MS SOOKA: Father, we would like to welcome you to this hearing of the Truth Commission. We thank you for coming to share with us your story.

SNOEKIE MZAMBU: (s.s.)

MS SOOKA: Father, as is usual we have allocated a commissioner to assist you with the leading of your evidence and I have asked Miss Hlengiwe Mkhize to assist you.

MS MKHIZE: We would like to thank you for having been able to come before the Commission. We know you are a very committed person as you have explained to us in the morning but before you give us a testimony can you tell us more about yourself as to who are you in the Alex community, how long you stayed in this place, before you tell us more about your story.

REV MZAMBU: I am Reverend B S Mzambu of the Methodist Church at Alexandra. I have been here for such a long time, approximately 40 years.

MS MKHIZE: Thanks. Now I will give you the time to tell us more about the harassment in Alexandra during the time from 1976. Here in Alexandra there are many reverends and we form a group which works with the community. I will start from 1986, I will forget about 1976 because others are coming to report on that. During 1986 - before I go on I would like to ask the commission as to whether they have called all the people who were involved to come and ask for

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forgiveness for things that they have done within the community and also as to why they didn't come before the Commission. Or maybe they would ask we, we have seen them to point them out to come before the Commission. People within the Alexandra community have been harassed in a horrible manner therefore they had to stand on their feet, especially reverends and bishops, to help the people. It was terrible, especially when it comes to burying our people. I have a letter, I don't know whether I can be given permission to read them, were written by magistrates, refusing us to bury our people who were killed by government officials.

MS MKHIZE: Thanks. I would like to agree with you that all those people who were involved in harassing the people in violation of human rights shall come out and tell their story. However, I would like us to go to 1986 where you made some application to bury 18 deceased.

REV MZAMBU: During 1986 we buried some people in Alexandra. These victims were killed by Inkatha members and policemen. Those police used to hit at any target, they hit all the people, young children and also women. And these are the people I am asking about, why don't they come out and explain as to what they did. For example there was one lady who was shot at the gate, they just shot her while she was standing at her gate. She is also one of the people we had to bury. As a group we met 1983, it was somewhere before the 16th May. We were reverends and we were trying to find out as to how we can help the people, especially those who lost relatives during the violence. In my statement I said 13th Avenue and it was 10th Avenue. We couldn't go out because we had to also go for a hiding and escape because it

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was like a battlefield. People were killed at the time, they were inside their house and they were surrounded by police. Their names were, the first one is Victor Banda, Colin Dothli, Elias Nduli, Woes Dube, Saphinium Dagane, Abion Makateni, Bele Sangwane, Joseph Pefadu. All these people were killed in one house which was surrounded by police and I would like to know where are these police who killed these people, why don't they come before the Commission and say we did this and that.

MS MKHIZE: In order for us to get your story very clear we can pause there. As you have called out the list of the people who were killed by the police how in your own opinion can we help the Commission to find out as to what the people were doing inside the house. Were they having a committee meeting or was it a political meeting.

REV MZAMBU: As I said, we were in church. I didn't know what they were doing but what we heard during the service was that these were comrades, they were just sitting there. What is surprising is that while we were still preparing to bury them the magistrate in this letter before me, it is written enquiry to Mr L Mendelsohn. This was from the Chief Magistrate in Randburg. When we went to him he blankly refused to give us permission to bury our dead in a mass funeral. In my opinion I think that people should be given a chance to bury their people. And I think he was wrong for refusing us to bury the dead. And that is the reason why I would like this magistrate to come before the Commission as to why he refused to give us permission to bury our children. I would like to say that some of our people ... bury them on mass funeral - so to bury them on mass funeral we assist these people. We as ministers we go around asking

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for some donations to help us and bury the dead ones. That is the reason to bury them. If the excuse of the magistrate to refuse us the permission to bury our dead ones I think he was very much wrong. If his excuse is that he was trying to get the safety to the community or the properties of the people he should have at least got some more security to escort us and not to refuse us to bury our dead ones. This was later granted to us through the ANC and ACO. ACO is Alexandra Civic Organisation. They got us a lawyer, Mr Huyzen. We made an appeal to the magistrate saying that to the magistrate if he refuses to give us the permission to bury our dead ones he is prepared to take that immediately to court.

MS MKHIZE: To help you I would like to ask you a question. You said these people who were killed were comrades. Can you explain to the Commission as to how old were they.

REV MZAMBU: It is difficult to explain before the Commission because as a leader I wouldn't know exactly as to how old were they because there were so many. Only the relatives can know about their ages. Some of them I could just estimate and say, well like one of them Makateni (indistinct) organisation of (indistinct) so his sons, I know them. This Makateni I know. So the others I may not be able to know. But all I know again about that Banda was shot dead while he was from work at Third Avenue and (indistinct) at 9th Avenue. The magistrate in turn ... in a letter which was written by Mr Huyzen the attorney, he says here in the letter:

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Now it reads as follows, the time which was scheduled by the government now to us to tell us how should we bury our dead ones. He said that Banda, his funeral service will start at half past one and to half past two. Colin Dothli, his service will start at two o'clock to three o'clock. Elias Nduli was scheduled to be buried at half past two to half past three. Woes Dube from three to four. Saphinium Dagane half past three to half past four. Albion Makateni two o'clock to three o'clock. Bele Sangwane, half past two to half past three. Jacob Pefadu three o'clock to four o'clock. And we were told that only the ordained ministers will perform on that service. And the restrictions which were given to us is that the bodies will not be carried on the shoulders but into the hearse. People were angry by that time. Such restrictions they wouldn't stand for them. They couldn't stand definitely for them and we couldn't do nothing even if those restrictions were given to us to conduct them, we couldn't do nothing. The ministers which were scheduled to conduct the service, it was Reverend Madisha, Reverend A Matuma, Reverend M M Dhlamini, Reverend J L Makweba, Reverend S Mavula, Reverend Ganagomo, Reverend N A Ntombeni, Reverend Langa. I was scheduled to be an MC on the (indistinct). Another funeral which we - in fact let me just finish up again this part. How we buried these people we went, I personally went with the other comrades from ACO to Puni's Undertakers at Lenasia. We asked them for full funeral service. If those people are here I would

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like to thank them very much. Those are the people which did the great job for our people. It was very fine what they did, they gave us free of charge full service of the whole service. Not only in this funeral. In the following mass funerals that we had which is ....

MS MKHIZE: Maybe to help you in order to gain, go back to the focus, I would like you to explain as to what happened in 1991 where you stated that the way a number of people who were harassed during the time.

REV MZAMBU: Yes, I am going to that incident in fact. I don't know whether these people came before the Commission but I also informed that I was coming to give a statement that they should also come and give their evidence, if possible. At First Avenue it was a night vigil. In this night vigil people which were killed, it is Leon Pamapanga from 154 Second Street, Alexandra, Eric Jawa from number 14 First Avenue, Mike Mlovo 34 Fifth Avenue, Cilo Pering 57 20th Avenue, Sipho Gadebe 134 Fifth Avenue, Sidwell Jantjie 130 16th Avenue. Now his body was transferred to East London. There was also a body that we identified at the government mortuary as I was appointed to escort the bereaved one to go and identify their dead ones. Bodies which were picked up out at Alexandra it was Jacob Dhlamini and Timot Mabundla, Zwelitsha Mbumka, Ntandi Sizwe Napai, Dimonti Ramagula. We buried them. I had this lady which was now here, she said that there are some bodies - her child was killed and not been found. I got a list of bodies which I took from there, the government mortuary, which people I couldn't get them to go and identify their bodies. Probably it was because it was difficult to identify your body, the bodies there they were dismembered, you couldn't -ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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they were beyond identification. Some of them they were packed in a big hall up to a certain - but bodies from Alexandra which were not identified, the names I don't have them but the body numbers I have got them. 601, body number 601 it was left there unidentified.

MS MKHIZE: We would like to thank you. However details about the numbers we will be able to get it from the papers before you and I would like to, however, take you back to the Chairperson so that the other Commissioners might be able to pose questions about what happened at the time. Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Father, could I ask you, as someone who administered this so much, could you explain to us what a night vigil was.

REV MZAMBU: At that time it was now very much difficult for us to attend night vigils because why we would become victims of police. Some of these bodies, when there is a night vigil, they paint black their faces. You can only see them by their eyes that this is a white man. That is what was happening in this place. It was really hell by that time. I am sorry to put it that - but it was bad. I really request the TRC to call upon these people which were doing all this mess here, let them come here, let that Minister of Law and Order come here and come and tell you why he was refusing to give our people permission to bury their dead ones. It is not a privilege, it is a right to bury our dead.

MR LEWIN: Could you explain, what seems to have happened is that the people were shot in the streets by the police. The families would then organise a night vigil and then they would be attacked. The families themselves would be

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attacked at the vigil and more people would then be killed. Is that correct?

REV MZAMBU: Everyone knows that. Yes, that is true, they were attacked. Normally in most night vigils people were attacked.

DR RANDERA: Father you have said several times this afternoon that you want these people to come forward. Now when you say these people are you only referring to the police and army or are there other incidences that took place in Alex where human rights violations took place and you are also asking those people to come forward.

REV MZAMBU: I think I have mentioned that the Chief Magistrate at Randburg also abused our human rights by refusing us to bury our dead ones in a mass funeral. Those are our rights and the police as well which killed these people. All those people, those even which I didn't mention them, I do not know of them, they should come up and be honest and come in front of you.

DR RANDERA: So you are primarily asking the police to come forward.

REV MZAMBU: Those which were involved in doing all this to us.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Father.

MS SOOKA: Father I have one question. Were mass burials also not the way that people used in those days to meet with each other and to politicise each other? Was mass funerals, mass burials and night vigils not a mechanism used for mobilising support in the community as well?

REV MZAMBU: May you please repeat your question.

MS SOOKA: What I am saying is that in those days there was a state of emergency and often the only way people could

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meet freely together was either at a night vigil or at a mass burial. Now was that not a mechanism used by the community to get together to mobilise each other and to politicise each other?

REV MZAMBU: With my colleagues we are Christians. We are helping our people throughout a crisis of this nature. We may know and hear that the politicians are doing this and that and that, we don't go very much deep into the whole (indistinct) but all what we need as the messengers of God we need to bring about peace in the community.

MS SOOKA: Thank you, Father.

DR RANDERA: Father, I want to have one more go at my question if you don't mind. You have quite rightly come forward and identified the mass funerals, the killings during the vigils. But I just want to take on something you just said now that you are a Christian and therefore in a sense you try and help everybody.

REV MZAMBU: That is true.

DR RANDERA: Now when I asked that question about asking people to come forward we also know that in Alex community courts for example took place and during that time people were perhaps fairly, perhaps unfairly, targeted. We also know of the killings that took place of Inkatha people in this community. Now I am asking are you making that same sort of appeal to those people to come forward?

REV MZAMBU: Let me just give you an explanation before I answer you. The Commission, as far as I understand it, the purpose of it is to bring about peace as well. So to bring about this peace is that the offenders should come and confess, that makes it easy and then the Commission, the TRC, they will be able to forgive. That I think we have got

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it in the Bible as well. When you want to be forgiven your sins by God you have to come forward and confess. Then you will be forgiven. You are doing a very good job, I like what you are doing. And that is why I still emphasise that. Those people let them come out. Definitely people will stop crying here when they come which they can see, even if it will be temporarily that heartbreak but it will be the same instance if someone comes and say okay here is the body of your son which I have killed him like this one which was here. She wants only to see the body, where is the body. She knows for certain that she was killed. Now only to bring about peace this is only the method, they should come out then these people will be satisfied.

MS SOOKA: Father, thank you for coming forward today. You are right that the burial of a body is a right and you have in Alex struggled very, very hard often to assert that right on behalf of those who were defenceless, those who needed you most and I think the community will commend you and your fellow priests for what they did for Alex during that time. We are also conscious of your appeal to perpetrators to come forward and again we issue the appeal to those who have committed gross human rights violations, be they on any side, that they should come forward to the Commission and apply for amnesty. However, I want to just set you right on one thing. It is not the Commission who can forgive ...

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