CHAIRPERSON: We would like to acknowledge the presence of the students from the Academy of Learning that have just joined us. The Academy is based in Nelspruit and we thank you for spending the afternoon with us. We would also like to welcome those of you who joined us after lunch. It is very important for the process of going forward in our country that as many people as possible know of what happened during the last number of years. So that we can begin to set the record straight. But more importantly, so that we can make sure that they never ever happen again. Mamma, can you hear me?

MS MBIBA: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: As is customary we would like to welcome you to the hearings of the Commission. We normally allocate a Commissioner to assist you with the leading of your evidence. Mr Hugh Lewin on my right is going to ask you to take the oath first and then he will ask you to tell your story. Thank you for coming. Do you want to tell me who the gentleman is who has accompanied you, so that we may welcome him.

MS MBIBA: It is Michael Ndowe.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to welcome you and thank you for coming to support Mrs Mbiba.

GEJANE PAULINE MBIBA; (sworn states).

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much. You are here to tell us the HRV/MBIBA story/...

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story of your son, Thembiuso Simon Ndowe. I just wanted to check, are we correct in pronouncing and spelling his name? It is NDOWE, is that correct?

MS MBIBA: Yes.

MR LEWIN: This refers to a time in March 1983, which, if you could please, in your own time, tell us about. Thank you very much.

MS MBIBA: I want to thank you, more especially the new government in this new Africa, for having done such a good work. We are in a confusing state of mind, where we are expecting peace and our minds and hearts were troubled. We did not actually know what to do.

Simon Ndowe is my child. After he has joined the ANC, the police came to me quite often at home. Police from Komatipoort, they took me, took me to Komatipoort station where I was expected to explain the thereabouts of Simon. I said to them I don't know. I knew very well about him, because at that time it was not allowed to utter a word about the ANC. He said to me he is an MK cadre and he is going away.

In 1983 the same police came to my home and they wanted me to go back to Komatipoort again. They came and found me at my employment, it was in March, on the 8th. They took me. Then they said to me I must go and sign something at Nelspruit police station. They never told me anything, whether there is something that happened. I went with them. On our arrival there at the police station, they stopped the car, just at a distance. The white police said to the black police officer: tell this mother that his child has hanged himself and he died at round about three o'clock, here in the cell. They opened the door of the car. I went out of

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the car. They opened the door. I saw him and he was pushed in a caravan. They said to me I must come closer to him. As I was looking at him I saw him, he had changed. I could not easily identify him. He was bruised on the face. The eyes were also closed and the jaw here was broken. On the hands here you could see that it was bruised. As I was looking at the nose I saw the blood coming out of the nose. I looked at the leg and the leg was also swollen. I felt very sorry. I was actually touched. As I was touched, the white policeman pushed me and I fell down. I got injured in one of my legs. After that I did not know what happened. I don't know actually, I fainted. I gained my consciousness somewhere else, not near the place where the cops were. I found myself now in another house and I saw a sister and then I said to myself where am I at the moment. When I looked at myself at my shoe I saw a lot of blood on my shoe. I was surprised; where does the blood come from? It was because of the injury I sustained.

Then from there the police told me and said you will never see your child again; as you have seen him, it is the end of it, you will never see your child again.

From there they took me to be under the sun, where there is no shade the whole day. Everybody was passing there, was actually surprised to see me crying. What has happened to me? No food was given to me. Since they took me in the morning up until late at seven in the evening. The police came back again. The police took me from home. It was a black police officer. They took me. It was round about seven at that time. They took me back to my home where they left me.

The children were surprised. They did not know what

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happened, because I left home and went to my place of employment. That worried me a lot to see that government did not take care of me. The old government did not take care of me.

From there it was obvious now that we need to do something now. Then I went to my attorney Anthony Possa & Bissos. Those are the people who actually gave me assistance that I could get my corpse, my boy.

They said to me then well, I can get the corpse, but the post-mortem must be conducted on the corpse. While we were there I went inside where the post-mortem was to be conducted. They said I must open him. I looked at the corpse. Actually it was wounded, it was bruised. That worried me a lot.

Then from there I took the corpse. They asked me where are you going to with the corpse. I said it is not your business, it is my own business. I took the corpse with me and I put that corpse at the mortuary in Lekasi.

It was very difficult during those days. People are questioning why should I go and put that corpse at the mortuary at Lekasi. Those people actually who were to collect the corpse was very much difficult for them. They said they would rather hire a Kombi. There were a lot of policemen alongside the road, you know, watching where are we going to pass. But God was with us. We managed to go through those police barricades up to Lekasi where we had to keep the corpse. The question of a funeral, well, I did not see anything there.

Now from there, because I heard from the rumours that they saw - because he was a former teacher before, they said they saw him. They watched him on TV, he wore one shoe on

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the one leg and the other leg was no shoe. Some children said to me that oh, our teacher, Mr Ndowe has been arrested, he is in jail. But I was told nothing. People tried their level best to find out exactly what can be done. There Mr Possa actually assisted us. He actually acted on our behalf that we could see him. At the end they agreed that well, he was arrested. Then they said to me you must go and buy clothes, you must him shoes, you must buy him stockings. My elder son went there to buy those things and the Bible. Because this boy of mine he was actually a Christian. He used to like reading the Bible. They took the clothes, but they could not accept the Bible. That worried me a lot that while when my child was injured and wounded in this fashion, he could not be sent to the doctor. They only called in the doctor and that doctor attended him while police were standing there. Because he informed the police well, he is not well, because he was injured, wounded. Dr Viljoen came there, looked at him, examined him and he only gave him some headache tablets. He only wrote on a piece of paper. There was no file that he gave him some headache tablets. From there I heard that my boy has been sent to the theatre, three times. But myself I was not told, being the mother of the child, that my child was also in detention or in prison. I was not even told that he is injured.

In fact, I am working in the hospital. I know quite a lot of things. I know if police have got problems, maybe if they arrest someone, and maybe that person has been injured. That person should be taken to the hospital and the police should be there. So I still say the old government was not fair to me. It was not fair to me. Even now that thing cost me a worry.

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On a monthly basis now I am taking tablets because of the heart disease. I am so pleased that the Commission is now here, that perhaps the Commission can help me to investigate the matter, what must be done. Because as far as I am concerned at that time I was able to work for myself. I was able to look after the children. The elder son had children. The elder one is two years old, six months, the third one was about, I am not sure whether it is six months or so.

Now this worried me a lot. I had to go back. I had to go back and take responsibility of my grand-children, because there was no way out now, because they were actually children of my son.

You can see I can no longer work. I don't know what to do now. I don't know what can be done by the Commission, and what the Commission can do for me in order that I should assist the children. I realise that not very long they will have to leave school because I am told that I will have to terminate my service next month.

MR LEWIN: Mrs Mbiba, thank you very much. To be able to try and do something we need to have a full picture. So if I could ask a few questions. For instance, how old was Simon at the time in 1983?

MS MBIBA: He was 24 years of age.

MR LEWIN: You say he was an alleged member of the ANC. Was he a member of the ANC?

MS MBIBA: Yes, he was a member of the ANC.

MR LEWIN: I would like to ask if you don't mind, some details. You have gone into great details about the injuries which you found, you saw on his body. Just go back where the policeman said "sê vir hom hy is opgehang". Were you

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given any more details, how he hanged himself or he is alleged to have hanged himself?

MS MBIBA: They did explain to me how he hanged himself. They even showed me the rope, a very small rope like that of a sock. It was around his neck.

MR LEWIN: So the marks, were there marks on his neck as well? Were there marks?

MS MBIBA: There were no marks around the neck. There were only scars on the forehead, even on the sides, as even in the foot.

MR LEWIN: Would you, with your medical knowledge, expect there to have been marks on the neck, if he had hanged himself?

MS MBIBA: Can you repeat your question? Especially in the hospital, I cannot understand clearly.

MR LEWIN: Would you expect there to be marks, if he had hanged himself, would the body show marks around the neck?

MS MBIBA: There were no symptoms of any marks, there was just a small shoe lace, it was just around the neck. There were no marks on the neck.

MR LEWIN: What did the post-mortem find? You mentioned that a post-mortem was taken, what were the findings of the post-mortem?

MS MBIBA: Do you mean in the theatre, what do you mean? After his death? They came and collect me and the doctor was there. They wanted me to just to go and have a glance. I did look at him. They were just - the head was cut and they did make stitches, until down to the stomach. They did not tell me anything.

MR LEWIN: You didn't see anything on the post-mortem certificate, what the cause of death was given as?

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MS MBIBA: I didn't have the death certificate, I was very confused, how could I even apply for the death certificate, even if I don't know how was he killed. I only saw the coffin.

MR LEWIN: Could I just ask one thing before handing over to other Commissioners, could I ask one question. Do you think your son killed himself?

MS MBIBA: I do not think so. Even the youth, they do not even think so. I do not think he can hang himself. Even in his joining of the ANC he wanted to talk about unity and he told the people about the Bible. I do not think of that.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much, Mrs Mbiba.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma, I am going to ask the other Commissioners if they want to ask you questions. Mr Malan?

MS MKHIZE: I want you to give some clarity. Maybe is there a person who actually had a chance of doing some inquest besides yourself?

MS MBIBA: At home they all looked at him and they realised that the body was actually damaged. They did see him. They saw him.

MS MKHIZE: If I may further ask about what has been said by the police. When you were looking closer to him, what did other people say, because some other people did look at the corpse.

MS MBIBA: Those people who actually saw him, were surprised to see what has happened. They questioned that of hanging himself, because he knows very well that it is now allowed.

MS MKHIZE: Yes, I understand that. Maybe when they look at the neck, were there some scars or anything that indicated it?

MS MBIBA: They were surprised because if he hanged himself, HRV/MBIBA that/...

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that string should have gone deeper into the flesh, and the very shoe lace that was used actually, it was just a small thing. It is something that was made out of wool, in fact.

MS MKHIZE: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma, you mentioned in your evidence that Mathew Possa and Mr Bissos helped you. Was that with the inquest or was that just to get the body back?

MS MBIBA: They assisted me in getting the corpse. That time he was still practising as an attorney, together with Bissos. Otherwise I wouldn't have got the corpse. They were refusing to release the corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they attend any inquest on your behalf?

MS MBIBA: I want to know, are you referring to members of the family, whether they do make any inquest or at home or not?

CHAIRPERSON: No, usually when someone dies and the reason for the death is not clear, the court usually has some kind of hearing with a magistrate presiding, so that they can begin to establish the cause of death. Did the family members, together with Matthews and Bissos attend any case at court, where they could try to find out what had actually happened?

MS MBIBA: Yes, they did make an inquest. They did even go to the magistrate court, but George Bissos and attorney Possa. They actually denied there that no, this person did not hang himself.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the magistrate say at the end of all of that?

MS MBIBA: I will give my son to give further explanation.

CHAIRPERSON: Before your son talks I will just ask him to take the oath, Mamma. Could you stand Mr Ndowe?

HRV/MBIBA MICHAEL NDOWE/...

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MICHAEL NDOWE: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Will you very briefly tell us what you know about the inquest, please.

MR NDOWE: I was accompanied with Matthew Possa to George Bissos and Captain Parker, where I was actually going there to request two things, so that I could get the corpse of my brother for the funeral. George Bissos to get us a doctor who will do the inquest. Because the government then could not assist us. After that when we came back we had to wait for a long time. On the 13th of September 1984 I got a message from - Possa was our attorney then, that George Bissos, the advocate and other advocates who were assisting him, will come to Nelspruit to do the inquest about the death of my brother. On their arrival there, what I remember, there was a clinical psychologist, Prof Anno Hannon, from Wits. He came together with the doctor who was representing the family. Now when the inquest took place on the 13th of September 1984, what I remember the police actually gave different statements. The person who arrested the deceased at Lekasi, he said he was actually in another car. Those who - the others said no, my brother was brought by another car; no, we did not know exactly which car brought my brother. When they were asked by Adv George Bissos that is it true that you have found in that very car, why, how did it come about - how did you reach the destination. It was found that no, there were some discrepancies here. When Dr Viljoen also gave evidence there, he explained that he did make some prescription, but he did not write on the papers which are normally used by the medical doctors, it was just written on a scrap of paper. The doctor also agreed that he did admit that the

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time when he examined the deceased, the police were there, the security police were there. He said that. Dr Bissos referred to another case which was once detained, that he is not allowed to examine a person who is arrested while the person are still around. He agreed. What I discovered in that report of the inquest, was that the doctor who was a district surgeon then, he was reported in the South African Medical Council, but we were never given the full details. We are not sure whether he is working or he is not working. I think the Truth Commission will also assist us in that regard. Now furthermore, three months after the inquest had already stopped, because the statements were actually different. Some of the police who were expected to come and give evidence, they could not be allowed to come. They had to suspend the inquest in order to get those people to come and give evidence there. Then we came back again in November. It was on the 13th then. The inquest sat again on the 13th of November. During that time nothing was told to our attorney Possa. They never even told us whether he is busy, that he will not be available. They never even worried to inform Adv Bissos that there would be an inquest. They only fetched my mother. There was nobody, there was nobody. It was only my mother. As my mother was sitting there alone and nobody from the family who was sort of assisting her. It was only the magistrate. The magistrate informed my mother that my brother was actually hanged, that is the discovery they received. I wanted to find out exactly. Those people who are actually standing on our behalf, how come that they should not be present there. Then from there the family don't believe whatever has been said, that my brother was hanged, as said by Prof Hannon. According to

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him, and according to the evidence, that was obtained from his pastor and even the evidence gained from the principal of his school, it is not true what has been said that he hanged himself. Us as a family also, we don't believe that our brother did hang himself. It is now almost 10 years. We want now the Truth Commission to assist us, if possible, that this inquest should be brought back again. The captain who was actually in charge of the Security Branch at that time, we would be pleased, more pleased if he could appear before here and to tell us exactly how did he give the commands to his police officers. Because the officers were giving different statements. He allowed police to be present while the examination of the corpse was going on. We request the Commission to bring them here. They must come here so that we could also cool down.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much for what you have shared with us. It is a very sad story and it seems that ... I am just wondering, do you know what the name of the security branch person is who was in charge?

MR NDOWE: I know him very well, because when I was standing close to him I got him there. I was with our attorney Dr Possa. I can reveal the name if you want.

CHAIRPERSON: If you would want to, that's okay, if not you could give it to us afterwards.

MR NDOWE: I will give it to you later. It is written there in the inquest paper.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I would like to thank you and your mother for coming today to share your story with us. I think people in South Africa do not realise how costly freedom has been for this country and how many unresolved stories and deaths there are. We will talk to Matthew and

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to George to see if they have records. We will try and get all the documents together which form part of the inquest record. We will try and come back to you with some answers. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us.

MS MBIBA: We saw on the TV, let them give us the prints of that photo so that we might get the information how our child was killed. I can be very much happy, I can feel the legs, I know I cannot get him back, I can be very much happy if the Truth Commission can try to investigate and expose them, even his children want to know that to have the information. They just get rumours. We do want that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma, we will try and assist you to get that information. We will try and get those prints for you. Thank you.

HRV/MBIBA