--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. For the purposes of the record, I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues to announce themselves for the same reason and thereafter the various legal representatives.

MR MALAN: Wynand Malan.

ADV SIGODI: Adv Sigodi.

ADV STEENKAMP: Andre Steenkamp, I'm the Evidence Leader. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: Crystal Cambanis, representing the Naidoo family.

MR ROSSOUW: Fanie Rossouw, Mr Chairman, from the firm Rooth and Wessels Attorneys, representing Mr Bosch.

MR HUGO: Schalk Hugo, Mr Chairman, I'm acting on behalf of Mr E A de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you first?

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, I believe that Mr de Kock will testify first.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mr E A de Kock.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr de Kock, you're the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And your application appears on page 18 to page 27 of the bundle which has been given to you.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And you confirm the contents as true and correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You're also asking the Honourable Committee to take note of the fact that you have also submitted a further document to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in respect of the general background, the political motivation and that you ask that to be incorporated in this application.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You're also requesting the Committee to take cognisance of a further document drafted on your behalf and submitted, in which you dealt with Vlakplaas, the origins of Vlakplaas and the political motivations behind Vlakplaas, etcetera.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And you're asking that that be incorporated in your application as well.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Then to turn to the incident itself, you refer to a meeting which you had with Mr Chris Kentane ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where will we find that?

MR HUGO: Chairperson, it is on page 19 of the bundle, first paragraph.

Could you just tell us how it happened that you met him and who introduced Mr Kentane to you?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, Mr Kentane was introduced to me as a former member of the Rhodesian Selous Scouts and amongst the black members he was the most highly decorated member of the Selous Scouts. He was unemployed at that stage. He'd previously worked at the Water Board in Johannesburg and he was introduced to me by a former Rhodesian.

At that stage - if I say "we", I'm referring to our unit, we were looking for people would could move around in neighbouring States and who knew the areas and he actually satisfied all those requirements.

MR HUGO: Did you meet him and have a discussion with him?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Where did the discussion take place?

MR DE KOCK: At Morula Sun.

MR HUGO: And then what arose from this discussion?

MR DE KOCK: What arose was a report which I submitted to Gen Joubert, who at that stage was second in command of Security Police at Headquarters. Arising from documentation and reports from Security Headquarters in which the request was made that the Security Branch members should try to neutralise members of the ANC. The word "neutralise" was used in the context of whether it be done by means of recruitment or death and that all attempts should be made to stop ANC members, where possible, outside the borders of the country.

Such a report was drafted and Mr Kentane's particulars were reflected and the report was approved, initially for six months, that the operation would run for six months as they say, and after further reports from our side it could have been extended.

I checked Kentane's bona fides with Maj Ron Daly and he confirmed that the person was as he was said to be.

MR HUGO: Now what did this report entail? Firstly, about the function and the orders of Mr Kentane.

MR DE KOCK: I referred to the documentation and the circulars that were sent to us, amongst others C1 Unit, with the order to neutralise or to stop the ANC outside the borders of the country and I also gave his own detail and why he would be particularly suited to this task, because he'd already worked in those areas when he was a member of the Selous Scouts and had acted against AZAPO and AZANO.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Kock, what was your aim in appointing this man, what was he meant to do?

MR DE KOCK: He had to move across the border and he had to infiltrate ANC or PAC structures for us and the method he was supposed to use to - he had to befriend people that he met on the ground, these PAC/ANC people and thereafter he had to try to attack high profile targets, as high a profile as possible. To attack and to kill them, either by shooting them or by using explosives.

MR HUGO: If I understand your evidence correctly, this order was contained in the submission, the written submission which you made to Gen Joubert.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR HUGO: And he approved that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Did you specifically indicate to Gen Joubert in which neighbouring countries the operation was to be launched?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, we mentioned that the man would move in the Botswana area and also in Zambia, specifically those two countries. He had previously worked in those countries when he had been fighting AZAPO and AZANO for the Selous Scouts. We didn't want him to work in Zimbabwe as a result of the fact that he could have been identified.

MR HUGO: If you say the operation was approved, was there any logistical support given to Mr Kentane after the approval of the operation?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, apart from the fact that he got a monthly salary he was also given a secret fund car or vehicle which was not traceable back to us. We also provided him with weapons and ammunition and explosives of Russian origin, also not traceable back to the Police or to the SAP.

MR HUGO: Could I just ask you, the weapons and ammunition given to him, these were illegal weapons and ammunition?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And these weapons and ammunition had been stored at Vlakplaas?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

The Technical Department prepared a vehicle for us, it was a bakkie, it had concealed panels in which these limpet mines, explosives and weapons etcetera, were to be concealed.

MR HUGO: Now after the logistic support was provided, what did he do with it?

MR DE KOCK: The weapons and explosives were concealed at Vlakplaas and Mr Kentane was accompanied to Kopfontein gate on each occasion. That's on the Botswana border. I know I went with him a couple of times so that he didn't have problems in transit, for instance at a roadblock. And he always contacted us when he arrived back, so we could welcome him back at Kopfontein gate and accompany him back.

His orders were to establish caches on the other side, in other words Botswana or Zambia, with the objective - the planning was to recruit more of these agents later, but also that he would not return with these weapons and explosives. That was the idea.

MR HUGO: Now did he report back to you at certain times?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. He also had two telephone numbers. In Mr Bosch's office there were two telephones connected to tape recorders so that he could phone from wherever he was. Both these numbers were unlisted and only agents knew these numbers. In this way he could keep us informed of his movements.

MR HUGO: Were you his handler at all times or did you appoint somebody else at some stage?

MR DE KOCK: No, I delegated to Mr Bosch right from the start. As far as the handling was concerned, he had the necessary background and Mr Bosch then reported back to me.

MR HUGO: In your application you say that his service rendering was bad, it was disappointing but he did report to you about two incidents at some stage, two incidents which had taken place. What were these?

MR DE KOCK: In the one case, on the road between Plumtree and some other place he was travelling with a member of the ANC, he got a lift from this person because his own car was not operating, and he later shot dead this person with a .25 pistol. We tried to identify this person by means of the photograph album, but we weren't successful. According to Mr Kentane this member of the ANC at that stage was in possession of a Tokarev pistol and he didn't succeed in whipping it out in time, so Mr Kentane succeeded in shooting him. In a second ...(intervention)

MR HUGO: I beg your pardon, just on this point. Could you through your enquiries, determine whether there had been such an incident and whether there was any truth in his version?

MR DE KOCK: There had been a report in one of the Botswana dailies regarding a person who had been found and the person had been shot, and the facts in the newspaper corresponded reasonably with what Mr Kentane had told us, but we couldn't identify the person as an ANC member.

MR HUGO: Can you give us a time, more-or-less, when this incident took place?

MR DE KOCK: Unfortunately I can't give you a month or a date.

MR HUGO: Not even whether it was in the '80s or the mid-'80s?

MR DE KOCK: It was in the late '80s.

MR HUGO: That was the first incident and then the second incident which he reported to you, what was that?

MR DE KOCK: He reported in that case that he had made contact in Lusaka with a group, a group known as the Kabalalas, the Kabalalas were apparently something similar to - it was some kind of a reference or a community of people who were engaged in robberies and various criminal acts such as housebreaking etcetera, and that these persons were available to assist him in attacks and so on, attacks on ANC targets.

He also mentioned that he had contact with certain people in Lusaka. He didn't refer specifically to members of the ANC, but he did say that there was a group of between four and five people who had one evening gone to a farm outside Lusaka, I think it was 25 kilometres outside Lusaka, where they did attack an ANC house and that they had shot dead an Indian man there.

The first report which Mr Bosch and I got about this was when there was a report in one of the English newspapers about such an attack on a farm outside Lusaka. Mr Kentane upon his arrival back in the Republic, which followed shortly after this attack, I think two or three days, reported to us and gave us the detail. I'm not sure, but I don't think Mr Kentane had read the newspaper at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a South African newspaper?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it was.

MR HUGO: And the stage at which this report appeared, would that have fitted in with Mr Kentane's version? Were you convinced that this was a true, a bona fide operation?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it was in the period during which Mr Kentane had been in Zambia and Lusaka and I also made certain enquiries at the Police Intelligence section, whether they knew anything about this and they didn't. I think I still spoke to Brig Alf Oosthuizen. I also enquired from the CCB, from Col Joe Verster. I made a personal enquiry. I drove to Speskop to find out whether they had agents and whether they had carried out the operation and he became very upset about this. He said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Kock, before you continue, why did you regard it necessary to check this out?

MR DE KOCK: I wanted to be sure in my own mind whether it was our own agent who had committed this act.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any reason to doubt this? Did you have any reason to think that he would lie to you?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I just wanted to make sure for my own purposes, in my own mind, that this was not an overlap of agents, a kind of a double-cross by which agents try to benefit themselves because the operation was financially remunerated, and that's why I went to Verster to enquire and he became very upset to hear that we had an agent there, because he said that Zambia and Lusaka in particular, were their field, their section, that was Defence Force area. This enquiry was merely to get clarity in my own mind as to whether it could have been our own agent.

MR HUGO: When Mr Kentane reported to you about this operation that between four and five people had gone to the farm and had killed this man, did you see this as in accordance with the order and the instruction which you had given him?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Was Mr Kentane remunerated in any way for this operation?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, he was.

MR HUGO: How did it work, the remuneration?

MR DE KOCK: It was a claim which was instituted referring to the details given by Mr Kentane, as well as an annexure of the newspaper report, plus there was a short report from myself to say that I had made enquiries in intelligence circles and that there was no other person aware of this shooting.

MR HUGO: Can you remember how much he was paid?

MR DE KOCK: No, I can't.

MR HUGO: Now the approval for this money, the remuneration and the disbursement, was it submitted to Gen Joubert?

MR DE KOCK: I don't know, I'm not sure, I would probably have made this submission to my own senior Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Kock, I read on page 20 that according to Kentane, he had a .25 pistol which he had used.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he told you?

MR DE KOCK: That was found on the person which he'd shot on the road between Plumtree and Gaborone.

CHAIRPERSON: You see it's not very clear, was it only in that case which he had a .25 calibre?

MR DE KOCK: The weapons which we gave him to establish caches in Zambia and Botswana, contained a variety of things like Makarov pistols, there were AK47s, these were combat rifles, and he was also given an automatic .22 rifle, which is a fully automatic rifle, plus handgrenades, plastic explosives and limpet mines.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell us, what did he actually tell you? When he came back, what did he actually tell you about the attack on the house with all these robbers and so on, what did he actually tell you?

MR DE KOCK: During the enquiries we made from him he didn't go into specific detail, it was relatively wide. We were interested in the fact that they were in fact members of the ANC, the people who were killed. We didn't ask for a description of the house. What I do know is that they used the bakkie to drive to that house, his vehicle, and also that there was an Indian man who had been killed. That's all I know. Because we also only put in a claim for one person killed. He didn't mention more people who were killed.

MR HUGO: Could you please try to give us a time when this operation took place, more-or-less.

MR DE KOCK: I unfortunately can't do that. It would have been the day of Mr Naidoo's death.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know it was a Mr Naidoo?

MR DE KOCK: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that the person whom Kentane had referred to, was a Mr Naidoo?

MR DE KOCK: Then newspaper at the time gave a name and that was the name which had been given.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let us accept that, but is that the only reason why you say today that it was a Mr Naidoo?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that was the name. I also later made enquiries about a person by that name and that was the person given as killed. Mr Kentane didn't say that it was Naidoo, he just said that they attacked a farm, a house and that an Indian man had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: And what he told you and what appeared in the newspaper you regarded as the same incident?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it happened in exactly the same period of time and during the time that he was there.

MR HUGO: Did Mr Kentane after this operation, make any reference to the fact that some of the people who had been involved in the operation with him had been arrested and were in detention and were to be prosecuted?

MR DE KOCK: No.

MR HUGO: You've noticed from the documents that there's reference made to a Tex who later died, did he mention anything about a Mr Tex or that he later died?

MR DE KOCK: No, he only said that there were four to five people who had gone to the farm.

MR HUGO: In your application you also say that later on you started having doubts about Mr Kentane's bona fides and that you thought that he might be a double-agent.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. Yes, I could not exclude that possibility as a result of later events.

MR HUGO: And he was then transferred to Swaziland.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And he was arrested there. Please tell us what happened, what gave rise to this and what happened afterwards.

MR DE KOCK: In Swaziland, because we had quite a free access to Swaziland and we could move around freely, we could monitor him on a very frequent basis, almost a daily basis. So it was a question of having a much easier way in which one could check up his reports and verify them, and within a week he was arrested there and - I'm trying to think of the name of the area, anyway he was arrested, he had a Makarov magazine in-between the seats of his car. It was found at a roadblock by the Swazi Police. They searched his car, they found the magazine and they arrested him and detained him for that.

The pistol and the silencer and the other ammunition, that was not found, that was in a concealed panel and later I got the vehicle branch of Ermelo to investigate the car and to remove the pistol and magazines.

Mr Kentane was to get bail, we arranged for that. It was also done through the Ermelo Security Branch and we then brought him back across the border and his bail was declared forfeited.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you or your people manage to get bail for him?

MR DE KOCK: I contacted the Ermelo Security Police and they had contact with the Swazi Police and that's how it worked, through that channel. I didn't myself have contact to those members of the Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what would have happened, surely there must have been a Magistrate who was presiding, how could you arrange it for him to get bail?

MR DE KOCK: I think one must look at what the Swazi Police said to the Magistrate regarding Mr Kentane, because the vehicle in which he'd been found was a vehicle given to us by the Port Elizabeth Security Branch and which had previously belonged to Prof Peter Vale(?) The liaison between the Swazi Police and the Magistrate, I can't comment on that, I can only testify on what I arranged with the Ermelo Security Police. Mr Kentane, we were able to get him out on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue.

MR HUGO: In respect of the vehicle of Prof Peter Vale, is was a stolen car which the Security Police stole from Prof Peter Vale, in Port Elizabeth?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You knew that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: What was your understanding as to how or why it had been stolen from Peter Vale?

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Peter Vale knew himself as well?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, he just couldn't say who had done it, but it later it appeared who it actually was.

Please repeat.

MR HUGO: You knew it was a stolen car and that the Security Police had stolen it?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Why had the Security Police acted in this way?

MR DE KOCK: As far as the Port Elizabeth Security Branch is concerned it was because they were regarded as leftists, left-wing people and the idea was to cause them as much damage and harm and financial harm as possible. We got several vehicles from them in this way. Some of these cars I later gave to the CCB.

MR HUGO: Is it correct that you understood that this was part of the Security Police' actions aimed at disrupting the liberal elements as part of the struggle and that's why you as a policeman didn't think it necessary to report it?

MR DE KOCK: No, it was a fairly common practice to steal the opposition's equipment and to use it against them.

MR HUGO: And then you mention the possibility that you could have dropped weaponry by means of parachutes, this was pure speculation, it never actually materialised?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct. If Mr Kentane - Mr Kentane's order from me was to find out whether we couldn't get the leaders of this group in Lusaka closer to the border at Katima Molilu, so that I could cross the border and contact them and have discussions with them so that we could direct them and use them against the ANC in Lusaka. That was one of the thoughts that came up. As Mr Kentane said, they had enough weapons but the didn't have ammunition and I would have attempted to drop the ammunition, or in some other way get it to them.

MR HUGO: But the fact of the matter is this was mere speculation and it never materialised?

MR DE KOCK: No, it didn't.

MR HUGO: Now in the documents there's a reference to statements of the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Pik Botha, were you aware of any such statements by Pik Botha after this incident?

MR DE KOCK: No, he made so many statements and now he says he never was in the National Party, so I can't take that any further.

MR HUGO: The fact of the matter is that you didn't report to Mr Pik Botha in respect of what happened here, there was never such a direct contact between the two of you?

MR DE KOCK: No.

MR HUGO: Did you report to Gen Joubert?

MR DE KOCK: No, I would have reported it to Brig Schoon, because the claim that had to be paid out would have had to go through him for approval and then also to the Head of Security, Chief of Security for endorsement, so I would have reported it to him but I have no independent recollection of that.

MR HUGO: Is it correct that the channel of command was based on the fact that Brig Schoon, in turn, would then go to higher officer and it would depend on whether they took it further to the politicians or not?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, because it was also an allocated operation with a specific reference.

MR HUGO: And then as far as the political motivation is concerned, very briefly, why did you give this order to Mr Kentane and what did you seek to achieve?

MR DE KOCK: Chair, these were actions against the ANC and the PAC, we wanted to try and stop the enemy wherever we found them here or abroad and the general attitude was that almost the whole of Africa was our operational area and it was on that basis that I launched this action.

MR HUGO: And you're asking for amnesty for murder on Mr Naidoo and the murder which took place in Botswana. Do you have any doubt in your mind that you order and the operation of Mr Kentane, did in fact - or let me limit it to Mr Naidoo, that that in fact gave rise to that and that's how it happened?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that's why I'm applying for amnesty, otherwise it would have been easier for me to deny it.

MR HUGO: And do you have any doubt that the information which Mr Kentane gave you in respect of the person who had been killed in Botswana, that that was not true but false?

MR DE KOCK: No.

MR HUGO: You're also requesting amnesty for the illegal possession firearms to which you referred?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And you're also asking for amnesty for the possession of stolen goods, namely the vehicle of Prof Peter Vale?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And amnesty in respect of any delicts which might have been committed in the process and which is covered by the evidence which you've given?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct. Mr Kentane had also been given a false passport and ID book, so I also ask for amnesty for that.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr de Kock, I just for a moment want to focus on the role which Mr Bosch as handler, was meant to play, Mr Bosch as handler of Mr Kentane, and I want to ask you whether you would agree with this. Mr Bosch says that as handler he actually fulfilled three basic functions, the first was to give logistical support to Mr Kentane.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And that would include the vehicle, the bakkie in other words, which was technically prepared with false panels etcetera.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And he also says that - you also mention in your statement that Mr Kentane also had to start a business and use that as a cover to make contact with people abroad.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch also tells me that he remembers that certain motor spares were bought at Fleischman's at some stage, for Mr Kentane as part of his business, to take out of the country as products, to export them.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, he also had invoice books and order books and everything that went with such a business.

MR ROSSOUW: And Mr Bosch as his handler, would have had to arrange for all of these things as part of logistical support?

MR DE KOCK: Correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And you could also included in this the provision of armaments, weaponry and explosives?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch says that the approval which came from Headquarters had a special approval number, it was an S number.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And all purchases and disbursements and payment of salary would have been done using this S reference number.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it was an approved operation.

MR ROSSOUW: And the second function which he was supposed to fulfil was to give administrative support such as doing all the paper work for lodging a claim, the payment of salaries etcetera, and also the writing of reports.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch will say that he reported to you after reports or messages were received on the tape recorders in his office and this would sometimes, not always, be contained in the report.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And he would say that the last function which he fulfilled as a handler, was to give moral support to this person because this person was a single operative in a foreign country.

MR DE KOCK: Correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: In your view, could there have been any other functions which a handler had to fulfil?

MR DE KOCK: No, that includes everything.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr de Kock, then Mr Bosch says that the way in which he understood Mr Kentane's orders to operate in a foreign country was that the capacity or ability was given to him to identify people, in that he went with Mr Bosch to look through the terrorist photograph album and he had to memorise people's faces and he would then have to attempt to identify them in the other countries.

MR DE KOCK: Correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: He will also say that support was given to him by means of weapons and ammunition, but the carrying out of that and whom he targeted etcetera, was in Kentane's exclusive discretion.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. As I said he had to look at the highest possible profile ANC or PAC member which he could target. I can only mention that we had very good, very clear aerial photographs of the whole of Lusaka, so we could show him street names and everything, where the homes and facilities etcetera, were, to be able to give him some direction from our side.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes, but the point is he was never given an order to eliminate a specific person at a specific place.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson. The information which we generated through the intelligence channels, we filtered through, we screened it or filtered it so that Mr Kentane could not identify the sources and then we gave him the information which we could, to point him as closely as possible in the direction of the target. But we left it to him to - based on his capacity, to move and to get away and to escape etcetera, to fulfil that function.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch also says that his recollection is, and do you agree with this, that Mr Kentane received R2 000 for the people that he killed?

MR DE KOCK: I won't dispute that, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And Mr Bosch will also say that he agrees with you that Mr Kentane did not mention Mr Naidoo's name, it was the connection between the report, the newspaper report and the information which Mr Kentane gave of an Indian man which led you to that conclusion.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And then at the stage when he was transferred to Swaziland, Mr Bosch says that he was no longer Mr Kentane's handler, he says he thinks it was Mr Piet Botha.

MR DE KOCK: It is possible, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And Mr Bosch will also say that he didn't know that the vehicle which was stolen from Prof Peter Vale actually came from Prof Peter Vale, he only knew that it was a Professor whose car had been stolen.

Then regarding the contact which Mr Kentane was instructed to keep with Vlakplaas, Mr Bosch says that the telephones were in his office and that the initial arrangement was that Kentane had to phone him once a week, but that he phoned at irregular hours and he didn't keep to that arrangement.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson. One of Mr Kentane's complaints, well a complaint and an explanation was that when he wanted to phone from public phone booths, that the phone booths were either out of order or totally destroyed and he struggled to actually get through to us.

MR ROSSOUW: And then he was supposed to return to Vlakplaas once a month, I suppose to then also draw his salary?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: But he didn't always follow the channels by leaving a message and that you then, or Mr Bosch then drove to meet him at the Kopfontein border post. In some cases what he did was he just turned up.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, it did happen. Obviously such an operator works in a very unconventional way and there can be no rigid guidelines.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr de Kock, Mr Bosch's actions and his handling of this person was at all times under your command and supervision.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, and I also take responsibility for that.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

Sorry, did I hear right that Mr Kentane did not even say the name Naidoo to you, that was just a conclusion that you drew?

CHAIRPERSON: ... that he testified. He drew the conclusion from the newspaper report.

MS CAMBANIS: And in summary, you have absolutely no proof to present to this Committee that Mr Kentane was in fact talking of Mr Naidoo?

MR DE KOCK: Please repeat the question.

MS CAMBANIS: There is nothing that you can place before this Committee, to prove that Mr Kentane murdered Mr Naidoo?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, physically I can't give any proof.

MS CAMBANIS: And it is possible that Mr Kentane read the same reports and took credit for a false operation? Claimed for a false ...

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, in my view I can't say it's impossible but I'd say it's improbable because I did enquire from other intelligence services and I did a verification where possible, not with the view to corroborate his salary or his remuneration, but simply to find out was it our agent or not, because one wanted to have as much control as possible.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you know, Sir, that during the same incident it was not only Mr Naidoo that was killed at that location, but another member of ANC, Mr Moss Mtunge?

MR DE KOCK: I did see in the documents.

MS CAMBANIS: But Mr Kentane never mentioned that he had killed two people?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, how the attack took place, whether they divided up into two groups or two and one of three, I don't quite know how it exactly happened.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, but he only mentioned that a person, a member of the ANC had been killed, according to you.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And I think you've given evidence that he was paid per murder.

MR DE KOCK: Well Chairperson, there was an official scale of remuneration for arrest or killing of terrorists, it was a document which was classified as Secret and Confidential and this was at Headquarters and people were remunerated according to this.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, but it was per head so to speak.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And the fact that two members of the ANC had been killed in that incident would mean that he would be able to be paid double.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I suppose you can take it like that, but I went on the information which Mr Kentane gave and also what was said in the newspaper report.

MS CAMBANIS: And can you think of any reason why he would only take half his remuneration?

MR DE KOCK: I don't know if he knew the other person had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: But if he was there he must have known. According to the evidence in the documents the bodies of two people were placed in a bath full of water after they had been shot dead.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, I can only tell you what I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: So he must have known if he was there. I'm not asking you why he didn't mention it, I'm simply saying he must have known if he was there. He must have known that two people were killed.

MR DE KOCK: One must assume that he must have known, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Now given your operation, you would have had a general idea of what was happening in Lusaka of that period. If someone had have been arrested for the murder of Mr Naidoo ...

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I didn't have any such detail. I didn't pick it up from the information or intelligence sources and I didn't pick it up from the press either.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Kentane was not your only operative in Lusaka, surely.

MR DE KOCK: No, I believe that Military Intelligence, the CCB and National Intelligence all had sources there, the SAP as well.

MS CAMBANIS: And shortly after the murder of Mr Naidoo, a Mr Tex was charged and arrested in Lusaka, for the murder of Mr Naidoo.

MR DE KOCK: I saw that in these documents.

MS CAMBANIS: And it was publicised at the time. I'm putting that to you, Mr de Kock.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I was not aware of these reports, but I can't say that it didn't happen.

MS CAMBANIS: And what you're telling this Committee is that with all your informants and all your intelligence, that never came through to Vlakplaas or to any ... to you knowledge, that someone else had been charged with the murder of Mr Naidoo, who was not your operative?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I never became aware of such detail.

MS CAMBANIS: And as you've said, you communicated with the CCB people and other State departments and no-one told you, "But hang on a minute, someone else had been arrested, not your operative"? Or not a South African operative.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, nobody told me that. As I've said, I also couldn't pick it up from the press reports. I'm sure I would have mentioned it. It would have been for me a further corroboration in respect of the fact that there had been such an attack and the circumstances surrounding it.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you know this Mr Naidoo who was murdered in this incident? Did you know him?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the photograph album contains about eight thousand photographs and names, so I wouldn't have known everybody.

MS CAMBANIS: These are the photograph albums that were shown to the operative, Mr Kentane?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Eight thousand photographs?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. Many of the photographs had been cancelled because the people had died and others had been neutralised by means of recruitment etcetera, although their faces were never cancelled because then people would have known that they were sources.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, is it your evidence that in 19 - sorry, when was Mr Kentane - when did you meet him first?

MR DE KOCK: If I remember correctly it was in 1989.

MS CAMBANIS: He only began working for the State in 1989?

MR DE KOCK: Excuse me, I just want to get a pair of headphones.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, we're just having a problem to hear, can we just get one of these earpieces, or whatever they're called.

MR DE KOCK: Okay, if you can try again.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much. You met him in 1989, as far as you remember?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And to your knowledge that is when you recruited him for this type of work, in 1989?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And you say the training he received was the going through of these albums containing eight thousand photographs?

MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, the photo albums were shown to him and as far as possible we worked on memorisation of these photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall what month you actually met him?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson no, unfortunately not.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it early in the year or later in the year or in the middle of the year?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I tried to work it out this morning and I tried to link it to a season and I can't even do that.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were you his handler before you sent him outside the country?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I think it was between a month and six weeks.

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, Ms Cambanis.

Mr de Kock, am I understanding your evidence correctly, that you're saying that Military Intelligence, National Intelligence, CCB, SAP, all had their own agents there?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR MALAN: And I also understand you to say that some of those members had already been recruited and then continued to operate as PAC or ANC members abroad.

MR DE KOCK: I will accept that some of those people did in fact have such agents there, I personally didn't have such an agent.

MR MALAN: Because you said that some of the photographs in the album represented people who had already been recruited, but their photographs were not cancelled because that would actually expose them to risk.

MR DE KOCK: That's right. I'm also referring to, for instance the askaris who worked for us, they were not cancelled in the photograph album so that that could not be a clue to people.

MR MALAN: So then my question is aimed at this, isn't it incredibly irresponsible to send a person in who can eliminate or take out your other informants etcetera, as if he has the total discretion as to whom to kill?

MR DE KOCK: It can be seen in that way, yes, but in our case I didn't see it as quite so irresponsible, you try and contact and liaise with other Intelligence Services to cancel out any overlap or problem, so that you don't eliminate their agents. In other words, what I mean by eliminate is kill and in this case Mr Kentane succeeded to kill members of the ANC.

MR MALAN: Ja, well we're not sure about that yet, because we only have his word and yours, or his word to you. But I just want to get back to the whole principle. If you sent Kentane in and some of the other agents from, say Military Intelligence or CCB, go in and they eliminate him or take him out because they saw him moving around the ANC circles, how would you feel about that?

MR DE KOCK: Obviously that is seen as an operational loss, it can happen.

MR MALAN: So you were quite satisfied to kill each other's agents or place each other's agents at such risk?

MR DE KOCK: That's how it seems today, but it didn't appear to be like that at the time. But it's possible that agents could be killed in that way.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr de Kock, what I'm trying to understand is how Mr Kentane was prepared for this. Eight thousand photographs, is it your evidence that those photographs were all either bona fide members of ANC or double-agents?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, it was the ANC and PAC terrorists, that was the photograph album and only members of the movement appeared in that album.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you've just told us that certain photographs were not cancelled or taken out because people were operators of the ANC or PAC who were turned or had been turned, were still left in that photograph album as members of the ANC or PAC.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you sent out an operative of yours to commit murder, he would go there and he could have thought that certain people were targets, whilst they actually weren't.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, at Vlakplaas he moved around freely amongst our askaris, so he wouldn't have killed any of them ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He couldn't, Mr de Kock, because they were not in Botswana.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about the people who were there, send somebody and say "Look, these people, the people that you saw in the photograph album, those are the people who are members of the ANC or the PAC". The understanding is that if he sees them there, then he must kill them.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson yes, it would have been left to his discretion and that's also my order to him, that he should have gone for people with a highest possible profile.

CHAIRPERSON: Please just tell me something, these photographs in the album, those eight thousand faces in the photograph album, was Mr Mandela's photograph in that book?

MR DE KOCK: No, he was in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter could not understand the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you distinguish between those people and high profile people?

MR DE KOCK: Depending on the status lists that were updated quite regularly, one could for instance say "look A is currently in Lusaka and he is the Head of Ordinance or whatever and B is in Lusaka and he is Chief of Transport", for instance, and you would then act accordingly. I can just also add that some of those photographs were taken when some of these people were 18 or 19 years old and they'd already been in exile for a period of 20 years. So it does not necessarily mean that he would immediately identify the person just from the photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the purpose of showing him the photograph album was to help him to identify these people.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, but I must say it was a high risk operation.

CHAIRPERSON: No I can understand that, it was a high risk operation for many people. What I'm trying to find out is this, the ordinary ANC member, if such a person's photograph was in the album - or was such a person in the album?

MR DE KOCK: Are you talking about the person who died in Lusaka?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, any person. Any ordinary ANC member, would such a member's photograph have been in one of those albums?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, if those photographs were available as they were obtained from our neighbouring countries and Security Branch members, when people went outside the country, they went to these people's homes to try and get photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: So ordinary members of the ANC in other countries, were also targeted?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I don't understand your evidence, because your order, as I understand your evidence is, or your order to Kentane was to infiltrate and make friends with the members of the ANC and kill the high profile people. That is what your evidence was.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So why - why I'm asking this question is to try and find out how Kentane would have known who was high profile and who wasn't?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, as the people on the ground liaised with each other and socialised with each other, it would have been left to Mr Kentane to identify the leaders of the movement and then where it was within his capabilities, bearing in mind his ability to escape and not to be caught, then to carry out the task.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he told how to identify these people?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, to give you the scenario, if he for instance met somebody in a pub or in a bar and it later appeared - and he befriended this person and it later appeared that this person was a member of one of the liberation organisations and this person referred him to his leadership, then it would be left to Mr Kentane to decide. He could make use of several methods, he didn't have to just shoot a person point blank. He could for instance plant explosives or put a limpet mine underneath his car. He was a highly trained member and he already had that kind of experience.

CHAIRPERSON: So who was actually Kentane's targets?

MR DE KOCK: Members of the ANC and the PAC, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's something different from high profile members.

MR DE KOCK: Well a person, normally in this kind of job, you try and reach the heads or the chiefs of an organisation or the most senior people in an organisation. I can for instance refer you to the numerous attempts to try and eliminate Mr Hani.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. The whole world knew that Mr Mandela was the big ringleader in the ANC, is that not true?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: He was not a target because he was in prison, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Not as far as I know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No I mean as far as you and Kentane was concerned.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, he had already been neutralised, if a person can look at it like that.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was no threat? He was no threat to the South African Government, he was in the government's prison.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What about a person who was a member of the ANC, who was not a threat to the South African Government?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, at the time, in those days any member of the ANC or PAC was regarded as a threat, an enemy of the State and that's why they were banned, also when you were a member of the SACP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but why were they not a target for killing?

MR DE KOCK: Is that now Mr Mandela?

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mandela is in prison, I'm talking about an ordinary ANC member who is not part of the leadership structure. Would he have been regarded as a target?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: By Kentane, that is.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, these people were actively directed or aimed against the Republic and they were not favourably disposed to the government and they formed support structures and support lines for attacks into the country.

CHAIRPERSON: So such a person must also be killed?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the ANC was our enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I don't understand. According to the reasoning of the South African Government at the time, the UDF was just another name for the ANC. Do you remember that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, it was regarded as the internal wing of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: And numerous people were put in prison without trial.

MR DE KOCK: Correct, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Why were they not eliminated or killed?

MR DE KOCK: I had no orders to kill anybody in the UDF. If I had such an order, I probably would have carried it out.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr de Kock, what worries me, or what gives me some trouble here is that there are certain requirements laid down by the Act, that have to be complied with and we as a Panel have to bear that in mind, and on the basis that we assume, and I'm not saying we do so, but on the basis that we assume that the person that Kentane killed, had been Mr Naidoo and the deceased in this application, that Mr Naidoo and the deceased in this application are the same people, if we assume that, then on what basis was he a target?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, because he was a member of the African National Congress and as such he was aimed against the Government of South Africa and our stability which we tried to maintain in the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Simply because he was a member of the ANC?

MR DE KOCK: Well if you were a member of the ANC, then you were the enemy. For us it was a very simple thing, just like SWAPO ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But your order to Kentane was "Kill the high profile people in the ANC".

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, well that would have been the best scenario ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, his modus operandi, as I understand your evidence, must have been "befriend ANC members on the ground so that you can infiltrate and thereby get to the high profile people in the organisation" and in that way he could kill the high profile people.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, that would have been one of the possibilities. If it was necessary for him to kill an ordinary member of the ANC, then that would also have suited us. As I said, if one can do it in terms of rank, it's better to kill a Brigadier than a Constable on the ground, in this type of war. So you would point him to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And if you get the Constable, it's also fine?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it's also fine. We lost many, many Constables on the ground during this period. The ANC and the PAC took no prisoners, policemen were shot without further consideration, in the townships. It was a filthy war and the one in the shadows was even filthier.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand your evidence correctly then, that you say that the death of this person, Mr Naidoo, was justified in terms of law, simply because he was a member of the ANC?

MR DE KOCK: I wouldn't say according to law, but I would say according to the circumstances reigning at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: The Act says so. I referred you to certain provisions in the Act which we have to make sure have been complied with. Now I just want to understand your application properly. If we assume that this person who was killed was the same person, then according to your evidence you're saying that his death was justified purely because he was an enemy of South Africa at the time, simply because he was a member of the ANC?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the ANC was a hostile enemy organisation and it committed acts of terror within the Republic.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know at that stage that he was a member of the ANC?

MR DE KOCK: I didn't know all eight thousand faces or people, but if Mr Kentane attacked a person then it would have been a member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's the next question I want to get to. Was this person's photograph in the album?

MR DE KOCK: I don't know if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you check it out, didn't you check whether there was such an Indian man, Mr Naidoo?

MR DE KOCK: I don't know, I don't have an independent recollection of that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, do you remember - let us say it was Mr Naidoo who was killed by Mr Kentane, and it is the same person, the deceased in this application, if those two are one and the same, would that have been the only Mr Naidoo killed outside the borders of our country, as a result of ANC operations?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, it's the only one that I'm aware of who was attacked by Vlakplaas, according to our operator. I didn't kill any other Naidoo's as far as I know.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

Mr de Kock, you confirmed that the brief to Mr Kentane was to assassinate or murder leadership of the ANC.

MR DE KOCK: Well amongst other things, Chairperson, if we could kill ordinary members, then it was alright, it was aimed at the ANC and the PAC.

MS CAMBANIS: And you said in response to a question, that Mr Kentane would have to identify the leaders, it would be up to Mr Kentane to identify the leadership.

MR DE KOCK: Not only the leadership, also ANC and PAC members. And the identification would have taken place or would have been facilitated by people whom he'd befriend, maybe people who lived next door to ANC members in places like Gaborone and Lusaka, or by means of the people themselves. So in other words, he uses his own initiative and gathering of intelligence on the ground as he moves around.

MS CAMBANIS: Is it your evidence that in 1989, the State was not aware of the who the ANC leadership was?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, they did know. The leadership situation however was not discussed right down to the ground on a one to one basis, it was just ...(indistinct) generally.

MS CAMBANIS: Did the photographs of the ANC leadership not appear in those photograph albums?

MR DE KOCK: There was some of the ANC leaders who had their photographs in the album, but some of these photographs were taken when these people were 18 or 20 years old.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr de Kock, where are these albums now?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I don't know. Mine as far as I know, I handed in at Headquarters. Every Security Branch had one and I think at Vlakplaas we had six or seven. I think Head Office should still have some of these albums, because along with each photograph album and under each photograph there was a number and the number you can then compare with an index list which accompanies the photograph album, which then gives the person's name and MK name or other descriptions.

MS CAMBANIS: So it was not possible to tell Mr Kentane from the photograph albums, who is the leadership of the ANC or PAC?

MR DE KOCK: Well in certain instances you might have been able to do that. What you had to look at is, what is your capacity to absorb it, to absorb so much detail and to memorise it.

MS CAMBANIS: Chairperson, may we take the adjournment at this time?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you still got long to go, Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: ...(inaudible)

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: (Cont)

Mr de Kock, what was Operation Delta?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, it was the name given to this operation, as a reference. In other words, you wouldn't for instance say "Kentane has crossed the border", you would say "The Delta guy" or "The Delta has crossed the border", something like that. That was the reference given by Headquarters for this operation.

MS CAMBANIS: So Delta only applies to Mr Kentane?

MR DE KOCK: That's right.

MS CAMBANIS: Is Mr Kentane a South African citizen?

MR DE KOCK: He was when we recruited him, but as far as I know he was a Rhodesian, a Zimbabwean.

MS CAMBANIS: But at the time he was recruited he was a South African citizen?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Where is he now?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, as far as I know he is in the Gauteng area somewhere, I think the Johannesburg area. Where exactly I don't know. I can try and enquire but physically obviously it's difficult for me.

MS CAMBANIS: Tell me, after a member of the ANC had been eliminated, were other operatives informed of this?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, in Mr Kentane's case no, we tried to keep it as quiet as possible. The information channel was very short, just myself, Bosch and Kentane and I think one or two of the white people, members, who knew, but as far as possible we tried to keep his operation and his movements as secret as possible.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, but the albums, if I can get back to the albums. The persons who had been eliminated, their photograph would still stay in the album?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson no, in cases where members of the ANC had been shot dead here or abroad or had been arrested, it was cancelled, but in the case of askaris like we had at Vlakplaas, it was not done.

MS CAMBANIS: So they won't an attempt to remove that photograph from the album?

MR DE KOCK: No, the album stayed in its standard form.

MS CAMBANIS: Why was that?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, where it was cancelled, those people had been killed or they were in custody, then one would cancel the photographs in the album, but in the case of the askaris it was not cancelled, to ensure that it does not become clear to the ANC should that they later make enquiries or if they find out that the people work for us or whatever. In other words, the people were still operative. It was actually just to cause confusion.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr de Kock, sorry, I didn't put it properly. A member of the ANC who had been murdered or assassinated, would their photograph still remain in the album?

MR DE KOCK: The photograph would remain because a number was still linked to that photograph and the photograph would stay in the album, but it was just cancelled.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon. Mr de Kock, you said there was an index and index entries, would you then make an addendum in the index to say that the person had been killed etcetera?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, and if I remember correctly, in the album a thin line would be drawn through the photograph and written "killed" and a date.

MR MALAN: Can you recall that you ever followed it up and updated the index etcetera, after Mr Kentane made his report?

MR DE KOCK: No, I have no independent recollection of that. It's not impossible, but it's also possible that we didn't do it.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Ms Cambanis.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would you not have done it?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I wouldn't have done it personally, I would have asked somebody to do it or I would expect it to be done, but I myself didn't do it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm asking, your album, the album which you handed in, why would it not have been done?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I'm not saying it wasn't done ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But in case it wasn't done, why wouldn't it have been done?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, we wouldn't have wanted to link it up with Mr Kentane, that was just an internal situation as we operated it.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was your secret album, what threats or risks could have arisen if this thing had been cancelled?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson no, it was simply just an internal measure on our side to ensure further secrecy. The album, it wasn't a question of it being my secret album, the albums were in use at Vlakplaas and all the askaris also had access to the photographs to be able to bring themselves up to date with new recruits and people who entered the country or who were sent out of the country. So for the Security Police it was a secret document, it wasn't available to the normal Police Force or to members of the public.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the point. I just want to ask something here, the way or the practice of how this album was handled and the fact that a person could never be sure who had been killed and who wasn't and who was a member of the ANC and who wasn't, who's an agent and isn't an agent, it was such an untidy confused set up, did you people - were you ever worried about the possibility that somebody might be killed unnecessarily?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the photographs of all the people in the album were photographs of members of the ANC/PAC ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And what about your own agents?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I for instance had agents in Swaziland, who were members of the ANC, whose photographs were indeed in that photograph album, but I didn't cancel them and I also didn't send out a telex to say "Cancel, they are now my agents." That is simply a risk which you have to run, but the risk is higher should there be a leakage of information and then it's obvious that sources would be removed to Quatro or a place near Lusaka, where they would be tortured and killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Quatro, is that where the South African Government bombed the area when there was nobody in the town?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson. With Gerard Dietrich's espionage, I think it happened on two or three occasions - I think it might have been Nova Katenga, which had been bombed when it was empty, but that was purely due to Gerhard Dietrich, or Dieter Gerhard's work. Quatro was an ANC torture camp, where people were tortured and killed, South Africans, and women in that camp were also subjected to rape and sodomy by ANC members. And also the Sun City camp near Lusaka, where some of the most abominable deeds possible to imagine were committed. That is what Quatro is.

MS CAMBANIS: So the summary is that when these albums were shown to operatives in order to train them, who the members are that must be killed, half of the people could in fact have been deceased already, is that what you're saying?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, four thousand members of the ANC had not been killed.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us say 2 000.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the photograph albums were there for identification purposes and that's what they were used for, but all of us in the Security Branch knew that 2 000 members of the PAC or ANC had not been eliminated.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the point, Mr de Kock, is this, that that album although it had been used for other reasons, as far as Kentane was concerned it was used to give him information as to who were members of the ANC as targets in his operation Delta?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: That is what the attorney is actually asking you.

MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, I've already testified that information which we received from the Intelligence Services in the Defence Force, that information we filtered and that which related to Zimbabwe and Botswana, or Zambia and Botswana, we tried to channel to Mr Kentane in such a way that he wouldn't be able to infer where the information came from or what the sources were. Where possible we tried to support him as far as possible with what was available.

MR MALAN: Mr de Kock, just the following question. As the evidence stands now, it sounds like Mr Kentane's order was to kill any one of the 8 000 in the photograph album, but earlier you talked about high profile people and that that was the aim. In other words, this album would also have helped to do the infiltration, he didn't have to kill everybody, he had the discretion.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he had the discretion, he had to make the decision on the ground. An operator decides on the ground what would be the best way of doing something and to decide what is the highest profile person that he can kill. Now if an ordinary member of the ANC, an ordinary member, if he could isolate such a member and kill him, that was also acceptable.

MR MALAN: Now I'm trying to determine his order and the reason why you showed him the album, because he got an order to infiltrate.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR MALAN: To reach the higher profile circle or members, you said something like that.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR MALAN: So the photograph album wasn't simply a question of "Look, memorise these 8 000 faces and kill them wherever you find them", he had to use them in whatever way possible to reach the higher profile people and then to use his discretion to eliminate certain people.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, we gave him the widest possible latitude.

MR MALAN: And if he could kill all 8 000 of them himself, it would have suited you?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So his discretion was a totally unfettered

discretion?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, if it was an ANC or PAC member, he was an enemy and you could kill him.

MR MALAN: Thank you. Thank you, Ms Cambanis.

MS CAMBANIS: What did he actually tell, why did he kill Mr Naidoo?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) whoever he killed, ...(intervention)

MS CAMBANIS: When he reported back to Mr de Kock ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say it was Mr Naidoo, so the question must refer to whoever he killed.

MS CAMBANIS: I beg your pardon. That is correct, sorry, Chair.

The person that he killed, he alleges that he killed, what did say, why did he murder that person?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give reasons?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, what I can remember today is that it was an ANC facility where they went to and they attacked it. In other words, I believe that Mr Kentane was fairly convinced that the members or people he'd find there, would be ANC members. It wasn't an ordinary farm with ordinary farmers living there.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you say that because Mr Kentane told you that it wasn't an ordinary farm?

MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, Mr Kentane was the person who was there. Mr Kentane was in Lusaka and that's the intelligence that he gathered there. He didn't got to any other farm.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr de Kock, you may be interested to know that that facility was visited by members of the international community and it was found to be precisely that, a farm.

MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, it might have appeared to have been the case on the surface, but it didn't necessarily mean that there weren't other activities going on there, or that other actions were launched from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Kock, you only had the word of Mr Kentane.

MR DE KOCK: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is the same person who you later had problems with, with his credibility.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is being put to you is, it is possible that maybe Kentane had lied to you. It's as simple as that. Is that possible?

MR DE KOCK: In other words, Chairperson, that he did not attack the farm and did not shoot somebody?

CHAIRPERSON: Or that it wasn't what he said it was.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson no, all I can tell you is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is what he told you.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, and I'm applying on that basis for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand that, but what is being put to you is - well it's not being disputed what he told you, or what you said that he told you, what is being put to you however, is that it is possible that he could have told you it was a farm or a place where firearms and so on and weapons were being stored, and the point that is being put to you is that it wasn't like that and that an international monitoring team went to this place and found that it was indeed a bona fide farm.

MR DE KOCK: I can't dispute that.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.

Mr de Kock, you're familiar with the process when a member of the ANC was captured, on occasion albums would be shown to them during interrogation, to identify fellow MK or ANC members.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Are these the same albums that were in your possession, or similar to the ones that were in your possession?

MR DE KOCK: Similar, yes, and there was also an additional card index system which they also used. However, I didn't work with that myself.

MS CAMBANIS: And finally, Mr de Kock, the mother of the late Mr Naidoo, Dr Phyllis Naidoo, seated, has herself worked at the ANC ...(indistinct) and has had occasion to have sight of some of those albums and it is her recollection that her late son's photograph did not appear in any of those albums.

MR DE KOCK: I can't dispute that, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Nothing further, thank you Chair.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, any questions?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Chairperson, just two matters.

Mr de Kock, the order which you got from Gen Joubert after you made the submission to him, how did you understand it, was your action to be aimed specifically against senior high profile members of the ANC, or against the ANC in general?

MR DE KOCK: No, against the ANC in general.

MR HUGO: And when you reported to Brig Schoon or your senior after this incident, did they in any way reprimand you and say to you, "But look, was this in fact a high profile members who was killed?"?

MR DE KOCK: No, not at all.

MR HUGO: And there were no repercussions whatsoever, for yourself?

MR DE KOCK: No, on the contrary, they approved the claim.

MR HUGO: A last aspect. The administration of these albums, this was done by C2, is that correct? This is a different section, different to the Security Police?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And you to a large extent, relied on what C2 told you, they did the administrative functions.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And it was simply then conveyed to you in your capacity as operators, who then had to act on the strength of that?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR DE KOCK: Thank you.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, I believe the next witness will be Mr Bosch - applicant, and I'll ask that he be sworn in.

ISAK DANIEL BOSCH: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Bosch, you are an applicant in this matter, you request amnesty and your amnesty application, the formal part of it appears on pages 1 to 7 of the bundle, do you confirm that? Do you confirm the contents?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Is it your signature on page 7?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch, then you also made a short additional statement, supplementary to your application, is that the statement found on pages 8 to 13?

MR BOSCH: Correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And the specific incident, operation Delta, that appears on page 11, paragraph 15.

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch, you've also supplemented your application to comply with the Act, and that part which relates to this incident is found on pages 14 to 17, is that correct?

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Is it your signature at the bottom of those pages?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Then in 1989, where were you working and what was your rank?

MR BOSCH: I was working at Vlakplaas, as a Sergeant.

MR ROSSOUW: Who was the Commanding Officer at Vlakplaas?

MR BOSCH: Col de Kock.

MR ROSSOUW: And as far as Operation Delta is concerned, could you please just very briefly tell the Committee how you became involved in it.

MR BOSCH: I was approached by Col de Kock, he told me that I would be the handler of Christopher Kentane, and ...(intervention)

MR ROSSOUW: In other words, you got an order from him?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: And were you introduced to Mr Kentane?

MR BOSCH: Yes, I was.

MR ROSSOUW: Tell us briefly what your role was as the handler of this person, what exactly did it entail?

MR BOSCH: It was logistical and administrative support, as well as moral support.

MR ROSSOUW: You don't have to go into too much detail, but could you just lift out the main points as to what logistic support of Mr Kentane would entail.

MR BOSCH: Mr de Kock gave me a vehicle which I took to the Technical Department, they spray painted it and they built false compartments into this vehicle.

MR ROSSOUW: What was the purpose of these false compartments?

MR BOSCH: So that we could convey weapons through the South African and Botswana border posts, so that the man could establish arms caches in Zambia. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR ROSSOUW: And then the administrative support, what was that all about?

MR BOSCH: I wrote his reports, it had to be approved by Col de Kock and it had to be handed in and I dealt with the financial side of his salary and claims and his petrol, petrol vouchers I had to get that and process that so that he could be paid out for his petrol consumption. So it was all the financial part of it.

MR ROSSOUW: And then moral support, what sort of moral support or support did he need?

MR BOSCH: I just feel that if you're a handler and you have somebody who you leave out in the cold, he has to know that he can return to somebody and phone and just say "Look, just check up on my wife and children". There must just be somebody for him, somebody he can turn to.

MR ROSSOUW: So you were the first contact person?

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Alright. Now as far as the contact is concerned, what precautions were put in place relating to your office at Vlakplaas?

MR BOSCH: Two telephone lines were installed, connected up to answering machines and he had to phone me once a week. It didn't matter, any time of night or day, the machines were always on and I would then know what his movements were, where he was, was he healthy and well.

MR ROSSOUW: And when you got these messages what did you do further?

MR BOSCH: Well I would report to Col de Kock, as to the man's movements, whether he was in Zambia, Lusaka, that he was alright and that he was busy working.

MR ROSSOUW: You heard that this operation had been approved at Head Office, did you have personal knowledge of that?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson, in the man's file there was the approval and also the approval number and the whole motivation for the operation.

MR ROSSOUW: Is that the motivation Mr de Kock referred to, which he wrote?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson, and that was shown to Gen Joubert.

MR ROSSOUW: You say the authorisation also had a number.

MR BOSCH: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: What was the purpose of that number?

MR BOSCH: I think it was for administrative purposes at Headquarters, so that they could know that if something came in a claim or whatever, they knew what it was connected with and what it related to.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch, in your application you say that Mr Kentane was trained at Vlakplaas by being shown the photograph albums of the ANC/PAC exiles, etcetera, and he had to memorise these, can you briefly tell the Committee what this process entailed, how was it done?

MR BOSCH: What happened, I would have gone to Section C2 and then new people who had been arrested had worked through the album and they would say, "Look, I saw A, B or C in Lusaka." I would then have taken those numbers in the photograph album and shown it to the person and said, "Look, if you see these people, please confirm it and tell me where they are."

MR ROSSOUW: Now apart from being on the lookout for these people, what further orders would he have been given to do outside of the country? This is Mr Kentane.

MR BOSCH: He had to establish arms caches, he took photographs of ANC facilities outside our borders and he could eliminate these people.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you at any stage receive an order to convey to Mr Kentane, to eliminate a specifically targeted person, an identified person in a neighbouring country?

MR BOSCH: I don't understand your question.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you at any stage receive an instruction or order from Mr de Kock or anybody else, to tell Mr Kentane that he had to eliminate a specific person, person A, outside of the borders of the country?

MR BOSCH: Yes, after we showed him the photograph album, I would say to him, "Look, try and find this person and eliminate him."

MR ROSSOUW: Was Mr Naidoo ever identified in this way?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you know Mr Naidoo?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: The incident in which the Indian man was shot dead in Lusaka, could you tell the Committee how was that reported to you by Mr Kentane?

MR BOSCH: I listened to my telephone messages in the office and there was a message that there had been an attack on an ANC farm and that one person had been killed, that was all, and I reported that to Col de Kock. I think three or four days after that he just arrived at the farm. He didn't arrange for me to go and fetch him, he just arrived.

MR ROSSOUW: What did you tell you at that stage, what happened?

MR BOSCH: That there'd been an attack on a farm with those robbers and during the debriefing session, I realised that some of the detail was very vague. I wanted a description, I wanted to have a plan as to what the farmhouse looked like etcetera, so that I could verify it with C2's people who had been on the farm, with some of the ANC people who had been on the farm, but it wasn't quite successful.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not? Why couldn't he give you this detail?

MR BOSCH: Chairperson, he couldn't give me the finer detail.

CHAIRPERSON: Could he tell you why he couldn't do that?

MR BOSCH: No, he just said he was nervous and that that happened during the night.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch, you've heard Mr de Kock testifying that he couldn't give a description of the farmhouse, the house on that farm, is that correct?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: The fact that he couldn't give you the finer detail of the whole set-up on the farm, what was your conclusion from that fact?

MR BOSCH: I'd handled quite a few people - well, not quite in the same kind of situation, but it did happen in the past that if a person had been to a place once he could tell me what exactly it looks like, where the vehicles are, where the back door was, but I simply couldn't get that detail from him.

MR MALAN: The question is, what was your conclusion?

MR BOSCH: My conclusion was I was uncertain whether he had really been there or not.

MR ROSSOUW: We'll return to this specific incident, Mr Bosch, but just quickly ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bosch, you said that he turned up three or four days later at Vlakplaas.

MR BOSCH: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen a newspaper report of the incident before he arrived there?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, not yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that a report could have appeared in the newspaper of that country?

MR BOSCH: Yes, it is possible, Chairperson. And there was another point, if you drive from Zambia, he never did it within three days, he always took a week or longer, so the period which he took to return, the period between the phone call and the time that he turned up on the farm was very short.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before he turned up, had he phoned?

MR BOSCH: Three or four days.

CHAIRPERSON: So he could have listened to a radio report?

MR BOSCH: He had a radio in his vehicle.

MR MALAN: Mr Bosch, why do you say three or four days is too quick? From Lusaka to Pretoria is about a day's hard driving, you can definitely do it in two days.

MR BOSCH: You can, but in the past he had never moved that fast, he always phoned me and said, "Look, I'm in Lusaka, meet me in a week at Kopfontein border post at such an such a time, it will take me a week," because he always came across with the ferry.

MR MALAN: Yes, but in this case he hadn't even told you he was coming.

MR BOSCH: No, he didn't, he just turned up.

CHAIRPERSON: But in any event, he said that he had committed the act.

MR BOSCH: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And then on his own version he came here within three or four days?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not necessarily so that he had to take a week to drive that distance?

MR BOSCH: No, what I must also concede is that if you did a think like that you probably wanted to get out of the area as quick as possible.

MR MALAN: Or if you'd read such a report and you thought you could capitalise on, you know, making such a claim for money?

MR BOSCH: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So there are lots of possibilities.

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosch, at the point where the idea that you had to go and fetch him at the Kopfontein border post, was that part of your duties as a handler?

MR BOSCH: Yes, I always accompanied him there and back.

MR ROSSOUW: And you also heard Mr de Kock testifying about that?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson, I confirm that.

MR ROSSOUW: Now the compensation which he got, did you handle that?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Mr de Kock told me to submit a claim and I did so, a claim of R2 000 and it was paid out to him.

MR ROSSOUW: Did he at any stage mention the Indian person's name and say that it was Mr Naidoo?

MR BOSCH: No.

MR ROSSOUW: After he had reported to you at Vlakplaas, did you see newspaper reports which described Mr Naidoo's death?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson, Col de Kock showed it to me.

MR ROSSOUW: Were there photographs of Mr Naidoo in the newspaper?

MR BOSCH: No, as far as I can remember it was a very small report and there was no photograph.

MR ROSSOUW: So did you at any stage have the means at your disposal to reconcile the name in the newspaper with the possible photograph in the terrorist album?

MR BOSCH: Please repeat the question.

MR ROSSOUW: So would you have been able, in any way, to link the name of Mr Naidoo in the newspaper report, with any of the photographs which might have been in the photograph album?

MR BOSCH: I could have used the index, the names were in the index and you could work from the index to the photograph album. But I don't think there was such a name in the album.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you have a christian name for him, a first name?

MR BOSCH: No.

MR ROSSOUW: Then Mr Bosch, on your evidence, you had doubt whether Mr Kentane was indeed responsible for the death of Mr Naidoo.

CHAIRPERSON: If my doubt was so severe, I wouldn't have applied for amnesty, so I can't say today that he did do it or he didn't do it. I can't say that. There are certain things which don't quite hang together and quite gel, but I don't know.

MR ROSSOUW: Then Mr Bosch, you also listened to Mr de Kock's testimony about the political motivation and the objectives of Operation Delta, do you agree with that?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Do you agree that the targets which Mr Kentane had to attack or eliminate, was entirely in his discretion?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Do you confirm the political objective set out on page 17, top of page 17?

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And in this case you always acted on the orders of Mr de Kock?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you receive any compensation for your role as a handler?

MR BOSCH: No, nothing apart from my ordinary salary.

MR ROSSOUW: And your actions in carrying out the orders was not aimed at people and arising from personal malice or spite?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Then Mr Bosch, you're applying for amnesty for conspiracy and planning to commit a murder, murder of unknown persons and also for the handling of weapons and ammunition, illegal weapons and ammunition and also for the forging of documents such as for instance, identity documents and passports.

MR BOSCH: Correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And a last point, you had no knowledge of - or did you have any knowledge of the stolen vehicle which was later given to Mr Kentane?

MR BOSCH: Col de Kock told me - I was on leave for a month, and he told me that they'd used Mr Kentane in Swaziland, using a stolen vehicle which had come from P.E. and that he'd been arrested.

MR ROSSOUW: So you were not present when this stolen vehicle was received at Vlakplaas?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: So you're then also applying for amnesty for defeating the ends of justice?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, that's my evidence-in-chief.

MR MALAN: Just before you finish, you said that your client is applying for conspiracy and planning for the murder of unknown persons, I think that should be limited to conspiracy within the framework of Operation Delta.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes. Mr Chairman, my apologies, I actually thought that I would rephrase it and maybe I should put the question to the applicant, to bring it in accordance with the provisions of the Act.

Mr Bosch, you're applying for amnesty for conspiracy to commit murder of unknown people, members and supporters of the ANC or PAC, being liberation organisations, is that correct?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: My apologies, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Bosch, it could only have been via Operation Delta, surely? It can't cover anything else.

MR ROSSOUW: That is exactly correct.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Bosch, your legal representative would have gone through the bundle, you would have seen at page 35 that a Mr Naidoo and a Moss Mtunge were killed on this occasion.

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's Mtunzi.

MS CAMBANIS: Dr Naidoo's handwriting ...(indistinct). Thank you, Chair.

Prior to seeing this bundle, did you have any knowledge that a second person had been murdered?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: At page 36 you will see the name of the person responsible appears. Prior to seeing this bundle, did you have any knowledge that someone had been arrested for the murders on these two persons?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, I saw it now in the bundle.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Bosch, I'm sure at previous hearings you dealt with your application at page 5, paragraph (c) and (c). We haven't had the benefit of that previous evidence, could you explain to us what you mean about doing this - you received money and bonuses for the work that you did?

MR BOSCH: Chairperson, this is something which is constantly cropping up. This was for a Lesotho thing and Col de Kock gave us each R60 after the attack to take our people out for a dinner. It had nothing to do with this.

MS CAMBANIS: You mentioned in-chief that you were uncertain whether Mr Kentane had been responsible, in your own mind.

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Just please summarise for me what steps you took to ascertain that he carried out this operation.

MR BOSCH: Chairperson, it was the only person whom we had who was working in Zambia, so I went to Col de Kock and de Kock, as he already testified, asked the CCB and he asked various people in the institutions, just to try and pick up the loose threads so that we had a complete picture.

MS CAMBANIS: Dr Naidoo has the press reports relating to the death of her son and it may interest you to know that they only refer to the death of her son and not to the second person, is that what you recall?

MR BOSCH: Please repeat the question.

MS CAMBANIS: The press reports at the time do not refer to the death of a second person, the murder of a second person.

MR BOSCH: There was only the one of a Mr Naidoo on the ANC farm in Lusaka that had been killed.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Kentane, do you know his present whereabouts?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Just for the sake of curiosity, could you tell us what does this man look like, how old is he?

MR BOSCH: He's a very thin person, he's very delicately built, finely built, he doesn't talk a lot, a very dark complexion and I think about 38/39 years old, if I remember correctly.

MS CAMBANIS: When did you last see him?

MR BOSCH: I think in 1993, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And do you know what was he doing then?

MR BOSCH: After I left Vlakplaas, I went to DCI and we took him along with us and he worked with Anton Nieuwoudt and then he disappeared off the scene.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you have any knowledge, has he been charged with any offence within South Africa?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were going to ask if he was also cancelled.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions?

MR HUGO: No questions.

MR ROSSOUW: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Bosch just tell me, was this amount of

R2 000 a standard fee that was paid for the elimination of any person?

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson, there was a list listing various amounts, like for instance R750 for getting an AK47. If you eliminated somebody you got R2 000 etcetera, handgrenade, so much money. So there was an official scale and we worked according to that scale.

ADV SIGODI: So if somebody were to be sent to go and eliminate somebody, would it be necessary for a handler to negotiate a fee with the person who was going to do the job or would that person simply know that he's going to be paid R2 000?

MR BOSCH: They knew, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it vary at all?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson. As far as weapons and the killing of people yes, there it would differ.

CHAIRPERSON: And a high profile person, like Chris Hani?

MR BOSCH: I think to eliminate Chris Hani ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose there would have been a high price on his head?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson, I suppose that would have been - because he was a high profile person, it was most probably R50 000 or R100 000 concerned, but those amounts were not listed on the scale.

CHAIRPERSON: How then would you pay him out if it was a higher amount than on the scale?

MR BOSCH: I would have gone to Col de Kock, he would have had to sort it out and then he would go to Brig Schoon and so it would work up the chain of command, to motivate it.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, this scale, was it a Vlakplaas scale?

MR BOSCH: No, it was a scale which was used throughout the entire South African Police for people who retrieved certain things.

MR MALAN: No, I'm referring specifically to elimination of people.

MR BOSCH: That was also on the other thing.

MR MALAN: Used it throughout the SAP?

MR BOSCH: Yes, at the Security Branch.

MR MALAN: There they had a list for what was paid for what?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

MR MALAN: And it included elimination?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

MR MALAN: And this list was accessible to all the members of the Security Police?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

MR MALAN: So each member of the Security Police knew that there were eliminations taking place?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

MR MALAN: How do you know that it was available at other places than Vlakplaas?

MR BOSCH: It was general knowledge wherever we went.

MR MALAN: And you mentioned Chris Hani, the high profile person, if he'd been eliminated it would have been worked according to a bonus system which had to be motivated?

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Because the fixed amount per head was R2 000 remuneration on the scale.

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson. Because I know - Col de Kock could perhaps help me out here, but that thing actually we got from the days of Koevoet in South West, quite a long time.

MR MALAN: Where was this scale of benefits, where was it kept?

MR BOSCH: I don't know.

MR MALAN: It's the first time that I've heard this evidence. Over the past four years this is the first time that I've heard of this.

MR BOSCH: I don't know where they kept it.

MR MALAN: I'm not saying it was never testified but I have never heard of it. Where was it published?

MR BOSCH: It wasn't published, we just knew it, everybody knew it.

MR MALAN: So you assume that everybody knew it but it was never published anywhere?

MR BOSCH: The Security Branch people knew it.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So the tax man was not part of the Security Police?

MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: And just finally, what kind of people would you choose to do this job? What criterion would you use to choose the people to do this kind of job?

MR BOSCH: I think that would depend on the urgency of the operation, that's why they took this person who had been given very good military training and he knew the area, he was an operator who could function on his own and that's why they took him. You couldn't just take anybody off the street and say, "You go and do this."

ADV SIGODI: So if you had to get somebody who was going to eliminate somebody, it was necessary to have that person trained.

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: It was standard practice.

MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long would the training last?

MR BOSCH: Chairperson, in my case what I would have done is I would have gone either to the Police College or to Special Forces and have spoken to those people and asked them about people who had already been trained, who were potential candidates for this operation, and then we would have recruited them and the I would have used them.

CHAIRPERSON: So they would already have been trained?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: But if you took somebody from the street or from, who wasn't trained, how long would the training take? Say in the use of ...

MR BOSCH: Training with intelligence work, probably six months.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bosch, I didn't ask Mr de Kock this, I forgot to do so, I think perhaps you might also be able to answer this question because you were also at Vlakplaas. In my legal career I always had the impression that the Security Police' targets were always, or almost always, members of MK because they constituted the threat to South Africa.

MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now and then a high profile person like Mrs September would be killed, am I correct?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand it from the evidence which I've heard already, the death of Mrs September, that type of killing was done to intimidate the ANC, to show them that they were not boss and members of MK were killed in the course of a war, that was the other side of the story.

MR BOSCH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was not the policy of the Defence Force or Security Police to kill ordinary ANC members who did not actually constitute a real threat to the Republic or the government. Am I correct?

MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct, I also understood it in that way, but most of the people - I don't want to say "most", I don't want to actually talk about something which I don't really know about, but most of the ANC members who were in the country at that stage, sources or informers were monitoring them, so they weren't really a threat. I think the incident concerning Mrs September for instance, they just wanted to show the ANC, "Look, we can get anybody anywhere."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now I'm talking about people who were members of the ANC, who for instance did community work in the ANC, or who helped to send messages to exiles outside the country or between the exiles and their family inside the country, or for instance to act as couriers for money for ordinary members of the ANC. There were many people who were members of the ANC, who went overseas, who were not actually members of MK. Do you agree?

MR BOSCH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were not targets, they were not seen as threats to the government.

MR BOSCH: Not a principal threat, but they still were members of the enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes no, that I accept, but the target of the government and specifically of the Security Police, where those people who constituted a specific threat, namely the ...(intervention)

MR BOSCH: The soldiers of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Tell me, would a veterinary surgeon had been a target simply because he was a vet and also and ANC member?

MR BOSCH: He would not have been a primary target, no.

CHAIRPERSON: You read a report which was shown to you by Mr de Kock and what was read there was that a certain Mr Naidoo had been killed.

MR BOSCH: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you, or can you say whether the Mr Naidoo referred to in the newspaper report, was the only Mr Naidoo who was an ANC member and who'd been killed by the South African Forces?

MR BOSCH: The only one that I was aware of, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any other questions?

MR ROSSOUW: Nothing further, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No other witnesses?

MR ROSSOUW: I don't have any witnesses further, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair. On behalf of Dr Naidoo, we just wish to confirm the evidence that she has previously given at the hearing of the TRC, which appears in the bundle and I've already referred to the pages where she indicates the name of the person who was killed together with her son in the circumstances. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, ...(indistinct - no microphone) a document that I've read relevant to another application, the name of Lenny Naidoo, I came across that name. Are you able to say if Mr Lenny Naidoo was the same person as Mr Sadam Naidoo?

MS CAMBANIS: I'm instructed that he's not the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is all the evidence that you wish to produce?

MS CAMBANIS: Yes. Sorry, just for - Mr Lenny Naidoo I'm informed was in fact killed in Swaziland, it was a different time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I accept that, but I just wanted to know if there were more than one Mr Naidoo that was killed in a similar manner.

Mr Steenkamp, do you have any witnesses or questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Chairperson, I have no evidence but the request of Ms Cambanis on behalf of the victims, I just want to place it on record what the latest information is regarding Mr Kentane. The latest information which I could obtain was that Mr Kentane, that he during the de Kock investigation in 1995, had been approached by the investigating team. He was found in Empangeni in Northern Natal. He made a statement which obviously has nothing to do with this specific incident. At that stage Mr Kentane was not attached to any security structure such as the Police or the Defence Force, according to my information, and shortly afterwards, Mr Kentane was taken back to Empangeni. The last information which I got was that he was somewhere in Northern Natal, working for a security company. I also talked to the investigating officers who worked with him during that time. Capt Homes was one of them. He attested the amnesty application of Mr Bosch and the information is that the information in the affidavit of Mr Kentane was not confirmed. So the latest information which I have is that Mr Kentane cannot be traced at this stage. He's also not attached to any official security structures, as far as we can determine.

It was confirmed that Mr Kentane was a member of the then Selous Scouts, the Defence Force, and that his personal history was also confirmed, that he shortly after the bush war in Rhodesia, came to South Africa where he was employed by the Security Police and it was confirmed also that he worked for the Security Police and DCI. That's the only information which we could get about him.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Steenkamp, you're saying there was a statement made to the investigating team by Mr Kentane and to quote your words "which obviously has nothing to do with this matter", what do you mean by that? What would the statement have been about?

ADV STEENKAMP: If I understand correctly, maybe I expressed myself badly, it was about the movement of vehicles used by Vlakplaas during that period. I think my colleague, Mr Hugo might be able to help me out. The statement was regarding vehicles used by Vlakplaas and they tried to find out - well, all the people who had worked at Vlakplaas, were approached to find out what actually had taken place at Vlakplaas in this period, during the investigation and it was in this respect that Mr Kentane was approached. So there was no statement taken from him about this specific incident.

MR MALAN: And regarding Operation Delta?

ADV STEENKAMP: Not at all.

MR MALAN: Does the movement of vehicles not include the vehicle made available to Mr Kentane by Vlakplaas for Operation Delta?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, it concerned sources or informers working at Vlakplaas and people who were paid by Vlakplaas, it didn't deal specifically with this incident.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That seems to be the end of the evidence. Mr Hugo? Everybody, have you got any argument?

MR HUGO IN ARGUMENT: Yes, just very brief, Mr Chairman.

The ...(indistinct) question obviously in this particular matter is that we find ourselves in the peculiar situation in the sense that, can amnesty be granted for the murder, for instance of Mr Naidoo and also Mr Mtunzi, where there is doubt as to whether they were in fact murdered on instructions of Mr de Kock?

CHAIRPERSON: Whether they were in fact murdered by the person who says he killed one of them?

MR HUGO: Yes. Mr Chairman, the problem is, if this Committee finds that they are not going to grant amnesty for this particular version, what are we going to do if amnesty is not granted and Mr Kentane is then traced and found, he makes a statement and he says "Well, I didn't apply for amnesty, I was led to believe that I might become a witness for the prosecution and in fact I'm now prepared to make an affidavit and what Mr de Kock has said in his amnesty application and what Mr Bosch has said, is in fact true, the murders were committed as they said, and this is my version." What is Mr de Kock and Mr Bosch's situation then?

I would submit that there's one approach and that is to say that on the probabilities or possibilities, there could have been these murders, they could have been committed and that the Committee is then enjoined to say "Well, there was a proper disclosure, all the other requirements have been met, we're prepared to grant amnesty on that basis." And if it's wrong, so be it, but at least it protects the two amnesty applicants that came here, that have made use of the provisions of the Act, as was envisaged. They have been invited by the legislature to come and make a full disclosure, which they've done, and if they're mistaken, at least they're protected in the sense that they have done their duty. They've also done their duty in the sense that at least they had information about the killing of a particular person or persons and that the family could at least come here and verify as to whether it's true or not.

I personally have certain reservations as to whether he was involved in this particular matter. The fact that he only claimed compensation for one person, worries me, but I would still argue that on the evidence before you and taking into consideration that the other requirements have been met, if the Committee so decides, that amnesty should be granted, just to protect these two applicants for the murder of Mr Naidoo and Mr Mtunzi.

And then obviously, Mr Chairman, the same problem arises with the murder of this unknown person in Botswana, where we also don't know whether that is in fact true. The other possibility, obviously is to just grant amnesty for conspiracy to commit these murders and to confine it to the Delta Operation. The problem with that is it will only, I would argue, protect these two applicants in as far as the conspiracy that took place here and they might still be extradited and tried in Lusaka and/or Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: That can happen in any event.

MR HUGO: That is also true, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't depend on whether we grant amnesty or not.

MR HUGO: That is indeed true, Mr Chairman.

Really those are the submissions that we want to make as far as the offences of murder are concerned.

We have already told you that we apply for the illegal possession of the firearms also connected with this particular operation, the Delta Operation. We also apply for the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition in respect of the Swaziland incident, Mr Chairman. And then obviously also the possession of the stolen goods. I refer here to Mr Peter Vales' vehicle and then all the offences and delicts that are covered by the facts of the evidence and then obviously also the issuing of the passports.

Mr Chairman, there's just one other aspect which I think we should take cognisance of, is the fact that both Mr de Kock and Mr Bosch acted on instructions from a very senior police officer, who was very explicit in his instruction that this particular operation should be aimed at the ANC in general and members of the ANC, and that's how they understood it and that's how they carried this particular operation.

Mr Chairman, unless there are any other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HUGO: Gen Joubert. Obviously there's no question of personal gain on behalf of Mr de Kock etcetera, etcetera. Those

are really the submissions that we want to make. I thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR ROSSOUW IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, I agree with my learned colleague, there's one aspect and I've considered this and the manner in which I intend to deal with this is to throw the application for amnesty over the board of the specific conspiracy and murders, if any, committed within the Operation Delta itself.

Mr Chairman, in my submission that would cover any victim that might be identified positively as flowing from an operation of, or a specific incident in Operation Delta. So that would cover the eventuality of Mr Kentane making a positive identification, should he come forward. That would be my first submission, Mr Chairman. But if I am wrong, then in the alternative I'm also applying for murder for the specific incidents that are mentioned here, Mr Chairman. But with that, I share the similar worries with Mr Hugo as to whether you can actually be satisfied, and that's the wording in the Act, that these were incidents committed within Operation Delta. I've got my doubts about that. So ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR ROSSOUW: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.

So the first ...(indistinct) that Mr Bosch would be applying for would be the general one, the conspiracy to commit murder within the borders of South Africa. The conspiracy was committed here. Then the murders of any unknown supporters or members of the ANC or PAC, flowing from Operation Delta.

Mr Chairman, I would submit that with that wording it would cover Mr Bosch and Mr de Kock under Section 20(2)(b), as employees of the State and they directed their actions against members or supporters of freedom fighting organisations. So Mr Chairman, I would submit that both applicants fall within the framework of the Act.

I further submit that this Committee can be satisfied that they've made a full disclosure as to all material facts within their knowledge, Mr Chairman. I further submit that this is clearly an incident where they acted on instructions, as Mr Hugo said, there was authorisation and Mr Bosch testified as to the procedure which followed the authorisation.

And then lastly, Mr Chairman, I would submit that this was an operation carried out with a political objective. Mr Chairman, similarly I share Mr Hugo's sentiments ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As far as the two applicants are concerned, it was carried out with a political objective, not Mr Kentane.

MR ROSSOUW: Not Mr Kentane. Mr Chairman, the point has been raised in many applications that the test really to be applied, if you go to the Norgaard Principles, is a subjective test. It's what the applicants believed they were doing, it's to determine whether they acted with political motivation or not, Mr Chairman. It's not an objective test. And on that basis I submit that the two applicants clearly subjectively, Mr Chairman, acted for a political objective.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Rossouw, just on that point, the problem we have had as the Amnesty Committee, also in relation to other applications where for instance, the ANC officials have taken responsibility for any orders which they sent out to the people, is that that would be tantamount to general amnesty. So how would you distinguish that case from your case?

CHAIRPERSON: In fact that case was ruled against the ANC by the Cape Division of the High Court. What you are asking us is in effect similar, a blanket-type amnesty because of the uncertainty that we are all faced with. The question is, how do we handle that in the face of that Cape Division decision?

MR ROSSOUW: Yes, Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the Act specifies - unfortunately I only have the Afrikaans text with me, but the Act states that one can apply for - Mr Chairman, it's Section 18 of the Act, which reads:

then the Section continues.

Now Mr Chairman, that Act says "any act, omission or offence committed." Now Mr Chairman, I won't even try to go into the arguments that Mr Visser has put before the Committee on numerous occasions, relating to the interpretation of these words, but the gist of it as I understood it, was that you need not specify the specific incident or offence that you are applying for.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's precisely what the effect of the judgment is. The ANC brought, or certain members, I think 37 of them, brought an application to the TRC, the effect of it is that between them they are taking full responsibilities as having given orders to their soldiers to do whatever they did and in the event of them having committed crimes, these 37 applicants now apply for amnesty in respect thereof. It was a total blanket because nobody could say a particular offence was committed on the orders of this lot. I'm not going to say what I think of the application or the judgment, the fact of the matter is that the Court, I think it was a full bench, said that that can't happen in terms of this Act, and their interpretation is that a specific crime must be - the effect of it is that when applying, you must apply for the amnesty in respect of a specific crime, and that gives us problems.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes Mr Chairman, I would submit that the problems can be resolved by identifying the offence by way of limiting it to any operation that flowed from incidents in, or actions of Operation Delta. That would be your qualifying criteria. Mr Chairman, that would be my submission. The point to raise or to support that submission is simply this, there might be an offence committed here under the Illegal Immigrants Act, that we don't know about, or we missed it at this stage. If you grant amnesty for murder and ammunition and everything, but if we weren't aware at this stage about the transgression of the Illegal Immigrants Act, for instance, then in twenty years time or whenever, the public Prosecutor can come and prosecute these applicants for that offence, but if it was an incident of all offences that flowed from Operation Delta, I would submit, then one can argue any offence identified or unidentified at this stage, will be covered.

CHAIRPERSON: Well my answer to you there is, I don't want to open a debate but maybe for future reference, is that it doesn't obviate the constraints we have in regard to that judgment from the Cape Division. Had we been able, or if we are able to make the following order, that amnesty is granted to the applicants in respect of the murder of Mr Naidoo, and all other offences incidental to the commission of that murder, then you'd be right, but you need to be able to do so in respect of the main offence. In this case it doesn't seem like we're able to. Now if we can't, then the incidental offences don't follow because you haven't got a main offence. The incidental offences facilitating the commission of the main offence.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's the problem in your argument.

MR ROSSOUW: I see that, Mr Chairman, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, we've heard you.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, I still submit that one need not specifically look at Mr Naidoo, to qualify the applications for amnesty, simply because if one has regard to the elements of the offence for murder, clearly in this instance, Mr Chairman, we've got all the elements to commit murder without the identification of the body at the end of the line.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR ROSSOUW: I agree, I'm sorry Mr Chairman. Yes, you're correct.

MR MALAN: May I just follow this up. The Chair has already referred to the problem of blanket amnesty and especially the reversal of the so-called ANC 37, and if we were to grant amnesty on the basis of your request, including the conspiracy and any murders flowing from the conspiracy, that would be open because there is no disclosure of any specific murder, because we can't make that link, but conspiracy in itself to commit murder, would be an offence, it's an act constituting an offence in terms of both 18 and 19, which one may argue qualifies for amnesty. But it would not entitle them to amnesty for specific murders committed were they charged, if they had any knowledge and any connection. And one may even argue that they may be prosecuted for the murder itself, but it's very unlikely that an authority, if entitled, would prosecute on a charge of murder if he's satisfied that the applicants had no knowledge of that specific murder having been committed. So if we come back to your original formulation, if you ask for - if anything is to be entertained, let me put it this way, I can't see it going beyond the act of a conspiracy to commit murder on a group of persons, as you have identified. Undisclosed, unknown, amongst a group of persons, through a specific project. But it cannot go beyond the conspiracy.

MR ROSSOUW: Not on the evidence that we have at this stage, Mr Chairman, I agree with that. Similarly of course, the application would be for any delicts committed that flows from the incident.

Unless there's anything specific that the Committee wishes me to address you on relating to the application of Mr Bosch.

Maybe just one aspect relating to the subjective test. Of course, Mr Chairman, the order that they received would play a vital role in this instance, and there's no question that they acted outside the scope of the order that they received. Thank you, that's all that I've got, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS IN ARGUMENT: ... except to comment, Chairperson, that I've been on the receiving end of the ANC 37 argument so many times I would have delighted to go on for one hour being on the other side of it, but I ask the Chair to abide by. Insofar as far it is - certainly we know who killed Mr Naidoo, it was not Mr Kentane. To that extent, neither applicants can receive amnesty for any act, omission, relating to the death of Mr Naidoo. Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: I've got no submission, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take time to deliberate this issue. We'll adjourn now till Monday morning 10 o'clock.

MR ROSSOUW: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I just interrupt at this stage. I know that there was another application of Mr Eugene Fourie on the roll today, and that application has been withdrawn, Mr Chairman. I don't know if you're aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: I was just asked by a colleague to ask the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: That was withdrawn.

MR ROSSOUW: It's withdrawn, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll adjourn.