--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start the proceedings. For the record, it is Monday, the 24th of July 2000. This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee, sitting at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The presiding Panel consists of myself, Denzil Potgieter, and with me on the Panel are Judge Motata and Advocate Sandi. We are starting off with the amnesty application this morning of Mr Phila Martin Dolo, the amnesty reference number is 3485/96. I'm going to ask the representatives to put themselves on record, we'll start on behalf of the applicant. Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. And then the Leader of Evidence.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Whilst we are with you, we have a note that there are two interested parties, Mr Norman Mitchley and Mr Craig Lampbrecht who are present.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson that is so and so far they don't intend to oppose the application, they will sit and listen to the evidence and will decide afterwards. No lawyer has been instructed on their behalf with their instructions, they will not require any lawyer. They will put questions if the need arises, themselves. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And if needs be you'll be of some assistance to them?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. You're otherwise satisfied that we are in a position to proceed with the matter? Good. Yes Mr Mbandazayo, anything that you wanted to put on record before we proceed to the evidence?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson, except that as I indicated in chambers that after Mr Dolo I would like to call General Fihla. Presently it seems as if we had some confusion about dates, he thought that it's 25, but anyway he's on the way now, he's leaving Pretoria, so he said he will meet us halfway, so by the time we've finished he will be here. Why I'm putting it on record, there's a possibility that if by the time we've finished, if we're finished before he comes I would like a short adjournment to check where he is, because he's not familiar even with the area where the hearing is, unless he got lost, but he said he will be here within thirty minutes. Thank you. Otherwise Chairperson, there's nothing I want to put on record. The applicant is ready to give evidence, he may be sworn in Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Mbandazayo, we've noted that and we've had the unfortunate experience this morning that quite a few people got lost on their way to this venue, so hopefully General Fihla's lot won't be the same.

Mr Dolo, will you please stand to take the oath. Are your full names Phila Martin Dolo?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the purposes of this hearing we are going to use the affidavit which starts from page 31 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Chairperson, the reason being that the affidavit at page 31, is the most comprehensive one. The one was done in '98 when the Amnesty Committee wanted to investigate, so it did not have the details, it was for purposes of investigation. So the second one was the most detailed one regarding the event. Thank you.

Mr Dolo, the affidavit which is front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR DOLO: I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Chairperson, I will read the affidavit for the purposes of the record and thereafter I will lead Mr Dolo on certain portions of the paragraphs.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

Thank you. Chairperson, as I indicated, after finishing reading the affidavit of Mr Dolo, I would like to take Mr Dolo through certain paragraphs of this affidavit.

Mr Dolo, I would like to go to paragraph 11 of your affidavit.

Can you, Mr Dolo, tell the Committee about Kenny and Bongani, do you know the real names of Kenny and Bongani and do you know where are they now?

MR DOLO: The time I went to the then PWV area, I was with these guys, Kenny and Bongani. To say that I know their names, I don't know their names, we know each other with Chimurenga names. I knew them as Kenny and Bongani and for now I don't know where are they currently, because after that I was apprehended and I was released in 1998 and up to now I have no whereabouts of them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dolo, am I correct to say that also this name, this Chimurenga name, Kenny, was also used by yourself in certain operations? Can you tell the Committee in which operations did you use the name.

MR DOLO: Before I went to the then PWV, I was operating around Free State, I was the Director of Operations for Free State region. At that time I was using this name of Kenny. After all there were two people in that area who was using this name, it was myself and someone else, there was someone else who was also using such a name.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it the procedure in APLA that you use various name, not one Chimurenga name?

MR DOLO: As we were operating underground, to many areas in the country not to be known by many people and also by the enemy of the then, it was advisable and as a guerrilla movement to use such names, Chimurenga names for security reasons.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now will I be correct that whenever you moved to a certain area of operations, you would change the names and the names given to somebody else to confuse the then regime?

MR DOLO: Not per se. I don't know in this case, sometimes we will be given names, that you go to this area, then your name will be this one. Like in this case of the former Director of Special Ops, this name of Billy. He told us that he will be called, when we liaise with him he will such a name as Billy, but other units will use another name to call him to when they're addressing to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you know now where the Director of Special Ops is, Sipho Bulelani Xuma?

MR DOLO: I'm not sure, I think he's around Transkei. The last time he said he's studying around in Transkei. I think he's still around there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if there's no questions on that paragraph I'll move on.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, if you'll be asking him questions on a different aspect, can I just ask him, these two people, Kenny and Bongani, did you say that you have not come across any person after you were released from prison in November 1988? You've not come across any person who says to you he did see one of these people somewhere?

MR DOLO: Pardon?

ADV SANDI: Have you come across any person who was able to say to you he had seen one of these people somewhere?

MR DOLO: Oh it was of interest to me after all when I was released, to look for these people as there was these hearings of Eikenhof. It will have helped me a lot after all if I was able to come across them, to try and talk with them and then if I appear now I stand with them here. I did manage to talk to a lot of people like to the former Director of Operations, Happy Lethlapa, he could not give me any detail about them. I tried many other people too, but up to no avail.

ADV SANDI: So at things are now, there's not even a rumour that one of these persons was seen somewhere?

MR DOLO: I have many things to do when I was released from prison. I was released in '98, late '98, I have to go home and perform some other traditional things and then I have to look for work too. Lucky enough, last year I was employed within the South African Air Force. I'm now with the Air Force, I'm busy with the Air Force. Like even now I was in the course, attending a course, I have to leave it in the middle of the course to come and attend here. So I've been a busy person for now. I didn't give much time, if I have to say it, to take this as a main priority, as I have to live on with my life.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

Now paragraph 12, you indicated that your contact person in Gauteng was Comrade Lawrence Mnqandela, General Mnqandela, can you tell the Committee about Mnqandela.

MR DOLO: Mnqandela was a well-known person amongst the ranks of the youth of South Africa, as he was, I believe, the Chairman of the ANZANYO for this area and I think also for nationally. Within the politics he was known too and within the labour sector he was also known as he was also within the Committee of Hotelika(?). There's one labour organisation named Hotelika. I know him even before I left the country, the time we were still busy with the ANZANYO. I know him just as a comrade and lucky enough the time I was deployed here I was told that he is the person to contact and I have to use him as my courier too.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

Am I correct to say that Mnqandela passed away in a car accident?

MR DOLO: Yes, I think he was on their way to attend a conference in Transkei, of the PAC, if I'm correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dolo, paragraph 13 of your affidavit, that you do not know the real names of Kenny, Bongani and Siha, even if you were given the real names you wouldn't be in a position to do that, it's only the members of the High Command of APLA, would I be correct to say that you were shown the names which were said to be belonging to Kenny, the real names of Kenny, which was known by the South African Police Services and they meant nothing to you, because you knew the operatives by their Chimurenga names?

MR DOLO: That's correct, provided if maybe they were in the position to furnish me with photos, I think that would have helped a lot as that ...(indistinct)

MR MBANDAZAYO: So if you were just furnished with names, it won't help unless it's accompanied by photographs?

MR DOLO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, if I can just come in again, just about Kenny and Bongani once more. At the time you were operating with Kenny and Bongani as members of APLA, did you have any idea as to which part of the country they were coming from?

MR DOLO: I will say they were more fluent to Xhosa/Zulu, so that will make them around Eastern Cape, KwaZulu Natal area.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson.

Chairperson, I'll move to paragraph 15 of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MBANDAZAYO:

Can you tell the Committee why the school bus was chosen as a target.

MR DOLO: If you can recall, it was around 1993, the time when there were these negotiations taking place in South Africa and as APLA and the PAC we have another view with regard to all that set-up, that of negotiations were just meant to sell out the people of this country, the AZANIAN people of this country, so we felt that as a Special Ops with Special Operations, with the politics involved and with the understanding of what was taking place in the country, if we can come up with operations that will have a turning point in the whole set-up, then hopefully things will be on our side.

And two, the question that - I think it has been stated after all already, the question of civilians, because I believe in that bus there will be civilians and kids too, a lot of kids. We didn't have any differentiation between, at that time, between soft targets and hard targets. So after considering the pros and cons that would be gained, I felt that really the gain is ...(indistinct)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dolo, I understand that the specific order was to attack a bus, but the bus was not attacked and instead another vehicle was attacked. Now would you say that what was done by the operatives was still in line with your command, or with your order?

MR DOLO: We were first an irregular army, a guerrilla force, meaning we didn't have orders that maybe would have to come from the President and then those orders will come up to the rank and file and would have to be executed as they are. As an irregular army we followed much with the question of initiative, that we are given absolute initiative and to take on our grounds when we operate and after the operation I didn't have any problem as a substitute to the original operation they were given, to carry it out, that this for time being is worth enough.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are telling the Committee is what was done by the operatives was in line with the command an order, or in line with the policies and principles of APLA and PAC? They did not deviate.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But the only thing is that they took an initiative after the first target failed.

MR DOLO: Pardon?

MR MBANDAZAYO: They took their own initiative after they failed to reach the target which was their focal point of attack.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee what steps, after they attack have taken place, what steps did you take in terms of reporting and who did you report to and how did you report?

MR DOLO: After the attack they came and briefed me, their Commander, I think it was Kenny, they briefed me and then after that I demanded a written report so that I can send it down to my seniors and I did have a written report and I have to do some changes to the written report, so that I can put it also, do it in my own writing and take whatever was written there and send it down to Transkei. I did report to - I sent two reports, one to the Director of Operations, and the other one to the Director of Special Ops.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are saying is that the reports that were sent in Transkei to the Director of Operations and the other one to the Director of Special Ops, were written in your own handwriting.

MR DOLO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Where were you when you received this report? Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR DOLO: I can't hear you properly.

ADV SANDI: Where were you when you received the report?

MR DOLO: The reports?

ADV SANDI: The first report from Kenny.

MR DOLO: I was around Soweto.

ADV SANDI: How soon was it after the attack had been carried out, was it on the same day?

MR DOLO: The same day that it came to me and we did have a shot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you by - how did you send the reports to Transkei, to the Director of Special Operations and the Director of Operations?

MR DOLO: I'm sure exactly. I used to go to Transkei at that time, but I also had my carrier who was Lawrence Mnqandela. I'm not sure exactly whether I did go there myself physically to send those reports or I use Lawrence Mnqandela.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But what you are trying to - can you tell the Committee, did you by any chance go to Transkei and personally meet the Director or Operations and the Director of Special Operations and discuss the operation?

MR DOLO: Yes, as I've said, I used to go to Transkei, I would be called to go down there, then on another occasion I had to go there for reports or just for any needs that I may have.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now it is - and also in your affidavit, do you confirm that one of the firearms that you used during the attack at a police vehicle in Diepkloof, was one which was used at the attack at Eikenhof, do you confirm that?

MR DOLO: Yes, I confirm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also, do you also confirm that Kenny who was commanding in the Eikenhof incident, was also part of your unit when you attacked the Diepkloof police vehicle?

MR DOLO: Yes, I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you also confirm that when you were arrested, the day of your arrested you were with Kenny, but he managed to escape.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also the AK47 was discovered during your arrest.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which was used also at Eikenhof.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have alluded in your ... that three ANC members were convicted of that incident and there was enough evidence in court to convict them, and also it is alleged that some of them confessed being the people who carried out that attack on Eikenhof, and now you are coming and telling the Committee that it's your unit that carried out the attack. What do you say?

MR DOLO: First of all, we have learnt that through torture, torture can extract a lot of confessions from people and that information might be used against people, but that spells one thing that, and as in this case, spelt one thing and ...(indistinct) one thing that such tortures, a long run, or such confessions that were started through torture, happened to be lies, as this has demonstrated in this case and that those guys, those three ANC guys were not involved in that Eikenhof accident and apparently were all released.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what you are telling the Committee is that the three ANC members were wrongly convicted for that incident.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Because they were never part of your unit.

MR DOLO: Yes, as you go through my submission, I have stated there that I have no knowledge of them, I've never met them before and they were not part of my unit and therefore they were not part of that operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, was there at any stage any co-operation between ANC and PAC cadres, like APLA and MK on the ground?

MR DOLO: I will say at the highest level whereby the MK at the time, had suspended the armed struggle and APLA was still continuing with it, I will say there was none, but within individuals, people who felt supportive towards what APLA was doing, we did have hearsay that around Transkei there were MK people who were supportive to the cause of APLA and I will take it, it was not just a verbal support, but to this operation and where I was operating, I have never come across ANC people who happened to be part of my unit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally Mr Dolo, at that time when you were operating in Gauteng, what would have been your response if there was an ANC person or cadre who wanted to be part of APLA, because maybe he was not happy with the - he was not happy because ANC has suspended the armed struggle?

MR DOLO: I will have welcomed such a thing, that would have increased our strength, our numbers and I will have informed my superiors, as at that time I was not busy with any trainings. I was not involved in training of recruits, I was dealing with that at the time I was still around ...(indistinct) and the person, I would have sent him down to Transkei for further scrutiny.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dolo, really finally, is there anything you want to tell the Committee, or want to add to your testimony regarding this incident, Eikenhof incident?

MR DOLO: It won't be about the Eikenhof incident, what I can say is that we were fighting a vile force condemned internationally and we were it as an ...(indistinct) and we were the embodiment of our people to their right to self-determination. We felt that the government of the day, through the TRC, ...(indistinct) salute for freedom fighters. It's ...(indistinct) as we still have a lot of our cadres who are still quarantined in prisons, who still have to enjoy their life inside bars and now it's already 2000. It is said that we are liberated in 1994, and it is six years now in a row and there are still freedom fighters who are still lavishing inside the prisons of South Africa. I have this plea to the people of this country for freedom fighters, that they pardon them as the alternative to this ...(indistinct) TRC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ... victims, some of them are sitting on the opposite side, what do you say to them?

MR DOLO: What I can say, it's a pity that in the course of the history, in the course of our days as we are living, that some of us lose our lives through many things and with the history of South Africa that we all understand as we all were brought and grew up in this country. I take it all, you know, what has happened in the past, as it was happening in the past, has led us to stand up here now and talk about those things, I will say it's a pity that they have lost their loved ones and we too have lost our loved ones. That's all I can say.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Chairperson, at this stage. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have a few questions to put to Mr Dolo.

Mr Dolo, you mentioned that the three operators that you used, Kenny Siha and Bongani, you didn't know who they were, how were they brought into your unit, or how did they join your unit?

MR DOLO: If I believed I said I went to the then PWV with Kenny and Bongani and Siha I met around here, and Lawrence. We met in Transkei and then we were joined together that day and we were told that we have to come here together.

MS MTANGA: In your other hearing in respect of Yeoville, the Yeoville application, actually you didn't apply for that, but two people who were also members of your other unit in Gauteng at that time, that is Matebula, and I've forgotten the second person, but in the Yeoville operation, according to the Court's information that is in the judgment, Kenny is mentioned there, the two members of that unit that were arrested and convicted, who applied for amnesty, couldn't they help identify who Kenny was, because he had participated in that operation as well?

MR DOLO: If I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying in that hearing in court, whereby the name Kenny was also used, you also say there were also other two people, that is Godfrey Matebula and Peter Mushundi, they were also mentioned there. I would take it Kenny was mentioned as a fourth person, if I include myself.

MS MTANGA: Yes, and my question is, did you try and ascertain from Matebula and Mushundi where Kenny is and where you could get hold of him?

MR DOLO: Oh well, I did after I was released out of prison. As we were approaching, as I have to adjust myself through this reconciliation, that I've even left with them, so I did try to talk to those guys, Godfrey Matebula, to try to get hold of those people, of Kenny and Siha and Bongani, so that if there is still anything left, we go and surrender it to the police and then we go forward with this reconciliation, but up to no avail, they say they don't know where they are.

MS MTANGA: Somewhere in your affidavit you mention that this General Mnqandela, at some point went to claim a vehicle that was taken by the police, what vehicle are you referring to?

MR DOLO: The time I was operating here, the Director of Operations, together with the Director of Special Ops, did send me a car, a legal car from Transkei, a Honda Ballade, and then at that time I didn't have a licence and I was operating illegally, so-called illegally, and then I took the car and then I gave it to Lawrence Mnqandela to register it under his name.

MS MTANGA: So this vehicle had nothing to do with Eikenhof?

MR DOLO: Pardon?

MS MTANGA: Would I be correct to say that this Honda Ballade had nothing to do with Eikenhof?

MR DOLO: With Eikenhof?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

MR DOLO: Yes, it was not used there.

MS MTANGA: Okay. You also say that the driver of the vehicle in the Eikenhof incident was recruited by your unit members, does this mean he was a PAC member? Was he part of APLA, technically, or was he just a PAC member who was asked to help?

MR DOLO: At that time more operatives of APLA are people who are coming from the ranks of the PAC, who have a background of the PAC, and more we'll prefer to recruit such people to join the ranks of APLA, as they have the background of the politics, of what we are fighting for. And the same applies with such a person, as I learned it later, yes he was a member of the PAC.

MS MTANGA: Was it also possible for them to obtain any person who had a vehicle at that time and request that person to use their vehicle for the operation, even if the person was not a PAC member? Or could they have forced someone to do that?

MR DOLO: For that operation the person, the vehicle owner, I don't think was a PAC member, I don't have any background about it, but when I get it from the media and from the unit itself, they have highjacked a car and then they used this fourth person to drive the car as they were not in the position to drive.

MS MTANGA: There's been some concern about the fact that you applied in 1996 and you did not include Eikenhof incident as one of the incidents that you're applying for, why did you only apply for Eikenhof in 1997?

MR DOLO: Oh it was still open, maybe at that time I was still having doubts to talk about it, but I did apply later on. There's no problem of that.

MS MTANGA: What doubts were you having?

MR DOLO: Pardon?

MS MTANGA: What doubts were you having?

MR DOLO: That I was still withholding information, that I won't talk about it at that time. I felt so. I don't see any problem with regard to such.

MS MTANGA: You also mentioned in your evidence and also in your affidavit that the reconnaissance was done and it was finalised and you were briefed about it, can you tell the Committee how long before the incident was this reconnaissance done and how many times was it done?

MR DOLO: I'm sure it would be a matter of days, I'm not sure about the many operations I appeared here in the TRC, for how many operations and all those operations involved reconnaissance too, but I will say it was a matter of a day or two. And I think I didn't say it here for record too, for the last time for the operation, the last reconnaissance, I did take part to it, whereby we used the Honda Ballade, to see for myself this bus. I did take part to it.

MS MTANGA: So you went to the spot where this took place?

MR DOLO: Yes, just to see for myself, to satisfy myself.

MS MTANGA: Another point of concern is that you gave an order, these operatives went and did a reconnaissance and they came back to you and they told you they'll be attacking a school bus, and then you took that and you consulted your Director of Special Operations, who was Sipho Xuma at that time, and he approved, and that's the order you gave. So what happened, what was the situation with the attack on the vehicle which you never sought approval for and you technically didn't give orders for?

MR DOLO: I informed them after the incident that instead of the bus we did attack this vehicle and then I furnished them with information with regard to such. That's then that the question of reports, written reports have to be sent down to them with regard to such, and lucky for us they did approve of what we did, they didn't have any problem to it.

MS MTANGA: When you say "them", who are you referring to?

MR DOLO: Pardon?

MS MTANGA: When you say "them", who are you referring to?

MR DOLO: When I say?

MS MTANGA: You say you informed them that the school bus was not attacked, instead a vehicle, another vehicle was attacked, so who did you inform?

MR DOLO: I informed the Director of Ops, together with ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Sipho Xuma?

MR DOLO: ... with the Director of Special Ops, yes.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be given a minute to consult with Mr Mitchley and Mrs Lampbrecht?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will carry on and put some questions to the applicant on behalf of Mr Mitchley, and Mr Lampbrecht would like to put his questions himself, once I have finished, if the Committee will allow him. And Mr Mitchley is indicating that he would like that too. Can I just consult with Mr Mitchley again, he's just whispered to me that he wants to put his questions himself.

Chairperson, I wish to end my questions and then if the Committee will allow Mr Mitchley and Mr Lampbrecht to put their questions, as Mr Mitchley has elected to do it himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMPBRECHT: I just want to ask you one question, why did you take it out on children that were innocent and knew nothing about politics?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just for the record, the question is from Mr Lampbrecht. Yes.

MR LAMPBRECHT: I just want to ask you one question, why did you take it out on children that were innocent and knew nothing about politics at the time?

MR DOLO: Can you repeat your question as I was busy setting this thing.

MR LAMPBRECHT: I just want to know, why did you take it out on children that were innocent and knew nothing about politics at the time?

MR DOLO: I stated here that at that time this country, or other parties were involved in negotiations, we felt as the APLA and the PAC, that those negotiations were there just to sell out the people of the country and we needed to do something as operatives, as APLA operatives, that will be a turning point and such a turning point a favour on our side, meaning there will be no negotiations. So we sat down and understanding the politics involved and our operative, ...(indistinct) of the APLA, as it has no differentiations between soft targets and hard targets, so we felt it, it is worth the ...(indistinct) to attack such people. We have no problem in doing such.

MR LAMPBRECHT: Another thing I want to ask you, just now you had said in your, part of the question, you say it's not the main priority in your life that you've done a criminal offence, you've killed three people and injured two.

MR DOLO: The criminals that were condemned internationally, in my understanding were the government, the previous government and its supporters, that is maybe yourself and this other person too, were the criminals who were condemned internationally by United Nations, as what they were doing. Pressing ...(indistinct) apartheid is crime against humanity, so those were the criminals, not myself. I was not a criminal, I was a freedom fighter, fighting for this country.

MR LAMPBRECHT: But we're part of your country as well ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: And if you understand the history of South Africa you'll accept what I'm saying, that I'm not a criminal standing here. Instead, the criminals were yourself.

MR LAMPBRECHT: Why do you say we're criminals? What were we doing at the time? We were only 14 and 15 years of age, we knew nothing about the politics at the time.

MR DOLO: The criminals as they were declared internationally, were the previous government of the day led by the National Party and its supporters. You should have asked then your parents then what was happening, not to ask me here now if you're not satisfied with what I'm telling you.

MR LAMPBRECHT: I'm not satisfied, I'll never be satisfied. But to complete that, but we're also part of South Africa, why take it out on us, why can't you take it out on somebody else? I mean to me you're a coward, because you took it out on children at the time, I was only 14/15 years of age, I didn't even know how to use a gun at the time.

MR DOLO: Oh well, in a war situation you attack your enemy when it is weak, where it is weak.

MR LAMPBRECHT: But we aren't enemy, we were nothing at the time.

MR DOLO: At that time there was a tense situation, a war between two nations, an oppressed nation, that is an African oppressed nation against the invaders, the European settlers. So it was a war between such two nations.

MR LAMPBRECHT: That's all I have to say.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, that ends the questions of Mr Lampbrecht.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lampbrecht. Mr Mitchley?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MITCHLEY: It's rather strange that you had to go and change the report of this particular Eikenhof incident and do it in your own handwriting. My questions here is, do you guys as individuals, operators, get recognised for your achievements in terms of the targets that had been set for you?

MR DOLO: I don't get you when you say "get recognised."

MR MITCHLEY: Okay. You are set a task, you are a freedom fighter, you're told to attack a bus, but you didn't attack the bus, you guys attacked an innocent car, but we of course in your book were the enemies, did you get recognition for every attack or every achievement of hits that you were sent out to go and do?

MR DOLO: I will take that as something that happens to any grouping of people who are involved in such activities, where any kind of activities ...(indistinct), when you succeed in doing such you get recognised.

MR MITCHLEY: Right, so in this case of this incident, the Eikenhof incident which you have authorised the attack on the bus, you had actually nothing to do with the attack on our vehicle, yet you have claimed responsibility so that you can have the recognition. You changed Kenny's, his report, and you wrote it in your own handwriting and sent it to your Director of Operations, so you weren't there, you don't know what happened, you didn't even know it happened, you heard it through the media, yet you are claiming responsibility. It's just rather - I'm just making the comment, it makes no difference today, it's very convenient that a lot of the witnesses are dead, you don't know the operators, your colleagues that were with you, supposedly, in this. I make the comment, because it's quite interesting.

MR DOLO: And to respond in your comment too, I knew the people I was operating with, I didn't know their names and where they came from, I knew them as the comrades and I trusted what they reported to me and that was supported by the media reports. So what I reported was not something that I didn't know about and it as well known in the country too.

MR MITCHLEY: Given the past situation and your approach and your attitude towards the enemies, how do you feel today?

MR DOLO: Can you say that again?

MR MITCHLEY: Okay. Given the past situation, what you were doing, your freedom fighting, that's changed now, what is your feeling today?

MR DOLO: Firstly, I don't feel proud that for what I've did I have to come here and talk about it, because I would take it that this is an injustice to us, as we were the freedom fighters, as it is claimed that we liberated this country, so there was no need for us to come here and be given such a treatment that we are given, and that of first to go to prison and enjoy life in prison and then for us to get out of prison, we have to come here and talk about it. And secondly, I'm proud for what I've done in the past, I have no problem with it, I've no apology for what I've did. That's all.

MR MITCHLEY: Then why are you asking for amnesty?

MR DOLO: I didn't ask for pardon, I'm here to state my story.

MR MITCHLEY: No further comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mitchley. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, no questions from me Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you want Mr Dolo to be excused?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I would like Mr Dolo to be excused. I'm not sure, because I understand Gen Fihla he was said to ...(indistinct) Braamfontein, he was just getting his way here. If we can have a short adjournment, as also in the meantime I would like to consult for the next application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps we should just stand down and allow you an opportunity to ascertain where Gen Fihla is at this stage and when he is likely to be present here, and then you can give us an indication in chambers, as to that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Dolo, thank you, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mbandazayo, has your witness arrived?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Do you want him sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, he can be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fihla, could you please stand, can you just give your full names for the record.

RAYMOND MBULELO FIHLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Mbandazayo?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson.

General Fihla, am I correct to say you are presently a General in the South African National Defence Force?

GEN FIHLA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And attached to the Military Intelligence of the South African Defence Force.

GEN FIHLA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct to say, before you became a member of the National Defence Force, you were a member of APLA and a member of the High Command of APLA? Can you tell the Committee which rank you were occupying, which position in APLA were you?

GEN FIHLA: In APLA I was Director of Military Intelligence and according to our rank structure I was holding the rank of a Brigadier in APLA, and then I integrated in 1994 into the South African National Defence Force.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And after you integration you became a General in the South African National Defence Force.

GEN FIHLA: I fist became a Colonel, because we were told that our rank structures were not an equivalent of the Defence Force structures, but then I was later promoted again into the rank of a Brigadier-General.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now General Fihla, today Phila Dolo was applying for amnesty with regard to Eikenhof incident and this incident happened in 1993, and everybody knows that members of the ANC were convicted of this incident, can you tell the Committee, do you know anything about this incident, Eikenhof incident?

GEN FIHLA: I do know about it because I received an official report in my capacity as a Director in Military Intelligence in APLA, and this report was submitted to me officially and the whole operation itself was endorsed by the APLA High Command, so I got an official report and we took responsibility as well for the operation itself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell General, at what stage did you become aware of the incident, was it in 1993 or after the, immediately after the incident, or is it a year or two years thereafter?

GEN FIHLA: I knew about this incident immediately after it took place, but I knew about the events that led to it, before the incident took place itself. That is was in 1993. As I'm saying that the report was officially conveyed to me through our structures internally, so I knew immediately after the incident itself, that the people who actually carried it out were our members.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, as APLA, what was your reaction after the arrest of the ANC members regarding the incident?

GEN FIHLA: I think the first reaction was that of joy, joy in the sense that it provided the security to our members who had actually carried out the operation. So to us the more the operation was not linked to APLA, the better for the security of our men, so we were happy with that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Phila Dolo testified that the target was a school bus, but at the end of the day they did not attack the school bus, but they attacked another car. Would you say that was still in line with APLA and PAC policy?

GEN FIHLA: Definitely it was in line with the APLA policy, because the basic policy of APLA was that we did not separate between what used to be called hard and soft targets, to us we had only one target. So whether it was the school bus, whether it was a bakkie, to us it meant the same thing. So in terms of APLA policy, that fell within that scope.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now if arguments are advanced that these were just innocent schoolchildren who were in the bus who were attacked, who knew nothing about the South African policies and all those things, knew nothing about politics of the day?

GEN FIHLA: The problem we had with APLA was that all of us would recall that the situation was that on the black community's side, schoolchildren were dying, all the people were dying and we sat in the High Command to discuss whether we needed to separate in terms of targets, I remember the APLA Commander, Sabelo Pama, used a Xhosa proverb that "A thorn can only be taken out by another thorn", meaning that if people kill your children, then you need to do likewise, so that the same feeling that we are feeling must be felt on the other side. So that was the basic position of APLA, and therefore the question of whether some people were innocent or not, it didn't come into our minds. It is unfortunate that the South African conflict took a racial connotation, but it was the reality of the situation, so when we looked at the situation ourselves, we were looking at it in terms of what it was to the black people and therefore we also inflicted the same pain that the black people were feeling as well. So whether the people were innocent or not, it didn't fall within our agenda in the High Command.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I will come back again to this point. Do you know that the three members of ANC who were convicted, confessed that they participated in the event, the Eikenhof incident and they were subsequently convicted because of their confession and other evidence, some witnesses who said they were there, and now Phila Dolo and yourself are confirming that it was an APLA operation which has nothing to do with them, what do you say to that?

GEN FIHLA: I'm not too sure about the circumstances under which they confessed, if they did confess, but the fact of the matter is that the police in the final analysis did get information that the people who carried out the operation were APLA members, because when they confiscated some documents in the Transkei, part of those documents did give a diary of incidents and operations that were carried out by APLA, and one of such incidents was the Eikenhof incident, which the police themselves must have found in those documents. Now if they had been honest enough themselves, they would have maybe revisited their case, but they didn't do that. So whether they confessed or not, I'm not too sure about that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Phila Dolo testified that the authority to attack the school bus was received from Sipho Bulelani Xuma, who he said at that time he was Deputy-Director of Operations and also Director of Special Operations and that also there is also some evidence, that is, some people pointed out in the photographs that Sipho Xuma was present in the operation.

GEN FIHLA: I can't remember whether Sipho Xuma was present in the operation, but all I know for a fact is that he knew about the operation, in his capacity as Deputy-Director of Operations. Now it was to his discretion to decide whether he participated himself personally in any operation or he gave the responsibility to his subordinates. So I cannot recall whether he was there in himself or not, but to my, if my memory serves me well, I don't think he was there himself, but I think he knew about the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way, was it possible for Phila Dolo to give an order to Sipho Xuma to go and execute the operation?

GEN FIHLA: The reverse would be the case, subordinates would never give orders to the superiors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that's all, I think I've covered what I wanted General Fihla to cover with regard to this aspect of this incident. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I do have one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: General Fihla, you've mentioned that when the ANC 3 cadres were arrested for this incident, your organisation was happy because it meant that your cadres who carried out this operation were secured, they couldn't be arrested for it, what was the attitude towards the application by Mr Dolo?

CHAIRPERSON: For what?

MS MTANGA: For amnesty in respect of this incident. What was the attitude of the APLA High Command?

GEN FIHLA: The APLA attitude? It took us a long time to finally decide, to decide whether we accept the operation or not and eventually one important motivating factor for us to accept the operation was that also our consciences were haunting us, that we knew that there were people, comrades who were sitting in prison who had not - who were innocent, and we took a long time to deliberate and debate this issue and finally we accepted that we needed to take open responsibility of the operation. This is basically what led to Phila finally applying for the application. I also did assist with the legal representatives of the ANC members who were arrested, I went to meet them in Johannesburg to give evidence, so that they made sure that they succeeded in releasing the members. That was basically the main driving force.

MS MTANGA: There a concern from the families who are affected by the Eikenhof incident, who lost their loved ones, and the main concern is that we have a person like Phila Dolo applying for amnesty and as far as the families are concerned, all he's saying is pure hearsay and they still do not know what really happened and who the people are that carried out this operation. What do you say to this? Would you be in a position to assist them identify the operatives, because they feel what's being said by you and Phila, is just hearsay, not direct from the people who were carrying out this operation.

GEN FIHLA: I think it will be difficult to convince people who suffered and felt pain in the course of the conflict in the RSA. I appreciate the concern which they have, and the best person who could assist them in pointing out the other people who participated in the operation, is Phila himself, because I may not have the details myself, exactly who were the people who were with him at that time, but I fully agree with their concern, it is normal to me.

MS MTANGA: When a decision was taken that Phila must apply for this operation to rescue the ANC 3 who were in prison at that time, was there anything done by APLA High Command, to try and locate other applicants to apply? The real operators in this incident to apply.

GEN FIHLA: The issue of application for amnesty, we left it to the individuals. What we did ourselves was just to highlight the significance of amnesty and we also indicated it to our members, the implications of not applying for amnesty, but we were not in a position to compel people to apply for amnesty. Now the problem with APLA is that the issue of amnesty, together with the issue of integration and the issue of negotiations prior to 1994, those were the matters that caused serious divisions, starting from the PAC and APLA itself, and eventually we had to be convincing ourselves firstly, with participating in the talks, we had to convince the leadership that it was necessary to participate. After the elections it became difficult for us to convince APLA members to integrate into the National Defence Force, and finally we took a decision that that would be voluntary, those who would not want to integrate, it was their choice. Equally with the application for amnesty, we also left it into the choice of the members.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Fihla. I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Lampbrecht, have you got any questions you want to ask? Mr Mitchley? Panel?

ADV SANDI: Just one question from me, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

General Fihla, just to get more clarity on this, is it the position here that the persons who are alleged to have been involved in the attack on this particular vehicle, you didn't know them personally?

GEN FIHLA: Not that I don't know them personally, I think maybe the - what I can indicate maybe is this, what we used to do, the people who carried out an operation would not be revealed to other people, except the actual Commander himself, all I would receive myself was a report that this operation has been carried out by us and the Commander of this operation would be this person. But that would be diarised by the Commanders themselves.

The reason why we did that, it was mostly for security reasons, it was on the need-to-know basis. Now if I was not involved in a particular operation, there would be no need for me to know the details of that operation, for security reasons. And we deliberately did that to make sure that in case anything happens, because I myself would come into the country, in case I'm arrested, I would not be in a position to reveal what I'm not supposed to. So that was basically the reason.

ADV SANDI: Let us take them one by one. The information we have, or rather the evidence that has been led is to the effect that the people who carried out this attack were Kenny, do you know that person?

GEN FIHLA: Who?

ADV SANDI: Kenny.

GEN FIHLA: Kenny who? Kenny Fihla?

ADV SANDI: No, that is all that was given about him, there's no surname, it just says Kenny.

GEN FIHLA: There were about three Kennys that I knew, so I would not be sure which one that one is, and one of them, Kenny who it was here, because two of them, Kenny was not their real names and only had that name. So if I could get maybe the surname I could know ...(inaudible). They are Kenny Madoda ..., that one, I know that one, he's my younger brother, and that was not his real name, it was his combat name.

ADV SANDI: Where is he now?

GEN FIHLA: He's a member of the National Defence Force.

ADV SANDI: Do you know Bongani?

GEN FIHLA: Which Bongani, because there are many Bonganis as well, unless he's here. I may not be sure which Bongani, if I can get the full names I could be in a position to ...

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible) Bongani. If there were more than one Bongani, would you know which particular Bongani was involved in this operation?

GEN FIHLA: I cannot be sure, but the immediate Bongani who comes to mind can be one who was, that was his real name, but the name he was using was Keith, so I'm not too sure whether it's that one.

ADV SANDI: Would you know Siha, do you know which Siha was involved in this?

GEN FIHLA: I don't know Siha, I don't know that name.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

JUDGE MOTATA: General, you mentioned that you received an official report about this Eikenhof incident, what I want to find out from you is that if you get a report about an incident, are you also in that report having names of the operatives who carried out the mission?

GEN FIHLA: Basically that would not happen, the only time maybe names would be revealed is when the Commander of APLA himself wanted to be told who carried out the operation, but under normal circumstances, the way we operated, we never used to get the names. The reason was that we were a bit worried about our means of communication. Like in my case, I was based in Zimbabwe for instance, now if I would receive a report in Zimbabwe, it means that the report will come to me either through the radio or through the telephone, now if the names of the people are revealed through the telephone, then that would be a serious breach of security, so we wouldn't allow that to happen. So the only time possibly we'd get the reports in terms of names, was when maybe we were sitting in the High Command meeting and if the Commander himself wanted to know the full details.

JUDGE MOTATA: Now this was also sanctioned by the High Command, if I understood you well, was this revealed at that High Command?

GEN FIHLA: The operation itself, prior the time it took place, was not necessarily sanctioned by APLA itself, by the High Command, but after the incident itself, the reported did come that this operation was carried out by our members and the High Command accepted that operation. But we didn't get the report because this operation was not planned beforehand, "that we were going to attack this bakkie in Eikenhof, does the High Command approve or not?" It was not the case. So it just happened and then the High Command just got a report about it.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, General.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much. Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. General Fihla, thank you, you're excused.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that's the evidence for the applicant, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, is there any other evidence that will be presented?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I intend to lead no evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lampbrecht, did you intend to give any evidence? Thank you. Mr Mitchley? Thank you.

Mr Mbandazayo, are you in a position to address us?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes, Chairperson.

Chairperson, only I'll touch on a few issues, I won't go to the requirements of the Act, Chairperson, in detail, but suffice to say to the Committee that it's my submission that the applicant has fulfilled all the requirements of the Act and that the applicant belonged to a bona fide organisation and acted on behalf of that organisation, which is APLA in this instance and he had made full disclosure of his involvement in this incident and further, that he has not acted for any personal gain in this instance.

Chairperson, I know that there have been some doubts as to whether this has been an operation which belonged to APLA, or not, but I want to point out a certain few things. The reports about the incident were received by the police in 1995, when they raided Umtata and Lesotho, and the reports were written in 1993, and at that time Phila Dolo had not applied for any amnesty for this incident. So Chairperson, even if one would say it's just a fabrication, why would he make a report about an incident even before he knew whether he would have a chance to apply for amnesty or not? So it's clear that the report itself have nothing to do with the question of application for amnesty, it was a routine thing to do, for him to report to his Commanders about the operation. And the police discovered that in 1995 and they decided to keep them secret.

And furthermore, Chairperson, it's not in dispute that the firearm, one of the firearms that were confiscated when the applicant was arrested the same year, in 1993, at the end of May 1993, was linked ballistically directly to Eikenhof. And all this the police kept it secret, they never divulged this whole thing. So it's clear, even then at that time, nobody knew about that there will be any amnesty process at that time. So Chairperson, there's no way that one can say that this whole thing, the firearm, the reports were a fabrication.

So it's therefore my submission that it's clear that the incident, the Eikenhof incident was done by APLA and was not done by ANC members, and he had nothing to do with the ANC members. As, Chairperson, it's clear from the application of the ANC members, when they applied for amnesty they left it blank because they could not justify it, because they were not involved, they said "we were never involved in this incident". Now if they were involved in the incident, they had an opportunity before the amnesty, to write there that "the reason why we did this was because of a, b, c, e", but unfortunately they couldn't do that because they had nothing to do with the incident.

So Chairperson, I know the other contentious issue is the question of the people who were involved in the incident itself, who were directly involved in the incident. Though ...(intervention)

JUDGE MOTATA: Before you come with that, Mr Mbandazayo, you say the police subsequently became aware when the documents belonging to the PAC were impounded in 1995, and they kept quiet about this, are you suggesting that they kept quiet because the three ANC members were already sentenced, that is in the end of June 1994? Would that have caused an embarrassment to, probably the system, that they had incarcerated wrong people?

GEN FIHLA: Chairperson, I wanted to put it clear that that's the reason, simply the reason, because they knew that wrong people were convicted.

And Chairperson, it is clear the reason why the reports - it was difficult even to get the reports, they have to be stolen, Chairperson, in order to get the reports. If I may put it, they have to be stolen from the offices of the police and also from the Attorney-General, because they didn't want anybody to know about this thing, because wrong people have been convicted. So it's a battle. And even what has been put by Phila Dolo in his affidavit, Chairperson, it's difficult to get the reports, they didn't want to release the documents, so that the people were actually involved, could be identified, because they want to leave it open, to create that doubt that these people, Phila Dolo, is lying about that APLA was involved in this incident, the three ANC people who were convicted were the real people who were convicted. They wanted to leave that doubt, because, Chairperson, the reason being that whenever we have written to them saying "Can you give us the names of so and so, who are the real names of these people", it was difficult for them. And of course after consultation with APLA High Command, they said the problem is that those names are coded, unless they get somebody from APLA who will tell them what the actual name is, it's difficult for them. You know, they may be able to decode other names, to say it was so and so, but it's difficult to, it will be very difficult to all of them. So we are sitting with that problem, the police don't want to release the documents, because the documents will help and clarify the whole issue about this incident, because they have convicted the wrong people who were convicted.

JUDGE MOTATA: The denial goes further, that when newspaper reports carried that the PAC is claiming that they carried out the Eikenhof operation, then it was somewhat said that this is a collusion, that the PAC people colluded with ANC that the three should get out because amnesty was now before the Amnesty Committee. That there is nothing of that nature, are you saying that it's a perpetuation of a lie?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I don't even - I've tried to figure it in my mind how would that happen. Chairperson, fortunately I was involved when this thing came out, when Phila Dolo was applying for amnesty I actually met him. Also to myself it was a shock, because I knew people who were convicted of this incident and I couldn't believe it, and he referred to members of the High Command and who confirmed it. And to say that somebody who's - at Port Elizabeth, he came here for operations and after he finished his operations, he was arrested ...(indistinct) when he was staying he was serving his sentence in Port Elizabeth, to say he colluded, ANC and PAC decided to collude in this aspect, and everybody knows the relationship between ANC and PAC, even about the new dispensation. I'm unable to figure out how would that happen, that collusion, except to agree with you, Chairperson, that it's still the perpetration of trying to hide - in fact, Chairperson, if I can put it bluntly, people were embarrassed about the whole thing when this came out. Everybody was embarrassed when Phila, the applicant, came out that Phila applied for amnesty, they were hoping that nobody will come out. The PAC would up come out, APLA would not come up with this incident, it will be left as it is and those innocent people would rot in jail, but when it came up, everybody who was involved in the case was embarrassed. So everybody has to be involved in a face-saving situation, and now the stories have to come up and say look, there was a collusion between ANC and PAC.

If one followed this incident after it came out in the papers, I doubt one can say there was a collusion, because there was an exchange of words, you know some ANC people were saying look, the PAC owes them an apology about this thing and all such things and there was an exchange of rude words that "look, we don't owe you any apology about this". So definitely, if one can say there was a collusion, I doubt where one would get that. It's clear that it was just as General Fihla put it, that it was working on their conscience about this thing, that those people were innocent and Phila decided that he has to come out clean and tell the whole world that "look, those people are innocent".

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, just to round up that particular issue that you have been talking about now, what eventually happened in regard to the three people that were convicted and sentenced for this particular incident, and what was the eventual attitude of the prosecuting authority and the police, in regard to that particular side of the matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Chairperson, when this thing came out, luckily I was involved because I was assisting the legal team of the three, the attitude of the police was always - I remember, Chairperson, I was in Bloemfontein in August 1998, I think it was, I don't know whether the rank is Major or Colonel Hugo who actually confiscated the documents, met me in Bloemfontein and specifically told me and asked me why are we pursuing this matter because the APLA guys will never be tried and convicted for this offence, the only thing that we'll do is just to embarrass the South African Police Services and the justice system as a whole, is whether what we are doing, we are trying to do that, "let's leave this thing as it is". And he told me that at that time, Chairperson, as you would remember that there was going to be a hearing in Kibler Park, where this matter was going to be heard, and he told me in no uncertain terms that this matter is not going to be heard, "we'll make sure that this matter does not come up for hearing". And Chairperson, as you know that this matter did not proceed at Kibler Park. So it was clear to me that the police and everybody involved were trying their best not to have this matter heard and luckily when the whole - maybe the hope was that the courts which this matter ended up in, the Supreme Court of Appeal, would not rule in favour of the convicted three, and luckily the ruling was in their favour and they knew that they have lost. They had no reason now to go and oppose that this matter can no longer come to the hearing, when the Supreme Court ruled that this matter must be retried and Phila Dolo, Sipho Xuma and all others who were mentioned, should be called as witnesses. So it was clear that they will no longer now try and sweep this matter away.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the retrial that was ordered?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I understand, when - the return, that was ordered that at the end of the day it had to come before the same Judge who heard the matter and he recused himself and eventually the Director of Prosecutions in Gauteng decided no longer to proceed with the matter, prosecute the matter again.

CHAIRPERSON: So the entire case was simply just dropped like that against those three persons that were convicted and sentenced?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, eventually the case was dropped against the three people were convicted and sentenced for this case.

JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Mbandazayo, you mentioned that this Hugo who was either a Colonel or a Major, I did not follow well, why was he saying that the Amnesty Committee would never hear the application of Phila Dolo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, he said that they are doing their best. At that time I did not know what was happening and I understand that, after that I learnt that Mr D'Oliviera, who was the then Attorney-General of Gauteng, went to see the Chairman of the Amnesty Committee, Judge Mall, about this matter. I was not aware at the time, I was in the hearing, I did not know. I subsequently learnt that that's what he meant and that's why the matter was removed from the roll. So that's why he was ...(indistinct - no microphone). I did not take him seriously because I didn't know anything at that stage and I felt that maybe he's just threatening, he wants us to, Phila to withdraw the matter. That's what they were impressing upon me, that Phila Dolo should withdraw this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you for the clarification. You can proceed with your further submissions, if you have any.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you come again, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I just thank you for the clarification, but I said that if you have further submissions, you can proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may, just to add that I'm just receiving - not about this matter which you wanted clarity about, what happened eventually to the case, that at the end of the day I understand the prosecuting authorities made their own investigations too. Adv Ackerman and others were not convinced of the guilt of the three, that is the ones who were convicted and sentenced to death, that is the three ANC members. So after they made their own investigation, they were not convinced of their guilt also, so that's why the case was dropped eventually. Thank you, Chair.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbandazayo, is it not part of the information here that during the time of the prosecution in court, a lot of information which was favourable to the accused', was withheld from the Defence, it was never disclosed?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I didn't want to go to the matter of the three Eikenhof, it's clear Chairperson, I've got many records of this, I've been following ... luckily, the legal representative of the ANC 3 kept me informed. Even the records up to the Supreme Court of Appeal, I've got all the records about the whole thing and the outcome of the whole matter. It's clear that also it came out in the Supreme Court of Appeal, and the Judges were not happy, that vital evidence was withheld from the Defence about this, which was favourable to the accused at that time. That for instance, certain people - that the three were not pointed out by certain witnesses, they pointed out certain people who happened to be linked to APLA, those people who were pointed out. But the whole information was withheld, everything was withheld from the Defence.

So it leaves one with one question, whether at that particular point in time, during the prosecution of the trial, of the Eikenhof 3, was it not that the prosecuting authority and the police aware that these were the wrong people? So it leaves one with one answer, that at the time of the trial they were aware. As the affidavit of Phila Dolo indicates, he was arrested on the 28th of May, if not 30th of May 1993, and Landman, Major Landman, I think he was a Major then, who arrested him, who was involved in the Eikenhof matter also, told him, that's in the affidavit, told him that, "I know that you are the people who were involved in the Eikenhof incident, but I'm not going to go to Transkei and look after those people." So it's clear, during the trial, even before the start of the trial the police were aware that these were the wrong people.

ADV SANDI: I further - sorry, Chair, I further notice from the papers contained in the bundles that some of the witnesses who appeared in court and testified against the so-called Eikenhof 3, they subsequently said that they were simply saying what they had been told to say in court.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, let me be open about this matter. There is a Wesselsbron incident which, in 1998, I'm referring to ...(indistinct) in Bloemfontein, which I was involved in when Colonel Hugo, Major Hugo came to me, and it was involving a supermarket and the alibi of the three was that they were in Wesselsbron and on the papers it's clear that when the owner of the Wesselsbron - Major Landman went to Wesselsbron, where the applicants, where the three Eikenhof were at the time of the incident which happened here at Eikenhof, the three members of the ANC, which was their alibi, and there was - they met somebody who, the witness who was there and whose shack was destroyed and was burnt and Landman told this guy that the three were involved in that matter and if he wants them to be prosecuted, he has to give evidence that they were not at Wesselsbron during the incident of this. And there was a braai there and also the owner of the supermarket was involved in that matter at Wesselsbron. So there's quite a lot involved in this matter. The groundwork was done by the police to close all the loopholes, so that they can make their case against the three because they were aware that they were prosecuting wrong people. So there's quite a lot involved in this matter, there was a lot involved in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the actual relevance of all of that, for our purposes, is that it might very well be then, listening to what you had said to us in this regard, it might very well be that some of the answers which the victims are seeking, because that's one of the issues that they raised with your client and with your witness, they want to know who was involved, the identity of the perpetrators. So it might very well be that some of that information could have been available at a very early stage in the investigation and that that sort of information could have been made available to the victims way before the stage that we have reached now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's clear, Chairperson, that the information is there, but it's with the police. The information is there, the whole information with the victims, which they want, is there with the police, but they don't want to release that information.

You know Chairperson, if I may refer, there was an incident which one of the APLA was applying, Lichtenburg incident near Bophuthatswana, where we were involved in one application you know, where the Committee decided that at the end of the day you find out that the applicant was the victim, where every document was destroyed, there was nothing regarding that incident. Only to find that the reason why they destroyed the whole evidence, the police, you couldn't get even the police docket regarding that incident, was because the police were the perpetrators and the applicants were the victims and innocent people were shot by the police and they did not want that to come out.

And the reason why I'm quoting that is because even in this case it's clear that the only reason why they don't want to release that information, they don't want to release those documents, is because it's going to embarrass them because it was alleged that the three who were convicted made a confession that they were involved in this incident and now, if now an evidence comes out after people have admitted that "we were involved and we're the people who did that thing", that they did not do it. Now the question will be, what is the position with the confessions? Whether somebody can rely on the confessions at the end of the day.

So at the end of the day it is a serious indictment in our judicial system, hence everybody is so, if I may use the word I know, so sticky about the whole thing. When this came out, nobody wanted anything, everybody was touchy, that no, no, no, the right people were convicted. Nobody wanted to touch it. So it's a serious indictment in our judicial system, the whole judicial system, that at the end of the day those innocent people have to stay the whole six years in jail, having done nothing. And in order now to save their face, they have to withhold every information which is there, to the detriment of the victims. And the victims are here, they want solutions to their, who did this to them, and we cannot provide any, and yet the police are sitting with that information.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Are there submissions on the merits of the application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, finally - I won't go much now, finally my submission is that Mr Dolo has met all the requirements of the Act, and that he should be granted amnesty as applied for. Unless the Committee would like me to address on any other specific point regarding this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, any submissions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submission to make, except to say that the families of Mr Mitchley and Mr Lampbrecht would like to leave this matter in your hands and they'll be bound by your decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga, we noted that.

Mr Lampbrecht and Mr Mitchley, do you confirm what Ms Mtanga has submitted to us? Yes, thank you.

Mr Mbandazayo, have you got anything further you want to add?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that concludes the formal part of the application. This is a matter, as is apparent from the discussion that had occurred here, that had long history and that involves a number of issues. We would like in the circumstances, to consider the application and to consider the submissions that were made to us, and take time to decide the application. So under those circumstances, the decision in the matter will be reserved and we will notify all of the interested parties as soon as the decision in the matter is available.

We take the opportunity to thank you, Mr Lampbrecht and Mr Mitchley, for having taken the trouble to come and to participate in the hearing. It is, in our view, important that the hearings should be open and accessible to interested parties, particularly those people who are the victims of the incidents for which amnesty is being applied for. So we appreciate your presence and your participation.

We could just point out that of course, our duty is one that is prescribed by the law, in the sense that we must judge the application that is placed before us, against a set of requirements that is written into the law. Where the application complies with the requirements that are spelt out in the law, we are left with no discretion but to grant amnesty under those circumstances. To the converse, where the application that is placed before us, does not comply with the requirements of the law, again we are left with no discretion, we have to refuse the application. And that is the exercise that we would be doing. We would like to take some time to reconsider everything that was placed before us and to then judge the application against those requirements which are set out in the law. We will endeavour to conclude that exercise as quickly as circumstances permit. Unfortunately the Committee is under, and has been always, under tremendous time constraints, but even so, we appreciate the fact that there are important considerations that apply to these matters and we do our best to conclude them and finalise them as soon as circumstances permit, which is what we intend to do in this case as well. So in the circumstances, the decision is reserved.

Ms Mtanga, I assume that we would best take the adjournment at this stage and will await you to indicate to us when the next matter is ready to be heard.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I will do so. Can you perhaps indicate what time should we reconvene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is past lunch-time, will you give us an indication around 2 o'clock what the position is. Let me put it this way, we would like to start in the region of 2 o'clock. We've got two further matters on the roll for today, which we would do our very best to conclude, so if you can give us an indication around 2 o'clock. We will certainly be ready, but you indicate to us whether everybody else is in a position to proceed and we will then reconvene.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was going to request, because I know I'm involved, Chairperson, that if we put it exactly, at the latest at half past two, because these two incidents we are going to hear, I haven't consulted with the applicants as compared to others, I've been consulting with others since 1998, so this matter is new. I've just received the bundles on Friday, so I want to have some time and I think it won't be long, even the hearing for them. If I am given just enough time, we'll be able to shorten matters, we'll be able to accommodate the two applicants today and finalise them.

CHAIRPERSON: Will it assist you if we reconvene at two thirty?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will then take the luncheon adjournment and we'll reconvene at two thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter on the roll is the application of Pitso George Makume, amnesty reference AM0163/96. The Panel is constituted as has been indicated on the record earlier. The appearances are the same, for the applicant is Mr Mbandazayo, the Leader of Evidence is Ms Mtanga and then I'm going to ask Mr van Rensburg to put himself on record for the victims.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My name is Koos van Rensburg, I'm acting on behalf of seven victims in the Makume matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr van Rensburg. Yes Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. May the applicant be sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Makume, won't you please stand to take the oath. Are your full names Pitso George Makume?

PITSO GEORGE MAKUME: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the purposes of this hearing I will use the information which starts from page 17 to page 20.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Makume, is it correct that you were born on the 19th February 1973, at Sasolburg?

MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far have you gone at school?

MR MAKUME: I completed my standard 10.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you complete your standard 10?

MR MAKUME: While I was in prison.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now before you went to prison, how far did you go at school?

MR MAKUME: Only standard 8.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Makume is correct that you were a member of the South African Defence Force?

MR MAKUME: Yes, it's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the South African Defence Force?

MR MAKUME: In 1992.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And when did you leave the South African Defence Force?

MR MAKUME: In January 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Makume, is it correct that you are a member of PAC?

MR MAKUME: Yes, it is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

MR MAKUME: I joined the PAC in 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who recruited you into PAC?

MR MAKUME: It's Mr Nape Kumane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where is Mr Kumane presently?

MR MAKUME: I'm not sure, but I was made to understand that he's somewhere in the Northern Province, where he originates from.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, am I correct to say that some of the incidents that you are applying amnesty for, were whilst you were still a member of the ANC?

MR MAKUME: Yes, it's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the ANC?

MR MAKUME: I should think as early as 1991, but before I was the supporter of SANCO, which was then dominated by the ANC, that's how I found myself supporting the ANC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you leave the ANC?

MR MAKUME: If not end of '91, I think it's early '92, yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Makume, can we start with the - at page 17, Chairperson, what was the first incident in which you were involved in? Can we start with the one which you were involved in. Which one was the first one?

MR MAKUME: I can't exactly, but the one I remember is the one I was directly and physically involved, it is the one when we were targeting the butcher in the Zamdela township.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now that incident, you were still a member of the ANC, am I correct?

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that incident, about the butcher in Zamdela township, what happened, who planned the whole thing, who came up with the idea and what was the reason for you to attack that butcher.

MR MAKUME: Well to start with I will say, normally every Monday afternoon the entire residence met in the community hall, where we were discussing a mechanism as to how can we find the site for this informal settlement, then after every meeting the youth league of the ANC then meet around the very same hall and discuss the issues now involving the burning of the cops' houses, everyone who served under the then government, including the same butcher.

But now I would like to say, the reason why they decided on targeting the butcher is that they had the information that the owner of the butcher was from the opposition party, the former liberation by then, that is AZAPO. So what was taking place was a power struggle amongst these youth organisations.

I think for the fact that they saw a van owned by Mr Mahlatsi, he's the owner of the butcher, around the people who were busy giving the site or the stands for those who were looking for them, then they then decided after that meeting, on Monday after the meeting, that today we are going to attack his butchery, Mr Mahlatsi I mean to say.

So like any other youth by then, we all followed those leaders of ours and attacked the butcher. We harassed the staff there, then we chased them out of the butcher. They destroyed almost everything inside, even penetrated and pushed the very same van out of the store and then - I was carrying a butcher knife by then, and then I stabbed the petrol tank, so that it can spread the petrol out, as to make it possible for the fire. So we burnt the van and then we ran away for the police because they were already on their way by then.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have indicated to the Committee about the power struggle, are you in a position to tell the Committee who are the people who decided that Mr Mahlatsi belonged to the opposite camp and he has to be attacked? Are you in a position to tell the Committee who those people were?

MR MAKUME: Yes, I am.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes?

MR MAKUME: I can mention people such as Pajani Mguni, he was one of the ...(indistinct) leaders of the Youth League, as much as Sebobo Makume. He's now serving in Sasolburg Council. So they're the ones who said this person deserved this, a treatment of this nature. So to them it is like Mr Mahlatsi was destabilising the whole set-up of winning our side for our people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that I'm getting you that the reason why Mr Mahlatsi was attacked is because he was believed to be a member of AZAPO?

MR MAKUME: Yes, my leaders believed in that, so I was just following them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So because there was a power struggle between AZAPO youth and the ANC youth, so then he was attacked?

MR MAKUME: I believe so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it according to you as you indicated, that every Monday you will hold meetings, was it the policy of the Youth League that everybody who was opposed to the Youth League of the ANC at that time, was to be attacked or what? What was the position?

MR MAKUME: Well like I said that there was the supporter of the SANCO, dominated by the ANC Youth League, I think the researches that I made afterwards was very negative towards the decision made the said leaders. That is why at the ultimate point I decided not to follow them anymore, but to join the PAC, because for me it doesn't make any sense if we are going to fight each other as a former liberation movement in the township instead of facing the enemy.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Chairperson, I'll move to the next incident if the Committee has no questions on this one.

Now Mr Makume, was it the only incident whilst you were still an ANC member or supporter of SANCO?

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's move now to the next incident, the first incident whilst you were a member of the PAC. Can you tell, was it - did it involve the stealing of a firearm in the depot?

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it the first incident?

MR MAKUME: Yes, it was.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that incident, what happened, how did you come up with that idea, or who came up with that idea and how many were you.

MR MAKUME: In the late '91, Mr Tebogo, one of the SANCO leaders encouraged the youth that we should join the then South African Defence Force, during the CODESA negotiations in the country, so that we can come back with the necessary information if it comes to a push and so that the attacks could be possible for the masses. So I went to the Army with the same understanding, but my unfortunate is that I was not matured enough maybe to hide or to keep it secret that I'm here as a time-bomb in the South African Defence Force. So my superiors detected it in advance that I'm seen by some people in the township, I don't know how.

Then what really happened is that they ...(indistinct) again, because I was the only guy from the Vaal Triangle, in the Northern Cape, and then for that reason they only sent me to detention barracks because "ek was die hardegat". So when I was in the detention barracks, that is where I got even time to read about APLA material, as much as the PAC itself. So when I went out of detention barracks I was welcomed back to the unit that I served in, that is 97 Ammunition Depot, based in De Aar, and I started now stealing ammunition and hiding them somewhere so that, where it will be possible for me to get them out of the unit. And then the only objective was to further the aims and objectives of APLA, of which it was during the ...(indistinct) operation, if I'm not mistaken.

ADV SANDI: During the what?

MR MAKUME: The Great Storm operation.

ADV SANDI: What storm, Crate Storm?

MR MAKUME: Great Storm operation, yes.

MR MAKUME: How do you spell that?

MR MAKUME: G-r-e-a-t.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct that as a result you were dismissed from the South African Defence Force?

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And now what did you do after your dismissal from the South African Defence Force?

MR MAKUME: Well after a few weeks, if not a month, I went back using the same uniform, camouflage and everything, and I got in the very, inside the very Army unit and then I went straight to the same place where I used to hide the ammunition. I found ammunition, I carried them to another point where I knew exactly that I'm going to get some firearms.

So I reached a point and found one of our members, he was asleep, if I may phrase it in that way, because he didn't even realised that he was under a fire. I was carrying a knife, as to protect myself during that attack, but unfortunately he didn't wake. I ...(indistinct) that R4 assault rifle, then I left.

So I succeeded in the whole attack. I struggled with transport until I reached Zamdela. That was the first firearm I won and then I then organised the youth and recruited them in attacking even more police stations and farmers, mainly white farmers.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee, how many arms did you get there? Was it only an R4 rifle or ammunition? How many did you get from that depot?

MR MAKUME: It was only that R4, because the place that I thought that I will win even more was locked and it was so well secured, so I targeted somebody who was on patrol.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now after the ammunition deport incident, what other incident were you involved in?

MR MAKUME: After recruiting a youth, our next, my next operation I was directly as a leader by then, it was the one based in Kragbron. Kragbron is a suburb around Sasolburg, so there was a dog unit which was even forced to be closed down after that attack where we won a number of firearms, including ammunition.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many firearms, and how did you attack it, did you fire at them, was there anybody injured or killed in the process? How did you go about winning these firearms or taking these guns?

MR MAKUME: That was the first and the last one during that time. Then we went back and I even reported the operation to my then leader, Mr Kumane, that no, the mission is successful. He did not instruct us as such, but he only appreciated that well done guys, it's good for the PAC if the youth is getting involved in the operations of this nature, more especially.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now was there any other unit again which went to Kragbron? Or members of your unit?

MR MAKUME: I'm not sure, but while I was in jail there was a rumour that there has been a white kombi from Heilbron in the Free State which was there, for what purpose I'm not sure, but I cannot witness that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can we move then to the other incident, Mr Cronje's incident.

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that.

MR MAKUME: Mr Cronje's incident, yes it was the last op, I mean attack ...(end of side A of tape). We were in - we were running the shortage the transport, now we were looking for transport also and more arms. So we then - I then decided to attack Mr Cronje, because I grew up in his farm and then as a result I even knew that he's got a number of these rifles because he used to shoot during the night. So my only understanding is that Mr Cronje has a number or automatic rifles. So we then launched the attack against Mr Cronje and then we won rifles. We used his car when we go back to Sasolburg, but the car was confiscated by the cops at the very same time, then we ran away.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what happened to Mr Cronje when you arrived at his farm? How many were you when you went there?

MR MAKUME: It was myself, Kyhithla Hani(?) and Meketsi Tchabedi, as one of my trainees. Then we arrived at round about 9 o'clock in the morning, Sunday morning, then we found his domestic worker and asked where is Mr Cronje. She was really scared and then she nearly fell down the way she was scared, but we tried to cool her down, then finally she showed us where Mr Cronje is together with his visitors.

So for the fact that we were already there we then decided to attack them. It happened that we popped in the house while he was sitting with visitors watching the TV, and then we declared it as an attack. They surrendered and then we locked them inside the toilet. There were so many of them.

Then we took Mr Cronje to places where we think the arms might be, then he showed us the arms. We took arms, I'm not sure about the number but there were more than five, these rifles. Then afterwards - we even won some petty cash together with those arms in the safe and then we took his Toyota Venture and then he drove it by himself, then we left.

ADV SANDI: How much was this?

MR MAKUME: Pardon, Your Honour?

ADV SANDI: The money, how much was it? You said you got some petty cash.

MR MAKUME: Money was, if not five, it was R550, but it was so many loose count.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you then tell the Committee about the other incident, the burning of the prison and the ...(indistinct)

JUDGE MOTATA: Before he gets to that, Mr Mbandazayo, I don't know if this is an appropriate time to raise this, he said after attacking the Berlina coal mine, it's when the Cronjes were attacked, did I hear you correctly?

MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE MOTATA: Tell us about the Berlina coal mine attack.

MR MAKUME: I had an information from a certain guy from ...(indistinct) that there's a security office in Berlina coal mine based in Sasolburg, where we can find ourselves even more firearms. So time went on, I decided that this is the turn now for Berlina coal mine. Then we set the date and we agreed upon it with Meketsi Tchabedi and Bogo Molawa.

So one day/night we attacked the same security office. We found a security guard who claimed that he really don't know where keys are for the rest of the firearms and then at the very same time he was carrying none of those firearms, he was just a mere security guard in that guard office or guard room, but he told us that his senior officer will arrive, might arrive any time because it was too late, it was midnight. That is when we searched the whole place, we did not find any of those firearms and then we waited till such time that the senior officer arrived.

So the senior officer had then to arrive. He did not realise that there are people inside the same office, he just popped in, then after then we closed the door, then I pointed him with the firearm, the R4 I was carrying. I'm sorry, Your Honour, it was not the R4, it was the Z88 that - no, it was the pistol that we won in Kragbron dog unit. And then I instructed Meketsi Tchabedi to search this senior officer. That is where we confiscated the Z88 pistol from the same senior officer.

So we did ask him about keys and so on, but unfortunately the mine workers detected that there's something happening, taking place in the office, they could realise it through the windows. So I realised that should we waste even more time here, these people might phone the cops and then we might get easily arrested.

So we then left together with this senior officer. Their emotions were very high, they wanted to take him to the township, but now they failed to answer me for what good reason, what are you going to do with him. So we took him - he took us half a way to the township from the mine, then I release him, I personally release him. It was in winter, if I'm not mistaken, then I took his jacket. So we only took the pistol together with his jacket and then I released him, then he went back to the mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to his car, was he driving his car when he took you halfway?

MR MAKUME: No, no, we were just running, four of us, because it is something that 500 metres from that coal mine to the township. It's not so far.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now can you tell us what happened in prison, the burning of the prison.

MR MAKUME: Well during the election period, the first one in 1994, the then National Party Government denied the inmates using the rights of voting and then as a leader of the branch, because I established a branch, a PAC branch in prison there, we then met and decided to follow or to support our fellow inmates in Port Elizabeth. 21 of them died in the same incident. They burnt the cell and they got burnt also there, 21 of them. Then the following day we said, it was on the 18th if not the 21st of - just early '94, I'm not quite sure about the date now, so we did the same thing, we burnt the property. We did not lose any of us. The only thing that happened is the discrepancies that occurred among us as to, "you influence us on doing this, now we got injured", because when the prison warders came, they assaulted some of us. So those are the same people who pointed fingers upon one and so on.

So the case went to the Court and the Court dismissed it due to the fact that they already assaulted us, so there's no way we can get punished for that state, for that damage in that State property.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct to say that the only incident in which you were convicted of was the one raid, ammunition depot?

MR MAKUME: Pardon?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that you were only convicted for the raid at the ammunition depot where you stole the firearm, the R4? Were you convicted and sentenced for that incident? Which incident were you convicted and sentenced for?

MR MAKUME: I think you are not right. The incident which led me to prison is the one of Mr Cronje.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. You were convicted for that incident and sentenced to eight years imprisonment?

MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you have been subsequently released.

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say you were released in April?

MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that the other incident in which you are applying for amnesty, you were never tried or convicted or sentenced for that?

MR MAKUME: Yes, I voluntarily confessed them after hearing about the existence as much as the importance of the TRC, but mainly the Amnesty Committee.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So the whole - with the exception of the Cronje incident, the other you came with the information voluntarily?

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Not because you were charged or you were once investigated about it?

MR MAKUME: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that is all at this stage. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van Rensburg, have you got any questions?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Indeed, Mr Chairman. I would like to ask for a short postponement or just a recess to be able to consult with my client just before I proceed to cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll stand down briefly.

PITSO GEORGE MAKUME: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van Rensburg?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Makume, it's my instructions that Mr Mahlatsi was never a member of AZAPO. You formally testified that it was decided to attach his butchery because he was a member of AZAPO and that is why he was attacked, but he told me that he was never a member of AZAPO and that he was in fact a member of the ANC. He also says that one of the leaders of the ANC Youth League, a person named Basie - do you know this person?

MR MAKUME: Can you call the name again.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Basie. Did you know a certain ANC Youth League leader that was called Basie, in Zamdela?

MR MAKUME: Yes, I know Basie Mguni, he's a brother to Pajani Mguni, if I'm not mistaken.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was he also one of the leaders that gave instruction that Mr Mahlatsi's butchery should be attacked?

MR MAKUME: No, I'm not sure, I did not see.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You see Mr Makume, what I want to establish is, according to Mr Mahlatsi, he says that he was never a member of AZAPO and you stated that the reason for him being attacked was because he was a member of AZAPO, which he denies and he says in fact he was a member of the ANC at that stage. And he also says that often members of the ANC Youth League came to him for help and he assisted them with donations and bail money as well as transport at some stage, and he says that there could have been no misunderstanding as to a member of which party he was, because he was a member of the ANC and he supported them and also the Youth League, by these things that I've just mentioned, and still he was attacked and the reason was given that he was attacked because he was being a member of AZAPO, which he says was never the case.

MR MAKUME: Well I wouldn't deny the fact as such, Your Honour, but that is what I've been told. So on the same breath I would like to say, what I detected at the ultimate point is that we have been misled by the same leadership of the ANC. So that is the information that we got after that meeting, which stimulated our moral that we should attack the butcher, because the owner of the butcher was the member of the opposition party. So by then I did not have that much say on whatever level, the only thing I did is to follow the people and then took that part in the way I explained. So I cannot deny the fact that he was the member, but I did not carry any of that knowledge.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So you did not know that he was a member of the ANC?

MR MAKUME: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you never among the people that went to him for help?

MR MAKUME: No, I'm never one of them. Normally help such as transport and money, for whatever reason, it's initiated by the leadership, so I was never a part of the leadership.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You also mentioned that you often had a problem with transport, but still Mr Mahlatsi's van was taken out of the butchery or out of the premises and it was burnt after that, why was it burnt?

MR MAKUME: I never said I once had a problem with the transport, but the only thing that I said is that if you're involving money as much as transport, was the capacity of the leadership, so the leadership was only accountable for those initiatives. So the reason why I took part in the burning of the van, is the very one I already explained, that people from that organisation deserved to be, deserved the treatment of that kind, which I felt it was really unfair, but most importantly I realised that after the whole attack. That is why I did not stay longer in the ANC.

So like I mentioned a power struggle, it is clear that those guys were power mongers and then in a situation of that nature you cannot tell the people at the grass level the truth, you always tell them another side of the story, so that they can do whatever you like and to do, as leader.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And is it because of this incident that you left the ANC and joined the PAC?

MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How money was taken from Mr Mahlatsi's butchery at that incident?

MR MAKUME: That I cannot tell, but I firmly believe that there is a money, because when we entered the store there is a number of youth which rushed to the counter and then opened it. What happened afterwards I was not a part of it, but you - and the part of those who penetrated to that van and then they push it out of the store and burn it, I cannot tell the ...(indistinct).

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. If I can just come back to the Berlina incident. Just tell me exactly, did you think that there was a - who told you that there was a security office where there would be arms you could get hold of?

MR MAKUME: Well I'm not sure about the guy's names but he was well known as Bra Oupa from Matatie(?), but to my knowledge each and every mine has got the security with arms. My experience has confirmed it while I was working in a mine. I once worked in one of the mines in Westonaria, that's what I know. I mean it's common. So I only asked Bra Oupa whether, "Do you have the same office with the same arms?" He said yes and then I only asked the place and how to reach the place.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did he tell you where the place was and where the office was?

MR MAKUME: Yes, he told me, but it seemed to me that we attacked the wrong office, because that was not the main gate, then we thought that was the main gate but it was a near gate, it was a near entrance to the hostels. So we should have attacked the main gate other side of the mine, so we did not reach that point. So that is why I think we won only one pistol and then we left.

MR VAN RENSBURG: The security person that you mentioned whose jacket you took and also whose pistol you took, he also tells me that it is policy at that specific mine that there aren't any armed guards at the mine and that they all - there are guards, security guards, but they are all unarmed. He was the only carrying a firearm because he was the head of the security and he came to see, to check on the guards during the night, and that there isn't such an office with rifles whatsoever, there just isn't such a place because the policy of the mine is that the guards are unarmed. They're not armed with rifles, anyhow.

MR MAKUME: The only information I have got by then is that if we can stress out point we might win yourself a key to those which will access us to those arms. Whether we will get the key, to whom, I did not know till such time the very security guard confessed that no, if we can wait, because he was afraid that might assault or injure him, he said, "No, you can only wait guys, then the senior officer might arrive at any time." That is when he arrived. So during his arrival the only thing that we asked him is the key, then he denied that he knows about keys, then we search him. That is when we won the pistol from him.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm asking this, it is my instructions that there is not a place where any arms are being kept at that specific mine. Is it not true that you only took a chance just to see, attack any of the security officers in the area of the mine and hope to find any firearms there, and that there was not such a person or any information that you got of a specific office, because there is not such a place in existence?

MR MAKUME: So it's clear that we got wrong information, but to my knowledge each and every mine or big companies, factories in Sasolburg in particular, you'll find every factory with its own security, but now that they have put this electric fence in place, there are no more securities, security personnel. So by then there was, there was, there was security personnel by then. That is why I knew that they are with arms.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you know personally, from your own personal knowledge that they did have arms?

MR MAKUME: Yes, I even know that the arms should be in the office, but unfortunately I did not know which side. So I thought that was the right office, so it was the wrong one.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Am I correct in saying that the only rifle or firearm that you got at this incident, was the one that you took off Mr Pieterse, who was the security person at that stage, the one that you took off him personally when he came, the same one that you asked for the key, was that the only firearm that you got hold of at that incident?

MR MAKUME: In that incident, yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what did you do with this firearm?

MR MAKUME: After we win the firearm normally I reported it back to the branch leader, who is Mr Kumane, and then he did not want to keep it by then because we had a number of operations to launch, but at the ultimate point I handed it over to Kumane, after everything - I mean, after the last attack of Mr Cronje.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. Going back to Mr Cronje's incident, you mentioned that Mr Cronje and some of his visitors were in the house on the Sunday, is it not true that there was only one visitor and the rest of the people was his family with him in the house?

MR MAKUME: No, I grew up in that farm, I know the rest of the family. I cannot exactly tell how many visitors were there but it was more than one.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And is it also not true that one of the people that was in the room was a six year old boy of Mr Cronje, and that he was - there was a rifle held to his head?

MR MAKUME: Can you repeat the statement again please.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm asking, is it not true as well that there was also one of the other persons that was in the room with Mr Cronje, was his six year old son, he was six years old at that stage, and that there was a rifle held to his head?

MR MAKUME: Rifle on his head?

MR VAN RENSBURG: To the son's, to the six year old boy's head.

MR MAKUME: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is that not true?

MR MAKUME: No, that's not true, but I remember a young boy was around.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You said there were five rifles confiscated from Mr Cronje.

MR MAKUME: Five what?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Five rifles.

MR MAKUME: Five rifles, possible more. There was plenty of them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what did you do to Mr Cronje after you took the rifles?

MR MAKUME: Well we pushed him into the car and he asked where are we taking him, then I said personally that he's taking us halfway to Kroonstad. I did not want to tell exactly where we're coming from, the township. Then we left. But he drove the car personally, then we were just about to approach the township, still he was to be maybe killed or burnt possibly, but every time I felt shame for these people I release them along the way. But I can imagine what could have happened to them, including the very guy from Berlina, if I did not release them. So the guys I was operating with every time I asked that we take these white guys together till the township. So killing, I mean burning was not the policy of the PAC, burning the body as such, but you can imagine what could have happened to them, because once they are in the township you cannot stop people from harassing them. So I just feel like releasing them every time along the way.

That is exactly what happened to Mr Cronje. We just left him along the way and we left with his car. But the intention was not his car as such, we only used the car just to reach the two points in as quick as possible as we can. So that is why we left the car in the soccer sports, so that it can easily be confiscated by the police. And they got it the same day, the same time and same place that we left it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. And lastly, I'd just like to put to you that it is the instructions of Mr Cronje that during this incident he says that you personally took the firearm and you held it against the six year old boy's head and that there could have been no gain politically whatsoever for you doing that because there was not a threat whatsoever from the boy and that they co-operated in every way that you asked them. That is the final statement I'd just like to put to you, what's your reaction to this?

MR MAKUME: Your Honour, that is an untruth statement, it's for the first time I hear of that. He didn't even raise it during the court hearing where I was sentenced up to eight years. It's for the first time I hear it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Makume, I don't want to get into details about that, but I beg to differ from you on that point, it was raised during the trial. But I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I have a few questions, Chairperson.

Mr Makume, before you went to attack Mr Mahlatsi's butchery, how many people had attended this ANC Youth League where it was decided that he should be attacked?

MR MAKUME: I cannot exactly tell since I mentioned that this SANCO meetings were normally dominated by the ordinary residents who affiliated under the same SANCO, but SANCO's, I mean the ANC Youth League dictated the terms for the SANCO, so I cannot exactly tell how many ANC Youth League were there, because even myself I was not the ANC Youth Member by then, but I found myself supporting those activities because the ANC were dictating terms for us even in the meeting, even outside the meetings. So if I can estimate people who attack that butchery can be 15 if not 20, because all attacks took place after the dismissal of the meeting.

MS MTANGA: Okay. You just stated that the ANC dictated this information or these instructions to you at that time, were you not supporting what the ANC stood for at that time? Even on the day you went to attack Mr Mahlatsi, were you not supporting what the ANC was saying at that time, that's the ANC Youth League?

MR MAKUME: Yes, I was.

MS MTANGA: Did you ever see Mr Mahlatsi in ANC meetings?

MR MAKUME: No, I did not see Mr Mahlatsi in ANC meetings.

MS MTANGA: Between the ANC and AZAPO, which organisation dominated at Zamdela?

MR MAKUME: Well what I know is that the AZAPO was so strong in Zamdela and then it also contributed a lot in the struggle of Zamdela, but at the end of the day we were forced to leave the township by the ANC. So I can say they equally donated, the same way.

MS MTANGA: In respect of the Cronje attack or robbery, on page 19 of the bundle, that is the typed version of your affidavit, you state that some of the money that you got from the Cronjes you used for your travel arrangements to Cape Town, where you were to get more ...(indistinct) and handgrenades.

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Who was your contact person in Cape Town?

MR MAKUME: Well I did not have a person in Cape Town, but I had an information that somewhere in Khayelitsha there is a place of that nature.

MS MTANGA: Of what nature?

MR MAKUME: Where I can get even more arms and handgrenades, more especially exchanging. You know, when after winning arms this side you take them that side and you come back with arms from that side, so that you can't get easily arrested. So I was on the way to change whatever arms I won this side that side, so that I can further the operation.

MS MTANGA: Did you go to Cape Town, to Khayelitsha?

MR MAKUME: No.

MS MTANGA: And then what happened to the money that you were going to use to go to Cape Town with?

MR MAKUME: I used the money to go to Bloemfontein and Botshabelo, because to me the money was not enough to reach that point, more especially with illegal arms. So I used the money for going to Bloemfontein and Botshabelo, even return from that place.

MS MTANGA: What were you going to do in Bloemfontein and Botshabelo?

MR MAKUME: Well I was looking for the same place, because what I knew is that there was plenty of APLA cadres in the Eastern Free State.

MS MTANGA: If you were working with this Mr Makume, why wasn't he supplying you with the equipment that you needed, like the handgrenades?

MR MAKUME: I think I was really not interested in contact of any nature with this fellow comrade of mine in the township, indeed I operated in very harsh or difficult conditions because remember I said I was serving as a military man and on the other side furthering the objectives of this liberation movement, so you cannot just get involved with these guys in the township. At the very same time you cannot convince or persuade them that are you not a spy, are you not maybe a State agent or whatsoever, so I only trained these guys secretly and we just carry on with the operations.

MS MTANGA: Were you recruited by Mr Makume into the PAC?

MR MAKUME: Mr Kumane.

MS MTANGA: Sorry, Mr Kumane.

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MS MTANGA: And you're saying to us today that you were not in contact with him, you were just working on your own?

MR MAKUME: No, not with him as such, but I mean with the rest of the youth in the township. Kumane understood my conditions because he is my relative and he knew me for quite a long time, but I thought the entire supporters or the members will not have the same understanding as Kumane. So that is why I decided to do my thing on my own.

MS MTANGA: When did you join the PAC, Mr Makume?

MR MAKUME: In 1993.

MS MTANGA: When in '93?

MR MAKUME: Your Honour, I'm mistaken, it's 1992, I'm sorry. It's 1992.

MS MTANGA: So you were already a member of the PAC when you were in the Army?

MR MAKUME: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. The Panel got any questions?

JUDGE MOTATA: No, I don't.

ADV SANDI: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makume, you're excused, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead on this matter, I had hoped, unfortunately Gen Fihla had to leave, he wanted to, but his time was up, he had to leave early. He wanted to give evidence on the aspect of the Great Storm in 1993, what it meant, but since he's no longer here Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That's the case for the applicant. Mr van Rensburg, are you going to lead any evidence?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, I've got nothing further to say, my instructions are just to leave the matter in the hands of the Committee to decide. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Ms Mtanga, are you presenting any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson, I am not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you want to address us please?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes, Chairperson.

Chairperson, briefly, the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson, is clear that what he did was in support of PAC objective. I will start Chairperson, with the other incidents, the last one which one is the only one when he was in ANC camp. He was in support of the PAC objectives.

Chairperson, if one would follow and look at his actions and the targets, Chairperson, one would say, though Chairperson, I'm not an expert on that, that's why I wanted Gen Fihla, would say that if you look that his first action was to go to the military base, military camp where he was employed and he took a firearm, the next target of his was Police Dog Unit and also was also mine security, though by his own admission he attacked a wrong place because he thought that it was a security office, and the other point was Cronje's farm which he was eventually arrested and was sentenced for it.

Now Chairperson, if you look at that and you take into account all the hearings which were involving PAC/APLA activities, you would see that, Chairperson, there's nothing which Mr Makume has done which was outside what PAC and APLA was doing. Their target has -if you look at the affidavit of Phila Dolo, was that South African Defence Force, South African Police Service and reservists in general, the farmers and the white homes which they regarded as garrisons of apartheid. And if one takes that into account that which they regarded as bastions and minions of the then erstwhile regime, if you look at that in that context and look at what Mr Makume's targets were, you would definitely, Chairperson, agree with me that it was in line because all of them were policemen, police and farmers which were the targets, Chairperson.

And if the Committee agrees with me, that that argument that the targets of Mr Makume were in line with the APLA and PAC policy, then what Mr Makume was doing was in support of PAC. As he indicated that he was a soldier and he was recruited by his relative and he recruited people and trained certain people and he did not want to mix with others, because of course they were regarded with scepticism, that there's a possibility he may be coming to infiltrate them or luring them to these activities. So he had to be cautious of what he was doing, not to be involved with many people. So he had to deal with a certain few people.

Then Chairperson, it's therefore my submission that Mr Makume fulfils all the requirements of the Act in that regard. That what he did was a member of the PAC and what he did was in support of PAC and APLA policies and he genuinely believed that what he was doing was in support of the liberation struggle at that time. And therefore it's my submission and my humble submission that he should be granted amnesty as applied for, with regard to these incidents.

And also Chairperson, there is also this incident, or he has already admitted that it was thrown out of court, that at the time when they were in prison they had to fight for the question of the voting rights of the prisoners at that time, though ...(indistinct) has thrown it out of court, Chairperson. I think also it has political connotation, though at the time one would not say whether what he was doing was on behalf of any political organisation, except that he was taking up the rights of the prisoners.

But Chairperson, one other aspect I would like to bring to the Committee, that the honesty which he displayed in this Committee, he concedes on some of the aspects, he did not want to try and mislead the Committee that he knows much or this was done because he was given an order by so and so and all such things, he just became honest to the Committee and told them that, look I took my own initiative. And one, if you look at the year of the Great Storm, that's what Gen Fihla wanted to, though it has been explained in many a times that the year of the Great Storm is where the PAC wanted the masses to participate and take their own initiative and taking the struggle the regime and its supporters. So if then you take that in context, all that in context, you will definitely - Mr Makume's action fell within that, within that scope.

And also that, Chairperson, he came out, he was never, except the Cronje, none of this he was arrested for, nobody knows that he was involved, he is the person who was involved in these things. He voluntarily came up with this information, nobody knew that he was involved. So, Chairperson, I would like also that the Committee will take that into account.

Now coming to the first incident which involved Mr Mahlatsi, he openly told the Committee that he was part of the mob, he followed what was being done and without questioning that and he also believed at that time, because he was told that Mr Mahlatsi is a member of AZAPO. And he conceded under cross-examination that he can't dispute that he was not a member of AZAPO, he was a member of the ANC, and also that what they were told was wrong. He also concedes to that. And also he himself admits that after he left he discovered that it was just question of power struggle and that they were being used, but they were not told as masses, because they would never have done that if they knew what was the genuine reason for that. They have to be told what they know, that he belonged to the camp, to the opposite camp which was their enemy, so that all of them should participate in those activities.

And as such, Chairperson, it is my submission that also on this aspect he should be granted amnesty, because at the time he was involved in the burning of Mr Makume's(sic) motor car and also involved in his business, as he was part of the crowd also. He genuinely believed that he was participating in a genuine thing that Mr Mahlatsi belonged to the opposite camp, he was a part of the enemy camp, so he has to be destroyed because he believed to that enemy camp. And therefore, Chairperson, it's my submission that what he believes then, that what he was doing was genuine, should be taken into account more than what transpired thereafter, that indeed it was something else or a certain agenda of certain people.

Therefore, Chairperson, it's my submission that also on this aspect, Mr Makume has met all the requirements of the Act regarding to that aspect and he should be granted amnesty as applied for. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. I don't know if you want to add anything further, Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I've got nothing thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: I have no submissions to make, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume you won't have anything further that you want to say.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you very much, that concludes the testimony and the formalities in regard to this application. The Panel will take time to consider the matter and will endeavour to formulate a decision in the matter as soon as circumstances permit. We will notify the parties as soon as the decision is available, so the decision would be reserved.

Mr van Rensburg, I don't know if you've got any other matters before us.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, no, this is the only one I've got.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I would like to extend a word of thanks to you on behalf of the Panel, for your assistance and for being willing to come to the aid of the victims at such very short notice. Yes, as I've said, we appreciate your assistance in this matter and for being prepared to come into the matter under some pressure and for being able to have accommodated us under those circumstances, and to your clients as well for having attended the matter.

Over and above what was said in the evidence, we have most of the other documentation that bears on the matter, so we can just indicate to the victims that we're aware of the extent of what happened, the extent of damage and loss suffered and so on, so we've got all of that information before us, which we would reconsider when we are formulating our decision. So we believe that we are in a fair position to reflect the extent of these incidents in the decision which we will be formulating, but once again, thank you very much.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That is our roll for the day. And the remaining matter on the roll will be rolled over until tomorrow, Ms Mtanga? I think Mr Mbandazayo is involved.

MS MTANGA: Yes, that's the Masilo application which will be heard tomorrow with the application of Maseko.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Well thank you very much, we will now adjourn and we will reconvene in this venue tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned.