CHAIRPERSON: Can I please ask people as they come it to be as quiet as possible, as the proceedings have started. Thank you very much.

Mr Thlapi, good afternoon to you. Mr Thlapi, I know that you have waited many years to come and talk about what happened to your son. You have come today to talk about Ramatha Nicholas Thlapi. A young man from Ikageng, just outside Potchefstroom where you still reside.

Mr Tom Manthata is going to be helping you as you tell your story. Will you please introduce the lady who is with you this afternoon.

MR THLAPI: That's my wife, Mrs Thlapi, that's my wife.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Thlapi, I also welcome you. Mr Thlapi, would you please stand to take the oath?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Thlapi. Mr Manthata?

MR MANTHATA: Mr Thlapi and Mrs Thlapi, I hope that you are now comfortable. There is nothing threatening. I would start with Mr Thlapi. Could you please tell us, tell us about yourself.

MR THLAPI: I am Mr Thlapi, I am from Clockwe in Potchefstroom. I am working at the mlitary base at Potchefstroom. I am a parent of six children, four boys and KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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two girls. Unfortunately the first born is the one that I am looking for this time. All the boys have married. One girl is at the college. The other daughter is in the secondary school.

MR MANTHATA: Are you working?

MR THLAPI: Yes, I am working, Sir.

MR THLAPI: Which year are we talking about, when Nicholas disappeared?

MR THLAPI: Nicholas disappeared in 1986. He was 26 years old when he disappeared. It was during the week. I don't remember the day, but it was on the 20th of March. It was about something to eight in the evening. He met with me when I met, when I was at the gate. He was going out, running and then he stopped and said to me - he was wearing a white shirt with a tie and a black trousers. He said to me I am going to Klerksdorp and we are going to Klerksdorp, we are going to the funerals of other friends who were killed by the police. Then I said to him I see that the situation is tense, it is tense, are you able to pass through Klerksdorp with all the road blocks which are there on the roads. Then he said to me I am going with my friends, we will be able to pass through. Then I allowed him to go. I saw him for the last time that time when I was talking with him on the 20th of March.

On the 21st I got a message when I just knocked off. One of my children said to me that it is unfortunate my brother has been arrested. They got to a road block between - in Klerksdorp and where they have been locked in.

Later in the evening then I asked them who told you. Then they said we were told by Uncle Oompie, which is George Mamojane. Then they told me that if we can see him, he has KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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been beaten the way that we will not believe. But he said when you knock off he will come and see you. Then he arrived in the evening whilst I was still at home. Then he told me that Mr Thlapi, we are unfortunate, we had a problem, we were arrested and some of them I don't know where they are now. Then he asked me if the boytjie had come home. Then I said no. Then he said Boytjie threw him through the window, they have beaten him with April and Viljoen. Then they called him in a room where Boytjie was. That is where Mamajani has seen Boytjie lying down. But he was bleeding from the mouth and from the nose.

Then I said to him if you are the way you are now, where is he, and how is he. Then he said I don't know. Those who were arrested from Potchefstroom, he didn't know where they were. Because from where he was electrocuted, George Mamajane was taken to where the petrol bombs were. From when he left that place, he was taken by the police, beating him with the sjamboks through out by the gate. That is why he was able to come home.

For me to be confused, there were women who came to look for children at Skilpadfontein. When they arrived at Stilfontein I was unable to come at that time to Stilfontein. Mrs Sara Dlamani said to me my son, you are going to waste your time, because we are from there. We are not allowed to see them, they don't want us to see them. April is the one who is in charge, he said you old women, you are witches, you are making these children to cause confusion. That's where I was unable to make an attempt to go to that place because they will deny me to enter. Then again, when we were afraid that if we go there, I am going to be emotional and they are going to harass me again.

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On the 10th of April, where my wife is working, she used to tell her employer called Mr Strauss. Then Strauss told my wife that just tell your husband to come and talk and see that we are able to go to Stilfontein. That is where I got hope that if I go with a White person maybe we will be successful. I did that. I went to Strauss, and he said I should go with the boy who told me, with George Mamajane, so that I should go with him.

We went, we went to Stilfontein at the police station on the 10th of April. When we arrived at Stilfontein, we used the left-hand side gate, which was the side used by the CIDs. When we arrived there, then George pointed out which office they were. Then we were putting Mr Strauss in the middle. We were welcomed by Mr Viljoen. Because when we entered they pointed out, the policeman pointed out where we should go. So when we entered there, he welcomed Mr Strauss. Then he asked him saying good morning, Sir, I am Lourens Du Plessis Viljoen. Then he said what do you want. Then he said I am coming to look and to ask about my employee's son. They were talking Afrikaans. Then he said your employee's son? Then he said are you a lawyer? Then that one said no, I am not a lawyer, I am a professor at the Potchefstroom University. Then he said - after he said are you a lawyer, then he said no. Then he said you should step aside, you may enter. Then Mr Strauss entered, and then he talked with him, the person who came to look for the son, he left outside. The person who came to look for his son he left outside. After a few moments we were called. We entered together with George Mamajane, because we were together. When we entered, when he looked at George Mamajane, he said you are one of those people who are here. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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Then he said yes. Then he took off his clothes, then he said look how you have beaten me. Then this Strauss, he didn't know that the person who we are with has scars. Then Strauss was surprised to see that person looking that way. Then I could see that this man is now in despair. Then he made us to go back. Then he was left with Mr Strauss.

Thereafter they called us again. Then he had files with him. Those files when I remember, there were nine files. This officer Viljoen said to us, he said you must listen to your child's name. Thereafter he had seen that this person has scars, he was a little bit soft. Then he said you must listen for your child's name. He read the first file. Then all the files, all of them were from Potchefstroom. You must know that these files are from Potchefstroom, if you don't know, if he is not here then he is not here. Then the third file, the fourth one jumped and he said he is not from Potchefstroom. The third one and the other one, he said the other one is not from Potchefstroom. Then he read others again. Then he said there you have it. Then because we didn't have powers, because that man Mr Strauss was not a lawyer, I didn't have questions to ask. I was unable to ask what about the two, why did you jump the two, whose names are those. Because they were rough at that time.

We left that office. After he said he was not there, then we went back to Potchefstroom. We were taken to the petrol pumps. When we were at the gate, I said to him again, and said I produced a photo and said haven't you seen this person. Then he looked and then after he had looked, he was - he liked the other one, he said give me this one. He appeared well on the photo. Then he took that photo. He KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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told me - he was speaking Afrikaans saying you, Mr Thlapi, don't be in despair for your child, I am going to look for your child, in all the places, in prisons, in hospitals, I will try by all means, and this photo which I have, I am going to take care of it, that you should get it back again. Then I told him it is okay.

Then we left with Mr Strauss. We went back home. When we arrived at the gate at Ikageng, Mr Strauss was going to Kynenoch, because he had something to do there or to a meeting, because he was in a hurry for the meeting. Then he asked Josh to go out, and then I was left with him in the car. Then I said did you hear what that man was saying, then when you are together with him. Then Mr Strauss said to me Mr Thlapi, this man has told me I should always be aware that my son was always with people who were doing wrong things. Then he was saying he was with that bad company. Then I just said if he was with bad company, where is he. That's how it ended that day. We separated and went our different ways.

MR MANTHATA: You are talking about investigations which were done in 1986.

MR THLAPI: Yes, that is my first investigation which I did in 1986.

After that, after that I was able to see that those others were released who were imprisoned. All the names which appeared on the files, those who were arrested under Section 29 were released. After they were released Hilda came to the house and said - then I said since April has said, has taken Boytjie outside the window at the police at Stilfontein, taking him to other offices, CID offices. Then he asked me didn't he come home? I said no, he did not come KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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home.

Then I began to go to the ANC people, the ANC Youth League to tell them what has happened. Then they were able to take some steps. We went to make a statement at Khosa House, we made a statement there. We met Mr Chris Naidoo. I don't remember the date. We took all the comrades to that place, the witnesses who were there were five, whom I met with to Johannesburg. They were taken to the doctor. I don't know what happened with them at the doctor. So they made a statement. Then I went back to Potchefstroom.

After I see that it was a long time, I went again to Chris Naidoo. When I arrived there Chris Naidoo was not there. There was a certain lady who was helping us. We came back again.

The ANC was able to see that it was too far, because I have no money to travel. Then I told them that I am not able able to travel again because of lack of money. Mr Sarties Rupa came with Mr Dlavani, who have taken that case to Johannesburg. Then when it arrived in Johannesburg, they began to investigate again. They were not successful that the case should be in the court. Then Mr Dlavani tried to make it possible that it should appear in court. Then all those rumours which appear from the police, that there are holes where people were thrown in, like Buffeldoring, James shafts. Then they pressurised that there should be an inquest to be held in those holes.

We arrived there, but what was surprising that those people who had arrested my son, are those people who did those investigations there. The divers who went deep into those waters are the people who have arrested my son. They didn't enter for a long time, and it is quite deep. The

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distance might be from the police station to that place. They were four and then they took two to three minutes, and they said it is too dark and again, it is muddy, they are not able to see.

I was surprised that even when people came back, it appeared as if they held hands. Then I said if you are a diver somebody should come first and the other one should follow and the other one should follow later. But they appeared at the same time. When we were in that hole looking for them.

Then we left. Outside Dlavani said something to these people. He said to them we will make a date where other divers should be brought who are not police people, so that they should go back to the same water, if possible. If possible, they should come back to the same water so that we should look deep and see what is the problem in there. Because they said it is too dark or the machine should incept the water. It was not possible for them to go back. They did not go back at all.

We went home. Then I got another date, I was called by Abe Dlavani. When we arrived there we went to James shaft. There were cameras at James shaft. This shaft, as the other witness who is an ex-policeman said, this place was the place used by the police for mysterious deeds. After he has reported that - may I wait a little bit ...?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, wait a little bit while Mrs Thlapi is taken away. Thank you very much.

MR THLAPI: Thereafter cameras were brought to James shaft. We were told that the people were from Pretoria to come and picture the whole event. This big hole was covered. We were told that it was four metres broad and there was a

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tunnel made of big stone, and I peeped through this tunnel and this was a 4 000 metre hole. It could even be 6 00 metres. There was a red pipe. In other words, this pipe was used to take out the smoke from Margaret. They used their torch to light this hole and the light was not that bright. But ultimately we could reach the bottom of this hole and I saw clean water. The stones in that water were not stones, natural stones from underneath the ground, they were from the first level.

A person came, I don't know if he was a policeman or not, because he was wearing private clothes. He said to me are you now satisfied? I said to him why do you say I am satisfied? He said because you saw the bones. I asked him what is that object in the water. He said no, it is an old iron. I told him that I was told that when you were troubled by these young men you would put them into plastic bags and throw them into the water. He was puzzled and he didn't know what to say.

The policemen were there and they also had their video. I am definitely sure they also had a cassette for the first hole. Abe Dlavani was very aggressive. He told them that we should go back to the first hole and we should get private divers, the people that will do the perfect job. The police realised that it was now becoming difficult and they issued out an inquest.

We went to the court and there were witnesses. I also gave my testimony. I told the Court how my son disappeared and the story ended.

I think it was last year, presently I should tell you that the magistrate gave out a report and in his report he said he would call me, he would first go through the

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documents and he doesn't know who to blame. He said he would send those documents to the Attorney-General who will then tell me what steps to take or he will give me a reply. The Attorney-General will tell me who was responsible.

Gentlemen, at this present moment I haven't received an answer. It is a year now. The inquest was in October or September of last year. Let me say that it was in September. It is again September, a full year and no response has been given to me.

They told me that after three months they would respond to my case. But after six months that I have waited, no answer was given to me.

I gave the independent board a telephone call, because at one stage I went to see them to get help. I said to them I have been calling the lawyers at Klerksdorp, but they don't answer their telephone. I was talking to Celesela and I was told that I will be given a reply the same day, the afternoon of the same day.

I don't know maybe he heard Motala's telephone numbers because he called me later and then he said Mr Thlapi, the office of the Human Rights in Klerksdorp is not available any more in Mafekeng. I was shocked. How could my lawyer transfer me to another place while I was here.

That is the difficulty that I came through until I heard about the Truth Commission and I hope and I have this wish that the Truth Commission can help me investigate this matter. The people involved are Viljoen and April and this other one April who witnessed the electrocution of my son. I would appreciate it if they come to the court and tell exactly what they did to him. If my child is alive, please bring him back. If he is dead, still okay, let them

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bring him back and then I will be bury him.

He had children and the eldest one is doing Std 9. The other two are staying with the granny because their mother cannot afford them. Every time these children need something they come to me.

MR MANTHATA: We have listened to your evidence. You have tried your best really. Your emotions fit exactly the initiatives you took. What was the reason behind the inquest they wanted in court? Were they telling you that they would investigate what killed him or didn't they know his whereabouts? What was actually happening? Did they want to give you a death certificate so that you may forget?

MR THLAPI: I think it was their plan that the Attorney-General should release a statement and maybe they thought that I would not be able to speak and then they would shift the blame.

MR MANTHATA: Is Viljoen still employed within the police services?

MR THLAPI: The information that I have got was that he was discharged from the police services. But rumours had it that he is still working.

MR MANTHATA: But is he still employed as a police, is he still around in your area, in Klerksdorp?

MR THLAPI: Viljoen resides in Potchefstroom. I heard that he resides at Modderdam. When you are taking the Johannesburg road, there is a cross road. Then you will take the Potchefstroom road and along the way you will see a sign Modderdam, that is where he stays.

MR MANTHATA: Are you referring to Viljoen?

MR THLAPI: Yes.

MR MANTHATA: What about April?

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MR THLAPI: Together with Mr Celesela we went to April's house for an interview. I took initiatives on many occasions to go to his house, to beg him to tell us a bit of information that he had. Because we knew in the past he wouldn't say anything. As a policeman he wouldn't leak out information. Then we decided to go to his house to beg him to give us a little piece of information. The first thing he told me was, he said today I am in trouble. This was not done in camera, we didn't even have secret tape-recorders. He said to us there is a man in the Cape who wanted to tell the truth and he died, and today, as April, I am in a pool of problems. The people like Viljoen are far from me now. And he told me that that was my last time to set foot in hvs house.

MR MANTHATA: Was it April?

MR THLAPI: Yes, that was April.

MR MANTHATA: Is he still in Klerksdorp?

MR THLAPI: Yes, he is still stays in Klerksdorp.

MR MANTHATA: I don't have further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Prof Piet Meiring?

PROF MEIRING: You said that there are three children of your son. How old are they?

MR THLAPI: The boy who is staying with me, approximately he is 16 years.

PROF MEIRING: And the other two?

MR THLAPI: The other two I am not able to say, but they might be around, around 12 years or 13 years, and the other one between 11 and 12.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you. The other two, are they staying with their mother?

MR THLAPI: Yes, the other two they are staying with their

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mother. This elder one he was taken by, he was married by a certain lady from Carletonville. Then they divorced and then this son used to stay at my place. When the grandfather died then this son came to me. So the father, when he left, when the father was arrested. So the son was eight years, eight years old.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much. We have the picture now. Thank you, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Fazel Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Thlapi, I am sure this is a very painful experience for you to be relating to us, and I will try to make it as short as possible. I just want to know, you said when you went to Stilfontein police station with Mr Strauss, they read out the names of nine people, and they were all from Itateng. You have the names of those people?

MR THLAPI: The question is, do I know the names of the people? Yes, I have the names of those people.

DR RANDERA: We thank you for that. I just want to again clarify names of people you mentioned. You mentioned Mr Sitish Rupa and Mr Ichbal Motala, whom I know are from this region. You mentioned Mr Krish Naidoo as another lawyer. You mention Sally Celi from the Independent board, who again is working elsewhere. We will be following up from her. I just want the name of the magistrate. Do you remember the name of the magistrate?

MR THLAPI: I don't remember the surname of the magistrate who was handling the case. The person who would know is Mr Motala.

DR RANDERA: You also said that the magistrate was referring the inquest report to the Attorney-General's office. Which office was that, the Johannesburg one or the Pretoria one,

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do you know?

MR THLAPI: According to my lawyers, they told me the papers go to the Attorney-General. They didn't tell me which town is that, if it is Johannesburg or Pretoria, I am not sure. I was just waiting to hear from the lawyer to say that the papers have come, the answer has come, it says this and that.

DR RANDERA: Mr Thlapi, there are two more questions. The one is just for you, to tell us something about, I think you referred to him as Boytjie, if I can also call him Boytjie Thlapi. How involved was he in the political structures in Ikageng at that time?

MR THLAPI: This person was very quiet and always at home. I only realised as a father that when the police were telling us to reprimand our children, you would reprimand in the house and the child would not make the father aware that what he is doing outside. On the 20th when they were arrested, the younger brother, when we heard that Boytjie has been arrested, is when they arrived at home. Then they went to his books. They were taking the other books, they were taking them, there was a plank which the one used to polish. He drew a fisted hand and he used to varnish that. I didn't know what the meaning of that hand was. I only realised later that this man was something or something in the political organisation.

DR RANDERA: The last question is, you said earlier on when you were talking to Mr Manthata that when George was released - George was one of the men who was arrested with your son, he said to you that he was released because he indicated where the petrol bombs were. Did I hear you rightly?

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MR THLAPI: George has said that the entrance, the room where he was electrocuted, there were petrol bombs put in that room.

DR RANDERA: Oh, sorry, my mistake. Thank you very much.

PROSECUTOR: Mr Thlapi, thank you very much for coming and giving the testimony that you have. We see a lot of people in grief and experiencing anguish, but as I have said earlier on today, there is a special anguish that goes with a disappearance. It is just that uncertainty, not knowing what is the actual position. Your testimony again exemplified that. The response and the emotions of your wife were quite clear, underscoring that point. I have also said earlier that there are particular difficulties attached to disappearances.

However, in your case it is slightly different, in the sense that your son was last in the custody of the police. Obviously answers must be forthcoming from them, in regard to what happened to your son. You have also fortunately taken quite a number of steps in the meantime to try and ascertain the whereabouts of your son and to try and ascertain what happened to him. We can build on that basis. We have got a lot of information to go on, we have got a lot of references to people, professionals. There is the inquest, so there is a lot that we can look at and try and ascertain what the position is. We will do exactly that, we will look into all of these records and we will have to liaise with you as we go along. But thank you once again for coming.

Your wife as been removed from the podium. She is obviously taking it very badly. We would advise you to speak to the briefers when they take you out. They will

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inform you about the condition of your wife. I thank you.

MR THLAPI: I thank you, Sir.

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