_____________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) statements taken before us, those are for the matter we're hearing tomorrow or the next day, are they?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what are we starting with now?

MR MAPOMA: We're starting with the applications which relate to the case of State vs Buthelezi. The applicants are applying for amnesty for acts relating to that which was dealt with in that case. There are a number of applicants, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the matter is set down as number one?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I now interrupt? I'm afraid I had forgotten the procedure that we have been asked to indulge in. The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson.

MR LAX: I'm Ilan Lax from Pietermartizburg.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm J B Sibanyoni from Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you please announce yourself, Leader of Evidence?

MR MAPOMA: I'm Zuko Mapoma, Leader of Evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: And who is appearing for the applicants?

MR MOERANE: Chairperson, the name is M T K Moerane S.C., appearing for all the applicants.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson. I'm Crystal Cambanis appearing for Raymond Lalla in the matter.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Chairperson, I'm Ms Mohamed from ...(indistinct) Incorporated on record representing Mr Tshika and Mr Msibi. Thank you.

MR MTHIYANE: Mr Chairperson, I appear for Mr Ngema, my name is Mthiyane, I'm B S Mthiyane.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not a matter set down for hearing today?

MR MTHIYANE: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Chairperson, before we commence proceedings, I wish on behalf of the applicant Ms D Buthelezi Mbongwa to withdraw her application.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we agree to the application being withdrawn.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I also wish to place on record the specific acts in respect of which each of the applicants seeks amnesty.

I'll start with applicant Vejanand Ramlakan. This applicant applies for amnesty in respect of certain acts which appear in bundle 1 at pages 7, 8 and 9. Those are incident 17, Chatsworth Magistrate's Court, explosive device detonated on the 13th December 1985. At the foot of page 7 of bundle 1, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just to clarify for record purposes, there is a summary which forms the beginning of that bundle but which isn't part of the paginated papers and it's page - on our copy which may be different to yours because of the way it may have been printed out. It's the bottom of page 8 of our summary of the incidents. But the numbering of incidents is the same so let's just call it incident 17.

MR MOERANE: Incident 17. Thank you Mr Lax.

And incident 18. The damage to Minister Rajbansi’s house with a limpet mine on the 4th August 1985. With regard to incidents number 13, Mr Ramlakan has been informed that he is implicated in that incident. He will give an explanation but will deny involvement in the incident.

The next applicant I propose dealing with is Mr Derek Naidoo. His application is AM4017/96. He will apply for amnesty in respect of the same two incidents, incident 17 and 18.

Next applicant is Mr Dhanpal Naidoo, AM4007/96. He also will apply for amnesty in respect of the same two incidents, 17 and 18.

So will applicant Mr Jude Francis, AM4011/96. Same two incidents.

And the same will apply to applicant David Madurai, applicant AM4013/96.

The applicant Richard Vallihu, applicant AM4010/96 will apply for amnesty in respect of one incident, that is incident 18, the incident relating to Mr Rajbansi’s house.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who is this?

MR MOERANE: Richard Vallihu.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he is asking for one only? Richard Vallihu, you say he's asking for one only?

MR MOERANE: Yes, I know that in his application he applied for both but he will only be applying for the one. He was actually not involved in the second one.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the Chatsworth Court one?

MR MOERANE: That is so, Chairperson. The next applicant is Mr Sibongiseni Dlomo. Applicant 6389/97. Chairperson, I'll be referring the Committee to bundle 2. Now this particular applicant was accused number 2 in the filed State vs Buthelezi and he will be applying for amnesty in respect of the matters referred to in the annexure to the charge sheet on page 35, pages 35 up to 37. Page 35 of bundle 2, paragraph 1 and paragraph 13 on page 37 and that in about August 1985 he trained accused number 12 in the case and one Frank Malungu at Alan Taylor residence in the use of limpet mines, explosives and handgrenades and paragraph 14 on the same page that in about September 1985 he went to Ngwavuma where he fetched three trained members of the ANC including accused number 4 and brought them to the Durban area.

I also refer the learned Committee to page 241 of the same bundle. From the second paragraph which reads as follows, paragraph 23 of annexure B alleges that accused number 2 established or assisted in establishing a dead letter box near Umhlazi. The evidence in support of this allegation proves that accused number 2 pointed out an area before the Executive Hotel in Umhlazi on the 2nd January 1986 and that as a result of the pointing out, a bag containing explosives and explosive devices was discovered in the area and what follows on that right up to page 242 which amounted to a conviction in respect of possession of those explosives and explosive devices with the intent to commit acts or violence in furtherance of the aims of the ANC and to overthrow the State authority in the Republic by means of violence. He will be applying for amnesty in respect of that conviction.

And may I with respect refer the learned Committee to bundle 1, various incidents in that bundle. I'll refer to incidents 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13.

Incident 8 being the explosion at Durban OK Bazaars, West Street, on the 27th September 1985.

In the incident number 9 being the limpet mine explosion at Game Discount World between West and Pine Street on the same day.

Incident number 10, being an explosion at Spar Foodliner, West Street, Durban, on the same day, 27th September 1985.

Incident 11, being an explosion at Checkers, Smith Street, Durban, on the same day.

Incident 12, being an explosion at the Executive Hotel, Umhlazi, on the following day 28th September 1985.

And Incident 13, being an incident wherein two persons who had in their possession a limpet mine were killed in the blast that occurred then at the Grosvener Girls School on the Bluff on 24th October 1985.

The applicant is applying for amnesty in respect of these incidents. His attitude though being that he is not certain whether or not the explosive devices which he supplied to various persons were actually used on the occasions specified but because there is a possibility that besides explosive devices were or might have been used ex abundante cautela he is applying for amnesty in respect of those incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: This is Dlomo still?

MR MOERANE: Dlomo, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that what he is saying is he admits having supplied explosive devices to these people at these times but he is not certain if they in fact used the device supplied by him to cause the explosion?

MR MOERANE: That is so. That is so. At the relevant time, not necessarily on the day or the day before, it might have even the weeks before. His function was to supply materials to these persons. He was not involved in the planning or execution of the act but because there might be a possibility that devices furnished by him were used in this incident he is applying for amnesty on that basis, Chairperson.

And just to complete the picture with regard to applicant Dlomo, I respectfully refer the learned Committee to the judgement in the Buthelezi matter in bundle 2 from pages 239 up to 242. The applicant accepts the findings in that judgement and the reason for the findings.

Chairperson, I now move on to applicant Sibosiso Mbongwa, also known as Sihle, S I H L E. I respectfully refer the learned Committee to annexure 2, pages 46 to 47. In the matter of State vs Buthelezi, the present applicant went by the name of Sibosiso Robert Ndlandzi. He is accused number 4 in the trial and allegations against him appear in the same bundle at pages 46 and ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something, sorry?

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR LAX: I thought you said annexure 2, it's in fact annexure 3, is it not? At page 47?

MR MOERANE: Bundle 2.

MR LAX: Bundle 2, sorry.

MR MOERANE: Sorry, yes.

MR LAX: I just suddenly got very confused.

MR MOERANE: Yes it's at bundle 2, I beg your pardon. It's annexure D to the charge and he was convicted of being a trained member of the ANC who had entered the Republic from Swaziland, was taken to Durban by accused numbers 2 and 3. That's paragraph 1 of annexure D. The allegation against him in paragraph 4 was the following, that he was appointed by the ANC as commander of a group of ANC members and in this capacity was responsible for training accused numbers 3, 6, 7 and 10 and others in matters relating to the ANC as well as in the use of explosives and explosive devices. At page 246 of the judgement, starting at the foot of page 245, the court came to the following conclusion:

The next paragraph:

The applicant will admit that he was a commander of ANC members and that he gave general instructions and he applies for amnesty in respect of this offence for which he was convicted.

This particular applicant has been implicated in the documents that were served on him. I refer now to bundle 1. In incident number 16, that's the Amanzimtoti explosion in the Sanlam Shopping Centre on the 23rd December 1985. This applicant denies any involvement in that particular incident.

And finally I deal with applicant, Mr Audway Msomi. Applicant AM4015/96. He was also an accused in the State vs Buthelezi matter. He was accused number 6 in that particular matter and allegations against him are to be found in bundle 2 on page 50, annexure F. He was convicted of being a member of the ANC and he was also convicted of the matters referred to in paragraph 3 on page 50 which reads as follows:

(i) 2 VFZ25 sub-machine guns, ..(indistinct).

(iii) a block of TNT,

Next allegation, paragraph 4 on page 59:

And paragraph 9 on page 52:

(x) 22 electrical detonators."

I refer the learned Committee now back to bundle 1. The incidents at page 5, incidents number 8, the explosion at the OK Bazaars, West Street, on the 27th September 1985, two mini-limpet mines.

Incident number 9, the same day, a limpet mine explosion at Game Discount World.

And on the next page, incident number 14, a limpet mine explosion at the Mobeni Post Office, Grimsby Road, on the 8th December 1985.

Incident number 15, VW Kombi bomb explosion, corner of Pine and Albert Streets in Durban, on the 21st December 1985.

This particular applicant has also been implicated in documents served on him in the Amanzimtoti explosion in the Sanlam Shopping Centre on the 23rd December 1995. This applicant denies any involvement in this particular incident.

Chairperson, those are the incidents in respect of which the applicants I represent seek amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: We have not heard you at all or your applicants as to the merits of the application so I do not want you to think that I am in any way prejudging for or against your application but seems to me that it would be desirable in the event of us deciding that we were to grant the applications, that either you should let us have at some later stage precisely descriptions of the offences for which they want amnesty or we should let you have what we have think you have set out to us this morning and let you then verify the correctness of what you have noted.

MR MOERANE: Yes Chairperson, I intend setting out the specific offences in respect of which amnesty is sought. I also propose calling the applicants to give viva voce evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: If you do set them out I thinking the references to the section of the Act, illegal possession of arms and ammunitions and those sort of things. It would save us a lot of trouble if you were to set them out rather than we have to look them up. Thank you.

MR MOERANE: I'm aware of that, Chairperson and the Committee Members have got tons and tons of work to do. Anything to assist, to alleviate that burden, I shall do.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission may I call the first applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Mr Ramlakan, how old are you?

MR RAMLAKAN: I'm 42 years old.

MR MOERANE: Where do you reside?

MR RAMLAKAN: In Pretoria.

MR MOERANE: What's your present occupation?

MR RAMLAKAN: I'm a military practitioner in the South African National Defence Force.

MR MOERANE: Which section of the Defence Force?

MR RAMLAKAN: In the military health corps.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Is it correct that you were an accused person, accused number 3 in the matter of the State vs Buthelezi and others which was heard in the High Court or the Supreme Court as it was then called, Pietermartizburg, from the 3rd November 1986 until April 1987?

MR RAMLAKAN: That is true.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that you were charged among other things of being a member of the then unlawful African National Congress?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Is it also correct that you were also charged amongst other offences of taking accused number 5, that was Jude Francis and one Rev to the house of Mr Amajan Rajbansi and instructing them to bomb the house? It's what you were charged with?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, that's what I was charged with.

MR MOERANE: And it was alleged that they reconnoitred the houses of other members of parliament?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: It was also alleged, paragraph 12, Chairperson, page 43 of bundle 2, that on the 4th August 1985 that you procured a mini-limpet mine and gave it to Rev?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, that is true. I'm not sure that I recall the exact dates but I recall the act.

MR MOERANE: Yes, I'm just dealing at the moment with the allegations.

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: And that on the same day an explosive device exploded at the house of Mr Rajbansi causing damage?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of that offence?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of that offence?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: It was also alleged, page 44, paragraph 19, that in December 1985 accused number 3 gave instructions and conspired with accused number 5, that's Jude Francis and Rev to place an explosive device at the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court and such device exploded on the 13th December 1985 causing damage?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of that offence also?

MR RAMLAKAN: Correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Is it correct that you were in fact actually involved in those incidents?

MR RAMLAKAN: That is true.

MR MOERANE: Well please tell the learned Committee why you decided to do what you did?

MR RAMLAKAN: Learned Chairperson, I decided to involve myself in the struggle against apartheid and to do all that was within my power to overthrow the apartheid regime in 1976 and I involved myself in a number of activities up until the period for which I applied for amnesty and gave my whole commitment to activities as part of the broader anti-apartheid struggle. I decided to take up arms and join Umkhonto weSizwe as the armed wing of the African National Congress in the furtherance of that aim.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Now why was Mr Rajbansi or his house or property regarded as a legitimate target for attack?

MR RAMLAKAN: At the time we had decided that - we did it to send a political message to the House of Delegates, a very strong message that would make it clear to them that their particular activities were not supported by the majority of the oppressed and what we then did was to select amongst the different political heads, so to say, at that point in time and to choose a site where we could from a military point of view achieve maximum in terms of transmitting a political message. Such an operation obviously had to be carried out within the policies of Umkhonto weSizwe and the broader African National Congress. We had surveilled the house of J M Reddy, found it to be unsuitable. The house of Bandulala, we found that to be unsuitable.

MR MOERANE: Who are these persons?

MR RAMLAKAN: These persons were either former heads of the House of Delegates Structures, they were Ministers, I believe. One of them was the previous head of the - was the Chief Minister, that's Mr J M Reddy. Mr Bandulala was a Minister as well or is the member of the House of Delegates.

Mr Rajbansi as the Chairperson of the Minister's Council was also a member of the House of Delegates which he represented or purported to represent the Indian community.

MR MOERANE: Yes?

MR RAMLAKAN: The actual decision to perform the operation at Mr Rajbansi’s house was taken after we had surveilled the whole scene, made certain judgements from a military point of view, taking into account the effect of the explosion, the need to contain the explosion, to minimise damage to property, to prevent injuries to civilians as far as possible and also for ourselves to perform that particular operation within the requirements of guerrilla warfare.

MR MOERANE: Yes, now with regard to the second incident, why was the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court regarded as a legitimate target?

MR RAMLAKAN: The Magistrate's Courts, in those days, were simply like all other arms of the judiciary apparatus, dispensing out apartheid justice. Although within these institutions it contained a number of democratically minded people and democrats, those institutions represented the legal arm of apartheid and were utilised for that very same purpose amongst other purposes of course. It was regarded by us as part of the State machinery and therefore fell within the ambit of a target for Umkhonto weSizwe to achieve a certain political message.

MR MOERANE: Now it's common cause that the explosion took place on a Friday evening at about quarter past six. Was this planned and if so, why?

MR RAMLAKAN: Well that is the time at which it would be very possible, most likely, it would be most likely that the building was unoccupied except for the persons guarding the people.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the Magistrate's Court explosion you're talking about now?

MR MOERANE: Yes, Magistrate's Court, yes.

And so you say in all probability?

MR RAMLAKAN: The place yes, in all probability there would be no damage - there would be no injury to persons.

MR MOERANE: Yes. You've mentioned "we". Who are the people with whom you were working?

MR RAMLAKAN: I was within a command structure that consisted at various times of Induduz Sihole, known as Belgium. Sihle, Sibosiswe Mbongwa, then Sibosiswe Ndlandzi, Lulamele Khatle, Sibongiseni Maxwell Dlomo and myself and beneath us, in a military sense, our subordinates, there were three. There was Ricky Dhanpal Naidoo, Raymond Metheraj - I understand his name is now Raymond Metheraj Saclou as well as Jude Francis. Within guerrilla warfare, the principle of need to know prevented me from knowing who actually was in the jurists of the commanders who reported to me as well as prevented me from knowing broader intimate details of other units that were being commanded by ourselves as a command cadre, meaning Belgium, Sihle, Lulamele, Sibongiseni and myself. I had no opportunity to get to know the identities of the different persons of the units in which the command cadre were responsible for. I knew the commanders of the units under me and ...(intervention)

MR MOERANE: And who were those commanders?

MR RAMLAKAN: Those commanders were, as I have said, Ricky Naidoo, Raymond Metheraj, Saclau and Jude Francis.

MR MOERANE: Ricky Naidoo being Dhanpal?

MR RAMLAKAN: Exactly.

MR MOERANE: The applicant and one of the applicants in this matter?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on the subject of who people are, Raymond Metheraj Saclou, you haven't mentioned him in your application, have you?

MR RAMLAKAN: I would need to look at the application, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you have but he has been mentioned in other applications and I raise the question now as to whether he has been given notice as an implicated party. At page 33 he is given as person who gave an order, Raymond Metheraj, at page 36. He is given as the commander of the unit who gave the order. At page 42 he is also referred to as the commander of the unit?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes I related directly to him for those operations and he would have passed those orders on to his - sorry, he would have executed those orders together with his unit and in the process would have then given his orders to the people who were working with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he is now?

MR RAMLAKAN: He is sitting in this hall in person.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps someone can inform him when we adjourn as to his rights as an implicated party?

MR MOERANE: While speaking about Mr Metheraj Saclou, did he give evidence in your trial?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes he did, he was a State witness.

MR MOERANE: And he was offered and he received indemnity?

MR RAMLAKAN: I am led to believe that is so.

MR MOERANE: I see. Yes, now during and after the trial you got to know the other persons who are involved in the attack on Mr Rajbansi’s house and the attack on the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court building?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: And who were those other persons?

MR RAMLAKAN: The other persons who were in the unit commanded by Raymond Metheraj Saclou, were firstly Lenny Naidoo ...(intervention)

MR MOERANE: Lenny Naidoo is now deceased?

MR RAMLAKAN: Deceased. He was killed at the border.

MR MOERANE: At Piet Retief?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, Piet Retief.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR RAMLAKAN: That has been part of a TRC hearing a time ago.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR RAMLAKAN: Derek Naidoo.

MR MOERANE: Applicant?

MR RAMLAKAN: Applicant. Richard Vallihu.

MR MOERANE: Also an applicant in this.

MR RAMLAKAN: And applicant David Madurai.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can something be done about that noise?

MR MOERANE: Now can you please tell the learned Committee about operation Butterfly?

MR RAMLAKAN: Operation Butterfly was an operation conceived by Umkhonto weSizwe and it was conceived as a result of the long lines of command and logistics that existed in the early '80s where because of the need to work from the headquarters, forward headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia through the front-line, front areas, and in our particular case, Swaziland. There were numerous difficulties in communication and in ensuring a degree of control as well as accelerating the goal and the number of operations by Umkhonto weSizwe against the apartheid forces.

It was conceived and used, in present day terminology, there was a flattening of structures with a short term communication between commanders and units on the ground. What happened was that the need to then have a highly developed infrastructure in the areas surrounding South Africa would be dispensed with and we would be able to concentrate using high technology communication directly with the headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia and other areas designated for that purpose. People in the Front Line States in the command position would be moved ahead into the Republic of South Africa so that they could be in closer contact and accelerate and minimise the time for decision meeting on operational issues. Overall, that is the operational concept of Operation Butterfly.

It also involved another important element. A direct and closer link with the political underground of the ANC during that period. Our operations, as Umkhonto weSizwe, were subject to the primacy of the political objective to the primacy of the political struggle. Although there were four pillars of the struggle, armed struggle was the pivot around which the struggle against apartheid moved. But although it was the pivot, it was subject to political objective which was to ensure the end of apartheid and freedom for the oppressed.

As a result of that operation, people, Sihle Mbongwa, was sent into the country to take over command and to be involved in the general direction at the highest level of Operation Butterfly. We fell under his command and reported directly to him. All this, however, is within the context of guerrilla warfare. With the need to know secrecy, operational readiness, operational development, all being primary to our relationship to him as a cadre. So unlike a conventional force where there would be a parade of troops who were all genuine and authentic members of Operation Butterfly, ourselves as a command cadre had minimal contact except through the actual commanders who reported to us.

So what also was primary to Operation Butterfly was the need to form larger operations directed against the apartheid regime. Therefore, operations would be conducted with the combination of units working together who would meet for the purposes of the operation and they would then, once the operation was complete, then resort to the normal guerrilla warfare mode of existence.

Operation Butterfly used the terminology the Area Political Military Committee, the APMC, and identified that as a critical component of the need to advance the activities of the armed struggle and as a part of this, development of the Area Political Military Committee, people were sent into the country to take over political command from the underground political structures of the ANC and one was involved in the transport of these people. I actually served also as a liaison between the political and the military arms of the Political Military Committee. If aspects are not clear I'm prepared to give information on that.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well could I ask a few questions now?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand, I may have misunderstood you completely, that you for example would have a unit of four people under you. You would issue instructions to those four people. They in turn might have, each one of them might have a unit of four under them, but they would not know one another, there would be a need to know principle. You would only know the four under you, you would not necessarily know all sixteen?

MR RAMLAKAN: Chairperson, that is accurately expressed. One can understand the reasoning behind this. If there was a break in the structure at any one point there would be a limit to the amount of damage that any one particular individual could due to the structure overall if he was say for instance interrogated and then after identify the persons that he'd been working with. He's knowledge would be limited to just simply the people that he worked with and that is a classical principle of guerrilla warfare.

CHAIRPERSON: And you as the liaison officer would have a contact with the political units?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But they wouldn't - their contact would be limited to you?

MR RAMLAKAN: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: So again if there was something - unfortunate happened, there would be a limitation to how far and what people would know?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that people in the political sphere would not know what was going on in the military, if I can call it that?

MR RAMLAKAN: They would know what was happening because there would be - most of the activities would be visible but they would not know the operational details, they would not know the persons involved and that and they would not know the methodology of the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: No, ...(indistinct), they would know that there had been explosions?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they could assume fairly safely that they'd probably done by uMkhonto?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But they wouldn't know who had done it?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, they would also be aware that some of these operations will be false flag operations, which was part of the scenario at that point in time, there would be operations conducted by the apartheid Security Forces so as to discredit Umkhonto weSizwe. So, but they would know which - they would know the general trend of operations and in their discussions with the military, they would know what the military plans were and what is likely to happen in the near future.

Likewise, the military would be able to also receive general information of what was going to happen in the political underground machinery. But these were general trends and tendencies without identification of persons or structures that were involved.

MR LAX: Just with regard to the APMC, was there a political component of that?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, that's the P in APMC.

MR LAX: Right.

MR RAMLAKAN: Area Political Military Committee.

MR LAX: It was within that context that you then acted as a liaison?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, there would be occasion when the top person in the military and the top person on the political might have an occasion to meet to discuss. I would be involved in setting that up and taking the necessary precautions but would not have to be part of the meeting itself.

MR MOERANE: Mr Ramlakan, in the papers served on you it's alleged that you are implicated in the Grosvener Girls School explosion on the Bluff on the 24th October 1985. What do you know about that particular incident?

MR RAMLAKAN: Some two hours after the operation itself I was visited by Vulamele Khlate who handed over to my care Sibusiso Mazibuko and I was informed by Vulamele that I had to treat this man and ensure that he leaves the country if that is possible. Now I was not informed as to how the man which I assumed was a comrade, how the comrade was injured or the actual events that lead up to him arriving at my home. I proceeded to treat him for his injuries.

MR MOERANE: What were the injuries?

MR RAMLAKAN: He had sever lacerations on his face and he had a burst eardrum and once he had stabilised and we had arrangements for his transfer to Swaziland, I and Ricky Naidoo who served in largely on a number of occasions as a logistics support officer, transported him to the border where he was handed over to the comrades who were based in Swaziland.

Upon questioning Sibu Mazibuko as to whilst he was recuperating under my care as to what had happened, he'd informed me that he was involved in the explosion at Grosvenor Girls School which was a polling station for, if I think my memory serves me correct there was a referendum around that time by the apartheid government. He was involved in that operation with two other comrades, one Zinto Cele, the other one was Mandinkosi Dimande.

MR LAX: Just repeat the last name for me please?

MR RAMLAKAN: Mandinkosi Dimande.

MR MOERANE: The names appear on page 6 of bundle 1, under incident 13.

MR RAMLAKAN: What had happened was that Zinto had gone to place the charge which was armed and Mandinkosi was about two or three metres about him and Sibu himself was a good ten metres or more behind. The charge exploded when it was switched on and he found himself on his back on open ground. He got up and ran away. He didn't let me know any further details, where he ran and what he did but he ran away and that's how he ended up being handed over to me.

MR MOERANE: Before Sibusiso Mazibuko came to you for treatment, had you known anything about that particular operation?

MR RAMLAKAN: No.

MR MOERANE: It's also alleged that you are implicated - yes, in incident number 6. This is on page - well it's incident number 6 in bundle 1, 19th June 1985 - Durban Beachfront, Excel Tearoom Explosion.

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, that appears also in bundle 2 on page 41 at paragraph 4 where the allegation in court was that I drove past the restaurant to ensure that the device had exploded. I did no such thing and I was not involved in that operation.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Now for your involvement in the African National Congress, in Umkhonto weSizwe, the underground, did you receive any financial benefit?

MR RAMLAKAN: No. The obvious other question is not asked, did I receive any financial disadvantage?

MR MOERANE: Well Mr Ramlakan, I'm not going to ask you that. Some other persons might ask you that.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you practising as a medical practitioner?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, I'd been five years qualified and at that point in time I was actively running the casualty department of King Edward VIII Hospital.

MR SIBANYONI: As a person who was involved in a struggle, obviously comrades will now and again come to you for treatment if they were involved in an operation?

MR RAMLAKAN: Not necessarily because that would flout the rules of need to know. If somebody were to present to me with an injury I would be the kind of doctor who would not ask any questions or feel a need to report as required statutorily the nature of certain injuries that I had treated. I would simply not comply with the legislation requiring me as a doctor to report to the Police authorities that for instance I treated a gunshot wound. But I was not the doctor, the military doctor who was going to treat military comrades, there were numerous sympathetic doctors who treated our people who were injured and in operations or as a result of activities of the South African Security Forces.

MR SIBANYONI: The last question, like for example Dr Ribeiro?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes, of course, he was known by the Security Forces to have treated a number of comrades and that we are given to understand is why he was killed. If I were to be the doctor who was chosen to treat the comrades, most likely that would have come to the knowledge of the Security Branches as well.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you very much.

MR MOERANE: What sentence did you receive?

MR RAMLAKAN: 12 years.

MR MOERANE: And of that how much did you serve?

MR RAMLAKAN: We were released after four years of the actual sentence itself but altogether we had been incarcerated for close on to six years.

MR MOERANE: I see. So you are applying for amnesty in respect of the offences that you have disclosed?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes. It's been quite difficult to decide what to apply for and I think overall, speaking for myself, but I think it applies to all who follow me, is that the definition of an act, what is an act, is not really understood by we laymen and in my case I didn't know whether I had to apply for those activities where I served a command function and whether - because you must remember, even in the TRC overall, there seems to have been lack of clarity about whether those of us who had been to prison would need to apply for the acts for which we had been to prison and in my application you would see that I say as requested by the Archbishop. Of course the Archbishop could only be Archbishop Desmond Tutu, but he made a plea to all of us. That combined with the instructions from Albert Luthuli House, from military headquarters that comrades who had been to prison should apply, resulted in us applying for amnesty at a very late stage. I think it was on the Friday before the applications closed on the Monday. So what you'd see is applications by our group that were done in quite a big hurry. We were complying with the request from the Archbishop and from our military headquarters.

MR MOERANE: That is all the evidence I propose leading. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm inviting all of you to comment now. Say how much time you think you need for the adjournment?

MS CAMBANIS: Chairperson, I have a very few questions and I understand that the applicant would like to leave early. I have a few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, let's see if we can go ahead.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.

Sir, the applicant Raymond Lalla, he's known to you?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And is it correct that he was doing the launching of Operation Butterfly, part of military or head of Military Intelligence in Swaziland?

MR RAMLAKAN: I don't know what his exact function was but he was in the command cadre of Swaziland which was the next layer above us.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes and did you personally meet with him in Swaziland?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes I did. The actual dates escape my memory but I have met with him in Swaziland, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And what was discussed in relation to types of targets if anything with Mr Lalla?

MR RAMLAKAN: Mr Lalla being involved in guerrilla warfare himself would not know the finer details of the operational activities in which we were engaged in. His was largely to receive information about the activities of the apartheid Security Forces to advise us on the general nature of Umkhonto weSizwe operations that needed to be conducted to determine for us theoretical priorities in terms of the range of operations that should be engaged in the near and medium future and to assist in the logistical supply.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes.

MR RAMLAKAN: Meaning to be part of that command cadre which was headed by Tami Zulu for the purpose for the period in which we're applying for amnesty. He was part of that command cadre, he was not in the command line. The direct commander was Tami Zulu and as I understand it, the instructions or whatever instructions came, which were not all given to me. Mind you, I was part of the command cadre but I played a role and it was also on a need to know. If it was decided that I didn't need to know about certain things, these were not - information was not divulged to me. It was not as if we sat down and had a meeting and took minutes about who said what, etc. But what I can say is that in my discussions with Raymond Lalla, one on one and with at one stage, I think it was with Sihle and Tami Zulu. The discussions were general, they were not specific.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes. Then during your evidence you said the immediate head internally was Sibusiso Mbongwa.

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you know who was the immediate head or the internal head prior to?

MR RAMLAKAN: The internal head prior to that was Belgium Nduduz Sithole. Belgium was his MK name. His was replaced by Sihle Mbongwa and Sihle Mbongwa was the appointed commander of Operation Butterfly. Now Operation Butterfly froze from the development of activities during period under which Belgium was in command as well. But Belgium was not a commander of Operation Butterfly per se, as I understand it.

MS CAMBANIS: And if I can refer to it as a launching of Operation Butterfly in the Natal area, about what period did the planning for this ...(indistinct)?

MR RAMLAKAN: I think it's post Kabwe Conference. So I don't know the actual date of the conference but it's post Kabwe Conference.

MS CAMBANIS: 1985.

MR RAMLAKAN: Mid 1985.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much. Chairperson, I have nothing further.

MR RAMLAKAN: Any questions?

MS MOHAMED: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MTHIYANE: No questions Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just one question.

So you say for the Chatsworth bombing it was intended to last when there were no people present there?

MR RAMLAKAN: Which of the bombings?

MR MAPOMA: The Chatsworth Magistrate's Court bombing?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Why?

MR RAMLAKAN: One tends to, one tries to be as ethical as possible in the context of war but the Americans in the bombings of Hiroshima, if you compare that sort of situation to say the Chatsworth bombing and the issue of ethics arises and out of the ethical issue the policy of Umkhonto weSizwe was to limit damage to property and person as far as possible, qualified by the understanding that in a war situation, in a situation of civil war it is practicably impossible not to have unintended consequences. In the Chatsworth operations of what is the Chatsworth Magistrate's is one, the previous one there as well, it was possible within the political objective to select targets in which we, being military persons, could carefully control the nature of the operation and to maximise the political message. There was no need to injure persons or buildings. We were part of the armed propaganda, the African National Congress, and we conducted an operation so as to heighten the efficacy of that message. There was no need to damage beyond that which is required to state the political message. This was a general principle. It is possible that that principle may have been transgressed like somebody other principles in the context of war. War is not a cold clinical business, one cannot predict outcomes. You try within a certain concept to attain your purpose with a minimum damage. This is standard military approach.

MR MAPOMA: Then what is your comment about those operations where civilians got injured?

MR RAMLAKAN: Chairperson, in order to give justice or to answer that question fully would require something like five days on my side because the question itself is very general, extremely general. What about those operations in which civilians were? I would like to know which operations these were and we can debate the ethical side of the issue and the policy side of the issue once we've given the specific details of that particular operation. I unfortunately can only talk about the ones in which I have been involved in and the ones for which I have applied for amnesty.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Ramlakan, I was asking you this question because you were a commander of MK and there are some operations which you took overall command over and in some operations under the umbrella of Operation Butterfly. There are bomb blasts which took place?

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: At places where civilians got injured.

MR RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And now what I want to find out from you in particular is whether those operations can be described as operations which took place in line with the policy of MK.

MR RAMLAKAN: I cannot speak on behalf of MK overall but what I can refer you to are the statements of Comrade Oliver Tambo, our commander-in-chief, Comrade Chris Hani, these are contained in bundle 2 in terms of the judgement and I think they accurately, I think they are around pages 100 or so. They accurately reflect the approach of MK overall and the approach of the ANC to these operations. Butterfly was not an ANC operation of a special type. It followed the similar format of all the operations around that period and must be viewed from that perspective, I feel. So what I'm saying is, in short, without wanting to appear to be evading the question, is that I bowed to higher headquarters as a military person. They have explained the issue around that period of time and I think they have done a job of explaining it fully. I cannot not offer anything in addition.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You indicated, I think, that you would ask this applicant be excused, that he had some reason why he was required urgently elsewhere?

MR RAMLAKAN: I would appreciate that, Chairperson.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Yes, unfortunately Chairperson, he has a bereavement in his family and he'd like to be excused.

One question I forgot to ask him, the formal question, is what is your rank in the military?

MR RAMLAKAN: I'm a brigadier-general.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know whether to say thank you General or thank you Doctor.

MR RAMLAKAN: Both will do, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused. If we require you we can notify you through your advocate. How long do you think we require an adjournment now. Forty minutes?

MR MOERANE: The maximum of forty minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll adjourn till 2 o'clock. The hearing will now be adjourned until 2 o'clock.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson. The next applicant I intend calling is Mr Derek Naidoo.

DEREK NAIDOO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Naidoo, how old are you?

MR NAIDOO: I am 40 years of age.

MR MOERANE: What is your present occupation?

MR NAIDOO: I'm an attorney.

MR MOERANE: In which firm.

MR NAIDOO: The firm Salashle, Pillay and Associates.

MR MOERANE: Now you are applying for amnesty in respect of two incidents, incident 17 and 18 in bundle 1, that relates to the bombing of the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court building and the bombing of the residence of Mr Amajan Rajbansi’s residence?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Were you a member of the African National Congress' underground movement?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: From what period?

MR NAIDOO: From 1984 to present.

MR MOERANE: You have heard the evidence of Dr Ramlakan, do you identify yourself with his sentiments with regard to the aims and objectives of the African National Congress in particular, it's armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR NAIDOO: I do, Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: You also identify yourself with the motives he has given for the attack on Mr Rajbansi’s house and the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court?

MR NAIDOO: I do Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: What was your particular role in the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court matter?

MR NAIDOO: Chairperson, I was the member of the unit based in Chatsworth and my role in the bombing was to one, together with members of the unit, identify a probable target and also to planned and reconnoitre that particular target which I did on that particular day and days prior to that.

MR MOERANE: Who were in the units with whom you planned this operation?

MR NAIDOO: The members that were involved was David Madurai.

MR MOERANE: One of the applicants in this matter?

MR NAIDOO: One of the applicants in this matter.

MR MOERANE: Yes?

MR NAIDOO: It was Lenny Seventhra Naidoo who is now deceased.

MR MOERANE: Yes?

MR NAIDOO: And the commander of the unit was Raymond Metheraj Saclou.

MR MOERANE: Is that the gentleman whose name was mentioned during the testimony of Dr Ramlakan?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Would you tell the Committee about Mr Metheraj and how you relate to him?

MR NAIDOO: Mr Metheraj was the commander of our unit and he had given evidence in my trial which was the State vs D Naidoo at which trial he was a State witness and I'm given to understand that by virtue of being a State witness he was given indemnity for the acts that we had committed.

MR MOERANE: Have you spoken to Mr Metheraj after the incidents and after your trial?

MR NAIDOO: I have spoken to Mr Metheraj after the trial but I did not speak to Metheraj immediately after the incident.

MR MOERANE: Yes, well what is your present relationship with Mr Metheraj?

MR NAIDOO: My relationship is one of cordiality.

MR MOERANE: The two of you have reconciled?

MR NAIDOO: We have Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: You told the learned Committee that you were charged with offences arising out of the two incidents?

MR NAIDOO: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Were you convicted?

MR NAIDOO: I was convicted.

MR MOERANE: Sentenced?

MR NAIDOO: I was sentenced to five years imprisonment.

MR MOERANE: How much of that sentence did you serve?

MR NAIDOO: Two years, Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Was this in the Regional Court?

MR NAIDOO: It was in the Regional Court, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: Durban?

MR NAIDOO: Durban.

MR MOERANE: Do you associate yourself with the reasons why these two targets were chosen?

MR NAIDOO: I do Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Did you derive any financial or material benefits from your acts as a member of the ANC, Umkhonto weSizwe or from these operations in respect of which you are seeking amnesty?

MR NAIDOO: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: That is the evidence.

MR LAX: Just one question if I may interpose? Did you have any personal grudge against any person like Mr Rajbansi? Did you know him personally?

MR NAIDOO: I don't harbour any personal grudge against Mr Rajbansi and the target obviously must be seen within the political context of the 1980's.

MR LAX: Yes. Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.

Sir, you were a member of unit and as such I take it that you never had any contact with Mr Raymond Lalla?

MR NAIDOO: No, I did not.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson, nothing further.

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions, Chairperson.

MR MTHIYANE: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MOERANE: No re-examination. May the witness be excused?

MR NAIDOO: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: With Chairperson's permission I now call to the stand Mr Dhanpal Naidoo.

DHANPAL NAIDOO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NAIDOO: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Naidoo, are you also called Ricky?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You seek amnesty for the two events or incidents 17 and 18 in bundle 1, that is the attack on the Magistrate's Court, Chatsworth and the attack on Mr Rajbansi’s house?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Were you part of the same unit as Mr Derek Naidoo?

MR NAIDOO: No Sir.

MR MOERANE: You were not. Did you belong to any unit?

MR NAIDOO: Yes I was commander of a unit consisting of myself, Patrick Lerang who is now deceased and Phila Ndwandwe who subsequently was murdered by the Security Forces.

MR MOERANE: Yes. And who was your commander?

MR NAIDOO: Veejay Ramlakan.

MR MOERANE: That is Dr Ramlakan who applied for amnesty earlier today?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Do you associate yourself with the motives deposed to by Dr Ramlakan?

MR NAIDOO: Yes.

MR MOERANE: And you also subscribe to the reasons that he gave for the selection of the two targets?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: With regard to Mr Rajbansi, did you have any personal grudge against him, did you bear him any ill will or spite?

MR NAIDOO: Not at all.

MR MOERANE: Did you know him personally?

MR NAIDOO: No Sir.

MR MOERANE: What was your role in the Magistrate's Court incident?

MR NAIDOO: My role in my unit and reporting to my commander Veejay Ramlakan was in the capacity of logistics and support. I'd agreed to meet with them at a point in Chatsworth where I delivered a parcel to him which was comprising explosives.

MR MOERANE: So you provided the explosive device?

MR NAIDOO: To Veejay Ramlakan, yes.

MR MOERANE: And what was your role in the matter relating to Mr Rajbansi’s residence?

MR NAIDOO: Similar to the Chatsworth Court experience, I'd met Veejay Ramlakan and delivered a similar parcel to him.

MR MOERANE: Did you derive any financial or material benefit from these two actions or two incidents?

MR NAIDOO: Definitely not.

MR MOERANE: You were not convicted of these offences?

MR NAIDOO: No.

MR MOERANE: Yes. That is the evidence, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.

You too, did you have any contact with the applicant Raymond Lalla in relation to these events for which you apply?

MR NAIDOO: Not at all.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: What was your involvement, if any, in the bombing of the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court?

MR MAPOMA: I delivered a parcel to Veejay Ramlakan as I indicated earlier, that was as far as I was aware of the bomb.

MR MAPOMA: Were you aware that it was going to be used in that operation?

MR NAIDOO: Not at that point in time, no.

MR MAPOMA: Did you later learn then that it was in fact used in that operation?

MR NAIDOO: It was much later after the processes of Veejay

Ramlakan's trial.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

MR LAX: At the time you handed him both these two parcels, were you aware that he was going to use them or other cadres might use them to cause some explosion or other?

MR NAIDOO: As Veejay Ramlakan indicated earlier to the Commission, it was simply an instruction to bring the parcel to him. I didn't question my orders.

MR LAX: Yes, I'm not asking whether you questioned your orders, but if you're an average human being of average intelligence and someone says to you bring me a limpet mine, to me it would seem pretty obvious that that limpet mine would then be used somewhere?

MR NAIDOO: Sure.

MR LAX: And you must have foreseen that?

MR NAIDOO: It would have been in the nature of our operations.

MR LAX: Precisely. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these limpet mines that you delivered?

MR NAIDOO: Sorry, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Were they limpet mines that you delivered?

MR NAIDOO: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one other thing. Where did you get them from?

MR NAIDOO: It was from the place that where I resided.

MR LAX: So you were in charge of ordinance?

MR NAIDOO: Yes, logistics and supply.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well where did they come from?

MR NAIDOO: From Veejay Ramlakan. We shared the residence together.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he provide the limpet mines and you stored them?

MR NAIDOO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: So it would appear you acted like you were a courier?

MR NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Did you have any dealings with Mr Raymond Metheraj?

MR NAIDOO: Not directly.

MR MOERANE: Not directly, I see. I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, any dealings with who?

MR MOERANE: Mr Raymond Metheraj Saclou.

Thank you, may the witness be excused? Thank you.

MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission I now call Mr Jude Francis.

JUDE FRANCIS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Francis, how old are you?

MR FRANCIS: I'm 36.

MR MOERANE: And where do you reside?

MR FRANCIS: I reside at the Esplanade.

MR MOERANE: Victoria Embankment?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes. You have applied for amnesty in respect of the bombing of the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court and Rajbansi’s residence?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Were you charged with those events or incidents in the matter of State vs Buthelezi?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And were you convicted?

MR FRANCIS: Yes.

MR MOERANE: What sentence did you receive?

MR FRANCIS: 6 years.

MR MOERANE: And what portion of that sentence did you serve?

MR FRANCIS: I think it was four years.

MR MOERANE: When were you released?

MR FRANCIS: I was released around October 1990.

MR MOERANE: October 1990. Yes. Is it correct that you were involved in both incidents?

MR FRANCIS: Correct.

MR MOERANE: What was your role in the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court incident?

MR FRANCIS: My role was that I supplied an explosive device to Raymond Metheraj.

MR MOERANE: Please raise your voice?

MR FRANCIS: I supplied the explosive device to Raymond Metheraj.

MR MOERANE: Yes, did you know that that device would be used in damaging the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court building?

MR FRANCIS: I did not know the intended target.

MR MOERANE: But did you appreciate that it was going to be used in destroying some property?

MR FRANCIS: I knew it was going to be used for an operation.

MR MOERANE: Yes. And did you subsequently learn that the operation had been damage to the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: With regard to the Rajbansi incident, what was your particular role?

MR FRANCIS: My particular role was that together with Veejay Ramlakan we reconnoitred the intended target and I received an explosive device from Dr Ramlakan to store and on the day of the operation itself I gave that device back to him.

MR MOERANE: Did you know that it was going to be used in that particular operation against Mr Rajbansi’s property?

MR FRANCIS: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Do you associate yourself with Dr Ramlakan's reasons firstly for choosing these two targets?

MR FRANCIS: Absolutely.

MR MOERANE: And do you associate yourself with his motives, political motives, for the doing what he and the others and you did regarding these two incidents?

MR FRANCIS: Correct.

MR MOERANE: Did you derive any financial or other material benefit from your actions with regard to these two incidents?

MR FRANCIS: No.

MR MOERANE: Were these actions done under the auspices of Operation Butterfly?

MR FRANCIS: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Chairperson, that is the evidence.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Sir, in relation to this incident, the two incidents for which you applied, did you have any contact with Mr Raymond Lalla?

MR FRANCIS: No.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Did you belong to any MK unit at all?

MR FRANCIS: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And who were your co-members?

MR FRANCIS: At that time I didn't recruit anyone, I was given a task of ...(indistinct) logistical support to Raymond Metheraj's unit.

MR MAPOMA: There is something that is not clear now, you say you provided the explosive device to Mr Ramlakan and at the same time Mr Dhanpal Naidoo did exactly that?

MR FRANCIS: I think if you listen to his evidence to point A to point B, that device was transferred to - Dhanpal transferred that to Mr Ramlakan and from point B to point C, Mr Ramlakan give the device to me to store.

MR MAPOMA: I see. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR SIBANYONI: You said you did reconnaissance, your role was to do reconnaissance in respect of the operation in Rajbansi’s house?

MR FRANCIS: Correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Right, insofar as the operation at the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court, who had told that to ensure that there should be no death or injury to persons, the device was placed when there would be no persons there, how was it ensured in the case of Rajbansi that there should be no death or injury to persons? What precautionary measures were taken?

MR FRANCIS: Well we had a discussion, I had a discussion together with Dr Veejay Ramlakan. I think it was the night before the actual operation. We looked at the target itself and we saw the approximity of the houses around Mr Rajbansi. My advice was to Dr Ramlakan then, was that you must sure that the operation that you carry out does not endanger the lives of people living around that area and subsequently I think we changed the - Dr Veejay Ramlakan supposed to speak to I think Raymond Metheraj in terms of changing the explosive that would be used for that operation.

MR SIBANYONI: Why, was it changed from an explosive which was more powerful to the one which was lesser powerful or what was it?

MR FRANCIS: The intended explosive then, if I recall was I think it was a powerful explosive. I take it we said that should be downgraded to a mini-limpet which will do minimum damage.

MR SIBANYONI: We are told that the aim was to send a message to the people who were participating in the House of Representatives but not to injure them, is that so?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR LAX: Sorry, before you do. I just want to confirm, you didn't have any personal agendas with Mr Rajbansi?

MR FRANCIS: No.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.

Now what time was the device supposed to detonate?

MR MOERANE: Well the specifics of the operation itself, I wasn't part of that, that was taken - the decision was taken by Raymond Metheraj.

MR MOERANE: I see. Well it is common cause that in fact it detonated at 10.35 at night?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: On a Sunday night?

MR FRANCIS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: At that time, at that place, is it expected that there would be persons walking up and down the street?

MR FRANCIS: Well during that period on a Sunday I think there's minimum movement of people around that place.

MR MOERANE: I see. Thank you. No further questions. May the applicant be excused? Thank you Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission I call Mr David Madurai.

DAVID MADURAI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Mr Madurai, how old are you?

MR MADURAI: I'm 39 years old.

MR MOERANE: And where do you reside?

MR MADURAI: In Johannesburg, in Yeoville.

MR MOERANE: Yes. You are applying for amnesty with regard to the two incidents which have been mentioned, that is the Chatsworth Magistrate's incident and Rajbansi incident?

MR MADURAI: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And did you take part in those incidents?

MR MADURAI: Yes I did, as part of the unit.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Firstly, tell us about this unit. Who were members of the unit?

MR MADURAI: The members of the unit were Derek Naidoo, Lenny Serandaran Naidoo, Richard Vallihu, Raymond Metheraj and myself.

MR MOERANE: Yes. What was your particular role in the incident involving the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court?

MR MADURAI: The incident involving the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court, I was involved in carrying the limpet mine. Well, doing surveillance and together with other unit members, making a decision about where it should be placed and what time and obviously placing the limpet mine.

MR MOERANE: At what time was the limpet mine placed in position?

MR MADURAI: It was placed around 6.30 on a Friday.

MR MOERANE: It's the only reason why you chose that time and that day?

MR MADURAI: Yes, the court closes at four o'clock on a Friday and there weren't any people around so - and the point that was chosen was where there were no pedestrian traffic at all. The side of the court, so therefore at that time and place, I mean that particular place of the court was chosen.

MR MOERANE: I see. What was your role regarding the Rajbansi incident?

MR MADURAI: My role together with the other unit members was to do a reconnaissance and to place the limpet mine together with other people at the edge of the wall where there would be minimum damage to Rajbansi’s house but also to any pedestrian traffic at that time as well.

MR MOERANE: Approximately what time was the limpet mine placed in position?

MR MADURAI: If my memory serves me correctly it was about 10, 10.15 around that time. I don't know the exact time.

MR MOERANE: On the Sunday evening?

MR MOERANE: Yes the Sunday was when we got our instructions from our commander, Raymond Metheraj.

MR MOERANE: Do you associate yourself with the reasons given by Dr Ramlakan and others for selection of these particular targets?

MR MADURAI: Yes I do.

MR MOERANE: And you also associate yourself with his explanation and that of the others of the political motivation of your actions?

MR MADURAI: Absolutely.

MR MOERANE: Did you derive any material or financial benefits from your actions?

MR MADURAI: No, neither did any of the other members of the unit according to my knowledge.

MR MOERANE: Did you know Mr Rajbansi personally?

MR MADURAI: No, I didn't. I mean I didn't know him personally.

MR MOERANE: Did you have any grudge or any feeling of ill will or spite against him?

MR MADURAI: Not on a personal level, no.

MR MOERANE: That is the evidence.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Sir, can I take it in relation to the events that you apply, you had no contact with Mr Raymond Lalla?

MR MADURAI: No, I did not have any contact with him at all.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Madurai, I take it that you were not alone when you went to place the limpet mine at Mr Rajbansi’s house?

MR MADURAI: No, I was not alone, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: In whose company were you?

MR MADURAI: The members of the unit, Lenny Serandaran, Derek, Raymond and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was that first one?

MR MADURAI: Lerandaran Naidoo, Lenny Serandaran Naidoo.

MR MAPOMA: And would you just put us in picture on how was this done, the placing of this limpet mine? Who did what and all that? At the scene.

MR MADURAI: At Rajbansi’s house?

MR MAPOMA: Well the limpet mine was carried by Raymond and Derek behind us and Lenny and I carried a ball with us, so that was the distraction. So we dropped the ball and the limpet mine was placed and we were picked up by Richard at the end of the street.

MR MAPOMA: And then was that the modus operandi which occurred with relation to the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court?

MR MADURAI: This play, Lenny and I carried the limpet mine to the selected point of the Chatsworth Court and Raymond and Derek were nearby as lookouts and we placed the limpet mine and then we left as well.

MR MAPOMA: So was it set that it must blast after some time?

MR MADURAI: Generally it was set to explode some thirty five minutes of the pin is pulled.

MR MAPOMA: I see. Thank you, no further questions.

MR MOERANE: May the applicant be excused? Thank you.

MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission may I call Mr Richard Vallihu.

RICHARD VALLIHU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Vallihu, how old are you?

MR VALLIHU: 36.

MR MOERANE: Where do you reside?

MR VALLIHU: Johannesburg.

MR MOERANE: Where about?

MR VALLIHU: Sandton.

MR MOERANE: Yes. You are applying for amnesty in respect of the damage to Mr Rajbansi’s house?

MR VALLIHU: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Were you involved in that incident?

MR VALLIHU: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: What was your particular role?

MR VALLIHU: I was the designated driver.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what were you?

MR VALLIHU: The driver.

MR MOERANE: He said he was the designated driver. Whom did you convey?

MR VALLIHU: Derek Naidoo, Lenny Naidoo, David Madurai and Raymond Metheraj.

MR MOERANE: Was that to and from the place where the limpet mine was place?

MR VALLIHU: Yes that is correct.

MR MOERANE: You've heard the evidence of Dr Ramlakan and the others. Do you associate yourself with their reasons for selecting Mr Rajbansi’s residence as a target?

MR VALLIHU: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Do you also associate yourself with the political motivation for doing what they and you did?

MR VALLIHU: That is true.

MR MOERANE: Did you do what you did for any financial or material motive?

MR VALLIHU: None whatsoever.

MR MOERANE: Did you benefit financially or otherwise from your act?

MR VALLIHU: No, I didn't.

MR MOERANE: I notice that in your application for amnesty, in the written application, you also applied for amnesty in respect of the bombing of the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court house, were you actually involved in that particular incident?

MR VALLIHU: No, I wasn't.

MR MOERANE: So why did you originally include that in your application?

MR VALLIHU: Well I did have knowledge of the operation, intended operation, but I didn't participate.

MR MOERANE: I see. Do you know Mr Rajbansi personally?

MR VALLIHU: No.

MR MOERANE: Do you bear him any ill will or spite?

MR VALLIHU: No.

MR MOERANE: That is the evidence, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: In your application for amnesty, when you described the nature and particulars of the acts for which you applied for amnesty in paragraph 9(a)(iv) which appears on page 32 of the paginated bundle, you say reference must be made to the case of State vs Naidoo. Were you involved in that trial as well?

MR VALLIHU: No.

MR MAPOMA: Why then do you refer to that?

MR VALLIHU: I think all the facts in the trial allude to the incident in which I was involved in.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Just question in re-examination. The D. Naidoo that you mentioned in your application, which Naidoo was this?

MR VALLIHU: I think that refers to Dhanpal Naidoo.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is D Naidoo?

MR VALLIHU: At page 32. Oh, it must be Derek Naidoo, I'm sorry about that.

MR MOERANE: It's Derek Naidoo at the Durban Regional Court. He was charged arising out of the bombing of Mr Rajbansi’s house.

MR VALLIHU: That's true, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: And to your knowledge he was convicted and sentenced?

MR VALLIHU: Yes.

MR MOERANE: So is that the case to which you're referring?

MR VALLIHU: Absolutely.

MR MOERANE: Thank you. I have no further questions. May the applicant be excused?

MR VALLIHU: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission, may I call Dr Sibongiseni Dlomo?

SIBONGISENI MAXWELL DLOMO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Dlomo, how old are you?

MR DLOMO: I'm 40 years.

MR MOERANE: And where do you reside?

MR DLOMO: In Newcastle.

MR MOERANE: And what's your occupation?

MR DLOMO: I am a medical practitioner but also my daily activities involve me as a mayor of that town.

MR MOERANE: Mayor of which particular area?

MR DLOMO: Newcastle.

MR MOERANE: Mayor of Newcastle?

MR DLOMO: Yes.

MR MOERANE: I see. Well we should call you Your Worship.

Dr Dlomo, you were an accused person in the matter of the State vs Buthelezi and eleven others before his Lordship Mr Justic Tyrian?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And you were charged with several offences some of which included being a member of the African National Congress since about November 1984?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And also taking accused number 3 in that case who was Dr Ramlakan to accused number 5 who was Mr Jude Francis and a certain person by the name of Rev - I beg your pardon I'm on the wrong page, it's on page 37 of bundle 2, paragraph 13. It was alleged that in about August 1985 you trained accused number 12 in that case who was Vosmusi Wesley Mashlobo and Frank Malunga at Alan Taylor residence in the use of limpet mines, explosives and hand grenades?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: It was also alleged that in about September 1985 you went to Ngwavuma where you fetched three trained members of the ANC including accused number 4, that was Sibosiso Robert Ndlandsi, also known as Mbongwa, also known as Sihle?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And brought them to the Durban area?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes. You were convicted of terrorism relating to the incidents that I have mentioned?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You were also charged and convicted on possession of explosives and explosive devices with the intention to use them to commit acts of violence in furtherance of the aims of the African National Congress to overthrow the State authority in the Republic?

MR DLOMO: Yes.

MR MOERANE: In particular it was alleged and it was found to have been proved that you established or assisted in establishing a dead letter box near Umhlazi, that you pointed out an area below the Executive Hotel in Umhlazi on the 2nd January 1986 as the result of which pointing out a bag containing explosives and explosive devices was discovered in that area?

MR DLOMO: That is also correct.

MR MOERANE: And you were charged with, it was established at your trial, that you had conspired with the African National Congress and members of the African National Congress including Mr Sibosiso Robert Ndlandsi also known as Mbongwa and a witness B who gave evidence in that trial and one Lulamele Khatle who refused to give evidence in that trial and one Zinto Cele to bring about the commission of acts of violence and to bring about acts that I referred to in paragraph (ii) of the Section 54 of the Terrorism Act to aid in bringing about such acts in pursuance of the aims of the African National Congress to overthrow the State authority in the Republic?

MR DLOMO: Yes, I was convicted of those activities.

MR MOERANE: Yes and what sort of sentence did you receive?

MR DLOMO: I received 10 years imprisonment.

MR MOERANE: And how much of that sentence did you serve?

MR DLOMO: I served effectively four and a half but together with the incarceration during Section 29 it was about 6 years.

MR MOERANE: So in all you spent in detention about six years, four and a half of which were in serving your sentence?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Now you are asking for amnesty to be granted to you in respect of those offences for which you are convicted and you were sentenced?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Why did you commit those offences?

MR DLOMO: I had prepared myself to be a member of the African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe and I had then made myself available for any other expectations out of me from the ANC as a contribution towards our liberation. So whatever that was instructed of me to do as a disciplined cadre of the movement, I decided to participate in it.

MR MOERANE: So you performed these acts firstly as a member of the African National Congress and in furtherance of the aims and objectives of the African National Congress?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And briefly what were those aims and objectives?

MR DLOMO: I don't want to bore the Committee but my dear comrade, Ramlakan, has fully outlined some of them which was to overthrow the State by all means available to our disposal including violent activities.

MR MOERANE: And what have you established after overthrowing the State by the means you have described?

MR DLOMO: The policies of the ANC have put it very clearly, outlining a non-sexist, democratic and non-racial South Africa that we were fighting for.

MR MOERANE: I see. So in short, are you saying that you were engaged in a war of liberation?

MR DLOMO: My only activities in all this was inspired by the policies of the ANC which was actually the champion of that type of struggle.

MR MOERANE: Yes, to overthrow the apartheid regime that was in place at the time?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now did you derive any benefit, financial or otherwise from your acts?

MR DLOMO: No.

MR MOERANE: I know you've said it, but just for emphasis, do you associate yourself with the political objectives mentioned by Dr Ramlakan?

MR DLOMO: Absolutely correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: Now I'd like to refer you to bundle 1 and the number of incidents mentioned therein.

MR DLOMO: These are incidents 8, 9, 10 and 11.

8 being the explosion of the 27th September 1985 at Durban OK Bazaars, West Street.

What can you tell the Committee about your possible role in these incidents?

MR DLOMO: Somewhere in 1985 I was given the responsibility of being part of a command structure of the MK activities in and around Durban. Among other responsibilities and specifically some of my responsibilities then was to service units, some of the MK units that were operatives in and around Durban and my contact with those units was to supply them with explosives material and some other weapons that would be used to carry out the activities in and around Durban. I did not have, however, an opportunity or a chance to instruct units as of when and where to place or put bombs but I was responsible for supplying most of the units with the explosives, that whenever the opportunity or the instruction had come to them to respond or to actually carry out operations then they will have enough supplies in their DLBs.

So with the incidents that are listed here as part of the command structure, I came to learn about them after they had taken place which was like my dear comrade, Veejay, mentioned, need to know arrangement. I needed to know that aspect that all the units I was responsible for had enough material should they be required at any given stage to respond or to use those materials but did not have to be instructed as to when and how to place those bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do I understand from this that you were supplying explosives for them to put into the DLBs and then they could use them as they thought fit?

MR DLOMO: As they fit or and as the instruction would come, when to use them and where to use them.

CHAIRPERSON: It wouldn't come from you?

MR DLOMO: Yes.

MR MOERANE: So may I conclude or infer from that, therefore that you are actually not certain whether or not limpet mines supplied by you were used in these four incidents on the 27th September 1985?

MR DLOMO: Yes, I can all for certain say that those were the limpet mines that I'd supplied.

MR MOERANE: It is possible that they might be those that you had supplied?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And is it on that basis that you are applying for amnesty for?

MR DLOMO: That is correct, just in case.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Now let's deal with incident 12, the explosion at the Executive Hotel, Umhlazi, on the 28th September 1985. Do you have anything to say about that?

MR DLOMO: Yes. This incident of Executive Hotel was carried by a unit that was headed by its commander, Zinto Cele, and that, like all other units, was an instruction that came from other responsible commanders that we're dealing with went to operate. I also had my name appearing there possibly because it could have happened that the limpet mine that was used there could have been one of those limpet mines that I continuously supplied to other units including the unit of Zinto Cele and two of the other operatives that were with him.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but you were not involved in that particular operation?

MR DLOMO: Yes, I was not.

MR MOERANE: Yes. And finally, let's deal with the incident 13, Grosvenor Girls School incident. What can you tell the learned Committee about that incident?

MR DLOMO: Like all the explosions and operations in and around Durban, as part of the command structure, I later learned about some of them after they had taken place. This operation was actually carried on by our late comrade, comrade Zinto Cele, Mandla Dimande and one of the other injured persons who survived, Sibosiso Mazibuko. I also have my name appearing there possibly on the basis that Zinto Cele as the commander of that unit was in touch with me on other issues and possibly received among other things limpet mines from me and could have used one of those in that incident too.

MR MOERANE: Yes and you confirm that the persons mentioned on page 6, under that incident, who are the persons referred to in the evidence of Dr Ramlakan?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Zinto Cele, Sibosiso Mazibuko and Mandla Nkosi Dimande?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Yes, I see your name is often mentioned under incident 16, that's the Amanzimtoti explosion on the Sanlam Shopping Centre. Firstly, were you involved in that operation?

MR DLOMO: No.

MR MOERANE: Did you subsequently learn certain things about that particular operation?

MR DLOMO: Please tell the learned Committee?

MR MOERANE: I learnt later that the bomb that exploded at the Amanzimtoti Sanlam Shopping Centre was actually put by our late comrade, Comrade Zondo.

MR MOERANE: That's Andrew Zondo?

MR DLOMO: Andrew Zondo, yes. And like all operatives in and around area, I had not taken that responsibility of instructing or giving them instructions of where to place bombs.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR DLOMO: But possibly, the other explanation why my name is appearing as an applicant here is because Andrew is mentioned and I admit to have brought Comrade Andrew Zondo from the borders of this country next to Swaziland and brought him to the Durban area and therefore took responsibility for his welfare and logistics and other logistics but the other instructions of his daily duties in and around this part of the world, I was not engaged in that.

MR MOERANE: When did you transport Mr Zondo from the border, South African border with Swaziland?

MR DLOMO: I cannot be certain, if it is not late in October, it must be very early in November.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Did you furnish Mr Zondo with any explosives or explosive devices?

MR DLOMO: No, I was not servicing him in that regard, he did not receive, he could have probably received it from some of the units if this is the limpet mine that had been brought from me. Could have been from one of the units but not specifically me giving Zondo a limpet mine.

MR MOERANE: I see and you say you are not servicing his unit?

MR DLOMO: No, I was servicing units but I was not servicing senior ANC combatant like Andrew Zondo, they did not - they had not been receiving material so I suppose I would imagine it was units that were supplying. His responsibility was to come inside the country and probably do other things to assist with the training but not to be - it was not a unit as such that would be serviced by myself, explosives.

MR MOERANE: I see. Chairperson, that is the evidence.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Sir, in relation to any of the incidents for which you now apply did you have any contact in relation to those incidents with the applicant, Lalla, Raymond Lalla?

MR DLOMO: No.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Dlomo, do you know the applicant Thuso Tshika?

MR DLOMO: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: Now in relation to your application for amnesty for incident number 9 which is the explosion at Game, did you have any contact with Mr Tshika?

MR DLOMO: In relation to the bomb?

MS MOHAMED: At Game, yes.

MR DLOMO: Not in that specific way but Mr Tshika was one of the operatives in a particular unit. I would not have known him that much personally but I would have been liaising with his commander about other MK activities in and around our part of the country but I would not then be instructed even to the units to place bombs at a particular area. I was in touch with his commander and I also knew him.

MS MOHAMED: Okay, can you just tell us who his commander was?

MR DLOMO: The commander of that unit was Qandam Msomi.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you very much. Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson. Thank you.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson. Dr Dlomo, I'm sorry to - I just want to go back a little bit and clarify something with you with regard to incidents 12, 13 and 16. I'm just a little confused by your testimony and I just want to clear this up if you allow me.

Did I understand you to say you may have supplied those units with ordinance or explosives that would have been used?

MR DLOMO: No, I didn't say that. I said that they might have used the limpet mines or the other explosives that I had supplied. I had supplied them with material.

MR LAX: Yes, no that's precisely what I did understand. I just put it in a different way, I put it more positively. You supplied those units, they may have used them in those incidents?

MR DLOMO: Correct.

MR LAX: What is the difference then between 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, 13? Because to me you supplied units, you didn't know what they were going to do with them, you are claiming amnesty for 8, 9, 10 and 11 because you are presuming that the possibility exists that those were explosives supplied by you. You're not applying for 12 and 13 but you are presuming that those are also explosives that you supplied?

MR MOERANE: I beg the Chairperson's pardon. He is applying for 12 and 13.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, sorry. Thank you for that correction. That clarifies it for me, I just got the impression that he wasn't applying for those.

MR MOERANE: They're only separated because the four occurred on one day, on the 27th September.

MR LAX: No, fair enough. In that case there's no problem.

MR DLOMO: ...(inaudible)

MR LAX: Yes but you've made that clear that with regard to 16, the limpet mine used in 16 may have been one that you had supplied to a unit but you didn't supply it to Mr Zondo. That's what you're saying?

MR DLOMO: That is correct.

MR LAX: Again I'm slightly puzzled. If it was one that you did possibly supply and you foresaw that it would be used in some way or other, why are you hesitant to apply for amnesty for that if it may have been the one that you used in the same level of possibility?

MR DLOMO: No, I did not hesitate. I take full responsibility of all the units, the explosives that they had, that they could have used them at any given time and when the instruction came.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR DLOMO: So too if this limpet that was used at Amanzimtoti had been given Andrew Zondo by one of the units that I could have serviced, that's what I'm saying. I'm leaving that open possibility, I'm not denying application for but I was just expressing my involvement, that I was not directly involved in this incident of Amanzimtoti ...(indistinct), possibly the limpet mine used there could have been one of those that had been given any of the other units.

MR LAX: Yes, you see what I didn't understand was that it was specifically a matter which you weren't applying for and I don't see the difference between it and the other matters because in all of them, in all of them you had no personal knowledge of what would happen to the explosive. You didn't issue any instructions yourself but you did supply the ordinance?

MR DLOMO: Yes. Maybe I should also share this information that is actually being explained very easily when you look at incident 8, 9, 10, 11, that all of them took place on one day and obviously within ten minutes of each other so no matter how good I could have been, it could not have been possible, it was all different units that we were responsible for that at different places almost virtually the same time. So it was actually then to explain further on that all these other ones that could have taken place, possibly limpet mines that had been supplied by me to those various units, could have been used for those incidents including the incident on 16.

MR LAX: Yes. Perhaps this is something we can clear up in argument in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Dr Dlomo, I got the impression that you make a distinction between units which were involved or may have been involved in incidents 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 on the one hand and 16, the Amanzimtoti incident. Is that the impression that I have correct?

MR DLOMO: You see when you read or you get the information on incident 16 it talks about Andrew Zondo who got a limpet from a Mofokeng. That was not known to me so if then this was proven in court that he actually got a limpet mine from Mr Mofokeng then he probably got it from someone I have never known or have seen before and that is why in fact incident 16 is that very different from the other incidents that I have mentioned before.

MR MOERANE: I see. So you are going here by the allegation that has been put with regard to incident 16 that Tallman gave Zondo instructions to retaliate for the Maseru Raid between 21st and 23rd December. Zondo selected a target in Amanzimtoti, Zondo got a limpet mine from Mofokeng. So are you saying that if in fact it is true, that he obtained the limpet mine from Mofokeng then it was not from your supply?

MR DLOMO: Absolutely correct.

MR MOERANE: I see. Thank you Chairperson. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: May the applicant be excused? Thank you.

MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission I call Sibosiso Mbongwa.

SIBOSISO MBONGWA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you also go by the surname of Ndlazi?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct, I did to a point.

MR MOERANE: At one point?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Certainly when you appeared before his lordship, Mr Justice Tyrian, you went by that name?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And you are also known as Sihle? S-I-H-L-E?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR MBONGWA: How old are you?

MR MBONGWA: 47.

MR MOERANE: And where do you reside?

MR MBONGWA: Woodlands, Durban, but normally I'm in Johannesburg.

MR MOERANE: Yes. You appeared as an accused person, accused number 4, in the matter of the State vs Buthelezi and others?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You were charged with amongst other charges, paragraph 1, annexure D, bundle 2, page 46. It was alleged that in about September 1985 you being a trained member of the ANC entered the Republic from Swaziland and you were taken to Durban by Dr Dlomo and Dr Ramlakan who were accused numbers 2 and 3 respectively.

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And it was alleged that you were appointed by the ANC as commander of a group of ANC members and in this capacity you are responsible for training Dr Ramlakan, Mr Audray Qonda Msomi, one of the applicants, Mr Sipho Stanley Mbele and Mr Bawana Ngucu who was an accused, accused number 10 in the proceedings?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: It was alleged that you are responsible for training them in matters relating to the ANC and as well as in the use of explosives and explosive devices?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of entering South Africa as alleged and with regard to the allegation in paragraph 4, your conviction was based on the following basis and I'll read out what the learned judge had to say on page 245 of bundle 2, last line:

To that limited extent, the State has proved the allegation in paragraph 4 of annexure D?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR MOERANE: The court found that the lecture which you gave accused number 12 and C was an act which also constituted contravention of the terrorism provision in the Act?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And you were sentenced to what period of imprisonment?

MR MBONGWA: 12 years.

MR MOERANE: 12 years and when were you released from custody?

MR MBONGWA: I was released in May 1991.

MR MOERANE: Were you the last of the group to have been released?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You are applying for amnesty for the acts for which you were convicted?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You do admit though that you were appointed a commander?

MR MBONGWA: I agree, I was.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Now please tell the learned Committee about this appointment of yourself as commander? Commander of what and who appointed you and what were you to command?

MR MBONGWA: I was appointed by the African National Congress and members of the High Command of Umkhonto weSizwe to take over the command of an operation which was to be known as Operation Butterfly. That instruction was specifically conveyed to me whilst in Maputo. I had to prepare to take over that command. It entailed quite a number of issues some of which have been related to this Committee by Dr Ramlakan. Without worrying the Committee with the details, I will set out the context in which Operation Butterfly was conceived and how I operationalized it.

Sometime in the mid '80s, probably 1984 or so forth the leaders of the African National Congress had to make a review and evaluate its conduct of war inside South Africa. The strategic objective has been at all times has been to overthrow the then established South African Government. The issue as to how soon had to be answered within the context of our evaluation at that time.

One of the problems was the need to integrate the political machinery as well as the armed machinery. A further restructuring of the structures of the ANC. I could be recalled that from 1969 the African National Congress had what was known by then as the RC, that is the Revolutionary Council which had been specifically tasked to execute armed operations in South Africa. However, ...(intervention)

MR MOERANE: Was that after the Morogoro Conference?

MR MBONGWA: That was after the Morogoro Conference.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

MR MBONGWA: By 1985 that structure was dissolved therefore it was replaced by what became known as the Political Military Committee. I was therefore tasked to create the area Political Military Committee in South Africa specifically in Natal, APMC. The objectives of the need for that APMC, one was to weld together, integrate all the political machinery and the MK machinery. In other words, one of the problems as alluded to by Dr Ramlakan, we had, so to say, to locate Lusaka inside South Africa itself so that we will be in a position to give answers to the situation as it developed by then, now the issue of communication and so forth.

However, APMC itself was structured as follows. I was head of it. The political aspect of it was handled by Leonard or Trix. The propaganda aspect of it was dealt with by Kevin. There had to be an intelligence component in it in as much as there was to be logistics component in it as part of that structure. However, at that time I had to deal with those issues. Only two appointments had been made at that time. That is myself and Trix.

MR MOERANE: What were the other names of Trix?

MR MBONGWA: Terrence Triam.

MR MOERANE: Yes, proceed please?

MR MBONGWA: Kevin was to be on the propaganda aspect of it. Other posts had not been filled at that time and those appointments were not my responsibility and they had to be appointed by higher headquarters. In other words, we were looking at an all round offensive against the South African Government with the intention and objective to overthrow it by means that would include the use of force.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Do you associate yourself with the political motivation for your actions, all your actions as outlined by Dr Ramlakan and the others who have given evidence?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now in documents furnished to you referring particularly to bundle 1, it is alleged that you are implicated in the Amanzimtoti explosion at Sanlam Shopping Centre, 23rd December 1985. What's your response to that allegation?

MR MBONGWA: I learnt of it after the fact. In other words after it had happened.

MR MOERANE: Can I assume from that reply that you had not planned it?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Was that particular act within the contemplation of what you had generally planned?

MR MBONGWA: No.

MR MOERANE: Did you derive any financial or other benefit from your activities?

MR MBONGWA: Not at all and I did not expect it.

MR MOERANE: So are you applying for amnesty for the acts for which you were convicted in the trial and also the other acts and involvement that you have referred to in your evidence today?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: That's the evidence, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

Sir, would it be correct to describe Operation Butterfly as an attempt by Umkhonto weSizwe to increase the number of units, MK units operational in the Durban and surrounding area. Is that one way of putting it?

MR MBONGWA: In fact to do whatever that could bring our liberation much closer that includes that.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes.

MR MBONGWA: But not limited to.

MS CAMBANIS: That was part of the ...(indistinct)?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And the command structures in Swaziland, did you have occasion to meet with Mr Raymond Lalla in Swaziland?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: In relation to Operation Butterfly?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And do you know what year? Can you remember more or less what year that would have been?

MR MBONGWA: It was sometime around about 1985.

MS CAMBANIS: 1985. Mr Lalla will tell the Committee that discussions relating to Operation Butterfly in fact began sometime before that and I think you agree because you took over - he has given evidence that you took over the command?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: For Operation Butterfly?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And from who was that?

MR MBONGWA: Tami Zulu.

MS CAMBANIS: Who is Mr Sithole that was referred to by Dr Ramlakan?

MR MBONGWA: I know Benjam or Sithole but I had nothing to do with him in terms of operations.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes. Was he not prior to your command based internally?

MR MBONGWA: I heard about it.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes. And Mr Tami Zulu was based externally in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes. Now my instructions from Mr Lalla is that he recalls Dr Ramlakan saying that he was also - Mr Lalla was also involved in logistics. I haven't had that note but he picked that up, he says that he was not involved in the logistics of Operation Butterfly. Those are my instructions. Do you have any knowledge of that?

MR MBONGWA: No, I don't know what took place between Dr Ramlakan and Raymond Lalla because of the principle of the need to know basis.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes.

MR MBONGWA: But yes we did discuss with Raymond Lalla specific aspects of the Butterfly project.

MS CAMBANIS: What aspects for example?

MR MBONGWA: Broadly it was in terms of the context and how that strategy needs to be operationalized. The issue was integrate the political machinery as well as the military machinery. Continue to develop strong viable underground structures of Umkhonto weSizwe so is of the political machinery of the ANC, the other broad strategy obviously continue with activities that must undermine South African State. Come out in support of our people who are on strike, that will be workers, generally isolate the regime and ensure that there is proper co-ordination and functioning between the political activity which must inform MK activity.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes and then just to summarise, your knowledge of Operation Butterfly begins in 1985 approximately?

MR MBONGWA: I would say that not necessarily in 1985. There had been prior discussions including the Kabwe Conference.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes.

MR MBONGWA: It is the culmination of these things that creates or produces among other things Operation Butterfly.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much. Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Mbongwa, did you know Thuso Tshika around this time in 1985?

MR MBONGWA: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: How did you know him?

MR MBONGWA: At one time I gave him training but I did not know who he was.

MS MOHAMED: But you did give him training?

MR MBONGWA: Yes. Okay, now I want to take you to page 47 of bundle 2. This is actually some of the charges that you faced in State vs Buthelezi. In paragraph 7 the charges state that you had improvised accused number 6 who I think it the applicant Audway Msomi who acted under your instructions together with others and they placed a bomb at Mobeni Post Office. Can you just confirm that or would you like to comment on that?

MR MBONGWA: Not true.

MS MOHAMED: So you didn't give that instruction?

MR MBONGWA: No.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you. Sorry, Chairperson, if I just may?

Do you know if anybody had given an instruction of that nature?

MR MBONGWA: All I can say is on my arrival inside the country I did meet with Dr Sibongiseni Dlomo, I did meet with Dr Veejay Ramlakan. I did meet with Lulamele Khlate. I did give general instructions that military operations must be continued and be intensified. I did give that instruction but I gave it to them.

MS MOHAMED: So it's possible that this instruction would have been floated down?

MR MBONGWA: The?

MS MOHAMED: It's possible that these instructions would have been floated down to other members of the cells?

MR MBONGWA: They had to do that, it was their duty to do so.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose? Just to follow up on this question so it's crystal clear. That incident referred to at paragraph 7 on page 47 of bundle 2, was there any doubt in your mind that was a bona fide action on behalf of MK?

MR MBONGWA: Repeat?

MR LAX: Is there any doubt in your mind that that was a properly authorised action on behalf of MK? In other words it was the bombing at the post office at Mobeni, 8th December 1985?

MR MBONGWA: Oh, the post office was to me a perfect target, legitimate target. It had to be bombed.

MR LAX: And that would have been in terms of the kind of general instruction that you gave them to intensify the armed struggle?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

Mr Mbongwa, we have at this hearing present persons who happened to be injured during the bombing at the Mobeni Post Office. They were ordinary civilians and they are here now. What would you say to them, what message would you pass to them?

MR MBONGWA: I would have preferred it to give a very broad answer to that but the first and the immediate one would be to express apology regarding that particular incident in terms of those who were injured. I could not know about the specifics regarding the operation itself save to say that the post office itself to me was a legitimate target but obviously one would have expected that certain precautions in line with what has already been outlined by my colleagues.

MR MAPOMA: Now the Amanzimtoti bombing for which Andrew Zondo was responsible was an MK operation, no doubt about it. Is that not so?

MR MBONGWA: Depending on the context. What I can say, I confirm that Zondo was a member of the African National Congress. I confirm that he was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR MAPOMA: And that operation was it not falling within the Butterfly Project operations?

MR MBONGWA: No. Within Butterfly Amanzimtoti was not planned or contemplated. But yes, it was carried out by one of us and you cannot deny that he was part of us, he was and we accept that.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something? Was he part of the Butterfly structure or was he part of MK when you say he was "one of us".

MR MBONGWA: No, he was part of MK. He was part of MK.

MR LAX: I just wanted to avoid that confusion.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I mean while he was part of MK but he was conveyed by members of the Butterfly Operation?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Into the country. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I regret I haven't got the books with me at the moment, it's still in my office and I don't want to waste time

getting them. My recollection is that the ANC in its public statements, you know it published certain books, submissions it made, indicated that at this period they sought to avoid the unnecessary killing of civilians.

MR MBONGWA: I confirm but I will add that to my understanding is that at all times it has tried to avoid that, not necessarily at a specific time, at all times.

CHAIRPERSON: I will agree with that if you're prepared to extend it that it was not the policy to recklessly throw bombs into crowded shops full of people. That sort of thing was not ANC policy, was it?

MR MBONGWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR MOERANE: No re-examination. May the applicant be excused? Thank you.

MR MOERANE: Chairperson, I do not know at what time the Committee normally adjourns.

CHAIRPERSON: We normally adjourn at four, we thought we might sit later this afternoon because we started very late. But when we discussed that and came to that conclusion we didn't think you would have got to nearly as many applicants as you have. What is your - I'm quite happy to hear your views. We have one matter set down. Oh no, we have two matters set down for tomorrow.

MR MOERANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How much longer do you think you'll be?

MR MOERANE: I don't know, I have only one more applicant left, Mr Msomi.

CHAIRPERSON: Well do you want to call him now and then take the adjournment so you can prepare to address us or would you rather take the adjournment now? There are other applicants who are also going to give evidence are there? Sorry, I overlooked that. So we will not finish this afternoon?

MR MOERANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What does 9 o'clock sound like to you?

MR MOERANE: It's fine Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Right in those circumstances I think we will take the adjournment now because despite the fact that we started late, I'm well aware of the fact that a number of you have been sitting here all day. We will adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.