WILLIAM MAKULANI: Duly sworn states

ALWINUS MRALASI: Duly sworn states

Dr Ramashala is going to facilitate your evidence this morning.

Good morning Mr Makulani and Mr Mralasi.

Good morning ma’am.

MR MRALASI:

Good morning ma’am.

If both these gentlemen are going to be telling us about their horrible torture - experience - in the hand of the police. We will start with Mr Makulani and then follow up with Mr Mralasi. Mr Makulani, could you go back even before 1968, and talk about the circumstances that led to your detention in 1968.

In 1968 I was in my house sleeping and policemen came to my house in the morning at 2 - it was at 2 a.m. They knocked at the door and came into the house and started searching the house all over, throwing my clothes and scattering them all over the room. And when I asked them what they were doing, who’s permission did they have.

Then they told me they were policemen, I should not question them. Then I kept quiet and at about 3 o’clock in the morning, I again asked them what they actually wanted. Then they said that I should leave them. I shouldn’t just talk nonsense to them. Then I said to them: Why should you talk like that? Then they said: This is our job. Then I left them. They went on and on, then they took me - just before that they asked me to dress up because I was in pajamas ...[intervention]

May I just - can I just interrupt you a little bit to find out who was with you in the house.

I was with my wife and a baby because my wife had just got a baby at that time. And then they said to me: Let us go, come out. And I was dressed already at that time. So I did go outside and I saw a police van outside and I was shoved into one of the vans.

They drove away with me to the Police Station where we were separated and we were put into another van and we were put into various vans - in groups. So in the Police Camp towards early morning, they took us to Beaufort West and they drove on to Oudtshoorn and in Oudtshoorn they again divided us into groups. They sent me to Calitzdorp, together with another man and some other people I do not now. In Calitzdorp - that is where we were for about 2 weeks and were being fed on porridge only.

Ever since I was taken from home, I was given porridge and it was very tough. I even complained that we couldn’t even get gravy because we’re even having some heartburn from eating the porridge. Then my colleagues they said that I should go and talk to this white policeman. Then I asked him to call them to me. So he said yes he would.

Then at night we were offered soup and pap - porridge - and then they came for me, so I left the others behind. Then they moved me from Calitzdorp to Oudtshoorn and they asked me if I knew why I had been arrested. Then I said I didn’t know. Then they said they had them - they had arrested me because of [indistinct] which is PAC wing.

Then I said to them that I knew nothing about that thing. Then they said that I was telling them nonsense, then I said I wasn’t telling them any nonsense. Then one white man that was standing in front of me said that I was telling them nonsense, I should tell them the truth. Then I told them that that was the only truth I had. I didn’t know anything.

Excuse me, were you a member of any political organization, specifically [indistinct].

No, I wasn’t a member. Then they said they were going to show to me. They asked me to stand like an aeroplane. Then I said: How could I do that? Then they said - they insisted - that I should stand like an aeroplane with my - then I’m standing and I’m showing how they asked me to stand on my tows. They had placed a sack on my shoulder and it was very heavy and then they started beating me vigorously, clapping me al over the body and I fell down.

They kicked me severely, asking me to tell the truth because they said I was - they alleged that I wanted to kill the whites. They beat me up for 3 consecutive days and then on the third day, they left me. They used even to kick me on external genitals and I was swollen . I could not even go to the toilet.

[indistinct] how many?

There were two - one of them was Moshweshwe and then another one, but I can’t remember his name. But he came from Graaff-Reinet. Then I was beaten up for 3 days and they took me to jail in Oudtshoorn where I waited for the others. They just put me there in jail. Then some pus started coming out of my ear and I could not urinate.

I could not do anything and I was worried, then I asked one of them to look into my ear because it was very painful. And I’ve asked them to give me medicine - they wouldn’t give this medicine to me. I even felt dizzy, then Benn looked into my ear and he is the one who saw that there was pus that was coming out of my ear and then he started cleaning up my ear. And then I asked them to give me medicine, then they called me Poxo saying they were not going to give me medicine. I should die because I can’t live with people, so I kept quiet, and I said it’s very tuff now on earth.

So I was sick until I got healed and then they took us back home. Excuse me - then we were sent to Court to see the - before the Judge that was from Oudtshoorn. The Court who I was sent to, was in Cape Town, in Supreme Court. Then our case stretched for about 1 year, 6 months in Cape Town and then we were released in June. So that is what happened.

Thank you, Mr Makulani. I want to first apologize before I ask the next question. And state that I do not mean to be disrespectful by asking the question. But I need to ask this question because there seem to have been very special ways of torturing men. And you mentioned in your statement that during the torture they kicked you all over and you said including your private parts.

Did they do anything else that you haven’t told us about?

No, nothing else except that they would take me and facing my head downwards, and they would threaten to throw me down so that I would hit by the head. That was another thing that I had forgotten.

Mr Makulani, how is your health today?

I am - I am ill. I cannot do anything.

[indistinct] and whether you’re receiving any medical treatment at all.

I have got high blood pressure, I have got what the witness says is [indistinct] Then some other times I can’t walk properly - I just feel numb.

Were you able to - how many children do you have?

I have 4 children.

And you don’t work, do you?

Yes, I do not work.

How do you manage at home to take care of your wife and also to raise the children?

It’s only my wife who’s working and she’s therefore the one who’s supporting the family. Even the children now - who are at High School and University - cannot get any help. Therefore - such that I have appealed to those that are finance - institutions to help me with money.

Could you start with your oldest child, give us his age and what he’s doing or what she’s doing - the standard - and then go down to the youngest one.

My firstborn is doing BA - he failed he’s third year degree in BA - that was that time I used to pay for his school fees, but now he is working part time in Cape Town.

What about the next one.

The second one is a University Student at the University of the Western Cape.

How are you paying for them at the university?

[indistinct]

How are you paying for the one at the university?

I’m unable to pay her school fees but she is there at the school. I do get accounts that she is [indistinct]

How about the third one?

Then the third is not attending school.

How old is she?

He is quit old. He’s around about thirty years of age.

And the last one?

The last one is the one at the University.

Mr Makulani, how are you managing? I mean I know you say your wife is working, but do you get any kind of assistance like old age pension or young age pension?

Yes, there is.

Mr Makulani, thank you very much. I will - Chairperson thank you very much. I wander if my colleagues want to ask questions before I go to Mr Mralasi.

Thank you, any questions?

Thank you, Mr Mralasi. How are you?

I’m fine, thank you - nothing bad - it’s just that I’m happy to see you and also to see so many people here after such a long time.

I suppose you two are friends. Am I right?

Yes, we are friends.

So you have been helping each other threw out this ordeal?

There - let me start off by making a - giving my story. We used to help each other. In 1968, on the 24^th - on a Wednesday - and it was four o’clock in the morning then I was putting one child on my lap. This child was three years of age and I was trying to put a stove on because it was a very chilly day.

It happened that, whilst I was still trying to set this stove on, I heard a knock at the door - on the window - and my wife peeped threw the window and say that it was the police. And they came in - they were dressed in heavy coats - and they said: Where is the owner of the house? And then I responded that here I was. Then they said to the other one: You should keep watch on me. And then they were going into the bedroom. One of them tried to pull out the shelve and he emptied the shelve and they started looking at the books that was in the sitting room and also in the bedroom. And at the time, I was in the sitting room together with the children. I had 5 children at that time.

Then it happened with time that I asked what they actually wanted from me. Then they said I would get the information once I get there. Then my wife asked what is it that I will hear. Then they said they were going to bring me back. Then they said that they are going to take me away - then I asked them there they taking me to. And I asked them where exactly because I wanted my family to know where they were taking me to.

Then my wife gave me a coat and an overall - those overall known as a Sampson - so I also put on my socks in a disorderly manner and I didn’t know why they were arresting me because I - ever since I was born, I had never been arrested before. And I had never quarreled with anyone in my whole life. Then I kept on asking them why they where taking me and where they were taking me to.

And I could see that they where very serious and I suspected that something was drastically wrong and I did not even think that it was a - connected with politics. So we went away and outside I saw there where vans all over - in all the streets, even behind the hill there were many of these vans - police vans - and I just said to myself this was very serious. So I went out. They pushed me into the van. I saw Mr Maroma inside the van - Mr Maroma - I found him in the van and asked why he was there. And he could not tell. So the vans drove away to - and these people who arresting us, were very happy and I could - I was suspicious that something was up their sleeves.

But I couldn’t tell what it was. So we drove away until we got to the Police Station and I saw Mr William Makulani, Willey Manene, Frans Manene. I also saw Sam Phula and many others. I saw Willem - Willem Madoena and many others who’s names I have forgotten. There were many of them.

Because we came from a very small town, so there were many of us and we knew each other. So they took us and asked us to keep quiet. With - there were many of them - the yard here before the Police Station was just full of people. Then there was an instruction that two of us should be taken and we should be divided into small groups and then the Police van drove towards Beaufort West. And got to the Police Station and this white man who were - they were very happy, I could see. And I kept on talking to myself, wondering that what was actually wrong, but I could not tell what it was. And then the vans drove away - some of us were dropped in Oudtshoorn - some were dropped in George - some were dropped in Calitzdorp and I was there in Calitzdorp for 3 weeks, eating porridge they had mixed with salt - a lot of salt - that was watery because I was angry, I would mistake it for sugar.

And they intentionally mixed this porridge with salt and I kept on wondering what actually had we done because I could see this was something very serious. Right, I was there in Calitzdorp and later Mr Makulani joined me and we shared a cell and I asked him where he was coming from, and then he said he came from Oudtshoorn - where he had been beaten up - and even blood came out of his ear, to an extend that he could not hear properly. Then I asked him what was wrong.

Then he said no they say we are members of the PAC - of the Poqo wing - then I was surprised. There were other men who had been arrested with us and they had been taken and made State Witnesses against giving evidence about us. And before long Mr Makulani was removed from there and I was left with Mr Maroma.

Two days there after I was also taken to Mr Maroma and we were taken in a car and I had a hope that I was being taken back home because I had left my wife behind. Even if it’s time to go on. My wife was pregnant - it was just before she was going to get her baby and this what was worrying me most. So we were taken to Oudtshoorn with Mr Marona and there was a room there of this size.

And there were many men inside - Baadjies was one of them and I asked them what they were coming for - they stated - and I asked them why they were there and they said that they were alleged that they had been - they were members of Poqo. Then I was called into this room and I saw Mr Nortje who said to me - addressed me Alwinus - and told me that I had been in a political meeting there - in Mr Josezhe’s house.

And I asked them since when had that been happening but they - Poqo had been happening in Victoria West. Then he said it was three years but he had just come - but he knew everything. So they gave an instruction that I should be taken away and be locked in. They tried to beat me but I blocked. So I was locked in back to the cell. We were taken one by one.

Amongst us was Willie Manene and Frans Manene. Then we were taken with George Digeni, Divey Jose, Michael Malala. We where twenty three in number after they had selected some of us from the group. Long before anything could happen, we were taken - we’re then taken - to Victoria West.

There were 26 of us who were taken to Victoria West and were sent to the Magistrates office. We were in a file - standing there in a file. I was the twenty sixth in that queue. I was standing at the back, so the others went in and I was there standing. Then Sergeant Vosloo - of Security Branch in Oudtshoorn - asked me why I was standing there. Then I said that I wasn’t thinking of anything but except what they had arrested me for. Then he asked me to get in. Then they said our case had been revered to the High Court in Cape Town.

That is where we are going to appear in Court, so we got into the van, where we found some children and some women who had come to see us and women were crying - my wife was big at that time, but today she is very thin from suffering.

Because what happened really, made her very sore - her heart very sore. So we were taken and transferred to - passed Beaufort West we were transferred to - Laingsburg and they said we were going to spend a night in Worcester in a jail called Dronkhel and in Worcester twenty six of us, with other men we found there, we were given accommodation to sleep. Then the following morning I can point out the way we were handled where as I done nothing. Then ...[intervention]

Mr Mralasi, may I just interrupt. You said the way you were handled - could you be specific about that.

We - it was - we got a very rough handling because all that we’re supposed to get we were not - we were denied of. The elderly ones were put aside then the younger ones were the ones who were being beaten up severally so that should tell lies. That was the way in which we were handled. Then it became better when we got to Pollsmoor.

Were you beaten when you were in Calitzdorp?

No.

And in Victoria West?

No, even in Victoria West I wasn’t beaten.

[indistinct] isn’t mend that you’d like to tell us.

There is quite a lot - a lot of - I would even asked that you should extend my time because I have a lot to say because it happened twenty six years ago. It happened in 1968 up to now.

So in Worcester we spent a night there and then in the morning Sentile Bavata together with a man dressed in white came and said - said - he was going to speak Afrikaans to me and ask me to open - and ask me to go in.

There was also an old man, Madgali, who was an old man - who was quite old, even, I would say the age of the bishop. Then he went in - we asked him to go in - and this bewaarder - then we thought we were going to keep him there in the room amongst us. So early in the morning - the next morning - we were taken to Pollsmoor and there were twenty six of us at the time. At the reception they wrote particulars about our age, about our marital status et cetera, taking all the details.

At about this time there was a sheet of paper with names like Thike, Willie Manene and we asked these bewaarders what was all this about. Then this Willie had evidence in this case and had he - his name appeared on this page. Then they - the allegation was that we were going to be put in poison in the - in the dam and were going to disconnect the electricity. Because on the side of Victoria East there is a hill and we as twenty six, as we were - we were - referred to as an army. And they alleged that we were going to lay there and we were going to take over the whole town and that was not true.

We were there for two months and then in July lawyers came to see us - Mr Vallem, Mr Wayne Peffer, Zeckelwitch and Former Kellis. There were four of them - two lawyers defending thirteen, two other lawyers thirteen of us. So we gave statements and after that we were told that on a certain day in August we were going to appear in Court. Then it happens that in August we appear in Court - that was in Pollsmoor. They used to take us from Pollsmoor to the Courts - to the Court - that was Wednesday to Friday. Then weekends we would spend then in Pollsmoor and there it was slightly better.

We could read newspapers, we could write letters home. I even wrote a letter to my family and tell them that I was healthy and my wife would respond to my letters to. And she told me that we had got a baby - a baby boy. My wife had - my wife had a baby two months old - born on the 6^th of May 1968.

This was a month after you have - you were detained?

Yes, because I last saw them on the 24^th of April and we were kept in most - in - Pollsmoor and we got a chance to write letters home. Are you now satisfied?

You were released on the 30^th of April in 1969. Could you tell us what happened after that.

I’m coming to that, it’s only that I want to explain how a person is mishandled, being - then the judge was - Mr Theron, one was Hertzog. The prosecutor was Brunet. I’m coming now to where I feature. We - then they talked everything there in court. There were witnesses giving evidence until it was my turn on the 22^nd - on the 23^rd of April, on a Tuesday - I appeared in court.

They said to me - they called me as number 26 so I went to the front and they said to me - I have left out something - the witnesses were Willie Manene, Wilson Mafoeja, Sedeso Pagalitha, Distant Phambo and ...[intervention]

It’s al right if you don’t remember.

I’m going to remember just now because I want to - I want to - name these so as these person - so as to get satisfied. And Harry Mapirey, X54. I don’t know whether he was a police man or what. So I was called and they asked whether I was Alfiuns Mralasi. Then I said no I didn’t know that person.

Mralasi was right but Alfiuns was not the name, otherwise my name is Alwinus. So I asked them to call Alfiuns in my place otherwise I’m Alwinus. So I took out my identity book and also a letter that came from home with the news that I had a baby boy and I took - gave it to them. The judge looked at me and looked at my ID book and said you are Alfiuns. Then there was an argument about this first name of Alfiuns. Then he said this belonged to Mr Brunette, who was a prosecutor.

I kept on saying they should call Alfiuns because I was Alwinus. So Mr Brunette paged through his statements for quite a while. It was even longer than five minutes and the lawyers were watching and other men were all watching. And the judge then asked me if I knew Mr Jose - then I said I knew him. I said yes I was calling him as Chawhe, in his clan name.

Then he asked me what TV Jose meant. Then I said it meant Thami Victor Jose - he asked about his name. I said he’s - was in Somerset East. Then he asked - he said Mr Maruma had told him that I could repair a radio. Those were the radios that had some wires. And we used to do certain things to the radios, that was before the FM. Then it happened that they could not get Alwinus so I was discharged. Then at Pollsmoor I was given a ticket and I got onto the train and on the 1^st of ’69 I came to Victoria West - that was the 1^st of May 1969.

At home I found my house disorderly, my children were very thin, my wife - who had never worked before - was working for Mr Van Britten who was a farm owner and I’m now telling you about how we used to suffer those days. My wife was earning R4.00 monthly and during the day she would get a plate of mealie-meal, half bottle of paraffin - mind you.

We had five children and she had to feed this children with all this, because one of my daughters was at High School and - but she had to leave because I was not there. So when I got home, I saw the baby boy and I was looking at my baby and this baby was running away from me - crying - because he could not recognize me. And it was really hurting to me, then he ultimately got used to me and he grew up such that today, as I’m speaking to you now, they are grown-up men.

Bishop knows my eldest son - he knows what he is today - he is a traffic cop today. My other daughter is a teacher in Colesburg, my other daughter is a teacher in Richmond, another daughter is a nurse because God has worked. That is as far I can go …END OF TAPE 3, SIDE A…

DR RAMASHALA:

Mr Mralasi, thank you very much for a very touching tail. I’d like to ask you one or two questions, if you don’t mind. Are you all right? Were you a member - at that time, were you a member of any political organization?

I would say even now as you are looking at me, those days, we the elderly people, we did not have any activities. We are not members of any organizations.

At that time that the police picked up all of you, were there any Poqo activities in Victoria West?

Even today, I will say there never were any activities or organizations of Poqo there. I give an example and say that that place is very small - it’s very, very small - such that people there know everything, even what you have bought. People would know - now just tell me why would people not know that there was Poqo if there had been.

Mr Mralasi, I’m going to ask you the same question that I asked Mr Makulani. Are you working today?

No, I’m not working.

How are you managing? I know that your - your - children really came out well in spite of the problems. How are you managing today?

It is tough because I get a - the - the pension because I’m sixty five years of age. So we - these children are supporting us as you know that they also have commitments. Then they give us when they can afford whatever they can to give to us for food. Some other times they buy some sheep for us. That is how we live where as I cannot work for myself now any longer.

Thank you very much. I will ask the Chair - thank you Chairperson - I will ask my colleagues.

Joyce Seroke.

No, they did not have it. They did not show any paper to me.

It was easy if they had charged me for politics because I could have shown then the book. One other I have omitted is - which I would like to explain here in this gathering is - that Thequewe Willie Manene was a member of the Methodist and he accused me, together with his brother and another brother of his. I must tell you everything that I taught about him so that one could make a story out of this. Willie Manene - I hated him for five years, I even wanted to stab him to death - stab him because he had hurt me and he implicated me and said I was there in that meeting. And he said I was - we were hiding.

There was a lamp that was hidden under a table and this is an indication that this was a real lie. Willie Manene - I saw him in King Williams Town in 1972 and I was with my children. And my children were not succeeding at school, so I decided to send them to King William’s Town because I was working then.

I took them to King William’s Town and that is where things went better for them, even in Somerset. That is were I met Willie Manene who was working in a showroom where they sell cars. And one of my children pointed him and said there he is. So I asked for my knife, I opened it, I put it into my pocket, I went close to Willie Manene. This is God’s work because His works are wonderful.

I had intentions to stab him. I opened the door and I saw a white man who asked me whether I wanted a car. Then I said no. I had last seen Willie in 1968, in court. At the time he was wiping the car and he saw me as I was moving slowly towards him. In fact a person who was guilty, will always spot you and you know this is the truth.

So I went in greeted him and I asked him how he was and I asked him to go out with me. We went outside and he stood there and he had some difficulty to talk. And I was surprised what was wrong with him and I looked at him and I could see there was real change in him. He had gone through a lot of suffering - he had gone through a lot of suffering. I could see, it showed on his face and I asked why are you like this.

Do your people know that you are like this? Then he said no. I asked him about Frans Manene, Samuel Manene. Then I asked him if I could see Samuel to give him some messages. Then he said yes, he said he was suffering from high blood pressure, he had pains on his hip and his son to was ill treating and beating him. I could see he was finished, I then called my wife and even that one, who was born when I was detained. I called all them - all of them - and I said Willie here are your children because we had the same clan name. So he greeted them.

Then I said these are your children, you can see they are old. Then he said: Are you still going on with this. Then I said to my wife: Look at this person, how he looks like. And I asked my wife to take out one pound and give it to this man so that he could buy food for himself. And that was the last I saw of him. He never went back to his house, he never went to see his family. He went to hospital and that was the end of his life. So when he asked me how I had come there, I said I had come in a car. So I went there, I drove out the car and he was standing there.

This is the man who was trying to drown me and as I was driving, he saw the registration, CCR, and he lifted his hand, trying to wave. And I also waved back, so I stopped - I kept on waving for a long time, hooting, and then I drove of to Mtansane. That was the last I saw of him, because he died thereafter. So, even the hatred I had just faded away. So that’s why I say God is there and God is with us - we are parents but things may not do - people may not do bad things to others because we’ve got children, we have got children who we are bringing up.

So today you have allowed me to say everything to you and everything that has been locked in within my heart now, you have allowed me to have a clean breast of - so I am not even embarrassed today. You can go to my house, you will be surprised because God is like those old bottles of wine that used to be closed with a cork and if you were to fill in a bucket with water and then you take that cork and put it into that water, that water will not sink, it will float. Thank you, I thank you for all you have done for me.

I would like to also to thank both of you for coming. The stories that you have told is a very famous and important one in our history. And it’s good that the young people should be reminded of what happened in 1960’s to all of you. I’d just like to tell you and others, or remind you and others, that when your case came to Court, before Mr Justice Theron, he was very angry that the case had been brought against you and he said that the spy who was known as X54, the one you have spoken about, had been the center of the whole State case.

And that under cross examination it had become apparent that his answers were quite clearly false and that he was prepared to tell lies. He admitted that he had lied during a similar trial in Port Elizabeth and the judge said, and I quote his words: It made a person shudder to think that some one, like X54, could be placed in a position where he had an interest in the arrest of members of the public.

And I just think of the affect on the lives of those people who, together with you, were charged in that way. And who had to spend more that a year in prison while you were waiting, only in the end to be released and acquitted of all charges. So, thank you for coming to tell us about this. I don’t know it you know of the affect - you have told us about the affect on your own lives but of the affect on the lives of the other members of your group who went through the same experience with you.

UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER:

Is that a question? He’s asking whether you know anything of what happened to the others that you were with.

MR MRALASI:

Some are there in Victoria West, others died. Let me say we were two groups of people. We were first arrested on the 24^th of April and another group was arrested in June, in 1968. Those went to court in Oudtshoorn but their is not here at he moment. And we went to court - went to the Supreme Court but we heard that William, Frans Manene, were sentenced three years and this surprised us and this was told to us by Mr Wayne Peffer.

We wondered whether those people, who were - those people who were after us and then they were sentenced but were still going to court. Then there was promised to work on this. They were in Victor Verster and they were told that their case had been closed, they should go home. I heard one women saying this child is really hurting and damaging my heart and I would ask how did this happen.

And yet he actually mend the actions. Even those men who died - because even during our absence people would die and then our wives would have to go and dig and conduct funerals and this was really hurting. There was a division because there were - those were witnesses and they were wives that really enjoying it and they were dressing well, where is our wives who were suffering at the time. So those who were suffering used to go and dig holes for the graves - to make graves.

Even now, we are still staying together and as I can see wives are happy together and we men we talk about these things and I will always point out 1968 and these men would leave us. And leave us there talking about these things. There is another man I am related to, who’s name I’m not going to mention, he will invite me to his home and then I will ask my children to go and help there. So, I’m trying to say people do these things and these things backfire. So, this is what is happening. I thank you, Commission.

I thank you, let me say that your brother that - your son that you did not mention, now tell us what happened to your son.

My son, thank you - thank you, Bishop. So I pay - I kept my son at school after I was discharged and that time we used to use slates. In 1968 my son was doing Sub B and he used to write on a slate with a pencil and so he went on with his studies until he got to Standard 6 and I could not pay for his fees.

And then he decided to go to Cape Town to my nephew’s who live in Langa. Then I heard that he had got a job at - in Claremont so he went to work there in Claremont for a long time - he worked there. And he was quiet - not writing any letters to us. Then one day I decided to get onto the train and I got my son there and I asked him why he was so quiet and then he gave me a letter where it was stated - it was a book where everything - his expenditures and income were written.

Then I said to him: This does not work. I actually want to see your bank book, and he did show it to me and at that time he had saved R600.00. Then I asked him what he was going to do with the money. Then he said the following week he intended packing and going home and going back to school and he [indistinct] did exactly that. He brought the money with him and we decided to go and make a loan of money and we got R400-00.

Those days it was not very expensive to pay in schools because we added this R400-00 to the R600-00 that he had, to make R1,000-00 and I asked him whether he wanted to go back to school. So he stated the time when he wanted to go back to school. And then there was another daughter of mine who also wanted to go to a school in Fort Beaufort - a certain school in Fort Beaufort she wanted to go to is Thubaleto High School, which is a [indistinct] College thing.

So we decided to make this effort and we got the loan, I drove them to Fort Beaufort and they went into this school. So that is where my son got his education. He spent two years there and he said it was not good for him in Allies. He wanted to go to the Cape College in Western Cape, so I agreed. There was no problem with the books and so he transferred to the Western Cape and he went on studying.

We were going up and down trying to collect money, trying to channel moneys to the various schools. We were eating dry porridge with water and sugar, trying to save and keep them in school. Then it happened in - one day we were invited to a graduation ceremony, and so went there by train and up to Beaufort West because there had been accident with the train.

Then there was a bus. We boarded the bus to Cape Town and went to another relative of ours. We stayed there for the days and this particular morning we saw Joos sitting there. I still have a clear picture and I can see him dressed in his regalia - academic regalia. Today he has - he is studying his LL.B., he has studied his LL.B. and he is working in Aliwal North. That is my son - that is our son. Thank you.

Dr Ramashala.

Mr Mralasi, and Mr Makulani you have an incredible history and I think it would be a shame if you were to pass on without that history being recorded for the children in Victoria West. Have you thought about tape recording the information so that it is kept as part of the museum and left for the community in Victoria West.

Honorably, this a good advise, but we can say you can be wise but you need some advises from people. This can be done but the main thing is I have got to talk to this children first because it is no good to do anything without their consultation because I feel they are broad minded and they’ve got better knowledge than me, so I’m going to take your advise. So our son , Bishop, because he to is your - he is your son to because you gave him blessings. I’ve now forgotten what I was going to say because of old age.

Don’t worry. Let us say to both of you, as my comrades I’m saying to, we thank you. Because there are some people who always consider freedom as having just started in 1976 - for getting what your input too. What surprises is that most cases as you said you were not even active but you were just arrested for nothing.

We therefore thank that the judge talked in the manner in which Mary Burton explained to us and he decided to release you. But let us all say - let us observe that freedom. We had to pay a very big price for it and in most cases people think that all these things happen only in Soweto, in Cape Town, in Durban and they tend to forget that this is just all over, especially in those hidden places.

This Commission helps therefore to let us know that our people were really suffering all over - not only in Soweto or in Cape Town, but in all the places. And we therefor must thank you and lift up our caps and say the price that you paid makes us remember and not to forget that we should play about with the freedom we have got.

We also thank that - we thank you that - God also touched your heart when you saw this man, that you intended to kill and you also listened when God said to you look at his condition. And you had, as you mentioned. All the people in here were quiet at the time because I think even God at that time was touching our souls and reminding us that there are many wounds that are within us. But what we are trying to do at the moment to give you that key you mentioned - the key that opens the hearts so that you are able to say everything and by so doing you feel as if someone is putting some oil in those wounds - to heal those wounds, so that we should all thank God for giving us this time.

And God forgiving us that we should - we should not have hatred. We should not want to revenges ourselves, we should reconcile instead and we should except one another so that this land that went through all this, should be blessed by God and God should place us in a position where we shall be exemplary to Rwanda, to Burundi and we point back to our past. And say to them, here we are today, united we are. We therefor thank you so much, I thank you.

Thank you, may God bless you too and keep you and take care of you - even your families as well, because God says what can you do to men and he places you in a very wide place. I thank you. We are now going to take a break for lunch, let us all stand as the witnesses removes them from their places, please.