CHAIRPERSON: May I know if Tuwani Mudau is here? Aida Netshakhuma? Okay. We shall now proceed and call Makhuvha Ndouvhada.

Welcome Mr Ndouvhada. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

MR NDOUVHADA: They seemingly have a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear me now?

MR NDOUVHADA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I will hand you over to Dr Randera to take the oath and Dr Russel will lead the proceedings.

DR RANDERA: Mr Ndouvhada, good afternoon. Can you please stand to take the oath. If you will just repeat after me.

MAKHUVHA NDOUVHADA: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR RANDERA: Dr Ally.

DR ALLY: Good day to you Sir and welcome. Thank you for coming. You are going to speak about an event that took place in 1990. An event which almost lead to your death where you were accused of witchcraft. I want you to just go through these events for us and just explain to us what happened to you and why it was you think these things happened to you.

MR NDOUVHADA: It was on Thursday evening, I went to my brother. There were some drinks going on there. It was towards seven. As we were seated there, we were drinking liesurely. There were people at the same time, who had gone to my house. They broke into the house and went in. They said to my son's wife we want the old man. And she was not able to open for them. They just went away because they knew where I had gone to. They overheard me speaking on the other side and they kept quiet.

This youth arrived and said to me Mushari. You have been called, please go. And I went out, I could not realise that there were some people outside. As I went to the gate they were on me. They were singing some songs and they took me. They kept on saying, you are a witch, you are a witch, you are a witch, you are depending on witchcraft. I said, are you referring to me. They said, yes. I did not know, I did not recognise anybody there.

They took me to another house. They took my wife at Malima. We went to another house, belonging to Matilimo's. They took another old lady. My son arrived. They were still singing, the youth were still singing. I was told, Baba, please do not resist, just go along with them.

I agreed to that and I was taken to the chief's kraal. The chief was around. There was no other person - I could not recognise anybody because I was so worried. I was accused of being a witch. As we were there, these young boys had left. Now the Police had already arrived by then. When they arrived they said well we are now leaving. We want you to escape now. I resisted, but I was just putting on my vest. They took me to the van. Well I was taken to the Police station. When they left, it was during the time when I had to take statement. As I said before, I could not recognise any young person there because there were so many of them. As we were sitting there, my wife brought my jacket and they said your son will be coming. When my son arrived there was function, and I mean is there a function and I was asked to go there, because the elderly people were not there. My son said I was going to be taken and then I will go back. The Police was on guard and some few people and some elderly women. I went along with them. We went back home.

My son and his brothers were together and then they were busy on the function. They were asked to tell the story, or relate. They only said we are only learning from these people that our father is a witch. We do not know the historical background about his witchcraft. We have been living with our father for so long, we can only say we can order the old man to go back home. Well, after the function, on Monday, I was asked to go back to the Police station. That other son of mine had said he was not going to come back and when reading the paper it was said I was not going to leave. And it was said there will have to be a coming back the following day. But unfortunately it was feared that I could be killed there. My sons came and they took me and that is where I am still at home now. There was no other trouble since. That is all I can say. Thank you. No more.

DR ALLY: Thank you. This accusation of you being a witch, do you have any idea why they would have made that accusation? Why do you think?

MR NDOUVHADA: Truly, it really pained me in such a manner that I even thought maybe it is because the council at the chief's place were saying I was not really in line with how the decisions were taken at the chief's kraal, especially when it comes to fines because maybe I was suggesting otherwise. I do not know any other thing with reference to that.

DR ALLY: Were you a member of the council at the chief's kraal?

MR NDOUVHADA: Yes, I was a member. I am referring to, I am not referring to the (...indistinct) one, I am referring to the one smaller one that used to be around, not the one that (...indistinct)

MR NDOUVHADA: And this council that you were a member of can you tell us a little bit about this council? How was this council established and who were the members?

MR NDOUVHADA: We were twelve men in that council or committee. There was a secretary. I was, if at all I was not there the deputy will take over. The rest were just people who would be able to take the case through.

DR ALLY: And what did this council do? What were its functions?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, especially when there were cases, that is where the council was responsible.

DR ALLY: What kind of cases?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well theft or assault. If at all the council was not able to solve that it had to go to the other senior committee or council.

DR ALLY: And do you think that people were perhaps unhappy with your role in that council and that is why they accused you of being a witch?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well I cannot say that. Well, I just think it could be about that. Maybe, when I was charging people, I was mistaken. Because we were just given the responsibility aand accountability to do that nothing else. That is how it was.

DR ALLY: So when people were fined our found quilty and they were charged, what was the usual kind of sentence? Was it a fine, did they have to pay money?

MR NDOUVHADA: Usually it used to be a fine and it had to be written down. Then the secretary would take that money to the chief's kraal so that it could be known that on such and such a date this is how much was paid.

DR ALLY: And what was the attitude of the youth, of the young people to these councils, because you say that those who came to your house singing songs, were youth? In your statement you say, young comrades. Do you have any idea of how they felt about these councils that you sat on and that was at the chief's kraal?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, I cannot tell whether it had to do with the chief. But when I was taken to the other kraal these other people were told but I was not told anything about my being accused as a witch. Maybe when they came to me they just said I had to be taken.

DR ALLY: In your statement you say the following thing. You say that when they came and they accused you of being a witch and they took you away, one of the things they said was, "witchcraft was singled out as an extension of oppression in the area where I lived". Can you just explain a little bit what you understand by that, witchcraft was an extension of oppression?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, I cannot say it was an extension of the oppression to the people, because I used to thatch houses and they said I was using zombies to thatch the houses or the huts. Because I was very given to that. And they said, no, you are using zombies. That is how they told me, these youth, as they were singing the song. There was some other people who were pushing me over. Well as I was worried, I was resisting too.

DR ALLY: And you yourself, do you believe that there is something like witchcraft?

MR NDOUVHADA: Yes, well according to me. Not in me. I do not know anything about witchcraft.

DR ALLY: No, I am not asking whether you are a witch. I am asking do you believe that there is such a thing as witchcraft?

MR NDOUVHADA: I do not believe.

DR ALLY: You don't believe there's witchcraft.

MR NDOUVHADA: No I don't, I haven't seen such a thing. I do not believe in that. I just hear people say there's witchcraft. I haven't seen even a witch.

DR ALLY: And now after all of these events, what is your relationship like with the young people in the area where you live?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, we remained well, since I came back. Even if I did not recognise them, I know we are relating well. Generally there is no problem.

DR ALLY: And there's been no more accusations of witchcraft?

MR NDOUVHADA: You mean subsequent to that?

DR ALLY: Subsequent to that yes, you have never been accused again after this incident?

MR NDOUVHADA: No, there was no other accusation.

DR ALLY: And the council that you used to serve on, is this council still in existence, do you still serve on this council?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, I was ordered by the Police not to go there. I was given some standing orders that if it is before sunset I do not have to move around and I am no longer drinking. That is how I was ordered. I used to drink.

DR ALLY: And now presently, what do you do?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, I do not do anything at the moment. I have poor visibility.

DR ALLY: And from the Truth Commission, what is it that you expect? Is there any request that you want to put to the Commission? Your reason for coming to the Commission, can you tell us a little bit about that?

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, my coming here. You know these people, these statement takers just came to me and I did not have much to say about it. They just said well, you better go to the Truth Commission. Just tell us something about what you experienced with the youth. I just told them. I could not even recognise the people. I even said that at the charge office. So I just stick to how I experience it.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

MR NDOUVHADA: Well, I never thought it will ever be a big issue again.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Was there any political activity taking place in your area in 1990, which may have made the youth take action against you, or want to take action against you?

MR NDOUVHADA: I only remember the very same incident. I do not know of any other.

DR RANDERA: There was not any unrest in the area, there was no boycotts, there was nothing else going on?

MR NDOUVHADA: No, because I am afraid I can lie.

DR RANDERA: Do you consider yourself to be lucky that you got away that time?

MR NDOUVHADA: I cannot say I was lucky. Well, I just know that is how it happened, because nobody is saying another things subsequent to that.

DR RANDERA: I just want to remind ourselves that in another incident in this area, and I am not saying that this could have happened to you, but in the village of Njelele, which is apparently thirty kilometres from Louis Trichardt, a young woman, a pregnant woman, who had broken the consumer boycott, was made to drink the paint that she had actually gone to buy from the town. And she actually died subsequently. So there have been instances like that. She had to drink it, yes.

I just want to ask my last question. Do you know of any instance, in either you village or close by, where a person who has been accused of being a witch has been burned to death or killed?

MR NDOUVHADA: In my area I do not remember of a single incident. I think there were four of us who were taken for - I do not remember anybody who was banned.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Makhuvha Ndouvhada, thank you so much for coming. I think you are a very lucky man to have escaped death and you must thank the Venda Police for having saved your life. Witchcraft is one of those inexplainable myths that we are still struggling to understand in our culture. There is not much we can say about it, but we are happy that you are alive today to tell the story. I just wanted to find out, if you receive any state pension at the moment?

MR NDOUVHADA: Not at all.

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