CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, you had just been asking about money taken from the shebeen and money they got for petrol.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on. You said you had other matters you're now going to carry on with.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, I proceed now with the Da Gama incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you remind the applicant he's still under his former oath.

INTERPRETER: You did not ask this question Sir, so he must be asked a question.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not asking a question, will you remind him that he is still under his former oath.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: (s.u.o.)

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Ncamazana, at the Da Gama incident - if I understand you evidence, was the intention to have the bus in a certain position in order to shoot at the passengers alternatively to fire a rifle grenade at the bus?

MR NCAMAZANA: Our intention was to shoot it with the rifle grenade.

MR PRIOR: Did anyone have hand grenades with them during that operation?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, there was one.

MR PRIOR: Yes, because I saw a photograph, I don't have it with me. There was a hand grenade found near the Honda Ballade after the operation. Was the intention to throw that hand grenade into the bus?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MR PRIOR: Right. And is it so that as chance would have it the bus turned into Da Gama premises and you were unable to effectively carry out that attack?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it was chance was it Mr Prior, that was where the bus always went. They were a little bit too late to carry out their attack.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No suggestion as I understand it, that the bus took a different course this morning.

MR PRIOR: As chance would have it the bus turned and instead of stopping for traffic from the approach, they turned in with the following vehicle and what I'm trying to suggest to the witness is that the operation in that respect failed because they weren't able to effectively shoot at the bus as they intended. I think he's answered that Mr Chairman.

When the Da Gama attack was planned, was the premises - was any observation kept, was any reconnoitring done by your unit before this day?

MR NCAMAZANA: We knew the whole method of our attack.

MR PRIOR: Did you also know that the Da Gama textile factory also had security on the premises?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I did not know about that, I do not know about those I was walking with.

MR PRIOR: From that do I understand that there was no discussion amongst yourselves in the unit that there was possibly risks to your own safety should the Da Gama bus be attacked?

MR NCAMAZANA: We never discussed such a matter.

MR PRIOR: Did anyone perhaps ask was there any risk to life, your own life, because of possible security arrangement that Da Gama had or was that not part of the planning or preparation?

MR NCAMAZANA: I do not remember whether there was such a person because our plans were to shoot at it with a rifle grenade in motion that time without us having to stop first and shoot at it. We were supposed to shoot at it and leave afterwards, before it turned and go into the gate.

MR PRIOR: Alright.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, can I just get some clarity on some matter?

Mr Ncamazana, you say that you discussed the whole method of your attack.

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS GCABASHE: Where did this discussion take place?

MR NCAMAZANA: At the home of Africa Tjobane.

MS GCABASHE: Can you recall some of the detail of these discussions, what exactly did you discuss?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember what we discussed exactly that day, as to the direct words that were used at the time but our intention was to attack with a rifle grenade.

MS GCABASHE: But who led the discussions, who had all the information about the route, about the number of people, about which side did the attacking from?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was the unit commander.

MS GCABASHE: Had any of this detail been discussed with Jimmy Jones who was the person who had authorised or asked you to go on this mission?

MR NCAMAZANA: What we got from him was the instruction that we must go and attack that bus.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the unit commander at the time?

MR NCAMAZANA: The late Africa TNT.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, just so we're clear about this, what actually went wrong was that a vehicle turned in front of your vehicle between you and the bus making it impossible for you to then shoot at the bus with your grenade, that's why you had to work out an alternative strategy and then an argument ensued about what that strategy should be, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MR LAX: What happened?

MR NCAMAZANA: When we were there we were still waiting for the bus, for it to come, it was on its way. The late Africa Kid said I must using the rifle grenade against the bus then simply use the rifles. When the bus approached, them required to shoot they did not shoot. It became evident that they were afraid.

ADV SANDI: What was the normal practice Mr Ncamazana, when an operation of this nature is about to be carried out? Did you have a practice of discussing specific questions in regard to preparation?

MR NCAMAZANA: What methods or ways are you talking about?

ADV SANDI: You did not have a practice amongst yourselves of discussing specific issues before you carry out the operation with the purpose of ensuring that such an operation becomes a success, you just go out there to carry out the operation without any discussion whatsoever?

MR NCAMAZANA: We used to have discussions.

ADV SANDI: Normally what would you discuss as part of the preparation to carry out the operation?

MR NCAMAZANA: We discussed the method of attack and the routes we were supposed to use from that target.

ADV SANDI: I thought I heard you saying to my colleague here you do not recall the discussion you had, but that is not the issue. You can carry on Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Was it not part of the planning of the operation how to safely leave the scene, in other words to safely get away from the scene of the operation?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, could you just follow up. In reply to my question he started telling us what actually happened, he disagreed with what I put to him. Can we just finish that off before we lose that thread? Would you do it please?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman. Sorry, regarding the discussions prior to the operation?

MR LAX: No, he was - perhaps finish what you're doing with the discussion about that but then let's just pick up. He ended up by saying they were afraid, they didn't shoot. He didn't say what happened after that. Sorry, if we just don't lose that thread and we'll come back to it just now and you carry on with the discussion issue.

MR PRIOR: Maybe he can just pick up from that.

You said you were afraid about shooting in that situation.

MR LAX: Let me recap, let me recap.

I put to you what I understood had gone wrong with the operation and you disagreed with that, you then started saying that at some point Kid said you must not use the rifle grenade, that instead you must use the rifles, you remember that?

MR NCAMAZANA: I remember it.

MR LAX: You said that the bus approached and it was time to use the rifles but they were afraid to use the rifles at that point. We were then interrupted in your evidence. Can you just carry on from there and tell us what then happened?

MR NCAMAZANA: When they were required to shoot with the rifles they did not comply because it became evident that they were afraid, they still insisted that I must shoot with the rifle grenade as was initially discussed. I told them: "No, I cannot use this rifle grenade because it is too close to me", the bus that is, "how can I shoot at the bus when it is this close to me"?

MR LAX: What were you afraid of?

MR NCAMAZANA: I was not afraid, they were the people who were afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have just told us you said you could not use the rifle grenade because you were too close, you said that not they.

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't you use it?

MR NCAMAZANA: Because of the distance I could not use that rifle grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: Had your vehicle pulled up alongside the bus then?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was moving parallel to the bus, next to the bus. I was at the side near the bus inside our car.

MR LAX: Was the problem - there are two possible problems, one is that the grenade wouldn't work at such a short distance, the other is that the blast might blow you up as well, what were you afraid of?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was because it would not work, that rifle grenade would not work that I was supposed to use there.

MR PRIOR: As I understood your evidence the plan was to use the rifle grenade before you even got to Da Gama. My difficulty is, at what stage were you or how were you going to use the rifle grenade in any event? What was the plan, how were you going to shoot the rifle grenade in those circumstances? That is now before the discussions and the argument about being too close and so on. What was the plan about the rifle grenade?

MR NCAMAZANA: Our plan was when the bus approaches our driver would precede the bus and I would appear through the window of the car and shoot at the bus.

MR PRIOR: From within the car? So in other words you wouldn't get out of the car to fire the grenade?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I would not be going outside of the car.

MR PRIOR: You would shoot at the bus as the bus approached your vehicle or as the bus drew alongside your vehicle?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, he said they would go in front of the vehicle, they would precede the vehicle and they would fire back at the bus, if I understand him correctly. Just so that it's clear there.

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR PRIOR: It seems from your evidence that you were unaware that this vehicle that came inbetween - sorry, let me maybe establish that. The vehicle that came inbetween the bus and your vehicle, is it correct there was a security officer in that vehicle who began shooting at your vehicle after you people starting shooting, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: And you were unaware of that situation, that there was a security officer following the bus on that occasion?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I was not aware.

MR PRIOR: And just to perhaps round off the bus as far as I am concerned, will you agree that the bus was full? I have information that there were 22 persons inside the bus. I know you wouldn't know the exact number but was that bus, the personnel carrier of Da Gama Textiles, full of passengers as you saw it?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot disagree when you say there was a number of people, whatever the number was.

MR PRIOR: Do you know whether the bus was struck at all by bullets from your firearms, that is your unit's firearms?

MR NCAMAZANA: I do not know, I cannot lie to you.

MR PRIOR: Alright. Now during the firefight that you described there was shooting to and fro, TNT and Kid were injured, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: I refer to paragraph 11.14 in your affidavit at page 58(a) of the bundle of documents. You said:

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question please?

MR PRIOR: Let me repeat it:

MR NCAMAZANA: That I heard from him after he was released from prison because they were arrested in Transkei.

MR PRIOR: Sorry? Was that only after this shooting and not at the time of the shooting?

MR NCAMAZANA: That I only heard perhaps a month after the shooting occurred.

MR PRIOR: And who did you hear that from?

MR NCAMAZANA: Through Africa Gobane.

MR PRIOR: So it didn't - sorry, I just get the impression from your affidavit that it happened in that sequence:

that was the preceding paragraph and then:

and then you said in the following paragraph"

So it's not as it appears in the affidavit, that's incorrect?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: Well let me just question you on that, was that also part of the plan, that if anyone of your unit were injured that his colleague or comrade would then kill him or shoot him?

MR NCAMAZANA: When we go out on a mission and I get injured and it is evident that I cannot retreat properly or fight back it is necessary that my own comrade must finish me off if I cannot kill myself because when the police arrest me they'll take me to hospital I'll be charge there and then they will torture me and then the information will be revealed, all of it.

MR PRIOR: Mr Ncamazana, the instruction or the order to attack Da Gama Textiles or the personnel bus, that never came from Jimmy Jones specifically, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: It came from him.

MR PRIOR: Because I refer to paragraph 13.3 of your affidavit at page 58 of the paginated bundle. You were talking about after the Highgate incident where you shot the rifle grenade, you had then gone to NU6 at Mdantsane and there you had left the Sierra motor vehicle and there you said:

...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, what page reference have you referred us to, we're a bit puzzled here?

MR PRIOR: 58 of the paginated bundle, page 58 of the paginated papers.

You then said you went to a house of a friend Sipho Fuchane and in paragraph 11.3 you said:

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you'd better read paragraph 10.2 first Mr Prior, on page 55 or 10.1 on page 54.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Do I understand from 11.3 is that you at that stage discussed how the Da Gama attack was to take place?

MR NCAMAZANA: Where at are we planning?

MR PRIOR: I'd like you to look at the photographs of the Da Gama scene.

May they just be marked Exhibit D. Mr Chairman, you will notice that the - I've only put up 6 photographs, sorry 8 photographs, sorry 7 photographs and the key refers to far more points than - because there were substantially more photographs but the main ones are the aerial photographs of the road outside Da Gama and the position where Constable Williams was shot, from the police, and the two TNT and Kid's bodies were found. Those are marked at C and D.

Could you look at photographs 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8?

MR LAX: Can we just note for the record Mr Prior, there is no photograph 2.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I noticed that now, there's no photograph 2.

CHAIRPERSON: What exhibit number are we giving to these?

MR PRIOR: Exhibit D Mr Chairman. Can we simply refer to the photographs as D1 in that number or should be number then consecutively?

MR LAX: I think we can leave it as they're already numbered on the sheet but obviously just noting there is no number 2.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Ncamazana, can you look at photograph D1, that is the first photograph. I just simply want to - for your confirmation, do you agree that that depicts the Da Gama factory, the road? If you look at point A there's a white vehicle there, my information is that was the Honda vehicle that you were driving or that you had been using.

CHAIRPERSON: That appears on the index to the photographs.

MR PRIOR: Are you able to orientate yourself as to

that photograph?

MR NCAMAZANA: I can see the car there to which the arrow refers with A and there's a B also.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. Will you turn to photograph D5, which I think is a better one. That is the photograph where you see the factory on your lefthand side and there seems to be a railway line on the right side of the photograph, righthand side. Can you tell the Committee, in which direction did you flee, in other words ...[intervention]

MR NCAMAZANA: The way I used, I crossed the railway line.

MR PRIOR: And did you leave TNT and Kid behind in the vehicle when you left the scene or did they leave the vehicle with you? In other words, in the direction of the railway line?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is they who left us in the car, three of us. I did not see where they ran to.

MR PRIOR: I see.

Mr Chairman, I don't wish to pursue the Da Gama matter any further, I want to come back just briefly to the Bahai matter. I've supplied the Committee and the various representatives with an extract of the criminal record before Mr Justice Liebenberg, from pages 1245 to 1248.

Mr Ncamazana, I'm going to come back to that trial in East London ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Have you supplied copies to other ...[indistinct]

MR PRIOR: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be Exhibit E.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. May I take the opportunity to supply a copy to the translators.

And this was the evidence given by Mr Mbambo, your co-applicant.

Mr Chairman, with the Committee's indulgence, I wish to refer to at least three passages in that extract.

At page 1245 the evidence read as follows or reads as follows, Mbambo said:

and he said:

then at line 10 the questions was asked:

the answer was:

Do you remember that evidence?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie to you, I do not know.

MR PRIOR: He was then asked:

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't asked, this is not his evidence.

MR PRIOR: I understand Mr Chairman. He was a co ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You put to him: "You were then asked".

MR PRIOR: No, I'm referring to the passage Mr Chairman. The question - or should I really put the sense of what was said in the extract?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm merely saying what you put to him was: "You were then asked" and you were starting to read. It was Mbambo who was then asked.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, if I put that to the witness then that was obviously incorrect. I'm referring to what Mbambo said at his trial. I do apologise Mr Chairman.

Can you recall that evidence being given by Mr Mbambo?

MR NCAMAZANA: That's what he said.

MR PRIOR: The next question was asked of Mr Mbambo:

the answer was then:

And at line 25: ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What's his reply? Does he remember that?

MR NCAMAZANA: The answer, his answer in Court or where perhaps?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember this being asked and said in Court? You've told us so far that you didn't remember the first passages, that you did remember Jimmy Jones saying that he was field commander of APLA, now can you tell us whether you remember them telling you about what happened at Mdantsane and them telling him about your presence, why you were amongst them, the reason behind it.

MR LAX: Sorry, it's not him, he wasn't the one who was saying why he was amongst them.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what they said.

MR LAX: This is what Mbambo said.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct] Mbambo's evidence, he's saying what happened. Do you remember Mbambo saying that at your trial and do you remember if it happened?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember that well.

MR LAX: Sorry, there are two questions, he's given one answer. Let's just clarify that.

You don't remember that it happened at the trial, that he said such things but did such things actually happen as far as you can remember? In other words, when you went back to Mdantsane, at least to Jimmy Jones' place in Butterworth, did this conversation take place?

MR NCAMAZANA: What we told him was what he had instructed him, us, that we must bring him along to Butterworth and we just told him that. He is the person who said we must bring him along.

MR LAX: So in fact you don't agree with this evidence or the thrust of this evidence and the emphasis in which it is put here?

MR NCAMAZANA: I do not agree with it.

MS GCABASHE: Can I just ask, has the witness had the opportunity to read this transcript? I mean, are we asking him to recall just from what is being said to him now or has he had the opportunity to try and remember some of this?

MR PRIOR: He's being asked whether he recalls it being said at his trial.

MR LAX: Maybe we should just give him a minute to read through that transcript, see if he can refresh his memory and then we can really in a meaningful way ask these questions.

MR PRIOR: I'm in the Committee's hands, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please explain to the applicant that we are going to adjourn now to give him an opportunity to read the transcript which will refresh his memory of what took place at his trial. He will then be asked questions, not only about what took place at the trial but as to whether he remembers what actually happened at the time when they reported back to Jimmy Jones. We'll now adjourn for a few minutes.

Could you let us know when he is ready?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Collett, has your client had an opportunity of reading those papers?

MS COLLETT: That's correct Mr Chairman, he has.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. I simply propose to put the extract to him and ask for his comment. I don't propose to belabour any point.

Mr Ncamazana, at page 1245 - I'm going to bring you back to sort of from the quotation from line 25. Sorry let me just go back, at line 19:

The evidence is referring to obviously Kid talking to Jimmy Jones:

referring to Mbambo.

And then the question was asked:

Do you remember that being said at the trial?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot disagree if they say so but I cannot remember well.

MR PRIOR: The next portion is from line 25/26, the reply was or the answer was:

That is Kid who is talking about Mbambo.

Do you remember that being said?

MR NCAMAZANA: What I can answer, all that is written on this paper I cannot disagree with that despite me not having any knowledge about it.

MR PRIOR: That seems to make sense, that you'd have taken Mr Mbambo who wasn't a member of APLA at that stage, that you would have taken him along.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, if I might interject here, it's not that he said that he didn't know whether he was a member, that he wasn't he was a member of APLA, he didn't know whether he was a member of APLA at that stage, that was his evidence yesterday.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll leave it, I won't pursue that.

Alright, on the following page 1246 I want to refer to about line 10, the answer as to the question of how Mr Jimmy Jones reacted when he was told about the incident at Mdantsane, that was the church at Mdantsane. The answer was as follows:

Do you remember Jimmy Jones saying that when you went to Butterworth?

MR NCAMAZANA: No such thing was said.

MR PRIOR: And I continue at line 25 onwards: ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying this was not said at the trial or that it was not said at Jimmy Jones' house?

MR NCAMAZANA: This was not said there at commander Jimmy Jones' place, perhaps about it having been spoken at the Court, I cannot disagree there.

MR PRIOR: I continue at line 25/26 onwards:

that is your unit:

referring back to Jimmy Jones:

Let me maybe paraphrase that. By going to Jimmy Jones at Butterworth and explaining what had happened at Bahai Church at Mdantsane, the impression was going to be created that it was Jimmy Jones who had sent the unit or your members and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't you read the next sentence as part, it's part of the passage isn't it?

MR PRIOR: I was going to come to that.

that was cleared up, the actual word was "opelile" being: "it's come to an end" or suspended.

MR NCAMAZANA: Are you now asking whether I agree or disagree with what is written there?

MR PRIOR: Well, do you agree that it was said?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, at Butterworth or at the trial?

MR PRIOR: Obviously it was said at the trial because it's in the transcript of the record, it's obvious. I'm asking, was that in fact true, did that happened? Were those words said by - did Jimmy Jones say that?

MR LAX: Can I just clear this up. Just for the record, he's already said that he can't remember what happened at the trial and so he accepts what is written in this transcript as being a reflection although he can't remember the exact words. So let's not interject every time about where it was. I certainly understand Mr Prior to be asking: "Do you remember this"? He's referring specifically at Butterworth. Let's understand that as the context in which these questions are now being asked. Do you understand?

MR NCAMAZANA: I hear.

MR PRIOR: Yes, my question is, did that happen?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, it did not, no such thing happened.

MR PRIOR: I've no further questions of this witness.

MS GCABASHE: If I might just ask for clarity. You will agree though that Mr Mbambo was with you when you went to report at Jimmy Jones' house after this incident?

MR NCAMAZANA: After we had attacked at the church, going back to the Transkei, when we got to Butterworth he, Africa Tjobane and Africa Tona, when we sent the report back they were not there. It was myself, TNT, Kid and commander Jimmy Jones, they came later.

At the time we were giving the report of the church, Africa Tona giving the report because he was involved. Africa Tjobane came later after we had given all the report.

MR LAX: Are you saying then that in the light of that he wouldn't have been in a position to report any of this discussion because he couldn't possibly have heard this discussion, is that what you're saying?

MR NCAMAZANA: He had no right to give a report back because he was not instructed to go there. He was - the instruction was that he must come with us to the Transkei.

MR LAX: No, you misunderstand me completely.

MR NCAMAZANA: Was he not in any way present when you reported back on the Mdantsane operation at the Bahai Church?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, he was not there.

MR LAX: Was he not there when the question of his presence was discussed?

MR NCAMAZANA: He was there when we were explaining that here is the person we were told must come back with, after having reported about all the missions we were instructed about.

MS GCABASHE: Where was he on the first occasion, where did you leave him when it was just you, TNT, Tona and Kid at JJ's house?

MR NCAMAZANA: He was in the house but in another room.

MS GCABASHE: And then he was fetched from that room when you went to show him to Jimmy Jones, is that what you're saying, it's only then that he met Jimmy Jones?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY NTONGA: Mr Ncamazana, when did you join PAC or APLA?

MR NCAMAZANA: I joined the PAC about 1992.

MR NTONGA: And when did you become a member of APLA?

MR NCAMAZANA: 1993.

MR NTONGA: In your evidence you said that, actually in your affidavit you say that in the trial you did not tell everything correctly or the truth and you explained in this Commission that you did so to protect your commanders, am I correct about that?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: By that, are you saying that in that trial, that is the East London one, I don't want to confuse you, you did not mention your commanders in the trial?

NCAMAZANA: No, I never mentioned their names.

MR NTONGA: Were they ever mentioned by your co-accused at the trial in East London?

MR NCAMAZANA: Their names appeared but I did not know about who talked about their names.

MR NTONGA: So in other words no protection was given to them because their names are part of the record in the criminal trial in the Supreme Court in East London?

MR NCAMAZANA: As I said, I tried my best in my testimony to protect him.

MR NTONGA: Okay, let's leave that. I assume that you know the structure of APLA as a former APLA cadre?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: Will I be correct to say that you have the high command, thereafter the regional command, thereafter the operational command, the base command and lastly the unit command?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And this structure is used in order to relay or to take instructions strictly? It's used in that manner from the unit commander, base commander, OC, regional command and high command, that's how you use it?

MR LAX: Sorry, do you not mean the other way around, commands are usually issued downwards rather than upwards?

MR NTONGA: Is that correct, that the instructions come from the high command down until the man on the ground?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that's how it operates.

MR NTONGA: Is it possible for you to tell us what rank did Jimmy Jones hold in this structure?

MR NCAMAZANA: He was above the camp commander.

MR NTONGA: I see. And the base commander was Jimmy Malinga?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And the commander of the unit of which you were a member was TNT?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: Let's come to something else. After you were convicted and sentenced in East London you completed a form applying for amnesty, remember?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: At this stage you had already been convicted and you are now making a full disclosure to the Commission to consider amnesty and you had to reply to certain questions in the form, remember that?

MR NCAMAZANA: The person who arrived there was an attorney who asked me questions and making me sign an application and advising me about how I must respond.

MR NTONGA: Yes, I appreciate that but you asked a question from the form and you give information, you write it down. It's the the normal procedure to complete a form?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember that.

MR NTONGA: Did you give him the name of the man who gave you the commands in that application in respect of the convictions in East London?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well as to how I answered that question unless you can remind me.

MR NTONGA: No, no, you were asked who gave the orders, who commanded that unit and you gave a name ...[indistinct] that name. Do you still remember that, at page 29?

MR NCAMAZANA: ...[no English translation]

MR NTONGA: You remember that name that you gave at page 29?

MR NCAMAZANA: I remember it as I see, as it is written down here now.

MR NTONGA: You were also asked about the dates when you were given orders and you said that you could not remember the dates, same page, same paragraph. Do you remember that?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MR NTONGA: And your affidavit is dated the 27th of September 1996, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: I see it.

MR NTONGA: Let's look at the next application in respect of the minibus ...[indistinct] 41. In that application you were applying for the minibus incident, remember?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MR LAX: Sorry, this is page 41, it's different to the typed one you've got there.

COURT: ...[indistinct]

MR LAX: Is that handed in? I beg your pardon.

MR NTONGA: And there in your application for the first time you mention Tjabane.

MR NTONGA: At page 44 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well shouldn't we call him Tjabane or should we call him Jimmy Jones because the applicant has in the main been calling him Jimmy Jones hasn't he?

MR NTONGA: No problem.

There you mention Jimmy Jones at page 44.

MR LAX: Sorry, he also mentions him at page 41.

MR NTONGA: If you compare the two applications - and for the time being forget about the affidavit you made later on, will I be correct to say that it appears that Jimmy Jones was only involved in the minibus attack but not in the other operations that were involved in the East London Supreme Court, will I be correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MR NTONGA: I know what you have said in your affidavit but looking at the two applications, in the first one where you list a lot of, may counts, it counts: murder, whatever it is, you give one commander and in the second one where you are applying for the minibus attack you gave another commander who gave you orders. Will I not be correct to say that if you look at those two applications it appears that for other operations one man gave orders and for one operation other men gave orders? Is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, it's true that this are not similar, these applications.

MR NTONGA: And another - this application of the minibus was made some time in 1977(?), on the 26th September 1987, about a year apart.

MR NCAMAZANA: I see it.

MR NTONGA: Is it also not correct that the minibus attack was the first attack?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so, it was the first attack.

MR NTONGA: Is it not perhaps correct that as you have put in your first application, that the other attacks were really ordered by the man you said in your first application? I appreciate your affidavit.

MR NCAMAZANA: As I've said already, what I've said in my first application I was saying on the advice of the attorney who came to help me assign that application.

CHAIRPERSON: How did the attorney come to see you? Did you ask to be, for legal aid or something to get the services of an attorney?

MR NCAMAZANA: I did not ask for an attorney I simply saw an attorney arriving. He did not ask me alone, he also asked other PAC members who were there, telling us that it is the PAC that sent him to come and make us sign those applications.

MR LAX: Do I take it from that that you yourself had no intention of applying for amnesty at that stage, it was only when this man arrived that you decided: "Well I'll take advantage of this opportunity?

MR NCAMAZANA: I had intentions of applying for amnesty.

MR LAX: Well how did you make those intentions known and how did you intend to execute them?

MR NCAMAZANA: We took a period of about six months or about the whole of '96 phoning the offices of Mr Ntonga and Mr Mbandazayo to come and help us make these applications for amnesty, they never came. They - we were told that they are at Goedemoed or P.E., they never came.

MR LAX: And then who actually came to help you fill in this form eventually?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was a Mr Mbanjo.

MR LAX: Was he not connected to Mr Ntonga's office or was he from some other office?

MR NCAMAZANA: He said he was coming from King William's Town.

MR NTONGA: I don't know Mr Chairman if I can assist here? What really happened is that the PAC head office sent us a list of all the people on behalf of the legal aid for amnesty and we divided that work amongst certain firms. Our firm took others, other firms took others so that's how the people were seen in prison. Mr ...[indistinct] King under ...[indistinct] and company.

I put my first proposition before I finish that it's not perhaps that the other attacks, that is other skirmishes or operations were really ordered by the said Mr Fundisi and you've said: "no", remember that?, not by Jimmy Jones?

I want to put another proposition to you, before I put it, you told the Commission that you are not aware exactly when there was a decision by the PAC to suspend the armed struggle, you heard about it but you did not receive it directly from your commander.

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: Is it not - this position is not possible that commands were given before the 17th of January '94 but were carried out thereafter because of whatever reason, breakdown of communication or whatever it is. Is that not possible, that commands were given before the suspension of armed struggle which is the 17th of January '94 but that order did not reach the men on the ground and they ...[indistinct] the operation nevertheless.

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: Lastly, you have told the Chairman that you understand the structure of the organisation, was it normal procedure for you as a cadre to communicate or even report directly to a man who was about two ranks above you, ...[indistinct] leader, that is Jimmy Jones? Do you want me to repeat it? Do you want me to repeat it, the question?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, please repeat the question.

MR NTONGA: Do you say that in your unit it was normal procedure to report to Jimmy Jones who was about two ranks higher than your own unit leader, not for the unit leader to report to his superior and that superior to repeat it to Jimmy Jones?

MR NCAMAZANA: What I knew was that the report back must be sent back to the same person who gave the order. I could not give the report back to the unit commander because I gave the report back to Jimmy Jones as the one who gave us the instruction.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman. ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Sorry Mr Chairman, it was indicated yesterday that the widows of the deceased wanted to ask questions so possibly before Advocate Corlett re-examines? Mrs Rasavi would like to ask a few questions.

Could you come up please?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you start questioning, could you just give us your personal details?

QUESTIONS BY MRS RASAVI: I am the wife Mr Rasavi who was employed at Fort Hare.

I really have to ask for the patience of the Commission, I'm no lawyer, I'm no advocate. I have to get myself into this before I can say what I want to say and ask what I want to ask so please bear with me. I'd like to thank you for giving me the opportunity first

and foremost because it's the first time in these four years that ...[intervention]

MR LAX: We understand that it's difficult for you. If you just need a few minutes to compose yourself, that's okay.

MRS RASAVI: It's the first time in four years that families actually have been acknowledged to exist. Where the legal trial was concerned it was through grapevines and rumours that we found out. This is the first time that we actually have been, become an intity in this entire process and I'd really like to recommend to the Commission that they advise strongly to the other side of the law that this becomes a normal procedure, that the families involved be kept up to date. I want to say this, I have to say this because for four years you know, it's been four long years.

I am not sitting here as somebody who sits with vengence or who looks out for revenge or who wants to see you know, my own sight of what I would consider justice. I'm not here to sit like that. I am here because I am stunned and I am filled with questions. I am incapable of understanding why and I don't just sit here as wife but I sit here as somebody whose husband was a dear of another one of the three who were killed. Mr Anvari was a dearest friend of my husband and therefore he was my fried. Mr Bashandiki who got killed, ...[indistinct] Bashandiki was another very, very dear fried. We were not just co-relionists, we were dear, dear friends. I stit here stunned because I didn't just lose one person, I lost three, thee close people.

They meant more to the entire community than just being three people. They were members who led the community, who were asked, many women alike, the entire community, that they should be part of that institution that would guide that community. So they were not just three men who were there at the wrong place at the wrong time.

They were three men - I would like really him to know that who had lots of integrity, who had lots of integrity, who lived in Africa because they loved Africa and they loved the African people. And they came here to try and instill in all these people that same love for each other. I'd really like you to know that, I think you must know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Rasavi, I don't want to stop you at this stage but perhaps I could explain the purpose of the proceedings. At the moment the applicant is giving evidence and the purpose, if you have any questions you want to put to him, we will give you unlimited opportunity thereafter the two applicants have given evidence, for you to tell us exactly what the facts are as you know them. You will be able to come and do that but I think rather at the moment let's finish with this man so if you know what happened and you disagree with any of the things he said, you can ask him about them certainly.

MRS RASAVI: I wasn't there when it happened. I was at the trial and I have my own qustions. I hear the Truth and Reconciliation Committee is based on truth, amnesty is based on truth. I hear opposites, I hear contradictions, I heard contradictions in the trial and I'm hearing contradictions left right and centre. As long as these questions, to me in my mind, are not answered then that part as far as I'm concerned the truth has not been established. I don't know if I have anything to say, whether I consider the truth has been told but as long as that exists then there is a question within my mind.

He says that he was just following orders. Whenever a question is asked then he says: "I was just following orders", well for me that is not just good enough. I would like him to tell me today, not as an accused but today as a human being, I would like him to tell me you know, in all that time when all these terrible things were happening within South Africa, does he know of any other place within the entire South Africa where a command was given for a unit to go to a black residential area and there kill people who had absolutely no connection whatsoever with any political connotation? Does he know of any other incident within South Africa that such an order had been given?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you hear and understand the questions?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I hear the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you answer it?

MR NCAMAZANA: The question is difficult to answer because many other things that happened to black people, that happened to black people I did not know except those things I heard about, especially during the TRC process that concerned black people who during a vigil, police came in and shot at them and killed them. It was women and children and that happened in Durban.

MRS RASAVI: I am aware that incidents like that happened, I am aware. I'm talking about white people. Don't get me wrong, really, really, please don't get me wrong. I myseld don't see colour, I really do not see colour and these men also didn't see colour.

What I'd like to know is, do you know of an incident where there white or where white people were ordered to be killed within any black residential area within the entire South Africa who were not there either to earn a living or who were not there to have a jolly good time but who were just there? Do you know of any incident within a black residential area where such an incident was ordered to take place?

I don't know of any. I know of places of word where whites were gone and killed, I know of places like the Highgate Hotel and that's not in a black area but I mean within the residential area. There is not one, I promise you there is not one.

My question to you is this, doesn't it strike you as enormously strange that such a small church should have been selected whithin the heart of a black residential are at that time, that time where there was so much struggle going on, so much fear in the hearts of all the people? Doesn't it strike you as strange that three white men that were willing to go into the heart of such a black area, not for political means, not to gain money but purely to help the people there, doesn't it strike you now as strange that you should have been sent to kill those people who were actually uplifting your people? Isn't that strange? Doesn't that raise a question in your mind?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is long and I cannot understand it, can it please be repeated?

CHAIRPERSON: The question as I understand it was, do you know of any instance where a group people were ordered to kill white people in a black residential area, where those people were there to help the residents?

MR NCAMAZANA: I do not remember me hearing about that, I cannot lie.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second part of the question was that if you agree that you don't know of any instance, doesn't it strike you now as odd that you should have been ordered to go to a small church in a black residential area to kill white people?

MR NCAMAZANA: About that explanation just now given, what is the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you now consider that there was something odd about the instructions given that you should got to a church in a black residential area, a small church there, and kill three white people?

MR LAX: Not just three ordinary white people but three white people who were committed to helping your community, that's the thrust of the issue?

MR NCAMAZANA: This question is difficult to answer because today I understand that what happened was not good or nice to the victims and to the families of the victims. That is the reason why I am here today to ask for amnesty for those acts.

MRS RASAVI: As a human being do you today not within your own mind query why those orders were given, you can think?

MR NCAMAZANA: I sometimes ask myself but I cannot get answers to those questions.

MRS RASAVI: Alright. Do you still hate whites?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I don't hate them.

MRS RASAVI: So we no longer have to be kicked out of your country?

MR NCAMAZANA: No.

MRS RASAVI: Are you still a member of the PAC?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MRS RASAVI: You know I have studied a little bit of history, my interest is World War 2 actually and when anybody has been wrong in any situation of war which I would assume you claim you were in at that time, reparation somehow have to be made and now you are seeking amnesty from the Government and if they grant this to you then that is what the Government gives to you, your normal ordinary life back.

That is raparations in my eyes that they are giving you, the one who has been part of a crime which has been committed again what I feel, my husband, what is it that the Government should give the families who have lost their providers? You get back your normal life if you get amnesty, what should the Government give to the families?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie to you, I do not know what the Government is giving the families of the victims.

MRS RASAVI: I don't ask whether you know what the Government is giving, I'm asking you what do you think?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is to reconcile the perpetrators and the families of the victims.

MRS RASAVI: That will bring back our providers, that will not make our lives easier. I understand that you cannot get back your relatives and husbands and the victims because they have passed away.

MRS RASAVI: South Africa has suffered from racial prejudice, right?, suffered very, very dearly. Women have suffered for much, much longer gender prejudice, do you think it could be justified that we just pick up the guns and start killing men? That is exactly what you have done, you just picked up your guns and started killing whites, do you think that's justified? That any such a thing is justified, to kill?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MRS RASAVI: It is not justified?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot think it justifies or does not justify but I think it will not be a good thing.

MRS RASAVI: But it is justified that men that you killed, whites which oppress you?

MR NCAMAZANA: As I've said, what happened was happening under instructions I was given that I could not contradict.

MRS RASAVI: So next time there is again an armed struggle you will once again pick up the arms and do exactly the same?

MR NCAMAZANA: I don't think so, I don't think I'll again involve myself in such things.

MRS RASAVI: Alright. Ultimately the decision to kill these people is your own, right? You have received orders but you also have, you are a human being and you think and ultimately the decision to kill is your own? How can you as a civilian or a soldier kill three defenceless unarmed people? You actually look into their eyes, how are you able to be willing to commit such an act? Explain that to me because I cannot, for the world I cannot understand it.

MR NCAMAZANA: We could not have done otherwise because that was the instruction that was given, that we could not contradict, we were forced to do that.

MRS RASAVI: You were forced?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was - we were kind of forced to accept that instruction.

MRS RASAVI: Okay. My last question to you. You say all you cared about was to kill anybody who supported the Government, whether they were white, Chinese, Persians, it doesn't matter, as long as you killed people who were supporting the Government. Then why is it that you did not kill Africans who were supporting the Government? - at the church. If it is assumed we are supporting the Government of course. Everybody there was one.

MR NCAMAZANA: The instruction that was given to us was that we must kill white people, not black people at that church, that is why they were divided from the blacks and those who were white were then killed.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicated that that was your last question but bear in mind that you will - we welcome you to give you the opportunity to come and explain further what you feel, what you believe and thank you very much for your participation.

I had invited you to re-examine - oh, is there a second person coming?

MR PRIOR: No Mr Chairman, she has declined, she would also welcome the opportunity to testify later on.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understand now from Mr Lax that there are one or two points that he thinks it would be better that he should clear up before you re-examine.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson. I'm just interested in a follow-up on the questions that Mr Ntonga asked you, particularly about the filling in of these various amnesty applications.

Now in the first one you were assisted by an attorney and when Mr Ntonga pointed out to you the disparities between the two amnesty applications your answer to his question in that regard was that you filled it in: "On the advice of the attorney who helped me fill in the application". Do you remember that?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember it.

MR LAX: How did he actually fill in that application form for you? Did you tell him the full story and then he suggested to you that you should only mention TNT or did you only tell him about TNT?

MR NCAMAZANA: I gave him the whole story.

MR LAX: Why was it decided to leave out the thing about Mr Jones?

MR NCAMAZANA: Firstly, it was new - not new to me that day for them to say I must not include his name, that is Jimmy Jones' name in my application because there were people who came. It is apparent that they were sent to us and they told us that when we make those applications we must not refer to people who are alive, we must implicate people who are already deceased.

MR LAX: Who were those people?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well who they were because I was not called then to receive those people, I only got the message from other comrades who were called by those.

MR LAX: When did that happen?

MR NCAMAZANA: During 1996.

MR LAX: 1996?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Was it before you made this first application?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Approximately how long before?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember the month and the date but all of this happened during 1996.

MR LAX: So the fact of the matter is that when you made this first application you didn't tell the Truth Commission the truth?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was because I was accepting the instrutions that were given to us but later I discovered the TRC will not give me amnesty if proceed giving these lies.

MR LAX: But wasn't that clear to you from the form? The form makes that very clear, that you're obliged to make full disclosure.

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so, it explains so.

MR LAX: So you knew that at the time you didn't make full disclosure?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I knew but because I too was afraid of my life, losing my life by not accepting the instructions, not to speak about the commander and to refer to those who are already deceased.

MR LAX: Who threatened you with your life, that you were afraid to lose it?

MR NCAMAZANA: I feared for my life by speaking, by not accepting what I was told and speaking the truth but when time went by and I talked - thinking about this, I realised that it would not help me not to speak the truth to the TRC despite the one who instructed me to do these things is still alive and not amongst those who are deceased, as I have been told to talk about the late TNT.

MR LAX: Why didn't you, if you feared for your life, speak to the prison authorities, tell them that you were very worried, here was a situation were the law required you to make full disclosure and you were worried that if you made full disclosure you would put yourself in danger, maybe they could move you to another place or provide you with some security? Why didn't you follow that up?

MR NCAMAZANA: I did not think about that accept that I was afraid at the time.

MR LAX: Are you afraid now?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I'm not afraid now because I'm saying the truth, the only truth now and I'm compelled to say the truth. What can happen to me after me having said the truth, that will then happen, that will be it.

MS GCABASHE: When did you stop being afraid because you have now told us about Jimmy Jones?

MR NCAMAZANA: Before we went on trial for the church case at Bisho.

MS GCABASHE: But at that case you didn't tell the truth, that's what you said to us yesterday unless I misunderstand you.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, if I might interject. At that trial they never gave any evidence.

MR LAX: So what was it that made you change your fear at that point?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is because I was told that at the trial at Bisho I must say I got instructions from Commander Sabelo Pama.

MR LAX: Who told you that?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was commander Jimmy Jones.

MR LAX: So at that trial you were going to lie again about your instructions?

MR NCAMAZANA: I was not - it was not my intention to lie again because as I did not lie there.

MR LAX: But your instructions didn't come from Sabelo Pama.

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is true. I discovered what will not - it will not happen that for example, it is not possible for a command to come from a General on top and to reach the soldier on the ground, that cannot happen and the TRC will know it and see that indeed I'm lying plain when I say I got the instructions from Sabelo Pama.

MR LAX: The point I'm simply making is, you were intending to give that version at your trial and that was a lie and you were aware of that, isn't that so?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I was not about to say that.

MR LAX: So you were going to disobey saying that?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that would not mean I did not follow the instructions because the person who was telling me these things was outside and not in prison, stays relaxed with his family. He did not support me with anything in prison and my family was suffering.

MR LAX: That doesn't change the fact that you were going to disobey what you presumed to be your commander? Whatever your motive might have been, you were still going to disobey him?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, because I was not under his command I was under the Government control. I was not in a camp or outside where I'm supposed to take orders from him.

MR LAX: So you still haven't answered the questsion, what was it that made you not afraid, if that was the case?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was because I knew that it will not help me in Court and the TRC to lie and say I was intructed by Sabelo Pama to go and attack at the church while it's the one who gave me the instruction is still alive.

MR LAX: So it had nothing to do with being afraid, but everything to do with what might help you?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect, and I'm not sure - it's an aspect from the transcript of your first trial, I'm not sure whether you have a copy of this yet and maybe what we can do is make a copy and let you read during the lunch break and just deal with it after the lunch break. So I think I'll hold this question over till that point rather than deal with it now.

Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll get back to my invitation to ask you to re-examine.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Ncamazana, when you testified in the East London Court, is it correct that you were given instructions or that you believed that you had to protect the persons who, person that had given you the instructions to carry out these commands?

MR NCAMAZANA: I was protecting the one who gave me the orders to do these things.

MS COLLETT: Why were you protecting him?

MR NCAMAZANA: Because I was afraid of him being arrested.

MS COLLETT: Afraid of him being arrested because he was your commander?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so because it may be that if he is arrested I may in danger.

MS COLLETT: Did you believe that you had to protect him because he was your commander and that was your duty as a soldier?

MR PRIOR: With respect Mr Chairman, that is such a leading question, with respect. We've heard so many conflicting versions from this witness, whether he - what he told and what said to either protect himself or advance his position. I object on the basis that it's a leading question.

MS COLLETT: I'll rephrase it.

What did you believe your duty was as a soldier towards your commander?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question.

MS COLLETT: What did you believe your duty was as a soldier towards your commander?

MR NCAMAZANA: To do whatever I could to protect him from arrest during that trial because I knew the police were after him and they also told me to talk about him and say he is the one who commanded me to commit those acts.

MS COLLETT: Did you expect any benefit from APLA or the PAC if you did that?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, there was no benefit that I would reap from such a thing.

MS COLLETT: Now when you filled in your amnesty application the first time, did you receive any advice from anybody as to who you should or shouldn't implicate or what you should or shouldn't say?

MR NCAMAZANA: There were such advices given.

MS COLLETT: What was the gist of that advice?

MR NCAMAZANA: We were told that when making these applications for amnesty we must not talk about the commander we must talk about those who are already deceased.

MS COLLETT: Are you trying to say that you must say that the people that commanded you are already deceased?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And is that why the application was intially filled in with the name of the person that is contained therein?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so, yes.

MS COLLETT: Now you stood trial in Bisho for the Bahai Faith case, do you remember?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MS COLLETT: Now, was it your decision that at that particular case when you, if you should have given evidence or that the facts that were to be put to the witnesses were that Jimmy Jones was the person who commanded you?

MR NCAMAZANA: That's what I thought because indeed it was he who had instructed me but he had sent people to come and tell us that we must not mention him and he too came personally and told us these things and I told him, I denied right in front of him that I would not do such a thing. There was a person there when he came to tell us, the mother of Africa Tjobane, that's the reason why he was stopped by the Court from visiting us.

MS COLLETT: What do you mean he was stopped by the Court from visiting you in prison?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is because he was there to change us from mentioning him in Court and talk about Sabelo Pama.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that it was in the Bisho High Court in connection with the Bahai Faith case that you implicated Jimmy Jones?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did Jimmy - the defence that you raised to the Bahai Faith case in Bisho, what was that defence?

MR NCAMAZANA: What I said was that I had no - I was not guilty except that I was following orders that I got from him.

MS COLLETT: Did Jimmy Jones testify in the Bahai Faith case?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, he gave no testimony in Court. He said he was going to appear before the TRC and tell everything.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that, or will you confirm that it is correct that the State did intend to call Jimmy Jones as a State witness?

MR NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MS COLLETT: Do you remember or can you confirm that the State in the Bahai Faith trial intended to call Jimmy Jones to give evidence on their behalf?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so, the Court sought to use him as a State witness against me and Africa Tjobane.

MS COLLETT: And do you remember that he didn't come and testify for the State?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember that he refused.

MS COLLETT: M'Lord, at this stage - Mr Chairman, at this stage I wish to hand in a letter which was sent to the Prosecutor in the Bahai Faith case. It was the intention of the Prosecutor, as the witness has correctly said, to call Jimmy Jones to refute the evidence of obedience to orders which was, the defence which was raised.

Mr Chairman, a letter was then sent to Mr Christopher who was the prosecutor in that case, which I believe that your, that the members of this Committee should see because I do believe that it is relevant to this Commission and I would ask to hand in a copy of that. I have shown it to Mr Prior already, he is aware of the letter.

Now Mr Ncamzana, it's correct that you've seen this before isn't it?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I cannot remember well, unless I can read it or it can be read to me.

MS COLLETT: This is the letter which was sent by the legal representatives of Mr Jimmy Jones saying that he applied for amnesty with other members of high command and that his evidence would not support the State's case, it would in fact destroy it, do you remember that being communicated to you?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember that being communicated in Court.

MS COLLETT: And is it also correct that in the Bahai Faith trial there wasn't a single person called from APLA to refute the obedience to orders on the part of the State or by the State?

MR NCAMAZANA: Are we talking about the person who was going to testify in our favour or in favour of the State?

MS COLLETT: In favour of the State. There was no commander from APLA that came and testified in favour of the State?

MR NCAMAZANA: A highly placed person from APLA who came to give witness was Africa Mphashlele.

MS COLLETT: But is it correct that he came and gave evidence for you in your defence?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, we don't have a transcript of that evidence before the Commission at this stage but can you remember what he said with regard to the operations, the Bahai Faith operation, did he say that - let me ask you, what did he say about the Bahai Faith action?

MR NCAMAZANA: What I remember well is that he explained that he got the report back from commander Jimmy Jones about the attack on the Bahai and other places that we had attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for one moment to say your letter will be Exhibit F.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.

Now did he tell the Court or did he make a comment as to whether the acts that he referred to, particularly the Bahai Faith matter, seemed to fall within the policy of APLA or not?

MR NCAMAZANA: Despite me not remembering everything but I can remember that he did not reject the attack as not fitting within APLA policy.

MS COLLETT: And can you remember what he said about the armed struggle being suspended and these attacks having taken place after the armed struggle had apparently been suspended?

MR NCAMAZANA: I remember.

MS COLLETT: What did he say?

MR NCAMAZANA: What he said when he was speaking, indeed the armed struggle was suspended but it was not easy for that to be communicated properly or in time with all the soldiers as it first had to go through the commanders in the whole of South Africa and then the commanders to pass that information on to APLA soldiers who are all over South Africa and not in Transkei only.

MS COLLETT: And did he mention that this took a period of time or not?

MR NCAMAZANA: He said that could take as more, about six months for it to reach all soldiers of APLA.

MS COLLETT: Did he confirm that certain attacks took place after the armed struggle and before the people were, the APLA soldiers were communicated with?

MR NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MS COLLETT: Did he say that there were certain attacks that took place at the hands of APLA after the armed struggle was suspended but before the bases and the commanders had actually received those instructions of the suspension?

MR NCAMAZANA: If I remember well he did say that those things can happend, that attacks be carried out because those soldiers or such soldiers had not received such messages about the suspension.

MS COLLETT: Now you've mentioned that TNT was the unit leader, what do you mean by unit?

MR NCAMAZANA: When I talk about the unit I talk about the group I was with, the group I was moving with to go and attack the places we attacked.

MS COLLETT: So by that do you mean that the unit could have been differently comprised for different attacks?

MR NCAMAZANA: That can happen that a unit commit or be involved in separate attacks.

MS COLLETT: What is the duty of the unit leader?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is to lead that unit.

MS COLLETT: In carrying out the mission?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, to carry those operations through and to lead it during the planning stages, to plan the attacks.

MS COLLETT: Now the missions that you were instructed to take, for example the Highgate Hotel mission, the Bahai Faith mission, did you have any say as to whether they were a good idea or to propose alternative missions in their place or did you have to just carry out the missions that you were instructed to carry out?

MR NCAMAZANA: To communicate that, those alternatives to whom?, to the unit commander or to the commander who gave those instructions?

MS COLLETT: To anybody. Did you have a choice in what mission, in the places that you were carry out these missions at or were they, were you simply advised as to where you would carry out a mission or where you were to carry out a mission?

MR NCAMAZANA: I could not contradict or perhaps not accept the order given or have questions about it. After it having been explained to me that the attack, mine was to accept the order as it was given.

MS COLLETT: Were you ever given details about the victims that you were to attack?

MR NCAMAZANA: What kind of detail?

MS COLLETT: Well, any personal details about them, where they worked, what they did or anything like that?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, no such details were given.

MS COLLETT: The initial reconnaissance before a mission was carried out, was that done by the unit who was carrying out the mission or was it done by some other unit?

MR NCAMAZANA: Reconnaissance was done by another unit but the unit that was supposed to carry out the mission was forced to do reconnaissance itself but within the unit the members of the group felt that there is no necesity for any reconnaissance, because they more or a lot about that place, that depends on them.

MS COLLETT: Now you've been referred to an amnesty application that was made by yourself in 1997, it's actually the amnesty application referred to at page 40 of the record and it's an amnesty application regarding the Fort Knox attack, do you remember that?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MS COLLETT: Now, you were never tried for Fort Knox, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so, I was never called to Court.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that the amnesty deadline had been extended in 1997?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And is it correct that it was then that you decided to make amnesty for this attack as well despite the fact that there'd been no charges or trial?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And that was after or during the Bahai Faith trial, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was indeed during that time of the Bahai trial.

MS COLLETT: Now, are you satisified that you have made full disclosure - sorry, is it correct that you submitted to the TRC a supplementary affidavit?

MR NCAMAZANA: Supplemented, what do you mean, I cannot understand the question well.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that you made an additional affidavit to the Truth Commission after you had submitted those initial amnesty applciations?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now why did you make that supplementary affidavit?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was because in my first applications I knew that they weren't telling the truth, that is the reason why there was a lot of conflict between ourselves and our initial attorney who was supposed to represent us, Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo and even with the TRC we had a lot of conflict

because they would not agree with the way we were putting the truth forward, that is why they withdraw from representing us, they told us they would not represent us.

MS COLLETT: The information contained in the supplementary affidavit, is this the information that, as far as you are concerned, is the truth and that you wanted the TRC to see to support your amnesty application?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ncamazana, can I just ask you a few questions to understand the causes, the factors that led to your getting involved in all the activities you have outlined both yesterday and today.

The other purpose of the questions I will be asking you is to find out from you your thinking, your motives and perspectives for having been involved in all the actions you have told us.

Now, to start with, you say you were 18 in 1994 and were you attending school?

MR NCAMAZANA: I stopped schooling in 1993, in the middle of 1993.

ADV SANDI: Why did you stop schooling?

MR NCAMAZANA: It was because I was going to join APLA.

ADV SANDI: Were you making any progress at school, that is before you left school to join APLA?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, there was.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever get in trouble with the authorities at school?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I had no trouble at school.

ADV SANDI: Generally speaking, would you say your parents took any particular interest in your schooling activities?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, very much so.

ADV SANDI: I would take it that you were staying together with your parents, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I stayed with them, yes.

ADV SANDI: Where are your parents at the moment? Are they here to give you some moral support?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, they are present now.

ADV SANDI: Were your parents aware that you were involved with the PAC and APLA?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie to you that they knew but they could see my friends, that when we are at home perhaps staying at the back house talking about politics.

ADV SANDI: How would you say you were getting on with your parents, would you say you were getting on very well, there were no problems about you not being able to obey the parental authority?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, no such thing ever happened, that I would be disobedient or there would be problems of misunderstandings.

ADV SANDI: You have mentioned quite a number of youths who were involved in APLA, generally speaking would you say these were more or less the same age as you?

MR NCAMAZANA: Which people?

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned people like Luvuyo, TNT, Kid and a whole lot of others.

MR NCAMAZANA: They were not my age group, I was the youngest amongst them all.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that there was no other person within the groups you were interacting with, a person who was of the same age as you?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I don't remember that there was any of such age as myself that is.

ADV SANDI: In conclusion Mr Ncamazana, we are now about to come to the end of your testimony before this Committee in support of your application for amnesty, are you satisfied that you a have answered all questions that have been asked of you frankly and honestly?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV SANDI: There has been no inhibiting factor on your part such as the fact of loyalty to those who were your commanders at the time in question?

MR NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated, I do not understand it.

ADV SANDI: Let me put the question in a slightly different way. Are you still loyal to your former commanders?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I do not know about that, it is they who can say whether they still trust me or not.

ADV SANDI: I do not know how the interpreter has put this to you, do you consider yourself as having any duty towards your former commanders?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

ADV SANDI: Speaking here today before this Committee and making an application for amnesty, do you feel that you owe your commanders anything?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I do not owe them anything.

ADV SANDI: You have - perhaps at the risk of repetition, you have not felt yourself inhibited, constrained in any way by the relationship between yourself and your commanders?

MR NCAMAZANA: How contrained, can you explain that?

ADV SANDI: Maybe I should accept that you have answered the question. Now, coming to the end, would my impression of you be correct or incorrect, that you are a person who was readily prepared to carry out any instruction without questioning? Is that impression on my part correct or incorrect?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is so.

ADV SANDI: Is that perhaps because, as you've just said, you were the youngest person amongst all the people you have told us about?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much Mr Ncamazana, I think that's the end of my questions.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

One question you didn't answer that Advocate Corlett asked you was: "Did your unit have different compositions for different operations"? and you went on to say: "Well we did lots of different operations", that was in fact your answer, you didn't answer the question properly. What is your answer to that question?

MR NCAMAZANA: What we did we did as a unit.

MR LAX: So it was - and who was the unit, just tell us again? Yourself?

MR NCAMAZANA: Myself, the late Africa TNT, the late Africa Luvuyo, Tona.

MR LAX: Was that it?

MR NCAMAZANA: The late Africa TNT, Kid, Tona, Djobane.

MR LAX: And of course yourself.

MR NCAMAZANA: Myself that is.

MR LAX: Who else was at your base?

MR NCAMAZANA: Which base?

MR LAX: You only had one base, that base was at Butterworth. You've referred to it as your base, the place where you did your training and the place you went to stay after your missions and between your missions.

MR NCAMAZANA: We were not staying together alone there, we were quite a number of people being trained there.

MR LAX: Were those people part of your unit or were they part of other units?

MR NCAMAZANA: They were not part of our unit.

MR LAX: What was your unit's code name?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well what our code name was.

MR LAX: But you were only in one unit?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes.

MR LAX: You would have used that code name all the time.

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I was at that unit that time we were supposed to go and attack. At the base we are not one unit, we get united or integrated with others.

MR LAX: So your unit was disolved when you got back to the base, is that what you're saying?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Did memebers of your unit carry out other operations with members of, with the other members from that base?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I have no knowledge of that, I only know the unit I was involved in, which I was involved in.

MR LAX: So you didn't see other members going out on operations?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I never saw them going on such missions.

MR LAX: So was yours the only unit that was doing operations at that time?

MR NCAMAZANA: I would not know that it was the only one. What I know is that anybody who leaves the base going wherever, those people who are left behind are not supposed to know where those you are leaving are going.

MR LAX: Now, you said early in your re-examination that you were protecting your commander when you were going to give evidence at the trial.

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I was protecting him.

MR LAX: And you said you were afraid of him being arrested.

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: What were you afraid of?

MR NCAMAZANA: Is that he be arrested, perhaps that could cause something or cause trouble with my life and that of my family.

MR LAX: So you were worried that if he was arrested you would seen to be, to use the coloqual term, an impiempie and that would have implications for you and your family?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.

There's just one aspect I want to ask you on Mr Ncamazana. If you turn to page 126 of the documents before us, this is Tona's evidence and it's really essentially, this is where he is saying: as far as he was concerned he was going to East London to steal a car, that's essentially what he's saying here. In particular on page 126 he says that:

the last sentence of that first paragraph. And he goes on to talk about going to look for vehicles, did you do this with him?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I never did such a thing.

MS GCABASHE: Are you saying that what you recall of Tona's evidence is false essentially, all of it is false, about going to East London to steal a car?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, it's not true.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Two points I'd like you to assist me with. One is, have you got any other names for Makabongwe Mfundisi, the person referred to in your original application at page 29?

MR NCAMAZANA: Makabongwe Mfundisi is TNT.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's been mispelt where he's spelt as Malibongo Fundisa, when your counsel put it at page 166 line 13?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, it is incorrectly spelt.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have referred to JJ quite often in your evidence, is that not so?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he been present at these hearings while you have been giving that evidence?

MR NCAMAZANA: Are you saying was he here in this hall or where?

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here in this hall?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, he was here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still here?

MR NCAMAZANA: I don't know whether he's still here.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ncamazana, would I be correct to think that you were in a hurry when you came to this Bahai Church?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, we were in a rush because we were told to be fast and return after having made the attack successfully.

ADV SANDI: I notice from the documents we have here that at least two people say there was singing going on there amongst the things that were taking place? You did not hear any singing, was that because of the hurry you were in?

MR NCAMAZANA: It may be that I was too much in a hurry, that may be why I did not hear the singing.

ADV SANDI: I also understand that you did not even hear the person who had said these people were not whites in the South African sense, have a look at them, you did not hear that one?

MR NCAMAZANA: No, I did not hear him or her.

ADV SANDI: You do not dispute that such words were uttered by the person concerned?

MR NCAMAZANA: I cannot deny because I was outside, I was not inside the church hall, I was at the door.

ADV SANDI: All in all you were anxious that the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and you dissapear from the scene?

MR NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV SANDI: Had you not done so you could have risked the possibility of putting yourselves in trouble?

MR NCAMAZANA: I would not know whether we would be at risk but what I knew was that we had to be fast and quickly dissappear as was the case.

ADV SANDI: Finally, would you be able to estimate the number of people who were inside the church?

MR NCAMAZANA: My estimation is about 30 but I would not be sure about the number.

ADV SANDI: Is that also because of the hurry you were in?

MR NCAMAZANA: Besides my being in a hurry I also did not go inside to look at all the people who were there. At the position at the door I could see that there are many people inside the church.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ncamazana.

Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence.

MR LAX: Just one thing Chairperson, I just want to put on record that I've noticed that some of the annexures to your middle application are missing. I've asked Mr Prior to try and make them available to me and I just want to place on record that I may want to ask some questions arising out of those annexures as soon as I've had a proper look at them. This is the typed application, none of the annexures are before us unfortunately and I've just noticed that now and I just wanted you to leave that possibility open to us. I just wanted to make that known.

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you on?

MR LAX: The application that starts at page 32 of the papers and runs through to page 38. There are extensive annexures mentioned there, A and B, C, D and E, none of those annexures are before us unfortunately, and Mr Prior will make them available as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We were going to, as I understood it, allow the applicant to read this passage during the adjournment but I don't know if he needs all that much time.

You've had a chance to read it Mrs Collett?

MS COLLETT: That's correct, I have read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think if we take a very brief adjournment now for a matter of two or three minutes, he could go through that passage and we could then complete that questioning?

MS COLLETT: I don't have a problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a short as an adjournment as possible to enable the passage from ...[intervention]

MR LAX: It's the passage that starts at about line 22 and runs through to the end of that page basically.

CHAIRPERSON: To have the whole of the passage - well I think it should go to page 996.

MR LAX: In fact Chairperson, sorry, it's really a short passage, it's about 6 lines.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if they will interpret to him the general thing in page 995 from line 20 to page 996 line 10.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman sorry, before we take the short adjournment could the public be informed that we are reconvening within a short time, that there's not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This is not the midday adjournment, we are going to adjourn for a few minutes and then come back and complete I hope, this questioning and then we will take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Has your client had an opportunity of reading this passage or having it interpreted to him?

MS COLLETT: He has Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Ncamazana, you are still under oath.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: (s.u.o.)

MR LAX: Now, you see from this passage on this document ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Chair, shall we make this the next exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: G.

MR LAX: G, ja.

This is an extract from the transcript of your trial, do you understand that?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, I know Sir.

MR LAX: Now, your counsel at the time was Mr van Niekerk, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And he was asking you about when you joined the armed struggle and when that struggle ended.

MR NCAMAZANA: That's correct Sir.

MR LAX: And you indicated that it ended in December 1993, do you see that there?

MR NCAMAZANA: I was not sure at the time but I think it was December 1996, 1993 I beg your pardon.

MR LAX: That was when the first call for the cessation of the armed struggle was made.

MR NCAMAZANA: Correct Sir.

MR LAX: And then a further call was made on the 16th and 17th of January, after the UNITRA Conference, do you confirm that?

MR NCAMAZANA: That's correct Sir.

MR LAX: Now when did you become aware of these things?

MR NCAMAZANA: I got to know them later on. I can't remember whether it was after the elections or before the elections.

MR LAX: And how did you come to know about them?

MR NCAMAZANA: I used to meet with the other comrades in Mdantsane.

MR LAX: Now, your evidence is that you didn't know the armed struggle had terminated at the time all these events happened?

MR NCAMAZANA: At the time I didn't have that type of a message, I didn't get that type of a message from my commander.

MR LAX: And at the time that the incidents, the last incident which occurred towards the end of March that year, that was 1994, you still hadn't known that, is that correct?

MR NCAMAZANA: I was not yet told.

MR LAX: Did you carry any other operations out or join any other operational activities after these incidents you've referred to us?

MR NCAMAZANA: I never continued.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to carry on the armed struggle then because you didn't know that it had ceased?

MR NCAMAZANA: I used to take all the orders, I used obey all the orders that were given to me.

MR LAX: Well what steps did you take to find out what your next orders might be?

MR NCAMAZANA: I never took any steps to that effect. I used to wait for the instructions, I used to wait for orders.

MR LAX: Is it not correct that you didn't go back to your base, you went home, you were in hiding at home?

MR NCAMAZANA: After the last attack, as I left with the late Luvuyo leaving for the Transkei for the report back and we were told that all the comrades were arrested, we proceeded to Tsomo. Then after the Good Friday, the Easters had passed, Easter holidays had passed, we went back to Mdantsane.

MR LAX: So you never tried to make any other contract with your fellow cadres or other commanders or other operatives of APLA?

MR NCAMAZANA: There were no people that I could report to them except the person who was already arrested, the one who gave me the instructions.

MR LAX: I'll leave it at that, thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Can I ask Mr Ncamazana, for clarification on one of the responses you have given to a question by my colleague here. He was asking you, by the end of March, that is when the last incident occurred, were you aware that the armed struggle had terminated and your response to that, according to my notes, was that: "I was not yet told". Are you implying that someone was supposed to come and tell you at some point?

MR NCAMAZANA: It's my commander who had the authority to tell me that, not to hear what was being said by the media and the radios and the newspapers.

ADV SANDI: Just to cap over on that particular point, during all this time you were involved in these activitites, was it part of your understanding that at some point you will be told that the armed struggle has been called off?

MR NCAMAZANA: I wouldn't know that, that I would be told or not.

ADV SANDI: That is not very clear to me. You were supposed to be involved in these activities until I suppose something happens, until what happened?

MR NCAMAZANA: Until the mission was accomplished, as we were attacking the people we were trying to accomplish the mission.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ncamazana.

MR LAX: Chairperson, I just realised I've missed out the next part of that evidence from his trial.

You were then asked from that extract when you returned to East London and you said: the reason you went back to East London was because the armed struggle had been suspended, that was before any of these incidents took place. That was your evidence there.

MR NCAMAZANA: As I've already told you that what I was saying during the trial in East London, it was was not true, it was not the truth. What I was trying to do was to protect my commander so that I could appear not guilty.

MR LAX: You see this reason you've given us about protecting your commander, it would make sence if the police didn't know anything about your commander but the fact of the matter is they knew everything about your commander so what was there to protect? They already had the information, it's clear from your

confessions they had the information. They knew everything about your unit and your commander, what were you trying to protect?

MR NCAMAZANA: It is because if I testified about my commander the police would arrest him. He would also be one of the acccused as they wanted me to state clearly that he's the one who gave me instructions but I refused to do so.

MR LAX: The fact is that they knew already that he'd given you the instructions, you said as much in your confessions. And it is plain from the first trial that that was so. It may well be that they were looking for him because he'd left by the time you'd got back to Butterworth, you couldn't find him so he probably went into hiding as well. Do you see what I'm saying? The fact of the matter is the game was over before you were even arrested.

MR NCAMAZANA: After the last attack, on our retreat, I arrived there with him already arrested and also other comrades at the base and those who stayed in town and Africa Tjobane.

MR LAX: That's precisely my point, so how could you protect him if he'd already been arrested?

MR NCAMAZANA: He was not arrested for those things he instructed us to do.

MR LAX: We'll just leave it at that, thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 2ND APRIL 1998

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairperson, I'm going to call the second applicant, Zukile Mbambo to take the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MS COLLETT: Xhosa.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: Mr Mbambo, what is your age presently?

MR MBAMBO: I am reaching 39 years.

INTERPRETER: In November he'll be 30.

MS COLLETT: And were you a member of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: When did you become a member of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: In 1991.

MS COLLETT: And where were you recruited from?

MR MBAMBO: In Cape Town.

MS COLLETT: And did you receive training?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Where did you receive that training?

MR MBAMBO: At Butterworth.

MS COLLETT: Anywhere else?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MS COLLETT: Now, when did you first go to the Butterworth base?

MR MBAMBO: I first started when - I got to the base at Butterworth in 1994.

MS COLLETT: Where were you prior to that?

MR MBAMBO: I was called from my home here in Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Had you been at any other base before or any APLA stonghold before going to the Butterworth base in 1994?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Where had you been?

MR MBAMBO: At Bizana.

MS COLLETT: Did you receive training at Bizana as well?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Who called you to come to the base in Butterworth in 1994?

MR MBAMBO: It is Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: Now you've heard your co-applicant testify under oath about certain missions in which you and he were involved?

MR MBAMBO: I heard him.

MS COLLETT: The first one that he testified about was the attack on a bus near Fort Knox.

MR MBAMBO: I remember.

MS COLLETT: And he mentioned that is was your house that they stayed at when they launched that attack.

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that you have made an amnesty application with regard to that Fort Knox incident?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: The basis for that amnesty application being that you housed or your house was used as the accommodation during that attack, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Were you actually involved in the actual attack?

MR MBAMBO: No, I did not participate except that they stayed at my house, those who undertook the attack.

MS COLLETT: When was it in relation to that incident that you went to the Butterworth base?

MR MBAMBO: It was after we had attacked the Bahai Church at two.

MS COLLETT: Were you a party of the - were you a member of the party that attacked the Bahai Church?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: How did you get information or how were you instructed to be involved in this?

MR MBAMBO: Because I was called or they were told to return with me and had been sent a driver to drive for them because they were required to go to that church. It was said we must all go because they could not move from the church and come and pick me up, we had to all go together and then move together to, via that other way.

MS COLLETT: So who actually gave you your instructions to become involved in this Bahai Faith attack?

MR MBAMBO: It is Africa, the late TNT who was the commander. It was Africa TNT who was, who is the late TNT who was our unit commander.

MS COLLETT: Now, you've heared the sequence of events that your co-applicant has sketched about the Bahai Faith attack, is there anything that you would like to add to what he has said?

MR MBAMBO: About the Bahai attack? No, there is nothing to add there.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that everything that he said is the truth regarding the attack on the Bahai?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Do you you know what the aim of the mission was?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I know.

MS COLLETT: What was it?

MR MBAMBO: The aim of that mission was to kill all those white people in that church and to get whatever valuables they could get, money, guns and a car, anything that could be taken from them.

MS COLLETT: Taken from them for what purpose?

MR MBAMBO: They should be taken and then be property of APLA.

MS COLLETT: And did any of you know how many white people there were going to be in the church?

MR MBAMBO: I would not lie, even at the time Jimmy Jones gave the order I was not there.

MS COLLETT: TNT didn't tell you how many people were going to be in that church?

MR MBAMBO: I would be accusing him unfairly.

MS COLLETT: So the intention was to go there and kill the white people?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did that happen?

MR MBAMBO: It happened.

MS COLLETT: And after that attack, did you then go back to Butterworth?

MR MBAMBO: After the attack we moved straight to Butterworth.

MS COLLETT: Now you've heard your co-applicant say that he did not know whether you were a member of APLA or not, what do you say to that?

MR MBAMBO: It's the truth that he did not know me.

MS COLLETT: But did Jimmy Jones know that you were a member of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you know Jimmy Jones before this occasion?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I knew him.

MS COLLETT: How did you come to know him?

MR MBAMBO: I know him from a long time back. He used to take soldiers to my place who came to undertake operations beside.

MS COLLETT: Now after you'd returned to Butterworth instructions were then given that you return to participate in three further attacks, at the Nahoon Dam turnoff, at Da Gama and at the Highgate Hotel, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Who gave those instrutions?

MR MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: Were you present?

MR MBAMBO: I was present.

MS COLLETT: What was the purpose of the operation?

MR MBAMBO: The aims of the operations, firstly at Da Gama it was to hit that bus that carried the white employees going there too from East London, to hit that other bus that moves from King William's Town, a school bus carrying white kids from King William's Town to school here in East London, to hit the Station Bar there at the station at East London in town and the Highgate Hotel.

MS COLLETT: Now you had been a member of APLA for a period of time at this stage, did those attacks appear to be in line with APLA policy?

MR MBAMBO: As to whether the orders were in line with the policy is not the concern of the soldier given the instructions. As a soldier there is democracy but it is so limited, there are things you may not query, you simply have to do them even if you think they are wrong. If they have given you an instruction to do you must do so. Your duty is to execute orders, not to query them.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question now. The question was, were they in accordance with APLA policy? That is so isn't it, that is the question you put?

Were these attacks in accordance with APLA policy?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, those attacks were in line with APLA policy. As you can see we were instructed to go and commit or to undertake those attacks.

MS COLLETT: So you proceeded to the greater East London area to carry out these attacks, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Were you provided with firearms?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: By whom?

MR MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: And which was the first attack that you undertook?

MR MBAMBO: We started with Da Gama but because time had moved against us we had to abandon that one. The first attack ended up being the Highgate Hotel.

MS COLLETT: Can you explain the circumstances to the Commission?

MR MBAMBO: I can explain.

MS COLLETT: Go ahead.

MR MBAMBO: We moved from Friday after having - having arrived at Mdantsane on the Thursday we moved from Friday morning. We put out arms in a bag, we moved to the Highway terminus, we boarded a taxi going to Mount Ruth. This taxi carries about five people and we too were five. When we embarked it was full, the driver came an he drove.

Along the way to Mount Ruth there was a place that used to be a nursery where people buy pot plants and trees as you are facing Mount Ruth. We told the driver to stop and alight from the car, truly he did so because he saw the guns we had pointing at him.

Our own driver tried to drive the car but it would not start. We then called the driver back to come and drive for us. We then proceeded to Da Gama. When we got there we noted that the bus had already gone into the yard. We turned back.

We used a black road behind the railway line going to that intersection going to the Nahoon Dam that joins the road we were using at the freeway. We stopped there waiting for that school bus that carries school kids. It did not arrive. We then realised that our time might have been against us.

During that process a panel van Volkswagen old kombi arrived, it had two white people who were men. As it was at the stop sign stopping there, Africa Kid Andile George alighted and shot at the minibus or kombi. As that process was unfolding we saw a black man who had been hit from behind.

He ran trying to go to Mdantsane station. We followed Kid so that he could come back into the car so that we could leave. We left the car at six about works and we gave the driver about R20 and told him to leave. We left and went to other ama Africa at the shacks at six.

MS COLLETT: Yes, and then?

MR MBAMBO: When we left there we went to the highway, it was late now. I would not remember the time precisely but it was quite late. When we got to the highway trying to get transport we realised that instead of highjacking a car let us use a taxi going to 14. We boarded this taxi with other people.

People were alighting along the way, along the way. When the driver was alone with us we pointed our guns to the driver and told him, commandeered the taxi in essence. The driver drove according to our instructions. When we were about near the corner of the old deport that is the no more a depot, a driver saw an oncoming kombi.

Our driver went into that one, drove his kombi into this other one. We also ran out of the car afte he had left the car and we went through the, near to the depot.

We went over the depot, next to the depot. That's where we saw a Ford Sierra that was a station wagon. It had stopped in a house that was a shebeen. We resolved to go and try to get that Ford Sierra from that house. We went in, myself, Africa Kid. I cannot remember the third person.

We forced the people to lie down and asked who the driver of the car was. He was pointed out and we demanded the keys and he told us the keys are at the room. We went with him, me and Africa Kid, to that room. There was one Africa at the door. In the room we told him that we want keys and he told him that we want keys.

Someone who was a police was there. We told him: "Guy we know you are a policeman but we don't want you to disturb us". Indeed he gave us the keys but because we had seen this policeman we kind of realised we would not reach our destination. Let us take this one so that they cannot follow us from behind thinking that this one may be hurt, the original driver of the car. Indeed we took him to the car.

At the yard of the house me and himself, he reversed the car out of the ...[indistinct]. Other Africans also came and we then left. We forced him out of the car near about Berlin. We left him there and we came back to Mdantsane and we filled with petrol at Mobil and we went to town intending going to the bar at the station in town but we went via Cambridge.

But when we were passing the Highgate Hotel we noted that the Highgate Hotel was full, kind of there was a disco thing on. We went to make that u-turn at the station, railway station and we came back. The car was now facing Mdantsane. Africa Dumisane Ncamazana was at the side of the hotel, he prepared the rifle grenade and he hit.

I do not know what the driver did what, perhaps he may have been loose with his clutch control and the car moved a bit and the rifle grenade hit the wall and we then left.

MS CORLETT: Yes, and where did you go?

MR MBAMBO: We dumped the car at six, we wiped off the our fingerprints and left it there and went to my house and slept.

MS COLLETT: And the following day?

MR MBAMBO: The following day it was a Saturday, we awoke and left to see another Africa Sipho Fitjane at six. We stayed there the whole day. Late we returned to my house and slept at three, the place is at three.

The following morning, that is on the Sunday, we left trying to find a car. Late night that same night on Sunday we found a car. A gentleman was conversing with two ladies in a Honda Ballade, an old Honda Ballade. Other Africans passed and myself, Luvuyo our dirver we returned and I pointed the driver to alight. Luvuyo took the car and he went to the other Africans. I also followed after he got to those other Africans. We boarded the car and left to go to three.

We hid the car at a place so that we could see it from my house, we slept. The following morning on the Monday, that was the 28th of March, TNT left and Luvuyo our driver and collected the car. We waited for them near Gobusane. We boarded the car, slowly we went to Da Gama.

At Da Gama - we got there early, we passed - I cannot remember whether it's the second, first turn right, we turned waiting for the bus in order to see it appearing so that we could go behind it. That did not go according to plan because there was a car between ourselves and the bus. We went behind it following the bus and that car.

As the bus is required to stop because of cars moving past before going into the gates we had the chance to pass the bus and having resolved to hitting it with the rifle grenades. But we then discovered that no, this rifle grenade cannot be used because the distance is too close. There was this ultacation: let it be it with the rifle grenade or no, let it be hit by rifles.

Ultimately Kid and TNT alighted and hit these guns that they shot at the bus. After they had shot at the bus it was difficult for us to alight because we discovered that there were people that were hitting back. It was only later that we discovered that it was security guards who were escorting the bus and those waiting at Da Gama, they hit at us. We did not know because our commander did not tell us that the bus was being escorted by security guards. They hit back but ultimately we got the chance to alight and leave that car. It was myself and Africa Dumisani.

The driver was left behind but he also alighted. These two Africans who alighted first were fighting, Africa Kid was hit. During that process I saw Africa TNT falling. As the shooting was still going on I heard the helicopters swirling around. I knew that the helicopter was going to overpower us now.

As Africa Dumisani was hitting back at these Africans, I mean Afrikaners, I saw that these two Africans who had fallen were also still shooting and I told the Africans: "Africans this helicopter is going to give us problems. You cannot run away, you cannot go back to the car because the car is already damaged and they are shooting so much that we cannot use that car. Africans you must run away but we cannot leave you like this you see. Africans I'm going to hit you now, shoot you".

The African said: "No, don't shoot us, we are going to fight back. If we see that it is too hard we are going to hit and kill ourselves". Ultimately I ran away. I do not know whether Dumisani and Africa who was the driver ran to whatever direction. There's a small path there moving from this railway line going to Da Gama, I used that road.

I saw a coloured man on his knees. I saw that he was afraid and he begged me not to shoot him. I told him: "No, I'm running for my own business" and I passed him. At that time I was having a 7.65 and the rifle grenade that was in my lumber jacket. As I was passing that railway line it fell, I could not take it. I ran on past the graveyard at Mdantsane and went to two, that's where I got clothes to change. Went on to other Africans. I found other clothes to change.

I went on to another Africa, he gave me money. I told him that I need to go to King William's Town. They told me: "There are two other ama Africa you're moving with, we are told that money has been asked for them because they had been injured". I asked for money to go to King William's town and they gave me the money. I told him to keep my gun as I'm going to King William's Town, I could come and collect it after, knowing that I'm going to Butterworth.

I went to Butterworth, getting there I went to ...[indistinct] Mamma, the restaurant in town. I entered through the front, bought drinks and tobacco. I asked Mtutuze and they said they do not know - I asked from other ladies and they said they do not know where Mtutuze was, I must go back and check the flats there.

At the back I found other Africans, Nge, Subusiso and others. I asked Africa: "Where is Matura"? and they said: "No, we do not know Africa". And I asked: "Where is Africa JJ"?, they said: "Perhaps he's at work, you can go and check him at work". I did not go to his work, I went straight to the base.

I found other new ama Africa coming from Cape Town. I talked with them, conversed after having greeted them and then I took this base commander and said to him: "It think you must accompany me to go to town so that we can check this Africa JJ". On our way to town we met policemen from Transkei moving with African Tona who was driving for us during the Bahai attack. He was leading the police, that's how we were then arrested. When we got to the top, as we were walking on foot we saw JJ and all the other Africans whom we had met in town and others in other places. We were all arrested and we were beaten at the barracks. From there we were taken to Umtata to the police station Fort Gail. We did not know the reason for our arrest. I did not know the reasons and others said they did not know. Clearly I did not know the reason because that was the first time I got there, I was new around there.

Three days after our incarceration at Fort Gail police station we were taken to Doctor Malinga at Umtata near the rank by the police. When we left Doctor Malinga they put us at Wellington prison, that's where I got a chance to tell JJ about what happened at East London. I told him everything about what happened in East London.

MS COLLETT: And what did he say?

MR MBAMBO: He asked: "Where are the other ama Africa"? I told him we split during the Da Gama attack. Tow of them, I'm sure they are arrested or they are killed, others I do not know where they went but I know they ran away. I had run straight thereto knowing that I could

not go back home because I did not know what happened to those Africans.

I would not know whether they were going to take the police straight to us, to me at home. And he said I shall then be required after leaving that place, I must come back and come and check these Africans here so that they can come back to him to give a report back in order to corroborate my story.

I stayed about three days there. We spent even the Easters there, voting happened even during then. We then left for Xoa. We stayed at Xoa, at Butterworth and then I came back to check these Africans. I found Africa Dumisani. I returned to Butterworth with him and he gave the report back in the fashion he saw how things went.

MS COLLETT: Now, you stood trial in East London for the Highgate Hotel, the Da Gama incident and the incident at the Nahoon Dam, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you tell the truth at that trial?

MR MBAMBO: At the Court? I lied at the Court.

MS COLLETT: Why?

MR MBAMBO: To lie at the Court is - at the Court I tried to minimize my own guilt so that the Court could find me not guitly. I tried at the Court not expose Tjabane although his name was raised as the person who sent us but the police could not go and arrest him just like that without us being State Witnesses against him. That's what I lied about, trying to dub the situation of him being mentioned during the trial. That is the policy of our soldiers, that if you are arrested you must not tell about others, you must face the music alone.

That's why other soldiers when they are in trouble, noting that they are going to be arrested and having been injured, they must rather kill themselves than to stay on and be arrested and be tortured. They're more likely to sing when the are arrested and tortured, better to kill themselves.

MS COLLETT: Now you made a statement to the police, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that statement true?

MR MBAMBO: No, it was not true.

MS COLLETT: But you made that statement, that statement was admitted as evidence against you in your trial in East London, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now you made certain allegations about your co-applicant in that statement and in the trial, were all those allegations true?

MR MBAMBO: Which accusations?

MS COLLETT: Well you probably heard your co-applicant being questioned about being involved in the shooting at the Bahai Church, when he said that he was not involved he was actually at the door. Is that true for example?

MR MBAMBO: At the church in Mdantsane?

MS COLLETT: That's right.

MR MBAMBO: It is true that he was at the door at the church in Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Now you were convicted in the East London Court and sentenced to 16 years imprisonment, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Now when did you for the first time decide to apply for amnesty?

MR MBAMBO: There were people who arrived in prison. We were called by Mr Killian because he knew that we were members of APLA and other members of MK. I cannot remember when it was but he called us and told us that there is a Truth Commission and there are forms that have arrived that we must fill so that we can go and appear there and ask for forgiveness for those things we did. Indeed MK people filled them in.

We ourselves phoned Patricia de Lille and told her that these forms arrived here, what must we do and she said: "Africa, don't fill those forms in, I'll tell you when to fill those forms in". Indeed we did not fill those forms in until she indeed told us that we must fill those forms in because there are lawyers who have been tasked by the PAC. For example here in East London it's Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo, they're going to get there and advise you how to fill them in, those forms that is.

MS COLLETT: And did that happen?

MR MBAMBO: No, Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo never arrived, instead when we phoned their secretary, said they are at Goedemoede, P.E. and other prisons but they had not gone to them, to us, the closest prison to them.

MS COLLETT: Yes, and did somebody come to assist you to fill in those forms?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, an attorny called Mr Mbanja coming from King William's Town came and helped us fill those forms.

MS COLLETT: Now how did you fill in those forms?

MR MBAMBO: We filled those forms, lying sometimes because we were told that we must implicate people who are alive we must rather implicate those who are deceased like Africa Sabelo Pama and those Africans we had been moving with during those attacks. The one who told us that is Jimmy Jones and Africa Mbandazayo and Africa Baieti.

MS COLLETT: Is that prior to you filling in these forms?

MR MBAMBO: We were told about this before Patricia de Lille told us to fill these forms in as she had told us to stop and wait until she had told, after they had investigated certain things.

MS COLLETT: Why did you agree to lie on these forms?

MR MBAMBO: The reason why we agreed is because they said it will be easier for us to be released by the TRC if we used people's names who are deceased already.

MS COLLETT: And is that why you agreed to do this?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, why did you submit a subsequent amnesty affidavit in this matter?

MR MBAMBO: It was because we then later noted that what our Africans had told us was not true, clearly they were selling us out know. For example when we made those amensty applicantions by Mr Mbanja from King William's Town he said we must make application for the Bahai Church attack because it was still on trial and we did not do so.

But what happened, when we saw Ntonga and Jimmy Jones, that they want to sell us out - we were still going to the lower Court in Mdantsane being represented by Mr Ntonga as he's an attorney working for the PAC. One day as we were in prison we were called as people were being visited and we met a lady and a gentleman saying they are coming from the Legal Aid Board at Mdantsane and we asked them: "What is the problem"? and they said they want to provide us with an attorney for the case we are going to appear for at the Supreme Court and I said: "No, Sisi, who told you we do not have an attorney because if you are saying you are coming from Mdantsane, at the Legal Aid Board at Mdantsane you are supposed to know that our attorney is Mr Ntonga".

We then realised, okay these ladies cannot just come here, there is something Mr Ntonga has said to them perhaps he had told that - maybe he's not representing us anymore. Clearly these people are coming from East London and when they come from the Courts at East London they must know that we are being represented by Mr Ntonga. And then we realised that he has something wrong with him.

It did not stop there, Mr Mbandazayo came there very hurriedly. After we had eaten our supper at about three they were about to close there and he said: "Africa let us make applications for the Bahai attack because we had not done so", we said: "Okay". He called me, Mxzesiko, Dumisani Ncamazana, Oupa Jlomo and another Africa, I cannot remember his name. He called us hurriedly so. He talked in his cellular phone and said: "Wait for these people, I'm coming right now", and he said to us: "Africans I'm in a rush, please sign here. I know this case, I'm going to fill everything else in at my office".

We though okay, the African knows this case. For that matter we had been represented by him in the beginning when we were sentenced. He left. I then realised there is something I do not understand with this African. Some day another African said: "This case of Bisho we must not go on trial, we must simply go to the Truth Commission, there is no reason to go on trial with this case". We saw it the same way, it did not make any problem.

We had no attorney for some time, until we were represented by Sally Corlett and she said she can represent us in Court, okay. We gave her what we were going to say in Court. Another Africa came, Mbandazayo. He had seen in the newspapers that we were going to be represented by Sally Corlett in Court and he asked them: "How can you ask to be representated by a white person while you know that we around Africans". For that matter I have told you that you must not go on trial with this case".

We responded by saying: "Africa, you told us we must sign those forms without us having filled them in and we realised later that you said, we realised later ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Sorry can the person ...[intervention]

MR MBAMBO: Mr Mbandazyo came and he said: "How come that you ask a white person to represent you whilst we are around being attorneys of the party? Okay Africans, sign these forms". We've signed those forms having not read those forms. Because he was in a rush he left. We realised later that this person came to rob us. Our mistake was not to read those forms.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what sort of forms they were?

MR MBAMBO: I've not seen those forms again, I do not know.

MS COLLETT: Now, how many forms did you sign without seeing the content thereof?

MR MBAMBO: The forms that we signed were those that we couldn't read, the ones that said we were not, we were against being represented by Sally Corlett plus those he said we must simply fill in our signatures as applications to the Commission and he would fill everything in in his office about the case as he knew everything about it.

Later we thought: no we want this case to go on trial because we realised something is wrong now as they do not want this case to go on trial. We felt we must go on with this case. In Court at Bisho before this case we had a serious altecation with Mr Ntonga and Mr Mbandazayo and they said we must not go on trial with this case because if we go on they are going to represent us.

We refused that they must represent us. We had a serious altecation and they said we are not going to get through otherwise we are not going to even appear before the Commission: "All Africans are going to be angry with you for having been represented by a white person in our presence" and we said: "No, we don't care".

The case went on as it was going on. I requested Sally Corlett as to, can she not represent us at the Commission and she complied. She gave us forms to fill in that we are going to be represented by her at the Commission.

We duly did so and we told here: "If we are represented at the Commission, please tell the Commission we have stopped being represented by Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo. He must send those forms that was sent to the Commission through our names, those that he said he was going to fill in in his office and then bring them to us so that we could see them". It did not come back.

Indeed the Commission sent back those forms that were sent by them. That form came back blank with our signature only. What he did, what Mr Mbandazayo did was to go to the police and ask for a confession statement or confessions statements we made during our arrest and tied them to this with a stapler and sent them the Commission.

I showed him this at the Court in Bisho and said to him: "Is this the reason why you said we must not go to the Court"? and he did not answer. Till today he does not greet me. What he did now just recently, he met Dumisani's mother and said: "Ja, your sons have sold out, they took Tjobane to the TRC and to the Court. They are not going to be saved by the Commission".

To say a person is: "sold out" is to just insult a person. I do not know how they can say such a thing as I'm still in prison. Today I've come to ask for amnesty as I have come to ask for forgiveness. This matter that he was going to say this is what happened to the Commission passed.

The case went on, the police went to take Tona who was our driver during the Bahai matter and made this, and turned him into a State witness. Tona's statement is the same as ours. The Court could not hold us accountable.

The Court decided that Jimmy Jones must be brought in as a State witness to testify against us. He did not do so. After three days saying that he's consulting with Mr Mbandazayo he could not. He said he was going to come to the Commission.

We called ...[indistinct] Mpashlele as the witness in our favour. He told the Court the report back about all these missions including that of the Bahai Faith Tjabane got and he thanked him. That is what he said at Court.

During the case, Tjabane arrived in prison on a Saturday. They arrived at the same time with my mother who came to visit me. Africa Jimmy Jones had called myself and Dumisani, Jlomo and Siko to tell us that we must change what we told the Court because what we did was to sell out and to change that which we were going to say to the Commission because he's not going to go there, he's going to go and deny everything.

We told him: "Africa, you see you don't command us here, it is not at the base here. For that matter we are not guerillas we are just civilians and you cannot tell us what we must do and that which we must not do, this is not the army".

He sweared to us and said we are people supposed to be killed and my mother was also telling him a lot of things, he left. We told the Court about all of this because he's now threatening us. The Court ordered him never to go back to prison.

It was not long thereafter another African came. The last time I saw him was in 1995, Numanilili who aksed what madness we are doing, that we mention Tjobane at the TRC and at the Court. As we were trying to answer he swore at me and hit me. It was in prison. I hit him very hard, I don't want to lie, I hit him very hard, I hit him. He left saying that he was going to charge me and I lay a charge against him too.

MS COLLETT: So is the gist of what you're saying that you were intimidated not mention Jimmy Jones as a person who was involved in giving you orders?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: But nonetheless you did in fact mention Jimmy Jones to be the person who gave you the orders at the Bahai trial and you have done so in your subsequent amnesty application, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that in fact the truth, was Jimmy Jones the person who gave the orders for you to carry out these missions?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: No you've mentioned that the application that was filled in by the attorney in connection with the Bahai Faith Mission came back blank. What do you actually mean by that? What do you mean by blank?

MR MBAMBO: The application he had said he was going to fill in at his own office and we must simply append our signatures came back from the Commission with our signatures only, clearly he had sent it like that. He had sent that with our confession statements we had made at the police. Clearly he was selling us out, protecting Tjabane in order to have us staying in prison.

MS COLLETT: I'm going to show you an application at page 8 of the record, will you have a look at that? Is this the application you're talking about?

MR MBAMBO: ...[no English translation]

MS COLLETT: And this annexure that is annexed to it, is this what you are alledging is the statement that you made to the police?

Mr Chairman, I'm referring him to 14A which is annexed to this application. It goes to 15A to 14R.

MR LAX: Just for the record Mr Collett, that is the confession that he made to the police that was used in the trial?

MS COLLETT: That's correct Mr Chairperson, that is the confession that was made that was rule admissable at the East London trial.

Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it is.

MS COLLETT: Now, after you had seen this application, is it correct that you then requested that there be a supplementary affidavit prepared on behalf of both you and your co-applicant setting out what you regarded as full disclosure?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, is this application that you've just been shown, that is the one at page 8, the application that as, I understood you to say, was returned in blank with only your signature and your statement attached to it? Is this what you were shown, this typed application?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't blank, it was in fact filled in?

MS COLLETT: Maybe I can be of some assistance Mr Chairman.

Is your understanding of this statement or when you said it was blank did you mean that there was no handwriting on the actual amnesty form, is that what you're trying to say?

MR LAX: With all due respect Mrs Collett, that's an incredibly leading question in the light of the Judge's questions. Blank means blank, blank doesn't mean with writing and typing and stuff all over it. You put the question to him, you're a lawyer, you should know what you mean when you use the word blank.

MS COLLETT: Let me try and clarify it in a different fashion.

Had you seen the contents of this application form before?

MR MBAMBO: Blankness is that Mr Mbandazayo did not write what he was supposed to have written on the form.

ADV SANDI: What did he write instead Mr Mbambo? Did he write anything at all?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, there are small things he wrote.

ADV SANDI: Can you point them out? Point them out please.

MR MBAMBO: If I'm given an opportunity to read it, yes.

ADV SANDI: Okay let's start with page 8, did he write anything there?

MR MBAMBO: Page 8 he wrote my name, surname, my address and where I stay, my date of birth and my place of birth, that I'm a member of the PAC and the liberation movement I was a member of, that is APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wrote down what appears there, this has been typed onto the form, that was put onto the form? Was that put on before or after you had signed the form that you appear to have done at page 13?

MR MBAMBO: It was filled after I had signed.

MS GCABASHE: What did you expect to see there when you got your form back, per your discussion with Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBAMBO: I expected firstly, before he sends it to the TRC he first go to prison to visit us so that we could see them as he had promised because he could send things on our behalf with us not having seen them.

Secondly we expected that he would explain the truth as to who had sent or who was our commander.

MS GCABASHE: Because you had discussed these matters with him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, we had discussed these matters with him and for that matter he knew them because he's very close to the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at page 15 there's another application of yours, do you see it?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who prepared this one?

MR MBAMBO: It was being prepared or it was prepared by Mrs Sally Collett.

ADV SANDI: When you say that, you mean that is her own handwriting?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot remember who was writing there but I remember this statement.

MR LAX: Just one thing puzzles me, there are two different handwritings on here. Who filled out the rest?

MR MBAMBO: I have no other attorney who was representing me after having had an altecation with the PAC ones.

MR LAX: That's not the point.

MR MBAMBO: I'm trying to say I do not know who Mrs Collett may have used or whether it was myself who wrote here but I do not think it was my own handwriting.

MR LAX: You see there are a lot of blanks on this form, were those blanks filled out before you signed it or after you signed it?

MR MBAMBO: The person who was asking me to sign something that was not written on is one, it was Mr Mbandazayo and I think we have passed the one of Mr Mbandazayo.

MR LAX: No, no, you're not answering my question.

MR MBAMBO: I'm trying to say Sir, this question I think in my foolishness you must have asked during the discussion about that other form of Mr Mbandazayo.

MR LAX: I'm referring to this form, the one that you say Mrs Collett filled out for you. In particular, page 4 is blank completely. Do you see that? You don't tell us what your justification was for doing that thing.

MR MBAMBO: The reason for this, in the mission I was involved in I was not directly involved. What was happening is that I kept those Africans who had done that that's why I did not have anything to write on page 4.

MR LAX: Why don't you say: "I have nothing to say because these people only stayed in my house"? That would have been the right answer for that spot.

MR MBAMBO: I felt that I must apply for that case of John Knox Bokwe despite my being absent because it involves me because those people who are involved there stayed at my house before they went and after they came back from that attack.

MS GCABASHE: This is the one where you were making full disclosure even though you were not directly involved in this particular incident?

MR MBAMBO: I do not say everything there. I just explained that there a kombit that carried teachers was hit and those people stayed in my house before they did that and after they did that they came back to my house.

MR LAX: So if I understand you correctly, you made application for that incident because you wanted to come to the Commission and be open about things that had happened, that you had been indirectly involved in, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: No, I did the application for amnesty and realised that these two, that is my involvement about harbouring those people who were involved in that attack I must also include not that I came to the Commission in order to talk about things I was not involved in.

There is one thing I was not involved in, the one of that minibus of John Knox Bokwe.

MR LAX: You see again I'm slightly confused by your statement because you told us in your evidence which we've now interrupted, that Jimmy Jones brought other people to stay with you while they went on other operations. You haven't said a word about any of those operations.

MR MBAMBO: That's true Sir. I said that Jimmy Jones did bring people in the past but I did not explain anything about those operations, I have a reason Sir why I did not explain about those operations that we did by those people that were initially brought to me before these ones came.

MR LAX: Tell us the reason.

MR MBAMBO: The reason that those who first came to me about whom I did not make an application form is that I do not know what they did or what they did during their staying at my place. That is the reason why anything relating to them I did not include in my application for amnesty because I did not know what they did during their stay at my place.

MR LAX: You see the fact of the matter is that you could still be charged for harbouring them at that time and you should have been adivsed to apply for those.

I put to you really that the reason you applied for this one is that your co-applicant applied for this one and he wanted to just make sure that you got amnesty for it because he mentions you and the fact that they stayed with you. That's really the reason why you applied for this one.

MR MBAMBO: No Sir, that is not so because he too, Dumisani Ncamazana, that case he was not charged for. It's me who said: "Sir, Broer, this case even after our release from prison may be investigated and we we'll be found out. It's better that we confess to the TRC despite the police not knowing anything about who did that"?

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that both of you applied for that and that's why you've referred to it.

MR MBAMBO: I do not know Sir, as to whether you cannot understand me properly. As I'm saying, Dumisani Ncamazana, the one who was involved in that case and the shooting of that kombi, it's me who advised him that: "This case Sir, maybe even if we are released by the TRC while the police may be investigating that case and discover who were involved, it's better that you include this case with your request to the Commission". That's how we made these applications.

MS COLLETT: Do you have any information about the missions that were carried out by the other people that used your house as a stayover?

MR MBAMBO: No, I know nothing.

MS COLLETT: Were you ever informed of the nature or extent or what actually happened on any of those missions at any stage?

MR MBAMBO: No, I heard nothing, nobody told me anything.

MS COLLETT: Now, in connection with your amnesty application now, how do you feel, in retrospect, about the victims and the persons who suffered injury and damage as a result of the missions in which you were involved?

MR MBAMBO: You know when I'm thinking about the victims and their families I feel very hurt because you know their kids you see, were - those people who were congregating and worshiping God and we came and shot them, took their cars from them, I feel hurt very much. It's worse when I hear that these people are not South African Citizens, they were coming from Iran. They too know all liberation movements in South Africa, never had problems with Iran. That's one country that supported our liberation movements.

But it did happen that we were sent to that church and instructed to do what we did there not knowing where those people are staying, we were only told about white people who were in that church who we were supposed to go and attack.

I do not want to lie to those people because I'm in front of them, that indeed during the time that we were sent there we knew that it was not white people there, it was people who were foreigners like people from Iran. I would not lie and say: if we knew that we would then have left them, I'm sure we would have hitted them but I'm very, very, sorry. I apoligise for even those soldiers I was moving with, some of whom are now late, we apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that if you had known these people were not South African white people but were people from Iran, who you have just said had always supported the freedom struggle, you would still have hit them? Did I hear you correctly?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, you heard me correctly Sir. We would have hit them because we had been instructed to go and shoot them.

CHAIRPERSON: So your attitude was if you'd been instructed to do something it didn't matter if it was right or wrong, you would do it?

MR MBAMBO: That is so Sir.

MR LAX: May I just add one thing?

It would also not have concerned you, is it not correct, as to whether it was PAC policy or APLA policy or not, you wouldn't even have considered that, you just got an order and you executed the order?

MR MBAMBO: You see Sir, the duty of a soldier Sir is to follow orders. Whether the order is right or wrong, as a soldier you are a human being and you can see what is right or wrong but you are told: "Man do this", you do not have the right to ask, you simply have to do that. You may ask only later as to, if you have any questions. That's how the rules of soldiers work.

MR LAX: You see my question is directed, not about the morality of the issue, not about the ethics of the issue but APLA was a political formation, it wasn't just an army and it had policies and principles that it stood for.

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR LAX: Now if you received a command that was directly against such policies, would you have carried it out?

MR MBAMBO: I would have obeyed it because that is above me.

MR LAX: So even if the command undermined your struggle and your commander was behaving completely out of line you would have still obeyed that command?

MR MBAMBO: That is so Sir. You know Sir, in the PAC that is a democratic organisation. APLA too has democracy but the army democracy changes, it is not equal with that of the PAC, it changes.

There are things in the army that you cannot question even if they are wrong and think that we may ask: "Why are things going this way"?, you must simply do as ordered.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should know Mr Zukile Mbambo that you are not applying for amnesty as a member of an army, you are applying for amnesty in respect of acts that you alledge you committed with a political objective. You are now telling us that you had no such objective, you just would carry out any command that was given to you.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it is so, I simply did what I was ordered. Even now - I know I'm not asking for amnesty for APLA I'm applying for amnesty for myself, Zukile Mbambo who did things under orders of APLA.

MR LAX: You haven't understood the Chairperson's question to you. The issue that you yourself must have had a political objective when you did these things and you're saying you didn't care what the objective was, you just followed the orders.

MR MBAMBO: I'm sorry I did not hear the question of the Chairperson properly, I did not follow it. Clearly what APLA does is political, they are political aims, that is why we were following orders too in doing what we were ordered.

MR LAX: Just one last thing. Take for example the order to shoot the bus full of children at Nahoon, how would that in any way have further APLA or the PAC's political objectives?

MR MBAMBO: You know, with the bus that was supposed to be hit carrying school kids, I was sent there. I must tell you Sir, as I thought - I do not whether I'm right in my thoughts, as I know when they sent me they had different reasons for sending me to that bus that I do not know.

To shoot at a bus full of school kids, as far as my thoughts go, it was to cause the government of the day to be under pressure of the parents of those kids that they free those who are appressed because the oppressed are now hitting at their children, that's how I thought. I do not what the commander, when he told us to do those things, what is motives were.

MR LAX: You see my worry is this, you say that now, the fact of the matter was this was in March 1994 barely a month before the national elections, do you confirm that?

MR MBAMBO: Which one, before I am correctly with you because there are many things we have come here for Sir?

MR LAX: Well all these acts happened in March, all of them?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR LAX: So it doesn't really make any difference which act we talk about.

CHAIRPERSON: You did now about the national elections in May didn't you?

MR LAX: Sorry, it was April the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: April, sorry.

MR MBAMBO: I knew that there were going to be elections in April.

MR LAX: And you knew that that election would transform this country, at least begin that process of transformation, is that not correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I knew.

MR LAX: So how would shooting anybody, no matter who they were at that point in time, put any pressure on a government which would be out of power within a few days, at the most a couple of weeks, how would that make any difference?

MR MBAMBO: Sir as I've said, the shooting of a bus full of school kids or other acts committed then, as I've said that's how I think, it was a way to put that government of the day under pressure, from the parents of those kids, so that he can let people go, that is black people be free. That's they way I think I thought about it. I do not say I was right.

And Sir, I said the reason for the commander to send us to do those things I do not know because that he did not discuss with us. What he does is give us orders and how it must be done.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not ask? You say that you knew the political objectives, why did you not ask your commander? He was somebody you had close contact with, you stayed together with, he was a little bit older than you, why did you not ask him and say: "But what is the purpose of this, they've already given up power"?

MR MBAMBO: No Sir, as I've said, in the army it's not the same with the PAC where you can ask anything you want to ask or want to know. In the army as I've said already, there you do as ordered.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbambo, perhaps at the rist of belabouring the point, when you look back you do not think that perhaps you would have spent your energies better by moving around and campaining for your party, in other words persuading people to vote for the political party you've mentioned in the forthcoming elections?

MR MBAMBO: No, Sir, I'm sure I would have used my energies the correct but there were people who were tasked in that fashion. For that matter Sir, as far as I knew then, the PAC was still in conflict as to whether to go into the elections or not. It only decided very late that it would go into the elections at the time I was a soldier doing my job as a soldier more than doing PAC work as an organisation.

ADV SANDI: On anther issue, you have made mention of names of quite a number of lawyers, did any one of those lawyers explain to how you would have to go about fulfilling the requirements of the Amnesty Law? Was that ever explained to you?

MR MBAMBO: No, there is no attorney that explained to me that in order, except Mrs Sally Collett. There is no other attorney that explained that to me, especially those of the party. Mr Ntonga, the one next to you and Mr Mbandazayo and others, they simply lied to me.

ADV SANDI: Perhaps we should very briefly explain it to you that it is not, to qualify for amnesty is not simply a matter of ...[intervention] Okay thank you, I will withdraw the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.

Why did you join APLA?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for joining APLA, I saw the suffering I was experiencing and the suffering of the Africans in their own land and the oppression from other people who are in fact not indiginous and the way other Africans were being killed when they tried to march, demonstrating against their oppression and the histroy that I studied at school because I was specialising in history at school.

MS COLLETT: What did you think APLA was going to achieve or what was it trying to achieve that attracted you to join it?

MR MBAMBO: What made me join the struggle of APLA, I studied it in the PAC that we as ama Africa wanted our land back from the white man in order to allow the African his dignity back, the dignity of Africans to Africans so that they could govern themselves the way they want in your own land.

MS COLLETT: Now the missions proposed and missions that you carried out and the missions that you know were carried out by APLA, do you think that they were aimed at achieving those objectives?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that why you associated yourself with the missions?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you yourself or were you yourself ever involved in the initial reconnaissance of any of the missions of which you were part?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MS COLLETT: Were you under the impression or did you think that reconnaissance had been done in all missions before they were carried out?

MR MBAMBO: I used to think that it must have been done because they simply returned and told us everything about how - the method to approach it, how this place must be attacked and this made me think that if they knew how this place must be attacked they must have gone there and saw how this place must be attacked.

MR LAX: Sorry, who is they: "they returned", who is "they"?

MR MBAMBO: You see Sir, they say to us we must go and attack a certain place in this fashion ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Who is the "they"? You keep saying "they", who is the "they", which people?

MR MBAMBO: It is commander and the people he uses for reconnaissance.

MR LAX: Which commander? You've got two commanders, you've TNT as your one commander, you've got the base commander and then you've got your operational commander, which commander are you talking about?

MR MBAMBO: I'm talking about the commander from whom we got the orders, Jimmy Jones.

MR LAX: Now who were these other people that went and did the reconnaissance?

MR MBAMBO: It must be other people he used to use. And the reason why I say this is that he knew that he was a working person. He would not get the chance ordinarily from his work and come to East London and check a place, how it must be attacked and how dangerous it would be because was working. That is why I think he used certain people, perhaps is sent to go and check such things.

MR LAX: You see you said to us that you saw those people coming back, I want to know who they were.

MR MBAMBO: I do not remember that Sir.

MR LAX: That was your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it wasn't "coming back", it was "returned", that's the difference.

You said: "because they returned and told us", that implies they left you, they went and they came back to you.

MR MBAMBO: Which instance?

MR LAX: You said these people would go out, they would do their reconnaissance, they returned, they discussed it with us and they gave us their orders. So I don't know which incidents you're talking about, you know what you're talking about but you saw them go out, you saw them come back, you spoke to them, who are you talking about?

MR MBAMBO: When I was talking like that I was responding to Sally Collett, talking generally, not talking about myself in particular. I was generalising that clearly people go and make reconnaissance and come back and then we are told what we must go and do at a certain place.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not generalising, you were asked specifically about yourself and as to whether you ever did any original reconnaissance and your reply was: "I never did original reconnaissance but it must have been done because they returned and told us how the place must be attacked".

It wasn't a generalisation, it was a specific question and you said: "they returned". We want to know who is the "they" who returned and told you how the place must be attacked.

MR MBAMBO: That is true Sir, that's how I put it. At the time I thought I was generalising. I'm sorry that you understood me in a different way.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Now whilst you were a member of APLA, did you ever have any reason to mistrust or to distrust any of the instructions that were given to you to carry out any missions by Jimmy Jones?

MR MBAMBO: No, I never had any reason not to trust what he says to us or his orders.

MS COLLETT: At the time that these missions were carried out, had you been informed - or let me put it this say, had the cadres in the Butterworth base been informed about the suspension of the armed struggle from any commander?

MR MBAMBO: Unless I was not there when they were told, in my presence nothing like that was ever said until Jimmy Jones told me about it in prison, that the elections had taken place and the armed struggle has been suspended.

MS COLLETT: Now, ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry.

He wasn't in the Butterworth base when the armed struggle was suspended, he was at home, he only went to the base in the middle of March, so ...

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairperson with respect, I referred him to the missions in which he participated in. The missions he participated in were after he went back to the base with the others to Jimmy. I'm asking him if whilst he was at that base, before he went on any of those missions, he was ever informed by any commander that the armed struggle had been suspended. I think it's a legitimate question.

MR LAX: Fair enough, sorry.

MS COLLETT: Could we have a response again, I didn't hear.

MR MBAMBO: Unless that was explained in my absence, but during my time at the base no such suspension of arms was ever explained to us until I got to hear about that after the 28th of March coming from the case of Da Gama, being told by the African with other soldiers in prison at Wellington that: "Africans, people have voted and the armed struggle has been suspended".

CHAIRPERSON: Just to clear this up, am I right in my note that you only went to the Butterworth base after you had attacked the Bahai Church?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So up till them you had not been at the Butterworth base, you had been at home or Bizana?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Now having been a soldier of APLA since 1991, what was your duty with regard to taking cognisance of information? To be more specific, were you entitled to take cognisance of information not given by commanders?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question M'am?

MR LAX: Sorry I think that question should be repeated in a slightly different form and it might be better to rather ask: "What kind of information were you allowed to regard, what were your rights as a soldier" etc., because the way you put it is very leading, with respect.

MS COLLETT: I'll rephrase it.

Were you entitled to take information from sources other than your commanders?

MR MBAMBO: No, we were not permitted but that did not mean you may not tell the commander when for example you have seen white people who were perhaps planning to come and attack or you have seen something that may be dangerous to us, not that you may go around gathering information.

MS COLLETT: Did you hear about the armed struggle at all in the newspaper or on the radio, I mean the armed suspension?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Did that affect you in any fashion with regards to your duties as a soldier?

MR MBAMBO: I heard generally that the armed struggle has been suspended and I remember that I asked one African as to: "Man, I heard the armed struggle has been suspended" and he said: "No, I do not know of any such thing" and before he can accept the truth thereof he must be told by the commander and not to be told by member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] you must be told by your commander, you must not be told by members of the PAC that the armed struggle had ended, is that what you're saying?

MR MBAMBO: What I'm saying, that person I asked: "Africa, the armed struggle has been suspended", that's what I was saying. And I asked him what is he saying and he answered and said: "yes African, I heard that", but it's clear like there's no such but the only person I can accept it from is the commander, not a member from the PAC. Members of the PAC must go on with their politics, we don't indulge in politics.

MR LAX: But you see, that's just a fundamental problem with what you're saying. The objects of the PAC were the objects of APLA precisely. APLA was the formation of the PAC, the supreme body of the PAC which is your national meeting, met in UNITRA and decided to end the armed struggle. You hear that as a member of the PAC and as a member of APLA and you then go against that policy because your commander didn't tell you that, I find that very strange to understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You said: the PAC can go on with their politics but it's not going to effect you.

MS GCABASHE: To be fair to the witness he was relating a conversation he had with one of his comrades and in the context of that he gave this explanation about APLA and the PAC politicing, that's how I understood him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept that that was the position, that the PAC could go on with their politics, that you would only accept it if your commander told you?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know Sir, as to whether you heard me what I said. I said Sir: I heard that the armed struggle had been suspended, what then follows is I meet another African and I say: "Africa, have you heard that the armed struggle had been suspended and this person answers and says: he heard that the armed struggle had been suspended but he, that is myself ama Africa cannot follow what has been said by the PAC, that information for me must come from a soldier, that is my commander. The PAC itself must go on with their politics. For me to accept it it must come from a solder, his commander, not myself. You put it as if I said it. I am telling about something said by somebody else.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept it as being the correct reflection of the position?

MR MBAMBO: Yes Sir, you see with us, we are soldiers and as soldiers we only listen to what is said by a senior soldier. Also a thing I was asking from that other African that I heard over the radio, the radio that we do not believe and the newspapers and the television because the government of the day used to spread propaganda using those instruments.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this person?

MR MBAMBO: It's another African called Skalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Skalo? How old is he?

MR MBAMBO: I think we are the same age if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why didn't you go and ask some more senior person or a person in the PAC, as to what the position was?

MR MBAMBO: No, we were just conversing Sir, here in the township. It ended there as we had just conversed, we never thought of going further with it.

MS GCABASHE: You didn't think this man was an authority on this point, you were just having a discussion as comrades?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, we were conversing just as comrades.

ADV SANDI: Ja but surely Mr Mbambo that must have been a very serious rumour? It's not like coming across your friend in the street and he tells you that an accident has happened in the centre of the city in town, that had very serious implications about the political future of your organisation and your participation in those activities.

What would have happened to you if you had gone to ask a more senior person in the PAC or even your commander for that matter, about this rumour? You just ask him: "What is this rumour about"?

MR MBAMBO: As I've said, the time I was talking with that gentleman we were here in the township. There was no commander in our immediate vicinity who I could ask perhaps about this. Our conversation was not a serious one, I just saw something in the news and I was just asking generally: "M'Africa, have you heard such a thing"? and he answered in that fashion and it ended just there.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, so it wasn't very serious but some weeks later you were told to go and kill people, why did you not them say: "But what is this about the end of violence"? Why didn't you then make enquiries?

MR MBAMBO: With this person with whom I was talking, we did not see it as a serious matter. After that I did not move and go and kill people, what followed I was intrcuted to go and kill those people.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you ask your commander, before you went and killed people, precisely what the position was about the cessation of the violence?

MR MBAMBO: As I've said Sir from the beginning, in the army the democracy there is not the same as in the PAC, you don't ask everything that you'd like to know. Your's as a soldier, as a lower person, is to execute the orders given immediately.

MR LAX: I've just got one small aspect I want to ask you. You see you're telling us today that in relation to some of those things you didn't feel so good about doing them, even at the time you did them, correct?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot understand the question.

MR LAX: How did you as a human being, because you're not just a soldier, you're a human being, how did you feel about having to go and kill people?

MR MBAMBO: You see Sir, I don't feel well when I kill a person but those days it was a war in South Africa and I did not think after doing this how must I feel and such things or that what I did, that person his next of kin, how is she or he going to feel. It was a war an I was a soldier, I did not think about those things.

MR LAX: You see, when I put to you the example of the bus order that you got, you said you didn't feel good about that order but you would have carried it out anyway, do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Can the question please be repeated? I did not say such a thing. I said, in connection with that bus - when you asked me how did I feel when it was said I must go and kill school kids in a bus and I answered: "No Sir, my - I" - when you asked me how I felt - in fact you asked how did it get into me: "when your commander instructed you to go and kill school kids? What was his intentions or the intentions of APLA"? and my answer was: "I do not know the motives of my commander, I was simply instructed to go and do that but my thoughts when I was thinking about what he may have thought when he instructed us to do that, I think he may have thought that when many school kids die the parents of those school kids are going to put pressure on the government of the day that: "As you can see, our kids are getting killed, please free those black people". That's what I said Sir.

MR LAX: You see as a soldier, and if you're like any other normal soldier I will assume you didn't like what you had to do but you followed your orders, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: As I've said Sir, to like or not to like, during that time of ware there was no choice of liking or not liking. In fact you did not think as to what you did to this person or to his or her relative, how it's going to effect him or her because during that time of the war I was a soldier Sir. You may ask me now how I feel about those things I can answer you, not as to how I felt then.

MR LAX: So you felt absolutely nothing, you felt numb? You didn't feel good or bad, you didn't even think about what you were doing? Is that a fair way of putting it?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, you are putting it fairly, that is a fair reflection, yes.

MS COLLETT: Was APLA persuing political objectives as far as you were concerned?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you think as an APLA soldier that you were persuing the same political objectives?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Now if you are granted amnesty for the missions in which you were involved, what are your intentions for the future?

MR MBAMBO: My future plans are to return to school so that I can get employment and work for my kids because I've got a lot of kids and build a their future, a corret, a bright future for them so that they cannot live a life that we too had experienced, a life of oppression and ill education or ignorance.

MS COLLETT: Talking from the point of view of now, do you think that violence was good or an adequate way to obtain the liberation of the country?

MR MBAMBO: Violence is not a proper manner to flee a country, that is why our people did not commit violence, instead they fought back. For instance our people in South Africa never, for example, have Umkhonto weSizwe and APLA, the military wings and AZANLA, the military wing of AZAPO, it did not simply occur that way.

At first there was Imbumba manjana, unity, and there we got the ANC and then the PAC and then we got Poko, that's when our people saw that we are trying to negotiate with these people, talking about our own thing, when they respond they kill us. That's when our people decided to make plans to fight back, they created armies. The first one was Poka, another one was they fought back.

I'm trying to say violence is not the correct manner and our people were forced to adopt violence as a method to free themselves, it was not their initial intention or to the armed struggle.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we'll take the adjourment now till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.