Mr Ndou, I was asking Mr Ndou that my mind is not well today, and I asked him to postpone this for tomorrow, then I decided to withdraw, because for now, I cannot testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you testify?

MR MAIVHA: I am tired, strained and feeling asleep and I don't think, I want to make up my mind so that my mind can refresh so that I can give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you sleepy? It is twelve o'clock?

MR MAIVHA: I am tired, I have just arrived and the transport which I was using, was not comfortable and I am feeling sleepy and tired now.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not sleep last night?

MR MAIVHA: No, I didn't sleep last night.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do last night?

MR MAIVHA: I was sitting on a train coming back to this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you come to Thohoyandou, let's say Friday or Saturday?

MR MAIVHA: I was working on those days.

CHAIRPERSON: The first time you could get onto a train was yesterday, last night?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, that is right.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou your client has asked us to postpone this matter. The best I can do is till tomorrow morning. Hopefully he will be able to sleep tonight, to find somewhere comfortable to sleep so that he is not in a similar condition tomorrow. I am a bit perturbed that he didn't take you into his confidence and merely told you that he wants to withdraw the matter without really asking you and telling you what his condition was. But nonetheless, we will come to his assistance and postpone the matter till tomorrow morning, nine o'clock. Let us come to this agreement in front of him, if he is not here nine o'clock, that is the end of the matter. Do you understand that, Mr Maivha?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, because we are indulging now, and I can quite understand that maybe you are in that situation not because of your own fault, but we have 15 other matters to see to. You will see there behind you are people who have an interest in the quick solution of these hearings. Fortunately for you, you are not in their position and therefore I would ask you to see to it that we don't waste further time. It is possible that some of them may be released some time. Do you understand?

MR MAIVHA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Your hearing then is postponed until tomorrow morning.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, we will submit his affidavit today.

CHAIRPERSON: Well aside from that, tomorrow morning, without wasting time, what these three people are applying for, I would expect you to be in a position to tell us tomorrow.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chair.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed with the other matter? Mr van Rensburg, I assume you would be available tomorrow?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed with the other matter, that will be incident 1, we just have to confirm with the Advocate whether he is ready. I think that is the only, I don't know, I am not involved in that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume, he is sitting here, I assume he is ready otherwise he would be consulting hopefully. Are we ready to proceed or do you need a short adjournment?

MR NDOU: From my position Chairperson, we are ready. I don't know what the position of the lawyer for the victims are.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready ?

MR VAN RENSBURG: May I then be excused for the moment? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is tomorrow okay with you Mr van Rensburg, nine o'clock? Then you are excused Mr van Rensburg. Mr van Rensburg, I have ruled, perhaps unfairly in your absence, but that all the victims be brought to the hearing tomorrow, so that we can get on a roll and finish as many as we can. As and when we are finished with the hearing, those people who have an interest in a particular hearing, can go home. I just thought I would mention that to you, because I made that ruling in your absence. Mr Mushasha, you appear for the victims?

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairperson, I appear for the victims in incident 1, all the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, will you proceed?

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, I call Abadfani Joseph Lukhwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lukhwa, what language would you prefer to use?

MR LUKHWA: Venda.

ABADFANI JOSEPH LUKHWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. Mr Lukhwa, you are the applicant in this matter and you reside at Folovhodwe, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is correct.

MR NDOU: You are applied for amnesty in respect of several murder charges for which you were convicted by the High Court of Intenda, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NDOU: And you were also convicted of several arson counts, which were committed at various kraals at Folovhodwe Village, is that right?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, before going on, in my record, I haven't got pages 52 up to page 70. I don't know whether it is the same in everybody's record? If it was agreed that it wouldn't form part of the record, I am not perturbed by it, but I just want to make sure.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, those pages do not appear even on my bundle and I suppose almost everybody's bundle. I don't know what happened, I will have to find out from Cape Town. I know of no reason why such pages are not here at this point.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't think they are essential to be here if it is agreed by all.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is anything within that missing part that we need to know, we will trust that the representatives will give us copies of the relevant portion.

MR NDOU: Yes, Mr Chairperson, yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If it becomes important.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, when were you born?

MR LUKHWA: In 1955, on the 4th of ...

MR NDOU: I see. Can you explain to the Committee as to the background relating to all these charges with which you were charged?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I can explain.

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR LUKHWA: On the 10th, it was at about eight o'clock coming from work at Chekondeni ...

CHAIRPERSON: On the 10th of what?

MR NDOU: What is the date?

MR LUKHWA: On the 10th of March.

CHAIRPERSON: What year?

MR LUKHWA: 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NDOU: Yes, you can proceed.

MR LUKHWA: On that day I was coming from work, my work place on Saturday, it was roundabout six o'clock. We went to a certain village next to Mr Nenzhelele's kraal. While I was there, sitting, I heard people singing and as they were singing, I was not aware of what was happening because I was coming from work at Chekondeni. It is then that I see people go up and down, all the men and women running away. I also decided to run away because I wasn't aware of what was happening.

As I was going home, I met a group of youth who asked me as to whether I am Abadfani. I agreed and they told me that "today we are going to villages of or the kraals of the people who are against our rights or changes." On looking onto that, I agreed with them, but unfortunately I didn't attend the meeting, but I agreed with their suggestions. I accompanied them, I went to a certain kraal of Mr Maulusi. Maulusi kraal is next to my home, but because the kraal was big, I immediately realised that the hut was burning, but I didn't participate there because I realised that they were my neighbours. As the house was burning, we went further, we went to a certain kraal of Mr Tshibalo.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you accompanied this youth?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I was with those youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there many of them?

MR LUKHWA: There were so many, I didn't manage to count them.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, where did they go to?

MR LUKHWA: They went to Maulusi's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR LUKHWA: Maulusi.

MR NDOU: M-a-u-l-u-s-i. You say after you left Maulusi's kraal, you proceeded to where?

MR LUKHWA: We proceeded to Mr Tshibalo's kraal. On our arrival there with the youth ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maulusi's kraal, what happened?

MR LUKHWA: The hut was burnt and he was also assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: That hut was his? The hut belonged to him?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, the house belongs to him. It was his sleeping hut?

CHAIRPERSON: And you say he was assaulted?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, he was assaulted by stones and sticks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NDOU: And what did you do, you yourself at Maulusi's kraal?

MR LUKHWA: In Maulusi's kraal, I did nothing, I was standing on the gate, I was standing near the gate.

MR NDOU: Together with this crowd?

MR LUKHWA: The group was inside, the other group was inside burning and throwing stones.

MR NDOU: What eventually happened to Mr Maulusi? Was he injured?

MR LUKHWA: He was injured and ultimately he died.

MR NDOU: I see. Now you say the group then proceeded to whose kraal?

MR LUKHWA: To Tshibalo's kraal.

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tshibalo?

MR NDOU: T-s-h-i-b-a-l-o.

MR LUKHWA: There we were looking for Mr Tshibalo and he was not there, and his son called Tshamaano Tshibalo, opened the hut looking for him. Unfortunately he was no longer there, he ran away.

MR NDOU: This child, where is he now, this child of Tshibalo that you say opened the hut?

MR LUKHWA: He is present here.

MR NDOU: Is he one of the applicants?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then what happened?

MR LUKHWA: Now that Mr Tshibalo was not there, we were unable to find him. It is then that the youth decided to burn all the huts.

MR NDOU: What did you yourself do at this kraal?

MR LUKHWA: Here in Mr Tshibalo's kraal I did nothing.

MR NDOU: Yes? Did anybody do anything?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, we are talking about Mr Tshibalo's huts. On page 15 the arson counts that were committed, are Mr Tshibalo's huts included in there?

MR NDOU: Yes, they should be included Honourable Chairman. There on page 15, paragraph 5, 5.3, Johannes Tshibeso Tshibalo. You say you went to Tshibalo's kraal and one of your co-applicants who is the son to Mr Tshibalo, opened the huts and you didn't find him as he had run away, what happened then?

MR LUKHWA: From there we burnt all the huts.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshibalo's homestead?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, in Mr Tshibalo's homestead.

MR NDOU: And what did you do personally?

CHAIRPERSON: How many huts were there?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't count them, because it was during the night, but if I can remember well, I think there were four or five.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was this your father's house?

ADV SIGODI: No?

MR LUKHWA: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, could I have clarity because it is difficult to follow the evidence. Was he charged as accused number, what was his number?

MR NDOU: Accused 10.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Accused 10? And reference is made to the burning of this house on page 83, count 4? This house was the house of accused 11, so it is not he, it is the other applicant? Okay, other applicant, another applicant, okay.

MR NDOU: May I proceed Mr Chairman? Okay, what happened then?

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked what you did there at the Tshibalo's homestead?

MR LUKHWA: In Mr Tshibalo's homestead I did nothing, I was watching, I was standing in the lapa.

MR NDOU: Yes?

JUDGE DE JAGER: While we are there, according to the evidence at the trial, did you hear Andries and Joseph testifying?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question?

JUDGE DE JAGER: At the trial witnesses Andries and Joseph testified, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't hear that clearly, may you please repeat?

JUDGE DE JAGER: At your trial, did Andries and Joseph give evidence?

MR LUKHWA: I don't know this Andries an Joseph.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I can't find their surnames, but according to the record on page 88, they testified that you and accused 11, that is the other Tshibalo, set two huts on fire? Did you set any hut on fire there?

MR LUKHWA: No, I didn't burn any hut, he might have said that, but I didn't burn any hut.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you associated with the people burning the huts and you would have been prepared to set fire to the huts too?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You approved of them setting fire to the huts, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR NDOU: Yes, you can proceed. What happened from there?

MR LUKHWA: From Mr Tshibalo's kraal, they moved, they went to a certain homestead of Mr Ramarumo.

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR LUKHWA: There at Mr Ramarumo's kraal, we entered his homestead.

MR NDOU: Yes, you can proceed.

MR LUKHWA: On entering there, I saw a child standing next to the house and then I asked, I told that child to, that person to remove the car because the people are coming to burn. Then as I was there, I saw the mother and the mother was holding an axe. The father or the old man was holding an axe and then I grabbed that axe which he was trying to defend himself, using it. I grabbed that axe and then the youth approached him and asked him to take them to show where he put his zombies. He said the zombies are in the orchard and they are eating there on a buff. As I was still behind, the youth said they asked him as to whether the zombies will not attack the youth. The youth said he answered that the zombies will attack them. I didn't know what happened but I only realised that the fire was burning, because I was from behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, when you first met the youth, what did they tell you, what were they going to do?

MR LUKHWA: They told me that we are moving around, burning the huts of the witches who are the obstacles in our changes. I agreed with that because I was aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NDOU: What did you yourself do at Ramarumo's kraal?

MR LUKHWA: In my Ramarumo's kraal, I grabbed the axe of the deceased, while he was taking it out of this hut, intending to chop us.

MR NDOU: Is that all?

MR LUKHWA: It ended that I grabbed the axe and then the youth asked him to go with them, so that he can show them where the zombies were.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

MR LUKHWA: From there the youth left with Mr Ramarumo, so that Mr Ramarumo can show them where the zombies are.

MR NDOU: Yes, we have heard that and what happened to him?

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to you?

MR LUKHWA: Mr Ramarumo was assaulted and then ultimately burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when that happened?

MR LUKHWA: I was from behind by then.

CHAIRPERSON: You went with to the orchard?

MR LUKHWA: They didn't go to the orchard, because they were afraid that the zombies will attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what happened then?

MR LUKHWA: Then the youth assaulted the deceased from a stab and I saw the fire burning and I didn't realise who lit him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, you are referring to the youth, who killed Mr Ramarumo? The names of the people who killed him?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't see the person who killed him, because there were so many and others were throwing stones to the effect that I was unable to identify the person who really killed him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who was carrying the petrol?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't manage to identify the person who was holding the petrol, because it was during the night.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At your hearing, was there evidence that accused 10, that is the other Mr Tshibalo, carried the petrol and he poured petrol on him, and that you lit the match and set him alight?

MR LUKHWA: The evidence is like that, but I was behind, talking to the child of the deceased, persuading him to remove the car.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why should the car be removed?

MR LUKHWA: Because they were burning the huts.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't they burn the car?

MR LUKHWA: No, they didn't burn the car.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You are aware that you should tell us the whole truth about what happened there in order to get amnesty?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you say you did nothing? You were a bystander but you approved of what happened? Didn't you attack the deceased?

MR LUKHWA: In this regard I didn't attack him. I only grabbed the axe which he was intending to defend himself, using it.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you didn't set him alight?

MR LUKHWA: No, I didn't set him alight.

CHAIRPERSON: This child who you were talking to about the motor vehicle, is that child present here today?

MR LUKHWA: I don't know because it is a person who is outside from prison, and I am in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but wouldn't you be able to recognise that person? It's got nothing to do with who is in prison or not?

MR LUKHWA: If he can come close by, I can identify him.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot see him in this building today, this room?

MR LUKHWA: Here I am unable to see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, carry on.

MR NDOU: Yes, and you say the group then attacked Mr Ramarumo, what happened thereafter?

CHAIRPERSON: He is dead now and you say you didn't do anything as such? What happened then?

MR NDOU: What happened?

MR LUKHWA: I realised that he was dead the following day, in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen when he was burning then?

MR LUKHWA: I suspected that now that he was burning, he could die.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes? And you left?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I left.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then what happened?

MR LUKHWA: Then the youth proceeded to the kraal of Mr Tharaga.

MR NDOU: How big was this crowd that you are talking about? How big was this crowd? How big was the crowd that you were with on that day?

MR LUKHWA: The crowd was so big, and I think we were about 400 to 500.

MR NDOU: Now, you left Jack Ramarumo's kraal, where did you proceed to?

MR LUKHWA: We went to Tharaga's kraal.

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR LUKHWA: In Tharaga's kraal, he was asleep. We awoke her and she was sleeping in another hut, and then she refused to wake up, and then I chopped the wooden door with the axe which I took it from Mr Jack Ramarumo.

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR LUKHWA: And then I threw it on the lapa and then the crowd approached her, starting to assault her, asking her to explain how she practised witchcraft.

MR NDOU: What role did you play?

MR LUKHWA: I participated in assaulting her with a stick and chopping the door so that she can get out of the hut.

MR NDOU: Yes, what happened to her?

MR LUKHWA: She was assaulted, she ran around the hut.

CHAIRPERSON: You did nothing other than chop the door?

MR LUKHWA: I assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Her?

MR LUKHWA: I assaulted her.

MR NDOU: Yes? And then what happened?

MR LUKHWA: As she got out of the hut, the people were trying to interrogate her, asking her to explain how she practised witchcraft and then she ran around the hut and then the youth followed her. Later I realised that the fire was burning, I realised her running again and then she crawled to get into the hut.

CHAIRPERSON: Something bothers me about your testimony. You suddenly - you aren't telling us how these people are being burnt or their homes are being burnt, but you are there, you open the door, you assault the person, and yet you cannot tell us how these people get to be burnt?

MR LUKHWA: I indicated that I chopped the door. As she got outside of the hut, the youth surrounded her and then I also participated in assaulting her. She went at the back of the hut and I didn't follow that side, I only see the fire burning from that side, and again I saw her coming back to the hut, crawling.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see, again at the trial, the evidence of Josephine one of the children of the deceased, she agreed that you chopped the door in order to get the deceased out of the house. After the deceased had been dragged out of the hut, then she saw you had an axe in your possession. Then she saw accused 11 pouring petrol over the deceased, and saw accused 10, that was you, setting her alight? Did you set her alight?

MR LUKHWA: No, I think she saw me but I didn't burn the person, I chopped the door only.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, who burnt the person?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't identify the person who burnt the deceased, because the crowd was big and it was during the night.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But there is fire, you should see who was around her? Suddenly there would be light?

MR LUKHWA: They just threw the match, so if you pour the person with petrol, then you can throw a match from a distance and then that person will ultimately get burnt.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, who poured the petrol?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't see the person who poured the petrol.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You are now moving from one kraal to the other, who carried petrol, who bought the petrol, where did they get the petrol? Did they get it from the car which you helped them to remove?

MR LUKHWA: There are many things which I didn't manage to identify like where the petrol was coming from, because I didn't see or when I came back from work, they had already planned about what they were going to do, and then I just participated after they had already arranged the procedure of that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, your evidence is not making sense, do you understand? That they may have planned and prepared for all these things, could be true, but there are 11 counts of arson involving burning houses with petrol. At the very least, there must have been a 5 litre can being carried around, not so? You need a lot of petrol to burn 11 houses or huts or whatever, not so?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was carrying this petrol?

MR LUKHWA: At the beginning I didn't see that person, but in the middle, I saw somebody, but I have not yet arrived at that incidents. I will come to it later.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait, you were asked by Judge de Jager who carried the petrol or where the petrol came from and you told us you did not see this. You were unable to see it?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you did at some stage see it, later?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I agree that at the beginning from Jack Ramarumo's kraal, I didn't see the person who was holding the petrol, but later I saw somebody carrying petrol. I am still coming to that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR NDOU: Yes? You say you saw the crowd taking the deceased around the hut and later on you saw her crawling back into the hut, what then happened?

MR LUKHWA: From there the crowd said "no, let us go now" and then we proceeded to a certain kraal of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, what happened to the huts there?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question?

MR NDOU: You have explained to the Honourable Commission that you saw the deceased crawling back into the hut after it had been burnt by somebody that you didn't see from behind the hut. Now what happened to the huts there at the kraal?

MR LUKHWA: The huts were burnt.

MR NDOU: How did they burn?

MR LUKHWA: I saw one hut burning and others were made of corrugated irons.

MR NDOU: Who burnt the hut?

MR LUKHWA: Who burnt that hut, I didn't see him.

MR NDOU: Okay, and then what happened?

MR LUKHWA: While she was crawling, getting inside of the hut, then we decided to go to other kraals.

MR NDOU: What happened to her later on, did you hear anything? What happened to her ultimately, to Tharaga? As a result of the assault, what happened to her?

MR LUKHWA: She was laying in the hut, but then the following day I heard that she died.

MR NDOU: Yes, so you and the group proceeded to where?

MR LUKHWA: We proceeded to the kraal of Mr Tshirongana.

MR NDOU: Yes? What happened there?

MR LUKHWA: We were searching from Mr Tshirongana and then we were unable to see him, he wasn't by Mr Tshibalo, he was behind the hut.

MR NDOU: Which Tshibalo is that?

MR LUKHWA: It is Ebson Tshibalo who is also an applicant here.

MR NDOU: Yes. What happened when he saw him sitting behind the hut?

MR LUKHWA: He let him stand up and brought him to us. What I saw him doing is when he hit him with a spade.

MR NDOU: On what part of his body?

MR LUKHWA: I saw, I think it is here by the ribs.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

MR LUKHWA: From there the crowd surrounded him and I also participated in assaulting, I also assaulted him.

MR NDOU: How did you assault him?

MR LUKHWA: I assaulted him with a stick here at the shoulders.

MR NDOU: Did you do anything else to him?

MR LUKHWA: There is nothing else which I did.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you assist me, could you spell the name of the deceased, the person who they proceeded to now?

MR NDOU: He used the name Tshirongana which I think is a nickname, which is spelt T-s-h-i-r-o-n-g-a-n-a. His real name is Mr L-i-b-a-d-a. You say that you assaulted the deceased with a stick, is that right?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is correct.

MR NDOU: And what did the other people do to him?

MR LUKHWA: They threw stones at him and assaulted him.

MR NDOU: Yes? Just explain to us what happened, we want the whole story.

MR LUKHWA: The youth assaulted him and then we left him there and then we proceeded to other kraals, where there was a car and then we asked the petrol. It is there where petrol was asked.

MR NDOU: Who asked for petrol? Who asked for petrol?

MR LUKHWA: The person who asked the petrol, I cannot remember, but I still remember that we asked for petrol there.

MR NDOU: Did you get it?

MR LUKHWA: No, we didn't get it, but it was, the car was empty and we were unable to remove it from the car.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then? Yes, explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Now here at Mr Libada's house, you were out of petrol? You tried to get a bit of petrol from a motor vehicle and you couldn't, because the motor vehicle did not have any petrol?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it was not in Mr Libada's kraal, but it was next to Mr Libada's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but at that stage the crowd had run out of petrol?

MR LUKHWA: I think, yes, it was no longer having petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was looking for petrol?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it was looking for petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: It couldn't get petrol from the first car it saw?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us what happened after that?

MR LUKHWA: On our arrival we realised that Mr (indistinct) wasn't there. We opened the huts and I am one of the persons who opened one of the huts and his child showed us the hut in which he normally slept.

CHAIRPERSON: We are still at the place of Mr Libada where you hit him on the shoulders by means of a stick. You did nothing further, petrol was sought and you found you couldn't find petrol at the nearest motor vehicle. We are at that stage. What happened then?

MR LUKHWA: Mr Libada was burnt there and then we decided to look for petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: You first burnt him and then decided or found out that you ran out of petrol?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I think the petrol was finished there.

CHAIRPERSON: When he was burnt?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it burnt, it was finished when we were burning there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and then what happened?

MR LUKHWA: From there we proceeded to the ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, wait, wait, was his house burnt or his hut?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, the house was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: How was that burnt?

MR LUKHWA: I just saw the house from behind burning, I didn't realise how it was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't perhaps see a meteor come out of the sky?

MR LUKHWA: No, it is because the crowd was so big so that I was unable to see anything or a person who were throwing the light.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you, you were the youth that day, 400 to 500 in the crowd. Were you the oldest of the lot?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the oldest of the crowd?

MR LUKHWA: No, I wasn't the oldest.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there people older than you there?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, there were many other older people there.

CHAIRPERSON: But it seems that you were quite close to the forefront there as you were able to beat this deceased, Libada and you were there at the door at other places, where you could chop the door open to allow entry, is that right?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, but when I heard this people talking about that issue, I agreed with them and then I joined them.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying you were in the forefront there, you could beat one of the deceased with a stick? Correct? You were close to the scene? Do I understand your evidence correctly?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, there are areas or instances in which I was in the forefront.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LUKHWA: Just like ...

ADV SIGODI: Just like?

CHAIRPERSON: Just like what?

MR LUKHWA: Just like at Jack Ramarumo because immediately when we entered that house, I was in the forefront.

CHAIRPERSON: It strikes me as strange that you were in the forefront in all of these matters, in one way or the other, and yet you are unable to tell us how people got burnt. It doesn't sound right to me. I haven't discussed it with my colleagues, but it troubles me. Can you comment on that? With my colleagues, before you proceed, I want to explain to you that my colleagues and I must at the end of your evidence assess your evidence and determine whether you have complied with the Act in respect of amnesty. Do you understand?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Amongst, other than the formalities, there are two basic issues that you must satisfy us with. One, that whatever you did, was committed, amounted to a crime and was committed within the atmosphere of the political situation at the time and that there was some political advancement that was attempted to be gained by what you did. Do you understand so far?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: The second important issue that you must satisfy the Committee of is that when you have applied and testified, that you have made a complete disclosure of everything relevant in the commission of the crime for which you apply for amnesty. In other words you are being given this opportunity of the benefits of amnesty, and in order to do so, you must come out clean. Do you understand? I am not suggesting that you are not. At this stage I am not suggesting that you are not doing so, but for the second time now, it has been pointed out to you that there are certain aspects of your evidence that is troublesome. It is for your own benefit that I am telling you now that those issues trouble me in assessing what you have already said. I am not trying to catch you out, I am not trying to be nasty to you. I am telling you this for your own benefit. In other words, I am trying to help you. I am going to break for lunch now, during which period I want you to really think about this, yourself, your future, and to really think of what I have just told you now, these two important requirements that must be complied with. It is not me or anyone sitting here that is making those rules, those concepts come out of the Act which was determined by the present government. Do you follow?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then break for lunch.

ON RESUMPTION:

ABADFANI JOSEPH LUKHWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lukhwa, I hope you thought about what I had to say to you and ...

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I am going to ask Mr Ndou to proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: (continued) Thank you Honourable Chairman. Mr Lukhwa, you remember that when we adjourned, you were explaining the events as they occurred at the kraal of Mr Libada, do you remember that?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I do.

MR NDOU: And you had just explained to the Committee that you saw the crowd chasing the deceased right around the hut and then later on you saw the deceased crawling back into the hut? Is that right?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is true.

MR NDOU: And you have explained further to the Committee that you then assaulted the deceased with a stick?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is true.

MR NDOU: Now, I want you to explain quite explicitly to the Committee as to what transpired there, as to your role and as to what other people were doing to the deceased.

MR LUKHWA: What I did there at Libada's kraal, I hit him by a stick. Who used a spade is Ebson Tshibalo and the group was also attacking him.

MR NDOU: And then, how did he die?

MR LUKHWA: When we left this person still alive, we assaulted him and burnt him and left him still alive. We saw, we realised that he was dead, the following day, in the clinic.

MR NDOU: What transpired after you had assaulted the deceased? What did you do, you and your group?

MR LUKHWA: We jumped the fence and went to another village where there was a kombi standing there, standing nearby. We arrived there and we were in need of petrol and then we realised that the kombi was without petrol. We proceeded , it is then that we went to Mr Nepherwede's place. We realised that Nepherwede was not there, but we found his child who was asleep and then he woke up and then the hut was burnt. When the hut was burnt, I was there, but I didn't burn it. I didn't see the person who burnt it, I only saw it burning, because we were in a group or a crowd. From there, then we proceeded. As we proceeded we went to a village near to Fani Matusa. We were going to another kraal of Rebecca Nenzhelele. On our arrival there, the group ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Ndou, really we can't follow. They then went to the kraal of Fani Matusa. what happened there? Could we deal with the incident at the trial?

MR LUKHWA: Nothing happened there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So after that, what is the next incident you are going to refer to?

MR LUKHWA: Now I just want to give evidence on other incidents.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but tell us why did you go to Fani's kraal, what was wrong with him? Why did you target him or didn't you target him, why were you looking for him?

MR LUKHWA: There in Mr Fani's kraal, we just stood and then we were just caucusing where to go from there. As we were walking, before we arrived to Ms Nenzhelele's kraal, we were told that this lady is also a wizard, she always travels with a dead baby. On our arrival, we found her, she was asleep. The person who knocked, I didn't see that person. When that person came out of the house, I dragged her. As she was standing there, she asked us what was wrong with us and then we said "we want you to explain about your witchcraft and this thing you keep on carrying on your back, which is like a dead baby". As she was getting out into the lapa, I saw the petrol was poured, but I didn't realise who poured the petrol.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, please could you, Mr Ndou, could you ask the applicant to speak slowly.

MR NDOU: Okay, thank you. Could you just be slow so that the Committee can take notes there.

MR LUKHWA: On our arrival to Rebecca Nenzhelele's kraal, we knocked, it was (indistinct), as she came out, I dragged her and then the crowd started around her assaulting her and I saw her being poured with petrol. The petrol was lit, then I saw her burning and the crowd running away. Her child called Daniel Nenzhelele was standing.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Are you talking about Rebecca Nenzhelele now?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: You say you put her out of her hut, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: What did the crowd do to her?

MR LUKHWA: The crowd surrounded her and I realised that she was burning by then.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you saw petrol being poured on her, correct, that is what you have testified?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did so, can you say?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't identify the person who poured the petrol, because they were surrounding her.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you able to see that petrol was being poured then, if you cannot say who did it?

MR LUKHWA: I realised it was petrol, but the person who poured it, I didn't manage to identify that person because the people were so many around her, and apart from that, it was during the night.

MR NDOU: Did you do anything else to her? Did you do anything else to her, you yourself?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, yes, there is something. I threw a stone to her and then the stone hit her, after dragging her outside the hut.

MR NDOU: Yes?

JUDGE DE JAGER: After you ...

INTERPRETER: Interpreters cannot hear, the speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did she fall down after you threw the stone at her?

MR LUKHWA: No, she was standing, but she fell down while she was assaulted by the whole group.

MR NDOU: Yes? Proceed, what then happened?

MR LUKHWA: I went back seeing her child standing there.

MR NDOU: Which child is that?

MR LUKHWA: It is Daniel Nenzhelele.

MR NDOU: How old was he at the time?

MR LUKHWA: I am not sure of his age, he is older than me.

MR NDOU: Oh, so he was a grown up, okay.

MR LUKHWA: Yes, he was a grown up.

MR NDOU: Okay, you can proceed. Then what happened?

MR LUKHWA: Then we went to the road and we encouraged each other to proceed and then we left the lady laying there in her kraal.

MR NDOU: And what happened to her later? Did anything happen to her?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: What?

MR LUKHWA: She died.

MR NDOU: As a result of the attack by the group?

MR LUKHWA: Yes. Yes, including myself.

MR NDOU: What happened after that?

MR LUKHWA: We left and left the lady there in the kraal.

MR NDOU: Yes, proceed.

MR LUKHWA: As we were proceeding, before we reached Timothy Magaraba's homestead there was a certain youth who was a member of us who said there is a certain person up there who is called Meki Machusa or Nenzhelele, I might be confusing the surnames. He said he one day as he was travelling with a certain traditional doctor, then Kledi the witch-doctor and that lady was making a conversation in which he said the lady was requesting for three (indistinct) bones and then the lady will provide her with two zombies. The person was saying that is Solomon Thomu. It is then that the group decided to go to that lady's place, it is then that we went to the homestead of Meki. On our arrival, then we greeted them in our Venda way and I entered the lapa and Meki was not there.

As we were about to leave, somebody one of us, said "here is the child, he is saying that she is around". As the group went back, the lady was from a wardrobe and then the crowd chased her as she was running to another homestead. I was present as we were chasing her, but when we entered the house, I found her already laying and burning and I didn't recognise who burnt her and assaulted her, because on my arrival she was already burning. It is then that we left her there and then we proceeded. We went to the cave.

MR NDOU: All right, what role did you yourself play at Meki's kraal?

MR LUKHWA: In Meki's homestead, I entered the homestead and we were sitting there, she was not there, then we decided to leave. On our way, we came back again. There is nothing which I personally did to Ms Meki. When it was said that she was in the wardrobe, she immediately ran away and there was already a crowd in front of me, on my arrival she was already burning next to the house of a certain homestead which was close by.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Meki's homestead itself? Was that burnt?

MR LUKHWA: Meki's homestead was not burnt. It was a house made of corrugated iron.

MR NDOU: Okay, carry on. You can proceed. Yes, proceed?

MR LUKHWA: We left her burning there and then we proceeded to Rakhalaru's cave. On our arrival there, while I was still at the gate, others were already inside. He was sleeping there in the lapa together with his wife. It is then that others said that we are requesting for your car, so that you can borrow us your car, or you drive it for us and accompany us to Muswodi, we want to follow a certain Fanyisani Ndou.

MR NDOU: Why were you to follow this Fanyisani Ndou?

MR LUKHWA: It is because he was staying at Folovhodwe, and then he ran away to Muswodi to his sister.

MR NDOU: Why did people go to Rakhalaru's residence?

MR LUKHWA: We went there looking for a car to transport us to Muswodi, because Muswodi is far away from Folovhodwe.

MR NDOU: So you wanted Rakhalaru to transport you to the next village of Muswodi, is that what you are saying?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then what happened at Rakhalaru's?

MR LUKHWA: After awaking Mr Rakhalaru, a certain Timo Sarama said because I am a driver, I will drive another car and then the owner of the cafe will drive the other truck, because we were so many. It wasn't possible for us to use one truck. Mr Rakhalaru didn't refuse and Timo didn't refuse and then we boarded them and then they were so full that others were left behind. On our arrival at Muswodi, next to a certain cage of Mr (indistinct) or rather a bottle store,the struck was stopped by Tshibalo and ordered us to stop and said people mustn't go there, all of them. Then the trucks left and then we proceeded to the village on foot.

By then I didn't know where his sister was staying. It is Tshibalo who was knowing that place. On arriving there, a certain group was still behind, before we can all enter the homestead, Tshibalo then entered the homestead and then I followed him. We found her asleep.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just help me. I cannot follow ...

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you perhaps refer to the counts that he has been convicted of, then at least we can follow, or to page 5. What was the page with the names ...

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly refer to say page 15, paragraph 5 and tell us we are now dealing with the incident of so and so.

MR NDOU: Okay.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So that we can know with what we are dealing with, at a time. Who was the person you wanted to assault at the next venue?

MR NDOU: Did you hear the question? Who did you want to assault at this next venue where you were proceeding by truck, with the other people?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Who?

MR LUKHWA: Fanyisani.

MR NDOU: Fanyisani who?

MR LUKHWA: Fanyisani Ndou.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Is it referred to in paragraph 5 on page 15, 4.7?

MR NDOU: Yes, or 5.10?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, paragraph 4 on page 14, I see. Okay, thank you.

MR NDOU: Now you have arrived at Muswodi, the group was going to follow Fanyisani Ndou who had run away from Folovhodwe and there you alighted from the truck ...

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear.

MR NDOU: Okay, you have arrived at Muswodi by truck, there you alight from the trucks and you are walking towards the kraal where Fanyisani was allegedly hiding in it. What happened when you arrived there?

MR LUKHWA: We entered the homestead and Fanyisani was laying there in the lapa with his sister.

MR NDOU: Was it a sister or brother, Fanyisani was a female? With whom was she outside there? I think it was the Interpreter's problem.

MR LUKHWA: She was sleeping with her brother.

MR NDOU: And who was this brother of hers?

MR LUKHWA: It is Makwivhile, the brother.

MR NDOU: And that is the person referred to on paragraph 4 on page 14, 4.8, that Makwivhile Andries Budelindo, is that right?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then what happened as she lay there?

MR LUKHWA: Tshibalo said Mr Fanyisani we followed you here, tell us about my clothes, I want to know where my clothes are.

MR NDOU: Who said that?

MR LUKHWA: Ebson Tshibalo.

MR NDOU: Your co-applicant?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: What did he want from her?

MR LUKHWA: His clothes.

MR NDOU: What happened to the clothes?

MR LUKHWA: (Indistinct) said the clothes are in the pool of blood, somewhere there between the reeds in the Nyanda River.

MR NDOU: What happened, what kind of clothes were these that your co-applicant was looking for?

MR LUKHWA: I didn't know about what kind of clothes they were, but I simply heard him saying that he is in need of clothes that are in the pool of blood, which is somewhere in between the reeds next to the river.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

MR LUKHWA: And then he called, he asked him to take, to bring back the clothes and then he started to assault him and I also assaulted him heavily with a stick.

MR NDOU: Who did you assault, because there was a lady, Fanyisani was there with her brother? Just explain very clearly as to what was happening there. Tell us if you were assaulting Fanyisani, tell us exactly what you did. If you were assaulting the man, tell us what you did.

MR LUKHWA: We were assaulting the lady called Fanyisani. As we were assaulting her, the brother to the lady said "no, don't assault me alone, I don't practice witchcraft alone, I practice it with Mr Birima. Let me go and show you this so-called Birima". Then the crowd said "let's go and see that person together with Ms Fanyisani." I remained behind, hitting this Ms Fanyisani.

Then I left her laying in a certain homestead, but I don't know the name of that place or that kraal.

MR NDOU: Where were you proceeding to now?

MR LUKHWA: We were proceeding to Mr Birima's friend, he was going to show us that place of Mr Birima.

MR NDOU: Did you know Mr Birima?

MR LUKHWA: No, by then he was not known to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You went there, this lady was asked about certain clothes.

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is true, you can continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she beaten because of this clothes?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, and witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: What does the witchcraft and the clothes have to do with each other?

MR LUKHWA: They relate to each other because they took them in a witchcraft way, they were not simply stolen.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR NDOU: Okay, and then? There you are, you are proceeding now to Birima's kraal. You have indicated to the Committee that you didn't know Birima at that time.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear, the speaker's microphone is not on.

MR NDOU: You indicated that you were then being taken to Birima's kraal, who is the person mentioned under paragraph 4.9 and I asked you a question as to whether at that stage, you knew Birima or not? Did you know Mr Birima?

MR LUKHWA: No, by then he was not known to me.

MR NDOU: Why were you proceeding to his kraal?

MR LUKHWA: We were proceeding to his kraal because we were told that he was also practising witchcraft.

MR NDOU: What did you want to do to Birima?

MR LUKHWA: He was going to point to us that he was practising witchcraft with whoever.

MR NDOU: So that what happens?

MR LUKHWA: On our arrival there, as the people were, other people were in front and I was still behind with Ms Fanyisani.

MR NDOU: Yes, explain what happened.

MR LUKHWA: On my arrival there in Mr Birima's homestead, the house was tightened and who tightened it was Tshibalo. I was standing near the fence and I heard Ebson Tshibalo talking to the wife of Mr Birima carrying a lamp, asking her to give them the petrol, so that we can burn this hut because the people have entered this hut.

MR NDOU: Who were the people who had entered the hut?

MR LUKHWA: It is Mr Birima and Makwivhile and they, both of them entered the house and they didn't come out.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

MR LUKHWA: It is then that Ebson made sure that the door is tightened by a wire. After tightening the door, the house was burning. I was standing from behind, I saw Birima getting, coming out, holding a spear and then he passed next to me. As he was attempting to stab me, I fell down. As I fell down, Tshibalo arrived and then grabbed him and took the spear and then he flicked the spear and then he stabbed him by the spear, and then I don't know, where, at which part of the body exactly he stabbed. As we were running a car was coming, lighting the lights and then we all dispersed.

MR NDOU: Yes, but what did you do at Birima's kraal? You yourself, what active role did you play there?

MR LUKHWA: In Birima's place, there is nothing so important because I was not inside, I was from behind.

MR NDOU: Did you agree with what the other people were doing?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

MR NDOU: And then you say after the arrival of this motor vehicle, you ran away? What happened?

MR LUKHWA: Then we ran away because we were afraid that we would be seen by the Police.

MR NDOU: And what happened to Mr Makwivhile who was in the hut which had been tightened with a wire by your co-applicant, Tshibalo?

MR LUKHWA: A lightning happened and then the hut gets opened.

MR NDOU: What happened to Makwivhile?

MR LUKHWA: He came out and then he ran away.

MR NDOU: Yes, but you know that later on, he was found dead. How did it come that he died?

MR LUKHWA: He was found dead because he was assaulted and he was also burnt by fire, but the people who burnt him, I didn't identify him because I was by then running.

MR NDOU: You don't know how he came about to be injured which caused his death, is that what you are saying?

MR LUKHWA: He died from assault.

MR NDOU: By who?

MR LUKHWA: He was assaulted by the crowd.

MR NDOU: How?

MR LUKHWA: They were throwing stones on top of the hut and even the door, they were also stoning the door.

MR NDOU: I see.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did the death of Mr Birima have to do with politics?

MR LUKHWA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What, was he involved in politics, what did he do, why should he be killed? What was his role in politics?

MR LUKHWA: It is the time when we, the youth, were looking for changes, he was against the changes. He used to give the leaders who were in government, he used to give the leaders who were in government to prevent these changes whenever we speak anything, they were unable, or they were not prepared to listen to us.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How do you know that, you didn't even know Mr Birima at all?

MR LUKHWA: I learnt that because he was appointed by his friend, who personally ag reed or concurred that he practised this witchcraft things.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but all the people practising witchcraft weren't involved in politics, they are even practising witchcraft today?

MR LUKHWA: They were not interfering with politics, but we were in need of changes, but they were against our changes, because they used to be people who used to give medicines. We youth, were in need of changes and they were against those changes, just like now that we are now independent. It is because of the changes we were looking for.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but weren't they ordinary people practising witchcraft like we've got people practising witchcraft today and they are not involved in politics at all? Why did you believe then to be involved in politics?

MR LUKHWA: It is because we by then, as we were looking for changes, they were against the changes. They used to collaborate with the leaders of the past government of apartheid. We were in need of changes and that is why we went to those elderly people, because these people who practise witchcraft used to take medicine to the leaders. The leaders were suppressing us and we were unable to go to the leaders because they were well armed with guns, shamboks and all sorts of things.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any more questions?

MR NDOU: I think that is all Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Lukhwa, in your evidence you said ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mushasha, you can just put your case to the witness.

MR MUSHASHA: Pardon? I should not put questions?

CHAIRPERSON: I say you can just put your case to him.

MR MUSHASHA: Thank you. Mr Lukhwa, do you know the person who is on my right, sitting next to me?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I know that person.

MR MUSHASHA: Who is he?

MR LUKHWA: It is Isaac Ramarumo.

MR MUSHASHA: On the date of this incident, did you see him?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I saw him.

MR MUSHASHA: Did he play any role during the killings? Did you talk to him?

MR LUKHWA: No. I talked to him on the day of the incident at his home.

MR MUSHASHA: Is he not the person whom you were asked about by the members of the panel, of this Committee, when you were giving evidence to identify?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, it is the person, but during that time I was unable to recognise him because it is long that I have left him. By then he was lean, but now I see that he has gained weight.

MR MUSHASHA: He and the other victims of this incident, would say that they do not agree that you are giving a full disclosure of the incident and of your participation in the killings of the relatives.

MR LUKHWA: I agree that they cannot agree, but what I am saying, I am relating how I have seen the incident happening. I am telling the honest truth, so that I will be able to ask for forgiveness for what I have done to them.

MR MUSHASHA: They will tell the Committee that you in fact participated in the killing, rather than merely as you are putting it, associating yourself with the killings?

MR LUKHWA: What I am saying is the truth of how I participated in this incidents. I am not the person who started with this thing from the beginning, I am the person who joined in the middle.

MR MUSHASHA: They will say that as reflected in the judgement on page 95, you - page 95 paragraph 2 - you and accused 11, your co-applicant, pushed the door of the deceased Andries into the hut where Birima was said to be and tied the door from the outside with a piece of wire, and you in particular then poured paraffin on the hut and set it alight.

MR LUKHWA: That is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: So you are suggesting that the Judge was wrong in this finding?

CHAIRPERSON: He is entitled to say so, he has given an answer to that.

MR LUKHWA: In all fairness, the fact that I tied the door, using the wire and assisted in pouring paraffin, is not true. I have the whole truth on that.

MR MUSHASHA: The relatives of the deceased, that is the victims, would further say as reflected on page 9 of this record, you chopped the door of Meki's hut.

MR LUKHWA: That is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: They will further say that as reflected on page 88 of this judgement, bound in this record, that you and accused 11 were the people who demanded petrol which was no longer available and when the person from whom you demanded petrol, could not produce petrol, you threatened after which you threw stones?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you perhaps make it clearer, who was the person whom they asked petrol from?

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairperson, I was trying to get a link, this is on page 88 of the record as bound.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but you've got instructions that they demanded petrol from Mr X, and he couldn't supply it. Who was this Mr X, would he give evidence, would he come and tell us that they demanded petrol from him?

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairperson, I was simply quoting from the judgement, it is not specifically mentioned from whom they demanded petrol. Mr Lukhwa, again, the victims would ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I interrupted you now. Put that question to him and let's get an answer, he demanded petrol and when he couldn't supply it, what did he do?

MR MUSHASHA: He threatened him?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. What is your answer on that?

MR LUKHWA: I threatened no one.

MR MUSHASHA: The evidence from the victims would be that as reflected on page 87 of the judgement, bound in this record, at - which kraal was this - may I have the Committee's indulgence?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Libada's kraal?

MR MUSHASHA: Libada's kraal, that is the last paragraph of this page, but one, last paragraph but one. Let me just quote it to him for convenience sake.

So in terms of this passage, you are the person who set the huts alight, what do you say to that?

MR LUKHWA: Whose huts?

MR MUSHASHA: That was at Libada's kraal?

MR LUKHWA: That is not true. The people who gave evidence there, were lying, that is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: You say the whole objective was to kill these people who were alleged to be wizards, correct?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MUSHASHA: I want to take you to Ramarumo's kraal. You have already conceded that you are the one who disarmed Ramarumo of the weapon, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MUSHASHA: That was the axe?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, that was an axe.

MR MUSHASHA: And your intention was to have him killed, is that correct?

MR LUKHWA: My aim was that I realised that he was going to chop me, using that, then I grabbed it.

MR MUSHASHA: yes, then if you intended killing him, why not chop him and kill him thereby?

MR LUKHWA: May you please repeat the question?

MR MUSHASHA: If the intention was to have him killed, now you were armed with his axe, why didn't you chop him to death there with?

MR LUKHWA: He was immediately taken away by the crowd and then the crowd left with him.

MR MUSHASHA: I am saying this against the, in the light of the judgement, the evidence which is found in the judgement on page 84, that you in fact struck the deceased there with, with this axe?

MR LUKHWA: That is not true, the deceased was assaulted on the steps outside the homestead.

MR MUSHASHA: You have already shown in your evidence that the whole objective was to eliminate witches who had something to do with the political climate during that period.

MR LUKHWA: That is true.

MR MUSHASHA: Yes, in your evidence you said you came across this mob while you were on your way from work and when you came across this mob, I believe you did not know what the mob was up to, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Mushasha, they told him and he agreed with that? They told him what they were up to and he agreed with it and he accompanied them.

MR MUSHASHA: May it please the Chairperson. From the position of the victims, you participated in the killings not for any political gain, but for your personal gain? What do you say to that?

MR LUKHWA: That is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: The victims' position would be that as reflected on page 96 of the judgement, that was your actual role in the killings of the deceased. I wish to quote this passage of the judgement, it is paragraph 3 of the judgement which reads as follows, I quote -

What is your comment to this finding by the Judge?

INTERPRETER: He is asking that you repeat.

MR MUSHASHA: The whole passage?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, because I didn't understand all that you were saying.

MR MUSHASHA: The gist of the matter is that according to this passage which I have just read out, that you and accused 11 used this mob in the execution of your evil plans to murder nine people and burn 11 kraals. You were responsible for the execution of the crimes itself, the two of you?

MR LUKHWA: That is not true. I was even not aware of what was happening. I just met this people from work, I was not aware. I used to work (indistinct) at my work place, I used to come back on Friday, but that day I came back on Saturday, then I met those people and then they blocked me and told me that "today we are doing this". I was not aware when I knocked off from work.

MR MUSHASHA: The attitude of the victims is that you are trying to minimise the role which you played in the execution of this plan, by saying that the mob did this, instead of involving yourself by saying we did this throughout your testimony?

MR LUKHWA: From what I am saying, I am telling the honest truth which I know, giving this before the Committee because it is long that I have been sentenced, but I am telling the evidence as it is. I even don't know where it started, I was only blocked on my way.

MR MUSHASHA: The attitude of the deceased's relatives is that you have done that which is very evil and you would not be acceptable in that community any longer as a result of what you did.

MR LUKHWA: What I did, of course even myself, I see that as very evil. That is why I have decided to come before this Committee so that I can ask for amnesty for all the wrongs I have done in the past, so that I can do new things now, and I am coming to ask for forgiveness, even in all the victims and others.

MR MUSHASHA: Their attitude is that they, some of them were present when these crimes were perpetrated, they actually saw you participating actively, than what you pretend to be the case before the panel, and in the light of that, their view is that you are not making a full disclosure of what actually happened?

MR LUKHWA: As far as I am concerned, as I am telling the honest truth, I am relating what I had done. There is nothing to hide now, I am already sentenced. I am telling the truth, I am hiding nothing, there is nothing to fear for, now.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson. These persons, the group which you joined, did they belong to any political organisation?

MR LUKHWA: The group I joined was the supporters of the ANC and I was a supporter of the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: I am talking about the group.

MR LUKHWA: Yes. Yes, because it was also in need of changes.

ADV SIGODI: How do you know that? How do you know that this group which you joined, was a group which was supporting the ANC?

MR LUKHWA: I know this because even before these incidents, they used to say that they are supporters of the ANC, they are in need of the government to change, they were no longer interested in the previous government.

ADV SIGODI: Who was the leader of this group? Was there a leader?

MR LUKHWA: The leader, I didn't manage to see the leader, there were so many, to such an extent that I didn't realise who was leading the group. They were all talking at the same time and then we all agreed, including yourself.

ADV SIGODI: But the question is how did you know that the group which you joined, was a group which supported the ANC? It could have been a group of people who wanted to go and kill witches, how did you know that that particular group was a group which supported the ANC?

MR LUKHWA: I know that they were there, because even before the incident, they used to support the ANC and standing for the ANC all the time. Even, I can mention of two people that I know, that were the supporters of the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, do you have any questions?

MR NDOU: No, none, thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did this group have a name, what did they call themselves?

MR LUKHWA: The name of the group, I don't know the name of the group, but I was only aware that we were the supporters of the ANC, because we were in need of changes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At the previous meetings, who was the leader of the group, who was the Chairman when you had meetings?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, I was the Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you call the people together to come and have a meeting?

MR LUKHWA: Sometimes we used to have meetings, but that day I was not there, but in the past I used to call them, but on that day, I was not there, I was at work.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but on the other days you acted as a leader, you called them together, is that right?

MR LUKHWA: Yes, that is right.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At those meetings, what did you decide, what did you tell them, you want them to take a decision on what?

MR LUKHWA: Sometimes we decided that seeing that our chief once called us and said that he had (indistinct) people who are practising witchcraft, we are hearing zombies during the - and then the chief asked us to collect R2-00 so that we can find out the people who were having these zombies. But later we decided not to take away those zombies. We just want the rain to rain and then I informed the youth that there are people who are obstacle here before us.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now, what did the chief tell you, you should - did the chief tell you you should kill the witches or what did he tell you, what should you do?

MR LUKHWA: The chief didn't tell us that we should kill the witches, he said "no, we must no longer remove the zombies. We must no longer call the person who must come, we must no longer allow that witch-doctor to come and assist us in removing these zombies."

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was the chief in favour of the witch-doctors or was he against the witch-doctors?

MR LUKHWA: I think he was in favour of the witches because he once said that he wants the zombies to be removed, but not long, within a week, he said "no, I no longer want the zombies to be removed". He said "no, let us now ensure that we make it to rain or the rain to rain."

JUDGE DE JAGER: So it was about the rain?

MR LUKHWA: It was now a matter of rain, instead of a zombie issue.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So there was no politics concerned as far as...

MR LUKHWA: The politics was there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well the chief talked about the rain and the zombies and he didn't talk about any politics?

MR LUKHWA: The chief was hiding the issue of removing the zombies. I suspect that the witches would have gone to him and maybe the chief cheated the witches not to remove the zombies and then it turned into the rain to rain instead of dealing with the zombies.

MR NDOU: I now call the second applicant, Tshibalo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshibalo, what language would you like to speak?

MR TSHIBALO: Venda.

TSHAMAANO EBSON TSHIBALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, Honourable Members. Mr Tshibalo, you are the applicant in this matter. When were you born?

MR TSHIBALO: On the 25th of April 1958.

MR NDOU: Yes, you have heard evidence being led by your co-applicant, Mr Lukhwa, is that right?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, that is true.

MR NDOU: And you have heard that you are applying for amnesty in respect of the nine murders which were committed on victims at Folovhodwe and Muswodi respectively, as well as 11 charges of arson committed at various kraals?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, that is true.

MR NDOU: Now, I want you to explain explicitly to this Court, without being in a hurry, explaining as to what you did at each particular kraal, starting from Mr Maulusi's kraal where the group first entered.

Okay, let me put it this way to you, how did it come about that you joined this group?

MR TSHIBALO: I still remember very well that it was on the 10th of March 1990, I was coming back from work and when I alighted next to Mr Rakhalaru's cave, I met a group there, sitting in front the cave of Mr Rakhalaru.

MR NDOU: Did you know the people who were gathered there?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, the people who were gathering there, I know some of them even by names.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

MR TSHIBALO: On my arrival there, who was speaking as the speaker, as the guest speaker was Owen Simeli.

MR NDOU: Was he one of your co-accused in your trial in the High Court?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes, and you say he was addressing the group there. Approximately how many people would you say had gathered there that day?

MR TSHIBALO: The people who had gathered were approximately 500.

MR NDOU: Yes, and you arrived there, you found Owen Simeli addressing the crowd. What then happened?

MR TSHIBALO: On my arrival there, Owen talked to me and as I was approaching and said "you, Mr Tshamaano, today as you are seeing us here, we are talking about a meeting regarding your father. Your father is said to be practising witchcraft, he is preventing us from what we want to do."

MR NDOU: Did they explain to you as to how your father interferes with whatever they wanted to do?

MR TSHIBALO: He said he is having zombies, and he said he is also practising witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: What was wrong with that?

MR TSHIBALO: I personally agreed that we must go to my father to find out how he was doing all those things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what did they find wrong with practising witchcraft? Please don't take it as if I am supportive of witchcraft, I am just asking how that group saw witchcraft being wrong. Why did they have a problem with witchcraft?

MR TSHIBALO: My understanding, they were having a problem because these witches were collaborating with the leaders of the previous, former government, because they were close to those leaders and then they assisted them by those medicines. By that time when they were talking, I have already heard about organisations saying that people are being killed, the ritual murder and witchcraft and to be turned into zombies.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. Now, did people say to you "look, we have also discovered your father practised witchcraft" and you said to them "okay, let's proceed to my home so that we can find out from my father as to how he goes about practising witchcraft". What happened then?

MR TSHIBALO: We proceeded from there and we were singing the (indistinct) songs, or the freedom songs, and we went to where I stay with my father. On our way ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay, let's for a moment, you stayed with your father?

MR TSHIBALO: I was having my other place on top or close by my father's place.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you grow up in your father's kraal?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was your father a witch-doctor?

MR TSHIBALO: No, he wasn't a witch-doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he practice witchcraft?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters didn't hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he practice witchcraft?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he practice witchcraft, the father?

MR TSHIBALO: I agree because by the way the people were talking, I thought maybe he might be doing that, but I wasn't are of that.

MR NDOU: You arrived at your kraal, what happened, at your father's kraal?

MR TSHIBALO: On our arrival, I entered the hut because I know that he usually sleeps there. Then on entering, there was nobody. I decided to search even under the bed and even the wardrobe. There was nobody. I went out, as I went out, the crowd or the group were also howling at me and I realised that my life will be in danger. Then I decided to burn the hut of my father.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that. I just want to hear that properly. Why did you burn your father's hut?

MR TSHIBALO: Seeing that people were howling at me, I took the box of matches and the hut in which my father was staying.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't do it willingly, you did it because you reacted to the people who were shouting at you?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you went on with this crowd, after that, to other people's homes? Correct?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you participate in those events?

MR TSHIBALO: I started at Mr Ramarumo's homestead, I participated ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about all the other places, events you participated in. Why did you go there then? Did you do so willingly or did you feel compelled to go there because of the crowd?

MR TSHIBALO: By then I accepted what was happening during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So?

MR TSHIBALO: From my homestead, we went to Mr Ramarumo's homestead.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to me, you are not answering my question. We will come back to each of these events if necessary. You according to your written application, participated in all these other events where people died and their homes were burnt, correct?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I participated in all these other incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you have testified now in burning your father's house you had no intention of burning your father's house yourself, you reacted to the shouting of the people, correct?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I burnt because people we shouting at me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Did you feel scared, if you didn't do it something would happen to you or what?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I just felt that something could happen. I could be stoned and I might be killed if I didn't do anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you burnt your father's house?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, so that he must also see that I am also a member of that group.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, besides that, but you would not have done that had the people not shouted at you, as I understand or am I understanding your evidence incorrectly?

MR TSHIBALO: I am not clear, may you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you burn your father's hut then?

MR TSHIBALO: It is because we did not find him so that we can hear from him as to whether he is practising all these things he is allegedly committing.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you burn your father's hut?

MR TSHIBALO: It is because my father was not around or available.

CHAIRPERSON: So what? Must a man be at his home all the time otherwise his hut is going to be burnt?

MR TSHIBALO: I was compelled to do so, because he wasn't available.

CHAIRPERSON: What compelled you to do so?

MR TSHIBALO: It is my conscience.

CHAIRPERSON: What conscience?

MR TSHIBALO: I was feeling, having the desire of burn.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, don't talk nonsense to us now. Do you understand? We have a lot of other people's cases to hear here. Do you understand?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say the only reason you burnt your father's house was because you had a sudden desire to do so?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I was compelled to burn it.

CHAIRPERSON: What compelled you to burn it?

MR TSHIBALO: It is because he was alleged to be practising witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: And then, so what now? What compelled you to burn his house? Why couldn't you wait then to see if these allegations were true, give the man a chance to explain himself or at least deny the allegations. Why not wait for him to come?

MR TSHIBALO: The group lost hope that I might have informed my father to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: So?

MR TSHIBALO: That is why I took a decision of burning the hut.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't burn the hut because you thought your father was a witch or wizard? Correct?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't burn it because you had any political problem with your father? Correct?

MR TSHIBALO: I was having a problem with him, I thought he was obstructing the youth from achieving the changes they were in need of.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he do that, what made you think he was doing that?

MR TSHIBALO: I thought he was killing people, making them zombies so that he can make medicine so that they can prosper or still be in power.

CHAIRPERSON: So why burn his house then?

MR TSHIBALO: We thought after burning that house, he will leave the place and go to another village.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, on this one point as to why you burnt your father's hut, you have given us about four reasons, different reasons, different versions. Tell us now what is the position. In a short space of time, you have given us four reasons. What is the actual position now?

MR TSHIBALO: The one thing that I can mention is that he is a witch, he practices witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: You just told us five minutes ago that that was not so? He didn't practice witchcraft, he was not a witch. That is what you have told us.

INTERPRETER: He was referring to the witch-doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ndou, carry on.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. Let me find out from you, was it on that particular day your first time to hear that your father practises witchcraft?

MR TSHIBALO: I have already heard about that before as people were talking.

MR NDOU: Did you believe it?

MR TSHIBALO: By then I believed, because if you hear many people talking of the same incidents, then one should of course believe that it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: That is utter nonsense. Why didn't you go and confront your father about the allegations or did you not check if he really is indulging in this witchcraft activities, you had the opportunity, it was your father?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I used to investigate that, but my father was always against me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you confront him? Did you ask him "look the people are saying that you are a witch"?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I asked him about this in various incidents, he was always against, he said I was against him and then he looked for me for another homestead so that I can go away from his homestead.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was indulging in witchcraft?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, he was.

ADV SIGODI: What did he do? What was he doing? What was he doing that convinced you that your father was indulging in witchcraft? What did you see him doing?

MR TSHIBALO: You mean at home?

ADV SIGODI: Yes?

MR TSHIBALO: No, I never witnessed that but I still remember on a Saturday when I was asleep, I saw him getting outside my hut without clothes on. It is something which makes me to believe that he is practising witchcraft.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me, from your affidavit here, you made an affidavit which is on pages 40, 41, 42, 43, 44 up to page 51. Now in the list of the offences that you have applied for amnesty for, I notice that you have not applied for the incident at your father's home. Is that so? Only the arson, oh no sorry, it is my mistake. I accept that it is my mistake.

MR NDOU: You have indicated that after you had found that your father was not there ...

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear, the microphone is not on.

MR NDOU: You have indicated that after you had realised that your father was not there, and that his hut was standing empty, you then decided to burn it and what happened after that?

MR TSHIBALO: After burning the hut, we went out of my family's homestead, by the gate, and then we went to - from there we went to a house which is next door to that of Mr Ramarumo.

MR NDOU: Whose kraal was that?

MR TSHIBALO: It is the kraal of Mr Jack Ramarumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you participate in that event where he was killed and where his house was burnt?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I participated there regarding Mr Ramarumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR TSHIBALO: Because the group in which I was in, including myself, we were going to him regarding interrogating him regarding this witchcraft issue and the zombies. On my arrival there, I saw the accused called Lukhwa being in, dragging Mr Jack Ramarumo. He was coming with him towards the gate. As they just passed the gate, we started to interrogate him as to, we are saying as a group he is practising witchcraft and he is having zombies and then we asked him to show us where those zombies are.

From then the old man agreed and then he led us, going to the direction of the orchards, because it is where he indicated that the zombies are found, there in the orchards. As we were going there, there was a question which was put to him as to whether the zombies doesn't attack people or they won't, the zombies won't fight us. He said "yes, they would attack, possibly they can beat people" and then we asked him how can we do it and then he said "no, you won't stand for that, those zombies are very tough and I see you are boys". It is then when we were approaching the gate next to his orchard. There we started to stone him until he fell down. As we realised that he fell down, we left thinking that we might have killed him.

MR NDOU: Yes, but you have heard evidence that he was also poured with petrol and set alight, did you see that happen?

MR TSHIBALO: I didn't see petrol, because I was one of the people who stoned him until he fell down. But petrol, I didn't see as to whether ...

MR NDOU: But did you have petrol in your possession? Did you have petrol in your possession?

MR TSHIBALO: No, I didn't see petrol at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you strike him when you threw the stones?

MR TSHIBALO: What I managed to see is stones only, which I was also using. If the other thing struck him, I didn't see.

CHAIRPERSON: The stones you threw, did it strike him?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How far were you from him when you threw those stones?

MR TSHIBALO: We were just close to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but how close? Let's assume where you are sitting now is where you threw the stone, how far would he have been from you?

MR TSHIBALO: Like where you are now.

CHAIRPERSON: Five metres? Are we in agreement with that?

MR NDOU: Yes, we are in agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see Mr Ramarumo burning at any stage?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see Mr Ramarumo burning after he was set alight?

MR TSHIBALO: After striking him with the stones, as he was laying down, I didn't see any other thing and then I took it for granted that the stone that I threw, have struck him to such an extent that he was dead. But that he was burning, I didn't realise that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see him burning?

MR TSHIBALO: No. I cannot remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you left, when you left Mr Ramarumo's house, homestead, did you leave with the rest of the crowd?

MR TSHIBALO: There were certain groups, other were in the front, others at the back and others were in the middle, people were so many.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you leave his homestead together with the others?

INTERPRETER: He is asking for the question to be asked again.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left that homestead of Ramarumo, did you leave it alone or were you with the rest of the groups, all the people who went there, did they leave together with you?

MR TSHIBALO: I left with the only group which left with me.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was nobody left by the homestead when you left?

MR TSHIBALO: Lukhwa was behind as we were going with Mr Ramarumo, I was left behind.

CHAIRPERSON: You were left behind?

MR TSHIBALO: It was Joseph Lukhwa that was left behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the group then went to Tharaga's homestead, correct, according to your written application?

MR TSHIBALO: Are you referring to the homestead of Mr Maraga?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear.

CHAIRPERSON: From Mr Ramarumo's homestead, his kraal, where did you go to?

MR TSHIBALO: We left and went to the next village, the village next to the deceased, Mr Ramarumo's village.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the name of the persons that you went to?

MR TSHIBALO: It is Laya Tharaga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now, all those people who first went to Ramarumo's house, did they all go to Tharaga's kraal?

MR TSHIBALO: We all went there and then we went to the next kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: You all went there, you all left together and you went to the next kraal together?

MR TSHIBALO: There I am not sure as to whether we went there, all of us. I suspect that another group was left behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me something, at Ramarumo's house, do you know whether anybody was asked to syphon petrol from a vehicle?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I still remember this Owen asking for petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR TSHIBALO: I still remember Owen Simeli asking for petrol from Isaac.

CHAIRPERSON: Only him? Only Owen?

MR TSHIBALO: Including us who were there, we were also asking him to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I also added my voice on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you need petrol?

MR TSHIBALO: We were intending to burn the huts using it.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Ndou.

MR NDOU: Thank you Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did he in fact syphon petrol and give it to you?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did Isaac then syphon the petrol from the vehicle and give the petrol to you?

MR TSHIBALO: Isaac agreed, but he was not close by, he was far away from us because his car was outside the homestead.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, did he give petrol to you in the end, or to anybody in the crowd?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I agree, he gave us the petrol, because it was pumped from his car.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you carry the petrol?

MR TSHIBALO: No, I didn't.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who carried the petrol?

MR TSHIBALO: The people who was in possession of petrol, was Owen Simeli.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who poured the petrol on the later victims or on the houses?

MR TSHIBALO: In the houses of Ramarumo, I didn't identify the person, even in the deceased, I didn't see anybody pouring petrol. What I know is that we used stones. In our group, I suspect the person who was holding the petrol, is the one who poured the petrol.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you see anybody pouring petrol on any victim's body during all those attacks on the 11 houses and the nine people?

MR TSHIBALO: I know of myself who poured petrol in the other incident, the one at Muswodi, it is me who used the petrol.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Interpreter, he said paraffin, not petrol? You poured paraffin which you got from the lady there, carrying the lamp?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, it is true.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now who poured the petrol that Isaac gave to you, which you wanted from him, you yourself asked for the petrol. Who carried the petrol and who poured it on the bodies, and who struck the match to light the bodies or the houses?

MR TSHIBALO: The person who was carrying the petrol, is Owen Simeli, and I agree he is the person who poured it, but the petrol who light it, I didn't see that person because it was during the night and it was dark.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you could see a stone being thrown five metres, but you cannot see who was lighting, striking a match?

CHAIRPERSON: Couldn't you see who was striking that match because that match is in front of that person?

MR TSHIBALO: As he was laying down, I thought he was dead but then I left the place, thinking that he was dead from the stones that struck him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You will agree with me that if petrol is ignited, it is almost an explosion and you would see at least the fire even if you are 100 yards away?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, it is true, but the person who lit it, I didn't see that person.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you during the night ever see any person, the body of a person, being burnt or didn't you see that?

MR TSHIBALO: No, with this one, I didn't see that, but I only know of the paraffin issue.

JUDGE DE JAGER: The paraffin, on who did you pour that?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question?

JUDGE DE JAGER: On who or on what did you pour the paraffin?

MR TSHIBALO: It is in the next incident, there at Muswodi, that is the person that I lit.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you light there, the person or the kraal, the hut?

MR TSHIBALO: I burnt the person. There at Mr Fanyisani's place, there was paraffin which we found from the lamp and I burnt the person there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was that at Tharaga's kraal or at Mrs - Muswodi?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, it is at Muswodi where Fanyisani was there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You had made an affidavit about the incident at Mrs Muswodi's house, I want to refer you to page 45, paragraph 50. Then you proceed at Tharaga's kraal you did nothing, and then paragraph 52 -

You didn't mention that you poured paraffin there?

MR NDOU: Sorry Honourable Member, the incident that is referred to, that is (indistinct) kraal, that is the kraal that they proceeded to and found that there was no one. That was at the very early stages, Muswodi is a different village. I think that relates to incident number 7, 8 and 9 of the matter.

JUDGE DE JAGER: (Indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters cannot hear.

MR NDOU: That will be right at the end, that will start from paragraph 71 where he talks about the incident when they followed Fanyisani Ndou to Muswodi. Muswodi is a village ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: I see.

MR NDOU: The particular incident is referred to in paragraph 82 where he indicates that the -

JUDGE DE JAGER: And did you set her alight?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I set her alight.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you had matches with you?

MR TSHIBALO: I found the matches there where there was a lamp.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay, thank you.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. You have just explained that at Tharaga's kraal you did nothing and you say that you then, the crowd then decided to move to the kraal of Matosi, is that correct?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NDOU: Did you find anybody there?

MR TSHIBALO: On our arrival there, I opened the hut and I looked and there was nobody. As I was trying to get out of the hut, the hut was burning from the front. Because it was dark inside, then I was fighting with the door, so that I can get out. Then I got out, running, following others.

MR NDOU: Where did you follow the other people to?

MR TSHIBALO: Then we were proceeding to Tshirongana's homestead.

MR NDOU: Is that Mr Libada?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes.

MR NDOU: What happened when you arrived at Libada's kraal?

MR TSHIBALO: On my arrival there, I jumped over the fence. As I jumped the fence, there was a house next to the yard. There I saw Mr Libada sitting behind the hut and then I said "are you still sitting here" and the said "yes". Then I said "haven't you heard that we are fighting with people who practise witchcraft", because he was also one of those people. When he answered me he said "no, I don't practise witchcraft alone, I do it with your father who is called Mr Tshabitso." There where he was sitting, there was a spade and wood and then I took wood, I started to hit him. As I was hitting him, I saw him standing up, I thought he was taking the spade, then I took the spade and then I clap him with it, on the head, and then the whole body. Then he ran away to where there were other huts where there was this other group. On his arrival there, I saw him burning and then falling down and then I realised that this person now might be dead.

MR NDOU: How had you identified him as one of those people whom people were alleging were practising witchcraft?

MR TSHIBALO: There was a list as we were moving from one homestead to another homestead, we were not going to any homestead.

MR NDOU: Who drew the list up?

MR TSHIBALO: The list as I am saying by the time I arrived, the meeting was already on. I think the list was drawn there at the meeting where I met those people.

MR NDOU: Did the people know to which kraals they were supposed to go?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, it was known that we have to go from here to where.

MR NDOU: I see. Now from what you are saying, you are saying the only participation which you did at Libada's kraal was as you explained earlier on and as to how Mr Libada died, you only saw fire after he had run to the group, is that right?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, because I was - after beating him from the other side using a stick and a spade, then he ran away to that side, and then I was behind him. When I arrived where he was, I realised that he was now burning and I didn't recognise how he was burning. I saw him burning and then lay down as I was chasing him from behind.

MR NDOU: You will remember from the evidence led in the court proceedings, it was stated that it was yourself and accused 10, your present co-applicant in this application who were actively participating in the killing of these people, what do you say to that?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, I agree with that although in other incidents, I didn't participate because wherever we were going, I was there. I agree that the way I participated, could lead him to say that I was actively involved even there where I did nothing.

MR NDOU: What happened after you had left Mr Libada for dead, where did you go?

MR TSHIBALO: We then proceeded to the other side. On our way as we were going, there was somebody who said something who is called Solomon, Solomon Thomu. We were with him, as we were walking he said there is a certain lady who is called Nenzhelele. It is this guy who said this lady is always with a lady which is dried at the back, carrying that baby at the back. And that lady is found next to the area where there were aloes. As we got there, looking for her, I am one of the persons who were searching for her, there in the bushes of this aloe trees. As we were searching for her, we just saw her house burning. It is then that we went back to that direction where the burning was taking place.

MR NDOU: Whose kraal was that?

MR TSHIBALO: It is the kraal of this Mrs Nenzhelele, I don't know her first name.

MR NDOU: What you are saying is that you never attended at her kraal, is that what you are saying?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, that is what I am saying because I was busy looking for her there in the bushes.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then what happened?

MR TSHIBALO: Then we proceeded after the burning, and then as we were going to the direction of Rakhalaru's cave ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, have we dealt with Rebecca Nenzhelele now?

MR NDOU: That is correct. That is right.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have we dealt with Rebecca or with Meki?

MR NDOU: Rebecca, Meki is right ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Are we going to Meki now?

MR NDOU: That is right. Yes, you can proceed.

MR TSHIBALO: We went to the direction of the cave from Rebecca Nenzhelele's place where there was a meeting. On our way, this Solomon Thomu informed the group that one day he was with Kledi, as he was walking with him, and then they met Meki, Meki Machusa. Then as they were there, they were discussing and he heard this lady talking to Kledi. Kledi was a witch-doctor, and then this lady was asking Kledi for two divine bones, "so that we exchange and then we will give you two zombies, a male and a female". It is then that the group decided that now, "let us go to the kraal of Mrs Meki." It is then that we turned to that direction.

MR NDOU: Okay, before you turned to that direction, I just want to find out, I see here that you indicated that at that stage when Solomon Thomu gave you the story about the zombies and the divine bones, you were on your way proceeding to the bar lounge of Rakhalaru. Why were you proceeding there?

MR TSHIBALO: As we were going there, there was evidence that there is somebody who is not around, who is called Fanyisani, who was not around in the village. She ran away, she is now at Muswodi, and then as we were going to the cave, it is there that we can find assistance of car, we will ask his trucks so that they can lead us to where we were intending to go at Muswodi. That was the idea of going to the cave.

MR NDOU: I see. And this Meki Machusa, was she also on your list of all those people who were suspected of practising witchcraft?

MR TSHIBALO: Meki Machusa and this Rebecca, I didn't find evidence as to whether they were in our list.

MR NDOU: So this crowd followed ...

INTERPRETER: Speaker's microphone is not on, the Interpreters cannot hear.

MR NDOU: So the crowd was going to proceed to Meki's kraal on the basis of what Solomon Thomu had told them, is that what you are saying?

MR TSHIBALO: Yes, that is what I said.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then, what happened?

MR TSHIBALO: From there, we turned to Meki's place. On our arrival there we were singing loudly and there was nobody answering there. Then we proceeded on our way, going to there where we were thinking of going and ask the truck so that they can go to Muswodi. I think from there, as we were going to the cave in a distance, which is like from here to the main gate here, I heard somebody saying "there is somebody here inside the hut" and then we turned back, running.

On our arrival there, I saw somebody running and then that person was running towards the bushes. I didn't know or I didn't identify as to whether it is Ms Meki or it is who else, I heard about it the following day, when I was arrested, that even Meki was killed. But I didn't see what happened to her.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then what transpired thereafter?

MR TSHIBALO: As that person ran to the bushes, we then proceeded to the cave's direction. On our arrival there, he was sleeping in the lapa together with his wife and then we started to shout for him saying he must wake up. T hen he woke up. As he woke up, I was one of the people who talked to Mr Rakhalaru that as you are seeing us here, we are here to ask for your trucks, there is somebody who is said to have left this place and ran away to Muswodi, who is called Fanyisani. Then of course, seeing the crowd, he didn't refuse, he gave us one truck and then we said "no, this truck is not enough, we are so many, it is better if you can also give us this other truck." Then we used them both.

As we were there, I realised that Timothy Magaraba was also there. Because I know that Timothy is a driver, I asked him to assist us by driving another truck to take us to Muswodi. Then of course he agreed and then we got into those trucks and then we left for Muswodi. On our arrival there, next to Muswodi, there is somewhere where there was a bottle store which is outside the stands and then we alighted from there in the bottle store and then I ordered him not to get inside. Then we - as we alighted, there was one son of this Fanyisani who hid in the truck and then he returned back with the truck as they were going back.

Then we proceeded to the house of (indistinct) sister. As we arrived there, I think I saw even Lukhwa and then he was sleeping there. There were two lapa's, one on top and the other from the bottom. There were sticks, I took one and then I pushed her with it, and then I said "are you Fanyisani", then she said "yes, I am Fanyisani", and then I said "Fanyisani, I am here, following you regarding the fact that you fled our country because it was alleged that you were practising witchcraft". She didn't respond.

As there was no response, I started to attack, to beat her, to beat her until she said "yes, it is true. I ran away because there were rumours that people were about to be burnt."

Then I said "we are here to hear from you why you ran away. It means you know nothing about this issue of witchcraft." Then that person said "what you are saying then is true, I practise witchcraft. I took your clothes, a trouser and a shirt. As she was saying that, I realised that yes, indeed there were some clothes which were missing and then, the fact that he left those clothes at Folovhodwe in the pool of blood, and then I started to be irritated and then started to beat her, questioning her. There was a lamp and then I opened it, there was a lamp and matches, I poured paraffin on her and then I lit it. As she was burning, Lukhwa was also assaulting her.

As she was burning, her brother woke up and he was coming to say "no, please". He was coming to say "no, please don't beat me. I also practise witchcraft. When I do it, I do it with Mr Birima". Then we asked where this Mr Birima was staying and then he said "if you want me to point, to show you where he is", then I can show you where he is.

Then we agreed, we left with him and then I was in front with him including (indistinct) and others in the group, and then we proceeded to Mr Birima's kraal. On our arrival, Mr Makwivhile got into another hut, ran into the house. As he was inside the house, I knocked in the house made of corrugated iron and a certain lady came out. I don't know if that lady is the woman of Mr Birima. As that lady came out, she was holding a lamp which used paraffin. Then I told her that seeing us here, we are here because of Mr Makwivhile. Makwivhile ran into this house, saying that he is practising witchcraft with your husband. The wife didn't respond and then she put the lamp down and stood there. I think she was scared of what we were saying.

It is then that I asked her to give us a cup, then that lady got into the house and gave me a cup and then I took the cup and asked her a box of matches and then she gave it to me, and then we took that paraffin and I sprinkled it. First of all I tightened the door by the wire, then I sprinkled paraffin from the door and then I lit it.

As I was lighting, there was a certain lightning which even ourselves, we were not knowing what was happening and then we lay down. Then two people came out from that house, those people were running to the outside direction. Then we followed them.

As we were chasing them, I saw him fighting with Joseph Lukhwa. Lukhwa was from behind and he was holding a spear and the spear was on his chest, intending to stab him. Then I decided to hit him by the stick, here at the neck and after beating him, he fell down. I realised that he was no longer able to breathe and then we saw the cars, the lights, pointing to our direction, then we decided to run away and disperse because we were thinking that they were the Police who were coming with the aim of arresting us. That is how we dispersed.

The others dispersed to other directions and others were arrested, and I personally went back to my home. On my arrival at home, I entered the hut and thinking of all that we did. Now I was thinking of being arrested, that is how it ended. The following day, on Sunday, the Police came and arrested us.

MR NDOU: I don't wish to take this any further, thank you Honourable Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps again you can just put your case.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Tshibalo, the relatives of the victims would say that you were actually the ringleader of this procession which you were said to kill all the people alleged to be wizards.

MR TSHIBALO: I can agree with their ideas, I think they took it like that.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you, how long do you think you are going to be? We need to make arrangements with the prisons for the prisoners.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't be able to indicate because I am sitting here with one of the relatives, he always supplies me with questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I would have hoped that I had given you enough indication of what our attitude is, but be that as it may, are you intending to call any witnesses?

MR MUSHASHA: Just one.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one?

MR MUSHASHA: Just one. Those are my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MUSHASHA: Thank you. Thank you. You said yes, to my question? The attitude of the victims is that all that you did, had nothing to do with the political climate at the time, what do you say?

MR TSHIBALO: That is not true. It was linked with politics.

MR MUSHASHA: They will say even at the present moment, at Folovhodwe and Muswodi, there are people who so to say practise witchcraft in the sense of being herbalists, who would be in the same category with some of the people you had killed and if you were to be set free, those people because of your attitude towards them, would, their lives would be endangered?

MR TSHIBALO: I agree that when a person has committed a crime and found guilty, the people you have wronged, even if you get outside of jail, when they see you, they will still fear, afraid that maybe that person is still having that idea, but which is not true, because we have now changed our minds. Now we are able to see that now that we have applied for amnesty, we can now speak the crimes we have done, I feel I can say that that person might be just presuming that I will kill that person, but myself, if I am saying that now I have forgiven, if I am forgiven, I have seen the wrongs I have done, but now we are saying that the thing of the past, because we were also including politics by then because the leaders by that time, who were ruling here in the former government of Venda, which was oppressing us, it was another course which led us into taking the decision of burning those people, so that the former Venda government is rendered ungovernable. But now I am saying that person must take away that idea, we are no longer in that thing, we are now Christians.

MR MUSHASHA: The victims would say that from your testimony it appears you were acting merely on hearsay, you did not have concrete evidence which put you on action in the killings, and they will further say that you have done a lot of damage, you have destroyed property, you have also caused a lot of orphanage in the area and your presence there would not be welcomed any longer.

MR TSHIBALO: I think that is not true. I can still be accepted because I am no longer living in that, because now what we did in the past, I think I am no longer going to do it again.

MR MUSHASHA: Their attitude is that you killed innocent people who had nothing to do with politics, who were not members of any political organisations and you also destroyed property which had nothing to do with witchcraft as you put it.

MR TSHIBALO: Witchcraft was also involved there.

MR MUSHASHA: They will say that in actual fact, apart from the stages, that is the stages from your, which came subsequent to the incident to your father's kraal, the earlier stages, with regard to the earlier stages, you actually minimised your role. What actually happened was that you were the one responsible for the recruitment of all the young people to execute this evil project.

MR TSHIBALO: That is not true. I was working by then, or in the first place. That is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairperson, that would be all from the position of the victims, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any questions?

MR NDOU: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any more witnesses?

MR NDOU: That is all Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mushasha, have you got any witnesses?

MR MUSHASHA: Just one witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Who will that be?

MR MUSHASHA: Isaac Ramarumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramarumo, what language would you prefer?

MR RAMARUMO: Venda.

ISAAC RAMARUMO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA: May I proceed? Mr Ramarumo, is it true that you are the son of the deceased Jack Ramarumo?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, it is true.

MR MUSHASHA: You know the two applicants, is that correct? That is Mr Lukhwa and mr Tshibalo?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes. Yes, I know them, they grew before me.

MR MUSHASHA: And then, when the incident relating to the deceased Jack Ramarumo, your father occurred, you were present at home, is that correct?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, I was present at home.

MR MUSHASHA: You actually lived with your father in the same kraal, is that correct?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, it is correct.

MR MUSHASHA: You have heard what the two applicants testified about in front of the panel.

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, I heard all that.

MR MUSHASHA: Would you be able to explain whether from your point of view, they were making a full disclosure about their participation in the incident respectively?

MR RAMARUMO: I think they disclosed nothing at all, because I was the leader of the ANC in our village, but I was never informed about this thing or to attend any meeting relating to that. I heard about it at the time as it was happening, as such I don't think this thing have got anything to do with politics.

MR MUSHASHA: What position did you hold in the ANC organisation in respect of the Folovhodwe/Muswodi region?

MR RAMARUMO: I am only in Folovhodwe, I was the Secretary.

MR MUSHASHA: During the time, did you used to hold political gatherings?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, we used to hold political gatherings, but not the gatherings similar to that of Tshibalo and Lukhwa. Those are the new meetings in our village.

MR MUSHASHA: Were you aware of any gathering or meeting wherein the role of witchcraft, relating to the political setup at the time, was discussed?

MR RAMARUMO: No, I haven't ever heard about that.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did you hold? Secretary of what?

MR RAMARUMO: Now I am no longer the Secretary, but I am still a member.

CHAIRPERSON: That time, you were Secretary of what?

MR RAMARUMO: I was the Secretary of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: where?

MR RAMARUMO: In our village, at Folovhodwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the branch?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, it was a branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Who from your branch would attend the sub-regional meetings?

MR RAMARUMO: It is Manroma.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR RAMARUMO: It is somebody who is at home now.

CHAIRPERSON: What position would he have had?

MR RAMARUMO: He was the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And do you know whether he would attend the regional meetings?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, sometimes he used to attend meetings from Thohoyandou. We used to attend certain meetings. That is something that I know.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard previous evidence ...

INTERPRETER: Interpreters cannot hear, the microphone is off.

CHAIRPERSON: We have had previous evidence about the attitude of the ANC with regard to witchcraft and it seems, we were told, it was not contested at the time, that members, high ranking officials from outside the province, from outside Venda, were in contact with people within Venda, including the youth, about - and spoke about witchcraft and the role witchcraft was perceived to be playing politically and that that matter should be dealt with. Do you have any knowledge about that?

MR RAMARUMO: No, no, I didn't know about that or rather I have no idea about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Ramarumo, it is according to the record of the proceedings relating to this matter, the songs which were sung during the processions were "hogu-hogu-hogu", do you know about that song?

MR RAMARUMO: I heard them being sung, but some of these songs have got something, that some of the songs were related to political issues, I know.

MR MUSHASHA: I am talking about the "hogu" song in particular, is it a political song?

MR RAMARUMO: No, "hogu" is a song from the traditional initiation schools.

MR MUSHASHA: Which song do you regard, did you regard as a political song at Folovhodwe?

MR RAMARUMO: The song which I say is a political song, is when we sing a song called "Siyaya Epitori".

MR MUSHASHA: I see. Now you have heard what Mr Lukhwa, the first applicant, testified in relation to the death of your father. I believe you were present when that incident took place, is that correct?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MUSHASHA: Is it correct that, did he present the role which he played correctly before the Committee?

MR RAMARUMO: I think he presented nothing at all because the crowd came to me as I was standing. The hut in which my father was sleeping in, was burnt. Mine was on the other side with a car, then I moved to the other side, seeing the hut burning.

MR MUSHASHA: What did you see him do, Lukhwa, if anything?

MR RAMARUMO: What I saw is that I was stoned here at the stone mark, and I didn't realise the person who threw the stone which struck me.

MR MUSHASHA: So you, did you see what the second applicant did to your father at the time?

MR RAMARUMO: No, I don't want to tell lies. I didn't see that.

MR MUSHASHA: Any other thing in terms of which you would say the two applicants were not making a full disclosure of their participation?

MR RAMARUMO: Looking into these things, I think these people as we are talking about reconciliation, it is evidence which as myself, I must put it forward so that we can also see that what a person is saying, is the real truth. But if there is two or three things which they don't want to mention, then I think there is secrecy as such. I think forgiveness from our side, we won't accept it from those people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Tell us, what didn't they tell us about? What should they have told us that they hadn't told us?

MR RAMARUMO: These people they should have indicated that they are the people who actually killed, because they said they were in front, but they didn't mention that, but if a person is in the front and the person even didn't manage to see a person who killed, I don't think they disclosed that issue. I think there is secrecy or something which is being hidden behind that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who had the petrol and who struck the match? Who burnt your father?

MR RAMARUMO: No, that I don't know, because I was not in that group.

MR MUSHASHA: Is that all Mr Ramarumo?

MR RAMARUMO: Another thing they are not disclosing is when the petrol is being poured. Nobody is getting burnt, because if I light something here, if I light petrol here, the people who are close by, must get burnt or at least get minor injuries, but it seems there was a party which was, which a certain group was involved in and then the other party did the other action, when you look at this issue, which shows that Mr Lukhwa is now, I don't think he shouldn't need to be accused in this issue, because there is nothing which is in line with what he did.

As such I think in all these things it is not jealousy which he was doing, I don't know how to call it. I think, I don't see that there is any possibility of forgiving them. Although lastly, when you look at these people, they are not afraid of zombies, but they opened the huts of the people with zombies, meaning that they are not afraid of zombies. I thank you.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Ramarumo, may I find out if you have also discussed this matter with the other families who have been victims of this incident?

MR RAMARUMO: Speaking on behalf of these other families which came here, as we were discussing about this thing, they ended up saying that they foresee no reasons why they should forgive these two men. We love them, we stay with them, but they have done us a grievous wrong and we are feeling pains and we don't think there is any way in which we can forgive them.

I think it is better for them to remain in jail where they are and then we will feel relieved, as long as they are not being killed, they will be still alive.

MR MUSHASHA: Any other thing, Mr Ramarumo?

MR RAMARUMO: I think that is all.

MR MUSHASHA: Thank you Mr Chairman. That will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Perhaps one or two questions, Honourable Chairman. Mr Ramarumo, what I find strange with your submission is that you tell us that they didn't make a full disclosure, but you fail just to mention one single fact to indicate as to what they have left out. Can you give an

explanation for that?

MR RAMARUMO: I thank you. Regarding what Mr Tshibalo is saying, when you look into it in detail, if I am a member of the ANC, what they did and I wasn't aware of it, it means there is something sinister and the fact that they struck my with stones, they didn't mention that. That they killed my father using an axe, nobody is disclosing that.

I think there are so many things. If each and everybody can be given time to explain, then there will be many things which they didn't disclose.

MR NDOU: Let me ask you again, you agree that initially before the High Court there were 11 accused persons and of those 11 accused, it is only these two applicants who are still in prison and the nine are roaming your village, is that right?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, I won't dispute that.

MR NDOU: Yes, it is a fact. Now, what would be the problem with these two in going back to the village if the other nine are already at your village?

MR RAMARUMO: From my observation, I think if people were killed, people saying the people were witches, but now that we still have witches, it means that thing is still there, and I think there will still be a continuation.

MR NDOU: I don't wish to take this any further, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I don't think you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, is witchcraft still being practised here in the area?

MR RAMARUMO: Yes, you won't dispute that, because there are people who are still being killed so far.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of witchcraft?

MR RAMARUMO: One won't know as to whether it is jealousy or, a person would kill you saying you are practising witchcraft simply because there is jealousy in him or her.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, okay. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other witness, Mr Mushasha?

MR MUSHASHA: No, no other witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I have no further evidence, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mushasha, we would like to have a list of the victims as defined in the Act. When can we have that?

MR MUSHASHA: The problem will be the definition of relationship.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, let me give you an example, where a person has been killed, it is a male, then his wife and children would be victims. His aunty and his niece and nephew, are not. Where he didn't have a wife and children, then his mother may be a victim, but I would advise you to look at the Act then. Maybe you can talk to Mr Mapoma to guide you on that, but we need a list because there have been nine murders, we are not too sure of how many victims per deceased there are. You are the only person who can help us on that.

Would it be possible to have it tomorrow?

MR MUSHASHA: It is possible to have it tomorrow, but not in the morning because there are certain members of victim families, who are not present today.

CHAIRPERSON: But is there a representative of each family present?

MR MUSHASHA: Except for the two families. There were two representatives who were said to be still coming, but now to my knowledge, they have not yet arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, have you got a list of victims?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, we do have a list which we have been working on, but it is not as thorough as it would have been, had one consulted with the victims direct.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Wednesday morning at the latest, I would have expected you to have had that list already, after all you are appearing for the victims.

MR MUSHASHA: Yes, yes, I can't promise you did not expect this, but as I am saying by tomorrow afternoon, I think it will be ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am going to give you until Wednesday morning.

MR MUSHASHA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If nothing is forthcoming, we are just going to go ahead and make the decision without that.

MR MUSHASHA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the roll for today, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, do you want to argue? I don't know if you need to argue?

MR NDOU: I thought I would do them all simultaneously, unless - any time, I wouldn't have any problem, I am prepared. I thought I was going to deal with argument of all the incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem from previous experience with you, that you would have gauged what the position is in any case. We leave it at that, if you want to argue, then you argue. If you don't want to, then it is also okay.

MR NDOU: Yes, Honourable Chairperson, in all fairness, I think I have had a look at the matter and as the applicants are performing and ...

CHAIRPERSON: I don't expect you to commit yourself.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mushasha, we don't need your argument, and neither do we need an argument from ...

MR MUSHASHA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the members of the Prison Services here, the Correctional Services? I don't see. Can you come forward please?

I wonder if it is possible to have these prisoners here tomorrow early, at about half past eight, quarter to nine, we would like to start at nine o'clock?

CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Nine o'clock?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. These two prisoners that have just finished their evidence, they don't have to come. They can, they need not come, we are done with them. Okay, thank you.

Yes, we will adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow, sharp.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Please don't let us sit and wait for anybody again.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, can I see you in my rooms, please?

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