_____________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) go through the formalities of putting the Panel on record. The matter that is before us is that of David Ace Phetla. Mr Koopedi appears for the applicant and he has indicated that the application is to be withdrawn. Mr Koopedi, if you could confirm that then we can deal with the matter?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. It is so, I appear here on behalf of David Ace Phetla and I was instructed by him to withdraw his application this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you Mr Koopedi. The application is then withdrawn and then disposed of. We have convened just to deal with this matter for logistical reasons and will adjourn now, stand down and reconvene once we are ready to proceed with the rest of the roll.

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to continue the proceedings. For the record it is Monday, 2nd October 2000. It's a sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel consists of myself, my name is Denzil Potgieter and with me are Advocates Bosman and Sandi. The application which is before us is that of Zwelakhe Thandikosi Cebekhulu. The amnesty reference number is AM4444/96. Just for purposes of the record I'm going to ask the legal representatives to place themselves on the record, I think starting with Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, it's Anina van der Westhuizen, I appear on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. And are you on your own Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be allowed to place on record the names of the victims who are here? We have Mr Alpheus Mandlagasi Langa and the second victim is here, is Nontlantla Jame Muhlundlu. Chairperson, all the victims were notified including the next-of-kin of Mr Buthelezi who died in this incident and they had indicated that they would want to come but they have not arrived yet. I'm not sure if they're still coming or not but the only victims that are here so far are the two people that I've just mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. You say there's no indication in regard to the next-of-kin of Mr Buthelezi?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Have they given any indication as to whether they were contemplating opposing the application when the notices were served on them?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we don't have that indication. The only indication we got was from the Langa family.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. You are satisfied that the notices were served properly on the Buthelezi next-of-kin?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson. The office will be faxing me the return of service to confirm that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking for the matter to proceed in the circumstances?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, under those circumstances the matter will proceed. We have commenced the proceedings much later than would have been the indication on the notices so under those circumstances we proceed with the application. Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson. Before we start with the applicant in this matter I'd like to point out some mistakes that the applicant want's the Committee's attention to be drawn to and the first one is on page 2 of the bundle and that is the first incident, the first murder for which he is applying for amnesty. Chairperson, you will notice that on the first date given there is 1988. That seems to be incorrect. According to the applicant it should be 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that paragraph 9a(ii)?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed so.

CHAIRPERSON: That should read 1985. We've noted that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then on page 7, that's some answers given apparently to questions from the TRC, the first paragraph, the long paragraph, it's stated and this refers to this incident, this date of 1985, that:

Honourable Chairperson, this is also not correct according to the applicant because of this date change.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then, Chairperson, it's also - the answers given on page 13, it's requested further particulars from the TRC, just two matters and that is the first - it's 1(c).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The answer given there is:

Honourable Chairperson, he also states his uncle also together with Langa Kimba told him that some ANC members killed his uncle. So just the uncle should be added.

CHAIRPERSON: Added. Yes, thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then the 2(c) as well. There are three names there. He indicates that the last name Bheki Sibiya was a person who did not enter the house, he stayed outside of the house and that the first two names, Musamewa Sikakane and Bheki Umkonsa in fact entered the house during that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, that concludes the mistakes.

CHAIRPERSON: We've noted that. Shall we administer the oath to your client?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ZWELAKHE THANDIKOSI CEBEKHULU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Cebekhulu, can you please describe to this Committee your personal background? Where are you coming from, where did you grow up?

MR CEBEKHULU: I come from Nqutu in Kwa-Zulu Natal, that's where I grew up at a Section called Shlashagate.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now at some stage you moved to the Gauteng area. Where did you reside?

MR CEBEKHULU: I resided at the Baragwanath Hospital where I was working.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you belong to any political party?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, I was a member of the IFP.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And were you also a member of a specific branch of the IFP?

MR CEBEKHULU: I was not a member of any branch but I was just a member of the IFP.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you go to or attend meetings of any particular branch even if you didn't belong to a specific branch?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, I used to attend meetings.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where?

MR CEBEKHULU: In the township.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you applied ...(intervention)

MR CEBEKHULU: Excuse me, let me rectify this. At Score Metals.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you. You applied for one incident where a Xhosa man was killed. I'm just going to refer to this incident as a killing of a Xhosa man, just to make it easier and in relation to this incident, can you tell this Honourable Committee what led to the killing of this Xhosa man?

MR CEBEKHULU: He had been a member of the ANC.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: One of your relatives, was one of your relatives killed during that time?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was that?

MR CEBEKHULU: Umsyifaan Cebekhulu.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What relationship was he to you, was he a brother or who was he?

MR CEBEKHULU: He was my father.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did he work?

MR CEBEKHULU: At Baragwanath Hospital.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now did you receive information about who killed this father of yours?

MR CEBEKHULU: The information that I gathered was to the effect that it was the ANC involved in his death because he was a member of the IFP.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who told you this?

MR CEBEKHULU: Cebekhulu told me this.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And is he the only one that provided you with this information?

MR CEBEKHULU: Landa Khumba also added or actually confirmed this.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where were you when you were given this information?

MR CEBEKHULU: I was at Score Metals.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And the people, did you receive names of these killers?

MR CEBEKHULU: The names that I received were those of Nganeni Bata and Nshlomoshle as well as one other man of the Xhosa community or Xhosa ethnic group rather.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The names given to you, did you know them by sight?

MR CEBEKHULU: I knew two of them.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were any of them pointed out to them?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where were they pointed out to you?

MR CEBEKHULU: They were at a meeting at score metals.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you discuss the killing of these people with anyone or did you just decide on your own that you will take revenge?

MR CEBEKHULU: We did not decide as a group, I just made a sole decision.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So what happened after you received this information, were you looking for the suspects to kill them? What did you do?

MR CEBEKHULU: We were in town going to a woman who was selling fruits and Westgate and we came across one of the guys who was present and then I shot him.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you proceed can you just tell us who was with you on that day?

MR CEBEKHULU: Bekseni Cebekhulu was in my company.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is that your brother?

MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you both armed on that day?

MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct, both of us were armed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the suspect that you saw, did you know him by name?

MR CEBEKHULU: I didn't know the name, I only knew him by sight after he was pointed out.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How do you know that he was a member of the ANC?

MR CEBEKHULU: I used to see them at a meeting when they attended the meeting at Score Metals.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you say when you got close to Westgate when you saw this man you took out your firearm and you fired at him, was he alone at that stage or was he part of a group?

MR CEBEKHULU: He was in the company of some other people.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The people from that group, did they shoot at you at all, did they return the fire or what happened?

MR CEBEKHULU: They ran away but there were some firings which I couldn't establish whence they came and I got shot in the process.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now after you shot this man, did you tell anybody that you've now revenged your uncle's death?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, I did not tell anybody. Instead I was arrested.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it his uncle or his father, Ms van der Westhuizen? My notes say his father.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Honourable Member, I think we can maybe clarify that with him. In the application he speaks of his uncle and before the Committee he's now speaking of his father. I don't know if he's - he might be referring to his uncle as his father.

ADV BOSMAN: It's perhaps an appropriate time to clarify it so that we could follow the rest of his evidence?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: We'll clarify that.

Mr Cebekhulu, the person whose death you revenged, was he your blood father or was he an uncle of yours?

MR CEBEKHULU: That was my uncle, his name was Tushelele Cebekhulu.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to move on to the second incident and I refer to this as the Vosloorus attack, that is the place where you went to an attacked a number of people in the Langa household. Can you tell the Committee how did this attack come about? Who called you to go to that house?

MR CEBEKHULU: Ngalelo Sikakane came to Diepkloof.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes and what did he tell you?

MR CEBEKHULU: He came to inform us that there were ANC members who resided at Manana and we agreed that we should go and kill them.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now this Mr Sikakane, who was he?

MR CEBEKHULU: He too was an IFP member.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did he have any leadership position?

MR CEBEKHULU: I did not know his position within the IFP.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When you say he came to you in Diepkloof, where is he from? Is he from another area?

MR CEBEKHULU: He resided at Vosloorus at the hostel that was predominantly occupied by isiZulu speaking people.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when he approached you in Diepkloof, were you with some other people or were you alone?

MR CEBEKHULU: I was in the company of other people.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who are they?

MR CEBEKHULU: Bheki Spia, Bheki Mkonso as well as Bekseni Cebekhulu himself and Lulenduneni Mkonso. There was quite a number of us who stayed there.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So when he approached you and said that you must go attack ANC people in Vosloorus, did he tell you why you should go and attack these people?

MR CEBEKHULU: He said he had been attacked after he had lost two family members.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes and after this after request was put to you did you go with him to Vosloorus?

MR CEBEKHULU: Indeed we went to Vosloorus, there were six of us.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What time of the day was this more or less?

MR CEBEKHULU: It was after eleven o'clock and headed towards twelve.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When you arrived at the Vosloorus area, where did you go to first?

MR CEBEKHULU: We started at the hostel and after that we went to the township because Sikakane was familiar with the neighbourhood.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What did you do at the hostel?

MR CEBEKHULU: We discussed our route.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you armed at that stage?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you left the hostel did you leave in a group?

MR CEBEKHULU: We separated. Two were in front, others in the middle and the last group at the back.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you give the names of all the people who went with you to this specific house or who were members of that group at that stage?

MR CEBEKHULU: Myself and Bheki Mkonso as well as Ngalelo Sikakane were in front and behind us was Lulenduneni Mkonso, Bheki Spia and Zazi Sikakane.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now who would you say was the leader of this group?

MR CEBEKHULU: Sikakane.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is he the one who pointed out the house that you were on your way to attack?

MR CEBEKHULU: Correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The other members of this group, were they armed?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes they were armed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: With firearms?

MR CEBEKHULU: One of them was in possession of a firearm and the other ones were armed with knobkierries.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who had the firearm?

MR CEBEKHULU: Bheki Spia.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you arrived at this house what happened then?

MR CEBEKHULU: We entered the household and on entering the kitchen then Langa saw me. They then stood up and fled into the bedroom. That's when I started opening fire.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you continue, you say "we entered the household", did all of you enter into that house or did some remain outside?

MR CEBEKHULU: There were a few of us inside and outside there were three others waiting.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Please tell the Honourable Committee who went in the house and who remained outside?

MR CEBEKHULU: Myself, Ngalelo Sikakane and Bheki Mkonso went inside. Bheki Spia and Zazi Sikakane as well as Luluenduneni Mkonso waited outside.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Why were they waiting outside?

MR CEBEKHULU: They were waiting for anybody who was attempting to flee so that they could be shot.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you say upon entering, Langa saw you and fled. Where did you know this Mr Langa from?

MR CEBEKHULU: I know him from Nqutu.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you know whether he was a member of the ANC or not?

MR CEBEKHULU: I had been informed by Sikakane that he was a member of the ANC.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you speak to anybody in that house when you entered the house?

MR CEBEKHULU: No.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you entered the house, who did you see apart from Mr Langa? Did you see other people in the house?

MR CEBEKHULU: There is one woman who was in their company.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And your plan, when you approached that house, were you just going to shoot anybody in that house or were you looking for specific people?

MR CEBEKHULU: We had planned to shoot anybody inside because Sikakane had indicated that everybody in that house belonged to the ANC.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now how many shots did you fire inside that house?

MR CEBEKHULU: Twice.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And could you see whether you hit anybody or bullets hit anybody?

MR CEBEKHULU: Correct, one male and one female were shot.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And is it correct the male is the person who died?

MR CEBEKHULU: Correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now what happened afterwards, after you'd fired these shots?

MR CEBEKHULU: They fled into the bedroom and we too ran away.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you were arrested that same day, is that correct?

MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now these people that you went out to attack, is it so that you didn't know yourself whether they were ANC members, you just attacked them on the word of Mr Sikakane?

MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, thank you.

Mr Cebekhulu, you indicated that you didn't know whether Langa was an ANC member or not, you were only told by Sikakane. How long before this incident did Sikakane tell you that Langa was an ANC member? How long before you went to attack?

MR CEBEKHULU: On the day when he arrived at Diepkloof.

MS MTANGA: You also indicated that the reason that Sikakane came to see you it was because two of his relatives had been killed by the ANC, am I correct?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct. He was also attacked.

MS MTANGA: Where did this take place?

MR CEBEKHULU: He was attacked in the firm where he was working in Boksburg.

MS MTANGA: Did he say who attacked him?

MR CEBEKHULU: He just said it was members of the ANC, he didn't mention any names.

MS MTANGA: You also mentioned that when you arrived at the house of Langa, when he saw you he ran away or he fled into his bedroom. Am I correct to say that?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MS MTANGA: Did Langa consider you his enemy or did you at that time think he considered you as an enemy?

MR CEBEKHULU: He ran away because he perceived us as enemies.

MS MTANGA: Why were you his enemies or why did he consider you his enemies?

MR CEBEKHULU: Sikakane and Langa knew each other. Sikakane knew that Langa was an ANC and Langa as well knew that Sikakane was an IFP member.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu, we're talking about 1989 here. This incident took place on the 8th October 1989. The ANC was banned at that time so how would Mr Langa have joined the ANC at that time, in 1989?

MR CEBEKHULU: Even though the ANC was banned but it was present.

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa will come here and testify that the reason they were attacked on that day it's because of the impi that was taking place back at home in Nqutu. What do you say to this, Mr Cebekhulu?

MR CEBEKHULU: I wouldn't dispute that but at the time I didn't know that information and I was a member of IFP and I was working as a member of IFP and I was resident in Johannesburg, I was not residing at home.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu, you and Mr Sikakane and Mr Langa, as you all came from Nqutu, isn't that so?

MR CEBEKHULU: It is so.

MS MTANGA: Is it not true that at that time there were fights going on in Nqutu at the time you went to attack the Langa family?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, it is not true. Even though there were faction fights I had no idea about them because I was residing in Johannesburg at the time.

MS MTANGA: You said Mr Sikakane told you that Langa belonged to the ANC. Did he tell you which branch of the ANC did Langa belong?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, he didn't tell me that.

MS MTANGA: Where there other incidents where your group of IFP people were in conflict with the ANC people besides Mr Langa?

MR CEBEKHULU: No there were not.

MS MTANGA: Amongst the people who came from Nqutu besides Mr Langa, who else was an ANC member according to your knowledge?

MR CEBEKHULU: Nshlomoshle, Bonganeni and others. There were many.

MS MTANGA: Did you intend to kill all of them?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, we intended to.

MS MTANGA: Do you know of any faction fights back in Nqutu that took place in 1989?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, I do not remember.

ADV SANDI: Do you know any faction fights at Nqutu before 1989?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes there were but I didn't know about them because I was residing in Johannesburg, I was not residing back home.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Mtanga, hasn't the date been corrected to be 1985 and not 1989? The date of the incident?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, that's for the first incident where they killed an unknown Xhosa man.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, my mistake. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you. Mr Cebekhulu, you're saying to this Committee even though you're from Nqutu and even though you went home to Nqutu you didn't know of any faction fights that took place at your own home? Is that what you're telling the Committee?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct, that's what I'm saying.

MS MTANGA: I'm putting it to you, Mr Cebekhulu, that Mr Langa will testify that the reason that you came to attack them, he and his family was because of the faction fights that were taking place in Nqutu. What do you say to this?

MR CEBEKHULU: I wouldn't be able to dispute that but I personally, I was not involved in faction fights in Nqutu.

MS MTANGA: And secondly, that he belonged to a different group that you and Sikakane were fighting back at home. What do you say to this?

MR CEBEKHULU: I was never involved in any fights or faction fights with Langa back home.

MS MTANGA: You also mentioned that you are applying for an incident where you killed a Xhosa man in 1985? Why did you kill this man, Mr Cebekhulu?

MR CEBEKHULU: This man was one of the people who killed my uncle together with Nshlomoshle and Ganeni.

MS MTANGA: Will I be correct to say that you killed this man because you were avenging the death of your uncle?

MR CEBEKHULU: I killed him because he was a member of the ANC.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu, the ANC did not exist in 1985. What do you say to this?

MR CEBEKHULU: ANC was well and alive even though it was banned.

MS MTANGA: Was it well and alive in Nqutu where you came from because the ANC did not exist in other places in 1985?

MR CEBEKHULU: Even here in Johannesburg the ANC was alive.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying that back in 1985 and in 1989 the ANC was in existence and fighting the IFP, is that your evidence for this Committee?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes and they would hold meetings and we would see them.

MS MTANGA: Did they call themselves ANC?

MR CEBEKHULU: We knew that they were ANC and that they were comrades and sometimes they will publish that we should stay away from work and the reason my uncle was killed was because he didn't obey that.

MS MTANGA: Who killed your uncle?

MR CEBEKHULU: Nshlomoshle and Ganeni and one Xhosa man.

MS MTANGA: And the other two people, Ganeni and Nshlomoshle, to which organisation did they belong?

MR CEBEKHULU: ANC.

MS MTANGA: And then you also state that the reason that your uncle was killed was because he did not obey their call for what? What is it that he did not obey?

MR CEBEKHULU: He didn't want to stay away from work.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Cebekhulu, would you have killed this deceased, so-called Xhosa person, if he was not pointed out to you as one of the killers of your uncle?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, I wouldn't have.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions from the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Yes, just on the same issue. Would you have killed this person who was said to have killed your uncle if he was not a member of the ANC?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, I wouldn't have.

ADV SANDI: Why?

MR CEBEKHULU: He wouldn't have done anything wrong.

ADV SANDI: Yes but he would have killed your uncle?

MR CEBEKHULU: I was going to report him to the Police if he wasn't an ANC member.

ADV SANDI: Where were you, just tell us, how did it come about that your uncle was attacked? Was he attacked at home, in the street, where was this?

MR CEBEKHULU: He was attacked behind the company where he was working, in the building behind.

ADV SANDI: My understanding is that in those days any person who did not adhere to campaigns to stay away from work would have been attacked regardless of the political organisation such a person belonged to?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, it happened that way.

ADV SANDI: Yes, if your uncle had refused to stay away from work and this was this campaign by political organisations that people should not go to work, he would have been attacked even if he was not a member of any organisation, but not necessarily because he was IFP. Do you agree?

MR CEBEKHULU: Yes I do agree with you.

ADV SANDI: When Sikakane came to you and said he - now this is about the second incident, and said he had been attacked, had he sustained any physical injuries?

MR CEBEKHULU: He escaped any injuries.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, no further questions.

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just confirm one other thing in regard to the other incident? There was a male killed and a female was shot in the face. Are those people known to you at all?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, I don't know them at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?

Oh, Advocate Sandi?

ADV SANDI: I want to ask him about the firearms.

Where did these firearms come from?

MR CEBEKHULU: We were buying them in the hostels.

ADV SANDI: But if you were doing all those things on behalf of the IFP why did you not ask the IFP to supply you with firearms?

MR CEBEKHULU: We collected money among ourselves and bought those firearms.

ADV SANDI: Now when you say Sikakane was a member of the IFP, can you explain that? Was he a card carrying member of the IFP or did he say he was a member of the IFP?

MR CEBEKHULU: I've never seen his card but I know that he told us many times that we were working together as members of IFP.

ADV SANDI: Before you went to the house where you attacked Langa and others, you first went to the hostel. Why did you first go to the hostel?

MR CEBEKHULU: We went to fetch firearms, that's where Sikakane was residing in that hostel.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just for following on that question, did you and your colleagues had anything to drink before you went on this attack of the Langa household?

MR CEBEKHULU: No, we didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: There's an indication on one of these statements before us deposed to by a policeman. It says that you were all under the influence of liquor. What is your comment on that?

MR CEBEKHULU: I personally didn't have anything to drink.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Cebekhulu, you're excused. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed the case, there are no witnesses on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen.

_____________________________________________________ALPHEUS MANDLAGASI LANGA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, may I be allowed to just clear up some small thing with Mr ...(inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Langa, I would like to show you an affidavit that you made to the Police on this incident of the 8th October 1989 and I would like you to confirm whether you recall making this affidavit to the Police. Chairperson, that would be the hand-written statement, it's on page 33 and the typed one is on page 31 of the bundle.

Mr Langa, do you know this applicant, Mr Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Mr Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: We are neighbours back home.

MS MTANGA: When you say back home do you mean Nqutu, back home at Nqutu?

MR LANGA: Yes I'm referring to Nqutu.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Sikakane whom he has referred to as the person who ordered him to come and attack you at your house? Do you know this Sikakane that he is referring to?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Sikakane?

MR LANGA: Sikakane also he is my neighbour back home at Nqutu.

MS MTANGA: Is this - the first name of this Sikakane is he Ngalelo?

MR LANGA: Ngalelo.

MS MTANGA: Sikakane, that's the person we're talking about?

MR LANGA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu has testified that the reason that you were attacked on the 8th October was because of your involvement as an ANC member in the killing of his two relatives. Do you have any knowledge of the killings of Sikakane's two relatives?

MR LANGA: No, no idea at all.

MS MTANGA: You did indicate that you all come from Nqutu. Are you saying to this Committee you heard nothing about the death of the relatives of Ngalelo Sikakane that took place just before you were attacked?

MR LANGA: I only know Mr Sikakane and his mother because back home we are neighbours and I don't know of any two relatives which he lost.

MS MTANGA: Do you know of any incident where Mr Sikakane himself was attacked near his place of work?

MR LANGA: No.

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa, in 1989 or just before this incident, did you belong to any political organisation? If so, what organisation was that?

MR LANGA: No, at the time I was not a member. I only became a member of a political organisation just towards the elections.

MS MTANGA: Did you associate with any people who were then regarded as comrades, that is in 1989?

MR LANGA: No, I wasn't.

ADV SANDI: Did you belong to any trade union at work?

MR LANGA: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Did you belong to any trade union at work?

MR LANGA: Yes I was a member of COSATU at work.

MS MTANGA: Was there an incident at work or a work related incident where your union, that is COSATU, was in confrontation with Sikakane or any member of his family?

MR LANGA: No.

MS MTANGA: Where did you work at that time?

MR LANGA: I was working in Wellington at a cementation in Boksburg.

MS MTANGA: And where did Umgalalo Sikakane work at that time?

MR LANGA: Even though I'm not certain but I do not know that he was working in a certain firm even though I've no idea what that firm was doing.

MS MTANGA: Did you at that time know where Mr Sikakane lived in Vosloorus? Did you know where he stayed at that time?

MR LANGA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Where did he stay?

MR LANGA: In a hostel which was predominantly Zulu. I used to see him there.

MS MTANGA: How far was this hostel from your house?

MR LANGA: I'm just estimating it as six kilometres. It can be more or less.

MS MTANGA: You say you used to see Mr Sikakane around. At the time you saw each other did you chat with him? Were you on a friendly basis with him, with Mr Sikakane?

MR LANGA: Yes we were and then later there were faction fights back home.

MS MTANGA: When did these faction fights come to your attention? Was it just before the incident or was it earlier, in early 1989?

MR LANGA: These faction fights took place in 1989 and then they came and they started fighting or spreading these fights here in Johannesburg.

MS MTANGA: Do you know what was the cause of these faction fights?

MR LANGA: No, I do not know. All I know is that they were fighting and since they also knew me, probably that's why I was targeted as an enemy as well.

MS MTANGA: You said even though you - am I correct to say that even though you came from Nqutu, you actually had a house in Johannesburg at Vosloorus, you didn't stay at Nqutu?

MR LANGA: I was working here in Johannesburg. My mother was in Nqutu and we also had a house back home where my mother was residing.

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa, I just want to draw your attention to an affidavit made by a policeman, a Constable Khumalo. Do you know this constable who was involved in this case at the time that took place at your house? Do you know Khumalo?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Khumalo?

MR LANGA: He is an SAP in Vosloorus.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware or are you aware now that he also comes from Nqutu?

MR LANGA: Yes because he was my school mate as well.

MS MTANGA: In his affidavit, I will read it from paragraph 4, page 16. I want you to comment as to whether do you know of the facts he has deposed to. He stated that:

You've already indicated that you know nothing about this incident, am I correct? You know nothing about the brothers of Sikakane who died?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MS MTANGA: He went on to state that Ngalelo and his friends now are forcing the community of Hesakius Sikakane to go and fight in revenge of Ngalelo's brothers. Do you know about this, that Sikakane was organising people to go and revenge the killing of his brothers? Do you know about that?

MR LANGA: No.

MS MTANGA: You didn't know about it?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know anything.

MS MTANGA: Did you know about any plot to kill anyone who refused to participate in the revenge attacks?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MS MTANGA: Did you subsequently learn why you were attacked by Sikakane?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know why I was attacked.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I thought you said at that time you thought you were attacked because you also came from Nqutu and there were these problems at Nqutu, factions fights and all that?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may just correct something? I think he answered my question incorrectly. He thought I was referring to the attack on the Sikakanes. So his response was he doesn't know who attacked them, not why they were attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you repeat the question so that he understands it. You want to hear from him why he thinks he was the victim, possible victim?

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa, I want to know why were you - do you finally know why were you personally attacked in 1989 by Sikakane and his friends?

MR LANGA: I do not know, that is why I need to know this from the applicant.

MS MTANGA: Earlier on you indicated that the only reason you knew of was that there were faction fights back at home in Nqutu?

MR LANGA: What I've said here it's my speculation and what I've heard from other people but I don't know it for a fact.

MS MTANGA: Are you able to tell the Committee what faction groups were fighting? Why would you have been attacked by them or did you belong to a faction group that was different from them and how would you become a victim of the attack? Was it because of your affiliation at home or the area that you lived in? Why would they consider you an enemy?

MR LANGA: I wasn't one of the group members.

MS MTANGA: Did you belong to a faction that back at home would have been targeted by the Sikakanes?

MR LANGA: Yes it may have happened that way because we were in one area back home.

MS MTANGA: Did you know at that time which groups were fighting back at Nqutu?

MR LANGA: The people who were fighting targeted those who didn't want to be involved in the fights.

MS MTANGA: So were you one of the people who refused to be involved in the faction fights?

MR LANGA: Yes, I didn't want to get involved because I had no idea why they were fighting. In fact even Mr Cebekhulu was not my enemy.

ADV BOSMAN: Who asked you to get involved in the fighting here in Johannesburg?

MR LANGA: I didn't quite follow your question, would you please repeat it for me?

ADV BOSMAN: You said that they wanted you to participate in the fighting, in the faction fighting. Now who told you to participate in the faction fighting and who did you tell you will not participate in the faction fighting?

MR LANGA: Cebekhulu and his group.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Cebekhulu personally, is this - I can't pronounce the name, Zwelakhe, did he tell you to get involved?

MR LANGA: Yes it is so.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Ms Mtanga, you may proceed.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you know Madoda Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: Do you know if in 1989 he belonged to any political organisation?

MR LANGA: No, there were no political organisations in the area.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Madoda Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: He was also targeted by these people. They wanted to kill him.

MS MTANGA: When you say he was targeted by these people you're referring to Sikakane and his group, Ngalelo Sikakane and his group, am I correct?

MR LANGA: Yes, they wanted to kill Madoda.

MS MTANGA: Do you know why they wanted to kill him?

MR LANGA: Just like myself, there's no valid reason except to say he didn't want to participate in these faction fights.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Langa, the person that got killed in your house, who was he? Was he living with you, was he visiting? How did he get onto the scene?

MR LANGA: He was my friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come to visit you?

MR LANGA: He usually came to visit me because we were also working together.

CHAIRPERSON: And the lady that got shot in the face, did she live there or how did she land up on the scene?

MR LANGA: She was my neighbour, she came to visit me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Langa, you say that you were a member of COSATU at work. Did you have any position at this union?

MR LANGA: No, I didn't.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you attend meetings of the union?

MR LANGA: I attended meetings inside the firm not outside the firm.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the applicant, Mr Cebekhulu, here today, before this incident in 1989, did you have any problems with him back home regarding faction fights, that he personally was involved in any faction fight?

MR LANGA: There were fights back home and since I was not participating in those fights I didn't think that I had an enemy.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You lived here in Vosloorus. Is it correct you didn't really know what all the fights were about in your homeland, you didn't know what sort of faction fights were going on there?

MR LANGA: The only information which I could acquire was through telephone when I was contacting my mother and my mother will tell me that there were faction fights.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Anything else from the Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: When did you first come to Johannesburg, Mr Langa?

MR LANGA: Somewhere in 1985.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you came to Johannesburg had the faction fighting been going on in Nqutu?

MR LANGA: No, it was before.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever talk about your COSATA membership with Ngalelo?

MR LANGA: No, we never discussed it at all.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he know that you were a member of COSATU?

MR LANGA: No, he didn't know that. Ngalelo is also my uncle even though I don't know why I was targeted to be killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did he work?

MR LANGA: He was working in Boksburg even though I do not know the company he was working in.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know whether he was a trade union member?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you know if he belonged to any political organisation, Ngalelo?

MR LANGA: I really don't know.

ADV SANDI: When he came to ask you to be involved in the faction fights that were taking place back at home did he tell you why he was asking you to do so?

MR LANGA: I am saying this because there are numerous others who were staying here. Many people were fleeing our home town because they didn't want to get involved in the faction fights.

ADV SANDI: Yes but I thought you said he was asking you to be involved in the faction fights?

MR LANGA: No, I did not say that.

ADV SANDI: Who was this person who was asking you to be involved in the faction fights?

MR LANGA: I was never informed that I should go and participate in the faction fights.

ADV SANDI: Your standpoint about these faction fights, did you convey that to anyone the fact that you were not interested to take part in these faction fights. Did you tell anyone about that?

MR LANGA: No. No, I did not tell anyone.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

Mr Langa, I just want to clear up something. Earlier on in your testimony you indicated that the reason, the only reason that you could have been attacked by Sikakane and his group was because you refused to involve yourself in the fight, is that not correct?

MR LANGA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: You further on said that even Madoda Cebekhulu had the same problem with the Sikakanes, he had refused to participate in the fights, is that correct?

MR LANGA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: That is the reason why they wanted to kill you?

MR LANGA: That is correct, I assume so because I was not part of these factions.

MS MTANGA: And then one last question, Mr Langa, the group that came to your house to attack you on that day, did all those people come from Nqutu? Did you recognise them as people who were all coming from Nqutu? That is your home boys?

MR LANGA: Two of them who entered, Ngalelo and his son, I think Cebekhulu then came and they said I should come outside and talk to them. I realised that they were going to kill me and then I went to the bedroom.

MS MTANGA: So there were three people who came into your house that you saw were people from Nqutu? It's people you knew back from home?

MR LANGA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: This incident, did you ever see the applicant around at Vosloorus?

MR LANGA: No, I saw him the last time when he came to shoot.

ADV SANDI: How would you describe the relationship between yourself and the applicant, were you on friendly terms?

MR LANGA: It's very difficult to say whether I would forgive him or not because he still maintains that the shooting was politically motivated yet that is not the case. These people were just involved in faction fighting and not anything political and it therefore becomes very difficult for me to say I can forgive him because should he be granted amnesty he might come after me.

ADV SANDI: I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not talking about forgiving the applicant and all that but I'm talking about 1989. Were you on friendly terms with him, the applicant?

MR LANGA: Are you saying before the fights? Yes before the faction fights we were on speaking terms.

ADV SANDI: When the faction fights started back at home were you still on speaking terms with the applicant?

MR LANGA: You see I was working, I was employed, but then there were people who were coming from home with a mission to kill.

ADV SANDI: Did you know him to be a member or supporter of the IFP, that is the applicant?

MR LANGA: No I did not know that.

ADV SANDI: Would you dispute that if he says he was a member of the IFP?

MR LANGA: I would not because he is saying what he knows, what he feels.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Langa, thank you, you are excused. Is that the case?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, that's my case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, on the merits?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. It's submitted on behalf of the applicant that his application complies with all the requirements in terms of the Act. The applicant made full disclosure of all the facts. He took full responsibility for the deeds he committed. He told the Committee how he killed the first Xhosa man and the reasons therefore. It seems to be partly revenge and the other reason that he's given is that that man was pointed out amongst the deceased as well as to others, were pointed out to him at Score Metals and he was also told by his uncle and Mr Khumba that those people were members of the ANC.

As far as the second incident is concerned, he testified that the people or the house as such was pointed out to him by Mr Sikakane who indicated that all the people who resided in that house were ANC members. The reason he was given to go for the attack was the fact that Mr Sikakane was attacked before by a group of people. The applicant conceded and said it might very well be that in the end it turned out to have something to do with a faction fight but he said that he didn't know about it. Even if it could have been the position he was told that it was to do with the ANC/IFP fight. It is clear from this last witness who was also residing in Gauteng that people here didn't necessarily know what all the fights back home were about and that is probably as far as I can take it and request the Honourable Committee to grant the applicant amnesty. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mtanga, any submissions?

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, I wish to oppose this application on the grounds that there was no political motive on the side of the applicant. Firstly, in respect of the incident that took place in Vosloorus at Mr Alpheus Mandlagasi's house, it is my submission that the evidence of Mr Alpheus Langa himself clearly shows that there was never any political background to this incident. This is also born by the fact a shown in the judgement where the Honourable Judge indicated that the source of the attack at the Langa house was the impis or the faction fights back at home at Nqutu.

Secondly, Chairperson, I would also like to refer the Committee to the statement made by a policeman, Constable Khumalo, who was not involved in this incident, who was not a victim in this incident but who also happened to come from Nqutu where the faction fights were taking place and in his statement he does refer to the fact that Sikakane had indeed lost two of his brothers and there was nothing political about the killing, no evidence was given about the reasons for the killing of the Sikakane brothers except that the attacks that were carrying on at the time, the first on which took place at Langa and another attack that took place on Matote Kulukulu where as a result of these two refusing to participate in the revenge attacks that Sikakane was organising against people who had killed his brothers.

Chairperson, these are the facts that I would like the Committee to consider as the source of this attack on the Langa family, that Mr Langa refused to participate in the revenge attacks against whoever had killed the Sikakane brothers.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Mtanga, if a person refuses something then surely there must have been some request? Now at first Mr Langa said yes, he was requested by Mkalewa to participate but afterwards he emphatically denied that anybody had ever requested him and here he was in Johannesburg, far removed from Nqutu. Nobody asked him to participate and yet he said he refused to. How do you reconcile that?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I understand the difficulty but it seems to me on the facts of this case that when these faction fights took place back at home or when such faction fights took place, it would be expected of the members from the community from those from Nqutu to participate and it was based on this expectation that he was attacked. The failure by him to participate in the attacks rendered him a victim to Sikakane and his group.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you then submitting, let's assume that he misunderstood my question although I repeated it twice, what do you suggest, why was a Xhosa man killed, he had nothing to do with faction fighting?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I didn't get your last question?

ADV BOSMAN: Why was he, in the first incident, why was a Xhosa man killed if he had nothing to do with the faction fighting? He couldn't have had anything to do with the faction fighting, he was not a Zulu?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may answer that question, the man that was killed at the Langa house was actually not a Xhosa man, he was a Zulu person coming from Kwa-Zulu Natal, a Mr Buthelezi.

ADV BOSMAN: But I'm referring, we have two incidents here and you say there's no political objective because it had to do with faction fighting. Now that may or may not be so in regard to the second incident at the Langa household but if there is some link between the two incidents, why was the Xhosa man killed? Would you say that you submitted there was no political objective? Why do you say that in respect of the first one and are you saying these two incidents are not related at all?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to submit that the two incidents were not related at all and my submission in respect of the killing of the Xhosa man who was said to have killed the uncle of the applicant is that it's not political because the applicant was revenging his uncle's death and that was his interest in the case and further to that, he clearly indicated that he was never ordered by his organisation, the IFP, to carry out this attack on this person, this unknown Xhosa man that he attacked. It's a decision he took on his own, to revenge his uncle and I specifically asked him, wasn't the reason to revenge and he admitted that, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, to conclude my submissions in respect of the attack on the Langa, I would like the Committee to consider the affidavit made by Mr Khumalo whom I would like to consider an independent witness in this incident even though his evidence is independent, even though we are unable to have him to testify today and on this basis, Chairperson, I would like to persuade the Committee not to grant amnesty to Mr Cebekhulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Ms van der Westhuizen, any reply?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: None, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, that concludes the evidence in this matter. The Panel will take time to consider the matter and to come to a decision when all of the parties with an interest would be notified once the decision is available. So the decision is reserved. We thank you for your assistance Ms van der Westhuizen. If you've got nothing else that you have to do then you would be excused as well.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll take the luncheon adjournment and we'll reconvene at two o'clock. Hopefully the victim in the Pahle matter - is it Pahle matter? Am I mistaken?

MS MTANGA: The Ndlovu matter.

CHAIRPERSON: The Ndlovu matter - would then be available?

MS MTANGA: Yes, they are already available, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, very well. Hopefully Mr Koopedi will also be available?

MS MTANGA: I will endeavour to contact him, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll adjourn.

_____________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: The next that is before us is the application of Fernando Brian Ndlovu, amnesty reference AM5484/97. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The Leader of Evidence is still Ms Mtanga. I'm going to ask the lawyer for the applicant and for the interested parties to place themselves on record. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I'm appearing here on behalf of the applicant, Mr Brian Ndlovu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Vilakazi?

MS VILAKAZI: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Linda Vilakazi, I'm appearing for the family of Majokane, being Mr Habit Majokane and Mrs Lydia Majokane. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. The applicant is before you, we believe we are ready to proceed and before we do that I wish to express my indebtedness to this Committee for accommodating my other commitments today. He is ready to be sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Koopedi. We were told it's in the national interests. Very well, can you just check for us whether you can hear the interpreter over your headset?

MR KOOPEDI: He will testify in English, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he will testify in English? Oh, very well.

FERNANDO BRIAN NDLOVU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Ndlovu, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and this matter involves an incident that occurred in Tembisa during 1985?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: The document I'm showing you - Chairperson, page 1 of your bundle of documents - is this your application form and on page 6 thereof? There is a signature, is that your signature?

MR NDLOVU: Correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you tell this Honourable Committee as to were you a member of a political organisation when this incident occurred?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I've been a member of the ANC and Umkhonto weSizwe the armed wing.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join the ANC?

MR NDLOVU: In 1994 - sorry, 1984.

MR KOOPEDI: 1984. And perhaps whilst we are on dates, Chairperson, I would want to confirm in fact that the date that appears on page 2, paragraph 9(a)ii should actually be 1985 and may I confirm the applicant? Is it correct, you have stated in your application form that this occurred in February 1995, is it correct that you actually wanted to mention 1985?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now during 1985, February 1985, you being a member of the ANC. Where were you based? Where were you?

MR NDLOVU: I was based in Botswana and I was infiltrated back in the country in February, towards the end of February and I was actually ordered to accomplish a mission by my commander who was based in Botswana also.

MR KOOPEDI: Who was your commander?

MR NDLOVU: Tami Nyeli.

MR KOOPEDI: Tami Nyeli. What was this order that you were given, what were you ordered to do?

MR NDLOVU: Okay, the order was to actually attack Mr Majokane's home who was a councillor at the time.

MR KOOPEDI: How were you to attack this home?

MR NDLOVU: Okay. My instructions were loud and clear that here's a grenade, go and attack Majokane's house.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you told why?

MR NDLOVU: Well the initiative was part of the ongoing mass mobilisation through armed operations.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you proceed to do as you were ordered?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that's what I did.

MR KOOPEDI: Who accompanied you when you executed the order?

MR NDLOVU: ...(inaudible)

MR KOOPEDI: Okay and after accomplishing the mission which you say you were told to throw a handgrenade, after accomplishing the mission what did you do?

MR NDLOVU: I disappeared into hiding.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you go to?

MR NDLOVU: I was operating locally underground and I was out of the township to another township.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you have any opportunity to report to your commander as to what did you do?

MR NDLOVU: Well, according to the instruction I had to report back. I did report that the mission was accomplished but the question of going back to the scene and check was not my duty, it was not part of my instructions.

MR KOOPEDI: Now having said what you've said, do you consider your actions as having been politically motivated?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, it was politically motivated.

MR KOOPEDI: And perhaps can you tell the Committee why do you say it was politically motivated?

MR NDLOVU: Okay, at the time everybody, almost everyone knew that those apartheid structures, be it councillors or any other form of administration were actually targeted by the ANC and the armed wing to actually undermine those structures, to render the country ungovernable, to make sure that there should be a smooth transition to people's power.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you benefit anything material, you financially, at a personal level for having executed this operation?

MR NDLOVU: No, it didn't involve any incentives.

MR KOOPEDI: Having regard to what you have said in your application form, have you complied with the requirement of full disclosure, that is have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth about all the relevant facts to this matter?

MR NDLOVU: Yes to the best of my knowledge I think I've covered almost everything.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, that would be the evidence-in-chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Vilakazi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Ndlovu, you have just said that you have disclosed everything. Can you explain to this hearing the relationship between yourself and the family of Majokane?

MR NDLOVU: I think I knew them very well. I knew Mr Majokane personally though I was a kid basically so we had a different relationship. But with Ms Majokane, she was my teacher at school. I also had a very good relationship with their kids. So that was the level of our relationship.

MS VILAKAZI: Now with that kind of knowledge that you had, you should have known the role that Mr Majokane also played in the community, not so?

MR NDLOVU: What are you referring to?

MS VILAKAZI: The fact that he was assisting families who were to be evicted from their houses, that he was opposed to that?

MR NDLOVU: Well I should say that I was acting under instructions on number one. When number two, I was not aware of the availability of that information. Even if that information was available it was not my call, I was acting under orders.

MS VILAKAZI: Were there no other ways of trying to dissuade Mr Majokane from participating other than that handgrenade attack on the house?

MR NDLOVU: Well, like I said initially it was an order, a military order.

MS VILAKAZI: Now how do you feel about having caused harm to the family?

MR NDLOVU: Okay ...(intervention)

MS VILAKAZI: Especially being the family that you knew that well?

MR NDLOVU: Well, the same question could be asked to me, what if it was your dad? If indeed he is my dad, it's not a good thing, I'm not proud of seeing somebody hurt but the reality is I was acting under instructions, it had to be done.

MS VILAKAZI: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Just one question, Chairperson.

Mr Ndlovu, when you got your instructions were you told what was the intention? Was the intention just to throw the handgrenade and kill people or to just throw it?

MR NDLOVU: Okay. My answer will be twofold. One, carrying an order you do what you're told but the intention was not to kill but there was a likelihood that somebody could actually die, knowing the kind weapon that I've used.

MS MTANGA: How were you going to ensure that no one was killed?

MR NDLOVU: I was not going to ensure when a person gets killed or not. The point I'm trying to make here, knowing the nature or the type of weapon that I used, somebody could have died but that was not the intention to kill a person.

MS MTANGA: So it wasn't really made clear to you whether you were there to kill or not in your instructions, are you saying that?

MR NDLOVU: Okay, yes the instruction was not to go and kill but I'm saying that with that kind of weapons somebody could have died including myself if I didn't handle it properly, I could have actually died myself.

MS MTANGA: Okay, I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Panel, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: One question. Did you have anything to do with the identification of the victim or didn't you identify him as a target?

MR NDLOVU: Okay, like I said my answer is always twofold, that I knew them personally so when I was given an instruction actually it clicked directly and I was given an instruction with all the details.

ADV BOSMAN: No, but my question is actually that you have something to do with saying this man is joining the apartheid establishment or was that done by someone else.

MR NDLOVU: I don't know, I was given the instruction to say it is the person that I needed to go and attack.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay fine, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi, any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Anything else on behalf of the applicant?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that would be the applicant's case. We intend calling no other witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Vilakazi, are you going to present anything?

MS VILAKAZI IN ADDRESSES: Thank you Chairperson. I refer the Honourable Panel to the submission by Mr Majokane on pages 15 to 17 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: Specifically I would refer to the hand-written submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: And I wish to correct just two things on that submission. The first being on page 16, paragraph 3, line 3. The line starts with "shrapnel in her right ear". Right should be changed to left.

And the next paragraph, in the second line, starting with "feel himself man enough to tell be" that "be" should be changed to "me".

Those are the corrections, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VILAKAZI: I'll submit that the Committee should accept the submission as the evidence on behalf of the Majokane family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you're not going to present any viva voce evidence?

MS VILAKAZI: No viva voce evidence except that there's a special request by Mr Majokane to address the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps we should do it straight away before I go to Ms Mtanga. Yes, can you just give him access to

the microphone?

Mr Majokane, I'm told by Advocate Vilakazi that you wanted to say something? You don't want to give evidence under oath, you simply want to address or talk to the applicant?

MR MAJOKANE: Chairperson, I don't want to give evidence under oath, I just want to address the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we'll give you that opportunity now.

MR MAJOKANE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Ndlovu, I want to thank you for having come forward with this matter, especially that it was never known that it was you who threw the handgrenade at my house and you were never charged but you ...(indistinct) upon yourself to come forward and reveal that it was you who threw the handgrenade at my house fifteen years ago and ask for amnesty. I also do take into consideration the fact that you feel at the moment that it was not a good act that you had committed. Conceivably the fact that you knew the family well and the relationship that was there between me and especially your parents because as you rightfully said you were just a kid at the time and I want to thank you for that but I also want to further say, my family and I forgive you for what you have done and we pray that God should forgive you as well for the act that you had committed. I consider the fact that you say that you had received an instruction and I also look back fifteen years ago, you were only about 19/20 years. Maybe you didn't have much resistance to your commanders or you couldn't really weigh and consider the facts, your relationship with my family and the command you were getting from your commanders. So let's consider it water under the bridge. I thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majokane, it's a pleasure. Does that conclude what you wanted to?

MS VILAKAZI: That will be all on behalf of the victims, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga, are you presenting any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, perhaps before I make my submission there is a request by the applicant to respond to what the victim has said. It may be appropriate that I ask the Chair to allow me to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no very well. Let us do that. Mr Ndlovu?

MR NDLOVU: I'd like to thank Mr Majokane, not only him as he said, including the family, that they're not angry. It was part f a process and I say thanks to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: If I may, Chairperson, make a very brief submission. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it is my very brief submission that the applicant before you here has complied with the requirements of the Act for the granting of amnesty in that it's my submission that he has complied with the requisite of full disclosure. This is an applicant that came forward on his own. This is an applicant who was not in prison or threatened by imminent arrest. There was no pressure on him to come forward, no one outside certain circles had information that he had in fact thrown this grenade and I further wish to submit that as it has appeared from the evidence and the version of the applicant, the bundle of documents before us, or before you rather, there was nothing material or financially that was gained by this applicant after having taken or participated in this operation.

And I would wish to submit finally that as the evidence indicated the action was politically motivated and further that this applicant more than anything else acted on instructions from his superiors. I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Vilakazi, have you got anything that you want to put on record?

MS VILAKAZI: Honourable Chairperson, the submission on behalf of the family of Majokane would be that as it is already on record that the application is not opposed and we'll leave it to the Panel to decide whether the applicant qualifies for amnesty, but that the family should be considered, declared victims, in terms of Section 22 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No submission Chairperson, I wish to leave this matter in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Yes, I can't really think of any reason why you would want to respond, but it's alright.

MR KOOPEDI: No response, Chairperson, I'm indebted to my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, well that concludes the matter. We will prepare a decision in the matter and we'll make it available as soon as circumstances permit. So we'll reserve the decision in the matter and take the opportunity to thank the legal representatives for their assistance. Mr Koopedi, Ms Vilakazi and also Mr Majokane, we thank you. We have noted your attitude and we have noted the requests that were put to us by Ms Vilakazi and we will respond to that appropriately but thank you for having attended and for your attitude. And of course Ms Mtanga as well, thank you very much.

Yes, Ms Mtanga, the other matters, the Patsha matter that is not proceeding, the applicant is deceased I'm told in that matter so it's no longer on the roll?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, that's the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: And that should take care of what was on the roll then for today?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Well, under those circumstances we are going to adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene. Ms Mtanga, just give me an indication how many matters are on the roll for tomorrow?

MS MTANGA: We have two matters, Chairperson. The first one involves four applicants, that is Kgoete and three other people and then the second one it's the Selepi matter, which is an SDU application. So we've got two for tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, would it not place unnecessary pressure on us if we were to start at 9.30?

MS MTANGA: 9.30 will be fine, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will it be okay with you?

MS MTANGA: Yes it will be fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. We'll then adjourn the proceedings and we'll reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9.30.